Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Kathleen Wynne: Toronto Mike'd #1424

Episode Date: February 5, 2024

In this 1424th episode of Toronto Mike'd, Mike chats with former Premier of Ontario Kathleen Wynne about how Mike Harris activated her life in public service, her life since leaving Queens Park, her autoimmune condition and why withdrawal is not an option. Toronto Mike'd is proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, Ridley Funeral Home, The Advantaged Investor podcast from Raymond James Canada and Electronic Products Recycling Association. If you would like to support the show, we do have partner opportunities available. Please email Toronto Mike at [e-mail]

Welcome to episode 1424 of Toronto Mic'd. Proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, a fiercely independent craft brewery who believes in supporting communities, good times and brewing amazing beer. Order online for free local home delivery in the GTA. Palma Pasta! Enjoy the taste of fresh, homemade Italian pasta and entrees from Palma Pasta in Mississauga and Oakville. RecycleMyElectronics.ca, committing to our planet's future, means properly recycling our electronics of the past. The Advantage'd Investor podcast from Raymond James,

Canada, Valuable Perspective for Canadian Investors Who Want to Remain Knowledgeable, Informed and Focused on Long-Term Success, and Ridley Funeral Home, Pillars of the Community community since 1921. Today, making her Toronto mic debut is the 25th premier of this fine province Kathleen Wynn. Welcome to Toronto mic'd Kathleen. Thank you. What a pleasure to be here, Mike. Thank you. I know we chatted really briefly before you came inside about you had like a memory of being here before. You want me to help jog your memory? before you came inside about you had like a memory of being here before. You want me to help jog your memory? Because you've actually, you never got inside, but you've been to this home before.

I knocked, right. I knocked on the door. Oh, that's right. And the studio is in a different building. Yeah. So the story is I kind of enjoy telling this story because I get to rib my buddy, Ralph Ben-Murgy. So you were going to be a guest on, I, at the time I was producing Ralph's podcast,

not that kind of rabbi. Not that kind of rabbi, right? And you were a guest. And you were still an MPP at the time. And Ralph looked at me, like all guests came down here, everybody, like I don't even have a hierarchy in my mind. Like my barber, Kathleen Wynn, like people come down and I tell, don't hit your head,

you get comfy and we have a nice chat. We're gonna have a great chat today. I have a bit of music. It's going to be wonderful. But Ralph looked at me and said, we can't ask the former premier of the province to visit your basement. And I said, Ralph, why not? Like Kathleen Wynn is a human being. Like it's not like, you know, it's not so gross. He said, no, we can't do that. So I had to make all these arrangements with, I'm a, I also produce Humble and Fred's that. So I had to make all these arrangements with, I'm a, I also produce humble and Fred's podcast. So I had to arrange to use their street level studio. And that was, you know, I could do stairs. He didn't think you would. He just was of the mindset that Kathleen Wynn isn't going to visit your basement in South Etobicoke. Wow. I did not know that part of the story. Yeah, but then of course,

originally you were coming here because everybody comes here. Everybody. Here is great. Thank you. Okay, I've got a pizza, I've got a pasta box in front of me. I've got beer to my right. I've got a little measuring tape from Ridley Funeral Home. It's a great place, well curated. But the signals got crossed because I'm now at, it was Queensway and Islington, we're humble in Fred's studio, is it I'm there with Ralph waiting for you. And you had like an assistant, a handler,

you had a person helping you, but then you weren't there, you came here. So you actually, my wife was home sick and I remember she told me, oh, Kathleen Wynn was at the door. And then I told her, oh, send her to Queensway and Islington, because that's where Ralph and I are.

So you actually came here, but we weren't here because Ralph would not let us talk to you in my basement. Oh, I totally remember this now. It was my, my assistant, Wendy was with me and somehow she had gotten this address and oh my goodness. Well, I would have been happy to come here. The other place was great too, but I would have been happy to be here.

Thank you for saying that because Ralph's visiting next week and I'm going to pull that clip until Ralph, we could have just done it here. And I will say I was never happy with the audio because I didn't, I didn't like the way the audio was captured. And I know on my mics, it was sound amazing. So the whole thing was kind of a kind of bugged me, but I told Ralph you'd be fine coming here. And I think you and I had an email exchange and you said you would be more than fine to visit the basement and here you are. So thank you fine coming here. And I think you and I had an email exchange and you said you would be more than fine to visit the

basement. And here you are. So thank you for being here. Happy to be here. And Ralph's a lovely guy. But I don't I need to tell him I don't have those kind of heirs. Never did. I never thought so. So this conversation I know if people are looking like, oh, Kathleen wins in Mike's basement, and they're going to talk policy and politics. No, like I don't I don't have the interest in I actually want to talk to you, as a human being. And I wanted to share the story and I'm going to share a little song to warm us up. Cause I know where I want to go in this

episode. So just a little bit of Rose and flows of angel hair And ice cream castles in the air And feather canyons everywhere I've looked at clouds that weaved But now they only block the sun They rain and snow on everyone So many things I would have done But clouds caught in my wings I've looked at clouds from both sides now And I've been down with

And still somehow It's cloud illusions I recall I really don't know clouds So Kathleen, are you a Joni Mitchell fan? Oh my goodness, you know, I thought you might ask me what my favorite Joni Mitchell song was, just because of my age and because of the Grammys last night. And I was going to say both sides now, so you read my mind. Well, this song is top of mind because she performed it last night, as you mentioned, at the Grammys.

And, I mean, this is a woman, an icon, she's now 80 years old, and I've always loved Joni Mitchell, like most human beings who like music. And she had her, you know, a brain aneurysm a decade ago, and she lost her ability to speak, and she had to kind of teach herself how to walk and talk again. And there she is performing this song, and it struck me, I was just crying listening to Joni sing this song and then I was thinking of our conversation and how this song seems appropriate for this chat. And this will all make more sense later when I get to that segment. But I wondered, I bet you Kathleen Wynn is a Joni Mitchell fan and I bet she loves this song. Absolutely. And Joni Mitchell's 10 years older than I am. So my growing up, you know, she was part of the soundtrack

and phenomenal that she's come back from what she's come back from and she's performing. And you know, she kind of looks like herself, but she doesn't look like herself. And just, you know, I don't know, kudos to her. Absolutely. Now your mother was a musician, right? Yeah, my mother was a singer.

She was a soprano. She worked in early television in Toronto with Spring Thought. And actually, Norman Jewison just died recently and she worked on early TV and performing with Norman Jewison and Lauren Green and yeah. When I graduated from U of T at Convocation Hall, the keynote speaker was Ivan Reitman, but Norman Jewison was on that stage and I remember shaking his hand after I got my diploma and I'm like, look, this was worth all that money and time. Like here's Norman Jewison and Ivan Reitman shaking my hand.

That's pretty cool. Yeah. And okay, now we're going to, so I'm going to play a clip from a previous Toronto mic to guest, Michael Williams from much music. And this is going to set up where I'm going with this, but this is what he famously said on Toronto mic'd. No Cleveland, no Bowie. So no Cleveland, no Bowie. He tells me. And then I was thinking no Mike Harris, no premier Kathleen Wynn.

So here's what I'd like to do. Maybe give us a sense of who you were when Mike Harris, no Premier Kathleen Wynne. So here's what I'd like to do. Maybe give us a sense of who you were when Mike Harris started ravaging our education system and activated you politically. And then how did the Mike Harris, how did Mike Harris as Premier put you into public life and service so that at some point you would be the 25th Premier of this province? Yeah. I always say Mike Harris made me. So 1994, I'm living in North Toronto. I had moved back from Holland in 1981. My then husband and I had moved there in 1979. We lived there for three years. I had two kids there, came back, had a third kid. 1990 I came out, my life

changed. Jane and I were living together and my kids dad Phil was living across the yard in North Toronto. So we're at the sort of in this sort of family compound in North Toronto in 1994. I'm working on boards or committees of the Toronto School Board. So at that time it was the Toronto Board of Education. You know, I was leading a group or part of a group called Education Against Homophobia. I was, you know, walking the pavement with teachers

who were demanding more prep time, which meant more arts teachers and more music teachers and drama teachers and so on in their schools. So 1994, I ran for school board because I knew I wanted to be part of that organization and I lost by 72 votes to the two incumbents, Linda Sparling and Ann Vanstone. And then I sort of decided, well, you know, maybe I'll run again at some point. Then 1995, Mike Harris is elected. And it really was a turning point because to my mind, Mike,

the social contract that I'd lived with all my life, I was born in 1953, so I, you know, the Bill Davis years, the building of the education system, the healthcare system, that was all part of my growing up. And when Mike Harris was elected and basically said, we're going to throw everything into chaos, you know, his education minister, John Snowblain, literally said, we're going to create chaos so we can create change. And to my mind, that was not the deal. That was not what we had agreed to 50, 60 years before in Ontario. And so as money started being pulled out of the education system and as the forced amalgamation started to happen across the province, I got involved locally and it infuriated me that, you know offered $200 a check for $200 each family.

When that $200 would have meant we could have kept more teachers in the schools, we could have kept the system moving in the way that it needed to. But instead, things started to break. And so really the platform that I started to create in North Toronto was very, very small. I gathered some people together at my kitchen table and we were thinking about what can we do with this $200? Where can we send it so that it will make a difference? And then a friend of mine said, you know, you should call John Sewell. Because John Sewell, former mayor, was organizing a group in Toronto

to fight the amalgamation and that I said, well, why would John Sewell want to talk to me? And then I called him and he did and that's it. The rest is history. You were activated. Yeah. And he, you know, to John's credit and to my eternal gratitude, you know, he, when I called he said, let's talk. And I went

down and talked to him. He came up and I was facilitating a local meeting and, and then he kind of gave me a shot at organizing downtown. And I, I mean, he helped me, I helped him. I ran those Citizens for Local Democracy meetings for a couple of years. We organized the the referendum against the amalgamation. I remember, you know, I said when I was standing at Massey Hall, I was thinking of my mom actually because I was standing on the stage at Massey Hall the night of the referendum, I said we're playing Massey Hall. Not quite in the way she had. How do you get to Massey Hall? Practice, practice, practice. Yeah, exactly. Anyway, so yeah, that's really what propelled me

onto the provincial platform, because then I ran for school board again in 2000, and I won that election. But I really was interested in how do I get to a place where I can influence the decisions around publicly funded education? So you're first elected to the Ontario legislature in 2003, so 21 years ago. Correct. MPP for Don Valley West.

And I'm just curious, when you are elected, I'm curious how it felt to see, hey, I won first past the post. Yeah. And then at that moment, do you dare dream about the fact one day you'll be leader of the Liberal Party and Premier of this province? No. that was not it was not on my mind. I was I was just I was just trying to figure out how do I how do I figure out this system you know I was 47 years old and it was it wasn't about actually I was 50 by that time I was 47 when I was first elected to the school board so it wasn't about am I

going to become the leader it was about figuring out the system, figuring out how can I, how can I make a difference here? How do I organize my constituency office so that the people in my riding feel the impact of me being their MPP? Honest to goodness, Mike, I was not thinking about being the leader. It didn't cross my mind. But it only took 10 years. Like this is kind of, I find it remarkable. So you first, you first elected as MPP in 2003, you're the leader of the Ontario liberal party in January 2013. Right. But a lot had happened in the, so three, three years,

the first three years. So 2003 to 2006, I was a backbencher. I was traveling the province with committee. You know, I was a backbencher. I was traveling the province with committee. I was doing things like learning from Shelley Martel how to ask questions in a dignified and gracious way when you're in, I don't know, Canora or you're in Thunder Bay or you're in Windsor. How do you talk to the public? How do you how do you engage with the public on these issues that are very broad? And so I was I was learning about Government and of course I had I'd it's not that I'd studied government But I'd been involved in politics locally and I'd paid attention

But until you're actually sitting at that table trying to figure out well What should the amendment to this legislation on electricity distribution be? You know, then you have to really listen to people who come and talk. And that was, that was a real learning for me because I didn't know anything about electricity or transportation or any of the issues that we were, we were dealing with. I knew about education that had been my career. Um, but I had a lot of learning to do about the system and about the issues. And those first three years were about that.

And then I was appointed to the Minister of Education job, which was fantastic. But I was really glad to have had those first three years where I saw all the legislation come across the desk because it gave me a sense of what was happening across government. Sorry, what was the name of the MPP you said was very helpful to you there? Shelley Martel. No, she's not a member of what was happening across government. Sorry, what was the name of the MPP you said was very helpful to you there?

Shelley Martel. No, she's not a member of the Liberal Party, right? She's a member of the NDP. Correct. Okay, so can we speak to this quickly here? And then I have a couple of lovely notes that came in for you when listeners learned you were gonna drop by the basement.

Ralph, are you listening? Kathleen Wynne's in the basement right now and she doesn't even consider it, slumming it. But the bipartisanship when you left, so you only recently, so you were an MPP until what? 2022? Correct. So that's not, you know, only early in 2024 here, people, if I can date stamp this. So what change did you notice from 2003 when you were first elected an MPP for

Dawn Valley West and when you left, you know, public life in 2022, regarding bipartisanship, like, it sounds like you can work, be mentored and work with somebody from a different party? That sounds crazy to me now. Well, you know what? I think on committee that still happens, Mike. I actually think that there are good conversations happening across party lines on committee to this day, but

for sure, even in the time I was in the legislature from 03 till 22, there was a rancour and a partisanship that is not, to my mind, is not healthy and was hard to deal with. But that did not preclude conversations across party lines and, you know, real friendship and sometimes real affection across party lines, really. Okay, they just can't let the constituents see this in action, that the progressive conservative MPP having a nice chat with Kathleen Wynne. Yeah, well maybe that didn't happen so much. It did though.

You know, when I left, I made my final speech in the legislature, you know Lisa McLeod came over and gave me a big hug from across the aisle. So I mean people are people and it's a tough demanding job and everybody knows that and question period, question period takes on a life of its own, unfortunately. And those are the clips that we see on the news and on social media. And I think sometimes that theater and that rancor is, it's not that it's overblown, it's just that it's the focus and the rest of the relationships get lost. I received a nice note. Now I should have followed up and found out where Up My Way

was exactly, but Cam Wasdell, hope I'm saying that right Cam, said, I would like to pass on that when Kathleen Wynne was Premier, she visited with farmers Up My Way and she was very well received. That's nice. And that's great. And thank you. Thank you, Cam. And you know, I appointed myself Minister of Agriculture when I became Premier in 2013 because I wanted to be really clear that our government was paying attention not just to downtown Toronto, but that we were really concerned with what was going on across the province.

So that's very gratifying and the farm community and small town communities were always very welcoming. Okay, now Chris Drew wrote in when he heard you were coming on. Here's the question from the Drew family of Brampton. It's very formal. Chris Drew. You know I know Chris Drew really well. Tell me because Chris is very interested when the politicians come by. How do you know Chris Drew? Chris Drew was, he was part of, I don't know, the kind of chattering class around transit forever.

Yes, that's right. Right? When Anne-Marie Eakins was just over here and I had many, many questions from Chris Drew, who I've met. He's come to a Toronto Mike listener experience. So I've met Chris Drew and I've gone on a bike thing with the bike mayor of Toronto with Chris Drew and this question is going to be about cycling. But here it is, the Drew family of Brampton for your podcast interview of Kathleen.

The Netherlands. Okay. Here it is the Drew family of Brampton for your podcast interview of Kathleen the Netherlands Okay, we remember reading a profile in the Toronto Star of Kathleen Wynn where she mentioned that when she was living in the Netherlands She enjoyed cycling our family includes parents who are seniors and to stay active They enjoy cycling as does the host of this amazing podcast. I want you to write in, write that he wrote that then I'm that host Toronto Mike. Okay. Could Kathleen tell us a bit more about what it was like to cycle in the Netherlands and what perspective this provided her when she was elected? Talk about, did you bike the Netherlands? Yeah. They all bike in the Netherlands. This is a wild, this is just, they're all on bikes from the time they're like one year old, two years old? Well, before that, so because when I went to Holland,

I was five months pregnant. I quickly bought a I bought what's called a work bike there. Everybody's got, you know, the big black bikes, heavy. Sure. Yeah. And it's very flat in the Netherlands, as you know, so you can ride everywhere. So I started riding then my son was born. He would sit on the front. So I'd have a little basket on the front. Then when I had my daughter, my son moved to the back and my daughter was on the front. So I rode with two kids on my bike everywhere. We took our, we did take our little Honda Civic over, Phil and I took

our Honda Civic over when we went, we rarely used it because we were riding our bikes or we were using the tram, which stopped. We were in a little town called Forberg just outside of the Hague and literally we went everywhere either on bike or on the tram. And so when I became Minister of Transportation, so Dalton McGinty appointed me Minister of Transportation after three and some years in education, so that was 2010. And honestly, that experience of living in a place where transit was way easier than

driving a car absolutely informed my attitudes around building transit in Ontario. Because when I got to the Ministry of Transportation, which by the way in 2016 was called the Department of Highways, that's what it was, I realized there was no long-term plan for transit. There were hundreds of engineers busy working on road plans and road repair plans, but there was nobody planning for transit in a long-term kind of way. And so that's one of the things that we got busy on with, how do we have a long-term transit plan? Because this province has never had one and needs one.

And that was definitely informed by my experience of living in a place where transit was really the best way to travel. You know, I've spent some time in Amsterdam and it's so mind-blowing, like people in three-piece suits and in their dresses are just, you know, commuting. And high heels. Yeah, high heels. And this is the way they get from such a civilized way to get from A to B. I practice this. I just wish more people, and I will just point out, so maybe this is climate change, maybe that's not so good, but Toronto is an extremely bikeable city in the winter I feel like there's this conception like you gotta you gotta lock up your bike and I don't know at Halloween or something and then you can grab it again in May or whatever but uh I other than I mean I didn't tell you it's today will be

a great day to bike anywhere you got to get to in the GTA it's gonna be clear and warm enough if you layer up. I just think it's a good cycling city during the winter. It's getting better, right? It's getting better. You know, in 1972, I worked at Smith's Bookstore at King and Young, and I lived in Richmond Hill. And I would cycle from Richmond Hill down to King and Young and back. And it was tough, because I'd go up Mount Pleasant and it'd be honking and it was not safe and great. Get off the road, yeah.

So it's, I mean, it is getting better. It will be even better when there's a coordinated system of bicycle lanes, because my sense in the Netherlands when I would ride, I felt totally safe. I always always had my own lane I had my own traffic signals you know the bike the little bike symbols we have a few of them now in Toronto but in in Holland everywhere you knew exactly when you could go when you were a bike and so we need we need that kind of consistency across the the cycling infrastructure in Toronto.

And it's coming, it's coming, it's way better. I think the day, maybe the day after you and I scheduled this visit via email, Haroun Siddiqui was coming over, long time editorialist and journalist at the Toronto Star, and you came up. So I did record a minute or so with Haroun talking about you, Kathleen. Well, I was struck also by, in this list you have, provincially too, you mentioned Kathleen Wynn, first woman Premier of Ontario and the first openly gay Premier in Canada. And this is just my way of telling everybody that I've had a nice conversation with Kathleen

Wynn. Well, you did. Earlier this week, and she is a booked her visit. She will be here in early February to sit in the Haroon seat there. Oh, you'll enjoy our company. She's lovely. Are you guys still friends?

We are friends, yes. I'm an old fashioned, you see. So what happens is while you're doing the job and you're reporting on them, you keep your distance. And then over time, after that relationship has evolved, you become friends. And that used to be the case in Manitoba as well. And that used to be the case between leaders too, you know?

They were adversaries, they were not enemies, not unlike today, you know, current conservative leader of Canada is forever taking pot shots, which is his job, but also getting personal all the time. Trudeau's inflation, Trudeau's housing prices, Trudeau's this and okay, so he's snowing, it's Trudeau's snow. You know?

Trudeau brought us his rain today. Today, Trudeau brought us this rain. I mean, he's, he's, he's, he's made many mistakes and he keeps continues to make them, but this is not one of them. So that was Haroon Siddiqui. Did you talk about his book? Yeah, big time. My name is not Harry. It's great.

Yeah, it was a great book and we covered his whole life and times. He arrives in Canada in 1967 there, just at the end of Expo 67. And quite a conversation with Haroon. People can dig that up. It's like, I don't know, about a month, maybe not even so. Maybe about three weeks ago we recorded that. But, you know, I liked how he spoke about you with such respect, you know? Like he covered you, so he had to stay objective,

but he considers you a friend. He's a fine man and I'm, you know, I'm honored that he considers me a friend because I I always liked him his questions are always intelligent and I just I love the way he sees Canada you know I love I love his view of this place as a place of opportunity and a place of not just tolerance but affection and possibility one thing that struck me, so we're gonna,

I wanna move on to sort of how you're doing these days and life after politics. And you wrote a piece that I'm gonna allude to that I really triggered this. And I told you years ago, I wanted to have you on and I would be happy to have you on. But I read this and I'm like, I really wanna talk to Kathleen Wynn about this.

And I have, gonna spend maybe the last half of this hour chat on that. But a couple of quick notes. One is DJ Dream Doctor says, I heard she really likes baking. Make sure she brings some homemade baked goods in exchange for the lasagna in beer. Do you like baking, Kathleen? I love baking. I think I baked muffins for my kids every day of their lives when they were little. And I, yeah, Jane cooks the meat, I bake. Okay. Okay. So DJ Dream Doctor is alluding to the fact that I do have a large lasagna for you in my freezer, courtesy of Palma Pasta. They got four locations in Mississauga and Oakville. It's delicious, authentic Italian food and you

could take that home for the family. Oh, that's lovely. Thank you. Had I known I would have baked for you if I'd known you were coming out to bake the cake. DJ Dream Doctor should have tipped you off. Come on, DJ Dream Doctor. Also much love to another independent, so they're an independent, you know, Italian food place. You can get in the GTA, go to palmapasta.com also Great Lakes Brewery they're here in southern Etobicoke they brew delicious fresh craft beer and I have a some fresh craft beer for you to bring home with you as well Kathleen

awesome my daughter Jessie thanks you okay good let me let me know what she thinks and we mentioned Ridley Funeral Home much love and shout out to Ridley Funeral Home they're at Lakeshore and 14th here in New Toronto and that measuring tape is for you Kathleen. You never know if you have to measure something. You never know. You never know. What you don't measure you can't evaluate or what's that expression? Yes, exactly. And measure twice. You can't improve what you don't measure or whatever.

And measure twice, cut once. And we'll throw all the measuring analogies in here. Okay. So before we do our pivot here and find out how you're doing and talk about recent events in your life, I found it always interesting what you did in 2018. So the writing was on the wall during the campaign for the provincial election in 2018. And you came out and conceded before election day. I'm just wondering, I found it curious

because you don't see that very often where you basically said, we're not gonna form a government. It was like you were just coming out to tell everybody that, you know, the Liberal Party were not going to be first past the post in this election. I'm just curious your mindset in what, why you conceded before election day in 2018. Yeah, that was tough. It was probably the toughest day politically.

I mean, not, not in terms of other things, but certainly in terms of politics. That was a very very tough day We knew that we weren't going to win and you know There was this thing happening at the door mic where my candidates would go to the door and they would The people at the door would say well, we like you but we hate your leader Not can't vote for you because we hate your leaders So, you know, I I felt that I felt that I needed to just say, well, I'm not going to be the Premier, but we need a good contingent of progressive MPPs at Queen's Park because I was very worried about what Doug Ford was going to do to the province, and I think rightly.

But I was trying to say to people, you can safely vote for this MPP because we're not going to win, sadly, from my perspective. And that's the reason it was it was sort of to to give some permission. So I'm curious about, you know, in this mindset and maybe you're I could see you going for a run and thinking about these things and making these tough decisions. Maybe I could see you going for a run and thinking about these things and making these tough decisions. But did you consider maybe even going so far as, okay, so we're not going to form government. We don't want Doug Ford to have a majority because we're worried about what he can do

with a blank check like that. Maybe even in some writings where the NDP have the best shot at defeating Doug Ford Maybe you cast your vote for the NDP party to block Doug Ford from the majority Yeah, that's so that's the that's the question That's one of the questions that there are a couple of questions that I wake up at three in the morning thinking about You know one of those about hydro one but another is about this question of strategic voting and the progressives in Ontario, because the progressives outweigh the right wing, you know, in terms of the votes and in terms

of attitudes. So what if I had done that? What if I had said, you know, if in your riding a liberal can win vote for the liberal if in your writing an NDP can win vote for the NDP or There was I didn't do that and you know that's on me But Inherent in what I was saying Mike was that you know I mean a lot of read between the line exactly a lot of people Took that from what I was saying

I mean, a lot of people, exactly. A lot of people took that from what I was saying. It really, really bothers me that we split the vote on the left. It really does bother me a lot. I understand why. I mean, we are different than the NDP. The liberals are different than the NDP for sure. But we're both more different from the conservatives,

particularly this brand of conservatism that we have in Ontario and in the country right now. So yeah, I think that is a question. And you know at election time there are lots of organizations, unions included, that look around the, they look at the political map and they decide, okay, who can beat the conservative in this riding? And then they support that candidate. Sometimes it's a liberal, sometimes it's an NDP candidate. And so that strategic map is drawn by lots of organizations.

We just haven't moved to the place where the parties actually talk about it. Were you almost like you blessed that? It's like Kathleen Wynne, leader of the Liberal Party. We blessed that intention of blocking the progressive conservatives in this election. Well, you know, I'd been part of a group before I got into provincial politics. I mean, I'd been part of a group of unions and parents groups that had had tried to do that in 1999. You know, we had tried to defeat Mike Harris by doing exactly that. And so it was not foreign to me at all.

You know, as and as I speak to you now, Kathleen, like I realize that the reason we're talking about strategic voting and ask, you know, like, why doesn't the leader of the Liberal Party say vote for another party, which is kind of crazy? It's because of this first past the post system. Like, so what are your thoughts? Like I have always, you know, been very vocal about how much I hate first past the post because I typically end up voting against the party I want least to form power as opposed to this nice feeling you get once in a blue moon where you vote for the party you want

to actually win the darn election. Why can't we have ranked ballots in this country? Well, we were the government that actually gave permission to municipalities to have ranked ballots in Ontario. That was removed by the Ford government, but I'm not philosophically opposed in any way. So why can't we? Well, we can't in this province because that right was removed at the municipal level by the provincial government under Doug Ford.

We did, you know, Dalton McGinty came into office in 2003. We had citizens' assemblies. We actually had a referendum on proportional representation in Ontario. It was voted down. Will that conversation come back? I think it will come back at some point, Mike, but it was at the same time that BC had a referendum on proportional representation as well. And what I learned from serving on the select committee,

because there are a whole bunch of different models. There's not just one model of proportional representation, but the parties, you know, any system can work well or not. And if the parties do not, for example, put, because we're talking about having more women, having more diversity, it depends who's on the list, you know, when you have a proportional representation or mixed member, whatever the system is. So no system is perfect. And we probably need to have this discussion again.

I think that's happening at the federal level a bit as well. But it's not like I'm philosophically opposed and I did actually move on it municipally. And then you used this, I wrote it, I typed it out, I said okay Kathleen just said these words, removed by the Ford government. Okay, that's a direct quote and I recorded it Kathleen. So when the PC party takes power in 2018 and your party quite frankly was decimated, can I use that word? Oh for sure, oh yeah, whatever. So you're a backbencher now, your party, I don't know decimated. Can I use the word party? Oh, for sure. Oh yeah, whatever. So you're a backbencher now.

Your party, I don't know how many, seven? How many MPPs were Liberal Party? Oh, there were seven. And I think there were nine or 10, yeah. Okay, so I just want, and again, then I'm gonna pivot very shortly because I've got my eye on the clock here. It must be frustrating when a party comes in

like the Doug Ford PC party, and they start to reverse all the things you've worked so hard on the past, you know, several years. So one by one things in and from my perspective, again, I don't I'm not a card carrying member of the Liberal Party. I keep voting strategically, but it sounds like, oh, this was a Kathleen Wynne liberal thing or adults, McKinsey liberal thing. We now need to reverse that like just simply not because it was a bad idea, but because it was the other party that did that. And now we need to put our own stamp on it and the PC party. Like, like is it, how frustrating

shading is it for you as a backbencher to watch them just dismantle what you built like brick by brick? It was horrible. I mean, it was really hard to watch personally, but you know that's not the biggest problem. The biggest problem is that it was so wasteful. So let me give you a perfect example. When the Ford government came in, they were determined that clean energy was not something they were going to invest in. They were going to cancel all the wind turbine and solar projects across the province, which

they did at a cost of hundreds of millions of dollars. So they canceled all those. They canceled the rebates on electric vehicles. Flash forward and all of a sudden when the premier has an epiphany about electric vehicles, because that's where the industry's going and because that's where the economy needs to go. Now, all of a sudden, we're investing billions of dollars in battery factories, that's fine,

I don't have a problem with that. But we still don't have the electric vehicle rebate. And now, now all of a sudden, we're gonna restart clean energy, right? And what's wasteful about that, Mike, is that there have been five or six years where that long-term energy strategy that we'd put in place could have been implemented.

We could have a cleaner energy grid. There wouldn't have had to be as many gas plants built. I mean, this government has built many, many gas plants across the province. That's meant that there's more pollution in the air. If they had stayed on our long-term energy plan and built the clean energy, including storage, we would have had a much cleaner grid. So it's, yeah, sure, it was hard to watch as a backbencher. It was a travesty,

but the real travesty is it was wasteful for the people of Ontario. Yeah. And I can't imagine how frustrating it is for you because you have, you no longer have the power, but you once had the power. So you've had the power and now you have no power and I can't imagine. You scream into the void. Right. You go for a run, right? You go for a run.

Okay, well, or a swim now. We'll get to that in a minute. There's a teaser, but are you still friendly at all with Diane Sachs, who was the last environmental commissioner of this province? Absolutely. I haven't seen her a lot. She's very busy.

She's a city councilor now, but we had a really good working relationship and she was super frustrated. I talked to her, well, once a month we have a zoom together. I produce her podcast, Green Economy Heroes, and I've been producing that long before she was actually in politics where now she's on city council here. But she always asks this question when she has on a guest of Green Economy Heroes. And I know you're now teaching, that's where you're off to now. But the question that Diane Sachs always asks, I'm going to ask you now,

is do you have hope? Do you Kathleen Wynne have hope for the future, seeing the bipartisanship monster kind of, you know, show its fangs and where we're headed here in 2024? So one of the things that gives me hope, Mike, is people working on the ground in their communities. So I've moved to Alliston. I live outside of Alliston now, and I'm involved with a group called Simcoe Greenbelt Coalition, and Margaret Proffitt is the kind of leader of that group, and they're terrific, terrific people. They were one of the voices that raised their voice

when the Greenbelt stuff happened with Doug Ford. Scandal, I'm gonna say, the nonsense. And what I see in that group is individuals from across Simcoe County coming together fighting for clean water in their community, fighting for better air, you know, all of those things that are critical and they are not in downtown Toronto, They are not politically motivated They're not partisan. They just want their community to be safe and clean for their kids and grandkids So that's what gives me hope and those are the people who I believe in the end will prevail across the province because there are there Are people like that all over the province

because there are people like that all over the province. Alison, okay, so my grandmother lived in Guildford forever and I was always going up to Guildford. I remember it was 89, they have the Cookston, Alison, and then I'd go the other side of the 400. 400, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I know that neck of the woods well. Very cool. I didn't know you were up there now. Okay, there's a term you use. Now we're going to pivot here. I will very quickly shout out Recycle My Electronics. I think Diane Sachs would like it if I shout out RecycleMyElectronics.ca because if you Kathleen or anyone listening has a drawer of old cables or old phones or old electronics, don't throw it in the garbage

because then those chemicals end up in our landfill. Go to RecycleMyElectronics.ca and find a place near you. You can drop it off and it gets properly recycled by an accredited place that the EPRA has accredited. It's a good service for everybody. Recyclemyelectronics.ca and I would like to shout out the Advantage Investor podcast from Raymond James, Canada. Whether you manage your own investment plans or you work with a trusted financial advisor, the Advantaged Investor provides the engaging wealth management information you value as you pursue your most important goals. So subscribe to the Advantaged Investor podcast.

So I mentioned off the top Kathleen that you were on an episode of Ralph Ben-Murgy's podcast that I was producing and you used a word. The word you used was crone in that podcast. And I Google crone, there's a negative connotation to this word crone, which I think we'll see you'll speak to in a moment here, but it is essentially a wise older woman. Am I right? A crone? Yeah, you can, can be a witch or wise older woman. So negative or positive, negative or positive.

So we'll lean on the positive, but I was hoping you'd maybe share a little bit about this story that kind of sparked my email to you You talked about going for a swim and having your bathing suit on inside out. I Thought this was a theory like a very brave post and it was like what I'm always hungry for authenticity and real talk and I'm like Would you mind maybe I know you don't know me but tell me about this this epiphany and then I'm gonna ask you how you're doing because you alluded in this article to a autoimmune disorder like so please share with us how you're doing and then this epiphany you had here with the swim suit so I don't know I don't know whether it all started when I turned 70 but I know it's a little bit before that.

Anyway, not that long ago, I was having a swim in a beautiful community pool, got in the pool, and part way down the first lap, I felt this tickling on my arm and I realized the tag to my black Speedo was, and I realized my Speedo's inside out and you know what I said in the piece was my 30 year old self would have jumped out of the pool run you know in great humiliation into the into the change room and turned it right side out and come back out but I found myself just you know chuckling and just continuing to swim I I thought, whatever. I mean, it is

it's just a reality. Then what happened was I got out of the pool. I guess I was having I was just having a day. I got out of the pool. I went I had decided I was going to do some reading that I had to do for a gig that I had, and I went to a coffee shop, got a tea and promptly poured the tea all over the book that I was reading. It was just, it was the most ridiculous morning.

And I talked to my sister afterwards who's nearly a decade younger than I am, and she said, well, you know, Kath, you can do and say whatever you want because nobody pays any attention to us now anyway. So nobody's looking. Nobody cares. Yeah, so I found myself laughing, you know, I could have wept and

certainly a younger version of myself would have wept that I, that I am losing, I don't know, my sharpness or something. Um, but I didn't, I laughed on, I think I said in the piece, you know, thank God that I've got a sense of humour in my DNA, because I could kind of hear my dad laughing and saying, you know, Kath, do you really think anybody cares? They've got their own issues. Everybody's dealing with their own stuff. And what I said was, you know, we all get there, right? We get to that place where we turn into our mothers or our fathers and, you know, fumbling at the cashier trying to find our keys, trying to find change, and it just creeps up on a person. But I am not gonna let it get me down, you know?

And I think Joni Mitchell on that stage last night, really, to come full circle, she's standing up there, and I can get quite emotional about it. She doesn't look anything the way she used to. You know, she was gorgeous and she was gorgeous in that, in that traditional like youthful, beautiful, flower child way, right? And then we get old and, and we become, we become less part of the central story. And when I was sitting in that coffee shop, you know, mopping up the tea on the table,

I was thinking, oh, and there were all these young kids around, because they were there from the high school or whatever, and I thought, oh my God, are they, you know, they must look at me and just think, oh, that poor old woman. And the reality is they're not looking at all, or if they are, they're not making that judgment and we just have to smile you know I really think we just have to smile at each other.

I have questions for you okay so I'm going to play a little ad for your party in you know younger years here let's listen to this. There are things most people don't know about me. One, I love running. Two, I try to speak simply and get to the point. Three, I set goals. Really hard to accomplish goals. Four, I never stop until they're done.

Four, I never stop until they're done. Authorized by the Ontario Liberal Party. OK, so there you are for run. My running ad. Your running ad, which which worked. It was successful. It was a great ad. Yeah, they were great people. Actually, this funny story about that.

We were out. It was a pretty cold day. I can't remember what month it was. It might have been in the fall. Anyway, I was what, 60 something years old and there was this truck. When you make any kind of visual, whatever, there's all this equipment and these guys on the truck. It's like hundreds of people on this truck and

they were all young Mike like they were really young people and they had blankets over them because it was cold and I'm on the road running over and another take up the hill around the corner do it again premier do it again and at one point it was getting we'd started like early in the morning and it was getting to be three or four in the afternoon. I thought, I'm going to die on this road. Just gotta keep running me till I die. And one of the guys who was making the ad had gone for a run with me to see, cause I, you know, you say you're a runner, whatever he'd gone for a run with me. We'd run up the hill at Blythe wood and Mount Pleasant. And I just, I'd gone up the hill and he was like half thing and he said, OK, I hear you're OK. We can do this.

Anyway, that was that was very fun. And I did think it captured something about who I really am. It's painful to me right now because I haven't been able to run for this is actually where I'm going here. So you sound mean you're high energy. You, I always felt politics aside and, uh, like this, not a conversation about that. This is you as a human being, I always felt was a high energy person and I can relate cause some people have considered me a high energy person, but instead of running, I bike. Okay. I tried

to run in 2008 and my legs didn't like it. My knees didn't like it. But anyway, I bike. But you're a high energy person and then you're in your sixties there. And now here you are. You're 70 years old and you disclose in this article that I keep referencing, you talk about an autoimmune condition that has you on steroids and then ruptured your Achilles tendon maybe as a result. But like how are you doing physically these days? Well, that's why I started to swim because I do have a lot of energy and it's hard to know what to do with it because I've used running as that outlet for years.

You know, I started running when I was 12 and I've run the whole time It's somebody said to me. Okay, cat because I said I said it's really hard not to run this Okay, yeah, but you had 69 years like get a grip but still I understand completely like like that's sort of no I'm gonna speak for myself Maybe I'll relate but when I I go for my bike rides eight it feels good like and I get to see the I get to See my city. I get to see the, I get to see my city. I get to see the world. I get to kind of be out there and I solve all my problems on these rides.

Like it's a great mental health break. Like, and I can start to think, I can plan things. For example, Kathleen Wynne's coming over. I go for a bike ride. I can sort of in my mind, I can kind of see how I'd like to the conversation to go. And I'll think, well, maybe a little of this off, like, you know, how do you segue into that? And then we can maybe come full circle here.

But it's great for your mental health. And of course, it's great for your physical health because it's wonderful exercise. Yeah. And it's why all through my political career, I made it clear to my staff and everyone that I was going to run in the morning, you know? And so when I became premier and I realized I was going to be shadowed at all times, those

people, my detail, who were lovely people, they would come at 5.30 in the morning and they would either run with me or bike with me or follow me in the car or whatever. But you know when I knew I was going to lose the election in 2018, Mike? When I was running and I couldn't visualize winning. Right? Right. Because in 2014 we weren't supposed to win, but I could see myself winning. You could see a path. I could see a path.

I could see myself winning. I could imagine myself there. But in 2018 I would go running in the morning in the dark and I couldn't see myself there. So I knew we were not going to get it. And so that's, and I never, I never ran with headphones or music or anything. I always just, I always just listened in the morning to the quiet. Right. Nice. Now are you, I mean, you did put this in a public article. That's why I feel comfortable asking you about it, but the, uh, the autoimmune condition, uh, like

when did you discover this that caused you to go on steroids? Mm, it was a year and a bit ago. We were about to go on a canoe trip. And I had, I'd come back, I'd come back from being at a lake for a while and I went for three days in a row. I went for a long run in the heat and honest to God, days in a row I went for a long run in the heat and honest to God one morning I just couldn't get out of bed. I had pain all over. The thing I've got is called polymyalgia rheumatica. So it's an autoimmune inflammatory thing and yeah, it's not painful. You know what? It is painful but more than, it's the medication that I've had to take to deal with it that just makes me not feel like myself.

It is what weakened my tendons, which meant that I partially ruptured my Achilles. So that's why I'm swimming and walking instead of running right now. Okay. Now, part of the side effect, I suppose, of being on a steroid for over a year, as you wrote, was that you, you gain weight, right? So, so, you know, you were very frank in this article about how you were gaining weight. And although I gotta say, I hadn't seen you in a while and I'm like, she looks fit. No, wait, Kathleen, come on. You, you look at my face, honest to my ex-husband walked by me the other day,

didn't recognize me. It's like, okay, come on. Yeah. So, you know, that's what steroids do. And there are hundreds of people, thousands of people dealing with this, you know, they're dealing with all sorts of different conditions and medication has different effects on different people.

And you know, we just have to know that. And if you haven't had to deal with that, you may not know it. I'm going to quote you now in this article. You wrote, The world is a dark place at the moment. The war between Israel and Hamas is destructive beyond all reason. Ukraine struggles to keep the deadly conflict with Russia in the forefront of our hearts and our government's agendas. Weird weather should shake us all into urgent action to reduce carbon emissions. We need all hands on deck. The young, the old, the able, the differently able, withdrawal is not an option. So here you are, you got your swimsuit on backwards, you're spilling your tea, you're gaining weight from steroids, you're limping because of the Achille tear, and you mentioned your hair is thinning and

all these different things. Now your ex-husband's not recognizing you okay but withdrawal is not an option was there ever a moment where you thought maybe I just recede into private life and live out the rest of my years you know enjoying my swims and just you know having a private life or like like the fact is you're not withdrawing from from from you know the act act you know being activated not maybe not running for public office, but you're still very active. I'm just curious, did you consider maybe withdrawing? Well, I think a few months after I, you know, I had to start taking this medication, at one point I was on a fairly high dosage and I just I just felt lousy, you know, and I

I did think, how am I going to how am I going to continue to do the things that I want to do? Because for me, what's at the core of my life right now is my family, my kids, my grandkids, you know, and they're high energy. I've got six grandkids and I, you know, I need energy for them. And then I don't want to withdraw from the outside world. But I felt so crummy that I thought, is that what's going to happen? Am I going to have to wrap my mind around that?

But that was kind of, it was good for me to think that, you know, it was good for me to look at that because once I looked at it, I thought, no, I'm not going to do that. Whatever capacity I have, I want to continue to interact with people. I want to continue to be out in the world people have questions For me we have questions for each other and conversations like this Mike I think are I think they're important, you know I think they're important for they're important for people who Who are curious about how the political system works are curious about how people get there and who they really are.

And I think it's important that we, I feel like I have an obligation to pull back the curtain on that and be open and honest. Well, Kathleen, I'm glad that you came over and visited this crazy basement. Ralph will believe it when I tell him about it. And I really enjoyed this chat, but when I envisioned this chat,

so I figured I'm gonna open with both sides now by Joni Mitchell, because it's gonna set the stage, the theme for our conversation. And I always thought of how I wanted to kind of wind things down. So I'm just gonna play another song for you. ["Sometimes in Life Obedient"]

Some things in life obeyed, they don't really make you mad Other things just make you swear and curse When you're chewing on life's gristle, don't grumble, give a whistle And this'll help things turn out for the best aim. Always look on the bright side of life. Always look on the light side of life. If life seems jolly rotten, there's something you've forgotten. And that's to laugh and smile and dance and sing.

When you're feeling in the dumps, don't be silly chumps. Just purse your lips and whistle, that's the thing. Hey, always look on the bright side of life. Come on. Always look on the bright side of life. Perfect. You mentioned you had a great sense of humor. Perfect. Monty Python helped shape this sense of humor, possibly?

Monty Python, absolutely. Hilarious and ridiculous, which is what life is. Right, you need to have the... this is the right song to close out on. What are your songs, what are your jams? Like if you are gonna listen, you mentioned if you, when you're swimming, you're probably listening to nothing, but when you do listen to music, is there a particular genre, a particular era,

a particular artist that you might gravitate towards? You know, I was worried you'd ask me that question. Just on the way out here. But you know what, I mean, I grew up in a family of music. My dad played the piano, mom sang, they would, you know, he played the piano, she'd sing. So he loved Dave Brubeck, you know, and I love Bruce Springsteen and I grew up with the Beatles and like, I was just thinking about Taylor Swift, you know, shake it off. I mean, I love music. I love it across the board.

Do I have a favourite? It would be really hard for me to choose. It's like choosing among my children. Well, I wouldn't ask you to do that. That's absolutely for sure. We need all hands on deck, Kathleen. The young, the old, the able, the differently able, withdrawal is not an option.

I'm glad that you're not choosing to withdraw and I'm glad that you're one of the hands on deck. We need you. Thanks Mike, you too. Back at you. And that brings us to the end of our 1,424th show. You can follow me on Twitter and Blue Sky. I'm at Toronto Mike. Kathleen, what is the best way, is there a social media channel that gets updated and if there's things going on in your life that you want us to know?

I'm still on Twitter. Yeah, Kathleen, I don't know, Kathleen underscore win or something, but you just, yeah. You can find Kathleen. I'm gonna tag you when I drop this. Yeah. Which will be in about 10 minutes. I'll drop this and I'll tag you on it. Follow Kathleen on Twitter. Much love to all who made this possible. That's Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, Recycle My Electronics, Raymond James Canada, and Ridley Funeral Home.

See you all next week. Life will be a struggle for Zoe. Zoe will not apply to post-secondary school because Zoe might not finish high school because Zoe can barely concentrate in grade school because every day Zoe goes to school Zoe is hungry. Help keep food banks full. $16 donated to Feed Ontario can provide breakfast for a hungry child for one month. Learn how you can help at FeedOntarioTogether.ca Don't go away, cause everything is rolling in gray.

I've been told that there's a sucker for every day. But I wonder who, yeah I wonder who. Maybe the one who doesn't realize there's a thousand shades of gray.