Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Justin Davis: Toronto Mike'd #1171

Episode Date: December 16, 2022

In this 1171st episode of Toronto Mike'd, Mike chats with Washington Capitals draft pick Justin Davis about his many years in hockey and what he learned about hockey culture and the drive to play in the NHL. Toronto Mike'd is proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, Yes, We Are Open, The Advantaged Investor, Canna Cabana, StickerYou, Ridley Funeral Home and Electronic Products Recycling Association.

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The lowest prices on cannabis. Guaranteed. And Sammy Cone Real Estate Ask Sammy any real estate questions at Sammy.Cohn at ProperlyHomes.ca Joining me today, making his Toronto Mike debut, taking 85th overall in the 1996 draft, is Justin Davis.

Welcome, Justin. Thanks for having me. How was the commute here today? Yesterday we had this rain, and in some parts of the GTA, I understand it was snowy and icy, but here by the lake, it was never

more than rain. But how was your drive here tonight? It was great. My in-laws are from Etobicoke, but it's funny how far Etobicoke goes. They're at Princess Margaret and Islington. Oh, that's like central Etobicoke because you got Rexdale way above that. Right.

I'm way south of that. But yeah, everything west of the Humber River in Toronto is Etobicoke. So it goes a long way. I learned something new as a Guelphite today. So you live in Guelph? Yes. I'm trying to think. Okay, I'm going to ask you this off the top.

I was going to save it. And then right after I ask you this, you can crack open that Great Lakes beer and tell me your GLB story. I literally just came from the GLB brew pub where I met with a couple of FOTMs, YYZ Gord and Cam Gordon. But in your career, and we Gordon. But in your career,

and we're going to cover your career, which goes from, in fact, I'll run this down real fast, but like it's Hamilton Red Wings and Cambridge and Kingston and Sault Ste. Marie and Ottawa and Western Ontario, University of Western Ontario,

then UHC, say it for me. No, we'll talk about that one. That's interesting. Tilsonburg Vipers, Dundas, Real McCoys. Like here you are, 85th overall pick by the Washington Capitals. Did you ever score a goal against a goalie you might've faced in the OHL? And maybe even when you were at University of Western Ontario, Mark Gowan, does that name mean anything to you? Like I say, a lot of the time I know the name but trying to play

stories and I have trouble remembering my kids birthday sometimes so I'll take it back to then. On that note I'll clean that up in post just kidding but why don't you crack open what do you got there you got a pale ale right what is that is that a 666? I got the GLB

pale ale 666. Crack that open on the mic. Okay, not on the mic. You're off mic there. But enjoy. What was your Great Lakes story before we dive into your book that you wrote? Well, my wife and I, the last seven years, have run this charity hoedown with 100 of our closest friends

and we were looking for a beer supplier this year and someone reached out and said that the Great Lakes Brewery is one of the best. So that's who supplied our keg this year. So it's come said that the great lakes brewery is one of the best so uh we that's who supplied our keg this year so it's come full circle i love this story okay so i told you i literally just came from the glb brew pub where i was chatting with peter bullet who owns his family owns great lakes brewery and you're telling me so you reached out to glb and said you were doing this charity thing and they came through? Yeah, they were great.

A friend of mine, Ryan Christie, gets them delivered to his house all the time. So he brought it down for me. So yeah, we'll use them again next year. Okay. So this is wonderful to hear because as I told Peter Bullitt over earlier today, I won't drink any other beer. It's great. So when you leave here today, Justin, you're going to leave with some fresh craft beer from Great Lakes Brewery. Fantastic.

Do you, uh, while I'm on this topic, do you enjoy, uh, Italian food? Well, it looks like I'm going to enjoy,

uh, Palma's Kitchen, uh, after the podcast today. You should have your own podcast. Okay. You're not leaving here without a, uh,

frozen lasagna from Palma, Palma's Kitchen, which is from Palma Pasta, palmapasta.com. How many kids you got? Three kids. I got a 16-year-old that'll eat that on his own, and the 13 and 11-year-old

will mop up the rest. You'll be shocked, man, because I got a big family too, and there's a lot of food in that large meat lasagna. You look a bit young to have a 16-year-old. I'm impressed here. Maybe I misjudged your age, but here, regardless, let me tell people right off the top, you wrote a book.

I don't know if I could read a book, but I read your book. It's called Conflicted Scars, An Average Player's Journey to the NHL. And I read this thing, and I've got, like, lots of questions about hockey culture and your adventures. You know, again, I mentioned off the top, you were drafted by the Washington Capitals, but did you ever play an NHL game? No, I did not.

And times were different back then where you went to the main camp and people signed for a lot bigger deals. Working in the OHL now, there's a lot of kids that signed contracts for $250,000 over three years. And at your first contract, they signed a lot more people, it seems like, and they play a little bit less.

But back then, you had to earn your stripes to get your game in. And unfortunately, like the book says, I found out early that I just wasn't good enough to make it to that level. You're one of those great players, but just not quite enough to get to the big show. But again, spoiler alert, because we're going to kind of walk through some of your career here. Because I love this book.

Again, people can pick up this book right now, Conflicted Scars. But how close were you? Like, I know it's hard to gauge this, but how close were you to, you know, playing in the big show, the NHL? Well, I think when I got drafted by the Washington Capitals, they asked me to come down for a summer in 1996. So that was the first time where you really had, I was working out and skating every day with guys that were my heroes at that time. And it seems old to talk about it, but it was like Peter Bondra and Joe Juno.

And I was a big Oilers fan. I remember Bill Ranford was in the trainer's room and just staring at him. But when you get out on the ice, you think you're a good player and then you just see these guys that you've never heard of that are just so talented from Finland and Sweden

and they played US college. And we get trapped so many times in the junior game and think that we're really, really good. But there's just so many players out there. So your last taste, now I don't even know, do they pay you money or do they pay you in Great Lakes beer, but the Dundas Real McCoys,

like that's the last time you played competitive hockey, right? Yeah, and that was you get paid, there's a legal amount that they can pay you per game but I think the thing with that was when we won the Allen Cup, which is one of the oldest trophies in Canada for amateur senior hockey, we had 14 ex-NHL players on our team.

So when you're transitioning from pro hockey, just the fact you can sit in a dressing room with guys and tell stories and it's, I say it's kind of like weaning your way out of hockey because it's such a tough transition. When people talk about leaving the game, I think the toughest part is just that camaraderie and the teammates and the dressing room.

So that was the best part about Dundas. Okay, so we'll get to that because that's kind of how you wind down your competitive hockey career here. But I will just point out that there's news, I guess a couple of weeks ago, maybe last week, that the Real McCoy, this is a burger joint in Scarborough. So you're talking to me in Etobicoke right now,

but on the other side of the city, the real McCoy is closing up. They had like a good run. Like this is a really popular burger joint in Scarborough. In fact, I had a guy named Ripken on the show and Ripken worked at Mojo Radio. Do you remember 640 Mojo Radio? Yep.

Okay. I'm excited to hear you remember that. Well, we're similar vintage, but he like, I guess there was a contest back in, I'm going to say this is 2002 and Ripken declares that the real McCoy is the best burger in the city.

Okay. And the real McCoy still have this huge poster on the wall. Like it's actually made of cloth, which basically has Ripken like announcing that they're the best poster on the wall. It's actually made of cloth which basically has Ripken announcing that they're the best burger in the city. That's been there for 20 years. And I know I talked to Ripken, who's an FOTM like

yourself, buddy. You're a friend of Toronto Mike so welcome to the club, Justin. But I was chatting with Ripken on Facebook and he's like, he's making a call because they're shutting down the Real McCoys. I think they're going to build condos or something. And Ripken wants that cloth poster thing that's on the wall right now.

Ripken wants it. So we're going to try to see if we can get Ripken his Real McCoys Best Burger in the City poster. This is the kind of stuff that's going on here, Justin. Okay, so you're not an NHL player, although now you'd probably be retired anyway, but you do have a great career. What is your

profession? I'm a high school teacher right now, so I've been teaching in Orangeville. I teach physical education at ODSS and been there 14 years. Good for you. Just came from coaching a high school hockey game today and right to the show. So yeah,

hockey's still in my blood. So my cousin, Mark Gowan, who I asked you if you knew him off the top, because he played for like, I think he was playing for the Bellevue Bulls and then he played for the Sault Ste. Marie Greyhounds.

And then he ended up playing for the Guelph, not the Storm, the University of Guelph. Yeah. And now he's a teacher too. So it seems like it's a good profession for you guys. You can't quite make the show. I think what happens is when you get into pro hockey

and you see these guys that are, now it's so young, but 34, 35, 36 and are still kicking around the league and when hockey ends, they have nothing. So for those of us that were drafted or, or saw what it was like, we decided to go to a Canadian university of hockey. Cause it's a, it's a great outlet and get our education. And then like I did go overseas and play in Germany or, or pursue your dream.

Like some guys have made the NHL coming out of university of hockey. Yeah. Oh, I feel like Mike Ridley did that. I feel like there's a, yeah, a bunch of guys that came out of the Canadian University. So we're going to walk through your career in hockey and this is going to be awesome. But again, spoiler alert, because we'll get to him later. But how is Brian Kilray doing?

Like he wrote the foreword to this book, but he's got to be pushing 90. How's he doing? It's funny. When I played for him, I thought he was 90 years old. And then I ran into him in the rink about 15 years ago and he looked the exact same. And when I called him about doing the forward for the book, it was the same guy.

I said some other. He's a legend, right? Well, I looked him up on Canada 411 and his number was there. His wife answered the phone and it's the same old, same old. So yeah, Brian's smoking a cigar and having a couple of beers each day and still makes it to 90. I don't know. I don't know what's going on with his body.

And he's a hockey hall of famer, right? Correct. Wow. Like this is a legend and we'll get to it because you played for him in Ottawa, right? So we'll get to Brian because you played for him in Ottawa right so we'll get to Brian the killer right this I say when I hear killer I think Doug Gilmore right but no that's Brian Kilroy yeah no you got it we'll get we'll get to that hey so again I'm not trying to jinx Brian because he's doing well and whatever he is 88 years old or whatever but so this is not hopefully this doesn't have anything to do with Brian's good health. I hope he lives to be 108.

But I am going to give you a gift from Ridley Funeral Home. This is a flashlight from Ridley Funeral Home, our local funeral home here in New Toronto. So that's a little something for you to keep you safe. Perfect. Thanks. Now, Justin, my kids, are your kids good at hockey? Yeah, my son played AAA hockey too at 16, but he's transitioned into, he plays great lakes canadians in london and that's the route that he's going so uh yeah i coached him all the way up and uh he uh he had a love for the game for sure see i got um of the my

two sons who played hockey uh they're they're basically house leaguers like they love to play they're house leaguers but neither had the uh well one's only eight so we'll see if things change but my 20 almost 21 year old like he never had the talent or the drive to do anything more than house league so i was kind of like i felt like i dodged a bullet maybe because when you play house like it's the same arena every weekend and it's the same cup like time slots and stuff you don't have to travel with the team or whatever but i mean there's a lot of parents listening right now to us and their kids are dreaming of NHL glory. So I would tell these

parents that if they want to get a taste of hockey culture and kind of see how it went for you that your book is a must read. What made you write this book? Well, I think I'd been going through a couple health problems a couple years ago and my kids, I hid a lot of this stuff.

So my jerseys were in the back of the closet and I had a Memorial Cup ring and university ring and that stuff's kind of hidden in my sock drawer. And I thought one day I'll just write down some great stories for my kids and basically tell them how great my career was and how great hockey was, just like you're talking about,

glorify it. And then when I started to write things down, I realized that there's a lot of things, like you said, my son's 16 and things that happened to me at that time, moving away from home and things I encountered that I just realized just weren't right as an educator and as a dad. And so the more I wrote, it turned into a book. So I meant to write something down for a couple of weeks. And in four months I had, I had a memoir. So I'm going to start maybe by just referencing that Akeem Alou came out with like his real talk, I call it, but basically his experiences in hockey. And there's been some ramifications from that. But in your experience playing hockey all those years, and we

mentioned all those different leagues and we'll walk through it but this kind of like like he talks about being called the n-word and stuff like that like did you witness anything that blatant yeah I talk about in the book I think a lot of the time like every indigenous player I played with was called chief and you hear the n-word and but I think there's just so much power to coaches and general managers back then. And so you don't say anything or you end up risking your career. So it's not until I step outside the game and I see the lack of diversity and equity with inside the game. And we didn't know what was right and what was wrong. And it's easy to say that now, but Akeem's right.

And if you go watch a hockey game, it's still a very white sport and affluent as well so uh he's not he's not wrong and that's the platform i've had for this book and uh and we're starting some programs in my local area because you you kind of reference this off the top and you talk about your like your initial guttural reaction to akeem come kind of spilling the tea here and your initial guttural reaction is like, hey, what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas, right? Right. So, I mean, his first incident,

we had something called the hot box. It's a junior hockey. That's a tradition where basically six guys get naked in the bathroom. They turn the heat on and you're in it for three, four hours. And that's just something that I thought was a normal tradition. And we did.

And you're nervous about getting in there. And then when you get out, you feel like you've accomplished something and now thought was a normal tradition and we did and and you're nervous about getting in there and then when you get out you feel like you've accomplished something and now you're a veteran and you know it's not right but but you did it and he was one of the first people to stand up and say no I'm not doing it and the next day he was cross-checked in the face and he lost six teeth and broke part of his orbital bone and and and you're thinking like this isn't normal behavior towards somebody I mean if you say no it doesn't give someone a right to like break your face with their stick right so when i look back on it it really made me examine my role and where i stood up i i talked in the book about i had a friend playing hockey in germany that was uh bananas

thrown on the ice and when he tells the story and explains it to me you're just at that time you're almost emotionally indifferent to it because you're like well okay but you just wish you'd stood up stood up at certain times and uh and uh it's just something that we live with and something we realize now that's not normal do you think is that's i mean i guess you wouldn't know because you've been out of the game a little bit here but but is that still going on? I mean, we talk about the 90s like it's the 1920s, you know what I mean? Like in the 90s, people were throwing bananas and using the N-word.

This blatant racism, I hope it's not still happening, but I don't know if it's not. Well, Hockey Canada just released a report two weeks ago that last year there was 500, I don't quote the numbers, around 573 racial slurs that were thrown out that were caught by refs and from the GTHL and different areas that were caught and people were suspended. So now the suspension is an automatic five-game suspension, but I was on an interview the other day and they're asking if we think that's just.

And I mean, if you hit someone from behind, I think you get three games and but if you throw it a racial slur you got five games so i mean we're making steps but at the same time this is these are serious things and catching people saying it on the ice is is difficult right yeah you know you got your your racism there and then you have what like i i was in the schoolyards in the 90s. Okay, I didn't play competitive hockey. I played at Swansea Hockey Association, Rennie Park, we played house league. But the homophobic slurs were like plentiful. Like the F word as a insult was flying around in the 90s. Right, but when you're, I think for me,

this has brought a lot of awareness i've talked to some former professional baseball players and basketball players and the one thing they always say is that we moved away when we were 14 or 15 and we played with 20 21 year olds so uh when you talked with that language i sat in the dressing room and thought everything the 20 21 year olds was the truth and it was the the gospel of hockey. So you don't question things. So language is something that was learned. And someone asked me, how do you take it out of the game or how do you change it? This is a long process. This is a 10, 15 year process, but we have to start at younger levels with a culture

where this is unacceptable. And you know what? There's strides being made, but we've still got a long way to go. So you mentioned the hot boxing, which I learned about in your book, by the way. And there's other talk about hazing. One thing that's prevalent is this, like this hazing, this hockey hazing fascination with nudity. Do you know what I mean?

Like you tell a story about, and I'll keep, close your kids' ears. I'm going to talk about how like, like your dick in the drink thing thing you know that story you talk about at the uh like like like what is it with these hazing rituals and hockey and getting uh these rookies naked well i think you're just broken down like i said at 14 15 you know that that's what's gonna happen and i played junior c when i was in uh when i was 14 years old and then you played junior B and then you play junior A and then you get to the OHL.

So by the time you get to these junior levels, you're just so used to it. I mean, I had to walk into a grocery store with just a jock on and buy a case of a pop for a mix for a rookie party. And you gotta, I mean,

if I asked a normal, I'm a teacher. I mean, if any of those kids were asked to just go naked into a store, they'd say you're ridiculous. But after two, three, four or five years of it, you just, you're so teacher. I mean, if any of those kids were asked to just go naked into a store, they'd say you're ridiculous. But after two, three, four or five years of it, you just,

you're so broken down. And it's funny, one of the last Hockey Canada reports, they had someone on the record with our government say that nudity is part of the game. As long as it's with your teammates, you're naked 50, 60% of the time, that's okay. And it just like, you're just, you're reading it and you're thinking like, this is part of the problem. People still think this is a reality.

And to your answer, I always talk about, even in the book, I say this, we called people that didn't play hockey civilians. Okay. And we're like, oh, I was at a party with civilians. And I tell these stories to people and they'd look at me like you reading the book. Like that's not normal, man.

Like, what are you talking about? And then you realize, like, I'm the abnormal one. Well, because, I mean, because I'm reading your book and you're talking about, you're drinking this beer, right? But you find out that that beer, like moments ago, moments before you're drinking it, it had someone else's genitals like in that drink of beer, right? And you're only 15 years old, I should point out.

I mean, you're very young. You're very, you know, you're very dumb. And basically there you are drinking this beer. Someone's genitals were in it. And then you're, what is it? At the Breezy Corners Motel. Yeah, Highway 5 and Highway 6. Wow.

But like, I think the one thing with the book is the feedback I'm getting from people. And I thought I'd get a lot of blowback telling these stories and people would be upset. But I've had so many former teammates and people I played against, uh, call and reach out. And I realized that the stuff that happened to me is the tip of the iceberg. Right. What happened to other people is people are

still kind of embarrassed and, and haven't talked about, and they are now like telling their wives or telling other people or reaching out. And I've become a, almost a counselor of sort for people. But you realize that even though that doesn't sound lucky when you tell the story, I think I was lucky compared to what happened to a lot of people.

But even like I mentioned, Mark Gowan off the top who played in the OHL, I still remember the stories he'd tell about these, these hazing rituals. These, these rookie hazings in hockey are just like unacceptable looking at it through the 2022 lens. Yeah,

exactly. And you know what? I said, when you go to a job and someone asks you to go get a coffee for them or go out and do some initial jobs, it's kind of show your role and learn the way of the company. I mean, I have no problem with certain hazing things like help like be help bring a hockey bag in, bring the stick rack in, be the one to pick up the pucks as a first year player.

Like there's nothing wrong with that. But like you said, it's just this natural affiliation to the nudity and, and, and harming people, which it's unacceptable. And so the hazing aspect initiation,

I think there's still a role for some initiations safe and kind of two people to a bus. And then when you're in your fourth year, you got your own seat, things like that, no problem. But it's just these other things that you're right. It's something nobody else goes through. So if I were to say to you like, hey, what are your memories of when Joe Carter touches them all

at the 93 World Series? Yeah, we were running naked around the Breezy Corners Hotel and I think it was the first drinks I had and didn't know what was going on. But each person has their own memories, right? You know, hey, that's what happened to you, man. So we talk about Joe Carter's home run and you remember, yeah, being 15 years old

at the Breezy Corners Motel and you had just downed your first 10 beers, I guess. But, you know, it could have been worse because you drank that beer and someone else's genitals were in it, but it could have been a lot worse. But, hey, we won the World Series, man. That was the second back-to-back.

So they can't take that away from us. All right, Justin here. So again, we're going to just hit some high points here. I'm just going to remind everybody that if you are interested in this book, it's called Conflicted Scars, An Average Player's Journey to the NHL. One thing though, average players aren't drafted into the NHL, right? Like I feel like you're above average player. Yeah, and someone else asked me about that.

But when you look back at your career and I think of my role in the OHL, I might've been an above average in the OHL, but when you get to pro hockey, I think, uh, I view my career differently. I feel like I could have been better and I see so many other players. So what I wanted parents to know is like you talked about earlier, so many people dream of my kids going to be the next Mitch Marner and all these things. But as an average guy in the OHL that went through pro hockey, these are the things that happened to me. And this is what it's like. And this is the mental toll and the anxiety

and the things that come out of playing at that level. So let's get you to the OHL. And I'll tell you as a reader of your book, nothing pissed me off more in this book than you at the 1994, not the 1995, but you're at the 19... Can you just give us, again, all the details are in this book than you at the 1994 not the 1995 but you're at the 19 can you just give us a again all the details are in the book but uh you were at the 94 ohl draft right right so i grew up in a small town so back then you you tell parents now that you didn't really know what the ohl was and they think you're crazy but i remember i said brie Brie scouted come to one of my games and I had played really well.

And they said, we're going to draft you in the third round. They called me at home to make sure I went to the draft. And so my dad drove me to Belleville and I had no idea again, what the draft was. So I showed up in an old pair of, I remember request jeans with that or the red part on the fly and the crotch of it and a t-shirt and I'm sitting there and all these people are walking in suits and they're agents and you know that's don cherry's fault right yeah exactly so

i'm sitting there i have no idea what's going on with the draft and it goes through three rounds and i wasn't selected and back then if you were an underage you had to be selected so i'm mad though like even you retelling it and i read it in the book but like this this somebody and i don't i guess you don't want to name this person but somebody at the sudbury wolves is phoning you at home and saying to you come to the 94 oh hl draft because we're drafting you yeah and that's and then you realize as you go through the game these are the mental tools and i remember getting drafted the next year and you're sitting there and there's kids that sit there for 15 rounds and don't get drafted i remember don cherry would say like please don't go if you don't think

you're gonna get drafted yeah but you were phoned like this is it justin listen you were called by and this wasn't like your buddy playing tricks on you right like this right this was a scout for the uh sudbury wolves and i mean my uh my cousin played for the Sudbury Wolves, actually. So, I mean, this is a big time OHL team. A scout's calling you at home and saying,

come to Belleville, come to the OHL draft because we're picking you. To me, to not draft you and have you go undrafted sitting in that fucking draft,

pardon my French, is cruel and unusual punishment. But it's the first step, right? But aren't you mad? Aren't you still mad? Well, I was, and I said that in the book. Like I said earlier, I can't remember my kids' birthdays

and I can't remember certain things, but I remember who did me wrong in my mind. I talk about Flamborough Minor Hockey where they wouldn't let me play a year up even though I was scoring 300 goals a year. And so you remember the names of those people. And then Sudbury, I was like, okay, I remember that. So every time I play Sudbury and when I went through the, when I went through the, my actual

draft year and how many people had more points than me, I think it was like, there was 20 people drafted ahead of me that had more points in the OHL. So I feel like during my career, I proved myself, But again, I didn't realize this until like you're talking about this, just reading it. I didn't realize any of this stuff until I sat down and actually started to write a memoir. Yeah, I kind of had an agent, but I didn't really know how it worked.

And like, we're as naive as naive could come. Now at eight, like you've got kids saying, oh, I am going to sign to this agent and I'm going to go to the GTHL and I'm going to go to the GTHL and I'm going to house with somebody. And the dream is, and back then it was just like, we played hockey to play with our friends and the small town kids were some of the best players.

So yeah, I remember, don't play it off like I didn't remember. And I think for my dad, this is just the mental. Yeah, yeah. What's it like for him though, with his boy in Belleville at the OHL draft, because a phone call came into the home. This is the part that pissed me off.

Like this guy made a phone call and said, come to the draft, we're drafting you. At that point, to not draft you and not have any communication, like, oh, we had a, I'm sorry, we had a change of heart or we had something that came up or whatever. But to not communicate with you, to me, I just want to, where is this guy this where is this scout because i want to punch him in the nose yeah and and you know what you're as in now i realize like

again what my parents went through right as a dad now seeing what they went through in that process breaks my heart to think about it well in the following year i got drafted by kingston and i wasn't planning on going to the ohl because of that because it left such a bad taste and after a day they offered me, they said, we want to sign you. And I never came back home. So when you talk about the anguish and kind of pain it caused my mom, where like you leave

for a weekend and then you never come back home for the rest of your life. It definitely is the wear and tear. And this is what I want parents to know. Like they're so eager to get their kids in a certain league and moving out at 12 13 14 but these are kids like you don't get to see them again and when you throw it away there's still very few people that become connor mcdavid and these people that have 10-year careers

no no great point i mean everybody thinks they're kidding yeah like you said mitch marner earlier whose point streak ended yesterday by the way it's over the streak is over but uh man he was a long way off from the mario lemieux record anyways but okay so you go to the 94 ohl draft and you're not drafted but then you're almost like uh charlie brown kicking that football because you like did you know for sure you'd be drafted in the 95 ohl draft well i went in and back then the hockey news was the gospel and bob mckenzie and yes um it was rated in the top 20L draft? Well, I went in, and back then the hockey news was the gospel and Bob McKenzie. Yes. It was rated in the top 20 of the OHL draft.

I remember there was a profile, and I got to the draft, and again, here we go. I'm ready to go, and I watched player after player get picked, and by the third round, I hadn't been picked, and I didn't know what was going on, and I wanted to leave, and my agent said, just stay, and I got selected by Kingston late like the sixth round and I was just so mad and talking to Brian Kilray after a lot of

teams thought I was going the college route and that was kind of what my agent threw out but at the same time it was just like here we go again and I was so mad that I wasn't going to go to Kingston but then I realized I mean this is a team that took a chance on me and drafted me, so I can't be mad at them. But again, it wasn't a great experience with the drafts. And I mean, I'm sure you're looking at your path because your goal here is to play in the NHL, right? So you're thinking Kingston Frontenacs, playing there and having a good career there

is your best bet to have a pathway to the NHL, right? Yeah, exactly. I mean, you get there and Brett Lindros had played there the year before and all these big names. And when you get to training camp, people are asking for your autograph. You get to wear a half visor for the first time and it feels like the mini NHL. I mean, think about the great NHL players have gone through the OHL, like it's a lengthy list from Bobby Orr to Wayne Gretzky, right? Like this is definitely your path to the NHL players have gone through the OHL like it's a lengthy list from Bobby Orr to Wayne Gretzky right like this is a

this is this is definitely your your path to the the NHL okay so let's get you in Kingston and just hit some interesting points here I was reading about in your book but one thing is that you start things off of a bang right because you had a hell of a first game with the Kingston Frontenacs well I actually started off

so they call it a healthy scratch so when you're when you're not playing they just say you're scratched from the lineup and you're healthy. So I didn't play the first couple of games. And then I didn't think I was going to play one of my first games playing. And I got a popcorn and I'd worked out in the morning, was sitting in the crowd and they said one of the Czech guys had pulled his groin and I was going to play. So it was in Sault Ste. Marie and I got the call, came down, changed and didn't even have a warmup. And I ended up getting a hat trick and I was the first star and things went quick. And from there I ended up playing on the first line and scored 30 goals that year and got drafted. So when you think back why things happen to you or why things happen for a certain reason, that was definitely the break that i that i needed i got and i took advantage of it now let's hit on like i mean you've had there's many injuries and we'll talk about a few of them here but they're tell me a little bit about this i guess it's in your rookie campaign here of kingston but is this where you get slew footed and then you get the concussion when you hit the ice

yeah so we were playing against barry at the old dunlop street arena and i was skating up the ice and the slew foots when someone kind of pushes your chest back but sweeps your feet out and it's one of the dirtiest things. People talk about hitting from behind. The slew foot to me is so much worse because the ramifications and injuries that come from it but I hit my head on the back. My head slammed back on the ice and I didn't know where I was and when you get these concussions after you get a couple you realize it's just like, it feels like the world just is in slow motion and this white foggy so i got to the bench and i didn't feel well and the trainer said are you all right and i said yeah i think i'm okay and

so i said okay they got a pedalee so go out in the power play and it's the only time i remember like i i had no idea what was going on when i went out there so i came back and i threw up over the bench and they said, you know what, maybe you should just sit out for a little bit. So when the period ended, I laughed because if this has happened now, they take you to the room and they do the check. But they said, just sit for three or four minutes.

There's no protocol at this time for concussion protocol. Your trainer is your stick, is your equipment guy, is your bus coordinator, orders the pizza. Again, we're talking mid-90s, right? It feels like we're talking about some prehistoric era because of what we know now about CTE and concussions. But please continue. So after the period, they took me to the dressing room

and they said, are you okay? They had a doctor check me out. And they said, okay, this isn't good. It's a really bad concussion. So he can't go out and play. But because we only had one trainer, they said, you know what? Take your skates off, go lay in the

shower and we'll turn the lights off. And then we're going to finish the third period. And then when you come back, we'll monitor you and we'll make sure that you're okay. So the team went out, they locked the door, they shut the lights off and I laid my equipment in the shower for whatever, 30, 40 minutes, whatever it takes for a period. And, uh, then everybody came in, I got dressed, I went home and I practiced two days later. And knowing what we know now, that's part of why I wrote the book is that the CTE

and the discussion of what happens to you after multiple head injuries. It's the compounding, right? It's terrifying. You mentioned Brett Lindros like about 20 minutes ago and what, he retires at,

I don't know, early 20s. Right. Because of compounding concussions. He doesn't want to be like a guy our age, like drooling and unable to, you know, live his life. So that's what I was going through as a phys ed teacher. I'd be standing in the gym and I'd look one way quickly and I'd get dizzy and I was having a lot of bad migraines.

And so when I wrote the book, this is what I was saying. It's just, it's terrifying when you look back on it and uh how badly i don't think we're it was intentional it was just so ignorant yeah it's like smelling salts get back out there like i i co-host the show of mark hebbs here yeah called hebsey on sports and just this morning we were talking about like in the 90s of course he's the guy on sportsline with Jim Taddy. And like how they would glorify the brawls, you know, like the knockout punch and getting your bell rung, basically. And how, yeah, you might have missed a shift,

you might have not, but there was no protocol. We did not understand, or at least, yeah, we were maybe blissfully ignorant or whatever of how damaging these concussions were. I will say my kids are only house leagues. There's no hitting in these games,

but I make, go break a leg, break them both. Yeah, yeah. Just as long as your head, the head is everything. That's where the brain is. That's everything. Yeah, and we're just finding out now and my former agent, Alan Walsh, is really going hard after all of this.

And he was just saying the other day, because they were discussing whether a hit was, the Ryan Reeves hit the other night. That's what we were talking about this morning. Was clean or dirty. And his point is, when it's getting near the head, former players saying that's a great hit, we're not looking at these former players when they're 40, 40, 45,

and 50 years old when they're suffering from the injuries from this stuff. And that's what we're worried about. And I said in the book, like, I don't mind fighting. There's a time and place where you need to stick up for somebody. But are we looking for the knockout punch and the crowd standing up? Are we looking for the cross-ice hit where we're taking a guy's head off? There's a way to have some physicality in the game, but it's got to be different than it was for sure.

Well, I mean, we heard stories about Chris Pronger, right? You know, you just put him in a dark room or whatever so that he could get through the day. But my goodness gracious, how many, as far as you know, because it's impossible, I guess, to know exactly, but how many concussions do you think you suffered in your hockey career? Well, I'd say 13 to 15, but the next year when I was traded to Sault Ste. Marie,

I was at a blindside hit that I went into the boards and I was unconscious and I was having a little mini seizure on the ice. And for people that follow football with Tua, is that a bunch of the name, Tua Golova or whatever? Dolphins quarterback.. Dolphins quarterback. The dolphins quarterback. And he, uh, when he had this hand went up in

the air and that fencing syndrome, they call it. And, uh, that happened to me and, uh, I was out for two, three minutes and then I went to the dressing room. Uh, they, they took me off and woke up with smelling salts and, uh, and they, they put me on the bus.

And at that time, the Sault Ste. Marie, they thought they would get me to Canada instead of paying the US medical bills. So I started throwing up again all over the bus and the trainer said, we need to get him to a hospital. And so instead of taking me to Canada, they got me to a hospital in Detroit and I spent three days in ICU on IV

and getting MRIs and bleeding on the brain. And it was a terrible situation. My mom came down and stayed with me. And long story short, I don't want to get ahead of myself and maybe questions you had, but they tried to bill me $15,000 for the bill the next year. My agent, Alan Walsh, stood up for me and said, this is not right. But they said, we only pay medical bills in Canada. That's why we're trying to get them to Canada.

And this is the Ontario Hockey League, right, where you're charging at the time 15 bucks for a ticket and you've got these sponsorships and trying to bill my parents. And I remember watching, I used to watch the OHL game of the week on Global. Global, yeah. Jim Ralph used to do, as I recall, Jim Ralph would do the intermission interviews, et cetera. Well, that's where I got, that was my first big game in Kingston.

I took a slap shot right here in the face in the OHL game of the week and cut my lip open. And I went for stitches and the old Kingston arena was so old. There's so much power going through that they lost all the power on mid stitches. So about six stitches in, they were doing with the flashlight. So, uh, so that's why I have a scar that starts and goes right towards my cheek and goes,

uh, goes left back towards the middle of my lip. So I gave you a Ridley funeral home flashlight. I wish they had that flashlight when they were doing it. So long story short, the Sue, my agent said that, uh,

uh, if you don't pay the bill, I'm going to go public with it and say, this is how you treat your players. And they paid it. But so the bill, I'm going to go public with it and say this is how you treat your players and they paid it. But so that's, I mean, been on for half an hour and I've told you two major concussions.

And then you add in little ones, like you said, that repeated every time you get hit. Well, you said 12 to 15 in total. Like we all know about the compounding. This was, well, Eric Lindros, forget Brett Lindros, who died very young,

but Eric didn't play a full career because of the same problem. It's the compounding uh concussions so I missed the rest of that year and then started the next year but then like you said each little hit that you get it just uh is exponential damage we'll call it here okay my goodness and today so you're you're a bit younger than me but let's say you're in your mid 40s I'm just guessing here like do you still have any side effects from these concussions you suffered as a hockey player? Yeah every day and I mean when you read the symptoms with and you say mood swings and anxiety and I am not a big going out into public and talking to people and you get anxious when you do certain things and I was dealing with these headaches and dizziness but we have a concussion

clinic in Guelph that's a state-of-the-art in Ontario called Shift Concussion and I was dealing with these headaches and dizziness, but we have a concussion clinic in Guelph that's a state of the art in Ontario called Shift Concussion. And I've been going to Scott Haller there and doing a lot of eye exercises and going through things. And, and this book, this book has been like just coming to you and, and talking to people about it is like counseling and things you got to get off and. I'm billing you for this therapy. Yeah, exactly. You're taking an invoice home with you. So it just helps, right? And get through kind of the anxiousness and things that you deal with on a daily basis.

Well, I'm glad you're talking about it. And I'm glad you wrote the book too, because a lot of times it's all sunshine and happy faces and stuff. And it's like, let's get some real talk on hockey culture and what it's like. And you're a guy who was drafted, but didn't play in the nhl and it's very interesting to like read your perspective on all this so earlier we talked about you know the hot boxing

okay which means something different in the canna cabana world shout out to canna cabana who will not be undersold on cannabis or cannabis accessories over 140 locations across the country. We love Canada Cabana. But can you tell me succinctly here, what is a shoe check? Well, so a shoe check is like someone you're playing junior, everyone will be eating dinner and somebody will say, hey, you're going to go, let's say, we'll say Mike. Someone's got to go get Mike.

So they'll have a spoon of ketchup or thousand Island dressing. And the goal is, is go under the table, crawl under the table and put the spoonful of that on somebody's shoes. And then they crawl back out and get back to their seat without anybody knowing. And then everybody starts tapping their glass and saying, shoe check, shoe check. And everybody looks down at their shoes. And then you see your white running shoes have a giant ketchup stain on them. And it just brings, brings down the house, but nobody, you try and keep the person that's happened to occupied. So they don't look under the table.

But now like, again, I do all this stuff as a, as a person out of the hockey world. Now, if I was eating at like Kelsey's and I saw somebody crawling on the dirty floor with a spoon of ketchup under and putting it on every top of their glass and laughing like you just you wouldn't know what's going on but but but I will say this to hear this story it's almost like okay well this is like a like a harmless prank okay it's kind of pretty harmless anyway it's kind of ridiculous but meanwhile uh I believe it's with Kingston I think it's with the Kingston Frontenacs that you have a

rookie initiation where there's you'll tell me it's your story I read it in with Kingston. I think it's with the Kingston Frontenacs that you have a rookie initiation where there's, you'll tell me, it's your story. I read it in your book, but you tie shoelace around your genitals. Well, that was part of the hot box where- Oh, that's part of the hot box. That's what you do. And everybody has to,

you have to walk down the aisle and every veteran player yanks on the shoelace. Ouch, does that hurt? Yeah, and that's when you get into the- A lot of nudity in the hockey. Right. So then when you talk about that and then you go to the shoe check,

again, it's just varying degrees in the hockey world. But shoe check better than hot box. Can I say that? Yeah, just slightly. Put some ketchup in my shoes. Just don't tie that shoelace around my genitals

so you can pull on it. I'm 44 now and I still, when I go to a restaurant, I sit with my back outside the wall so that I can see what's going on

and I can see all ends of the table who's coming. So it's like, when you talk about things are ingrained. That's like a mobster. Well, you're just ingrained, right?

It becomes ingrained in the back of your mind. I feel like mobsters always, they always have their face to the door so you can see if somebody comes in who's going to knock them off

or whatever. Okay. Now, I want to ask you about the, this must have been an exciting moment, but did you attend the 1996 NHL draft in St. Louis? Yeah. So my parents and I, we drove all the way to St. Louis and we stayed in a hotel.

And I remember being in the lobby, watching people walk by. And when we talked about players, I remember this giant man walking through the lobby and I was like, who's that guy? And when we talk about players, I remember this giant man walking through the lobby. And I was like, who's that guy? And they said, oh, it's some Slovakian defenseman. And it was Zdeno Csar.

Of course. And that was my draft. And so just the players that were expected to be drafted. So my agent told me, you're not going to get drafted to probably the fourth, fifth, sixth round. So just take your time. The first round's really long. Don't get there early. Drafted probably the fourth, fifth, sixth round. So just take your time.

The first round's really long. Don't get there early. So I arrived around the third round. I wrote the 60, 65th pick. And I got, there was a snack bar and I was hungry. And so I got fries and ketchup and I sat down. And like immediately upon sitting down, I remember just the Washington Capitol select Justin Davis. And just shocked.

So I didn't really have time to comprehend. But you didn't have ketchup on your shirt or anything, did you? Nothing. I was clean. So then, uh, yeah, so I didn't really have time to comprehend, but then when I went down, it was, uh, it was surreal. And what round is this? The 85th?

I know it's 85th. So 85th. So back then it would have been the fourth round, but, um, yeah, it's still like a, I look back and you look at the people that got drafted after you and the risk they took. So, yeah, it's something that somebody can't take away from you. And it was really a big moment in my career. No, I mean, you can be touting that till the day you die, right? Like that's like I would just get a T-shirt like drafted by the Washington Capitals at the 1996 NHL draft in St. Louis.

Like they can never take that away from you. Well, except for the guy that said to draft me and then I didn't make it, then maybe he loses his job. Oh no, screw that guy. If you dox him, give me his name. I will, you know, I'm not a big guy. You're a much bigger guy than I am,

but I will punch him in the nose. Okay. I can't, I'm just thinking, I have a 21 year old, so I just transpose everything. And then somebody phoning my son and saying, we're going to draft you at this draft, come to this draft. And then we go to that.

Again, we're in the past. We're going to bring it back to the sophomore slump you had with Frontenac. But to not get drafted, to me, this is the worst of the worst, Justin. I know you've moved on in your life, but I'm just grappling with this now. So I'm still upset okay all right so we talked a little bit about Sault Ste. Marie because you had that uh terrible concussion there but there is a a guy you played with at the uh in the Sault Jumbo Joe Thornton like so you're playing with Jumbo Joe here. And before that major concussion, though, I guess, A, what was it like playing with Joe Thornton?

Somebody, Justin, another Justin, Joshua, sorry, I get all my J names mixed up, even though two of my sons are named J names. But Joshua Cloak tells a great story about Joe Thornton and Gord Downie and their relationship because a wonderful relationship they had because, um, well, cord was a big Bruins guy anyway, but, uh, Joe was Mr. Bruin for a while there,

but what could you tell me about playing with Joe Thornton in, uh, the Sioux? Oh, it's interesting that you said that because I read the same article about Joe and, uh, and that's the thing about him, right? He's, he's never front and center. He doesn't put himself out. Like, I mean, if Gord Downie was meeting with me in Toronto, I think I'd call all my friends and tell my parents I'd be taking pictures. That's my favorite band of all time. Right.

I mean, it was the soundtrack of my hockey career because that's... 50 Mission Cap. Every Canada Day, that's where we'd go to Molson Park, and we'd do that. So the fact that he did that and kept it under wraps, and that's who Joe is. He took care of everybody. So when I got traded there, I was a little intimidated, even though I was 18 and he was 16,

because he's this guy who's supposed to go first overall in the draft. And he was just such a great guy. Neither of us could ever sleep on the bus. And Sue, your 12-hour bus rides every weekend. That's the thing about playing at Sault Ste. Marie is a lot of bus rides. It was awful. So we couldn't sleep. So we'd stay up and we'd talk.

And then at the end of the year, his brother was a teacher in Texas. And we actually went to, I think, Galveston, Texas to visit him. And we just kind of hung out and had a great time. We actually went to see a silver chair concert. I always remember we saw them and. Tomorrow. I saw them at Molson Park. So I remember we were in a mosh pit and, uh, and he was just like, uh, just running around

and just trying to destroy people and his brother pulling them out. And, but in Galveston, Texas, no one knows that he's going to be the first overall pick in the next NHL draft. And we don't have camera phones. But so anyways, we lost touch. I always say it's tough when someone's a millionaire and I'm a thousandaire. And like, I mean, how do you keep in touch? But when I reached out to him and said, I really like you to just say a blurb on the book, it would mean a lot.

And he said, with all these people, like Brian Kilroy, you call them, and it's like it's 1997 again. And he said, no problem. And we caught up, and he was amazing. He's just a great guy. I don't think you'll find a teammate that played with him that would have anything bad to say about him. It was neat that we got to see him here in Toronto too. Now, this is part of my ignorance.

Has he retired yet? I don't think he officially retired, but just kind of texting with him when he was playing for the Leafs, I think, even though it didn't go, I think how he expected. And it's tough when you're on the, well,

that's what happens when you play for the Leafs. That's right. But he had his family moved here and, uh, he was able, his kids were able to, uh, go see his parents in St.

Thomas. And I think it was just great being around here. And, and you look at the impact, he's still hanging out with, uh, Austin Matthews and Mitch Marner. And yeah, I think it was just great being around here. And you look at the impact, he's still hanging out with Auston Matthews and Mitch Marner. I was wondering the same thing. I always thought he'd go to Switzerland and play two or three more

years, but you never know with him. He's unpredictable. No, he's unpredictable, but if people haven't seen the piece about his relationship with Gord Downie, his final years, quite the story there. Okay, let's get you back. quite the story there. Okay. Let's get you back. You mentioned Brian Kilroy again. Let's get you to, so how do you end up in Ottawa? I know

that again, all this is in the book, so we're just kind of breezing through it, but, uh, there's a bit of a sophomore slump for you. And then you have that terrible, uh, second major concussion and we touched on that, but how do you end up in Ottawa? So, uh, I have the concussion, the year ends. And then over the summer I come back to the Sioux and I have a, just a terrible experience with a coach and, and to that coach's credit, when I recently I've,

I've had some coaches reach out and apologize and talk about some of the behavior, why things happen. And that coach reached out and they were worried about my concussion, past concussion history. And they were, they,

they wanted me out. So Brian Kilray called and said, uh, whenever you played us in Kingston, you always scored. So I want you here. So I, uh, I drove up to Ottawa that day and, uh, I walk in the room. I'm like, where am I going to bill it? Like, it's another new billet. This is going to be my fifth high school and five years, my third billet house. And he says, oh, you're, you're coming home to stay with Judy and I. So I hop in the van and go back to his house. And like you, I'm, this is a future hall of famer, the winningest coach in junior hockey history.

And you're nervous. And, and, uh, I ate dinner at the house the first night and it was probably the most normal, like just close to my family that I've ever had. And took me downstairs, said, this is my beer fridge. This is my recliner. Here's a hockey game. Watch this. And here's my rotary phone

in case you want to make a long distance call. It's tough when the numbers have a lot of, we're old enough to remember if you had a lot of nines in your phone number, like that was a lot of work. I tell the story where I have a calling card and there's a lot of ones in it. And I'm like, I give up. This isn't going not this isn't no the ones are easy right i'm trying to

remember now i mean i'm older than you but the ones are easy right that's the short one it's the nines yeah you're right it's a nine so uh yeah so anyways it was great so i got traded there and and then things you just said you're gonna play in the third line and just want you to score and have some fun and uh moved, moved up. And, uh, the rest of the story is, uh, well, it ends in a,

like you mentioned like earlier, you mentioned that you went on the Allen cup, but this is, uh, the 1999, uh, you win the Memorial cup. Yeah,

we, uh, so I was an overage, so, you know, it's your last year in junior and, uh, it was just such a great experience.

And then obviously for Brian to win it in ottawa and i was on the ice the the puck came on the boards and we actually went to overtime and uh i passed it to mad zoltec and he scored the game winner and so to assist on the game winning goal in the memorial cup and then i was the uh leading scorer in the tournament and uh it was just it's just surreal justin davis i'm gonna go up and tell Jarvis, the leading scorer in the 99 Memorial Cup is in our basement right now. That's right.

That's awesome. That's awesome. And it is quite the feat that you did win the Allen Cup and the Memorial Cup. The only chip missing there is the Stanley Cup, but obviously you got these two wonderful accomplishments. Quite the career for a guy who didn't suit up for the Capitals.

Well, I always joke. I won the University Cup too at the University of Western, the only championship they won. But I won the... And what's that called? They called it actually, it's just the University Cup.

No fancy name. So creative. But in Ottawa, I won it in single overtime. At Western, I won it in triple overtime. Wow. And then with the Real McCoys in Dundas, we won it in single overtime. At Western, I won it in triple overtime. And then with the Real McCoys in Dundas, we won it in single overtime as well. So the career could have gone very different ways if I lost any of those,

but lucky enough to win each one in overtime. Too bad you didn't win in Germany, but we'll get to that in a minute. I'm going to ask you about a couple of names while you're in Ottawa, and then we'll get you to fall in love and get you to Germany here. But I think it's kind of neat

that you're kind of crossing paths with James Cebulski because he's a guy like a media personality that we kind of follow here in the Toronto Mike's universe. But were you friends with James? He was like, I don't know how much the people listening would know James. Oh no, the people listening would know him very well. Like, do you know where you are?

Yeah. So James was like a WW, I'm going to use old school, WWF, not the E. He was like- Listen, George the Animal Steel is literally right here. We were just talking about Miss Elizabeth the other day, actually. Well, Miss Elizabeth, that macho man Randy Savage, now you're talking man. That's my WWF time. So James came in, I believe he's working at a

local college and they said this guy's going to do the public address. So usually you get like Ottawa goal scored by number 12 Justin Davis and it's like the routine and then he would just be like a wrestling announcer and then

he'd say to us he'd say okay what's so and so's nickname so Brian Campbell would score and he'd be like goal scored by number 44 flying Brian Campbell and then assisted by the ladies man and like so he's adding these things in so we're

beating Mississauga win game 7 to 1 and James got on and was like, uh, Ottawa goal scored by flying Brian Campbell and what a goal and then rush. And this is on public address. And I remember kill Ray just losing his mind on the bench is somebody get that guy off the mic and I'm going to,

so he was, uh, he was hilarious and he'd meet after and Brian would just wait for him to get on the bus and then he'd lash out at him. But you know, James, he wouldn't care, but yeah.

And you know what, to his credit, he stayed in touch with a large number of those guys that were on that team. And, uh, it's, uh, it's,

it's something I'll never forget. But this begs the question, what was your nickname? Like, what do you, I mean, can I get it? Okay.

Justin Davis. I actually don't even know where you go. Is it just JD? What's your nickname? Mine would have just been JD when I played, but I don't know what he called me on the mic. Justin, okay. I'm trying to think, because Davis doesn't really work, because you just add an E or something to the end, but

Davis doesn't actually translate. Hockey's pretty simple, right? You add a S-Y on the end, or initials, but once in a while you get some really good creative ones, but they're pretty simple, right? You add a S-Y on the end or initials, but once in a while you get some really good creative ones, but they're pretty simple people. Well, your coach there had a good one. I think Killer's a great nickname for a guy named Killray,

but it's really nice to hear you talk about him because he's almost like the Mr. Rogers of the OHL or whatever, and then you just hope you never hear a bad story about him. like the way you talk about him and write about him in the book, like we needed more of him, like more, we needed to clone him and put him in all these, uh, in, in, in, in hockey and the culture would have been quite different. Well, I think the different with someone asked me why he was so different, but I think so many coaches want to make the NHL or want to climb the ranks and use junior hockey as their stepping stone. And they're going to make a difference for Brian lived in the same house for

60 years. And he was a pillar of the community. He was happy where he was. He had no, no goal to go anywhere else. Like he went to, I think he worked with the New York Islanders with Al Arbor for a year or two and realized that wasn't his gig.

And he came back. So he cared about his players. And the one thing I'll say about him, he didn't trade people. If you ask for a trade, he and realized that wasn't his gig. And he came back. So he cared about his players. And the one thing I'll say about him, he didn't trade people. If you ask for a trade, he'd say, okay, go home and I might trade you. But when he drafted you, his goal is to develop you and bring you through the system and work.

So, so much different when you look at it from a perspective where you know you're not going to get fired. You're very good at what you do. And so, I mean, but the story is like, I mean, he could do nothing wrong. I tell a story in the book about how the bus was going into a ditch because they all smoke cigars on the bus and the bus driver was allowed to smoke a cigarette.

So we'd pop the hatch in the back of the bus and you could barely breathe, but the bus driver passed out because, Oh my God. Like, I don't know if he had like a, he just like whatever he did, he fainted and he was gone.

So the bus starts heading to the ditch and Brian jumps into the driver's seat, hits the brake and puts the bus in, in, in park. And then one of the newspaper people comes up to him after and says, Oh Brian, like, how did you react so fast? And his comment was, when there's one beer left on this bus, you gotta be quick. And you're just like this guy, like, this guy, this is who he was. He was Batman. And he could say that stuff, and people would laugh.

Yeah, he's just one of a kind. That's a precious story, just all of it. The cigars, the cigarette, the bus driver passing out, the killer. It's like when Kramer, remember Kramer? And he goes, why'd you keep stopping the buzz? He goes, people kept ringing the bell. Well, that's, yeah, no, it was something you never forget. Wow.

Okay, so you win the 99 Memorial Cup. Now again, not to get too personal, but the woman that you follow to Western, are you still married to her? Yes. Okay, good news. That's a tough question to ask live. I'm like, I was sweating when I asked it,

but I just got a good feeling about it all. So is that why you end up at University of, by the way, it changes its name while you're there, right? I feel like Western changed its name. Yeah, I went to, it's gone to Western University after the book came out too. So yeah, I won the Memorial Cup and I thought, man, there's going to be a lot of teams breaking down my door to sign me and right i got offered a couple american hockey league and

east coast hockey league deals and like i said earlier you see these guys that are just kind of 34 scraping along and fighting and trying to oh the hansen brothers right just trying to make some money and i said i've seen slap shot okay yeah so i was trying to figure out what i was going to do and near the end of the summer i met uh uh well I knew her for three or four years and we got talking and I said what are you doing next year and she said uh she said I'm going to Western so I said oh that sounds good but we're talking like one week before school right and like now I look at my high school teacher people apply like in January February so I call the coach yeah I call the coach and I say hey my name is Justinin davis and i think i'd want to go to western to play hockey

and he's like let's see what i can do send your transcripts so on labor day i end up at western with with jess and i mean we were probably dating for maybe five days so take a huge leap of faith that this is the wrong person i'm in the the wrong place. I made a big mistake. But you knew, man. I could tell you knew. You knew this was the girl for you. It's beautiful, really. We got married in 2002, and we've been together,

and she's been everywhere with me, Germany. And yeah, so I made the right decision. And you got beautiful kids, and you're still a happy man. I'm looking in your eyes here. You're still happy. Life is good. Life's been happy. Yeah, I know. Life is good. Life's been good.

Life is good. Okay. So, obviously, Western, where you said you win the championship creatively titled the University Cup. Yeah, exactly. We got to get a good name on that. Come on. That's the Mike Ridley Cup or something. And again, let's not bury the lead here because you're not, spoiler alert, you're not going

to be an NHL star making millions of dollars. So you're going to get an education and then you get to be, that's a great profession, a teacher. Like I think you've chosen a wonderful profession. You can, you know, work with the youth of tomorrow or the youth of today, I guess, and that's a great living you've got. And you get your summers off. Yeah, it's always the summers off, right?

So, yeah, like, and that's the thing is, I mean, we practice every day at university and we had 13 NHL draft picks the year that I played at Western and got a great education. I mean, it's, I tell people. Who's the best player on that team? We had a guy, Jeff Martin,

who was probably one of the best. Oh, from the tea party. Yeah, one of the best hockey players I played with. But like everything, you look around and we're all here for a reason, right? Something didn't break our way or something happened, and we had some great players on that team. But, I mean, I know this is a Toronto Mike podcast,

and maybe I'm supposed to say U of T here, but I'm a Western guy through and through. Part of you. It was one of the, it's where the smart people go, and it's one of the best experiences I've had. Listen, no, listen, my son went to Laurier, but he actually transferred to York. He didn't have a good time.

And then my daughter's at McGill right now, but my buddy Elvis, who's visiting me for Festivus, went to University of Western Ontario. And yeah, it sounds like a party school. Like, it sounds like a good time that means you have the uh airing of the grievances later tonight then that that's the 23rd man come back here we're gonna air the grievances i'm gonna get out the pole the festivus but no tinsel it's distracting okay we follow the rules here hey so i get the feeling from you you're into like alt rock

in the 90s right we talked about the hip and then I just referenced the tea party, but were you a fan of the Watchmen? Yeah, a little bit. Like it's, it's funny what you, uh, I mean, I mean, you got what people gave you, right? Someone will give you a CD and say, this is, this is what you need to listen to. And, and, uh, so your tastes were really with who you're surrounded by. Okay. The reason I'm bringing up the Watchmen is because the drummer for the Watchmen is a guy named Sammy Cohn. Cohn is K-O-H-N. And I want to shout out Sammy Cohn because he's a hell of a real estate agent. And seriously, he's in the top 1% of realtors in Toronto.

This is according to the TREB, the Toronto Real Estate Board. And if you have any questions at all about real estate, anything related to real estate, you can write Sammy right now. You can write him about Drummond for the Watchmen if you want. But Sammy.Cohn K-O-H-N at Properly, L-Y ProperlyHomes.ca Reach out to Sammy. And even if you

just want to say, hey man, I loved your drum fill on Boneyard Tree or whatever. Reach out to Sammy. He's a good F-O-t-m okay so you graduate western you win that championship but then you end up in germany and this sounds like in the way you put in your book i like it because it's like like hockey took so much from you and this was a chance for you to kind of exploit hockey for your benefit right like get to go uh to germany right i got some offers from some east coast league teams and

some hl uh teams come to university i'm like do i want to go to toledo ohio to play hockey or do i want to go that's where clingers from by the way mash like do i want to go to coblentz which is like an hour from cologne an hour from frankfurt in germany and then i do the google maps and like i'm three hours from amsterdam I'm five hours from Paris. Everything's there. You got it. In Oktoberfest man. You got it. So I had my wife with me and I said let's do this and are you married yet or are you still dating?

I'm probably one of the only guys that got married in their third year at Western but yeah we were married for a couple years we both had a teaching degree so I said let's go and my wife speaks Spanish and she picked up German when we were there and she's a she's a french teacher so languages she was an easy yes and uh yes we end up in germany and uh uh through an agent a slovenian this if you talk about a seinfeld episode or these sitcoms i had an agent whose name was drago

with slovenian oh for rocky four oh yeah well he was he was not he was not the same uh the same body type so uh this guy calls me and he says hi i'm drago i'm uh i'm gonna be your agent i said sure and so he got me a great deal with his team i got a car an apartment i made three thousand euros a month and everything that you could want and uh so he says okay he calls me when I get to Germany. He says, you owe me $3,000 as part of the signing contract. I'm like, okay, 3,000 euros. So he said, we had a game in Stuttgart and he said, uh, I'll meet you when you get off the bus. So we're busing and I got 3,000 euros cash in my pocket. And I'm like, when I get off the bus, how am I

going to know who this Slovenian agent is that I've never met before? So, and he always forgot my name. So he called me, called me champ. So he'd say champ, it's Drago when he called. And then he'd say, champ, uh, it's Drago. Are you going to be there tomorrow? So I get off the bus and this five foot six kind of stocky Slovenian guy says, um, uh, I'm Drago. So I give him 3,000 cash. He says, have a good game, and he disappears. And that's the only time I've met him in my life. So I'm wondering, did I hand $3,000 to the wrong person? What's going on?

And then that's how I got to Germany, was through Drago the Slovenian. Drago. Just don't make him bleed, okay? That's the trick there. You know, that's where I first, this is going to be a quick sidetrack here. That's the, that's the trick there. You know, that's where I first, this is going to be quick sidetrack here. So James Brown,

right? Godfather of Soul, the hardest working man in showbiz, James Brown, big deal. I discovered James Brown because he sings that living in America at the beginning of Rocky, of Rocky four.

Yeah. Like who's it? Then it's like, Oh, I feel good. And then I feel good was on the, uh, good morning,

Vietnam soundtrack, which I had on cassette. Yeah. Okay. And by the way, I set up. And then I Feel Good was on the Good Morning Vietnam soundtrack, which I had on cassette. Okay, and by the way, I set up my cassette player here, not because I love the 90s so much, but I do, or the 80s. But I'm going to start digitizing some old Humble and Fred tapes. That's going to be my Christmas time project, is going to digitize old Humble and Fred cassette tapes. So don't get too jealous, okay, Justin?

So I drive 45 minutes to Orangeville every morning. And three years ago, they had a... 820. It was on 820. It was 820. I was all over it. Yeah, they didn't renew, but yeah. So that was my listening when I went to work every day.

I don't know if I missed it because I was in 40 cities in five years but i loved those two are you ready for this are you sitting down yeah i produced that show come on humble and fred yeah and then you'd have the dog barking in the background sometimes and oh that's stan yeah yeah the bulldog yeah uh so i literally that that's that's one of the shows i produce is humbling so when i coached high school hockey i'd leave at six three in the morning and dark days and though that was like when they were on 102.1 uh a little bit on that but then an 820 was my yeah that was my that was my go-to and so they did they had a five-year deal on i'm giving you some insight here but they had a five-year deal on serious xm to be on canada laughs okay and then serious xm didn't

renew so humble and fred gave their show to 820 and then 820 at some point decided they just wanted to do like stand-up comics all day and we got like a... So they sent us a note to say they weren't going to have us on after this certain date. And then so I'm part of the team. So it's me and Humble and Fred decided,

you don't get to fire us. We're going to quit. And we basically set up this thing where we quit radio before they had a chance to fire us. And now they're just a podcast, but still a lot of listeners and I'm still working with them. So it's going great, but that's funny.

Yeah, they were great. Well, a lot of Watchmen were played on Humble and Fred and Morning Shows. It all comes full circle here. Okay. So you're in Germany after you graduate from University of Western Ontario. You and your wife are in Germany.

I want to ask you, so there's a FOTM named Mike Epple who actually appears on Breakfast Television and 680. And Mike Epple's from Tilsonburg. So I just want, can you give me a taste before we get you to the Dundas Real McCoys here and get you that Allen Cup, which is like your third major trophy.

What, like what's the Tilsonburg Vipers? Like what is that? So I basically was going to sign another contract to go to Germany. And I went out for a run one day. I was in week three of my off-season training and I just stopped.

And I said, I'm done. One kilometer in, I'm like, I cannot work out anymore. I'm done and I'm going to teach full-time. So I did that and I said, I am done playing hockey. I'm never and I'm going to teach full time. So I did that and I said, I am done playing hockey. I'm never playing hockey again. And then a guy I had played with was coaching this

Tilsonburg, Tilsonburg Vipers in the senior a hockey league. And I, so there's fighting in this league, right? Like this is a tough league. It was full out hockey. Okay. And I was like, I am not playing. Like if you think I'm driving from Guelph to

Tilsonburg to play, i said i need free sticks unlimited i need free skates and i'm gonna need probably a hundred dollars a game thinking like there's no way they are gonna like this is senior hockey and they're like done so i'm like whoa wait hold on maybe i need it yeah i needed two hundred dollars a game so it came too cheap i did it for for about three or four months and uh and i got my new skates i got sticks and i wanted to set myself up for coaching where at least i had some material and some cash but that was it that was the one year with the vipers and then that's just before the real mccoys right right okay but i just till to say you know to have it on your like i went to your i went to your nhl, to say, you know, to have it on your, like, I went to your, I went to your NHL.com.

Like, you know, it's all there or whatever. And to see Tilsonburg Vipers there, it's like, I got to find out what the hell are these Tilsonburg Vipers. Well, I was a stay-at-home dad too. Because my, when I came back from Germany, my wife was working. And I was like, I am, I can only go to the park so often and watch my two-year-old go down the slide and walk him to Tim Hortons. So I said, I need something. So that was my vice. And you need to wean yourself off this competitive sport.

And that's where winning this Allen Cup, your third major trophy of the Dundas Real McCoys. Wow. Okay. So I do have a big question for you here as we kind of start to wind down, but like any regrets, like, do you regret any of this? Like I read this book and all this stuff and it's, it's kind of fascinating to take down the curtain and kind of show us regular, us civilians, as you would call us, like what it was like, but any regrets?

No, I don't think so. When all this Hockey Canada stuff was coming out, my dad said, if I had known what had happened to you, probably would have i would have come up and picked you up and gone home and i said i wouldn't have gone dad like i i was so far ingrained in this and if you think you were going to take me away after i've been drafted or all these things so uh regret wise i don't and i i think writing this book and talking to you is with people reaching out. And now we're in the process of starting a hockey foundation for the underserved in Guelph. And I've got Hockey Canada and we've got some partners joining. I feel like this, all the crap I went through is for a purpose and for something to happen.

When you talk about your kids playing house league. Yeah. I mean, I run a adult hockey school through can-am hockey and uh there's nothing better than watching a 60 year old woman from nashville come and learn to play hockey and raise the puck for the first time right the joy so i've realized like what i love about hockey and i want people to discover the game i just get so frustrated with the parents who are just like destroying their kids for the NHL dream. So my regrets, I think, are just that I'd love to do.

I hope people read the book. I'm not a self-promoter, but I hope people read the book. If somebody listening now wants to read Conflicted Scars, and I hope many FOTMs listening do, do you have a preference for how they get a copy or you're like, just find it? Like, how do you get conflicted scars and average players journey to the NHL? Most people go through Amazon because it's the easiest thing.

They don't have to step foot off their couch and it gets delivered to the door. The other options are inside Indigo. So Indigo has been a great partner with this. And lastly, my publisher ECW Press as well sells it. So obviously I won't know people. The easiest is selling it in person, but yeah, if they order off there and recommend other people. I mean, I've realized in the writing the book business is that you are not going to make very much money off this and this is not going to be a life changer but i'm hoping that what's in the book what people read and even talking today that people just discover what's actually what

what how they can change hockey culture and how they can help well justin this is canada like our only hope is it doesn't cost you money to write a book right like i was steven brunt came over and we were talking he's the only goes mike the only books that make money in canada it has to be about hockey so you're on the right track but it has to be about hockey and it has to be available for christmas like that's the only chance you have of making money as a an author in canada so right but then you can't book in at bookstores and before christmas because there's so many people wanting to get in and i look at my book and it's on the bottom shelf well you got to write about sydney crosby that's That's right. No one wants to hear

a bad story. They just want the positive. But I, listen, listen, Toronto Mike enjoyed your, enjoyed your book very much. And I'm so glad you made the trek here. Like, I mean, we have touched on some things that have hopefully changed. Like we talked about like the blatant racism and I

mean, I mean the homophobia and this ridiculous like fascination with like nudity humiliation. I don, I mean, I mean the homophobia and the, this, this ridiculous like fascination with like nudity, humiliation. I don't know what to call it, but with the hazing and stuff, like hopefully we're starting to weed a lot of this out of the game. And now of course, hockey Canada has,

it's like, it's slush fun for paying off like the victims of sexual assault and all this horrible stuff we're hearing about. But like if you, Justin Davis, like, and this is a big question. So you can tell me like, Mike, I'm tapping. I don't have 90 minutes about but like if you justin davis like and this is a big question so you can tell me like mike i'm tapping i don't have 90 minutes but how would you fix hockey here we are talking in 2022 almost 2023 how would you fix hockey it seems broken well i think

that's a question that's where hockey can is reached out and i mean hockey hockey is not supposed to be for the world juniors and for people making the NHL. The hockey Canada's role is to introduce people to hockey, make it affordable, accessibility to more people, make it diverse, make it equitable, so people can discover the game. And if they become good players through there, then that's fantastic.

But should this be playing in the GTHL at $18,000 a year, 12 months a year with your skating coach, your mental skills coach and your nutritionist, that's not, that's not where hockey was supposed to be. So to change the culture, that's why we're introducing this program in Guelph, where we're just getting communities that don't play hockey,

would never try it and make it affordable so they can try it because people don't have $2,000 to discover if they like it. Like no one's, no one's saying, Oh, you want to try something? Oh, it's going to be $3,000. See if you like it. So we're trying to make it accessible. And I think that's where Hockey Canada has to reach out. And then with that, we have to develop community, positive culture, make it a positive experience. And when it looks diverse, when you see people that don't look like you out on the ice and you see

other people then it's easier and then the racism and the slurs disappear but when you go out in the game and every player you play against is white for it's awfully white like i will say my so my oldest son who played house league and at george bell actually, and loved his career. White dude, okay? Like me, like you, okay? But my youngest, he's at Mimico Arena, and so far so good. It's early in his house league career. He's only eight years old, but we have a practice tomorrow morning,

and we got a doubleheader on Sunday, okay? A couple of games we're going to be playing. But he's actually not a white guy. So it's like I'm sort of conscious of like oh i hope this is okay for him because i will say uh hockey seems to be awfully uh lily white and uh i wish it was as diverse as these these other sports that uh well and i i so our school we're we're partnered with athlete institute uh basketball academy where jamal murray taught jamal murray and thon maker and some other nba players and

you realize like how i like we played volleyball in class and we play floor high these kids pick it up like that so the the people playing in the nhl aren't the best athletes they're just the ones that have the most money and the most accessible our best athletes are going to sports like soccer and basketball where it's affordable and there's an entry point so when you talk about culture changing i think it's just making i love So when you talk about culture changing, I think it's just making, I love when, like I talked about the auto hockey camp, I love when people discover the game

and it's just so raw and it's, that's what it should be. Like your son should look forward to going out for breakfast, playing a double header, coming back, playing some road hockey and calling it a day. Like that's what hockey is.

It's not going with a mental skills coach at nine years old before you go to your power skillet and then you have chicken and rice for lunch, right? Right. So, yeah. Amazing. Thanks for writing this book, buddy. I want to just quickly here before we wrap up for real, I want to shout out a couple of wonderful podcasts beyond this one, Toronto Mic'd.

The Yes, We Are Open podcast is hosted by FOTM Al Grego. They're in season three. It's award nominee. I believe it won. It's an award winning podcast. Okay. Al's been traveling the country interviewing small Canadian businesses and he tells a story of their origin, their struggles and their future outlook. So go to yesweareopenpodcast.com. Subscribe to Yes We Are Open podcast. And Chris Cooksey's got a great podcast for Raymond James Canada called The Advantage Investor. Chris Cooksey, by the way,

the father of a young man who is dreaming of the NHL. So I'm really hopeful Chris Cooksey listens to this conversation. But The Advantage Investor provides valuable perspective for Canadian investors who want to remain knowledgeable,

informed, and focused on long-term success. So Justin Davis, amazing to have this conversation with you. Again, you don't leave here without your lasagna. And even though it's pitch dark outside, we're still taking a photo by the tree. People just have to just trust that it's us in that photo because it's going to be pretty dark out there. Thanks for coming, man. This was great. Perfect.

Thanks for having me. Speaking of 90s alt-rock, here's a little lowest of the low playing us out. And that brings us to the end of our 1,171st show.

You can follow me on Twitter. I'm at Toronto Mike. Justin, are you on any social medias or any way You can follow me on Twitter. I'm at Toronto Mike. Justin, are you on any social medias or any way we can follow your adventures? Yeah, I'm on Davos 12. So D-A-H-V-I-S 12. And that's at Instagram and on Twitter. Until Elon blows it up,

you're there just like me. We're going to go down to the ship. Our friends at Great Lakes Brewery are at Great Lakes Beer. I've got some beer for you on your way out. Palma Pasta is at Palma Pasta. You get the lasagna. Sticker U is at Sticker U.

Moneris is at Moneris. Raymond James Canada are at Raymond James CDN. Recycle My Electronics are at EPRA underscore Canada. Ridley Funeral Home are at Ridley F-H. Canna Cabana or at Canna Cabana underscore. And Sammy Cone Real Estate is at Sammy Cone.

That's K-O-H-N. See you all Sunday when my special guests are the duo from Altered by Mom. Great band I saw at the Alma Combo when I went to see Ron Hawkins

from Lowest to the Low, and they blew my mind, and they're going to be here talking about their music, and I can't wait. That's Sunday. See you all then. Thank you. And eight years of laughter and eight years of tears And I don't know what the future can hold or do

For me and you But I'm a much better man for having known you Oh, you know that's true because Everything is coming up rosy and green Yeah, the wind is cold But the smell of snow Wants me today And your smile is fine

And it's just like mine And it won't go away Cause everything is Rosy and gray Well, I've been told That there's a sucker born every day But I wonder who Yeah, I wonder who

Maybe the one who doesn't realize There's a thousand shades of gray Cause I know that's true, yes I do I know it's true, yeah I know that's true, yes I do I know it's true, yeah I know it's true How about you? Oh, they're picking up trash and they're putting down rogues And they're brokering stocks, the class struggle explodes

And I'll play this guitar just the best that I can Maybe I'm not and maybe I am But who gives a damn Because everything is coming up Rosy and gray Yeah, the wind is cold But the smell of snow warms me today And your smile is fine, it's just like mine and it won't go away

Cause everything is rosy and gray Well, I've kissed you in France and I've kissed you in Spain And I've kissed you in places I better not name And I've seen the sun go down on Chaclacour But I like it much better going down on you Yeah, you know that's true Because everything is coming up Rosy and green

Yeah, the wind is cold But the smell of snow Warms us today And your smile is fine And it's just like mine And it won't go away Because everything is rosy now Everything is rosy now Everything is rosy and

Everything is rosy and gray you