Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Ken Daniels: Toronto Mike'd #318

Episode Date: March 23, 2018

Mike chats with Ken Daniels about his years at The Fan, calling Leafs games, working for CBC Sports, working at Hockey Night in Canada, joining Mickey Redmond in the booth calling Detroit Red Wings games and his son Jamie.

Welcome to episode 318 of Toronto Mic'd, a weekly podcast about anything and everything. Proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, a fiercely independent craft brewery located here in Etobicoke. Did you know that 99.9% of all Great Lakes beer remains here in Ontario? GLB, brewed for you, Ontario. And propertyinthesix.com. Toronto real estate done right. And Paytm. An app designed to manage all of your bills in one spot.

Download the app today from paytm.ca. And our newest sponsor, Camp Tournesol, the leading French summer camp provider in Ontario. I'm Mike from torontomike.com, and joining me is Detroit Red Wings play-by-play announcer, Ken Daniels. Welcome. Nice to be here. Thank you. You know, 318, that's crazy. Ken Daniels Welcome Nice to be here

Thank you You know 318 That's crazy You know why? Why? My birthday is March the 18th Get out of here

318 This is I don't know what it means But it's got to mean something, right? Well, I'm big into numbers And I write about that in my book And my mother always said this to me as a child, because Lord Stanley of Preston donated the Stanley Cup at a banquet in Ottawa on March the 18th, 1892. I was born on March the 18th.

My mother said I was destined to do what I've done, unfortunately enough, when I went to Detroit. The Red Wings won a Stanley Cup my first year there and then two more since, so three in all. So March the 18th, 3-18 means a lot. And I believe there's something to that. And here I am, episode 3-18. Very cool. Thanks. And it's kind of, this came together very quickly

because, I mean, Detroit's playing the Leafs tomorrow night. That's why you're in town. But you came here straight from the airport. And we only planned this, I think, maybe less than a week ago we planned this. Yeah. I'm wondering if you manipulated the numbers. You did some math. You said, hey, if I get in there right now, I can get 318.

No, I didn't. But it is because we were going to be at the airport. And I thought, you know what? We've been trying this. We first touched base about a year ago. And I've been listening to you from the early episodes before we even got to 10 or 20. So a long time. Wow, you're the guy. Yeah, not 100% or as Humble and Fred might say.

I actually heard about you, I think, through Humble and Fred because when they started their podcast, I was immediately listening because knowing Fred and Howard was my brother's attorney for a short time when he lived in Calgary. And my brother Gary is still in Calgary. So that's what I heard about you through Humble and Fred, I believe. So I've been listening to podcasts for a long time. You pass a lot of time for me in the car, drives downtown, drives in during the summer. I come a few times because my family's still here in Toronto. So it's wonderful. No, thank you.

That's great. And yeah, Humble and Fred was I had the best seat in the house when they launched that thing back in I'm gonna say October 2011 I think so it's your fault it's my fault uh but even before that I don't know were you listening we would do one-offs like I'd get a call and it's like hey we're gonna meet at Dan Duran's house and record something for Christmas like it back in 2006 or something like that and I they would create their MP3 and then they would say to me literally like, okay, we have content here. What's a podcast? Can you take it from here? And I'm like, yep, that's what I'm here for. So doing all that backend stuff and watching those guys do what they do for six months, I had this itch. I also had an idea. What if I bought some gear and tried it myself?

So thank you for listening. I'm glad I could join you in those car rides. Yeah. That's very cool. That's great. I think you do a wonderful job. You're very well researched. And, you know, and for me, and I think any of us in the business that we're in,

and many of those who you've spoken with, just have a passion for what they do. And to hear their passion and the stories. And so many of our stories are so similar. That's what's amazing. And I know you've had Brian Williams in here and he was my mentor. I wrote to him when I was 17. You had Dave Hodgin here, who I grew up listening to on The World Tonight on CFRB when I was 10 years old, going to sleep listening on the radio. So the people you've had on, I hear their stories. It's great. You're stealing my thunder there.

I have the letter. I have the letter here. I will be reading it shortly. And I have, later, I have a very important Dave Hodge question for you. Okay. Because I've got a fascination with something Dave did, and I had a great conversation. And I know we're going to get to this later, so we're not talking about it.

Paul Romanuk, I basically extracted from him his perception of everything because he was there that day. Ron McLean was there that day. I did the same with him. Of course, I did it with Dave Hodge. He's been here a couple of times, and I'm going to do it with you, Ken,

so I'm going to get to that. You're here because you call Red Wings games. Red Wings are playing the Leafs tomorrow night at the ACC. We can still call it that, I think. It's next year. We've got to find the new name. But this is the first time, I think,

this is the first time since 81-82 that the Red Wings have missed the playoffs in back-to-back seasons. 82-83, I think. 79. Oh, yeah. You might be right. It's 83.

Well, the first time in the Illich era that they've missed in back-to-back years. It's a rebuild for the hockey team. It's going to happen. It's going to happen to Pittsburgh in a few years. It's happening with Chicago now, who had to shed salary. It's a salary cap world. Up until

a year ago, the Red Wings were the only team since in the cap era that had made the playoffs every year. That's right. It's not an easy thing to do. And when your average draft pick, I think maybe over the last 20 years for Detroit might be around 36, and I kid you not. So when you're drafting into the second round and your top picks, you need to draft high in the draft, and that's what they're building to do now with 11 picks this June.

Well, welcome to our world. We're used to these back-to-back playoff misses in Toronto. I live some of them. I was doing Maple Leaf games in the early 90s, so I remember. Oh, yeah, I know. We're going to get to that too, for sure. Actually, I'm really excited to have you on. I think I had a conversation about having you on even longer than that year ago when we talked.

Greg Brady, is he a friend? Yeah, sure, very much. I think Greg and I talked about getting Ken here. This is way back. So it's wonderful to have you, but you I think Greg and I talked about getting Ken here. This is way back. So it's wonderful to have you. But you're missing something. No, I'm hearing this.

You're hearing this. I can't go for that. No can do. This is evidence I read your book. All in oats. We're going to get to the book. But just right off the top, I'll tell people that Ken Daniels did write a fantastic book. See this? You can't fake these dog-eared things.

Well, maybe you could. But I did not. If These Walls Could Talk is the book you wrote, and we'll get to that in more detail. What was I going to say about, Greg? No, I was going to say what you're missing, and I'm disappointed. I should have known it wasn't around anymore,

but your mustache. Oh, that's not right. When I got to the door, I'm like, where's the rest of you? It went in 95, that porno mustache. It's all over the book, I'm like, where's the rest of you? It went in 95, that porno mustache. It's all over the book, right? You got all these old photos of yourself. Yeah. There's a lot of your mustache in the book.

I'm surprised, actually, I got someone to marry me with that mustache. We still had mulligans on that one. I'm on to number two now. However, that in itself was amazing. But you know it was the Tom Selleck era, and you did those things, right? No, there was a lot of mustaches back then. There were a lot of mustaches around then. Yeah, there were.

Ned Flanders still has a mustache. Yeah. Soup strainer. I'm playing Hall & Oates, because we're going to go back in time a little bit here. This was your favorite band, right? It probably still is. I mean, the revivalists I love now and some newer stuff, but Beatles, Hall & Oates, Earth, Wind & Fire, Chicago, Neil Young, even Boston Eagles. Yeah, but Hall & Oates were top of the list for me with Earth, Wind & Fire and the Beatles.

And I mean, I enjoyed your book thoroughly. In fact, it's interesting when I read your book because there's a lot of it's about Detroit stuff. But what I really loved was like before you get to Detroit, like I liked every little detail in there, but for obvious reasons, but when you talked about this, I can't go for that. And you mentioned your dad and I thought, what, what,

what way to bring you back since we're going to kind of bring you back to go into school in Toronto, a little hollow notes. And this is, this is a good jam. I'd say it's, I want to say, I don't think it's like for you who were young at the time,

like for a guy like me, I don't know how cool it is to talk about how much you like a Hall & Oates song. I know. Isn't it weird? And yet they're the top pop selling duo of all time. And I like them so much because it's that era for me and my buddy, Rich Kaplan, who's an agent here in Toronto now, and he turned me on to Hall & Oates, and I've loved him ever since, and I'm going to see them again.

They're going to be at Little Caesars Arena in May. I've probably seen them as many times as many people go out to see Springsteen. That's the guy that... You're right. Most guys your age are out seeing Springsteen for the 60th time. And I like Springsteen, too.

I played tennis with John Oates in the early 80s in Lake Placid, New York. Get out of here. They were staying at the same hotel. I was going to a fantasy camp where I first met Gordie Howe, and Paul Crowley had run the fantasy camp, who would later scout for Detroit. And I went down there, and I was working for CJCL,

so I weaseled it in, figuring, you know what? I can kill two birds with one stone. I can do a report and go play hockey with Gordie Howe and company and Johnny Bauer and Eddie Schach. And as I drove into Lake Placid, there is the big billboard Hall and Oates in concert tomorrow night. Golden. They stayed at the hotel, went down in the morning, saw John Oates.

He was waiting for one of his band members to come out. So I hit a few balls with John, got a picture with him. I'd still like to get that picture signed by John Oates. So hopefully at one of the concerts down the road, I'll get to do that. Did John Oates inspire the mustache? No, we both had it. As a matter of fact, I had gone to see him at a concert

at a small venue, and he was going to sign it for me. A friend of mine had actually taken the picture, held it up, and he looked at it as he was playing the guitar, and he went one of those faces like, whoa. He used to have the mustache, I used to have the mustache, and we both grew up since then. So did Gino faces like, whoa. Like he used to have the mustache. I used to have the mustache. And we both grew up since then. So did Gino Retta, unfortunately.

Yeah, but he made, you know, still he got mugs out of that. The Gino mugs. Oh yeah, Jay and Dan did that. That's right. That's right. Yeah. This song had a resurgence later. So I got to.

You know, this song was supposed to be, he's a rich boy. No, that's what you're here for. I need these facts. Yeah. When Daryl wrote the song, you're a rich boy. It was what you're here for i need these facts when daryl wrote the song you're a rich boy it was from a high school kid they knew it was really spoiled and then it didn't work and he changed it to you're rich girl work better change it definitely yeah smart smart one on that one but uh and i'm trying to remember i think was it sampled or

something in a song we're going back like five or seven years or something there was a hit sampling this i think uh and so all the kids like my 13 year old stuff they all all of a sudden they all knew rich girl like it became making a comeback yeah hey see i'm kicking out the jams right now with you without really i gotta go when they release next season's nhl schedule i gotta look for the next the saturday night game where detroit comes to whatever they're calling the acc next year yeah uh get you back to kick out the jams. We could do that.

But you won't get a Hall & Oates as number one. It'll probably be Beatles or Eagles or something like that. But I do love Hall & Oates. The Beatles are the most, not surprisingly, are the most kicked out jam artist. Yeah. But yeah, that's all. You don't mind if we just play Hall & Oates and then... Go for it. I mean, that's all. You don't mind if we just play hollow notes and then... Go for it. I'm in.

That's okay. It makes me seem very poppy and older, but you know, it's okay. You went to school in Toronto. By any chance, was it French immersion or just English only? Just English only. I went to school where Drake went to school. Forest Hill.

Forest Hill. You started from the bottom like Drake. That's right. Except I probably attended more classes than he did. I don't know. He was doing all that Degrassi stuff. How could he stay? Exactly.

He was busy. That's great. I remember when Drake was just Aubrey Graham and I'd spot him at a Raptors, and I'd be like, hey, that's the guy from Degrassi. Like, who knew? Who knew? Yeah, well, Lorne Michaels also graduated from Forrest Hill Collegiate. But you, I guess the law dictates

you have to take French until grade six. I mean, sorry, grade nine, I mean. Yeah, I took it into high school. I remember Mr. Sadowski, my French teacher, saying, how do you say park in French? Someone said parquet, and I said butter, and he booted me out. That's right. I do remember getting kicked out of a lot of French classes.

That's great. The newest sponsor here to help keep this passion project going so you can be entertained in the car, Ken, is Camp Tournesol. So for a few months, while you make arrangements for your children aged 4 to 14, while you make plans for their summer, consider Camp Tournesol. It's the largest French camp in Ontario. If your child's francophone or in French immersion like my kids or if they have no French experience like Ken, there's still a day camp or an overnight experience for them.

Campers in all of their programs enjoy weeks jam-packed with activities designed to support and enrich french learning in ontario beyond the school walls so i've been having this chat there's a common theme that a lot of us anglos raised in the gta uh we grow up we don't really like french they jam this french class into our school and the teacher usually hates teaching it. When we grow up, like, we hate French. I hated French. If I had gone to one of these French camps, it might have been a whole different story. And there's a lot of options here. So if you got a kid age four to 12, go to campt.ca because you're going to struggle to spell turn a soul like I do. So go to campt.ca and there's a promo code you can use. The promo code is Mike, M-I-K-E

and you get 20 bucks off your first order and your kid will learn to love and appreciate French and that will lead to a wonderful, a wonderful life. Do you know, well, I don't know if they jam French down our throats,

they jammed Latin down our throats in high school. But it was optional. I don't know. Because I skipped that. I mean, yes, a lot of kids were going to Latin, but it was definitely at my high school, it was definitely optional because I just, I steered away from it. Maybe it was easier and that's why some were taking it. I'm not

sure, but you'd probably have more use for French than you would for Latin, even though they say Latin helps you understand the English language better. It gives you like a base, but I mean, a lot of smart people have done fine without it. So, you know. All right. I'm with you.

Hockey. So, of course, your life is hockey, but you were a hockey official, right? When you were a young, young man. Yeah. I just loved being around the rink. So at Forest Hill Hockey, I would referee, I guess when I was 12, 13 years old, referee the

young kids and pick up a few bucks. Made some good coin and then worked for the MTHL, which is now the GTHL. Right. So I'd be refereeing four to five nights a week and on weekends, tournaments, always around the rink. Made some good money and kept skating. Just loved doing it.

Yeah, good exercise. You make some coin. That sounds like the ideal job for a team. It helped buy me my first car. I mean, my dad helped, but I had a lot of money and some of those years, working enough in cash, I'd be making $3,000 to $4,000. I'd be working a lot, and this is

the mid to late 70s. And even before then, you'd pick up $20 and work from 6 in the morning until 10 or something doing house league. But I loved it and met a lot of great people along the way. Did you ever consider a career as a ref? I didn't think I was tall enough, nor would I be.

And, you know, when I played high school at Forest Hill, I was playing for Mike Keenan. That was my next thing. The fun fact, Iron Mike was your coach in high school. He was. We used to sit in his office in the phys ed department. He knew I wanted to get in broadcasting. He wanted to coach in the National Hockey League.

And he'd say, Daniels, what jobs are open? And when Mike coached, he always said, Daniels, take your line. So whenever he calls me now, Daniels, take your line. Although I haven't spoken to him a lot lately. And he was over in Russia and then over in China. And so still working. But he hired me when he was at the University of Toronto, led them to a national championship.

I was doing the PA for him there, the public address at Varsity Stadium, Varsity Arena. When he was at Forest Hill coaching our high school team, he was also coaching Oshawa Junior B Legionnaires to a championship, and also coaching the Whitby, coach and player of the Whitby Senior A Warriors, I believe. Eddie Schach played a bit. Tom Shotgun Simpson, Toronto's unofficial

first 50 goal scorer with the Toros. He was playing there. I worked during the summer. Take that, Rick Vive. Take that, exactly. And I was working at Mike's hockey school, Blades Hockey School in Pickering during the summertime.

So we go back a long way. Those were, those high school days, we all did, all the teammates on that school team, we had a lot of fun. But was he, was he a, he's got a reputation as a rather tough coach, but he's with high school kids. You got a kinder, gentler Keenan? He was great. He was great. I mean, I know his reputation, the pros, and we talk about it and I'd wonder how could he be like that.

But that's, you know, he was very well educated and wrote a lengthy thesis when he got applied for the job with the Philadelphia Flyers. Scotty Bowman had hired him to work in Rochester for the American League team there. And a lot of what Mike has, I guess, is from Scotty, the old school that you, although Scotty adapted in the later years, I think Mike did too, that you don't necessarily have to be telling the players your thoughts all the time. It's different today, but back then that's what they did. So Mike wasn't well-liked necessarily at the pro level, but in high school, we loved playing for him. We'd go out and watch him play in Whitby and coach. And one night our car broke down and he drove us back home. And you can ask any of the guys on the team. We love playing for Mike. He was just a good guy.

And don't forget, when we're 16, 17, 18, he's like in his mid-20s, late 20s. Oh, yeah. So, you know, even now, I don't know if he's, how old he is, late 60s. He had a mustache too back then, right? He did. I'm going to keep track.

You know why I'm keeping track? He still does. He still has a mustache. My mustache looks lousy when I grow it. Like, I shave today, so there's no sign of the mustache. But when I do, even if it's just neglect and I grow facial hair, it just looks bad. It's just saying, Mike, get me off your lip.

You can't do this. Yes. So I get jealous. I'm envious of guys like you and Gino Retta and Mike Keenan who can grow these great mustaches. Looking back, though, Mike, at those pictures of me with a mustache, I only think what was I thinking? I

don't know. It's funny. I don't know. We started the podcast talking about Humble and Fred, and Fred used to rock the stache in the 80s too, in the early 90s. Okay, we talked about Brian Williams, so let's talk about Brian a bit here. And I was thinking, should I do my Brian Williams? Brian Williams, first of all, my experience with Brian was so fantastic because we had several phone

conversations prior to his visit. And he was just so nurturing and positive and just like, hey, Michael, I'm going to call you Tuesday at 2 p.m. And then that phone rang at 2 p.m. Tuesday and the phone, is it Brian? I go, is this real life? Like Brian's calling me. Hey, Brian, Michael, I'm just following up. It was fantastic. It's fantastic. So tell me about how Brian influenced you, inspired you, and then when it's time, I got the letter here.

I'm going to read it. Well, you can go with the letter because I watched Brian on TV, and a friend of mine who's still to this day one of my best friends, Sharon Appleby and her brother-in-law is Jeff Ansell. Do you remember the name Jeff Ansell from Chum FM? No. He would do and worked at City TV after Chum FM for a long

time, investigative reporter and won many awards for his investigative journalism. Before this is because I know Lorne Honigman, he was there but this is prior to that. I went to summer camp with Lorne Honigman, too. Small world, eh? Yeah. Jeff Ansell, well, it would have been probably mid-

70s on Chum FM and then City TV. I'm a Peter Silverman man. Okay, well, Peter would have been there, I think, when Jeff was there. But through Sharon, I got a hold of Jeff and I would go down and watch Jeff at Chum FM do the report on Chum FM

and he'd do that voice whenever he signed off I'm Jeff Ansell and now a Bruce Springsteen super session on Chum FM you know one of those so we used to joke with Jeff when he'd go home to his wife Ann he'd say Annie pass the salt it was one of those deep perfect

FM voices. Sounds good, man. But I used to go down and watch Jeff and then Jeff would give me numbers of different people to call. So I was never afraid to call someone. And then when I was 17, I had reached out through a letter to Brian Williams. And then you have the letter, Brian. And Brian didn't know me, but I, you see, this is what I tell kids today, which is why I try to help kids when they call me.

The worst thing people, the worst thing someone could do is say no. But if you're not pestering someone and you're asking for advice and you really have a passion, do it. And this is what Brian wrote back to me. Dear Kenny, thank you for your letter of September 23rd. I'm sorry for taking so long to answer, but I've been swamped. Please give me a call at about 4 p.m. any weekday after January 1st. We'll get together and talk about careers in journalism. All the best for the holidays, Brian Williams. I love this because when I announced Brian's coming on, I got all these letters from people in the media and stuff that

said they had similar experiences to this. Like my first shift on the radio at Fan 590, I received a phone call from Brian to tell me how great I sounded, like all this really inspiring, positive stuff. Yeah. And he took me in, met his executive producer when I was down there and just watched him do the sports a number of times. And then two months later, I'd call him and Brian would say, nothing going now. Give me a call next month. And he was probably at some point tired of me calling him, but you'd never know that. I thought in my own head, I mean, what was he going to do for me, right? I'm 17. But he gave me the advice to go to university, get a degree.

And at the time I was contemplating Ryerson, but I went to York University and he said, at least you'll show people you have a Bachelor of Arts, you have something. And then with your passion, keep applying for jobs. And that's basically how it worked. And that's good advice. Yeah, I thought so. And the strange thing was, years later, I get the job, which you'll get into, I'm sure, but I

get the job at CBC, and I've been there for, well, maybe a year or so. And Bill Lawrence, you remember Bill Lawrence in Tiny Talent Time and the weather at CBC. Probably the nicest man you'd ever meet in your life. Never a bad word to say about anyone, always pleasant. And I'm in the office and the phone rings and I answer the phone, talk to this kid and I hang up the phone. And Bill Lawrence turns to me and I told the kid, you know, give me a call, whatever.

And Bill turns to me and says, you know, Brian used to sit in that very chair you're sitting in and kids used to call Brian all the time and he'd say, give me a call next month. And he was always trying to help him just like you did. And I said, Bill, I was one of those kids who was pestering Brian once in a while. Paying it forward. Yeah, pay it forward. Just, I love those stories I love.

There's a lot of, you know, you get the negative stories, but give me a good Brian Williams inspiring a young Ken Daniel story any day of the week. I love it. And even to this day, and when he's in Detroit, although it was rare and a few years ago, he'd be there and he'd call me when he's in town. And we've obviously lost touch over the years, but even a year after I got hired by CBC Local, when he left to go to network full time, and then he couldn't do a sports weekend. And it was my first sports weekend gig, filling in on Formula One racing for Brian. And sure enough, a handwritten letter shows up.

You'll be great. Just do what you do from Brian. And as nervous as I was, it really helped settle me down. So he's always been very encouraging. That's great. And soon we'll get to his good friend, Dave Hodge, soon. But it's funny because when I had a conversation with Brian about kick, when I started this kicking out the jam themed episodes and I was like, Oh,

I would love to have Brian in here to kick up the jams. So I had, you know, I was writing him an email and we were talking, he goes, you know, Mike, I'm not really a music guy.

Like I'm not even, but my, my friend Dave Hodge would be amazing at that, which, and he's like, you should talk to Dave Hodge about this. I think he'd be all over it. Of course,

Dave was high on my list of people I wanted to kick out the jams. And Dave was like super into it. And we'll get to that. And we'll call it the Dave Hodge portion of this episode 318. But I love that story about Brian Williams. Yeah. I'm going to segue over to my Patreon

account. How's that? Elegant segue there. Nicely done. 318 episodes in, I'm still figuring these things out but uh anybody listening who wants to help contribute to this podcast patreon.com slash toronto mike help become a patron if you can't remember that because you're biking or driving right now if you go to torontomike.com i have big orange buttons all over the place become a patron a dollar a month five dollars a. Give what you wish and help keep this going.

Ken, there's a gift for you, a couple of gifts for you, but we'll start with the six-pack of beer in front of you. That's yours. And you know who's going to love this tonight when I get back to the hotel here? I'm traveling with Trevor Thompson, who used to work with Sportsnet here. And my analyst on this trip,

because Mickey didn't make the trip, is Darren Elliott, and they are huge beer drinkers. So they're going to love this tonight in the hotel. Well, let them know it's courtesy of Great Lakes Beer, local craft brewery, fiercely independent, and just the finest people you're ever going to meet. The owner there kicked out the jams, Peter Bullitt,

which is a cool guy. At the Santa Claus Parade on Lakeshore in this neck of the woods, there's a float. I want to call it a float. It's not really a float. It's actually a Great Lakes beer truck that Peter drives along the route, and they throw out candy canes and stuff for the kids. Is there a bathroom on it?

Probably. I think the joke was they were going to start handing out samples of the beer, but there's some law that violates it. I would think so. Give this to your daddy. Yeah,'s some law that violates it. I would think so. I would think so. Give this to your daddy. Yeah, right.

And don't open it. Promise me you're not going to open it. Give it to daddy or mommy. So enjoy the Great Lakes beer. I will. There's a pint glass for you that you should pour, or give it to your analyst there

to pour the beer into. But take it home with you because it's with you. Is there one? You know what? Here. Talk for 10 seconds here. While you get up and get something?

Well, I'm already drinking the water out of this glass. I hope it was for me. Oh, there's the glass. Good. Look at you. Nice. First time I've ever forgot to have that out. Okay.

Sorry, Brian. So that pint glass is courtesy of Brian Gerstein, and Brian's a sales representative with PSR Brokerage, and he's recorded a special message for you. Let's hear from Brian. Propertyinthe6.com Hi, Ken. Brian Gerstein here, sales representative with PSR Brokerage

and proud sponsor of Toronto Mike. Hope you enjoy my pint glass to use with your GLB. I also have a limited supply left over exclusively for Toronto Mike's listeners. In order to get one, just give me a call at 416-873-0292 to meet and discuss any real estate needs you have as spring has sprung and now is the best time to list and buy,

being the busiest market of the year. Ken, I'm friends with Howard Berger, who was a previous guest on this podcast, and even took him to a Leafs game a few years ago when they sucked. It was a blast listening to Howard vent, as only Howard can, as the Penguins destroyed them. Times sure have changed since then. Now you, single-handedly started Howard's sports career by setting up a meeting for him with Alan Davis, and the rest was history for the then 29-year-old sports fanatic Berger

who had no experience on air at the time. What did you see in Howard to risk your own reputation to recommend him? And is this even possible today with so many institutions like our own Ryerson and College of Sports Media churning out so many candidates? That's a good question. What did I see in Howard? He talked my ear off. I figured I'd let him talk somebody else's ear off. But you know what? Again, he had a passion and he was bright and he could write and you can teach people to talk. I, if you, you know, and going back to what I said about Jeff Ansell, when I used to look at his news reports and a lot of it was in point form, very concise. And I tell people now, if you, when you're interviewing someone, if you can't ask a question in eight seconds, when you're in a tighter format, don't ask it.

I'm not saying this format, so don't go there. But if you can't ask a question in eight seconds, you're in a tighter format don't ask it i'm not saying this format so don't go there but if you can't ask a question in eight seconds then don't ask it and that's how we're taught in television and if you can do it concisely and and even learning from jeff ansell that's how i learned when i was in radio in the early 80s if you've got something that's 30 seconds can i do it in 15 when i go in and talk to a hockey player now if i'm going to use a story on air he'll be talking for maybe a minute minute and a a half, we're just shooting the breeze. But as he's talking to me, I'm rolling in my head, how can I recite this story on air in 15 seconds or less? And then I'll go home during the day, do my notes, and try to get it in point form in 15 seconds. So I always knew as much as Howard, the gift of the gab, I knew he'd been great. And he's good at reporting, good writer. I knew he could do it. It's funny you joke there that Howard can be verbose because he has the record

for the longest episode of Toronto Mic'd. I think we hit two and a half hours, I think. Wow. He had a lot to say. That is long. Also, since you do listen to Toronto Mic'd, have you ever heard the Steve, which Steve, Steve Simmons has been on a couple of times.

I've heard Steve on here, sure. He, he tells a story about how he got Howard Berger fired in Calgary. Oh, right. He didn't mean to though. No,

he didn't want it. The memo wasn't supposed to go somewhere. Well, he, he protocol was the copy that your boss on the memo that you were sending to your employee. And the boss said, we got to fire him or something.

Anyway, so Steve inadvertently got. He didn't want him fired, Steve, but yeah. Right. So if anyone wants to hear that story, that first Simmons episode where he talks

about the hot dog story and everything is pretty epic. Oh, the Kessel hot dog? Right, the Kessel story. It's pretty epic. And I've known Steve for a long time too, and Howard. And that's, you know, the people that you meet here and when I go back to do a Red Wing game at the ACC, if you run into Steve Simmons and Lance

Hornby and all the guys, and Paul Hendricks and Bonesy, it's wonderful to come back. Mark Askin, who was my first producer with Hockey Night and still doing games. It's always nice. Even though Detroit now is home for me, Toronto's still a very

close second home for me. As listeners know, it's such a small world, this Canadian media landscape. Everyone's connected. It's like, forget six degrees of separation. We play two degrees of separation. Everyone's two degrees of separation from Ken Daniels. So let's pick it up. You graduate

from York University and you begin your radio career in Oshawa. Yeah, C-K-A-R-C-K-Q-T-F-M, music on the quiet side. You played a lot of Hall & Oates there? No, they weren't. No, that wasn't quiet enough. No, that wasn't quiet enough.

And actually, and CKR at the time had the Montreal Expos rights on that Black Monday, and we were so upset at the radio station because there went all the advertising dollars as the Expos were out. So, you know, that was my introduction to that. And Mike Inglis was doing the sports in the morning then and was doing Oshawa Generals hockey with Mike Langlois,

was doing the color. And Mike Inglis is now the radio voice of the Miami Heat. Right. Right. So we'd worked together in the sports office. He was a day one-er at the fan. I think he's a day one-er. He could have been.

He was morning there. I wasn't a day one-er. I had been at CJCL, obviously, for years left and then came back to the fan actually, uh, to take over morning sports for, for Joe Bowen at the time. So, okay. So let's, let's pick it up there then. So talk, so what was, so you, you originally help me out here cause you're at CJCL. Was it CJCL or was it just 1430 with a different call? It was 1430. I was in Oshawa for about 10 months, got the job, applied to Larry Silver, was the news director at Metro 1430, and that was before the music of your grandmother's life. Yes, which we all know from falling asleep to Tom and Jerry

and then waking up to... Benny Goodman. You're having my baby. Something like that. And it was Metro 1430 was all news. And Jim Brady, I think, was there. And I can't remember. I'm going to miss on some of the names now.

But Arlene Bynum, it was a lot of talk at the time. Pat Bowman, maybe. Robert Holliday was a big news guy in Toronto, was the, I think, the station manager. And so I got hired to do overnights by Larry Silver. And what Larry told me was, Larry said, all I can offer you is overnights and a ride on the TTC. And I said, I'll take it because I've been in Oshawa and I'd done the political beat for Oshawa, Durham area and Pickering. I was doing a lot, not so much sports.

I was doing news and city hall reporting. And when I did overnights for about a year, that was exhausting. In there at 9 at night, you're leaving at 8 o'clock in the morning and writing police reports for the morning guys. Grant Forsyth was in there in the morning, named probably before your time, but that's how I got to know Scott Metcalf and Rich Follis and Donna DeRoche and all the folks who were there at the time. It was a great place to work, and you could make mistakes overnight, right? Because there weren't that many people listening.

Although it was live then. It wasn't so much syndicated. Like to the earlier question, kids today in school, and how do you learn the biz? I say that's a great way to go, but if you can start your own podcast or internship anywhere, get your foot in the door and show your passion. This seems to be a common thread in these Toronto Mic'd episodes, is that back in the day, you could go to a small market or you could go to do overnights and you could kind of suck and get better.

You know what I mean? It's a chance to hone your craft. Yeah. That's evaporated. The smaller markets, there's less local programming there and overnights are often syndicated programming from the States or whatnot. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, even when you applied for jobs in the early 80s, before I got to Oshawa

and through Jeff Ansell, I got different numbers. And John Hinnan at CFTR, who gave me the number of Rayfield White in Orillia, at CFOR in Orillia. And then I got the number from him of someone named Barry Kentner up in Penetanguishene. I drove to Penetanguishene. Now, remember, I'm just out of York University, so 21, whatever you are at the time when you graduate, late 70s. And I drive up to Penetanguishene. And to your point of no experience, I interview with Barry Kentner. I think he had a funeral announcement for me to read because it was small town news.

And I'm reading it. And I don't know what I'm doing in radio. I mean, I could write and stuff, but I'd never done radio. I've done a cable TV show on Willowdown's Cable when I was in my teens. I had an MTHL weekly show, which only ran for a few episodes. So I had a little bit, used to read into

a tape recorder to try to learn. I think my mother would hear me talking to myself when I was in the bathroom. Those were the podcasts back then. That's right. The closest I had to a podcast then was speaking to yourself in the bathroom and my mom would walk by and she'd be the only one then. That's right. The closest I had to a podcast then was speaking to yourself in the bathroom and my mom would walk by and she'd be the only one listening. But when I went up to Barry Kentner and I read the funeral announcement

in Penetanguishene and then I finished and I probably, I wasn't very good. And he said to me, boy, if I hire you, I don't think I can, you're really green. And I'm thinking to myself, you're offering me $500 a month. Right. What do you want?

Right. So I didn't get the job there, but I wind up being hired after Oshawa a year and a half later or so in Toronto and with the telemedia network. And about six months there after that, Barry Kentner was fired and he was up at Penitentiary. So I'm working with the company and now he's gone. But you know, you get what you pay for there. And if you're a small town, you're going to make mistakes and you need news directors, et cetera, to put up with mistakes, and that's what happens. Today they have podcasts because that seems to be the only place you can... It's a great training ground, though.

I mean, for anybody who wants to get in the business and like what you did and this, you know, a passion for you and meeting people, and if kids are younger and they want... I think this is the way to go, is podcasting to learn. Right, well, you're preaching to the converted here.

Yeah, exactly. We'll be friends for life after this. For sure. This will bond us forever. There you go. Every time the Red Wings come to Toronto to play the Leafs, you're going to have a message.

Can I bring my 16, could you get two tickets for me and my 16-year-old? Well, if you've got a credit card, I'll get you tickets, but you can certainly come up to the booth and visit. That's not a problem.

Anytime. When you were at, which incarnation of your visits to 1430, did you work with John Oakley? Oh, that was overnights. John was doing, he's now days at 640. He's afternoon drive home on 640. Right. So I do keep up with that. And I knew when John was on mornings there.

John and I did overnights together. And that was a lot of fun. That was when Franz was in the, you know was on mornings there. John and I did overnights together and that was a lot of fun. That was when Franz was on College Street and we'd go out in the middle of the night and you risked your life going out in the laneway to try and grab a coffee or a donut or whatever it was. Oh, you mean the good old days. The good old days.

Yeah, right. So John and I did overnights together and that, as I talk about in the book, with Leave It to Beaver and Jerry Mathers and Tony Dow. And they did not like one another. And he got each one on the phone, unbeknownst to the other one they were on.

And then one hung up on him. I mean, moments like that. And John was very creative. So I'd just be in the newsroom and laugh out loud. I'm getting ready for news reports. And that was my main focus then, was try to do the news and not screw up. And then John would be having his own laughs on the air.

And it was a lot of fun. It was good ways to spend nights. Once you were there, you hated sleeping all day. But once you got in, it was the passion and the radio and just being in that newsroom. I loved it. Loved every day. Loved every night. I'm going to ask you about somebody you worked with at 1430 and maybe also the Fan 590.

I suppose he moved with you guys there, but Dan Shulman. So tell me about, because today everybody's like, Oh, you know, Dan is here and there's an opening on the, the Blue Jays radio has an opening.

At least they haven't announced who's got the gig and everybody's got these like a pipe dream. So we can put in Dan who might be the finest now that today he might be the, the finest active play byplay guy working in baseball. What was it like working with Dan and your friendship with Dan? Well, Dan had started, he was an actuary, right? Was, I think, wanted or was going to be an actuary, you know, what's that, insurance and insurance claims and whatever. Something boring. Something with numbers that, you know, far beyond me.

But then was working up in radio in Barrie, and his first audition tape was awful. I have heard it, but just so bright. I need a copy of that. I can't. No, you can't have that. Anonymously, if it just appeared somewhere. Yeah, but Dan and his then wife,

Sarah, and my wife became very good friends, as were Dan and I, and I lived right next door to the radio station. So Dan would do evenings, and my apartment was right next door on the seventh floor. The newsroom to see JCL was on the seventh floor on Hawley Street, right next door. I'd go out on my balcony barbecuing. Dan would be in the newsroom waving to me, and the phone would ring, what's for dinner? So he'd come over. I remember when the Blue Jays won the World Series in 92. He was there watching the game, and then would go back to work for Jay's talk.

So Dan, you could tell after his first few times on air, was just so comfortable and so good. And I believe you're right, is the best right now, but I don't know if he wanted to take on more and marry it again. And I think he cut back and leaving ESPN Sunday Night Baseball because he doesn't necessarily need it. Can do lots of other stuff

and still with them and can do baseball with the Jays where he wants and just a tremendous, tremendous talent. Yeah, Nelson Millman was in here. I think even Howard Berger. I get lots of Dan Schulman stories. It's kind of interesting that he starts actuary in Barrie and comes to CJCL and then what he's become,

it's just one of those, like, look at this. Look at this success story. Well, they were, you know, Nelson, Alan Davis, they were able, I shouldn't say fine talent, because they at least would let you make mistakes, let you grow, guide you, not control you, and knew where, and again, I go back to that word passion, and it's the P's, and the perseverance, persistence, you know, just knew those who had the ability to work, wanted to work, and let them do their own thing and let them grow and would give them guidance along the way. And that, to me, they were the perfect bosses.

And you're on that list, by the way, you're on the list of success stories. So congrats to you. But, you know, you mentioned a lot came out of there. A lot came out of there. Mike Inglis, you mentioned. So there's guys like that and you. But even just Elliot Friedman, who is just kind of like, I don't know if he started as an intern or whatever.

I'll tell you Elliot Friedman. Elliot, who used to speak very slowly, as he would tell you, when he started there and doing the Raptors reports, and I would be doing the morning sports, and in the old days you'd play those cartridges, and Elliot would leave a rap, let's say, you know, a minute rap on the Raptors on the game night. And I'd say the Raptors beat so-and-so tonight over the Celtics at Skydome tonight.

And with more, here's Elliott Friedman. And I maybe had in those days, you had a long time for sports. You had five, maybe seven minutes right at the top of the hour. And then they'd have the updates at 20 past, which were shorter. So I'd get into the morning, I'd write them, and maybe I'd do my own version at 6 o'clock, which would become 8, and I'd use Elliot's report at 7 and 9. And then when we were cutting back a little bit, I'd say, boy, Elliot,

those are really long. And I told Elliot, don't leave them so long. If you're going to put a clip in there, I can't go a minute 15 on the Raptors. It's just too long. So he might look at the card and go, oh, good, he's getting them short at 54 seconds. Oh, great, 52 seconds. And I'd be in there listening to it, and I'm going, this isn't 52 seconds. This isn't 58 seconds. Then I time it. It'd be like a minute, 15 minute, 20. He was lying on the cart. He wrote it down. He lied to me

just so I'd run the damn thing. But he, and again, there's, there's another guy and it just took him some time to get into a rhythm, but a guy who knew how to ask questions and was persistent and, again, wanted to work in the business and wanted to work at his craft, and he's terrific now. You deserve credit for Elliott Freeman's career. Work with me here. Okay. You helped get Howard Berger to the CJCL.

I believe, because Elliott's been on the show and he told me this story, his father was friends with Howard Berger's father. So Elliot Friedman got a favor, essentially, through that channel, that Howard Berger helped him get the interview or whatever. So if Howard Berger, how do I put this in biblical terms?

Howard Berger begat Elliot Friedman, you begat Howard Berger begat Elliott Friedman. You begat Howard Berger. Therefore, you are responsible for Elliott Friedman's career. Well, if that's the case, then I'll take credit for that because he's damn good at what he does. There you go. Just take the credit. That's okay. We all help one another in this business, and that was the great thing.

There were no jealousies. You wanted others to succeed. And even to this day, and I speak to so many kids who want to get into this business, and they'll send me tapes of their work to critique them. I find it hard to do that. I really do. Because over time, you're going to find your voice. You just do.

For sure. When I got the job in Detroit, I had never listened to my first Leafs game on the radio from 1990, Boston, Toronto. I'd never listened to that game until I got the job in Detroit. Now, when I listened to it, I go, well, not as bad as I thought. But at the time, you know, this is bad. This is bad, you know. But it wasn't as bad as I thought.

But it just takes time and people will find their way. Jay Reeves on Twitter had a question for you. And it fits in nicely to this uh cjcl portion of the podcast can you ask him about bob his perspective on the fan 590s bob mccowan could be interesting let's find out jay reeves if it's interesting or not i'll be the judge of that uh i don't know anything you can share about the legendary Bob McCowan? Well, Bob and I would have our set twos once in a while. And Bob, you know, when you're in doing morning sports, and then Bob did mornings for a while at the fan with Barb DiGiulio. I don't know if Bob really loved getting up at that hour,

and he could be a little testy at that hour some mornings. But to me, Bob is the best interviewer in the business. And even when he doesn't know about something, he'll get caught once in a while. But he can bullshit better than anybody. He just can. And he knows how to ask a question. And the key to interviewing someone is actually listening to their answers. And I'll say Bob does that 99% of the time. Again, sometimes you can be distracted or someone's talking to you at the time and you miss something. But Bob will follow up on questions.

If somebody makes a statement, Bob will follow up on it. And Bob will turn things around even though when he doesn't believe it. He just knows because it's entertainment, right? He knows he's got hours to fill and wants to get somebody else's opinion. And again, that's bullshitting in a way, but bullshitting for good entertainment, I guess. And he's been public about the fact that he wears a mask when he's on the air. Yeah.

Right? So when you deal, when you've dealt with Bob McCowan, when he's not being recorded or he's not live, I was going to say that there's the Bob, the real Bob, and then there's this Bob wearing the mask who's the curmudgeonly cranky Bob that goes on the air. Different persona. He can be that way, but to

talk to him, no. Very nice. I never, you know, again, I'll chalk up to mornings as being testy because it's mornings, but I spent some time at Bob's house or just visiting years ago. Always, always very nice. I know the one debate we had on air that he called me out on was,

and this would have been, I don't know, early 90s, I guess, because I would say if the guy had knocked in a couple of runs in the game, I used the singular and went with two RBI instead of two RBIs because it was runs batted in. But you're right. Technically, you're right. Well, not to Bob back then. He fought me on that for the longest time. We must have gone 20 minutes on the radio

with that debate about RBI as opposed to RBIs. Do people today, I don't really follow baseball, being in the hockey world as much as I used to. I think people will typically say RBIs, actually, but it is technically, I'm an English major, and it's kind of like mother-in-law, right? Because there's more than one mother-in-law there. Well, they're mothers-in-law.

They're not mother-in-laws. And people will say passerbys, and it's passersby. Right. Right? So you and I are the last two respecting this English language. Hear that, Bob? I wasn't necessarily wrong. That's great.

Now, so you mentioned you called that game in 1990 that you listened to. See, I think I thought you might have started some play-by-play in 88. So did you do any Leaf games in 88? Oh, Seoul, Korea. Yes, Korea in 88. Okay, so no Leaf games in 88. No.

Okay. No, I had not done any hockey then. I had come back from Seoul, unless it was play-by-play. Yeah, it would have been roughly 1990 or late 89 when my first Leaf game. At any rate, I'd come back from Seoul in 88 and then I had had some stuff stolen and a lot of my memorabilia from Seoul, I got robbed in the

apartment. I know it was the superintendent. I know it was. I'd gone out, he saw me and that's the worst that you can't prove it, right? Right. So I wanted to get out of that and I bought a house months later and I was closing on that

house. And the day I was to move the day before, Alan Davis called me and said, can you do the leaf game? And the only play by play I'd ever done was in Seoul. And the best tip I ever got from Alan Davis, and I did many different sports in Seoul, and

one of them was canoeing and kayaking. So if it's your 5,000 meters or wherever it was, and I'd start up so high and excited that I had nowhere to go. Right. And when I came back, Alan explained that to me. And you need, you have to hit a ceiling. You can't start there. You need the inflection.

You need somewhere to go. You need that space from floor to ceiling. That's great advice. You gotta, yeah, you need somewhere to go. Great advice that space. That's great advice. You need somewhere to go. Great advice. And I was nervous in Seoul. It was my first play-by-play experience. I'd been doing TV since 85. I'd been in radio since roughly around 1980. But still, you're on the big stage, 1988 Olympics. I'd done many sports in Seoul, but that was one. Alan gave me that tip. And then a year later or so, he offers me the job to do Leafs radio. And I had never done play-by-play before. And I said, geez, Alan, I'm moving tomorrow. And he said, get somebody else to move the Ottomans. I'm offering you Toronto Maple Leafs hockey.

Are you serious? Are you kidding me? At the time, I thought, okay, play-by-play. But I really wanted to host Hockey Night in Canada. That was my main objective. And I did ultimately do that within the same year. But I said, okay. And I got friends and family to do my move for me. And I wound up doing the Boston-Toronto game. Play-by-play was my first time. I'd never worked junior's no chance it was actually like the last game of the eighties at Maple Leaf Gardens. Only because I've been to, you know, a bunch of Leaf games in my life. And to date, my favorite Leaf game I've ever attended

was the last game of the eighties. It was like, I don't know, December 30th, 1989 or something like that. And the Bruins were in town and they jump out to the six to one lead and halfway through the game, I'm up in the grays with my buddies and we're like, you know, the Leafs sucked back then, as you might remember, but it was like, oh, another awful shit show. Pardon my French. And the Leafs come back and they end up winning in overtime.

I think Wendell Clark gets an overtime goal. You didn't call that game, for the record. No, so that's the opposite. So Boston had the lead and blew it. Okay. Yeah, Boston was up 6-1. Unlike Toronto having a 4-1 lead. It's the opposite. So Boston had the lead and blew it. Okay. Yeah, Boston was up 6-1. Unlike Toronto having a 4-1 lead. Yeah, it was the opposite. But the stakes were lower, you see.

No, it wasn't that game. As a matter of fact, the game that I called, Boston won in overtime. Okay. And Andy Brickley got an assist on that goal, who's now working Boston Bruins, and he's an analyst. That game went to OT. I want to say it was January. It's in the book, but I don't remember. But I think it was January of 1990.

Okay, so like a month after. My favorite game I've ever attended live. Any favorite Leaf game? Stop bringing up that 4-1 Game 7, because I'm still... Although, as I tell myself, if we win that game, I don't think we torch the earth

and do the Shanna plan. I feel like if we did win that game seven against Boston and advanced to the second round, maybe they don't blow it up. And then maybe we don't have what we have now, which is true hope. So maybe the best thing you could have an argument, the best thing that happened to the Toronto Maple Leafs was blowing

that four to one lead with 10 minutes left. Whatever makes you happy to look at it that way. You know, you say things happen for a reason. I don't know what 50 years between Stanley Cups is happening for a reason, but I was, that night at TD Garden, I was in Toronto watching at my sister's house. I was in Toronto and when Boston made it,

was it 10 minutes left, made it four to two? Yeah, it was 10 minutes left. I was with my sister and we're in her living room watching the game, and I said, Boston gets the next one. They're winning this game. I just felt it coming. I didn't want it to happen. Well, you didn't have room to expect the Leafs to collapse at that point.

Yeah, but if Detroit's not playing, when Detroit's playing Toronto, I want nothing but win for the Red Wings. If the Red Wings are not playing, and they're out now, second consecutive year, I'm certainly rooting for the Leafs to go on. It would be wonderful. My family's still here. I still have season tickets that my brother has taken over because I had them in my name when I was doing games. So, you know, I'd love the Leafs to have success. But if you want to think that that's the reason, okay.

I remember my wife, who was my girlfriend at the time, I remember I told her, I said, how often do you pull the goalie and score two goals? How often do you see that? Not very often. Not often. You watch a lot of hockey and you won't see if the goalie pulled them coming back from a 4-2 deficit. Anyway, let's not talk. Poor Reimer. Yeah, that's in the past. You can move on now.

It's better days now. I want to ask you about, so we talked about fan guys who went on to be bigger and better. And one guy who was working with Strombo at the fan is Jeff Merrick, who has a great gig now with Rogers Sportsnet. And Jeff Merrick is the guy who was working at Park Lawn Cemetery when you buried people in 1990, right? Harold. So I biked over to Park Lawn and texted Jeff and I said, where do I find Harold Ballard's grave? And he was nice enough to help me find it, because it's on the ground. It's not up,

so it's hard to find it, actually. But you're going to ask me, why did you want to see it? I just wanted to see Harold Ballard's grave. Can you tell me about dealing with our pal Hal, Harold Ballard, when he was speaking of cranky curmudgeon? Oh, that he was. But we had some fun days talking with Harold. I remember sitting at North York Centennial with a bunch of reporters up there with Harold one day, and we're talking about scouting. And Mike Keenan wasn't yet. I don't believe in the National Hockey, or maybe he was. But I remember asking Harold about Mike, and he said, I don't want any cream puff college coach for me.

So then I said something to the effect of, Harold, what about your scouting department? And he said, scouting department? I've got all the scouts I need. Who has more scouts than us? And I said, well, Calgary, Edmonton. And he said, yeah, what have they done? I said, well, they both won Stanley Cups. Yeah, they can have their Stanley Cups.

I got all the scouts I want. So that was typically Harold. And then, you know, all the crap that he got into with not allowing, not wanting women reporters into the dressing room and the crude things that Harold would say. And one of my first encounters, which I won't go into here,

I'll try to keep that clean. One of the, my first encounter with Harold would have been my early days at CJCL and working the overnights. And I had come in that first year and it was no, actually I wouldn't have been working overnights anymore because it would have been 1983. I want to say the canceling of the Moscow circus when they shot down KAL 007, the Korean airliner. And I called over to Maple Leaf Gardens to see if I could find Harold Ballard, called from CJCL. We were just down the street there from the gardens where CJCL was located.

And I called the gardens and this gentleman answers, hello? And I said, hi, it's Ken Daniels from CJCL. I'm looking for Harold Ballard. This is him. So I said, hi, it's Ken Daniels from CJCL. I'm looking for Harold Ballard. This is him. So I said, what do you want? So surprised you to get Harold Ballard on the phone. I can't believe it. It must have been 6.30 or 7 o'clock at night.

And I told him what I wanted, an interview with him about the, because he canceled the Moscow Circus at the Gardens. Well, come on over then. And I said, okay. And I grabbed my tape. I said, where do I find you? He said, in my And I grabbed my tape. I said, where do I find you? He said, in my apartment. I said, and that is, how do I get there?

He goes, it's above the hot stove lounge. They'll show you. And I went and got Harold Ballard in his apartment. And my only regret today is that there weren't cell phones back then, so I could have snapped a photo of him in basically his shorts and this shirt and just a mess. It was hard to get pictures back then. But you know, just because for some reason, John Gallagher had cameras all over the place.

He has a photo of himself with everyone he encountered throughout the 80s. He just always had a disposable camera at his disposal, no pun intended. So it was like he's the only guy I know who's got all these photos before the cell phone era. And I bet he could take some selfies too. Gallagher worked with John for a little bit in his time when he was doing some sports at the fan. At the time, funny guy. He was at City when I was at CBC. He's got a book too, you know.

I know. His book was a little more salacious than yours. I would think so. Has he been sued yet? I keep asking him every day for an update on that one. Before we bring you to CBC Sports, where I have some questions, I want to tell everybody about PayTM.

If you go to paytm.ca, you can download this app where you pay all of your bills. I use it. I've been using it for months now, and I love it because all of my bills paid through this app where you pay all of your bills. I use it. I've been using it for months now and I love it because all of my bills paid through this app and I use my MasterCard to make the payment and I get the points on the MasterCard. You get points now from Paytm, which you can use towards various things. You get free money, like real free money. No joke. Look at me. Do I look like a bull? No,

you get free money by using the promo code Toronto Mike when you make a bill payment. So even if you just right now go to paytm.ca, install the app and pay, I don't know, pay your Enbridge or your, your whatever, your hydro bill or something and use the promo code Toronto Mike just to get

the $10. Like why not? No brainer, right? Right. Right. I don? No-brainer, right? Right. I don't think they have Detroit area bills on there yet, so I don't know if you can use it, but go to paytm.ca and use the promo code TRONTO.

Mike, I don't guess turn off their phone. I should do that. I turn mine off. That's five bucks in the jar right there. Yeah, but I get to keep the money anyway. It's like Peter stealing from Paul. Let's talk about your move to CBC Sports. So you were at CBC Sports from 85 to 97? Yeah.

So it's a great, great run. If you don't mind, we're going to start with Dave Hodge because I've been teasing this for a while here. But I want to hear you elaborate on the influence of Dave Hodge. And then if you don't mind, can you take me back to that day when he flipped the pen? Cause you were there. I was,

well, first of all, let's get this right. Yeah. It was a pencil. Whoa. Not a pen. This is breaking news right now. Are you kidding me? No. Ask pencil. Whoa. Not a pen. This is breaking news right now.

Are you kidding me? No. Ask him. Everyone, I got to go back and listen to what he told me, but everybody calls it the pen flip, but it was a pencil. Okay. I'm 99.9% sure. I'll give you the one-tenth that I could be wrong. We got breaking news.

Ken Daniels. We just learned it was a pencil, not a pen. Ask Dave. See if he'll remember. Dave will go, how the hell do I remember? But Dave Hodge, my influence, when he was on The World Tonight on CFRB, he'd come on at 11.15 or 11.20, and I'd be in bed with my little Panasonic yellow twist radio.

It was a circular radio, and you could open it up, and I still have it to this day. I can see it in my mind's eye. Can you? You can go on and find Panasonic Twist Radio to see what I'm talking about.

They were very cool back then. And my parents would, you know, you'd have a bedtime, and I wouldn't get to watch the end of the Leaf game when I was even younger than I was when I was listening to Dave. And I'd listen to Foster Hewitt

or find Dan Kelly out of St. Louis. I'd go down the dial to KMOX. I'd hear Bruce Martin and Bud Lynch out of Detroit. It was magical back then. The pre-internet era where that was your way of traveling. I remember pulling in a station from Cleveland

and I'm like, my brain's exploding. I'm listening to Cleveland in my Toronto bedroom. How's that possible? And at night the signal was better I'm listening to Cleveland in my Toronto bedroom. Right. How's that possible? And at night, you know, at night the signal was better. So, and listening to Foster and just painting the picture for me and my dream of being in Maple Leaf Gardens at the time had not been there yet. And then later, as it got on a little bit, here's Dave Hodge and I'm listening to him every night going to bed, listening to him do the sports. night going to bed, listening to him do the sports and the voice eloquent and concise. And just that, that speaking voice to this day, you hear Dave Hodge and it just rings.

It's authority, right? Right. It's authoritative. It's beautiful. The tone, just everything. Dave, to me was perfection. And I know Dave in his job is somewhat of a perfectionist and that's why he's as talented as he was and expected that from others around him and I don't blame him he's highly principled as well yes highly

principled and and Ron McLean came from from that same school too so to grow up listening to Dave and I I've only met Dave once in my life and that was briefly, and I was at a Blue Jays game, and it was a playoff game, and it may have been 92 or 93, I don't remember which year, and I was doing CBC television for the Blue Jays in those years, hosting some games, maybe 20 or 30 years when CBC had some rights. And I was with my wife, and I walked up through the seats, and Dave Hodge was there, and I looked down as I'm going up the aisle, and my left and I see Dave and I said, I don't know if I said, hi, Mr. Hodge or hi, Dave, whatever. And he said, uh, Ken, and he knew me, which again, surprised me a little bit.

He said, Ken Daniels said, I just want to say, I love your work. You're doing a great job. Well, that meant the world to me just to hear that from Dave. I maybe was lying. I don't know, but it meant the world to me. And that's the only time, I maybe was lying. I don't know, but it meant the world to me and that's the only time I've ever spoken to Dave. And then I find out years later, he wound up, you know, with Brian Williams and the wedding parties

and they're best friends and here I was at 17 contacting Brian and didn't know how close those two were. They're having, probably having brunch together tomorrow with those guys.

Maybe. If you want to meet him again, just go to the Horseshoe Tavern tonight and catch the band that's playing there. He's probably in front of the stage. Well, that episode I did listen to because, you know, the 100 or whatever. I can't believe.

And his knowledge of music is incredible and so diversified. And to be up today on the newer stuff as he is, that's a true love and a true passion. He could post his own show on that. Yeah, I know, for sure. For sure. Like you said, in his Kick Out the Jams and no shame of the rest, all the Kick Out the Jams episodes have been great.

But the Dave Hodge, this is next level stuff. He brings his top 100 songs. He had a rule. He said to me, because normally we talk over this song. He said, we don't talk over my top 10 songs. You play them in their entirety, and then I'll talk about them. And I said, basically, yes, Mr. Hodge, as you wish. But there's one other chap, and he's coming in.

Chap? How old am I? I haven't heard chap in a long time. Where did that come from? The other guy who's going to come in and kick up the jams, who might be close to Dave Hodge, although nobody can match Dave, is Stephen Brunt. So that one I'm looking forward to, too. But yeah to Dave Hodge, although nobody can match Dave, is Stephen Brunt. So that one I'm looking forward to too.

But yeah, Dave Hodge. And shocks me, I have met Dave Hodge and conversed with him more times than you have. Oh yeah, for sure. But, you know, the fact that probably 70 of his 100,

I'd never heard of them. Yeah. And some I did write down at home because when he spoke of them, I said, I'll have to check this out. So I will. That's great. Now, the day of the pen flip.

Pencil flip? Pencil flip. You're right. I got to stop calling it pen flip. Where were you when the pencil was flipped? With my feet up on the desk at CBC waiting to do the late sports because we would follow the late local, the national. And then there'll be late local news after that, when the days that CBC didn't give a crap about overtime pay for everybody.

So they kept them on. They stopped that years later. But I was in the sports office above the Max Milk, just north of Maple Leaf Gardens, when the offices were on Church Street. And I watched that game, and it's around 11 o'clock. The Philadelphia-Montreal couldn't go there for overtime. And, you know, I have to find out who makes the decision, who explains who makes the decisions around here.

And good night from Hockey Night in Canada. I went, whoa, I wonder if he's going to be gone. And I walked out of the office and went back to the news area and they were all, whoa, that could be the end of Dave Hodge. We all thought the same thing. And I'm going, no, Dave Hodge can't possibly be gone. And sure enough, well, you know the rest of the story there, Paul Harvey. And then in comes Ron from Red Deer.

But Dave that night, and because earlier that day, I believe the curling was cut out for the Democratic Convention or the NDP. NDP, Bob Ray. Right. Bob Ray was winning that. And they cut away from curling, and Dave's from BC, and that was all part of it. So the whole day, I think, just came together, and that was the conclusion of a bad day of television from where the principal, Dave Hodge, and he wasn't wrong, would sit as opposition to what the news thought. So I was just waiting to go on. My script was ready.

When I used to do TV news and when I did radio, I never liked to give away the score in the on-camera. Figuring if you could keep people for 30 or 40 seconds, why are you giving the end of the book in the beginning? So it's, you know, I could write all my scripts generically at five in the afternoon and sit back and watch the games. So I'd say, you know, the Leafs are home to so-and-so tonight,

Detroit in a five-game winning streak. The Leafs looking for their first win in six. Let's go to Maple Leaf Gardens. And that would be it. And you get in and you do the highlights and the score is the score. So I was basically ready to go. I'm just sitting there waiting. And then that happened. Holy cow. That was unbelievable. It's become the stuff of legend. We talk about the pencil flip. And I remember Dave Hodge is here his first time. I met him for the first time.

I was like, you're meeting God. He's here, the presence, the authority. And he looks me in the eyes and he says, I don't want to talk about the pen. Well, he called it the pen flip at the time. Did he? Yeah, I don't want to talk about the pen flip. You have to ask him and let me know.

Well, I'm probably, you know what? If I go back and listen, I have to go back to that first episode, and he probably says it. I just can't remember. But he said to me, I don't want to talk about the pen flip. And I said to him, I have some questions about the pen flip. I said, when I ask them,

you can tell me you don't want to talk about them. It's like Trump not talking about Russia. I mean, come on. He's going to... Yeah. Russia. I mean, come on. Yeah. Well, you know, Eric M from Much Music. Remember Eric M? Sure. So I was talking to her about coming on this show and she's like, but yeah, I'll come on,

but I don't want to talk about Much Music. Really? She was Much Music. I said to her in the nicest way possible, I said, well, good luck. Yeah, nothing more here. I'm not going to have Erica M. come over and avoid what made her famous

and what my million questions would be about my music. But yeah, to Dave Hodge's credit, he did answer all of my pen flip questions, even if they should have been pencil flip questions. Well, you'll confirm that. I will confirm that. So we got CBC Sports, and what is it?

Ron McLean's in France for the Olympics in 94? Or am I jumping the gun? When do you get to start? Ron would have been when it was Elberville. Okay. So two things, I guess. One is that you did do some Coach's Corner with Don Cherry. Yes.

Yes. Well, the first Coach's Corner I ever did with Don would have been 1990, and Ron had a family emergency and had to go home. And Mark Askin was the producer that night. I was just covering for CBLT, the local Toronto station. So I went down to St. Louis. It was game one of the Stanley Cup playoffs, the Leafs and the Blues. So I was there, and it was, again, before cell phones were just coming out.

Is that the Gilmore wraparound game? Or is that the Curtis Joseph? Or am I mixing up? No, it was game one. That was earlier than that. No, Gilmore wasn't even there yet. I don't believe. 92? Okay, I think he was. No, it was 1990 though. Okay, I apologize. I thought it was 92. It was 1990. Well, again,

that's in the book if these walls could talk for verification. Which I did read. But yeah, I know. But it's, so it's game one and I go and I, the night before, I come back,

the red lights flashing in the hotel before the cell phones and it's Mark Askin. Ron McLean's had to go home. We've left his Hockey Night in Canada jacket. We'll pin up the sleeves for you.

Ron's a lot taller than I am. But not much taller. No, you're hosting Hockey Night in Canada. So I didn't sleep at all that night, if you can imagine, and you're hosting Coach's Corner with Don Cherry. So fast forward, we start the game. I do the open live and just when I'm coming on

camera, the Leafs come by me out on the ice at the old St. Louis arena and Todd Gill takes his glove and rubs it on the top of my head as he's going by. Well, that totally relaxed me because all the players knew how nervous I was. And I knew most of them back then. I was much closer with the hockey team back then, even though I wasn't working for them yet, uh, doing games.

So that settled me down because about an hour and a half earlier, I had taped coach's corner with Ron and he was his predictions for how the opening night of the playoffs would work. So we did it. It seemed to go fine. We're now halfway through the first period, and the Leafs were not looking very good, and St. Louis came out really strong. And Ron turns to me in the green room as we're watching the game. Don turns to me in the green room, and he says, Kenny boy, we're going to have to do this Coach's Corner live. Leafs didn't come out like I thought we did so for the Leafs region we'll have to go live

and I said Don because we tape it for the whole country right because a bunch of different games are going on at the same time so we tape it beforehand at 4.30 or 5 in the afternoon somewhat generic we'll have to go live for the Leafs region I said Don I was nervous enough the first time

I can't do it a second and he said don't worry I was great the first time I'll be great a it a second. And he said, don't worry. I was great the first time. I'll be great a second. So he didn't give a crap about me. And we did it live again for the Toronto region and it went okay. Don, Don really was wonderful to work with. He really was. And at the end, I think he said something like, look out Ron or something like that. So he was, uh, he was really good to work with. So that was my first time hosting hockey night in Canada was the opening of the Stanley Cup playoffs,

the Blues and the Leafs, and hosting Coach's Corner with Don. And then years later, when I was supposed to do ski jumping in Albertville, about a month before the Olympics, they said, Ron's going to be there. We don't want to go via satellite. Do you want to do the ski jumping

or would you rather stay behind and host Coach's Corner for a month with Don? I said, oh, twist my arm. I'll stay here. So that was great. So over time, I probably did five or six Coach's Corners. I thought the... I never even thought to ask this question of Ron, but

I assumed because Don always talks about stuff that happened in the first period. Isn't it always live? Well, it is. It might be. No, I don't even think now. It depends how many games are going at the same time. He always talks about something happening

in the first period, but now I need to pay attention. I just assumed it was live for Toronto and then maybe... Sometimes it is. I think, and they may do it now. I don't know the ins and outs now because I do watch it

quite a bit too. And if I'm on the road or I got a game and depending where we are and maybe watch it, I would say it can be. But if there are different games going, no. Right, because you don't know if Ottawa is going to get

to the first intermission before tournament. You're right. No, you know, it's funny. I never even thought about when they record the coaches. And with the Sportsnet channels now, and I don't know how it works. Interesting. They're interesting.

But you did your first, when did you do your first play-by-play for Hockey Night in Canada? 94? First play-by-play for Hockey Night in Canada? 94? First play-by-play for Hockey Night would have been the 94, 95 season, I believe. I was doing Leafs radio. John Shannon had come back to be executive producer of Hockey Night in Canada. I'd only met John a couple of times when he was producing Minnesota North Stars hockey,

and his play-by-play guy at the time was Dave Hodge. I had done some Leaf games on the road filling in for Joe Bowen, so I'd maybe do 15 or 20 Leaf games a year, and after games, if we were playing in Minnesota, we'd all go out for a drink and weren't leaving after the game necessarily. So that's how I met John. Years later, John came back to Hockey Night. At that same time, I'm interviewing, I'm at CBC Television doing Leaf Radio, doing CJC, or now The Fan, in the 90s.

And I was talking with the Vancouver Canucks about their radio job. And it was either going to be me or Jim Hewson. And the bottom line with this was if Jim Hewson wanted the job, it was his. And ultimately, it was his. So I'm not saying I ever would have got it because it was his job to lose or not to take. And John had called me one night and I'll never forget. And he said, I understand you're going for the Vancouver Canucks job. And I said, well, I doubt I'm going to get it, but yes. And he said, well, don't take it. I'm coming to hockey night in Canada. You're going said, well, don't take it. I'm coming to Hockey Night in Canada.

You're going to have to leave Leafs radio, though. No more Leaf games. I don't want any bad habits. And by that, he meant, no, boom, ba-boom, ba-boom, talk, talk, talk, talk, player, player, player, player, player. You're on TV. You've got moving pictures. You can see.

You don't have to talk the whole time. And those who do radio, you do have a bad habit of over-describing where you can let it breathe a little more. I thought maybe that was about, um, lose the Homerism because on the, the regional, the, the, you know, the leaf radio Bowen,

for example, clearly is a rooting for the leafs. Why wouldn't he be? Right. Right. But I'm not, right. But on hockey in Canada,

that's a different ball game. It is a different ball game. And I'm, I'm the, the same way, although sometimes it's hard. And I just came off two NBC games, um, with Detroit. And sometimes it's hard. I know I'm not one way, although sometimes it's hard, and I just came off two NBC games with Detroit,

and sometimes it's hard. I know I'm not one of those play-by-play guys who, when the visiting team scores, doesn't get excited. To me, a goal is a goal, and it always should be. If you were to take a decibel level to my Red Wing goal call and then the visitor, it would be like if you attends the high, maybe an eight for Detroit and a six and a half for the visitor. It's not quite the same. But even on a late goal by a visitor, it would be like if he attends the high, maybe an eight for Detroit and a six and a half for the visitor.

It's not quite the same. But even on a late goal by a visitor, I'm not going to say scores. Right. It's a disservice to the game, and I won't do it. But when you're calling a national game, yes, with Hockey Night. And further to that story, Mike, earlier when I had done Hockey Night in Canada games, play by play, when John had hired me, I did Vancouver-Calgary. Vancouver-Anaheim was my first game for hockey night.

I did a Vancouver-Calgary game. My brother lives in Calgary, calls me the next day after the game, and he said, you were a little pro on the Vancouver side. I said, holy crap, you're my brother. Seriously, do you think I care who wins? You don't. Any national announcer will tell you. Whatever game they are calling, they want a good game.

And if they're in the playoffs, there's no I in team. There's two I's in invoice. Trust me, they want a seven-game series. That's all. They do not care who wins. If you think so-and-so is biased against your team on a national game, you're wrong. They just want to work the game. They want a good game.

And that's how I go into every game. Now, I have to be conscious of the fact when I'm doing the Red Wings on a national game to bring up the level the other side and bring down Detroit a little bit to try to make it even. I am conscious of that. And I do have a tendency to give more stories

of the other team than Detroit. You do try to even it out that way. I had recently Tim Langton, who's the public address announcer at the Dome when you go to a Jays game. And he said one of the things is when he, early on, is that when he called the New York Yankee, whatever, coming up, he sounded so sad, like, batting for the

Yankees. Like, it was just too much. Like, so, yeah, you can have the Jays at the 10, but maybe get the opposition. Maybe you don't have to sound like you're asleep or whatever. Well, yeah, and you know, I talk about it in my book, and the Homerism, which we referred to, and Joe Bowen, et cetera, and I work for the Detroit Red Wings.

I'm paid by the Detroit Red Wings. So people who will say or they listen to a broadcast are out of town, and you can get them anywhere now, right, on any device. You have the NHL Center Ice Package. So you're listening, and boy, those Red Wing guys are Homers. Well, hello. No, you know what? I never understood this argument.

Who's the guy in Pittsburgh scratching my back of a hacksaw? Mike Lang. Right. Like to me, yeah, I'm with you. It's one thing when the Hawking and Canada is a whole different story, but when it's the Joe Bowen,

it's like when you watch a Raptors game and Jack Armstrong is, you know, get that garbage out of here and all this. He doesn't go get that garbage out of here when the opposition blocks. You know what I mean? Thank you. He's the best. Yeah.

So that's, you know, you have to be that way. There's still stories about the other team. And yes, you do want your team. But I think Mickey Redmond and I, my analyst in Detroit, if there's a penalty that's called and Detroit gets the favorable call on that end, Mickey will say, boy, the Red Wings wouldn't like it if that was called against them gets the, the favorable call on that end. Mickey will say, boy, the Red Wings wouldn't like it if that was called against them.

That's a bad call. So we will say that if a guy is not playing well, you're not going to bury him. Dylan Larkin just got to the other night and he hadn't scored in 17 games. Well, we point that out. It's not like we don't say it, but we're not going to bury them just like we wouldn't bury the guy in the

other team. So you can perceive it however you want to perceive it. But I'd love somebody to be, and I talk about this in the book as well, they're working, it's an old Seinfeld episode. If you're working for somebody, are you going to walk into your boss and go, you suck, really? Are you going to do that? Or are you just going to go along, do your job, do what you need to do,

you stay employed, it is what it is. You may not be happy with the way your boss handles things, but I'll bet you're not going to go along, do your job, do what you need to do. You stay employed. It is what it is. You may not be happy with the way your boss handles things, but I'll bet you're not going in and tell him that he sucks or she sucks. Do you know who did the voice of George Steinbrenner in those episodes? That was Larry David. That's correct.

Oh, you're not going to get me on Curb Your Enthusiasm and Seinfeld stuff, by the way. No, favorite. Oh, crap. I wish I'd known that before. I would have got some tough ones. But I love both those shows, by the way. I love them. I can watch them over and over again.

I have a Curb Enthusiasm hat, wear all the time to work out. This year's episode, episodes, I didn't love as much as previous years of Curb. But I am going to see J.B. Smooth in concerts next month. Remember that scene where he's telling, get in that ass, Larry, that whole thing? Oh, yeah. That might be the funniest, like maybe the funniest. That and the foisted one. Yeah.

I love the foisted episode. It was very funny. Yeah, so I'm looking forward to seeing J.B. Smoove. Get in that ass, Larry. Oh, J.B. Smoove. He was a great addition. But I like how they hook him up with Vivica Fox, and J.B. Smoove comes as part of the family,

and they get rid of everybody, but they said, we're going to keep this guy. He was a great addition to the cast. And J.B. Smoove got his job, always wanted to work with Larry David, went to a friend's funeral in Los Angeles at that time, had found a new agent, went to go visit the new agent because he had a day before his friend's funeral. And the new agency, when he was sitting in the office, another agent in that office came in and said, I need somebody.

Somebody canceled. I need someone to go in to read for Curb Your Enthusiasm. And J.B. Smooth was sitting there. And he said, do you want to go? And he said, hell yeah. He went in, stood up to Larry, gave everything that Larry could handle at the time. Larry wound up loving him. And that's how he got the job on Curb by a total coincidence because his friend passed away.

And he's in Los Angeles. Crazy. That is crazy. I'm aching here to get you to Detroit because I want to play some clips of you calling games and some Mickey Redmond and stuff. But just to wrap up your CBC because you didn't just do hockey at the CBC. You were hosting Blue Jays baseball

for years. Can you succinctly summarize some of the other sports you covered for CBC? Well, I did sports weekend, which would have included darts

as a network time filler. I didn't call darts. Formula One racing, I had to learn. I did Indy racing. Wasn't good at it, but I was in the pits.

I even had my honeymoon was in Vancouver. I always said my honeymoon was the pits. Maybe that's why the marriage didn't last. But anyway, I had to spend that at the Vancouver Indy. So I did the Toronto Vancouver Indy every year for about eight years. And Doug Sellers was the executive producer. We

lost Doug all too young, dying of a heart attack. Great guy. And he wound up working for Fox and Arthur Smith, who was my boss at CBC, who had me on the Olympic games along with Bob Moyer. Arthur wound up being the head guy at Fox who brought me from CBC to work for the Detroit Red Wings. He was at Fox in Los Angeles and hired me to work for Detroit. But at CBC, I would have done the sports weekends

filling in for Brian for a number of years. I did the early and the late local sports and working with Bruce Dobig and Don Martin. Wonderful time at CBC. Do you think Bruce has gone a little crazy? Just a little bit? Bruce has always been a little crazy. Okay, because maybe Twitter has just exposed it. Yeah. He's got some right-wing...

He's a brilliant guy. Bruce, and way beyond my knowledge, half the stuff he talked to me in the sports office, he'd do his words and I'd go, Bruce, I don't even understand you again. But Deb Light-O'Quinn, who's a wonderful producer I had at CBC, I worked so many different sports, did two Olympic games, including baseball and the canoeing and kayaking and tennis. Right, in Atlanta. You were in Atlanta in addition to Seoul. Yes, Atlanta in addition to Seoul. And in Seoul, as I talk about in the book, when I did tennis, I did Chris Everett's first match.

As tennis came back to the Olympics in 88 and Bob Moyer said, can you, I didn't want to do basketball because I didn't think I knew basketball well enough. He said, well, we need tennis covered. Here, go call the tennis match. We're going to come to you at points in the tennis match. And Chris Everett's playing. And I knew enough. I didn't know. I knew enough about tennis. But I went and I knew enough to sit behind Bud Collins, who was doing it live for NBC.

And before CBC came to me, I sat behind Bud and I was taking notes because he was live. And they came to me in the second set and he's talking all about Chris, just generic stuff, nothing about the match or just notes on Chris Everett because it was late notice. So basically everything Bud said, I took down notes in point form. Thus the training came in from knowing how to be concise. And when CBC came to me, I was sounded like I knew what I was talking about Chris Everett and her Italian opponent. And when I went back and Natalie Tedesco, who was our producer, said, Bob Moyer turned to me and said, for a guy who doesn't know shit about tennis, Daniels is pulling this one off.

So in other words, it's knowing who to sit behind. Yeah, that's great. So I knew to sit there with Bud Collins. Another good tip. Another good tip. Know who to sit behind. I was going to say, you knew about tennis because of playing with John Oates. Playing, yeah.

Hitting the ball over the net for five minutes with John Oates. That did it. But I want to just tell people this fun fact before we get to Detroit, which is, so you do the Olympics in Atlanta and somehow that gets you

to play the role of Olympic host on the NBC movie of the week on thin ice. The Thai Babylonia story. Yeah. Interesting. Well, again, as I mentioned earlier,

my friend Rich Kaplan, uh, talent agent here in Toronto, and he had me in quite a few movies, one with, uh, John Candy just before he passed with real per real Perlman. Right. And I'm trying. Carla Tortelli from Cheers. Yeah.

From, from Cheers. And Michael Moore was the producer of that. Michael Moore, about a year after I did it was on the fan and I knew he was coming on. I don't know what he was talking about at the time, but I picked up the phone and I introduced myself to him and I said, did I make the movie? And he said, no, actually you're on the cutting room floor. You didn't get in it. And I said, well, that's a bummer.

And he said, did you get paid? And I said, yeah. I said, then what do you care? So I said, okay, that did that one. So yeah, I did the Thai Babylonia story on thin ice. I also did the Philadelphia phenomenon, the garbage kicking, the garbage kicking field goal.

He was, Tony Danza was kicking field goals for the Philadelphia Eagles. See, before it's time, Super Bowl champions. So before their time, Super Bowl champions. So before their time. And he became a field goal kicker for the Eagles and I was a reporter in that too. So I had a few movies to my credit and I still, through Actry, still get paid

to this day. Pretty cool. Hold me closer, Tony Danza. I think that's what Elton John sang. Hold me closer, Tony Danza. Close, Tiny Danza. Alright. Let's talk Dancer. All right. Let's talk more rock. Detroit.

Not quite Hall & Oates, but it'll have to do. Get Hall & Oates to do a Detroit song, and I'll play that one, too. Okay. So, tell me how you end up calling games for the Detroit Red Wings, and then I'll play a little clip I pulled of you calling a play, just to get a taste of your voice, and then we'll pick it up there,

but tell me how you ended up in Detroit. I was working, Hockey Night in Canada, did a seven-game series in 1997. Again, Mark Askin was my producer. I was working with Greg Millen, and it was Buffalo, Ottawa, that the Sabres won in overtime in seven. Again, Mark Askin was my producer. I was working with Greg Millen, and it was Buffalo, Ottawa, that the Sabres won in overtime in seven. Then I went on to the second round series

with Buffalo playing Philadelphia. While I was in the building in Buffalo that has changed names so many times, but still the same building that has still the payphone, believe it or not, outside the broadcast booth, Dave Strader, the late great Dave Strader, was one year removed from working games with Mickey Redmond in Detroit. Dave was working ESPN International with Mickey. And he walked into my booth and he said, I'd met Mickey a couple of times. And he said, Mickey wants me to let you know they're letting the guy go in Detroit who replaced me. They're looking for a new play-by-play guy and Mickey wanted me to let you know. in Detroit, who replaced me.

They're looking for a new play-by-play guy, and Mickey wanted me to let you know. So I got on the pay phone, believe it or not, called my agent, Maury Goss' friend in New York, and I told Maury, how fast can you get a tape to the Detroit Red Wigs? And he said, we'll get that together, and the next morning, Greg Millen, we were driving back from Buffalo to Toronto

because I was on set with Tony Danza for that movie the next morning at 7 o'clock. So it was a whirlwind. We got the tape together, and I applied. I went down for an interview with Atanas Illich, one of Mike and Marian's sons, and I met with Atanas, came back home, and then shortly thereafter, that was the tragic limo accident that June after the Red Wings won the Cup in 97. Sergei Manatsakhanov and Vladimir Konstantinov and Fetisov was in that accident.

So I saw that watching the CTV late local news at 11 o'clock in my house, knowing I'd applied for the Detroit Red Wings. And I said, well, it's going to be a long time before I find out about this job because I'm the least of their worries right now. And sure enough, that was, you know, that was June. I went down there at the end of May. I didn't get the job until September 6th. And originally, I'd turned the job down because three nights before, and I had not really heard anything concrete yet from the Red Wings, John Shannon offered me a new three-year deal to stay with Hockey Night. I agreed on a handshake deal with John.

Three days later, the Red Wings called me, and the money nor term was right for me to go because I was moving my family. My kids were one and four at the time, and I wasn't sure. And then Arthur Smith called back from L.A., whom I mentioned I had the association with from CBC, and Arthur couldn't believe I turned it down. And I explained why, and I said,

Arthur, I told the Red Wings I wasn't coming on a two-year deal. I needed more than that to move my family. And 20 minutes later, they called back, you got it, will this do? And I said, okay, and I called back John Shannon. I said, what do I do? And I remember Greg Mellon was at his house. You know those moments in time you just remember

like they were yesterday? And I was sitting on the front porch of my house and this is a four o'clock on a Thursday afternoon and I was nervous and I go, this is, you're moving your family, and you're knowing the only life you've ever known here. I'm going to Detroit, and I called John, and John said, you've got to go.

I can give you probably maybe 30 weeks, 10 playoff games, maybe 20 weeks during the season. The only way you're going to get better is to do more games, and he said, you've got to go. So he said, I'll handle Alan Clark of CBC. I'll worry about that. He wasn't happy I was breaking the agreement, but that's how I wound up in Detroit. It's good to have options.

Yeah. Yeah, at the time, yeah, it was. Let's play a little, let's hear a little bit of you calling Detroit Red Wings here. Let's listen. Bronson on a change. Rafalski in flight. To the middle.

Let's go. Oh, and he fanned on him. Off the heel of the stick. Sederberg gets headlocked. Six seconds left. Philpula threw it back in. Satterberg shoot it quickly. Scores! He does! A bumper beater!

Two-night straight, and the Red Wings win it. 4-3 in overtime. Three-tenths of a second left. This is unbelievable. You couldn't write a better script than the Red Wings have. All but missing the one point last night. Late game heroics. And they come up with five of six points here in Western Canada. Oh, those were

the good old days. I'm hearing these names I'm like... Rafalski, Littstrom, now you're making me envious. You know who went to my high school since you dropped? Drake went to your high school. Brendan Shanahan went to my high school. Mimico? Yeah, Michael Power when it was at Islington and Bloor area there. Brendan was a great

guy. And back in those days, yeah, Michael Power when it was at Islington and Bloor area there. Brendan was a great guy. You know, and back in those days, Brendan, Larry Murphy, and I think I heard Murph going, that was Larry doing a road game with me there. And Murph, when he played for Detroit, when he came over from Toronto, and I want to bet on that, by the way, it was March 18th, my birthday trade deadline, and it was Gare Joyce. I know Gare. Yeah, and Gare said, there's no way the Leafs are going to make a deal.

And I had walked into the stick room a couple of minutes after that and I see Brian Papineau taping up all of Larry Murphy's sticks. Papi said nothing to me and I walked back out and I said, you know, I think they're going to make a deal. And Gare said, no way.

And it's like two minutes to three. And I said, yeah, I think Murphy they're going to make a deal. And Gare said, no way. And it's like two minutes to three. And I said, yeah, I think Murphy's going. He said, I'll bet you dinner. Yeah. The key to that is you always walk into the stick guy's room because he's got them. And I knew. And Larry was dealt to Detroit. And then Larry and I, to this day, are very good friends.

He was my broadcast partner for years. And to the point about Brendan, the guys were older then. Igor Larionov, Brendan Shanahan, Larry Murphy. Now they're all so young. And at the time we used to hang out with those guys when they were playing. It was great. Now it's just like, you know, the kids, it's like grandpa. Absolutely. Absolutely.

I have another clip. Actually, maybe first let me ask you about working with Mickey Redmond. So you tell us some great stories. You got an hour? I know. Can I beat Howard Berger's time? Get the book. There's a whole chapter on Mick. These walls could talk. And I have a clip and I'm a little bit embarrassed here that I'm not

100% sure I pulled this clip is featuring Mickey Redmond. Can I play a clip? You're in it. Can I play the clip and you can just afterwards confirm if this is Mickey or not? I'll confirm in a second. Yeah. Here, let me play this here. Nearly 50% in career shootout attempts on josh harding datsukian scores what a datsukian dig that was goodness he undressed josh harding and the red wings lead won nothing in the shootout what is that hanging

from the upper end it's a big jack strap ohrap. Oh, my God. How many dekes were here? One, two, three, four. Oh, and then he pulled the string on it and went up. And just missed. All right. I think, yeah, so that's Mick. That's great. That's him.

And, you know, he is, and people ask me about Mickey Redmond, and I say he is to Michigan and in many other parts of the United States, big hockey fans. And remember, he worked Hockey Night in Canada before he was with the Red Wings full-time after his playing days were over, Detroit's first 50-goal score in back-to-back seasons. He is to Michigan what Don Cherry is to Canada. Basically, when you walk anywhere with Mickey, and so sought after for speaking engagements, he would give his shirt off his back to Canada. Basically, when you walk anywhere with Mickey and so sought after for speaking engagements, he would give his shirt off his back to anyone. We have become very close. It's going

to be a very sad day for me when he retires. He's 70 now, but still going great. He doesn't do all the road games. He's not on this trip. He has celiac disease. I think he's got Crohn's. He's had two cancers of both sides of his lungs, back issues. As David Letterman used to say, I wouldn't give his troubles to a monkey on a rock. I don't know what that phrase means, but it applies to Mickey. I mean, so many stories with Mick and so many are in the book, but from day one, it was a transition for both of us because I came from hockey night and you know, like Bob Cole, when it was a transition for both of us because I came from hockey night and you know, like Bob Cole, when he calls a game, you don't interrupt. Yeah.

The game has changed now. It's become more conversational. But back when I came, I was used to hockey night where play by play, I was maybe 70, 30. When I came to Detroit, it was pretty much 50, 50. So, you know, you weren't even getting the goal call out and Mickey was jumping in. I got to say, and he knew it bugged me the first year. And then after that, we just became so close and had so much fun as I write about in the book.

And every time, and I still feel it, I'll be in the broadcast booth long before Mickey is, because if the game starts at 730, he arrives at 728.50. But I'm there before, because I have to look at stuff that he really doesn't need to see. It's more for me and I'll lead him into stuff during the game. But when he comes in, it's like, hey, Kenny boy. It's like, you know, it's like, honey, I'm home. And it's just home for us. We have such a good time.

We're laughing during the game. And it's, yeah, it's a Homer broadcast, but it is feels very much at home for both of us. We just have a blast. That's awesome. It is. To be, to work with somebody, and it does become a marriage. And we've been together now 21 years, the longest serving TV duo in the National Hockey League, current. And our wives are best friends. They go to Paris

together. They go to Mexico together. When we're gone, they'll travel together. So to have that relationship, I go away and my dog is a beautiful golden doodle, a year old. His name is Jack, Jack Daniels. So I do have to be careful when I go to the park and there's women around and I say Jack down as opposed to something else. You have to be very careful about that. So Mickey will take the dog when we're gone. He's got two golden doodles. So just the relationship to be able to work with someone and then also spend your off time with them and never get tired of one another is a blessing

because there are many broadcast duos through any sports through the years will not spend time together away from the game. And we do, and we love it, and barbecues, and out by the fire, and nights. Sure makes it easier. It makes it easier. It's just great.

And Darren Elliott and Chris Osgood who fill in for the games where Mickey doesn't travel as much because of, we joke, he takes a Coleman stove on the road because he has to bring his own food because of celiac. So it's a tough grind for him. It really is. And Chris and Darren are both great, too. So it's been terrific. Let's go back to June 4th, 2008. And I'm going gonna play a clip and then we're actually this is a clip of um cal ken cal our radio guy right uh so this is game six of the 2008 stanley

cup finals we have red wings uh against the penguins so let's let's hear because cal's gonna talk about it and then we're gonna we hear you. So let's listen for a couple minutes here. The 2008 Stanley Cup Finals, Game 6, we're at Mellon Arena in Pittsburgh. And wouldn't you know it, I come up with laryngitis. I walked to the rink and it was about eight blocks away and there was a Catholic church. I remember walking up the stairs to the Catholic church. I knelt down and I'm kind of whispering and I said, look, I know you don't see me in here as much as you'd like, but if there's any way that maybe a silver lining can come out of this, you know, at least show me the way. Ken Daniels was called in from Detroit when they knew I couldn't go and do the game. 45 seconds left. I think there was a face-off and Ken took his

headset off and I was standing next to Paul behind him and he says hey You're doing the last 15 seconds, and I look at him and I go no. I'm not he goes. Yes. You are I go No, I'm not I can't talk. He says yes. You are he says put your headset on suck it up and do it All right, but the headset on he throws it over to me And I had enough voice left just to call the final 15 seconds. 15 seconds to go. That's who tripped, and can Cal bring us home for the Stanley Cup with 10 seconds left? Gotchar flips it over the line.

Lidstrom fires it out to center ice. Five seconds to go. Gotchar to Malkin over the Detroit line, pushes it forward. Backhand drive. Oh, it's good to see. And the rebound slipped right through the goal line. Time will run out, Yeah, and Marion Hossa, who a year later would come to Detroit as he continued to chase the cup and finally got that in Chicago, but Marion Hossa just flipped it wide of Chris Osgood,

and my only thought was was if they score here, Ken Cal is the biggest jinx in the history of the National Hockey League. I already call him Schlepprock because anything that bad can happen, including losing your voice on the day you're going to call the Stanley Cup, I felt so badly for him. I call him Schlepprock because everything bad seems

to happen to him, but I'm glad he could do it. That was a classy move on your part. Well, thank you. You know what? It was his domain. It wasn't mine. I would do unto others. I would hope someone would offer the same to me.

And, you know, years earlier, I guess it was the first cup, 96-97, Bruce Martin, whom Ken idolized, and he goes very high in his goal calls like Bruce Martin did. Ken had Bruce call the second period of Game 4, Philadelphia and Detroit. And funnily enough, Darren McCarty, Deke Yanni-Ninema, then Ron Hextall gets what turns out to be the cup-winning goal, and Bruce Martin, longtime voice of the Red Wings,

whom Ken Cowell replaced, got to call it. So Ken did that for Bruce, although under different circumstances, I had no right taking Ken's call in what was his. I have memories of the 92 World Series. I think it was Jerry Howarth's turned call, right? And he handed over to Tom, which was a classy move. So yeah, it's just great that you guys do that kind of thing

because that's really, really, really cool. And Jerry Howarth, what a wonderful guy. And Jerry and I worked together in the early 80s when he first came and was in the newsroom and he would do the sports at CJCL. And when I was there, so I'd known Jerry for a long time and the games were, we would spend some time on the road when I was working for CBC. So he didn't have the same relationship with Tom that I had with Mickey Redmond, but that was a little different, but very classy by him with Tom.

Now, when I was listening to the call, I actually had goosebumps. I could just hearing the Stanley Cup winning call there when you pass the mic over to Cal and then he takes it home. And I watched just today when I was pulling that clip, I'm watching it on YouTube, right? Yeah, they came very close to tying that game. Well, that's he takes it home. And I watched just today when I was pulling that clip, I'm watching it on YouTube, right? Yeah, they came very close to tying that game.

Well, that's what I'm saying. Hosa just lifted through the crease, and Chris Osgood, who's now my analyst, filling in for Mickey on games. We talk about that. We even joke because the size of Ozzie's sweater, we always say I'm surprised the puck didn't wind up in there because that was before the tight-fitting sweaters or tighter.

He was wearing a tent. I mean, he's only 5'10 or 5'11 anyway. And the goalies just looked so big back then. Now, you mentioned Jerry Howarth. And do you mind if I play? Let me play because Jerry never got to. It's your show. You can do whatever you want.

Jerry never got to call a World Series when he didn't do the touch-em-all and all that. That was always Tom Cheek. But he did call this play, which I have here. I'm just going to... One and one on Jose. All eyes on the mound and the bearded Sam Dyson. Now he comes

up. Kicks. The one-one pitch. Fly ball deep left field. Yes! And there she goes. And Jerry lets the crowd noise in for a good length of time here. And it's beautiful. Classic. That's a, you know, let it breathe.

And in those moments, that's what you do. You know, maybe the most thrilling moment for me would have been a season ago in the closing of Joe Louis Arena. And you just, you know, I had my say with maybe 30 seconds left and then just let the crowd bring it home. And that was a very, very sad night for an old barn. We, we couldn't wait to leave, but all the memories that we had there. And for me in the time that I had there with my son, because he moved when he was four and I lost him in 2016. So that was a very sad day for me and hosting the end of that. So a lot of memories flooded back and a lot of tears that day.

And Mickey was crying on the air. That was a tough day, but that's just when you let the crowd bring it and a joyous night and a sad night. And hopefully the viewers feel that. Are you comfortable talking a little bit about Jamie? Oh, my goodness, yes. Anytime you want to talk about that great kid, I'll talk about him all day long. I do speaking engagements all the time now, speaking out against any opioid use.

So go ahead. I have a platform. We're starting a foundation, which will be underway, we hope, in the next few months, jamiedanielsfoundation.org. We hope in the next few months, jamiedanielsfoundation.org. So we're going to raise money to get people into the first month treatment, which can be very expensive after we vet a family and get them clean, go through detox, and remember, like, mental illness, and it's all part of it, and opioid use, and it's a disease.

You don't want it. It's a disease, and my son was addicted to it. Wherever you want to go, Mike, I'm good with it. Okay. You did write about it in the book, so I felt I could bring it up. Otherwise, I wouldn't. No, it's fine.

December 7th, 2016. Yep. So there's a knock at your door, and it's a Birmingham police officer. Yeah. One that I didn't know, because I know many of them them and they wouldn't come. They got the call from Florida.

And I was just wrapping holiday gifts. It was early December. But we had just got back from Winnipeg. And when I went back to Winnipeg and saw Dennis Bayak and the crew out there, and they all remembered because we sat around the table having dinner and we were talking a bit about Jamie, more about hockey. And then I talked to Jamie that night in Winnipeg after the game and Red Wings weren't good in the first period. And, um, I remember talking to him just outside the dressing room. So December 6th of 2016,

and he said, uh, how'd you guys wind up? And I told him we won the game. We came back and won. And he said, boy, you were awful early. And I said, yeah, we were. I said, what were you doing? He said, well, I watched the first period. Then I went out and I painted my car, the wheels on the car. And I said, you didn't, he goes, no dad, seriously, you're going to like it. And I said, yeah, we were. I said, what were you doing? He said, well, I watched the first period. Then I went out and I painted my car, the wheels on the car. And I said, you didn't. He goes, no, dad, seriously, you're going to like it. And I said, no, I'm going to hate it. He goes, no, you won't. You'll like it. I painted it, but I can't take pictures. It's too dark. I'll take them when I get into work in the morning. He was working for a law firm as a clerk and he never woke up. And then the Birmingham knock on the door about 10.15, and he said, your son Jamie Daniels. And I said, what happened? And I wasn't thinking that,

but I thought maybe a car accident or something. And there you go. He'd been seven and a half months clean. But unfortunately, the place that he wound up living, and there will be, and I don't know when this episode 318 is running, but ESPN E60 is doing a doc on Jamie's life, which I'm not sure if TSN is going to run it or not. I'm hoping they will because we need to get the word out.

But it should be running early April. We think it may not, but at some point it will. But they're doing the story off Craig Custon's piece in The Athletic, and it spoke all about it and patient brokering, and I don't know how much you need or want to know about that. Well, so your son was 23 years old. Correct, yeah. You know, I feel for you, and my condolences.

Thank you. When you tell the story of your Jamie, I hear the story. I hear James, my oldest, and I can't imagine what you've been through. Sure. Well, Dave Schultz, too, who lost his son, Scott Oak, who lost his son, Bruce, six years ago, and Scott's doing so many wonderful things in Winnipeg and building

a home. It's going to be millions of dollars and through Darcy and his great illusionist work has raised so much money and it's going to help so many and it's long-term treatment that's needed. One month doesn't do, you got to go out, you've got to be sober. And for those who are addicted to any type of medication and you go through detox and you become sober and it's an everyday battle, and then you need a place to live because the worst thing that many of these kids can do is go back and live at home because if you're old enough not to and then there's that mistrust there and you have to go be with your peer group and be

responsible on a daily basis and there's not the mistrust from the parents and wondering why aren't you here what are you doing you got to be on your own and that's where Jamie wasn't his own was in a great place and then another great place and then met this kid at a at an outpatient program at meetings that they all attend and this kid whether Jamie asked him or the kid asked him no one to me but all I know is after Jamie switched houses and I said why and he was you know 245 a week which he was paying for three of the weeks I was paying for one it's expensive and then you've got food and you're drug tested right you're in a sober home and this kid met him at a meeting, took him to a home where it's covered by insurance, supposedly at 50

bucks a month. Well, what they do is you go to these homes, which are sober homes. Now, this is in Florida, and in many other states it's happening. So that's why I want people to be aware of this. And you have to do your due diligence and do your homework on where you are because you go live in a home where drugs are there and then they'll send you to labs for testing or a doctor who will send you to a lab and you only need to pee in a cup maybe once a week but they'll run a full gamut of tests that i was getting bills for jamie for seventeen thousand dollars and fifteen thousand dollars through lab work that didn't need to be done and on three of the days he was with us over thanksgiving about three weeks before he passed, two weeks before he passed.

And later we got documents from Florida with his signature on the dates that he was with us. And I got a picture with Jamie and Bob Cole at Joe Louis Arena. And the FBI called us and we'd been working with them for months in investigating the doctors and forged signatures of Jamie that were not his. Couldn't have been. He was with us. Right. And bills for thousands of dollars. So that were not his. Couldn't have been. He was with us. Right. And bills for thousands of dollars.

So that's what happens. You go live somewhere, that's the bottom line. You go to a home, they send you to a doctor who sends out your lab work and the lab's bill, the doctor's bill, the homes get paid off, and you're stuck. And I know people who've had millions of dollars in insurance bills, and the homes are anything but sober.

Well, yeah, your term is predatory rehabs. That's what it is. And they call it patient brokering or body brokering, where kids will go find kids with insurance. And if you see a kid in Florida and many other states, if you're walking with a suitcase, they're gold. Hey, you need a place to live? You got insurance? Come with me. 50 bucks a month, you're all covered.

Well, that's where Jamie met this kid. And I remember Jamie calling me and he said to me, I met this kid, dad. It's an awful story. His dad had taken his own life and this kid's got no money. I'm taking them to Target. I've given them some of my t-shirts. I said, whoa, whoa, whoa. I got one kid to worry about. I don't need to worry about another. And four days later, Jamie died with his roommate, that kid in his apartment with him. So even when he went to this other doctor and Jamie had anxiety issues, and he said, the doctor put me on this medication because he sent me a picture of the pill bottle because we were paying for his co-pays. And I said, you're already on Prozac. What did he switch you to? And at the time,

I didn't look it up yet. As it turns out, I think it was a generic form of Xanax. Well, any recovering addict should not be on Xanax. Well, he was put on Xanax and four days later, wound up dead, probably feeling that he was okay. He took something he shouldn't have. I'm not absolving Jamie from that. He should have known to take nothing. But Xanax can make you prone to blackouts, make you feel like you're on top of the world. And from what we understand through ESPN's investigation now, he got, I know where he got the drug from. I hope TSN picks this up. We hope so. We need to get the word out because it's an epidemic. I know President Trump, say what you want, but at least the end of October, he did crack down on the amount of prescription drugs that doctors can write in the U.S. I mean,

you could go for a shoulder problem or you have some aches and pains, they'll write you oxycodone or Percocet. They'll give you a hundred pills. Like who needs that? The CDC, the Center for Disease Control says it's 72 hours. Our team doctor, Tony Colucci, who I'm doing work with now with the Red Wings, we go out and we speak a lot about it. He won't give more than 48 hours any medication, then it's a Tylenol 3. So any kids today playing high school sports, you don't know except for abstinence. You don't know how the receptor in your brain, as Scott Oak says, and I've used his line in my speeches now, it's nature versus nurture. You can have two kids, same family.

One could have that chemical receptor in your brain that you get an oxycodone, Percocet, anything like that. And you go, Ooh, I like this. And the other one will have no effect. Right. You don't know, don't start. Don't just say, Oh, I've had my wisdom teeth

out, which we flushed Jamie's pills for wisdom teeth. He got them from someone else, we believe, after the fact. But, and a freshman after Jamie passed, Jamie went to Michigan State, graduated with a 3.5, was studying for LSATs. The kid called me wanting my forgiveness who started him on opioids in the frat at Michigan State.

What did you say to that kid? I wished he'd never met him. but he also told me, you know, he had been clean now. And I said, then, then you stay clean and you go speak out against it. Do something with your life and make Jamie's life not a waste. I can never forgive you for doing that. I wish he'd never met you, but now do something with it. Go out and make your life the best it can be. Stay clean every day. See what happened to him

and learn from it. Don't go there. So, you know, obviously I want him to succeed, but do I wish my son never met him? Sure. Obviously. In that vein of,

you know, you've taken this tragedy and at least you, there's a, you can help others sort of prevent this from happening to to other parents uh we hope so and i i'm with families against narcotics in the states and there are many chapters now in michigan there are many chapters throughout the states and judge linda

davis macomb county in michigan has probably the worst heroin um overdose and addiction anywhere in michigan and again what happens with opioids is you can start on prescription meds and opioids are somewhat expensive and if you can't get them from doctors and hopefully kids won't be able to now. My son also faked a test. He wasn't stupid. He faked a test when he was in high school

to get Adderall so you could, you know, help you focus more, so you have longer term to study for tests. And then what happens is Adderall becomes a little bit of advice and then you'll try something else. And then if you've got extra Adderall pills, you can sell those for opioids.

And then when opioids become too expensive for you, you turn to heroin, which is cheaper. And heroin can be mixed with fentanyl or carfentanil, which is an elephant tranquilizer. A little speck, the grain of a sand will kill you. And that's, Jamie never shot up, but he did take pills.

And that's what happened. He took a pill, got some And that's, Jamie never shot up, but he did take pills and that's what happened. He took a pill, got some in that house, which was heroin pill laced with fentanyl. And there may have been only a speck in there, but it shocked his heart. And someone who'd been clean and they didn't have, or his roommate, they panicked in the house, didn't have Narcan, which can reverse

the receptors in the brain and stop it from clinging to the receptor, can stop, reverse the effects of an opioid or a heroin overdose. And they didn't have that. And it shocked his heart and he died. So with Linda Davis, we're speaking lots about it now. And she was, if you see any of the press conferences with Donald Trump, Linda Davis is right there.

So she's got their ear with the Republican Party and are trying to change how doctors prescribe pills and what we do and stopping from China and Mexico and the influx of heroin and fentanyl coming into the United States and ultimately into Canada. And it's a big epidemic in Canada too, as you know. It's everywhere and there's safe injection houses here, which I often wonder about. But you know, those who are addicted, you're getting a safe needle. You're not risking the hepatitis and other things that can happen. Right, right. An unused needle, if you will.

And at least, what's the name again of the, if you take fentanyl, there's that, what do they shoot into to save your life? Well, there's Narcan. There's Narcan, and there's others as well, but Narcan. And there are many places who give out Narcan kits. To me, it's like a Band-Aid. You're giving someone, you're giving them the ability to get high.

But if you're in a safe place and you're teaching education and you can maybe get that person there to go in for intensive treatment and a 30-day program if they want to. That's the key. go in for intensive treatment and a 30-day program if they want to. That's the key. So to that end, if those injection houses are helping people maybe lead them go, maybe you should be going this path. Even if it's one out of 10 in a life you can save, that's good. It's a weird thing for me.

I know they're in Pennsylvania now. They're not yet in Michigan. I struggle with it. I don't know what the right answer is. I can only tell you Jamie's story. I don't know. Well, I'm glad you did because I know it must be difficult for you, but I'm glad you did because I'm sure there's parents listening to this podcast right now who have a son or daughter who's struggling with opiate addiction. And if you see your child just nodding off at the table or not paying attention or losing interest or staying in the room or not caring and talking all kids talk back but you know if it's worse than normal and jamie would

be doing things that normally wouldn't do very loyal kid very helpful kid oh my god and funny i miss his laugh every day hilarious um you know and and did well enough in school i mean he got through he was no dummy, but there were just times there where you could just see him nodding off and I'd say to him, you high and believe me, addicts lie. They will lie. They will find a way they will lie to your face. And Jamie lied to mine many times and told me after the fact, how many times he did lie and how much money he took from me that he didn't really need, not stealing, that I gave him that he didn't need. And Scott O called me one day and he said, did you ever notice where Jamie might, because

Scott knew of this from Bruce and neither of us have the right answer. We can only tell our own son's respective stories. And he said, do you know how many times Jamie would call you from Michigan State and say, dad, I need 25 bucks. You know, there's a cover charge or dad, we're doing a party at the frat. It's, I need an extra 50 bucks. And you know, you can just send it through the phone, whatever, you know, mobile.

Email transfer. Yeah, right. So, and I said, yeah, he did. He said that was the cost of an opioid. Never even dawned on me at the time. Never even hit me. And a number of kids have passed away from the frat that he was at,

which closed down two years after he left. So I think a lot of it starts at college campuses. A lot of it starts with the initiations. A lot of it starts with the pledges. And Jamie was one of those pledges who sat in the basement of his frat with water torture for a week, ate live goldfish and everything else. And I remember Jamie saying to me after the fact, if I can get through this, dad, I can get through anything. And I said, so it made you stronger. He said, hell yeah. But then he would in turn do that to the pledges. I think the whole thing is stupidity. They've got

to stop it. There are lawsuits now in the United States of kids who've died in college for ingesting too much water over a period of time and they die. How senseless. And some kids are up now for second degree murder and the parents are suing, but it's happening everywhere. Why is that necessary to be part of a frat? That shows your manhood, but this is what goes on. And I guess that part of life, you're part of that group. Great.

If you want to be part of that group, don't be part of it. Bad shit can happen. Your book. I recommend it to everybody listening right now because the stories like, like I said, even before you get to Detroit, I'm like glued to every word and you're telling stories. And a lot of the questions I asked you were because I was interested in the stories you were telling in the book from Harold Ballard to, well, the Mickey Redmond stories are great. Dan Shulman, Dave Hodge. Chapter on Scotty, too.

Right. And as Dan says in the book, and I quote him in there because I went for dinner with him a year ago, and Dan said to me, luck is when preparation meets opportunity. And it's so true for his career, it's so true for mine,

and I'll bet you it's so true for so many in this business. I've got to read the full title. It's a very long, full title.

Oh, don't read the bottom part. The bottom part isn't really for, you know, it's just the top part. If these walls could talk, Detroit Red Wings. Fantastic. Ken Daniels, even without a mustache, this was an absolute pleasure.

It's an old picture of me, though. I couldn't find a more recent one. I look much younger. But I do now see that that picture you chose, there's no mustache. Oh, yeah, that's for damn sure. I hope you had a good time. Mike, it's a blast. Keep up the great work you do.

And it's, for me, being in Detroit, to hear all the guys that I work with over the years, it's a pleasure to hear their stories. Gord Stelic's coming in soon. Love Gordy. Yeah, it's been a long time in the making. Honky the Christmas Goose. Gordy and I and Johnny Bauer on Christmas Day. Oh, I love Honky the Christmas Goose.

I play that every Christmas. Miss Johnny, great, great man. Johnny, I love Honky the Christmas Goose. I play that every Christmas. Miss Johnny, great, great man. Johnny, there you go, Johnny and Bill Lawrence, two of the best folks I've ever met. And that brings us to the end of our 318th show. You can follow me on Twitter. I'm at Toronto Mike. Ken, are you on Twitter?

I'm not. Ken's not on Twitter. I choose not to. I follow anonymously, but I do not tweet. I do not tweet, never have, but I do follow for a news source. Brunt does that too. Ken's not on Twitter. I choose not to. I follow anonymously, but I do not tweet. I do not tweet, never have, but I do follow for a news source. Brunt does that too. He's secretly on there. It's a mean social world. I don't search my name, don't want to know.

That's probably for the best. It's better that way. Our friends at Great Lakes Brewery are at Great Lakes Beer. Propertyinthesix.com is at Raptors Devotee. Paytm is at Paytm Canada. And Camp Turnasol is at Camp Turnasol. See you all next time.