Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Joel Greenberg: Toronto Mike'd Podcast Episode 1925

Episode Date: June 30, 2026

On this 1925th episode of Toronto Mike'd, Mike chats with Joel Greenberg about perceived antisemitism in Canada's theatre community.A version of this podcast without programmatic ads is available to all Toronto Mike'd Patrons at patreon.com/torontomike.Toronto Mike'd, an award-winning podcast, is proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, Toronto Maple Leafs Baseball, Ridley Funeral Home, Nick Ainis, and RecycleMyElectronics.ca.If you would like to support the show, we do have partner opportunities available. Please email Toronto Mike at [e-mail]. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hi, this is Joel Greenberg. I am the host of a podcast that Mike, Toronto Mike, produces for me, called Life in Stages. Today, I am a guest in Mike's world, and I am eager to have him take charge and lead me, us, through whatever this conversation becomes. So, very happy to be back here. And thanks, Mike. Welcome to episode 1,925, 1925 of Toronto Mike. An award-winning podcast, proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery.

Order online at great lakes beer.com for free local home delivery in the GTA. Palma pasta. Enjoy the taste of fresh. Homemade Italian pasta and entrees from Palma Pasta in Mississauga and Oakville. Visit palmaPasta.com for more. Toronto Maple Leafs Baseball. Catch a game at Christy Pits this summer. No ticket required.

Fusion Corp's own Nick Aienies. He's the host of Building Toronto Skyline and Mike and Nick, two podcasts that you ought to listen to. Recycle My Electronics.c.a.committing to our planet's future means properly recycling our electronics of the past. And Ridley Funeral Home, pillars of the community since 1921. Joining me today, returning to Toronto Mike, he's the host of life and stages. Joel Greenberg. Welcome back, Joel.

Thank you, Mike. I gave it my, what is that like, when you have like monster truck rally or something? Her wrestling, maybe. Maybe. Is it too much for, too much? No, I, no, nothing you do is too much, Mike. Well, I don't know if I agree with that. Okay.

Well, welcome back. How, how are you doing? Good. I'm good. Yeah, thanks. Is it hot enough for you out there? Yeah, but your studio is so cool. Both in its literal and it's, um, it's going to say, I've never been called cool before.

Yeah, well, okay. We're here with, in Brian Linehan. Did you ever meet Brian Linehan? I did. I did. One of the many, many dinner theater shows that I did in the 70s and 80s was a show called A Bite of the Big Apple. And it had different MCs, like sort of compares, MCs. And Brian was one of the guests. So I did get to meet him yet.

Okay. I bring them up because you said, cool. And I said, oh, you're just seeing Brian Linehan's photo way buried back here. But I love hearing all the stories about Brian Linehan. hand. Okay, so I'm going to remind listeners a little bit about who you are, and then I'm going to set the table for this, a special episode of Toronto Mike. Okay. So you, if people want to know the A to Z of Joel Greenberg's career in theater and more, you want to dig up in the archives. All the episodes of Toronto Mike are available on demand right now. Did you know that? So there's, this is 1925. That's crazy, right, Joel? We're going to hit 2,000 episodes at some point.

You know, you probably, I'm going to maybe audition, audition, have the highest bidder, auction off the episode 2,000. Like, highest bidder, but the money's not going to charity. It's going to me. Oh, okay. I just want, this is an idea that just hit me right now. Who wants episode 2,000? How much are you willing to pay for that?

Okay. You were here in September. And later I'll explain you're here quite a bit, and you're going to be here quite a bit. But let me get through this, which is that you are here for Toronto. Mikeed. Yes. In September 2024. Yep.

Almost two years ago. We showed great restraint by not having you on more frequently. Okay. And here's the description I wrote at the time. In this, oh, you had a cool number then, too. So you're 1925 now, but you were 1,555. So in this 1,55th episode of Toronto Mikeed, Mike chats with, and I'm going to, you tell me if I mispronounce this.

Dora Maver. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Dora Maver Moore Award and Chalmers Award, winning actor, director, choreographer, playwright, and teacher, Joel Greenberg, about his decades of theater direction and his recent pivot to podcasting with life and stages.

So I'm going to unpack that just to remind people who you are. But if they want the deep dive, they've got to go to episode 15555.155 of Toronto Mike. But I was coincidentally, yesterday I was online on Facebook, I think, And multiple people I'm connected to on Facebook, we're talking about being at the Dora Maver Moore Awards last night. So remind us what are the Dora Maver Moore Awards. And are you aware of what transpired last night?

No. The Dora Maver Moore Awards were started like the early 80s, I think. And it was the cities, the Toronto Theater communities, acknowledgement of excellence in the course of a season. And that, you know, the awards themselves have grown, developed a lot. There are many, many more awards now than there were, well, for instance, when I put a new award. When did you win? I think, well, for directing, I think it was 83, 84, something like that, for a musical called Aetmisbehaven.

And... Is that a Mervish thing? No. Why do I think I see the poster in, like, honest ads or something? I don't know. Okay. There may have been a touring production that they brought in. No, this was done...

This was Marlene Smith, who produced a lot of the work that I did then. And it was at what was then the Ports Dinner Theater, which, in the course of the run, I mean, it was a very successful production. The production had to close because the Ports was... about to become a condominium. And so the show moved to, it opened the, what was then the premier dance theater, Queens Key Terminal had just opened.

Right. So that was, that was that. No, I wasn't at the awards. In fact, you know, I find awards, like best of things, they make me, I find them so repellent, actually. Okay. Because I do, I mean, I really do think that if, if you're looking at sort of the best of the season and you, you know, you create, you have nominees, I think that should be, I mean, that should be the acknowledgement.

You're saying these four or five shows or these people, you know, are, we're outstanding this season. The fact you have to choose one, I said, oh, come on. I mean, this is, I don't get it. And, you know, yes, I have, I have mine. Is it on display somewhere proudly? It is, it is actually on a bench between several very, very large plants. So if you know what it, and I think the award, I think the design of it has changed. I think, I'm not sure.

But, you know, this was a long, I mean, it was really, it was 40 plus years ago. And, you know, I understand, you know, in New York with the Tonys and London with the Olivier Awards, that those awards are really, I think there is much marketing, a marketing device as they are in acknowledgement. But I still find, you know, when you're saying the best play of the year, here are the nominees for the best. And I said, oh, God, you know, that should, anyway, that, if I were running it, that's, that's as far as it would go, but I'm not.

So. No, that's interesting. Because, of course, they don't, these, these award shows are like marketing tools, right? So they're just, it's just, I guess it creates the, the excitement and the drama to have the winner, right? And then you get exposed to all these shows and then you go to the theater. Well, you know, the thing is, and this is not to take any, really,

not to, I'm not looking for, you know, opportunities to slam the Dora's, but the Dora Awards, and I don't even know what shows were nominated this year, frankly, and I certainly don't know who won. But if this year was, um, like many previous seasons, by the time these awards happen, all the shows that you're, I mean,

all the shows are over. Oh, you can't go see the shows no, you learn about at the awards. Yeah. Well, that's interesting.

And then, you know, it's not like you can rent them at Blogbuster or whatever. No, no, you can't. And, um,

there's a reference for you. That, yes, the, the live streaming option hasn't yet taken over. Thank you. I knew there's a replacement

for blogguster. I couldn't quite figure out what fine. Yeah. So I think, you know, so that's a, that is a little, I mean, it's very, I guess the word is, it's very in-house.

And for the people who like it, you know, to use, to paraphrase and borrow from the prime of Miss Jean Brody, for people who like that thing, that is the sort of thing they like. Right. So, no, I was watching, what was I? Oh, I was watching your friends and neighbors. Oh, the second season. Yeah, yeah. with John Hamm. The last couple of episodes, yeah, yeah.

Okay, you weren't watching World Cup action. The match I watched last night at 9 p.m. The Netherlands were taken on Morocco, and I was keen to watch, and I'm going to check your pulse whether you give a rat's ass about any of this. My guest yesterday doesn't care at all. Not even a little bit,

so you'll be in good company if that's where you land. But this match was significant to me because the winner of this match is our next competitive. so we will face off. And it turns out Morocco won in a shootout. The Netherlands are out, and we will face Morocco in the next round. And then, of course, if we beat Morocco,

we'll be one of eight countries left in this tournament. Joel, I'm gauging your interest level in the World Cup in Canada's performance. If Canada plays against Morocco, when's that going to be again? Saturday? Yeah. When that match happens, I can't remember it's in my calendar. But will you tune in? Will you care?

Oh, I'll watch it. So you will come in for the Canada matches. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, it's, you know, coincidentally, I've just, I'm in halfway through a memoir by a Canadian sport, I think principally a sports writer, certainly what he was when he started. His name is Chris Jones. It's a really terrific memoir. And I was reading it because there was an excerpt of it in the, I think it was in the Atlantic,

and it was very compelling. And I didn't realize until I started reading this that he's a soccer fiend. This has nothing to do with FIFA, but it has everything to do with the fact he was born in and grew up in England and talks about his grandfather's favorite team and how he followed it. There is so much time spent talking about soccer in this book. I just want to get to the like the personal stuff, which is, yeah, no, the personal stuff is really compelling. Right. But that suddenly I am reading about something I've never read about before. Yeah, the premiership.

And there's different, they have different levels over there and you get promoted or relegated. We don't have that in our agreement. Exactly, exactly. Fascinating because my son has adopted Chelsea as his team. And I asked someone, I think why Chelsea? We don't think it's a London team.

He's like, there was a player on Chelsea he liked and that was it. And he had to pick some team, you know, and I didn't pick a team at all because I don't have to pick a team. But, you know, but I do. want to shout out another soccer fiend who grew up in Ireland who is excited about your return to Toronto Mike. Do you know what name I'm about to drop on you? John Doyle. John Doyle. Yes. And he just

wrote a piece for the Toronto Star. That's fabulous. Yeah. He's a, well, he's, you know, Globe and Mail. They don't hire schlubs over there. I have a lot of respect in time for John Doyle, but he is a big Joel Greenberg fan. Oh, that's nice. No, he, I, I've been reading his articles. He's such a good writer. And it's so nice to, I, to have to see him in print. Because he's, I don't know exactly when he retired from the globe, but. You'll have to listen to his Toronto Mike debut to find out. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. Okay. I don't know, like eight years ago or something like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I haven't read the TV listings or the TV reviews since he left. So, um, right. It is, he's, he is so good. You know, when you read the, the, I think he's now written maybe three articles for the star for about. And it is, you know, when you're reading it, even though I don't actually understand a lot, he doesn't get very technical, but you reading it, you hear and feel his passion. It's great.

Agreed, agreed. John Doyle, big booster of this Canadian team. And I'm very proud and excited that we have actually won a knockout game. And that we, and I'm giving us a puncher's chance against Morocco because I don't know any better. I'm not John Doyle, you know. I'm not Tobias Vaughn. What do I know here? But, uh, so that's happening. And I think Blair Packham needs to read John Doyle maybe to appreciate what's going on here.

He's the gentleman who, uh, couldn't, doesn't give a rat's ass about any of it. I said, if Canada's in the final, which we'll never, I'm realist. I know this is a pipe dream. But yeah, if Canada's in the final, will you find your way to a television somewhere, maybe a public viewing or whatever? Yeah, nah, he'd rather talk about Springsteen or. or something. So, okay, but the other gentleman I want to shout out, who's a big Joel Greenberg superfan,

is my dear friend, Lorne Honickman. Oh. So Lauren Honickman and John Doyle, there's just two examples of people. Very excited you're returning here. So, that's nice. Before we change the channels and get into this very special episode of Toronto Mike,

can you just remind us? Because I noticed it didn't make my intro I wrote in September, 24. But remind us what is Studio 180 theater? Oh. And how are you still tied to it? Well, Studio 180 Theatre is an independent theater, which means it doesn't have its own venue, like other companies, like Necessary Angel, Nightwood Theater. There are many similarly sort of nomadic theater companies. Studio 180 Theater began with a production of the Canadian premiere of a production called The Laramie Project, which was about the brutal murder of Matthew Shepard. Right. That was in 2003.

And it came about because I had, I was teaching at the University of Waterloo. And early 2000s, I got in touch with, you know, I would occasionally see former students. So by now, these students were 10, you know, had graduated 10 years earlier. And they were, that particular group of, a particular group of students, they were a particular group students, they were a phenomenal cohort, really, really interesting and curious and eager, and they worked so well together. And, you know, in seeing people a few times, they said it would be so great if those of us still trying to create a career for ourselves, if we could do a production together, because in this world, in the world of theater, it's hard enough to find work,

let alone find work that eight or ten people who you gather together can do unless you self-produce, which is what we decided to do. And so we did the Laramie project, and the aim was to do just one play, to do it. It did very well, and we did it again the following year, and then we did another play called the Arab-Israeli cookbook. And after that, I said, you know, if you want to do more, that's great, you should do it. The sort of starting at the beginning with every production is really, really hard. You spend, it takes so much energy and time to just get the machine moving.

And shortly after that, by absolute good chance, by luck, one of the people who had helped to fund the Arab-Israeli cookbook approached me and asked what. studio what I would like to do next, how that would work. And these people who have a foundation said they were very interested in helping to support Studio 180 theater. And so it became an ongoing entity because I'd said, you know, I said, doing these one-off shows is just too hard. I said, there's definitely an audience for what we're doing.

And what Studio 180 does is social and political theater. And so it became an ongoing not-for-profit, registered company. And that was this season, I think, is the 24th. Something like that. I stepped down as artistic director. I was one of five people who was sort of the founding members of the company. The other four people were former students. And I was the founding sort of artistic director,

and I was with the company for the first 20 years. And then exactly three years ago in June of 2023, I stepped down as artistic director. And the company continues. You know, it's like many other companies, the coming out of COVID has been a huge challenge. But they, you know, they are still there. And very busy and the education program is,

hugely successful. And I keep it, you know, I'm not, I'm not, you know, I'm not an integral part of the company, but I certainly am aware of what they're doing. And when I read plays or see a play that I think would be a good fit, I send it along. And if I feel it's a really good fit, then I will nudge and pester and say, you know, so, so, what do you think? What do you think? And it's not about me doing the work.

It's about, you know, when you, when you, when I come across and it's the, you know, I guess the same as when I was artistic director. When I come across a play that, you know, sort of gets hold of me and won't let go, I take that, I said, you know, I want, the play deserves an audience. So that's, that's Studio 180 theater. Now, I listen to Life and Stages, the podcast that did make the description, and I'll get a status update on that in a moment. But so, but you have loved ones still tied to Studio 180, right?

I do. My daughter. You're on the stand here, Joel. Yes. Cross-exam. My daughter, Jessica, really created and has developed and built the education program. She's an actor as well, and she's certainly intimately involved in the running of the company. And Mark McGrinder, who was one of the founding members with me and was a student of mine, I think we met in 1990 when he was starting university. So I I've known him for a long time. And just, you know, as luck, fate would have it, Mark is now my son-in-law. I mean, he met Jessica long after, I knew him for many years before he met Jessica. But Mark is the current artistic director. And he was the associate artistic director for quite a few years before I stepped down. Okay.

So just to hammer that home, that's wild to me. So you were Mark's teacher? Yeah. And then he was one of the, you mentioned that there's five, five of you. Was it you plus four students? That's right. That's right. And he's one of those four.

Correct. Okay. And he just, he goes on, it's very like, feels like a Shakespeare play or something. Like he marries your daughter, Jessica. And now they're both, you've stepped away. You've retired. Yes. And it's because of your retirement that life and stages was born.

Yeah. And I'll just say this, as I am biased here because I produce the show. But anybody with even a little interest. and Canada's theater scene, and that would be people like the aforementioned Lauren Honnickman or John Doyle, and people who, any interest at all, will be fascinated by life and stages

because you, it's similar to the show, and you give your guest a chance to breathe and have an actual conversation, and you're very good at guiding these conversations with many actors and directors and many of our playwrights in this country. I think it's a fantastic podcast series. Thank you.

Thank you. Yeah. I've enjoyed it. No, well, big deal. I mean, I continue to enjoy it. I mean, this is, the fourth season is running now. And I will be doing, we will be doing the fifth season. We will be recording the fifth season later this summer.

I need a sound effect for that. So the good news for listeners of life and stages, as you're listening to, because we've recorded and packaged up all the episodes, So it's from season four and they're dropping is it's every Tuesday morning, right? Thursday. Thursday. Thursday, I should know that.

Yeah, every Thursday morning, like I said. I'll fix that in post. But there is, in my calendar, we were talking about it before I press record. There are many recordings for season five. Is there any guest in season five you want to tease now? Like drop one name of somebody who will be your guest in season five? You don't have to. That's your show.

No. No. Okay. They're all equally amazing. amazing and spectacular. You love them all. Absolutely. You bet. Okay.

So stay tuned. Subscribe wherever you get your podcast. Wherever you get this podcast, you can find Life and Stages, and you can catch up on what you missed. And there will be episodes for season five. That will make the Life and Stages fans very, very happy. Now I'm going to thank some partners and give you some gifts. And then I'm going to set the table because it's going to be all Joel. It's going to be an interesting discussion, I think.

But I want to make sure you. know Joel Greenberg, that palm pasta sent a lasagna over. It's in my freezer right now, a delicious lasagna that you can take home with you. Oh. I pause for the excitement from you. It's like the price is right or something. So I'm letting you know a delicious pasta. They fed us at an event last Thursday, TMLX22.

Joe, why were you not at TMLX22 last Thursday? I don't know. You didn't know about it. Okay. You were busy. I was busy looking at the soccer results. That's not true. Although there were people who left my party for the tap room.

Okay. To watch the Netherlands play, actually. Okay. They had that game on. So we were at Great Lakes Brewery and Great Lakes Beer has sent over some delicious, fresh craft beer for you. Joel Greenberg. Oh, so beer, lasagna. Perfect.

Okay. I need more excitement from you. Yeah, no. That's great. That's great. Toronto Maple Leafs play at Christy Pitts. no ticket required. What a great, great value that is.

I mean, in this city, everything's so damn expensive. And you can go to the park and watch high caliber baseball, and it's so fun. And you can drink beer in that park and not worry about the fuzz getting you, man. So I'm giving you a book on the history of Toronto Maple Leafs Baseball. I urge everybody to check out a Leafs game or two this summer. Recyclemyelectronics.cageol. That's where you go if you have old electronics, old devices, old kids,

old cables, you don't throw that in the garbage because those chemicals end up in our landfill. You go to recycle my electronics.c.ca. Put in your postal coat and find out where you can drop it off to be properly recycled. Shout out to Nick Aienes. He's the host of Building Toronto Skyline and Mike and Nick.

And Nick himself will be my guest on Friday. I need to talk about, I finally need to get him on Toronto, Mike, to talk about this event that he hosted with, mayoral candidate Brad Bradford that's caused some some trouble, some trouble, trouble, so we're going to get into it. I'll see what he can say.

But we're going to get into that on Friday. Much love to Fusion Corps, Nick Aeney's. And last but not least, just yesterday, I was visited by Brad Jones at Ridley Funeral Home for a new episode of his podcast, Life's Undertaking. And we talked about his recent trip to Europe. And we talked about a conversation he had with Heather Rankin on Life's Undertaking.

It was quite something. He sent over, since you're a returning guest, you get this new one. Okay, so first time guests get the plastic green measuring tape. But this one, Joel Greenberg, okay, from Ridley Funeral Home, it's not just a measuring tape. There's a bottle opener in here. There's a flashlight. There's a level. This is like the Swiss Army knife of measuring tapes.

Wow. There you go. How does that make you feel? He's ecstatic, everybody. I am. I'm lost for words. Okay. He's speechless.

Okay, so here we go. Now, you reached out to me, Joel Greenberg. Correct me if I may get any of these details wrong. But I have this megaphone called Toronto Mike. And sometimes I get notes from people who would like to share my megaphone. Okay, this is a 14-year-old podcast, but it reached number eight. This is true. I have a screencap and everything.

Earlier this week, this podcast reached number eight on the Apple podcast charts for the category. Like, it's whatever it is, it's a megaphone. and you wanted to share it. So I'm actually going to sit back. I will ask you questions about things because I'm a curious cat. But I need you to talk to me because I think this is an important subject that you'd like to discuss. Take it away, Joel Greenberg. Well, I called you because I wanted to have a conversation about an issue where it seems impossible to have conversations with people.

I've tried. And it's really about what I have felt and seen and heard and read in Toronto, particularly, I guess particular, I don't know, well, I know the theater community. So that's my reference point. But I think it goes, I know that it goes well way past that. You know, since starting life and stages, prior to that, I really never did anything with Facebook. And I knew that Instagram was a word. I honestly had never looked at it, but since I started the podcast two years ago, I use both because that's how I promote the episodes.

And so I've been reading. There are certain people who I read a lot. And the amount of, oh, God, the amount of shouting and awful language about Jews and that all Jews, I mean, my, my, The issue is the way in which the conflation of words that Israel and Jews means the same thing, which essentially is defined by people who have been very successful at this, marketing this propaganda, that all of us feel the same way. We all respond to the same way. We all are...

All of us? You mean Jewish people? Yes. are indifferent to everything that's happened in Gaza. We are indifferent. I said, it's just bullshit. It is absolutely not true. But it goes very, very deep.

And, you know, my particular, and this is, I mean, it's been years now, and certainly exacerbated by October 7th. And, you know, when I've tried having this conversation with people who I know, who, you know, who I think would be willing to talk, it's turned into this, it's something that is entirely binary. And I think that's, I think there's a real irony in the fact that the, the, the term non-binary has become so much a part of our culture, that in a world where we have to accept non-binary, except when it comes to politics. so you are either there or you are there.

And typically by the time, you know, when you open your mouth or you're asked about something, like where, by the first thing you say, you are defined, you define what your political position is, which is insanity. But it goes much, I mean, so that's bad, that's quite bad enough. And, but what really, really gets me, and why I called you to ask to have this. opportunity to talk. That well certainly before October 7th,

but certainly, but especially since then, there is this manifesto. And I'm going to read the title of the group, so I don't get it wrong. It is the Palestinian campaign for the academic and cultural boycott of Israel. And, um, PACB is what the acronym is.

So it's P-A-C-B-I. Anybody who has time to waste, you can look it up. I did. And I did because it was brought to my attention when I was told that 18 theater companies in the country, nine of which are located in Toronto, had signed this manifesto. They're guidelines, but it is a manifesto, and it's, you know, insisting that all Israeli artists, actors, writers, academics are boycotted.

They are not to be allowed into our country, and there have been many, many people who have been canceled, people who were invited to give keynote addresses, artists who are going to have exhibits. authors who are going to speak about books, all cancelled. Now, the fact is, in a couple of cases, the backlash was so strong that those, you know, the bans were revoked. But by the time that's done, there is so much, there is so much damage and so much personal damage. And, you know, so the conversation I tried to have was to ask, what value is there?

Help me understand why you have this blanket boycott. You know, most... There are many examples of artists, educators, journalists, politicians who are voices of dissent in different countries.

And to bring it to theater, I mean, the example that I used first, and it's really reinforced by looking at this document because they make reference to using the model of South Africa. I said, well, you know, during apartheid, the South African playwright Athelfugard wrote plays that were certainly not to the, you know, they did not delight the South African government, and he was an international voice, and he was an international figure because he spoke out.

And he was produced widely. Wadslov Havel in Czechoslovakia. I mean, there are Sozhenitsyn in Russia. Many, many writer. At a time like this, and if we look at the United States, it's the voices of dissent that become so important. And especially the arts.

I mean, that is where the power, historically, that is where it happens. And that's one of the few resources. And when the arts are censored and there is this sort of blanket boycott, I don't understand, you know, in reading a little bit about this and reading from this manifesto, I mean, there are a couple of phrases, the sentences that I think, you know, I want to quote. I don't want to paraphrase because that...

No, you read from your notes. And I'm holding fire. So I have... I'm taking notes and then I'll have some questions. Excellent. This mic is open for you, Joel Greenberg. Okay. So I'm now reading from this manifesto.

So it talks about the fact that this PACB, the campaign for the academic and cultural boycott of Israel, was initiated in 2000. And I wasn't when I, I wasn't aware. I mean, I knew there was BDS, and I didn't realize there was this sort of the separate attendant piece until I read about the theater companies that had signed this boycott. But here it says that it advocates for a boycott of Israeli academic and cultural institutions for their deep and persistent complicity in Israel's denial of Palestinian rights stipulated in international law.

Now, if there are any academics or artists who are doing that, sure. But this is all blanket language. And anybody who has actually taken the time to find who the voices of dissent in Israel are, there are many to choose from. Journalists, politicians, artists in particular, authors, actors, dance, music, voices of protest, and anybody who's taken even five minutes to look at what is happening in the country itself, the opposition by thousands and thousands of people who rally against the Netanyahu government, and against their policies

and against the criminal behavior of the settlers in the West Bank. I mean, it's... By silencing, by boycotting this, as I understand it, all you are doing is reinforcing the sense that all the Jews are the same, and they all want the same thing, and they are all heartless, and they have no...

It's just madness. And it is, I mean, madness is a fair word to use for the Middle East, certainly as it is, and as it has often been. And what is to be gained by silencing, I can only assume that part of the motivation for silencing is to not allow yourself to be made aware of what people are really like. if you speak to, read, listen to the people who are aggressively and violently opposed to everything that Israel currently represents in its government. You know, it's part of that, you know, when you speak to people as individuals and you don't talk about the Jews or the Arabs or the Palestinians, as though they are an amorphous, you know, this group. Like a blob. A blob. A blob, yeah.

Like-minded blob. Yeah. And, and I, you know, I've, I've been in situations that have been so, like, so deeply upsetting because of what seems, what seems to me, such, you know, such, well, such ignorance and such easy, easy way of labeling something. So I remember asking a couple of people not that long ago, I said, you know, the words Zionist and anti-Zionists are thrown around as though they mean something. I said, so I'm just curious speaking to an individual and saying, so you, you've just used those words. So tell me what you mean. What is a Zionist? What is an anti-Zionist? And the fact is that there

was no, there was no, there was no substantive answer. It was an easy label. It's like, you know, coming from either reading headlines or watching, you know, a YouTube clip or something, you know, we're in a world where you can find, if you're looking for ammunition, you can find whatever you want to find, you can find something that serves you, that reinforces what you believe. and it's a lot of work to allow yourself into something that is perhaps doesn't have to be wildly opposed to what you think, but to listen to how other, to just hear somebody else's perspective.

And it's not about trying to convince anybody that they're wrong. It's just about the opportunity for people to actually think and talk and share some way of being able to see the world. And Toronto, you know, Toronto is Toronto is not the Middle East. And people in Toronto live lives, you know, there is a reason why when there are, when incidents of anti-Semitism and vandalism

and the shootings at schools, when schools are closed, but using violence to make your point, when those incidents have multiplied exponentially, it means something. And when the incidents of anti-Semitic acts are recorded and they outnumber by far any other group, and the Jewish population is small. So it is an...

It's... Yeah, it is alarming. And the fact that... Now, this, you know, I may have... I may very well have missed this. So if I'm blanketing something or I'm, you know, I'm using...

I'm being critical of somebody and I'm wrong, I need you or something. somebody listening who wants to tell me that I'm wrong. Right. So, you know, you look to, you look to leaders in different communities, right? You, and when, you know, short of those easy, easy phrases like people should not, you know, everybody should have the right to worship as they wish. Nobody should be, nobody should feel unsafe, you know, going to school or going to a church.

or a synagogue or a mosque. That's all true. But when that's the most that, say, a politician can say, I don't know what they can do, because that isn't my world. But I am so aware that the leaders in our city and the mayor in particular. Olivia Chow. Oh, Jesus.

I mean, you know, I forget. I think it was a, I don't know, was a memorial or an event to honor the victims of October 7th when she didn't attend and she said she hadn't received the email. Like really, this is... Willful ignorance is what we call that. That's correct. And it's said, you know what? Just you'd be better off to say what you really think because nothing is as stupid as saying, I didn't get the email.

Like, really, you didn't get the email. Okay. And I was reading something this morning, actually, about, this is national, about leaders of industry who were acknowledging the increase in anti-Semitism, the increase in Islamophobia. And the names of the people who were signed onto this and sort of acknowledged it, represented industry and government. And I sent a note, it was a Facebook post.

And I said, I guess Olivia Chow didn't get the email asking her to join the rest of the people. And said, so that, so there we are, so that's the city of Toronto, right? And in the theater community, apart from the news, nine companies that have signed this statement because, oh, I'm going to get some, let me get something else here. It's another, another quote. Sure, I'm just taking more notes here, Joel. Sure, sure.

Maybe I'll find out. And while you're doing that, I'll tell everybody because, so Joel's not on the show because he's a friend and a client. I will say this. If I get an email from somebody who wants to share something like this and have a conversation about it, I will always say yes. I'll just point this out that this is not me because I believe in something and I wanted to shine a line with something.

This is because I believe that Joel Greenberg has something he needs to share and I want to give him a chance to share it. And then we will have a conversation about it. But it's not because Joel is a client or a friend. I just want to make sure that is out there. I'm open to all reasonable and sensible discussions of this nature. Okay. I don't think I can find...

Just give me a moment. Yeah, take your time. Because I... Because it was somebody speaking for the theater community. And... Take your time. Hurry up. The choice is yours.

Don't be late. You do that. I will happily tell people that I'm taking tomorrow off, which is Canada Day. I actually cleared my calendar for Wednesday. No recordings tomorrow, but Toronto Mike is back on. Thursday with Ed Keenan of the Toronto Star. He's got a quarterly appearance the first Thursday of every month. Sorry, the first Thursday of every quarter at 2 p.m.

Ed Keenan, and we'll talk about everything going on because you mentioned Olivia Chow. I'm going to ask you questions later about Olivia, but there's a mayoral race going on, and it looks like right now it's Olivia Chow versus Brad Bradford. you know, it's not too late for others to enter the race. That deadline, I can't remember. It's late August or something. I can't remember. But we haven't hit that deadline yet.

But right now it looks like Olivia Chow versus Brad Bradford. So that will be on the agenda. Much to discuss with Ed Keenan. And then this is interesting. The name's Susie McNeil. If people don't know that, she's a singer. And she came to prominence because she was, that rock star in excess,

there was a big reality show to replace the legend, the late great Michael Hutchins, to get a new lead singer for In Excess, the great Aussie rock band that I actually personally adore. And I played the cassette kick. The album was called Kick. I played it so just over and over again until I just ruined that tape.

I loved In Excess as Kick. So many radio singles and I loved the sound of the band. Anyway, Susie McNeil became a known person for her. participation in Rockstar in excess. And she's going to be in the basement on Friday. So I'll do a chat with Nick Aini's and then Susie McNeil at 11 a.m. On Friday. How's it going over there, Joel?

You know, I don't edit Toronto Mike. Yeah, no, that's good. This is called vamping. Yeah, no, that's fine. Yeah, I just wanted to read, this isn't what I was looking for, but it speaks to this, certainly. Okay. So talks about freedom of expression. This is also from this document, from the manifesto.

So here is what it says. This organization rejects censorship and upholds the universal right to freedom of expression. The institutional boycott called for by Palestinian civil society does not conflict with such freedom. PACB subscribes to the internationally accepted definition of freedom of expression. Okay. So they reject on principle, I'm quoting again, boycotts of individuals based on the identity, such as citizenship, race, gender, or religion, or opinion, mere affiliation of Israeli cultural workers to an Israeli cultural individual,

institution is therefore not grounds for applying the boycott. If, however, an individual is representing the state of Israel or a complicit Israeli institution, or is commissioned, recruited to participate in Israel's efforts to rebrand itself, I don't know what that means, but somebody obviously does, then her, his activities are subject to the institutional boycott. The BDS movement is calling for. So it strikes me that the hypocrisy of this is seems really fairly transparent because it advocates here, as I may have said this earlier, it advocates for a boycott of Israeli academic and cultural institutions for their deep and persistent complicity in Israel's denial of Palestinian rights. without looking at any particular company, any individual,

so it is looking at as though every company, every artistic endeavor is the same. All of them fueled by the same hate and the same violence. And this document is written as though that means something. And the theater companies that have chosen to sign on this, that claim that by doing this, they are in no way anti-Semitic, I mean, it is just, it's bullshit. And, you know, it just is.

So, you tell me when I can. Go ahead. So I have some questions. And I'm glad you're doing this on Toronto, Mike, because I feel like possibly the listenership for life and stages are people who care about the theater industry, or at least know about it or are absorbing more, where this is, you're going to have some people listening

who obviously are passionate about our theater industry, but you're going to have a whack of people listening who are outsiders and maybe aren't like Lauren Honickman, who's a big super fan of the theater industry here. So when you say theater companies in this country have signed on to that manifesto that you've been quoting from, you drop some numbers, right? You said, I think you said 22?

18. 18. And 11 in Toronto or something? 18 in the country, 9 in Toronto. Okay. And can you just give me a... I'm just curious. Like, what is that like a percentage of the whole?

Like, I don't even have a sense. Like, when you say nine theater companies, for all I know, we have, you know, we have 10,000 theater companies in Toronto. I don't know the percentage. There are a lot of theater companies. And of these nine, two or three are essential members of the community,

the others to be, you know, to not... They're bigger. Yeah, to not be unfair. Others are much smaller, much less well known to the public because they don't have, they don't have much of a public profile. But there's a few biggies in there, you see?

Yeah, yeah. Bodies in Bad Times Theater and the Theater Center are the two... Oh, I know these names. Yeah. I know Bodies in Bad Times Theater. They're the two major theaters. And, you know, I believe it was Bodies

when they sent out their press release announcing that this was going to happen, that these companies were endorsing this boycott. They said that they felt that they're, and I really am paraphrasing, and I don't have it in front of me, but essentially they felt they had to do something. They had to acknowledge. So this is better than doing nothing. Signing on to this manifesto that you've been quoting from. Yeah.

To paraphrase. And at the same time, you know, one of those companies has said, you know, when asked is that, oh no, we don't, you know, we're not, we're not anti-Semitic. We, you know, we, we, we don't want Jews to stay away from us. I said, well, you know, that may be, but you have a pretty rough, you know, good luck marketing that when you have boldly and aggressively said that you, you are boycotting all Israeli artists, academics, because all of them are. complicit. Right. That, that, that to me is very significant detail. That it's a blanket ban.

Yeah. So is it essentially all citizens of Israel are banned? That's, regardless of their thoughts, opinions, and, uh, perspective regarding, uh, global affairs. Yeah. And that's what this says. I mean, that's certainly what this document says. Um, I know that there are academics. I know there's a, you know, everything related to Israel and Palestine and the Middle East has always been fraught. It has never not been a hotspot. And certainly in the last 30 years, I guess, 40 years, since the first Intifada, so the late 80s on, it's been, it's just been nonstop. And with Netanyahu, in government, and even when he was out of government, he was still very present. But Netanyahu has been where he is essentially since the mid-90s.

So for 30, for at least 30 years, he has become the face and the voice of Israel, which does nothing to help Israel. and he's as much a thug and a crook as Trump and a whole cadre of... Would you put Putin in that club? Sure. I mean, these are the get-rich quick, the get-rich scheme. And just before the October 7th, in Israel,

there was a huge backlash against him because he was trying to... to, he called it, reforming their court and their Supreme Court. And people would not, they just wouldn't have it. Israel has an election, presumably, in October. And some speculation about why Netanyahu has continued doing what he's doing is that he's been found guilty of fraud, of theft, of bribery. I think the bribery charge was actually dropped finally,

but he's certain that he will be found guilty. And as long as the country's at war, and he hasn't been able to reform the Supreme Court, he's either dancing for his life, but he has managed to survive for a very long time in spite of the fact that he's just, he's vile. And the coalitions that he has had to work with. I mean, the politics of Israel are nuts because it is a small country, small population,

with so many political parties. I mean, there is no party is ever in the majority. There is no majority party. It's not possible. It's always a coalition. And he has this coalition of the severe right-wing zealots. it's just now on this very podcast

Joel I've had lengthy discussions with my friend Ralph Ben Mergi on this very subject because of you mentioned this off the top there's a conflation of Israel and Jewish people like yourself right

Montreal people like Joel Greenberg and this conflation and I think that's where you know when you do this blanket ban this is me speaking my in here. This blanket ban of all Israeli artists it seems like because you disagree

with Netanyahu policies, which Ralph Ben-Margie does, you just did right now, and you may disagree with the actions of the nation that is Israel and their leader Benjamin Netanyahu and the

conflate that this conflation of Israel with people in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, like Joel Greenberg here. That's where this blanket ban becomes so offensive to me. And I am curious, some questions from your esteemed host here. Are there similar bands, for example, of artists from Russia?

There was at the beginning, when, yeah, when Russia invaded Ukraine, there was. And there were artists who were not permitted, where contracts were broken. I don't know, I mean, I really don't know the status of that now. I don't know to what extent that was. I mean, I'll give you an example of part of this, of people, of incidents in Canada. There, I will. Read from his, I will. I will just so I get the names right.

So here are three examples. a woman named Muriel Lipke. Jewish Israeli. She was a cyclist. And she was to be giving, and she's also a motivational speaker. She had been hired to do the keynote address in Peterborough,

International Women's Day. And because of, you know, as an Israeli, she did mandatory army service, as every Israeli does from the age of 18, two years of mandatory service. She was not long, I mean, she was quite a bit older. But the information that she had at some point served in the Israeli army became this ground swell of protest.

And that's mandatory. Yeah, right. Yeah, anybody who, anybody who, except for the internal issue, except for the religious, anybody who is religious is spared having to. Oh, like that, get Orthodox. Orthodox, that's it. Okay. The Orthodox are not required to serve.

And that's become its own big issue in the country. But she and, and I think I got the name wrong. That was, Leah Goldstein was the cyclist, and Miriam Litton is a writer. And she had been invited to the Victoria Comic Arts Festival. She's a graphic novelist, and she was to be part of that festival, and she was another person who it was discovered, as though it was never a secret, but it was revealed that she had also done Army service. So she was canceled.

and there was such a backlash with both of those that in the case of Miriam, the author, they reversed their decision. In the case of the cyclist, they just canceled the whole event. And there was also, there was a play. There is a play by Christopher Morris called The Runner. And it's been done, you know,

it wasn't its first production at all. but it was to be produced at the Belfry Theatre in Victoria, and there was so much pro-Palestinian protesting that the production was cancelled. And I don't envy at all. Anybody who is on the receiving end of that kind of pressure, how you make a decision, because almost certainly whatever decision you make is going to be the wrong decision.

Somebody is going to point out that you know, you failed, you failed that. And it's happening, it is happening right now with the museum of, is it civil rights, a human rights, the human rights museum, because there is to be, and I've just, that's in, like this is now daily news. There is to be an exhibit about the Nakpa, about the persecution of Palestinians and the emigration of Palestinians in 1948. And they're

bringing it, and I haven't seen the exhibit, but the exhibit apparently also talks about what's happening right now.

And one of the members of the board of that museum resigned because he said, I don't have a problem with,

you know, representing that history. He said, however, at the same time, in 1948, at the same

time that hundreds of thousands of Palestinians were you know, looking elsewhere, even more Jews were being expelled from Arab countries at exactly the same time. So he said, it is incumbent upon a museum that talks about human rights to tell the whole story. And the fact that you're doing, you're representing one people

and completely ignoring the reality of what that world was is, it's indefensible. So he resigned, and I've read a, I mean, there have been a couple of extremely well-written arguments to the point, and I don't envy, God knows, I don't envy the people at the museum who are going to deal with this. They won't, I don't think anything will change, but that's an immediate example of what is happening. That's happening now. Right now. Right now. Okay, so to bring it back to the, it's kind of a pointed question for you, Joel,

but do you think Canada's theater industry is anti-Semitic? No, I'm not, no, but no, I don't think an industry, first of all, there isn't, I mean, the industry in Canada is really provincial. I mean, it's so regional. Right. And, you know, in, in, I can talk about Toronto. Let me rephrase it. Do you think Toronto's theater industry is anti-Semitic? No, no, I think there are people.

I think there are, I think there are members of the community. They walk amongst us. They do. The thing that, you know, what I, I find, I don't know what the response could be. I find it very telling that, you know, these companies believe, you know, the companies that signed onto this manifesto believe what they're signing on to. They don't really want to talk about it because when I've seen, I mean, certain events,

talk about the Dora's, you know, I wasn't, I saw, I was talking to an actor about this, actually, and he asked me if last year, not this, he said, did you go to the Dora's last year? I said, no, I haven't gone to the Duras since I won. So it's been a very, very, very long time. I said, I don't, no, I don't do that. He said, well, it's a good thing you weren't there. I said, why is that? He said, because there was all kinds of demonstrating about free Palestine from the river to the sea.

I said, at the Doras. He said, yeah. I said, okay, well, so the fact that I haven't heard anybody from the Toronto representing the Toronto theater community, And when I say that, I mean from any of the major companies, actually saying anything, acknowledging what's going, like no acknowledgement at all, none. And I don't know what that acknowledgement could be, but there should certainly be something said

when actors have told me that they know that they're not, some feel they're not getting work because they're Jewish. They're not Israeli, but they're Jewish. And that's become one and the same thing. Okay, let me pull that thread for a moment here because these theater companies that have signed on that manifesto, as you call it, eight in Toronto? I should remember this. Yeah, nine. Nine.

Okay, nine. I'm not speaking German there, nine. But the Israeli artists are banished or boycott it or whatever. No Israeli artists. Do you feel there is a spillover effect where maybe some non-Israeli citizens who are, Jewish are also not being, I don't know what the term would be, but hired. I don't know. But I know from speaking to a number of Jewish artists who feel that they are, you know, they feel like they've been turned into pariahs, even though they are not, you know, they're not screaming at the gates.

they're not protesting. They're just trying to be. And this is since October 7th, that this has been accelerated. Completely accelerated. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I had on, actually, I was going to bring up my recent conversation with Warren Kinsella, but I'll say that because I'm going to close with a little Toronto municipal talk as we get ready for Ed Keenan in a couple of days here. But I did find from the Anti-Defamation League, I do have the definition of Zionism.

You want to hear it? So Anti-Defamation League says Zionism is the movement for the self-determination and statehood for the Jewish people in their ancestral homeland, the land of Israel. That's what Zionism is. So it sounds, if I'm reading this correctly, if you're a Zionist, you believe Israel is the ancestral homeland for Jewish people. Yeah. And there are, okay. There are Jewish voices and some Israeli Jewish voices as well that believe that a state, you know, that creating a state of Israel that deals, that becomes nationalist in its, you know, in its thinking is not healthy. So it's not, you know, again, you know, there are, there are, there are people who, no, and there are people who disagree with what the, you know, what, what the kind, that there should be, some people who never.

felt there should be a country, but everything changed after the Second World War. And, you know, however things happen, you know, the ways in which history, the way Britain particularly decided to, you know, carve up what was Palestine, saying there will be one state, There will be a Jewish state. There will be a Palestinian state, and that wasn't acceptable. Of course, there was war immediately. And just one of many, many, many, many wars since 48. I don't know.

But you have pre-social. Firstly, I'm glad that you came over and that we're having this conversation. So I'm glad that we're doing this. And I hope people listen, an open mind and open heart. Yeah. And if anybody says, hey, I want to use that megaphone, just write me at micotronomike.com and tell me what you want to say on my megaphone,

and we will probably possibly do that. Okay. But do you appreciate, and I think you do, just having private conversations with you, but do you appreciate the anger at Israel for their treatment of civilians in Gaza? Of course.

Yeah. I mean, it's madness. Yes. And I, you know, you can certainly, you can certainly find people who think that that's exactly what should have happened. But you're going to find, you're going to find an awful lot of people who were as appalled by what, by the way in which Israel just kept destroying,

And the argument, I don't, you know, the reality of Hamas and Hezbollah as these Iranian proxy, you know, it's so, I mean, it's impossible, it's impossibly complicated. You know, just looking at what's with Trump and Iran, with Iran, that it's so interesting. It's so interesting that when the most recent war happened, it was sort of the United States and Israel together attacking. Right. Then when they decided, whenever they decided to start talking, it was the United States and Iran with Pakistan mediating. Israel was not, you know, was uninvited or disinvited from the,

the activity. I said, so, you know, Nahu, I don't know how, I don't know what it is that drives people, of course. Anybody who deals with Trump seems to end up in, they all seem to end up in the same place. Like they're just sort of dumped, you know, when they're no longer useful. But that, like, the message that that sends a country and the backlash against Israel in the states now is, It's huge. And, you know, for people who are really smart, it's astounding how stupid some of the decisions have been. But I say that knowing, I mean, I have no idea how decisions like this get made or not being able to see to look ahead enough.

It's We're not going to solve it in this channel, are we? Well, it's not going to be, I don't think it's solvable. I don't know what. The only thing I can hope for is that Netanyahu will be voted out and that whoever is voted in will be sufficiently centrist to begin a long, long repair. And I don't know that any party in Israel has ever been there

long enough to actually repair anything. In the meantime, some obvious truths that I will share as I've been listening and absorbing here, but some obvious troops, which is that Israelis, that's not all the Jewish, diaspora, am I pronouncing that right now?

Diaspora, I have a lot of Jewish friends. That sounds like I'm Doug Ford telling you. I have a lot of, my lawyers Jewish, my dog is Jewish. Well, his wife is Jewish, actually. But okay, so I would say that equating Israel with all Jewish people is wrong and crazy to me and suggesting that all Jewish people or all Israeli people share the exact same opinion

of the actions of Netanyahu. To me, that's ludicrous, and that's insane. And I think that this hearing you tell me about this, I can't remember the accurate, him anymore, but the Pack B in this blanket ban of all Israeli artists regardless of their stance

on what's happening in Gaza or in Israel or what Netanyahu was up to. I think that sounds wrong to me and these artists with dissenting voices should be amplified if nothing else at this time. Like don't ban them because of their passport here.

Jeez. And it's, you know, many a Jewish friend of mine is very angry at Netanyahu's actions and their treatment of civilians in Gaza. But do you mind Joel Greenberg if we close with Olivia Chow? Is that okay here? Sure. Okay. Because I have other Jewish friends who have told me, blanketly, they've told me Olivia Chow is anti-Semitic.

Okay. And you point out the fact that she didn't attend, I don't know if there's multiple examples, but she didn't attend this particular event to remember, to remember, to remember, October 7th and the many victims that she didn't attend because she basically didn't know it was happening or wasn't invited. She didn't get the email.

She didn't get the email here. Okay. Now, Warren Kinsella, he was here, I guess that was a couple of months ago. Now, I've lost track of time, but it was in 2026. And he made his Toronto mic debut,

and he wrote a book about the rise of anti-Semitism in this country. And yesterday, this happened yesterday. So there was a pride parade on Sunday. which I would have attended, but I was actually watching Canada versus Switzerland,

and nothing was going to pry me away from that television. All right. So they're at the Pride parade. I guess Olivia Chow, somebody was taking video with her, and she made a remark, she said, Free Palestine. Those were the two words she said. And Warren Kinsella shared the video

and as an example of Olivia Chow's anti-Semitism. So I have a couple of questions here, but take it away from Olivia. is the opinion expressed free Palestine? Do you, Joel Greenberg, feel that is an anti-Semitic remark? You know, I guess it's, I mean, in part it's context. I happen to see that clip. And it was at the Pride Parade.

I don't know the woman she was with. I mean, there were two women looking into the camera. and something of a great pride parade and free Palestine and she was delighted. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She was passionate with that way. And I said, that is, I found that chilling. I mean, I don't know what else she might have said.

And I guess the combination of having heard so much chanting of, you know, free Palestine from the river to the sea, I think if Palestine, it needs an explanation, I guess. I need to understand when somebody says. You have follow-up questions for Olivia Chow based on those remarks. But those independent, those remarks, you can be an ally. Sure. Of Jewish people around the world and feel Palestine should be free.

Sure. Like those are not mutually exclusive opinions. They're not. They're not. And they become exclusive. they become exclusive if what Free Palestine means is

free Palestine from the river to the sea so that Israel you obliterate Israel give us back what is ours and so you when you hear Free Palestine you hear the other part of that

mantra or those that it's the context I you know I could have done without seeing Olivia Chouse, you know, laughing and delighting and saying free Palestine, I'm tired of hearing it. And the context of it is that

it's been, you know, it's been three plus years, it's been three years since, certainly since October 7th, when that has become the chant and business on campuses. And I live in... My daughter just graduated from McGill.

Okay. We were worried at the complication. There might be, uh, Oh yeah. No, Montreal is, Montreal makes Toronto look tame. But, but, you know, I live in downtown Toronto. So I'm quite, I'm quite accustomed now to having to walk through people handing me. And I don't mind handouts. I said, but when it becomes a kind of bludgeoning and, you know, there was some, there was a very small, like maybe half a dozen people in front of the Israeli, consulate on Blue Street and I wasn't there.

My wife was. She was coming out of the building from some, like she wasn't at the embassy or the consulate, but it's in the same building. She said there were these kids holding placards

and she said, she spoke to one of them and just said, I'm really curious, what are you, you know, what is it? It was clear to her. They absolutely had no idea. They could speak in headlines.

Right. Just like the people were talking about, you know, Zionists without understanding what that term essentially means. Like, it doesn't hold up upon follow-up questions. There will be no follow-up questions as I spout this rhetoric.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, and that's why I'm so glad that we were able to do this because it's not a headline. A headline's not going to be sufficient. There needs to be a conversation, a dialogue, and follow-up questions. And I hope younger people

who are reciting these terms that maybe they hear it on campus or they whatever, these headlines, as you called it, that they take the time, I really hope they're doing this, I fear they're not, of course, but take the time to understand what that means exactly,

like drill in, dive deep. This world is so into short soundbites for social media, these platitudes, these remarks. Free Palestine. Okay, let's talk about what does that mean? Because I am telling you, I believe you can believe in free Palestine,

And not have a titch of anti-Semitism in your body. But you need to explore further to discover whether that is true or not. Yep. Thank you, Mike. So Olivia Chowen, your humble opinion is possibly anti-Semitic. I didn't say that. No, I said that. I want to hear what you saying.

I don't know. I just think she is in the wrong job. I think her time. I do hope that there is a. really strong candidate. Well, that's, there's only one. I know. Well, so, and I know Warren Cancela is part of that Brad Bradford's campaign.

I see. So he's got an inherent bias regardless of his thoughts. But Brad Bradford, if you don't want Olivia Chow as mayor, you're at this point, as we speak on June 30th, 2026, you're going to have to park your vote with Bradford. Yeah. Okay, I might have to get you back on the eve of the election to find out what's going on in that brainy or Joel, but I'm going to see a lot of you between now and the election because you're going to be here. How many episodes do you think

you're going to do in this season 5? 19 or 20. We'll be together. I know we do two in a day often, but there's going to be many, many days I sit in the seat and look at your handsome face there. So season 5 of life and stages is happening and season 4

is rolling out now. And thank you for this thought-provoking conversation. And I did not know about these nine theater companies in Toronto that had signed on to this manifesto that you read from. And I didn't know buddies in Bad Time Theater were one of them, and I feel educated here. Thank you. Thank you for the conversation. Thanks for having me.

And that brings us to the end of our 1,925th show. Go to Toronto Mike.com for all your Toronto mic needs. and much love to all who made this possible. And that is, again, that is Great Lakes Brewery. They were great hosts last Thursday for TMLX-22. Palma Pasta, they fed us all. I didn't get a meatball. I'm still ticked about it.

I told this to Blair Packham. But everybody filled their bellies and loved it. Thank you, Palmapasta. Toronto Maple Leafs Baseball. Christy Pitts. No ticket required. Enjoy some great baseball, including Yassie L. Pueg. Nick Aini's, I'm going to chat with him Friday on Toronto Mike.

Find out what happened with that Brad Bradford event. Follow the money. Recyclemyelectronics.ca. And of course, Ridley Funeral Home, fresh episode recorded yesterday. Life, I almost called it Life in Stages. But that's Joel Greenberg's. This is Life's Undertaking. You know, Larry Fedorik has a podcast called Later That Same Life,

which means I produce three shows with the word life in the title. It's a good thing I don't get confused. See you all Tuesday. No, that's Canada Day. Happy Canada Day, everybody. See you all. Thursday with Ed Keenan.