Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Karen Hines on Ken Finkleman's The Newsroom: Toronto Mike'd Podcast Episode 1918

Episode Date: June 16, 2026

On this 1918th episode of Toronto Mike'd, Mike chats with Karen Hines about her years on The Newsroom and what it was really like working with Ken Finkleman.A version of this podcast without programmatic ads is available to all Toronto Mike'd Patrons at patreon.com/torontomike.Toronto Mike'd, an award-winning podcast, is proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, Toronto Maple Leafs Baseball, Ridley Funeral Home, Nick Ainis, and RecycleMyElectronics.ca.If you would like to support the show, we do have partner opportunities available. Please email Toronto Mike at [e-mail]. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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means properly recycling our electronics of the past and Ridley Funeral Home Pillars of the Community since 1921 joining me today making her Toronto-Miked debut it's Karen Heinz

Hello Karen How's it going? Oh it's going okay This is a bit mangly getting to each other but here we are. Well, because originally, I thought you were going to be here in South Atobico. I thought so too.

Yeah, I thought so too. And I've had to be in Calgary for reasons that were not foreseen at the time. So, yeah, so the plan was to be there with you. But here I am in Calgary. There you are. And I moved it to Zoom and I realized I haven't done a remote because I make, I'm the asshole who makes people visit my base. been studio. Like, I don't know how many

podcasters are left doing that, but I do it. And I realize, I haven't actually done a remote since the furnace phase deep dive with Slow Tom, who was in Ottawa, and that was in March. Wow. Well, that's, yeah, that's a lot. I mean, it is, it is much nicer to be there. I have to

agree that that is the way to go, but you've done it before, you can do it again. Well, look, I made the exception because I really want to talk to you. So I've had this, like, Like an itch I've wanted to scratch since the VP of sales. I'm like, who's that? Okay.

Tyler Campbell invited me as his plus one for a West End Phoenix event at the Paradise Theater. Because he knows for a long time I've been trying to get Ken Finkelman to come on Toronto Mike. Oh, yeah. And the reason I wanted to talk to Ken is because I've had so many people over like Colin Brunton, for example, or he was great, or Jeremy Hots, like people like that come over

and they tell me these stories about Ken Finkelman that sound almost like they're fictional, like they're just wild stories. He's a wild character. Okay. So then what happens?

So I'm like, so this is a long way of saying explaining how this happened, but Tyler said, hey, Ken's on the, like, Bedini dug him up. Badini's got him at the Paradise. Like, you can like, I don't know,

confront him and, I don't know, kidnap him. And I don't know. And then I said, like, oh, Finkelman's going to be there. He seems to be laying pretty low. I'm like, that was wild. I said, I have to see this for myself. So I come out, I bike over to the Paradise. It was a great event. And after it, I'm like, forget Finkelman.

I don't want Finkelman anymore. I want Karen Hines. Well, that's, I'm blushing. I'm blushing. for those who can't see me right now. I am blushing. I'll confirm that she is blushing. But next time I'm looking at the MP for.

Well, great. And why? Let me ask you. Because you're on the panel. And there are a lot of, you know, interesting people on that panel with Ken Finkelman. And the vibe I got from you was that, like, oh, you were just so real.

Like, I just felt like there's no BS. Like, you just seemed to be, like, telling it like it was. there was no like spin, like no PR smoothness to it. Like you weren't rude. You were just sort of like refreshingly honest about everything, at least from my perspective. Well, I think he kind of taught me to be that way. So I felt like people were being very careful that night for obvious reasons.

You know, we're in public. And because Ken is 80, I think, or just turning 80. And so there was a lot of care. And I think Ken would not really be down with that. I think he was probably a bit, a bit. I mean, we were all kind of bewildered in that moment. But no, he taught me not to care. Okay, so this is a great teaser because I'm hoping we can,

maybe you can help us understand like who were you when you got the newsroom gig? And then if you don't mind, we could talk a bit about your time on the newsroom. And then we can learn more about, you know, Karen because now you're in Calgary and we can learn more about

your life post CBC. I feel I should throw CBC in there because someone's going to think it's that, you know, or Aaron Sorkin show. Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. You have to Google hard to find the newsroom that we were in. I think It's been like a retro, like we rebranded it, CBC's the Newsroom.

That's right, exactly, exactly. Yeah, or Ken Finkelman's, the Newsroom. Well, okay. Yeah. Well, I was actually first in a show that Ken wrote and directed called Married Life. That was his first project in Canada after having been in Hollywood for, you know, a number of years. who I was was probably at the height of my confidence in my life. I was working a lot at that time in TV and film.

I had sort of graduated from being at Second City for a few years on their touring company and on the main stage. So I was really comfortable improvising and I was getting work. And I heard that this was a show that was not finished, that the script wasn't complete, married life. And I was being asked to audition for it. And I was at my friend's cottage when I first got the call about the audition. And my agent, not my agent currently, but my agent at the time,

said, I think he's a hack. I don't think that this script is finished. So he wants improvisers to help finish it. And I said, no, I'm not leaving. I'm not leaving this cottage. And I got back from being out of town and the call went out again. I was asked to go in again. I didn't really want the job because I didn't need the job, first of all.

I was at the time, I was, you know, as flush as I've ever been. And I really didn't like the idea of Ken using people to finish his script and not paying us for it as writers. And so I said that to him in the audition. And I, you know, talk about being real, talk about being, you know, authentic. That was the reality. And he really appreciated that I said that. And he built it into the character of the wife in married life. And I became the character in that show who called his character out for being inauthentic.

and and so we had a relationship right off the bat that sort of carried through and I was not cast in the first season of the newsroom or the first let's say half season of the newsroom and I think that I was what what Ken said to me is that he felt that I didn't like him and that he didn't want me to not turn him down but he didn't think that he didn't think that I would want to do it, which was the farthest thing from the truth, because by the end of working on Married Life, which was a shit show, can I swear? Yeah, please. I love swears, absolutely. So it was in many ways a shit show, but it was also quite brilliant.

I think it's hard to find on YouTube or anywhere, but it was this largely improvised pseudo-documentary about a married couple first months together. and I kind of built on what Ken liked about my audition and I called him out in character in these improvised scenes for being a hack and for being unprofessional or, you know, whatever. And I think he took it really to heart. I think he thought that I was actually saying that about Ken. And I was kind of because I didn't yet know that married life was going to be this incredible piece of. comedy. And so he just, he didn't ask me for the first season. And then Jeremy went to shoot Speed 2 and, and he vanished, I think, days before they were starting shooting. And so I was called in. And all the, all the young male comics in the city were auditioning and, and Ken brought me

in and, you know, within, I think, I think I read maybe four lines and he said, done and just cast me. So I was in Angels in America at that time at Canadian stage, the first Canadian production of Angels in America. And I was rehearsing at that point. I don't know, I think I was performing by that point. But anyway, I would shoot a day on the newsroom and then literally jog from the CBC to Canadian stage, which is, you know, from, I don't know what is that street. It's like a, you know, 3K jog. And I would jog, so I would wake myself up.

after shooting all day to perform a three-hour show at night. Wow. Okay, I'm going to just jump in because a lot of meat on these bones here, Karen. But, wait, how does it feel having the name Karen? I feel like forever, that was a fine name. I know a lot of great Karen's. And then all of a sudden it became like a slur. Oh, yeah, yeah.

I mean, I think it was 2016 that it first started being used as a slur. But it wasn't ubiquitous until 2020. So it was the Central Park Karen who called out the birder. Right. The one who really sent it viral. And pretty soon after that happened, I kind of went off social media because I just saw my name being slagged through the med. But I'm currently writing a show and I will be performing it.

A show called My Name is Karen. I start off as myself and I basically get possessed by the meme Karen, you know, screaming middle-aged white woman, vaguely racist, angry. And but I do it. I do it, you know, it's actually kind of a literary piece. I'm doing it to sort of take apart the meme and what it means and what it says about our culture right now and society's streaming wounds. you know, how that Central Park Karen moment happened on the same day.

That was the same day that George Floyd died. And that was, you know, it's all, it's pretty hefty. I know a lot of Karen's who feel that their lives have changed with the meme. I met somebody recently who has changed her Karen named to Kaye and heard about somebody else whose last name is Thatcher, Karen Thatcher, who now goes by Thatcher. So it's pretty bad, but if I can make a comedy out of it, then it'll be much better. What you're doing, Karen, is you're making lemonade from those lemons. Out of lemons, you bet.

That's what I call it. Interesting, though, I do worry that society is dumbed down to a point where all that interesting analysis is going to go right over everybody's head. Well, I'm doing it for theater, right? So those people are a bit more, you know, intellectual. 100%. 100%. Also, I just want to point out, for it.

the listenership that married life was nominated for cable ace and Gemini Awards. That's right. That's a big deal. Yes. And yeah, I was actually nominated for my very own cable ace award. Which is, you know, again, this is the height. Like when you're asking who was I at that time, that was the height of my career. Like, everything was going my way.

This is the apex of the Karen Mountain. Right. Everything after Ken Finkelman has been downhill. to be discussed. Okay. I'll find it's all fascinating. Okay. So, and thank you for doing this, by the way, because we didn't, so yeah, you were going to be in the basement. And then you said, oh, I'm going to be in Calgary. And I said, well, this is how badly I want to talk to Karen Hines. We'll let you zoom. First Zoom since Slow Tom in Ottawa, that's a big deal. But then we had arranged it for it to be two o'clock today. So I'm, if you can imagine, I'm on the Zoom. I had just had Caden's weapon over here. Speaking of George, he wrote a whole great album. He's a rapper from Edmonton. Now he's based in Hamilton. But he lived Toronto for a long time before he moved to Hamilton,

before he got priced out of the Toronto real estate market. But he wrote a fantastic album that ended up winning a Polaris prize, believe it or not, based on the George Floyd murder. So just interesting that George Floyd came again. Okay, so it's 2 p.m. I'm on Zoom, and I'm sitting, where I am now, of course, I'm sitting here and I'm like, it's 2 o'clock. It's like, yeah, it's 202, 203. Okay.

And then I finally, because we were only texting, I didn't even have an email address. And it's like, I reviewed the texts. And I'm like, oh, it was definitely today at 2 o'clock, but I should have sent that one more text to say, just confirming you'll be on the Zoom tomorrow at 2 o'clock. And I didn't do that. So you get a pass.

Well, thank you. And I went back. I did the forensics as well. and I mean it's all my fault but I went back We first agreed on the 16th Then you had to change that Because of this is going to be so boring for your audience

No I don't care about my audience It's all about me keep going You had to change from the 16th To the 17th Because of your son's birthday I said Oh no, convocation Yeah

Because my son, yeah my son's convocation is tomorrow Oh convocation okay So I don't know I don't have kids Convocation birthday, same thing for me. But you only get one convocation. You have a birthday every year, Karen. Got it.

Don't be such a Karen. So then we, so that we, so I agree to the 17th, but I said maybe the 15th would be better because I might be traveling on the 17th. Right. So then you agree to the 15th. Somehow I had already put the 17th in my calendar and I didn't change it. I was doing, that was when I was in Toronto with the newsroom stuff. I was seeing people from, you know, I was seeing Matt Watts.

And I was like, I wasn't keeping track of my calendar. So then I texted you again later to say that I couldn't be there in person. It was going to have to be a Zoom on the 17th. But you didn't correct me when I said the 17th. You know, let's share the blame. We'll saw it off in the middle. And as you tell, it is now 721 p.m. And it's funny when you said, oh, this is going to bore the listenership, that detail, that minutiaa.

because in Radio Land, because I produce a show for former radio guys, Humble and Fred here in Toronto, and their old program directors would shoot them if they did that bit, but they do that stuff on the podcast because it is my belief that those stupid details are actually kind of part of the, that's part of the seasoning of this whole thing. I love that. And I think it's true, I have to say. Like, I like it. And I like it when they peel back the curtain.

Now we're literally like talking about our calendars now. That's right. Okay. Okay, back to the subject, the matter. Because I'm going to hit you of a mind blow here because you mentioned speed too. But I just want to say, Mary Life, big cult hit. So you've got the rapport with Ken. But he didn't invite you to be a part of the newsroom initially because he didn't think you liked him.

Yeah. He thought, I thought he was a hack and that I wouldn't want to do it. And he actually said that to me when I went into audition. And remember, this is like two or three days before we started shooting. He said, he said something like that. He said, you don't like me. And I said, not really. I'm playing because this is our relationship.

But I did like him in the sense that I never had a more interesting director in that world. never had more fun on any television or film project than I had with Ken. Even when it was stressful, even when I didn't know if it was going to be good, it was always really interesting. You know, we did this one scene in married life where he wanted to break down the fourth wall. And then it got into this like incredibly complicated scene where he's in the shots. So does that mean that the fifth wall has come down? And like, you know, it just, I cannot do it justice.

You really have to see it. But it was always complicated. And so much of the time doing television and film work is not complicated. It's just like some lame script that sort of catches in my throat. And I, you know, I don't do much of it anymore. I don't like to audition for stuff because it's just, it's like bad, dialogue and Ken's dialogue was so always subversive or confusing on purpose and very often I didn't have interesting things to say the more my character developed as Karen in the newsroom my character

I think became less and less interesting when I was Jeremy that first season I was fascinating because I was being a guy in as a producer too. news producer. Okay, so just so, because I'm, I've had Jeremy on a couple times he's been over here, and I, I always spend far too much time on the newsroom when Jeremy Hots comes over, but he's, you know, he's a sweetheart, he like entertains it all. But like, so does he leave midway through the first season of the newsroom, or does he finish that first season? Well, it depends on what you really call the first season. Some people call the first six episodes, the real first season.

Technically or formally, there were 12 episodes in the first season. Is there a gap between, like you filmed, there was six and then a gap and then they started the next six? Yeah, there was quite a gap. Okay, so why isn't that two seasons?

I don't know. I think it's some CBC thing, some legal thing, some of it. Like who gets... Okay, because I heard you say this. Yeah, sorry for talking over you there, but that's the one In person, that's a much easier vibe when you're talking over. I know.

Because I'm not actually looking at you anymore because now I'm just sort of like, you know. But okay, so when I asked Jeremy about this, because there is this perception out there because you actually echoed this at the paradise and you just repeated it on Toronto mic like about, I don't know, 10 minutes ago. But there's a perception out there that Jeremy Hots leaves the newsroom to film Speed 2. Yeah. Yeah. Except Jeremy doesn't tell the story that way because I asked him about that.

And Jeremy says he left to do Speed 2 because he never got an offer to do those next six episodes. He never got an offer from. That's what he says. Wow. That's, you know, I can't argue with that because I wasn't there. But what I do know is that the scripts all said Jeremy. See, see, I should have pulled the clip. But absolutely, because I actually, you know, at the end, they did a Q&A with the audience.

And I had a moment when I'm sitting, I was sitting beside Don McKellar. Do you know that? No. I know. So, and, and I was in line beside Mark McKinney. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

It was a pretty star-studded audience. Absolutely. At least a few stars. Those are two big ones right now. Two studs. But I know. I almost, you know, that you know, you put up your hand and somebody brings you a microphone or whatever. That's how Q&A's work, Karen. Let me mansplain this to you. But I almost put up my hand to echo the story that Jeremy Hots told me, which is that he only did Speed 2 because he never got an offer to go back to the newsroom.

And he was disappointed. He never got this offer to go back to the newsroom. So, but it is absolutely the story that's out there is the one that you tell. And the one I'd always heard was that he left the newsroom to do Speed 2. Well, that's certainly the story as I heard it. And what I heard is that he left very, like really just a few days before we started shooting. You know what? You know what I will do? I will, for FOTM cast, which is coming up by everybody, I will pull the clip of Jeremy telling him his side of that story.

Again, three sides to every story. But that is an interesting little tidbit that maybe that's not how it went down. But okay. So then basically, regardless, he does do speed two. Can't remember. Huge box office hit, right? Very successful speed, too, right? No. Trying to remember now.

Yeah. Okay, Sandra Bullock and Jeremy Hots. Yeah, okay. Anyways, yeah, it was a bomb. But there was no Keanu Reeves. What was going to happen there? No, Kianna. No, that's right.

I think, you know, it was obviously way more money than we were making in the newsroom. We were making minimum. Maybe not everybody, but I think most of us were making the, minimum actor rates for that kind of show. But it was like I guess, I mean, again, there's a Canadian scale and then maybe an American scale, whatever, but in the Canadian world, the newsroom was a hit. Yeah. Like I was appointment viewing for me and my buddies.

Like we treated it like it was the Larry Sanders show. Yeah. Oh yeah. It was and it was. And some people would say that it's more complicated than the Larry Sanders show, that the fact that it deals with politics and Canadian broadcasting and that sort of thing, that it's. got stuff going for it that the Larry Sanders show does not have. But then there are a lot of people who claim that it's just a rip-off of the...

Well, because I should... Larry Sanders comes first. Yeah. And they do have some parallels. But I mean, I love the newsroom. Absolutely loved it. I didn't, you know, it just seemed first class. And I loved how it was written.

I loved how it was acted. I loved how it was filmed. I loved it. I loved it, too. I just loved it. And there's, for me, there's been nothing like it ever since, obviously. It's, you know, I mean, it's a one-off. But, yeah, I miss it.

I miss the kind of thing that it was. I miss, I miss. I was able to be in a few other of Ken's shows after Newsroom, so foreign objects. And there were a couple kind of less than perfect ones, the Newsroom, the movie. which I don't think was great. But it was just working with Ken was a real thrill. Okay, so we're going to dive into Ken for a moment here. Yeah.

So can I ask you, like, did Ken write the scripts? Because this was a question that came up, but somebody was wondering aloud, I think, at this, a Paradise panel thing. Shout out to Dave Bidini for putting that together. Hook that to my veins, okay? but people think oh it's a bit like

curbier enthusiasm there's an outline and then you actors improvise and then somebody said it was like the opposite like that you had to it was written scripted and you read it as it was written on the page can you clarify that for me

like did Ken Finkelman write the script and then your job as an actor was to say it as written yeah that was the idea but Ken would be the first to name a scene that was bad, that wasn't working, and he would open it up. And there were, especially in the first seasons, like, you know, second half of season one and season two, there were more of us in the cast who

were improvisers. And so we were able to harsh things with him and break it down and come up with ideas. is he would allow, he allowed me, especially as time went on, he allowed me to improvise my, not my whole scenes, but improvise parts of my scenes because he would say, I don't know how to write for women. And, you know, my argument with him was always, you were better writing for me as a woman when you wrote me and as Jeremy. Right.

That was my best. role ever as a woman. But he, yeah, he would let me. In married life, there was tons of improvisation. And Jeremy was in that, and Mark Farrell was in that, and Robert Kate, we were all improvisers or stand-ups. And so a lot of, because that show was not finished when we started, but Ken did bring finished scripts in with him for newsroom, they just sometimes had soft spots.

And he would let those of us who wish. to or were able to improvise. Okay, do you think you were written better when you were Jeremy because he wasn't writing a woman? He was writing a human? Yeah, he was writing a news producer. And so it was all about the news. And when he started writing me as a woman, you know, suddenly I had a period and suddenly I had a boyfriend and suddenly I had things that had nothing to do with the news. And then his character began to be more irritated by me because I was so female.

And in the very first scenes that I shot, episodes that I shot, you know, I was like there was no time to alter Jeremy's lines. I was really just talking about the news with him. And sometimes about food, right? Like, it wasn't always just the news about food,

about cars and golf. You know, like, you know, but I didn't get to talk about golf when I was evolved as Karen. Can I, I'm going to give the listenership. I got that name from Scruff, Connors on Q and 07, the listenership, so I drop it, you know, liberally here and there. But I want to just play a little of a scene from, I guess this is episode 8 from the first season.

I'm just going to play a bit here. I don't know why you attacked him so viciously. What was there to be gained? It was a mistake. I was out of control. Well, at least I didn't leave it on his voicemail. Anyway, are you sure the drop has been made at this box? Yeah, yeah, that's tomorrow's.

Good, good, good. I can't believe you actually called him a self-loathing hack. Let me. I'd taken some painkillers. I was in a very strange hallucinogenic state. I thought the doctors cut you off and they found out you were doubling up on the prescriptions. Listen, that was taken care of, all right?

Okay, ass a cup, Colin, inside. There we are. Here it is. Here it is. Pass a cup. John has a cup. Here we go. Okay, what's he saying here? American primetime garbage, da-da-da-da.

British brilliance, da-da-da-da-da. His old drinking problem, the 60s. Didn't mention me. Didn't mention him. You're kidding. That's great. I don't think you should phone a critic. Even if you're going to thank him, it's not a good idea.

Yeah. Just trust me on this. John Hasse the cup doesn't like a compliment. There's something wrong with the world, okay? Yeah, but you maybe shouldn't phone him with a compliment. I don't, I don't think it's a good idea. Wait until you see him again. Voice mail.

Hang up. Hang up. Hang up. Hang up. Hang up. John, this is George Finley, and I want to say, you know, my explosion today was really uncalled for. I, as I said, I'd taken some perka dance for a root canal, and I've really been one of your biggest fans for years. You are really quite brilliant and courageous, you know, with a style that's a lot like Gorvado and Truman Capote. You know, all of you, you know, put your personal life into your observations, and I think that that takes courage, and that's it. Give my best to your family and we'll meet again.

Bye-bye. I think that was good. I think that was fine. Well, the Truman Capote thing that I've been a bit over that top. It sounded like maybe you were sucking up to him. Yeah. It's true. Yeah, but you left it on his voicemail.

See, he can play it over and over again. And when he does, it's going to sound like you're kissing ass. Plus, you said courage twice. Yeah. That's redundant. Wrong, Ron. Ron. I did not say courage twice.

I'm pretty sure you did. I said, I said, courageous. and courage. Well, it's the same thing. He will hear that. He's a writer. You should have found another word. It's the same thing.

What, it would be, splitting hairs here? I mean, this is ridiculous. I gave the guy a compliment. The guy's going to love a compliment. You read the guy a compliment. It sounded like you were reading it. And then you said, you said, I had taken some perky dance for a root canal,

and I've been one of your biggest fans for years. You ran those two together with your two separate thoughts. Oh, how about this? You gave your best to his family. We don't know if he's got a wife. or kids. I mean... He might have no family.

He's got parents, he's got cousins. Everyone has a family, okay? So you just gave your best to his cousins and you don't think you were kissing his ass. You should have hung up. You should have hung up. Okay, I let that run.

I was going to do like 20 seconds and then I actually was enjoying it, I'm going to run. I'm talking over you again now, sorry. No, just that I normally wouldn't play all two and a... Well, that's about three minute clip, actually. But it was like a radio,

but that would work so brilliantly. as a podcast, to be honest, like as a radio play. Yes, it would. It's, okay, so that is a really great scene to kind of break down in terms of your questions. So I just, I love that so much. And I'm in it. I don't ever love things that I'm in. I love that scene.

I know, and also listening to it makes me realize that I'm kind of full of shit in terms of what I've just said to you about, like, oh, I could to improvise and stuff like that. I did get to improvise, but it was with Ken. He was always guiding it. So that scene wasn't, it was written much like that to begin with, but he worked with me and Mark to kind of like break it down a bit more. You know, we're handing the papers back and forth, the thing that he was reading from to make his voicemail recording.

And we probably worked on that scene like for an hour, just sharpening it, sharpening it, sharpening it, sharp. it's all coming from Ken. I maybe threw in like my two sort of lame things from my brain, which is like, he's a writer. I think I added that. And then I said, he might have no family. And I think those are the only two things that I made up. The rest of it was all like in, in concert with him and with Mark coming up with it all together.

Okay. And that was written for Jeremy. That was written for Jeremy. Yeah, because it's episode eight. The original scene probably like just, you know, mathematically speaking, if that scene was, if that whole section was three minutes, I think you said, probably my memory of it, and it was one of the first things I shot, so I remember it well. My memory of it was that it was probably two minutes. We made it three by adding stuff, but again, with Ken's direction, guidance, words. Okay.

So he's admitted at the time he would admit to you. he struggled to write for a woman, a woman character. And he would welcome your feedback and revisions, improvisations. Not always. I mean, you saw an episode that night that I hated. It was the one episode I really loathed. And where my character is matched up with a disgusting small monster of a man because Ken wants me to have a date

so that I will be in a better mood. So when I brought my loathing of that scene, those scenes to him, no, he had no interest in what I had to say. But there was another scene that you saw that night where I described each of the characters that Ken and the other male news producers were turning into a series.

and I did sort of like a Bible breakdown of each of their characters. And then a Bible breakdown of my character. The Bible breakdown of the male characters were they were Kins. I didn't like the Bible breakdown of my character, so I asked him if I could make something up. He said, dude. And then we shot it without him even listening to it first. And then he would probably have fixed it,

maybe added something to it, maybe taken something to make it shorter. There's always him in control. But when I told him this doesn't seem real to me, he would listen sometimes, but only sometimes. Okay, because I mentioned Colin Brunton and Jeremy Hots and others who worked with, actually, I talked to Andrew Stokely who worked on Airplane 2, okay? so. Airplane 2. Not as good as Airplane 1. We'll put that in the Speed 2 category of disappointing sequels, I suppose.

Yeah. Yeah. But it sounds like Ken Finkelman, as brilliant as he was, as a writer, director, creator that he could be very difficult to work with. Like, maybe, dare I say, some people's experience would think, oh, what an asshole. Yes, asshole is probably the first word a lot of us would use. But in a really affectionate way, he, yeah, he could be on my, one of my first days on Married Life, we were shooting in an apartment, and he was down at the end of a long hallway

and around the corner. And he was at the monitor. and I think I talked about this then you were there, but he yelled down the hall, not so fake Ivy. So he didn't use my real name. He used my character's name because he couldn't remember my name. And he yelled, not so fake Ivy.

And he had been doing that on a fairly regular basis, like yelling my directions. And, you know, typically unflavoured. mattering directions, directions, things you typically don't want people to hear when you're the actor. But I walked down the hall and I turned around the corner and he looked terrified. And I just said, Ken, if you have a direction to give me, could you please come and give it to me in person or, you know, up close or something like that? And he didn't, I don't think he were, his eyes were wide. And again, that was like a building block for our relationship. Like that became

He enjoyed that. He enjoyed me calling him out. He enjoyed that aspect of his male-female relationship with me. And I felt quite free with him that I could do that. And that didn't mean that he was never an asshole again. He certainly was. But the fact that I could call him on it was great. And you get that a lot with, Not so much anymore. I think directors have to be more pristine in their behavior. But that was not atypical. And I don't know if you can hear that. Carl, I'm going. No, no.

You can't hear it. I guess Zoom's filtering it out. Great. So, yeah. So anyway, it was, yeah, he also would sometimes, you know, call me names. Like, he would. And he would do. that with a lot of people. He would be

sort of insulting. But it was never mindless. It was always kind of fun. And it was hard. It was crunchy, but way more interesting than working with people who were trying to be pristine.

At least you knew where you stood with Ken. Okay, you just touched on it, but I was naturally wondering, like, because this show, you know, midnight, well, it starts up in 96-97. So man I'm thinking now I was like my early 20s no wonder I gobbled this up like it was like they hooked this to my veins but I wonder can a show like the newsroom be created like by a man

like Ken Finkelman in 2026 no I don't think so I don't think so there was there was so much sort of unfiltered action going on and also the comments content was pretty dark at times in a way that I think TV audiences are not looking for at the moment. It was, yeah, and just the looseness with which he, I mean, again, he did, you know, again, I'm going to call myself on being full of shit. As time went on, his scripts became more and more polished, more and more done, because they had to be. But those early days, where things were sort of where I think he purposefully left things kind of undone. It was so exciting to be part of that.

And I don't think that you can do that now, unless you're doing a very, very low budget thing, unless you're in control, unless you are your own producer. Okay, so I'm going back to that night at the Paradise. I feel like I'm going to write a song, Paradise by the Dashboard Light or something like that. Okay, so Peter Callahan was there. He's a good guy? he's a very good guy

okay I get good vibes from him I'm just checking in with Karen and make sure okay so we're not we're not at all close like he's kind of like his character with me in the world he's very he's very remote

sort of yeah distant but a very good person very kind so there was one of my favorite moments beyond your refreshing takes on things which have you keep calling yourself out on the bullshit that's how refreshing you are, Karen, that you're even calling yourself out multiple times, you know, so I love it. Okay. But Peter Callahan, no, Ken Finkelman, by the way, how did you think Ken

was that night? Like, how long had it been since you were in the same space as Ken Finkelman? And how different was that Ken Finkelman, what, you said he's probably, like, in his early 80s now, like, or 80 or so, like, was that a different version of the Ken you knew? Like, I'm just curious, who was that Ken on stage with you at Paradise? Before I get to this. Peter question. Sure. Yes, it was a very different, Ken, in that he, I think he was overwhelmed by the situation.

He's so uncomfortable, you know, running into somebody on the street, not remembering their name. I've seen that happen with him. And he can be very, very awkward. So it was like that times a hundred. You know, there are so many of us, and we've all aged, right? We're all like 20 years older. He laid eyes on me at first.

He did not know who I was. And then he went, you're gray. And, you know, he's, he, um, so same can, but different circumstances. Um, yeah. And, um, but, you know, he, I, I think he settled into it. And, uh, I think it was very, not something that he does calmly. Well, that was the whole thing. I was shocked.

I was shocked that he told Bidini he'd be there. And I didn't even believe it until I said, song like on the stage. Like it was one of those things. I'll believe when I see it. Because it's been so long, I'm a bit of a white whale. Like, you know,

and it wasn't happening. And then they're always going to be on stage with Bidini. Maybe he's a big Rio Statics fan or something. I don't know. But, but, Ken Finkelman told a story about how Peter Callahan got that job. I'm trying to remember now.

Somebody was on recently who said they tried out for that role. And it might have been Patrick McKenna. Huh, right. Yeah, Pat would have been good at that too. Oh, yeah, so should I finish my thought? Okay, unless you wanted to chime in there. No. Okay.

Because I'm sick on my own voice at this point. But the story that Ken told was Peter kept calling him or something, I would phone him all the time. And he said, you're giving me the job. Like, Peter, he told the story like Peter would just keep calling him, like, begging to get the role. And then finally Ken's like, okay, you've got the role or something. Do you remember this story that Ken?

whole? Yeah, I'm, can you remind me though? Yeah, like it was basically that, which was that in detail, Ken said, Peter kept calling his, you know, his, obviously it was a landline back then and, and basically saying, I'm the guy for this role, you have to give me this role or something like that. Like, he would almost like just keep phoning Ken to say, hire me, I'm the guy for this role.

And then Ken says he gave him the role. But then at some point shortly thereafter, the mic, the microphone, phone got back to Peter and Peter said none of that was true. Do you remember this? So Peter I do.

Yeah. So there's a moment of like, so Kim goes on the story of it doesn't make Peter look great. I mean it's not, I've heard worse, but yeah, but and then Peter's like,

that never happened. And I just thought that's interesting. Like, like did Ken make that up? Did he mistake him for somebody else? I just, it was just an interesting moment for me as a fan of the show.

Well, I think it's possible that Ken didn't make it up, but that maybe say it was Patrick who was calling him. Right. Right. I don't think either of them are liars. And so somewhere between the two of them, you know, like you and me today with this time and date. You know, it's like somewhere between the two of us. There's a truth. Right.

And I, yeah. So, okay. So, I mean, I didn't know if, you know, just Ken, some people, when they tell a story sometimes, what is it? Kramer sold his stories on Seinfeld like to Peterman or whatever, but sometimes it's like people will add a lot of flavor to a story where it barely resembles the truth anymore. But it was just interesting that Peter called him out like on the spot, like shortly thereafter. Like that did not happen. It was just funny. Well, that is, you know, that really is part of the atmosphere that Ken cultivated, right?

Like he, as much as people were very careful at the beginning of that Q&A, I think where we got to finally was a bit more honest. I think you did it though because I felt like you must have felt it too but I was like oh please don't be one of those safe PR exercises or whatever like we're so many years removed you know you don't have to within reason you could give us because I had I had a bunch of stories where basically it made Ken seem like a bit of a control freak asshole and I just wanted I needed to hear a little like real talk from the paper.

panel. And you started to deliver it. That's why I said to Tyler. I said, oh, it's Ken we want. It's Karen Hines. That's who I want. Well, you know, I guess I kind of cracked it open a bit, right? And I think I did that because sort of on purpose. It was on purpose. Because I thought, here we are all together. Here Ken is. He's 80. Like, let's get to the real. And so, yeah, I was. But again, it's the same. For, you know, in the spirit of that, that's why I keep calling myself out for being full of shit. Because what I know is that he also didn't have perfect scripts that he walked in with. Very rarely was there a script that were something significant, wasn't changed.

However, I'm also maybe a bit over-excited because it was thrilling for me to be able to improvise with such perfect guardrails. So I wasn't making stuff up and creating content that wasn't there. I was being directed by Ken to use my own words to say what he was trying to say anyway, just in a way that maybe felt more natural. But do you feel you should have had a little more credit from Ken for helping with the script? I always wanted more credit, but I knew that it wasn't coming. And I think that I think that in the, when I did sign for the newsroom, with married life, we had no idea what was happening. It was all surprise and new territory. Going into the newsroom, I knew that I was probably going to be called upon to improvise a little bit.

I also knew that it was going to be with very strict guidelines from Ken. And so I did, I wanted more money. Like I did say that to him. At one point, I said, I tried to pussyfoot around it. I said, you know, credit, this, that. And then I said, can I just want more money? And so he just said, done. And so I didn't get more credit, but I got a little bit more money.

And it was, so I don't know where this started. No, but to me, okay, well, that's a little more money. But of course, it's fair to say you were never compensated as you should have been for the role you had on a show. that was that big in Canada. But I got to be on that show. And it was the best thing I ever got to be on. So, you know, I think my agent suggested that I get credit. And it was just clear, no, no.

And fair enough, it really was his. The fact that I use the word writer, or maybe he has no family, like, that's not, that's not at the core of it all, right? I was cosmetic and happy to be there and really happy to be able. Because then my acting was better. The more I got to add my own things in, the better my performance was. So what's wrong with that?

So yes, it was always a thing. And I probably raised it every year that I would like to get credit. And every year the same answer came. And no. And it's fine. At this time, why? Okay, here's a silly question of a guy who's never worked in your industry. but like I would watch an American show

on I don't know ABC or NBC or Fox or whatever and they would have like 23 episodes for the season or something like that right it was like you know the Simpsons it was always 23 episodes or something like that but how come in the entirety of the newsroom

three seasons however they counted it at the CBC I don't even like how they counted it we should be a forensic analysis of that but the grand total of episodes we got of the newsroom was 32 Mm-hmm. Like, is that just because we were trying to be British, you know, that was like, okay, the office was going to be six episodes or whatever. I think it's because Ken didn't have a writing room, right?

It was all him. Even the soft spots that he brought in, right? He didn't have six people. At the time, it would have been six guys sitting around a table and, you know, breaking off and writing scenes. it had to be controlled by Ken and not in a control freak way. That's just the genius he was. And so he wrote his shows in his office, in his house, on his third floor or something. And, you know, he talked about kind of going into a trance, right?

Like he would sit down, he would know what the elements of a certain episode were. And then he would just write. and he did have, I think, by the final episodes because he was getting tired and the last season, I think, had the most episodes in the shortest period of time. And he did have Matt Watts and Doug Bell as I guess he described them as creative advisors

or creative consultants or something, which meant that they kind of hung out in his house and ordered... pizza and talked. And role woman characters. And, you know, would I have loved to have been in that room? Yeah, but it wasn't, it was a guy thing. It was really a guy thing.

So I wasn't ever going to be in that. Guy thing, but also it was a white guy thing. Yes, definitely. Definitely a white guy thing. Yep. Yeah. Okay. And I went to the wiki page because you got to start somewhere.

and I learned from the wiki page that PBS aired these shows. So this Patrick McKenna Chattah had, which was great. He talked about how red-green aired on PBS and it had this American cult following or whatever. Is there an American following for CBC's The Newsroom? Yeah, there is. I think it's pretty small. But it was on PBS, so it had that audience, access to that audience.

And that's a smart audience. they could handle this dialogue. Yeah, definitely. And when I went to Los Angeles one time to visit my friend Bruce McCullough from the kids in the hall, we went to the, this is such an L.A. story. It's my favorite L.A. story. We went to the Ivy, and as we were being seated, the bartender saw me and said, you're Karen from the newsroom.

Wow. And did not, didn't recognize. We're so used to Bruce being recognized me in his friends. But that was, so yeah, I got, I got recognized by a waiter at the Ivy, so I know that that show played in America. Well, I love to hear it because I just know what I catch on CBC here. But I name-checked Mark McKinney earlier. And then we talked about Larry Sanders show, which would at some point features Scott Thompson. And now you just drop Bruce McCullough.

That's three-fifths of the kids in the hall. Yeah. Yeah, well, we're all kind of, you know, we all sort of float in the same atmosphere. Oh, yeah, and again, when I'm tuning my appointment viewing at that time of the newsroom, I also was appointment viewing of kids in the hall. Okay. So one last thought on that. I think I said I'll take an hour. So I am going to wrap up.

And you're going to have to very succinctly tell me, what happened to you post newsroom, Karen? Oh, we can be post. But first, okay, but first, before. when the Aaron Sorkin newsroom arrives and was kind of a big deal, especially that first episode, I think it was kind of all downhill from there, to be honest, because I watched it. The first episode was really good,

and then it was very disappointing thereon. But that's just my opinion. But were you at all? I was kind of pissed that this American network called itself the newsroom, and I was like, that's bullshit. We have the newsroom. Yeah. It really bothered me at the time.

I think it bothered most of us. When I say us, I mean the casts of the various casts of the newsroom. I have no idea why Ken said yes to that. Well, that does not bury that lead. So according to Ken Finkelman, HBO contacted him and asked for permission to use the title, The Newsroom for the Aaron Sork in 2012 series. And Ken Finkelman says to HBO, apparently, yeah, I'm not going to. use it anymore, you can have it, or something

that's a paraphrase, obviously. I wasn't on the call. Well, you can't copyright titles, right? So that's the way Ken rolls. He rules Hollywood style. And that would be the quintessence of his But is that a music thing? I think that's a music thing. I feel like I can't go start

a show and call it all in the family. Yeah, you can, I think. Well, you would know. Well, he told me that you can't, that he felt that he couldn't claim that title for himself. Okay, but there was a show. I think the reason they call Saturday Night Live, Saturday Night Live, is because I think there was a show called Saturday Night. Like, I thought, okay. I mean, maybe I'm wrong on this.

I thought it was songs. Like, you can't, you're right. I can put out a song and call it help. And the Beatles can't do jack shit about it. But I thought you could, maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think you can just reuse a. maybe I'm wrong. Karen, what do I know? If you look up, I mean, it happens at theater all the time.

People use titles because nobody knows about the other shows because it's theater. Right. But in this case, because it's TV, the thing is that the newsroom, our newsroom was so small, that newsroom was so big that it was no skin off their nose to have the same title. It just kind of ruined it for us, you know, our pride in our newsroom show. It was the weirdest thing that he did that. He just claimed that that's the way it is that he legally, he had no claim to the title. And so he left him take it.

Yeah, interesting. But, you know, he could have said, I'd prefer you not do that. But I don't know. Ken was just like, by the time he talked about this the night that you were there with us all. it's it's kind of like he just made stuff and then moved on it was like a fish right like a fish like the fish eats the thing and then the little you know trail comes out of their bum and it's like that's what that's like kem was just constantly eating and you know moving on eating and moving on and he was not precious okay in that way but i think he was really proud of that show though well he should be Yeah. I mean, Patrick McKenna was on traitors, and I watched a bit of traitors to remind myself before he came over. It ain't no newsroom.

I'm here to tell you, we haven't had a show as good as the news, a scriptage series as good as the newsroom since. And you can see in, if you really examine episodes, you can see that there are places where it's rough around the edges, where like a certain, you know, a certain episode might be not as strong as another. but overall the very existence of it is brilliant. It's just so unlike anything else. All right, Karen. Even though Ken borrowed from, what was it? Larry Sanders? Yeah, even though Ken, and he was very upfront about that.

He borrowed from that. It would be tough to hide from that one. Yeah, yeah. That's a tough one. Okay. Now, Karen, post-newsroom, I think newsroom, you'll tell me, but I believe it's all done by like 2006 or something like that. Does that sound like that?

Yeah. That's 20 years ago. That's right. That's right. Even earlier, I think. Yeah, it is 22, 2004, I think, was our last shooting anyway. And so since then, I do theater. I've done tons of theater.

I'm always working, mostly writing my own stuff, very often for myself to perform. but often for other people to perform. It's all dark comedy. I learned so much about writing, working with Ken. I put it to use those experiences. And I write satire. So, you know, I'm happy to... I really don't think that I could be writing as well as I do.

And, I mean, that's arguable, right? You haven't read my writing, but I think that... You don't know that. I do thorough research. Karen. I think I'm a much better writer for having been in Ken's shows than I would be without having been in them. Okay. And you were in Headwig in The Angry Inch, right? Yes. Yes, my lines were, you're not on the list. You're not on the list. I had a kind of bigger role, and then they had to cut the scenes that I was in. But that was truly wonderful as well, actually.

That was a highlight. Working with John Cameron Mitchell as Hedwick was not like working with Ken, but it was wonderful. Two quick, before we say goodbye, two quick hits. One is that I couldn't help but notice your first IMDB credit is hanging in. I remember hanging in. Yes, yes. Well, and that's another example. I'm just not a normal actor.

That episode, I had a terrible part, and I finally convinced the director to let me shake it up and let me use my own words a bit. And then I was able to do it. And Lali Kadeau, who was one of the stars of that show, said, she is a real actor. And I don't know why that would be because I was actually just not being a real actor. I couldn't do what I was supposed to do. A terrible actor, really, really quite terrible. And you said you toured with SCTV there, but was there anybody in your,

I don't know what you call it, your class or your troop or whatever that we might have heard of? You might have heard of Kathy Greenwood. Okay. Yeah, you might have heard of, oh, no, I'm going to start blanking on names, but you might have heard of a couple dudes who are like writers on other people's shows. Okay.

Yeah. Okay, just curious. Theresa Pavlach. Teresa was... You know, we're ready for my invitation of her. Ready? Oh, yeah? Okay.

Chicken and stuffing and pie. Oh, my. Does that mean anything to you? Yes. And it's terrible. I almost feel like, that's what I go to, but that's literally when I hear that name, I think. Chicken and stuffing and pie, oh my. This is a Swiss chalet commercial, right?

You got it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So you've been amazing. but now I just need to ask you how you ended up in Calgary because I know you're raised in Toronto, right?

Like, you're not, I guess you're born in Chicago. So you're one of those Americans. Oh my goodness. Dual Canadian. My parents are Canadian. So yeah, born in Chicago, my parents moved to Toronto when I was four. And then I lived in Toronto until about 2006. And soon after the newsroom ended and soon after, I had a 2008, no, that's 2008.

I wrote a show called Crawl Space, which is on CBC. You can hear it on Play Me. It's a podcast. And it was a disaster. The long story short is that the house was not, the bones were not good. A raccoon ended up dying underneath the house and nobody could get it. And I had to live with that for a long time. And anyways, it's a long story, but I was so exhausted at the end of trying to deal with this house for two years that my boyfriend at the time said, come to, we had a long distance relationship, which is why I, this is getting really.

No, I'm like popping popcorn over here, Karen. This is the good stuff. What's happening with your boyfriend there? Okay. We had a long distance relationship that was starting to fall apart because I was in Toronto all the time trying to look after this house. And then I was like kind of broken down by the whole experience. And he said, just come here and rest for a while. And so I went to Calgary to rest for a while and I never went.

And you're still resting in Calgary? Still resting in Calgary. Yes. What neighborhood in Toronto was this rotting raccoon carcass take? What neighborhood was that in? Well, the realtor called it Roncesville Village, but it was Parkdale. Okay. So I was born at St. Joe's in Parkdale.

So, you know, I guess a lot of people were, a lot of people were born there, I suppose. Yes, yes, a lot of people were born there. But I, okay, so, but the real estate person decided to call that Ronses because it gets more cash, I guess, than parking. That's right, yeah. This house was tiny. This house, this house was at the time, I think I paid $279,000 for it for a house. Well, Helens Kay, so I'm trying to do this because my boy who is, graduating tomorrow, which is why we had to do this today.

Okay. Or the day after tomorrow. Yeah. My first wife was pregnant with him and we bought our first home on Islington and ready for this, that house cost us. It was just a bungalow on a busy street. But that was a $205,000 house. What year?

2002. Right. Right? Wow. I know. So isn't that wild? Like it's just when I think back because I mean, yeah. Now just add a million and you're there, I guess. But exactly. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Anyway, I live in Calgary, but I spend a lot of time in Toronto. As you see, I hopped over for that. Ken Finkelman event. Well, Badini asked you, right? Bidini asked me, yeah. You don't say no to Dave Bidini? No, you don't. No, you don't. So how about this? At some point, like, did, if you ever are in Toronto, I don't know.

I'll buy you a beer or a coffee if you don't drink. I don't know. Do you drink? I do. I do. I don't drink with beer, but I can drink a beer, but I can drink more wine. Well, anyways, you know, it would be nice to meet you, but I want to say thank you for this. I said I do an hour.

I took like an hour in eight minutes. Not bad, really. Thank you. And, you know, it was really a pleasure, and it felt way longer. That's a bad thing. That's just my thing that I would say to Ken Finkelman. I'm just like putting you in that word. No, very good.

I wish I, you know, if I could be 1% the writer is Ken Finkelman, I'd be honored. But listen, I was always curious about this. I think he's kind of, I would love to have chatted with him. I feel like that ship has sailed. You'll have to do. I'm very happy we did this. And thanks again for carving out some time to make your Toronto mic debut. Well, thank you so much for having me.

I did a little research on you too, and I'm really enjoying your podcast. Well, Badini's been over a bunch. You can just listen to the Bedini episode. I will. I will. But I really have been enjoying it. I think you're great, and I think that, like, the fact that you let people talk on top of you is really good. That's why.

But I would love to get together for a beer when I'm in Toronto next. And I will let you know when I'm there. I would be lovely to meet up. Fantastic. And that brings us to the end of our 1,918th show. Go to Torontomike.com for all your Toronto mic needs. Join me at TMLX22. It's a 22nd Toronto mic listener experience.

It's June 25th, 2026, 6 to 9 p.m. at Great Lakes Brewery at 30 Queen Elizabeth Boulevard, your first fresh GLB is on the house, and Palma Pasta will feed everybody. Come hungry, darling. Much love to all who made this possible. That is Great Lakes Brewery. Palma Pasta, Toronto Maple Leafs Baseball,

Nick Ienis from Fusion Corp, RecycleMyElectronics.ca, and Redley Funeral Home. This episode was recorded the evening of June 15th. I dropped it June 16th because I took the day off to attend my son's convocation. Congratulations to James. My next guest is Wednesday. And he is.

Barry Flatman. Or is it Flatman? We'll find out together. He's a prolific Canadian actor. maybe best known from Saw 3. He had a pretty big role in that huge horror movie. But he has had some pretty great roles. And he had something to do with Santa Jaws.

So I'm going to play it off the top. And Barry's mind will be blown. He's in the basement. See you all then.