Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - John Downs: Toronto Mike'd #129

Episode Date: July 15, 2015

Mike chats with John Downs about his years in radio at 680 News, AM640 and 1010. We also discuss his recent night in jail, his work with Sun News Network and why he thinks Doug Ford got him canned.

Welcome to episode 129 of Toronto Mic'd, a weekly podcast about anything and everything, often with a distinctly Toronto flavour. I'm Mike from TorontoMic.com and joining me this week is former News Talk 1010 host, John Downs. Welcome, John. 129. Yes. Nice round number. Well, you know what they say, better late than never. Hey, I'm glad to be here.

Sorry, you had a bit of a TTC ordeal to get here. You know what? It seemed like such a simple trip. I live about a two-minute walk from the Queen car, and it took me 90 minutes to get here. You know, okay, so I've been in this neighborhood for a couple years now. And I literally bike everywhere I can. And then once in a while, I actually have to jump in a car. But when I have to take the TTC, I've been taking the bus to Islington Station and then going along Subway.

Normally, it wouldn't take this long. But luckily, I had about 30, 35 seven-year-olds who were all part of a day camp that were making a trip to High Park. So it took about seven or eight minutes to get them on and seven or eight minutes to get them off, so that could have contributed. Of course, the beautiful short turns, of course. So how do you know there's going to be a I mean, it's a stupid question, but do they tell you

that it's short-turning? Right before, normally, yeah, I mean, they change their minds kind of at the last minute. They get a call saying got a short turn. The other one wasn't too far behind but uh they were kind of bunched up but no it's never fun no but thank you for uh coming here but you've done some uh more impressive traveling lately where did you go oh god uh since february i've been i'll try to rattle it all off. February, I've been to Shanghai, Taipei, Hong Kong, London, Berlin, Hamburg, Belgium. I took a cruise of the St. Lawrence from Montreal to Portland, Maine, and then just finished a trip back from Sydney, Melbourne. Wow.

Cairns, Australia. Sorry, Cairns, Australia. They get very mad if you put it out any other way. Port Douglas and Brisbane. That's some serious traveling. I've had some time on my hands. But this is all personal travel? No, actually, some of it's been professional.

I'm doing some writing, some travel writing. Oh, so you get to expand some of that? Yes, and plus my girlfriend does some travel-related industry stuff as well, so I get to expend some of that. Yes. And plus, my girlfriend does some travel-related industry stuff as well. So I get to tag along. Yeah, that's a good deal when you can do that. It's been good. It's been good in that sense. You know, I got some downtime.

Might as well take advantage. And not bad being off during the summer. So we'll see. Yeah, I'm going to get into that, you being off. We're going to get into that. Of all those places you mentioned, I've only been to Berlin. That's the only one I think you mentioned that I actually spent time in. You know, Berlin, I didn't get enough time.

I actually overslept, missed my initial flight. Yeah, okay. So I got an extra day in London. Berlin is great. It's massive now. And the last time I was there was, it would have been 1998, I guess, when I was doing a year abroad from Ryerson in London. That's cool, too.

The wall had come down not that much before, and it was a completely different city back then. Much more cohesive right now. You actually need to look to see where the wall used to be. Back then, you could tell. Yeah, I remember because I walked that whole city, and I remember, yeah, I had a map and there were like a couple of spots where you could actually see some wall. This is a couple of years back. Oh, yeah. It's you have to look for it now because it looks like one cohesive city.

Back then you had West Berlin, which looked like a regular European city. And you'd go across to where much of the wall still was. And it was a ghost town. There was hardly anyone there. There were still bullet holes in the walls. And, you know, it was a very, very different place, but a very dynamic place. It's a cool city.

I got a cool vibe from Berlin. It is very neat, very neat. So tell me, did your first radio job, was that 640? Oh, no. Oh, yeah, take me back, take me back. If you want to go way back. Let's go way back. Well, you're not that old.

I can't go too far back. 38. Yeah, see, I am older, yeah. Take me back. Take me back. If you want to go way back. Let's go way back. Well, you're not that old. I can't go too far back. 38. Yeah, see, I am older than you. Okay. And you've got three kids. I have three kids. You've been really busy. That's right.

No, I mean, going way back, I worked in radio since before I graduated from Ryerson, you know, doing promotions and, you know, little stuff here and there, operating a board very badly at CJRT, which was the jazz station. Of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course. So, yeah, initially, though, I guess right out of school in 99, I was working at, I was doing promotions actually at KISS FM, which was a country station at the time. CISS. Yes, that's right. And they had, just last episode was Mocha, who's at the New Kiss. Who I worked with back then. Okay, yeah, he's a great guy.

Very nice guy. And we were talking about, my mom had a Kiss mug. Yes, and I might have given it to her. Or Mocha did, perhaps. We actually joked, it's funny, the Mocha episode, we joked about how there must be rooms full of the mugs. Everybody had those Kiss mugs. They did.

That's funny. And you're the guy. I was one of the guys with mugs. Everybody had those Kiss mugs. They did. That's funny. And you're the guy. I was one of the guys with Mocha. He used to hand them out. And that's really what a coincidence because I saw you talking to him back when they did the switchover to Power 92 and then Kiss 92,

whatever they figured out. There was basically three or four of us that didn't get fired. They needed people to keep the lights on, basically. Right, right. It would have been Tarzan. Dan was one of the very few people who kept his job cool uh or actually i don't know if tarzan did kj actually because tarzan couldn't have been on the country he came in he came in later uh kj kept his job uh and basically it was mocha and uh mike who ended up

being pd i think it's at kiss uh and some are music director actually kiss uh and mocha and uh mike who ended up being pd i think it's at kiss and some are music director actually kiss uh and mocha so we were there i had my share my fill of playing backstreet boys and i say playing you know watching it go on the computer and talk taking requests and recording 12 year old listeners who incredible back then how inappropriate even back then uh very young teens could be uh on the phone when it came to talking to the uh the board operator whoever was answering the phone but i had my fill of that so i decided uh now we're part of the rogers family i'll i've always wanted to do news so i contacted stephanie smith at uh at 680 news right and and again and again and again, and again.

And finally, I sent her a voicemail saying, you know what, clearly you don't, because I did actually get to talk to her at one point. I might have met with her, but she just was not returning my calls. I was getting a little bit insane over the thing. So I left her this really nasty email saying, and she wouldn't be surprised by this at all.

She was reminded of it. Clearly, you don't want me to work there. So, bye bye she called back within seconds saying i'm so sorry i'm so that's how you get their attention uh and yeah so that was that was my big uh foray i guess was as a tape editor first at 680 then a terrible board operator awful i don't know how they didn't they didn't fire me they didn't can me but i was terrible uh but they i got better not much and ended up doing mornings there and it was hell that's when i learned not a morning person what time did you have to wake up for that gig uh about 4 4 30 and i was in a new relationship

at the time so you can imagine it's tough to be in a new relationship, trying to go to bed at 10 o'clock at night and then getting up at four o'clock. And it was an absolute mess. I only lasted a few months, I think, or maybe a year. And then I went to Stephanie and said, yeah, you got to fire me or move me because I can't do this anymore. It's funny because Mocha, speaking of Mocha, just last week mentioned he was offered that gig with Rozs at the new 92.5 and he turned it down initially because he said i'm not doing mornings anymore like he had been there done that and he hated it yeah i turned it down you know and i'm amazed i'm amazed that people can do it uh there are people out there who aren't morning people and i'm one of them and it's absolutely awful and i'll be honest for uh knowing that i had to set an alarm to meet you out here. What time was that alarm set for?

I had set it for 9. I woke up at 6 o'clock and couldn't get back to sleep. Because when I know that an alarm is set for me, and I'm thinking, what's he going to ask me? Is he going to ask me this? I'm asking you all the tough questions. Yeah, we're still early in.

But that was it. 680 News and then from, I started reporting on TV stuff and entertainment stuff and got to meet famous people. And that was fun. But then General Assignment was the big thing. And that got me into news. Who's the biggest person you met doing that? This is at 680, your interview. At 680?

Is this more like they have Rudy Blair doing now? Yeah, yeah. So I would do, it was Gloria Martin back then, actually. Gloria Martin. Rudy did a lot of the music stuff. Gloria Martinin did the tv i did a lot of tv stuff i basically just it was really cheap i used to sit there and watch the big thing was this new show called survivor yes that was on there they said you know could you watch this show and do like a review so i did and they loved it and basically all i did is as the british would say as i took the

piss out of the entire show when all the characters and all these people and made snide remarks. And that was my gig. That was the big thing that got me at a regular slot basically on the air in the morning. biggest back then it was great i got to meet people not knowing how big they would be right um and i guess oh man it's a tough one but the guys from scrubs that would have been pretty big at the time zach braff was was really nobody uh sarah chalk yeah uh was was in there too and she ended up she was becky she ended up being the replacement Becky on Roseanne. She was Becky number two. Exactly. I met half the cast of The West Wing, which was really cool. Great show. And it was funny because also they were reintroducing Degrassi. So it was the beginning of Degrassi, the next generation, not knowing. You know, and I was excited because I watched the original.

Yeah, me too. Kids of Degrassi. You know, I just had the principle of the new generation. the second so after radich leaves yeah isn't it no well snake this is after so there was radich this is how it goes radich leaves and they put in i don't know what the daphne i think her name is but it is melissa uh demarco so melissa demarco is here she was a principal and then it was snake snake right okay well there's some other guy who sucked or something and then snake anyways i haven't followed all the way along yeah you know what i got some catching up because i was in australia yeah and i've got to watch tv when i'm in different places i gotta

see what they're watching i gotta watch the news i gotta watch different shows and degrassi was on all the time the new generation it was uh so you met a young uh aubrey graham is that where this story goes i you know what i can can't remember. I think he was. I think he was in there. That would be the biggest. It would be. I guess I met Drake. I think I met Drake back then.

And who was the other one? I can't remember her name now. Very big. Ben Affleck's almost soon to be ex. Jennifer Garner. Jennifer Garner at the beginning of Alias. There you go. She was incredibly sweet.

And I recognized her from Dude, Where's My Car? Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. She was so embarrassed. I'm like, you were the girl in Dude, Where's My Car? So, you know, that was great. And actually one of the biggest, Dexter. Yeah.

Who, from Six Feet Under? Yep. Michael. Michael C. Hall. And I met Peter Krause both different times. I love, it's my second favorite show of all time. under yep and michael michael c hall and i met peter krause uh both fantastic by the way times i love it's my second favorite show of all time really number one sorry i'm pointing to a box on my desk but that's my favorite show of all time it's the wire ah the wires one six feet under is two love that show you know and getting the opportunity i got to meet peter krause before

it was even released before the show came out because he was on a sports night speaking of westwick which i knew nothing of amazing show but uh and peter c hall sorry michael c hall was a really really gracious guy really cool okay cool that so that's all happening at 680 yeah and do you go from 680 to 640 yes i got a call uh from their program director uh or would have been news director actually back then, and said, you know, are you interested? And I had just gone through negotiations. I almost was going to make a move to TV, but decided to stick in radio, mostly because, well, they got nicer to me at 680, to be honest. But then 640 came back again.

Yeah, not nice enough, apparently. Well, you know, I decided it was time for a change anyway. You can do the general assignment reporting. I knew all I wanted to do was reporting at that point anyway. I didn't want to be a, you know, an anchor newsreader or whatever, because I can't be stuck in one, in one place in one room. Uh, so I did it. I made the leap.

Uh, it went very, very poorly off the top. Um, I was on extended probation because i was just not getting along with the uh news director at all uh they it was i don't want to say anything bad about anybody but come on we need we need to hear this dirt this is the inside well inside peak they brought me in as i hate to say kind of their ace reporter and when i found out how much money the other reporters were making and where these other, quote unquote, reporters were coming from, it was clear they were trying to do something on a complete shoestring budget. And really didn't have a lot of respect, even though they butted these people up and brought them in. Didn't have a lot of respect for the staff or really the industry in itself you know they were expecting to be able to compete with with 1010 and with 680 with people who are right out of school not even with broadcasting degrees not even with journalism

degrees uh so it was a very rough start okay remind me this is uh so this is this was branded am 640 is that right i think think it was 640 Toronto at first. So is this post, this is what they became after Mojo? This is post Mojo, yes. Right. So there was still some of those elements around. You got Oakley's there. Oakley's there, Stafford's there.

Stafford, yeah. You know, on the talk side, they were fine. You know, they were good. That wasn't an issue, but they were building a newsroom from scratch. Gotcha. And that needed some evolution. And people came and people went, and eventually we ended up having what I would say was the most – and I'm not kidding when I say this, and I'm not kissing anyone's butt – but one of the most stellar newsrooms I've ever worked in. And I would say probably at that time, considering the resources we had,

and you look at where these people are now who I work with, I'm very proud of the people I work with at, and I don't want to forget anyone at 640, but Stephanie Smythe ended up coming back in. She got the news director job there. And Katie Simpson, which a lot of people will know. Yeah, she's in Ottawa now.

She's in Ottawa now. But her time at City Hall with the Rob Ford thing you couldn't miss her she was everywhere yelling out uh yeah she she sort of became uh she was the voice she was the voice that's right Shauna Hunt yeah who everyone knows now from her confronting that FWR So she, I believe, is at City. Tammy Sutherland, incredible, incredible talent. So again, I don't want to forget anyone. Steve Dankoff, Grant McDonald, who's now off in South Sudan,

teaching people there how to do radio. Just an unbelievable, stellar group of people. Cool. And I miss them. I'll be honest. I really do miss them. So the newsroom is six 40. Uh, that was fun. Cause you got to build something. We did. And we had so much fun. Jamie to wheel actually, I should mention, who's a great guy. He's back there after a lot of time in the Cayman islands. Uh, and Reggie Chikini, who's now moved down to, uh, to Washington, uhC. So, yeah, what a great time.

We had ridiculous amounts of fun. We did things in that newsroom we should never, ever have done, let alone put on tape. We have stocks and stocks of just satire and fun things that I did end up actually putting on my show when I got a regular gig as a talk show host on six 40. So how did that come to be? Uh, basically they needed someone, uh, when there wasn't a Leafs game. So I ended up being the, okay, we don't want to have programming from out West or wherever.

Uh, and I had been filling in during a show called the beat with Craig Brumellell uh while the news director at that time ross mcleod he was the co-host and then he moved on so they needed someone to go in there and so i would go head to head with craig brumell and uh wow that was that was fireworks on a regular basis uh wow i i haven't spoken to craig in ages but we had serious dust-ups. And they were real. You know, people would... Because, yeah, people assume, you know, everything's phony. Yeah, these people can't really be this angry at each other. There were full episodes, full days.

We would not go talking to each other if that red light was not on. Right. One of the biggest ones we had was with Joe Warmington from the Toronto Sun. Sure. They were planning a rally in Yonge-Dundas Square to support the troops. And at this point, at that point of that operation, you know, no one ever says they don't support the troops. That's ridiculous. Yeah.

I was very open about the fact that I don't know where I stand on this particular operation. I don't know what the end game is. Right. and about the fact that I don't know where I stand on this particular operation. I don't know what the end game is. Right. And there was this dust up on the air where Bro said, call him Bro, you don't support the troops?

You don't support the troops? I hate that line. Well. Because it's unfair. I don't support the operation does not equate. I don't support the troops. It's ludicrous. It's almost like somebody who's pro-choice. Like no one's pro-abortion.

You know what I mean? You hear a lot of that rhetoric on AM radio. Okay, yeah. AM radio, I think, is bad for your blood pressure, but we'll get to that. Yeah, it is. But yeah, so that's basically where I got my footing in talk, and then I ended up doing the John Downs show.

And it's good to get a show with your name in the title. It wasn't my idea. But that's what you got. You did that. That's good. That was Gordon Harris, who's program director there. And so this is the John Downs show on AM640. Yeah. And, you know, at first I thought, how am I going to do this? And it was a very, really intensive day because I'd come in and I'd report for four hours and then I'd have two or three hours to put a two-hour show together and i did have a producer but most of the content i was actually digging up myself because a lot of it was coming from whatever i reported on that day right uh so ended up ended up being a real

crash course in talk radio both producing putting it together uh and meanwhile i'm still doing a lot of my stuff mostly at city hall so it ended up being rather intensive but a great great experience no question cool uh so there's a regular reader of the blog and listener of this podcast liz who listens to a lot of am radio so whenever i have like an am radio because admittedly i only listen to a tiny bit of 590. Otherwise, I'm never on the AM dial. You know, some people are like that. Well, if you're not a driver, which I'm not. See, I don't have a commuter.

So that plays into it a lot. Or if some people are just talk radio junkies and that. Of course, of course. So I said I got John Downs coming in. So I got to ask you about this line she sent me. This is where now you can get nervous i'm just kidding yeah uh john downs is known for breaking the stafford show he was filling in for the vacationing mike stafford and some serious shit hit the fan what the hell is liz talking

about i don't know exactly oh i don't know exactly um no she's talking about when i was let go that could have something maybe she's making she's jumping to a conclusion um let's let's correct her right so okay that was the ongoing joke is that you broke the stafford show oh i see i see but clearly these were not it's not that i was trying to be mike stafford i'm not mike stafford uh you don't have that uh extensive simpsons trivia knowledge oh actually i do do you i do stafford's been on the show oh has he yeah yeah oh yeah yeah he's a great guy and uh we we got along fine but we have different perspectives on different things and he's mike stafford he's been

in the industry forever i'm i was this new guy coming in um and i you know i don't live the same life as a lot of our listeners. And so I have different perspectives. I have different positions on things. And I have spent a lot of time at City Hall. So I know a lot about the workings of the city. And when I say things, I'll get to this in a bit. Because I do have a question about this too coming up.

Okay. I had a conversation with Dan Rather last month. And he plays into this. He was actually brilliant. What's the frequency, yes exactly um so maybe that's what it stems from i'm not sure uh but i think it is just a coincidence that i was let go so okay so you were are we there yet in the chronology here okay so tell me what happened that you uh lost the Downs show on AM640? What the hell happened? I was never actually told.

And I thought that was kind of interesting. And I didn't have it in my contract, basically, that I couldn't be let go without cause. So I finished filling in for Mike one morning. It was in August. I can't remember exactly what year at this point probably about 10 years ago uh no not that far about six or seven and the program director assistant uh sorry assistant news director at the time said oh we gotta go talk to the uh program director i was thinking oh my god this is it you knew it was coming no i thought i was

getting my own show. Oh, okay. Because things had just evolved and ratings had gone up and we were doing really well against the competition. Gotcha. And I had really good performance reviews. So I sat down thinking, this is it. Yeah. You know, I'm getting my own show.

I'm going to have my face on the side of streetcars and things like that. Right. And within five seconds, I realized, no, you're being fired. Yeah. That's got to be tougher to enter the room expecting a positive and then to realize fairly quickly it was going the other way. Because a lot of people will, hey, can we see you in this room? Yeah. They smell it coming. And they start to brace themselves. Because there's usually signs. Things haven't been going well or that hadn't happened so you know here i am racking my brain as

to well what could this possibly be and you know meanwhile i'm devastated it's the first time i've ever been fired before and uh you know i'm getting text messages from people saying what happened what happened i don't have any answers for them right so you know i i'm clueless basically as to exactly what happened to write a passage for any radio person i don't think i've ever had i'm trying to think of i've i mean maybe roger ashby i'm trying to think of if i've ever had a if i've ever had a radio person in here who hadn't been fired well that's what they say right maybe i don't think he was fired you're not in the industry unless you've been fired that's for which i hate it i always hated that term i said well you know You're not in the industry unless you've been fired. That's for sure. Which I hated. I always hated that term.

I was like, well, you know, I've been in this for years. You're telling me just because I haven't been canned, I'm not really in the industry. But what I'll tell you is this. There seemed to be some revelations a little later. And it's when I first, well, actually a few months after I started at 1010. And I'll skip ahead a bit. And we were just prepping for our show at 1010 Ryan Doyle and I on friendly fire and we went in for the uh the crossover we call it with John Tory at the time because we're

about to come in John Tory's going to leave in a few minutes we go on the air talk about what we're going to be chatting about during the show and Tory says to me I got the funniest call from Doug Ford and he says to me what are got the funniest call from Doug Ford. And he says to me, what are we going to do about this Downs kid? And I'm thinking, oh my God, it's all coming together right now. Now, to this day, I don't have absolute confirmation on this, but just prior to me being let go at 640, Rob Ford on the air announced his candidacy for mayor. I was the only vocal opponent of Rob Ford at 640.

I was let go without being told why. And a couple months later, we've got in the midst of this campaign, we've got Doug Ford calling John Tory, tory the now mayor to say how are we going to get rid of this kid so yeah it doesn't surprise me i've always had a very tumultuous relationship especially with doug uh rob ford and i've always actually gotten along quite well although i've been incredibly critical of his policies and his behavior uh so i think So I think I know why things weren't going to work out at 640. I kind of wish I had been told why. But it was the power.

That was the power that Doug Ford, the Fords in general, wielded back then. So that is fascinating because if I recall, and I had a commute at this time, and I do remember 640 was like before he became mayor, it was like the before he became mayor it was like the rob ford propaganda machine well and this is the thing i was part of that i was

part of that for so long because i had known rob as a counselor for many years even when i was back at 680 and i knew if i wanted a good clip go to rob ford and he'll give you a good clip even if it's not necessarily newsworthy it's something that's going to make people chuckle he's always got an opinion he's one of those counselors who will grate on other counselors and you take his clip and you bring it to another counselor and they get angry he's just a catalyst even back then so i actually had this great relationship with him at the time where he always made himself available and all the things that people were critical of him for back then somewhat valid at the same time he was that guy back then who you could call as a constituent get him on the phone he would get things done for you and as a counselor

that's great uh but as a reporter he was gold absolute, always a good quote, great guy. So you have the two, you're right. Rob seems that type. And then Doug seems more Machiavellian. Yep. Yeah. I would say that's about fair. He's, he's kind of the muscle man in the situation. And Doug knows what he wants and he's going to get it. He's not going to let anyone stop him. And it was not long after, you know, kind of crazy thing.osh matlow who's city counselor now was the school trustee he used to come in on my show at 6 40 right weekly basis so he loved doing radio and really liked getting into want to do it more and more i moved to 10 10 had him on on a regular basis then he ended up getting his own show on sundays he was very critical of the fords and guess who took over his show the That's right. The Ford bros.

So he was furious to this day. Josh is furious. I understand why, because he was doing a great job. He was very impartial. He had people from both sides come on. But if you're the program director, Mike Bendixson at 1010, you've got to decide. Brand director, I think we say at this point. You couldn't not take that opportunity when the mayor says,

I want to come on your, your station for free, you know, and it was newsworthy. He, the mayor and his brother used to produce very newsworthy bits of information. And a lot of people thought it was entertaining,

aggravating as hell perhaps, but you couldn't turn that down. So, uh, we don't have any smoking gun here, but you can reasonably assert that Doug Ford had something to do with your sudden dismissal from 640. It's the only thing I know of.

You don't need cause for anyone, right? If you sever fairly, you don't actually need cause for anybody, do you? It depends what you consider fairly. Okay, but I'm not an employment lawyer, I should point out. As long as you sever fairly, right. If it's fairly severed, you don't ever have to have a reason. Right. You never have to disclose a reason.

No. And again, at 1010, I was in the same situation. So I'm sure we'll get to that. Okay, okay. So fascinating. Yeah, very interesting. So just a couple of notes on the 640. Is this where you, just to wrap up some loose ends here, is where you you won uh you won awards i want to say you won a prestigious

award i did and it's i it's embarrassing and yes it does go on my resume it is it was a very prestigious award it's a sam ross award uh which is for best commentary and i won it at both the uh local and the national level and i'd love to say it was about my musings over this situation in the Congo or whatever was going on at the time back then. But no, it was a little commentary around Christmastime about how dirty and sick and inappropriate Christmas carols are. And you know what? I just managed to make some of the people doing the judging laugh. In fact, I met one of them at the gala or presentation

who said that was it. I knew it when I heard it. So yes, I was very proud of that one. You know, there's other reporting I'm more proud of, I think, real actual reporting. But that, so that was in 07, you win the Sam Ross Award and then you've been recognized three times by the Radio and Television News Directors Association of Canada.

Yeah, I can't remember what the other ones were. But I believe one of them was for the reporting of the G20, which was really probably the biggest day of my reporting life. I was actually taken into custody there very briefly but just as the rain was starting at spadina and queen um it was a mess it was a very very obviously exhilarating exciting day to be a reporter but it was probably i'm saying that day the two days the saturday and the sunday but the sunday definitely and saturday a couple of the darkest days in toronto's history for many many reasons and okay so i wanted to make sure we get those are good resume things though you're right yeah those are like good resumes and i put sars up there as well um where i met and worked with so many fine reporters on a daily basis

getting the updates uh from the medical officer of health and, well, the chief health officer, I guess, for the province as well, and the health minister. It was just this daily, you know, tabs on a death rate going up. It was just very strange to be reporting on this kind of thing. And it became routine. It became regular. Strange time in the city. It was a very strange time,

you know, going right through the SARS stock, which was a good time. ACDC. Yes. The stones. Oh, the people forget about the stones.

They always talk about ACDC. They did it. They really did it. The stones were an afterthought at that show. Absolutely. Yeah. Okay, great.

Now, how long were you out of work between 640 and 1010? Not long. That's good. Yeah. I actually ended up hosting the Sunday show, Sundays with John Downs. I think it was called at 1010.

Within a few weeks, I think, of being let go, I called someone who worked there, used to work there. You know what? I had too much pride to call myself and so i had someone i knew who used to work there say you know this guy's available and might be interested in so i think it was mike at the time mike ben dixon said all right tell him to give me a call he's still i just just this week so uh and this is off topic but we'll get back but speaking of ben dixon who i've never met and maybe a wonderful man i have no idea except uh i was told this week that he was talking about a former 1010 reporter he didn't name her but a former employee who was uh complaining on a crappy podcast this is the quote he said okay

and he's referring to amber giro yeah who we'll talk about in a bit but uh and he's referring to my crappy podcast that's insulting at least if And he's referring to my crappy podcast. That's insulting. At least if you're going to call it a crappy podcast, drop the name. Come on, Ben Dixon. Yeah, you should get a little bit of a plug there. Yeah, anything. And he came up because the Humble and Fred show was airing.

So I'm friends of Humble and Fred. And they were airing at midnight on 1010. But they're actually, they got canceled on 1010 to bring in a new Art Bell. So I guess you can't compete. When it comes to midnight, Art Bell's the man, I guess. Apparently, yes. No question.

He rules the nighttime. So speaking of Ben Dixon, who I would be happy, I'd love to have Ben Dixon on, but he seems to not. You think so? Because he called my podcast crappy. So he's got to come on and explain himself. He should. No question. And i don't i don't pull any punches like i'm a fair guy i just amber had things to say i don't know no and i

thought that was a really compelling hour uh you know what i actually i've got to say i disagree with her at a certain a few points i don't want to go into it very much but a lot of the things she talked about in terms of the abuse and okay so yeah just to set the table here uh actually maybe we come back yeah okay we'll come back to amber geo for sure uh that's that's on my little list here uh okay so a 10 10 you were doing some a weekend gig can i ask you about 10 10 it seems to me like there's a difference like the weekday people are treated very different from the weekend people there's a lot of kind of transients in the weekend like the weekend it seems like uh if you're you got to do

it as a labor of love or for just for the PR because you can't do it for the coin. No, it's not. You know, it's basically to stay, keep your name in there. It's very much a testing ground for a lot of people, I think. And also people who may have been on the past who don't really want to dedicate the time they used to with a daily gig. No, it's very different. No question about it. Okay, so you were doing

no disrespect to people doing weekends on 10 10 no disrespect intended but you were doing weekends at first i was but you know what's funny is the before i even went on the air yeah on the weekend i was introduced to ryan doyle he was doing this show called Friendly Fire, and it was with Tarek Fattah at the time. And Tarek, you know, is a writer, a busy guy, and in and out. He couldn't do every show. It happened that that night I met him. He said, well, can you do the show tonight? Co-host with me.

And I thought, okay. The second I sat down with Ryan on the air air i knew he had something nice i knew what was going to happen and it was like we had known each other from my perspective for a long time we didn't pull punches uh at least i didn't you know i i don't know how ryan felt on our first broadcast but i thought wow this is really good. And we were getting compliments almost instantly. So I actually knew I kind of had a foot in the door, not just doing the Sundays, but also filling in when I had to with Ryan. So friendly fire with Ryan Doyle.

You were a good foil for Doyle. Yes, I was. You heard that a few times. Oh, you're not an original. Sorry. Damn it. I got a tweet from a guy named Gord. I hope Gord's listening.

Gord is a very Canadian name. There's a lot of famous Canadian Gords. That's probably the most common, I'd say. I can ring top of my head. Wayne. Wayne's my middle name. Oh, really? That's how Canadian I am.

Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so Wayne's a big one, but I think a lot of people my age are Wayne. No, not my age, but I guess the generation before me because their dads were big John Wayne fans. Ah. And they always were tough dads. So there's a lot of serial killers with the middle name Wayne.

Wayne Gacy, yeah. There's a bunch of them. All right. First name John, great. Yeah, and I think it means wagon maker for whatever that's worth. Ah. Okay, so where am I? I'm got off on the Wayne.

Gord. Gord, yeah. He wasn't, not a Wayne, but a Gord. And it's funny because Gordie Howe's record broken by wayne gretzky ah wow ask him that's you ask him why he thinks ryan is always saddled with a guest time to take off the training wheels interesting i feel really bad for ryan because he's been kind of in this suspended animation and you know a lot of people thought well what's what are they going to do who are they going to bring in and Ryan had held down the fort for so long uh and doing a very good job at it uh on his own with guests there was a lot of

questions what's going to happen you know where are the listeners going to go well guess what they came to Ryan and his guest and whoever he had on 10 10 the ratings i can say this now because i don't work there anymore uh have been spectacular i haven't seen the last ones but i think he's at least held from the last uh the last book they've been very very good uh you know that show is doing very well with a lot of demographics uh it's the best i think it's ever done quite frankly i might not as long as i've been there anyway cool so you know what's behind that i feel bad for ryan because yeah he is in this uh state of suspended animation you know and some people are thinking can he do the show

himself does he need to have someone else there it's always good to have two people in the in the afternoon i find but look, clearly he's demonstrated he can hold down the fort. How old's Ryan Doyle? We're almost exactly the same age. Yeah, I'm older and that much wiser by about a couple months. That's nothing.

Yeah. That's nothing. I know. Okay, so you do this, and then how do you end up on the night side? Tell me if I'm missing anything. Well, you are actually. Yeah, no, tell me. I guess missing anything well you are actually yeah i know telling i guess was uh this tragedy with uh with tarik fatah i don't know if i should call it a

tragedy anymore because he's doing so much better but uh he had been having back issues and this was just a couple months after i had started at 10 10 this is in i guess january and he went to the hospital and they ended up finding out it was cancer so he uh was going to be off for and god knows how long amount of time and i was called in to basically take the show over until i knew what to do uh but he was off for so long and he had so much work to do in terms of uh rehab and right physio and all that kind of stuff that uh the show kind of grew with the two of us and physio and all that kind of stuff that the show kind of grew with the two of us. And I felt bad about that with, with Tarek, but I just didn't, it didn't look like he was going to be able to do it on a daily basis. So it was tough, but you know, it worked out obviously well

for me. That being said, we're all very glad Tarek managed to get around. Sure, of course. Yeah. Cool. So this is, uh, so the, so the friendly fire of Ryan Doyle and between, so you do friendly file fire. That's harder to say than it should be friendly fire with Ryan Doyle. And you do that and then you end up at the night side and you do anything between there. I was,

uh, basically by myself because Ryan, once John was moved off, uh, because he was, John Tory was campaigning, right? Uh,

Ryan went in and did this whole holding pattern thing where he had guests and uh and then i'm sitting there by myself in the evenings thinking it's getting lonely up here right uh and so they brought in different people uh you know just like they did with ryan but more on a weekly basis where i'd have someone uh come in and uh you know people a lot of people are on the air now, uh, Ed Keenan, uh, yeah, he's good. David Eddy from the Globe and Mail. Uh, we had lots of people coming in and, and basically trying it out and seeing how they liked it. And I ended up with Barb DiGiulio, who was a great pleasure to work with over the last summer, I guess it was, when we did work together. Uh, and I was asked, you know, how would you feel about

if she's taken in the position? I thought'd be great and you know not bad having a female voice on the air especially on the talk side which may have ended up to my demise i don't know well hey do it there so yeah let's get there firstly if uh john tory had lost were they gonna was he coming back to 10 1010? I think, you know, initially my understanding was that no. Once he's going out for it, he's never coming back. But it went on for so long that I have a feeling, I can't confirm that, I have a feeling the position would have been made available to him if he wanted to keep it. I asked, so when the campaign started, I asked Jim so when this uh when the uh campaign started i asked jim richards on this show

i asked jim richards this very question and he felt like they were just keeping the seat warm and then in the event should he lose he would he would pop right back but yeah i think that was speculation that was the initial thinking and then after that i have a feeling they were no no he's leaving uh but yeah basically they wanted to allow for any eventuality. Now, Barb DiGiulio. So Barb DiGiulio was on episode 79. So if anybody wants to hear my chat with Barb, look up episode 79. Barb, I know quite well because I mentioned 590.

I used to listen to a lot 590 and Barb DiGiulio was there forever. And speaking of gourds, there was a Gord Stelic. There's a lot of all these Canadian gourds. Okay. So yeah, Barb to Julio and you were doing the Nightside weekends 7 to 10. And Barb was, Barb is still there. So what the heck happened here? Is it because they already had a John?

What happened here? You know, I'm not sure. I honestly don't know. Things were, again, going well. We were doing quite well, I think, as far as ratings go. The show was going quite well. Who knows? Whenever one of the Dark Overlords take over, in this case, Belle,

I was warned by people who were even at Bell watch out, uh, because anything can happen. You never know with this business again, cause it was a situation where I had a feeling when I got the call, Oh, come with me, that things were not going to go well. Again, I was a little surprised because things had been going well at the station. Ratings were good. Barb and I got along great. little surprised because things had been going well at the station ratings were good barb and i got along great um i'd like to think the theory is that bell might have decided you've got a whole bunch of other people doing shows by themselves why the heck do you need two people doing an evening show and uh so few female voices on the air as it was, I could see myself being a potential target.

Who knows? There may be other stuff. And I honestly can't say I would know of anything out there that would have led to my demise. Because again, a pretty good track record. There were not flawless. There were a few issues that occurred. Don't know whether or not they would have played into it.

But it's one of those, it's the business. It's the business. You just never know what's going to happen and how it's going to shake out. And I'll be honest, I wasn't devastated. I enjoyed doing the show with Barb, no question. But we weren't doing as much newsy stuff and that was kind of my my background we were doing a lot more stuff that was lighter uh we were definitely it's definitely a lot lighter yeah yeah and i didn't mind that uh at the same time it

it wasn't going to get as fiery it wasn't going to get as as i I would say, maybe as meaningful. You need to eat more meat in your diet. Yeah. And you know what, at the same time, I think we did have some great conversations. We did some pretty heavy stuff. We did cover heavy things. Um, but it wasn't necessarily the thing I was going to, uh, want to keep doing for the rest of my life. And at that point I had started at what was clearly going to be, um, a skyrocketing venture, a place called sun news network. Right. And we'll get to that in a bit. If you want, we'll get there. I got it. Cause, uh, but, uh, you know, I was thinking, okay, you know, my radio time's up right now. I'm doing the TV thing. I'm doing a lot of stuff on the TV side

and I'm really actually liking it. So I'll just bow out here and say, okay, goodbye, everybody. And you mentioned, you know, if they were going to make a decision of the two of you, they might keep Barb, it's speculative, but they might keep Barb because she's a female. Is she the only weekday female host that 1010's got? Yes, I think so. Just optics alone. Not that that stopped anyone before, I suppose. No, you know, I think a lot of it has to do with business.

That's the way it is. They consider who's listening, even though they want to skew more female. And they say they do. You can tell, especially on the other stations, they're going after that male $35.55. And that's where they believe a lot of the money is. But things can change, and they are changing. Do you think you're hurt by the fact that, for better or worse, you've been branded a, and I'm using air quotes here, but a lefty? Yeah, you know, and that I don't think should make a difference.

Maybe I've managed to tick off enough people that it's had an impact, perhaps. But really, the only thing that any program director worth their salt really should care about, and this, again, what kind of surprises me about some of the decisions made about me in the past, is is it compelling content? Are people interested? And generally, the ratings would reflect that. So who knows? I said a lot of things and I continue to believe a lot of things that are incredibly unpopular with people who live in the 905 who commute. I said on the air that, you know, the 905, the suburbs are where you, sorry, the city is where you come to live. The 905 is where you go to die. And look, I've done a lot of traveling over the last few months. And one of the reasons I love doing it is to get that perspective on how people do things in other cities and how well is it working. And it's just a simple matter of fact that cities where people live and grow and spend their time, preferably walking or biking or whatever, those are the ones that thrive. The ones that don't set themselves up in that way,

they die. And they're not places that people want to visit, quite frankly. So, you know, I stand by my reasoning. I stand by my quote-unquote politics. I just like to think of it as rationale. I, okay, some have called me a lefty, believe it or not.

And I don't understand it, except I ask, you know, why you call me a lefty, and it comes down to silly things. You've just said you bike everywhere. Of course that makes you a lefty, believe it or not. And I don't understand it except I ask, you know, why you call me a lefty and it comes down to silly things. You just said you bike everywhere. Of course that makes you a commie pinko lefty. I played hockey for a very conservative, believe it or not, this team was very conservative. A bunch of Rob Ford lovers.

And I bike. I do. I bike every day. With your bag on your back? I sometimes have a bag on my back. Wow. And I bike. If I can bike there, I bike every day. With your, with your bag on your back. I sometimes have a bag on my back and I bike. I, if I can bike there, I will bike there. Like I was just at Nathan Phillips square the other day. And of course I'm going to bike there and I'll bike if I could bike there. How long does it take you to get to Nathan Phillips square? Uh, that's about, uh, 45 minutes, I think. So I, I, I love the waterfront trail. Like I'm on it right now

and I'll take it east or west. Yeah. And I'll take it to Strawn and then I'll go up Strawn to get to something like, then there's wonderful stuff going on in Richmond and Adelaide. Exactly. And that, you know, Nathan Phillips score is very easy to get to.

It's very slick. So I bike a lot and you know, I, I don't agree with a lot of Rob Ford's policies and all the, and it turns out, you know, because you're pro life and you're not religious and there's almost like a life report pro-choice i'm sorry i had to i had to double check it's a good thing you stepped in there because uh someone's gonna edit that clip and it's gonna

pro-choice yeah that was an interesting slip there my point the point is it seems almost to me like there's some checklist somewhere and they put like a x on what side you're on and then they label you a righty or lefty based on your answers well i think we could thank certain genres of television and radio for that uh you know it's a lot easier to draw yourself a stereotype and find someone who you think fits in that box so you can brand them the enemy and that's something coordination was very effective at doing. Absolutely. 100%. And as just a radio listener who's never worked in radio,

but a guy who listens to radio, I avoid 640 and 1010 primarily because it seems like, I call it angry white man radio, but it seems very- Not all the time. Most of the time. 640 very often.

Most of the time. It feels very, I want to say conservative, I want to say small C conservative or whatever, just it doesn't seem very enlightened and progressive most of the time i think 10 10 is a lot more progressive in that way than they may be trying to 40 was not appealing to people like you or me i mean there's no question that's why maybe guys i can see them with their fists on the dashboard i mean i when i was there i a call. When I was filling in for Mike Stafford. When you were breaking a show?

When I was breaking a show, I got a call from someone in... Oh, God. I feel bad. Not Alistair. Oh, I'll remember. Keswick. It was Keswick. They like to call it Georgina now because Keswick has a bad connotation.

Well, exactly. And there's a reason for that. they like to call it georgina now because uh keswick has a bad connotation well exactly and there's a reason for that but i got a call from a listener uh who said everyone in keswick hates you everyone everyone in keswick hates you and you know and and you're all gay that's a big one i've noticed well you and jack and olivia you're all gay. And I thought, like, like buggerers? Is that, yeah, you're all buggerers. So, you know, I had, people were laughing at the station behind the glass. They were laughing and I was fuming just because this guy was filled with such vitriol and made it on the air and was spreading this and directing it right at me.

You know, and while everyone laughed it off, I went home. That was a Friday. I went home and you could talk to my girlfriend about this i spent that entire weekend stewing over this yeah yeah yeah thinking and she's thinking this guy from keswick yeah why why are you letting this get to you i hear this very often from people you know and that day that monday i went into filling for stafford again and i said you know i'll be honest i was thinking about this and it got on my nerves and everyone's wondering got it got on my nerves and the phone rang and it was dale from keswick saying john i'm sorry you're a good guy i was angry i lost my temper and i i'm sure you're a

great guy and you've got a girlfriend i'm sure she's great too and he called and apologized because i kind of let that that part of my humanity out i let them you know i let them see this is actually bothering me uh and there's so much of that on the air um you hear it so often and it is promoted and it is almost farmed on talk radio to the point where it's so toxic and not at all enlightened or progressive that I was actually glad to get away because it is damaging. And I don't care who you are. If you are a host in AM radio, you've gotten the email, you've gotten the texts, you've seen the stuff on the boards. mail you've gotten the texts you've seen the stuff on the boards and while you don't think it's true and you pretend oh i've got a thick skin it bothers you just to know those people are out there and they actually believe that agree although that dale and keswick just apologized

because he heard he had a girlfriend and realized you were heterosexual oh maybe perhaps and maybe he saw a picture on the internet you're a white guy and he felt what is a white straight guy i'm okay okay so yeah if i was a terrorist, perhaps. There are a lot of terrorists out there, apparently, too. Yeah, that kind of ignorance really bothers me, especially the homophobia. People are like, what do you care what that idiot thinks?

That's really dropped off a lot. I'll say it doesn't play well anymore. Just because people... Maybe it doesn't play well in the 416. I suspect it's still playing okay in 905. If it was... Definitely 705.

You'd hear a lot more about it. The most I ever heard, you know, is, well, why don't we have white pride? Or not white pride, straight pride. You know, why do they have to let everyone know about it? Just things like that, which is way less inflammatory than you get. So they've softened.

I think they have quite a bit. Okay, good to hear. Good to hear. Hey, I just realized we're going long. Do we have a deadline? No. Okay. Where do I have to be?

We'll get to that soon. Okay, really quickly. So did you listen to the episode with Amber Jiro? I did. Cool. That's a good start. That's a good start. So Amber and I connected because she decided she didn't want to hold her tongue any longer, basically.

And I said, well, come on and we'll talk about it because I have people on to talk about radio and television and things. So she came on. And in a nutshell, she had big concerns a lack of diversity on 10 she we were speaking specifically about am talk radio anywhere although i cdc is okay yes i'd like to take them out dated there so that's right uh i had matt galloway on recently and not a pure white guy not a pure white guy not a pure white guy um i won't even delve into that one he's half i asked him how he identifies if he identifies as a black man. He identifies as a half black, half white.

Oh, okay. So you meant literally. Yeah, I mean that literally. Amber Giro, who is a black woman, felt she was discriminated against because of the color of her skin. This is her belief, her words. And she feels like we don't reflect the Toronto at all. 1010 and 640 are not reflective of toronto at all in terms of their week day hosts you know i can't deny that i don't think that's uh

i i don't think that's not true you know look at it it's look how white it is uh and look how male it is and i think that's unfortunate considering this is a very diverse city and what i find really interesting is i got many many calls from muhammad's and uh you know name your stereotypical ethnic name they're listening sanjay wherever uh think about think about where a lot of these people live when they come to canada a lot of them are coming because they want to spread out they want some space because wherever they came from, they didn't have it. So if they've got enough cash, they're going to the suburbs and they're listening to talk radio. So you'd think it would be a little more reflective of the community. I don't think she's wrong at all.

You know, is there, should there be more diversity? Does there need to be more diversity? It depends how you feel about free market economics. And this is pretty much what it comes down to. These companies are investing in the talent that they think is going to make the money. If it's not reflective of the city of Toronto, it's maybe not their top priority, maybe not their top concern, but look what TV has done. It is incredibly, and trust me, it's obviously a little more difficult to get away with being so white on TV. But man, you look at, and these are talented people. It's not like they're bringing in tokens who can't do the job. These are talented people.

So I think they could take an example from television. One of the things, though, I that amber said were that i had to take issue with was and you know i can't i'm not going to say she is or isn't being discriminated against uh because i don't i don't share her experience i don't live that experience but i have lived the experience as being you know a lowly reporter at one time and she described treatment certain types of treatment that she thought was not fair, that would not fly worst industries for treatment that I can imagine, especially in what you consider such a professional environment. News directors, I'm not going to name names or anything like that,

but I've seen examples of some news directors, program directors, pushing and pushing and pushing people to insane limits in terms of what they can get away with. So working conditions, pay, minimal, minimal pay, overtime, things like that. And that happened to me. It did happen to me. And you're not a black woman. I'm not a black woman. And you know what?

At a certain point in my career, which was very early on, I said, I'm not going to work for free. And to this day, you will meet people who will call me a quote-unquote diva use that term back then because you won't work for because i said i would not work for free and yes i had certain stipulations as to what i wanted my my project or my piece to be i had standards uh so i did get a reputation as a quote-unquote diva and i think it was the best thing i ever did was i had to push back if i was terrible at my job it wouldn't be very good it wouldn't be a smart idea but man you push certain people face to face go head to

head with them and there's one person in particular who i'm talking about. She knows who she is. And if they respect you enough, you'll be fine. And in fact, you'll make some headway. But you've got to be confident enough in your abilities and the people you're dealing with. But don't let yourself get walked all over. So many people have. And they continue to do it. I only met Amber that one time. That was the first time I met her.

And what I thought was, I felt at the time as she was speaking two things, I felt firstly, I felt she was being awfully courageous. It just felt like it would be much easier to sit on that and not, you know, ruffle any feathers. And, and I felt it was very, you know, I want to use the term ballsy, but that's probably a sexist term now, but it was, you know, you can still say it. She had big gonads to do what she did. But secondly, I felt fear for her. I felt like saying those things in public and she knew it was being recorded and would be in public

would hurt her chances at working in this very small industry. Like there's only a few companies that own most of the stations. It just seems like it felt dangerous to me. Well, there's a lot of things. Which goes with lot of which goes with courage sure but there are a lot of things that that could put you at risk of not being re-employed and i think the fact that we are dealing with very few companies as you say is probably the biggest so i don't know that kind of

thing i don't think it's going to stick around i don't think it's going to hurt her. In fact, it's a display of character. And that is something that is really in great need in this industry and in media in general. So, you know, and again, you're sharing your perspective. It's not like she was going on and necessarily branding certain people racist. She was sharing her perspective. And she was right in terms of the diversity or lack of diversity yeah it's not hard to prove that one no look it's white it was funny it wasn't just white because i went through it it wasn't just white it was like british isles ireland like it's very specific part of europe okay uh you know these are names

like macarthur and oakley and stafford like it's like you know i was just in dublin like it's just you know they're all from thereabouts it's and that's that's pretty much the way it works you know so when we go saying ryan doyle too might as well be that's a pretty irish name oh he's a proud irish boy yes no question about it okay so i did that was very curious since you'd be a natural person to ask for some reflection on the the ambergero claims uh it sounds like, yeah, so you agree with me, it was ballsy of her and, you know, yeah, neither of us could speak to how she was discriminated against. That's a tough one. If you're a black woman in the city of Toronto, you're going to feel more discrimination. You are going to be a victim of

discrimination more often than a white man like me. So whether or not you can tell or accurately figure out what the source of that behavior is that's obviously very tough to do so you know she might feel that she wasn't given the same opportunity and you know what she wasn't given the same opportunity if she wanted to have a talk show she's a woman and her demographic i mean again we've got desmond cole who's doing very well even at 10 10 uh but he's a man and and they still have on weekends they still we previously spoke about that like it feels like when you're ready for prime time it's a weekday but you know it could get really dicey if you start going into, you know, why or would they consider putting him into the week?

Look, he's a guy who deals very often with other issues, but very often with black issues and injustices within the black community or from authority onto the black community. That's got to be able to play well, and that's got to be enough to bring in the listeners. That's what Bell cares about. That's what Rogers cares about. So let's be honest who we're dealing with. Cool. A quick, another quick 10,

10, since I have an insider here, that Jack Berkowitz show was that, tell me the truth. Tell me the truth. This is paid programming, right? Like,

was that a legit? No, I think it was legit. That was legit. I believe is legit. you know what? And he would, so he'd come in for his crossover.

Yeah. Before his show with me. And there were a couple of times where I just had to. He loves getting into it, but I had to take issue or challenge him on something he was doing on the show. And I stayed behind and did his show with him because I couldn't allow him to go on the air and spew whatever he was about to spew. No, it's real. But he was spending a lot of money advertising he was a station so it doesn't mean i don't think uh and knowing mike ben dixon i don't think mike would uh allow something to go on the air that he didn't think would end up being good compelling programming so maybe paid

program is the wrong term uh maybe it was a free appearance but knowing of course in the other the other side of the room that cash was coming in from him to advertise yeah and again you know you could you can think well this seems fishy or you know it doesn't seem quite right because he was an advertiser that's why he you know was already uh a personality to Mike Ben Dixon. And I believe he'd probably done other roundtables and things like that as well in the past. So when it comes down to it, the brand manager, brand director

is going to put on the air what they believe to be compelling. It does not, and I'm saying, I guess I could say Mike Ben Dixon knowing him, he's not going to do it because this guy's just a, an advertiser. Okay. Good to hear.

Cause the, the opt, there was, it didn't pass the smell test, but I don't know. We're dealing with, we're dealing with private radio. So again,

though, when people get suspicious, is it compelling radio? A lot of people would say, well, okay, it's compelling, but think about the, the things he, but think about the things he's

spewing, the things he's saying, the hate he's breeding, whatever they might say. And that's a fair argument, but that's not the job necessarily. The job is to maintain the standards, stick to the broadcast standards and put out compelling radio. On the news side, completely different. So let's remember what we're dealing with here. Yeah, fair enough, fair enough. You were, this is kind of when your name, I became aware of you mainly, when you were arrested. Oh yes. I know that this is a show unto itself, but we'll try to keep this one brief, but you were taking pictures and tell, can you tell me as succinctly as possible what you were doing and what happened to you when you were spending thatly as possible what you were doing and what happened to you, uh, when you were spending that night in jail?

I was doing what I would do no matter what, uh, which is, you know, anytime you're working for a radio station, AM radio station in a capacity as a reporter, as a host, as someone in sales, you know, whatever, uh, I, I, I'm not going to speak for the people behind the scenes, but very often I've dealt with people who are behind the scenes who play an active role in gathering news and reporting it to their newsroom. Right. So anytime I have seen news break or something that may be worthwhile, I stopped, I'd be in the middle of dinner at home after my show at nine 30 or 10 o'clock at night. And I'd hear sirens outside and they'd go and they'd go. And I'm thinking something's going on and I'm out there calling it in so this was no different and and yes I've

done so at all times of the day usually when I'm awake uh but I happen to be coming back from a friend's house with my girlfriend on the streetcar and yeah we had a night out we had dinner had drinks went to my buddy's place had drinks i was i was drunk i would say i was not fall down or anything like that i was uh sober enough to hop out i saw someone on the street and ems i didn't know if it was a shooting this is a king west so god knows what happens in the club district at that time right so i took from the sidewalk i was taking a couple pictures of you know the scene and there was blood on on the it was kind of gory and this paramedic thought i was i guess he was a firefighter technically not in

all with all the equipment but uh he was there as kind of ems param uh firefighter right he came up to me took issue with me taking pictures interesting and i because it's your right it's my right to take pictures i wasn't interfering with the scene i know how to do this i mean it is part of my job um and so i i said look i'm not interfering and he said you know what get get going get lost i said i'm actually with the media he didn't seem to care and said you want me to call the cops over and i thought okay fine i'll tell them right so i'm meanwhile i put my phone up to take another picture. He swaps the phone out of my hand. It hits the ground. The firefighter guy.

The firefighter. Right. Hits the ground. I go to pick it up. As I hear him, and I was like, I said to him, I said, what the hell are you doing? I go to pick it up. I hear him say, police this guy. And before I can even raise my head from picking up my phone, because I hadn't even got to it yet, I'm tackled by somebody.

I wasn't even sure who at that point right uh and i kind of knew what was happening but put my hands behind my back yeah yeah uh and i was put into a police car and i was told i was being arrested so that was very bizarre i happened to see an officer on the scene who i recognized yeah uh and got his attention and he said what are you doing here? I said, I have no idea. I was taking pictures and now they've arrested me. He goes, finds out what's going on and comes back and says, they're saying you assaulted the firefighter.

Oh, wow. And my jaw drops because I kind of chuckled. I thought, well, that's ridiculous. Well, you didn't lay a finger on the firefighter. I didn't lay a finger on the firefighter. That's a key detail. And he knows me as well and knows I'm not the type of person who's going to be assaulting a firefighter we're about the same size actually yeah and i'm not assaulting any firefighters

no i don't think it would be a good idea but they're you know the firefighters are all talking to each other to a couple of cops and it's going on for a long time eventually they decide okay maybe he didn't uh assault but either way we're not going to press charges they decide i'm in the cop car at this point we're going to take you in you know let you uh sober up but they didn't actually say at that point they weren't going to charge me i was in the interview room at the police station showing them pictures that this is actually i had actually been taking these pictures yeah and that's when they decide all right we're just going to uh have you spend the night wow um so at that point i thought okay there are worse things that could happen but man i've got a story i've got a great story here uh and in the end they tried to uh they

issued me a ticket i spent the night in jail there was a huge huge mess up where they released someone thinking it was me gave them my stuff wow, told my girlfriend who had come to get me that I had left even though I was still in the cell. They didn't know that. She went on this wild goose chase. It was a complete mess. But in the end, I decided I was going to fight the ticket. I'm not going to tell the story.

What was the ticket for exactly? I think it was public intoxication, being drunk in a public place. I believe that's what it was, but it was the principle. It wasn't the cost. I think it was $ intoxication, being drunk in a public place. I believe that's what it was, but it wasn't the principle. It wasn't the cost. I think it was $60 or something like that. So I fought it.

I won. I came out with the story. And as a result of that, we got the notes. My lawyer got the notes from the firefighter, from the police on the scene who took notes from the firefighters. We got video evidence of me in the police car me at the booking hall all this stuff uh and all the things that the firefighter said uh well so many of the things they said were just complete and utter lies they they made up this story man uh so i went on the air and told the story and meanwhile the spokesperson for the toronto police

service said i was too drunk i didn't know what I was talking about. And I met with him before this. And he said, what are you going to do? What are you going to do? You think people are going to believe you? after I was cleared. Uh, so in the end, it got a lot of attention. There's no question. And that was kind of in the midst and we're still having this, this conversation about body cameras. And even though my situation involved firefighters, uh, for the most part, uh, but I knew at that point, cause I had reported on so many, so many stories where, uh, of police wrongdoing, I've worked with officers or former officers who i know have been accused of it and i believe they were probably guilty of it um people believe that if they're the good person if they're the good guy in the situation that the cops won't won't hurt them well guess what there's a lot of opportunity for people to see things not going

their way especially police officers people in authority authority. So, uh, I know, I know how it works now. A lot more, a lot of people, I think that brought a lot, brought to a lot of people's attention. Yeah, for sure.

That's, and I remember this story when it came out, it was, yeah, just fascinating. and you mentioned earlier in this, uh, episode that you had some sun TV involvement.

Yes. So, uh, and I actually watched recently rewatched you on Sun TV talking about this arrest and the overnight in jail and everything. So what were you doing at Sun TV? And then I I need to know if you were involved with this rebel media, which I guess is a reason for the ashes. Yeah. Well, as far as Sun goes, Ryan Doyle had done tons of stuff. He he tried really hard. He wanted to get in. He he saw an opportunity there so he did a lot of um contributing type stuff round tables and then guest hosting he said you really should come

in because they like the perspective of different people even though you know there it was completely they needed a token left exactly and they had they had a few they had several actually okay good uh and as soon as you know i made myself available i was in there on a regular basis um you know and i was kind of the token lefty sometimes i didn't always take that position because i didn't believe it but it went really well i really enjoyed having these conversations and they were having me in on a regular basis it was it was great and even though a lot of people believe, and it did have that kind of Mickey mouse quality production values weren't great. They were

really open to different perspectives. And that I really liked, even though, you know, you got people like Ezra taking complete right. I'm beyond right positions on certain things. They didn't disrespect someone with a different position, especially on the left. And then it got to the point where they said, would you a guest host and i'm thinking are you kidding me first of all i think i'm going to be a lightning rod for people but whatever and they let me do it they trained me and i did it and everyone was incredibly supportive um i loved it and you know what quite frankly it had been a while since i'd done something something new that i thought i can actually do this i I'm good at this. Uh, and that's why when

I lost my job at 1010, I had just been doing more and more work at sun. I knew there was a possibility things could go the wrong way at sun, but I thought, well, it's okay. I think my future could be here. So that's why it was devastating just a couple weeks later when sun shut down not just for myself sure but to see all these people uh who had worked on something that started small and you know they just couldn't get it going but there was so much potential especially because we had a couple suitors in mind that could have really really turned things around we had enough talent we had you, the people who had started behind the scenes and really gotten good at their job in terms of the switchers

and the audio people and all that kind of stuff. They had something with so much potential and it all just completely fell through. And I know a lot of people out there, especially lefties, said, well, it's all, it's your fault. You know, you invested your time and your efforts in a terrible, terrible venture. Well, people were calling it Fox News North for a while. Well, and it kind of wanted to be that. and your efforts in a terrible, terrible venture.

Well, people were calling it Fox News North for a while. Well, and it kind of wanted to be that. I don't think there's much of a question about that. But I thought it was just about to turn a corner into something a little more legit, I suppose. You'd have to rebrand, I think. But yeah, I hear you. Yeah, perhaps. I think if there had been new owners,

they would have done that. Right. So that was too bad. That was a real. That's too bad. But then and I only know a little about this. I know that Rebel Media was from the ashes, I guess. Is it Ezra?

It is Ezra. OK, completely. Do you have any involvement in this? I did. I did one one debate, basically. It was all they've they invested you know a bit of cash actually buying some cameras and equipment all this kind of stuff and we shot upstairs that betty's i didn't know betty's on king street had an upstairs uh but you know we had a myself a conversation one of the

former contributors marissa semkew from sun uh and then one of the parents who was adamantly opposed to the new sex ed curriculum came in and we debated back and forth and it looked pretty slick. It looked pretty good. I wasn't asked back. I'm not sure if I would have gone back anyway. Okay, so you just did one guest appearance. What the hell? Why not?

You were as affiliated with Rebel Media as you are with Toronto Mic'd. I guess so. I guess so. I think you're a little further to the left maybe yeah maybe just a bit uh so tell me I want to wrap up with uh like an update on job search like so right now uh I know you've been traveling and then you know so is it you're just tell me you tell me yeah I you know what my uh most of my time since being let go even before that has been uh away from Toronto I have been doing a lot of

traveling uh and i'm doing some writing based on the traveling i don't know how many how much in the way of details i can i supposed to give but i thought you got to give it all well i've got a new i've got a new position uh i'll be teaching radio in the fall okay uh so that that's kind of exciting that is so fun uh it looks like it'll be a great opportunity. So, so there's that, uh, I do miss radio a bit. I miss broadcast. I miss conversations. I miss sitting down with people and having conversations about stuff that matters.

Um, but you know what? It's limited out there. That's, it's kind of the sad reality. I've been thinking, you know, what is it I'd want to do anyway? And I, I don't really see it out there right now yeah so that's fine i've uh hopefully just keep bouncing around and having good conversations with people who do conversations well so we talked about how few companies seem to own things around here but did you burn have you burnt bridges with chorus or is that like no you know what i never would burn bridges with anyone as far as I know.

Bad idea. Uh, my old boss at, uh, at, uh, six 80 said the bridges were singed. And that was just because I left and I really ticked off the program director

because he couldn't believe I left six 80 to go to six 40. He just couldn't, he was so insulted by that, but there was nothing. I, I didn't, you know, give them middle finger and say,

so long, suckas. Right, right, right. There was none of that. But that's interesting though because 680 is Rogers, 640 is Chorus, and 1010 is Bell. So is it,

it's possible you just, so those are the big three. Like CBC is just cutting. Exactly. Right. And, you know, there's very little Where else can you go?

Well, exactly. I mean, and you know what? There's the FM side. I don't know what's available on that side. They probably don't want to see it. They don't talk much up there. No, not very much. They don't.

Just CBC. It's too bad. It's very limited. Very limited. So, you know, and there's a lot of stuff is evolving into television as well. We'll see. But is any part of you fearful because of your, not that the industry is dying, but just that the opportunities are less and less?

Yeah, for sure. Because it almost seems like what you want to do, you have to do yourself, but it's not going to be very lucrative, at least not at first. Not necessarily, you know, and I learned after 640, I'm never going to rely on a single employer ever again in the rest of my life. Diversify. Yeah, you've really got to have a lot of fingers and a lot of pies or whatever it is they say. Right, yeah, smart. And that's why I love the idea of doing freelance.

I'm doing the writing. It's fun, it's exciting. And look, I get to travel places for free very often. Actually, that's amazing, yeah. It's amazing. It's incredible. And I'll actually be headed to London in a couple of weeks or three weeks or so again. So it's a pretty sweet deal and get to meet a lot of cool people.

And hopefully radio is not gone forever. It was a pleasure to meet you. And I enjoyed this convo. I hope you had a good time. We're like at about an hour 15 or so. I'm worried your computer won't be able to hold this convo. I hope you had a good time. We're like at about an hour 15 or so. I'm worried your computer won't be able to hold this entire conversation.

Listen, Jeff Merrick almost did two hours. Strombo, they came separately, but both almost hit two hours. Wow. And Merrick, I was playing him off with this

and he like blew me off and he went another like 30, 40 minutes. We've got a lot to say apparently. Both great guys. I haven't talked to Jeff in ages. Yeah yeah yeah yeah you said it though both great guys yeah completely they're on my list of guys that you're happy to have a coffee with anytime just yeah wonderful guy absolutely yeah i used to work with jeff at uh 640s yeah yeah that's crazy small world

see how small this radio world is it is and too small bad things can come from it as well so well here's hope no here's hoping you got a pay you got already a couple but you're gonna have more paid gigs in your immediate future his quality should cream always rises as they say all right i'll take the cream take the cream and that brings us to the end of our 129th show you You can follow me on Twitter at Toronto Mike and John is at Downs Dispatch. Follow John Downs. See you all next week. won't be today and your smile is fine and it's just like mine and it won't go away cause everything is

rosy and green you've been under my skin