Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - John Borra: Toronto Mike'd #978

Episode Date: January 4, 2022

Mike chats with singer/songwriter John Borra about playing The Turning Point as a teen, his years in the legendary post-punk band A Neon Rome, playing with Ian Blurton in Change of Heart, Handsome Ned, and his new solo album Blue Wine. Then, John plays live in the TMDS Studio.

Welcome to episode 978 of Toronto Mic'd. Proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, a fiercely independent craft brewery who believes in supporting communities, good times, and brewing amazing beer. Order online for free local home delivery in the GTA. The Yes We Are Open podcast, a Moneris podcast production, telling the stories of Canadian small businesses and their perseverance in the face of overwhelming adversity. Subscribe at YesWeAreOpenPodcast.com.

StickerU.com. Create custom stickers, labels, tattoos, and decals for your home and your business. Palma Pasta. Enjoy the taste of fresh homemade Italian pasta and entrees from Palma Pasta in Mississauga and Oakville. And Ridley Funeral Home. Pillars of the community since 1921. I'm Mike from torontomike.com. And joining me this week is veteran Toronto singer-songwriter

John Borah. Welcome, John. Hello, Mike. How are you holding up? Firstly, Happy New Year. Happy New Year to you. Yes. You're the first in-person guest of the year

and I'm just happy to see you. I will tell you off the top, I'm triple vaxxed. I have no symptoms. I've been very careful if that makes you feel more comfortable. I'm the same. Okay, good. And honestly, I've been really looking forward to meeting you and doing this. And I had that fear earlier this week that maybe we'd be moving this to Zoom. And here you are. It's just

what a pleasure to have you here. Well, it's nice to be amongst people. How are you holding up, man? Because, you know, they're shutting down schools for another few weeks, which affects three of my four kids. And it just, you know, the Omicron variant is contagious as all hell, as they say. I'm just wondering, how are you holding up? I'm doing fine. I can't complain, really. I can't complain. Just found out today that it looks like I'm qualified for the newest government assistance. So it looks like, you know, that, yeah.

Well, I mean, really, for a self-employed person like myself, that made all the difference last time. Could you be more specific? This is a federal initiative. This like what exactly well it started out it was called the CERB C-E-R-B Canadian Emergency or sorry COVID Emergency Relief uh benefit and then they moved it to the C-R-B they rolled it into the unemployment insurance program. Excuse me. And yeah, neither of which those things, you know, being a self-employed person, I don't tend to be qualified for these type of programs.

So that was a real lifesaver for myself and lots of other people in my position the last time around. And most recently, it looks like we are now eligible for what they call the Canadian Work COVID, I don't know, Canadian Workers Support Benefit, something like that. Alphabet soup.

Yes, yes. But I'm glad to hear it because I mean, you, my friend, are an artist and we're going to walk through your career and it's all very impressive and I can't wait to hear these stories. But well, I think you artists suffer the most during this kind of a pandemic.

I mean, you can't play anywhere. You're kind of cut off at the knees. Like, what have you been doing the past two years? You know, I've been working some new songs. I made some videos and stuff like that. It's not that terrible. I spent a part of my life anyway in a solitary situation, working on music,

you know, the other half. Obviously, I spend a lot of my life out in bars and in public working that way, but usually when I'm not working, I'm, you know, being pretty solitary. Sorry, go ahead. Well, I was saying at the beginning, I feel like I've been training

for this my whole life, right? Right. I have reasonable rent. I know how to cook for myself. I cut my own hair. Hey, but that reasonable rent, like I'll have on guys. I don't know.

You name it. I'll have on like a Dave Bedini or something. Or, you know, no, Kim Mitchell's a good example. He's talking to me about like Max Webster. They're living in a house in the East end of the city and they have to pay 400 bucks for the house

and they all chip in and they make the 400 buck rent or whatever and they can be starving artists. Have you ever had that moment where you're like, I got to leave this city. Like I can't afford to be like an aging punker in this city of millionaires. Like have you ever had that moment you had to flee?

No, but if I lose this apartment that I'm living in, then I definitely will be facing that. Maybe Kim Mitchell will put you up. Well, unfortunately with the, yeah, the way the rents have been going for the last few years in Toronto, there's a lot of people like me that I, you know, I've been saying for a few years, you know, we're one eviction away from not being able to live in the same

neighborhood, nevermind possibly the same city. And then it used to be like, okay, we'll, we'll go to Hamilton. This is what I'd hear. But now I'm hearing you can't afford Hamilton anymore. Like it's just that that's also gone nuts in terms of how much it costs to live in the city.

So I hope you never get evicted from this apartment. My magical apartment. Now, having said that, I think one thing that COVID has been good for is that it seems to have tempered those rents a lot you know um i know a

guy who's a landlord he told me that um he's been having trouble finding people you know it's a sort of a renter's market these days which is you know if you told anyone of us that a couple years ago we wouldn't have believed you okay well then uh long may omicron run this sounds like uh john's benefiting here uh you know dude i just a couple of weeks maybe three weeks i can't remember now everything's a blur but sometime in december i had rob pruse on and rob uh you know was telling me about how he joined the spoons as their keyboardist when he was 15 years old like he was like a teenager in the spoons and they're playing these clubs you can't even like legally drink at and it was quite something but you my friend like you were a teenager in the spoons and they're playing these clubs. You can't even like legally drink at it. It was quite something.

But you, my friend, like you were a teenager when you start playing gigs. How old were you when you, you know, played your first, I don't know, your first gig? Well, yeah, the first bar that I played was the Turning Point. It was a punk rock bar in Toronto on Bloor Street. And I was either, I always say 16, but I might have actually been 15. It was either just before or just after my 16th birthday. Wow. I was still in high school, grade 10.

So how does that come to be? Like, how does a 15-year-old end up playing at the turning point? Well, the band that I was in, we opened up for another band. I grew up in Mississauga, the suburb of Toronto. And another band we knew from the area had the gig and asked us to play with them. So I don't know how they got the gig.

Do you remember the name of the band? That I was in? Well, both actually. The band you were in. The band I was in was called Blind Impulse. Woo! And the band that we opened for was called The Ignorance.

The Ignorance. What, what part of Mississauga were you, were you raised in there? Clarkson, Lorne Park area. You know, those are nice homes, my friend. Yeah, it's all right. Doing all right there.

There was like a street. So we did a road trip to Lorne Park, some street. I want to get the name of it. Crescent Road or something like that. Where like, there were mansions, okay? So the street of mansions all got together and put on like this most most elaborate Christmas light show. This was like, for the kids, it blew their mind

because it was basically, they were trying to raise, I guess they were trying to get donations to a food bank. It was all for a good cause. But you take this trip down Crescent Road and it was unbelievable, the light show and all the Christmas stuff that was going on there. So shout out to Lorne Park. That was not quite my memories.

A little more middle class than that, but you know. Tell me like what you can about the turning point, because I've never been to the turning point, but I just want to get like a taste of like, what was the Toronto punk scene like back then? Okay. Well, this would have been in like 80,

I guess early 82 thinking. And, um, yeah, it was just a real divey punk rock bar on Bloor Street on the second floor, above, right across from where the museum is. So St.

George. Yeah. It's near there. Yeah. It's near. Yeah. Um, little, little farther west of there. Pretty much across from

the Conservatory of Music. Oh, yeah. And near Varsity Stadium there and that sort of little block. I'm going to say Avenue Road in Bloor maybe. Yeah, between Avenue and St. George or Bedford.

Right. Yeah. They have like a bad shoe museum there now, I think. Yes. Well, that's yeah a little farther down that's a little farther down um yeah it was just a you know really divey uh what could i say a divey jitty punk rock bar run by this couple uh called joe and uh i forget his

wife's name but you know they're a older couple. I remember him sort of being shaped like a bell and her having these Edith Prickley glasses on and coming over and saying, I know how to work this soundboard like the back of my hand. If you guys fuck around, I'll be over here in two minutes and shut you down. We were like, okay, sure. I love it, man.

Who do I, I got coming, Johnny Dovercord's coming on later and he does these like tours of Toronto clubs and, you know, defunct venues and different things. And I got to ask him about the turning point. Yeah, that's not, that's been long gone. So that would have been gone in the 80s. Long gone. But that's the stuff he,

he does focus on the stuff that's long gone. But lest we forget the turning point. And can you name check? Like, do you have any, do you remember any of the punk bands that might've played shitty or not? Like that might've played? Oh yeah, like the Raving Mojos,

the Young Lions, Youth, Youth, Youth, you know, lots of, lots of the Vile Tones, you know, lots of bands played there. That's awesome, man. That's awesome. I'm going to say hello to the third party in the room here. Cause I, cause he, he got to meet, I've known him for a while, like virtually, right?

Like Jason, I've known you a while virtually. And then when Mike Boguski played the backyard, the TMDS backyard studio, there you were. And I got to meet you in the flesh, but dude, nice to see you, Jason, Jason Schneider. Happy new year to you, buddy. Thanks, Mike. Yeah, great to be back.

And, yeah, we're kicking off the year the right way here. So, yeah, I've been working with John for, I don't know, quite a few years now, helping him get his music out there. And we've been friends for a lot longer than that and um yeah and i gotta thank you because when i do i do this uh progressive past of modern melodies with uh brother bill and cam gordon and we were doing the like the canadian punk story if you will and you're the gentleman who put me in touch with uh our guest that day ralph alfon Yes, that's right.

And I'm sure, well, yeah, we never, John and I never discussed, but I'm assuming you know Ralph. I've met Ralph, yes. Yeah. Yeah. He seemed like he was there for everything. Right. Yeah, I know. And yeah, it was fantastic.

And as you know, Jason, I'm always interested in like talking to these guys. I know you hooked me up with Art Bergman back in the day, and I just love to get a taste of what things were like. Because I'm about to, John, I'm about to ask you about a neon Rome. And maybe I can play a little, like play a little neon Rome, and then we're going to get into this. And Jason, anytime you want to chime in, if anything, there's your mic, man. It's open for you whenever you feel like it.

You have a pass. I got it. I got it. All right, let's just do a little bit of this, and then we'll get into it. Roll, roll. Bernard, I'm counting. Yeah. Coming near, this is the time it's not too fear. This is the time I'm moving close to you. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. On my way home, I found it all Maybe it's just not the time of the year To be kissing you all the time I said, I don't know, honey, but your name is so But maybe it changed my mind Hey, John, what's your reaction to what you're hearing in the cans right now? Freaky, man.

I'm having an acid flashback Tell the people what the hell I'm playing here That was a Post-punk group called Indian Rome We were together between 84 and 89 Basically In the Toronto area

Put out one record that came out on New Rose Records which was a French label At the time And Burned bright for a few years record that came out on New Rose Records, which was a French label at the time. And, you know, burned bright for a few years and burned out really quick. Neil Young says that's the way to go. We were like a druggie, like I say, post-punk band. A lot of sort of improvisations.

Very moody stuff. Like you said trippy and then it's because it's got that psychedelic vibe to it. Like it's a punky psychedelic thing. Yes, there was definitely in the 80s resurgence of a lot of sort of 60s vibes going on. There was like some

out and out, almost like 60s clonish type bands and psychedelia. Yeah, it was just trippy, druggie music through a post-punk lens, I guess. And not to bury the lead, I know you did it, but I'm going to bang it home, man. Like, you played in this fucking band. That's right. Yeah.

I was 19 when we recorded this Wow First time in a 24 track recording studio There's a lot of firsts For me with this It wasn't my first band By any means

But it was the first band That ever had a following First band that ever Made a record First band that ever Did a radio interview First band that ever Got played on a radio

You know This type of thing So do you remember What station would have played a Neon Rome? I certainly do. CKLN, 88.1 in Toronto. And do you remember who was the DJ that

spun it? Do you remember? I don't remember who was the DJ that spun it, but Chris Toomey was the program director at the time. One of a few. Yeah. Oh, yeah. First time we ever got charted,

one of our cassettes started getting them. It wasn't even a cassette that we released. It was a live cassette from, I think when we opened up for the, we opened up for the Jesus and Mary chain the first time they came to Toronto. Sure. And our sound man had, you know,

done a board tape, and somehow that got into the hands of CKLN and so they started playing this song and it charted which was kind of weird. We were on the weekly or the monthly chart and it wasn't even really a proper release. They were always very

supportive. I think our record debuted at number one on CKLN. They were ahead of the curve on everything back then. That was the only source for things outside of the mainstream was college radio or underground newspapers like the Nerve magazine or Now magazine. For sure. You know, CKLN, I've had DJ Ron Nelson on the program

because he was hosting Fantastic Voyage, and that was literally the only place you were going to hear hip hop in the city. Right. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, for sure. So shout out to CKLN and the valuable resource at the time. Now, let's talk about, you know, Bruce McDonald here because. Well, actually, before we get into that.

All right, Jason, let's go, buddy. No, I was going to, you know, make a point that a neon Rome, I mean, you know, you guys, it wasn't, you know, it was something more than punk. It was, you know, you guys definitely had, you know, an image that you were trying to get across, a pretty dangerous image too. You know, I mean the way you guys kind of promoted yourselves and, you know, you were, you know, really, I don't want to say, you know,

you know, confrontational. I don't know if that's the right word, but. Well, our singer Neil was very, it was a great, great,

great front man, a great self promoter. Again, before days of the internet and whatnot, he would spray paint the name around town, you know, so there was you know visual in key locations um you know you make these uh posters one of these one of our first posters

was almost like a uh a coming out poster like we are here it was a big it was 11 by 17 poster most in most days most of the band posters were just 8 1⁄2 by 11, black and white, electro set, handmade posters you put on a pole. It's just like twice that size. And the banner read, Attention Heroin Addicts. And it had this whole, it was just basically a big poem written about essentially how wonderful we were. And not advertising a gig or anything, just sort of announcing our sort of arrival on the scene.

Raising awareness, man. This is punk marketing. And he would make, you know, he would take acid and stay up for a couple of days and cutting posters into the shape of a cross. He had this sort of like whole religious motif going on and painting them all red and then putting them up all over town.

So we definitely had a presence in the city, a visual presence that I put 100% down to him. We would help put up the posters, but it was completely driven by him. And yeah, the shows, we always would do a little something extra. Like we never just showed up and used the house lights. We always had, we had a good friend of ours

who would come and do lights for us, but he would bring this homemade lighting board that we made out of essentially wall sockets and wall switches, right? And it was just, you know, plug in here, this switch turns it on and off, and we put in some of those Christmas lights, you know, the floodlights you used to use

to light the outside of your house. we had a big huge uh gigantic black light and so we would do you know different things with fluorescent paint and whatnot um uh we once uh oh we we also had a um we had all these very simple but effective props we had this gigantic um venetian blind like it was it was an industrial sized Venetian blind. It was an industrial-sized Venetian blind, so the actual slats were maybe two inches wide. And we would just shine a light under that

in a certain way and get this really amazing effect. Just a lot of stuff like that. It was never just showing up and playing. Can you shout out any and all venues you remember playing during the, I guess this band, I guess, is together from 84 to 89. Correct, yeah.

And yeah, it was this past, by the time I even started playing in bands, the original punk wave was considered to be kind of over, right? If you wanted to do something interesting, you know, yes, the first band that I played, we played Ram played ramones and teenage head and stooges and all that sort of thing but as soon as they started writing songs you know last thing you would want to do is write a song and sound like the sex pistols right because that was considered you know already done already been there and been in come and gone almost so uh you know we it's like,

so everyone at that time was just trying to do anything sort of new and different beyond that. Um, so the post in post-punk. Right. And, uh, so,

um, yeah, venues, uh, Beverly Tavern, um, uh, Larry's Hideaway,

Lee's Palace. And were these all, uh, the, the Gary's,. And were these all the Garys? Were they booking most of the shows? Oh, no, we booked our own shows. Yeah. The Garys, I mean, the Jesus and Mary Chain show was a Gary show. Right, right, yeah. Yeah, that would be right up their alley.

I love the Garys because the Garys don't book you unless they legit dig your music. Absolutely. And that's awesome. And Gary Cormier, I just learned Gary Top, I saw on Facebook, he was, Gary Cormier's moved, he's still in Ontario, but he's moved, what direction is he moving there?

East, and he's teaching and stuff, and he's doing well. And so both Gary's who have been over here, but they're both doing well in this time of COVID, which is good to hear. Yeah, they deserve, you know, the honour of Canada, I think, those two guys, for what they did for music, not just in this city, but by proxy, the rest of the country.

Oh, good, you gave me another cause for 2022. I got to make that happen, because for sure. Chase, you want to help me with that one? We're going to get the Gary's the Order of Canada. Well, sure. Well, I do know a little bit about how it works now. Oh, because of Bergman? Yeah.

Well, I was, you know, we had to do a little bit of, you know, investigation about how we actually got the Order of Canada. Right. Was it a mistake? They thought he was somebody else? Well, no, no. Well, there were a few people who, you know, we kind of had an inkling who was responsible for this,

and I got in touch with one of them, and he got back to me right away and said, you know, it's all top secret, you know. You mean how Art got nominated? nominated or yeah who put his name forward yeah yeah yeah i guess yeah it it all comes out of the governor general's office and so so so someone who who works there has to put forth the nomination and it's all it's not it's not a transparent process this is a big black box you No, not at all. Oh, but you can nominate somebody, though, can't you? If you have enough signatures or whatever. Yeah, you can, but the final decision has to come from the governor general.

Right. There's a few guys that I always thought, like David Marsden, for example. There's some names I always think we should recognize, especially while they're still here, you know, while they're still with us. For sure, Dave Marsden from CFNY. Yeah, absolutely. And the Garys is another good us. For sure. Dave Marsden from CFNY. Yeah, absolutely. Like, you know, Marsden. And the Garys is another good example, for sure.

Not to sound all old and stuff, but it's hard for some people to imagine in these days how tough it was to come by the stuff that you're interested in. Like, they called it underground music because it was literally underground. You had to seek it out. It was hard to find.

And I just, I'm so sorry for interrupting, but I just talked to Kim Clark-Champness and this topic came up. He's like, okay, you had Brave New Waves. Oh, Brave New Waves, yes, for sure. But you had that. Then he's like, okay, you had maybe the new music. He was on the new music.

What's the other City TV one from that era? City Limits. That's the one. That's the other City TV one from that era? City Limits. City Limits. That's the one. That's the one. Like, yeah, there was, you know, and you mentioned CKLN. Like, there was only, like, where were you getting,

and then the alt mags that you kind of referenced quickly there. Well, Nerve Magazine, even more so than now. I mean, now it was definitely an alt mag, but Nerve was more likely to cover, I guess, smaller bands or lesser known bands in the Queen Street scene? Yeah, well, I'm trying to think. Not just Queen Street. Yeah.

I can't remember. Did you guys end up, did a Neon Roman make a video for, I can't remember if you guys made a video. No, I've put, I've, after the fact, made a couple videos out of some footage that Bruce McDonnell shot of us back in the day. Well, let's talk about that. If you go to YouTube now, there's a couple of videos up.

One for the song that we just heard. But that's all I put those together 10 years ago or whatever. 15 years ago maybe. Okay, so Bruce McDonnell, who some may say he's the hardcore logo fit guy and hardcore logo is fantastic he's the hardcore logo fit guy and hardcore logo

is fantastic but before hardcore logo there of course was highway 61 and uh is it true you're gonna give me all the goods here but uh no was that sorry before highway 61 yeah there was road right roadkill as i understand it was initially supposed to be a documentary road film about a neon Rome before the band imploded. Is that all true? Tell me about neon Rome and Bruce McDonald and then, yeah, Roadkill. Well, at the height of, I guess, our singer Neil, Neil Arbrick is his name, at the height of his sort of grandiosity in conceptual, you know, like, yeah, our band wasn't just a band. It was a concept, man.

It was bigger than that, you know. Very LSD-fueled, all this sort of thing, and various other drugs. But anyway, he got the idea that we should do a movie, and we had a quote-unquote manager at the time who was, you know, was, yeah, he wanted to do something big. So somehow he had gotten in touch with Bruce, I think. And I think that's the way it went. And pitched him this idea about us doing this movie,

which initially involved a shark tank. And, you know, our singer had the opening scene. There would be this uh the camera would would rise out of the water of a shark tank and and we'd be playing in this sort of uh uh you know post-apocalyptic sort of cave or something like that with flames around and and you know you know like mad max or something like we start where apocalypse now leaves off right in that cave except for there's a shark tank and a rock and roll show going on and hedonism and and uh bruce i think he said something like well i don't know about the shark tank that that kind of costs money but um we might be able to do something else so he came up with this idea

of essentially doing a rock and road movie where uh that the basic premise would be to take this downtown Toronto kind of freak show and put us on tour in northern Ontario. At that time, bands would probably play Toronto, and then if they were going out west, if they had another show in Ontario, it would be Thunder Bay, and that would be it. You know, like the idea of playing in Sault Ste. Marie and some of these smaller towns you know just weren't on

yeah you weren't going to like Guelph back then or whatever well maybe Guelph but I'm talking about Northern Ontario Timmins and Capus Casing and Geraldton and you know all these sort of Highway 11 places right that maybe if you were in a you know there's still probably bands

doing the Tavern Circuit up there, but certainly no downtown punk or post-punk bands. Sort of like the idea of the Sex Pistols in Texas. Put us in a situation where it would be immediately, yeah, something would happen. And we were a real bit of a freak show, like I say.

Our drummer at the time, his name was Dogface. And we had this sort of bag man guy that was an unofficial member of the group that played these homemade percussion instruments and stuff that he carried around along with all of his other belongings in these giant bags that he had made. I'm looking at this Look People record right now, folks.

You can't see it? James B. They know exactly who I'm talking about. This guy and his name was Tootsie. James ended up hiring him for, he had a bar for a while in the venue that now is occupied by a place called the Velvet Underground in Toronto.

Sure, yes. That space for a while was called the Beehive. And James hired him, Tootsie, this guy Tootsie. Dave Blank was his real name. At least that's what he told us. To just basically be there as a sort of a prop, you know, instead of having go-go dancers, you'd have

the 60-year-old bag man shaking his things. Anyway, put this freak show band on tour in Northern Ontario and then just see what happens. And then there was to be a rough script kind of written, I think just as a sort of a backup in case things didn't happen. And that was written by Don McKellar.

Wow. And that was the premise. And yeah, right before we were supposed to start working, the band kind of imploded, largely due to our singer who had taken to... He'd stopped doing drugs and started getting more heavily into Buddhism and this sort of thing, and he had his own self-prescribed style of Buddhism,

which involved not talking. If you can imagine your lead singer not talking. It's a trouble. He would seriously take a vow of silence for a couple months in a row. Seriously. My wife has often wished I'd do such a thing. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

I'm sure. And so Bruce ended up turning it into basically a fully fictional story with some characters and events based on the band. Okay, so we can definitively say that A Neon Rome inspired Bruce McDonald's film Roadkill. Okay, so we can definitively say that A Neon Rome inspired Bruce McDonald's film Roadkill. Yeah, definitely.

And when he was making, I think it was Hardcore Logo, in the press he was saying, this is the movie I wanted, because that's more about a band on the road, right? Yes. He said a bunch of times, this is the movie I wanted to make

with A Neon Rome back in the day. That's wild. I think that's a wild piece of history there. So yeah, I don't know if I ever asked you, so what did you think when you saw the movie? Yeah, well, it was a bit surreal because the character, his name's Sean Bowering, well, that's the name of the person who played the character,

but yeah, it was like he shaves his head just like Neil did, and there's all these, clearly he takes a vow of silence like neil did and there's obviously all these these things that were inspired by real events and uh the manager guy in the movie is kind of like our own oral manager and um but i i didn't yeah it was it was a little surreal but due to what was going on at the time, I wasn't bitter about it or anything. I mean, I felt bad that we sort of bailed on Bruce. But at the same time, I just didn't, there was no other way at the time.

We had, it was just too crazy. The band was too crazy. And he won an award and he got high acclaim. So I figured whatever happened, it worked out well for him. Well, yeah, there's no hardcore logo without Roadkill, right? Like it's like you can Roadkill, Highway 61, hardcore logo. Dude, yeah, and you mentioned Don McKellar. Like these are some of our finer, the finer filmmakers here

that you've been, you inspired it all there. That's awesome. I think that's killer. Wow. Yeah. I was around for, we were all started doing stuff at the same time, I guess. I think that was Don's first screenplay that he wrote. It's wild.

Okay, so many places I want to go, but one place I want to go is back to James B. for a moment because there's an ongoing debate on this very program as to whether James B. is famous or not. In your opinion, and I hope you agree with me on this, but let me hear you be honest here, John. Is James B. famous? I would say yes, but I'm biased.

I've known James since 84 or something like that. And we used to do gigs with the Look people in Neon Rome back in the day. We were all part of the same scene. I mean, I even saw James in the B people, which was the band that he had before The Look People, which obviously inspired the name James Bee. Sure. And so, yeah, I mean, over and above his musical contributions,

I mean, he's probably more well-known these days for, he always used to, even when he was in the band, they would always be putting on these sort of like wild parties, like they'd have a thing on a boat or, he was putting on these sort of like wild parties, like they'd have a thing on a boat or he was always promoting these sort of like really wild, you know, extravagant gigs and evenings and events and stuff like that. So he was

always doing way more above and beyond just what was going on in his own band. And now he's a radio personnel. Yeah, he's a jazz man now. I would say for sure he's famous. Agreed, 100% agreed. At least in this town.

And Jason, you agree with us, right? James B. is famous. Oh, of course. How could... I've got my buddy Ed Conroy, better maybe as Retro Ontario. I think there's a documentary in the works with the Melly Fresh peoples, if you will, if you remember Melly Fresh. But there's something in the works with the, the Melly fresh peoples, if you will,

if you remember Melly fresh, but there's something in the works there on James B. James B is definitely famous. So stay tuned for all that. Oh, speaking of docs, I heard there's a doc and I saw the trailer for a documentary coming out on lowest of the low,

which I, I think there's your order. Get Ron Hawkins, the order of Canada. Can we do that? Can we make some calls? I don't get it, Jason. He's going to make that happen.

Yeah, you might be the guy to do that, yeah. All right, I'll take that one, and then you can take the Gary's there. And, you know, speaking of lowest of the low, do you have any interesting interactions through the years with Ron Hawkins? I know Ron, yeah. I know him well.

I mean, I've known him for a long time. Neon Rome, I think they came about a little after Neon Rome was done. We finished in 89, but when I was playing with Change of Heart, we did some gigs with them. And actually, we played with Lowest of the Low the night they broke up.

Oh, this is... Change of Heart, yeah. After Hallucigenia, I think. Is this, like, are we talking like 1994? Mid-90s, 94, 95, around there. Yeah, we were doing a gig in, I think it was Guelph or maybe Kitchener. One of those two places. And we were opening for them.

It was at the cafeteria sort of thing in a university. And after the show, we heard a whole bunch of yelling coming from the other dressing room. And then the road manager came in and said, uh, kind of apologize. Oh, this is embarrassing. And we didn't know what the hell was going on. We just heard, you know, muffled yelling from the next room. Not uncommon when you're on tour with bands. And, um, yeah.

And then he said that, uh, that, uh, the band had broken up. Um, I guess whatever happened that night was the final straw. Wow. So you were there. Then he gave us some extra money because he felt bad. Oh, there you go. So I don't know what that was all about, but we were very appreciative of that.

Maybe he just felt bad for us that we were put in that situation, but it really didn't affect us. Right. That's quite the moment in Canadian rock history that you were witness to there. Although they, of course, got back together. And although Stephen Stanley is not with the band, I did see his smiling face of Ron on this documentary trailer.

So they've definitely patched things up and become buddies again, which is good to see here. Okay. Sorry, go ahead, John. I was just going to say, oh, I would hope so. You know, sometimes it's weird, you know, sometimes bands, especially bands from earlier days, you know, Neon Rome's tried to get together

a couple of times after the fact. And it's just so funny, some of the weird little politics and weird personality quirks that seep their way back into the thing. And, you know, but it doesn't mean that we're not still all friends but maybe it's just best not to work together after a certain point i don't know but the album the album's had it's it's it's had kind of a life after after the band well the well the well the album is called new new heroin and as you said it was released on 87

right this is yeah oh our album yeah yeah yeah and it was it was it was released on... 87, right? Yeah. Oh, our album. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and it was released on New Rose Records in France, which probably still is one of the premier punk labels in Europe. And the whole package was just beautiful, this beautiful artwork. I mean, I guess it's fair to say it's kind of become a cult uh cult favorite um i don't know did i do you i would like that to be the case yeah yeah i mean i i guess i'm i mean we didn't have the kind of uh if yeah i don't know if we're still making the lowest of the low comparison but

i mean they they had they had a much bigger um audience than we did they they you know at the time but um well this was still in the days when there wasn't you know toronto was you know the the toronto music scene was still pretty you know isolated in terms of the rest of the country so yeah we did the 401 that was our touring yeah like we have from montreal to uh london yeah yeah so in between yeah so it wasn't until you you really you you joined a change of heart that you until you joined Change of Heart that you really kind of expanded coast to coast. On that note, I'm going to play some Change of Heart

and we're going to get into that here. Here, let's listen to some Change of Heart. Here you go, standing alone Do you find there's no one home if I could tell you if I could find I would

know all the reasons why I'd reach out to kiss but I'd read your breath, your jealous thought You think I'd drop masks over you that you could be anyone of a crowd Truth is I put a crown much more than roots over your head Truth is I wanna be the wind and draw the day from your hair. Here you go, standing alone. Do you find...

Now, John, you joined the band after this jam, right? Where do I have you in the chronological history of the Change Up? Yeah, well, yes. That's from the record Smile. And while I sing on this record but i joined as a full-time member as a bass player yes after this record came out um but uh they recorded this record live to two track live to dat tape so any uh you know extra backup vocals or any sort of back extra parts parts they needed to have extra people there to do them because there was no overdubbing.

So I was part of the recording process and sang on a bunch of these songs and then I went on tour with them for this record too helping with the driving. I opened up solo and then would sing backups during the show. One of the tours

I think that was during the show one of the tours i i think that was uh the famous tour when uh you know the the east coast bands were first starting to get known i think it was uh yeah it was change of heart sloan and eric's trip yeah yeah we did a tour with uh sloan and eric's trip when they were they were they were first very like very first days of those groups and uh sloan just had their first ep out okay so peppermint ep so pre yeah pre-smeared is it was it speared is that the name of the uh sloan how much i should know that yes i think that's what their first record was right so it's before that oh no the the first ep was uh peppermint yeah so the ep is peppermint okay yeah the first thing they put out was called the

peppermint ep wow and it had that song um know the big Underwhelmed and yeah we did an East Coast tour with those two bands and Eric's trip I don't even know if they had a full album they might have only had a 45 at that point but they were both very brand new but what's it like joining a band

that's kind of mid-flight if you will like because you're not there for the beginning of Change of Heart, but you, like you mentioned, you kind of pop on for Smile and then you're there for Tummy Suckle. And like, what's that like? Well, it was not as dramatic as you would think.

Just because Ian and I had played together. Ian was the drummer in Neon Rome for a spell. Ian Blurton. Ian Blurton, yeah. So he plays on the first record. And Ian and I were real good friends from the day we met, really, which is when I was about 18. And so, yeah, we played in Neon Rome together.

We were always, like I say, really good friends. We shared a common sentiment, a common love for music. And we could talk all night about bands and this and that and uh and then we had also played in other groups too like play with scott b sympathy we play with a few other you know sort of uh you know just sort of uh fun bands and this sort of thing so and then the keyboard player bernard who was in change of heart at the time that i joined he was originally the keyboard player for neon, who was in Change of Heart at the time that I joined, he was originally the keyboard player for Neon Rome.

So it was very much like family, you know, so it didn't feel like I was coming into this scenario that, you know, I was kind of like the new guy. I mean, I'd known those guys for years at that point and we'd already had history playing together. So it was very natural. Highly underrated band, Change of Heart. This is my humble opinion, of course. I was very natural highly underrated band uh change of heart this is my humble opinion of course i think they're highly underrated i think that's a great fucking band like a lot of great stuff too oh yeah absolutely well i mean they were they were

the band that really kind of uh got me into the whole canadian you know indie rock scene um you know i've been listening to american bands uh for sure but uh right but yeah they were yeah to me ian was you know he was he was a god right from day one i actually took i got notes on like some interesting uh you know where you'll spot a change of heart t-shirt basically in like canadian pop culture if you will so right here we go. Here we go. Okay. So who do we actually know? Hold on. Let me check my notes here.

Stephen Page is wearing a Change of Heart T-shirt in the video for Brian Wilson. Correct. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is like... Yeah, I know. Now that you mention it, yeah, those shirts popped up in a lot of... You mentioned Sloan.

So in the video, the original video for Underwhelmed, Andrew Scott's wearing a Change of Heart t-shirt. Yeah, that's right. So already there, you got that, you got Brian Wilson,

you got Blue Rodeo. Who's wearing it? Glenn? Yeah, right. In Rain Down on Me, the music video for Rain Down on Me, he's wearing a...

Mildred's wearing a Change of Heart t-shirt. So it's kind of like... It's just paying tribute, I guess, to the forefathers of the all-rock scene. And I think it's pretty cool. Yeah, I was talking to you. I think it was Our Lady Peace.

We were on our way out to do a festival in Vancouver one year. And we're on the road. We're halfway between here and there. And we're watching Much Music. And one of the band, there's this new band called Our Lady Peace that was being interviewed. So anyone you're looking forward to seeing out there?

Oh, yeah, we want to see Change of Art. And I think I was wearing a Change of Art T-shirt. That's awesome. Yeah, that's nice. That's nice. Well, let me play one of my favorite changes. And again, this might be before you joined

the band although you played it many times on tour but I'm gonna play some herstory here and then I'm

going to give you some gifts for making the track here and then we're gonna get right back to it here but here's a

bit more change of heart Change of Heart. It's a house built on the other side of the road The doors are locked and no one's home A look in the window for all to see A looking window for all to see A child remains of what something can be So you figure it out for yourself The answer for you and no one else Secret gasoline fuels the fire

Spark the fuse and you'll find Inside a bomb fuel the fire Burn the cage and be alive I don't wanna know why You give in and try To give him back the only Way I'll ever know you I don't wanna know You just drifted, strapped and hold Woo!

Still sounds great in the headphones. Sounds great. John, man, go ahead. Oh, no. Well, no, I was just, you know, the great, well, this was Tommy Suckle, the album, which was the first record that was put out by a major label for the band. And this was, so you guys got picked to open for the Tragically Hip.

Right. At this time on their Day for Night tour. And I know there's a couple good stories from that tour. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I've got you opening for The Hip and Blue Rodeo. And I would love, you got any, it's funny, Look People has, oh, yeah, that's right now. Never mind, that's Bare Naked Ladies.

Because Kevin Hearn's in Look People and Bare Naked Ladies. But the Tragically Hip, and I was thinking of that because Kevin Hearn was very close to Gord at the end of his life. Right. And I did a couple episodes about that with Kevin. But please, John, anything you can share about Change of Heart opening for the Tragically Hip?

Well, they were very good to us over a couple years there in that time period. We did two U.S. tours with them, uh, opening, you know, the really nice halls,

uh, Vic theater in Chicago, the oldest, uh, vaudeville theater in Chicago and the Southern tour, also blues, all sorts of cool places like that. And then,

um, the big, um, cross Canada, uh, Canadian tour for their day for night record, which was, you know,

um, hockey arenas you know all the NHL arenas like the Maple Leaf Gardens Montreal Forum Saddledome all those places and then it's and then a whole bunch of the whatever the the next the Atlantic League or whatever there you know there's other yeah there's a whole other league they have like five to ten thousand seat arenas you know out east and various other parts in the country so I think there's a whole other league they have like 5 to 10,000 seat arenas you know out east and various other parts in the country so I think there was about 20 shows

all together that came out that happened the same time that that record Tummy Suckle came out. So what was the story about you're playing somewhere and there was actually a tragically hip tribute band playing the same night across the street or something? There was a tragically Hip tribute band playing the same night across the street or something.

Oh, yeah. There was a Tragically Hip tribute band that was following the tour. And I think they were called Road Apples or something like that. Sounds about right. At the time, there was about five. And this was in 1995.

This was in 1995. And there was already like four or five active Tragically Hip cover bands. That's how big they were even back then. I know Road Apples was 30 years ago last year, so that was 91 for Road Apples. For the record, yeah. But so this band and the bus company in Canada

where we got our tour buses from, it was the Hip, Change of Heart and The Odds was on our tour. So the Hip had two buses, one for the band, one for the crew. The Odds had one bus, and we had one bus. Well, the bus company only had five buses, and the fifth bus was occupied by the tragically hip cover band, right?

And they were basically shadowing the tour across the country, right? Which is kind of genius when you think about it. Well, yeah, exactly. It makes perfect sense if you're a cover band, and the band that you're covering is your tribute band, and the band that you're a tribute to is going on the road. Well, you go on the road too. Right.

Anyway, there was one night where they were playing literally across the street from us. I think it was in Kamloops, B.C. Yeah. And after our set, or after the odds set, I guess, myself and some of the odds and a couple of people from our band, a small group of us went over to the club just to see this phenomenon.

Now we just, you know, this is towards the end of our tour, so I'd probably seen them like 15 or 16 times within almost as many days or just, you know, like just a few more days. Right. The actual hip, right? And so we go across the street and we get up to the door

and there's a line up there and we kind of look at each other and we go, I wonder if, I guess our passes probably work, right? I wonder if our passes work. We have the passes to the actual tour. Right.

So we walk up and they're like, oh yeah, yeah, come on in. So we go up and we're sitting there watching this band and it was like one of the most surreal experiences I've ever had in my life. If I think if I ever,

if I've ever had an acid flashback, that would be the night because it was just, like I said, we just, you know, I watched them every single night. I watched the hip every single night that we played with them. And then here we were looking at this band and the guy was saying the same kind of things that Gord would say, right? And it wasn't like they're, and the the guy was saying the same kind of things that gourd would say right and it wasn't like there and and the guitar player was moving like bobby baker moved right with the hair and and uh and gourd i think even or and gourd the singer even told a story about uh being a goalie

and gourd was a goalie in in hockey in hockey and and it was just the weirdest thing and i remember walking back into the arena and and by this time the hip had finished their set and the first person I saw was Gord. And my eyes are like fucking saucers. And he looked at me, he's like, is everything okay? And I just said, you're not going to play. We just saw that tribute band across the street. I feel like I'm having an acid flashback.

He's like, are you okay, man? You got to like poke Gord and are you real or are you memorex that's the question it's very odd very strange i love it but i just say as a general thing though um they were they were wonderful they um treated uh treated us so well and um it's probably still like this today but at that time especially you know bands were paying to go on tour with for a big show like that or they would they Or they would do it for such a paltry amount that they were practically paying to go on tour. And they paid us well.

We were treated great. I mean, they're truly a class, class act. Well, that's good to hear. I think you're making a lot of Canadians happy by reconfirming that suspicion we all had, but that the hip were good. We're and are good people. Hey, we're all, definitely, definitely.

And what about Blue Rodeo? Same thing with them. Yeah, last time I saw Jason's beautiful face here was Mike Boguski in the backyard. So we're in the backyard. He's got his keyboard. I know you got your guitar here. And Boguski goes into Diamond Mine,

and it's just this great Boguski magic music and everything. Filling the sky. There's neighbors peeking up over fences. Where is that beautiful music coming from? So what was it like opening for Blue Rodeo when you were in Change of Heart? Much the same. Much the same.

They're all great guys. We had known them. They're from the same... Crash same they're all you know great guys we had known them um you know like they're from the same crash date crash Vegas right that was uh wasn't that Greg wasn't Greg in crash Vegas yeah yeah he that was yeah well that was sort of yeah him and Michelle that was sort of their side project yeah okay but we knew Blue Rodeo just from like we're of the same from the same Queen Street uh downtown scene played a lot of the same places and, you know, just knew those guys already. And so, and, you know, the drummer Glenn

had played drums with Change of Heart on Smile and, you know, him and I had played, we're playing together in a band called Groovy Religion and, you know, at the time, so. All connected. We're all very, very close and friendly and, yeah, I mean,

they're the same. They, you know, just treated us really well and, you know, we got to play in nice places in front of larger crowds and, you know.

Man, I hope you're comfy. I realize I got so much ground I want to cover with you because we're going to talk about your solo stuff and some Handsome Ned stuff and I got to talk to you about the change of heart in so much ground I want to cover with you because we're going to talk about your solo stuff and some handsome Ned stuff and I got to talk to you about the change of heart

and CFNY I know we alluded to CFNY but I got to give you some stuff because you made the trek here so you my friend I should have asked you this before

but I'll just ask it now do you eat meat? sure do alright did I ask you that before by the way? nope I got a note to self

I screwed this up with Kyle Christie a couple weeks ago ask that question before the by the way? No. Okay. I got a note to self. I screwed this up with Kyle Christie a couple of weeks ago. Ask that question before the guest is live on the air with me. I have a meat lasagna for you in the freezer upstairs from Palma Pasta. Oh, my gosh. So Palma Pasta. Ship that over. They heard John Borough is going to be in the TMDS studio,

and you're not leaving home without it. But you're going to love it. You're going to love it. I love it. Yeah, I love it. I'm half Italian, so I'm already happy. The good half. That love it. I'm half Italian, so I'm already happy. The good half. That's right.

Right. And you'll let me know what you think, because this is the best Italian food you're going to buy this side of Italy, for sure. So thank you to Palma Pasta for that. I have some fresh craft beer from Great Lakes Brewery for you as well. Like that too. Delicious craft beer, brewed locally, but you can find it in LCBOs across this fine province. So thank you, Great Lakes. Again, this is the first live episode, like in-person episode of 2022.

So it's good to have Palma Pasta here. It's good to have the Great Lakes. Ridley Funeral Home have actually sent over- I hope I don't need that for a while. They're going to keep you safe so they don't see you for a long, long time, John. Well, when you pull this out, I time, John. When you pull this... This is like a safety light.

It's a flashlight. You need to stay safe. That's for you. You take that home with you. This is in case you accidentally get buried alive. You can see what's going on inside the coffin. Get to your cell phone. They want you to stay safe.

I'm still figuring out the reasoning, but I think it's just handy to have a measuring tape with you at all times. I think it was Tish Eyston who was here and said she keeps one in her purse. So this is a Ridley Funeral Home measuring tape for you. So some swag from Ridley Funeral Home. And shout out to the good people. Does it get my coffin dimensions before? That's right.

You almost hit your head a few times. I put Jason in charge of making sure you didn't hit your head, and he failed three times, I think. Yeah, but I said it's not on to you guys, man. I tell you, if there's something for me to knock my head into, I will find it. It doesn't take much here. Go ahead.

No, that's why I'm a publicist. I'm pretty much useless at everything else. Well, that's great. And there's another fantastic. Can I open one of these? Oh, my God, yeah. Do you want a colder one? I could run upstairs and get you a colder one. No, no, we're here. So you've got the. Can I open one of these? Oh, my God, yeah. Do you want a colder one? I could run upstairs and get you a colder one.

Okay, okay. So you got the lager. Yeah, of course you can open that. Cheers, buddy. Thank you, Great Lakes. That's delicious. Very kind of you. Enjoy.

It is a little chilly down here, so it's been naturally chilled. But while you enjoy your Great Lakes beer, this is a wireless speaker. It's a Bluetooth wireless speaker uh courtesy of manaris and john when you hook this up you're going to use it to listen to the yes we are open podcast which is hosted by fotm al grego because al's been traveling the country interviewing small canadian businesses and then he tells the story of their origin their struggle their future outlook and if you're a small business owner or entrepreneur and we've been pivoting like crazy with the different shutdown rules and this uh you know this this pandemic that doesn't seem to want to go it

doesn't want to go gently into that good night unfortunately uh you will be inspired uh by this helpful and motivational podcast yes we are open and you can go to yes we are open podcast. you can go to yesweareopenpodcast.com to subscribe. And I urge you to do that. So that's for you, John. Great. Well, thank you. Thank you.

I know plenty of small business owners. It's tough times, man. Especially depending on what you do. But I'm thinking like for restaurants, like can you imagine being told now, okay, yeah. First of all, it's like minus 10 degrees out there.

Nobody's going to a patio in this city right now. And indoor dining is being shut down again. That's going to hurt. It's tough times, man. Yes. We're going to lose a lot of fine restaurants doing this. Yeah.

Well, we already have lost some in the first rounds. Yeah. And yeah, I felt for, I mean, for me as a musician, I knew that, you know, we'd be some of the last people to start going back to work when the first lockdowns and everything were happening. So when things started to, quote unquote, started to open up a little bit,

I would never get too excited because I knew that everything would start opening up before there'd be a few stages to go through before I personally started working again. But all the places, especially the restaurants, any place that has had to sort of navigate the different ways to do about this. Should we have a pop-up bar?

Should we do just takeout? Should we do delivery? You know, going through just people I know who are running these, you know, that amount of stress and trying to, you know, pivot this way, pivot that way, wondering is it worth it to do this? Is it worth it to do that?

You know, it's a... It's a nightmare. A lot of nightmare. And then opening up and shutting down, opening up, shutting down. It's very difficult. And then there's things you don't even realize. Like, okay, so they're still selling

cans of fresh craft beer at the retail store, which is not too far from here, and then in LCcbo's but then you think oh yeah they also like beer is also bars serve their beer right and these bars keep having to shut down in restaurants and then also events like the big part of the uh is especially and even palm apostate of the catering is large of gatherings and events like be it weddings or just parties and different events that they would cater. And they've been few and far between during the pandemic and then they get shut down again.

So my heart goes out to them all. I hope we can hang in there because this is a tough curveball we all got in the last few weeks. Yeah. Well, I like to think of this, that's what they've been saying anyway, that while the infections are far saying anyway, that while the

infections are, it's far more infectious that hopefully it doesn't last as long in the sense it's not as dramatic as in times. Well, this is the, this is the, the, the, the, the bright side is that, yeah, it's highly contagious, but hopefully less severe. And we are, again, everyone in this room is triple vaxxed, which takes the, the teeth out of it. As I've been saying too often, it defangs COVID. Right. Good, good, good way to put it.

Oh, I've been using it so often, it's become a cliche here. But we defanged COVID, and let's hope that post-Omicron things can open up again and we can return to some sense of normalcy. Now, I've got to get you back to CFY because I'm a big fan of the station and I do remember the Discovery to Disc competition and I

remember it was Change of Heart that beat out Treble Charger and the Killjoys. Do you have any insight into that? I think Change of Heart won $100,000 for that year's competition. Definitely did, yes. I was reminded recently that, yeah,

I guess we only decided to enter that competition literally the last night, the night of the last day for submission. So it was really, really a last-minute thing. And normally, yeah, we've never really, I personally, and I think I can speak for the rest of us, never really did any sort of Battle of the Bands competitions or anything like that, but they were giving away $100,000. And, you know, people that we knew,

like the Bare Naked Ladies had won it and then the year after that, Head had won it. So these were our contemporaries, right? So it was like, well, maybe we should go for the $100,000. And yeah, go figure. We got down? So it was like, well, maybe we should go for the 100,000. Yeah, go figure. We got down to the final five was, yeah, Trouble Charger, Killjoys, us, and two other bands.

I can't remember. And, yeah, I guess for whatever reason, you know, we ended up with the prize. And, yeah. Awesome. Awesome. Quick fun fact before we leave Change the Heart behind here prize. And, um, yeah. Awesome. Awesome. Uh, quick fun fact before we leave change a heart behind here, cause there's so much to cover, but,

uh, smile. So the producer for smile was, uh, I hope I get his last, but say it right. But, uh,

Michael Phillip, Wajawoda. Wajawoda. Hey, I knew I was going to butcher that. Polish. Yeah. Yeah.

It's like, sorry, I did butcher that. But, uh, what's interesting is at the same time as he's producing Smile for Change of Heart, he's also working on Barenaked Ladies, Gordon, and Real Statics, Whale Music.

So I think that's like a fun CanCon alt-rock fact. Yeah. Those are three big albums. Yeah, Michael produced a lot of people at that time and a lot of records that, yeah, were kind of big in the in the the km con lexicon from from the 90s there for sure uh can we say hello to uh new fotm so you're probably wondering why does mike keep saying fotm that means friend of toronto mike you're now an

fotm jason's already been an fotm uh ron sexsmith is an fotm so uh just I had a great, just a great experience of Ron. Is Ron as nice and decent as he appears to be to me? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I don't think that guy could put on an air if he wanted to. He's just a nice guy. It is what you get. He is what you get. I played with him for a couple of years, if that's why you're asking. Yeah, that's exactly why. Because I know you played with him and Serena Ryder, who I why you're asking. Yeah, that's exactly why, because I know you played with him, and Serena Ryder, who I did meet at a Humble and Fred Christmas party. I met Serena Ryder, but she seemed very nice as well.

You know, I just found a, I just bought myself a cassette deck, which I haven't had at home for many years, and so therefore I'm going through some cassettes. I was going to say old cassettes, but they're all old cassettes. And I just came across a tape that we had recorded

while I was still playing with Ron. It must have been towards the end of my time playing with him. I stopped playing with him around the time I started getting serious with Change of Heart. And it was also around the same time that he got his publishing deal and was starting to, whatever,

do more stuff on his own and whatever. they had other plans for him but um we had uh we had recorded a bunch of songs in the gas station recording studio with the band with don um don kerr ron and myself and maybe even kurt swinghammer on guitar i can't remember but anywho i just came across this tape and uh yeah there's some great stuff on there i thought um a lot of songs that he never recorded and um yeah ron's first record was um you know a lot of ballads and sort of like mid tempo and ballads sort of uh you know beautiful songs and that was always something that he did really well but when i was playing with him and even before i

started playing with him if you listen to his first tape there's some real rockers on there there's some real barn burners we had some like barn burning songs that um were just like absolutely like tear it up kind of songs in the live set and this cassette table all the band songs they're all like up tempo wow they're all like sort of like rocking rocking songs and um yeah i don't know he seems to have stuck with that um kind of balladeer sort of like rocking songs. And yeah, I don't know. He seems to have stuck with that kind of balladeer sort of thing for most of his international or broadly known career. And yeah, I was just reminded. I've often wondered over the years,

or not wondered, but thought back upon, I wonder why he doesn't do any of that rocking stuff anymore. We used to do that. Am I right about that? Yeah, I'm right about that. I'll ask him here. But anyway, I did send it to him and Don. Cool.

Sweet. Who knows, maybe his next record will be a barn burner. I can't wait to hear that. So, Handsome John, I'm just going to play an artist that you don't hear a lot about, but I want to talk about this artist here. Let's go artist here. Go back. I open up my heart to you, you look the other way and say that I'm not true. And now I'm paying for things I never done. It'll be the death of me cause the guy before me gave you misery gave you misery heartaches

misery crying heartaches misery now you're shouting okay John tell the good people who are we listening to here that is the one and only Handsome Ned from Toronto Ontario

Toronto's own Handsome Ned from Toronto, Ontario. Toronto's own Handsome Ned, another guy. Massac is his last name. Doesn't quite get the recognition he deserves. Maybe tell us a little bit about what does

Handsome Ned mean to you and the scene. We've kind of touched on Blue Rodeo and I'm thinking of Cowboy Junkies and Sky Diggers and Prairie? We've kind of touched on Blue Rodeo and I'm thinking of Cowboy Junkies and Sky Diggers and Prairie Oyster and some of these bands that kind of became famous

because of this Roots rock revival we had. Tell us more about Handsome Ned and his role in all this. Well, other than being one of the aforementioned bands you mentioned, playing roots music in country and rootsy music

in what I would consider the punk bars or the post-punk bars, as opposed to... This is on Queen Street around Queen and Spadina, what we think of the Queen West area. If you went into Parkdale at that same time in the early 80s, there was lots of bars where there was country music, but it wasn't people playing original songs. It was very much the top 40 or whatever.

They had all covers and union gigs and that sort of thing. But as far as doing roots music in sort of like a new context and to the punk and post-punk alternative crowd, if you will, yeah, there was a handful of groups at that time on Queen Street, and Ned was definitely one of the more prominent ones. He really had that, you know, almost the most sort of honky-tonk country of the bunch, if you will. But not just that.

He was one of the hardest working people down there. He was playing all the time. He'd be doing one gig at one place and then going across town to do another gig at another place. Then a booze can after that. He had a radio show on CKLN of which he was very supportive of bands and other bands that were coming to town or bands that were coming up. So he was a real champion of the scene.

He wasn't just a guy. There was some groups down there at that time that were kind of like full of themselves, a little stuck up and, you know, too cool for school sort of stuff ned was never like that he was like the coolest of everybody but he was also one of the friendliest of everybody and um yeah he was just uh sadly died of a heroin overdose in uh was it uh 87 87 yeah and um but, just to give you an idea of that,

but, you know, a group like Neon Rome, we would do gigs on the same bill as Handsome Ned. Wow. You know, like that's how small the scene was, you know, this quote-unquote roots scene. They were just, every band kind of sounded different at that time. Every band had their own thing, but they were all playing at the same places.

There wasn't like the one bar where all the rootsy bands played and another bar where all the hardcore bands played. I mean, they all playing at the same places. There wasn't like one bar where all the rootsy bands played and another bar where all the hardcore bands played. I mean, they all played at the same places. That's wild. And often on the same bills. And that's, everyone was looking for their own sound. And, um, yeah, the Blue Rodeo did not sound,

they were all, I guess, sort of rootsy, but the Rheostatics, or sorry, the, um, Skydiggers? Oh, yeah, well, the Skydiggers, Blue R rootsy, but the Rheostatix. I'm sorry. Skydiggers? Yeah, well, the Skydiggers, Blue Rodeo, and who am I thinking about? Donnie Cartwright and the Rockabilly... Razorbacks? Razorbacks. Thank you.

Thank you. You know, they all kind of sounded different. They didn't all sound the same. You know, the Razorbacks were kind of like a Rockabilly thing. Ned was sort of a honky-tonk thing. Blue Rodeo was kind of, you know, the Razorbacks were kind of like a rockabilly thing. Ned was sort of a honky-tonk thing. Blue Rodeo was kind of, you know, almost like a Gordon Lightfoot, Neil Youngish kind of thing. Sure.

Yeah. So, yeah, everyone was trying to sound different, trying to do their own thing. But there wasn't enough bands to have a whole scene or a whole club just around rootsy bands or just around hardcore bands so they all they were all sort of alternative none of them were mainstream right right that's their that was the the time thing that tied everyone together was no one was mainstream but john it's okay this is something that comes up often on the show so i'm of an age that i would

grow up uh i was listening to top 40 radio and i distinctly remembered and we're not going back that far here like late 80s even early 90s that you would listen to top 40 radio and i distinctly remembered and we're not going back that far here like late 80s even early 90s that you would listen to top 40 radio in this city and you'd have like a i don't know there'd be a blue rodeo try by blue rodeo would be right beside like deaf leopard which would be right beside i don't know boys to men like bottom line is all the genres were kind of intermingling all the time on these stages like today you, you'd never see that, right? I feel like today, you're never going to have like a Def Leppard right beside like, I don't know, Young NC.

You know what I mean? That was just how it was. Well, that was before the corporations took over everything, really. I think if it comes down to it, you know, back in the 80s, you know, radio, you know, radio programmers, I think if it comes down to it, back in the 80s, radio programmers, I think, they did have some more freedom than they do today. DJs on, yeah. I think that's not a controversial statement.

So the cable companies have taken over. Is that the deal here? Well, no, no, I wouldn't say that. But I i mean um you know i don't want to mention any names but but no i mean i think you know i think most people know by now you know probably 90 of all the radio stations are owned by one or two companies so and they have the same they seem to all have the same playlist so you know this has been going on for several, a few decades now, where if you're listening to a modern rock station in the state of New York and you're listening to a modern rock station in California, you're going to be hearing the same playlist. That might be like, for example, that might be like a Clear Channel playlist

that's national, but we have it here too. You might be hearing Vancouver's modern rock station might be playing exactly what you hear on like Edge 102.1. Yes, exactly. Whereas back then, like DJs had the more freedom to play what they wanted. And, you know, you could have, you know, someone that was in the top 10 in, say, Toronto

wouldn't necessarily be in the same top 10. Low is a good example, man. I have this debate with Sammy Cohen from The Watchmen. I know you know Sammy, right? John, you know Sammy from The Watchmen, don't you? I met him years ago. Cam has memories of Sammy, right? John, you know Sammy from The Watchmen, don't you? I met him years ago. Cam has memories of you guys on stage together, but my buddy Cam.

Okay, so he's from Winnipeg, Sammy. The whole Watchmen are from Winnipeg. And I'll go off, I'll celebrate low because I was hearing a lot of low on 102.1. They played the hell out of the Lowe. And Shakespeare, My Butt, which is 30 years old now. And, you know, and Sammy would be like, you know, they couldn't play the, what's it called, the Cameron?

Not the Cameron House. What's that horseshoe tavern like in Vancouver? What's the thing? Commodore. Commodore. That's the one, not the Cameron House. The Commodore Ballroom or whatever. Like Lowe couldn't sell that out. And he would tell and it's like oh yeah like shit like like some sometimes there

were there were local hits like you know nowadays everything is sort of a national template that gets copied and pasted across the board I agree homogenized homogenized yeah well I think to bring it back to Ned I think yeah you know what you were saying about how hard he worked and you know he was unfortunately I never got to see him I was too young but you know but from everything I've heard

he was an entertainer he wanted to put on a show for people and that really got a lot of people turned on to country music who probably wouldn't have, you know, heard,

heard it otherwise. So, yeah, for sure. And when you play, John, when you, when you,

you know, when you do your solo work, you're, you're keeping that legacy of handsome Ned alive. Like, absolutely. I mean, I,

I, not literally, but pretty much doing that song pretty much every time I play. So, most of the time, I mean, not literally, but pretty much doing that song pretty much every time I play. Most of the time. You're carrying the torch. Yes. Yeah. Well, okay.

Well, yeah. Well, maybe we can talk about that, how you sort of made that transition. Well, I don't even know if it was a transition. Okay. But while you tell me that, I just need to know, is it true, John, that you worked as a subway busker for a while? I did, yes.

I think that's cool. I think that's fucking cool. So what station, Young Bloor? Where would we find you busking? Well, they did have a schedule every day that you could adhere to, but I mainly just stuck to the downtown stations, right? Like College Park, yeah, Young and Blue, Bay Station. Wellesley College.

Yeah, not Wellesley, but yeah, not every station at that time had the, you were allowed to play in, but, you know, Young and Dundas, you know. Sure, Queen and Dundas. I would go to Eglinton or wherever, right? Cool. All right, now Jason, my co-host Jason,

was leading on. Does this tie into Blue Wine? Because I do want to talk about Blue Wine and I have some jams from Blue Wine that I could play, but I also know you brought a guitar, so I'm pretty flex on all this, but would it be helpful if we heard a little bit? Sure.

I mean, I don't have to play my guitar. I'm happy to just keep talking. Well, do you want to? Whatever you want to do. Okay. Maybe I'll play them both, but can I play some of The Wars? Sure. And then we'll talk about that.

Here we go. I was a janjar. I was a melting pot. I worshiped building blocks And summer storm I was a leafy branch I was rick of the trash I was a briggy in flames And right through words

That you have harbored me Had I been less at sea Could I have led the new Between the bars. Our love was brave as sand. And top of government. Fierce as a garment red. Amid the wars.

You were a miner. Amid the wars You were a miner You were a union song He tempered tenor tacks And inland sea I might have rescued you After you'd fallen through But then I saw thirty-two

On broken knees Could you have harbored me? Had I been less at sea? Could I have left you sea Could I have levity Between the bars I love most bravest men Top of government Slack as a common man

I'm Nick Award Who's backup? Slack as a common red A nickel war Whose backup, whose voice do I hear with yours, John? It's Danny Nash is her name. Nice, nice. Well done. The Wars sounds great, buddy. This is from Blue Wine. So please bury me in information about how Blue Wine came to be

and this particular jam. Well how Blue Wine came to be and this particular jam. Well, the record came to be... I was going to make... I put out some records with a group called Rattlesnake Choir. And one of the members, one of our key members left. And after I'd already started doing some recording and I just thought I'd sort of maybe retool it more into like a solo record. So that kind of came about.

This song in particular and two others on the record are co-writes with a poet named Eva HD. She is a published poet and fantastic. I think she's just great. And we didn't really know each other that well when we first started working together. We just had a mutual friend, a guy named Korn Raymond, who's been doing one of my songs for years, and I guess she knew that and, you know, liked the song. And I found out that she had, you know,

co-written a song with this other friend of ours, David Baxter. So I had just said to her, listen, if you've got any lyrics, you want me to have a stab at something send them along so she sent me the lyrics to a song called Machu Picchu and they were actual lyrics they weren't just poems

that I had to when I say actual lyrics I mean they rhymed they had a certain you know rhythmic sort of cadence and meter to them easily broken down into verse and chorus type things. And yeah, so she sent me one. And I mean, the song just literally kind of just plopped out real smooth and easy.

And so we did that a couple more times. And that was the wars, of course. I'm going to play. Is it okay? I'm going to play a little off my feet. Is that okay? Yeah, sure. Is that okay?

And if somebody listening wants to get their hands on blue wine, where would you direct them? You can go to my band camp page. Well, you can go to my website, johnbora.com, and that will direct you to... Spell Bora just for fun here. B-O-R-R-A. Two R's, everybody.

That's right. So johnbora.com is like your hub for all things. That's right, yeah. All your John Bora needs. I mean, yeah, my stuff is on Spotify and those places, but if you want an actual physical product like an LP, you can go to the Bandcamp page, or if you want to download tracks,

you can go to the Bandcamp page. All right, you said the S words, so I got to ask, because I've been having this conversation with many a talented musician, but it sounds like if you're not The Weeknd or Drake the streaming it's tough to to make a you know to feed yourself on the streaming money that's correct 100% and then it's then every time I get into it though that you can't afford not to be there right like you you can't you have to be there because that's

where that's become the you mentioned the hub johnber.com is the hub for all your john boer needs but a lot of people have spotify or apple music as their hub for all their musical needs if you're not there you're invisible to them correct yeah that's that's pretty much the the crux of it right there you have to be there it's it's um well music uh the record industry used to be based on selling records right a sales-based model right touring and everything was only there to support the sales of the records band which would traditionally lose money when they went on tour or hope to break even right record companies would give bands tour support because they would traditionally lose money when they were on tour but it would all be about promoting the records that people would then go down to the store and buy right there was the commerce was that's where

the commerce was and now we essentially rent we pay a fee a monthly fee to um rent access to somebody else's record collection right yeah and it's only like 10 bucks a month or something and then you have like a universe of all music of all time at you know your fingertips so obviously that doesn't break down plus the way the algorithms obviously even if it was completely fair across the board it's still you know how do you

split $10 a month between every record out there in the world right? And there are still some cheap bastards out there who are using the free version which means they just get an ad cheap bastards out there who are using the free version, which means they just get an ad and then they pay even less to the artist if you're on the free version, is what I understand.

Oh, man. And so, yeah, I mean, it's taken that sort of commerce part right out of it. So you no longer go down and purchase a record. You just sort of like rent access to the space. So there's that. And then also the way that those algorithms work, yes, that the Drakes and, you know,

the people at the top there are making also the lion's share of that $10. So the small share of that $10 gets split up between all us little minions. And so there's that. But you can't afford not to be there. You have to be there's that, but yeah. But you can't afford not to be there. You have to be there.

That's the thing. So you're, it's a catch 22 really. Like, and, and what, I guess what's happening now is your, your true fans,

if you will, those who will come to see you live, et cetera. Like you need, those true fans need to buy physical media from you, right? Like they need to actually. They don't need to,

but they can. Yeah. They should. Like they literally, they, They don't need to, but they can, yeah. They should. Like they literally, to support your local, you know, streaming isn't sufficient to support the artist you love so that they can afford to make the Toronto rent, etc. You need to go to johnbora.com and maybe you some, perhaps you sell something there

as a tangible in nature that, you know, puts more money in your pocket. Well, I will say that the LP is a beautiful package. There you go. Well, yeah. Geez, yeah, I should have brought you one. Yeah. Looking at that stack of records.

Come on, buddy. Yeah, well, yeah, there's that from the monetary point of view, but also from the point of view of, you know, when you went down to the, before, view of, you know, when you, when you went down to the, before, when you bought a record, when you put up money for it,

you were more invested in it. And, you know, you only had the records at home that you had. Well, that's pride of ownership. You didn't have a million, a million of them.

And so you would tend to listen to them more, right? If you bought it, you're sitting in the record store and you're looking at two records and you only got the, you know, you can only afford to buy one of them and you're humming and highing and you choose record number a and you get it home and you put it on you go ah damn i should

have gotten record b right but you'll give record a a good solid chance you'll you'll play that you'll play that record to make sure that right you know because you've paid for it and sometimes out of that you know sometimes you know records it takes a sometimes out of that, you know, sometimes, you know, records, it takes a few, few plays before you really, it really grabs a hold of you. It's like, you know, when you buy,

when you own a car, let's say you own your car, you drive it differently than when you got a rental. Right. It's like, you'll fuck that shit up of the rental because, you know, you're giving it back the next day or whatever.

But when you own that car, you, you're, you're careful because you got it for the long haul or whatever. But when you own that car, you're careful because you got it for the long haul. There's pride of ownership there. I don't want to get way off topic here, but talking about records just makes me think of...

Are you familiar with the filmmaker Alan Zweig? Yes, of course. I think if he hasn't been on the show yet, I think you should definitely try to get him on the show because I've really kind of... He's fantastic, but we're talking... yet i think you you you should definitely try to get him on the show because uh you know i've i've really kind of um you know he's fantastic but we're talking uh we're talking crumb like we're talking is this the swag you're speaking of or am i talking i got the wrong guy no no no alan's alan's a toronto guy okay he's he's he's made uh he's made two documentaries now on, on record collectors, like obsessive record collectors.

Right. Only because, uh, similarly here, just because now you said the name and then I was here, I'm going to documentary standby. This is important. Googling I'm doing right now,

but, uh, there's a Terry's wig off. Of course, not even. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I know what you're talking about. Yes. Yes. I know exactly who you're talking about. Uh, I will get them on actually, because that's right up my alley. Uh, before. Yeah, yeah. I know who you're talking about. Yes, yes. I know exactly who you're talking about. I will get him on, actually, because that's right up my alley.

Before I forget, I want to give a Toronto Mike sticker to you, John. This is courtesy of StickerU.com. Great. E-commerce, so they should be okay through this pandemic. But you go to StickerU.com, upload your image, and you can get your stickers and decals

and all your other swag that you could then sell at JohnBora.com to your fans. Okay, I want to, because we're going to keep talking here, but I want to hear a little more of your, this is Off My Feet from Blue Wine. You knocked me off my feet You knocked me off my feet I was trying to be discreet But I was knocked out on the street

You took me by surprise You took me by surprise You took me by the eyes And you led me to your thighs I wasn't all in vain You see, I thought that we was on the same plane Again, this is off my feet. Digging in. Were you on, like, when this Omicron showed up?

Am I right, though, John? Were you on a tour? Were you out touring? No, I got back just before the Omicron reared its ugly head. I did a little East Coast tour in the fall. And that's the Going Down the Road tour. That's correct, yeah. With a fellow named David Pico from St. John's, Newfoundland.

I just had on Jane Eastwood, okay? Jane Eastwood is the woman in Going Down the Road because there's the two dudes. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, right, right, right. One of them impregnates this woman. She's the woman, and we had a great going down the road chat. I love that movie. And also in the SCTV parody.

Right? Yeah, she's the only one in both. So amazing. Yeah, well, we started in, like I said, I did it with David Pico from Newfoundland. So he's got the car. So I drove to St. Sorry, I flew to St.

John's. And then so we drove from the reason we call it going down the road is because we were starting in St. John's and ending up in Toronto. Of course. we call it going down the road is because we were starting in St. John's and ending up in Toronto. Of course. That's why. The guys in going down the road, they started in Cape Breton. They started in Cape Breton, yeah.

Still. Close enough. And then, of course, they think, what's the next move? At the end, they go off. They're going to like Vancouver or something at the end of that. It didn't work out in Toronto for our boys. It really didn't work it out in Toronto. So they keep going.

It's been a long time. I think I did revisit it when Jane was coming on. in Toronto. So they keep going. It's been a long time. I think I did revisit it when Jane was coming on. The last, it's a bit open-ended,

but at the end, it looks like they're heading further west to, you know, greener pastures in Vancouver, I think. That's what they thought they were going to

Toronto for. Yeah. I only really know the SCTV version. Really? Oh, yeah. It's like now, you know, because we talked about

Handsome Ned and this scene and then I think of Stompin' Tom and there's that great Stompin' Tom jam and well you've seen the SCTV parody it's fantastic

but John you were fantastic buddy I thoroughly enjoyed this anything else before I play some lowest of the low and wrap this up and make sure I get your lasagna and make sure we take a photo by the tree before you disappear anything else you're going to share are you just going to keep writing and waiting out this damn variant and hope that there's not one behind it

like everybody else? Pretty much, yeah. I've started recording a record of songs by people I've known over the years. There's an Art Bergman song on there, a Ron Sexsmith song, a bunch of people you've never heard of before. You can still name check them because that's how it works around here.

Kip Harness, a guy named Pat Badden. He used to have a band called Luther Victim. Frank Nevada. What else do I got there? Bob Snyder. Well, maybe we could end things by you playing one. Okay, well, the boss has spoken. I didn't want to intrude, but watch your head when you stand up.

That's all I ask. I'll have it unconscious. Watch your head, though. And you're still cabled in with the headphones, too. Lots of logistics work. Whoa, shit. John has hit his head, everybody, and I did my best to warn him. I know.

I told you. I should put a helmet on my head my head will find it I hope that's okay yeah what should I do here from that little collection last time I saw you okay the

the last, the Dakota show, yeah, you did a song by this band I'd never heard of until then, but it was, Oh, The Hacks?

The Hacks, yeah. Yeah, I'm sure. Yeah, that was a great tune. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, could you just, what do we need? My bag over there. Oh, yeah. For the full treatment here. This is awesome. This is awesome.

Yeah, so this was a band called The Hacks that was around Toronto in the, let's say, the late 80s. I just want to grab my harp. Hacks. Love it. Hacks. It was sort of a... I don't know.

They put out one cassette, really. Al Miller was one of the guitar players. He had been in a group called Living Proof, which they used to play at the Turning Point. They were sort of a second wave kind of punk band. And a guy named Sandy Filto who passed away many years ago.

A bunch of the people I've I'm recording on this upcoming cassette are no longer with us. So there's a bit of that going on as well. I'm going to pay tribute to thems that aren't here anymore. This is a song I've been doing for years with my band. It's called Sunken Glue.

It goes like this. Time forgot you Left you to cast away Sunk in glue The rest of our yesterday You don't own much You may lose touch But not your fear I I I too I

See what you want Me to I could try To do That dance with you But I'd rather make The steps up by myself and fall I know it's true

It don't matter no more Cause we'll never get The balance back to the way it was before You say it's through You don't care anymore What are you crying for? What are you crying for? A single smile is all you had left for me After a while, it's all my thoughts can see

But I'll never draw A face around that memory in my mind I know it's true It don't matter no more Cause we'll never get The balance back to the way it was before you say it's true you don't care

anymore what are you crying for what are you crying for Música I know it's true It don't matter no more Cause we'll never get The balance back To the way it was before

You say it's true You don't care anymore What are you crying for? What are you crying for? amazing i'm so glad i wanted to ask you to do that and then jason chimed in and said why don't you do that and i was just so grateful grateful Jason did that because that was incredible. Thanks so much for that. Thank you, Dave. Thank you so much.

Sorry, Mike. Thanks for having me. These are the Daves I know. I know. These are the Daves I know. It's either a Dave or a Mike. You got a 50-50 chance. And thank your generous sponsors, too.

No, thank you. You hear that, sponsors? Making the trek. Yeah. Thanks for making the trek. Again, I got the lasagna for you. You got the Redleaf Funeral Home Swag. You got the sticker from Sticker U.

You got the speaker from Moneris. And, of course, there's some fresh craft beer here from Great Lakes. But, John, thanks again. Blue Wine is the name of the new album. And people can go to johnbora.com to find out more. B-O-R-R-A. That was incredible. And, Jason, thanks for making this happen, buddy.

You're a good FOTM. My pleasure. Let's keep it going through 22. As Kim Clark-Champness said to me, he's going to keep on keeping on. And that's my new mantra for 2022. Keep on keeping on. Thank you, Mike.

And that... and that that brings us to the end of our 978th show you can follow me on twitter i'm at toronto mike john are you on twitter is john on twitter do you know jason not on twitter but you are jason tell us how to follow you on twitter uh j schneider to that's my handle j schneider to and uh johnbora.com again that's where you get all your john bora needs uh fulfilled our friends at great lakes brewery or at great lakes beer we have min Pasta is at Palma Pasta. Sticker U is at Sticker U

and Ridley Funeral Home. They're at Ridley FH. See you all next week. I'm black wine and it won't go away Cause everything is rose and green

Well you've been under my skin for more than eight years Thank you. For me and you But I'm a much better man For having known you Oh, you know that's true Because everything is coming up Rosy and green Yeah, the wind is cold But the smell of snow Wants me to date And your smile is fine

And it's just like mine And it won't go away Cause everything is rosy and green Well, I've been told that there's a sucker born every day But I wonder who Yeah, I wonder who Maybe the one who doesn't realize there's a thousand shades