Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Jon Pole: Toronto Mike'd #1429

Episode Date: February 14, 2024

In this 1429th episode of Toronto Mike'd, Mike chats with Jon Pole about Bell's deep cuts to their radio empire, selling 45 stations in smaller markets, including four to Jon's My Broadcasting Corporation. Is radio still a viable business? Toronto Mike'd is proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, Ridley Funeral Home, The Advantaged Investor podcast from Raymond James Canada and Electronic Products Recycling Association. If you would like to support the show, we do have partner opportunities available. Please email Toronto Mike at [e-mail]

Welcome to episode 1429 of Toronto Mic'd. Proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery. A fiercely independent craft brewery who believes in supporting communities, good times and brewing amazing beer. Order online for free local home delivery in the GTA. Palma Pasta. Enjoy the taste of fresh, homemade Italian pasta and entrees from Palma Pasta in Mississauga and Oakville. RecycleMyElectronics.ca. Committing to our planet's future means properly recycling our electronics of the past. The Advantage Investor podcast from Raymond James

Canada. Valuable perspective for Canadian investors who want to remain knowledgeable, informed and focused on long-term success. And Ridley Funeral Home, pillars of the community since 1921. Today, returning to Toronto mic'd is FOTM John Pole. Welcome back, John. I love hearing the the long stop set before we get into the content. It's so great to hear those sponsors. Well done, my man. Well, well done to you. We're gonna get into it, but first big question off the top, John, will you be my Valentine? 100% I would be your Valentine. I can't think of anyone else. I'd rather have a nice meal with perhaps some pasta. Well, listen, are we ever going to meet in person or what? John, this is your second appearance, both via zoom. When am I going to meet you? I can get you some palma pasta and some fresh craft beer from Great Lakes. You know, I feel guilty. I was in Toronto yesterday and I

actually thought maybe I should stay and go to the basement. And I'm not going to lie to you. There was a weird part of me that said, am I changing my entire travel to go to a man I'd never met before? His basement, it just didn't seem to work out. Plus, I had to be back for a very important hockey practice and subsequent volleyball and basketball game with my kids. So, but it will happen.

It will happen. Your third appearance will be here in the basement. How's this? I'm going to hold out. You don't get to come back on Toronto miced unless I get you in the basement. That's the deal. That is a deal, my friend. That is a deal.

So we're going to get into it. This is going to be a 60 minute special. We talked, John, in February, 2021. So almost exactly three years ago, this was at episode eight Oh three. So I'm just going to let people know if they want to go back and hear the eight is ed of John Paul's career in radio. They can go to episode eight Oh three. Here is the description I wrote at the time. Mike chats with John Pole about his years working for CFRB in the early 90s, how he came to own several radio stations.

That's gonna come up again in a moment. His recent role at News Talk 1010, hosting the night side with John Pole for stations in Montreal and Windsor. How he, this is gonna come up too, how he was fired by Bell Media. That happened John. And how he would have done that differently. I gotta go listen back to know what that means. Anyways we talked for 90 minutes that first time. We're gonna talk for about 60 minutes but

let's start, let's get to the meat of this. It was announced last week that Bell was selling 45 radio stations in smaller markets. John Paul, what's your take on all this? What's your take on what Bell is doing with their radio stations? Well, I think anyone in the industry would have predicted that perhaps one of the larger companies, whether it be Bell or Corus or Rogers, would be taking this tact at some point in the future. And I think it's partly because, one, I don't think that they would in a boardroom

say that's their area of expertise to smaller markets. And two, I think, and again, I'm outside the bottle on this one, so it's just my observation. I think a lot of times the bigger companies really bought into content, content, content, content, and they wanted to tie it in with cell phones and things like that.

And I think the way the world changed, platforms like what you're doing and YouTube and TikTok, all those things sort of came along. And I think they realized that this dream of having all of these content creators that they would control and be able to monetize, I don't know if that ever came to fruition. And in all of that, they were trying to run this business

that in some cases, not for all the companies, but maybe in Bell's case a little bit, it was a it was a monster they weren't really familiar with that has a creative slash science mixed to it to make it successful. And it can't be a financial cheat. You can't wait to excellence. Do you think Bell is good at radio? Um, you know, it's hard today when I found out one of the greatest morning shows in the history of Ottawa. You've got turf yesterday.

It's not a move I would have ever made because that morning show, whether you like their bits or not, or the music they played as people and as people that represent the city of Ottawa they just did a tremendous job and it's not a radio move I would make so it's hard to say that I would subscribe to that's a great radio operator however I understand the pressures that they're under I think that they have done some really good stuff unfortunately since, since the pandemic, they have been scrambling, might be the word I've used. And if there's 10 decisions they've made,

they're not the ones I would have made, but I'm not under the financial pressure that they're under. So maybe if I was in their boots, I would make similar decisions. But I can tell you from a radio perspective, just as a guy in radio who loves radio and admires the products and brands they have, I think News Talk 1010 had a lot of really good years

as a fabulous radio station since they blew out the newsroom and stuff. I mean, I listened the other day, it still sounds really good and there's still really good people on there. They just didn't do it the way I would do it, but that doesn't mean my way would be more right. It would just be more radio because I'm a radio guy versus a cell phone guy versus a

you know a cable guy versus a you know a telecom guy. Well we're going to get into that. I guess my broadcasting corporation doesn't have like internet service available or cable products to sell. No, no, we have radio stations and you know, we make our money selling advertising and doing those things. And obviously we purchased we were part of the group of buyers for those stations and we bought Kingston and Brockville.

And certainly one of the questions that I get asked a lot is, well, why are you gonna be successful when Bell seemingly hasn't been successful? And radio is an interesting monster because we have two customers. We're very unique in the sense that most businesses have one customer. We have two customers. We have the audience, the people that listen,

and we have the clients, the people that want the audience to come and do business with them, whatever that is. And you know, radio works best when you have what's called TSL, time spent listening. And it's weird because the radio industry doesn't talk about this number as being important, but I believe it's the only important number because time spent listening means that Mike turns on my radio station and he listens for an hour, 90 minutes, two hours, six hours, whatever it is. And why that's valuable is because you'll hear

Poma pasta three or four times and you'll create a relationship with them. And if we've done a good job and they do a good job, you'll go buy some pasta from them again and again and again. So in that sense, you've got to have a really good plan to build that time spent listening for the audience. So you got to do the things that they like.

But then on the other side, for the clients, you know what the clients really want is obviously, yes, they want to be successful. They want to turn their dollar into $1.50 or $2, get a return on their investment But they view local radio also as a tool that they use to create their brand Obviously be involved in the community and things that the radio stations traditionally are involved in it's an easy way for them to hop on and be involved with a food drive or the local hockey team and

It's also credibility a food drive or the local hockey team. And it's also credibility. Radio offers that third party credibility in some markets that if you're on that radio station, the audience goes, hey, if you're here, that means something. And I think if we look at sort of how Bell's done it is, they've lost some of those things. Credibility might be losing the

newsrooms. They lose a little bit there. Maybe they're not doing as much in the in the communities as maybe our company does. You know, so they've got some of the parts right, but maybe not enough of them. All right, I'm going to go back and then we're going to revisit all this because you can imagine I'm a curious cat here. But you mentioned this morning show in Ottawa. So I got to plead a little ignorance. I did read a little bit yesterday about Stuntman Stu. Yep, and could you just educate me a little bit as a guy who doesn't pick up Ottawa radio in his car like like you tell me a bit about this morning show and

Just give me a vibe of like what kind of a Legacy morning show this was that got turfed yesterday in Ottawa by Bell. Yeah, so Stu is, you know, he's stunt man Stu because originally he was on the rock station and he was the young guy that would go out and do the goofy stunts. He did a very smart thing that while he was doing those goofy stunts, he always made sure he did things in the community. So he just became a guy that kind of transformed from being the goofy stunt guy to the guy that everyone liked because he helped out kids with cancer and he helped out the hockey teams and he did all that stuff.

He parlayed that into an opportunity to host what is the Chum FM of Ottawa and host the morning show Angie Poirier, who was his cohost. She came from the TV side of the business. Again, almost the exact same side story on the female side, was on TV, was always involved in community things, is emceeing everything, has kids, tells great stories. And I'm not familiar with the third person on the team as much, because obviously I don't spend a lot of time

listening, but I just know from Angie and Stu's point of view, they do a ton of stuff in the community. Their show, when you listen to it, it was pretty much a standard adult contemporary morning show. The last time I listened, they were talking, arguing about whether mustard should be kept in the fridge, which again, for the audience they're targeting, that's probably exactly right in there.

You know, they don't talk too much, they're funny, they're cute, they're always working Ottawa things and everything they do. Just a really good morning show. Like, you know, obviously you could critique it and go, well, they could be this, they could be that, but just the parts of what make radio great. And if you look at that stuff I just mentioned,

like credibility, being in the community, that's the stuff that makes Radio magnetic and one of the challenges is if you look at that morning show and why you know I look at it as a mistake and again, maybe on a spreadsheet somewhere. It's not Radio is pretty simple because you have you have two types of people that work in radio. You have people that are technically proficient. They can hit the posts, they can show up, they can mix right, they can read the liner cards, they can follow all the rules of radio, the set up, the teases, the payoffs.

They're technically proficient. But the real goal is to become magnetic, where people wanna come to you. And I believe that Stuntman, where people want to come to you. And I believe that stunt man Stu and Angie, they were magnetic. They brought people to them, not specifically because of the bits, but because of what they did in the community. And certainly there's lots of examples of that in Toronto radio as well, whether it's,

you know, John Oakley or, you know, back in the day, Wally Crowder or obviously Roger Rick and Marilyn or John Moore. There's lots of great examples of people that not only are they technically proficient, they're also magnetic. You want to find out what, what they've got to say. So you use the S word, John spreadsheets. Okay. So, yeah. So again, we're speculating here, everybody. John doesn't work for the decision makers at Bell Media here, but

it feels like and you would concur that this is simply a cost cutting measure. Like stuntman Stu member Pillar, much like Ridley Funeral Home, a pillar of the community. OK, does it for a great job? People seem to you mentioned Magnetic. They like this morning show. They've been there a long time, right? They've been there a while and possibly because these people have been there a while they make a adult salary that would let them live a reasonable middle class lifestyle and perhaps that number triggered some alarm and Bell which you know only made didn't make

enough billion dollars last year is going to cut a few a few bucks off the Radio line in Ottawa. Is that what it sounds like to you? Well, look we have to be fair to Bell in the sense that they work in an arena where Investors invest in the company and Bell to its credit one of the things they have done very well is return Impressive dividends to those investors well is return impressive dividends to those investors. So if you're an investor in Bell and you're just, you know, taking your your shekels from them, you're probably very happy because you go, hey, whatever you guys do, whatever I trust you to do the work. So from that point of view, I understand they have they have other obligations to meet that they are

actually measured on. At the end of the day, every business is measured on the profit it generates. We are capitalists, so I can't knock them for that. But I can say and I maintain that as someone who invests in Bell, you know, I put a little bit of my money in there too, because again, they pay great dividends. I also I'm the kind of guy where I'm like, hey, look, I'm happy to take a little less, less to give the country a little more. Like I invest in because they're a great company and I don't necessarily have to make an extra three cents.

That said, the challenge is a lot of people's mutual funds, you know, teachers, pensions, all those sorts of big conglomerates, they're investing in Bell and they got a lot of people that are retired that need a return on their investment to pay their bills. So it's an ugly circle that exists. But in my opinion, if you're saying, do I think these cuts were purely financial? I think they're way more financial

than they are performance based. You use the another S word shareholders there. Okay. So, okay. And I'm going to use another S word in a good way though. FOTM Sharon Taylor. Do you know Sharon? I do. Okay. So I always value her input much like you, John. She's a beloved FOTM and I can turn to her and get some, some thoughts and analysis, some insight. And then, and she points out some obvious things, but I think we need to just visit it here. Before we get back to the four stations you bought from Bell, and I have very specific questions about you and my broadcasting corporation and etc.

But, like, Bell BCE, they are a telecom company. All the money is in cell phones and internet connectivity and cable, etc., etc. So radio is like this pimple on the back of some elephant. Like, it seems like it's like less than, I don't know, I don't have the numbers in front of me, but like, Sharon speculates, like, you know, it's 1% of their business is radio. Yeah. It was explained to me that on their list of stuff that they do, it's right near kiosks on importance. Right. I don't know if that's true, but it sounds like it.

Another number I'm going to let Sharon tosses around, and I don't know if this is accurate, but she tosses around. Okay. So if there's a profit of like 22% profit on this business, to Bell, it's like not even worth the trouble. Like 22% on this less than 1% thing, like sorry, Bell's got bigger fish to fry, bigger priorities, we're able to shareholders focus

on what's gonna make them like real money. Meanwhile, for a smaller radio operation that focuses on radio, and we're gonna get back to you, John, but like 22%, that's something you can pay yourself a decent salary. You can employ people in the community. You can make a difference. You can grow like that's a that's the difference between BCE owning these stations and you know, the the the smaller operations who bought up these 45 stations in smaller markets.

Yeah, really, 100 percent. And if you look at sort of the history of those stations and whether it's standard broadcasting or chum, like those group, those portions of those stations now are under the bell headline. Right. Astral. Yeah. When they were running with, you know, guys and gals like me that ran them and, you know, they operated number one at a time where it was easier to do and the money came in and there was less competition and you know, they ran them really well on top of that. So their margins were very impressive. And that really did attract people to want to buy them. And then the dream was that the efficiencies and the technologies and, you

know, the layering of all the stuff we could sell, wow, we put this all together, it would be incredible, which in a board room on a whiteboard probably makes sense. The challenge is, you know, I think it would be fair to say Bell is not operating their stations like chum operated them and or like, standard operated them and or Astral operated them. They're trying to fit them into what they do. And the reality is they don't. And at the same time, they've seen those incredible margins drop. And some of that's through maybe their own failure of operation.

Some of it's obviously through pandemic and changing times and all those sorts of things. But it does make it less lucrative to them. And I think if it's less lucrative and they don't have the answer, like when the legal guy comes out and goes, these aren't viable businesses, which is like a slap in the face to everyone

who works for them, advertisers with them, guys who bought stations from them. What that signals more than anything is they're disconnected from the business and the people of the business, and they just don't see it. And that probably happens in business every day of the year in every business category.

There's a person that doesn't see it anymore. And there's another person that goes, you don't see it because you're being blinded by whatever it is. Let me show you how we can make it make work. Okay, well that's the money shot, right? Is the exact quote, I'm gonna see if I can dig it up here,

but it was, okay. It's from Bell Chief Legal and Regulatory Officer Robert Malcomson, and he's talking to the Canadian press and he says, it's because it's not a viable business anymore with regards to radio. So that's the money quote, like that's your headline everybody, you know, Bell saying it's not a viable business anymore, which begs the question of why they didn't sell all the stations. They only sold 45, but we'll get to that. But you, John Paul, do you think radio is a viable business in 2024? Yes, I do. And obviously, I wouldn't have bought the stations if I didn't. But more importantly,

I believe it's a viable business because I operate a bunch of them that make profits and do great things in the community. And maybe the difference is, as you pointed out, our margins are okay for a guy like me. Like I don't need to have a 50% return, nor would I operate the business that way. And that's partly just because I don't need a private jet. I cut my own grass. You know, I do my own laundry and I don't see a day where I want all that stuff. It's just not who I am. So I'm happy with our margins. They give us the ability to continue to grow.

They give us the ability to, you know, remunerate our staff. We've worked really hard at that. I mean, I think everyone always wants to make more money, but I think we do better than most It gives us the opportunity to do fun things with our staff. We do retreats and I wear goofy shirts You know, so it works for me and I also because I'm so much closer to our Advertisers like a lot of our advertisers are my friends

I know how hard the shoe store and the restaurant and the car dealer, I know how hard they work for much smaller margins and they're very successful and they're doing the same things for the community and their staff. So I don't feel that if all of a sudden we don't turn a 40% margin that we failed, I think we just operate the business within that. Now, I, we have myself and my business partner, Andrew Dixon, as shareholders, and we are not responsible for funding, you know, the teacher's pension and all the people that have invested in this big conglomerate of our company. So if we take a hit, I take a hit. You know, I'm the last guy to get paid. So it all works out in our little world.

And I think it will work out in the same world for the Durham radios and the Vistas. And the Vista might be slightly different because they're owned by one of the wealthiest people in Canada. But they they run a very similar plan. And, you know, the guys at Whiteoaks Capital Communications, it's going to be the same thing. Like, they're just going to run a really good business that's fun to do and if you if you do it, right you make some money Okay, so let's get to the specifics you alluded to it earlier, but hmm. So you're one. What are you? Whoa, you're in a partnership with this. Mr. Dixon. What's his first name Andrew? Yeah So we started guys only together 2004. Okay, And the company is called My Broadcasting Corporation.

Yep. Okay. I know we covered all this your first visit, but gotta set the table here again. Okay. So how many stations? So you have bought, I mentioned that Bell sold 45 stations in smaller markets. Four of them are 98.3 and 98.9 in Kingston, Ontario. Remind me to get back to Kingston. I have a very specific question for you. And then of course in Brockville, 103.7 and 104.9. So you bought those four stations from Bell.

So here's a bunch of questions coming at you. Firstly, how many radio stations do you guys own now? With those four in the mix, it will be 24. Okay. And when does the sale become final? Like the CRTC have to stamp it or something? Yeah, the CRTC has to approve it. My best guess based on my experience is from the moment the application gets submitted

to the because of the way this purchase works, it's an asset purchase versus a share purchase it should take about eight months so assuming it was put in when they did the announcement you would you know type in eight months from that it should be about that time now the CRTC has been on a radio moratorium i'm sure they're busy doing other things. I'm sure they're short staff like everybody else. So I mean, I would I would hope in a perfect world for the radio world, our fiscal year end is August 31. I would love that the CRTC gets this done for August 31. And we start our next fiscal with these

stations under our umbrella, because it makes the accounting easy. Will that happen? I don't know, because it makes the accounting easy. Will that happen? I don't know. It could be the new year. Okay. So what happens to, so everyone who's employed at these 45 radio stations across the country, between the moment that announcement came out next last week, and you remember that was a big announcement, 4,800 people are getting let go. It's, you know, and there's sort of like, I noticed I would try to figure out. OK, so everyone employed at these 45 radio stations, are they do they have their jobs

until like like it's Bill going to pay them until the CRTC signs off on this? Like what happens to those four stations between now and the moment that the stamp gets applied by CRTC? What should happen and I don't see any reason why it wouldn't happen, but what should happen and what I believe will happen is all of the staff, I can speak for our stations, we've guaranteed to keep everybody that's there. So if they leave, like if someone leaves, they get a better opportunity. I don't know that they would be replaced immediately because I'm sure Bell would say, well, we'll leave that up to the new guys to decide.

If it happened tomorrow, they might go, well, we need someone for the next eight or nine months. We're going to make a decision. I would think they have a little bit of a chat with us. We would say, yeah, hire someone. My understanding from all the other owners that I've talked to or and or read about what they've said in the press, everyone else who's bought stations has said the same as me, all the staff stay. So there is an argument to be made that those staff maybe feel relief because they know for the next eight months, they got a gig. Interesting, right? Like this, this eight

month period where like, I know what happens with you buy a home, right? Like heaven forbid, there's a fire at one of these stations or something, you know, until the sign off after CRTC. This is Bell Media's problem, right? Like Bell Bell Bell's running them until we close the deal. No different than a house. It's a good analogy. They've got to keep the house in good order. Like they can't all of a sudden go, well, we're going to change all the stations to classical because it's cheap or whatever. We've got to run them like they're running them. You know, I'm sure that they would probably buy a few less pencils. I'm sure they won't buy new vehicles.

I'm sure they have a backup photocopier somewhere and one breaks. They'll bring in. I'm sure all that that would be normal. But they can't they can't really go and change what we're we're buying. They can't steal equipment out to take it to Toronto. It's got to be all the stuff we've we've all agreed on. We're purchasing and I believe them to be honorable. They've been very easy to deal with. So, yeah, it's business as usual, I guess, from the sense of some of the layoffs

we've seen and Bell said there's maybe some more to come in the coming weeks. You know, I hope the people in Kingston, Belleville or Brockville go, hey, like, I'm in a good spot because I'm I'm not I'm not on that list anymore. I'm yeah, I'm on the go into my FM. Well, that's it. Like, so, you know, the details are a little hazy here, but they say, okay, you know, 45 stations sold, 4,800 people let go. It did kind of read like that 4,800 included the people at the 45 stations, but then I guess it could be, let me just tell you like when CHCH declared bankruptcy, my buddy FOTM Mark Hebbscher was in a room and they basically said you don't have a job here anymore because we declared bankruptcy and because we declared bankruptcy, we don't have to give you severance, so security will walk you out. And then in another room,

a new numbered company was basically giving the employees of CHCH that they wanted to keep. This is a new job opening you could apply for. You'll get this job, but you know, the rates might not be exactly the same. Like, so does Bell, when this goes through, does Bell basically terminate all the people at the stations and you rehire them? Yes, because we're purchasing the assets now I I can only speak to The negotiations we are part of I would suspect Bell is you know Bell's a good operator They don't do you know they operate their business, but they they'd have good people working their lawyers and merger and acquisition people operate their business, but they have good people working there, lawyers and merger and acquisition people. I can say that in my opinion, I thought they were very concerned to make

sure the staff were well taken care of and that there would be very little interruptions for the staff and that we would meet all the things that they currently get that we would do the same. So, I can tell you that for our stations, obviously, we're, you know, and this isn't really a secret, we've done this in every acquisition we've had, we keep everybody because, you know, radio is about the people, Mike, like, I can get a desk and a transmitter and a computer anywhere, right? What I can't get is, you know, Ben and Reed, who would do a fabulous job in the mornings at Fly FM or move 98.3. Like that's to me, that's the exciting part is I get to work with them. And, you know,

and does another great people. So that's what we look at. We look at the people because the other stuff you can get anywhere. Okay. Now, again, if you can always say, you know, Mike, I'm tapping out on this question because these are some damn personal questions I'm hitting you with here, but do they get to be rehired at their existing compensation structure? I'm not going to speak specific to these, but let me speak to deals we've done in the past. And my answer would be, I would expect our future deals, we would do the exact same thing we've done in the past. If a person worked for, you know, we bought the stations in Niagara, you know, Giant FM

and Country 89.1, we bought stations in Simcoe, we bought stations in Peterborough-Coburg. We're real simple. You know, Mike, whatever you're making with, you know, XYZ company, we're buying it, you're making the same with us. I can tell you that our philosophy has always been over the years we've bought stations and we look at the benefits package and our answer has always been the same to the staff.

If their benefits package has something that's better than ours, everyone gets the better thing. Like everybody gets it. So what we've tried to do is over the years as we've added stuff, you know, everyone's one, not just the employees that are staying and but you know, the guys that work over there, they get a benefit too, because everybody wins together. I would expect we'll do the exact same thing in Kingston. Obviously, Bell might have a few more layers of stuff that they do for staff that is very different than us, but we'll figure that out. Well, you can't give them that discount on their Crave stream. Yeah, because I can't give them free Crave or, you know, I'm sure there's probably... Although I know a lot of Bell Media people who, they're not getting a great deal. Like,

I'm just saying, you'd think they'd get, like, I would think they'd get like a great wholesale rate or something on their phone plans, but no, it's really, you got to jump through these hoops to get their minimal discount. I think I get a better discount by calling up the retention people at film media. That's the trick, man. I tell you. Oh yeah, you just get to the retention people because they have the magic packages in their back pocket that you can't find online or anywhere. I have another theory and I've held this theory for many years and I've given this advice

to many people. When you deal with one of those big companies, whatever it is, Air Canada, Big Bank, it doesn't matter. Rogers, whatever. I just, I have a feeling you just keep calling back till you get the person that it's their last day. Oh, they've had enough and they're like, Hey, look, John, I'm with you. Here's the deal.

It's my last day. I don't care. They're out of fucks to give, basically, John. Yeah, exactly. It's worked well for me. It takes a lot of calls, though, but you can find them. So I love what I'm hearing. Like I had I still have more questions for you, obviously,

because I'm taking my whole hour with you, John. But like it sounds like this is a very good thing for small market radio in this country. And again, you can only speak to the four stations you're buying. You can't speak for what they're going to do at what is it? White Oaks communications or any of these other places. But I know a zoomer bought a station too. So that's interesting. Okay. So for you can only speak for what you're doing, but you're basically not going to mess with it.

You're going to retain the current employees at their current rates, reasonably so. And you're going to, like like you don't have any plans to I don't know, to disrupt anything like you're going to keep the formats at least short term and you're going to keep keep keep things as they are and just just run them as you run your other stations at my broadcasting corporation. Yeah, I mean, I think, look, I'm a radio guy. So I'm going to do what radio guys do we're gonna do research in all the markets and

As long as the stations are meeting the expectations of the audience There'd be no reason to change anything. Obviously we saw an opportunity that one station if it was Top 40 or rap or alternative or whatever you wanna say, could do better than what it's currently doing. That would be something we'd throw up on the whiteboard as an idea. But as I sit here right today, and I'm sure there's some people that would say,

oh, you're full of shit or, you know, that's not true. You know, I look at the stations, there are some trademark issues we have to deal with because Bell owns trademarks for Bounce Radio, Pure Country and Move and they haven't basically said, yeah, go use them. So we're gonna have to create some new brands that way. But I think when you look at the music and who they target and, you know, all of that stuff, I don't see a need today, you know, on Valentine's Day 2024, that anything would change other than what we have to change and what we want to change. So what would be on the want to change list? Well,

I'm a big believer in local news. So they currently don't have local news departments, they're going to have a local news department. That's going to happen. So there will be more local news. Do they do enough stuff in the community? My observation from never having worked inside those walls, just as a guy who's, you know, gone through some social media posts and read the newspapers and kind of kept up with what's going on there,

I think we can do a better job in the community, you know, being more of a leader. Not that they did anything wrong, we just work our company at a little bit higher level that way. So I don't think there's gonna be any major disruption, obviously, Move FM does very well in the ratings. So we'd wanna obviously continue to build on that.

I mean, if you look to, you know, we bought Giant and Country and Welland and, you know, I mean, the stations are a little bit different now than when we bought them. Some and Welland and, you know, I mean, the stations are a little bit different now than when we bought them. Some would say better, some would say, oh, I liked it the other way better. All of everything we've done is based on research. You know, we didn't change them at all. And all the people that worked there worked there except for the people that left.

And some people left. I don't think we fired anyone that I could remember a couple people retired a couple people went on to other opportunities. You know we were we hired people to replace them so it's I mean and you know same when we did Peterborough same when we did Welland although in Peter well we did a big format flip right out of the gates but again that was based on the research that we did. So I mean, again, I don't other than just regular radio that would happen 365, no matter who owns them, I don't see any major changes other than the things we're

going to add in that I personally believe are part of our secrets of us. Personally, I like my radio live and local. So this is all music to my ears. I can't believe they don't have local news. I didn can't believe they don't have local news I didn't know they they didn't have local news in these smaller markets that you you bought Well, here's again. Here's where you talk about technical being technically proficient and being magnetic. So They as I understand it and there might be someone on a board somewhere that corrects me, but as I understand it right now the news for Kingston and Brockville comes from Ottawa. So someone in Ottawa you know follows the Kingston police and follows the newspapers and gets the press releases and they create newscasts

that they send from Ottawa to Kingston which technically proficiently when you hear it on the radio, it's Kingston news. For me, the magnetic part is when our reporter actually knows the mayor and they see the mayor at Tim Hortons and the mayor goes, hey, by the way, I don't know if you know this or not, but Billy Bob over there at XYZ just won this incredibly interesting award. You guys should do an interview with him. We you guys should do an interview with them.

And we go and do an interview with Billy Bob and Billy Bob goes, Oh, by the way, my kids are playing in this thing and the soccer has a problem. They need to raise funds for whatever. And then we go and track all that. So I think technically proficient, you could turn it on and go, hey, there's news. Magnetic, I think that's what they're mixing. They're not doing anything. You know, their news people aren't at any events in Kingston. They're not uncovering any stories. They're just reacting to whatever shows up online. John, do you still listen to Toronto mic'd? I do. I'd be honest. I haven't listened. I'm trying to think the last episode I I have listened to and listened to all the ones that have radio people

because I'm a radio geek. And any of the music ones that are like bands I like, like I love Lois to the Low. I listened to those ones. But I found actually what's interesting is my overall podcast listening has dropped dramatically. Even though I have one that I kind of listen to routinely, I haven't listened to it as much.

And it's not a function of the content, it's just a function of I've been busy. Your habits, et cetera. Okay, so I bring up Toronto Mic because every month I have these episodes we call Toast. And the current duo that joins me for Toast, we have actually a live toast happening on this coming Tuesday after family day at 10 a.m. So toast for breakfast. And it's Rob

Proust, who was the keyboardist for spoons, and Bob Willett. And Bob Willett, I know him quite well, we become good buds. And then yesterday I learned Bob who runs a couple of stations in Kingston for a chorus, but Bob got the what we call in Toronto Mike the tap on the shoulder. And bingo Bob correct being yes sir okay from the old humble and Fred show so yes it's funny while we were chatting I had a whatsapp call from humble Howard who's in Mexico but there's a something I could produce that show, so I guess there's something, some fire I have to put out after this call here.

So Bob Lett is currently a free agent, passionate, talented radio guy who still believes, like you, he still believes in radio, although on Tuesday I'm gonna ask him if he still believes in radio after this tap on the shoulder because all he did was a great job and I think he won some awards and now he's he's got some time on his hands So I'm just here on behalf of Bob will let I'm letting you know John

This is a talented guy who's available and he has Kingston radio experience. I'm just throwing it at you. Hey, here's here's what I would say I believe Bob and I have chatted in the past I could be wrong because he was at Pride for a while, right? For a long time he was the PD at Pride with Evinoth. I think we chatted shortly after that maybe and we just didn't have anything at the time, but I would certainly tell him to reach out and be on our radar. Big fan of his work, the work he's done at Chorus in Kingston. Those stations are, you know, Big FM does very well. You know, Fresh, I think is fresh. It does okay. I don't know

my understanding as big as the bigger one and Fresh is a smaller one. But when you turn them on, they sound great. And again, I like they've done some good stuff in the community as well. So we're here's what I can tell you, whether it's Bob or anyone else with a bingo in their name or a Tarzan in their name or whatever it is, we're big fans of great radio people. And we certainly always try and fit them in where we can and where it makes sense. What an industry, right, John, that you can have a passionate, talented person who gets results and wins awards and then they could get the tap on the shoulder. Like, I just think that's why.

But you said the T word Tarzan. Okay. So just anecdotally, I noticed that, you know, Tarzan Dan had a gig on, I don't know, weekends or something at Boom here in Toronto. I don't know. He might've been voice tracking that from Calgary. I'm not sure. But basically he quit that gig because he got a job at Bell Media that was he was going

to be on, I don't know, 24. What are they called bounce? Yeah at Bell Media that was he was gonna be on I don't know 24 What are they called bounce? Yeah, I think it was 20 22 22 maybe you you would know better than me, but after the sale It goes down to three. I think three or four and I just think that's that's like This begs the question of like there was no leak here. I didn't usually you know Usually I get a heads up when big stuff's going down. I never got the, uh, the, the, the, the, you know, bunch of stations are being sold by Bell. Like I didn't get a heads up on this. I sort of found out when the, when the

world found out on Twitter, but how long ago, like how did you get just a call from deep throw? They're like, do you have any interest in one of these 45 stations? Like how long has this sale, you know, these things don't happen overnight. How long has this been in the works? These things don't happen overnight. I can tell you that in my 20 years of radio ownership, obviously we're always working towards deals. We're always dropping hints. We're always working with owners that we think might be retiring. And traditionally it takes, you know, it might take a couple of years from the day you say,

hey, look, I'm interested in your station to the day it actually you take over because, you know, guys got to get things in order and all that kind of stuff. In the case of Bell, you know, they're a bigger broadcaster. So they used more of a traditional system that exists for a lot of big businesses where, you know, they have an intermediary person that basically says here are the assets that are for sale. If you'd like to bid on them, you're welcome to bid on them. Like, that's a pretty standard process.

I think it would be fair to say that, you know, Bell's was very much similar to that. I don't actually know when it started, but I can tell you that you get an NDA first, like, OK, sign this and then we're going to ask you some questions. Yeah. OK. Yeah. It was all it was. It was very well done. I thought it was a very easy process and maybe maybe we're easygoing. I don't know.

But I can only speak for us. Everyone we worked with was great. I can tell you that. There's a lot of inventory that was available and, you know, we were working on other stuff and this one kind of plopped down and like we looked at each other and said, how is it? We've gone 20 years where like we usually have one thing in the works. And right now it's like, we're at a golden Correll buffet in Florida where like there's everything you could ever imagine.

Loosen that belt. Let's go. Yeah. So, you know, I thought again, I was surprised I didn't read about it more. But it's probably because they dealt with seven independent companies, all of who I know most of those people, they're just, you know, they signed an NDA and they're like, hey, I'm just Yeah, they're professionals. They're not gonna, you know, they they want to. Yeah, again, I know that, you know, I've talked to a bunch of them. They're all super excited. I think a lot of them will do equal to or greater than what Bell is doing in in in their current operations. I, I don't think anyone to my knowledge is thinking they're gonna buy them and cut anything.

I think they're all gonna buy them and add things to them. So I think it's a great thing. It's good for radio. For radio, yeah, it really is. Like if Bell's not gonna, if Bell doesn't want these stations and doesn't have, you know, doesn't find them viable and doesn't wanna put the work into it,

then sell them to people who give a shit and will help these stations thrive for smaller markets across this country. Yeah, I mean, look, I think there's a good track record of people that have bought radio stations and done a better job with them. Someday someone will buy my radio stations and I hope they do a better job with them. If you believe and you're passionate and you're enthusiasm, you have good people that work with you and you take good care of them and you take good care of the community, there's no reason it shouldn't be better.

Okay, well said. Now, I don't know the people at White Oaks at all. If they're listening, I know that White Oaks bought Hits FM 97.7. And I spent lots of time back in the Iron Mike Benson days. And don't forget Scruff Connors. And there's a lot of history there. But there's a gentleman in FOTM, I like most FOTMs, but not all FOTMs, but Paulie Morris, okay?

Paulie Morris built the White House of Rock at Hits FM. And Bell Media tapped him on the shoulder a few years back. And I'm just here to say if White Oaks is listening, let's bring them home. Let's bring Paul back home. That's all. Paul's a fine radio gentleman. His daughter is a great broadcaster as well.

And FOTM, Siobhan Morris. Yeah. I got to work with her at News Talk 10 10 and a huge fan of her work and was always very nice to me. So I have nothing but respect. I was always a big fan of her dad's work. My understanding from the short conversations I've had with the guys at White Oaks, because we send little notes back and forth and we have done that for a while. You know, they're excited, they're really excited. This is an opportunity for them to sort of get into more mainstream radio

versus what they've traditionally done, which is ethnic slash, you know, religious programming. Yeah, Christian programming. They've done a very good job at it. You have to remember they're also the guys that really spearheaded what became AM 740. They got in there before Moses and kind of created that. And I think probably did a really good job with it and let Moses build off of that. So again, I think it's going to be a big change for them. Obviously it's a way bigger learning curve than what I'm inheriting. I'm getting stations that are right in my groove.

They're getting something very different, but I would not be surprised if they reach out to some of those people that made those stations great, obviously, because we have the stations that compete with them. I don't want them to make them too great. I kind of like them the way they are. But that said, the tide rises all boats, as they say. So if we compete against someone who's great,

standard radio made Chum FM better, Chum better, chum made standard better. They, you know, new cap came in and they made somebody else better. So good competitions good for everyone, especially the listeners. a broadcasting corporation, NBC, NBC. I'm gonna do my Howard Stern there, but gonna ask you quickly here, and in exactly five minutes, I'll start playing Louis D'Alois and you can make that next meeting. But you gotta, I gotta ask you about getting a US radio license because you've got a station in New York.

Kate Vincents, tell me like, how can that be? It's a good question. We're the first Canadian to ever be approved to fully own a radio station in the United States. It was something we've been working on before the pandemic, because at that time, we didn't really feel that there was going to be much more growth for us in Ontario because at that time, we didn't anticipate Bell selling anything. There weren't many independents like myself left. When we looked at what was maybe going to be on the table someday in the future, we're

like, hey, it's okay. It's not going to really change our company a lot. We were looking for like, how do we grow bigger? So we had kind of started exploring the idea of, hey, we could get into the States. You know, there's lots we could buy, whether it be a New York State or whether we go to Florida, it doesn't matter. And I know a lot of owners in the United States and they're kind of like older guys looking to retire. So I was like, I know some guys that run good operations that maybe it would work.

But it started with, would the FCC approve it? So we started with that. We were working actually on a different group of radio stations. Pandemic came along that got put on pause and then out of nowhere this station in Cape Vincent was offered to us which was interesting because you know since the 90s it's operated primarily as a Kingston radio station it targets Kingston. Cape Vincent's a very cool yet small community that is really across the

the water from Kingston. So when it was offered to us, we were kind of like, oh, this kind of fits in. We have stations in that area. And then as the Bell Bell thing got piled on to us, we're like, okay, well, this all really makes sense. Now the question is, will the will the FCC approve it? And they have some special allowances, for example, a couple from Mexico that operated some Spanish speaking radio stations, they got approved. There was a couple from Australia that lived in Anchorage, Alaska, or somewhere up in Alaska for years, and the guy

that owned their station died, they gave them approval to buy it. So our FCC attorney felt that because we specialize in those smaller markets that they would say yes, they probably wouldn't let us buy Z100 in New York. So we went for it because we thought it would be fun. Plus, look, I'm a radio guy. I have nothing against CanCon. I think we've built great Canadian artists.

I said, I'm a fan of the lowest of the low, which is not necessarily obscure, but it's a little bit more obscure than saying I'm a fan of the tragically hip or blue rodeo. Right. Um, but there's a part of me that, you know, when I grew up and I'd go to Florida on March break and I'd listen to these great radio stations, it didn't have to play any can con. There was a part of me is kind of excited by that idea that I

would be allowed to do that. Um, yeah. So we were approved by the FCC We now own it now what's gonna happen with it. I don't know stay tuned It'll be yeah, I was gonna ask you got now you have some Kingston FM stations here So what what becomes of WL YK FM and Cape Vincent, New York? Well, I think I think internet trolls would say it's a huge loophole in the rules, which I would agree with. It's owned by, you know, it's not technically owned by my FM. It's owned by Andrew and I. And we can lease and buy things as anybody can in their business.

Right. The FCC doesn't care. And the CRTC doesn't care because the CRTC Rogers owned a portion of it for years. And before that, a gentleman named John Wright, who started some stations in Kingston, he was part of it. So it's not anything new. It's just new that we would own 100 percent versus an American being involved. So the CRTC's point of view is it has nothing to do with us because it's it's an American state. It's like a sorry. Go ahead. Yeah. And the FCC goes, hey, whatever happens in Canada has nothing to do with us because

we're the FCC. As long as you're meeting our rules, you're good. And we will. So I don't know what becomes of it. I think it's probably we're going to focus on the Kingston ones first because they're the they're they're the big the big dogs, so to speak. It might just be a fun little passion project that we use to disturb the market a little bit because we can and it's fun. It's damn fun. It's like those pirate radio stations you used to hear about off the coast

of England, right? Yeah, it's kind of like that. Or, I'm on the Mexican radio. You hear about those big Mexican signals that would blast into Texas and stuff. And good for you. We're going to put the station on a boat in the middle of the St. Lawrence. Look, John, Bell might not know how to make radio a viable business, but I'm glad FOTM John Pohl does.

And congrats on these purchases. And your heart's, you're doing all the right things here. So if I were a radio professional, and as you know, from listening to Toronto Mike, I'm most definitely not a radio professional. I would want to work for somebody like you. Well, I certainly appreciate that. I can tell you our business philosophy starts with we're not perfect radio stations. We don't profess to be, but we certainly do give it a good try. And if I'm being completely honest, Mike, it's my team that makes me look like I

know what I'm doing because they're phenomenal. I'm blessed to work with such great people and it's an honor to be featured on your podcast. And it's a real honor to be able to say we're gonna own stations that were once chum stations. As a radio geek, that means a lot to me me so I'm super pumped. So thank you. And that brings us to the end of our 1429th show. You can follow me on Twitter and Blue Sky. I'm at Toronto Mike. John, what's the best way to follow what you're up to on social? I'm on Twitter, I'm on LinkedIn, at John Pole, at J-O-N-P-O-L-E, and anyone's welcome to reach out anytime. I love talking radio.

Okay, you'll hear from Bob Ouellette shortly. Happy to. Much love to all who made this possible. That's Great Lakes Brewery. They have a new podcast called Between Two Fermenters. I produced that show and it's excellent. Subscribe, enjoy. Palmapasta. They're gonna feed us at TMLX15 on June 27th. We're gonna be at Great Lakes Brewery 6 to 9 p.m. Put it in your calendar. Recyclemyelectronics.ca. Raymond James Canada. They have a great podcast called the Advantage Investor Podcast. And of course Ridley Funeral Home, Pillars of the Community. This is 1429.

My next episode is episode 1430. I have an amazing lineup and it's going to be, John, you're going to love it. It's a radio episode. It's all about CJCL 1430 going all sports back in 1992. Brave move. I love it. See you all then.