Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Hebsy on the 2022 Blue Jays Collapse: Toronto Mike'd #1128

Episode Date: October 14, 2022

In this 1128th episode of Toronto Mike'd, Mike talks to Mark Hebscher, host of Hebsy on Sports, about the Blue Jays collapse against Seattle. Toronto Mike'd is proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, Yes, We Are Open, The Advantaged Investor, Canna Cabana, StickerYou, Ridley Funeral Home and Electronic Products Recycling Association.

Welcome to episode 1128 of Toronto Mic'd. Proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery. Order online for free local home delivery in the GTA. StickerU.com. Create custom stickers, labels, tattoos, and decals. Palma Pasta. Fresh, homemade Italian pasta and entrees. The Yes, We Are Open podcast.

A Moneris podcast production. The Advantaged Investor podcast from Raymond James Canada. podcast from Raymond James, Canada. EPRA, committing to our planet's future, means properly recycling our electronics of the past. Ridley Funeral Home, pillars of the community since 1921. And Canna Cabana,

the lowest prices on cannabis, guaranteed. The date is Friday, October 14th. It's exactly 10.28 a.m. I just got off of Zoom with Mark Hebbshire, Hebbsy Man, and we just recorded episode 305 of Hebsey on Sports. What you're going to hear in this special episode of Toronto Mic is a 45-minute excerpt from that episode of Hebsey on Sports. And if you like what you hear, and you dig Hebsey's take on things,

and you should, he's actually the greatest at this, and I just love it, you should subscribe to Hebsey on Sports. And you'll hear this type of commentary every single Friday morning. We do it at 9 o'clock, live on Hebsey's YouTube channel. I get to co-host, which is great fun for me. And it's pretty much in the feed, the Hebsey on Sports feed, by about 10.30 a.m. every Friday. I also have an ulterior motive here, of course. Mwahaha!

It is the season of Halloween and all. But I want to let people know that Hebsey on Sports, a great podcast, again, 305 episodes, hosted by Mark Hebbshire, has a golf sponsor. Crosswinds Golf sponsors the show, but only during the golf season.

And that is actually coming to an end at the end of October. So beginning November 1, Hebzeon Sports is sponsorless. And I just want to let everybody know that there are very reasonable rates here to help keep this show going. And you can slide into my DMs on Twitter.

I'm at Toronto Mike, or you can send me an email, mike at torontomike.com. If you have any questions and or any interest in becoming the primary sponsor of Hebsey on Sports. But let's get to Hebsey's take on the epic Blue Jays collapse from six days ago. What did Hebsey think about that 8-1 blow and lead? What did Hebsey think went wrong in that series against the Seattle Mariners? What would Mark Hebsey do differently in the offseason for next season? Will John Schneider be back? Will George Springer be

in center field? Let's talk about it. Here we go. Let me set you up here to say that when the shit went down on Saturday, Saturday afternoon, and that was like, I don't know, four plus hours, whatever. I got multiple notes

from people saying, we need to break in. We need a special episode of Hebsey on sports because people wanted to hear your take on what happened on Saturday. So here we are. I waited seven or six days for this. So the floor is yours. I'm going to sit back and enjoy.

Thanks. So my knee jerk reaction to last Saturday's choke job was the same as yours, the same as everybody else's. What the fuck just happened? Right. You sat there and went, what did I just, I replayed it. Saturday's choke job was the same as yours, the same as everybody else's. What the fuck just happened? Right? You sat there and went, what did I just? I replayed it through to those moments, you know, the ones I'm talking about. But at the same time, I knew there was no guarantee that they were going to win it.

And remember, even if they did, there was going to be a game three the next day. So I kind of went, well, hang on a sec. It wasn't like they had it in their grasp. They were going to win the champ. The champagne was on ice. No, it was like, we got to hang on to this and then win the next day. And at the same time, I was like, okay, wait a second. You need your same as everybody else, but hang on a second. You've been through this before. You've been through this before. Repeat after me. Okay. It wasn't a blowing seven-run lead in a game, a particular game, a big game, yes. But I'd seen stranger things

happen with this team over the last, how many years? 47 years? No. 47 years? 45. No. 45. Is that right? Yeah, 77. 46. 45. Is that right? Yeah, 77. 46. Yeah. So we have to include that season.

So we're going to, how many is it? 46 years now? Next year will be 46. Yeah. Okay. So you may not have lived through what I did. The agony of the torture of 1987. The team that was the best of all the Blue Jay teams, was the 87 team.

Took the division lead in early September. Went 13-3 down the stretch. 13-3 in September. Kicking the shit out of Detroit and Milwaukee and the Yankees and Boston and Cleveland and all the other motherfuckers that are in the American League East at the time. Not divisional play. That way there was East and there was West.

The Jays were the best. The Jays had 96 wins with seven games to go. 96 wins. But Tony Fernandez got taken out by Bill Madlock. I'm sure you heard the story from your grandfather. Broke his elbow and then landed right on. Like if he lands on the regular turf, he doesn't break the elbow. But there was a seam there because of the football field,

and there was a steel portion there as a whole. We went out there to look at it. When I stepped on this steel beam underneath there that Fernandez's elbow landed on, I was just, that's a freak accident. Anywhere else, yeah, he might hurt the elbow. You're not going to break it that way. So he's done.

And then, like, a couple games later, Ernie Witt goes sliding into second base into Paul Molitor's knee, breaks two ribs. Boom. So now you've got two of your best players out and now George Bell's got no protection in the batting order. You can pitch around George Bell. He's swinging at bad

pitches even though he ends up winning the MVP. It was the choke of all chokes. It was choke. Okay. No Fernandez, no wit. Manny Lee and Greg Myers and Charlie Moore were the replacements. It was agony. Now I live this every day, every day. And the final seven days was water torture. Okay. It was the worst. So that's what I have in my memory. And so with that in mind, let's go over this disaster of a game. Remember, it was just to get to another elimination game. It would have been Logan Gilbert pitching against Ross Stripling. Jordan Romano likely would be on fumes, right? Had they gone to Sunday because of all the pitches he threw Saturday? Let's get to that. So the Jays are

up 8-1 in the sixth. We know that. Tapia has just replaced Merrifield in left field because Witt got beamed. And nobody, nobody came to his rescue when it was obvious that it was intentional, that Houston had fucked things up badly. They weren't going to win the game. Now they're throwing at our guys. They hit Teoscar. They beamed. They fucking beamed him.

I mean, if I'm Merrifield, I run out to, I don't care. You cannot do that, man. So now they take Merrifield out, I guess, because he got beamed. Not because Tappy is a better defender. There's no way. Tappy is not a good defender. So why are you putting him out there in left field instead of Jackie Bradley Jr., a goal glover?

Had they kept Bradley Zimmer on the roster instead of Kikuchi, they could have put him in. That's what they're there for, defense. Hold a lead. Anyway, it cost the Jays because Tapia couldn't make a play on a popper, a blooper. He doesn't play. He's just not sharp like the other guys, okay?

He's an average, below average defender. Now the bases are loaded and then there's nobody out. It's eight to one, but, and Gosman's going along and he's run into a bit of trouble here. Not all his fault. The crowd's in a frenzy. He's at 95 pitches. Okay. But hang on a second. Carlos Santana, who doubled off the wall, just missing a home run his previous time up, is coming up. All right, so Gosman's dealing. He had the bases loaded. He gets two outs.

He got a strikeout. He got a pop-up. He deserves another shot at Santana. Santana's the number seven hitter in the lineup. Even if he hits a grand slam, you're still up by four runs. Instead, Schneider brings in Tim Meza. Okay? Meza gave up the judge, Homer, a few days

earlier. And that switches Santana over to the right side, where everybody knows he pounds lefty pitchers. He's 50 points high. I think he's 49 points higher from the right side in his career. That's significant. And Mazza's worried. So what does he do? First pitch, uncorks a wild pitch. So now it's 8-2. But you know what? That's all right. Because now you've got runners at second and third, and you don't have to deal with Santana.

You walk him. Because the number eight hitter is coming up, and it's going to be the pinch hitter, Dylan Moore. And who would you rather face, Dylan Moore or Carlos Santana? Okay? Veteran. Guy who has more home runs than anybody else in the ballpark in his career. Anybody else.

Most home runs of all the players, Carlos Santana. Okay? Pounds left-handed pitching. But no, no, no. You're going to strike him out, right? You're not going to strike him out, okay? You walk him. You get to Dylan Moore.

Moore can't hit Meza with a canoe paddle. So Meza is going to strike out Dylan Moore after walking Carlos Santana, and the Jays are going to lead 8-2 after six innings. What's that, Mike? It didn't happen that way? It didn't happen that way? They didn't walk Carlos Santana to get to Dylan fucking Moore? No!

This is where your rookie manager, and I'm not saying Charlie Montoya would have done this. I don't know. But John Schneider is a rookie manager, and he has a rookie manager brain cramp at the worst time. Doesn't call for the intentional pass. Let's maze a pitch to the guy that has more home runs than anybody in the ballpark. 278, 278 lifetime home runs.

Five more in the postseason. Are you kidding me? This is where you use, Mike. This is the class. If you were to have an illustration of where to use the intentional walk, this is it. Runners second and third. You're not putting the tying run on base.

You're not putting the go-ahead run on base. You're putting the fifth run on base. You already have eight runs. Come on. And that's if Dylan Moore hits a run. Ridiculous. You walk him. You don't compound the problem.

And they did. So here I'm beside myself right now because nobody else would want to be beside me. I'm fuming. I have this sick feeling. And I'm yelling at my TV, walk him. Pitch to Dylan fucking Moore. Walk him. Walk him. Please. It's a no brainer. I'm yelling at my television, but Schneider doesn't hear me. He doesn't order the intentional walk. Oh no. Maze of throes. There's a long drive and

it's gone. Three runs shot and everybody hangs their head and now it's eight to five and the ballpark is silent it's only the sixth anybody's like oh shouldn't have taken gosman out uh-oh mesa just like he gave up that home run to aaron judge the dome is a more and now now dylan fucking more comes to the plate and now tim mesa Mazin strikes out Dylan fucking Moore. Right there, Mike. Right there. That was it. Right there in my mind. Okay?

Gaussman's dealing. Remember, the bases were loaded. He wasn't getting hit hard. 95 pitches. Dude, it's the end of the season. You're telling me you can't go 110? 105? You're at 95 and you're dealing. So that's a huge mistake. That's a huge

mistake. But to bring in Meza, okay. And now he throws the wild pitch. So he doesn't know what the hell he's doing. Right off the bat, first pitch, wild pitch, moves the runner. You have to. First base is open. You can't let a guy like that beat you. Anyway, you're still up by three, right? Next inning, Mein gets an out. Then Jimmy Garcia comes in, bang, bang, two more outs. And it's 8-5 going to the bottom of the seventh. And then Danny Jansen gives us an insurance run. And we're up 9-5 going to the eighth, 9-5.

So Jimmy Garcia comes back out, right, because he only threw seven pitches. He comes back out, right? No, no, it's Anthony Bass. Okay. We're up by four runs. Bass is pitching, okay? But he gets into trouble. Why does he get into trouble? Because Tappy is playing left field. Not Jackie Bradley Jr. Not Bradley Zimmer. Not, I don't care, Tavon Biggio. It's, it's Tappy on left and he can't make a play on a catchable ball. And soon it's 9-6, and there's nobody out, and there's two men on. And Jesus Christ, Schneider is bringing in Jordan Romano to get the final six outs.

This is a ballsy move. Ballsy. After putting Tappie out there defensively, after taking Gosman out after 95 pitches, he doesn't bring in Adam Simber. He doesn't bring in Zach Popp. He doesn't bring in Jose Barrios or Ross Stripling or Alec Manoa or Kikuchi. He brings in Romano. Panic move by Schneider?

I don't know about that. I was okay with it because Romano had been asked to get six outs on a couple of occasions earlier this year, and he did it. And he's an all-star. So he goes up, and first thing he does, he gives up a base hit. Now the bases are loaded. He's not used to this situation. He's not used to coming in with runners on base and having to get six outs. But still, he's Jordan Romano, right? Then he strikes out a hobbling Santana. Then he strikes out an overmatched Dylan fucking Moore again. And then that blooper to left center. Okay. The one everyone's going to, oh no, like the Buckner ball going through the legs, you know, even though that was different, it was the world series. And anyway, it's still, it's one of those things. Oh no,

no. The suspended animation. How long was the ball in the air for? Okay. I've been going over this like it's the Subruder film, scrutinizing every frame. Number one, Tapia sure wasn't going to get it. He was watching it. Should have been back in the play up. And since Jackie Bradley Jr. wasn't in the game defensively, and it was a banged up George Springer,'s playing deep but has a knack for diving catches and Bo Bichette who was prepared to go flat out to make the play without any regard for an outfielder who might be hell-bent on making a circus catch coming directly in Springer had to take an indirect route to the ball because at the last second he saw that Bo was headed into into his path so Springer had to alter his path.

Now, did Springer yell, I got it, I got it? I didn't hear. I didn't hear anyone ask him. I never heard. Nobody talked to Springer afterwards. We didn't even know if he was being evaluated, nothing. But he's coming in full speed. Did he go, I got it, I got it?

Does an outfielder do that when he's going to make a diving play? I don't know. I don't think so. But I didn't hear. Did Bo hear him? Should Bo have peeled off even if he didn't hear Springer, knowing, thinking that Springer was going to be coming in and make one of his patented diving catches?

Should Tapia have made a play that would have prevented the tying run from scoring? Had he not should have come over and backed the play up? So when that ball did bounce or something weird happened, he's right there to prevent the tying run from scoring. The answer is no, no, yes, and yes. Everybody screwed up there. The dome was eerily silent. The game was now tied. The huge lead evaporated before our eyes. It took an eternity of eerie silence before Springer got carted off and JBJ finally replaced him. A bit late, but we're still tied. But you knew, Mike, everybody knew. Buck Martinez and Pat Tabler knew because in the eighth inning, Bo walks with one out. Now that's the go-ahead run. I know we just blew a lead, but that's the go-ahead run, and it's the fucking eighth inning.

The fans are like, because they're tired. And why are the fans tired? Because they'd be getting up every time a Blue Jays pitcher gets two strikes on a hitter cheering for the strikeout. Everybody gets up and, whoa, we won a strikeout. This is the mentality now. So all this that you were doing in the first inning and the second and third inning, every time a Blue Jay pitcher got two strikes,

now you got no energy left. You're spent. The fans are all spent. We're all spent. Okay? And Buck hardly says anything. He doesn't go, oh, the tying run is on, and Bo's got good speed.

Look, it's coming up. Hey, ho. They got Vladdy Guerrero, and we got Alejandro Kirk coming up. Two of the best hitters in the league. They're coming with Bo. It's a go-ahead run. It's the eighth inning.

We can still win. Nothing. Not a fucking thing. Hey, Tabby, tying run on base. We can win this. Nothing. Crickets. And then what happens?

Then Bo steals second. And now he's in scoring position. Vlade and Kirk are coming up. Hey-ho, we got the go-ahead run. Eighth inning, Blue Jays. A base hit, and we take the lead. No more rhythmic clapping from the fans. They're done.

They're spent. Nobody can raise their arms anymore because they were cheering for those strikeouts in the first inning. Yeah, let's go. No, no wave. No, faith. By this time, everybody was was clapped out high-fived out sitting on their hands because they had already chewed their nails down to the wood everyone was numb okay i don't even think they were still serving beer really on the eighth they should have been so when vladdy and

kirk both grounded out with the go-ahead run in scoring position, it seems nobody was alarmed. Like we had accepted this as fact. It wasn't going to happen. Nobody was outraged. Nobody was shaking their fists. How can you guys not drive in runs? What the hell's the matter with you? Especially from the night before when they had zero runs,

swinging at everything. And then these fuckers like Stephen King, this fucking horror writer, the author, making jokes about, oh, the blowjays. That's why they call them the blowjays and shit like that. Well, it just, you know. But hey, it's okay. They were still tied.

It's a tie game. And what happens is in the ninth inning, Romano's out there again. You got his, he's, He's thrown like 22 pitches. He gives up a double, and then he gives up a deep fly ball. And then with two outs, Adam Fraser is like, he's like, I know Romano's going to throw me that slider. I know he's throwing the slider. He's throwing me, and he's waiting on the slider,

and he drills that slider into right field. Another double. Mariners lead 10-9. And now Romano gets pulled at 29 pitches. And that was it. That's the last thing we saw. I had to leave the game. Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory

is something Toronto fans have gotten used to. But I'm convinced, Mike, that if you walk Santana with first base open and pitch to Dylan fucking Moore, you're 99.3% out of the inning. You win that game. You win Sunday, stripling out Duels. What's his name? And you're playing Houston right now. Right now, you're playing Houston.

Instead of golfing and watching Seattle, we're going to go down three straight to Houston. Boom, boom, boom. and watching Seattle. We were going to go down three straight to Houston. Boom, boom, boom. And the aftermath was, oh, God, fire Schneider. Get rid of Bo.

No, that's the knee jerk. Of course, you're upset. You're out to blame someone. That's the way we are. Whose fault? Who? Whose fault was that? Springer's fault.

Bo should have never tried for that. What the hell was going on? Why were you playing? Come on. That's baseball, man. However, John Schneider's major league inexperience, combined with the inability of the players to execute properly, that led to that loss and subsequent elimination.

Okay? I mean, you can't. But, I mean, Schneider, he's ultimately the manager. You made the calls. You were the one who, Schneider, he's ultimately, you're the manager, you made the calls. You were the one who said, no, let's pitch to Santana. Coach, you got first base open. Nope, nope, I know. Let's pitch to Santana.

Dylan fucking Moore is on deck as a pitch hitter. Nope. Okay. But have you seen the numbers? Have you seen Santana's numbers as a right-handed hitter against lefties? Have you? Remember what he did in his previous at-bat? He almost hit it out against.

That's why you replaced Cosman. And don't even get me started. Game one, they couldn't hit Luis Castillo, right? They were anxious. They were undisciplined at the play. What happened to this team? What happened to this team, Mike? Oh, to Oscar. Boy, he knows the strike zone.

Hey, and Vlade, boy, look at that. Oh, they don't expand the zone. No, no, no, they're such good hitters. Did you know, Mike, that Vlade and Bo and Teoscar were first, fourth, and 16th in the major leagues in grounding into double plays? In the majors, first, fourth, and 16th. You know what that tells me, Mike? It tells me they're undisciplined.

It tells me they want to swing at bad pitches rather than walk. That's what it tells me. That, yeah, they can hit the ball. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But they don't pay enough attention. They don't pay enough. They're too excited about trying to hit a ball that's tough to hit rather than taking a pitch. And all this talk about, oh, they're much better. They don't. Take a look at the walks. I

don't have the numbers in front of me, but I'll bet you none of those three guys walked, I don't know, maybe Vladdy had over 50 walks. But to Oscar, no, he doesn't walk. Bo doesn't walk. I mean, Oscar now, he doesn't walk. Bo doesn't walk. I mean, you know, their on-base percentages are, yeah, like 330. That's not good enough, man. You've got to be on base more often than that. You can't be doing that.

And then in game two, man, you know, you got your manager making questionable calls. You got a bullpen that failed them. When you score nine runs, you should win. So that's sort of my take on that game on the game okay that was awesome by the way so thank you it was worth the wait worth the six days i waited for that that was tremendous and you made a lot of great points a lot of great points a lot of thoughts so one thing is in on the youtube channel in game game one, should we have, you know, let Manoa pitch further into that game to preserve the bullpen for games two and three? Like, do you think...

I thought Manoa was pitching amazing. I mean, really. I thought he was pitching great. I mean, first inning thing, sure, jitters, whatever. He couldn't have command. But then after that, he was terrific. But I just thought that Jays were so undisciplined. They were so anxious to get those runs back.

And the way that this team does it is with home runs. They want to hit home runs. They're swinging for the fences, right? And as much as I like to say, yeah, we can play good small ball, they didn't. And even down the stretch, Mike, there wasn't a time where I said, ah, this team is great. They're getting better.

I never got that feeling. I just didn't get that feeling. So when people were like, oh, we're shocked at the Blue Jays. Yeah, okay, shocked that any team blows a seven-run lead. That's shocking. But come on, take a step back. Are you really shocked? How many games did they win this year?

One more than last year. One more game than last year. And they ended up playing two playoff games this year. Last year they played zero playoff games. Right? Is it a step up from Montoya? Yeah, because go back to 2020 and that half season, that whatever season where they had a playoff game,

whatever you want to call it, and you pulled Matt Shoemaker, go back to that. Right. So you've got managers that have made incorrect decisions, inexperienced managers that, you know, might have saved you a game, might have done. Now, I have a silly question, but are we sure John Schneider makes these calls, like to take Gausman out, for example? Like, is it perhaps there's analytics at work

and there's some egghead making the decision based on analytics? Ultimately, the manager makes a decision. A lot of guys go with their guts. They don't just look at a book, okay? And John Schneider didn't look at a book because if you looked at a book, he'd say the play here is to walk the dangerous hitter with a base open and pitch to the guy who's not nearly as dangerous, who ultimately ended up striking out. He struck the dude out. He was totally overmatched against Meza. And Schneider's got to go, all right, overmatched against Meza.

Right. And Schneider's got to go, all right, I'd rather put Santana over there, drop seven runs, and pitch to this guy. It's a simple thing. What a series of errors. Okay, and I have a question about the bloop double

that ended up tying this game. And again, like you, it is like the Zapruder film. I've watched it a hundred times now. Let's assume for a minute that Springer did not call off Bo Bichette because if Springer called it... No, see, again, in in a play like that unless you're sure you can make that play you're sure you're not calling for you're just running and hoping like hell you don't run into somebody

but the short and it's happened before it's happened before not just with the Jays but with lots of teams in the heat of the moment as you're chasing it Mike you've done this before you're like can I get to this ball can I get to this ball and in your mind you're like can you take a quick glance no you can't right you got your eye on the ball you don't know where the other guy is you're hoping he's not going to run into you right because the outfielder always has priority right and he's going full bore until he hears i got it from somebody else right right if he doesn't hear i got it from somebody else. Right. Right. If he doesn't hear, I got it from somebody else, he keeps on going. Right.

And Bo is going back and he's not, he doesn't think he has it, so he can't go, I got it, I got it, I got it. Right. He's running, waiting to hear Springer go,

I got it. Right. Neither guy hears the other guy go, I got it, because neither guy thought he could get it with certainty. Right.

So there are a lot of... But Springer did alter his. Springer might have gotten it. Yes. Okay? He might have made that play. Right. But he noticed at the last second that he had to take a more circuitous route

to where the ball was going to be. And Bowe was going back. And Bowe almost got it, too. Bowe's leap was just, oh, my. It was just out of his reach. So imagine how tantalizing that ball must have appeared to Bo, right? And to Springer at the same time. And to Springer, if Bo peels off, if he gets called off at the last second.

But as Springer is running, he's thinking, you know, Bo might have that ball he might you know what do you do right right everything that could go wrong went wrong my goodness okay now you you made the great point uh you're up you're up by what is it eight one so you're up you're up by seven runs why put tapia in there for his bat when at that point it should be all about defense right you've got the seven run lead it's an elimination game you need to win well Tapia in that regard Tapia is uh becomes a pinch hitter or a pinch runner but not a defensive replacement right Tapia is usually the guy who if he starts he's going to get replaced in the late innings by Zimmer by Jackie Bradley Jr. right move guys around now this nonsense about that I hear from people going, oh, so-and-so, Teoscar never plays left fielder. This is bullshit.

An outfielder is an outfielder. You can catch a fly ball, right? Now, granted, being a center fielder, it's different to play a corner. Of course, the ball's curving away from you more. It's different. You have less room. There's walls. But come on.

All these guys have played this. They've all played different positions. They've played, oh, I've never played left fielder. I don't know what to do. Stop it with this. These are professional ballplayers, right? And you know that Remy El Tapia is not the type of a guy, you don't see him again, oh, I'm totally confident of him making the play, throwing to the right base,

being able to get to the ball. He's a, you know, you get a little nervous when he's circling under a ball, right? So that's why you have Jackie Bradley Jr., Gold Glover. That's why you had Zimmer. He kept on the roster for almost the whole season. You got him back, but he hits 130. But he's a tremendous defender.

And in a short series, you didn't need Kikuchi. You weren't going to use Kikuchi in any of the three games. You just weren't. You weren't, okay? So why would they have him there the old what if we're up you wouldn't throw up by seven runs well if that's the case why didn't you bring takuchi in with the score eight to one instead of mesa if you had him on the run anyway well i mean it hindsight is 2020 obviously that everybody knows that but looking back like the fact that

we had tapia out there instead of jackie bradley j 8-1 game, to me, in hindsight, is a bit of a what the heck. Now, Kevin, Canada Kev is watching. There were three plays. There were three plays. The Tapia, if he makes one of the three plays, one of the three, we'd probably get out of that. So many mistakes. And you know what?

I will say as a fan who watched every minute of these two games, by the way, this is the most counting of the chickens I've ever done, I think. Well, we'll talk in a minute about game seven in 2013 for the Maple Leafs, which I think was a bigger collapse than this one. But I counted those chickens so hard. It was 8-1. I was already trying to figure out, okay, if this happens, this is the time we'll eat the dinner

at my mom's house on Sunday. We were the same thing. We were the same. But I think all Jays, and I think- 407 game on Sunday, what time are you serving the turkey? Oh, yeah, but we went to, everyone did. But I think that's why the dome was eerily silent. It's like everybody counted those chickens,

and then they're like, oh, shit, they didn't hatch yet. And then I think that's also what Buck and Tabby were going through. I think they were also making plans for game three. Once Springer went down and then he tried to exhort the fans on, like from the back of a car. So sad, right? Like, come on, come on, fans. We're not, it's tied.

We're not out of it. Come on. Like, that was like, ugh. You're already dead. Yeah. So here's what, so now here's what we got. Here's the deal free agency begins first of all once the world series ends right like you could sign with your team now

whatever but once the world series ends there's a five-day period before free agency begins and in those five days you go teams are allowed to put qualifying offers out to their existing uh players free agents whatever um and try to negotiate something in that period. And then after that, total free agency, go and sign with any team that you want to. Like, off you go. So this is where the Jays have to be active. The way they have been the last how many years? Were you Springer

Simeon? Right? Yeah, they're active. They've been impressive. Yeah. No, not Simeon. Simeon was only here for a year, so he wasn't a free agent. What am I thinking? Well, Gaussman came in to replace Robbie Ray. Right.

You got Gaussman. Again, so you've got Robbie Ray. So you've got these guys that you've signed as free agents, right? And you've made trades for. So priority number one, you've got to have a power arm in the bullpen. At least one. A guy that can produce swings and misses. We don't have that guy.

We got Romano, but the rest of the bullpen needs those big 100-mile-an-hour power arms. That's the priority. Well, that was one thing, watching the Mariners bullpen throw in 102-mile-an-hour heat. What good did that do them in the Houston series, eh? They were terrible, that bullpen. Like, oh, my God, terrible, right? And that's the thing is, when you see it, like, terrible, that bullpen. Like, oh my, terrible, right? So you just, and that's the thing is when you see, like, talk about high leverage.

When a relief pitcher gives up a run or a home run, a relief pitcher, it's like, oh my God, he hasn't done this all year long. You know, these guys all have whips of like, you know, around one or under one. They strike out more than there are innings pitched. So you have to have a couple of those guys. We don't have those guys in the bullpen,

unless Nate Pearson down in the Dominican develops a, you know, 100-mile-an-hour in the strike zone with movement type of pitch. Then you could, you know, a guy like that, or Julian Merriweather if his arm doesn't fall off. Anyway, priority number two, you need a shortstop and a center fielder. So that's two. You have to have a shortstop and a center fielder that are defensively sound and can hit the ball

too, right? Those are two key positions. You've already got lots of catchers and you can use another catcher too, a veteran catcher. You know, you need defense up the middle and that is catcher, shortstop, second base, center field. You have to have it. And if you notice,

prime example was what happened with Springer and with Bowe. You just, you have to have it you have to have it and if you notice uh prime example was what happened with springer and with bow you just you got to have you got to have great you have to have great fielders in those positions well you mentioned sorry i'm sorry uh you mentioned in the past bo bichette's naughty major league baseball shortstop at least not a playoff successful team okay so and on that play i, I was actually thinking of those words and everything. So you're saying move him to second base. Right. Exactly. Now he's going to get his back up about it.

When they brought in Simeon, who was a much better shortstop than Bowe, Simeon had to play second base. I think they knew they were only going to have him for a year anyway, Simeon, but they didn't want to upset Bowe. They should have. What they should have done was they should have, you know, in hindsight, moved Bo to second. But second base at the time, Biggio was your second baseman,

and you had some depth at second base. And anyway, why move Bo if he's doing okay at shortstop? Okay, so here's what you do. You need a new shortstop. You need a new center fielder. You move Bo to second. You move Springer to right or even left field. I don't care if he goes in the way, couldn't give a shit. He can be a DH, he can be a left fielder, don't know about his elbow. And he's like 32, 33 years old, man.

You know what happens to outfielders around that age, especially center fielders. So go get a couple of quality defenders to take their places. Number three, your manager, whoever he may be, and John Schneider, not a lock. You know, someone says to you, you want to three, your manager, whoever he may be, and John Schneider, no lock. You know, someone says to you, you want to win? You want to win a World Series now? Now in the next couple of years? Maybe you don't want to have a manager that's learning on the job. Maybe. I don't know.

And by the same token, John Schneider could get offers from other teams. Other teams could say, hey, we'd love to have you. You'd be great with our young player. We think you're terrific. Other teams could say, hey, we'd love to have you. You'd be great with our young player. We think you're terrific. So whoever the manager is must insist on the fundamentals being followed,

completely followed, fundamentals of the game, and a greater focus on the game by the players while the game is going on. Okay? You have to have a higher level of professionalism. If you're going to win, watch these other teams, watch them. Oh, they celebrate. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. But there's a level of professionalism, right? They know the game. They don't make mistakes the way the Blue Jays can make mistakes. Is this about the home run jacket? This is about it. No, no, no. This isn't the home run jacket. This is while the game is going on,

the people that concentrate the most on the game and look for little things, that's scouting, as opposed to looking at the iPads. So what did I do wrong? Which you're fine. That's great. But I like it when they're engaged in the game.

I'm watching other teams during the playoffs. They're all into it. Right? They're all into it, right? They're all into it. There's a time to goof around. There's a time to be paying attention because you're looking for any edge, Mike. You're looking for any advantage, any tell, any bit of knowledge that can help you win.

And yeah, you can have fun playing the game, maybe cut back on the home run jacket and the sunflower seeds and the predictable drenching of Hazel May and arash madani after every fucking victory so yeah okay mike yeah i'm talking to vlad take charge of your team everybody looks up to you stop stop with you know the home run jacket i don't have a problem with the drenching stuff like stuff like that it's fun and all that type of thing. But it kind of makes you look like a high school team, man. You know? And if you're not winning, you can't be doing stuff like,

yeah, last year was the trailer. This year's the movie. Right? Right. You want to talk the talk. You got to walk the fucking walk. So here's my suggestion to the Blue Jays. Take it for what it's worth. You got trade chips. You got Teoscar fucking walk. So here's my suggestion to the Blue Jays. Take it for what

it's worth. You got trade chips. You got Teoscar Hernandez. He's arbitration eligible. Probably cost you 14 million in arbitration. And then he becomes a free agent the following season. That's a lot of dough. 14 mil. And he's going to walk as a free agent. You got Lourdes Gurriel Jr. Disappointing year. Injury prone guy. He signed through 2023. He's arbitration eligible in 2024. He's a free agent in 2025. Some teams would be interested in Lourdes Gurriel Jr. You got Danny Jansen. I know, I know. Hang on. He's arbitration eligible now. So what's it going to cost you in arbitration? $6 million, $7 million, $5 million? I don't know. He's a free agent in 2025. Valuable guy to trade. Okay. You got Beau Bichette. Maybe you don't move him to second. Maybe you go, what can we get for this guy? Arbitration eligible now.

So what, $10 million in arbitration? He's got a little over two years of service. Free agent, not till 2026. You got Alejandro Kirk, who's arbitration eligible, not until 2024. And he's a free agent in 2027. How would that be for a long-term get? You kidding me? You don't think teams are interested in Alejandro Kirk? For sure they are.

We got lots of trade chips. Here's some free agents to pursue. You want an outfielder? You want a center fielder? You want a left-handed hitter? A good defender? Guys who've got some power? Brandon Nimmo of the Mets.

Okay? Move Springer to right. Move him to left. Depends on what happens with Teoscar. You got shortstops. Trey Turner of the Dodgers. Okay? Carlos Correa of Minnesota.

Dansby Swanson of Atlanta. And Xander Bogarts of Boston. You got shortstops. You want short of Boston. You got shortstops. You want shortstops? We got shortstops, and they're all better than both. You want a catcher, a veteran catcher? How about this guy for Houston, Christian Vasquez? Okay, hell of a catcher.

Platooning with Martin Maldonado? Man, he'd be great. You can never have enough catching depth, and then you can make some trades. Or Wilson Contreras from the Cubs. He's going to go. It'll cost, but you got to spend the dough. So those are the guys and any trade you can make. So here's my fantasy lineup. Have these fantasy lineup for 2023. First base, Vladdy. We'll be back bigger and better than ever. You watch. This guy's got a lot to prove. Second base, Bo. Third base, Chappie. Shortstop, Trey Turner. Left fielder, George Springer. Center fielder, Brandon Nemo. Right

fielder, I know, Tay Oscar. Because I think he could be a great player if he stays healthy. I think he could be fabulous. Catcher, Gab Moreno or Wilson Contreras or Christian Vasquez. One of those, okay? That's a veteran, veteran catcher and a young guy. Kirk is your DH. Your pitcher starters are Manoa, Gosman, Barrios. Ryu comes back from, yeah, yeah, and maybe Kikuchi, maybe Mitch White. Maybe not what we saw this year, but you never know.

Your relief pitchers, you got Romano, you got Garcia. You take your pick after that. You could have a whole new bullpen. Your utility players, Biggio, Espinel, Merrifield, Otto, Lopez, maybe Carlos Santana. A switch hitter off the bench can play first base if you need him, you know. Or you'll come over. Another veteran guy.

I'm just saying. Wow. Okay. Hep'm just saying. Wow. Hebsey, that was fantastic. Now, I need to ask you about something that the podcast listeners won't know about at this point, but the people watching on YouTube know about it. But Canada Kev points it out. He wants to know, what statement are you making?

Because on the couch behind you, there's a Blue Jay blanket that is upside down. What are you saying there, Hebsey? It would be akin to flying the flag at half mast. I can't have, there is no mast. So the only way I can do it is to put it upside down. That's kind of the way I think things are kind of going in Blue Jay land right about now. The way I'm feeling, kind of a little bit upside down.

And you're free to express yourself as you are. Absolutely. Just remember Mike, since day one of this franchise, since day one, I followed them in, in various capacities, right.

As a fan, as a reporter, as someone you, uh, they, they expected me to be the most, I am the most critical because I love them the most or have followed them the most.

You give a shit. I'm entitled to be, yeah, critical. And I always have been, but the best fans, the most loyal fans, I guess, are the ones who are entitled to be critical. Okay, so before we- They put their heart and soul and life into a team. And yeah. You've earned it, buddy. Now, before we talk about the and life into a team and yeah you've you've earned it buddy

now before we talk about the rest of the major league baseball i just want to know like a yes or no question would you bring back john schneider as your uh manager next season you would have to i would have to look at the available pool of managers if i want to win i i can't assume that John Schneider is the guy just by saying, all right, guys, go do your thing. And,

and, and I don't know, is he too buddy buddy with this team? Do you need, I mean, that's up to, to Shatkins. That's it.

That's right. Now that's a good point to those guys. That's up to those. Cause they said, Hey, how come you, you, you stuck,

you know, the, they were asking about these moves and he's like, he's loyal to his players. He puts the trust in his players to execute. Well, if that's the case, then I can manage this team. You know what I mean? Like, it's like no one ever got fired for buying IBM.

That was the old expression, right? I think experience plays a big, I think you have to look at a guy like Scott Service who's been like, it's his seventh year managing Seattle. It was a bad team he took over and it took time and he had to develop them. And if that's what you're looking for with this team, seven years until they mature, good luck to you.

But I don't think the fan base is going to accept that. So they did accept Scott Service because he was a rookie manager and he was a young team, and, you know, he had paid his dues. You know, John Schneider has paid his dues, but I don't know. To me, it's like you got a great racehorse and your jockey is a bug boy. All right. He's an apprentice jockey.

I say for sure. John Schneider is back as manager next season. I think it's a, it's going to happen for sure, but that's just my, my speculation here. But last thing here, but what was worse?

I want to know your thoughts on this, this eight one collapse in a must win game that the Jays just went through or, uh, the Maple Leafs blown a four, one lead with 10 minutes left against Boston. Oh no, the Leafs blown the four. Yeah. I think no doubt. You're talking on game seven of a playoff series, a chance to eliminate your opponent. This was not an unlimited J J's.

Didn't have a chance to eliminate them. Had they, had they been up one love and that was the way to put the hammer down, and then they ended up losing the series. That's different. Right. But in that moment, just that game? No. And just strictly,

because you watch a lot of hockey and baseball. It was the sixth inning. It wasn't like they got down. They had a seven-run lead going to the eighth or ninth. It was the sixth. Also, seven runs in baseball is an easier accomplishment than getting four goals in hockey. Look what happened to Seattle a couple of days later.

Come on. Big leads are never safe in the playoffs especially. And that brings us to the end of our 1,128th show. You can follow me on

Twitter. I'm at Toronto Mike. Mark Hebbshire is at Hebsey Man Our friends at Great Lakes Brewery Are at Great Lakes Beer Palma Pasta is at Palma Pasta Sticker U is at Sticker U Moneris is at Moneris Raymond James Canada

Are at Raymond James CDN EPRA are at EPRA Canada. Sorry, EPRA underscore Canada. Don't forget the underscore. Ridley Funeral Home are at Ridley FH. And Canna Cabana are at Canna Cabana underscore. See you all later today when I have a special episode that's all about Spirit of the West. And it's just like mine And it won't go away Cause everything is Rose and green

Well you've been under my skin For more than eight years It's been eight years of laughter And eight years of tears And I don't know what the future Can hold or do For me and you But I'm a much better man for having known you

Oh, you know that's true because Everything is coming up Rosy and green Yeah, the wind is cold But the smell of snow Wants me to date And your smile is fine And it's just like mine

And it won't go away Cause everything is Rosy and great Well, I've been told That there's a sucker born Every day But I wonder who Yeah, I wonder who

Maybe the one who doesn't realize There's a thousand shades of grey Cause I know that's true, yes I do I know it's true, yeah I know it's true, yeah I know it's true How about you? I'm picking up trash and then putting down rogues And they're brokering stocks, the class struggle explodes

And I'll play this guitar just the best that I can Maybe I'm not and maybe I am I'll play this guitar just the best that I can. Maybe I'm not and maybe I am. But who gives a damn? Because everything is coming up rosy and gray. Yeah, the wind is cold, but the smell of snow warms me today. And your smile is fine, it's just like mine And it won't go away Cause everything is rosy and gray

Well, I've kissed you in France and I've kissed you in Spain And I've kissed you in places I better not name And I've seen the sun go down on Chaclacour But I like it much better going down on you Yeah, you know that's true Because everything is coming up Rosy and green Yeah, the wind is cold

But the smell of snow Warms us today And your smile is fine And it's just like mine And it won't go away Cause everything is rosy now Everything is rosy Yeah, everything is rosy and everything is rosy and gray.