Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Jarvis Church: Toronto Mike'd #985

Episode Date: January 17, 2022

In this episode of Toronto Mike'd, Mike chats with Jarvis Church a.k.a. Gerald Eaton about his band The Philosopher Kings, discovering and producing Nelly Furtado and K'naan, Da Kink in My Hair, his tribute to Bill Withers and more. Toronto Mike'd is proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, StickerYou, Ridley Funeral Home and Patrons like you.

Welcome to episode 985 of Toronto Mic'd. Proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery. A fiercely independent craft brewery who believes in supporting communities, good times, and brewing amazing beer. Order online for free local home delivery in the GTA. for free local home delivery in the GTA. StickerU.com. Create custom stickers, labels, tattoos, and decals for your home and your business. Palma Pasta.

Enjoy the taste of fresh homemade Italian pasta and entrees from Palma Pasta in Mississauga and Oakville. Ridley Funeral Home. and entrees from Palma Pasta in Mississauga and Oakville. Ridley Funeral Home. Pillars of the community since 1921. And patrons like you. Become a Toronto Mike patron today at patreon.com slash Toronto Mike. I'm Mike from tor Mike dot com. And joining me this

week is Jarvis Church. How are you doing? Good. How are you? I'm good. Good. You all set for a fun little chat here? Absolutely. Quick question about how people address you, because, of course, I want to call you Jarvis,

but, I mean, Jarvis Church. You know, should I be calling you Gerald? How would you like to be addressed? Jarvis Church sounds just fine. You're the first Jarvis, then, I've had on the program ever that wasn't my offspring. My youngest son is named Jarvis.

Nice. Good name. And I have a note for you off the top. This is kind of timely because on Thursday we're resurrecting a series of Toronto Mic'd episodes we called Pandemic Fridays but we're bringing them back as Toast.

So Toast debuts Thursday, and my co-hosts for Toast are Cam Gordon and Stu Stone. And when I tweeted that Jarvis Church was coming on Toronto Mic'd, Stu wrote me and said, please say hi for me. So I need to know, are you friendly with Stu Stone? I mean, the name doesn't ring a bell. say hi for me. So I need to know, are you friendly with Stu Stone? Um, I mean, the name doesn't ring a bell. I might know him if I see him. He was

rolling with Saget, as they say, with Jamie Kennedy back in the day, and he's like a Thor. Does this ring a bell? Eli and Jamie, those two, and Stu, those two and Stu. Yes, now I know. Yes, I do know now.

Actually, I met him down here in L.A. He's kind of part of that kind of Toronto crew with Jamie and Eli. Sure. I'll show you. Since we're on Zoom, I'll show you really quickly. But Blowing Up was the name of the Jamie Kennedy-Stu Stone album that came out. I don't know. We're going back now, but

maybe a decade or so ago. Coincidentally, one of the big jams on this album was called Rolling with Saget and it had a cameo from Bob Saget. So it's actually been getting a lot of attention lately because Bob sadly

passed away suddenly. Right, right. Okay, cool. Fun note too, so that was from Stu, but a gentleman named Angelo V says one of my wide receivers in high school.

Yes, yes. Angelo was my quarterback, of course. I totally remember that. What a world we live in what school was this because he says you were 1987 north york champions yeah a y jackson okay see it blows my mind man i'm gonna say this real quick because i'm about to hit a thousand episodes and uh i was thinking about the 10 years I've been doing this.

And it's just wild to me that, you know, this artist who I'm a big fan of, you know, yourself, Jarvis Church, can Zoom with me. And I can tweet about it. And I can hear from your quarterback in 1987, your quarterback, like who said you were one of the best wide receivers in high school and you won the championship that's wild man uh wow yeah there's a he's got a special place in my heart for sure there's a strong bond between quarterback and wide receiver so back in 87 uh if you won your like i guess if you win north york does that mean you go to the like the metros or something do you go to the the metro? How did it work back then? Because the Metro Bowl

was what we'd call now the Toronto champion, but back then, of course. So how did it work? Did you play for the metro championship? No, I think that was it. I think we just won it. Yeah, I think that was the final game. I mean, I could be wrong,

but I'm pretty sure. It was a really dramatic game too. Like I caught a big pass to set up the, you know, the, the game winning touchdown, the next play. So, and my dad was there and it was,

it was all really, really, uh, exciting stuff. Was there a moment where you said, do I choose music or the CFL? Was the Argonauts calling? Yeah, no, I don't think so.

But yeah, I was good at football. I started young. I was the youngest starter. I started in my first grade 10. I was starting. That was a really big deal for me.

Amazing. Johnny Dovercourt was on earlier this month. He kind of covers music and has a podcast about the local music venues in Toronto. But his name is Johnny Dovercourt, of course. He adopted the name because Dovercourt is a street in Toronto, as you know. And you, of course, adopted a couple of parallel streets as your handle, if you will, Jarvis Church. So do you want to share quickly, like off the top,

the origin story for the handle Jarvis Church? Yeah. You know, I was always sort of referred to as the guy from the Philosopher Kings. And I kind of liked having that little bit of anonymity where people aren't, you know, hollering at Gerald from across the street. So I wanted, like you say, a handle. And I lived between Jarvis and Church. I was in the merchandise loft at the time, which is like Dundas and Jarvis kind of thing, between Jarvis and church.

And yeah, so I remember it actually really clearly. I was with my buddy and we were driving along and we passed Jarvis. And I looked up, we passed church. I was like, I'm going to name myself Jarvis Church. It was the first time I just sort of thought of that as a name. And, you know, I've always been really proud to rep Toronto and really proud of my city. And I thought, you know, that's a cool handle

that'll kind of like pay a little tribute to Toronto. Well, so long as you rock the name Jarvis Church, you can't really shake us. Like you're kind of stuck with us. Yeah, exactly. That's the way I like it. And by the way, you're in California right now, right?

So you missed a dump in a snowman. So as I speak to you here on January 17th, I gotta say, I'm pushing 50. I don't remember that much snow in one night than within, I woke up to this morning.

It was a lot, man. Yeah. I've been watching on Instagram. Trust me. I saw it. I may, I'll be honest with you.

Those snow storms really make me feel nostalgic. I've always liked snow storms. Um, I like everything about them. I really do. I like driving in snow storms. I like playing in snow. I just think it's just such a cool, cool thing when, when,

when a city gets blanketed like that. Well, you're really missing out then. Cause we sure, we sure got it. Perry Lefkoe saw your name, Jarvis Church, and hilariously wanted me to ask you if you know Gardner Westbound. Yeah. Love it. Shout out to Gardner Westbound. Yeah. Love it. Shout out to Gardner Westbound. All right, my friend, you mentioned the Philosopher Kings.

And although you've done a lot, we got some ground to cover here. Most people probably first discovered you from the Philosopher Kings. So would you mind going back maybe and just give us like the, the origin story on how the philosopher Kings came to be. And then also for those who didn't like take philosophy at university, share with us like where the, where the name comes from. Absolutely. Um, so we all were friends in high school. Um, that's myself and Jonathan and Jay Levine. We were sort of the founding members.

And then their buddy, Brian West. And then a couple guys that they knew from the university Craig Hunter was going to the jazz program at U of T and also James Bryan and we all got together really when we were really

young you know this is 1992 I guess 1992 and you know we always had sort of like I guess, 1992. And, you know, we always had sort of like, I guess, delusions of grandeur would be a great way to look at it, whether they were delusions or not. But we always, I think, thought very, we had really big dreams, big aspirations. And I was actually studying philosophy at University of Toronto. And, of course, the term philosopher kings was coined by Plato in one of his works called Allegory of the Cave, where he basically describes the perfect society where the rulers aren't generals or

some royal descent, but they're philosophers. So we coined the term philosopher kings, which would be the ideal rulers because they're so smart. I think we definitely thought we were so smart. I think that's one of the real

true connections with that name. We, we really kind of like always sort of felt like, you know, I don't know, like we just really felt, we felt really confident. We were really,

and we wanted to be really good, really good at our instruments, really good at writing, really good at our, you know, songwriting, everything that we did, we really sort of set a pretty high standard for ourselves. And it paid off.

We rehearsed for the first year, and then as soon as we sort of started playing shows, like it was our second or third show, we got a record deal, which was, of course, like when you're 21, you think that that's the end as opposed to the beginning. But yeah, so that's a little backstory on a philosopher. All right. I'm going to play a little bit of a philosopher king's jam and then I have more questions for you. So let's let's give this a minute here. Thank you. Sleep, my love Dream warm and hard and true In pieces, in colors

In a cloud of awkward blue Hold my hand Feel the things You tell no man Move through you So easy It's a knife That cuts me through And you bring me

Your charms In the cool of your Soft little hands So Jarvis, how does that sound to you? I'm always curious when a musician hears themselves It sounds good It sounds good, I was just sitting there thinking Man, this sounds good, it's like 25 years later It sounds good I'm glad to hear you say that

Because it sounds good to me But you know how artists sometimes are their own Sometimes you talk to an artist And they hear something from decades And they go oh i never liked that mix or i feel like we should have done this and uh i'm thinking damn like that's uh that's a top 40 hit in the states right uh it was yeah it was at the time when it came out um it's funny when i listen to that too it's taken me back to when we were recording it in the studio and a couple of little funny notes,

like part of that, like, you know, Philosopher King, you know, you know, sense of like, I don't want to call it sense of superiority, but just, you know, we really, like, at the time, our guitar player, James, who had been, like, you know, studying jazz, and he was, like, really sort of resistant against that wah guitar, which was a suggestion of our A&R, Mike Roth at the time. He's like, you know, you could use some like wah guitar

and some tambourine, you know, two really sort of like feel good sounds that most people love to listen to, but we were so dead against it because it was like tambourine, wah guitar, are you crazy? Those are things that, you know, like, you know, that are beneath us. But it's just it's

just really funny how how you start off you know that way with um with all these sort of like ideas and preconceptions and and then you know throughout my career i've just gotten more and more respect for simplicity and just uh um doing things that are expected and doing things that are familiar. It's really funny when I hear that now, thinking how difficult it was to do that. No, I love hearing those stories. In fact, bury me in any fun facts or mind blows that come to mind during this

chat. Just spit them into the microphone. You got it. You got it. It's like my currency currency my currency of choice so okay when that so i'm curious when we go back here and we're going back to 1996 so in 1996 when that song has uh has some success in the states like at that time are you thinking like uh okay here it comes because you mentioned that you keep referring to this like do you call it delusions of grandeur or is it just visions of grandeur i mean i guess visions of grandeur sure that's that's

that's fair i mean because i didn't mean to imply it was delusional but i just um i just think it was funny at how yeah like we were just expecting yeah sure international superstardom for sure and uh how like how vital like how important was it though for you guys to have the American success? So it's one thing to, okay, oh, I'm going to pick on any station here, but let's say Mix 99.9, which is actually no more. Like that station rebranded as Virgin 99.9. But let's say Mix 99.9, like that's one thing, right? That's like, you know, you're hearing it in the streets of Toronto and we're all loving it. But like how vital, how important was it for the Philosopher Kings to get that American success?

It was huge and it still is huge. I mean, the best way to understand it is that, you know, America's population is 10 times the size of Canada. And then there's sort of an exponential factor because hits in America get exported around the world. So American hits become English hits and Italian hits and French hits and, you know, South American hits. So a hit in America is not just 10 times larger. It's more like 100 times larger. So it was everything for us you know and when we got signed um i'll tell you a funny story too um like when we did our second album

which had all those hits like cry and hurts to love you and you know it was our biggest album we specifically went to philadelphia to record it with jo Niccolo, who was partners with the president of Rough House Records that was assigned to Columbia. And, you know, the idea was like, you know, we're in their family, we'll make the album down there, and then they'll release it in America. So everything was going great. We had all these great songs. And then one of the band members whose name I'll leave out for now got into this relationship with the secretary

there who was having an affair with the president of the company the one who yeah so they got into a big fight and there was all sorts of back and forth like full on conflict and then the philosopher kings they just they said okay guys you're done they dropped us sent us home and our album never got released in america um because one of the guys was you know screwing the president's mistress so

that was one of those and to be honest at the time we were like well screw them you know like we didn't even really connect it to that. We're like, oh, if they don't like it, screw them. It's their loss. But now it's 25 years later, and you're like, wow, what a different life we would all have if we had these hits blow up around the world, not just in Canada. So that's kind of like a little sad,

so close but so far story. So a couple of thoughts. One is, Jervis, that's bullshit. Yeah, right? I'm just like having like, that's just awful. Like you were, you know, this close to Hootie and the Blowfish money. Exactly, exactly. But to be honest i mean if i i mean a lot of my inspiration to start producing and working with people like nelly fratato and

kane on was the fact that i needed that money you know what i mean and i wasn't really we weren't getting it from the philosopher kings it was it was was Canadian money split six ways. So that's not even enough to buy a house. That's like not even enough to really buy a nice car. That's sort of just like, you know, you know, it's just, you gotta keep hustling. And I think that's one of the reasons why everybody in the band did keep hustling and there was Prozac and there was, uh, you know, Fifi Dobson and there was, you know,

all these other artists because like we were all real hungry and we're still hungry. We're still in the mix. We're still writing songs. We're still producing. We're still, you know, really trying to get over that. But when you had this, you know, unfortunate obstacle that was beyond your control, unfortunate obstacle that was beyond your control. What did that do to the band, though? These names you dropped, you dropped names like Nelly Furtado and Canaan,

and you dropped Prozac, and all these names I'm going to be bringing up in a moment, actually, because this is a fascinating history of the Philosopher Kings. But what happened to the band? What was the status of the band after that? But like I said, it's so funny because at the time we didn't we literally didn't even care we just brushed it off we were like screw them yeah um which is another sign of just when you're young and you're confident and you're like we don't need anybody we don't need american labels we don't even need america like that was sort of like but it's when you're older now and you look back and

you're like, wow, an extra 5 million will really be great right now. Um, that you, that you realize, you know, you're those opportunities, you know, they don't keep coming. And I think that one of the things you think of when you're young is that they're going to just keep coming. It's like, Oh yeah, well this is, this is going to be this opportunity and it's going to be this opportunity. And, and you look back and you realize, wow, you know, it takes a whole team. It takes a lot of people to, to set up an opportunity like that.

And, um, and then they, they don't keep coming. Would it be cool if I played a little more philosopher Kings? Absolutely. Yeah. All right. Here's another cut. And then actually there's even a third one I have loaded up because it's a cover, but I'll play this one first. Here, let's listen. Here we go. I'm the man, baby

That's what I am I'm a straight shooter With a master plan I am the man, baby That's why I'm here I am the man, yeah I am the man Yeah I am the man I'm a masculine cowboy

Rode the soul of the world Can I have your light? Can I have your might? Can I have your mics? I'll meet you. I am a radio soldier. Take a game at the world. Mothers and fathers, bring your daughters. Bring your girls.

I am a man, baby. That's what I am. I'm digging it, man. I really am. It's great. Thanks. It's great. So Jarvis, what are some, like, what are the musical influences in your life at this point? Like, who are you sort of emulating and inspired by?

emulating and inspired by? Well, right now, actually, I've just gotten started on working on a new album with K-Not. And yeah, I'm really into sort of like Afro beat, that sort of afro sound.

You know, I'm really like, and like K-Nan is obviously, you know, he's a hip hop MC, but he's obviously he's African, Somalian more specifically. But I'm really excited about kind of like introducing that sort of Afrobeat element to what he does. So that's kind of something that we're working on right now that's got me really excited. Love it. I got more questions about K-Nan in a moment here, but there's a song. Okay, so I grew up, I'm like a titch younger than you, but not much. I'm like a titch younger than you, but not much. And I grew up like anyone else watching Toronto Rocks or video hits,

and then much music showed up, and I was listening to a lot of 680 CFTR, I'd like to say, back in the early... So let me just play a little bit of one of your big jams, and then a quick chat about that, and then we've got to get to K-Nan, and I've got to get to the Nelly for Tottle stuff. So much to cover here, but this jam right here, we have to discuss. You don't know how to ease my pain You don't know You don't know how to ease my pain Don't you hear any voices crying

That's the sound of our love dying Or is it the rain? You don't know how to play the game And you cheat and you lie You make me wanna cry You make me wanna cry So naturally, I'm curious, were you a fan of the original? I was. Godland Cream.

Yes. That video blew my mind as a kid. I'm just saying, I don't know what effects they used on it, but the way the faces kind of blended into each other, then I would just be mesmerized by it. Like, that was the future to me. It was. Think about how ahead of its time it was.

Like, they didn't have computers to do that, right? It was mirrors or smoke. I don't know. They did something to make it happen. But, yeah, I remember that video. Amazing. Like, one of those like uh early like memorable videos you know uh and then i guess michael jackson got that's where he probably

got the idea for the black or white video yeah i think so too and again to let the listenership know uh this is this is your cover of cry and this this is on your album you referenced earlier, the 97 album, Famous, Rich, and Beautiful. And I was looking into this jam because I remember it being a pretty big hit, and it turns out it was a top 10 Canada, let me get the right chart here,

Canada's RPM top singles chart. This was a top 10. Yeah. Yeah, it's a big, a big, big tune for us for sure. And I'll be honest, that is like one of my favorite songs to play live. It just, it has this just feeling of euphoria.

The crowd loves it. I love it. Everybody's just like, ah, it feels so good. It feels so good when we do that one. I have a question that came in from Jovi. And before I ask Jovi's question,

what is the current status of the Philosopher Kings? Current status of the Philosopher Kings, I think finished. I think officially done. All right, so Jovi's question, I feel like I spoiled it. I should have just saved that question of mine. But Jovi says,

does he plan on ever getting back with his group, the Philosopher Kings? Yeah, not now. I don't really foresee that. We tried it not too long ago, and it didn't go very well, in my opinion. So it was really hard emotionally for me to you know obviously like it's not the like these people are my family like these these guys are my family so and even whether we fight or not it's not even that like we don't we don't fight we get along great it's not it's not that. It's just, it's more like, you know, me personally, where I'm at in my career,

I, when I make music, I want to have an idea of where it's going. Like, I have sort of like a, an idea in my head where I'm trying to get to. And when you're in a band, that doesn't really exist, especially with a band like ours, which is completely equal. So it's just, it's like water just making its way down a sidewalk you know it can go any direction um which is in one sense great because you come up with the stuff that you never could have planned but for me i guess just because i've been a producer and a songwriter so long now that like when i go to make music i kind of hear something in my head and I want to achieve that,

at least that genre or that style or that sound or whatever. And that just really wasn't possible with the band. You know, nobody like it was just like the day we started. Like you can't tell the guitarist what to do. You can't tell the piano player what to do. It's like everybody gets to just do their own part and nobody really gets to mute a section or change a section and it just ends up really not being something that i can get into anymore i guess so out of the ashes of the philosopher kings uh come some pretty amazing projects like before we get to your projects uh oh two things one is jovi had a part two i better

ask you real quick uh so jarvis what's your favorite philosopher king song for for jovi i think maybe you don't love me like you used to do i think that one that to me like with that amazing video we had with the snails and the insects and and just performing that one live it's just so like emotional and sexy and just like powerful it would always really just um sweep me away kind of thing so yeah i think that's probably one of my favorites good answer and cam brio uh would like me to ask you i'll read what he wrote me uh could you ask him about prozac did he ever listen does he like them and then he asks about uh any new material for philosopher kings but i think we already addressed that one so uh let's let the people know maybe give us a little 101 i know but not everyone listening knows like how is prozac related to

the philosopher kings people need to know how those dots are connected. So Prozac was the brainchild of Jason Veen, our bass player. And he got together with James Bryan, one of our guitar players, and they started this idea. And do I like the music? I mean, I was a little old for the music, to be honest. I mean, I

respected the music. I thought it was great what they were doing. And Prozac sold more than the Philosopher Kings ever did. And, you know what I mean? But it's just, obviously, at the time, we were in our early 20s, and Prozac fans were in their early teens, you know what I mean?

Maybe even younger. So the music didn't really speak to me, but like I said, I have a lot of respect for what they did and how successful it was and just how creative the whole idea was. I thought that was great. Yeah, I mean, catchy as all hell, but, you know, it's as deep as it sucks to be you. I know, I know, right?

Like, this is not exactly... Yeah, and that was the point, you know what I mean? Like, but I mean, obviously, like, I've always been into music that's a little bit more, you know, whatever, you know, but that was the point, you know what I mean? It was to create something that was really light and fun and, and,

you know, exciting, I guess. Yeah, sure. Absolutely. Now let's move on to some Jervis church projects. Can I play another song?

Yeah, of course. All right. Here's a bang. Here's a banger. You're beautiful, that's for sure You'll never, ever fade You're lovely, but it's not for sure I won't ever change And though my love is great

And though my love is true I'm like a bird I only fly away I don't know where my soul is I don't know where my home is And baby all I need for you to know is Whoa, Nelly. Yeah. That's Nelly Furtado. Okay, let's blow some minds here.

What does Jarvis Church have to do with Nelly Furtado? I discovered Nelly Furtado at a talent show in Toronto around 1998, I think, probably. And she was sort of, she was singing an original song at Lee's Palace. And I thought, wow, this girl's got something special, just a sincerity that she had in her delivery that really makes you feel what she's saying. And I approached her and then i asked my bandmate brian west to

help me produce her music and we did and the rest is history it all blew up everything was great great great yeah yeah i'll say um that's okay so this is when you guys adopt the handle track and field correct yeah okay so brian west and yourself uh both from the philosopher kings you are track and field and nelly furtado i think it was i don't know my source might be wrong i saw 1999 but bottom line is uh it was the honey jam showcase in uh in this fine city of toronto and it was it could have could have been 99 actually sure sure late 90s everybody man I don't know I've been so many questions but I guess you just and I can't imagine what this is like I suppose

you're at Lee's Palace and you hear this singer songwriter on stage and you're like she's got it right you know it when you hear it right and then it's amazing you could be a part of it so a woe nelly which was a which was a monster because it's got a couple some big big big hits on that including the one we're listening to right now but you ended up with a a grammy nomination for that uh that production yes i did that was really surreal. It's just, you know, it was one of those things where everything lined up and just went perfectly. I was thinking that after Won't Nelly, you know, I felt like we sort of created this world, this sonic world around this incredible artist, Nelly Furtado, who is an unbelievable songwriter. You know, she wrote all her own lyrics and Brian and I co-wrote some of the stuff with her.

But she was just an amazing writer. And she had this love of pop music, which is rare. A lot of times you have these artists that don't like anything on the radio and they're really critical of everything that everybody's listening to and they want to make music that doesn't sound like anything um but while we wanted to make something fresh at her core nelly loved popular music she loved like uh you know just just really you know real real great um hit songs and i think that you know having that um reference really sort of helped with its with its success i just wish we could have kept going like we we made this world woe nelly and then it's like it blew up and then like and then it's like the way it usually works is like once an artist blows up they start working with huge producers after that they don't really

go back to the people that they came up with that happens a lot um with with this she did but the catch was she she was like okay well i'll work with you guys again but i want to do the exact opposite of what you did before which was which was folklore youklore was a dark, brooding folk album. Won't Ellie was a happy, optimistic pop album. And we followed Nelly. She's the artist. She gets to pick whatever she wants to do, obviously. But the audience wasn't that into a brooding folk album

the same way they would have been into a well Nelly part two, three, four, five, and six, I think. Um, so that was a little frustrating.

What's your relationship like these days with Nelly Furtado? Um, I don't, we don't really talk. I don't think she talks. I don't think she's into me in music at all, really anymore. I think,

um, she just kind of, you know, but I do think that for her career i think one of the mistakes she made was to try to make try to reinvent herself on every album um so you had won't nelly which everybody loved everybody got and i remember my mom saying to me she was like you know when i hear that song i'm like a bird it's like i really believe it she's like nelly is i hear that song i'm like a bird it's like i really believe it she's like nelly is kind of like a bird and like and that's the point i think the

audience needs to it all has to fit together in an honest effortless way um and then with folklore maybe nelly was feeling a little bit different because of you know she was having a baby at the time and it was just a different place in her life um so you know and i guess where i'm at in my life is that i feel like the artists should be creating art for their audience and not just simply expressing where they where they happen to be at um so each album she did was just sort of like was almost like she was trying to erase what she'd done before. And just, and I just think it made it that her audience couldn't really follow her on

this journey. And in effect, she just sort of lost them. Like, which I think she started off being very, very lucky to have all these people that wanted to hear her sound and her story. And then I think by the end of it, it was like nobody really knew what her sound or

her story really was. Amazing. Very interesting insight there. It almost sounds like she gets bored, maybe, you know, creative artists are known for getting bored and then, you know, blowing shit up. Exactly. I mean, it really is. I think it's in all of us.

I was that way. The Philosopher Kings were that way. I see it constantly. It's like people are like, no, I did that. I don't want to do that. I want to do something I've never done, and I want to be great at something else, and I want to be great at something else.

And I like to point them at artists like Sade, who is just like, here you have this artist you know which is a band and i think that's partly why people don't understand like if she was a solo artist she may have worked with timbaland and then she may have worked with you know who else and then you have all these different but she just stayed in that lane and created this legacy which in my opinion is one of the greatest legacies of all and you know at the top I mentioned Stu Stone said hi and I mentioned briefly Pandemic Fridays which return on Thursday as Toast

and one of the fun facts we toss around on that program is the fact that Sade is a band because most people think that's just a woman's name like she's just that's her yeah but that is really one of the because most people think that's just a woman's name. Like she's just, that's her. Yeah. But that is really one of the essential reasons why she has put out album after album,

all in the same lane and created this genre that she herself, I mean, her band has literally a monopoly on. You know, that's where I'm at. Like when I work with artists, I'm always like, okay, if we hit gold and we strike a vein and people love this sound that we're going to make,

let's stay with it for a while. Let's not just undo it on the next album. Here's my award-winning segue here, which is that, of course, you mentioned Folklore, which was the very different follow-up uh by of course by uh nelly furtado and there's a song on there called saturdays and on the jam saturdays is another artist i'm gonna play now because we need to talk about him

let's uh take a minute and listen to this and any man who knows a thing knows he knows not a damn this. I'm just gonna take a minute and let it ride I'm just gonna take a minute and let it breathe How did Mandela get the will to surpass the everyday? When injustice had him caged and trapped in every way How did Gandhi ever withstand the hunger strikes and all? Didn't do it to gain power or money if I recall as the gift I guess I'll pass it on, mother thinks it'll lift the stress of Babylon Mother knows, my mother, she suffered blows I don't know how we survived such violent episodes I was so worried, it hurt to see you bleed

But as soon as you came out the hospital you gave me sweets, yeah They tried to take you from me But you still only gave them some prayers and sympathy Dear mama, you helped me write this By showing me to give is priceless So damn good. Holy smokes. Okay. So good. But there's a specific question before we dive into K-Nan here. It comes from Bob Willett.

Bob Willett wants me to ask you about the shout-out that K-Nan gives you on Troubadour. He has a lot of questions. He really wants you to dive into your relationship with him. You let a little nugget out of the bag there

that you've got a project coming out with him, so we know you're still in touch. Tell us about K-Nan. Yeah, I discovered K-Nan as well in a Sony writing session back in Toronto. Man, I want to say like probably 2001 or 2002, something like that. He just came in and we were all on this track with a lot of Toronto rappers and I was just blown away by him.

He's an incredible artist, someone I've always been a fan of. In his career, he fell into the same trap that Nelly did in the sense that he wanted to sort of reinvent himself on each album. And I think he kind of like reinvented himself right out of relevancy in terms of the audience's interest in him. And that's actually some of the things that we've been discussing just recently and and again it's like this journey that artists this big this curve where they they eventually get back to this point where they realize you know ultimately it's the ego we're talking about it's it's the ego in us that makes us not want to do the same kind of

music twice it's our it's our egos that make us oh i want to show you that i can do this and i want to show you that i can do that um and and can do that. And we're kind of laughing about that just a couple of days ago and how he's just confident enough now in himself that he can allow somebody to direct him, which is what a producer does. The producer looks at the artist and tries to direct and shape that sound. And that's a hard process for a lot of artists that are trying to prove themselves what an artist you again your your ear does not uh

mislead you uh like if we you know the dusty foot philosopher and uh chubidor these are fantastic albums like uh you produce both yeah yeah thank you um you know uh like i said um it's just uh it's just uh it's it's a really funny thing because every artist is the same on some level like i did it gain on nelly like we all want to prove ourselves um and i think that a lot a lot of times ourselves. And I think that a lot of times there's a natural tendency for an artist to say they want to be the producer. And I don't think a lot of people realize that artists need producers. You know, Michael Jackson needed Quincy Jones. It's very, very rare that an artist can do it from inside. That would be the equivalent of an actor saying, I want to direct the movie now.

I mean, it's possible, but especially for really great actors, you need that third party to look and to help shape what the audience is experiencing um so that's kind of where i'm at and i'm i'm telling you this new canine album yeah i'm so excited about it like we just started it i think it's going to be massive i really do because it's it's it's like he's so mentally at the right place because he's just allowing himself to do what he does. He's not saying I need the music to be this.

I need the music to be that. I want this. We want that. It's just, you know, you tell me what the, what, what you think works and I'll trust you.

And that's, what's got me really excited about it. Well, I'm excited now too. And just to be clear, is it a Jarvis church producing it or track and field? It's Jarvis Church. It's just me. Okay. So those, the first two, the Dusty Foot Philosopher and the Troubadour,

those are track and field productions and this new one, exciting man. So when can we hear something? Like, do you have any idea when, when us Create Unwashed get to hear something? No, not until 2023, probably. We just started. It takes a year to make an album. That's how long it takes, generally speaking.

We should hear something in 2023. Amazing. Now, that whole theme has come up a couple of times where an artist almost self-destructs and reinvents because of some creative itch they have to scratch or whatever you know who i blame for that i blame neil young for that okay really why because neil young uh after you know harvest and he had a string of uh like successful albums and then he sort of mainly you know he started to like produce albums that were

completely different than anything that sounded like Neil Young. He literally would just reinvent himself for an album and maybe there'd be a Rockabilly album or there'd be this techno album or there'd be... Just fuck shit up. I think that is the inherent desire

of artists. I really feel like they all want to do that. I wanted to do that as well um and it just it takes a tremendous amount of discipline and somebody else as an influence that basically says man you're so lucky to have a sound that people like and people identify with you stay in that lane stay in that sound they want more of it um But the artist is like, no, I want to do something else because I'm bored of it. And I'm always trying to reiterate that point

that this is not about you. I'm not here. We didn't get all these people to help us make this album, spend all this money just so you could hear music that you want to hear. That's not what it's about. All right, Jarvis, I want to talk about... By the way, I like the fact that I'm calling you Jarvis instead of Gerald,

because I get like a warm feeling in my heart just saying the word Jarvis, because my seven year old upstairs is named Jarvis. It's cute. Yeah. I mean, my friends call me Jarvis. It's not like, you know,

a lot of people call me Jarvis. Okay. Well, I love it. And I just want to say, apologize, I guess, to Patrick Lee, who sent in questions about them the drugs. Okay. Well, I love it. Uh, and I just want to say, apologize, I guess to Patrick Lee, who sent in questions about you and Nelly Furtado,

but I covered all the Nelly ground and forgot to ask Patrick Lee, of course. So thank you, Patrick Lee, for the question about, uh, track and field and Nelly Furtado. Uh,

before we talk Bill Withers, I'm dying to talk Bill Withers with you. And then I have another jam. There's a fun fact we need to address right now. So let's, uh, let's, this is only 30 seconds and it's a bit low. There's a fun fact we need to address right now. This is only 30 seconds and it's a bit low in the mix, but let's listen to this. Da Kink in my hair. I would watch Da Kink in my hair and I enjoyed it. I love things that are really hyper-local.

It just felt like Toronto to me. But what was your role in the television series The Kink in My Hair? I was the music composer for two seasons on that television show. And it was my first time ever composing for film or television. And it was amazing. It ever composing for film or television, and it was amazing. It was such a fun experience. I was so new to that idea. I didn't know what bumpers were and intros and outros.

The whole concept was new to me, and I really immersed myself in it and had a great time making the music for those two seasons. We should, I think it's due for a reboot. I feel like Da Kink in My Hair would be something we should have on now. Like we should bring this back. Yeah, I agree. I agree. It was great. Make some calls there. Okay, so we're going to talk Bill Withers,

but first I want to let you know that if you were here, and you're not here because you're in California, but if you were here, Jarvis, I would give you a six-pack of fresh craft beer from Great Lakes Brewery just for dropping by. So I owe you beer from Great Lakes Brewery. Wow, I'm going to collect on that, dude.

I love craft beer. No joke. Hit me up when you're in town and I'll, I'll bike it over for you. Do you like Italian food? Okay. Well, Palma Pasta has a lasagna for you. Like legit,

like straight up delicious lasagna and fresh craft beer just for appearing on Toronto Mic'd. Oh, wow. I know. I'm definitely collecting on those two things for sure. And then I'll give you your Toronto Mic'd sticker courtesy of stickeru.com

if you ever need any stickers for the new K-Nan or any projects you've got going on. Stickeru.com is where you go. Okay, cool. And they're actually based out of Liberty Village. I mean, it's e-commerce. You can even get it there in California. But they're actually based at a liberty village i mean it's e-commerce you can even get it there in california uh but they're uh they're a good toronto company they're uh they're good

people too so sticker you.com and last but not least i have a flashlight for you believe it or not from ridley funeral home because uh the flashlight will keep you safe so you uh won't require ridley funeral homes fine services fine services any time too soon. Okay, I like that connection. A bit of a stretch, but they made it work. You work with me here, Jarvis. Come on. Bill Withers, man.

Let's start. Maybe tell us a little bit about your thoughts on the late, great Bill Withers. And then I do have a jam loaded up where you reimagined just the two of us, which is a great Bill Withers jam. But talk to me about Bill. Sure. So I've been doing this series.

It's called the Soul Station series where I spotlight different soul singer greats that have inspired me throughout my life. Volume one was Sam Cooke. Volume two was Curtis Mayfield. And here we are at volume three for Bill Withers. And I think that, like, for me, he's such an incredible songwriter. He's got so many amazing hits. And they were pop hits, too hits too like obviously he's a soul

singer but they they crossed over they became absolute mainstream um staples uh and uh i thought you know this would be a great uh a great person to spotlight and what i wanted to do this time round was to sort of flip it a little bit and do the production in more of a contemporary style. So where the first two albums were kind of retro feeling in terms of the production, this one I wanted to kind of like make it contemporary. And it also, you know, like these albums, they're half covers, half originals. So I call this one bill withers and beyond so it kind of gave me a license to go forward musically with something that's a little bit more contemporary you know my love of house music and stuff but i think it's a little bit more

futuristic leading well let's listen hey let's do this because i want to hear how this sounds so everybody listen up this is just the two of us. This is from your, is it available now? The Soul Station Volume 3, a tribute to Bill Withers. Can you grab this now? No, the whole album comes out in March, end of March, but just the single is out now. Okay.

So here, let's listen to this, and then I got more questions about Bill Withers. To make those rainbows in my mind When I think of you sometimes And I wanna spend some time with you Just the two of us We can make it if we try Just the two of us Just the two of us Just the two of us

Building castles in the sky Just the two of us You and I We look for love, no time for tears Wasted water's all that is And it don't make no flowers grow Good things may come to those who wait But not for those who wait too late

We gotta go for all we know Just the two of us. We can make it if we try. Just the two of us. Just the two of us. Just the two of us. Building them castles in the sky. Just the two of us. You and I. Just the two of us. Yeah, who's the woman voice on this jam?

That is Toronto's very own Amoye. She's like a reggae artist that's quite popular in Toronto's scene. And she blessed the vocals with that. Bonus points for getting another Torontonian on the, on the track. A couple of thoughts. One is I'm sure in your music career, you've crossed paths with Billy Newton Davis. Yes. Okay. I only bring them up cause he was on recently and he has a cover of

Grandma's Hands. I think there's a, like a bill withers revival going on maybe since he passed people are rediscovering but it's very good but one thing i want to say about my own personal uh bill withers memories is a big top 40 hit that i would hear on the aforementioned 680 cftr was club nouveau doing lean on me yeah yeah i know all about that that was my jam too it's funny too because everyone's asked you know what songs did you cover and uh obviously i wanted to cover lean on me and i did about four versions but i just could not get one that i was happy with and had to scrap it because i just could not in my mind mind, top Club Nouveau's version of Lean On Me, which was just one of my

absolute favorites. That's too funny. But that was everywhere. And I will, this is a confession I'm making to you now because we're in private here, but I don't, I'm pretty, I'm 99.9, in fact I'm 100% sure. When I was first, I bought

the 45 single, that's how much I like Club Nouveau's Leon Me. I don't think I knew it was a cover. It's sort of like that was like... Afterwards, I discovered, oh, that's a cover. That's everybody in high school, dude. I mean, nobody...

We never knew anything was a cover. It's just so funny how that works. Yeah, absolutely. I was the same way. Yeah. I think that was like 87 or something. So actually I'm still in, uh,

I'm still in grade school, but, uh, and shout out to the Sam, the record man at Jane and Bluer, because I actually walked over there and I think it was like three bucks. I want to say something like that, but I bought myself the 45 single of club nouveau is lean on me.

So I could just play it. Just crazy. Loved it. And love your spin on the Bill Withers, man. This is good stuff. So at some point in March, that single's available now, but at some point in March we can get our mitts on The Soul Station Volume 3, a tribute to Bill Withers and beyond.

Exactly. Alright, good stuff, man. Thanks so much for doing this like I could talk to you for hours but shout out to Stu Stone we'll dedicate this episode to him and

next time you're in the T-Dot here you know hopefully Omicron is a distant memory at that point and I'll hook you up with your beer and lasagna I'd be happy to do that man I'm I'll hook you up with your beer and lasagna. I'd be happy to do that. Man, I'm going to take you up on that for sure. That sounds great.

Thanks, man. This was a pleasure for me. I really appreciated this. Me too. I really appreciate it as well, man. I'll come back when the album is out and we can talk about some more songs for sure. I'd love it.

And that brings us to the end of our 985th show. By the way, you can be a part of episode 1000. Just record yourself talking about the podcast for 30 to 60 seconds

and email that audio file to mike at torontomike.com and you'll be there. I'm going to put you there alongside Jerry Haworth, Dan Schulman, and Jack Armstrong. You can follow me on Twitter. I'm at Toronto Mike.

Jarvis is at Jarvis Church. Our friends at Great Lakes Brewery are at Great Lakes Beer. Palma Pasta is at Palma Pasta. Sticker U is at Sticker U. And Ridley Funeral Home, they're at Ridley FH. See you all Thursday for toast. Toast. Cause my UI check has just come in Ah, where you been? Because everything is kind of rosy and green

Yeah, the wind is cold But the snow won't stay the day And your smile is fine And it's just like mine And it won't go away Cause everything is rosy and green. For 76 successive weeks, a weary nation was entertained by Pandemic Friday episodes of Toronto Mic'd, a welcome distraction during the global COVID-19 pandemic.

Then, on August 27th, in front of an adoring crowd of FOTMs on the patio of Great Lakes Brewery at TMLX8, it came to an abrupt end. It was over. Toronto Mike was exhausted and went camping. Cam Gordon retreated to the cozy bosom of MF and PPMM, and Stu Stone fled to Winnipeg to film a movie. A nation wept. But do you believe in miracles? Pandemic Fridays with Toronto Mike, Cam Gordon and Stu Stone

will return in January 2022. That's right. The band is getting back together with more fun facts and mind blows. Only this time, they'll record on the third Thursday of every month, live at live.torontomite.com, and they'll have a new name. Pandemic Fridays are now toast.

Welcome back, boys. I know it's true, yeah I know it's true How about you? I'm picking up trash and then putting down ropes And they're brokering stocks, the class struggle explodes And I'll play this guitar just the best that I can Maybe I'm done and maybe I am But who gives a damn Because everything is coming up

Rosy and gray Yeah, the wind is cold But the smell of snow Warms me today And your smile is fine. It's just like mine. It won't go away. Because everything is rosy and gray.

Well, I've kissed you in France and I've kissed you in Spain. And I've kissed you in places I better not name And I've seen the sun go down on Chaclacour But I like it much better going down on you Yeah, you know that's true Because everything is coming up rosy and green Yeah, the wind is cold but the smell of snow warms us today And your smile is fine and it's just like mine and it won't go away

Cause everything is rosy now Everything is rosy and Everything is rosy and everything is rosy and gray.