Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Kevin McGran: Toronto Mike'd #389

Episode Date: October 22, 2018

Mike chats with Toronto Star sports reporter Kevin McGran about covering the Leafs, the new Toronto Star paywall, the demise of Star Touch, the future of newspapers and more.

Welcome to episode 389 of Toronto Mic'd, a weekly podcast about anything and everything. Proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, a fiercely independent craft brewery located here in Etobicoke. Did you know, Kevin, that 99% of all Great Lakes beer remains here in Ontario? GLB. I paused for like a half a heartbeat does kevin want to chime in i didn't know but but now i do you learned something today glb brewed for you ontario and property in the six.com toronto real estate. And Paytm, an app designed to manage all of your bills in one spot. Download the app today from Paytm.ca.

And Census Design and Build, providing architectural design, interior design, and turnkey construction services across the GTA. construction services across the GTA. I'm Mike from TorontoMike.com, and joining me is Toronto Star sports reporter Kevin McGran. I have a question for you right off the top. I asked the questions around here, Kevin. Where does the 1% that doesn't stay in Ontario go? Halifax. So they truck 1% of their beer to Halifax, Nova Scotia. So there's, they truck 1% of their beer

to Halifax, Nova Scotia. So there you go. Does it go with the musicians who come back here? They just sort of take it and grab it? I think, yeah, Sloan likes to carry it with them

when they go over there. But yeah, there's a place in Halifax selling Great Lakes beer. Otherwise, you got to be in Ontario. Like, they're crazy about freshness.

Like, at some point, actually, why don't I do it right now since they're crazy about freshness. Like at some point, actually, why don't I do it right now since we're talking about Great Lakes Brewery. So there's a six pack in front of you. That's yours, my friend. Oh, thank you. That's awesome. And I think you have the last. I was there on Saturday. They are all out of the pumpkin ale. There's none left. I'll deliver this to Dave Schultz himself.

Oh, yeah. His son, his daughter, right? That's right, the hipster. That's right. On that note, so first of all, enjoy your six-pack courtesy of Great Lakes Brewery. Would you, like, are you like Dave where you have no interest in a pumpkin ale? Like, would you drink pumpkin ale? I would pretty much.

Be honest with me. Not really. I mean, I'm not the, like, the shock the, that kind of stuff with the fruity part. I just like a good beer. But I'm also celiac, so I can't really drink beer, although I cheat and I do have beer, if you know what I mean. I do know what you mean. Because I will treat myself every once in a while. I'll risk it all for a really good beer, usually a Guinness.

So it's the, yeah, okay, I was going to say, isn't, and I should, you know, I got to be, this is real talk. So if another beer comes up, I can't stop it. Guinness does not have gluten? Is that what you're allergic to? Oh, no. Oh. Guinness has gluten.

Okay. But I will risk it. Okay, I see. I see. I see. I see. I think, okay, I got you. I got you. I got you. So no Guinness for you, but I will risk it. Okay, I see. I see. I see. I see. I think, okay, I got you. I got you.

So no Guinness for you. I'm sorry. But you can always share that with friends and family. But the pumpkin ale, though, I was there Saturday, and they are completely sold out. Like, I don't know, we have a good, I don't know, nine days before Halloween, but the pumpkin ale is gone. Like, they try to make enough to get them through October, but they don't want to have a lot

left over for November, right? Pumpkin's got an interesting flavor to it, and it seems to be that one flavor that seems to be taking over a little bit. Pumpkin pies, people are obviously aware of, but there's other things that are, pumpkin coffees and stuff like that seem to be absurdly popular. I'm kind of old school. I just, give me a coffee, give me a beer, give me a gin and tonic. Like, just give me, I don't need fancy,

but that's probably an age thing. If you're going to risk it, and we'll get to that celiac in a moment, I want to talk about that. But if you want to risk it, with the Canuck Pale Ale and the Blonde Lager, those are a couple that you'll probably enjoy. But there are some IPAs.

I like a Blonde Lager. I like a good lager, those are a couple that you'll probably enjoy. But there are some IPAs. I like a blonde lager. I like a good lager. I go through seasons. In the summer, I like a lager. In the winter, in the fall, in the winter, I like an ale. It sort of just goes like that. Or maybe Schultz, you will be the beneficiary. We'll see.

So Schultz is coming in. I should tell people, David Schultz. And we're going to talk about kind of how we met because we've met once before. This is our second meeting. But David Schultz is booked, I don't know, for I think next week, I think. So this week,

we're going to talk to you, Kevin, and then Dani Elwell, which is a long time coming because she resigned on the air at CFNY. Wow. She read a resignation letter. And I have it, and I'm going to play it for her,

and we're going to talk about that. But of course then she's involved in this Jazz FM thing. If you hear a commercial for McDonald's coffee, McCafe or whatever they call it, she's the voiceover for the national ads and stuff. She's got some... It's going to be a fascinating chat with Danny, but David Schultz, I think he's next

week or the week after. I cannot honestly remember. But we're going to talk about Hockey Fight in Canada, which will be very interesting for me because Scott Moore was in last week after. I cannot honestly remember. But we're going to talk about Hockey Fight in Canada, which will be very interesting for me because Scott Moore was in last week. So I feel like I'm ready. That conversation, I think, will be enhanced by all the things Scott told me. Have you read Hockey Fight in Canada?

I'm in the middle of Hockey Fight in Canada. It's a really good read. I'm really quite enjoying it. It's actually kind of one-stop shopping for sort of the history of everything that happened before, the Fox News stuff, the glowing puck, and everything that sort of led to that moment. I've just finished the chapter

where basically they scoop TSN. So will the Toronto Star, did the Toronto Star review Hockey Fight in Canada? I will. I try to review all of the books regarding hockey

and the Maple Leafs. I try to do it before Christmas. I don't always. I often will wait for Father's Day and say, you know, these are now available

in the bargain bin for your dad. Right. They're on sale now. These are good books to read. Because I get a whole bunch of them, obviously.

You know, that's what publishers do. And I like to read them. And I don't always get to them before Christmas. So you got the Damien Cox one, right? I haven't got that one yet. Oh, that one's launched this week or something? I don't know.

I got a bunch of notes on that. The launch is Tuesday night. So I'll go to that. And that's about the seven-game series with the Leafs and Kings in 93. But Cox is not a... He does still write for the Star, but he's not on staff anymore, right? No, no.

I guess he's a freelancer officially, right? But he likes to keep his fingers in those pies, and he's got things to say. The Star Sports section, we're much smaller than we used to be, so I think we're pretty happy to have a hockey writer like that chime in twice a week. And he does tennis, of course, too.

Oh, yeah. He loves his tennis. Now, we're all over the place, and we're going to explore all this deeper. But when you review David Schultz's book, do you have to disclose that he's a personal friend? Well, I will do it on my blog, not for the paper. Not for the paper. And it's far more conversational.

And yes, I'll write that I like this guy. So let's tell the people how we met so you firstly uh you uh attended the second toronto mic listener experience so tmlx2 and uh i guess is it schultz or gear joyce or both that you're uh personal friends with both both okay so the uh part of the entertainment that night, obviously there was a band, the Royal Pains. So big ups to the Royal Pains and Al. They were fun. They were great. Yeah. And we also had some stand-up comedies. So

Schultz went first and then Gear Joyce went after David. And you, in fact, you were sitting right beside me. And at the time, I didn't know it was you. It wasn't until later that, oh, Kevin McGrann from the Trump Star. I know that name. I've been reading your stuff forever.

But I was sitting beside you. But you had a video recorder. You were recording the stand-up sets. In fact, thanks to your recording of the sets, I was able to put all the stand-up material in an episode of Toronto Mike. That's awesome. So thank you so much for doing that. Those two guys have been trying to get me. I guess Garrett did it first. He went to the

stand-up comedy course at Second City and then he roped David doing it. And then they're both trying to encourage me to do it, but I'm not quite there yet. Well, if Schultz is there, you're there. Although, okay, now I need your honest opinion. So you were there, front row seats, recording the stand-up sets. And of course,

anybody who wants to hear this, all of it unedited, I can't remember the number, but something like 378 or something, but go find it. It's a recent episode of Toronto Mic'd where I just put all the audio from the video that you took, Kevin. So honestly, I need to know straight up. Do you think David Schultz and or Gear Joyce are funny? Yes, I do. But the funny thing is, it's often the location. So I saw Dave just last week perform the exact same routine at Absolute Comedy, a little bit broader, but the exact same routine.

And he killed. I don't think he necessarily killed at your event, but the same stuff killed at Absolute Comedy, a little bit broader, but the exact same routine, and he killed. I don't think he necessarily killed at your event, but the same stuff killed at Absolute Comedy. Because these are people who purposely put themselves in a room for stand-up, as opposed to, I guess, the Toronto Mic listener experience, where they might be there just because they're listeners and they want to meet people.

Yeah, you're not purposely there for stand-up. So I think when you go to a stand-up club, I have this thing too, and not purposely there for stand-up right so i think when you go to a stand-up club i have this thing too and i go to a stand-up club which is not very often but when i do go i laugh even if it's not great i laugh because i'm there to laugh and i'm sort of like i'm turned on for laughter like my setting is set to laugh and i'll i'll laugh and i i gotta say i laughed a lot because i was listening uh i laughed a lot at David Schultz and Gare Joyce. I hear myself in that recording. They're both funny.

I mean, I came to watch them, right? They're my buddies. I'm going to go support them whenever I can if they're doing their stand-up routine. It doesn't matter where. So I'm in the mood to laugh too, and I agree with you. You go to a stand-up club and then somebody comes out, maybe they're good, not good, and then somebody else gets a few good laughs, and then you just build up your own thing. You're in the mood to laugh too and i agree with you you go to a stand-up club and then somebody somebody comes out maybe they're good not good then somebody else gets a few good laughs and then you just

build up your own thing so when they come out yeah you're in the mood for it and you know it yours was a great show it was very vast and different and there was you know there was the great beer experience the craft beer experience so there was a whole bunch of things going on all at the same time so it was more like a festival than it was a comedy show obviously right exactly exactly but i thought they did a great job. And I noticed, I think because originally Splashin' Boots were going to perform,

and they are famous Toronto children's entertainers, Splashin' Boots, okay? So I did notice a couple of kids in the crowd who I believe were probably there. And Splashin' Boots ended up not appearing at this

because they were in Newfoundland with Alan Doyle, of all people. Because they were at Alan Doyle's house. They were supposed to leave the day before, but Alan needed him an extra night. Anyways, they blew me off for Alan Doyle, essentially. Well, they blew you off for Newfoundland, and I would do the same.

I'm actually very excited. The Leafs are planning to go to Newfoundland for their training camp next year, the way they did Niagara Falls and they've done Halifax. Oh, yeah. I am so all in. And apparently, if you haven't had them on your show, you've got to get Terry Ryan on. year, the way they did Niagara Falls and they've done Halifax. I am so all in. Apparently, if you haven't had him on your show, you've got to get Terry

Ryan on. Apparently, everybody's got to go to Terry's dad's house on a Friday night. That's what happens. That's amazing. He just tells stories and it doesn't matter. Apparently, he's the greatest storyteller and there's

a keg going on in the basement or whatever it is and you're just sitting there laughing the whole night and Terry says you've got to come. That sounds amazing. Stephen Brunt, of course, spends like, I don't know, a third of the year or something in Newfoundland.

He's got a home in Newfoundland and he's there all summer anyway. It just sounds like I've never been. I took a big road trip to Prince Edward Island, and I got to all the provinces, but I never got to Newfoundland. Me too. I've been to every province but Newfoundland.

It takes a long time because you have to have so much time in your vacation. I was on a road trip on a car. You can't just kind of like, you have to go around and up. It's tough. You need a lot of time to get to Newfoundland. My family, my background is all Irish,

so you'd think Newfoundland would be the first province I'd go to, but it looks like it's going it's a lot you need a lot of time to get my family my background is all irish so you think newfoundland be the first province i go to but it looks like it's going to be the last i saw that on the toronto star bio page for uh reporter kevin mcgrann it says that you your specialty is canada and ireland or no something like that oh yeah like where where my geography lessons have taken hold something like that that's right that's right so you're like the uh toronto star they just added that like a week ago. Is it? I got this massive email that we had to fill in the blanks on all of these things. I felt like I should have done like the Brendan Shanahan thing and just lied, but it was called

the Trust Project. So I couldn't really do that. That would be ironic. So yes. So you're friends of David Schultz and Gare Joyce. You were at TMLX too. So thank you for coming. You get a free beer out of that too.

That's awesome. I don't know if your celiac allowed you to. I'll risk it. So before we dive into that, because I have a question about your celiac. Is it a disease? Do I call it celiac disease? Well, I'm kind of in a weird place. It's kind of a long story, but I guess we have time.

So my daughter is celiac. My oldest daughter is celiac. And it's a disease that is hereditary. So that means either me or her mother had it. Sure. And it's a pretty dangerous disease if it goes undiagnosed because basically your body fights gluten and nothing else. And you're exposed to all sorts of different ailments and cancers. So I had these stomach issues and I went to go get myself checked. The first thing you do is a blood test. And they told me, yeah, you have all the markers for celiac disease. So they told me I'm celiac. Right. Then I went for the second thing, which is an endoscopy,

which studies the health of your stomach. And they, and I had a colonoscopy at the same time. And they said, coming out of the anesthesia, they said, we biopsied all over because you could have been celiac for a long time and we'll only call you if there's an issue. So they told me I was celiac coming out of the endoscopy and then they called me like two months later and I'm thinking, oh my God, there's an issue. And they called me back and said, remember that time we said you were celiac? Well, you are celiac, but you're not suffering from the disease. I'm thinking I'm getting like a cancer call here and they're just telling me that I'm not suffering from the disease. I will suffer from it

one day. I'm not suffering from it now. And then I said, well, what about all my stomach issues? Because as soon as I stopped eating wheat, I got better. They said, oh, well then you're intolerant to wheat. Don't eat wheat. So I follow a celiac diet. Gotcha. I am celiac. I carry the marker. Because your daughter is celiac. Yeah, she can't have, like, celiacs can't have, you know, french fries from a pan that fried chicken nuggets. They just can't. It will ruin their stomach. I'm not at that level.

I can have, I can eat it. I choose not to for the benefit of my stomach. Because you're intolerant. I'm intolerant, and it's basically affecting a different part of my stomach, if that makes any sense. That makes sense. But I do risk it from time to time. Right, because you're not suffering from the actual disorder.

I'm not doing long-term damage to myself the way my daughter might. Now, okay, so a question from Brent. He wants to know what gluten-based food you miss the most. But it sounds like you will give yourself a cheat day or something now and then or something. So what I cheat on is cheesy garlic bread.

Oh, yeah. I miss that. I'm pretty good about not risking it all for late-night pizza or hot dogs or anything like that. So I'll cheat on beer every now and then. Sure. Guinness in particular. And my mother's brown bread, Irish bread.

Oh, it's so good. Fried in bacon fat. Oh, my God, with an egg on it. It's the best in the world. But you haven't told your daughter how good it is because she cannot cheat. Well, she and I traveled England in the summer, and we just both did gluten-free the whole time, and it was great. It was awesome.

It was very bonding. I have an Instagram account, Celiac Man, where I sort of promote any place that really treats me well with a gluten-free diet. No, good. Very good.

Everyone should follow. Now, I have a friend who is celiac. Is that how you say it? You're celiac? Okay. So my friend is celiac and the diet, very strict. Like, of course, that's everything is your diet.

And it's very difficult in this world. You eat it a lot. Right, right, right. But then when this predates the fad, but then there was the fad, right? Everybody was quitting gluten, like it was en masse. And I feel like I've been told that basically this is the worst thing that happens to celiacs. It is. Because now that it's a fad,

it's not as strict. Like now that it's not like a life or death kind of deal, now it's like, you know, everything, there's a lot more gluten-free options, but perhaps it's not taken as seriously. It's good in that in grocery stores, there's more gluten-free options for breads and stuff like that and snacks.

It's not so good for restaurants because they don't necessarily take it as seriously as they should. Because I have been asked, is this a choice or is this a diet? And I actually get offended at that because like, I I don't know who, who would ever choose this, but people are choosing it. It's like, yeah. Atkins almost, I guess it's one of these kind of fad diets,

I think. Yeah. But if you're truly celiac, the, the fat of, of gluten, of the gluten free is not good for you in restaurants because the restaurants don't necessarily take it as seriously as they should.

And you can end up doing damage to yourself. Yeah. So you're right. It's best, I guess, to avoid restaurants if you're celiac. it's unfortunate but true well i have a nephew who's uh got a peanut allergy and uh like one of the places they used to go all the time was mcdonald's and he loved mcdonald's and then mcdonald's came out that they couldn't like

promise they were a peanut free i guess it had to do with uh the toppings for one of their like sundaes or whatever they have what do the toppings for one of their Sundays or whatever they have. What do they call them? McFlurries or whatever. So now the poor guy is like eight years old. He can't go to McDonald's anymore. So anyway, it's tough out there. But now, you live in Toronto? Yeah, right downtown. Did you vote yet? Not yet. I actually got to find my voting station.

Actually, you know what? It only started at 10 a.m., so it's like 1027 now. So you couldn't have voted yet. So yeah, today's election day. So I guess a lot of people listening to this episode, I think a lot of people will tune in while the polls are still open. So I think it's open till 8. I think it's like 10 to 8. I think so.

Get out there and vote. You don't have to tell me how you're voting, but I personally don't think there's much of a mayoral race. I think he could win by a 2 to 1 margin, I think, Mr. John Tory. I like Keesmat. I think she's got some great ideas, but I don't think she's going to win. I think Tory's going to win, and people are happy in Toronto with Bland, it appears.

I don't mind John Tori. I've met him quite a few times. I used to appear on his radio show when he was on CFRB. So, I mean, I do have kind of a personal relationship with him. I think he's a smart man. He's a good man, and all of that. I think there are better ideas coming from elsewhere.

I think his greatest strength was that he was not Doug Ford. I'm going back to the 2010 election. But not 2010, sorry. That was a Rob Ford one. What year are we in here? The last election, I think a lot of people voted for John Tory

just to stop Doug Ford from becoming mayor of Toronto. But now that that's not a fear, I think we could do better. But it looks like we won't do better. I think Doug Ford in some way is still the mayor of Toronto. But now that that's not a fear, I think we could do better, but it looks like we won't do better. I think Doug Ford in some way is still the mayor of Toronto, right? I mean, because he's reshaped how the council is.

And I'll be curious to see whether we're a left-leaning or right-leaning city when it's all said and done, because I think Doug Ford has sort of gerrymandered it to the point where it's going to go his direction and not the rest of the direction we really want. Such a strange time, man. Such a strange time.

It's all so bizarre. So get out and vote. If you're listening to this wherever, if you have an election today and you're still listening on election day, get out and vote. What else did I want to ask you about before we do our deep dive? Oh yeah, I wanted to ask you about, because Mark Hebbshire was just here

recording Hebbsy on sports just before you saw him at the door. He had a small part, but you guys have a radio, can you tell me about this radio play that you do of Gary Joyce and David Schultz? Oh, well, it's all Gary Joyce's brainchild. It started, actually,

the Toronto Star approached him, I think, about it. So he'd written this kind of novella about what the world would have been like if the Maple Leafs had won the Stanley Cup every year since 1967 and not no year. So I think the title of it was Every Year a Parade Down Bay Street. Yes.

And it sort of makes fun of sports writers from the past or maybe the present and how full of themselves they can be. And Dave Schultz plays that character, which doesn't require a lot of acting on his part, a guy by the name of Red York. I get to play Milt Dunnell, the great writer from the Toronto Star.

And as I've told this Toronto Star repeatedly in job interviews for internships and all that, I quite honestly, as I'm not sucking up, I quite honestly learned to read by reading the Toronto Star Sports section as a kid. In particular, Milt Dunnell, his thumbnail tales, little small digest, like little notebook items. And so I was tickled to be able to play Milt Dunnell.

Yeah, man. Uncle Milt, as we call him. I read a lot of Milt Dunnell, too. Our house was a Toronto Star house, and this star came every day, and that was my sports section too. The afternoon star. I guess so. I can't remember now.

But yeah, I know that... It was an afternoon paper when we were kids. The first edition didn't come out until 11 a.m. Jim Proudfoot used to go to the game, go to the bar, come in the morning, lay out the paper, and then write his column.

It's a different world, right? Yeah. No internet. Damien Cox has been on a couple of times, but he would talk about working with Milt. So when did you... We're going to get into this soon, but what year did you start working at the Toronto Star?

I started at the Toronto Star in 1999 as a copy editor in the sports department. And I became the Leaf reporter in 2006. What year did Milt finally retire from the Toronto Star? I don't know, but I know I think it was in the early 90s. I used to work for Canadian Press and I'd cover horse racing and I got to know him just a little bit there. I was quite intimidated talking to him. He was an icon to me.

He told, yeah, no, he was an icon. And I think he lived to be 162 years old or something. Amazing. But he told Cox that the modern day comparable, if you're trying to know what kind of a player Bill Barilko was

for the Toronto Maple Leafs, the guy he would compare him to, he said, was John Cordick. This is what Milt did. So that's my, I mean, that's kind of, when you say that to a Leaf fan, they're like, really? Milt said that. But Damien Cox swears that that's what Milt told him. It was probably after Cordick's one good year. Yeah, he did have that one good year, right?

Especially a strong finish that season. I like John Cordick. He wore 27. I always liked players because I was born strong finish that season. I like John Cordy. He wore 27. I always liked because I was born on the 27th. I like the players who wore 27.

But yeah, poor John Cordy. Gone way too soon. But can you tell me, what was Hebsey's role in the play that you guys just did? He played, so the whole idea of it

was that Red York was a sycophant and a Harold Ballard lover and made up stories and did all sorts of things illegally to make sure that the Maple Leafs would always win, like bust unions and stuff like that. And Mark Hemsher played his lawyer.

He can't answer that question. He can't answer that question. So we're on basically a sports talk show at the time, like a roundtable sort of thing, and the lawyer would chime in once in a while. I'm not going to answer that question. So how often do you guys do this? We've just done it the two times.

He's updated it with the John Tavares acquisition and some little jokes. I take it if the Leafs ever actually won a Stanley Cup, that would kind of destroy this whole project, right? I think this project relies on the Leafs having this drought. Yeah, and I think that's why he wanted to do a new version of it, because I think he's worried that it might happen, and that's all over. Yeah, well, now there's a first time in a while, there's a fear.

Well, first time, yeah, and it's been a long time since, maybe we should have won it maybe in 93, but we won't go there right now. So, one more question before we dive in here. I got a tip from Gare Joyce, that you are, One more question before we dive in here. I got a tip from Gare Joyce that you know more about dating apps than any man your age. Would you care to elaborate on that? Well, I'm completely off. I'm taking a break from dating. I've had, as I told Gare, he wants me to do this as a stand-up.

I said, I think I have a routine. I think my midlife crisis has been awesome, is my opening line. Or that'd be the name of my memoir. But yes, I can tell you how they all work and what's good and what's bad. Well, what's the best one? Like to get a good date and how would you define a good date?

I mean, these are heavy questions. I missed, like I kind of, I mean, I was married a long time and then I wasn't married. And that would be kind of when I would probably dive into dating apps, but I very quickly met my current wife. Oh, that's awesome.

I never had, like, I know it sounds, I'm not really complaining here, because this is better for me, I suppose, but I never got the opportunity to experience the dating apps. Like, I miss the dating apps, but I'm always like, even Hepsi, who's currently dating, like, he's sharing some matchmaking stuff, and it's always interesting to kind of live precariously through him, like, as he dates different people. Like, what would be, say,

the best bang for your buck, and how would you define, like, a good... Well, the two that I use the most, and again, I want to repeat, I'm completely off. I'm not seeing anyone at the moment, and I'm completely off because I just need a break,

but Bumble and Tinder, and Tinder were, were, were awesome for meeting people very quickly. Kind of sounds like I kind of like, I mean, obviously I'm not going to do this, but it's kind of neat that you could, you could,

you could meet different people for, I don't know, you mean for coffee or something like, could that be a first? Yeah. You chat a bit, then you meet for coffee. You chat a bit.

I mean, the one problem with some of these, uh, well, anytime you meet someone is. You chat a bit. I mean, the one problem with some of these, anytime you meet someone, is sometimes people just want to text endlessly. And it's like, I get kind of bored with that. I don't have anything to say if I don't actually meet you. I don't know what really is in your world.

So I try to meet as quickly as possible just to see if there's any kind of real personal connection because endless texting is just sort of pointless. And then, you know, usually there's something. And so it will often, it sort of depends on the vibe that you're getting one way, whether it's going to be coffee or a walk or a dinner or something like that.

But you need FaceTime, like literal FaceTime, to know if you have chemistry, right? Yeah. Yeah. And you know right away, right? I would think you would know like within five minutes of a date. Yeah, and I'll be quite honest, I've met women that are now my friends, right?

Like there has been no, I mean, when you get divorced and you move away, you do have, you know, you suddenly have a hole that's not just in the wife position, but a lot of friend positions are now opened up.

And so I've met some people that I still get along with and we'll go out every once in a while. We can be each other's plus one sort of thing in different situations. There's nothing romantic about it. It's just friendship. Yeah. And there's

nothing wrong with that, right? No, of course not. The thing about these dating apps is to be totally, totally honest. There is no point in deceiving tricking yourself into what you saying what you want just to meet them because often they want if you're totally honest and they're totally honest then you know right away that you're in for the same thing now okay not talking friendship here but if you're looking for somebody to date like how important is uh like physical attraction is really important right like so uh

do you ever have like uh i would imagine that someone's using a picture on their thing that maybe that picture is 15 years old you know what i mean like like like you're you haven't i haven't come across that i don't know i'm only dreaming this stuff what do i know yeah i haven't i haven't experienced that i mean they are often the most flattering pictures oh sure like yeah but no for the most part it's the person has been the person. So you haven't had one like where, oh, very attractive in the photo and then you're like, yikes,

who is this person? That hasn't happened. Well, I did meet one who was very attractive from the waist up and that's what you saw on her picture, but from the waist down, she was a completely different person. Yeah, okay.

Yeah, you got to show off your best assets as they say for sure. Oh, man, when you do return to online off your best assets, as they say, for sure. Oh, man, when you do return to online dating, I'll live precariously through you, if that's okay with you. I have stories to tell, but I'm not quite prepared to tell them yet. All right. Well, that ends this episode. I'm just kidding. Okay, great. Let's hear from... Okay, there's a... It's funny, the Raptors. I was just talking... I'm coming off the sports talk of Hep C. We'll get into more of this mainly Leaf stuff later with you. But Raptors, hell of a start.

No Kawhi Leonard in Washington and still come out on the winning end. So they're 3-0. And I say that because Brian Gerstein, who is a real estate sales representative with PSR Brokerage, on Twitter, he's Raptors devotee. He is a massive Raptors fan, and he's as excited as anyone about the prospects this season. And I should tell people how to reach him by phone because I'm about to play Brian's question for you, Kevin,

and he forgot to put his phone number in there. So Brian is 416-873-0292. If you're planning to buy and or sell in the next six months, you really should chat with Brian. Um, I'm all choked up over it. That's how passionate I am about this property in the six.com. If you're currently,

uh, driving or you're on your bike ride or running and you can't jot down the number, go to property in the six.com to find out how to contact Brian, but contact Brian and Kevin, let's listen in on Brian's question for you. Propertyinthe6.com Hi, Kevin.

Brian Gerstein here, sales representative with PSR Brokerage and proud sponsor of Toronto Mike's. I am adding a programming note. I'm talking Toronto real estate with Humble & Fred Tuesday morning at 8 a.m. You can listen live on Funny 820 a.m. or after on HumbleAndFredRadio.com. I am looking forward to sharing my craziest real estate experience

for the first time in public. It is not to be missed. Kevin, the Jays are once again heading to Montreal to play Milwaukee in a couple of weeknight exhibition games. Word has it that a lot of Expos fans are upset that they are not on the weekend and that they are not getting

a regular season series instead. Even with Vlad Jr. there again, should attendance drop, is this sending the wrong message to the Commissioner and will it hurt their chances of getting a big league team? What do you think of this? He's from Montreal.

That's a key part of that story. He's a diehard Expos fan. My other hobby is real estate. Is that right? Oh, yeah. I really follow the Toronto real estate market closely, so I'm going to listen to that. And he's the, yeah, so he's the honest, he's the most honest real estate sales representative

I've ever had the pleasure of talking to. And yeah, well, before you answer the expose question, he did allude to, yeah, so Humble and Fred. So Humble and Fred were on this show recently and then they heard the promo for Property in the Six and they, like yourself, they're fascinated with Toronto real estate. As a divorced male and you do the separation and then like yourself they're fascinated with toronto as a divorced male and

you do through the separation and then i get my lump sum of money as my wife basically bought me out of the marriage which is kind of neat it's like you got to get right back into the market you cannot be out of this market for any length of time because the prices got stupid and that's exactly what happened so i pretty much got lucky investment wise um but I've been following the market for like a year and a half until while we waited on the separation agreement to come final and then just jump in. And basically, my condo has gone up, I don't know, ridiculous sums of money.

I can imagine. Not that I want to sell, but... No, but it's still... You got to stay on top of it. If you own property in this city or want to, you just got to be on top of that on those waves. So I guess Humble and Fred heard Brian Gerstein's question and then the property in the six.

And they love that whole like concept. And I think, yeah, I think tomorrow on Humble and Fred, Brian's, I even told Brian, so Brian and I were chatting, I said, make sure they play your jingle. He's got that jingle. Like make sure Humble and Fred play your jingle before you talk. Like your introductory property in the six dot com, which I totally

find very catchy. That's on Humble and Fred tomorrow. Good luck Brian on your Humble and Fred debut. Now let's address his Expos question. Do you have any thoughts on this? I don't think a handful of fans being upset that they're not getting a regular season series

is really going to affect Montreal's future one way or another. If there's money there and a team wants to move, that's what's going to happen. I applaud the Blue Jays for keeping the pulse going in Montreal. It bothers me no end that Major League Baseball

really killed baseball in Montreal. Not Montreal fans, not the Expos. Major League Baseball, it was a self-inflicted wound. Montreal should have won the World Series in 1994. I sort of consider them the best team in baseball. They were one of the best ever. It was just a tragedy and I think the Blue Jays are doing as much as they can to keep that pulse going there and I hope one day the Tampa Bay Rays move.

Right. Now, I don't know day the Tampa Bay Rays move. Right. Now, I don't know why they would expect a regular season. I didn't even know this was a thing. Like, why would they expect a regular season? Well, they are Canadian, and the N8, they follow hockey, and the hockey plays regular season games in Europe, so I suppose, and the Blue Jays, if I remember correctly, did the Blue Jays play in Puerto Rico for a bit? No, the Expos played in Puerto Rico for a bit.

So they're used to that sort of thing, I suppose. But I think it's a bad idea for a major league sport to play regular season games somewhere other than where the game is played. And hockey did do those neutral site games years ago when they played a

84 game schedule. Now, I do see kind of having a gripe. If I were a big Montreal baseball fan, it's better to have a weekend series. If you can have a couple of Jays games with Vlad Guerrero Jr. and everything, I guess it's better Friday and Saturday

or Saturday, Sunday, whatever, weeknight. But I would wonder if the crowd size is significantly smaller for whatever reason. I don't think that would have a major effect on the prospects of a team returning to Montreal, but you never know. I don't know. Maybe, but again, if a team's willing to move

and they're willing to build a stadium and own it and spend, goodness gracious, what's a baseball team going to go for? $1.5 billion? I don't know. Yeah, that's a lot of money. Do you have a favorite expo of all time? Are you a baseball team going to go for 1.5 billion. I don't know. Yeah. That's a lot of money. Do you have a favorite expo of all time?

Are you a baseball fan? I used to, my first job really covering sports was covering the Blue Jays. So yeah. And that was for the Canadian press, right?

Yeah. I actually grew up more from the time the Blue Jays arrived in 77 until basically the lockout. The cost of World Series.

Baseball was probably my favorite sport. I've come back to it in recent years, but I was certainly a huge Blue Jays guy. Not so much the X-Bows. They were more my, the rival. And I guess Gary Carter, I suppose, is Tim Raines, another one. He was so fast.

And I always liked Delano DeShields because Delano DeShields was the rookie of the year. That's a pretty funny line from Rich Griffin. But yeah, I was more an American League guy anyway. Although I prefer the National League rules. Interesting. Well, here's a guy. I got to play this.

Hi, I'm George Bell. You listen to Toronto Mike. So that's my, you know, I'm George Bell. You listen to Toronto Mike. So that's my, you know, I'm most proud of that two-second clip. He was my favorite player growing up was George Bell. It was his birthday yesterday. I want to say 59. Wow.

Does that sound right? Yeah. Following those Blue Jays, I was a kid then. So George Bell is five years, six years older than me. And watching them from around 83, when they started to get good, through to 93, how they did it, I kind of equate that experience to what Leaf fans are going through now. Because they're seeing a bunch of people come up

and sort of figure it out. I remember when Dave Steeb came up and Tony Fernandez came up and they suddenly got really good and they were looking for pieces. They couldn't find a reliever. They brought in Tom Cottle or Bill Cottle. He was supposed to

put them over the top and he didn't. Then the guy they get from Texas for nothing, Tom Hanke, is the guy. You've got to get lucky. You have the best laid plans. It doesn't always work, but then you get lucky and then you have something. And Tom Henke was one of the great relievers of the game for about eight years.

And they had him. And to watch, to be a young fan, seeing the players you have come together and then have success and then have to go because you need a better player, right? So for... Willie Upshaw or whatever. Willie Upshaw's got to go. Fred McGriff's got to go because you need a better player, right? Willie Epsha or whatever. Willie Epsha's got to go.

Fred McGriff's got to go. But you're bringing in Joe Carter. You're bringing in Roberto Alomar. And then you really become something in the development program. So you really buy in. You're really passionate about those guys because you've seen them grow up and you've grown up with them. And I think young Leaf fans are doing that now. 12-year-olds, 14-year-olds are watching

Austin Matthews and Mitch Marner, and that's why they're so frustrated with William Nylander right now, because they just want to see these guys be so good. I think this week, in fact, I'm certain this week is the, maybe tonight actually, maybe tonight or tomorrow night, is the 25th anniversary of

Joe Carter touching them all. Touching them all, Joe. 25 years. Were you at that game? I covered that game, yeah. I remember it was game six, and there was three of us covering it. So Steve McAllister was our lead writer, Doug Smith was the second guy,

and I was the third guy. And so I was doing the Phillies room. So I was writing about the Phillies for the Canadian audience, the Canadian perspective on this Phillies room. And so I was writing about the Phillies for the Canadian audience, like the Blue Jays, the Canadian perspective on this Phillies team. And I remember having, CP, you have to have things right.

As soon as the game is over, you got to press button. So I had my Phillies force game seven story ready to go. Sure. Right. You know, because they were bringing out Mitch Williams.

He was their closer. He was going to get it done. It was, it was, it wrote itself. It was, there's a whole thing to be done on great sports stories that never got, got out of the Word document because we just had to kill him. And as soon as Joe hit that thing,

I pressed the command for me at the time was CLS, was clear screen. I wrote CLS and I had to start typing again. And then after the game, there's a big, you know, in the visitors dugout, there's a big, big scrum around Mitch Williams and he's just sitting there with a towel over his head, head down. And again, I'm the wire writer, so I got to be fast, right? I can't wait.

So who's going to ask the first question? Normally in these situations, you let the beat writers from Philadelphia ask the question, let them go first, but nobody was asking the question, so I asked the first question. Oh, wow. Yeah. Well, the beauty of sports writers is we can ask really dumb questions and athletes play along.

What question would you have asked? Well, I would ask, he shakes off Dalton. Dalton calls for a pitch, Darren Dalton, and Mitch shakes it off. I believe this is the pitch just before he throws that inside fastball or whatever.

Joe literally just kind of jerks. And that hit, by the way, an aside is that, and I heard somebody recently kind of revisit this, but often, Joe, if that's swing, it's foul. I think the way he kind of, the way he swings at that inside pitch is that ball goes foul

and somehow it stayed fair here. But I would ask him about, I don't know if you get shot for this or what. I've never been in a scrum. But I'd ask him about shaking off Dalton's pitch there. That's what I might ask him. That's a good question. Thank you. I should be in these scrums.

I didn't. I asked. It wasn't even a question. It was sort of a question, sort of asked with an intonation at the end. Yeah. And it was really like, I guess you want that, if you could, you'd want that pitch back. Which is similar to my question, but different. And, you know, it's not the greatest question in the world, but it got him rolling.

And thank God Mitch Williams was such a lovely human being. He said, yeah, well, I can't do that now. It was. And then he went on and he explained what was going on. And, you know, I didn't start with the how do you feel or whatever. Let's talk about the pitch and the play. Right. It was my idea.

And it just got him going on the scrum. And it's like a small, very small claim to fame. Ask the first question. No, that is a big claim. That's very cool. You got to ask something. You don't want to be an idiot, and you want to be respectful. Just try to make it conversational.

Remind me, was it Curt Schilling who had the towel over his head in that ninth inning? Everybody in Philadelphia did, right? I always picture Curt Schilling, though, who had just pitched that gem in game five. Was it Curt Schilling? He pitched the gem in game five, right, to force the game six.

But, man, that series was crazy pitched the jam in game five, right, to force the game six. But man, that series was crazy because the game before that jam he pitched, which I think was a shutout, 3-0 or something, was that 15-14 thing. With Todd Stoudemire

getting a bloody chin trying to steal second. What a series. But man, I could talk about that, Jason. In fact, we will come back to this. But a lot of people on

the show, a surprising number of people were at that game when Joe... You know, you're in the press box. You're not allowed to cheer, right? This is a code amongst... Did any part of you pump a fist when Joe hit it out? I'm always... So the code of ethics among sports writers in North America

is there's no cheering in the press box. However, and I have stories from covering Olympics and just actually watching independent journalists root for their teams blindly and stuff like that, which is okay. That's their culture. It's different. You are allowed to root for your story. So if my story is way better if X happens rather than Y, I'm rooting for that because it's less work or it's a better narrative or whatever it is, I'm rooting for that.

And I also do, I don't necessarily, I don't root for the home team, but I do want the fans to feel good. The fans are my readers and I want them to have a positive experience. And I know from the numbers, you knew it in the day when you sold more newspapers and you know it today with the clicks, a good team sells more than a bad team. For sure. So from those perspectives, I want the home teams to have success.

I don't necessarily root for them. I don't have a paid interest in it, but I know that it's better for everybody around in the city if they win. So, okay, I see you're rooting. It says a little, you found yourself a loophole here, Kevin. You root for the story, which is a little different than rooting for the Blue Jays,

even though it's the exact same thing, but I digress. So we're going to get you to the Canadian press, but first I want to just say that if anybody, I talked to you if you're going to buy and or sell in the GTA in the next six months, you're calling Brian, but if you're going to buy and or sell in the GTA in the next six months. You're calling Brian. But if you're going to work on your home that you own, you need some architectural design, interior design, or turnkey construction services, you need to talk to Census Design and Build.

So Census Design and Build can be reached at 416-931-1422 or go to censusdesignbuild.ca and go there today and schedule your zoning and cost project feasibility study. That's what you got to do. Now, if you want 10 bucks right now and you want a really cool app where you pay all your bills and get rewarded for doing so, I swear by the Paytm app. I use it. I straight up use it. Kevin will tell you, I'm not reading anything here. This is from the heart. I pay all my bills with the Paytm app because I can pay all of my bills with my MasterCard, which gets me points I can use for free groceries.

And then when I need to pay that MasterCard bill, it's very easy through Paytm to then extract that money from my bank account, which is linked to it. So setting it up is really easy. You go to paytm.ca and here's the kicker. When you make your first bill payment with your paytm app, use the promo code Toronto Mike, all one word, and they will give you $10 right away. They call it paytm cash, but you can use that $10 and paytm cash to pay another bill,

or you can go to the reward section and buy like a gift card like they have gift all the gift cards you can imagine they're from like you go to indigo and then go buy david schultz's book with that ten dollars that they gave you so uh yeah go to paytm.ca and use their fine app but make sure you use the promo code toronto mike when you make that first bill payment all right kevin uh how do you end up at the Canadian Press in, I guess, 1989? Well, funny, I was just in 88. I graduated from

Western's Journalism School and on the weekend it was homecoming and we had our 30th anniversary party. We had the pre-union on Friday, the homecoming,

and then a post-union on Sunday. It was a pretty awesome weekend. So I came out of journalism school. I worked a little bit at the Globe as an internship and Kitchener Records as an internship,

and I got on as CP as an editorial assistant. When the time came for an actual reporting job, there were three openings and there were three applicants. One was an opening for a reporter in Edmonton, and there was an applicant who lived in Edmonton. One was for a full-time copy editor and there was a guy that just absolutely loved editing copy and didn't want to report a day in his life.

And then there was an opening for a sports writer and there was me. So I said, I'll go for that one. And I succeeded in the interview. They tell me that I had the boldest statement of anybody in an interview. They said, why do you want to be a sports writer at Canadian Press?

And I said, I want to see the world and have somebody else pay for it. Oh, which is amazing, Press. And I said, I want to see the world and have somebody else pay for it. Oh, which is amazing. Yeah. And so I started. Ross Hopkins was my sports editor. Patty Tasco was sort of the boss who sort of approved me. And, you know, I went all over.

CP is amazing. It operates on a shoestring, but it does really amazing work. They sent me to Cuba for the Pan Am Games. I went to Europe with, remember the 94 lockout, the Gretzky tour? Yeah, absolutely. So I was on the plane with Gretzky and the players doing all of that in Scandinavia and Germany, Finland. So that was kind of fun.

Finland. So that was kind of fun. So sort of, and then I started more or less, I was, CP, at those days, you kind of did a little bit of everything. If you ever have Pierre Lebrun on this broadcast, I started Pierre Lebrun on his way of being a hockey writer. Would you put in a word? I would like that, Pierre, on this show.

Come on. But yeah, I gave him his first assignment covering hockey. He interviewed Mario Lemieux in French, because Pierre speaks both, and Mario really appreciated that. But yeah, I gave him his first assignment covering hockey. He interviewed Mario Lemieux in French because Pierre speaks both. And Mario really appreciated that. But you speak French. Don't you speak French? Je parle français un peu. They put it on there.

I said, I'm not bilingual, but I can get by. Like in a cab, I can tell them where to go. I don't know. The star might be stretching that a bit then. Maybe I get them to take it down because if I ever really get challenged. I can speak, well, I can speak Parisian French. It sounds like you're speaking

grade nine French, actually. Je parle français. J'aime le poutine. That's right. But that's, I mean, by the way, a recent episode of Toronto Mic had Gregory Strong.

Oh, I listened to that one, yeah. Yeah, he kicked out the jams. He got, by the way, I need to ask you this before I forget to ask you this. Did you listen to the Scott Moore episode of Tron away? I did not listen to the Scott Moore. I will, though, because I do

want to interview him. It was our own exit interview with him and the kind of stuff that he's accomplished. Okay, so Greg Moore left my basement last week. I think it was Tuesday morning. He was here. 80 minutes. I asked him a bunch of stuff. He was pretty forthcoming. Very interesting discussion. I hope you listen. But then he left me to go back to his office because he had a meeting with Gregory Strong

scheduled in his book. And Gregory Strong was going to interview him for a Canadian press article, which I have not yet read. But Hebsey was over this morning. Hebsey stirring the pot. Hebsey let me know. He goes, you need to listen to, you need to read this Gregory Strong article. He goes, I think Gregory Strong, oh, am I allowed to say this? I'm recording this, but he thought perhaps Gregory Strong was influenced, I'll soften it a bit, influenced by my interview with Scott Moore. That's just good research then. Right, right, right. Yeah, that's right. No citation though. That's okay. But I want to read that. I also, by the way, I don't think that happened. I think probably because he left me for Gregory, all the things we talked about came out the same way. Right.

You know what I mean? Like he had like a dress rehearsal or whatever. So I look forward to reading that. Lance Hornby and I got John Tavares alone after a game once and we asked him a bunch of these questions and then the big scrum came and he answered the questions the exact same way. It was like, even like small little references to, you know, whatever and Lance and I just kind of went, okay. And I believe that's what happened here because Mark is like, well, he talked about retiring and his dad

and he said it the same way he said it on your show and I said, well, because he probably came from me and he just said it the same way and he said it again show. And I said, well, because he probably came from me, and he just said it the same way, and he said it again. So anyway, I look forward to reading that from Gregory Strong. But okay, so you're at the Canadian Press. And so you mentioned you were covering the Blue Jays. So tell me, what Toronto stuff did you cover? Baseball was your go-to?

Baseball was my go-to. And I also did a fair bit of the Argos and a fair bit of the Leafs. And that's the John Candy era, right? The John Candy, Rocket Ismail, and, well, I guess Marvin Graves was the quarterback that I covered the most, which no one will remember. That's right.

I'm trying to remember. Who was the big quarterback when they won the Great Cup with Rocket Ishmael? Was it Matt Dunnegan? Yeah, it was Dunnegan. I think it was Dunnegan. Okay. Because I remember the last year of Rocket, I believe, was Ricky Foggy. I think Foggy was, as I recall.

Because I was watching something, I think the Junos or something, and Rocket Ishmael was doing a rap with Love and Sass. Do you remember Love and Sass? Okay, right? And I still, like, it's funny how the things that get stuck in your head, but I'm just watching this live, and then there's Rocket rapping,

and he talked about, he closes with this, and I'm not going to do it justice because I'm a terrible rapper, although I rap a lot in the shower, but Ricky Foggy, hold that pass because I'm on the mic with love and sass. I've only saw it the one time live. And here I am, I don't know how many years later, probably 27 years later, whatever it is, 20 whatever. It's still stuck in my head is this little rhyme, this rap that Rocket Ishmael did on whatever it was I was watching. So there you go. So that's how I always remember when before Rocket leaves,

I guess before he went to the NFL, I guess, Ricky Foggy was his quarterback. So I digress. Okay, this is not about me. Come on, Mike. This is about Kevin here. So by the way, you know, that you earlier, like way earlier, you talked about the Jays from 83 to 93.

That's probably the decade I watched, listened to the most Blue Jays baseball. I actually discovered my love of baseball in 83, the summer of 83. And of course, up into the lockout where Joe touches them all. That is really, in my opinion, the greatest decade of any Toronto team. That was just amazing.

Pretty much of our lifetime, really. Really, it was. It helps that they won. Back to back. I mean, the Argos would win. They used to be a bigger deal, obviously, than they are now. They would win, but then the next year they'd be crap. And there was only eight teams or whatever. There was never any consistency, right? The Edmonton Eskimos

were a dynasty. Calgary's a dynasty. The Argos, they would have a good year, and then they'd have three crappy years, and then they'd have whatever. But yeah, those Blue Jays years were really something special. Do you remember in 83? So they were in first place pretty much the whole summer, and then they went into Baltimore,

and the guy picked them off three in a row in the ninth inning or something like that. The reliever picked off three guys on first base, and that was pretty much the end until... How many games back did we finish 83? Because that was the Cal Ripken, Eddie Murphy, Eddie Murray, sorry, hey Murphy, that's another guy. Eddie Murray, Cal Ripken

team, right? Baltimore. They won the pennant in 83? Yeah, they won the pennant. By the way, there was a stretch. Fun fact while we're here is where we all, I think it was like all, whatever it was, five or six teams in AL East or whatever, a different team won each year, right? Because Detroit wins in 84,

we win in 85. Detroit gets off 35-5. Unbelievable. The Blue Jays were the second best team, but they were never within striking distance. Although we probably, I don't know, weren't we within like four games at the end of the season? But they were done by July.

There was no catching them. That was 35-5. Amazing start by the Blue Jays. But 83, I think, was Baltimore. I want to get this right. I probably won't. But 82 was 82. Did Cleveland win in that stretch, actually?

Was Cleveland? I don't think Cleveland ever. No, they weren't in it. In 82, the Blue Jays, I think 82 was the first year the Blue Jays didn't finish dead last. I think they finished tied with Cleveland for sixth. And who won the pennant in 82? Do you remember? Milwaukee?

I'm going to guess Oakland. No, who won the pennant in 82? Do you remember? Was it Milwaukee? I'm going to guess I'm going to guess Oakland because Billy. No, the AL East pennant. Oh, AL East. Oh, maybe Milwaukee?

I don't know. But I just remember we all took turns winning it. The Yankees won in 81 or 80 or something. But anyway, I'm all over the place here

except to say that exciting time and then the Jays finally win that pennant in 1985. Yeah. So yeah, you got to cover back-to-back World Series, which was fantastic, some Argos games, but at some point, you end up at the Toronto Star. Well, I left the CP Sports Department in 96 for news,

and then in 99, the Star hired me as a copy editor. And I knew the opportunities at the Star were greater than Canadian Press, which is a pretty small shop right on a tight budget. And so I went to the Star. I did some writing for them.

I did some TV criticism, that kind of stuff, nothing really big. And then I went to, I became an editor for a bit. And then i was the stars transportation reporter from 2002 till 2006 oh wow all the entire time i pined to cover sports and i remember having this conversation with my then wife how much i loved being the

transportation reporter like my stuff they they it was wide open i mean this city and and transportation stories go transit Transit, the TTC, Expressways, the 407 was a big deal. I was on the front page all the time. I was kind of setting the agenda. The whole SARS concert thing where TTC says take a hike,

and everybody had to walk because the TTC didn't have enough buses for everybody. That was me breaking that story. I had so many good stories. I said to my then wife, there's only one job I would leave this for, and that's to be the hockey writer of the Toronto Star.

And the next day, Ken Campbell quit. Oh my God. And they basically said, Kev, this job's yours, so come on back. And that's 06, 2006? That's the summer of 06, yeah. And remind me, I know in 04, that's the last time the Leafs won a playoff series,

was 2004 with Ed Belfort. We beat the Senators in 2007. And they thought they were a cup team. They really did think they were a cup team, right? Because I think that they brought Brian Leach in. Brian Leach had one more year in his contract. Sounds about right. But then they did not play that season,

so they lost Brian. They basically played 14 games for them or something like that. They had a really good assembly of talent, and then they lost to a Philadelphia team, and they were all stunned. Right, Jeremy Roenick on that team, I remember. Yeah, so that's funny. That 0-4 is the last time the Leafs won a playoff round,

which is kind of incredible when you think about it. So you came at the right time. Kevin, it's all your fault, actually, if I do the math here. You've never covered a a leafs uh playoff uh round victory in your uh since you started covering i've covered some some incredible collapses though yeah i bet yeah that's right that's right so um who else so you've been covering the leafs for the toronto star since 2006 and of course you're now and now course, now the timing's perfect now. Now you're in the right spot

because if you're rooting for a good story, well, the Shanna plan is sort of, and I'm biased because he went to my high school and he's a mimical boy and all these things. I like him anyways. But as he drew the Shanna plan on the board, it is coming to fruition sort of the way it was planned. It's remarkable because I

think any Leaf fan could have told the Maple Leafs from about 1980 on, this is what you have to do. And I think that's the real frustration with Brian Burke because everybody was primed for

Burke to come in and shake things up and then kind of rushed it with the Kessel trade and the Funnuff trade. Like, what are you doing here? And then it's taken 50 years for them

to figure out that, oh, you know what? You have to really build through the draft and get a deep pool of prospects before you can really do anything. Well, you've got to scorch the earth, as you say. I mean, the only way we got us, and of course there's a lottery system. See, this is not, it's not like the good old days when we could have tanked and got Mario or something like that.

There's a risk involved with tanking. Now, for sure. Right, big tanks. There's a risk involved with tanking. Now for sure. Right, big time because there's a lottery season. In fact, I heard a general manager say this. It's not my source. I can't tell you. It was another reporter who said one of the reasons you don't see offer sheets is because if they don't think they're actually a playoff team,

they don't want to be the guy that gave up a first-round pick that ended up winning the lottery for an older player. It's another thing they have to think about on an offer sheet. Reminds me, so Zeisberger was in last week, maybe? Maybe two weeks ago.

We were talking about the Tom Curvers trade. The big fear we all had all season was we just traded Eric Lindros for Tom Curvers. Turns out they traded Scott Niedermeyer. trade. The big fear we all had all season was we just traded Eric Lindros for Tom Curvers. Turns out they traded Scott Niedermeyer, but it's kind of the same difference. I feel like we would have butchered

that, though. Somehow we would have drafted somebody else second. The thing is, they would have got Lindros because if you remember, if you go back through the trades, the Quebec Nordiques were the worst team, but only because they kept sending care packages to the Maple Leafs. Please finish ahead of us. We have all these

players. Take our good players and win a couple of games. Man, a good thing they brought in that lottery system actually. That was terrible. Anyway, we scorched the earth. You needed a bit of luck. We got Austin Matthews through a lottery. Avi got luck in the lottery

to get the first pick. The John Tavares signing, everything's kind of aligned a lottery. We got Luck in the lottery to get the first pick. And I mean, the John Tavares signing, everything's kind of aligned right now. And we're speaking, we should tell people if they're listening later, on the heels of a couple of disappointing games because we all, in early small sample size, we all got pretty used to four or five goals a game.

And then suddenly, one goal in two games. Like, where did the goals go? But again, very small sample size. We're going to get into the Leafs a bit later. I want to ask you about the Toronto Star. Right now, can you remind me who else is covering sports for the

Toronto Star right now? All the sports? I do the Leafs. Doug Smith does the Raptors. Rich Griffin and Laura Armstrong do the Blue Jays. Bruce Arthur is kind of our main columnist. Rosie chips in on kind of baseball and hockey and some other sports like tennis. Right.

Dave Fescheck does mostly hockey, but a lot of basketball. Morgan Campbell is kind of like our big picture. He did some stuff on eSports. He did some stuff on e-sports. He does some stuff on, on, uh, minorities in sports, that kind of stuff. Uh, Laura Armstrong does a little bit more than just baseball. She does TFC and she backs up Doug on basketball. Mark Zawinski is probably our best generalist.

He primarily backs me up on hockey and backs up on basketball. He played double A ball at East York and he was roommates with J.P. Ricciardi and didn't do him a world of good at all. Ricciardi, I guess he didn't like him. Is that where the butlers came from? Yeah, the butlers out of that. They were out of that program too.

Remember, Rob's got the World Series ring, right? Okay, that's great uh so okay that roster which sounds i mean in 20 uh what are we in now 2018 it sounds kind of impressive but just for fun like what were the numbers like when you started uh like in 1990 at the star like well i'll put it in perspective for you so um when the blue jays went to the world series in atlanta in 1992 i was talking to dave perkins i wasn't at the star then but when they went to the World Series in Atlanta in 1992, I was talking to Dave Perkins. I wasn't at the start then, but when they went to Atlanta,

they sent 22 people. Oh, my God. 22, including a darkroom editor. Yeah, that's the kind of perspective I was looking for here. We don't have 22 people in the sports department now. They sent 22 people to cover two games. If, hypothetically speaking, well, I guess we don't have

to be hypothetical. Like, how many, if the Jays, this is not possible, but if the Jays made the World Series this year, if it was the Jays versus Los Angeles,

if you had to guess, how many people do you think the star would have sent to Los Angeles? Two or three. That would have been it. Wow. Okay, so...

But that's... Like, the world has changed so much, right? I mean, we don't have as much space in the paper, and I don't know. So can we talk about that? I mean, this is... Let's talk about that. So the newspaper industry...

And the funny thing is, I spend a lot of time... I'm doing a little work for a software company that's at One Young Street. Like, I'm there quite a bit in meetings and I'm writing case studies there.. I'm there quite a bit in meetings and case studies. So I'm there quite a bit. The

Toronto Star Building, if you're not from around here. Great address, 1 Young. It's going to be, I saw the pictures or whatever, it's going to be like a whole little, like a city. It's going to be massive. It's going to be a monster. It's crazy. It'd be welcome down there because they kind of screwed up, in my mind, the whole Queens Quay. It's not as good a monster. It's crazy. It'd be welcome down there because they kind of screwed up, in my mind,

the whole Queens Quay. It's not as good as it could be. This has a chance to kind of fix that. Well, the first step in fixing it was to get rid of Captain John. Which, yeah, I was there to say goodbye. But you've got to keep Alexandros.

That's the best souvlaki in the city. Is that right? Oh, it's awesome. By the way, how often did you have to go into the... Because you work pretty much remotely, I would guess. Yeah, kind of on a voluntary basis. I go just to say hi to people.

If I go in there to work, I don't get any work done because there's just too many people to talk to. I'm pretty chatty and I just never get any work done. So I like to work in my home or the rink or wherever I am. Sure, I can imagine. Now, Doug Smith, by the way, told me he was enthusiastic about coming on Toronto Mic'd. Smith is awesome. Yeah, and I wanted to talk to him.

For sure, I want to talk to him, of course. Can't go way back. We worked at CP together. Is that right? Yeah. And I know he's recovered nicely from the heart attack, right? It's good to see, yeah. It's a scary moment, but he's back at it.

This is all to say that when I followed up with Doug to say, okay? It's good to see, yeah. It was a scary moment, but he's back at it. This is all to say that when I followed up with Doug to say, okay, let's schedule your appearance, he went quiet on me. I try not to be too annoying. Problem, because he did enthusiastically say

he wanted to come on. And I know he just did like a thing on Reddit. So he's ready to chat about all this stuff. Well, to be fair to him, at the beginning of the season, training camp at the beginning

of the season is a really, really tough time in both basketball and hockey, and I imagine the other sports too. And much like the Leafs, where it's, like I always say, the covered, the Leafs, this is bananas right now,

like the amount of focus this city has on the Maple Leafs. But I mean, quietly, the Raptors have the best team they've ever had on paper, and they have a superstar in Kawhi Leonard. So there's, I can imagine. I'll tell you this much.

I am not a basketball guy by any stretch of the imagination. I'm watching these guys because I want to know. I think this team could be special. I think you might be right because our nemesis moved to LA. So it kind of. The East is open. It's Boston and us look like the best two teams in the East right now. And we had a game two means nothing.

I know this. But it was fun to watch us go toe-to-toe with the Celtics and come out on the way. Yeah, it matters in the tiebreaker. Yeah, that's right. That's right. That's right. So let's talk about the newspaper industry, though. So Toronto Star specifically, I know you tried a paywall,

and then you decided to throw a lot of money at StarTouch. I love StarTouch. Oh, my God. Are you being serious? I loved it. It was amazing. I'm absolutely serious. Because you're a tablet guy?

I am a tablet guy. Well, StarTouch turned me into a tablet guy. I wasn't a tablet guy before. I didn't have a tablet. The star gave us tablets and now I love my tablet. wasn't a tablet guy before. I didn't have a tablet. The star gave us tablets and now I love my tablet. I thought it was a fantastic way

to tell stories. It was interactive and fun and we did a number of things wrong and that's why it failed. One of the things we did wrong is we threw too much at people all at once because we knew La Presse had done it and

here's all the toys. When La Presse rolled it out, they started one toy at a time so people could learn it. And we just threw a bunch of stuff out at the same time. That was a big mistake. The other mistake is,

I don't know if you ever heard this, but it's the truth. I didn't know this, but we had an app before StarTouch. It had 40,000 subscribers on it. When we started StarTouch, It had 40,000 subscribers on it. When we started StarTouch, we just killed that app and didn't migrate those 40,000

over. We didn't say, here's the new app, update your thing. We just said goodbye to 40,000 people and we never got up to 40,000. We could have started at 40,000 and got to 60 or 70,000. So I'm assuming the app was basically the stuff that was online but in a

mobile-friendly format. But you have 40,000 people who are basically wanting to put your content on their smartphone. On their tablet, they would have got that little dot, update now, and we would have had way more subscribers to it from the beginning. The guy that

made the decision not to update and just to go separate, he got fired. Fascinating. Because we lost, whatever, $30 million.

Well, that's it. So much money was spent. Now, we talked about StarTouch a lot. I do quarterly episodes of a guy named Mark Weisblatt who has an email newsletter called 1236.

And we talk a lot about StarTouch, etc. Now, my personal frustration was that I don't own it. I do everything on my Android phone or my laptop. That's where I kind of do everything. I do, I'm pointing to this, no one can see it but you, but I have a tablet for this show, but it runs Windows, okay?

So I basically don't own anything or use anything that star touch would work on like so to me i was basically i was blocked out of it i kept wanting it to have something that would go onto my laptop well everybody at the time wanted something to be on the phone and i that a big mistake that we were kind of really really late to the mobile market that might have been the death now when i I think about it. Because you have something for tablet only. And not just iOS, right? But it was also Android, right?

So either or. Yeah, I think I worked on both. Two big platforms. But tablet. So me and my Android phone, I was unable to install and use. Yeah, I think the future is on the handheld. The future is mobile. The future is either really short reads

or really, really long reads. Nothing in between. Right. Yeah. It's a lot of cash. But I loved it. And I actually owed a great deal of, I think I grew as a journalist

trying to find ways to tell stories in a different way. And I kind of were sort of, I'm employing some of them in my reporting these days. Okay. Rather than write straight game stories or whatever, just alternative story formats is what we call them. But they're a little bit more interactive,

you know, small things like polls and things like that that get people sort of active in your story. So, but as you said there, somebody who makes probably, makes a little more money than you made a decision to kill StarTouch. How many millions of dollars later it died? It's like 30 million or something.

I hear different numbers. It depends on how, the people that really hated StarTouch or really resent it, the number's bigger with them. Sure, I can imagine. But regardless, there's millions and millions of dollars.

Because the Star, it was a real opportunity. Had it worked, had we done it right, and I think there was a way that it could still be working today, the Star would be more than a newspaper. It would be a tech company because we'd be selling that. Other newspapers were watching. Is this going to work?

And then we'd be the one to export the technology to them. There would be so much more. So killing this is sort of like when you kill the Avro arrow, right? In my mind, yeah. It could have been something. Well, La Presse still has it. They invented it. So maybe they make all the money

on licensing the technology. I mean, there are faults with StarTouch from the get-go. But I just kind of think the way people are going to consume news, everybody's going to consume it in a different way. So you've got to be ready to deliver it on different platforms.

And StarTouch was the iPad platform. Right. And that's what killed it for me. And I actually was kind of your target audience on that one because I liked the Star. It was my go-to favorite paper. I grew up reading it and it was just tough to be locked out of this thing, which I think I would have really enjoyed it. But I didn't want to go to buy a tablet to do it.

It was totally fun. So it's long gone now, but you did recently, you at the Toronto Star, not you, Kevin McGrann, but at the Toronto Star, you recently launched another paywall. So what are your thoughts on this?

Like this one seems, I know this summer they made me register to get free articles there. So I did register, and I'm sure tied to my registration there, that's how they're counting. I think I get five a month. I think I get five free articles a month.

And then it's something, correct me if I'm wrong, but what is it, 15 bucks? Is it 15 bucks a month or something? I think it's $15, yeah. Do you have any, I know you have to kind of tow a company line, but what are your personal thoughts?

You don't have to? Okay, what are your personal thoughts on this new paywall at the Toronto Star? My personal thought, I wish we'd done it in 1999. I wish people were used to the whole idea of paying for information. I think it only makes sense. I can't believe it.

I know we tried a paywall back when Rob Ford was... Yeah, you definitely did. We had it, and then we just kept, oh, we got a great Rob Ford story. Let's open up. Let everybody read it. That's the exact opposite of what you should do when you have a really good product.

Because in this world of Twitter and Facebook, sharing the content that way, having the paywall kind of cuts you off there in terms of disseminating. So people will, if I needed to, for example, if I needed to tweet a story about the election today, I would probably tweet a story about the election today uh i would probably tweet a cbc.ca article knowing everyone who clicks it's going to see it instead

of knowing that basically a bunch of people who click this won't be able to see it if i do it like there is something to that but at the same time how do we pay people like you like it's trying to put it's pandora's box right like you're trying to it's it's i feel the pain if you will because you're right well i think most people are used to getting it for free. I think the tide has turned a little bit. I mean, I think the New York Times and the Washington Post have got successful models for subscription-based internet news. I think The Athletic shows us that there's an audience

for really good, they will pay for really good content. And so I think the world has changed to that degree. TSN is now, you can just subscribe to them online and not through your cable. Can I say that's a terrible website? I don't understand how that, the tsn.ca is a terrible website.

They are a terrible website. They are an absolutely fake. But it's unbelievably bad. And it's probably the most popular in Canada. It's one of it, certainly if it's not. But they haven't really cared about their online presence. It's actually awful. And I mean, I'm kind of in this space in terms of like digital. I provide my own digital services company and I'm in digital marketing forever.

And I'm a keen observer of all this stuff. And by far, the worst experience is when I have to go to TSN. Even if it's just to find out what time. What time of the game? What radio station it's on? Oh, that'sSN, even if it's just to find out what time, what is it? What time of the game? What radio station it's on? It's just a horrific experience, and I don't understand how it can be so bad. They have not invested in it.

They just, because they don't need to. People go there anyway. People are just trained to go there because it's tsn.ca or whatever, and they go there for their leaf coverage or their Eskimos coverage or whatever. They know TSN will have it. They go there. People figure it, or their Eskimos coverage, or whatever. They know TSN will have it.

They go there. People figure it out on their own, but I agree with you, it's not a very good website. So hopefully this new paywall works for the Toronto Star, because the decline of the newspaper, and you'll correct me if I'm wrong, but it all has to do with advertising dollars moving to digital?

Why is the newspaper industry suffering? Well, the, first off, we still make money. We just don't make as much money as our owners are used to.

Right. But the, so, the first thing the internet did was it took all the, it took, there was three,

there was three pillars for a newspaper. Advertising, subscriptions, and classifieds. Right. There's no classifieds in papers anymore.

That was the first thing to go because it was free on Craigslist or Kijiji or whatever. There was no reason to pay us 10 cents a line. Right. So that all vanished. So that was the first thing that hurt. Then like advertising was going to digital. It pays a fraction of what a newspaper charges. For sure.

And then even online, it's like they don't care about a national product. Like what you're doing here is so much more intimate that advertisers will care because I don't know how many people you talk to, but you really talk to them. And they can't be sure that online that a paid ad is even going to get clicked on or seen, right? People are involved in the story. But what you're doing and what other people, it's so much more involved. It's micro-advertising,

but it's more effective for the advertiser so they're willing to pay the micro rather than the macro. And so online advertising has not come up to what we thought it would. Print advertising is, there are certain things that are still very strong. National brands are still very strong and local brands are still very strong, but they're not what they once were.

And so essentially, you know, the moment that the print advertising and the digital advertising meet is the day we'll lose the newspaper. The day we'll lose the printed product. And we have to pare down. We have to become nimble. We have to become focused. And I think maybe the days of a generalist newspaper are gone. There might come a time where the Toronto Star says,

you know what, we're going to sell the sports section to somebody else that really wants the sports section. We don't need it. We don't need it. We just want to do investigations in City Hall and cops. That could happen. There's a question on Twitter from Leafs67. Great handle there.

Is the Star Sports Department dead? And before you even answer that, that's all it says is, is the Star Sports Department dead? Clearly you just named a bunch of people working there, so it's actually not dead. But is it dying? Because do you have the policy right now where, department dead. Clearly you just named a bunch of people working there so it's actually not dead. But is it dying because do you have the policy right now

where at least in the regular season you don't travel with the teams anymore? Well we don't travel as much with the teams because we don't necessarily care that much about the games anymore. But yes we're going through a period every department had to give up whatever 20% of its budget so that we could refocus

on the paywall and all of that sort of thing. So everybody lost their travel budget. That hurts sports the most. It's coming back. It's not coming back to the same degree that we once were, but I'll be in Pittsburgh with the Leafs next week. So it is coming back. And I think one of the things that sort of hit our newspaper,

as far as I'm concerned, the people that have run it through the years have not been sports people. They don't look at us as journalists the way they look at our investigative teams. They think it's the play department and all that. They don't follow sports. They don't quite get sports. But the moment we went behind the paywall and they saw, because we're measuring everything. We're measuring

who's clicking. You can be granular because we have to register to look at the content, which means you know, theoretically, you know, Toronto Mike technically, you know, Toronto Mike is looking at these articles. You have that kind of data. They have that kind of data. They know how many people are clicking,

how long they're staying on stories, what's working and what's not, and we're adjusting accordingly. We're going to give the people what they actually want to read, and they pretty much noticed that Leafs were kind of top of the queue, so they figured better put our Leaf writers

back on the road with the Leafs. So it is coming. It's not, well, they're at home right now, so we're not going to Winnipeg on the weekend, but we'll go to Pittsburgh on the next one. It is coming back, and I think they realize just how important sports coverage is to the

overall delivery of, if you're paying $15 a month, you better give them what they want, and they do want leaf coverage. So it will come back. We're not dead. We're not dead yet, as Monty Python might have said, but yes. When you write about the Leafs, I've been told this

by Hebsey. Hebsey told me this. Hebsey told me to ask you about this. He says that there's a mandate, possibly some kind of a mandate from your employers to only focus on

four Maple Leafs. That's not a mandate. That's my mandate. mandate from your employers to only focus on four maple leaves. That's not a mandate. That's my mandate. Is that your mandate? I've been telling anybody, I don't cover the leaves anymore. I cover Matthews, Nylander, Tavares, and Marner. I can write the best bloody Connor Brown

story. Sorry, Connor, I love you to death, but no one's going to read it. If I write Nylander, it gets picked up by the Apple bot, and everybody's reading it. It goes through the roof. Right. Four guys that he cared about. But that's it.

A little bit of Morgan Riley, a little bit of Nazem Kadri. A little bit of Morgan Riley, yeah. But even they're falling off the map. That's your rule. It's like, that's me. I did a, when Sam Gagne started with the Marlies, I went to go, that's an interesting story to me. Sam Gagne is an interesting story. Heagne started with the Marlies, I went to go, that's an interesting story to me.

Sam Gagne is an interesting story. He's playing with the Marlies. Vancouver Conk is playing with them. I think it's a really interesting story. Look at my story online. The first two words, John Tavares. John Tavares reached out to Sam Gagne. I got the John Tavares lead on my Sam Gagne story

because that's how I got to get people to read it. So, but here, now listen to yourself now, okay, Kevin? Now you're essentially, because now everything's being measured and essentially it's all about clicks or people reading. Now you're now shaping your content to give people what they want as opposed to what they need.

So it's almost like, if there is a great Connor Brown, there's probably a great Zach Hyman, there's probably a fantastic Zach Hyman story that will be neglected to write more about, I don't know, Dubas being in New York to meet with Nylander's agent or whatever

because it's talking about Nylander. If there's only the four guys that are attracting the eyeballs and that means now you're just shoveling everything at these four guys because you need the eyeballs for this to work. How many great stories are going to be left

on the cutting room floor or whatnot? I'll tell you, my friend, there's a million fantastic stories in the CFL and nobody in Toronto reads them. So we can't write them. There's no point. Like the CFL is filled with terrific stories. These guys that are just playing for the love of the game and whatever problems they've had in their life, There's no point. The CFL is filled with terrific stories.

These guys that are just playing for the love of the game and whatever problems they've had in their life. There's a million of them, and they're great talkers and wonderful human beings. I can write the hell out of them. But what's the appetite? But there's an appetite for it. Here's another one. I'm going to guess people will still read about Kawhi Leonard and Kyle Lowry.

That'll move the needle at all? Is that moving the needle at all? Or is it really just all... Is that moving the needle at all? Oh, I think the Raptors will move the needle. But again, it's like one or two guys, and maybe three guys. But with the Leafs, I might be over-exaggerating that it's like three or four guys.

It might be six or seven. That big four. Actually, when Hepsey told me the big four, I named the big four. I just rattled them off. I know who the big four are. I was, I actually, when Hepsey told me the big four, I named the big four. Like, I just rattled him off. I know who the big four are. I was a little surprised it wasn't the big five

because Morgan Riley seems like somebody, but he's like maybe a distant five, you know what I mean? Like, so maybe the big four and then you drop off.

Yeah. Personally, he's my choice for captain. He's that good. Like, he's just that good. But essentially, this goalie,

this Danish, this Freddie guy, I can't imagine, like, there's no interest in him, I guess, which kind of speaks to the power of the big four. Freddy has the mastery of just making it all sound boring. Right. Okay, so here's what I'm going to ask about the Raptors and the Argos.

So I believe this to be true, but now it sounds like you have some metrics to back it up. But I don't see any appetite beyond the loyalists. Like maybe there's a few thousand loyalists, but beyond that, I don't see any appetite beyond the loyalists. Maybe there's a few thousand loyalists, but beyond that, I don't see any appetite for Argo's content at all. None of my friends talk about it. There's no buzz about the Argos at all. Number 3 and 12 are some ridiculous number like that. Yeah, and I bet you most people

don't even know that, even though we won. Did you know we won the Great Cup last year? It was fun. I watched it. I was at the Eastern Conference Final, and after the big touchdown to put us up late, TSN's cameras went right to me. So I had a lot of FaceTime on TSN, and I was texting. I just saw, and after the big touchdown to put us up late, TSN's cameras went right to me. So I had a lot of FaceTime on TSN. I was texting. I just saw you on TSN.

So I guess people will watch an Eastern Conference or a great cup. Would they? Okay. Yeah. What do you think of this idea? Tell me. And this is like half my idea.

Okay, go. The World Cup of Canadian football. Four teams. Canadians from the CFL. Americans from the CFL. Americans from the CFL. And then there's a big product, a team Europe, mostly Germans, and a team Asia, mostly Japanese.

They all play football. They all play gridiron football. They use the four-down version. It's very easy to teach them the three-down version. Hey, there's three downs. So kick on the third down. It's pretty easy. Would you watch

let's say in May they put out the World Cup of Canadian football and the final was USA against Canada would you watch that game? I actually think sadly in Toronto and I can only speak on behalf of the 416 when it comes to football it seems to be NFL or bust

I'm not saying would you go would you watch? I personally might have enough curiosity to tune in, possibly, but I can't imagine that being a big deal amongst the football fans. I just don't think anything but NFL seems to resonate right now with the masses.

I know it's even on Hepzion Sports, and I'm not responsible for content on Hepzion Sports. It's all Mark Hepshire, but I don't remember the last time you mentioned CFL. Here's my question for you, which is the aside you made me think of, which is that you mentioned that nobody in Toronto cares about the Argos stuff, and I believe that's probably true, but there's still an interest in the Raptors. Tell me why when somebody like Dave Schultz or somebody writes about television ratings,

why does the Argos game have such big ratings and the regular season Raptor games have relatively small ratings? It's a really good question. Who's watching? Is it just that the people with the PPMs or whatever are all the old... I think the people in Toronto are from Calgary and they're watching the Argos play their team. And then they're from Edmonton and then they're watching the Argos play their team. Because if you were just measuring it.

Oh, I watch the Argos. I mean, I'll, but I'll watch sports. So, yeah, I don't,

I don't get, I think there's goodwill there for the Argos. I don't think. I have goodwill for the Argos. I would love for that league to survive, to thrive and be a going concern. But even among my friends, you know,

they just believe it's an inferior product with inferior athletes. So they got to overcome that. Part of that comes from, was his name Posey? Who was the Argo who had the big touchdown? Posey, something Posey. I almost said Parker Posey.

I was going to say Parker. Somebody Posey. I remember because he had a really great Eastern Conference final and I was in the front row for it and he was really great. And he was big in the Grey Cup and then he announced he was going to play in the NFL this season. Yeah, they have a problem. Sort of the CFL's biggest problem to me is that

if you're wise enough about the league, you know that you don't really have their team until Labor Day. The summer is basically an extended training camp. They're just waiting for the NFL cuts to really fill out their team. Oh, right? The summer is basically an extended training camp. They're just waiting for the NFL cuts for it to really fill up their team. Oh, right. And then, you know, they have this problem of you can have a, you'd be a great player for one

year and then he's gone the next. Like there's no real connection. They're not, they don't draft a player and then develop them and you're sort of bought into how this, how good this player is going to be. Because it's such, you know, I think if you're good enough in the CFL, you'll play for all eight teams eventually, right? Because you just move

around. Outside of Mabry, like a kicker like Paul Esbaldusen or something like that that played for one team, there's no real connection between player and city because the players are so, they're moved around so much. Very interesting. But that television ratings thing always, because when I measure buzz,

which is very unscientific, I bike around, I see hats, I talk to friends, I go on Twitter. That's how I measure this buzz. I don't know how to, it's not a, like I said, it's not an exact science, but there's no comparison between Raptor's buzz and Argo's buzz, in my opinion.

Meanwhile, if I tell my friend Freddie P from the Humble and Fred show that, he pipes, he tells me, look at the ratings. More people watch Argos in this city than watch Raptors. And then it shuts me up because it's the only thing he can point to, but I don't have an understanding of how that's even so when the buzz seems so different. But anyway, I do root for the Argos. I hope they're successful, but personally, I don't watch any NFL either, but that's another story. So we have the paywall now, the Toronto Star paywall.

You're focusing on the big four with the Leafs because that seems to move the needle in terms of article reading. And I want the paywall to work. I mean, I'm all invested in this, right? You need it to, right? So give the people what they want. They're going to sign up.

They know they're going to get the stories they want. I mean, I will write other stories about other players, and I write a weekly NHL notebook because we just want that presence of what's going on in the league. But really, it's those four guys that people want to read about

at this point anyway. Kapanen wants to make the big five. He's working really hard to make the big five. He did there for a bit, yeah. If we could ever score again, I don't know. It's a little bit of a joke here, but okay. This is an interesting question from Wally M. Wally says, if you were to write a fair

bit, sorry, a fair critical piece on the Leafs, would that hurt your chances, like your relationships, would that hurt your relationship with management or players? Do you have to be sensitive to that? You're worth the Toronto Star, though.

They're not going to take away your media pass. The premise of that question suggests I don't write critical stories about the Maple Leafs. I'm a softening of it. But I have. I mean, right now, they're a good team. It's hard to say they've done what everybody wanted them to do, and they're doing it.

They appear to be doing it right. But there are things you can criticize. With Babcock, for example, I find there's something. You could. He seems some defensive play stuff. There are places. This is far from a perfect team. I'm a reporter, not a columnist,

so I'm more involved with telling the story of the team than I am second-guessing the coach or the general manager. And I've had in the, like, my relationship with Brian Burke was really, really rocky because he never liked anything I wrote then. John Ferguson didn't like anything I wrote, but, you know, the teams weren't good. Nope.

So, you know, it's like I'm reflecting the team back to them. I've had, I don't, I don't know. With Phil Kessel, I had an interesting relationship, but Dave Fester took the heat for it. Like it was kind of weird that day. So the colonists are more likely to be the ones to come in and ruffle feathers. I might stir the pot a little bit, but I'm going to report on what happened,

not my necessarily opinion of what happened. So I don't really look at myself as a muckraker in that. I have raked the muck over time, but right now it's like, I mean, what do fans want? They're six and three. They're a good team.

They want to see different line combinations sometimes. All right. That is the one thing about this market that I find absolutely amazing is just how intelligent the fan base is on hockey. I believe one of the things I believe about why the Air Canada or the Scotiabank Arena is so quiet is it takes a lot to impress them. Like I don't necessarily buy into it that they're just rich folks glad-handing their their business partners i think it takes a lot to impress that audience because every one of those people either coach the game played the game they think they can be the coach they think they can be the general manager they think they've got all of that and it really does take something spectacular to move them so it sounds like you're you're saying that if there was something critical to cover about the

leads you would not hesitate to do so for fear of repercussions from... I don't care about the repercussions. The players, I'm in there every day. If they have an issue with me, they can take it up with me. Right now, outside of maybe how they're handling William Nylander, and I'm not necessarily thinking they're doing anything wrong.

I think if the numbers are what the numbers are, then Nylander's in wishful thinking territory at this point. I hope the best for him, but I don't think they're necessarily doing this wrong. It's the situation they're in. No, absolutely, absolutely. Now, back to Leaf 67.

Is the Star Sports Department dead? I would ask that, let's say, we have this current Toronto Star paywall and it's like 15 bucks a month. That's an interesting number to me because it seems high. Like I know it's not high because it's 50 cents a day or something,

which is, you know, we always talk about the cup of coffee but people are spending six bucks a day on a Starbucks coffee and not thinking twice about it. They tap their card and it's not even a thought process. But this reminds me of, okay, your phone, would you an iPhone guy or an Android guy? iPhone. Okay. So you probably, and I'm not saying you did, but you would probably be okay with maybe

spending $600 on a phone, let's say. But if somebody told you this app was $2.99, but it was going to really enhance the $600 experience. I'm not saying you personally, but a lot of people are like, no way. It's funny where we choose to be cheap, isn't it? Right. I went to $2.99. I could have gone with $0.99 because I know people,

and I'm not unlike this too, but won't hesitate to spend the $500 on the device, but ask them to spend $0.99 on something that's going to be something they'll use every day and enhance the experience? Forget it. I'm going to spend 99 cents on that. I'd like to know from our readers, so it's $15

for the newspaper, for everything. Would you spend $5 just for sports? And that's what you mentioned, the athletic earlier, but they're just writing about sports. They're not going to cover this election today, but they cover sports. And they're cheap, too. Yeah, because everybody I know

got one of those promo codes and spent something like $4 a month or something. We're talking... $40 a year, $50 a year. Right. And their model is amazing because you might sign up because you're not getting proper coverage

of the Columbus Blue Jackets. So all you really care about is Aaron Portsline's coverage of the Blue Jackets, but you get everything else with it if you want it. You're really only signed up for Aaron, but you get everything. So if you want to read Ken Rosenthal on baseball, or if you've got a college football team you want to follow, they're all there.

It's pretty amazing. What you're saying there is a very interesting idea, because right now you're right. You pay the 15 bucks a month and you get all of the Toronto Star stuff. But if you modular, like in software, they do this. Like you have the suite and then they modularize. That's a tough word to say.

But yeah, if you had a sports module, you could subscribe to. And I'd like to put my name out there, subscribe for me, and we'll give you whatever, two free months or something like that. Make it the way The Athletic does. Like, here's a discount if you subscribe for me give you whatever, two free months or something like that. Like make it the way The Athletic does. Like here's a discount if you subscribe for me and then whatever.

Subscribe for Bruce Arthur and subscribe for Dave Fester. Because you could be dropping that promo code right now. I could just be doing that. Because people listening to this must have some interest in sports or you or the Channel Star and that's like you're fishing where the fish are. There's fish here. Exactly. That's a really good way of putting it.

That's what I like about podcasts, right? Because you have your own audience and you can talk to them. Well, the best part is when you're promoting a podcast. Like this is at a point where I'm pretty sure I only got Dan Shulman to come in my basement because it was the same week he was launching Swinging a Belt. There you go. Right? Because here's the thing. Everyone listening to us right now has a degree of familiarity with podcasts or they can't hear us like so we're talking to and the vast majority of the people listening to my voice right now lucky people are podcast subscribers so if you

were one if you wanted to promote your podcast doing so on a popular local podcast is the very best way because you are fishing where the fish are. Yeah. Right. So on that, in fact, in a minute, I'm going to touch on podcasts

with you and the Toronto Star. But if this current paywall doesn't work, like heaven forbid, I don't know, I think it'll work. Hopefully, it does feel,

it feels high to me and I know it's not high, but this, my brain has a 999, like it just feels once you go above $10 a month, it feels like you're asking for $100 a month. This is a psychological thing.

Maybe I need therapy for this, okay? Because what is $15 a month? I know. It's like $10 a beer in the city, right? It's $10 or $12 for a drink of anything, and you consume that in pretty short order. I subscribe, so I pay for the New York Times, and I pay for The Athletic,

and I pay for the Hockey News. And I'm a Star employee, so I get that free. So those are what, and I've hit that, oh, I pay for iCloud, right? I've hit the point where if I want something, if it's worth it to me, I will pay for it. I hope the Toronto Star or thestar.com is worth it to enough people that we become a viable,

in and of itself becomes a viable business because that's where we're going to end up. The paper's not going to last forever, the physical paper. And I think your key advantage at the Toronto Star is that you have no ownership stake in MLSE. That's another thing. We are independent, right? There's very few of us left covering the team that doesn't have some sort of hold to the team, right?

So when we write, I don't know, I did a Nylander piece last week that was really critical of the Nylander camp thing. You don't really see that necessarily. And I'm not saying it's because they don't think of writing it, but they're not so focused on telling the stories of the team. It is interesting watching

what I think would be a good story that really everybody else should follow, not get followed, and is not getting followed because there's some self-censorship going on? I don't know. Well, this comes up a lot on this podcast with people, particularly the Blue Jays and Rodgers,

because that's like the last team left that's not owned by some kind of Bell-Rodgers consortium. Like, the Blue Jays right now are Rogers only, and Rogers has all the rights to all the baseball. And so as a result, all the columnists and all the people covering the Jays, you know, excluding the star and some independents, they're all kind of Rogers employees on some level. And there might not be a, I just had Scott Mor moron so it's all fresh my head but there might not be an edict or a memo that goes out saying uh uh don't talk trash

about shapiro and atkins or something that doesn't happen but there is this they did suspend wilner many years ago for criticizing cito and there might be this self-censorship this awareness that only certain people can be i don't't know if the average listener or reader thinks in these terms, but because I'm in media, I do. So Steve Brandt, the sports writer, sports writer, great guy, great reporter, great everything, great mind, great way of thinking around the world. Everything about him is fantastic as a journalist,

but he works for Sportsnet. So when I hear him defend Atkins, I go, well, that's Steve Brett. He knows what he's talking about. That's great. But he's also an employee, kind of. So is it really him? So it's like you're saying the optics are bad.

Even if he's not biased, the perception is reality. Yeah. Yeah. You guys don't have that issue. All right. So I'm not going'm not gonna like it i think it hurts his credibility in a way even though his credibility is like should be bulletproof right like it just is his first visit here so he's been here a couple times and i i really enjoy my

steven brunt conversations i'm enjoying this one too by way. But the first time that Brunt was here, I told him that I had those similar feelings about, he did a piece about Shapiro coming to Toronto and it was a very glowing, loving thing about what a great family man he is, how great his work was in Cleveland, why Toronto should give him a chance. It really, I honestly watched it and felt like I watched like a PR piece by the Rogers PR team or something. But it's Stephen Brunt. And Brunt, we all think of Brunt as having a great deal of integrity. He's one of the greatest sports writers in the country. And he is. But

it had an odor and he took some offense to me bringing this up. He told me that he disagreed with my premise and and here's why, and blah, blah, blah. That's good. But that's an example of a piece that, because of who he works for, it just felt very fluffy and PR-ish. And that must plague Rogers employees. And on the other side of the coin, especially the CFL, the Bell Media people as well.

But you're the Toronto Star. So I think this is your ace in the hole. Yeah, and I had a former sports editor of mine telling me just that, that what the Star should be doing with the sports department in particular is just marketing the fact that we're not tied to any of the teams.

We're just independent. We're an independent look at what's going on. And that's why I'm glad to hear you say that you have no concerns about access to players or you can't. You're Toronto Star. There's no way MLSE has taken away your media pass. Although Hebsey couldn't get one,

but he's just Hebsey. But if he was at the Star, he'd probably be able to get one. Yeah, they do respect... All the teams, every league, be able to get one. Yeah, they do respect... All the teams, every league, they respect what newspapers do. Good, good, good, good. And if this current

payroll, and this is where I was kind of going with... If it doesn't work, is this sort of the last gasp? It feels like after that whole StarTouch fiasco that this needs to work. It feels like this needs to work. The StarTouch fiasco. It was a lot. It feels like this needs to work. The StarTouch fiasco. It was a lot.

I don't know how much that breaks my heart. It killed it. It wasn't all the work. Couldn't you just leaner and leaner? The problem with it, there was a buzzkill around it. It had to die? It had to go. Take it out back and shoot it? Yeah.

It had to go. The launch was worse than it could have been. And we did a lot. We've already talked about it. But is there any danger of the... I think this is like the next kick at the can. I don't think it's the last kick at the can. This is what we've got to do. I think this is what everybody's got to do.

Like, unless you're just selling something, you're Canadian Tire and you're selling online, you need a subscriber base. You need people to have some play in the game. They need to be part of it. You just, it can't work any other way. I don't know that that's the only way it's going to work. Like, there are other ideas, like sponsors is an idea. Right.

Membership is an idea. The Athletic does these things, or I'm sure you've heard of Kevin Kennedy and his puck talks. Would you think your listeners would come to a night with the Toronto Star Sports Department talking about our beats and what we do? Yeah, I bet you

they would, actually. Right? So there's an idea. I think big newspapers have to think micro not macro and eking out a reputation they i don't know they'd make money on it but they'd promote themselves and they'd be a little bit more involved in the community i think there's other ways they can do it and then of course there's the big rich owner like we had big rich owners they've lost a boatload of money on us they will sell to another big rich owner and then we had big rich owners, they've lost a boatload of money on us, they will sell to another big rich owner and

then he will lose a boatload. But that's a continuing process because newspapers are an ego thing. Interesting that the Rogers Sportsnet

personalities have been banned from those pitch talks and puck talks and hoop talks and all those talks because they were all over those things, especially the

pitch talks. They're fun events to go to and they're getting bigger and bigger. No more Jeff Blair, no more Brunt, no more Rasha Danny. Exactly. No more Jeff Merrick.

Oh well, but they're still welcome on Toronto Mic for what it's worth. Now, okay, that's very interesting. Now, I want to ask you about podcasting here.

So, is there any strategy at all or any discussion at all at, you know, One Young Street regarding podcasting? Well, Doug Smith and Laura Armstrong did do a podcast called I'll Have Another, and it was fairly successful for what it was. I mean, I think, and then because it was right around the time we went through a big layoff thing, and I think the guy that produced it was Jump Ship, and then it looked like for a while Laura was going to lose her job in the layoffs. She was saved, thankfully. She was the last. She's got the least seniority of anybody left at the Star, so she was the cutoff.

My thing, I think it could work. We need dedicated staff for it. That's part of our problem is we think of these great ideas, we do them for a little bit, and then it kind of wanes. Like I was the first guy in 2007 to bring a camera, the first reporter to bring a camera into the Leaf Room, and then I started doing my

own stand-ups, and they loved them, but then they wanted to be like, they loved that it was sort of guerrilla quality. They were crappy to look at. Raw. It was raw. So it was honest. It had that feel to it. But then they got this idea that they wanted

to be really professionally done with photographs and highlights and stuff like that. Well, that requires staff. Yeah. And we don't have them. So we don't do. Typical bloat. We don't do videos anymore.

I think, like we just talked about with a membership, a podcast would be a great idea. It's a great micro way of thinking about positioning ourselves in the market. Whether it was the sports department doing a weekly podcast or the newspaper doing a weekly podcast about the best stories of the week. Well, the cleaning guy on Twitter,

that's exactly what he says. With various newspapers creating podcasts, such as The Daily. The Daily from the New York Times, it's doing very well. I monitor these Apple podcast charts. I mean, it is the New York Times, of course, but the Toronto Star is the New York Times of Canada, right?

This is the biggest... The Globe and Mail thinks it is. Right, that's right. But in terms of circulation, the highest circulation always was the Toronto Star. Yeah, we're fourth in North America, I believe. Right, right. Or were, I don't know anymore.

The Cleaning Guy, yeah. The Cleaning Guy says, does the Star plan to launch any similar to this model? So I'm personally, I now produce, like I mentioned Hepsi a few times this show, but I now personally produce other people's podcasts. And for companies, securities companies, for example, and other companies, I do the A to Z of their podcasts. Like, bring me securities companies, for example, and other companies,

I do the A to Z of their podcasts. Like, bring me the content, I'll handle the rest. So I'm naturally interested in the Toronto Star's podcasting strategy. Right now we appear not to have one. I would bet that if they could figure out a way to do it on the cheap and make it sound really good,

they'll look at it. We are copying the New York Times model bit by bit. We have the morning emails going out and that sort of thing that I actually suggested we do in 1999, but that's another thing. But you know what? The thing about it is I was listening to a podcast from, I forget who it was, but it was basically the people.

They had one of the guys that started Wired, and he was talking about starting Wired.com. So he was the magazine guy, and they thought what they would do is just take the magazine and put it online, and then they thought better of it. They said, why don't we just hire a bunch of.com, a bunch of internet people. This is the beginning of the internet, really, like the early, late 1990s. Late 90s, yeah. When the Wired.com started. And they said, why don't we just hire people and let them do it? Let them figure it out, rather than just translate this technology to

that medium. And I think that's part of the problem with legacy newspapers is that they think, just move the newspaper to this medium and it'll be the same. And it's not. It's something different and new. I wish I had more. I wish I could sit down and do a podcast. I could do it'll be the same. Absolutely. And it's not. It's something different and new. I wish I had more. I wish I could sit down and do a podcast. I could do it.

Hand the Toronto Star podcast keys to me. All right. Let's do it. And you know what? Oh, my gosh. It'd be under budget. It would be done right. Because I think what happens with big companies like Torstar,

and you kind of described it with that raw, authentic video you were taking, that we need to be like this, and then it just dies in the vine. But you bloat it. There's a tendency to overthink it and bloat it. I could give you a hard example of that from last week. So I do more or less a daily blog. It's not exactly daily. It's sort of as I get around to it, but it's four or five times a week.

And on Fridays, it's always the mailbag. And the mailbag is, I'm told, one of the most popular things on our website. So now they thought, why don't we print it in the Saturday paper? So now I've gone from having great little conversations. I've never edited. I have never edited the readers.

I don't care how they spell. It's whatever. And then I kind of make fun of them on whatever. Sure. And I'll answer it. And now it's, well, they've got to be edited now. And they've got to be proper. And they've got to have names.

And we've got to do this. So now we've taken something that was fun and organic and its own audience. And because it's going in the paper, it now needs other stuff done to it. It can't be this. It can't be that. It can't have this kind of headline. It can't be this. It can't be that. It can't have this kind of headline. It's all small little things that gnaw around the

edges for me, but it's like... That's a great example. Just leave it alone. Let it be. Don't put it in the paper. Just let me keep doing this, which is bringing... Why are you changing it? I invented it. The readers really invented it. And readers really invented it.

And readers nowadays in 2018, there's an appreciation for authenticity. Like if somebody calls Austin Matthews A-U-S-T-I-N. Exactly. Like there's something real. I call it real talk here. Like I'm not going to edit a word. Like this conversation.

Let's say we had a little exchange. Let's say we didn't, but let's say it's a little dull, maybe whatever. Maybe a little, I would never go in and extract that to tighten this up because this is like a live to air kind of, people are listening and us having a chat here. And that's sort of the beauty of podcasting. I like the authenticity of you taking,

even if it was just your smartphone taking video on the scene or whatever. I would love for these new webby parts of this old industry newspapers to be sort of handed over to somebody from this webby world as opposed to kind of like trying to grandfather in things that have been done like for a hundred years. world as opposed to kind of like trying to grandfather in things that have been done like for a hundred years. We are getting better at it because we're hiring the people that are coming in at the younger ages.

We do have a few of them and they've got interesting ideas and they are fast at it because they know where to go for a gift or like whatever it is. Yeah. It's their language. Yeah, and we have one, Kelsey Wilson's kind of our video editor. She's got Toronto Star Archives on Twitter and Instagram.

She has to go through the archives for a variety of reasons. She sees a picture she likes, she just posts it one a day, a little background, and it's just taking off. People are really digging a picture from the old

days on Instagram with a little bit of context to it. It's nothing. There's no subscribers to it, but it's a presence that we have because of her. And it didn't exist like six months ago. Very cool. Very cool. Now, do you personally listen to a lot of podcasts?

I'm doing it more and more. My daughters have turned me on to some of them. But I'm not, when I go, I like to go for long walks and I should start listening to them more there. I kind of more or less listen to them in the car or whatever. But I will always listen if somebody says, you should listen to this. I'll probably pretty much listen to it.

I couldn't quote you the name of a podcast, though. Then I won't ask. I won't put you on the spot there. But whether it was Gare or David, when they said, hey, come with us to Great Lakes Brewery because we're going to do some stand-up for this guy, this guy Toronto Mike's having a listener experience, and we're going to do it there.

Were you like, who is this guy? I'd heard a little bit about you. I'd heard a little bit about you. I can't exactly say where, but yeah, I said, this is legit. So let's go. Cool. And did you get a good time that night? I did.

It was fun. Cool. Did you notice Wilner was there when there was a Blue Jay game on? I talked to Mike. We actually talked about that. I think Mike has done an amazing job. I think he should be the voice. I know that they have an issue because he was so critical of the team for so many years.

He's polarizing, I think, is the problem. But I think his voice is really good. I think he tells a good story. And he's the kind of guy who's been around the team for so long that in the slow in-between pitches, he'll tell the stories the way Tom Cheek once told the stories and Jerry Howard told the stories. He'd be my pick. If they're going to pick a guy to do 162 games,

he'd be my choice, and I told him that night. And then I thought it was odd that he wasn't there. Oh, I agree, I agree, I agree. I don't want to bore you. Leafs talk, we can get it from you at The Source. Kevin McGran writes for the Toronto Star, in case you didn't. I don't want to bore you. Leafs talk, we can get it from you at the source. You know, Kevin McGran writes for the Toronto Star, in case you didn't know, so I won't bore you. But do you have a prediction on what's going on

with the Nylanders, like how the Nylander situation resolves, if you had to guess? My guess is Nylander will take the contract that's offered to him from Kyle Dubas. I don't think they're going to budge on the dollar figure. Whatever he was offered in the summer, it was probably exactly what he was

offered on the eve of the season, and it will be what he signs for when he signs. And if that does unfold that way, that would be a miscalculation by Knee Liner's advisors, because he hasn't been paid. He's losing money just by sitting. There's ways to fix that with a signing bonus

and all of that, so he'll lose a nominal amount. Okay, cool. John Tavares, by far the greatest unrestricted free agent signing in Leafs history. I can't think of who we'd put number two. Tyler Bozak would be number two.

Is that right? He was unrestricted free agent. He played for them for nine years, and he's 24th all-time in the game's played list. Was McGillney an unrestricted free agent? Yeah, but he didn't play as long. Not as long, but I know,

but I think he was. I think it's a good argument. I think JT is the best that they've ever signed. I think he's by far the best. And I think by far the best, but the number two is an interesting argument.

Was Belfour unrestricted? Belfour? Joseph? Joseph was, yeah. Maybe those guys, but that's a fun chat to have. And who else? Okay, let's see here.

Austin Matthews, prior, if we had had this chat, originally, when were we going to do it earlier? If it was before the two games with the one goal, we'd be asking, how many,

will he get a, will he get to 60? That might be the chat we're having. That was the conversation a week ago. And I was like, will he get to 50? Maybe 40.

We're dialing that back now is what we're doing. We're correcting ourselves and we're just going to be glad that he'll probably have between 40 and 50 and that's where he's been basically. He was 40 the first year, right? 40 the first year and he was injured last year. And he's still got 39 or something? Yeah, his goals per minute is pretty amazing.

Goals per 60, whatever they call it. It's pretty high and he's getting more minutes now and he's playing the power play, so he should eclipse 40. Kyle Dubas, who is a young person and has a more progressive thought,

I don't know how to say it, but Lou is an old school guy, Lou Lamorello. There are a couple things. I noticed now Austin can sport a beard because although Lou did bend in the playoffs, I guess he had to. Lou's thing was if one player does it, everybody has to do it.

So if everybody's grown a beard in the playoffs, that's good. The team has to be the same. I guess I never understood this thought, maybe because I'm not from Lou's era or whatever. I never understood the whole no beard. I never understood it. He just wants, he wants,

he imposes rules and he just wants to see who's going to obey them. Because if you obey them, you're a team guy. That's power tripping, right? If you're not going to obey him,

you're not going to be on his team and he'll get rid of you. He wants people that will obey because that's, you've got to listen to the coach,

right? So, you've got to do what the coach says. Well, I'm glad that that rule's gone and Tyler Bozak came back with the Blues, and there was a little video tribute for him.

And I believe that was against Lou's. Lou wouldn't have allowed that. Is that fair to say? They've been hot and cold on it for a while, because I remember when Matt Sundin came back. No, it was Darcy Tucker. When Darcy Tucker came back, the Leafs were in a playoff race, and he came back for Colorado and they were going on,

Colorado was going on the power play and that's when they gave Tucker his big thing. And then all of a sudden Tucker was fired up and Colorado scored, the Leafs lost and it was a key point in their season, really. Yeah. And so they decided then, in the opposite, maybe they shouldn't do that quite as much.

And I think Brendan Shanahan's sort of been going down that road of let's pick our spots a little bit more wisely and maybe not the third period of a tight game. So they have done it and they have not. I'm glad they did it for Tyler Bozak. I think he was underappreciated here. I think I'm happy he's still playing the game

and hopefully makes the playoffs and does some damage. For sure. Now, Ivan, his question is he wanted you to name your top five Maple Leafs of all time. Can you run off this list? You probably have it on the top of your list. Well, I voted for the top 100 last year, so I

hope I can remember the order in which I... Be consistent? It would be consistent, but I know Dave Keon, Daryl Sittler, and Matt Sundin were high on my list. I don't think I had Doug Gilmore very high because he just wasn't around the way other guys were.

I put... Who else? I probably put... Oh, I put Johnny Bauer up there were. I put... Who else? I probably put... Oh, I put Johnny Bauer up there and I put Turk Brod up there. So I have difficulty. I think everyone has difficulty gauging players.

I mean, I can read history books and everything, so I know what Bobby Orr was and I know how he revolutionized the position and I can even buy into some people's arguments that he's the greatest player in the history of the team.

I never saw Bobby Orr play a game. I missed his entire career. Missed his entire career. Never saw him play a game. And then you mentioned all those leaves. Other than Matt Sundin, I actually have no memories, and maybe as a little kid,

I was watching a game with Daryl Sittler, and I just don't remember. I have no memories of seeing Sittler. I definitely never saw Dave Keon play. Forget Turk Broda and Johnny Bauer, right? So hearing your list there, Matt Sandin. Well, I'm respecting, I tried my best. In that list, I tried my best to respect the generations.

So I mean, I did see Johnny Bauer play, but he was at the very, very end at that time. I saw all the others play. Not Turk Brode, obviously, but when it came to guys like Conacher and whatever. Teeter Kennedy is a name I always hear. Teeter Kennedy was a guy that I did not respect enough in my list.

I was criticized for not having Teeter Kennedy high enough because Con Smythe said he was the prototypical Leaf. But yeah, I tried to get in my top 10. And then again, in my top 20, I tried to get somebody from pretty much every decade if I could, just so that they were not forgotten and they got some props. That sounds like a pretty strong list.

We're going to turn it to music now, just for a moment. We're going to close with some music. Now, we're not even at Halloween yet. So this is a song that gets a lot of airplay in December for an obvious reason, but I often will tell anyone who listens that this is the one, if you want to call it a Christmas song, but this is the one Christmas song that I can enjoy in July. Like, that's how much I personally love this song, and that's not the reason you chose it. You chose

this song to play today because you love this song and we're playing it as a teaser of sorts because I'm hoping to convince you to come back at some point to kick out the jams with me. I'd love to do that. I'd find that very intimidating but I could do it. I'd love it. Well Schultz did it and Gare Joyce did it so they'll give you the tips but you're definitely going to come back and do it. But let's play a bit of your jam here and then talk about this. It was Christmas Eve, babe In the drunk tank

An old man said to me Won't see another one And then he sang a song The rare old mountain dew I turned my face away And dreamed about you Got on a lucky one Came in 18 to 1

I've got a feeling This year is for me and you So happy Christmas I love you baby I can see a better time When all our dreams come true They got cars big as bars, they got rivers of gold But the wind goes right through you, it's no place for the old When you first took my hand on a cold Christmas Eve

You promised me Broadway was waiting for me You were handsome, you were pretty queen of New York City When the band finished playing, they held out for more Sinatra was swinging, all the jokes they were singing We kissed on the corner, then danced through the night The boys of the NYPD choir were singing Go away, play Fantastic, Kevin. But tell us, why do you love Fairy Tale of New York? By the Pogues and Christy McCall.

I just love it. Is that a good enough answer? Good enough for me, man. For me, it's the most honest love song ever written because here's this couple from Ireland and my family's Irish and they came over I'm a big

I was a big Poets guy at the time they've come over they've got the promise of America in front of them and then things don't go the way they would dream and they're on each other but I think at the end you know I could have been someone I so could anyone I took my dreams from me I kept them with me they're still together they got they found a way to get through

the tough times there's still there's it's a beautifully written song it's got a kind of some weird intersections in terms of of my life and and their life and then in sort of kind of some weird intersections in terms of my life and their life. And then in sort of kind of like songs that I like, I kind of research what they're all about. And so the process of writing that song, it took them two years to get it right. Christy McCall, her dad wrote Dirty Old Town. That's actually about a small town in northern England.

It's not about Dublin. Fantastic. But Christian McCall's Dad Ewan wrote that. I didn't know that. I didn't know that. It's about Salford, England. So the line from Dirty Old Town, on the smoky wind,

it's really originally the Salford wind. And it's not about Dublin. Everybody thinks it's about Dublin because the Dubliners sang it and the Polks sang it so the song's got some interesting cross sections and it starts it's got 4-4 time, it's got 3-4 time it's just a really

it's got the diddle-de-dee that you can do a jig to if you really wanted to it's got so many little aspects it's a duet, I like duets it tells a great story it might be the best duet and your sound on these headphones is amazing. This is the best I've heard this

song. I don't really have a great sound system at home, but you can actually hear the lines. Some people call it came in at 10 to 1, but no, the line is came in 18 to 1, and I actually heard it really clearly on your headphones. Your headphones are doing the trick. I love the poke. My family back was Irish, too, and my grandmother always went trick. I mean, I love the Pogues. My family back was Irish

too and my grandmother always went on. I finally got to Dublin. My wife and I went to Dublin and it was kind of a neat experience because I kept hearing about all this stuff and everything. And I always liked the Pogues anyways, but my favorite show of all time is a show called

The Wire. Oh yeah. So I pointed to the box set. It's in the liner notes. You can check it out there. But in The Wire, there's of course some pivotal scenes at, is it Cavanaugh's? And the Irish pub there. Season 5 of The Wire might be the best season of television ever. Well, you're a print

guy. Yeah, I was all about the decline of print and it was like so, oh, this is painful. But the Americans went through it 10 years before the Canadians did. That's why it was on the wire 10 years ago or whatever that was. Yeah, it was all just kind of just post-9-11 because I know all the drug war moved to the terrorist

war, and that was a whole interweaving thing. So anyways, the go-to song, like they'd have a wake for a fallen cop or something, and they would have the wake at this Irish pub, and Body of an American by the Pogues was the, and they would have The Wake at this Irish pub. And Body of an American by the Pogues. Lester Freeman, I can hear, just play

the damn song, and they stick in the cassette, and they play Body of an American, which is a fantastic song as well. The Pogues have a great hits collection that I just spin all the time. I just love that voice, too. Shane McGowan was awesome. Pogue Mahone's the name of my fantasy

hockey team in the media hacks pool, which is a killer pool to be in. Amazing, amazing. So, Kevin, I hope you had a good time here and that you will come back to kick out the jams with me. I would love to be a lot of Beatles though, so I don't know. Well, maybe, actually I had

a rule and I stopped enforcing it, but my rule forever was that you could only have one song per artist so you're welcome to have a Beatles song and a John Lennon song solo and then you could have

a Wings song or something and a Paul McCartney and there we go or a George Harrison song I actually did that on the top 10 list once it was all some version of Beatles

right right right right through Pete Best in there yeah so please come back for that but thank you for this this was a very very uh it was great fun

for me i'm a sports fan but i'm also a fan of the media and the written word and uh good to hear what the toronto star is up to it was truly my pleasure to be here so thank you for having me and that brings us to the end of our 389th show you can follow me on twitter i'm at toronto mike kevin is at kevin underscore mcgrann I'm at Toronto Mike. Kevin is at Kevin underscore McGran. Our friends at Great Lakes Brewery are at Great Lakes Beer. Property in the 6.com is at Raptors Devotee. And Paytm is at

Paytm Canada. See you later this week when my guest is Danny Elwell. Thank you.