Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Jim Shedden: Toronto Mike'd #1184

Episode Date: January 9, 2023

In this 1184th episode of Toronto Mike'd, Mike chats with Jim Shedden about his life of zines, mix tapes, and Toronto counterculture. Toronto Mike'd is proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, Canna Cabana, Ridley Funeral Home and Electronic Products Recycling Association.

Welcome to episode 1184 of Toronto Mic'd Proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery A fiercely independent craft brewery who believe in supporting communities, good times and brewing amazing beer Order online for free local home delivery in the GTA Palma Pasta. Enjoy the taste of fresh, homemade Italian pasta and entrees from Palma Pasta in Mississauga

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at ProperlyHomes.ca Joining me today making his Toronto Mike debut is Jim Shedden. Welcome, Jim. Thank you. Happy to be here. Glad to finally make this happen.

Can I tell the story of how i met you the first time sure thank you imagine you said no we would boil all my plans i'd be like what do i do now okay so you were kind enough to invite me on a a tour here i have a book here i know it's mainly an audio presentation but uh the i am here book uh you had a uh an exhibit at the art gallery of ontario and i got a thorough tour and i loved it glad to hear it could be worse i hated it it was terrible jim no it was great i got this great book uh so maybe we start by the way i also bumped into fotm marcia Young during that tour, which was wild because she had just been over here like the day before.

And I haven't seen her since. Like I thought for a minute she was stalking me and it turns out, no, it was just like a random coincidence. But thank you for that tour. That was great. Great. Yeah. Thank you for coming all the way to the AGO.

It was good. All the way to the AGO. I would good. All the way to the AGO. I would go even further for you, Jim. Here, I'm just going to pump you up here because you're a softer-spoken guy than I thought. We got to channel that energy there. What the heck do you, before we get into it, I think you're fascinating and we have, you know,

I told you to cancel your evening plans because we're going to cover your life and times here. But what the heck do you have to do with the art gallery of ontario um these days i'm the publisher so i produce all of the catalogs and um collection highlights and artist books that we do and i'm also a curator uh of exhibitions um uh interdisciplinary exhibitions but i've had other roles in the past too. I've been there 12 years

and then 10 years in the 90s. The 90s was only 10 years long. I know. So the entirety of the 90s. I want to say 12 years in the 90s. Because that would be something else. Now I just stared at you for a moment. I just want to ask,

when I met you at the Art Gallery, which was not that long ago, I don't know, whenever Marcia Young was on, I don't know, six months or something, but like your beard wasn't that full, right? Like, is that a typical length of beard for you? Well, it needs a trim, but I've had at least one since I saw you.

So it grows a lot. It grows. Which is, you know, not not an accomplishment it's just a fact well i can't do it like i think you should be more proud of this than you are like if you said hey mike i'm coming back in a year i want you to look like at least half of what you've got going on there i can't do that i mean i'll get something will happen i look at cliff clavin and cheers remember when he was trying to grow that beard i can can't not do it, though. So it's just not in my hands. Gotcha.

It's out of your control. Okay. I want to start on a, like a, you know, I shouted out Ridley Funeral Home off the top because Ridley Funeral Home, proud sponsors of this program. But I actually, off the top, I'm hoping that you'll share some recollections and some words about somebody we lost in the art community just this past week,

somebody I know that you knew quite well. So do you mind speaking about Michael Snow and how you knew Michael and anything about Michael Snow before we move on? Because I mean, just for the casual Torontonian, they would say, oh, the geese at Eden Centre and the audience at the Skydome. Like these are some Michael Snow installations that all Torontonians are familiar with. But tell me how you knew Michael. Yeah, I've actually, I knew him for 40 years. So from the time I was 18 or 19, I'm 59 now.

So I guess doing the math since I was 19. And I was involved in experimental film, which is internationally how Michael's best known. It's a strange world because it's not certainly how he paid his bills, but it is how his reputation really was established internationally, in my opinion. And we became somewhat good friends, always working on something together over the years, whether it was a book or an event or, well, I made a documentary on him a number of years ago. And he made an artwork of me, which is me pretty naked. Pretty naked, two sides, full. It's quite a piece.

Like pretty naked, like the way Burt Reynolds was naked in Cosmo? A little more naked. Wow. So. Wow. But he did Photoshop things so that, you know, I wasn't fully revealed, I suppose keep it uh yeah okay i got you so this film you uh you you made a film on michael snow it was back in the mid 90s i guess

95 uh i think 94 i'm only going by your notes jim i know well i know but i'm losing it well my uh my sincere condolences uh again there's probably a lot of people like me who are like, yeah, the Canada geese in the Eden Center and the audience at the Dome. But of course, Michael Snow is so much more. Yeah, I mean, and in every sort of aspect of the arts. So he's actually in the experimental music world, he's huge.

You know, he was one of the, he had a group for decades called ccmc which was originally the canadian creative music collective and they decided that was a really institutional name and they kept changing it to like crush cookies make crumbs or whatever worked that that minute and um they started the music gallery um which uh has is a real kind of legendary uh venue and um uh just artist run center for experimental music um and um for that he's also known really you know you know internationally although we're talking about you know the i want i don't want to say fringe because these are important worlds if you're in them, but they're not, it's not mainstream music. That's not mainstream film by, by a long shot.

The mainstream things you've already identified. And that's because they're part of, you know, those were any, he does have other commissions like that, but those two were the most, the most well-known for sure. Again, sorry for, uh, your loss.

When was the last time you spoke with Michael? Um, well, actually I had the pleasure of doing really his final project with him, which was a book, uh, uh, about,

uh, collecting his mother's photographs. His mother lives to be almost a hundred years old. And, um, it's a pretty, uh, you know,

on the one hand, it's just like a huge photo album. On the other hand, it's really, you know, artfully composed and it's very, it's very thoughtful. And, uh, it was the last project he did and, um, he did it while he was not so well. And so we kind of went through that and, um,

worked on it for a few years during the pandemic, of course, uh, with him and his partner, Peggy, and his assistant, Mani Mutsun. I'm not even going to pronounce his last name right because I'm tongue-tied here. Mani, great guy. Look, you're in good company. I can't say most words properly, including pasta.

That's right. And then so the last time I saw him was when we launched the book at the AGO, and that was a really fantastic event just because, you know, one had the sense that, you know, there weren't going to be too many more opportunities. So that was that.

Now, as soon I have to actually, I'm going to bring you back with a song and we're going to kind of build up the Jim Shedden story. I think name recognition wise, I feel like a lot of people kind of build up the Jim Shedden story. I think name recognition wise, I feel like a lot of people are like, who's Jim Shedden? And when you find out who Jim Shedden is, you're going to be like,

how did I either not know who Jim Shedden was? And thank you, Mike, so much for telling me who this Jim Shedden character is. Cause you're a fascinating character. And if I want to talk about, actually, Wiseblood and I were having a quick chat,

a DM chat. And he's like, if you want to talk about any Toronto counterculture for the past 60 years, he says, you can't do any better than Jim Shedden. And that's like praise from Caesar. That's great. Well, he knows what he's talking about. He knows what he's talking about.

So here we go. Now, first, I just want to address something I saw today on Twitter. So earlier today there was a tweet. There's a gentleman from CP24. He left CP24 a long time ago, and he went solo. He's independent, like me. I respect this man. His name is Brandon Gones, and he's got a media company, as we all do.

I do, you do, we all do and brandon's got one and he announced today his media company announced today that they had bought now magazine okay this was like the surface of this this this press release they put out i can't remember they're called brandon group or something like that but they we now own now magazine so i'm like like what does that mean now you bought Now Magazine? Because everyone, and again, you know, I want to hear your thoughts on Now Magazine, of course. But basically, I know a lot of people who are owed a lot of money

because they worked at Now and never got compensated in severance and all this. There's a lot of people who owed a lot of money. So, you know, Glenn Sumi and more. Richard Trapunsky's been over. You know, i'm sure normally everybody is owed money but now brandon gomez owns now magazine which i feel like maybe that means they own the logo and they own the name and now they own the uh the domain name yeah

the logo the name and then social media that's probably what it means i don't know but like this is a big question off the top but this this whole like, yay, we bought Now Magazine with all these like real people who worked in our alt media scene for a very long time kind of left like, hey, we're owed like probably in total, like over, you know, six figures in total at least. Like, it's sort of interesting. Like, yeah, we bought Now Magazine, but you guys are SOL. Like, what do you think? I don't know, just as a guy who, you know, has been around the old media scene for a very long time. I mean, that's a big one, but it is interesting.

Like, it's cool that Brandon's got this name now, but like, that doesn't help somebody like a Glenn Sumi who worked how many months without any compensation at all? Yeah, you know, Glenn happens to be one of my oldest friends. Oh. Just a coincidence. And we were really, really good friends for many years and never stopped being good friends. But, you know, we got busy.

And so I've wondered about that as I've been reading his tweets. And I think he basically continued covering the theater scene out of a kind of loyalty to the scene. You know, I don't know how he's paying his bills, you know, came up from the same modest Scarborough suburban background that I did, you know, so I don't know what the deal is there.

Um, but you know, at the same time, uh, it, it was bound to happen. Right. I mean, I mean, uh, they've been through many waves and, at the same time, it was bound to happen, right? I mean, they've been through many waves and they've gone through, you know,

and they've been documented well on your show. I have my first copy. I have now number one, which I remember I was doing zines at the time and that came out and it was like, oh, what does this mean like and i had a fact there was a there were a lot of tabloids in toronto over the years you know there was shades some of you know about shades that was a great music tabloid um and that uh and then and then there was now and then of course there was um the nerve and you know and, and, and, and extra and so forth.

But I feel that at the end of the day, you know, we don't get our, we didn't get our information from now. So how are they, you know, how, how are they going to continue prospering? I mean, they, you know, just going online, well, we don't, you know, it doesn't really work that way, you know? So I don't know. I, I'm kind of. What are your feelings now to know that, you know so i don't know i i'm kind of what are your feelings now to know that you know it's almost like uh the king is dead long live the king like but what what does that mean right because like there's going to be something under the umbrella now magazine and it's going to

be at whatever their domain is now toronto.com i think it is i think they sold now.com for big bucks or something but now toronto.com but basically it won't be now magazine, obviously, because, uh, it's not going to be the same, you know, committed crew,

including Glenn and others. It's going to be something else in this Brandon Gones world. It's just going to be kind of called a now magazine. Like, I don't know, you know, what does that mean? Like,

like it's, I assume it'll be a fizzle. I mean, I, uh, I'm, uh, by by the way often when I make predictions the exact opposite happens so everybody buy if it goes public just buy like stocks and now magazines

it's possible but it feels to me like it'll be a fizzle it just doesn't really have a reason to exist something actually new may be born where you know there may be born where, you know, there may be a role for voices like Glenn's

and other people who were there over the years. But I don't think something called now will be it. There's something that just emerged called Grind. Have you seen Grind? I saw it yesterday and didn't pick it up because i was in a hurry but i thought grind it sounded like you know grid with an n um that's exactly what it is or gritter a grinder maybe gritter maybe but i don't know maybe maybe i i didn't know what it was tell you the truth i did see it so All right, so stay tuned, everybody.

We'll cover this. I had in my calendar, it was going to be Ed Keenan from The Star, speaking of The Grid and iWeekly, and Mark Weisblatt, speaking of The Grid and iWeekly. They were going to come over. This was, what day is today? It was last week. They were going to come over.

We were going to just talk about the future of alt media for Gen X, which, by the way, you're listening to the future if you're listening to the future if you're listening to it right now but we're going to discuss this topic and that's been rescheduled for a later date but we'll have plenty to uh to talk about with this uh Brandon Gones news so very interesting all right so Jim I'm about to play the jam that's going to kick us off and we're going to walk through this the life and times of Jim Shedden. But I mentioned you invited me for a tour of your exhibit at the Art Gallery of Ontario.

A few things I just want to tell FOTMs. Again, where's my book? I'm just finding my book here. I Am Here, which is the name of this exhibit, right? I Am Here? It was very good. But a few things that are like right in the wheelhouse. You had on display, you had Gary Topp's Rolo Dex.

Is that what that was? It's actually his phone book. Okay, so it didn't roll. It was just like a Dex. It was really pre all that. But like, which is like amazing. We love the Garys here. But also you had like a little TV

that was like looping Speaker's Corner. And it was Yoko Ono by the Barenaked Ladies. That's right. Yeah, well, the exhibition was about all the different ways that we document our everyday lives, and that was pretty, you know, it took its inspiration from home movies and a particular collection of home movies and Rick Pralinger, who lent us the collection and inspired the show.

And from there, we looked at visual art, and we also looked at photo albums, and some of the things that would be kind of more obvious. But then it started to get more down to things like Gary's address book, which is, first of all, a work of art. If you see it, it looks like a Klaus Oldenburg sculpture. At the same time, what an incredible document of the time. You know, just pulling out one page from that,

we could see, you know, police management, as in the band, the police. I was going to say, is it under Sumner or is it under Sting? That was just under P. At the same time, there was the phone number for Prince, who Gary has never ended up programming. They did want Prince to appear at the first police picnic, but police management, whoever that was, said,

I don't think so. Who is this guy? And that's a lot of Ps to pop. That's just P. That's one part of P.'s a lot of peas to pop. That's just pea. That's one part of pea. No, no. It's like, yeah. But Prince at the police picnic.

What would radio people do? By the way, you made a joke before I pressed record. Is it you actually getting palm up pasta or is it an empty box? So since I'm popping peas, I'm just going to get this out of the way. There is a large frozen lasagna for you in my freezer. You're not leaving without it, Jim.

So enjoy. Thank you, palm up pasta.agna for you in my freezer. You're not leaving without it, Jim. So enjoy. Thank you, Palma Pasta. Easy for you to say. Thank you, Palma Pasta, for sending it over. Now we're going to jog. By the way, also, Stephen Page is a buddy of yours from Scarborough, right? Not from Scarborough. I mean, we are from Scarborough.

We did both go to the same high school, but he's younger than me. We are from Scarborough. We did both go to the same high school, but he's younger than me. But we got to know him best when my daughter was going out with his son. Okay. Look at how close you came to being family there. So there you go.

Wow. Okay, there's a fun fact for everybody. Bound by wild desire I fell into a ring of fire Sing along if you like. Hmm. The Tamir, the studio audience. Burns, burns, burns. The ring of fire.

The ring of fire. Jim, why am I playing Ring of Fire by Johnny Cash? Well, you know, who knows for certain, but I feel like my first memory in life was hearing this song. It was definitely hearing this album, which is a Greatest greatest hits album from 66 that my parents owned and i loved it so much that when in kindergarten we had to teach each other songs you know like itsy bitsy spider or whatever i taught my kindergarten class ring of fire so that's and it and johnny cash you know has has been in my heart ever since.

And so has music. This was the gateway drug to all other music. So this is growing up in Scarborough in the mid to late 60s. That's right. Johnny Cash, First Memory. That's pretty cool. I think mine might be like a Sesame Street song or something. I'd trade spots with you.

This is a pretty cool first memory. No, Sesame Street's three years later. You know could have been that i would be i'd be happy if it was that i'm a huge huge fan absolutely okay so here let's walk us through like your inspirations while we kind of build up to the zines and everything that you've been involved in here like i know uh it's kind of wonderful like even just getting like i got a piece of snail mail from you once which like nobody sends and it was amazing and dense and informative and you're just like a natural board archivist like cut from the same cloth like i absolutely love it but why don't you walk me

through you know the late 60s into the 70s and like what what you were into as you're a young man and a very young man in scarborough well um know, I loved or listened to all of my parents' records and there weren't very many of them. But, you know, it was like Burt Canford, who was fantastic, and very, you know, very few others. And then my sisters and I got into the whole 16 Tiger Beat scene, the Osmonds and the Partridge family and all that. And I still, to this day, think I like the osmonds and the partridge family and all that and i still to this day think i like the osmonds a lot and i like the partridge family i don't really apologize for that

um oh the monkeys so these are don kirshner productions right and the archies um um so all of that and then um at some point um when i could buy my own records, I'm pretty sure my first record was like a K-Tel record. And the whole K-Tel, 22 original hits, 22 original stars scene, you know, believe in music, fantastic, sound explosion, Canada gold, Canadian mint. They were all, you know, informative. mint they were all you know informative and these were um for those who don't know generally truncated um versions of songs that were on the hit parade usually like two minute you know like cut out the guitar you know solo on leila or something like that you know amazing okay so at this point we're talking like i don't know 72 to 74 let's say let's just randomly pick those years okay jim you're answering the phone with i listen to chum the chum because and my dad hated when we did this because chum might be

calling uh with a prize i mean i can't you know maybe it was like 20 bucks or something i don't know what you know something tickets to who knows sure um and so we raced usually my older sister beat us to the punch and she would answer the phone and we never won um but i did wear and i brought in fact my star sign wow the chum the uh chum uh is that that no it's actually in in this okay okay i'm not gonna get it i'll show it to you later but just pretend i'm here maybe you can flat when we do our photo by the tree afterwards. You could hold it up. Yeah, I could.

Just for a whole moment or something. So I'm a Virgo. And that was a few years later, but I did win. If they saw you on the street with that one, you know. So I won like a Donna Summer record. Amazing. Which I didn't like at the time, but it's really good. I was just wrong.

Right. You were wrong. Well, she's in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, I believe, Donna Summer. No longer with us, sadly. Shout out to Ridley Funeral Home. But the fact that that happened, because I remember I'm a little bit younger than you,

and for me it was, if you got spotted wearing your Toronto tee from City TV, like, I think Ziggy would be like, yeah, and I remember that was like the, oh my God, like that was so exciting that, hey, I could wear this T-shirt and if they spot me, I'll win something.

And this was just a little bit earlier. This was sort of the chum version. Well, the Moses empire learned a lot from the parent company and they were able to just really go overdrive with it, right? Like, you know, that was just their whole, they were constantly on the street and doing that. So that was exciting. I mean, living in the suburbs, that was just their whole, they were constantly on the street and doing that. So that was exciting. I mean, living in the suburbs, it wasn't as exciting

because they weren't likely to come by to Morningside and Lawrence to the, you know, Orton Park Plaza or whatever to, you know, but occasionally I suppose. So I won the Donna Summer one, like at a Young & Bloor, Young & Bloor station. And that did lead that so that period, coinciding with that, I guess, was the beginning of, for me, Chum Charts.

Yes. And I brought them all with me. Oh my God. Or what I could find. And I collected them, it seems, from 74 to about 81. But by then it was Chum FM charts. Yeah.

You had to cut them out of the newspaper. Right. Right. Yeah. See, I don't, I'm of an age where I remember the Chum FM, like the Chum FM 30. I think Roger Ashby would host it or something. And that would be a television show, but you'd

get the printout in the paper. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. And then I had, like I collected the year end ones. I mean, it's not complete, but there's a lot there. A lot of FOM.

FOTM. Come on, Tim. You're on FOTM. You should know this stuff. I know, but I'm nervous. FOTM. Did you listen to episode 1050? I did.

Okay, good. Yeah. That was for you, Jim. I knew who a lot of those people were, and it was great. But sorry, I tried. Okay, good. Yeah. That was for you, Jim. Who a lot of those people were and it was great. But sorry, I'm trying to make too much noise here. No, no. Make it. Oh, I like that kind of noise.

Oh, I see. You know what I mean? Like, I don't want to hear you like burping or whatever, but like that background ambient noise of flipping through old newspapers. That's cool. Foley. I'll add it in post.

Then I'll add more paper shuffling. I mean, there's a few here. This is actually the last one. And they explained that it's much more efficient to get them. There's Bob Kennedy. Okay. Love it. It's a miracle.

Okay. This is Barry Manilow's number one here. It's a miracle. Is it? Right. And then we've been, my wife and daughter and I have been making a collective playlist where we each have to choose two songs from the Billboard Hot 100 from 1963 to the present. So it adds up to 360 songs.

But I pulled this out in order to compare it because the charts don't exactly reflect that. They're just a little bit wider here than um than than all of that and so what you're saying when you compare the 1050 chart to the billboard hot 100 is that what you're comparing yeah it's not quite um they're not the same even though the 1050 chart you know you would be listening to some like hard rock band you know like what we call it hard rock band like bad company you know and that would be next to the carpenters and that would be next to, you know,

um, Paul McCartney. And that would be, you know, it was just, it was, it was pretty interesting, pretty interesting mix.

Did you ever meet Mark Daly? Random question for you, Jim. No, my, my sister knows, knew him really well. Um,

she was friends with his, uh, his, um, wife. His wife just gave ed conroy from retro ontario a whole bunch of like old uh tapes that mark had kind of collected in his uh in his home office or whatever and uh so we're actually this is the plan for 2023 is we're gonna well mainly it's gonna be ed conroy i don't want to take too much credit here. Why not take all the credit? Okay. But going through the art, the Mark Daly archive.

That's fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, that sounds like an art gallery installation, art gallery of Ontario installation. Well,

maybe. We'll broker the deal. All right. Hey, talk to me about Elton John, if you don't mind, because I know you're a big Elton freak. And I finally saw him live at his last concert in Toronto

and, you know, on the last tour. So, yeah, so that was, this feels like transitional from the kind of, you know, there were a bunch of things. Like I remember buying like singles somehow of Fame by Bowie and Love is the Drug is the drug by roxy seasons in the sun by terry jacks well i had that too but that's a jacques brel song so in fact i can i have a rationale for the through even though i actually think it's quite terrible but um um but but but

but it's you know so yeah so then suddenly i don know. I don't know when I first heard Elton John, but it was, you know, it was there on the radio and I just, just one day, it was really rock magazines. That's the other thing too, that after 16 and Tiger Beat and those, then I just kind of moved into Hit Parade or Cream Circus. The Gateway, right. Yeah, and those mags, years before I heard a lot of the bands that were in those magazines

like Patti Smith and Lou Reed and Iggy and all that and MC5, I knew about them and I was excited about them, but they kind of led me to Elton John. And so I kind of knew, oh, he's cool. And then, and I had some books and all that. So this was all around the time just after Goodbye Yellow Brick Road had come out.

And then like Caribou and I mean, there's the heyday really of. His imperial period. Elton could do no wrong. I guess he and then I guess Stevie Wonder kind of ruled for a period there in the 70s. Yeah. And let's say Stevie a lot longer

because what happens to Elton is you go Caribou and then Captain Fantastic and then suddenly The Rock of the West East. Like, what the fuck, you know? I mean, and I don't even mind it that much now, but it was just impossible. Like, at a point where I was not discriminating, like I loved,

I could love bad albums by my favorite people, but I just stopped listening to them. And then, and didn't really think about them really till Lion King. You took a break there. No sad songs for you. Sad songs say so much, you know,

which I remember distinctly they reworked it. It was a Sassoon commercial. Do you remember this? Sassoon? Is that how you say it? Sassoon? Sassoon. Say so much.

That's the brand, right? I think it's Sassoon. I think it's Sassoon. Okay. Yeah. They worked it into a commercial. And was it a Deanie Petty show that used I'm Still Standing as the theme song? Do you remember this?

I believe so. Which I don't believe was actually like licensed properly i think back in the day moses just they just stuck these jams on their uh like obsession i don't think i'm in emotion i don't think fashion television licensed it or whatever it was toronto we were below the radar there was no internet but i i that song um i'm still standing it's one of the you know at the the show I saw, it was almost all songs from like 73 to 76. And then I'm Still Standing was one of the few that he did. And that is true of the Rocketman film too, right? There were not too many recent songs, but that was one

because that's in a way his recovery triumph and all that he's still here you know the comeback here and uh you know i know he's still i think he's still got like international dates right like he hasn't hung up could you hang up a piano i'm not sure what you hang up there your sunglasses i don't know so but but yeah he's done in north america concerts are done apparently so okay but you got to see him which is great hey so while we're in the mid 70s here uh talk to me a little bit about like bto mania yeah so overlapping with that i guess um bto became my favorite band and just because i like them i guess i mean i think i'm just from hearing them on the radio um but i was very jealous of my older sister because she went to see the beach boys at the CNE exhibition stadium and BTO opened. And I didn't,

you know, I, I, I liked the beach boys in their comeback record, you know, um, endless summer. It was like a compilation,

but I really want to see BTO. So the next year I just went, I was 11 years old and I went to my local Sam, the record man at Cedar Heights Plaza in Scarborough and bought my ticket. I'm sure it was like five bucks. And, um, and I announced to my parents that I

was going to the C&E and they were like trying to humor me. Like, and they eventually found friends of theirs who were going to the acts at that time who drove me and showed me how to get into the stadium and pick me up later. That's nice that they were supportive like that. Didn't put a kibosh on the whole plans or whatever.

You got to see BTO at the C&E Grandstand. And that was the not fragile tour I guess. So that was like they just put out their third album. And then I got into Guess Who then. And I still like BTO but you know I don't play them much. There's an episode of I'm just going to use your story to cross Guess Who then? And I still like BTO, but, you know, I don't play them much, you know.

There's an episode of, see, I'm just going to use your story to cross-promote Toronto Mic'd episodes, if that's okay with you, but there is a recent like deep dive into the history of the Guess Who I did with Robert Lawson, who wrote a book on, his book is actually called Wheatfield Empire, The Listener's Guide

to the Guess Who. So two-part question. Jim, did you listen to that episode? And why was it the greatest Guess Who episode you ever heard? I did listen to that episode. Yes. I mean, it was the greatest Guess Who episode partly because Randy and Burton each have their own selective memories of what went wrong.

So if you've read any biographies, when you, when you hear their take, you go, well, that's not what I read that you said before, you know? But they, you know you know, it was a complicated battle of egos in some ways, just like, you know, happens with, with any band, I guess guess to a certain extent so um and burton was somewhat out of it and randy was on another path and um you know then they ended up with all this kind of weirdness where when they i've seen them play together and they have to be the burton cummings band just like he has to be the burton turner i mean uh sorry bachman Cummings Band, and he has to be the Bachman Turner

Band or whatever, because he doesn't own the rights to the name of either of those, and neither does Burton Cummings. Burton Cummings and Randy Bachman do not own the name, guess who? I think, like, Gary Peterson, the drummer does, or something like that. Exactly. It does, because, you know, during the

lockdown, you know, we just, we're coming out of a pandemic here, Jim. I don't know if you caught wind of that, but there would be these, because, you know, during the lockdown, you know, we just, we're coming out of a pandemic here, Jim. I don't know if you caught wind of that, but there would be these like controversial like gatherings in the US of A. And then you'd hear like, but guess who is playing these shows? But it's like, it's Sass Jordan's husband, I think is the lead singer. Shout out to FOTM, Sass Jordan. Okay, but that's all covered in that Guess Who episode. But now I want to ask you, so you're born a bit late. If I'm just doing math now on your date of birth, I've got all the

information, all my heavy research, and I see that you're just kind of a titch late for Beatlemania while the Beatles are an active band. But you can come to that later. You can, like I did, like my kid has done, you know, discover the Beatles later. Yeah, and I totally did. i mean i i think i remember hearing that the beatles broke up it was around the time my parents moved to another house but when i was really young um i also confused them with the monkeys so that um and i we went to a wedding once and the kids were there somehow and there was a band playing it was like four guys in suits and i was pretty convinced that i'd seen the beatles you know so i was really into the beatles you know but i but we

had um in the in our house we own she loves you and um and then whatever snippets of beatles i could get in the 60s so we had that and it used to be this quite grotesque show on um chch which we could get in toronto called family finder and it was like an adoption show where they'd have kids what we'd call special needs kids who like needed homes and they would just like make them smile for the camera and the the theme music was all you need is love so like i know by the time i left the 60s i knew she loves you i knew the flintstones like it had you know yeah yeah yeah like uh i forgot the way out the way it was the way outs and there was also there's another one okay there was like you know i can kind of see him now yeah yeah there were two

like beetle-esque things going on there and then so i kind of knew about that. I knew the monkeys. And somehow along the lines, I know I had heard like good day sunshine. The gruesomes? The gruesomes, yeah. Okay. Yes, I do remember the gruesomes. I mean, like anyone, I watched a lot of Flintstones in my day.

That's for sure. But I don't know. My kids didn't watch any Flintstones. I think maybe I'm the last gen that was like Flintstones every day or whatever. But I digress. Hey, one more quick thing. You talked about confusing as a young, young person,

confusing the monkeys with the Beatles. As a very young boy, I confused Heathcliff with Garfield. And my friends made fun of me. Like, how could you confuse Heathcliff with Garfield? But I mean, they were both orange cats. How could i not confuse them anyway i digress they were big garfield fans i get it i get it but i but heathcliff didn't eat lasagna no and you got the lasagna with you so i'm a big uh i'm a big fan of garfield absolutely

uh just shout out to jim davis okay so tell me so beatles you're into, I guess, the solo records, obviously, in the 70s. Yeah. And, well, the first, at some point on 1050 Chum, I heard a photograph by Ringo Starr. And my sister got the single. And I didn't know enough about the Beatles. But I just assumed that Ringo must have been the leader because he had that song. And it is a great song. I wouldn't have known then that it was written by George Harrison. Ringo must have been the leader because he had that song and, and it is a great song. Right. I wouldn't have known then that it was written by George.

Interesting. George Harrison. Right. But, um, then, um, yeah, I got a band on the run when it came out for Christmas.

And so then that, like, I just kind of switched allegiances like that. Then I knew then Paul was the leader. Um, and I just love that record and I still do. Uh, and I got, you know, I'm Venus and Mars just love that record and i still do uh and i got you know i'm venus and mars and all that

and this all happens before i get the beatles blue and beatles red compilations which are great compilations but you know they're still like why isn't that song on it why isn't that song on it so i had those and that was like that was the best possible situation economically. And then I slowly built, you know, and, and I never, you know, I never stopped like the Beatles when I, when I was, I'm a recovering, uh, alcoholic. Um, and, uh, when I was in rehab, you know, I'd lost interest in, in, in living for a few years, really, in anything but drinking and getting through the day. And as I started coming to, I suddenly was a huge Beatles fan again. And I suddenly needed to hear all their music

and trace information and connections on this new thing that was online called Facebook and all that. And it was, uh, so the Beatles were like this, these life, life preservers for me almost like that.

It was kind of like the, the, the, they reminded me that of how much meaning music has had and continues to have in my life. Love it. What did you think of the Peter Jackson documentary? Um, I'm with the yeas i thought

it was fantastic i thought it was really interesting and you have to take from it that he you know we had one hour of that 600 hours of footage all these years right now we have eight right there's still 592 hours and if you've worked on a documentary film you know it's always just you know shades of of uh you know um i don't know it's not like lying but um you know it's like it's a perspective you know decisions are made about something in the editing room yeah i try to make something that's you know comprehensible and entertaining. And yet life, with the I Am Here exhibit, we're all about document.

We're all about, you know, there's just much to be learned if you just accept the rawness of the documents in front of you. So anyways, I loved it though. I thought just absolutely fascinating watching the you know and maybe um pleasing to watch the the dynamic between john and paul like it wasn't quite how it had been painted right um i thought yoko was i love yoko actually and i never thought she broke up the beatles but i always thought if she, good for her because they were clearly kind of done. Love it. Now, listen, I want to get to the high school, man,

because I got to get talking about these zines and the comic book zines and the zine scene, et cetera. But on your way out of the Beatlemania and the Beatles solo records, that's punk and new wave, I guess, hit in the mid to late 70s yeah and in a way nothing was bigger to me than that um punk and new wave and the kind of general spirit of diy that um you know we're kind of you know in 77 clearly the hippie years are over and so like

you don't even have to try to be a hippie um but we haven't moved into any kind of more positive thing it's like really a period of nihilism um where there's an opportunity to um take the reins you know and that's kind of world worldwide uh or at least you know countries that mattered to us then um and um it was really really invigorating like like to be, you know, to like, to be in high school then, but to also be at the age where we could go away, like get out of the house and go see bands and not, our parents didn't know what the hell we were doing any of the time. Um, and then basically even though like we could get into most places underage and on top of that, you know, the edge, one of the great Gary's venues,

it was a restaurant. It wasn't a bar. So you were allowed to go in there as a child. Okay. So that's why people have so many stories about that venue in particular because there are all these teenagers who were going there and watching The Stranglers and all of that, you know,

because I got to, you know, there's gonna be tangents here, but you said the edge. So I got to quickly tell you a story because it ties in the Gary's and it ties in a kind of the Beatles actually, because the night that John Lennon was shot and killed, that was the very first night that Rob Proust played keyboards with the

spoons. And that was a, uh, Gary's presentation at the Edge. And in attendance, because he's kind of cut from the same cloth as you too, by the way. Actually, they are.

But the guy I'm referring to right now is Paul Myers, Mike Myers' brother from the Gravel Berries, who was at the Edge that night because he writes in detail about learning about the death of John Lennon and what that meant to him. And I know he's a Scarborough guy too,

similar vintage. He's a Scarborough guy. He's also in recovery. It's public about that. I'm not outing him. Yeah, and I think I vaguely met him like at the Bev, maybe at a Gravel Berries show or something,

but I didn't know him that well. But I've been in touch with him about a number of matters since then. And Rob is going to play this concert series, this music series that my daughter and I do. Okay, Rob Pruth. Who played TMLX11

this past summer at Great Lakes Brewery. Right. So we've been writing back and forth. Okay, he's a great guy. Just to find a date. It hasn't quite worked yet, but he's really into that. No, I love hearing that because I think the world of Robin,

he's actually, we're doing this thing on Toast, which was a monthly episode, thematic, jam-kicking thing I was doing with Cam Gordon and Stu Stone, and they're on hiatus right now,

like a temporary hiatus, and I've replaced them like Koi and Vance style with my buddy Bob Ouellette, also known as Bingo Bob, producer of the Humble and Fred show at one time, right now like a temporary hiatus and i've replaced them like coy and van style with uh my buddy bob willett also known as bingo bob producer of the humble and fred show at one time but uh rob pruse is uh on that too and we have another episode coming up soon so rob will be back on toronto mic later this month okay punk new wave diy this sounds like uh if i were to have like a you know i'm thinking now of like the hilarious house of frightenstein if billy van were going to be stirring this in a cauldron there

this is how it would result in like jim shed and zines well this is a big setup for you jim zines i know zines are important to you but tell me about uh well you know i mean i started making zines when I was 14. It was comic book zines then. I was really into comics, and that hasn't entirely gone away. It's just sort of taken a different shape. I started working at comic fairs and working at comic stores and all that,

and I did four issues of this zine called Gratis, and I still have them and um they're gonna have you know they're gonna have a life out there in the world kind of embarrassed but you know i was 14 so what the hell um and then um like i don't know a few other things happened but by grade i don't know 11 or 12, I started doing, you know, ostensibly music zines. But if you look at all the zines from that period,

ours were about music, but ours were the clearly, I say ours because I was normally in partnership. So with Lisa Godfrey, who's now a producer at CBC at Ideas and Sarah Haynonan, who's a writer and an architect and all that um we were um we

were doing these scenes and um ours were on the like like really the artsy side and we kind of got made fun of because we would have poetry in ours and kind of you know just we were a little more feminine um myself included it was just like like because it was a kind of macho scene um in a way but we were you know i'm still friends with a number of those people from that period i'm probably friendlier now then i was we were like we we had to be antagonistic it was the punk era right you know fuck you you know so um but it was it was so liberating when i look back it's like you know aside from making mixtapes which is a whole other topic perhaps yeah we'll get to soon making zines was like one of the most liberating creative things i ever did and i i sometimes when i'm

working on very professional slick books that have to you know you know do do this and do that i sometimes like wish that i could just like get in there with a mimeograph and a stapler and just get it out there, you know, which of course is the spirit of so much of online activity. But in those days it was, you know, very few people seemed to have that impulse, you know, enough that there was a scene, but it wasn't the normal impulse. Okay, so, yeah, you kind of mentioned it,

but why don't you take this, so you're talking about the zines, which are so important to you at this time, and the mixtapes, like maybe share a little more about these mixtapes that you would make, because, you know, you start making these mixtapes in the 70s, but you only, what, you probably made one last night. Well, I mean, I am basically making a mixtape with my wife and daughter right now.

I mean, it's not, we don't call it that, but it has the same, it's the same, but it's different because it's collaborative, but it's not, for me, it was like mixtapes meant coming home from school, you know, pulling out some records in the living room because that's where I had the stereo equipment that I needed. And I had a double tape deck there, a Fisher. And it wasn't the highest high end, but it was pretty good stuff.

And I would make a tape, right? I would make at least one tape a night. And it would take at least two hours, usually about three to make a 90 minute tape because you're listening to things in real time. You're changing your mind. You're kind of like hunting around for that 45 of Susie and the Banshees that you, you know,

whatever. There's all that kind of stuff. And then you're kind of like, you, you know, writing in all the titles and all that, maybe, maybe doing some kind of artwork on it. And then, you know, like, you, you know, um, writing in all the titles and all that, maybe, maybe doing some kind of artwork on it.

And then, you know, the next day, you know, giving it to someone, maybe a girl and hoping that she understands yet you mean that you, you love her and can't live without her. But of course she never did get that and just laughed at you or whatever, but you know, that's all part of the cycle. And I did that and, and I made, I don't know, just some people still have them. They still say to me, I still have that tape you made and, you know, and, did that and and i made i don't know just some people still have them they still say to me i still have that tape you made and you know and um and i don't have them anymore and and i and i i don't know if i regret that or i'm like happy about that you didn't hold on to any of them no i i just one day i just was like i got to get rid of all this stuff and because i would often make copies of the tapes. Sure.

Right? So I'd have it like, speaking of the archivist, I got a copy of what I'd given to someone, not just the titles, but the actual tape. And I got rid of all that. And then people gave me tapes, and I got rid of those. I don't know. It goes against the grain of where I'm at now.

You're in a room right now with actual tapes, okay, because I'm digitizing old Humble and Fred tapes as part of my duties over there. That's why I pulled this guy out. He was hiding around the corner. I hadn't used my cassette deck in many years, actually, but I'm using it now because I run this guy. That was big. So I've exchanged around this time, maybe around 1981,

the record company started issuing sleeves, inner sleeves, with this, you know, skull and crossbones cassette. It would say, home taping is killing music. Right. And you want to, it would have been great to be able to add, then, you don't know what's coming. Right. So I've joked about that with my friend Steve.

You ain't seen nothing yet. Shout out to BTL friend Steve Cain, former president of Warner Music Canada, who is also a very prolific mixtape maker. And he collaborated on zines with me, actually. We did some punk zines, Black Triangle. Okay, zines, mixtapes, love it so much. Like just right up my alley. I used to make aines, mixtapes, love it so much. Like just right up my alley.

I used to make a bunch of mixtapes too. But I want to talk like sort of cinema and then music like radio stations. So maybe at this time, like I guess we got you in high school here. What were the movies that kind of made you fall in love with cinema? Well, you know, it started like a lot of people with, you know, Star Wars, which I saw at a drive-in theater in Cape Cod with my family.

And it was like, okay, this is the greatest film ever made. And then about a year later, a little bit more, I saw Apocalypse Now. And I was like, this is the greatest film ever made. And I hate Star Wars. And I kind of never got over that i mean not that i hate star wars but it's sort of like not ultimately i'm just not that interested in that line from film you know when i got i got addicted to kind of ever increasing amounts of innovation and and novelty artistically so the whole the whole period in the 70s was amazing like

for american uh feature films um but also for seeing films in toronto like we had um all these rep cinemas like the bluer and the the brighton and and um the fox and all that that were kind of ended up being connected right and you could see films for a dollar if you had a five dollar membership so i just like between el we yost and tv and then all these rep cinemas and then this is all before vhs which comes out in 1984 i think maybe 83 unless you were rich i feel like rich people could get it earlier. Well, they could have Betamax, but it was all held up in court for a while, right? Okay.

So, I mean, so it was just like an incredible thing that was going on in parallel, but it also led to ultimately, I think really more of the music scene led me to experimental film, which is sort of to date to this day, speaking of Michael Snow, today one of the things that kind of drove me forward.

And that's really film that is by and large not narrative at all, that is really about the experience of watching, just something that's more about the ears, the eye, the mind than about spectacle. And that really became a huge part of my life. And as for radio, you know, yeah, like Chum AM, Chum FM, you know. And those days as a station, when I look back, they were clearly pretty boring in a way, but they were all jockeying to put on shows

so that this famous Elvis Costello concert that happened at the Elmo, I guess in 77 or 78, it was presented by Chum FM and the Garys, right? Early, not early Garys, right? Early, not early Garys, but well, I guess it was. But there was no CFNY yet.

And there was not, not even a Q107. Those both come on the scene in, in, in 78. I have heard people say 77 about Q107. Q is 77 because I just did 1071 deep dive. And it is Dave Charles,

who's my source on this, who was there. Dave charles by the way returning to toronto mic soon but he was there and john donabee and some others have yeah 77 so i i liked all three of those stations tell you the truth at that time but but the pull of cf and y was too great like i like ultimately um and this is kind of like the pre-synth pop uh period when it still is kind of free a little bit free form and it's eclectic and so you might still actually hear some prog rock and then you know they had to do all their what do they call it um the you know the foreground yes foreground programming so they had like a classical show and you know, the foreground. Yes. Foreground programming. So they had like a classical show and I, you know, it was great. I loved it all. I loved,

I loved all that. And, um, but then on the other hand, Q and a seven and Chubb and Fem both had good news, you know, station news shows. Barometer.

Barometer was really good, you know? Um, so I, so I would kind of go back and forth, but, but I kind of stuck on CF and Y. Um,

well, can you name check just before we skip my, uh, CF and Y, there's a great episode one Oh two one, which I know you listen to, but, uh, stuck on CFNY. Well, can you name check, just before we skip my CFNY, there's a great episode, 1021, which I know you listen to, but 1021. But can you name check some of the CFNY personalities of the era that you would enjoy listening to? Yeah, my favorite was Brad McNally. He just passed away, right? He passed away.

And I got in touch with him before he did and basically said love to him. Well, if he did it after he did, that would be something. It would be. I should try. But it was, and I said, you know, you won't remember me, but me and my friends were huge fans and would go to, like literally go to Brampton and sit in the station. But I also sent him a note once saying,

you know, you should really do an eclectic spirit because that was his show, which was my model for great radio programming. I love the eclectic spirit, which was like a kind of, as you can imagine. And I sent him a note saying, you should do an episode on heroin because that was really, you know, dark.

And he did, but it wasn't, he never got back in touch with me. It was awkward. I was a kid. He wasn't going to call me and there was no email or anything. So he just went ahead and did it. And I put it on one day. I thought, well, that's got to be me because some of those suggestions were stupid. And he went with them.

But I love Brad McNally. Obviously, the Mars bar, you know, Dave Marsden. suggestions were stupid and he went he went with them but i love brad mcnally obviously uh the mars bar you know um dave marsden sure um who um like gary top you know i didn't know at the time but i became um pretty good friends with them both and many years later um then and you probably heard him on your uh chum fm before I didn't. Like I probably could have, but I was probably still like transitioning. Sure, no, I hear you. No, I did the same thing when I was on 680 CFTR

and you got to go through the top 40 before you get to the more eclectic stuff. I mean, one person we really liked then was Tim Keel. And I don't know why he got fired but he got fired and i didn't really i think he went to cgrt for a while um but he would do um we would do benefit concerts for zines and um he he was like our host and he was always like really gracious about that um then uh iver hamilton um who i guess is still associated with dave marsden because he has that that uh the spirit ny.com and iver's still with uh universal music yeah so um so iver like these

these were these people i'm mentioning were like super, you know, heavily into music. And then later on, you know, then I kind of just went CBC for a number of years. And then I got back into CFNY in, I don't know, in the early 90s or whatever. And then it was a different, I mean, live in Toronto, right? Kim Hughes? Kim Hughes. FOTM Kim Hughes? But also the late Dave... Bookie?

Bookie, there you go. And you know, these people, the connections, like I met him when he was working at Book City on Yonge Street, and he was friends who worked there, like Lisa Godfrey, who I mentioned earlier, was working there. And then he was working at worked there, like Lisa Godfrey, who I mentioned earlier, was working there. And then he was working at Sunrise, I think.

But we also were all hanging out at the Bev. I feel like, again, I just realized now, you do really need to cancel your evening plans because we're going through it. And I love this detail, so I'm not even trying to speed you up. But you're connected to to dave badini right and badini very tight with bookie right um and again um all at some point kind of in and out of

like the bev um so the that was a venue where there were bands upstairs for a while three nights a week and then when it's six nights, then they went from six to zero. But a lot of us kind of hung out there downstairs where mostly people talked about hockey and I didn't have much to contribute, but I drank a lot of beer. Right. And Bedini, yeah, like I said, Bedini, that, you know, goes back a bit

because there was a thing in Toronto called an underage um kind of dance thing called uh start dancing and um uh it was at different places but there was a place they used a lot on claremont uh you know one of the a community hall of some sort and um of some sort and um uh so in i saw the reo statics first performance there wow you know yeah and um so that was uh before martin joined um kind of different sounding band and um shadowy man on a shadowy planet um and then lots of bands who were around like the rent boys um i don't know if you've interviewed nick from the rent boys not yet no yeah you should do always looking for good recommendations yeah he's good um zine maker and in band and he's still kind of

making it happen you know he went to england for many years but he's back now so yeah so that's where the bedini thing started but then i also um presented a number of like big shows of the rios at the ago um one when we reopened in 1993 and then um and that was uh like it was just something we hadn't really done like on that scale with rock and roll. Then when we did this thing called the O Canada Project, they presented their music inspired by the Group of Seven, which they did again a few years ago with more money

and the technology was better. Like yourself, Dave Bedini, good FOTM. I want to ask you about Elliot Lefkoe because Elliot, who has told me he loves the program, but politely declined the invitation to appear on Toronto Mic. So I had to get his brother Perry instead.

It was a very different episode. But tell me about your interactions with Elliot. Yeah, Elliot hired me when I was like 18. I mean, he was, I think I was recommended by the guys at the St. Rose Dale Library, I mean he was I think I was Recommended by The guys This ain't the Rosedale library which was

The coolest bookstore in town and Kind of really important for Shaping me I think Charlie and Dan And they recommended Me because Elliot needed basically a Gopher to help I mean that's not really entirely true but someone to

Help him with these poetry events he was doing around town and that was i was into that um but they ranged from like um local people like maya bannerman um who was pretty interesting um to like you know michael and dachi who you know and uh people wouldn't you know just wouldn't have known then but then we started doing these bigger shows like the i say we is really elliot elliot led um like william burroughs 70th birthday party you know at the danforth music hall or he brought in lou reed to do a reading um and uh that was actually kind of bad, but it was kind of fun to be there, you know,

and make it happen. So Elliot, like, yeah, Elliot really supported me and kind of, like, I kind of saw the workings of how these things go on, you know, which was pretty, like, pretty grassroots. I mean, I went around all the venues in Toronto with tickets and an envelope and said, here's your 10 tickets.

And then I'd go back later and pick up the money. It sounds crude. But it's very young in your life here, like wherever we're at in the early to mid 80s now, like that you're kind of friendly with Gary Topp, David Marsden, Elliot Lefkoe. These are kind of the

institutions of this city. Well, Gary, yeah. So Gary and those guys came later in my life. I just didn't know them then. But it was like, yeah, like Brad McNally, I mean, and Tim Keel and someone for sure. Or Peter Goddard. Like, you know, we've just like-

Just lost. See him at a show. Yeah, we just lost. We would see him at a show and say, hey, why did you say what you said about orchestral know orchestral maneuvers in the dark or something you know i mean like we kind of go straight to him or uh you know there were a number of good writers then before i get to the university here i need to ask you about a radio show uh that was important to you brave new waves can you chat with us a bit about what Brave New Waves meant to you?

Yeah. I mean, that was, well, it was a, you know, CBC show that came on, let's say around 11 o'clock at night till five in the morning. It varied and was hosted by a woman called Augusta LaPay and then by Brent Ban bambury um and they had other hosts i'm sure but those were the two and it was really a new music show that crossed boundaries so that you would hear um i remember hearing the swans uh you'd hear like

some neat you know new new york hardcore then philip glass and then steve Philip glass and then Steve Reich and then Glenn Bronca and then, uh, you know, Glenn Gould. And then it's like, it was just kind of, it was like totally, it really was, you know, it really was kind of free form radio. And it really was, it just, you know, it was basically playing all the things that you weren't going to hear on chum, you know, that kind of like, cause you didn't need to my own version of that by the way you would also play all the things you're going to listen and show them like i just like like music and i like to mix it up you know morning becomes eclectic you know kind of style in some ways but it was a show i was in you know i um you know i couldn't i couldn't sleep so i was happy to kind of stay up and you know um my my

ex-girlfriend at one point called me to say you gotta stay up tonight because they're gonna play einstein on the beach you know which is this groundbreaking record by phil glass and robert wilson and um one of the things you know, was most important to me. And, you know, I heard it in CBC, you know. There was also a show before that in CBC on, it was from CBC Vancouver called, I forgot the name of it. But it was kind of really wrecks it,

I'm not remembering the name. It'll come to me in a second. When it comes to you, just it out yeah but it was we would listen to it but it was on like am 740 that's when you know cbc radio was there and it just we couldn't quite get it like it was like we just never quite got the station on whatever radio we're listening to it on but we but we it was so it's like where we first heard so many things um and that we wouldn't have heard in toronto because because cfny went down a certain path um basically something you know a genre got born you know a genre of alternative or independent whatever you want to call it and that started to exclude lots of things.

And then college radio wasn't yet available to us. We were still in high school. So, and they didn't go on the air till, I don't know, 83 or something like that. Yeah. Shout out to Blair Packham.

You know Blair? Yeah. He's a like-minded guy too, I feel like. He played in our series. Okay. Yeah. Shout out to Blair.

Get this out of the- CIUT. Right. Because there's a like-minded guy too, I feel. He played in our series. Okay. Yeah. Shout out to Blair. Get this one. CIUT. Right. Because there's this great debate whether, yeah, when it was U of T radio, I guess it's like closed syndicate. What do you call that when you, basically it's not over the terrestrial airwaves

until it gets broadcast in CKL. Yeah. So CKLN was first. CKLN was first. So that's Ryerson radio. Yeah. Well, then it's like so that's Ryerson radio yeah well they then it then it's like now that's called Regent radio

and then Ryerson is a new version of it although CJRT was the same thing it started as a student thing and then kind of you know this is why I'm going into such detail with you because you're sort of the through you and your memories growing up

in this city, we get the history of the Toronto counterculture, as Weisbach would say, or even just like the alt-media and what kind of shaped you. So now we're finally going to get you to university. You went to U of T.

And I guess you took something in U of T that landed you at the Art Gallery of Ontario. Is that right? Um, I didn't take that. It was actually sort of the opposite. I started a version of a film society. Um, so it was really what I did outside of class.

You know, I didn't, I didn't major in film. I did take some film courses and I befriended some of those professors who I'm still in touch with. And, um, but really it was what we did. Um, a couple of, a few of us did as students, um, to kind of take this thing that was not that interesting and to turn it into something that was, you know, a kind of force in the city. Um, and, um, yeah. And so we, that kind of, so I programmed experimental film, we brought in filmmakers,

took advantage of whatever we could with the resources we had, which were kind of considerable. Kind of something I told my daughter when she went to school. It's like, figure out what you want to do, and then someone will fund you. Like, you just have to kind of sniff around and find out where the money is. In fact, which will not be true later in life, by the way. the money is in fact you want which will not be true later in life by the way um so that um yeah and that led me to ultimately to working at the art gallery of ontario the first time as a film programmer at first and then music programming and other things kind of came out of that just

help me out here uh because i don't think of music programming when i think of the art gallery of ontario so maybe just elaborate on that a little bit. Like what, you know, classical music and folk music and indie music has to do with the Art Gallery? Well, I mean, that's an ongoing debate in any museum. And that's why things like that always play different roles. Like sometimes like it's a family thing or sometimes it's a way to attract youth, you know,

sometimes people see it as integral that, you know, that the boundaries between the art forms are too rigid and so that we should really be celebrating creativity, right? Which is what I believe. But we go through phases. right which is what i believe um but we go through phases and um i so i was there at um a moment where they needed they needed someone to do that like the opening programming in 93 which was like it was like one of our expansions and all that and and um you know we needed to it needed to be a blast right and it's here's the thing about music yeah it's always good times which is not true for most other art forms

maybe it's true for film uh not the kind of films i show always right right but but music whether whether you're going to the opera or you're going to see Lowest of the Low, it's good times. I'm not speaking for everyone, but I think I'm speaking for a lot of people. No, I think that's a fair general observation. So we want to celebrate. We want to bring people in.

We want to make it a good time. So there's music. And then you have the connections. So you have the obvious connections with people like Michael Snow who cross boundaries themselves. But also, like at that time, we did rheostatics and the Flying Bulger, Klezmer Band,

and, you know, just because we're going to say Lois and Lo, but no. They didn't exist yet, I don't think. but, but we did, you know, I was always, you know,

I would do classical music and kids things and world music and all that and a lot of it was making connections with organizations in town that,

the logo back to the 80s, by the way, so. Yeah, wow. They're around, but yeah, Shakespeare, my butt was 91. See, by the way. Yeah, wow. They're around. But yeah, Shakespeare My Butt was 91.

Yeah, so this was... And like you, that's one of my favorite albums, so I should have known. But so that's that. But it's a good question because it's not true that every museum does that. It's not well known that the AGO does that. And we don't always. It comes and goes in different waves and different forms.

I love it though. Like it's just, I don't think I knew that was happening. But this is cool. So, okay. So just because I actually, with all due respect, Jim, I want to get you rock bottom. Okay. If you're comfortable talking about the down times.

Okay. But there is a, so you leave the art gallery and you spend 12 years doing something else essentially is that right i work at bruce ma design which is a great it was a great place and a great great time i learned a lot okay yeah all right right so you're ready that was all the warm-up here we got you to 2007 and i'm again i, I hope you're comfortable talking about this, but in your words, in 2007, you hit bottom. Can you elaborate on what you mean by hitting bottom? Well, I finally got to the point after drinking for more or less for 30 years

where I couldn't do it anymore. I couldn't, but I couldn't not do it. But I couldn't go on. Was it just alcoholism or is there addiction here as well? Yeah, so to me, alcoholism is like, it's like a culinary thing. You know, it's like I was mostly drinking alcohol, but the way I put it is I'm a heroin addict, but I've never done heroin.

I just know that it would agree with me. You know, it would do the trick. Best not to start. So I, but lasagna's okay. Yeah, no, for the record, I am not giving my friend here any Great Lakes beer. It's, and I'm sure. And I regret now that I'm enticing you

if it's laid out so lovingly on the table. Whatever. No, I'm detached. You call me if you get the itch or the urge. It'll talk you down. Yeah, so basically I was in hell because I had kind of, I mean, it's physically and emotionally and mentally

and whatever. It was just like finished. I couldn't, you know, I, and, you know, and that was 15 years ago. And so the more I look back on it too, the more I kind of realize, you know, what my real situation was then, which is not good. you know, what, what my real situation was then, which is not, not good. So I, um, I mean, I had to kind of, uh, you know, I won't go into all the details, uh, but I ended up, um, you know, I ended up in like many detoxes and what I call a detox and emerge and uh you know all this shit um you know just and i ended up in a you know in a rehab homewood in guelph which is a really good place um but then

that led me to uh you know 12-step recovery you know and um um that's sort of, that's saved my life and continues to be, I mean, like what I am really going to once we wind down here is on to AA tonight, you know, so it's a kind of big part of my life. Well, good for you, Jim. Honestly, that's great. Your last drink was October 2007. You're still attending meetings and good for you that you recognized you had a problem and you did something about it. Yeah.

Well, no. No. It's true. No, it's actually like the most important thing, I guess, that ever happened to me was that because... Well, you might not be here today if you didn't uh if this didn't and 15 years ago you didn't take action i think i would not be i think i would not i mean i've known enough people can you imagine if you spent your life you never got a chance to come on toronto mic and talk about all

this great it would have been a wasted life like what's the point right so good on you good on you for all of that and again i'm not outinging you here, but can I ask about anything else? I mean, the drinking and addiction that we talked about, but any other mental health struggles you want to talk about now? Yeah, what became apparent during this is that I was bipolar, which allowed me to stay up listening to Brave New Waves,

but I shouldn't joke too much about that, but it's actually true. I just, like a lot of people dealing with addiction, like I basically was in what I call the ABBA program, the Anything But AA program for a while. I was trying to find any other way or any other way, any other excuse, whatever. And so I thought, oh, I have depression. Because of course, if you drink all the time, you will be depressed. It's a depressant. I mean, you should enjoy one or two cans of Great Lake Brewery beer. Yeah, everything in moderation.

But you have to, but I'm not moderate, right? So that was my problem. I don't really like moderation, not when it comes to but my friend if you uh if you're bipolar then you would you would self-medicate during times of media uh mania sorry with a uh so mania to me just felt like what I was supposed to feel like I felt like energetic and I was really like you know like happy happy and creative and doing all this stuff. But of course, um, it was much more sinister than that. And, um, um, and that is what interesting thing is.

Don't quote me. I, um, but, um, from what I've read, uh, more people who are bipolar and I,

I prefer the term manic depressive because it's descriptive, but people are manic depressive, uh, commit suicide when they're, when they're manic than when they are, when they're depressive. it's descriptive but people are manic depressive commit suicide when they're when they're manic than when they are when they're depressive that's interesting i did not know that because you are um i had a friend who did so uh somewhat recently um and i think it just gives you that kind of confidence like it's all going to be okay you know right you know and i also you feel like you have all the answers like and this is is just another solution that you've concocted.

That's exactly it. Yeah. And so, so that, so I have, in addition to, you know, being part of the 12 step program,

I also have been medicated for bipolar effectively, you know, effectively. I mean, I know it does, it kind of, you know. You know, effectively meaning I know it does, it kind of, you know, people can't see this, but, you know, bipolar is like this kind of, you know, you're kind of up and down and have these big highs. And so I live in the middle.

And it's a good place to be sometimes. So you're basically this medication you're on, the lows aren't as low, but the you're on uh the lows aren't as low and but the trade-off is the highs aren't as high right right so um and then it does although it's not responsible for my alcoholism uh it certainly um complicated it okay so yeah there's your 2007 jim sheddon hits rock bottom all right now I happen to know you become a dad like shortly thereafter. So actually the dad thing starts in 98. Okay.

Okay. Okay. See, someone's getting fired at the TMDS staff. Bad. Yes, of course. I now see. Yeah. So 98, your daughter Meredith was born.

Okay. So do you return? So you hit the bottom. Do you return to Art Gallery of Ontario sort of after you? Oh, actually, so I'm still at Bruce Mao Design when this happens. Right.

So I start, everything happens in 98. So I'm there for a few more years. And it's fine. But then it makes sense to return to the AGO. And that's something I never thought I would do. But that happened in 2010. Okay. So from 2010 to the present moment right now,

because you literally came here from the Art Gallery of Ontario, you're at the AGO. So maybe I'll shout out a couple of sponsors now really quickly here. And then maybe you can give us some highlights and some of the work you're proud of at the AGO since 2010. Is that cool? So you got your lasagna. This

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ProperlyHomes.ca So shout out to Sammy Cone. All right, 2010. Back of the Art Gallery of Ontario. Give me some of the highlights. Some of the work, curated exhibitions, etc. during your last, whatever that is now. Was that 13 years, 12 years?

Yeah, 12 years and a bit, I guess. But just before I go to the AGO. Okay, I like it. We're going back. I work with Sarah Weinstein-Kum, who's Sammy's wife at Bruce Mao. See, that's what we like here. The mind blows.

Really? See, that's a fun fact right there. But I leave to go to the aga where i will eventually work with laura cumberford who's bob willett's wife right that's wild drop you know you were holding on to these you held on to that one because i dropped willette like a half an hour ago anytime these things cross your mind you spit them into that microphone i love it like everything's connected man it's a small world after all. Okay. You go from here because, go ahead. Just go.

Yeah. Well, I've done, yeah. So since I've been back at the AGO, I've done a variety of, some public programs, but mostly I've been focused on publishing. And I don't know how many books we've done. It's like a lot. We've done a lot of books.

I have a few of them. So recently, I mean, a book I just gave to Mike is the Leonard Cohen Everybody Knows book, which accompanies the exhibition, which is currently on at the AGO right now. And it was such a pleasure to work on this because I'm like such a, I have been a Leonard Cohen fan

for a really, really long time. And I won't go into the stories about when I wasn't a fan, but that, you know, it's been like, it was so great to, such a privilege to kind of dig in the archive, which is really what our show was about. Right.

And. So you co-edited this book. I co-edited the book with uh julian cox he's my boss he's the chief curator and he curated the exhibition cool i mean we kind of like worked you know alongside each other we both went down to the cohen archive in la and kind of dug around and got to know the characters there and stuff so So that was, so that's like, that's kind of a highlight. And then we've talked about I Am Here, which is a highlight. I'd say another one that was, it's interesting.

I did an exhibition and book on Guillermo del Toro. And that was for, that was an exhibition that went from LA to Minneapolis to Toronto, but we, each time we transformed it and I had the benefit of the other venues because we just got the ability to make it better and better and to work more and more with Guillermo, which is hard to do because he's so busy and here and there and all that. But it was,

it was always, it was always a great, you know, a great thing, like just such an honor to work with someone that brilliant. And yeah, I mean, on it goes.

Well, here, let me, let me prompt for a little bit here. So I know in 2013 that you, you made a personal documentary about recovery called I Drink. Yeah, so that was outside the, that was like just on my own,

like just something me and someone else in the program had to do. And it started out like I was going to interview a number of people in recovery. And then I asked my father and my sister, who are both in recovery, if they would be in it. And I thought they'd say no. And they said yes. So then I changed course because then I realized I had to be in it.

And so there's kind of that through line. And, you know, speaking of radio, it's called I Drink, named after a song by Mary Gauchier, who's fantastic. And I didn't know who she was, but I heard her on Bob Dylan's Theme Time Radio Hour,

which is my second favorite. I know it's a radio show, but after Mike. After Toronto Mike, too. Because I like Bob Dylan. Well, Dylan and I are neck and neck. Shout out to FOTM, Lauren Honigman, the biggest Dylan fan I know. That Toronto Mike. I like Bob Dylan. Well, Dylan and I are neck and neck. A shout out to FOTM, Lauren Honigman,

the biggest Dylan fan I know. That's right. So yeah, that, that's kind of, you know, that we made that film in order to kind of reach other people because we hear these great stories in AA and they're kind of what,

you know, one of the things that really keeps us sober, but the people don't get to hear them until they come into the rooms. So we want to make a film that allowed some of our experience to come, you know, get out there into the world and maybe help, you know, someone else identify. Okay. The last thing I want to talk about is 1000 songs, but before the last thing I want to talk about, see, I'm just teasing it. That's what we do in podcast world here. I want to just go back to the Toronto Botanical Garden.

Okay, so you were programming the music for the Toronto Botanical Garden and now is a good chance. I thought maybe this is like 2011 to 2013, but you could like name check some of the Toronto singer songwriters that you got to work with on that project. What say you? Yeah, I mean, it was a series that, um, it's like a, it still goes on.

I think it's Thursday night. It was Thursday nights when we were doing it from seven 30 till eight 30. It was a very simple series. Um, and, um, we, uh, I did it for three years and it was really fun cause I hadn't programmed music for a number of years at that point. Um, and we did it for three years and it was really fun because I hadn't programmed music for a number of years at that point. And we did it outside mostly. So it's totally, and the Toronto Technical Gardens, people don't know is like nestled inside out Edwards Gardens up at Leslie and Lawrence.

But it's kind of, it's like a, it's a different thing. And I don't know, there was like, there was a real range. Like we had Jane Burnett, which was I think one of the most popular things we did. And it was just like, great. I think it was like really hot out. It was like, it was just, these things were really packed. Like, you know, and then that was fantastic.

And then Trishy Shankaran, who I programmed a number of times, and it's just always such a, I always go into some kind of trance. Darbozzi, who were a Georgian group, who were kind of breathtaking. And, I mean, Laura Hubert, who's going to be in the series that I'm doing called Tavern of Song. At some point, I don't have a solid date for her. That was always fun. And, I mean, on it goes. In Tavern of Song, you get to do that with your daughter, right?

So what's that like when you're working and collaborating with your daughter? It's really good. You know, there's moments where it's like she must resent me because I've done this kind of thing a lot and she hasn't. Right. And I kind of, but I don't want to tell her what to do or anything, but we've had a great time. We've done six so far and the seventh is coming up.

It's in our local pub the dominion uh which is at um queen and sumac yeah i know well yeah absolutely so uh do you want to name check uh any of the musicians that uh like like like i'm this is a live music series so what you just you guys mc i guess the uh yeah my daughter mcs and we come up with a theme and their theme is like sometimes a bit of a lark. And then, but like, for example, coming up on February 9th, we have, because it's just before Valentine's Day, the theme is I will always love you

versus I may not always love you, right? And Laurie Yates is going to be performing. He's great. And then Ben Page, he doesn't want me to say it this way, but he's like son of Stephen Page. But he's a very, you know, he's his own person. He's been totally amazing. You know, there's been a backlash lately.

I learned this from Precious Chong. She came over and her dad is Tommy Chong. And she was telling me, and then since she mentioned it, I dove into it online and I realized it's a real thing. There's a backlash right now against Nepo babies, they're called. So the children of famous people where the doors fly open. Yeah, well, I don't think that's true of them. And I have to apologize because Ben's pronouns are they, them,

and I always screw it up. So I apologize here on air. And not to say Ben is an Epo baby, but it is an interesting time right now for people like the Kate Hudsons of the world. Well, and the last person, um marker starling is on this bill too and marker is uh is actually a fellow called chris cummings who's uh was was mantler before and uh is really i think one of the most uh underrated uh performers um but the um

those are coming up but yeah like you know yeah we have it but we have an era of Adam Cohen, for example. Tal Bachman, number one hit. She's So High. Right, and then he left the church. And then there's Paul Simon's son, who recorded a record that sounds amazing, but he did not want to do it because he knows he sounds just like Paul

Simon, you know. Interesting. Interesting. I'm thinking, is it Devin Cuddy, I think, a great musician. Absolutely. So yeah, it's interesting. The doors fly open, but those doors don't stay

open. Like, yes, you do get that opportunity because of, you know, who your mom or dad or whatever is. But at some point, if you don't have it, get out of here. Well, I would say that in the indie world, for example, in Toronto,

more people know who Shubha Shankaran is than Trishy Shankaran. Not that either is like a household name, but I think people won't even know that she has this relatively famous father. But Ben Page will be participating in the Tavern of Song yeah cool so all right cool tell me about this 1000 songs podcast because it's right up my alley and i need to be buried

in details right now um well it relates to my my recovery in a way because i um suddenly i felt this need to make a list of songs that mattered to me. That's how it started. And then I was trying to do it as a blog, and I thought, oh, and the blogosphere, no one can hear you scream, you know? It's like, it was like, I wasn't. I hear you.

But Facebook was basically brand new, and I thought, what about this Facebook group thing? So I started a Facebook group. While I started it, I don't think I went public with it till i got out of of rehab but it was right at that time and i thought i'll write on one song a day because at this time i'm not at work so writing a song a day seemed like a possibility and then whoever responds responds um well in the end it took uh so that should have taken three and a half years and it took seven. So, um, you know, just took longer and they became more elaborate and it totally obsessed

me for that time. And then a number of other people, um, some of whom really know more about music than I do. And I know a lot, so I'm not being humble there. I'm just saying that the, you know, there's always a bigger fish. Yeah. They, they're, they're, so they, they made it their home too, you know, there's always a bigger fish. Yeah. They, they're, they're, so they, they made it their home too, you know?

Um, and so we did a thousand and, you know, kind of wrapped it up in 2014. And then like eight years later, um, we started a podcast, um, the three, three of us who were most active in it, uh, Alan Zweig, uh, Rick Campbell and I, and we're going back and looking at the songs, like throwing out one of the songs that we did then to say, what did we say?

And then we have a guest, you know, who, you know, so for example, for episode three, we, we looked at, there's guys in love with you. That was the song written by Burt Bacharach. Well, for the guest, I got Kurt Swinghammer. Wow.

Who is the biggest Bacharach fan I know. Also, somebody on, I have a, I have a list, like literally there's a list of like guests I need to get on Toronto Mike. He's on the list. Well,

he should be on the list. Yeah, for sure. So that was great to have him there. And then, you know, sort of, so it sort of goes on, but it's really, it kind of,

I moved away from the idea that this would be like some definitive list. Just, it's like a thousand means that there could be 10,000. I just like music, you know. I love the premise of this. This is my cup of tea here. By the way, Alan's on the list too. You can let him know you're on the list. This is a great list.

Okay. But I love this idea of like, so I guess it's like a deep dive into each of the songs. Each episode is a deep dive into one of these 1,000 songs. That's right. Although we're coming at it from different, slightly different points of view, because sometimes the shares became really personal.

So it would all be the kind of MacGuffin, right? Like, oh, the shares became really personal. So it'd be the, they would all be the kind of MacGuffin, right? Like, Oh, this is in theory, we're talking about, uh, whatever.

Um, um, you know, it doesn't matter. Um, uh, so you gotta get stuck. I can't like just name a song,

Jim come together. Uh, by the Beatles. Let me, I just understand you were struggling to come up with the name of a song there. Any song. That's, That's wild. This is too many.

It's like, yeah, it's like the paradox of choice. Right. I don't know how to buy toothpaste anymore. And ask my wife. It's a real thing. I can't buy a tooth. I don't know how to buy toothpaste

because there's too many options. And I kind of get lost. And it's like, just offer me maybe a gel and then a paste and then i could decide if i want a gel or a paste i could have said sad-eyed lady of the lowlands bob dylan right sugar sugar or something shout out to andy kim um so um that's on our list with my wife and daughter by the way but um and and one of us might want to talk about, you know,

different versions of the song and what it could possibly mean and how it actually sounds like Kris Kristofferson or something like that. And another one of us will want to talk about how we heard it in Germany, the stuff we broke up with this girl. Sure, the music, the personal things. Yeah, love it. Like, I love it. and then I guess you guys will

speak to what it means to you personally and then you can look at it kind of objectively like is this a good song like you know what I mean like I guess I don't know I'm just I gotta listen to this so now that I know there is at least one in the public realm right like I can hear one today and listeners of this show could hear one episode today

yeah it's it's you know you gotta start somewhere listen there's no you know. You got to start somewhere. Listen, there's no, I'm not even trying to say, what do you mean only one? I want to binge all 1,000. Like, this is awesome. You did an episode. The hardest thing is to do the first,

and then you get into a rhythm, and then these will start to appear into the public realm. That's awesome. So we have a guest each time, so we can have you on as a guest. Can I talk about Sugar Sugar? Since I did have some very like uh wonderful one-on-one moments with andy kim uh absolutely we had coffee we were talking about his father it was quite a quite a nice conversation that was before we got down here

to turn on the mics is it so he he, he didn't sing on the song. No, he did not sing on the song. They found someone who sounded like him. I don't know if they found someone who sounded like him or something Barry. I want to say, I can't remember his name,

Rick, I want to say Rick Barry. Yeah. Is it Rick Barry? But there's, yeah, definitely not Andy Kim singing on that song. Although he might because there's like a,

there's a bit of a, like a blend of other voices in that song and I think he might be one of those. But he's like a co-writer of Sugar Sugar. So I'm going to, so my own digression for a second here.

Well, that's what we do here. I saw the most amazing thing with him, which was at Kumbaya, which was organized by your friend. Molly Johnson! Molly Johnson, who worked with me on a music series

did you get along well with her? I did actually I want to get along well with her you've got a problem so it was at a kumbaya and the Barenaked Ladies came out it was still in the page days

and they brought out their guest and their guest was Andy Kim. Andy Kim, yes. Who had not performed for ever. And he did, you know, oh my God. Rock Me Gently. Yeah, Rock Me Gently. Big, big, big cank on jam.

I did know that there was like a special relation, because I know that when Andy Kim has his Christmas special, Christmas concert or whatever he has, often you'll see one of the BNL people will be there or all of them or whatever. Very cool. I think the Tragically Hip were at that Kumbaya too. I feel like I should do a deep dive into the Kumbaya festival on the show. And I mean, that's a big reason why Molly Johnson's got the Order of Canada today

because that was a great philanthropic effort on her behalf. And I, by the way, I know you're kind of joking, winky-winky, but you're talking, you're looking at a guy who has huge respect and admiration for Molly Johnson and is a big fan of hers. Just for the record. I don't think it's mutual necessarily, but I heard the episode.

We had a big hug at the end, Jim. It's like, we're going to have after our picture. Okay, Jim Shedden, you just made your Toronto mic debut. You are a listener, so I know that you kind of had an idea what to expect, but were there any surprises here?

Did it all unfold as you thought it would? Is the ceiling as low as you thought it would be? Please tell us all, what is it like, your first appearance in the TMDS studio?

I do miss, if you want to have a beer, I do miss hearing the beer. Well, you know what, I purposely didn't because I felt bad because I forgot you were in recovery. I liked hearing it. i was going to pop it on the mic and

then i thought don't be an asshole and drink a fresh craft beer in front of a man who doesn't i'm good partake i know you're good and i'm glad you're good but i chose not to crack one open i show great restraint but uh any anything like i don't want you on your way driving back to the art gallery or wherever you're off to thinking, oh rats. I just picture you as a guy who says rats. You'll be like, oh rats, I wanted to mention X or I didn't get a chance to promote

this. This is your moment before lowest of the low take us home. Well, I don't know. There's one other thing coming up. Okay, tell me. A few years ago, the well, I don't know. There's one other thing coming up. Okay. Tell me, um, uh, a few years ago, the person who made, uh,

I drink with me, um, Peter McCall, um, Macaulay. And I started a film, um, called music swims back to me,

which is, uh, from a poem. Um, but it was really, the idea was to interview mostly everyday people talking about the role of music in their lives. Yeah. Although there'd be some non-everyday.

We interviewed Gary Taub, for example. Yeah, he's not an everyday person. Not exactly everyday. And Steve Cain. Right. But they're in my life that way. Right. And we shot like 40 interviews or something

and then started to cut the film together. And then the pandemic happened. And my friend Peter got, you know. Anyways anyways i had another idea at a certain point which was that i don't want to do another documentary where you take like 30 seconds from all this footage and connect it to something else so it sounds intelligible in the movie i want to just like let these things be and just edit lightly edit edit these profiles. So I'm working on that with the CBC. AC Rowe. With AC, but not on her.

No, it's not a CBC thing. It's just an independent thing. Side hustle there, a little love. Yeah. So we're just. Love of the game.

We're just having some fun doing this and that'll be coming out. I mean, I'm not sure. We'll probably, you know, release them like five or six at a time, you know? So what should they do with Ontario place?

It's consuming my thoughts. I don't even, if you can, you don't have to answer that, but it is something that I've been spending a lot of time thinking about because I go to Ontario Place a lot on my bicycle and I passionately dislike this proposal that's being considered for a private spa with underground parking for 2,000 vehicles

and I just figured maybe you had thought about Ontario Place yourself. They should hand it over to the City of Toronto with a bag of cash that they can do something in an integrated way with the C&E honoring the heritage of Ontario Place and that moment when Ontario

used to mean something. The Bill Davis Robarts moment. A place to stand, a place to grow. Right. So that was brilliant. It was an important part of my childhood, but there's no fucking way anything's good is going to come out of it with this current government. So that's kind of what... Will you join me? I'm actually considering chaining myself

to the Cinesphere. You want to join me? Me and Jim Shedden. Maybe we'll get Ben Rayner in on this. He's here Monday night. I keep looking for the forum. What happened to the forum? Yeah. The forum gone. And then they have this new place that it's like, they call it Echo Beach. And I had

Martha and the Muffins here and they were not compensated in any way. Do you know why they called it Echo Beach? Because Mark wrote a song called Echo Beach. Okay, come on. That sucks. It all sucks. It all sucks. By the way, you might enjoy Lorraine Sagato was on the program last week and I feel like you might. Oh, you heard that? Okay, you're up That sucks. It all sucks. It all sucks. By the way, you might enjoy Lorraine Segata was on the program last week. That was great.

Oh, you heard that? Okay, you're up to date. Love it. Love it. Love this, Jim. Won't be the last time we hear from FOTM Jim Shedden. Long may you run. And that brings us to the end of our 1184th show.

We now know Jim Shedden better than we know our own siblings and members of her own family. I love it. Love it. You can follow me on Twitter. I'm at Toronto Mike. Jim is at Jim Shedden. Our friends at Great Lakes Brewery are at Great Lakes Beer. Palma Pasta is at Palma Pasta.

Don't leave without your lasagna, champ. Recycle My Electronics are at EPRA underscore Canada. Ridley Funeral Home are at Ridley FH. Canna Cabana are at Canna Cabana underscore. And Sammy Cone Real Estate is at Sammy Cone K-O-H-N. Going to my calendar now to tell you who's next on the program. I should have done this earlier.

It is... Oh, I just dropped his name a minute ago. Next on the program, Ben Rayner. See you all then. And I'll play this guitar just the best that I can Maybe I'm not and maybe I am But who gives a damn Because everything is coming up Rosy and gray

Yeah, the wind is cold But the smell of snow warms me today And your smile is fine and it's just like mine and it won't go away because everything is rosy and gray well i've kissed you in france and i've kissed you in spain and i've kissed you in places I better not name And I've seen the sun go down on Chaclacour But I like it much better going down on you

Yeah, you know that's true Because everything is coming up Rosy and gray. Yeah, the wind is cold, but the smell of snow warms us today. And your smile is fine, and it's just like mine, and it won't go away. Because everything is rosy now. Everything is rosy, yeah. Everything is rosy now, everything is rosy and everything is rosy and gray.