Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Kattie Laur: Toronto Mike'd Podcast Episode 1556

Episode Date: October 1, 2024

In this 1556th episode of Toronto Mike'd, Mike chats with podcast afficionado Kattie Laur about the state of podcasting in Canada. Toronto Mike'd is proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, Ridley Funeral Home, The Advantaged Investor podcast from Raymond James Canada, and RecycleMyElectronics.ca. If you would like to support the show, we do have partner opportunities available. Please email Toronto Mike at [e-mail]

Welcome to episode 1556 of Toronto Mite. Proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery. A fiercely independent craft brewery who believes in supporting communities, good times and brewing amazing beer. Order online for free local home delivery in the GTA. Palma Pasta. Enjoy the taste of fresh, homemade Italian pasta and entrees from Palma Pasta in Mississauga and Oakville. The Advantage Investor podcast from Raymond James Canada.

Learn how to plan, invest, and live smarter. RecycleMyElectronics.ca, committing to our planet's future means properly recycling our electronics of the past. And Ridley Funeral Home, pillars of the community since 1921. Today, making her Toronto Mike debut is Katie Lor. Welcome, Katie. Thank you so much, Mike. And you're a Katie despite the fact you have two T's in your name.

And if I remember my English classes at the University of Toronto, I would think that is Catty. Yeah, you're probably right. I mean, I look at Katie's felt with one T now and can only look at it as catty because it's cat II right right so what happened you have an origin story of how you became Katie which I would think is K a T I just I need to know this story before we can celebrate International Podcast Day um sad news for you Mike there is no exciting story my parents get out of my basement they just liked the name Katie and then wanted to throw an extra T in there

because they wanted me to be different. Now, before I make any jokes, are your parents still alive and well? Yes, they are. Okay, I just wanna make sure. I've been the past, I would go into a joke and you talk about how your mother just passed away and then it would be a very awkward moment here.

No, they're free to make fun of. I was shattered that really. Will your parents hear this episode of Toronto Mite? Honestly, I think there's a 50-50 shot, but I think- Why is it so low? Don't they like you? It might be a 70-30 shot where they will listen because I'm an only child, so they tend to support every single thing that I do.

Well, it's not your- so other than podcasts you produce, and we're going to get into that, but when you're a guest on a podcast, they might skip it. I just- I have four kids. I can't imagine if one of my kids is, oh, I was the guest on this podcast, they might skip it. I just, I have four kids. I can't imagine if one of my kids is, oh, I was the guest on this podcast. Even if nobody listened to that podcast, I would listen because it's my child on a podcast. And I want to hear like, how, how do they sound through the hosts eyes and ears and the perspective of the host? I would be fascinated. I don't know what, like wild horses couldn't keep me away from listening to you on a podcast if you were my daughter. Well thank you. I think my parents

listen to every single show that I'm on for the most part. Okay so this is to Katie Lohr's parents. Okay so my my email address is mike at torontomike.com. I'm just curious about the moment when I don't know I'm not going to be misogyn here, but typically the woman has given birth and then typically the father has to file something for like the birth certificate or something. This is a typical happening. It doesn't mean that's always how it is, right? But I'm thinking your dad had to file something

and I'm just wondering what was the conversation like with the conversation? Because Katie is often the short form of Catherine. Am I right about that? But you're not a Catherine. No, born and raised Katie with two T's. So I just want the parents of Katie to let me know, and I will share this with the listenership,

the FOTMs who are listening. What happened that Katie was spelled with two T's? I am very interested and I have no judgments. You can name, you know, whatever, within reason. Okay, so this is within reason. So it's fine, it's your name. I celebrate it. I will be typing it in my description and on my title. But if the Mr. and Mrs. Lore, is that what they're known as? Okay. And where are they in the world?

They're in Milton, Ontario. James Snow Parkway. Yeah. That's all I know. That's actually an old Milton or a newer Milton reference because I grew up there my entire life. And I think that was pre James Snow Parkway. Oh my goodness gracious. Yeah. Milton or a newer Milton reference because I grew up my entire life and I think that was pre James No Parkway. Oh my goodness gracious. Yeah. I just know you're not far from like where you'd pick apples or something. It's like it's

Chudley's farm in Milton? Yes it is. I have picked apples at Chudley's farm. It's a Milton institution. Okay see we're learning. Sometimes I think I'm an Acton and it's worth the drive to Acton and I'm never sure if it's worth the drive to Milton you know. I mean you're basically in Milton already you might as well just Because sometimes I think I'm an Acton and it's worth the drive to Acton and I'm never sure if it's worth the drive to Milton. You know? I mean, you're basically in Milton already. You might as well just go. It's right there. Where are you coming from today? Like, where do you call home these days? I call Brantford home these days because...

Because you're the great one. Yeah. It was also one of the very few places I could afford to buy a home in the GTA and be somewhat close to Toronto. So that is what landed us there in 2021. So we're going to find out a little more about you. We're going to have uh, Katie, a, I'm hoping we're going to have a heart to heart, just a good solid conversation about podcasting in Canada, like particularly independent podcasting in Canada. Cause I kind of live and breathe that, but not just like we'll see where the combo takes us. We'll, we'll get to know you better. I want to shout out somebody who's watching us live at live.torontomike.com.

Wait, this is live? Yeah. Live.torontomike.com. Al Grego. Al! Now Al says to ask you about the Brantford punk scene. Ooh. And apparently your partner is a musician. Yes, he is. So a little of that, but first I have a gift to give you courtesy of Al Gregor, who works at Monaris.

And he would like me to give you this wireless speaker. Even though my calendar says it's September 30th and the Monaris sponsorship kicks in on October 1st, because he's met you and he vouched for you and said you'd be a good guest for this conversation, I wanted to start a day early and let you know that with that wireless speaker, you can subscribe and listen, not that you aren't already listening,

but you can maybe give it to your parents and tell them to listen to Yes, We Are Open, which is an award winning podcast from Mineris. Yep. You got it. Got it. How do you know Al? Al and I know each other through the Canadian podcasting community. At this point, I've seen Al around so many times. I can't even remember where we first met. Al, maybe you can refresh me over the live there. But we've definitely emailed a

bunch I think before we met in person, and then we met in person at a bunch of different varieties of indie and Canadian podcast conferences and went from there. So as we discuss the state of podcasting in this country, which, you know, I'm passionate about this subject matter, so I'm so glad you're here. This is after I built you up as a subject matter expert,

which I'm gonna do in a moment. I'm also passionate about it. Good, and I do wanna talk about these events because I kind of have an awareness events are happening and I never have this moment of like, Oh, I should go to that. So we're going to talk about that. Yep. Al Grego. I know he's a big on connecting fellow podcasters and he started a discord server where you and I have cross paths. Yes, we have. And I know he's often going to this and that. And I feel like there was a campfire event or something that just happened.

And I kind of catch wind of it in the Discord server. So we're going to talk about that. Season seven of Yes, We Are Open, by the way, the Meneres podcast. It's like dropping ASAP. So we'll be talking about that on Toronto Mic'd over the next few months. Season seven coming soon.

Subscribe. Katie, today is International Podcast Day. It is. When did this start? Like how long ago did you, I'm not going to put you on the spot to give me an exact year, but is this something that's been around for a while now? I think it's, I think it's been around for maybe 10 years at this point, because I remember celebrating it in the early, early days of

me podcasting and I started podcasting in 2013. So I think it's been around for at least 10 years, but I can't remember to what extent it looked like. Can we move the date, at least in Canada? I would love to move the date. I think this is the last and I'm saying this as the godfather of Canadian podcasting, a self-appointed title. Someone called me that. It's pretty self-appointed title. Someone called me that.

I'm pretty self-appointed. I've been using it on LinkedIn. So it's like official now. Okay. But as far as I'm concerned, Katie, Laura, this is the last September 30th we celebrate Internet. I know that I've ever celebrated it before, but this is the last September 30th. We celebrate International Podcast Day in Canada. We're going to come up with a new date. Yes. Yes. I would love for it to be any date other than National Day for Truth and Reconciliation in Canada. Exactly.

So as I'm preparing for International Podcast Day, I realize it's kind of gross to have it today because today, of course, September 30th is National Day for Truth and Reconciliation. We used to call this Orange Shirt Day. I know my kids wore orange shirts to school today. This is the day where we honor the children who attended Indigenous residential and day schools and acknowledge the healing journey of generations of Indigenous peoples in Canada. And I think that's far too important to be even slightly overshadowed by our silly little international podcast day. So you and I, and maybe we'll bring Al Grego into the convo

and we're gonna come up with a new date for 2025 and get rid of this overlap. Yeah, would love that. Do you even know when the anniversary of the podcast is? Because it was celebrated 20 years this year, it was celebrated 20 years last year, I don't know what day it is I can tell you I don't know that but what it depends like if you say oh when did apple add

Podcast to itunes. Okay. I distinctly remember having lunch with humble and fred long-time radio superstars Who got fired from mix 99.9 in? 2005 okay, so that's when fred gets fired. And then Howard gets fired in 06. And they want, desperately want to be on the radio. But nobody will give them a job. And I remember having lunch with them and I remember saying, guys, Apple just added podcasts to iTunes.

You don't need radio to broadcast. Like they literally talked about this last week at Kelsey's. They had a live show I was at. And they were talking about- That is the most's. They had a live show I was at and they were talking about. That is the most Canadian thing. I'm sorry. I love this live show at Kelsey's. Well, Kelsey's paid them for this honor.

So it's like, okay, let's go. So yeah, I biked to Burlington. I feel like I need to humble brag that I biked there. That's why I threw that in there. So I'm in anyways, long story short is in 2006, December to be exact, I technically produced the first ever podcast for Humble and Fred. And there was already podcasts on iTunes then because I was listening

to a Ricky Gervais podcast on iTunes. And that was where I reversed engineered and said, Oh, look at this. So I'm going to guess this is just a guess. I'm going to guess oh five is when podcasts are added to iTunes and that might be some kind of an anniversary. Yeah. Well, that checks out I think because people are probably gonna celebrate 20 years next year too. Well, why not? Anything, any excuse. But we are gonna celebrate International Podcast Day on a different date next year and keep September 30th for our National Day for Truth and Reconciliation. You guys, you and I are on the same page with that. I have a cold beer in front of you I would love to hear you crack the logger the premium logger from Great Lakes on the mic

Katie well, that's good sound. Okay, I'm gonna do it too And I want to shout out somebody who also texted me so Al Grego said hey you should have Katie on Also Troy Birch. I was going to ask if it was Troy. How do you know Troy Birch? Troy and I met at a Canadian podcasting conference. Things I don't go to. I'm not going to bring it up a good chat today.

Okay. So this is all the warm up here. I will just say hello to you from Troy Birch. He says hi, Troy, and he would like me to give you some fresh and delicious craft beer from Great Lakes brewery That's brewed right here in South Etobica to take it home to Brantford home of the great ones I'm adding an s now that I know you're there. Okay, so yeah, you got the cold one in your hand. So cheers to you. Cheers Can I do a little slurpee to go slurp? That's a hell of a slurp Katie you're good at this

Okay, but the additional pack of fresh slurp, Katie. You're good at this. Okay. But the additional pack of fresh craft beer that goes home with you to brand. Oh, there's lots of good stuff in here too. I love Great Lakes. So this is very exciting. It is very exciting. So I want to talk about podcasting in Canada, particularly independent podcasting, but we're going to see where a combo takes us. But first I want to know a little bit more about you. Like when did you get into podcasting? Give me a little bit of your podcast journey and how the hell you ended up this podcast aficionado in my basement right now Okay, well, it's a kind of a bit of a weird story because I grew up listening to public radio and CBC and vinyl cafe With my parents those are the early early days

And ever since then I wanted to be on the radio and I was like I'm gonna go to Ryerson now TMU Toronto Metropolitan University and go into their radio broadcasting program I'm gonna be like a much music VJ maybe I'm gonna be the next George Trombo Lopolis I'm gonna be all these people went to actually did get into the RTA School of Media which was wild because that program is such a small class and then realized no part of me wanted to be on camera at all. I still loved radio so I ended up wrapping up that whole schooling in 2014 with the internship at CBC and was like sweet I'm

gonna be hired at CBC right now. What are you doing at CBC? was like sweet I'm gonna be hired at CBC right now. What are you doing at CBC? I was like I was help I was an intern with a show called The Signal on radio too so I was helping to pick music and select it was like a late night kind of trippy chill kind of show hosted by Laurie Brown. Excuse me that's FOTM Laurie Brown to you. Love Laurie Brown. And then the director at the time was Andy Sheppard, who went on to work at Pacific Content, which is a really big Canadian branded podcasting studio, and now recently founded his own new studio called Sequel, which is really exciting, really amazing. Yeah, so I did my internship at CBC, thought I was gonna get hired, didn't get hired, and that was about 2014, so right before

the Canadian podcasting boom really started. So it was- Wait, there was a boom? Yeah, CBC podcast launched CBC podcasts in 2015, and then Rogers launched Frequency Podcast Network in 2016. So in early 2015, I met up with CBC and was like, you guys should really start posting your podcasts as, or your radio shows as podcasts.

And they were like, listen, podcasting isn't gonna be a thing. We're not gonna waste our time doing that. And then the next year they launched. Who said that? Can you name that person? No, I'm not gonna name that person. I can't possibly name that person.

I respect them too much That's sort of like somebody is saying yeah, this internet thing is a fad We're gonna wait for a double over back in like 95 or something like that Yeah So at that point it was too late for me to even start like getting a full-time job and it was too early for a full-time Job in podcasting too awkward of a time for me to get a full-time job at CBC and all this stuff So I actually worked for six years For, oh are you familiar with House of Lords in Toronto? The hairdressing place? Yes. I used to go there. So I used to live at Charles Street in Young. Okay. And I used to walk, I guess it's Wellesley in Young?

Isabella. Isabella, yeah okay. So I used to walk down and the reason I used to go there is because they used to advertise on CFNY. Yeah. And I thought, in fact, coming here next week, visiting this week, next week is David Marsden. Okay. David Marsden was the longtime program director at CFNY during the spirit of radio. And like best friend of Paul Burford, owner of House of Lords. Okay. So that name Paul Burford, that's a different Paul Burford. I just need to tell the listenership because there's a Paul Burford who co-founded the Just Like Mom. Okay. Do you know the show Just Like Mom? No. So Fergie Oliver, F-O-T-M Fergie Oliver was the host of this show and

people have a say, you're very young. I can tell by the, I won't ask your age but I'm doing math based on when you're getting starting in the workforce. I look younger than I am though. Okay but you're too young for Just Like Mom and Paul Burford is the co-founder. So I'm I'm only assuming This is a different Paul Burford different Paul Burford for sure This is your Paul Burford had nothing to do with Fergie Oliver and just like mom No, my Paul Burford is the icon that started House of Lords in Toronto in like the early 80s Beautiful now you work there as a hair dresser

I worked there for a year and a half as a front of house receptionist. The turnover rate... It's kind of amazing. Like if I had known this, I have in my collection somewhere the vintage ads that would air on CFNY. Maybe I'll dig one up while you're talking about something else later, but House of Lords. Absolutely. When was the last time you went there for a haircut? Well, they've been closed a long time, right? Yeah, because I was working there in probably 2015, absolutely. When was the last time you went there for a haircut? They've been closed a long time, right? Yeah, because I was working there in probably 2015, 2016.

No, my era was long gone by then. I think I had literally like for a decade, only my wife cut my hair. This is where I was. And now I have my own personal hairdresser named Andy. I love that. Andy from your neighborhood barber shop, who's also an FOTM.

And again, we're gonna go all over the place, but Andy, lead singer of Phantom Lung. Oh, which you would, I think. Don't know who that is. Yeah. Well, there's no melody in Phantom Young. I don't think even your punk ears would disregard that sound. But anyway, shout out to Andy. So you worked at the House of Lords.

Yeah, because I needed to make money somehow. So I worked at House of Lords for like two years, which was impressive because the turnover rate for receptionist there was three weeks. I trained so many other receptionists in that time. Yeah, I worked there for a number of years. Then I did a stint at Sportsnet doing social media. OK. Yeah. Were you tweeting from the official like what we're doing?

I was tweeting from the official sports net account. I was following around their show Hometown Hockey. So you know what? No joke. I was in the presence of the great Tara Sloan. Oh my God. On Saturday night. And I got an email from her 25 minutes ago. No way. No joke. Tara Sloan and also Ron McClain was it. This is at Massey Hall Saturday night. Ron McClain was there too. Ron McLean, Tara Sloan, both Canadian icons. Wow. Okay. Keep going, Katie. I'm very interested in all this. So then after that, I decided I started working at a startup company that was like, it's called Set Scouter. So it's basically like Airbnb for location scouting. So you can like rent out people's homes for commercials, whatever it might be.

That's cool. So those entire years, that was like six or seven-ish years, that entire time I was trying to make podcasts like on the side, just trying to keep my skills relevant. Like for yourself? Yeah, I tried to start a podcast network called the Wave Forum Podcast Network, where I produced a show for myself, for my partner,

for a whole bunch of friends, and didn't even know like what an RSS feed was at the time, so I was just uploading it onto like a Wix website and assuming people were just going to listen to it on the website. I literally bought a coding for Dummies book, trying to figure out what the hell an RSS was. I was like, I'm going to just program my own. And I had no idea what it was.

And then, yeah, started that. And then what else did I do? I think I took a break from podcasting for a little while and then was like, I really need to get back into this And that is when I officially met my pal Aaron Hines Who is the host of our show curious tourism and that was when I finally was like I'm gonna take an indie project Take it really seriously and that kind of helped me get my skills together again Make sure I knew what I was doing in the podcasting space once we had that that going for about a year, I was like, I think I'm going to

freelance because this entire seven years I was like, I, nobody's hiring me. I'm applying, I'm applying, I'm applying. Nobody's doing anything. We are applying for like podcast networks, all sorts of things. Like curious cast and that kind of stuff. I applied to curious cast. I applied to CBC podcasts because at that point, eventually there was jobs. I applied to work in any kind of audio where I could keep my skills relevant. So I was applying literally to like recording

studios to do just like reception jobs, anybody that would keep me in the audio space. And it was just so, so difficult. So eventually I just decided I'm going to freelance and I'm going to try and take on as many freelance clients as I can while I'm working full time at the startup company until I don't have enough time to work at the startup company anymore. I got two or three clients and then decided to quit my job and was like I think I'm just gonna work at the LCBO on the side because they have benefits as far as I heard. So like freelance a little bit, I work at the LCBO and then the pandemic hit and everybody started podcasts.

So basically early 2020, I was like fully in the swing of all things freelance podcasting and was doing that for five years. So you're the great beneficiary of this international COVID-19 pandemic. Probably the only beneficiary, unfortunately. So you ever get down on your hands and knees and thank God for this virus? Every single day. I definitely get down on my hands and knees

and thank the universe a lot because it felt like a lot of things sort of like landed into my lap. It was definitely very eerie and weird. And my whole career since then has been interesting. Okay, so now the pandemic hits people. Suddenly everybody wants a podcast. Yeah. Uh, we're, we're going to get into this, but of this boom in the,

during the pandemic when everybody wanted a podcast, approximately what percentage of those podcasts are now dormant? Like, was there a huge drop off at some point when people realized two things? One, it's a lot of work and two, it's not particularly lucrative. In total of all the podcasts that started in 2020, I have no idea. No one knows. I'm going to make you guess. Like this will be the Katie. I think it's pretty significant.

Like I think maybe like 60 percent of the podcasts that were started in 2020 don't exist anymore or just have like dead feeds. What I've heard so far is that of the four million podcasts that exist out there, only 13% of them are live. Okay, that's a lot though, cause four million. But yeah, that's not even surprising. I think a lot of people started podcasts and then they move on and do other things.

It started like a blog back in the early 2000s. Like everybody started a blog and how many people kept blogging? Just me and Remy the Minx. I think it's just the two of us plus I think now more and more people are realizing like they have a lot of different kinds of interests so they can start producing like a Six episode miniseries and then make something else So there are a whole bunch of feeds that are literally just miniseries that you can watch like a Netflix TV show

Are they doing that like is it a numbers game where they they do that to see if something hits like to see if something Gains some traction and then they can build on that brand or is it just a scratch a creative itch? I think it might be both. I think it depends on the person because there are some people who are using old feeds of theirs that have all the downloads and the subscribers already to launch a new show. But then it's like a sticky situation because you don't know if those people are going to be interested in your new show.

Okay, here's a fun fact for you and then I'm going to give you a couple of know if those people are going to be interested in your new show. Okay. Here's a fun fact for you. And then I'm going to give you a couple of gifts and then we're going to get into it. One on one. Yeah. More gifts. I don't know what they were giving away at the CBC. Okay.

But here we give no jobs. I'll tell you that's what well think about what happens in PR poly of is your prime minister. There's gonna be fewer jobs, Katie. It's gonna get ugly. No CBC. The next podcast boom is gonna be when like 60% of our mainstream media personalities are looking to do something like Humble and Fred were in 2006. Oh, and I have thoughts on this too.

Okay, well, I don't want you to leave any thought. I don't want you going back to Branford with these thoughts in your head, okay? So enjoy your Great Lakes. How is that logger? Delectable, love it. Delectable, I gotta Google that word. That's good, right? Okay, so I'm enjoying my burst.

I like I'm having a little IPA burst. Thank you. Great Lakes. Thank you to Palma Pasta. They sent over a large meat lasagna. It's in my freezer right now. I'm so excited about this. I had a feeling the Pointer Sisters. Keep going. I like this game.

You're going to drop name titles. OK, I'm so excited. OK. Do you like lasagna? I love lasagna. I don't have. Okay. I'm so excited. Okay. Uh, do you like lasagna? I love lasagna. I don't have it enough and I'm stoked. Okay. Your partner, we call this person a partner. Are you married?

Is this a, is it, is it, I don't care about this person's gender. I find this, is there a guy you live with or something? Yes. So he is my fiance. He is my fiance as of a month ago. I was going to say as of this morning, I was going to congratulate you and give you more beer. We've been together for 10 years, but we just got engaged in August. So is it Wayne Gretzky?

It is. No, I'm kidding. I don't even know where that man is at this point. That man's married to Janet Jones from Police Academy 6. Wow. Did you not know? And my wife is from Edmonton. We'll tell you the marriage.

Okay. The wedding I should call it. The wedding of Wayne Gretzky and Janet Jones shut down the city from Edmonton, we'll tell you, the marriage, okay, the wedding I should call it, the wedding of Wayne Gretzky and Janet Jones shut down the city of Edmonton. It was like a royal wedding. It was everything stopped because Wayne and Janet were getting married in Edmonton. I don't think we've seen anything like that in Toronto or Brantford.

Definitely not in Brantford, but also I didn't know there was a Police Academy 6. I thought there was only two. Katie, get comfortable. I'm gonna tell you police academy one was literally filmed a stone's throw from where we're talking right now. I'm not even fucking with you. They film police academy,

it's now Humber College South Campus. No way. That's where they filmed a lot of, that's where the commandant Lassard and the police academy existed. Wow, no idea. What a fun time. If you don't listen to Toronto Miked? I literally had Jeremy Hopkins in here

to talk about that last month. Why don't you listen to this podcast? Because I have too many podcasts to listen to, so I only pick and choose the episodes of yours. Here's the fun part, pick and choose. Okay, that means you're just listening to El Grego episodes, okay? No, it's just El Grego.

Okay, here is, so I gave you the lasagna. Thank you to Palm Apostate. They're gonna feed us. I want everybody to know, there's a Toronto Toronto mic listener experience. It's the number 17. It's happening November 30th. Katie should come to this November 30th from noon to three. That's a Saturday, I believe. And it's at Palma's kitchen in Mississauga. So it's like West End, not too hard for you to get to the West End there. And your first beers is on the house. I'm gonna bring fresh cans of Great Lakes beer and everybody's gonna get a meal from Palma Pasta because they're hosting us. This is happening, I'm gonna record live from the second floor.

We've done this a few times in a row, a few Christmases in a row. And Katie, you're gonna come on out to this. Yes, I would 100% love to be there. Well, I would invite you to the TMLX 16, which is October 21st at GLB Brewpub, but it's sold out. There's no more spots. No, that's a Sunday. That's a Monday. But you're not you're not invited. So you I had to get my hopes up there. So that one sold out the 40 people took up those tickets really quickly. You're not allowed to come. Well, you can come I guess as a regular customer. Can I just crash? You can crash but maybe you have to buy your own drink. I think that might be the deal. So come on out buy your own drink. Okay, that's October 21st But the one where there's still room is November 30th at Paul miss kitchen. There's a measuring tape from Ridley funeral home This is the merch I was the most excited for what are you gonna measure with that?

I need to measure my body because I need to figure out what the heck kind of wedding dress. I'm gonna get Okay, that's a bit, you know, I'll introduce you to Monica afterwards because she's kind of a seamstress like she makes dress Okay. Yeah, I don't know what the style is gonna be yet But I am tempted by a lot of things online and I don't know my actual body measurements. So this okay. Well, uh She's hanging around upstairs. I can hear footsteps. So we'll talk to her after we take our photo here. So thank you Ridley Funeral Home. Brad Jones at Ridley Funeral Home has a podcast called Life's Undertaking and everybody should subscribe. It's great. Life's Undertaking with Brad Jones from Ridley Funeral Home. A lot of podcast talk on this episode. Go to recyclemyelectronics.ca if you have any old electronics, old cables,

old devices that you don't need anymore, because I don't want you throwing that in the garbage, Katie. I want you going to recycle my electronics.ca put in your Brantford address and it's going to be like, Hey, drop it off here and we'll properly recycle it. So those chemicals don't end up in our landfill. Got it? Excellent. I want to shout out John Leshinsky and Jennifer Lanktree.

Do you know these names? Yes I do. Who are they? They are the main folk, I think they have a lot of titles, but they are the folks behind Canadian Podcast Awards and PodCamp Toronto. That is correct. So I was testing you. So they came over in February, that was episode 1425. I listened to that episode. Okay, what did you think of John and Jennifer's Toronto mic debut? It was great. I mean, I've met them a ton of times at a variety of Canadian podcast conferences. I think you should drink every time I say that. Yeah, they'll be hammered. Yeah. You know, I didn't drop that fun fact. So that, so I wanted to shout out John and

Jennifer cause this episode is kind of related to that in the same community. But I did promise you a fun fact. Lori Brown, who you worked with, right? Did you know she's in the iconic Corey Hart video for sunglasses at night? No, I didn't know that. She stars in the damn thing. She's like the pretty girl running,

and you've got to go to YouTube and watch the video, because you're too young to remember it when it was Aaron Howe's music. Go to YouTube, watch the video for sunglasses and night by Corey Hart and you'll see Lori Brown is all over this thing. That's awesome. Was Succy and Lee in that one too? She was probably in diapers. Okay. No, she was not in that one. She was very young in the early eighties. She's not in that one, but Lori Brown all over it. And now you know.

That's exciting. I will be watching that. I've watched that music video a number of times and can't believe I didn't actually clock that it was Lori. Lori Brown from CBC and elsewhere. Now I want you to, I want to start with a definition of what is a podcast. I know this is going to sound strange,

but I hear people talking about the YouTube show and they're calling it podcast. So just in your, Katie Lohr, what is a podcast by your definition? This is such a hard question now because it is changing so much, but I think a podcast is something that is definitely, it's a piece of content that is made better

by just existing as an audio experience. That being said, it can be a video experience as well. But typically when you see it in a video experience, it's going to be a conversation where rather when it's in audio, it can be kind of anything you want it to be. One of my favorite things that I ever heard when I was at the RTA School of Media in Toronto, they said that TV can only stretch the imagination 55 inches at the time. But audio, it's unlimited, unlimited. So that's what I love about podcasts. You can do so much with it.

But am I hearing you right that you're essentially saying like a piece of audio content is a podcast by your definition? I'm just I mean, again, I don't have my Webster's dictionary out there, but I would think to be a podcast, you must be available through the, you mentioned earlier, RSS feed, but through a syndication methodology, the RSS schema, which is really an XML file, which is what Apple and Spotify and all these podcast aggregators use to syndicate your content for subscribers. Isn't that a mandatory prerequisite to call yourself a podcast?

I don't think an RSS feed is a mandatory prerequisite. I think it should just definitely be audio that exists on the Internet. It is basically radio on demand. Okay, we agree to disagree. But that's why I wanted to start with that because we can't even agree what a podcast is. What are we doing here? Well, I would say the RSS feed is not necessarily because I think it limits the accessibility

of podcasts for a lot of folks. Like sometimes even just paying like a monthly fee for an RSS feed is just like a little bit to ask for people. Whereas some people can just create a podcast episode and upload it on like SoundCloud. And that to me is still a podcast. Okay, fair enough. You're entitled to your opinion, of course. Thank you.

So what do you personally, since we're in the Katie-Lore personally category here, what do you look for in a podcast? What will get on? You mentioned you have the cherry pick, the Toronto Mic'd episodes, because you've got so much content to listen to. So what do you personally look for in a podcast? I think it depends on my mood and the vibe that I'm feeling of the day, but I think the podcasts that sit with me the best

are ones that make me a little bit emotional in some capacity, or I feel like after I've listened to the episode, like I definitely need to like yap about it and talk to people about what I just heard or recommend it to somebody. And it's hard to pinpoint what it is about that because sometimes it's just something that somebody says that I can relate to.

Sometimes it's like a really compelling story that was told in a really great way. So it really just depends. It's so hard to say because podcasts are so varied. What's your favorite podcast? My favorite podcast. My favorite podcast of all time was a show called The Cut on Tuesdays, which was a show that was by The Cut, which is a part of New York Magazine. It used to be called The Cut on Tuesdays, which was a show that was by The Cut, which is a part of New York magazine. It used to be called The Cut on Tuesdays. Now it's just called The Cut. But when it switched to

The Cut, it wasn't as good. They changed the host. They changed the format of the show. But that show really opened up my eyes to what freelancing could be for me, because it opened up like, this is what a branded podcast could exist. It could be just a room full of people that work at this company and be a compelling story around the relationship that they all have together. So that show did a really good job at kind of making the cut something that I was excited about. Okay. Did it matter to you at all? And I'm going somewhere with this, but did you care at all, Katie, if that podcast was New York City based of a bunch of yanks or if it was you know a Canadian Canadian based of a bunch of Canadians behind the scenes do

you care? At the time I didn't care but then when I thought about how it was produced I was wondering why we didn't have sort of a Canadian version like this and I was wondering why Canada wasn't have sort of a Canadian version like this and I was wondering why Canada wasn't putting out Content like that as easily that's kind of what started the curiosity. Well, let's get into this then Okay, because I personally I gotta say now you're from Milton. You're living in Brantford Yeah, last I checked these were Ontario based cities I see on Google Maps here that you could probably drive each of them from here wouldn't take you too long. You could probably bike to them if you wanted. Could

I bike to Brentford? I bet you I could. You could, but it would be like a decent bike for sure. You know what? One day, one day next summer. There is. I'm going to bike to you. Bike to Hamilton and then get on the railroad trail. It goes right to Brantford. I have biked to Hamilton before, so I feel like. It's doable.

Okay. It's all doable here. But is Canada, this is a before so I feel like it's doable. Okay, it's all doable here, but Is Canada this is a pointed question for you and it's gonna lead to a conversation is Canada becoming a global podcasting force yes Elaborate like like why do you say yes? Well, I think the biggest symbol of that was Connie Walker winning a Pulitzer prize last year for her show Stolen. The disappointing news was it only won a Pulitzer when she brought it to the States to tell her story.

But isn't that significant? Like, I mean, we talk about it. Does Canada have a thriving comedy scene? It's like, yeah, Dumb and Dumber was good. It's like, oh, that American movie made by Americans just so happens Jim Carrey is from Canada. Like there's a significant difference between the fact, oh, I carry a Canadian passport versus the fact that it's a Canadian.

It's not a good, you know. So so if if if a Canadian goes down to the United States and has to work there and then put out a podcast, Americans don't even know that's a freaking Canadian. It's almost irrelevant. They're Canadian. It's just one of our fun facts will drop up here. This is one of the sad things about the Canadian podcasting industry is that a lot of the talented freelance producers end up working in the States or working on American shows or finding just like a

sense of credibility having worked there. A lot of freelancers that I worked with have been worked have worked on like 99% invisible before. They've done like tape sinks for NPR and a whole bunch of other things and it's really sad that that has to be a part of their resume for Anyone to take them seriously and then for to get good work Because there is a lot of really great content in Canada that is should and be should be developed well and by professionals So now with this like new parameters of what is you know, what is Canada? I feel like let's start at the beginning And what a day to have that to have that discussion national day for truth and reconciliation. So Again now considering that they'll call it the brain drain or whatever

You want to call the talent drain or whatever where people like Mike Myers live in California now, right? Yeah, you're from Scarborough, but it's been a while, my friend. Although his brother, Peter, listens to Toronto Mike, loves Palma Pasta and still lives in Toronto, Peter Myers. Okay, Peter. Just the one out there. I don't know if he's in Scarborough or not, I have to double check with him, but he's in Toronto.

That's the one I know is true. Is Canada becoming a global podcasting force? If they gotta go to the States and make one out of the States to have a hit, is Canada becoming a global podcasting force? I they got to go to the States and make one out of the States to have a hit, is Canada becoming a global podcasting force? I would still say yes, because there are a bunch of other really amazing indie podcast producers and podcasters out there that are making a global name for themselves. I would say one massive shout out would go to the show. Let's talk about Myths Baby hosted by

Liv Albert. That show is huge. She has like millions of followers. Or subscribers. She's in Canada. Yes, she's based on the West Coast. Out in this basement. And then out on the East Coast, we have Sleep Tight Stories, which is a kids bedtime podcast

that has like millions and millions of listens and is like one of the global leaders in kids bedtime story podcasts. Do you find a Canadian podcaster needs to appeal to an American audience in order to be successful? No, I think Canadian podcasters can do whatever they want because at the end of the day and this is I think you were talking about to John and Jen about this when they were here, you were talking about the niches a little bit. And I think niches is where anybody can be successful as well, where you're like the go-to podcast for a certain community, kind of like you, Mike.

Like a Letter Kenny listener. Sorry, Letter Kenny is a show, right? I feel like you're in there. Like a Letter Kenny viewer. I told, I was joking with Al in that Discord server, what t-shirt will I wear today? And I was going to wear the, my tragically hip, tired as fuck T-shirt. But instead, I wore my produce stand T-shirt. Do you say produce or produce?

I think I say produce. Do you say pasta or pasta? I think I toggle between the two, to be honest. I like your honesty. OK. So more more to elaborate on all this this so you can be a Canadian podcaster Yeah, and be authentic and appeal to Canadians without having this mindset where oh shit I got to make sure that Americans can relate and make sure these are names American know Americans know I can't just talk to Ron McLean all the time because

Americans don't know who the hell that is. You don't have to do that to be successful as a podcast. Yeah I think it also depends on what your measurement of success is as well right? Like if you want to be the go-to guy that knows everything that's going on in Toronto and is like the number one show for people who are interested in Toronto things then and you have sponsors, like you don't need to appeal to a global audience. I'm talking about you, Mike, because you have sponsors, you have money coming in, you have free beer coming in, you have people coming into your studio. Like I would call you a success and I don't know if you're necessarily-

But you don't listen. I do listen to your show. I'm just busting your chums. I'm just not listening to every single heckin' show. There's so many episodes. Please continue. But anyway, I would call you a success in your niche. You are kind of dominating the Toronto space. And I think you probably might have some American listeners

tuning in who are just curious, because a lot of Americans think Canadians are cute. So they might be listening in just to see what's going on, but I don't think that's necessarily part of what you consider success. I don't mean to speak on your behalf too much. No, but I'm actually the reason you're here is because I'm interested in a different perspective. I yell at clouds all day long. I go on these bike rides and I have these like monologues and I start to think about things and I start to spouse and I realize like, oh, I need to

actually have somebody I can bounce this off of. But somebody I don't want somebody to blow a part of the expression. I don't want to blow smoke blowing up my ass. I want like real talk about the state of the Canadian podcast industry. Yeah. Because the sense I get again, I do listen to a bunch of podcasts myself. I'm often listening to a podcast on a bike ride or a walk or all the time I produce a bunch of shows. I'm kind of all in this space all the time. It feels like the bulk of podcasts being consumed by Canadians are made outside of Canada. And the exceptions might be Canadian podcasts that are clearly produced to entice an American pair of ears to tune in and

Not necessarily. So somebody in moose jaw will be on board This is false by 1% so it came out last year on the Canadian podcast listener report one of my favorite nerdy Resources that's available to anybody in Canadian podcasting last year they reported that that's available to anybody in Canadian podcasting. Last year they reported that more than half of podcasts listened to by Canadians are Canadian content. And they're all from the CBC? Honestly, probably.

A lot of them I think are. Well this is gonna lead later, we're gonna get into the whole independent versus network thing. Yeah. Which I have a lot of thoughts on. But I think this is huge and CBC is doing a lot to work with some more freelancers and contractors and they're actually working with a lot of global players too. So at this point, a lot of CBC's work is starting to become global work as well. So it's kind

of an interesting space. Yeah, because they're chasing the green. Yeah. Right. Like this is how can they not? Well, soon we're going to get to Canada land and double double. And I mean, this is all happening. Alan's Wides an FOTM We communicate all the time. I bumped into him on Dundas fairly recently. He's a dear dear FOTM He brought his brother over here. I heard that episode as well Michael's why? Michael's Ed see it should be Michael Z the Zeds come on It's my they went with Michael Z. I think to get to get the Americans interested in them. It's all about the Americans I'm sick of the fucking Americans.

Yeah, his show is a very interesting example of thinking about global audiences. 100% and I can hear it. So that's that's an example. And share with the people your role on that show and the name of that show of Allen's like, yeah, so that show is a new show that came out from Canada land that is called the worst podcast. I am the producer slash sidekick on it. So your voice is all over I've listened to your voice is all over this podcast.

But it's interesting to me that we were in the ghost to get you on the show took months and we were before I knew you had anything to do with FOTM Alan's why we were in negotiations to schedule your visit. So some people might think oh I heard your that you're at your own now that you're on Zweig's podcast on Canada land or whatever. I got to get some Katie lore over here. But no, this was way before that. Yeah, it was way before that.

Um, my schedule this entire summer was chaotic as heck. So, so that podcast is making a concerted effort to appeal to Americans. Yeah, it's a little bit both, but the interesting thing is that the executive producer on that is Julie Shapiro, who is a yank, well, not a yank, but she is from America. You can say yank. It's fun. But she's a genius in the podcasting space. She's one of the founders of, actually,

I don't know if this is true, but she's behind Tribeca Audio Festival. With De Niro? Audio Flux Contest, all these things. So she is kind of like the head behind all these new podcasts that Canada Land has been putting out that are mainly geared towards a global audience. And that's because of money, right?

I think it is because of money. 100% is because, I'm gonna tell you now, it's because of money. It's definitely because of money. I don't wanna speak on Canada Land's behalf too much, but but you you work so you're again We're gonna cover this because I'm curious about your work with Canada land obviously, you know Jesse Brown says something on every one of his shows something to this effect Okay, I read every email and reply when I can okay, and and I just want to point out

I'm just saying this. I have written him and I got a very thoughtful personal note. You know, AI didn't write this and then I write this from AI and he doesn't reply when he can because it's been several years and I'm still checking my inbox for reply. Yeah, no, he might read every email, but he does not reply to every email. No, Ken confirm when I worked for him, he still didn't answer my emails. So he's lying on podcast. Yeah, I hate it when people do that. When I first was freelancing with Canada land, I'm pretty sure for the first

like couple of months, Jesse still didn't know who I was. That might still be true, but yeah, I think it is still true. OK, enough with that. We'll get back to this later here. Here's a little test I did when I knew you were coming over. This was Wednesday, so I time. So on Wednesday, I went to the, so as you know, when you have a podcast on Apple Podcast, you have to go into categories, okay?

The category, the subcategory that we're in this show, Toronto Mic'd, is called Personal Journals. Okay. Okay. And on Wednesday, I decided to pull up the Apple chart for Personal Journals in Canada. So this up the Apple chart for personal journals in Canada. So this is the Canadian chart for Apple podcasts, but just for the category personal journals. You with me?

So for fun, and I had to go record. Who was I recording? Oh, the Kings. They had a big hit in 1980 with a Switching to Glide, the beat goes on, but they're an Oakville band. Okay. Not too far from you really like between us maybe. Okay.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I actually had FOTM in the WhatsApp group. I said, Hey, does anyone have time to go through the top 100 of Apple podcasts for Canada? The personal journals category. I only picked that category because I'm in it. So that's why I picked that category.

And I said, just, just find out how many are Canadian podcasts. So I left, I come back, and the final results were they were, they determined there were three Canadian podcasts. Out of 250? Out of 100. I just did the top 100. So three Canadian podcasts, which I found was shockingly few, that 3% of the top 100 were Canadian podcasts. I'm sure other categories are different. I

only looked at this one, so very small sample size and it was a very quick little test. I'm on there, so I'm, I don't know, number 30 or something. Congratulations. Thank you. So I'm the top Canadian podcast in that category. Congratulations. It's not quite sports, but it's my category. The second one, I actually disagree with it. It was Senior Bitches, which is a Mary Jo Eustis podcast that I actually produce, but she actually lives in LA. So I feel like I'm not even sure that's eligible

because she's a Canadian who lives in Los Angeles. So I don't know, that one I might not, but there was another one called The Calgary Sessions with Jeff Humphreys. Oh yeah. Okay, so that was it. And then I just did that as a quick little sample here that I think Canadian podcasting is in trouble.

Like I know you twice because I asked the question twice. You think that we're becoming a global podcasting force. I think we've been completely overshadowed by the big beasts to the south. Yeah, like you're right. It's still the case. How are we becoming a global podcasting for it's like specifically around like, you know, this is a difficult. I don't know if it's like a quality or it's a it's not a quantity thing. It's a quality thing, I think. Well, elaborate. So I think like there are a lot of podcast brands or titles that have become really global, but not

necessarily like a lot of them. I think there's just specific ones that are doing a really great job in getting global presence. But you're probably afraid because I know that True Crime, for example, which is a very hot category. Yeah. There are some Canadian True Crime podcasts. I heard you say this. There's some Canadian True Crime podcasts that are well listened to outside of the Great

White North. Yes, actually. The one that I mentioned is not a true crime podcast. It is actually a history podcast. So it's all about Greek mythology. And that one is so hot right now. It's math, mythology. It's been around and it's been around, I think, for like about five years. But you see how we like to even talk about it.

We have to cherry pick these titles that are kind of popular. That's the problem is I think there are specific again, specific titles that have made global awareness, but there isn't a lot of them. And it's few and far between. And again, you could pick different categories and get different results. I'm sure sports, for example, I'm sure there's a number of popular hockey podcasts in Canada is hockey crazed. And I'm not just thinking, but then you're going to look

at them and you're going to say, oh, well, that one's from like, you know, there's 32 thoughts. Is it 32 still or is it? No. Yeah. Cause if you next moved to Utah, but it's still 32 thoughts. Okay. Cause it's number of teams, right? Shout out to Jeff Merrick. You're missed buddy.

So 32 thoughts is a Rogers production that's literally advertised during hockey night in Canada. The Habs will be playing the Leafs, are you a hockey fan? Ish. Okay, so the Leafs will be playing the Habs on a Saturday night for, I'll make it up, three million people across the country are gonna tune in and they're gonna get an ad during the game,

not during the ad break, but they're gonna get an ad for 32 Thoughts of Elliot Friedman and Kyle Bukoskis. So Mike in his basements, that's who we're up against. But these examples are coming out of Rogers and they're coming out of CBC as we discussed. Chorus, shout out to Robbie Jay and, you know, and Alan Cross over there on the ongoing history of new music. I'm not sure what's going on with The Athletic, but they have a number of shows, right? And that's owned by the New York Times. Like these are the Canadian networks that are making some traction.

Is there any hope for an independent podcaster in the great white North? To be successful in the globe? To make any traction, to get any kind of a sense of, and again, we can define success later, money, is it a community that you've built? Whatever. We'll talk about that in a minute. Maybe you should define success later. Is it money? Is it a community that you've built? Whatever. We'll talk about that in a minute. Maybe you should just define success for me.

But if your goal was to monetize your podcast and you're an independent podcaster in this country, is this a bit like finding the unicorn during your Sunday morning walk? A little bit. I think like making money from a podcast is a difficult feat for anybody in the podcasting industry these days, even people who are coming from networks. It's so crazy. But yeah, so I wouldn't necessarily measure the success of your podcast on how many advertisers do you have on there, unless you really, really desperately want to make it a full time job. But the podcasts that are that are making their show a full time job are really getting supported

through crowdfunding, through Patreon, Supercast, and putting out paid episodes of their shows so people can subscribe to like a paid version on Apple and that kind of thing now. So I think that, yeah, you can find success through building a community and being the go-to podcast for whatever topic it might be, but it really comes down to like building an engaged community of people who are willing to give you money. And I think anybody can do that. Okay. So is it, is it as simple as creating compelling content and then making people aware?

Like how do you make people? I guess I'm curious that if you're not being backed by Canada land, which that would be this wide podcast like swig on his own. He can go make a podcast, but but he's got this team behind him at Canada land, this big network kind of behind him trying to double double crack in US market and whatnot. So if you're not in the CBC ecosystem or you're not curious casts new thing they're going to back or you're not going to be on the Rogers Network and advertised on hockey night in Canada on a Saturday night when the Leafs are playing the Habs. What are the chances you can even do anything more than create a podcast that a small collection

of your friends and family can enjoy and hear your voice? Yeah, I mean, you can totally grow community regardless of what size you are. I think your content definitely needs to be compelling. You definitely need to highlight your own personality and like kind of be vulnerable on your own show in any reasonable capacity that that might be. But then at the end of the day, growing your show comes down to two main things,

which is word of mouth and cross promotion. So you need to think about ways that you can actually get into the mouths of other people, your show, people talking about it, and collaborating with other shows that have shared communities or something similar. So a lot of times I'm talking to people about finding collaboration and cross-promo opportunities

and they think, oh, well, I have a hockey podcast, I should advertise my podcast on another hockey podcast. But it kind of gets deeper than that. You need to start thinking about like, what are the values that you showcase on your show? Like who is it that makes you unique about why you host this show? Maybe you're a feminist hockey podcast.

Maybe you should go on to a feminist show and bring hockey to the conversation. So there's a lot of different ways to think about it and then grow your show from there, but it's always like an ongoing effort forever and ever and ever as long as you have your show There is no like one way to do it and just hope for the best you kind of it's just an ongoing game Is that typically the first question you get asked like if you're at a dinner party or something? It's like like but is it how to monetize? How do I monetize my podcast? Yeah, pretty much all the time

It's how do I how do I get a big audience and how do I monetize my show? And also should I do video? Oh, video. Okay. Should I do video? Depends. Good answer. Okay. So back to the, back to the theater of the mind here in the audio presentation. Okay. So when you get hit with that question, do you give them the dose of real talk or do they, do you feel like I don't want to like shatter any dreams here? I'm going to sort of be very positive with my reply about this whole like how do I monetize my independent podcast? I always I'm always pretty honest, I think I say I'll say things I think in like a polite, easy to kind of hone in on like way but I think most of the time when I'm talking to

people about this stuff, they're appreciative that I'm open and honest about how it goes. Well, as am I, and I am glad you're here. How's it going so far? It's going great. I'm going to check your temperature here. I'm getting a little warm. Well your seat's hot. It is the hot seat. Didn't Al Greggo tell you that that's the hot seat?

He did not prepare me enough for this. See the difference is he pays me to come on so he gets much nicer treatment than you're getting because you didn't give me anything to come on. Okay. So I have a question because this is a real life thing that happened to me very recently. So there, uh, I'll name it. I don't actually care. So the Toronto star is got a network of podcasts and I had a call with somebody at the Toronto star who was interested in Toronto, Mike, this podcast you're on right now joining their network. Ooh. So I'm curious about that reaction, too. So I heard them out almost like a presentation.

I think I thought I was going to buy a timeshare at the end of this thing. OK, and I heard him out. And then because I'll hear anyone out, anyone can pitch me anything like anyone can pitch me on anything and I'll hear you out, even if it's the a terrible idea. OK, I'll hear you out. So I did totally soak this in and I promised I'd noodle it code for, let me think about it on a bike ride or whatnot, or a kayak or something like that. But let me ask you, Katie, what's the benefit of an independent podcaster joining a network

like that? Like, like what is the benefit? There's a couple of benefits that are up to you to decide whether or not you want them. So one could be full time pay benefits. And if that's what you need, I don't think I don't get the sense they're paying a full-time benefits job out of this one. Sometimes it's an offer. Sometimes it's not, but it's something to think about. And honestly, sometimes that's all people want. They just want to be able to talk into a mic and get looking for a job. Yeah, exactly. And they want to just be happy with what they do every single day.

The second benefit is, I would say, it's usually cross promotion. And that's usually what it comes down to with networks is being able to grow your audiences through promoting your show on other shows on the network. And because of that, usually the network has a larger audience in general. Maybe they have some sponsorships coming in.

And then you don't have to worry about that stuff so much. So it's nice to kind of that. That to me was the big benefit is that they have like a sales team is going to sell. Yeah. And depending on your downloads, you're going to get some percentage of this pie. Like you're going to get your side. I can't tell you how big your slices. It depends on how many downloads you can stuff. But this pie, we've got a sales force that's going to be baking this pie. And we're going to give you a slice.

It might be a tiny slice or whatever, but then you don't have to go buy your own or make your own pie. Yeah. And I think that's ultimately what it comes down to is like what I'll just call the resources that they have for you. Like at the end of the day, they might have somebody else edit your show for you. Like you might just have better work-life balance when you join some sort of network that gives you the amount of resources. Wait, wait, people edit their shows? Just kidding, Katie. Yeah, it just I think it depends on what the resources that they have.

It's nice to have those extra pieces, especially like a little bit of extra money to, let's say it was like Rodgers that wanted your show, All of a sudden they can promote your show during the hockey game. They actually asked me if I'd be general manager for the Toronto Blue Jays next season. No way. And I said go f yourself. I am a Toronto Maple Leaf baseball man myself. Okay. Please continue. I'm more of a Brantford Red Sox gal, but okay. You know, next time I'm telling you, cause I, uh, right here, right here, right here. Yep. Okay. So they're a proud partner of this program and they'll be back for 2025 and when Branford plays Toronto at Christie pits, I'm going to be looking for you. I'll be there. Or you could come to the brand.

I'll get you a hot dog and a beer. Oh yeah. Those games are always elite. They're so good. Well, I'll take care of you if you do make it out to Christie pits for a Branford, Toronto, IBL team. Okay. so my thoughts, I'll just be very honest. That's why I wanted you here because I just want to talk. So I heard the pitch and I was thinking to myself, why the fuck would I ever want to join a network when I'm fiercely independent? Like I mean, unless and they didn't do this, but if the Toronto Star wanted to offer me

a signing bonus of some large sum, now I have something to think about. But since they're not doing that, I can't imagine giving up the full and total autonomy I have. I have literally spent and here I'm going to do a little humble break here, but I have what year is this 2024? I for 12 years now, I have literally spent all my blood, sweat and tears. It's good band by the way, to create what I consider

to be my own private radio station. I have, you know, we talked about the RSS. Very much what the vibe of this place is. Well, really sometimes I don't pay attention to the feed, but I might drop like a 19, I don't pay attention to the feed, but I might drop like a 19. I don't know. At 1999, live to air recording of Martin Streak at the Phoenix. Okay.

Someone who listens will say, Hey, I recorded this the cassette back in the 90s. You can rip like and rip it to MP3 and you can you can have this and I'll be like, I want to share this on my personal private radio station. Like there's a whole bunch of stuff. Sometimes one day I was on a ride and I was thinking, Canada's got its own Macarena. You know this song? Of course you do though. Hey Macarena.

Like Canada's got its own version. And I'm like, what's that about? And I literally just went back, got on my bike ride and I took the real version and I took our version and I did some research and I put together this thing like, like this is where we're at now. I'm working on a very special piece of audio on the collapse of the 1987 Toronto Blue Jays. OK, now this might not appeal to you, Katie, because, you know, you're a little man. What do you care about the collapse? But for for a certain segment of the listenership, this is crack cocaine

I'm offering up. Yeah, okay And it's in my I have a feed and I can create this content and I can distribute it through my own private radio station Why the fuck Katie would I ever give that up? What amount of money would it take for me to say? Okay now I'm under your umbrella on your network I'm giving up my autonomy. I'm giving up my autonomy, I'm giving up my fierce independence. I don't get it. I don't get it either.

Like to be honest, I wouldn't make that decision. I would probably stay fiercely independent if I was you because I mean, it depends because some networks and CBC mentioned this recently at Pod Summit, YYC in Calgary recently, how sometimes you join their network. They don't take any IP from your show. They just let you do it, do whatever the heck you want with it. And I think Sick Boy is a really great example of that,

where they are based in the East Coast. They've been making their show for years and they just joined CBC. So they joined because there was more money to be part of the CBC network than to do it independently. I think they joined because they could do whatever the heck they wanted with their show. But they could do whatever the heck they want without the CBC. But they had the network to cross promote on. So it added a little bit of credibility to their show.

And I think that's all that they really wanted at the end of the day because it's still that show Sick Boy is a Snack Labs production, which is the name of their studio labs and CBC just puts it on their network and that's it. So now so just get back to the geeky part So so now it's a CBC RSS feed that distributes sick boy Yes, it is but when your poly of defunds this thing and that network is shuttered They're gonna have to start from scratch with their own feed. Well, I don't think the feed is gonna die like a meat. I know you know it you're more trusting human than I am I think the T the feed migration would be the easiest part to be honest I've seen bigger servers shut off with no notice, but yeah, you know one thing I was on well

I worry, but this is part of being fiercely independent as you own your domain name You own your address for your RSS feed like like yeah,cely independent is you own your domain name you own your address for your RSS feed like yeah So long as you own that domain name, they can't take that away from you Yeah, and there's something nice about that and you might leave a couple of bucks on the table, but you sleep better Yeah, it depends on the network like it really depends on what they're offering you because some of them are like we don't want any Part of your IP. We just want you your Star was clear. They said we're not gonna interfere with your content. Yeah, we just want your show to be part of your IP. We just want you, your personality. The star was clear. They said, we're not going to interfere with your content.

Yeah, we just want your show to be part of our network. Were they going to give you a bunch of money for it? They were going to give me a slice of the pie. OK, so they weren't going to pay you outright for the IP.

They were just going to be like, no, you're part of it. And now you're part of the ecosystem. Now that you're in the ecosystem, I don't know, they're probably going to be cross well, but you're going to we have a big pie. Our salespeople are working or baking and you're going to have a slice. OK, we can't, you know, there's probably going to be cross promotion as well, but you're going to, we have a big pie. Our salespeople are working, are baking and you're going to have a slice.

Okay. We can't, you know, we can't commit to how big the slices bottom line is I left the convo appreciating their time. And I want to thank the wonderful FOTM. I think who helped broker this deal that I quietly laughed at during my bike ride, but I was really honored to be even asked because it's not like Rogers or CBC have ever knocked on my door or whatever And I was honored to be asked but I couldn't see a reason I would ever do that It is really interesting and exciting to me though that they are listening to you because you are fiercely independent

And my next guest is Ed Keenan from the Toronto Star. They got to make sure he's not talking at a school over there It is cool though, because I think it shows that people are looking for or big networks are looking for personality and just like genuineness to join rather than just like pure straight news because I think Canada is starting to step away from just pure news that they're putting out. Fascinating time again so this conversation and I'm not done with you yet Katie because there's other points I want to explore with you from community. I need a little more Canada land info but I still go back. So the state of the podcasting landscape in this country you think is is good and it's thriving. I think it's like I'm not even trying to say your opinion is wrong because you know what they say man

opinions are like assholes everybody's got one okay you're entitled to this opinion and it's an educated one because you live and breathe this space i really think this country is uh punching below its weight what do you mean by that okay so we're one tenth of the american populace right i would argue we're way below one per sorry 10 of uh north american uh listenership yeah i mean 55% of the Canadian population listens to podcasts. So that's exciting. I would call podcasts mainstream at this point. But yeah, I think like, yeah, but they're listening to smart lists. Seriously. And yeah, there's a Canadian on our list,

but that's not a Canadian more than 50% of those 55% of people are listening to Canadian content. So they're all listening to the Simpsons. They're like, people can are listening to Canadian content. So they're all listening to- I feel like the Simpsons are like, people can use numbers to prove everything. 55% of the people know that. 55% and the 55%, yeah. 10% of people know that. No, I think you're like,

there's a shit ton of room for improvement, 100%. I think if you were really good at your job up here, like Katie, I think you, and I don't know if your future husband knows this, but you'll be in New York City next week if you get that phone call. I was like I will be? If you get that phone call I can't promise you get a phone call but if you're good at what you do and it sounds like you're good at what you do and we'll talk more about Swig and everything but I think that you're gonna get a call from New York or something to join a big American network. If I did

it'd be tempting but I wouldn't I'm too much attached to the Canadian space at this point. You say that now, but the offer hasn't come in yet. I've built an entire brand around Canadian podcasting. Okay. Tell me about that then, because I don't want to leave this on the table here. Tell me about the brand that you've built and Pod the North and everything. Tell me about this. Yeah. So Pod the North is a newsletter that I write.

It's a bi-weekly newsletter. It comes out every other week. And it's all about what the heck is going on in the Canadian podcasting ecosystem. And it started because I was so frustrated as a freelancer about feeling like nobody was taking my work seriously and feeling the same for my colleagues and my fellow independent producers and all that stuff.

I was going to events like Hot Docs Podcast Festival before I was a freelancer and felt very separated between like CBC over here and freelancers over here and independent people over here. And it just didn't feel like anyone was connected. So that's what ultimately started Pod the North was me feeling like I needed to figure out what the heck was going on at CBC podcast because they always said there were those pitches open but then there was nothing coming out from independent creators. I have to say that, your tax money is funding them. I was like what the hell is going on there and then yeah I had an interview with CBC

about that and that kind of I think started the little bit of interest around pod the north was because I had that interview with them and was kind of like oh how many emails do you get per day? Oh and that's how many answer per day? Okay interesting. So people were like, oh okay. So that's been really the mission of Pod the North the whole time is to keep the ecosystem connected about what's going on around here. So if you want to know what's going on in the Canadian podcasting space you should subscribe and read Pod the North. Yes, Pod the North is the place to go for that.

And it's not too crazy of a newsletter. It's every two weeks. So I'm not spamming your inbox ever. And you find it's enjoyable to collect this data, this news. Like I just sometimes I hear crickets when I listen to what's going on in the Canadian podcasting, but you don't struggle to find good, good media content.

This is the thing, Mike, because when I started the newsletter, I have a little section in it that's like what's going on in the Canadian podcasting ecosystem and it's new releases events and just stuff you ought to know and Who I should change the title so it's like more Alanis Morissette She's my age But yeah, so that section is just gets bigger and bigger and bigger every single issue and maybe it's because I've Kind of tapped into more and more people in the Canadian ecosystem that I know about that are doing stuff since I started the newsletter But that section almost I've been considering making it its own

Piece that goes out because it's just so full of stuff and that to me signals growth in the Canadian podcasting space I hope I hope you guys trust me because literally literally my full time job is to run TMDS, which is to produce podcasts for Canadians. Nobody's rooting harder for the Canadian podcasting industry than I am. But I think that the only noise, some of the some of the how do I phrase this? Because I don't fix it in post, but most of the noise coming out of this country is coming from very large multi-billion dollar conglomerates who own their networks.

Yeah. Well, that's a problem. It is a problem. Like we need to make it so some guy in South Etobicoke could go buy a mic and sit in his basement and create something that will not only, you know, gain traction and get listenership, but he could, you know, send his kid to McGill and have a middle-class lifestyle and even have community events where, I don't know, a hundred people will come out to, you know, have a beer, have some delicious

food from a sponsor and network with fellow listeners of this podcast, like in not the virtual, but like in flesh. Like we need to create a space where that is not just a unicorn dream, but something very possible. Yeah, that's a definitely the case for the majority of podcasters where that's like, you can't put a kid through school on a podcast. You just cannot it's not possible for anybody Regardless of where you are about beauty school you just cool me It depends bring back the house of Lord Maybe BYU in the States because I heard it's only to cost like $1,500 to go there if you're a Mormon more

Okay, you know, I don't have any magic underwear. Okay, please. My wife told me there's a reality show with Yeah, Mormon wives. Do I have this right secret lives of Mormon wives? Okay, and she's explaining to me that there's a controversy with a swingers event Where one of them slept with someone's want to sleep with someone's husband or something? Yeah, I don't think they're good Mormons Well, am I wrong? I not a Mormon couldn't tell you Okay, shadow to the Osmonds. I don't know any other, like that's all I know. Or maybe Steve Young.

I feel like Steve Young. I don't know any Mormons. You don't know the Osmonds. No. Marie Osmonds and, okay. Oh wait, maybe I do. You do, I think you know the Osmonds. One bad apple can't spoil a whole bunch girl.

Right? Nope. Kind of like a Jackson five rip off. Just like in one ear and out the other. Okay, so here's some nice news for you, Katie, before we pick up what we've, yeah, I don't want to leave anything on the table here. Cause I don't know, it's a long drive from Bramford, but Leslie, Leslieville will be at TMLX,

I have to get the numbers right. TMLX 16 at Great Lakes Brew Pub at Jarvis and Queens Key. Leslie will be there with her cousin. Jano I can't wait to see you too. She says this is very informative. Oh good. I'm watching live I feel like I'm kind of all over the place. So that means a lot. Thank you. Come on. That's Toronto Mike. Okay, that's contagious It's actually I don't like it when something is so well structured and linear. I need the Sunglasses at night and then come back. Yeah, I need that linear. I need the sunglasses at night and then come back. I need that. Boxed Treats is a name I only know from Al Grego's Discord server. Do you know this name Boxed Treats? I think so.

I know this name because I pop in when I drop an episode, I go to promote your episodes on this Discord and I see Boxed Treats promoting recent episodes of their podcast boxed treats. But she but this I don't know, I'm going to sign a gender glasses on. I'm tapping out of that one, except to tell you, yeah, this is great with an exclamation mark from boxed treats. This is all good. I think I know who box treats is. OK, we love box treats.

I just I'm not familiar with all the discord names. I think my name on discord is Katie with like a thousand E's and a thousand T's or something. So right. Al Gregor we've mentioned a hundred times. He he's very big on these events. So tell me what the benefit is for somebody. I want you to kind of do a little bit of a sales pitch because yeah I'm fiercely independent doing my thing.

I'm I consider I own my own radio station. What content should I drop in the feed that would excite people? But I'm not going to these events that you are referring to left, right, and center. Like you're going to this event, you met Troy Burch at one. I produced their podcast. I'm still not going to the damn event.

I would love you to tell me the benefit of an independent podcaster attending these events. These industry events. Because to me it's like, oh, we're going to hear from, for example, oh, Maureen Holloway is going to speak at this event about her podcast, which is now on hiatus. Okay. Because they realized it's a lot of work and there isn't

nearly the money they thought was in it. And this is a classic person. Yes. This Wendy Mesley is a Canadian famous person. Wendy Mesley. Do you know this name? Nope. Oh my goodness gracious.

Okay. Wow. I don't know everybody. No, but Wendy Mesley is a very famous Canadian journalist. She's no longer with the CBC, but she was there for a very, very long time. So Wendy Mesley got together with Maureen Holloway, who is a hilarious, wonderful FOTM, who was on many radio stations you've listened to, maybe from Q107 to CHFI.

I would consider Maureen to be Toronto famous, and I would consider Wendy to be Canada famous, and they got together and made a podcast, and that, because they're famous, they're now the keynote speakers at one of these events. And I love these two women, I would have them on Toronto Mic'd in a second, I have had them on Toronto Mic'd,

but I don't think we're going to get the nuts and bolts of having a successful podcast and and and making great inroads as an independent podcaster for Maureen Holloway and Wendy Mesley. Yeah, I don't think that any podcast event you're going to go to is going to tell you how to make a successful podcast. I think there you're going to get how to make a successful podcast, I think you're gonna get how to make your podcast a more sustainable project basically for yourself. What does that mean?

So a lot of the times, I mean these, I'll get it, I have so many thoughts. Spill them out. Okay, so I think when you go to a podcast event, and this was me in the early days, pre-Pod the North, pre-freelancing, I was just an indie podcaster. This is a place where I found resources like, how are you editing this thing?

How much time are you spending editing this thing? Where do you find music from? Do you have to license your music? Do you make your guests sign a form before they go on the show? How do you approach even having on the show? Do you send your questions ahead of time? Do you not? All these questions, the indie podcasters very, very common for people who have nothing. But you're suggesting like there's a blueprint where there's a correct answer to any of those

No, I'm not suggesting that at all, Mike. I'm saying that this is a space where you can ask the same question to a bunch of people and figure out what the different answers are. Like this is the place where you actually build community. So you're not sitting in the panel watching people talk about how they do all these things. This is where you're going to like the wings of the the conference space and talking to people and actually being like, hey, what is your show? How do you do all this stuff and finding the varieties of different answers and figuring out what makes sense for you the most for the new Alan Zweig show, do you submit questions in advance? Like, do you have, do you share this? There are no questions. There are no questions on that show, if you've listened. But that's because it's the worst podcast ever.

That's exactly why. It's the worst podcast ever, yeah. So if you're looking for the worst podcast ever, you're producing one. Yes, it was a great title to wrap up my freelancing career on. What does that mean, you're no longer freelance? I'm no longer freelance.

In May I started working for a podcast growth agency. I don't know this. This is what I'm discovering now. Can you tell me? So you are now working for an actual agency. Yeah, so I still do a little bit of freelance consulting, but yeah, right now I work for a growth agency called Bumper where all of our clients are just looking for support

in consulting around growing their shows. Oh my god. Okay. So congratulations. Thank you. That's a that's more dependable cash flow. Exactly. Exactly.

Because freelance is feast or famine. Exactly. Yes. It's very chaotic. It's very stressful. I'm very happy to have somewhat of a welcome to my world. Okay. Chaotic and stressful.

That's my day to day for six years. Yeah, no. Same with mine. The last six years were chaotic and stressful and super, super fun. But yeah, that that full time gig kind of I don't know, the universe just got really lucky. So is the Canada land work done or are you still freelancing? Yeah. So we started actually producing that show a year ago. I ask you why it took a year. It's your question.

Takes forever to book celebrities on a show that for the first time ever. Okay, how big are these celebrities? Because the first one with Tompkins is not that big. I mean, I feel like I could have him tomorrow. Tompkins is probably our biggest guest. I could have him tomorrow. Like to be honest with you. Yeah, I think all of our celebrities book because it's not Oprah.

No, it's not Oprah. But this is the thing was the first ever season of a celebrity interview podcast. And for anybody listening, I'm using air quotes, celebrity interview podcasts and booking celebrities like we thought we were going to get Paul Giamatti on at one point. We were really close. I we were stoked. That would have been huge. He's an A-lister. We did not get him.

Because you need names like that to get Americans interested. Yeah, but you have to start. You have to start. Yeah, you have to start with, especially when you're not a celebrity yourself, the smaller celebrities that will hopefully get you up there. But it took like, I don't know, probably half a year to get all the critical. But I feel like I could have built and destroyed several podcast agencies slash networks in the time it took to get this damn Allen's wide podcast most years a long time. If you said, okay, if Allen came to me and he, you know, we talk

a lot. He really we talk a lot. I'm actually hurt that he didn't just come to TMDS for this project, but he's like, okay, I want to launch this November 1st. I'm like, oh, that's lots of time. You know, I'm talking 2024 like a year. Yeah. But like most people don't make their podcast in the span that it takes to warm up Palma Pasta's lasagna, you know, 45 minutes, unlike yourself. You're just banging out podcast episodes within the matter of hours. That's my show. I produce shows for people that are heavily edited. Yeah. And still like Great Lakes Brewery has a great podcast called Between Two

Fermentors. Shout out to Great Lakes Brewery. It really is strong. And he'll come over on a Thursday morning, let's say. Oh no, let's say afternoon. He prefers that because, you know, it doesn't matter. He was here 10 a.m. last Thursday and he still cracked several Great Lakes beers. Okay, so they come over here. It's a guest.

It's Troy Burch and we have different segments. So I'll capture the interview. There's a rapid fire question. There's a around the industry segment. There's a rapid fire question. There's a around the industry segment. There's a smart guy named Cole who gives you kind of the science on it. It's a fascinating it's called cold notes. There's all these different segments and I'll capture the audio in this basement and it'll sound great. And then I go off and I edit and literally so we'll do it on a Thursday or Friday and this thing drops Tuesday morning. Okay. Yeah. I'm not saying between two, two fermenters is comparable to Alan's

Wigs, the worst podcast ever. I am not suggesting that for a moment, but I'm shocked when I saw on Twitter, one of the producers saying it was a year in the making. Yeah. I actually would, I actually fell out of my chair. This is the thing. I think I first got the call from Canada Land to be the producer on the show

in around like April, September of last year, maybe October. And then like the first like three months were literally just talking about the show and like catching a vibe from Alan about like what he wanted it to be, how he was thinking about it. And you've met Alan,

that is a conversation that happened numerous, numerous, numerous times. I'm an Alan whisperer. You should have brought me in as a consultant. Become an Alan whisperer. I would like, no, Alan would hate if I say that, but no. He's listening. Don't worry. I'm well aware he's listening. So I think like for the first three-ish months

was talking about, just talking about the show, what the heck it was gonna be, how many episodes we were gonna do, what we even wanted them to be like, how we were gonna frame scripting the show. How did he get the gig? How did he become the host of this show? Is it because somebody inside is a massive

Zweighed from vinyl, et cetera? Well, as far as I understand, Alan pitched the show to Canada Land. No, but not the Canadian Jewish News. I gotta tell Wiseblog this. Okay, please continue. His original idea was to have sort of like regular downery kind of conversations and actually Alan would be the one to ask this to, but he wanted to have regular conversations

with regular people. But then it was Canada Land and Julie Shapiro who were like, hey, well, we need to make this something that would be... We need celebrities. We need celebrities. We need Paul Giamatti. I think it was Jesse Brown who was like, let's bring on the celebrities and get him to be this like curmudgeonly style interviewer to ask some questions. Get Eddie Vedder on.

So that's kind of, I think, and then also Alan Black who was COO at the time, he was a massive swag head. So he was stoked. He's a very, very talented documentary filmmaker. Yes, yes, and Alan Black who was COO was also working at Hot Docs for a long time. So he's like a big documentary film guy. Yeah. So he was like really big advocate for everything's wide could bring to the table. Right. And then so Brown and the gang decide we need a celebrity. We need a celebrity podcast.

Americans fucking love celebrities. And they really do. They do. they really do. They do. They really do. And it doesn't even have to be a big celebrity because Paul Tom, how do you say his name? Paul F. Tompkins. Yeah, see, I know him as a voice on BoJack Horseman. And I know of him, like he's around things

that I kind of dig, but I will tell you right now, he's not a famous person. Well, it's funny. I think he is famous to a lot of people, but he's not a famous person. Well, it's funny, like I think he is famous to a lot of people, but he's not famous. He's famous to a subset of nerds, but like the general, here's what I always say, just rush hour, go to the Young Blue subway station

and just grab a hundred people that are there to get home from their day at the office or whatever. Grab a hundred random people and say that, who is, and say that name, say the name again. Paul F. Tompkins. tomkins yeah so and i would be like oh yeah like he's um mr butterworth what's his name peanut butter mr peanut butter on bojack horseman and i can know who we're talking now it's all coming back to smart list now again but get out of here smart list he's all over the hip doc too like the guy but uh he's only

a canadian passport only at this point. Okay. That's now an American. Okay. But he's not Paul Giamatti. He's not a name that most of the overwhelming majority of people that you pulled out of the subway car will not know that name or who the hell that is. Listen, Mike, I tried my best to be a celebrity.

No, no, because if it's you, I really don't want to do that. No, I'm not trying to be critical of it. I'm just getting a lot of hate over here. I'm not sure. You had Ron McLean as one and I love that man. I've had the best conversations with that guy. I saw him Saturday night. I think he's amazing, but no American knows that name. Yes.

So I'm just trying to understand what you're doing there. Yeah, well, I'm just doing my best, Mike. I'm just really doing my best. Well, you're gone from there now. It sounds like you moved on. I have moved on. Okay. Does Wig know that? Yes, he knows.

How is he handling Katie leaving on? He didn't like that. So will season two have a new Katie? Are you replaceable? Who knows? We have absolutely no idea, but I'm definitely replaceable. This is fascinating to me that you're gone.

I had no idea you were gone. Yeah, yeah, I'm gone. Why didn't Canada Land just gobble you up out of Freelanceville? And they have some, you you know strip money what's that a bit strip money over there they've i've seen their patreon okay that's a huge money making enterprise at canada land yeah they didn't pluck you out of uh freelanceville and said hey you're now a full-time uh producer editor whatever you're doing over there we need you on team canadaland

they did not why not did you apply and you tap the right shoulder? No, I didn't apply. I don't really want to work for Canada Land full time. Why not? Because I'm going on over there. I like some other companies better. You're only here for this conversation. That was all just I didn't even record that first part. Now we begin. Why are you so happy to be out of Canada Land?

To be out of Canada Land? Well, to be clear, my Canada land was one of like 1400 freelance gigs that I had. So, right. OK, but that is your highest profile gig to date. But yeah, definitely. And your voice is all over this. It's not just for that. Yeah, it is. It is.

It's all over it. I mean, there's definitely a lot of drama in the Twitter sphere going on with Canada land that I don't want to be associated with. However, I am at this point. And if anybody's curious about that, just go on to Twitter and Okay, the real talk has hit at the what time is this the one hour mark? Okay, well, you know, it's gone very long. I feel like I've taken a lot of your time. So let's do this.

I don't want you to leave anything here on the cutting room floor. I just would love to hear your thoughts on in personperson community events outside of these, I'm not talking about these, like, oh, buy a ticket and come to podcast convention at whatever, like I'm not talking about these things that I know Al Grego gets Meneres to pay for these things. Okay, I don't think Al's buying these tickets, but out comes to these things.

I know Troy Burch came to one, you're at all these things. Yeah, for the most part, yeah. What about like, I know Al's good at this more virtually because I think he's a lot of American listeners, but like if your podcast, let's say Toronto Mike, for example, because I'm, I can actually speak to that. Like I love the fact that we're going to have seven at the end of this year, we will have had 17 in-person events. Some of them are at Great Lakes Brewery, some have been at Palmer's Kitchen, some are at the first one at the GLB Brew Pub at Jarvis and Queens Quay,

but we've had a few during the pandemic in a public park where we just drink beers in a public park. That's so nice. Thank you, COVID. You and I both benefit, just kidding. But tell me about, so you create your podcast, obviously the monetization question is a pain in the ass question

that you're probably sick of hearing. But how important is it to garner a community from your listenership? It's massively important I'll refer to something that Jeremy ends He is a fellow Canadian based off of there are two Jeremy ends is who are Canadian the one I'm referring to runs a newsletter called Scrappy Marketing. He coined a term called legwork marketing, which is one of my favorite things and I think all podcasters should be doing, which is literally like hitting the pavement and going and talking

to people in person. And this is where podcast events can be really great because you can find people to collaborate with and cross promote your podcast, but it expands outside of just podcast, podcast conferences as well. Like if you have, even if you have just like a chat show where it's just like a couple of you and your girlfriends, like drinking beers and like just shooting the shit, like think about the things that you end up talking a lot, which if it's a couple of girlfriends drinking beers, it's probably going to be a lot of sex talk. So like maybe you go to a sex show, like maybe you go to and talk to like a local sex store

and think about having them be a sponsor on your show. Like there are so many other places that you can think of when it comes to like legwork marketing and community events that would match your show that can help you elevate it. So yeah, thinking about podcast conferences are a great place to like find people to connect with and build relationships with is massive because everything in podcasting is a relationship game. But then outside of that, you can go to like conferences and meetups and that type of stuff within your vertical to write like sort of like your listeners

can gather. Yeah. Yeah. Like I have a My Indie podcast, Curious Tourism is a- Well, tell me about this before we say goodbye. You have- I actually have two podcasts. Well, okay, well, let's not bury the leads, okay. Tell me about your two podcasts. Yeah, so the one is the first podcast that I started doing independently with my friend, Aaron,

which is Curious Tourism. It's a responsible travel podcast where we just relaunched it this month. So we look at- That's Aaron Hines. Aaron Hines, yeah we look at the- I'm taking notes over here. It's a podcast about making travel better

for people on the planet. So if you're critical about the travel industry but still want to travel, this is the podcast for you. And my other show is called Canardian, which is something I do completely independently. I host it and produce it. And it is my sneaky way to highlight other Canadian

podcasters. So every episode I have a Canadian podcaster on to gossip about their hometown. So you need to be, it helps to be from like a small town. Helps to be from anywhere because if you're from Toronto, I'll focus on like the specific neighborhood that you're from. Why have I never, serious question, why have I never been invited to be on Canardian? Because there's only been one season so far But also I'm trying to not get into the are you from Toronto Mike? I was born at st. Joe's in Parkdale. Oh my god. So yeah, we should totally do a Parkdale episode together. I've only ever lived in Toronto actually I don't know if that's pathetic or not. No, that's great. Yeah So I'm I'm trying to make sure that the next season is stacked with a diverse range of people

from all over the country. So it's hard when a lot of people are based in Toronto and grew up in Toronto. Katie, I needed this. I needed somebody in the space, an intelligent person like you to come over just to bounce some thoughts on. And again, I don't even mean to sound... I wasn't even... Now, as I listen back to myself, I hope I wasn't crapping on the worst podcast ever with Alan's wig not my show

I and Alan knows this I don't think you'll find a bigger swag head like I mean there's a reason I invite this cranky pants over is because I love the characters in the city and I Consider Alan's why one of the great characters in the city and I love his work so I want to talk to the guy so I root for the guy and I should and as I as I should and and Alan is very nervous about the podcast like he sends me emails like all the time being like do people like it do people hate it I think you're only telling me good he's trying to become Joe Rogan what's no I think he doesn't even want it to the

podcast why is he doing it then because he just feels obliged in some capacity He pitched Canada land and he doesn't even want the show. This man needs help. Now if you're going to pitch a network on a show that you don't actually want to have, you need to talk to somebody. It has to be a good pitch because Michael from the Sonar Network will not appreciate that. Again, again, much like we talked about Maureen Halloway, this is the problem I feel is this celebrity worship, which I fucking hate, by the way, because if I were a celebrity worshipper who only had on Gino Vannelli and Chuck D and Ron McLean,

guess who would never be in my basement for an episode? Guess. I don't know. Katie Lor. You would never be here right now. If I only talk to famous people, celebrities that people want me to talk to, you would never get the call. Colin James, come on down.

Okay. Katie lore would never ever be in this basement because you're not famous, not famous. No. So I don't want that show. I don't want that show, but everybody wants that show. And I mentioned earlier and I, I, I respect Wendy Leslie. I don't know her that well, but I really like show. And I mentioned earlier, and I respect Wendy Mesley, I don't know her that well, but I really like Maureen Holloway who's been over here several times,

held my fourth born when she was a baby. I've got that photo. Oh, you're that close. We're that close. She comes over, she holds the baby. I was with her BFF John Moore on Saturday night having a great chat. Maureen Holloway, shout out to John Moore.

But these are famous people. Alan Zweig is a famous person, whether he likes it or not, he's a famous person particularly in this country. And most of us, because before I ever met Alan Zweig, I would watch TVO at night and watch the vinyl, for example, and I would sit there and go, I like this. Who made this? This is right in my wheelhouse. I'm digging this vibe with this documentary. Oh, it's some guy named Alan Zweig. So Alan Zweig, Wendy Mesley, Maureen Holloway, these are famous people. What the hell are guys like Toronto Mike and Leslie Taylor and Katie Lorre supposed to

fucking do when everything is about celebrity now? Well, you make a show like Canadian and you just tap into the Canadians who want to feel seen and that's what I'm doing with my show. Well, long may you run. Shout out to future FOTM Neil Young. Any final thoughts? Like is there anything that we left? I don't want to leave anything on the table because Brantford's a long way away. I thoroughly enjoyed this. I'm gonna get your lasagna before we take our picture here But is it anything you want to share with the FOTM's listening right now?

I mean, I did say that Canada has is doing great, but there's definitely a lot of room. I think we're doing shitty Like I was I knew you were gonna say we're doing great cuz I listened to you on another show talking about and that's why When I phrase that question, what show was that you were on a show one year ago today? Oh, yeah Okay, and I found it on YouTube when I phrase that question. What show was that? You were on a show one year ago today. Oh, yeah. OK, and I found it on YouTube. The home of all your favorite podcasts. OK, so show us that. I don't remember the name, but they were they weren't Canadian

and they literally just said present to us. And you literally presented a PowerPoint slideshow. Yeah, that wasn't a podcast. Well, you earlier in this fucking program, Katie, you defined podcast as a piece of audio. I disagreed with you. I think it needs to be a presentation, but captured audio captured for YouTube. Like I heard your voice.

OK. And you made this and I don't agree with you. I don't think you can just throw together a piece of audio and call it a podcast. You need the well, you call it RSS. I call it XML, but you need that syndication mechanism, which is open source and nonproprietary. Nobody owns XML. I can go right now and create an app that will parse an XML file and deliver you podcasts. That's the beautiful thing.

That's the democratic, beautiful, egalitarian thing about podcasts. Nobody owns XML. Apple will tap into it. Spotify will tap into it. Amazon will tap into it. My app of choice podcast, Addict will tap into it. Amazon will tap into it. My app of choice podcast, Addict will tap into it. I can now put a piece of audio in a public web server and submit this XML file, which you call an RSS feed like many do. And that is now indexed and people in

real time are getting these episodes served up to their smartphone. It's a beautiful thing. Making a piece of audio and throwing it on SoundCloud is not a podcast, but we're agreeing to disagree on that. We're agreeing to disagree on that. We're agreeing to disagree on that. I don't need to agree with you on everything, but I am sick and tired of the celebrity worship. It's enough for me to shut this fucking thing down. Celebrity worship sucks.

It's ruining everything. And independent podcasters need to rise up and focus on compelling content and stop worrying about how they're going to monetize this. What's the best practice for that? Create compelling content and put it into the ecosystem. And if somebody discovers it because you shared it on Facebook or Instagram or LinkedIn or Twitter or whatnot, they're going to tell 20 friends because the most exciting thing somebody can do. And I love this is tell their friends about this independent Canadian podcast they discovered that they love and they will

share that love Katie and if you build it they will come that's what I was gonna say I really enjoyed this conversation so glad are you an Alan friend still yeah I would think so we saw him right now and I'm gonna put him on speak oh god this is the thing I think I'm gonna put him on speakerphone and ask him. Oh god, this is the thing. I think I'm Alan's friend, but I don't know if Alan thinks he's my friend. I don't know if Alan is a crusty guy. Alan is my friend. I don't know if I'm his friend. He's a curmudgeonly guy, so it's hard to tell if Alan likes you.

Even though he listens to Toronto Mic'd all the time for a long time now, to Toronto Mike all the time for a long time now. I'm not sure he likes Toronto Mike because I get a lot of constructive feedback about Toronto Mike and I know when Robert Lawson came on to talk about Randy Backman and the lies Randy told, Alan felt bad for Randy. And that might be the first time somebody felt bad for Randy Backman, but I don't feel bad for Katie Lohr.

You're going to get a lasagna. We're going to take a photo. And I love this very much. And that brings us to the end of our 1,556th show. You can follow me at Toronto Mike. I'm all over the place, but go to torontomic.com. Katie, if somebody wanted to subscribe to Pod the North, which is a newsletter that you work very hard on and talks about Canadian podcasting, where should they go? Go to podthenorth.com or.ca. Much love to all who made this possible. That is Great Lakes Brewery. Hello again

Detroit. Palma Pasta don't leave without your lasagna Katie. Will not. And congrats again on the engagement. Thank you. Recyclemyelectronics.ca, Raymond James Canada, and Ridley Funeral Home, pillars of the community since 1921. See you all Thursday when Ed Keenan drops by for his quarterly. Maybe he can pitch me on joining the Toronto Star Podcast Network. Stay tuned! See you then. Everything is coming up, rosy and gray Yeah, the wind is cold with the smell of snow Won't be the day

And your smile is fine and it's just like mine And it won't go away Cause everything is rosy and gray Well, I've been told know it's true, yeah I know that's true, yes I do I know it's true, yeah I know it's true