Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Kish: Toronto Mike'd #608

Episode Date: April 1, 2020

Mike chats with Andrew Kishino a.k.a. Kish about scoring a record deal, dropping Order From Chaos, his 1991 single "I Rhyme the World in 80 Days", his follow-up album and why he left Canada to become a voiceover artist in LA.

10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 Ladies and gentlemen, on the M.I.C. we have M.C. Kish And on the wheels of steel My DJ is Christopher My DJ is Christopher My DJ is My DJ is My DJ is Christopher My DJ is My DJ is My DJ is What up, Miami?

Toronto VK on the beat Check I'm in Toronto where you wanna get the city love I'm from Toronto where you wanna get the city love I'm in Toronto where you wanna get the city love My city love me back for my city love Welcome to episode 608 of Toronto Mic'd, a weekly podcast about anything and everything. Proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, a fiercely independent craft brewery who believes in supporting communities, good times, and brewing amazing beer. Palma Pasta. Enjoy the taste of fresh homemade Italian pasta and entrees from Palma Pasta in Mississauga and Oakville.

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to 59559 I'm Mike from torontomike.com and joining me this week is the artist formerly known as Kish. Welcome to Toronto Mike Kish. Thank you so much for having me. It's an honor to be here. Am I allowed to call you Kish or should I refer to you as Andrew? Kish is fine. Everybody calls me Kish. Even after all this time, everybody still calls me Kish. It's funny. It took until the Twitter era for me to realize,

oh, Kish is an Andrew Kishino because you're Andrew Kishino. And it makes sense that you were Kish. It just all comes together. And it makes sense that you were Kish. It just all comes together. Yeah, I mean, when you think about it, it is kind of the laziest and most expeditious nickname I could think of. Of all the elaborate things that I could come up with, I was like, yeah, it was a short and last name. One question I have is, so I've known you,

well, basically I learned about you when Order from Chaos dropped. And we're going to dive deep into that. Although this is a moment I'm going to share with you that it would be impossible for you to ever remember this. But I want to say 1990 or something like that. I was at HMV at 333 Yonge Street. I remember that. Yeah, I remember the story. Yeah, and you passed me in the basement of HMV, and I went to my buddy Andre,

and I said, that's Kish. Oh, that's my brush of greatness from way back in the day. I wish I could say I remember that. I apologize profusely because I don't want to sound like I'm not remembering it. Yeah, now I'm racking my brain. I do remember that in the basement was where they had all of the,

which I think there was some sort of twisted metaphor about that, where they had all of the so-called urban music, hip-hop, dance, you know, R&B, house, so on and so forth. But yeah, I do remember that. I do remember the basement. Yeah, and if you had remembered the brush with me, I actually would have been worried about you. I would be like, you need to see somebody

because I'm glad. You know what I mean? I'm like, uh-oh. Am I the only fan who recognized this guy in public? Because as far as I remember remember you were on high we're gonna get into this this is like a tease but you were on high rotation on much music so i'm pretty sure i wasn't alone wow yeah i i honestly now because i just remember being in that and i remember going there a couple of times. And I also remember there was a performance that we had, um, that I had there with, uh, we did an in-store with Wes and, uh,

Oh, actually no way. Sorry. Wes was it. Uh, Maestro was I think the Eaton Center and I, I think D light was performing. Oh, um, with, and I, we were both performing at HMV. And they ended up shutting the store down and then everything kind of went all bananas. Yeah, that was a pretty crazy time. D-Lite, like does Bootsy Collins show up for that too?

Or is it just, I can't remember her name now, Queen something? No, that was Lady Miss Kier. Right. I believe her name was. And there was a Russian guy in there too. I think it was DJ Dimitri and there was a Japanese DJ also.

Yes. Yeah, so there were three of them, but it was just the three of them and a couple of dancers. And they were all really wonderful, like amazing people. They were all so friendly and so nice. And yeah, they were really, really cool.

But I remember them kind of going like, whoa, this is getting a little hectic. We all might want to just get out of here. Wow. Okay. So I'm now having a flashback that Working Cash in the basement of HMV, which like you said, that was like the urban hip hop section. Working Cash was a member of Degrassi Junior High. And it was the actress who played Kathleen. Okay.

She worked cash in that HMV. And that was the first time in my life I realized, oh, like you could be on TV in this country and you still needed to work cash to pay the rent. That was the moment for me. I remember this. Yeah. Obviously, there's a very long, protracted discussion about that because that is obviously something that pretty much every artist that comes out of Canada comes to grips with.

It's not that there isn't the love of the city or the country that you come from. It's the fact that from an economic standpoint, it's not feasible to exclusively be an actor or be a musician. It just simply, like the economic model just does not exist and so you're absolutely right i mean you know because i have no shame in my game when i was like the record was doing really well i was still riding the subway and riding the bus right um and that was you know obviously because i had a pragmatic view i mean more so because i had a pragmatic view of things where it's like, look, I got to get somewhere. So I'm not, you know,

I'm not gonna be stupid about it. But at the same time, it was the acknowledgement of, um, you know, I can't alter these financial circumstances. I simply have to just work with what I got. Well, you know what I'm going to, when we get to the moment when you, uh, you leave us, because, uh, for those who don't know, we better tell them,

where are you Zooming in from today? Right now, I am Zooming in from Los Angeles, California, where I have lived for the better part of two decades now. Wow. Okay, so if my math skills are not too strong here, what year does that mean that you left Canada for USA? Like what? 99?

Wow. Yeah, something like that, yeah. Okay, so when we get to the, because we're going to deep dive and do a chronological build here, but at some moment, you know, we're going to have you making a decision to leave, dare I say, leave the motherland here.

See what I did there? I'm a professional. Okay. And move to Cali. And we'll talk about, you know, all the great things that have happened to you in California. But it's, you know, you're another, like Neil Young, like there's a, you know, you're on the long list of Michael J. Fox, the long list of Canadians who had to go to the States to kind of, to make a living. So we'll get to that. Uh, how are things on the COVID-19 pandemic front in California? You keeping safe? I am definitely. Thank you for, um, thank you for asking. I mean, uh, one of the things that I'm extremely grateful for in Los Angeles is, um, as, as there was everywhere there was an initial sort of sense of unease and people were nervous

and quite rightfully so but I think what that started it's in the past week or so has become tempered with is a sense of a greater acknowledgement of the fact and the measures necessary in order for everybody to be safe so with that knowledge is a degree of empowerment so people are kind of acknowledgement of the facts and the measures necessary in order for everybody to be safe. So with that knowledge is a degree of empowerment. So people are kind of, I'm very grateful to see a lot of people settling into a routine where they're acknowledging that things have to be done a little differently. It's a very minor inconvenience for an incredibly great

report. So, you know, I think that I'm just really sort of heartened to see that there are a lot of people who kind of have all, like in a sense, bonded together and understood a greater community responsibility in order to see us through this. So you're practicing physical distancing there in LA? Absolutely. Absolutely.

Because, you know, it's not, I mean, there's, you know, there's no, you have to. You absolutely have to. So, and as far as much my own safety, as it is the safety of everybody else. Yeah, no doubt, man. Yeah, I mean, I always say we got dealt this, we got dealt this curveball here and it's

just we gotta you know you gotta sit on a curveball and go opposite field or what you gotta do but you gotta you gotta we gotta all work on this together uh so it lasts uh less time because it's disruptive right like i don't know what is it like for Uh, are you able to do voiceover work and stuff from your home studio there? Yeah, I'm, I'm incredibly fortunate in the sense that I'm able to still work from home. Uh, I have remote broadcast capabilities and, um, there's a fully functioning studio here. So I'm very, very grateful for that. It's, um,

but it definitely is something that, you know, also in acknowledging there's a lot of people who aren't as fortunate and it's, they have, but you know, they have to stay home. So it's, again, it is sort of a community effort to check in on people to make sure that, that, um, the people are being taken care of, that people have access to resources. If they're food insecure or in any way, shape, or form, they need for things that we kind of band together and collaboratively and collectively make sure that everyone is taken care of in

the safest way possible. No, absolutely. Absolutely. So you're safe there in California right now, but let's bring you back to Toronto here. What, uh, like what neighborhood in Toronto did you grow up in? Um, no, I grew up actually right across the street from Northern secondary. I didn't like grow up, grow up right across the street from Northern secondary, but it was like, that was where the formative, I would say the formative years were. So whereabouts is that i should know that's like uh

uh uh eglinton and mount pleasant oh yeah okay okay uh i think anything north of saint claire is like barry so okay i got you that's uh oh shoot oh wow okay now i feel bad because i spent the majority of time like while i had a home there spent the majority of the time, like, while I had a home there, like, the majority of my other time was spent out in Scarborough. So Scarborough must have seemed like the moon to you. Like, I'll be honest, I've been to East York, you know, but Scarborough, yeah, that's like going to a whole different country. Oh, man, Scarborough is the place. Scarborough is the place.

Yeah. Big, big, big, big, big love for Scarborough. And every other place, every other neighborhood and borough of Toronto, but Scarborough is the place. You know, I will say Scarborough seems to produce most of the great musical talents. Like when I think about like, okay, Barenaked Ladies or Maestro Fresh West, I think Scarborough. Like, you know, where's the...

Debra Cox. Okay, yeah. Debra Cox, Kish, like that's the Mount Rushmore right there. Well, here's the thing. I can't technically claim Scarborough, but the overwhelming majority of my friends are in Scarborough. But I have friends in Rexdale and Brampton and Jane and Finch and Parkdale and Rex, you know, everywhere.

For sure, man. So give me the Kish origin story. Like basically help get me to the point where you rhymed the world in 80 days. You just loved hip hop and you had a talent. But second of all, one of the things that threw me in was the rhythmic nature of the way everybody was speaking. Because at that time, it was sort of becoming apparent, concurrent with that. It was becoming apparent to me that I was having trouble reading. And this was because later on,

I kind of came to realize I'm dyslexic. Right. So a lot of what actually aided me in rhyming and comprehending, um, words and organizing my thoughts and reading and so on and so forth, basically developing a much better relationship with language and written words and reading words, um,

was hip hop because hip hop is governed by things like all kinds of like meter cadence, structure, abstinence, alliteration, um, internal rhyme schemes, narratives that have the threaded narratives that have to be followed throughout the whole thing. So it's all these things that kind of govern things that for whatever reason, while I did struggle, enjoyed reading, but struggled with it was, for as much as I enjoyed prose, poetry of that nature was something that was,

it locked much more instantly into the way my relationship with language. And it, it helped me a lot, a lot. So throughout, throughout high school, you know, and I was also a B-boy, so I was breakdancing and stuff. But that relationship with it, I kept writing rhymes throughout high school. And throughout high school, met a bunch of friends. I went to North Toronto, which was kind of a crazy thing because Northern was literally right across the street. But I went to North Toronto.

I still to this day don't understand why. And I ended up, some of my closest friends to this day went to Northern. of ended up, you know, some of my closest friends to this day, um, went to Northern Big C, Mansa, um, DJ Supreme, who used to DJ for me, um, Thrust, uh, Corey, like there were just a lot of people, um, DJ X, I believe went to Northern briefly. Um, so there were a lot of people who, um, went through to Northern and that was where I ended up spending a bunch of time too. So I kind of went to school in North Toronto, but socialized amongst a bunch of other people from a bunch of other schools. Right.

So by my senior year in high school, you know, I was starting to kind of just question and wonder as many people do, like, what am I going to do after this because around that time and it's the thing I mean you know we grew up sort of concurrently like in that same era so it was like you know what an emphasis there was on going to as as Canadian parents are fond of saying to university not college right. There is a massive distinction between the two. They are the same thing. Yeah. What was that about, Kish? Like, I actually never felt I had a choice. Like, it was sort of like pounded into me.

Like, of course you go to university. And then I ended up going to university because I didn't even consider that I could do anything else. Right. And that was sort of exactly what you're articulating is the same sort of unspoken or let's be very clear, very clearly articulated pressure that parents put on people to say you will go to and preferably it was to one of the high so-called higher end colleges like Western or McGill or, you know, Queens or something like that. Right. At that time, if you were like, hey, yo, I'm going to Ryerson, people were like, people looked down on Ryerson.

Well, it was a polytechnical institute. Right. And again, that was something that, again, in being, certainly in being in the States for 20 years, and also just sort of gaining a hell of a lot more perspective about stuff is the distinction between university and college, quite honestly, is simply semantic.

There is no difference. So the Polytechnical Institute, I mean, Ryerson is all day. I will trumpet Ryerson's as in a fantastic school because it not only covered a lot of bases that the so-called, you know, Tweedy academic universities did not cover. They covered the bases that they did cover and frequently covered them better. Right. So it was, and it was down, it was in the core of downtown Toronto. So at that time, of course, being much different than it is now, it was an intensely

cosmopolitan place where it allowed students who went there to experience a much more multicultural cosmopolitan experience in addition to their educational background. Now, why Ryerson also fits very clearly into that narrative is Ryerson is the home of CKLN and CKLN as everybody in Toronto hip hop knows is like ground zero. I mean, all due respect to CIUT and CHRY, but CKLN was ground zero with the power move. Right. And the power move was a place that anyone who was anyone in the city went, tried to get down there to, you know, Ron Nelson's Fantastic Voyage, but then DJ X's power move show. And the object was to get down to that show.

And if not hang out, at least try it. They had like some kind of freestyle to get on the mic. at least try if they had like some kind of freestyle to get on the mic. So that was another sort of melting pot as I was coming up in high school where I would come through the power move and meet a lot of people that were, that again went on to, you know, do amazing and wonderful and great things. Um, but yeah, sort of to circle back. I'm sorry. This is a bit of a circuitous thing. No, no, no. I'm digging it.

Yeah. To circle back in the final year of high school, I was kind of going through this sort of existential thing as, as you touched on, but what am I going to do after this? Um, I didn't really particularly feel the pressure of going to college. Uh, the relationship with my father, who I lived with at the time was such that he wasn't kind of, you know, he had kind of a half-hearted sort of push towards it, but didn't seem terribly invested in pushing me and also gave me the distinct impression that if I wanted to go, I would have to pay for it. And I had zero interest in, you know, accruing tens of thousands of dollars of debt

when I wasn't clear what I wanted to go study. Right. So I got a job at a bank because I figured, you know what? of debt when I wasn't clear what I wanted to go study. Right. So, uh, I got a job at a bank cause I figured, you know what? Um, it's make it a break in time. I'm going to try and get a demo made and get signed.

This is of course at a time when getting signed meant something very different than it means now. Right. So at that time, uh, for us, who is, you know, every, he's, who is, you know,

every B's like the mayor, everybody knows who he is. For us, it was kind enough to, uh, take me up to Ron Nelson's studio. And Ron Nelson at the time in his basement had a studio that everybody passed through.

Missy passed through there. Maestro passed through there. The dream warriors went through there. K-Force, everybody. And it was really... I think that And Now The Legacy Begins was recorded in that studio. I recorded my first demo in the same studio. I should shout out Ron Nelson though. DJ Ron Nelson is an FOTM. He's been on the program. And yeah, that sounds like that was ground zero for

Toronto hip-hop. It absolutely was. Now, the interesting thing about that is Ron's place was unique for two reasons. Number one, it was one of the only studios where you could come in and you could record

stuff and everybody knew it. And he was magnanimous enough to open up his door to a lot of people. Like he was, it was not only did he had the guarantee he would record people, it was like he was doing something that literally no other studio in the city would do because nobody still saw hip hop as a viable art form. So he was instrumental not only in the process of recording it, but the act of giving young black men and women and young men and women of color

the opportunity to record where studios would outright not, they would be like, I'm not fucking doing it. Right. So Ron in many ways was instrumental, many, many ways, and ways beyond this. We haven't even touched on stuff like what he did in bringing acts to the concert hall, but, um, he was in many ways,

everyone owes a debt to Ron Nelson for doing that. Now the interesting thing about his basement though, was that, um, you went to the house and you went to the side door and you went downstairs to the basement and in the basement, you either went right or left. If you went right Ron had built out his studio if you went

left that was the beat factory studio so you went downstairs and there was this big graffiti mural that for some reason I've gasp paint for the entire years that I went there it was the only thing I'd ever,

I was like, man, this thing still smells like paint. What the hell is this? Um, but it was a dope ass mural. Right. But that was the thing.

So you got to the bottom of the stairs and if you went right, you went to Ron's and if you went left and it wasn't like a big spot, it was like a think low ceiling, regular ass basement that's been partitioned into two rooms. Right. That was quite literally what it was ron studio had like a mixing board with an sp 1200 and uh this vocal booth that i'm only five nine okay so when i stood in it i had no problem but if you were someone like k-force who's at six six one he would have to have been crouching a bit because it was like it was like a closet underneath the staircase so it had that angle kind of thing so you're like you're you're doing this like your vocals kind of hunched over

right um in the opposite room that was where big, big shout out to Richard Rodwell, AKA Maximum 60. That's where he was running his sessions off of a computer sequencer that I can't remember. But he was, he was doing a whole different setup, but his thing was the same thing. It was like he,

he had a, like Beat Factory had hits, but it's, Ivan had set, uh, maximum 60 up in that room. And I was coming in right at the time that, uh,

Mishy had recorded on this mic and victory is calling. Yeah. Um, and elements of style and, uh, the dream warriors were recording, you know, cause King Lou is on,

on this mic. He's doing backup vocals and ad-libs on it. Right. And King Lou and Capital Q were doing and now the legacy begins. And I remember Max was like, he was like, let me play something for you. And so he played me Watch Your Face in My Sink and My Definition. Wow. and so he played me wash your face in my sink and my definition

and I was like you know like everybody right when you first heard it you were like I like it but what the hell is it this is bananas what is this and he was just smiling and saying yeah those guys are genius

and you know to his credit both King Lou and Capital Q are absolute geniuses. Yeah, so that was, so I went in there and using my little bank seller salary, I funded a demo tape, recorded a bunch of songs, and met up with Farley Flex through his brother, Francis. Francis, a couple of years ago, sadly passed away very suddenly.

Sorry to hear that. Yeah, Francis is one of the most wonderful human beings you could ever meet. But Francis introduced me to Farley. Farley, of course, at that time was managing Maestro. Okay, quick shout out to FOTM Farley Flex. He's been, by the way, when you described that basement and you mentioned at 5'9", you could stand up in the recording booth, I was thinking it's a good thing you're in California right now

because if you were where you're supposed to be, sitting right across from me, you would not be able to stand actually in the Toronto Mike Studios here in the basement. Oh, it has that same slanted wall? It's got this one, I don't know how, I think it's about five feet wide, this one part where there's duct work up there that drops to like five. I want to say if you're 5'7", you might be okay, but that would be it.

But it's just this one part, and that's the only space that was left in the house for the studio. So I built my studio right under that. So essentially when I have guys like, I get like a quick aside, but if I have somebody like a Leo Rowden's down here, man, he needs plenty of warning and he's practically on his knees when he's

trying to get into this. But Farley flex is a, you know, he's too tall for this basement, but he was, uh, you know, once you get them sitting down,

it's all good, But continue, please, with the Farley Flex, because yes, he was managing Maestro Fresh West at that time. Right. Farley was managing Maestro and he also was managing another extraordinarily talented rapper that, again, you have to sort of have known,

been there and known it, a young woman named Dee Shan. known, you know, been there and known it, a young woman named Dee Shan. But I got introduced to Farley, and Farley was like, huh, okay, I like this.

Let's see what we can get. Let's see the interest we can get. Farley had an, now to sort of, again, to sort of take a quick sort of aside to sort of set this up. No, dude, had an, uh, uh, now to get sort of, again, to sort of take a quick sort of aside to sort of set this up. No, dude, I'm loving this detail. Keep it coming. Okay. As everybody knows, Maestro got his deal because he performed on electric circus and CBB,

who was like what they call a freestyle artist. Um, he, he had performed and he'd seen Maestro. Right. Stevie B was affiliated with LMR Records. Right. And Wes, of course, you know, we all were trying to get in the door at some record label. But, you know, I mean, I think enough time has passed and enough sensibility has been gained and enough, you know, of the exposure to understand that the megastar that Drake is.

Yeah, I mean, at that time, even Drake would be the first person who meant like, yeah, nobody from any of the Canadian labels ever wanted to pull the trigger on any act at all, period. They all wanted to. They liked the idea of saying they would. They never did. They never did.

So the West signed a deal with LMR Records They never did. They never did. So, the... Wes signed a deal with LMR Records. And the deal was for, I believe, again, Wes probably could have cracked me on this one. And I was just talking to him yesterday because yesterday was his birthday. Oh, happy birthday to Coach

Fresh. Coach, he's been over a couple of times on Toronto Mic'd, but he kicked out the jams for episode 416. That's how highly I regard him. Yeah, so happy birthday, Maestro. Yeah, that's my man right there. We still talk at least a couple of times a week. Well, that's great to hear.

I'm going to play just to tease it, because soon we'll get to some jams here. But, of course, I do have loaded up a certain jam with maestro and kish so that's coming soon that's dope okay um there's actually one that if you have loaded up with me west and uh daniel what's it called that one the uh the vapors remix that one is pretty crazy right there. Okay, I'll see what I can do. That one's pretty crazy. But that one's dope. Because Daniel was another person.

Shout out Daniel. Daniel was like family to me. He is my brother. That is my dude. One of the kindest, nicest, and also most dangerous MCs I've ever known, period. So anyway, to get back to the story. West side to the LMR, because of course no, of course, no Canadian labels are messing with hip-hop. Backbone starts to blow up, and Attic Records jumps on the single to be the distributor in Canada.

Now, A&M distributed Attic at that time. distributed attic at that time. So with West's record blowing up, Farley had a pre existing relationship by dint of, you know, West's record blowing up with everything in the A&M family because A&M at that time individually was considered a major label. Right. Um,

so we went into A&M and they played the demo and they kind of made some interesting requests about how they wanted it to happen. And, you know, we all kind of said, no, we kind of think we know what we're doing. You don't sort of tell a bread maker how to make bread or a plumber how to fix your pipe. Could you share like any specifics? Like what were they messing with there? These are things that are like you know what, the time passed. I'm kind of like man, if people still butthurt

about this one, they can go ask themselves. Right. And I'll tell it from as much of an objective standpoint as possible so it doesn't sound like it's defensive or a battle. They heard the demo and one of the things that came back was But they heard the demo. And one of the things that came back was, well, you know what's really hot right now?

It's the environment. Is there something he could do? Could he do a rap about the environment? And I was like, and I remember sitting with Farley. And Farley is doing everything he can not to suppress outright laughter, right? But I'm sitting with Farley afterwards, and I said, listen, nobody cares more about the environment than you and I. At which, of course, Farley burst out laughing. But I go, but for real, for real, I don't know that this is the determinant factor upon which we should get signed. And he was like, he was like,

he always used to call me Shino. He'd say, Shino, Shino, Shino, Shino, Shino. I got this. I'll handle it. So we surmounted that obstacle and gently coached them into the, you know, the, the, into the sort of, why don't we put the environmental song in the maybe pile? And then we'll stick to the shit that we were going to do originally. How about that? But Kish, I'm thinking like at that

time, did they want you to do a rap about acid rain or Amazon rainforest stuff? Like I'm trying to think of what the, at the time, we were like obsessed with, you know, acid rain and yeah, in preserving the Amazon rainforest. It's so bizarre.

Like anyway, that was, that was precisely what they wanted it about, which was really, really unsettling. And I was like, you know, there's not, I mean, again, I know it's, I don't want to curse it successfully. There's not a lot of faces when you get an expression that can be mistaken for the expression that says, why't you go fuck yourself but that is the expression that i had on my face and i was doing my best to to cover it and be like be nice just acknowledge it and just you know do one of those things where you kind of put your your you know your thumb on your chin and you kind of squint and nod and go i've done many of those absolutely Absolutely. I know that move. And you just, and you let it go

and you're like, you know what? It's not important. Don't judge their idea here. Just go and do what the hell you were going to do. So that was, that was kind of, you know, I had the G the unmistakable GFY expression and they, um, you know, they, whatever, they kind of took that kind of personally, I guess. And that kind of started the, you know, from the very jump, it started initially, there were a few people who were kind of sour because, you know, they, whatever, they kind of took that kind of personally, I guess. And that kind of started the, you know, from the very jump, it started initially there were a few people who were kind of sour because, you know, nothing be so great as the ego of somebody who works at a record label. So when you don't, when you tell them they don't know what they're doing,

it's like, you know, it's like you would have said like, you know, you need to fix the left ventricle, not the right ventricle to a heart surgeon. Like that's kind of the level of insult they take right so we we executed the deal which was a terrible terrible deal um and commenced recording the album and again because the pre-existing relationship with barley i did the first record with peter Anthony Davis, who, again, love those guys. They're like brothers and family to me, and they are extraordinarily talented producers. Love those people.

Kish, you went down to the studio with Pete and Anthony to lay down the beat. That is exactly it. Just like Mike says, went to the studio with Pete and Anthony. Yeah, and that was exactly it. And they had moved their studio from Don Valley down to, well actually they kept it there, they had another facility that was downtown very close to where Much Music ended up, 299 Queen.

Right, Queen and Gemini. Right, and so I think the studio was on Peter Street. So we went, um, we, we did the album there. Uh, uh, Chin and Jetty was also involved in that album. Uh, Chin is an incredible musician and an absolutely wonderful, beautiful human being. Um, and has worked with like Dr. Dre and Eminem,

like an extraordinarily successful really wonderful person but he and his brother worked on that record too and we just knocked it out and they came down you know the executives came down and kind of nodded and gave back their kind of look at it

like I'm not sure what's going on here but I hope you know what the hell you're doing and the album was finished. Okay, pause. Now here. Oh. Go ahead. Don't forget where you are

because I don't want to lose any part of the story because I'm interrupting. But it's now a decent time. I'm going to play the big hit, and we're going to let it breathe a bit. This is actually the perfect time to play that because it was what I was about to say will go off of that. Okay, let's get a taste here, and then I'll bring it down. But I am going to let this breathe a bit. This is actually the perfect time to play that because it was what I was about to say will go off of that.

Okay, let's get a taste here and then I'll bring it down. But I am going to let this breathe a bit because honestly, it still bounces around my head. I don't know how many decades later, but here we go. I'm going on a voyage to roam the globe as I roam my return After a long journey home from nation to destination It ain't a vacation, so let me bust a conversation Time spent as I went globe-trapping

So I grabbed a pen and the rhymes I started jotting. Tales of turn of a trip that were made to a maze. I roamed the world in 80 days. Okay, first question, just bringing it down a bit. Whose voice am I hearing right now? That is a woman by the name of Maddie Willis, who came

in and knocked that out in one take. She's spectacular. Very tight sweater Wait, it gets better Small talk, let's take a walk I gave her eyes afire She told me you're my one desire Let's share champagne and rain showers Catch the sunrise over the Eiffel Tower Yvette, don't take it as a diss But I'm gonna miss you Please don't cry, here's a tissue I'll be back, you'll always be in my heart

But you know, I've got to go Cause I'm gonna make sure we don't talk over the Next stop, the motherland. But that's the, by the way, that's the line. I just blurted it out almost like somebody with Tourette's or something. I just blurted that line out all the freaking time. It's coming up.

Hold on. Rhymes are set, razor sharp Ready to battle any suck who starts up Got out the mic, loaded up and tested Cool, and busted out the bulletproof vest Ready to roll and I'm strapped Wait a minute, double check Forgot the baseball hat Taken some pics but I was spotted An agent, the KGB, yo they're on it He was ready to step but I was settin' It was my move next and I had one move left Play it cool and I passed him Turned around, drive down, pulled out my mic to mash him He ran down an alley and I lost him So I ran faster, bionic style like Steve Austin Turned a corner, hit an ambush, translation Russians, waiting on a bump rush, nowhere to go

And they jumped me, tied me up, and dumped me in the back of a truck I was taken, they were shaking me up with a joint With a gun up my head to reinforce the point And they said, you better leave, I said, there ain't no way I looked at the gun and i said well okay but as i got on the plane to break out of the place i said hey remember the face because i'll be back to attack and this you can know but i've got to go cause all right we're coming back whose voice did i hear somebody uh there's a oh that's farley that's farley on the ad lib i thought so because that's also farley who's going to ask if you went to Africa, right? That's Farley. Yeah.

That's true, yeah. Oh, it's... Oh, yeah. Sorry, this is where the DJ has to talk to the crowd here during the break here. We're going to let this finish and then we're going to talk about it,

but do you have any shame at all? Are you proud of this song, hearing it now? I don't know. Why would I know? Absolutely not. Oh, here it is. I know I only asked that just to make sure because you should be damn proud of this, man. This thing is an earworm. Like I said, I remember I was a big much music watcher at the time and this was on high rotation and I never got tired of this jam.

This thing is great. So you should be proud. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, it's funny because a lot of people do have problematic relationships with early material but I'm like I'm incredibly

incredibly grateful to have been not only a part of you know with that song to be a part of songs that are kind of entrenched in that time but also to be a part of the hip hop community coming up and still to be involved with it. So,

I mean, I'm, I'm not only grateful, but very proud of that. Okay. Now I need to ask you that part that, uh, I promised I wouldn't talk over and then ended up talking over it.

So, uh, next stop, the motherland, yo, kiss you into Africa. Nah, Japan. Nah, Japan.

Okay, so here's the deal. Now, the first version that we did of that song, because here's the thing. At that time, it's pretty evident that one of my primary influences was Big Daddy Kane. Right. But the first version of that record is actually the B side of the single,

which is if you, if you're somebody who has the very rare 12 minutes, because it was another story about how we had to go to war because they didn't want to press the vinyl. The B side of that record was the original version that we made. The A side with Maddie Willis singing on it was the version that came again as another kind of knockdown drag out where they said, you can't have a record on the radio that doesn't have singing on it. Now, mind you, okay, at this point, you had records like Special Eds I Got It Made, EPMD's So What You Sayin', obviously Missing Me and me in la love uh on this mic um and most notably maestro fresh west uh let you back on the slide now they said well we said that's not true they

said they said the biggest rhythm being real smug and they said like you know the big your little friend maestro like his record has singing all over the chorus. And we had to like sort of rub our temples and say, you do realize that that's a sample and it's from a song called Set It Off. Right, right. It's not people, like, yeah, it is people singing, but it is locked into the culture of hip hop

where it's like on the left, on the right, that is from from that's a well that was a hook from set it off so for them not to even know that and then lay the law down and saying you don't get it it's the even the the illusion that's made is different the illusion is to a known thing, a known quantifiable thing as opposed to, oh yeah we're singing, you know, we're making up a hook, which is all part of hip-hop, you know what I mean? It's like, so that was, we were trying to explain this to them and they were like not hearing it because even

from a technological aspect they didn't understand the process of sampling and what was happening at that time. So they said, either you make, in parentheses, the version that you hear right now that you just played, or we're scrapping the whole album. So Farley kind of pulled me outside, and very wisely, very wisely, because

obviously in that moment, I was a little hot. Like you could hear sort of the intake of me going, like I was about to like say something real stupid. Okay. Of the time I got, sorry, you complete the story there. I'm sorry. And then I got to ask you, I got to, I got to ask you about the role of race and all this. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. So, um, Farley called me outside and he said, again, she knows he's like, she knows don't make a short term emotional decision that will affect your longterm legacy.

Wise words. And I was like, if I had not listened to him in that moment the whole thing would have been different so i credit farley flex greatly with saying that too wise words simmered a lot of anger off but went back in and said fine we'll go back and we'll record something so we recorded something and the version that you hear now is the version that was the final version. Again, if you have that B-side of the record, you hear the other one, and that one sounds more like, again, because my pride, and, you know, everybody,

we were all fans of Marley Mock. So the way the rhyme is, is suited to the beat, and the beat sounds more like something like Set It Off or Raw by Big Daddy Kane. Right. So even the reminiscent part, because this is the whole thing, there's a little part that's in the version that you hear

where it's like, that comes in that's like a little sort of a thing. It's like a whistle in the version that you just played. When you hear that, it's like, that's the same element we snuck in that was like, that's that same Big Daddy Kane kind of thing. Like that's that same kind of noise that we wanted to hearken to that. Yeah.

That was, yeah, that was like a big thing. Okay. So at the time, and if my time, my timeline's right, are we talking like 1990? Tell me if I'm off. That's exactly it. Okay. That's exactly a big thing. Okay, so at the time, and if my timeline's right, are we talking like 1990?

Tell me if I'm off. That's exactly it. That's exactly it, 1990. The record came out in like March of 91. A big hit, a big US hit, belonged to the, well, at the time, he was Marky Mark, right? Right, yep.

So you had Good Vibration was a monster hit. Yep. Mark, you might not know this, but Marky Mark is a white guy. He's a white guy. And they got this rap song, but there's this heavy musical, you know, there's a great singer on there. I can't remember who's singing on there, but that's kind of the great hook and he rhymes through and stuff.

And then, you know, you got your I Rhyme the World in 80 Days. And I had a note from somebody who I'll keep anonymous, I Rhymed the World in 80 Days. And I had a note from somebody, who I'll keep anonymous, who said that it was almost like you were the vanilla ice to Maestro Fresh West's MC Hammer. Okay?

I'm wondering now, you're, you know, the motherland was Japan. So you're of Japanese descent. Is that right? What is your, you identify as? Japanese and British. I would... So you're of Japanese descent. Is that right? What is your, you identify as? Japanese and British.

I would, I certainly, again, I don't, I don't think take umbrage or, or sort of feel whatever at the, if somebody saying like, you know, saying that that was that I was the vanilla ice, the maestro's hammer. Right. And again, no, no, because one thing here's the thing, is the Vanilla Ice, the Maestro's Hammer. And again, no disrespect to Hammer, because one thing, here's the thing, another not-so-diverse-to-a-whole-other-side story is,

being out in Cali, I'll tell you this much. People who like, people who like to, or grew up in our era who took shots at Hammer, you have no idea who Hammer really is. That dude is not to be played with. He is not, he, run your mouth the wrong way about that guy, there's gonna be

issues. That guy is, he is serious. Like, people will say, anyone who thinks that I'm, you know, talking out my ass or whatever, go look at the YouTube interview, the DJ Vlad interview of Redman talking about MC Hammer. And Redman is a guy who doesn't feed enough right to anybody.

Right. But Redman talking about Hammer, Redman's like, he will tell you. So first of all, there's a grave misunderstanding about who Hammer is really. Sure. Secondly, I think that the comparison of me, because again, this is something that a particular VJ

of Much Music caught the wrath over that. I'm dying to know who that is. Yeah. I'm not going to dignify by saying her name. She's just the kind of person who you narrowed it down by assigning a gender there I think I know who it is now

but yeah me being Vanilla Ice to West of Hammer that must be the person that must not have been somebody who was going to places like the, you know, concert hall and the, you know, the Rivoli live at the barbecue jams and all that, because we all cut our teeth in those venues. The records that we put out were the records that we put out. That was, yeah, it's not, it's, again, it's not something that I bristle at the comparison because I think that I'm defensive about it because obviously Rob Van Winkle went through his own personal journey, which was arduous and difficult. better way of putting it to be glibly dismissive or reductive in that sense to say that we were

those people i think fails to understand the context of the the scene itself the struggle that all everybody went through to get signed and put music out and the lasting effect of the foundation that paved the way for artists like um victoria lane uh drake um you know pretty much basically everybody who came out of canada afterwards and again i would not say i'm in no way saying oh i'm responsible for that but i'm saying i'm a small brick in the foundation that made that possible for sure much greater foundation for sure for sure for sure. And I did take note though in that rhyme I still drop all the time about no Japan. It's an interesting line because it's sort of rap was, you know, you were asserting yourself as identifying as Asian, essentially, as Japanese Canadian.

Correct. And it's a very notable line. Like there's many lines that you can drop, many lines from that particular rap. But I would argue that you tell people that Kish is coming on the show and they think of I Rhyme the World in 80 Days and the line that jumps out most often is, yo, Kish, you went to Africa?

No, no, Japan. I think that is the line that is probably most remembered in 2020. Absolutely. Still is. That was kind of the thing where it was like for many vectors, it was one of those things that

in trying to get that across in a not so subtle kind of like heavy-handed or ham-fisted way. But there were still, you know, again, the issue that I have with one of the VJs and then additionally, um, you know, there were people who said like, you know, he's his white dude. And again, not to get it into a reductive kind of, uh, paradigm, but every other place that I have gone in the world, again, to extend, you know, behind the world, they quit. Like every other place that I have gone in the world, again, to extend that to, you know, behind the world,

like every other place that I've gone in the world, nobody ever makes the assumption right away that I'm white. That's never been. In fact, you know, it's been everything from, you know, mixed Asian to Samoan to Brazilian to what, it's anything but that. It's abundantly clear. Right.

But for whatever reason, that was something that was a very, even the paradigm of discussing or interpreting race at that time was extremely binary. So it was either or. There was no differentiation. There was no, as we have today, there was no term of person differentiation there was no as we as we have today there was no term of person of color there was none of that right so even in the definition of those things it was it was and again i'm not a fan of the word problematic but it was problematic in that there was not space for other things to take place,

space for other people to exist. And for lack of a better way of putting it, it was white people who were pushing that narrative on there saying, yeah, because you're either this or this. There was no other sort of paradigm other than that. Anybody of any other race was like, no, we completely understand there's a myriad of other people out there with a myriad of life experiences,

cultures, races, the whole thing. But it was at that moment in time, it was a particularly binary and heavily kind of intellectually enforced thing that that was the case. Which is why when one of the

BJs on MuchMusic said something quite disparaging, which, and the only reason that it's ever really sort of stuck with me is because she said it within, I think it was 30 or 60 days that my father died. So, and my father was a survivor. The other reason why

it's like, you know, to sort of sum that, what I just said up, is like, my father spent a survivor the other reason why it's like you know to to sort of sum that what i just said up is like my father spent the majority of his childhood in a japanese prison camp in bc right so that's not that kind of you know ends the whole discussion right there like you know oh no whatever it's like i don't know that's something that they did to a lot of white people. Nope. Yeah. So, when she said that, to me it was the equivalent of spitting on my father's grave. I'm like, I'm not somebody who likes to hold grudges

because I don't think it's terribly constructive. But I will say that, you know, when experiencing that, it was kind of like yeah you and I need to have a discussion and this is where I would credit Denise Donlan uh tremendously because I wrote her a letter and Denise was incredibly compassionate very thorough and very direct in saying I not only agree with you, I am going to ensure that this is addressed to your satisfaction. Okay, good for Denise. That's great to hear,

because she was a fantastic guest on this podcast, and I'm glad that... Oh, Denise did, yeah. I have nothing but 100% love and respect for Denise Donlan. She was an absolute stand-up person and took as much, if not even more issue with it than I did. And I was like, you know what? I always, always, always, always, always will shine a light

on her for doing that. Do you know who Denise is married to? Hmm. Why do I... To change the channel, there's a here's I had to change the channel there's a little fun fact for you

if you can't recall I can help you out but Marie McLaughlin oh that's right that's right that's right

yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah tremendous amazing incredible songwriter and a Canadian icon see I had to bring you

back to your roots here because you you identify as Canadian still, right? Like you haven't been completely Americanized. No, I mean, you know, I'm absolutely, shoot, I rock, you know, rock the J's hat and the whole bit. Right.

Yeah, I mean, it's home. It's home. And you were rooting for the Raps against Golden State? Oh, of course. Just making sure. The added bonus is, because Golden State is San Fran, right? Everyone's like,

we got the Lakers and the Clippers. Man, Golden State, whatever. It's like how people in New York have begrudging respect or have begrudging respect of the New England Patriots they may set their jaw and get angry about it but they're like yeah

they're a really good team so yeah but yeah I mean to continue the narrative of what it was and to move out of that because it was like yeah the whole thing soured with, with making records in Canada.

In 99, I came to Los Angeles. Um, I got married and my then wife recommended that, um, because again, I, you know,

it was kind of unclear about where my career was going because that's been defined as, as a hip hop artist. Right. She said, well, you have all the studio experience. Why don't you take a bunch of voiceover classes?

Because that's what she was doing. So I was like, oh, okay. I kind of, you know, I'm familiar with the studio. I'm not intimidated by getting on a mic. We're ready to go. Let's try this. Can I do a little more from the rap stuff before we get to the Cali and talk about the voice stuff? Can I, because I did...

Okay, good, because I didn't want you to yada, yada, yada some good stuff there. So we talked about how the actress who played Kathleen, I would see her in the basement of HMB, and that's where I saw you back in like 1990 or something, when I Run the World in 80 Days was a

monster hit in this country. Now I'm going to play the follow-up. I'm going to play the follow-up song and then talk about the song in the video here. So here's a little more. This is from your first album, Order from Chaos. Dig this. Let the bass kick.

Who's singing this part? Uh I don't mean Okay Ladies, there's just too many to make a choice from I'll saddle up and bust a smooth voice on em Got em, let me buy a drink you sweet thing I kick gang cause yo, I like to swing Oops, turn around and bust a breath mint So you know my breath don't stink and I'm back What's your name again? You say you like your tie, I like what's in your dress

So let me put the body to a test Grab my hand and we'll say in the dance floor I'll show you what a pair of shoes are made for But what's this? Eyes are looking over in directions Scoping every bit of every bodily section Bet the next second she's gone, she's a flirt, let's do it. Also got plenty of ear plan munch music and was a great jam. In this video is an actress from Degrassi Junior High.

Right. Anias. Yes, Anias Granovski. Right, right, right, right. That was an interesting thing because there was, again, there was a war about that because

we wanted to have Tando in the video because she stung the hook. Right. And they were like, no, we want to have a bunch of like, you know, women made up looking like they're in a club. And without getting too deep into it, it came to another standoff where they were like, no, we want, you know, women. And again, this is no disrespect to the women in the video, but they wanted women who were made up in very alluring clothes and a lot of makeup type of thing. And I would say with all respect and love, that's not, Tando's an extraordinarily talented a beautiful woman but that's not her thing and I completely backed and respected that as Farley did as

everybody did but they were again on this whole thing of you either do this or it's not coming out because that was the threat every time right so I would say that I think collectively we all made an error in judgment and saying, and not standing our ground and saying, no, Tando's got to be in. And that was kind of something that, yeah, to this day, it's kind of like, yeah, she should have been in the video. She absolutely should have been in the video. So, yeah, that was kind of, was you know and again no disrespect to any of the women who were in the

video that they had no knowledge of that situation sure um it was just a back-ended thing that was i think symptomatic and emblematic of the time see i i love that you're uh delivering the real talk today because uh these are the behind the scenes things things that we had no idea about, right? We just think, like, it looks like you intentionally put a, you know, that was a popular show, Degrassi Junior High. And there's Lucy from Degrassi, right? And there she is in the video. So it just sounds like it's… Right. sounds like it's right and and and that was a whole thing where you know again they were trying to get as many like everyone was trying to cross collateralize as many things as they could with

many different shows they could pull as many different people in as they could and again doing it without paying anybody or giving anybody any money and it was oh, you're frigging killing it. So, yeah, that was the experience of making those records and stuff. It was like when I was with Peter and Anthony and Farley and West when we were touring. It's like those are amazing times. And when I was with everybody in the Toronto hip-hop community, those were amazing times. The industry of music is a very dirty, dirty business. So real talk, though. You mentioned it was a bad deal, right?

Because you used the words, I think, we took a bad deal. I mean, I don't have a great sense of how much fame and fortune comes from having Canadian hit singles but am i correct in assuming that these songs were not uh were not hits in the united states uh they got played but they weren't hit right um i'll simply sum up the entire thing because what i tell what i tell everybody with one very clear sentence okay uh to say, oh, you made all this money, you did all this, or what happened. In 2001, so 10 years after the album came out,

I received one royalty check for $194. Whoa, wait, okay. But this is obviously after this monster cash up front, right? Like they drove a Brinks truck. There was no monster cash up front. And you said $100,000. Wow. Wow. Amortized over 10 years. That's not a good per hour rate. that's not a good per hour rate. No,

no, sir. And, uh, you know, no, I, I just feel terrible because the,

the artists we produce are fantastic and you're producing, you know, work that people like me remember for decades. And we went and bought the, uh, the CD and we, we learned the words and it's, it sounds criminal to me. It, uh, kind of was without getting into,

you know, some things that would statute of limitations have passed, but you know, there's probably some people who, you know, they get a little bit of a hemorrhoidal flare up if I mentioned it. Well, you got to keep something for the sequel.

Yeah. Yeah. There were, there were things were done in the information that was not to close the quite lit that was quite honestly actionable because people had done things in a way that was like, Oh, this is kind of messed up.

So yeah, the, the, the net amount of money I made off of the album sales was $194. That's incredible. That's incredible. Yeah. Wow.

So then you understand why, you know, not only, you know, again, Cardinal, who, again, I have enormous respect for Cardinal. He is not only a tremendous philanthropist and humanitarian, but probably one of the most dangerous people on a mic you've ever seen. Sure. And a wicked performer live. mic you've ever seen and wicked performer lies um you know card now why drake why um tory lane socrates and he's in another discipline mike myers dan akroyd you know all people john candy uh rick moranis everybody leaves because they're like i I can't feed myself. Right. Right.

It ain't because I don't love it. It's because I can't feed myself. And you can't fault somebody for not wanting to be like, hey, listen, I got an analogy to not eating called starvation. Well, dude, I can't believe $191. It's almost insulting. I hope he didn't cash it. Like, did you frame it? Because having that not cashed and framed is worth more than $191, it's almost insulting. I hope he didn't cash it. Like, did you frame it?

Because having that not cashed and framed is worth more than $191. Yeah. You know, I think in hindsight, you're absolutely right. And in hindsight, I probably wish I had, you know, we had been speaking then because I think you saying that would have whatever. And you got to shine a light on that because, like, people need to know. Like, I, man, because Order from from chaos that was a lot of big hits but also i mean a nation of hoods different sound like a darker sound we can talk about that briefly before we get to la and here let me just uh play a little bit by the way by the way not to take that not to take that either yeah uh that was zero0 in royalties.

Wow. I'm just going to play a little Crates to Concrete before we get – then we're going to get you to Cali here, and I have a little bit of what you've been up to. But this was a jam. I can't believe $0. Man, okay. Crates to Concrete from the Nationhoods. But why the tone change?

Because the two albums sound pretty different in terms of tone. Different production. Kind of had a little more... I think that the production at the time was skewing more towards that sound. And also, we wanted to stretch out and do things... I wanted to stretch out and do things kind of more in the lyrical aspect that had musical palettes behind it that wasn't the same as what, you know, being strong-armed on a today and now.

So that was kind of, I think in short, that would be the reason why the record sounds like that. But I mean, even that record had its challenges. I mean, DJ LTD was hospitalized at that time, the record sounds like that but i mean even that record had its challenges i mean uh dj ltd was hospitalized at that time and we had to break him out of the hospital to come in and mix the song because he was like you guys aren't mixing that song with like i'm mixing the song you're not mixing the song so we came and got him and wheeled him in in a wheelchair and he mixed the song in one night and then took him back in the morning without any Wow, wow

and he did the title track, he did Nation of It Quick shout out to hip hop head FOTM Ryan Walstat because he wrote me a note when he heard you were coming on and he said I feel like he wore a North Toronto CI hat in a video but maybe that was someone else but we're here to confirm

that was you, right? Yeah, I think it was a hat or a jacket. It was one of the two. Sure. Cool. It was one of the two. Good memory there from Ryan here. So I have no,

like I was going to ask you why you left the biz, but now to me, it's obvious. You've explained it. That's a raw deal. I think that's exploitive. Essentially, it's like slave labor, man. It sounds like something criminal went down, but you're being very careful there. I don't blame you for that either. But tell me about what life has been like since you moved in California and

took those voice classes. Tell me what you've been up to. Well, I mean, I've been incredibly fortunate and grateful to have a second career as a voiceover actor so you know since 2002 2003 that's exclusively all I've been doing I've had the good fortune to be on a bunch of different animated series like The Regular Show Steven Universe Clone Wars Lion Guard Amazing Spider-Man um shoot some big titles there though those are some monster titles yeah very very grateful for that

in fact also Forrest Whitaker and I did a joint performance of Saw Gerrera in Jedi Fallen Order the new video game Star Wars Jedi Fallen Order right because you do a bunch of video games so you're not only doing these animated series but you show up do a bunch of video games. Not only are you doing these animated series, but you show up in a lot of video games.

Yeah, shoot. Bullet Storm, Batman, Arkham Knight, Jedi Fallen Order, Days Gone. There's a bunch that I'm missing, but yeah. Sure. Very, very grateful for that too.

Now, Kish, I did pull a clip just to let, for those listening who only know you from the two albums you released before you left Canada for California, I did pull a little clip kind of to give everyone a taste of some of the voiceover work you've been doing. So this thing is about 18 seconds, but here you go. Now for this ultimate gamer.

Desperate times call for desperate measures. What is that ringing? Do I have a tumor? From 20th Century Fox, a comedy that proves you're never too old to come of age. I can hear my hair growing. Grandma's Boys.

Opens Friday at theaters everywhere. So you're one of those voice guys. Yeah, I did. There was a bunch of trailer campaigns that I did too, which is kind of fun. Yeah, so it's a lot of fun to do that, to be in the booth still doing that stuff. And one of the things I think that's really,

I'm also incredibly grateful for about what I do is, because I think it's sort of a necessary counterpoint to describing the stuff with the record industry, because as a palate cleanser, I think it's important to also remember that it's very difficult to not discuss that stuff without discussing difficult things, but simultaneously to walk a line where it doesn't seem like I'm still embittered about that. And to be quite honest, I'm not. Um,

it's one of the greatest things that you can do is to learn from those experiences and accept them for what they, for what they are and move on and find joy where you can find it. One of the worst things that you can be in the world is to be somebody who, and again, I'm not, I mean, this is no disrespect to even anybody who may even come on your show, would be like, oh man, I hated that record, that was a terrible record, you know, blah, blah, and I'm embarrassed of it, whatever, it's like, that's such an awful way to to to live is to say listen that was me at that time I remember those times the good parts of those

times fondly I have I thinking about Toronto makes my heart get bigger and to to to shine and thinking about the people who I love who are involved in making the music. When I think about those wonderful moments of creation and the time that we spent together, nothing makes me happier. Nothing makes me happier. It's really important to stress that the most critical thing, life lesson that I learned was that these momentary things that caused me pain are actually to my benefit if I understand and build from them. Not from a place of spite or vindictiveness, but to understand, wow, you were tough enough to get through that and to move on.

And now you can laugh about it. And you learn something from it, right? Like it's like, fool me once, shame on you, you right like you've learned and grown absolutely because accountability is everything if you spend your life blaming other people for other stuff all the time it's like well first of all it's not a productive strategy but second of all you're a pain in the ass to be around and if you're somebody who operates from a sense of gratitude for everything that you walk through, then you get a better idea. You learn a greater sense of accountability for your actions and go, I can make better decisions. I can be a person who I want to be now. And now when I go through all the things that I go through now with voiceover and thank God, it's a much more regulated kind of area of the industry where there's, you know, contracts that are signed that are all predetermined by SAG after the union.

And they actually pay you. They pay you and they pay you on time. And you are surrounded by people who find joy in what they do. And I've been able to make music now at will with not having to answer to anybody. And those are the things that I go, because for a long time I didn't feel like making music. And now to return to it and say, it's so important. I had to say to myself, it's so important to remember what you loved about the music, not about the experience that made you upset. Right. Because there's always going to be people who are going to do you wrong.

Or like, you know, you're going to feel as though you got a raw deal on something. That's always going to happen. You have to have faith in yourself that you're stronger, strong enough to overcome those circumstances and to move on past that. Because otherwise that experience in those people and that time, it owns you. Right. And that's the most dangerous frigging place you can ever,

because there's still people that I know about. We're still trying to live and recreate that time. And also angry at people that, you know know they didn't get money from whatever and it's like you're missing the opportunity to live right now in this moment right now how would somebody listening to us right now hear some uh new kish probably the one that i would say even, you know, and even just sort of like, you know, to the perfect sort of, uh, bookend on that is, you know, it is on Spotify and, um, uh,

iTunes and title and soundcloud. It's on all major platforms on YouTube. Even just the song I did recently in the past couple years, Mantra, really kind of is all about that. It's about that level of personal growth of saying it's something that I say to myself every single day. It's like, listen, you're on a mission. You don't need to teach anybody anything. All you need to do is make yourself to take care of yourself and make yourself happy. Those are the things that are important because now at the point of the

journey that I'm in right now, um, both from, you know, a mature adult standpoint and a creative standpoint, it's like, again, it would be reductive to say,

well, I don't give a fuck about anything. I do what I want. It's not that it's, I care't give a fuck about anything. I do what I want. It's not that. I care very deeply about what I do want to do, and I don't have very much time for things that I don't want to do. Kiss, do you ever visit Toronto? The last time I was in Toronto was actually only a couple months ago

because unfortunately my mother passed away. Oh, I'm sorry, man. I'm sorry to hear that. Yeah, so it was a very sudden trip. still because unfortunately my mother passed away. I'm sorry, man. I'm sorry to hear that. So it was a, it was a very sudden trip. Um, I was very sorry that I couldn't, uh, see everybody, but obviously circumstances prevented that. Um, and it was, as you can imagine, it was a very bittersweet homecoming. So, um, what I kind of promised myself was that I would come back, you know, again, this was prior to everything happening. I was going to say the normal times, right? The good old days.

Right. Right. When things settle is to come back and to see everybody and to give everybody I love a great big hug and to spend a lot of time and reestablish those bonds. Because, again, I speak to people from Toronto who I love and care about all the time, all the time. I maintain very fluid, very current communication with a lot of people in Toronto. Well, it's great to hear, man. So next time you're here when this pandemic is behind us and we've come through it and you're visiting friends, let me know and I'll hook you up with some Great Lakes beer and Palma pasta. I owe you. Oh, listen. Yeah. The pasta, you and I are getting barbecue pasta. I'm also down for it. I don't drink, but I'm all about the pasta,

all about barbecue. You and I are getting something to eat for sure. Okay, awesome. And then we can finally get the photo together. You might be the first, you might be the very first, first time guest that I did remotely. I try not to do this, but the pandemic took me out of the comfort zone there because I like to have you sitting right there. And then I could give you your sticker you sticker. It's a Toronto Mike sticker and you could slap that on your boom box. Man, you know what? We'll do a part two and we'll do a part two and we'll bet on it and we will catch up and we will do that. Absolutely. I love it, man. Thanks so much, Kish, for doing this. That was a fantastic conversation. I really appreciate it. Man, likewise. And thank you

so much for taking the time and also being accommodating because I had a last minute computer glitch. So thank you. Hey, listen, take care and heal up your wrist. I hope you're feeling better soon. Oh, thanks, man. And stay safe. We'll get through this. It's not a fun time, but when this is all said and done, I think it'll be a great period of growth for everybody and we'll be better off for having

persevered here. Agreed. And that brings us to the end of our 608th show. You can follow me on Twitter. I'm at Toronto Mike. Kish is at Big underscore Kish. Our friends at Great Lakes Brewery are at Great Lakes Beer.

Palma Pasta is at Palma Pasta. Sticker U is at Sticker U, and the Keitner Group are at the Keitner Group see you all next week I wanna take a streetcar downtown This podcast has been produced by TMDS and accelerated by Rome Phone. Rome Phone brings you the most reliable virtual phone service to run your business and protect your home number from unwanted calls. Visit RoamPhone.ca to get started.