Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Hawksley Workman Kicks Out the Jams: Toronto Mike'd #825

Episode Date: March 29, 2021

Mike and Ralph Benmergui chat with Hawksley Workman before he kicks out the jams.

Welcome to episode 825 of Toronto Mic'd, a weekly podcast about anything and everything. Proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, a fiercely independent craft brewery who believes in supporting communities, good times and brewing amazing beer. Order online for free local home delivery in the GTA. CDN Technologies, your outsourced IT department. Contact Barb. She's Barb at cdntechnologies.com. Palma Pasta. Enjoy the taste of fresh homemade Italian pasta and entrees from Palma Pasta in Mississauga and Oakville. and entrees from Palma Pasta in Mississauga and Oakville. StickerU.com. Create custom stickers, labels, tattoos, and decals for your home and your business.

Ridley Funeral Home. Pillars of the community since 1921. And Mike Majeski, or as I call him, Mimico Mike. He's the real estate agent who's ripping up the Mimico real estate scene. Learn more at realestatelove.ca. I'm Mike from torontomike.com, and joining me to kick out the jams is Hawksley Workman and our rabbi, Ralph Ben-Murgy.

Welcome, guys. 825 shows, Mike. Congratulations. I thought that was the 825 sponsors, but I'm getting confused. That's what I thought. I love it. Okay, so where do I begin? Let me start quickly.

I felt like that. Firstly, actually, Ralph, let me start with you and just say happy Passover to you. Thank you. We had our two Passover seders on the weekend. It's much more convenient on the weekend. One with a local synagogue I belong to and one with my family, which was chaotic as it always is when we're in person. But, uh, yeah, it is our, uh, I guess it's the Jewish Christmas Passover because you, you get together with family and you eat and your mother stares at you and thinks, what is wrong with him? You know, so it has that whole vibe. And this is your second. Is this the second Passover on Zoom, essentially?

Like this is your second. Yeah, yeah. Last year we tried to do it and it was a bit of a mess. But this year it was actually really good. We had a really, really nice time. Nice, nice. mess, but this year it was actually really good. We had a really nice time. Nice, nice. And of course, hopefully if all goes according to plan,

next Passover you can all get together again and do it upright. As Tommy Hunter would say, the good Lord will and... Speaking of Tommy Hunter, I think the modern day Tommy Hunter might be Hawksley Workman here. Hawksley Hunter.

But before I say hi to Hawks, twoman here. Here we go. Hawksley Hunter. But before I say hi to Hawk, two things that I just noticed on the Zoom here. One is that you've got a new, it's new to you, but a piano behind you, which I never saw before. But also you got like cool lights, like there's Northern lights going on back there.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you know, you sign in with a rock and roll guy on your Zoom show and if I just showed up willy-nilly like I didn't care and this wasn't a big part of my sort of normal atmosphere, you might start to question the official narrative. Rock and roll. He must live a life where there's always lights like this going on in the background.

And that's true, Mike. This is exactly how we live. Bono's exactly the same. Robert Plant, this is his bathroom. This is what it looks like. I like to think that if we did a modern day Northern Lights, like I'm referring to Tears Are Not Enough, you'd be in.

Would you get a solo or would you be one of those trios they put together? I'd get a solo. Wow, Mike, man. You know, I did... When we did the Canons – Wave and flag. Wave and flag. And then we redid it for a charity at the time, which I look back now and I just remember how sick I was when I went in to do it with Bob Ezrin.

I'll help you. Haitian earthquake relief. Thank you. Okay. Bob Ezrin. Yeah. You must know Bob. Actually, he's from my old hood, and his sister was in my grade.

Oh, is that right? We used to go to their house where they had a grand piano for madrigal choir practice, where the eight-piece madrigal vocal choir. That's funny. And he would just sort of drift by like, whatever. I'm already becoming an incredibly well-known producer I was close with Bob for a little while in there was a stage in my career right he was I think trying to work his way back into the music

business and I had the music business thought they were sick and tired of me and thought we need to hand this guy off to somebody who was gonna get him and they thought Bob Ezrin might so we we communicated for a while he's a lovely guy actually boy that's a horrible music industry story well you mean it should have ended all about how terrible he is or no no just like he's trying to get back in your record people are saying yeah you go go with him and meanwhile all this talent and wonderfulness right oh that's lost in the shuffle but that's how the industry works i know i know that's but it's just so sad because really the people making the music are are you know soulful magicians they're doing wonderful work right so well i could go on i could wax further mike's got mike's got the hand

the teacher going okay class i want to uh i'm gonna give you guys a pop quiz do either of you two fine gentlemen remember the number of the last episode you both appeared on on toronto mike together tanzania what is tanzania, Mike? Do you know Hawk? No, I don't. You didn't get a tattoo? You're close. Okay, so 727. I'm just going to let the listenership know that today, Hawksley Workman is kicking out the jams,

and Ralph and I will react until Ralph goes to a better gig or whatever. But I want to let them know that last time you guys were on with me uh ralph ben murgy kicked out the jams and then hawk and i reacted and that was episode 727 so people can go and uh listen pause right now go listen to that and this is like the sequel and i was so like i like the chemistry with you guys so i've been thinking for months like i gotta get those two cool cats back together on toronto mike i like

this so here we are yeah so what happens next does hawk start spinning the tunes here well first i read a couple of notes from like listeners who heard you were coming on like jonathan torrens for example the uh the big canadian star i love that guy too fot FOTM, Jonathan Torrance says, on midday, Ralph and Valerie Pringle had the best chemistry in Canadian TV history. She was my TV wife. She taught me a lot too when I went on that show because I'd not done current affairs TV and reading the teleprompter

and doing an interview where you are re, uh, enacting your part of the interview because it was recorded on a phone and you had to go into the studio and that she, I just, what do I do? And she had all these wonderful tips.

It was like broadcast news and she was William Hurd telling me how to sit on the back of my jacket. It was great. I love Valerie. She was a wonderful person to work with. Hawk, did you watch, uh,

your fair share of midday back in the day? I saw it. Yeah. I mean, I love Valerie. She was a wonderful person to work with. Hawk, did you watch your fair share of Midday back in the day? I saw it, yeah. I mean, I saw it. I relate to it because when I would be home sick from school, there was a whole atmosphere of television I'd be exposed to, and that was it. And I remember it feeling very free and alive, like it was a living television show.

And this is, I think, from an era of TV where they sort of let things be a little bit more alive. That's, I just remember it feeling like a joyful show, like the two of you truly enjoyed each other and the joy was a part of the atmosphere of that TV show. And we had, there was no network current affairs show at noon anywhere in the country. It wasn't, there was no 24 hour news channel when I got on there. It started once I was there, but we didn't have the glut of, you know, look over here,

another disaster show, you know? Well, since we're talking midday, Nora Valentina, that's a beautiful name. Nora Valentina says, I was a big fan of midday.

I remember my dad and I going to St. Stephen, New Brunswick to watch a live midday show. I went to the Apple Blossom Parade. One year, Ralph was Parade Marshal! I remember that tweet because I actually had to learn

that you have to wave to both sides at the same time when you're in the car going across because there's people on either side of the sidewalk. So if you look one way, you're ignoring the people on this side so i at first i would do that and then i'd spin back and some somebody would be looking like he doesn't even look at us so i learned to sort of do the hi right stay in the middle hi little pivot i love that you were the marshal of that parade like that i know i was touched. Believe me. A nice Moroccan Jewish boy gets to be the parade marshal at the Apple Blossom Festival.

Wow. The height of white Canada. I dug it. So Toronto Mike has a question for you, Ralph. When is Valerie Pringle coming on Not That Kind of Rabbi? That's actually a good idea. That's a great idea. I'm going to do that.

You know why I'm going to hop off on this one at a certain point? Because my next not that kind of rabbi is Alan Doyle. Oh my gosh, from Great Big Sea. Okay, so here's how Bob Ezrin fits in. So Alan Doyle did an album with FOTM Splashin' Boots. I don't know if you guys know Splashin' Boots, but they record music like for young kids. Like even my kids have kind of outgrown it now, but they loved it for a while. So Splashin' Boots did an album with Alan Doyle, which I think won a Juno, actually. And Splashin' Boots, via a connection from Bob Ezrin, had the great Alice Cooper on their most recent album.

So Alice Cooper did a song with Splashin' Boots thanks to Bob Ezrin's connection. And Alan Doyle also did an album with Splashin' Boots. And that's my story. I'll throw that in, big guy. Yeah, I met Alice Cooper at a June Awards that was inducting Bob into the Worldwide Canadian Music Hall of Fame.

And I said to Alice Cooper that I had played Only Women Bleed in church on piano because as a kid, the lyrics, I didn't really have a sense of what they did or didn't mean it's just it sounded like a somber piece of piano music and when I was asked to sing in church I was like well I can pull this one up pretty easy and I remember telling Alice that and he reminded me that that was more the work of Bob Ezrin that that that song that I think I think any of the piano balladry that you hear on anything Bob worked on, including

like, Beth, I hear you calling. I think Bob's whole thing was, dudes, you guys are doing dude rock just great, but we need something for the ladies to sway to. So we all need, I think he was the one who invented the hard rock power ballad. I think Bob Ezrin

can be, it can all go back to him. Wow, fantastic. I figured it was Led can be, it can all go back to him. Wow. Fantastic. I figured it was Led Zeppelin with, you know, Stairway to Heaven. Cause that always got the slow dance until it, you know,

until it blew up there. Okay. So I know Ralph does have an early exit, so we're going to get to these jams ASAP. But while we have Ralph and then Hawk, we'll talk a little on the end. Cause I want to find out what you're up to these days. Cause we all want to know everything that's going on with you. But while we have Ralph and then Hawk, we'll talk a little on the end, because I want to find out what you're up to these days, because we all want to know everything that's going on with you.

But Ralph, is there any other than the fantastic podcast, Not That Kind of Rabbi, which everyone listening should be subscribed to? Just pause it, go to your podcatcher, look for Not That Kind of Rabbi with Ralph Ben-Murgi and subscribe right now. What else is going on in the world of Ralph?

I've got another podcast I'm doing for the Canadian Jewish News, CJN, which fell apart about a year and a half ago and has been revived in a beautiful way. They just came out with a hard copy magazine for the Passover, and they'll do another one in a few months. I have an article in there on spiritual but not religious, which is a whole category of human beings now. I'm doing my spiritual, I guess I'd call it spiritual coaching, spiritual counseling. I do that. I have a bunch of clients and always want to expand that

and talk to more people so people can get in touch with me on my email address, ralphbenmergey at gmail.com. And the CJN podcast is called Jehopitzville. So when you say somebody went out to the middle of nowhere, you say, oh, they went to Jehopitzville. But ironically, that's the actual opposite of what it was intended to mean, which was you went from nowhere to the big city of Krakow in Poland, apparently, and that was going to Yehupitsville. So it got turned around, but that's the title we decided to do.

I believe this to be true because I heard this from Mark Wiseblood, who I think would know of it. I believe that the inspiration for that title is Mark Hebbshire. I believe this is an expression he uses on the reg, as the kids say, on his podcast, Hebbsy on Sports. And I think it inspired, like, Wise Blah in you.

I think that helped inspire. I could be wrong of my origin story. Yeah, the original title was Oi, Canada, which I liked. But then Wise Blah came up with that, and I thought, that's even better. So it's all good. No, it's all good. And shout out to Hebbsy here. Okay, so guys uh Zoom kind of sucks for playing music by the way but uh it doesn't

matter because you're gonna hear enough of it to know what I'm doing and then I'm gonna fade it down a bit and that's when we want to hear from uh from you uh who's kicking it out Hawk I gotta keep my uh notes here so we're gonna dive right in so we get more Ben Murgey on the jams and then Hawk on the other end. You and I are going to catch up a little bit if that's cool. Yeah, yeah.

You ready for your first... Actually, no. Let me phrase it properly. Hawksley Workman, are you ready to kick out the jams? I'm ready. I will say really quickly this is the kind of thing

that people like me find very exciting. Put down your songs and let's talk about the songs you like. This is the kind of thing that people like me find very exciting. Put down your songs and let's talk about the songs you like. This is the kind of thing that's very up my alley. I will say that I've chosen music that it kind of takes in the time frame of the minute I was able to buy music with my own money to about I was 18. So it's, you know, like I would say 10 years of eight years old to 18. This kind of, this is what I was, and this is sort of your biggest, your dominant influences, cultural influences.

This is the time that it happens. This is when you get, your fabric is, it's on the loom and you're sewing in your, the external influences as you go. So that's what this is. So I'll ask you one more time, Mr. Workman. Yes. Are you ready to kick out the jams? Absolutely.

Toronto Mike. I said you wanna be starting something You got to be starting something I said you wanna be starting something You got to be starting something But you had to get over Yeah, yeah You're too low to get under Yeah, yeah You're stuck in the middle Yeah, yeah A little MJ for Hawksley. You gave it away, Mike.

It's an obscure track. All right, talk to us, Hawk. Why did you choose Wannabe Starting Something by Michael Jackson? I feel like this is the first so my dad is was still is fanatical for singles and i think we discussed this when when when we were on with ralph before my dad would always prefer to buy the 45 than the album he likes the hits he doesn't need to go deep on stuff so in our house um the first inkling i had of of michael

jackson i believe to be starting something was the first single off of Thriller. It came into our house as a 45. And I remember it just, the power of all that groove, of all of that highly rhythmic vocal, vocalizing, like for a seven year old kid,

like it flipped me out. This is, I knew this is all I needed. It was all I was ever going to need. And it was blasting out at me at a perfect time in my life where I was ready to receive. The zeitgeist was tuning right into me. What do you think of his first selection, Mr. Ben-Murgy?

I dig it. I mean, when I was a kid, the Jackson 5 was the thing, right? You know, the family band, the Osmond brothers, the Osmond family, all that stuff. But the Jackson 5, you couldn't help but be pulled to Michael, right? It was just like, who is this kid? And he just had it. But this and Thriller and Quincy Jones

and all these pieces that come together. It's like Motown meets pop music from the white side as well, oddly enough. And together that groove, that whole album is about the groove. So this song is just another one of those brilliant pieces. Always conflicted about MJ, right? Because of the personal history but i also feel really bad for the kind of life he led as a kid and the way he was kind of brutalized into show

business and really lost his childhood and spent the rest of his life i think desperately seeking that childhood so but in this album it all comes together for him in a way i don't think it ever did before or after. Yeah, Hawk, I'm thinking of your old man having to buy the 45s. He must have bought like seven 45s from this album. Like this is all hits. He eventually just bought the album. The next step was to just buy the vinyl because I think at that point it was like, oh, I get the sense there's going to be a lot of hits coming off this.

We may as well just own the whole damn thing. But yeah. And, you know, I think about what Ralph said too about this kid, this brutalized kid in showbiz. Like when I hear, now baby, give me one more chance.

He's a 10 year old kid singing that. It's the voice of an old, old, ancient being that is coming out of that kid. And kids at that age don't usually, are not able to sing

quite that in tune with that kind of adult passion. What was coming out of him from a very young age? I mean, it's obvious he's built a little bit differently, you know? Yeah. And no, he had the magic. There's no doubt about that. But, you know, I don't know how you guys feel about kid performers i i i sort of jump to once their adolescence is finished they're going to be like what do i do now

yeah you know which most of the time is true in some cases it isn't but you know ron howard survived being opie on you know andy of mayberry but uh most just do it and they're done yeah yeah justin bateman also he survived being a kid actor you know jason but jason who did i say justin yeah but his sister is actually justine that's where that's where you're getting conflated there thank god you're here michael that's my only role in this episode i think but i will yeah i will say great exception to that of course is the uh ste Wonder, right, who was huge. I don't know what he was. Little Stevie Wonder.

Little Stevie Wonder. And he had a number one, I think, with Fingerprints Part 2 or whatever they called that song. But he was like 14 or 15 or something. And he wrote all his early hits with his mom, which I love. He did? Yeah. Yes.

Wow. Yeah. He looks confident. I wrote almost none of my hits with my mother, which is really quite phenomenal when you think about her talent, really. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to let... This is a great finish here, and then we're going to go into jam number two here,

so I'll just turn it up a bit. I love it. There's some big band in there, too, you know. I mean, Jones wrote some of the best big band music there was. So those horn sections, fantastic. Big time. All right, here's jam number two for The Hawk. guitar solo It was an April morning When they told us we should go And as I turned to you, you smiled at me

How could we say no? Oh, the fun to have To live the dreams we've always had Oh, the songs to sing When we at last turn again Led Zeppelin! Wow, John Bonham, man. Yep.

Crushing it. Don't you think? I mean, insane. Oh, my God. How do you do that on tour? I don't know if there's been any one single musician that's had a greater influence on me than John Bonham or Led Zeppelin in general.

To me, so Michael Jackson and Led Zeppelin to me when I look at like the watershed moments in music that I loved as a kid Led Zeppelin was the official departure from me having anything to do with my dad's music and my dad had a vast collection of Motown and he loved piano pop music we had a great collection of stuff. But Led Zeppelin was the first time that this was the indication that I was going my own way. My dad wasn't a hard rock guy. We didn't have rock albums in the house per se. So this was me really finding my own thing.

As a kid too, I had a disco duck record player. And I remember playing Come Together by the Beatles. It was a 45 that I'd play at 33 that it would sound slow, and I could feel the evil in it. I could feel the evil intensity. When you slowed it down, it got more evil. And I think that just in terms of having your feelers out for dark energy when you're a kid,

like Zeppelin was oozing with dark energy. And I think when i was like i may have been 10 11 12 when this music was coming into my life like i could honestly feel as this like well-raised teacher pleasing kid from rural ontario that this music was touching into a vein in a world that i didn't belong to, but obviously that well of evil is quite, you know, it's beguiling for any human, especially when you're a kid. So this music to me was like, wow, okay,

darkness is out there, and I'm about to embark on my own sort of, my own journey. This is me doing me. And I'm paying the price. This was a $10 case set that I bought myself. You know what I mean? So this is a schooling I'm setting myself up for you know the whole idea at the time was

power bands right minimal instrumentation maximum power so that but there was such a difference between something like the who and zeppelin are not the same beast in any way totally right you've got quadrophenia from the who but you've got Zeppelin 2 which is I think their best album but I remember my my best friend Mike Topalovich came home uh to his place and said I got a new album you gotta come over so I hopped out of the apartment and ran over to his house and uh wow I just couldn't believe it it was just insanity because the first album was just blew your mind but the second album just it all comes together and you know what i found is my album four i was like yeah i don't know i kind of get it but i'm moving on so maybe it's four had all those monster hits for us uh primary school kids

because you had black dog and rock and roll and stairway to heaven and going to california like i know but by then i sort of zeppel'd out. But the second album, when it first came out, was so fresh and so great. It's interesting because for me, it came to me as a master collection. Zeppelin didn't put out any records. Well, they would have put out their last couple while I was under the age of five, maybe.

So for me, I absorbed it like the encyclopedia of rock like it's like you had to take it in as a whole like there was no like oh i'm going to assess each album as they're released and i can have that relationship with that artist it's you you have that relationship in artists that you are timely with but i think as a kid for me this was like this is the university of rock you're either you either do the full course load or you're out you know and it's like zeppelin is a full course load type band in a way what do you think of jimmy page well i mean as a sloppy yet speedy guitar player myself i like appreciate the fact that he's in all ideas all boozy all destruction all the time like to me a big part of when i look at music and I look at like

the archetypes that were set up in the 1960s these these were archetypes that would stand the test of popular music for several decades to come and what you had was a new array of archetypes in Zeppelin I think you had destruction at a high level self-destruction at a high level but you had musicianship at levels never heard before in rock music like it was it was such an audacious enterprise on every front that that's I think why critics hated them for so long it's like you can't just walk into the room and like destroy the furniture in the whole house like you know Zeppelin wasn I think, they walked in and rewrote the rules at several levels. And I think that's, you know, their energy thing is so big. And I think, too, like, as a kid who I was also a kid

who was practicing and I was looking for virtuosos to emulate and to idolize. And Zeppelin just offers, like, it's like your first step into the world of virtuosic rock and roll musicianship and it's it's a smorgasbord because like who do you want to like john paul jones arguably one of the greatest rock and roll bassists of all times jimmy page one of the archetypal greatest guitar players of all times john bonham arguably the greatest rock drummer ever to live that ever will live designed a template for rock drumming that will continue to be followed forevermore.

He was like a thundering herd, John Bond. When you see some of his solos pulled apart, his love for Buddy Rich is another thing that's not talked about quite. Like he is Buddy Rich with just booze and muscle and in a different musical lane. That's all he is. We haven't yet named the track, though, Hawk. I would say it's a deeper cut.

Like, if you aren't listening to the Zeppelin albums, you might not know this song. Like, what is this track called? Well, Achilles' Last Stand, is that what it is? Yes. Yes. You should know. It's your jam.

Yeah, so, you know, I think the other thing is is that I was a kid, kid too that, I mean, even like, you know, I come from humble roots and, but I was under the impression that the world was vast and wild and exciting. And as a rural Ontario kid, you know, I couldn't have maybe been put at a more boring starting line, but things that set like for me is so i'm eight or nine years old i hear a song that sounds like this and it's called achilles last stand i also had older friends who were like fascinated by you know you know the wars that had happened in the world i had i was really lucky i

was one of those kids i'm an older brother but i had older people associated to babysitters and stuff that i had that were like dropping little hints that like the world was vast there was a lot to know and I had an older brother type character who breathed to me that like this Achilles guy he's a for real dude like Achilles shit is for real this music is for real like when you're eight and nine it's like Achilles like what the who is this like what is all this it's a lot it's a lot especially for me i was ready to do some heavy lifting i was ready to unpack some things like i was that's just the kind of kid i was you know so for me this this had all the requisite darkness but it also had this like there's a there's a there's a pool of greater knowledge that lives

in this song allegedly and that's what you could feel when you're nine years old. Wow. Now the song is about I don't know 11 minutes or something like that it's a long one here so I'm gonna if it's cool with you if I truncate it is that sacrilegious? I don't know what the rules are here I usually don't do that. Even that section where they're like I mean this was the beginning like how much speed metal? Like, what did that one section of this song give birth to? Like, you know, it felt like that one section of this song gave birth to a whole genre of music. Well, including Huxley Workman's music, probably.

Probably. Yeah, I thought about Rush took it and put tighter pants on it. Yeah, exactly. That's right. With the mythology, you're right. I love those guys, but I've never been a fan of Rush's music. So for me, this is like, no, no, slow it down, take the pants, loosen them up, and you'll have the right sound.

You ready for your third jam, Hawk? Sure. Oh, it's the same thing. It's coming. It's coming. Hiya. Thank you. Hawk, what are we listening to here? I'm going to let Ralph take this one. No, no, no. I want you to start.

Chick Corea and the Electric Band got a match. Chick Corea. I know. As I'm listening to this, I'm like, where do I go with this? Do I talk about how short-changed the Grammys did him on recognition in their Everybody Who Died section of their show this year? Was he not in that memorial? He wasn't in that montage?

He was in the memorial. He just wasn't memorialized significantly enough to my – I mean, he won 25-plus Grammys. Like, I mean... No surprise. No surprise. Jazz is sort of... Look over here in the dark corner,

and you may find the jazz nominees for this year. In Junos, in Grammys, in everything. But Correa, you know, what an interesting guy, right? I mean, Scientology was a big part of his life. But he had a joyfulness. Everybody who played with that guy was just better for it and happier for it. And he knew how to move through the genres the way the greats in jazz have done. Miles Davis moved through the genres.

He moved through the genres. You know, Herbie Hancock, all of them, they get it. Especially these keyboard guys, they really get it. But what a lovely sound sound i love it yeah so did you when you were we're talking about 8 to 18 where in that span did you figure out chick korea at 14 15 i started to work at huntsville electronics and huntsville electronics was a radio shack sam the record man satellite dish dealership hi-fi store in downtown huntsville so i got like i had a summer job that gave me access to catalogs where i whereby i would so at this point i'm like

determined to become an extraordinary drummer and so now i'm seeking out okay rock music is not giving me what i need i graduated from neil peart i graduated from john bonham i graduated from these guys and so now i was buying records based on the rhythm sections. And so I was following up on Dave Weckl and I was buying anything that Dave Weckl was playing on at the time, who was this extraordinary super drummer who took what the evolution that Steve Gadd had kind of built on and then had hyper blown it up. So you had this super drummer. Drums didn't get exciting again until very recently with drummers like Mark Giuliana and Joe Jomeir who were like rebuilding an old enterprise with drumming.

So this kid, Dave Weckl, and this young rhythm section were making this futuristic jazz music that was exactly what I wanted to hear as a 14-year-old, 15-year-old kid who was seeking to become an extraordinary player. And what a great title, Return to Forever. Korean Return to Forever. Oh, wow. It is.

I mean, Chick's thing is... I've seen Chick Corea several times live. Like Ralph said, the joy that comes off of him. I mean, I feel like I've had a relationship with that electric band, that first electric band album. It's a record I still listen to easily once per month. It came out in 1987. To me, it was a picture of the future from the seat of a guy who,

I mean, arguably was in a futurist style religion I don't know like Chick Corea's whole thing makes me crazy because an extraordinary relationship to melody this record just turned me on my ear changed my life forever and I still return to it as if for me it was it's it's seminal it's seminal and i i have to go back and i have to remind myself the greatness every note i i savored every note i remember being in the car with my mom who my parents they had to go through a long phase of listening to jazz fusion music in the in the early mid 90s and my mom just said to me one time i can't listen to any more of this it sounds like every guy in this band is playing a

different song and i remember feeling like nothing felt like a bigger like to me that was just a badge of honor it's like yes that's exactly why i like this music you should have put ornette coleman on after she said that and then she really would have just jumped out of the car at that point don cherry you know that would have been like, I cannot do this anymore. What did you think about, like, were you also into, you must have been into Weather Report, Wayne Shorter, Jaco Pistorius, you know, Joe Zavinal. I mean, that sound was akin to what we're listening to with Korea. It's true. And all of that, I mean, we have to remember that these guys were superstars.

Mahu Vishnu, like they were playing stadiums. This was stadium jazz. This was an era of hi-fi record listening. This is when vinyl records were king. Music was at the top of the entertainment industry. Like it was the biggest selling. It was the biggest influence. Music meant all in the 70s.

But it also had a weather report and all that had the opposite on the rock side because then you you ended up with emerson lake and palmer with brain solid surgery rick wakeman's uh six wives of henry the eighth uh and this stuff was very ornate prog rock which i loved i used to go see those concerts all the time but there was this it was just before it got hijacked by you know toto and boston and got sucked into this vortex of vacuous you know pop studio music uh everybody got really like you know what the audience is there and they're willing to listen to stuff that's more complex and we're going to play it right it must have been a great time um jo Zano, Mahavishnu, Larry Crowe.

I wanted to change my name, by the way, to Mahavishnu Mahesh Ralph. Apparently it was taken. Hawk, though, I know Huntsville a little bit. My best friend growing up had a cottage nearby, and I spent some time. You must have been the only kid in Huntsville listening to this. Everyone else was listening to Back in Black by ACDC. That is right.

Which has given me a very interesting little piece of inside knowledge that I'm glad I got when I was young to help me throughout the quizzical moments in my own music career, which is I was born without... Music for a lot of people is about a tribal belonging.

This is why people buy t-shirts with their favorite band on it. It's like, oh, look, there's another guy with a Ramones t-shirt. That means we're the same. We're in the same tribe. I'm glad to know I can have comfort that there's other tribe members around me. In the 90s when people were into Nirvana and I was listening to Chick Corea, like I realized I have got no interest in belonging to these people's tribe.

Like wearing a rancid t-shirt at school is not interesting to me. Like, and I didn't, I realized that I was seeking music for a vastly different reason than I think a lot of my friends who were looking for some sort of tribal involvement. For me, I was like, give me brilliance. I just need brilliance. Just give it to me in any shape from any vessel. It doesn't matter. It just needs to contain something that is going to knock me out.

And I don't care. There's no t-shirt that comes with that love it you ready for your fourth jam yeah yeah សូវាប់ពីបានប់ពីបានប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពី Tell you what, Hawk. There's no T-shirt for this shit. Jeez. I interviewed him, John Schofield. Educate me, though. I only know Dick Schofield played a little shortstop for the Blue Jays. me though i i only know dick scofield played a little shortstop for the uh blue jays well this this for me like again this was an era where there was this new generation of super drummers and this

the drummer on these albums through this uh john scofield's uh jazz fusion uh era part of his career this was dennis chambers who was a guy who was playing grooves deeper than you'd felt who could who was such an authority at the kit could play fast fills lots of feel lots of groove but uber technique and I mean this is my introduction to Schofield again that this era was my introduction to to Chick Corea as well which for by some measures you know was just nothing could be more abhorrent than to come into this point in these people's careers. But I came into John Schofield in such a big way. And I even think his oblong melody playing, the way he sort of there's an abstract approach to everything he does melodically that

as a kid, I was like, and I was also playing guitar at the time as well. And I was like, I really believe Schofield's melodic sensibilities had a massive influence on me because I hadn't heard melodies skew in that direction in the pop field ever in my life. And to this day, I feel like I hear Schofield come out of my vocal melodies. Totally dig this because Schofield himself was part of a movement that it came and then unfortunately it went where jazz really influenced pop music and rock music yes in a way that it hasn't since you know jazz has gone back to its corner and rock pop because hip-hop became the new way of seeing how you fuse different cultural and significant pieces together um so when i

listen to schofield i just think this was such a for these guys this was a great opportunity to actually reach such a much bigger audience i mean everybody was in on fusion of some kind you know dolly parton was doing pop country right and uh who uh brooks garth brooks you know guys like that a huge crossover appeal so for some reason all the the walls came down for a while and everybody got to mix with each other and now because of you know micro marketing it's like what is your genre who are you playing for it's the same with everything in the arts yes with tv shows same with radio programming it's what you know i need a sliver give me a sliver pound it into the ground and that's that's the focus of your attention and if you try to venture out of it i'm sure hoxley you have found this is that if you become more

agnostic to this nonsense that people who want to make money off you are like hey hey what are you doing they're not going to know that's you right you know no great point yeah so weird but you're absolutely you're 100 true and you're right like it is more and more vital for young artists to define themselves um in a spotify universe where us to define themselves in a Spotify universe where living in a category as authentically as possible is how you make your career go. Like, again, like I was raised on being an individual and being authentic. And it's like arrive in the 21st century, the two first qualities you need to jettison to be successful is being an individual and being authentic yeah fit into the two biggest again like and i'll just quickly say i've been talking a lot

about the 1980s because i've made two records that are very nostalgic of the 80s and and even what ralph had said about when he remembered michael jackson and the jackson five the music in the 90s so at seven years old, it was 1982 when I was seven. So 1983, I was eight years old. We were closer in 1983 to 1969 than I think we realized. I think that, again, there was a lot of 40-year-old luminaries from the 60s who were being sold to me. The zeitgeist was saying, hey, you still like Paul Simon. He's 40 and he's about to make the greatest record of his life.

Hey, you still like Steve Winwood, right? Here he is. Higher love. You know what I mean? Like the 60s, the early 1980s, like you can imagine the holdovers from the late 1960s in the music business and what we were being sold. Further to that, I'll say as per, as it pertains to Michael Jackson and another jam that's coming up from Prince and so much of the 1980s.

And I was commenting about this too, as it related to Eddie Van Halen. As a kid in the 1980s, the zeitgeist and popular culture was offering up geniuses and virtuosos, and they were putting them on much music and MTV and saying to eight-year-old kids, these should be your heroes. These are the people to emulate. Here's a guy who's the best guitar player in the world. Here's a guy who can sing and dance like no other. Here's a guy who is infinitely heroes. These are the people to emulate. Here's a guy who's the best guitar player in the world. Here's a guy who can sing and dance like no other. Here's a guy who is infinitely creative. These were my idols. Do I think that continues to be the case? Do I think

that the zeitgeist and popular culture are giving kids geniuses and virtuosos to emulate? I'll let you answer that. Firewords. Hey, Hawk, though, before I kick out this next jam, when I first heard that Schofield song, because you said it over and I listened to it, I was thinking of the Night Court theme song.

Oh, right. There's a lot of slapping and popping in there. Yeah, yeah. I'm like, oh, yeah, man, I'm digging this. I feel like we're going to see Bull Shannon. It does sound like the Night Court. A lot of drop beat in that song. Oh, yeah.

Pump, pump, you know, very heavy slap. I like it. And just so the producer knows, Mr. Ben Murgey, pump, pump, you know, very heavy slap. I like it. And just so the producer knows, Mr. Ben Murigy, what minute are you needing to disappear? Like at 11? Well, yeah, like a 5-2. Okay.

I've got a date with Mr. Doyle, Alan Doyle. I don't mind being blown off for Alan Doyle. Like that's kind of an honor. I'll let him know that. We'll get a couple more jams in here let's kick out number five it's a slow build but it's coming coming. I'm going to go ahead and do it. Thank you. guitar solo Everyone could be here and cry But also comes the screaming man

This beautiful creature must die This beautiful creature must die A death for no reason Death for no reason It's murder And the flesh is all fancy Now I feel bad about the burger I ate yesterday, but here's Hawk's fifth jam. The Smiths, Meat is Murder murder from the album meet his murder

yes this was a whole time right this was like the art uh simply read the smiths prefab sprout oh man i love prefab sprout i love prefab sprout two wheels good produced by thomas told me oh my god i know it's so good in fact are we putting Oh, man, I love Prefab Sprout. I love Prefab Sprout. Two Wheels Good. Two Wheels Good is the best! Produced by Thomas Tollby. Oh, my God! I know, it's so good. In fact, are we putting Prefab Sprout in here, Mike? I feel like we are.

Are we? No, we're not. We're not, but that was your decision. Oh, shoot. Okay, well, because it came to Prefab Sprout outside of 18, it's true. Okay. Horsin' around in Siri.

Sorry. That is a big album. I always love the name of serious. Sorry. That is a big album. I always lump it in. Sorry. Sorry. The Smiths had such a haunting thing to them. And there was the, you know, the Talking Heads. I was in Boston when the Talking Heads came out.

And we went to the Paradise Bar and watched them. It was art bands, art bands, more art bands. And the Smiths were like just the royalty of the art band out of england at that point it's a really good way of putting it art bands it's so true and for me so like i had this funny like duality so meanwhile i was juggling on one side like the desire to become a super drummer and on the other side i had this like you know mopey teenage you know fledgling poet thing where I was like I wanted to be Weckl in one side and then Leonard Cohen on the other

and I was just trying to fuel up with as much kind of like abstract as Ralph says it's art art pop and I I sort of lived a duality of of jazz fusion and art pop through my teen years which because I was I was going to both reservoir trying to kind of create a hybrid that would make sense for myself I I believed you could be a super great jazz fusion drummer and you know a dark gloomy you know poet type just like Morrissey and I that's kind of what I was working towards. And the Smiths, I mean, I turned my house into vegetarians. I was like an 11, 12-year-old political vegetarian, the whole house. When my parents split up, it was one of my dad's things.

He held that. He was like, and the fact that we all went vegetarian and I agreed, I never wanted to. I'm sorry. Dad, dad, breathe, breathe. And I even remember in my mopey, and I was always, you know, I was a dark and disappointed. To this day, I wish I could be less disappointed,

but I was a dark and disappointed kid. I'm a dark and disappointed adult. And I was a dark and disappointed teenager who I remember listening to Meat Is Murder on headphones in my basement. You know, that's that time I was the oldest child, so I had moved my bedroom into the basement, you know? Well, yeah, that's in the swamp. the oldest child, so I'd move my bedroom into the basement, you know. Oh, yeah, that's the swamp.

In the swamp. And my dad could hear me, it is murder, oh, it is murder. And he comes busting, he literally kicks the door in, like, as if, I don't know, if I've got a tourniquet on or what he thought at 15 I was doing in Bay Lake, Ontario. Now, wait, question. What is it and what were you disappointed about to this day it's you know it's a genuine it's a it's a it's a it's just a malaise and disappointment in humans like you know I'm a good old-fashioned I think I'm a desperately I'm trying to recover as a misanthrope. Really hard, to be honest with you.

I'm over this anti-human thing. But I think as a kid, I felt like, you know, there's no greater time in your life to examine hypocrisy than when you're a teenager. And that's when it's quickly revealed to you that adults have been saying one thing and doing another your whole life. And this is the first time you really have to reckon with it, you know? Yeah, but they haven't had the compromise of life yet. They haven't had to make the big, hard decisions. But you don't know that. No, of course not. You get a docket of pure righteousness to spend however you please when you're 15.

You get to point at your parents. You get to point at the world and go, you're all idiots. And this kind of music, meat is murder. Like, look at all these hamburger eating savages, you know, ruining the rainforest. And it's like, as a 15 year old, all you have is righteousness. Because in one sense, you have no experience. And then in another sense,

you have a clean record because you've got no experience. You aren't indictable at that point. You can righteously point at the world and go, you're all idiots because you haven't had the opportunity to make any big mistakes yet. And you also haven't had the acid test of making a living and keeping a cage full and having children and all these things. Yeah, no, I mean, I'm a vegetarian and people are always, you know, on me about it.

Well, why? Is it environmental? Is it, it's like, why do i have to justify it you have to i'm not asking you to justify your burger mike but you know it's what you got to do right and with the smiths they were in your face about how you were living your life i mean even those opening lines heifer wines could be human cries and it's just like as a 15 year old kid that's all i needed the whole family's going vegetarian i'm calling it right heifer wines could be human cries. And it's just like, as a 15-year-old kid, that's all I needed. The whole family's going vegetarian. I'm calling it.

Pepper wines could be human cries. We're done. That's the spark. Boom. Absolutely. No, that jam there reminds me of that whole scene there, like the cure, the early Depeche Mode, like just very cool stuff, man.

Stripped. You know that song stripped oh i thought you say striptease depeche mode no it's a really good song this stuff was all happening when i was hosting nightlines out in winnipeg and ross porter who was my producer who had has and had magnificent taste in music he could just put together sets that were just like, wow, fantastic. But to get the job, I had to audition. So I had to start buying NME and all the periodicals from England about this kind of music, because it was what was happening.

You know, even stuff like A Flock of Seagulls. One of my favorite names, The The. Oh, yeah. It's like, what are you doing? But that whole scene was what I had to get myself up to because I'd given up on pop by then. You know, I was like 30, you know, when I was doing this show, 31.

So I'd given up on pop and I had to get back into it. And this was the pulse point, the Smiths and all these other bands, you know. That's really cool. Amazing. Shout out to Ross Porter. Now, let's kick out jam number six here, because I think this might be the last one Ralph's able to chime in

about here. And it is a slow burner at the beginning. I almost think I should talk it up to hit the post here. Oh, yeah, yeah, right, right, right. 17 minutes past the hour. Big crash on the DVP going northbound. Keep going. You got more more time you got to tell me how much time i have i i wish i could tell you but it might be into my ex yesterday it was fantastic she really hurt me when are we gonna hear you on uh jazz fm again uh we miss you there. I got to get on there. Me or Hoss? Oh, I meant Ralph.

Yeah. I'll bring Hossley with me. It'll be good. I was just on there for fundraising. Awesome. Clearly you weren't listening, Mike. More contributing, I might add. You're very busy with your sponsors.

You have no time for us. Cleve attempts at art. You always know just what to say And when to go But I got one thing You can see in the dark But I got one thing I love you better Last night I woke up Saw the same change Yeah, also my pet name for Ralph Ben-Murgy, Gravity's Angel. Wow, man.

Wow. Laurie Anderson. Amen. Yes. See, that was part of that whole movement too, right? Totally. Talking about Gloria Anderson, Velvet Underground. That was the American side of the same coin, I think.

Yeah. Right? Where you could be ethereal. Well, and Peter Gabriel appears on that, and it's part of Peter Gabriel's band. Like, it's produced by Bill Laswell, but you've got Jerry Morota on drums. You've got Adrianrian blue on guitar like you had this kind of super group yeah playing this abstract like pop spoken word stuff this wasn't my first introduction to laurie anderson i stumbled on this at a slightly later date i listened to this whole record uh gravity's angel i uh several times a year and have done for most of my life, my adult life or most of my life now, I guess, because I've been listening to it for a majority of my life.

I listen to this when I want to be reminded that I'm not working hard enough and that I'm not being artful enough. It just oozes good decisions, audacity, risk, recklessness. And there are a lot of compositional factors that I'm just fascinated by. Still, to this day, when I listen to this, I feel like the very idea to do this in and of itself was all I need to know. Like sometimes a good idea and I'll let my imagination fill in the blanks. I couldn't have even done it with this. I said, okay, we're going to put this, Laurie Anderson, Bill Laswell, Adrian Ballou, going to have guest spot, Peter Gabriel.

My imagination would have run wild and still not come up with how brilliant the actual product is. And I just, I mean, there's nothing like this. It's just such a phenomenally audacious, in-your-face piece of pop art. You know, one of the things I'm noticing about your selections, though, is you have the soul of a drummer. That's true. It's so true.

The hooks on every song. As a kid who grew up loving drumming, you know, and ended up really trying to teach myself how to play drums and doing it horribly on a kit, i can play hand drums well but just every song has a compelling a drum beat a compelling sound to it that is driven by the kit so i'm noticing that i'm loving it don't get me wrong it's my favorite thing it's also i think a guy thing like every guy thinks he's funny and every guy thinks he can play the drums right right you know so you're in a comedy club and the guy's looking at you like i could do that it's like okay get up here do it yeah but it's the same thing with drumming is like the air guitar is

one thing but the guy's going to ting ting ting ting ting you know it is true you can't you can't not it comes right up from your feet yeah you're absolutely right about that drumming is it's a funny skill to have it is like a superpower there's no doubt about it people see it as a superpower oh it drives everything right yeah you watch well when they used to do peter gabriel did the womat festivals the world music festivals yeah you know people would like to see go music from china because it was curious to them. But when it came to getting a crowd going, you had to go to the African section where the drums were. And then everybody was just moving all the way through. They could not not move. Even the dork had to keep dancing.

You couldn't stop yourself. Guys, I got to go. Okay, Ralph. Good luck with the great big C there. And thanks for doing this, Ralph. Always love having you on big C there. And thanks for doing this, Ralph. Always love having you on. My pleasure. So not that kind of rabbi.

We'll have Alan Doyle on in a couple of weeks. It's up to Mike. It's a Thursday after the one that's coming up. So like 10 days or something. Jeffrey Kaufman is the one we just put out. So I hope people can watch. Say hi to Alan for me. I shall.

And Hawksley, great selection. Thanks for hanging. My pleasure. I love listening to your wisdom and knowledge. I shall. And Hoxley, great selection. Thanks for hanging. My pleasure. I love listening to your wisdom and knowledge, I have to tell you. Before you log off, can I give you a very quick movie recommendation since we're talking about drummers? Yes.

Make sure you see The Sound of Metal. It's called The Sound of Metal. My wife was a metal queen. Oh, Lee Aaron? I forgot you married Lee Aaron. Close. I married better. I don't even know Leigh-Anne.

I don't know why I had to say that. Oh, I know. But my wife was a metal queen and Rock and Roll Heaven was a major hang for her. Well, source out, it's a brand new movie. It's nominated for an Oscar.

It's called The Sound of Metal. M-E-T-A-L. Yeah, The Sound of Metal. And check it out. I just saw it on the weekend, and all of us loved it. My teenage daughter loved it. My wife loved it. I loved it.

Where is it streaming? I think you got it right now. I think you'll have to pay for it. So you have to wait a little bit because it's like a new release, whatever that means in the time of COVID. But yeah. All right. Say hi to all your sponsors for me.

All right. Peace and love to you, my rabbi. You as well, my friend. Hoxie, take care of yourself. You too, Ralph. Great chatting. Thanks. Okay, bye.

Bye. Finally, we're alone, Mr. Workman. It's going to be good. Okay, so let's get to the next jam. Yes. Ralph's missing out. Telling you that. I invited him for the whole show.

Japers. Japers. After the sun's gone down Two vapor trails cross the sky Catching the day's last slow goodbye Black skyline looks rich as velvet Something is shining like gold line looks rich as velvet something is shining like gold but better

rumors of glory rumors of glory smiles mixed with curses they call him Bruce they call him Bruce. They call him Bruce. Talk to me, buddy, because I'm glad you played some Bruce here,

because I have some things to say about Bruce. Go ahead, my friend. Okay, yeah, well, Bruce is my everything. So, again, when my dad couldn't get the 45 of something, he would begrudgingly buy the LP. So we had this on LP, Bruce Coburn Humans, released in 1980. And it sat in my dad's vinyl collection for a long time. It was like innocuous.

I didn't look at it twice. I went through my Zeppelin era, kind of like whatever, you know. And then I got a little bit older into my early teens, started to leaf back through my dad's collection going, you know, what really is in here? Now I'm curious. Now I'm interested there's must be something else so i had a t uh a babysitter when i was a kid whose brother was the school genius and i idolized him um he was the first kid in our school to to do the um rubik's cube and he was a phenomenal drawer and he could draw all of the star trek and star wars stuff perfect and all like he could draw all of the Star Trek and Star Wars stuff perfect and all like he could draw Han Solo's gun perfect.

His name was Eric and Eric was just, he was like the true genius of my school, older than me and somebody I really looked up to. So Bruce Colburn looked like him and so I honestly, I thought I'm going to give this record a try

because he looks like Eric and Eric was somebody I wanted to be and so I threw that record on and that's it i'll never look back so it turned out that bruce coburn was also a genius a genius that i would begin to look up to and like to this day like bruce is unattainable he's untouchable to me and now that i'm in the biz and stuff and i get to hang out with bruce from time to time like i still say stupid stuff to him. Um, I still don't know what to say around him. Like I'm working at it. You know what I mean? Like it's weird. I get to meet my hero. So I got to meet some of my heroes. I got to meet Coburn. And what's

interesting is when you contrast personalities is like, I wanted to be Bruce Coburn so bad as a teenager, but realized that the fundamentals just weren't there. You know, like I grew up in a, a household with a, like we were a funny house. My dad appreciated funny people. I remember talking to Bruce about this. He's like, oh yeah, in my house, my dad was a doctor. We didn't laugh about anything, you know?

And it's just like, oh, okay, fundamentally different. But the gravitas in everything that Bruce sang about, like Bruce was just one of these guys that could wield words with, he's just ferocious. And he is to this day. The other thing is about the canon of Canadian music. I always think, look, we deified Neil, but how many, I mean, Neil disappoints a lot. Like, let's talk serious talk, right?

Sure, real talk. Real talk, here it is. Neil Young lets us down a lot, you know? Sure. But we deified him nonetheless. With Bruce, Bruce never sought to be cool. He never sought to wear a lumber jacket and turn into everybody's favorite cool guy.

In fact, Bruce is terminally uncool. He even knows that and never made a career decision based on is this the right look? Never. Never, never, never. And this is the man who gave us the lyric, kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight amen which we should all have it tattooed on our arms yes absolutely nothing

worth having comes without some kind of fight gotta kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight like i mean as a teenager the thing was is that bruce's lyrics were sexy to me and they were christian and i was like i was trying to be both those things as a mid-teens. I was like, because the thing about Leonard Cohen's sexiness was that there was a macho sexiness. I'm going to get the girl. The narrative was always like, I got an incredibly sexy voice, and everything I say is effortlessly sexy, and I walk into a room and all the chicks want me. Coburn was like, dork zone, nerd town,

hopefully a girl likes me. And I was like, that's my lane. That's what I know. Like you're trying to figure out God and Jesus and women. You're just, it's all confusing. It's all much bigger than you. And Bruce sort of sits at Mount Life and just looks up at that peak. Whereas I think sometimes with Leonard Cohen,

you get this sense like, look, I'm up the mountain here looking at you clowns and you guys don't know anything, you know? Okay, let's talk Bruce. So, recently, and I won't put you on the spot and ask you if you bothered to even try to listen, although I will highly recommend it to you, but it's on Toronto Mic'd, we did 2.5 hours

on the song, Tears Are Not Enough. Oh, wow. I do have to check that out. I know. Every time I tell somebody about it, they're like, that sounds amazing! Or, they go, 2.5 hours on that four and a half minute song. Like just slip my wrist right now. Like forget it, whatever.

But I promise you, I know how your brain is working. You will love this episode. And part of this episode is the fun fact that Jim Valance, who wrote that song, Tears Are Not Enough, David Foster composes it. Jim Valance, who wrote that song, Tears Are Not Enough, David Foster composes it, Jim Valance writes it. He flew to Hamburg, Germany to get Bruce Coburn to record his part. Like, because Bruce was in Germany on tour.

And I think he gets to Germany and he's like, okay, Bruce, I've got one day to get your recording and bring it back to Vancouver or whatever. And Bruce is like, Oh,

I haven't even decided I want to do this yet. Like Bruce hadn't even made up his mind yet, but I guess Bernie Finkelstein told Jim that Bruce will do it. Don't worry. Bruce will do it. And he gets on a plane. So, uh,

that's in there too. And you got to listen to the 2.5 hour deep dive, but Bruce, I think it's, Bruce isn't on that song, if I recall. Yeah, he is on it. I think he is on it, but they recorded his part in Hamburg. But you know who's not on that?

And this is why I want you to listen. Leonard Cohen's not on that song. Yeah. And okay, so I just talked to Carol Pope. Have you ever met Carol Pope? I've spent a lot of time with Carol Pope. Yeah, I know Carol Pope real well. Okay, amazing.

Okay, so I just had her on Toronto Mic, and I was running down a couple of names that were omitted like where was buffy saint marie right like where the fuck is buffy that's and then she's like oh maybe she was busy or maybe leonard cohen didn't want to do it or whatever i have no idea i can never ask leonard now but i can ask buffy so if you can hook me up i want to talk to buffy saint marie but that's a side if you know anyone you can hook that up. But yeah, listen to the episode on Tears Are Not Enough. And Bruce Colburn, I just think he's very, you're right, he's kind of the nerdy rock star. And he's an accessible kind of guy. And he's, I don't know,

I think he's in the West Coast now. I know I think he lives in California. Yeah, he lives in San Francisco. He's got a young kid. Yeah, he's got a younger kid, sort of like Ben Mergey actually so now that he's gone we can say you know Ben Mergey had a couple of kids like I did the same thing a couple of kids at first marriage or whatever and then gets married again ends up with a couple more kids and he turns out to be like one of those old dads like I I'm not as old a dad as Ben Mergey is because he's got a few years on me but I I totally relate to like doing it again. I think me, Bruce, and Ben Berge are in that club there. One more time.

Yep. Yes. Shout out to that. Yeah, they broke up this year too. So, okay. So, love it when you kick out the Coburn. And good job there, buddy. And I'm going to dedicate, before I kick this,

I don't know, what is it called? Like penultimate means second last. What's third last? Is there a word for it? Subpenultimate. Okay, so the subpenultimate. I'll go with that. Before I kick this out, I'm going to actually dedicate it to Mark Hebbshire

from Hebbsy on Sports because Hebbsy, when he kicked out the jams and he might have been the first guy to do it, he kicked out this guy and really loves this guy's work. So no spoiler. Let's kick it out. Welcome to the first episode of White Anthology. The White Zone is for loading and unloading all loads. Don't you be terrified.

This is the token of my extreme. Don't you be terrified It's just a token of my extreme Don't you never try to look behind my eyes You don't want to know what they have seen

Don't you never try To look behind my eyes You don't want to know What they have seen Bring Zappa. This is a token of my extreme. Yeah. I mean, I love it when I hear somebody say that they appreciate Zap

because it tells me they're a highly intelligent person. Like, this is not for the... Oh, interesting. Every person. So, in high school, we had two exchange students one year, one from Italy and one from Switzerland. And she was Swiss-German, I believe. two exchange students one year one from Italy and one from Switzerland and she was Swiss German I believe and she had sold me on the idea of Frank Zappa and

said when I get back home to Switzerland I'll make you a tape and send it to you in the mail so you know she pre-sold Zappa and this is back and this is how how time unfurled itself back when I was a kid, which was like, in two months, when I get back to Switzerland, I'll make you a cassette, and I'll send it in the mail back to you. So we're talking a four-month or so event horizon. Yes, I remember. Yeah, and so I get this in the mail.

I put it on. I'm obviously also like a libidinous 15 16 year old boy who's hearing like this like just sex talk at a level and like uh it was revealing and dirty and with an honesty that like was not anything that was a part of my life i like this record because the drummer is vinnie caliuta again one of the great great greats of that era coming from the d Dave Weckl era of these super drummers. And we used to drive to high school, my brother and I, because I would stay late for band, and there was reasons for us to take one of the family vehicles to school.

And I would play Zappa with my younger brother in the car, and I would, like, dip the volume whenever, like, some of the sexual innuendo got way too weird, and I was like, I'm going to destroy my brother's life. But I can't not listen to this. There are days where there is simply no, there is nothing that will scratch the Zappa itch. If you feel like listening to Zappa, you cannot put on,

oh, I'll put on something close. It's like, no, no, no, no. If you want to hear Zappa, there's only one thing that will scratch that itch. I still listen to this album all the time. All the time. It's funny to hear you talk about the sexual innuendo in the Zappa. And of course, I always think of High School Confidential, right?

With Carol Pope. Yes. Creaming her jeans. Creaming her jeans. I mean, it's... Again, we don't talk honestly as a culture about sex. And men don't talk honestly as a... M sex, and men don't talk honestly as a, like, males don't, they lie to each other about sex, and, like, there's not a lot of honesty in the world.

And so when you get glimpses of, like, honesty about sexuality, it's like, it turns you upside down, especially when you're a kid and you know you're being fed a version of sexuality. It's the safe thing for you. Here's the rules to abide by. Yes, this feeling is the most powerful feeling in you at the moment but don't don't listen to it don't trust it it's wrong it's wrong and then you got a guy like zappa walking in talking about this dirty stuff and you're like holy this is what i was looking for i was looking for somebody give me the stray goods on this well haw, this explains your final jam. Right? We haven't got there yet, everybody, but the final jam,

because actually the final jam reminds me of High School Confidential by Rough Trade, like in the sense of kind of like the lyrical subject matter, just like, you know, it just sort of has that, I don't know, you use a big word like libidious, I hope I even said that. Libidinous, yes, libidinous.

Which is just French for the business. Well, I only know libido, I know that word, so I figured out the Latin root and then I extrapolated. But I got to let Hebsey know somebody else finally kicked out some Zappa because I said that it means you're smart. I can hear now the that's the great thing. Is it Joe's Garage? Is that

the name of this? That's Joe's Garage, yeah. Yeah, they got that. Sounds good in the headphones, but, uh, the delay person, like I'm not talking about a Valley girl or anything like that, but the, you know,

the delay person can't really like, I don't think it's an accessible kind of music. Like my wife would hate it with a great passion. Yeah. People, Zappa makes people hate, like it's people hate Frank Zappa. They, they just do. And like like but you're right like i don't know if it's indicative of intelligence or just well he's so smart that's

why i say like zigzappa such a he was such a sharp guy like whenever you'd hear him debate about like oh yeah on a crossfire or something you're like this guy got it man he's he's as sharp as a tack yeah again i think as a kid like i was looking up to these like airtight archetypal figures like for me i like one hit wonders and i like songs and i like this and that but i was looking for heroes and i think in some ways like that we were raised in as as children of baby boomers like baby boomers curated the 1980s entertainment complex for us they gave us goonies they gave us fantasies they gave us like they gave us fantasies to be the heroes in and to win and i think that in a way this is what i'm talking about the boomers gave us virtuosos and

geniuses on mtv and said here's here's who you're trying to emulate and so we took that in the 80s we took that seriously it's like oh geniuses and virtuosos are what you aspire to i mean that was quickly changed and i think actually it's almost like when when pornography became almost like more readily available in the culture music um it it responded by sort of porno pornifying itself and then all of a sudden like brilliance was no longer a thing. We needed to sell bodies now that had voices coming out of it. But are you suggesting

that the top 40 music of today has been dumbed down? I am suggesting that very thing. I still think there's a lot of brilliant stuff out there. I still think brilliant people are making that music. But I think that as an an audience we are seeking a

lighter version of of of entertainment and i i'm not sure that like we have the capacity or even like the educated cultural spirit to go down deeper than even in ways we were able to a couple of decades ago because whenever i have similar thoughts, I imagine Grandpa Simpson, Abe Simpson, yelling at the cloud, right? And then I always wonder, well, every generation says this and I'm now one of the old guys saying, get off my lawn, you crazy kid.

And I'm saying it too. I'm saying, honestly, Mike, it bums me out that I'm that guy. It bums me out, but I can't help it. And if I was a non-educated, like, look, I can't comment in, in, uh, look at sports. Like I think Wayne Gretzky would tell you hockey players are way better now than they were back then for some reason, like where we've used innovation and work ethic and all of these things to make sports better. And it's a better product and it sells up into greater capacities.

In arts and culture, we had to go the other direction, I think. I don't know why. I don't know why. Oh, in order to reach a bigger audience, we have to make this thing less interesting. It's sort of like when you look at, let's say you're a big fan of The Wire,

like I am, and then you're like, oh, but meanwhile, when you look at the ratings, everybody wants to watch like Two and a Half Men. Like Two and a Half Men is the show everybody's watching.

And The Wire is actually a very like a subset of a subset. And it's actually not a very well-watched show, even though you think it's the greatest piece of television art ever produced or whatever.

It's because this is what, I guess it's money ruins everything. Is this the bottom line here? I feel like that's, is that a Cyndi Lauper song? I'm trying to remember now. Money ruins everything. I can't remember. You know what?

I'm not one of those money ruins everything people. I think that lack of courage ruins everything. Like to me, you can make oodles on innovation. You can make oodles on brilliance. You can make oodles on genius. But the gatekeepers in the arts and culture biz tend to be pretty uninteresting. Risk averse. They're risk averse. Right. And so when, you know, somebody like me comes knocking at the door, hey, can you let me

into the party and make me famous? And they go, good God, really? Like, it's going to be hard to make you famous because A, you're weird. You're nonconformist. You are fundamentally like you're a contrarian. Like all the stuff that pop, that the zeitgeist no longer is interested in, you are. So it's going to be harder work to get you into the public eye. Well, this goes back to, you know, marketing wise, they want you to fit into a box. Like, and if you don't fit in that box, like a H hoxley workman then we don't know how to sell this like we don't know how to market this because we need you to be like this and that sucks because

uh my my tastes and my preferences are for those people who don't fit in a box so i feel like i lose out at the end of the day because everyone's trying to fit in these fucking boxes but anyway it's true and i feel like you know i honestly i think that even politically speaking like again like i came from a time where i think we aggressively sought to be individual and i think that i think modernity and young people are aggressively redesigning themselves to fit into a comfortable group so that they so that they have a belonging and that they can't be canceled or that they're in the and that they can't be canceled or that they're in the right club. And like, it's fundamentally,

it's not what I grew up with. I was raised to be like, look, you find your own lane and you become your own person and you hold up your own mantle and you broadcast your own thing. And I think now it's like, that gets more and more dangerous.

I think it's easier to just toe the line and say the stuff that your tribe is saying and get out of the line of fire. It's like the line from Fight Club. You are not a unique snowflake. You're not the all-singing, all-dancing crap of the world. Did you remember this line? Right.

Let's get to this penultimate jam, though, because I'm at the end of our jam kicking, and I want to just find out what you're up to. But here we are, penultimate jam for hoxley workman hmm Learning lies in the rain Special effects by your lytic and drains The graveyard scene The golden years She's in party It's in the can She's in party It's in the can She's in party

It's in the can Oh Ah Ah Ouch Ouch In the song, by the way, Baha'us Baha'us And the song, by the way, I always have to remind myself to give the name of the song because people listen here and are like, what was that song?

She's in Parties. Yes. She's in Parties by Baha'us, yes. Again, this came from my gloomy period, which coincided with my jazz- get hot at drums period i was a duality that not many of my brethren were dealing with in high school i wanted to be so i wanted to be peter murphy skinny this the singer of this band is like you know he looks to be about 96 pounds and has like a glorious like you glorious, like facial features like you, like nice chin, classic, handsome, widow's peak, like that.

Yeah, that stunning thing. And I wanted to be Peter Murphy really badly in high school. I wanted to be skinny and I wanted to be lean and dress like a goth. And I wanted to have that voice. And I wanted to say that like abstract, kooky, dark vampire stuff. Even though, of course, when you grew up in rural Ontario along a lake with dogs, you couldn't be further from that. Right. And I'm not skinny like him.

That's for sure. Jolene, you got to. I got these monster, I like most of his muscle, I will say, because I cycle a hell of a lot. But I got these monster thighs and that whole body type it's definitely not the uh the string bean body type yeah oh can we talk about so bad well can we this is an opportunity for me to ask you because obviously last time you were on uh you had a few more pounds on you yeah that's right holy smokes it's so true i lost like oh i'm down quite a bit like 55 pounds i didn't you know okay so i okay i lost 40 pounds uh this is back about i think nine years ago and everybody was like i

don't think you had 40 pounds to lose because i would the way i carried it or whatever uh i feel like i'll repeat the same line like i you didn't look like you had 50 pounds to shed well like probably like you i i've been one of those like super active heavy people my whole life like i never wanted to be heavy but it's just a disposition my my body just sort of settles there i also overdo everything which means if there's a bottle of wine to drink i'll have two if there's like dinner to have i'll have four and so like it's there's but but the whole time like i'm running 10k i'm working out constantly with bodybuilding trainers like never once was i mushy but i had a lot of weight on top of on top like i'm one of the i was one of the fit heavy people

so no i totally get it i think that that was that was me and and during this pandemic i'll say i've been kind of carbo loading like just just like i've been finding comfort in yeah you know a shout out to palma pasta but in the pastas and uh pizzas and this kind of diet which uh as you know uh you can't be peter murphy skinny when you're no you can't i quit drinking too mike which we we've talked a bit about let's talk about it so obviously there is a beer sponsor uh but i'm i want to hear about your uh what's your lifestyle change here well i think it's a part of it i think that like um i'm 17 months or 18 months into sobriety so like there was a lot of days where you wake up like whoa feeling pretty brutal and there's only one thing to knock that brutality back to where it belongs and that is like a massive you know it's like a hair of the dog

beer with omelet in the morning like those 11 a.m stumble to the corner like you know i i live a way different life all of a sudden and and then being lean now it just seems a lot easier i'm a lot less interested in food it It's very strange. But so is it, so you've obviously modified your diet essentially. So you're in- I eat way less. Yeah, you know what? That's what I did in 2012 because that was all I did.

I didn't do some weird fad diet or something. I call it eat half as much, like literally like- Yeah, it's exactly what I'm doing. People keep saying to me, because I've lost lots of weight in the past. Like when I was 37, I lost 40 pounds. Like I'm one of those people who does swing in 30 pound intervals. Like to me, I'm not like, you know, my wife can eat whatever she wants. And like, we're talking, it's a two pound swing any given time. For me, it's always been 20 to

40 pound swings. And so this one, people are like, wow, that must've really been hard. And it was the easiest weight loss ever because I think this is what this Noom thing is. So I'm guessing it's like people, this is in the consciousness right now, is eat half. Like, honestly, I think we're under the impression that if you think like what you're served at a restaurant, that that is like a scientific portion size. Like if you base your, yeah, I like a lot of, I like a lot of food. Like I like a lot of everything though. Like that's just, give me the, give me the most. Oh, you're preaching to the choir here because like if back in the day, and I'm kind of like

that now, but I literally burn a thousand a day on a bicycle. Like I, you know, just so, so I kind of get away with a bit of it uh but uh like in 2012 when i decided i got to shed this beef like i feel slow and i didn't feel good i came back from germany and all i do is eat like hunks of meat and drink lots of beer like and i just said oh my god like all i did is like so back in the day before that like pizza would i'd have pizza and i'd be like i'd have 10 fucking slices like i would just go until i felt so sick i gotta stop right i i don't get full uh like i like eating i like eating to the max and like it's such a glorious sensual experience like like you say like it's the same thing even with drinking like people are like well can't you just have one

and it's like one of anything is a fucking bore i do i'm I'm none or nine. Like, I really am not half one. Can't you enjoy one? No, I can't enjoy one. I can't enjoy it unless I'm swimming in it, honestly. You know, I'm with you, brother. And my wife and my almost 17-year-old, they bake. So, like, this weekend they make cookies, okay? And then I like to get a big glass of cold milk, okay?

Yeah. And I dunk the cookies. But I dunk, like, but I, I dunk, like, I just keep going. Like 12 cookies later, they're like, why can't you just have two cookies?

And I'm like, no, it doesn't work that way. That's why I can't do cookies. Like there are just things for me where it's like, look, like I do, you can get these.

There's a, one of the grocery store brands does a, a, a small ice cream bar. That's like 140 cows per bar., there's a, one of the grocery store brands does a, a, a small ice cream bar. That's like 140 cals per bar. And it's like, I have a few of those things kicking around, but for me, what, you know what, what's been really interesting when you remove sugar and you remove wine, my fascination with wine oriented food, I eat cheese. Like when I dream of living in Italy, which I do all the time. And in fact, I have a deal with my wife. I will drink myself

to death for sure, but I'll do it in Italy. We I do all the time, and in fact, I have a deal with my wife, I will drink myself to death for sure, but I'll do it in Italy. We have to just make a decision to sell everything in Canada, move to a cheap domicile in the south of Italy, and I'll be dead in four years.

I'm happy to do that, but we got to commit. Like, we go to Italy and I just whine, we whine it until like, I just walk out in the sea and never,

and float off. That's amazing, man. That sounds amazing. Wow. Is it amazing? Well, I don amazing, man. That sounds amazing. Wow. Is it amazing? Well, I don't know. It's something romantic about that. Like, it's sort of like go big or go home.

Like, right. Cause like, look, I'm going to, we just bought a house in Peterborough and like, I'm living a healthier life and I'm 46 and I feel very motivated. I got a ton of energy. I'm even kind of, because I was like through all my heavy weights in the last number of years, I've been working out with these monster bodybuilder guys. So I, all this weight comes off and I'm kind of ripped under there. I'm sort of like a middle-aged guy who's sort of ripped. It's weird. And like, and I'm cool to be like the healthy guy who's making healthy decisions. And

I've got a brain full of like positive activity, but the self-destructor in me lives out. He's still sitting there. he's just like hello whenever you want you want to move to italy you want to get back on the drink you want to you want to shove this thing right where it belongs you just call man we're gonna do this okay so there's a show i watch on cbc gem it's called uh working moms i don't know if you've ever heard of it okay so i'm a little pissed at it right now because so i like you're on the gem app though it's a great app oh you know you know what? There's such... I hate to use this expression,

but there's fucking hidden gems in there. Oh, there's a lot. There's so much good stuff. Including kids in the hall, yeah. There's so much good stuff on the CBC Gem app. So one of the shows I watch, Swerking Moms, my wife and I watch it.

And I'm actually really pissed because... And I think he's the real-life husband of Katherine Reitman. Like, this is Ivan Reitman's daughter who's like the... She writes the show. She stars in the show. Ivan Reitman, by the way is Ivan Reitman's daughter who's like the, she writes the show, she stars in the show.

Ivan Reitman, by the way, gave the speech at my convocation, my U of T convocation. So shout out to Ivan Reitman. But Catherine Reitman, her real life husband plays her husband in the show.

Okay. And in this most recent season, I'm so fucking pissed at this guy because he's just like a, he's like, he's a schlubby regular guy. Like, doesn't look, he's nothing special.

But in this new season this fucker takes off his shirt okay I am so mad because this I mean this guy is so fucking ripped what the hell and they make it a part of the show he only eats a little bit of salmon and a couple of spoonfuls

of brown rice or whatever and he just works out like a fiend or whatever because this i'm telling you this isn't like oh i got you know i lost the belly fat this guy is so fucking ripped and i'm so pissed because i just feel awful like like i'm like i should why don't i fucking look like that this schlub this 40 something we're both 46 years old okay this guy looks like he's about 46 years old like what the hell is going on under that shirt? And stop showing me because now I feel fucking terrible. Right.

So this goes back to when I was in Montreal. Like if you can believe it, when we moved to Montreal, I kind of thought in the early phases like, oh, Montreal will kill me. I'll die in Montreal because I'm going to drink too much and I'm going to die here. And then I kind of got so that, but I've always like couched my self-destruction with like workout regimes and lots of running and personal trainers. And so I had this great personal trainer who was like a football university scholarship guy named Leandra. And I was really into going to see the Alouettes play at the McGill Stadium.

And I remember going to one of my training sessions and I had good seats and they were playing the Hamilton Ticats and they got walloped. But the Ticats were a fast team really fast to watch and I was up close and I said to Leandra at our training session on the Monday and probably I came in hungover as I often did and I said I'll net those guys was 20 year olds look at their monsters I'll never look like that and he's like well why do you say you can't like you're in control of that you can look at that if you want to and And that was about three years ago. I had been working with a bodybuilder trainer,

but who wasn't that hardcore. I mean, we worked out hardcore, but he didn't, he wasn't like high concept training. So Leandra basically said like, this, it's all attainable. You just have to like change the channel. So I think that all those years, like Leandra, the other great thing about Leandra

is that he didn't give a shit about me. He brutalized me. It was was like a like for me like it's a masochism just to show up and just get booted around by this asshole just fucking hated me you know like but i loved it because i also like you know i think to be i run my own business i'm that guy i'm not going to see like dominatrix's but i do get the thrill of like not having to make a decision not being the guy on stage not having to be the guy who comes up with the big idea puts out the record is it going to be a single like all this shit just i go to this 26 year old beefcake who doesn't give a shit that i'm on tv or that people care or like my songs like he just treated me like meat and shoved me

through two years of brutality and i'm grateful for it now wow fucking okay so we got one more jam to go here all right so uh and then i want to find out what's going on with you musically at the end of that but i do want to just give a little love really quickly so i mentioned off the top uh mike majeski we call him mimico mike but if anyone's looking to buy end or sell in mimico that's where the cool kids like all the cool kids are moving to mimicoico in Southwest Toronto here. So you got to contact Mike Majeski or he's in the know in Mimico. You go to real estate love.ca. Tell them Toronto Mike sent you. And I want to give some love to Ridley Funeral Home because they've been pillars of the community since 1921. And Brad Jones, there is a tremendous FOTM. So you can pay tribute without paying a fortune. Go to ridleyfuneralhome.com

and stickeru.com provided the great decals and stickers. I send them out. I bike, I wish I could bike to Peterborough. It's a bit far, but I would totally, if I could. Not for an e-bike. I don't believe in them. No, I like the pedal power here, but I would totally bring you a stickeru Toronto Mike sticker. Those guys are fantastic. I like those pedal power here. But I would totally bring you a sticker, you Toronto Mike sticker. I like those stickers. So much love to them. And again, good on you, Hawk, for making some lifestyle changes.

But in moderation, I recommend for those in moderation, delicious fresh craft beer from Great Lakes Brewery. It is free delivery in the GTA too. Oh, cool. Go to greatlakesbeer.com. Are you ready for your final jam, buddy? Do it. I knew a girl named Nikki I guess you could say she was a sex fiend

I met her in a hotel lobby Masturbating with a magazine. What? She said, how'd you like to waste some time? I could not resist when I saw a little icky grind. Darling Nikki. Oh, yeah.

This is cabaret pop music right here. This is a cabaret pop song. It sure is dirty, Hawk. Holy smokes. Hello. Hello. So my, you know, my mom, like her mom, had a hair salon in our household. I probably told you this on the show before.

And, you know, when you have a hair salon in your household, it means there's a turnover of a lot of people. And what happens in hair salons is they chat. and what happens in hair salons as they chat. And I think that Prince Purple Rain, which was a tape that me and my babysitter used to listen to and freak out to and love, I think that there had been some secondary listening going on and I think that there had been a conversation in the hair salon that there was some untoward stuff on the tape

that young kids should probably not be exposed to. And I remember my mom going into my tape collection, extracting Prince Purple Rain, and it got put on the top of the fridge, like right on the corner where I could see it, like a billboard, right? Right, right, right. And I'm like seven or eight years old

and looking up there because it's under review now. I can't listen to it, but I can see it still, you know? And I'm walking by and there's the tape, boy. And I know why it's up there. It's up there because of this song. Sure. But you were only seven or eight, so I actually totally get that.

Only because I have a... My boy turns seven in a week, and I'm just thinking I'd probably do the same damn thing for Darling Lucky. But, you know, I think that, like, I was probably in the beginnings of, like, some, you know, lifetime of prodigious masturbation. Like, there was... This song was answering questions that I was just in the beginnings of formulating, if you know what I mean.

Then you go to school though and you sing it and then you get it. Then that's when the trouble starts. I wasn't singing this song at school. I was raised right. This is a song you sang at home in the comfort of your own bedroom. You don't bring this to school. Amazing. Have you heard the Foo Fighters cover?

No, but it doesn't surprise me that they do one that doesn't surprise me it's so great i mean this whole record again i go back to i i'm evangelical that the 1980s they put virtuosos and geniuses on tv for the consumption of kids they gave kids geniuses as heroes to purchase and emulate and make a part of their lives. It simply was the last time that that has ever... I don't know if that'll ever come back. But there just hasn't been that kind of audacious greatness in pop music ever since.

Is that why we Generation Xers are so awesome, do you think? We're also real... I mean, we were individuals. Like the latchkey part of like the Gen X, like adolescent childhood experience, like our parents trusted us at a very young age and therefore I think we took on responsibility at a young age. I think we're a very responsible generation.

Agreed. It just comes up a lot with my wife, who's seven years younger than me, but it comes up a lot with my wife uh who's a seven years younger than me but it comes up a lot like like the fact that i would i would bike myself to the park for t-ball games when i was my son's age like because the whole notion that like we could that would never happen today like we'd have to walk them to the park and we'd have to be there the whole time and then we you know so at different times different. And my wife is six years younger than me. And she like, she's still like, she's on the very edge of Gen X. Right.

Yes. But she's still more influenced by the 90s. Like for me, I've already checked out of pop culture in the 90s. I was like, eh, this grunge thing, I don't mind. It's TLC and all that stuff, right? Yeah. I was like, I'm out. I'm done.

I'm done with this. But that's her thing. I mean, I'm devoted to the 1980s. I mean, of course, like I'm a Jay-Z fanatic. We didn't even get into this in like, this music, like I said, is eight to 18. So like there is geniuses for consumption, Jay-Z, Eminem, like there are like geniuses for sale in modern popular music. But I think back when I was, I think that at large, like even back in the modern popular music but i think back when i was i think that

at large like even back in the day when duran duran was considered a boy band like those guys still played all their own instruments they were an art school band like that was that wasn't like oh we're gonna take five handsome kids from florida prop them up in a video and then sell the shit out of this thing like right also fine like but i'm talking about an era before an era where it was just a little bit higher quality but again pop music is the thing of the boomers like it's it comes from the 60s and and dylan said it himself that i think he said in the 1980s that we're still all just living on the fumes of the 60s and i think we're starting to see that die out as you and I get older.

Some of the fundamentals of how we see the world are disappearing quickly because they were so skewed by the boomers and just 60s cultural ethos. And it's just it's no longer relevant. The Internet, I think, has taken over from where the 60s kind of built the sense that we had of ourselves for several decades. Honestly, Hawk, I could talk to you. Would you like to come on every week, maybe? Always. You know, I would do it. So don't tempt me there.

I would do it too. So before we hear some lowest of the low here and say goodbye, musically, what have you been up to? Like, how are your events going? I know we talked when you kind of started your Huxley night in Canada. They go great. I mean, to be honest with you, I'm blown away. I get overwhelming numbers and response. I feel blessed.

Are you kidding? But it's been a great, it's an art project that my wife and I are truly like in, like we are in on together. Like Jenny runs all the behind the scenes stuff

and she cuts the show together. Like, I mean, she cuts it together live. She, she's like the live producer on the floor. And Jenny,

like, whereas I'm just doing something I've done for 30 years, I sing and play guitar. Like behind the scenes, she had to learn lighting, sound, video editing. Amazing.

It's kind of, so we do this thing out of our house and it's truly like an art project. And the other thing is like, I've got years of being on stage and doing that stuff. You know, a few shows ago, she had a moment where she, for like a 10th of a second, ran the wrong video and then caught herself and then ran the other she was so devastated by the mistake it destroyed her like she was bummed out for three days she's like i don't know how you do this i'm like here's how you do it is you always make mistakes on stage and then after about 400 shows you decide i'm no longer going to flagellate myself for those things i'm just going to accept that it happened and she's like literally

399 more mistake shows away from arriving at that place where she's going to like, let it run off her, like a water off a duck's back kind of thing. So, it's wonderful. Do you have a, when's the next one? Like, is there one that people could register for now, the Huxley Night in Canada? We haven't got one on scheduled. I'm going to do, I'm doing a couple of online shows that aren't specific Huxley Night in Canada shows. Huxley Night in Canada is also because I write a pet, an original pet song dedicated to a pet written into,

written in by fans. I shoot a whole pet song video. I have a friend from far-flung places always do a travel log diary. It was a buddy of mine in Paris that they time before that it was another buddy of mine in Bergen, Norway. So the shows they don't,

they're not just like these clowny, like, um, live stream, like turn it on. And it's some goof in front of a laptop. Like it's a little TV show and it usually takes two or three weeks. It usually turns my house from a tranquil universe into an emotionally like

charged upside down universe. You must have that. You run a entertainment broadcast at your own house. There must be some emotionality around your environs. Oh God. Yeah, of course. Of course.

Yeah. And I mean, I've been doing these pandemic Friday episodes every, we pledged to do them until the last of us. It's me, Cam Gordon and Stu Stone. And Stu actually, he's in LA. He's been in LA for a while doing some work.

So he got his first jab. And I think he, by the time I talk to him next, he might be finished. But basically we're going to do these Pandemic Friday episodes until the last of us gets our final shot or vaccination. And who knows when that'll be for me,

a 40-something year old in Toronto. I'm being very patient here. With ripped legs as well. Yeah. Where's my working mom's upper body? I almost want you to go to CBC Gem and just to check out this guy's bod. It's like, what the hell is that? It's funny because I think that there's a sense that men don't have that same sort of like feeling of self-loathing around bodies because it's really

like you know the in obviously female the female body is is very much a part of what's on advertisement in the world that we live in but there's no doubt about it like i think of the he-man figurines that we had as kids and like was it was there some mild homoeroticism added to like just also some personal self-loathing like when am I going to grow up and get shoulders and abs? Like Skeletor, right? I loved the Masters of the Universe stuff. Loved it. We were the same age, so we got the same touch points.

But at the same time, I would have been fine to grow up and be like Papa Smurf. Which is where I'm heading. Those were great things. Did you see the Masters of the Universe doc on Netflix? I believe I did when it first dropped what I liked was that it wasn't a spin-off of anything what the whole idea was

let's create this fantastical thing that's not associated to a movie so that kids can apply their own imaginations to these muscle-bound characters I love that also the whole idea, this show exists to sell merchandise. And usually that's more subtle,

but this is literally a vehicle to sell toys. So, amazing. And Hawk, any new music? How's the music production been going over there? I mean, I'm working on a short film for a friend. Whenever there's talk of me making a new record around here, been going over there i mean i'm working on a short film for a friend um you know whenever there's talk of me making a new record around here jenny who manages you know record releases are always a thing she's like oh god do we need to release anymore well let me ask you this then

is like i know we're being a little optimistic here but uh do you have anything in the calendar where it's an in-person performance like an actual where people physically come to you? Is there anything in your calendar? Not really. There's still, I'm oddly got a gig moved. I was supposed to play with Bruce Coburn at the C&E last year. It was going to be the first time I'd ever played like opening for Coburn. It was a big deal.

Of course, it got canceled. It's still scheduled. It's literally the only thing I've got scheduled. And I'm like like this has to happen because neither one of us is getting any younger but bruce is getting older towards the very like the higher number older than me and i just want this to happen i want to like high five bruce after we've like rocked toronto together like we've seen a million faces and we've rocked them all you know me and bruce hawk i fucking love this man i just gotta find a good

excuse maybe i think everybody got some ideas i'll run them by you but get you and ralph back together here again this would be so good i really want to join the podcast universe mike as you know that and like i'm trying to figure my way in but well you know that's what i do like just let me know when you want to chat literally i know it's what you do. I know. We've talked before. You said it's easy. You just plug it in and go. And you got the hard parts done, which is the two hardest parts are having the content, which you're fucking killer at, and sounding good. You've got a great setup there of that mic.

Most people don't sound as good as you do. Oh, man. Thank you. Wow. Come on. Wow. Thank you. Well, no, I think it's just about time.

I think it's about time. My wife is a podcast fanatic, and I've told you this. I'm not into podcasts, but I'm getting into them right now. Do me a favor. This is all I ask of you. How often do I ask anything of you? It's not enough. Go listen to the, just for fun, listen to Cam.

And you email me a link. That's how bad it is for me. I will email you a link. Thank you. And it is two and a half hours, but just try it. If you hate it, you can bail, and I won't be too offended. No, no, no, no, no. Just listen to a two and a half hour deep dive into the song

Tears Are Not Enough by Cam Gordon and I. We recorded it on a Sunday night, all live to tape, not a stitch of editing. Just listen. Just do that for me and let me know what you think. I'm going to. You're going to email me the link. I'm going to listen.

And we're going to do this again sometime soon. I love do. I'm going to. You're going to email me the link. I'm going to listen. And we're going to do this again sometime soon. I love it. And that. And that. Brings us to the end of our 825th show. You can follow me on Twitter. I'm at Toronto Mike. Hawk is at Hawksley Workman.

Follow him on Twitter. Our friends at Great Lakes Brewery are at Great Lakes Beer. Who am I talking to? Palma Pasta. They're at Palma Pasta. Sticker U is at Sticker U. CDN Technologies.

If you're looking to outsource your IT department, talk to Barb Paluskowicz at CDN Technologies. They're at CDN Technologies. Ridley Funeral Home. They're at Ridley FH and Mimico Mike. He's on Instagram at MajeskiGroupHomes. See you all next week. This podcast has been produced by TMDS and accelerated by Roam Phone.

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