Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Leonard Cohen's Sex, Zen and Rock 'n Roll: Toronto Mike'd #946

Episode Date: November 9, 2021

Mike chats with author Michael Posner about volume two of his Leonard Cohen trilogy, covering Leonard's life from 1971 until the late-80s. Michael calls his book "Untold Stories: From The Broken Hill", I prefer the title "Sex, Zen and Rock 'n Roll".

Toronto Mic is brought to you by the Yes We Are Open podcast, a Moneris podcast production. Telling the stories of Canadian small businesses and their perseverance in the face of overwhelming adversity. Subscribe to this podcast at yesweareopenpodcast.com Welcome to episode 946 of Toronto Mic'd. Proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery. A fiercely independent craft brewery who believes in supporting communities, good times and brewing amazing beer. Order online for free local home delivery in the GTA. Chef Drop. Access top chef and restaurant prepared meal kits shipped across Southern Ontario.

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Enjoy the taste of fresh homemade Italian pasta and entrees from Palma Pasta in Mississauga and Oakville. Ridley Funeral Home. Pillars of the Community Since 1921, and Mike Majeski of Remax Specialists Majeski Group, who's ripping up the GTA real estate scene. Learn more at realestatelove.ca. I'm Mike from torontomike.com, and joining me this week for Volume 2 of our Leonard Cohen Deep Dive

is Michael Posner. Welcome back, Michael. Thank you so much. Nice to be back. I guess it was about a year ago when we first met, when we were talking about the first volume of the Leonard Cohen trilogy, Volume 1. Today, we get to cover Volume 2. And I guess, is it fair to say if we're both healthy and able, we'll do this again in about a year? God willing.

That's the plan, right, Sam? But before we dive into Leonard Cohen, which I can't wait to talk to you, again, another fantastic deep dive into the life of Leonard Cohen. But I'm still waiting, my friend for Anne-Marie to make her Toronto Mike debut. You know she's very circumspect about her life in retirement and you know not easy to change her mind. She'd be great if you could get her but she's a woman of firm convictions I thought I'd bust your chops a little about that only because

of course you're friendly with Anne she's been the subject of some Michael Posner prose in the past and I know last time we talked you were going to reach out and then it didn't happen but it sounds like I'm going to have to maybe book a good tea time at the golf course.

I think I did reach out to her and she kind of... You did, my friend, no. Didn't express a great deal of enthusiasm. She lacked the passion in the belly for the Toronto Mic podcast, but I'm glad you're here. Thank you. I'm glad I'm here too. And a quick question came in for you.

So Andrew Ward is a FOTM. He's a friend of Toronto Mike. He's been listening for years and he loved your first appearance. And when he heard you were coming back, he sent me a note. So I'll just read it verbatim here. But he writes, can you ask him to compare and contrast the Cohen project against his fine and revelatory study of Mordecai Richler? Cohen project against his fine and revelatory study of Mordecai Richler. The storytelling and anecdotes from Last Honest Man were hilarious, biting, and full of color, just like Richler. Also, will this be developed into a film or a TV documentary?

Okay, two questions. A film documentary, maybe. You know, I think it's not an easy thing to do. I mean, you would think that Leonard Cohen could be the subject of a biopic. There have been documentaries, there have been a couple. One about him and Marianne that came out a couple years ago. There will be eventually more stuff. I don't know if it'll be based on my books or other people's books, but definitely interest in him is not going to fade away. And I would think that there would be probably an attempt to make a definitive documentary and maybe an attempt to kind of fictionalize, not fictionalize, but make some drama out of aspects of his life. That I could see happening down the road. As for Richler, well, it's an interesting comparison.

I mean, for Leonard, you know, it just grew and grew and grew so that, you know, I'm now north of 550 interviews that I've done. And that doesn't include individuals with whom I've conducted multiple interviews or, you know, hundreds of emails and all that kind of stuff. Richler was a relatively elementary exercise compared to Leonard. I did interview, I think, 120 or maybe 150, not more than that. And there were lots of amusing tales about him, which I included in the book. Leonard also is an amusing guy, but there are also lots of stories about his depression,

which are important because they are a fundamental aspect of his character and his personality. So those are important to deal with. So maybe it doesn't provide the laughs that the Richler book did, of his character and his personality. So those are important to deal with. So it may be, it's, it doesn't provide the laughs that the Richler book did. But, but hopefully it's a little more, it,

perhaps it, at its best, it might give us a sense of how complicated a guy Leonard was. And that was from Andrew. Thank you, Andrew. And for myself, because of course,

last time we chatted primarily about Leonard Cohen and that's going to be the bulk of this conversation as well because the new book it'll drop the title now and I'll do it again later but it's called Leonard Cohen untold stories colon from this broken hill volume two that's, it's available now, is that right Michael? Yes it is. Yes it is. Okay. And I did, I realized now we're not, I was going to show it to the audience and I realized that you're the audience.

You've probably seen it. That's a beautiful book cover, amazing. You've probably seen it before, okay. But I was doing a little, like, Michael Posner research. By the way, you have a struggle with the SEO universe, search engine optimization, in that there is a popular singer named Mike Posner.

I guess you're aware of this. Yep. I'm going to tap him for a loan, I think. And Mike chose to be a Mike. You've chosen to be a Michael. I went with Mike. Yeah, I've always been pretty much a Michael from adulthood, I guess. Well, I think you'd be taken more seriously as a Mike.

I feel like you take a Michael a little more seriously, possibly, than a Mike. Maybe. Yeah, I think that's a fair statement. It's like Leonard Cohen. I don't know if he was a Leo. I'm not sure he'd have such a gravita. But I feel like a Leonard. You take a Leonard seriously.

Well, in his youth, this is actually interesting, because in his youth he was known as Lenny. Lenny! And it kind of irked him, because he always had this kind of very, even as an adolescent, he had this kind of courteous, formal bearing. And Lenny just didn't go with the kind of character that he was. So, yeah, he actually wrote a poem about it, a bitter poem. It's You Can Call Me Lenny Now.

You know, it's a bitter poem. Yeah, it would be very different. I think your book, the tone might be slightly different with Lenny Cohen, I feel, than Leonard Cohen. Definitely. That was a great story from Leonard Cohen's youth. Here's a quick little tidbit about your youth that I was reading about.

You appeared in the film And No Birds Sing. Yeah, that's seen by about four people on the planet. I bet you there's a, the follow-up to Going Down the Road is a film that my friend Peter Gross appeared in. And I guess it hasn't been seen by many people. A lot more than And No Birds Sing. Okay, but what's interesting,

so you're right, I haven't seen And No Birds Sing. But what's interesting so you're right i haven't seen and no birds sing but what's interesting is that you actually won a canadian film award for best supporting actor in a non-feature at the i guess this is the 21st canadian film awards in 1969 like you were recognized for your performance in this what is it a movie i'm i'm it was a movie it was it was a i would call it a featurette that is to to say, I think it's only about 35 minutes long. It was made at the University of Manitoba in the late 60s. I was a student there, a professor of English who's now deceased. Sadly, Victor Cowie was the director. He had film

aspirations and he wrote the script. The title comes from a John Keats poem and it's about unrequited love. And I played, I played sort of the second male lead, a kind of goofy nerdy guy, basically what I am. And, and, and yes, I did. I, in fact, it's sitting on a mantle over about five feet from me. Wow. That award. And you never pursued acting. Like you'd think with that kind of a, you know, in the late 60s, you're a very young man.

I would think you would continue to act, but you turned to writing. I think the reality is, I'm going to be brutally honest here, is that I didn't have much talent. I had zero training. Whatever talent I had was kind of instinctive. And maybe I could have developed it. But it didn't seem like the right path for me. saying this is like volume two of a three-volume series, both the book, which people should buy and read, but also the Toronto Mic'd episodes with Michael Posner, because this book is volume two from this broken hill. But if people are interested in volume one on Toronto Mic'd, they need to go back to episode 744. And here's the description I wrote at the time. It's very simple. I wrote, Mike speaks with Leonard Cohen. Oh, I see. I was reading. What did I write? I spoke of Leonard

Cohen. That would be impossible. Mike speaks with Leonard Cohen, Untold Stories, the early years author, Michael Posner about Leonard Cohen. And that was a good hour we chatted. And we're going to have another good chat about this second volume. It's the second volume of your book, We chatted and we're going to have another good chat about this second volume. It's the second volume of your book. Michael takes us from like 1971 until the late eighties and sort of mid 86. Okay. Um,

now it's a great read. I was going through it and realizing that you could have called this volume two, you could have called it, uh, sex, Zen and rock and roll, but like not necessarily that order. But to me, it's like called it sex, zen, and rock and roll, but like not necessarily that

order. But to me, it's like there's a, and we're going to kind of go through each category again, not necessarily in that order, but Leonard Cohen, there's his love life, which is, I think that's the biopic, I feel like the Leonard Cohen's love life. There's the rock and and roll we're going to talk about you know hallelujah etc and of course there's um zen uh zen buddhism which is a key part of this phase of his life but can we start if you're okay can we begin by talking about leonard and his woman sure we can talk about whatever you want that title you suggested um yeah, that's very appropriate. That would have worked as well. Maybe it would have been a better title.

Well, that'll be the title of this episode, maybe. Okay. Sex, Zen, and Rock and Roll. Now, okay, so again, we did touch on this last time, but it really comes out in this book.

But Leonard and His Woman, he hopefully will hear you speak to this but of course i mean i'm reading about jody mitchell's bum and then i'm i'm having it it's compared to the you know suzanne elrod's bum of course uh there's nannies there's multiple nannies involved uh how would you summarize uh the the love life of Leonard Cohen here? I would summarize it in the following fashion. Very active, very strong libido, serial seducer, but not offensive for the most part.

He might say the odd thing. There's some interesting little anecdotes that sort of suggest that sometimes he was very good at reading a room or reading the mood of a moment of a personality, but he occasionally missed. And so there's a couple anecdotes that speak to his missing. But by and large, we're not talking somebody who was a sexual predator here. We're not talking somebody who was a sexual predator here. We're not talking Harvey Weinstein. We're not talking Roman Polanski. This isn't anything remotely like that. He was a charming seducer. Somebody, I think, calls him a, what do they call him?

What's the phrase? A gentleman, but a kind of sleazy gentleman. I think that's the phrase she uses. Sleazy gentleman, but the emphasis she makes, insists on saying is on the gentleman. So, yeah, he had sex on his brain, and he was a very attractive guy. Women were throwing themselves at him at concerts and on the street and on Idra, everywhere he turned. He had women offering themselves to him, and he didn't resist. I need to say that there are some stories in the book, I'm sure you saw, where women felt badly treated by him at the end of the day. But overwhelmingly, that isn't the case.

Overwhelmingly, even when they wanted more of him and didn't get it and were frustrated, overwhelmingly, they speak well of him, that he was a very special guy. He gave them something that no other man previously and sometimes afterward ever gave them. And if I had to reduce it, I would say that that thing he gave them was attention. His complete, utter, completely focused on them attention. And that's a gift. That's a gift. In this light of, you know, Me Too, you mentioned a couple of names.

Another name, you know, would be be Bill Cosby, for example. The key here, and very important, we hammer this home, of course, is that as far as you know, the many, many lovers of Leonard Cohen are all consenting adults. And that's a key differentiator. There is some suggestion that what precipitated the final breakup of what amounted to his marriage, because they were never technically married, was a dalliance that he may have had with a 15-year-old girl. And there is testimony to that. It's not definitive.

It's not proof. Is that a nanny? Is that one of the nannies? That was one of the nannies, yeah, the 15-year-old nanny? Is that one of the nannies? That was one of the nannies, yeah, the 15-year-old nanny. So, I don't know, you know, definitively if it's true, but there are people in the book who say it is so, more than one. But in general, yes, consenting adults, absolutely. Now, Suzanne, mother to Leonard's children, Suzanne, at some point, you know, yeah, as you just kind of alluded to there, at some point, she finally has enough. I mean, I mean, I guess if you're, you know, you can call it a marriage or when you're with Leonard Cohen, I suppose you have a certain

tolerance for his behavior when, you know, you mentioned his libido. And I don't think he was particularly skilled at monogamy. And at some point, he had enough. She had enough. Well, I think that's absolutely true. And to be fair to Leonard, she was not so skilled at monogamy either. And if I believe the testimony of the people I interviewed, and I do, that she was complicit in sometimes arranging these trysts.

So that was a very messy and complicated relationship, and when she left in 78, she had probably left two or three times before that or made attempts at it and was always drawn back. But it was a complicated, tortuous relationship. And what can you tell us a bit, maybe a little bit? Again, people need to read this book. There's a lot of interesting content here. But the French photographer, Dominique, how do you say last name?

Iserman? Iserman. Iserman. Dominique Iserman, a very talented, brilliant French photographer, mostly works in black and white, maybe exclusively, met her on Idra in 1981, exclusively, met her on Idra in 1981, introduced by Louis Fury and Carol Lohr, a famous Quebec show business couple. And they begin a relationship in 1981 that lasts through the late 80s. There's a breakup, I think, in 87, which will be in the

next book. And then they resume for a while. But she remains a loyal, devoted, trusting friend of his till the end of his life. And even in the final weeks and months of his life, has come flying from Paris to LA to basically spend time with him and nurse him, in effect. to basically spend time with him and nurse him, in effect. A very strong woman, very disciplined woman, very talented, as I said. She's an important factor. Sadly, although I made repeated overtures, she declined my invitation to participate in the book.

So one day perhaps she'll write her own. She did mention that to me in an email, or her associate did, that she might do that. And I hope she does, because she would have a fascinating, provide a fascinating window on Leonard Cohen. How frustrating is that for you as the author of these three volumes, when you have a, what I would call like a key cog in the wheel, a key link. Well, I call the suicide hotline about once a week. Oh, no. This is a quick aside

and we're going to get right back to Leonard, of course. I almost called him Lenny there, but he would not be happy with that. I'm putting together, almost as important as Leonard Cohen, I'm putting together this, basically, it's all about Dave Hodge's pen flip. Do you remember when Dave Hodge flipped a pen on Hockey Night in Canada? This is the mid-80s.

Anyway. Yeah, vaguely. Yeah, so I'm talking to all the key people who were there, and I'm talking to Dave, and I've got all this stuff recorded, and there's a gentleman named John Shannon who was producing that telecast that night who I was so kind of my request. Like we can do it by zoom. We're just going to talk about this one subject,

whatever, whatever, uh, and declined the invitation to talk about. And anyway, I found it personally because it's like, there's this, I got it.

All the pieces are coming together and there's this key piece right here. And this guy, you know, he's able to do it. He's a, you know, we could do it by Zoom. He doesn't even have to leave his living room or whatever. And he's declined. And I found that very frustrating. So I can't imagine what it's like for you. And of course I lobby, I beg, I plead, I get down on my hands and knees and say, look, you know, I know that most of which, if not all of what you're going to say about Leonard is hugely positive. It only reflects him in a wonderful light. Wouldn't you want future readers and fans

and cultural historians to know these wonderful stories about his brilliance and generosity and good character? And sometimes that works and sometimes it doesn't. And I don't even know if I got that far with Dominique, but I certainly did with others. And, you know, sometimes they want to write their own memoirs, and that's perfectly understandable. Sometimes they just regard their Leonard Cohen connection, whatever the relationship was. Sometimes it's not a physical relationship. Sometimes it's just a friendship. There's a woman in Montreal who was a very close friend of him, Hazel Field, who was kind of his, almost a gatekeeper in Montreal. If you needed to see Leonard, you went through Hazel. She's a photographer as well, by the way, very talented as well.

And she turned me down. And for her, I think it's more like, these are my memories. I'm going to keep them. I'm not going to share them. Maybe I'll write about it. Maybe I won't, but I'm not giving them to you. That is me. So that, yes, absolutely, totally frustrating. And, you know, it just pushes you a little harder or pushed me a little harder to find other people. Not that they can be replaced because, frankly, or to find other people.

Not that they can be replaced, because frankly, they can't be replaced, but just to offer as much dimension and nuance to the story and the storyline as possible. Now, you mentioned, I think, 550-plus interviews you've done now for this series. But as you read the book, you'll read quotes from people you did not speak to. So, I mean, you'll say, oh, there's Janis Joplin. I don't think Michael, you know, was able to talk to Janis Joplin about this.

Well, we did a seance together. No, you're right. I did take from the public record here and there. Even Leonard Cohen's comments in the book are taken from the public record. Right, right. All right. Now, while Leonard's with Dominique Iserman, there's a simultaneously, you've just sort of uncovered this five-year relationship he had with a woman that previously was unidentified.

Yep. Her name is Gabriela Valenzuela. She was a Costa Rican. First, she was an actress. Then she became a journalist, a model, and a model and a fashion journalist. Very talented woman. And he meets her in Belgium in 1980. They don't actually which sort of appear to end up in lyrics of the song Hallelujah. I won't say more, but I encourage readers to look for that. She's a fascinating woman. She had been a student of Lorca, the Spanish poet, and she helps, apart from inspiring some of the lyrics of Hallelujah,

she helps him translate the Lorca poem that becomes the song Take This Waltz and spends many hours with him, not only that poem, but other poems that Leonard also translated and turned into either songs or poems. it also translated and turned into either songs or poems. So this goes on. It's not clandestine because he is seen occasionally with her in public and with friends, but it's more or less clandestine. And yet she was a very important part of his life, and certainly he was a very important part of her life,

for this whole period from 1982 to 1986 when she becomes pregnant by leonard by leonard and and um and and she's at that time 24 25 years old and unmarried and and feels that she must abort the child, and she does. But sadly, at that point, can't seem to find Leonard. He's in Europe or he's somewhere or in Montreal, but wherever he is, she cannot find him. And it's a very painful chapter in her life because she never actually knows definitively to this day whether Leonard was

aware of her pregnancy. And so she never really achieves emotional closure on the relationship as a result. She makes the decision alone. She has the abortion alone. And she really struggles with it to this day. And yet, as I said earlier, overwhelmingly, even despite that rather tragic denouement in the relationship, she regards him as just this very special human being that has made her life very special in its own right way. So off the top, Michael, I mentioned the alternative title could be Sex and Zen and Rock and Roll, and I'm going to switch up that order. So before I close the sex segment here, lots in the book.

It's wild. Again, it's quite titillating, if you will. But then you have, I'm going to do Zen last, and then we're going to get into the rock and roll here. But just to wrap up this sex, when you think back at Leonard Cohen and you read about these trysts and that story you just shared and everything,

it's clear that if he wasn't this dapper poet with this enigma, this, this, this legend, I feel like we would be referring to Leonard Cohen as like, I guess what would be the collegial term as a dog? Yeah, there's, there's definitely an element of that. Again, the sleazy gentleman element is, you know, it's a, it's an app, an app description. Yeah. He was very interested in women, although, as I think somebody says, there's an anecdote about, you know, it's not an anecdote so much.

It's an observation that a friend of his makes, a guy by the name of Brandon Iyer. Brandon Iyer. And he says, you know, if Leonard could have any woman in the room, he'd come to a party, all kinds of attractive women around, and he could pick, you know, whoever he wanted, and there would be no doubting his success. trying to pick up a woman, he would back away. He would never be competitive. He would never use his star power to interfere or impede your efforts. So, you know, he could be discreet.

But, yes, he was promiscuous. Somebody else, I think, describes him as promiscuous, and I think that's a fair description of him through this period. That's a fair description of him through this period. He leads a very active life, and sometimes that kind of active life leads to physical conditions that need to be treated with pharmaceutical enhancements, and he did on occasion. I can imagine. It's a numbers game at that point. I can imagine it's a numbers game at that point so we'll close with the great words of Omar Little from The Wire a man's gotta have a code

so it sounds like in that game Michael K. Williams yes Michael K. Williams that's correct may he rest in peace late great Michael K. Williams a man's gotta have a code alright now musically so fun fact Leonard Cohen is also a musician late great Michael K. Willing. A man's got to have a code. All right. Now, musically. So, fun fact, Leonard Cohen is also a musician. I don't want to bury that lead. So, you know,

we talked last time about the early years of Leonard Cohen and some of those hits like Bird on a Wire and So Long Mary Ann and, you know, Suzanne and these epic jams from the late 60s, I guess early 70s. But then I'm a younger guy, so I only know from the history books what was going down in the 70s really. But it seems like there's this musically in terms of at least sales and chart success of any type, there's a drought, like a pretty good drought.

And what's interesting is learning about the album, Various Positions, which is this 1984 album, and has some songs on there, including Hallelujah and Dance Me to the End of Love, which we'll talk about. But this album was rejected by Columbia Records? It was rejected for distribution in the United States by Columbia. They did distribute it in Canada, and they did distribute it in Europe, where Leonard's base audience was at the beginning and maybe forever.

So it did get distribution, and it was distributed in the States by a small, I think called Passport Records, maybe that's the title. They did pick it up for distribution in the States, but not by Columbia. So therefore, no major promotion by Columbia in the United States. You know, clearly, there's the very famous anecdote, you know, it's told in virtually every Leonard Cohen story, where he takes the record to Walter Yetnikoff, then the president of Columbia,

and plays it for him. And Walter says, Leonard, we know you're great. We just don't know if you're any good. And by good, he means, you know, can we sell the damn thing? You know, are you commercial? And the answer is, in Yetnikoff's eyes, no. You know, he's interested in selling what he calls tonnage, records, records, records. And Leonard is not there. And interestingly enough, as a friend of Leonard's later remarks, he actually agrees with Yetnikov. I mean, he's disappointed, of course, and very angry about it. But he actually agrees. He recognizes that he's not commercial enough, and it kind of inspires him to go back to the drawing board and create the albums that became I'm Your Man and The Future, which were probably his two most successful commercial albums in the subsequent, I guess, decade. But that's the story of various positions. It has these great songs on it. And he was vindicated,

but it took John Cale and Buckley and others to vindicate, and Shrek to vindicate. That's right. Was it Rufus Wainwright? No, it's Cale. Cale's on the Shrek soundtrack, if I remember. I think it's Cale. I, it's Kale. Kale's on the Shrek soundtrack, if I remember. I think it's Kale. I think it's Kale.

Right. And, well, okay, so I do want to dive deeper into Hallelujah because it's such an iconic song at this point. But Dance Me to the End of Love is another song in various positions that's just gorgeous. What can you share with us about Dance Me to the End of Love? La la, la la la la la la La la la la la la la

La la la La la La la la la la la la la la Dance me to your beauty with a burning violin Dance me through the planning till I'm gathered safely lift me like

an olive branch and be my homeward dove and dance me to the end of love yeah dance me to the end of love Yeah, dance me To the end of love Let me see your beauty when the witnesses are gone

Let me feel your movin moving like they do in Babylon Show me slowly what I only know the limits of And dance me to the end of love Yeah, dance me to the end of love Dance me to the wedding now Dance me on and on Dance me very tenderly And dance me very long We're both of us beneath our love

We're both of us above And dancing to the end of love Yeah, dancing To the end of love Dancing to the children Who are asking to be born Dance me through the curtains That our kisses have outworn

Raise a tent of shelter now Though ever a threat is torn And dance me to the end of love. La la, la la la la La la, la la la la La la la la la la La la la La la, la la la la la La la la la la la

La, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, I'm gathered safely in Touch me with your naked hand Touch me with your glove Dance me to the end of love Yeah, dance me to the end of love Dance me to the end of love The dance To the end of love Well, as much as I know about it, I don't deal a lot with it.

The famous story is that he was inspired to write it by seeing a black and white photograph of, I guess, Jewish prisoners being marched to the incinerators, not to the incinerators, to the gas chambers. While at Auschwitz, a Jewish orchestra essentially serenaded them to their death. And that image, that haunting image, deeply affected Leonard, and it kind of was the original inspiration for the song. Now, it obviously transitioned and morphed into a more complicated thing lyrically, but that's the beginning of it, Dance Me to the End of Love. But as with many Leonard Cohen songs, I think the lyrics can be read or interpreted on many levels,

and so it isn't only about that. I think in some respects it might be the perfect wedding song. You really feel it's a wedding song, and it probably is played at multiple weddings. It's a beautiful haunting melody, beautiful Jewish minor key melody, and it's definitely one of his classics melodies, a brilliant song. Absolutely. Now, let's dive a little deeper into Hallelujah here. So, you mentioned, sorry, what's the Costa Rican lover's name again?

Gabriela Valenzuela. One interesting little tidbit is that she auditioned to be an MTV VJ, if i've got my yeah that's right good you've got a good memory yeah she does and and it's while she's doing that that she encounters these the the first early incarnations of the cassio um music boxes and and um and i don't know i mean maybe there were other people involved in this as well but but she claims that she introduced Leonard to these and it becomes the inspiration for, and really it gives him a whole new line of pursuit in terms of his composition skills because he's able to, you know, program different sounds

and experiment with different sounds and riffs on the machine that he couldn't do by himself on the guitar. And it's, you know, it, it, it amazes and surprises and flummoxes the musicians that he's worked working with because they see this as kind of a toy and a rinky dink little sound machine that, that doesn't really have any respectability in the music business, at least certainly in the early mid eighties. And, and yet he's totally dedicated to it,

and it finds its way into some of those albums in the 80s. Absolutely. Now, what can you share with us? Obviously, the deep dive is in the book again, I guess I've said that. But just a few of the highlights along the way of the song Hallelujah and how it comes together, and even the whole, like how it, the way we hear it, like if you listen to Jeff Buckley's Hallelujah, it sounds quite different from the Leonard Cohen original

that you'll hear on various positions. Like John Cale, I know you mentioned his name already, but my mind, I'm going to tell you what I remember here and then you'll correct it all here. I'll pass the mic as the Beastie Boys would say. But what, John Cale is in a club in New York or something and is singing this, and somebody hears it, and Jeff Buckley, is Jeff Buckley at this club? Please, bail me out here. Give us some this hallelujah legend yeah I think I think that's right Kale hears it at a club I don't know if it's Buckley performing it but Dylan actually

performs it in 1984 in Paris and Leonard goes to that concert and then sees him the next day and applauds, you know, commends him on the song. This is the famous anecdote. I'm just going to digress from here. Commends him on that song and says, you know, that was an amazing song. How long did it take you to write it? And Leonard lies and says a couple of years, because it was really like four or five years. And then Leonard says, you know, how long did it take you to write?

I don't know, one of the Dillon's hits. And when Dillon says, I don't know, 20 minutes. That's a famous story as well. So, yeah, so Cale hears it and loves it. And there's a new documentary out that probably gives you chapter and verse on the exact historical lineage of the development of this, of the, of hallelujah.

It's, it's just out. And it's got a lot of people, interesting people in it, including those guys. So, so they, that's going to be far more authoritative than my,

my recreated version. But I think you've got it basically right. Yeah. Somehow somebody is at the club in New York when Cale is performing his rearranged version, which is basically the template that Buckley uses for his version, which becomes what that becomes. But I feel like somebody's in the crowd watching Kale, and if it's not Buckley, it's somebody who somehow is tied to Buckley.

Yeah, it's not Buckley, it's Kale. But Kale's performing in the club, this version. I think it's Larry Sloman, Larry Ratso Sloman, who's a New York journalist who was a friend of Kael's. But this comes later because in the early 90s, this French rock and roll magazine decides to, I think, put out covers of Leonard. That's it. There's a cover album. Yes.

of Leonard. There's a cover album. And the Kale, there's a song called Queen Victoria that I think appeared as a bonus track on his 1972 London Live album. And that's the one that Kale actually wants to do. And then he remembers that he'd seen Hallelujah performed, and he decides to do that. And they email Leonard, and they say, can you send us the lyrics? And suddenly, the fax machine in Cale's apartment starts churning out verse after verse, you know, 50 verses of Hallelujah that Cohen actually wrote. There's probably more, actually, although they only ever used six or seven, I think. Baby, I've been here before I know this room I walk this floor

I used to live alone Before I knew you Before I knew you Yeah, and I've seen your flag on the marble arch But listen, love, love is not some kind of victory march No, it's a cold and it's ever broken Hallelujah And it's ever unbroken Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah

Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah, Hallelujah, Hallelujah There was a time you let me know What's really going on below Ah, but now You never show it to me Do you? Ah, but I remember

Yeah, when I moved in you And the whole land, she was moving too Yes, and every single breath that went through Was hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah, hallelujah, hallelujah, hallelujah. Maybe there's a god above As for me all I ever seem To learn from love

Is how To shoot at someone who outdrew you yeah but it's not a complaint that you hear tonight it's not the laughter of someone who claims

to have seen the lightning no it's a cold and it's ever and only hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah Aleluia, aleluia, aleluiaZither Harp I am a man of the earth, I am a man of the earth, I am a man of the earth, I am a man of the earth. Aleluia Aleluia Aleluia

Aleluia Hallelujah Hallelujah I did my best, it wasn't much I couldn't feel, So I learned to touch I've told the truth I didn't come all this way to fool you And even though it all went wrong I'll stand right here before the Lord of song With nothing on my tongue but Hallelujah Hallelujah

Hallelujah Hallelujah, Hallelujah, Hallelujah Hallelujah, Hallelujah, Hallelujah Aleluia, aleluia Aleluia, aleluia Aleluia Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah

Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah

Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah

Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah

Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah

Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah

Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah

Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah See, that's a volume three story. That's a volume three story, yeah. So we're going to put a pin in that, as they say, in boardrooms across this fine country. And we're going to revisit that in 12 months when we chat again here.

There's no volume four, right? I feel like we're going to need an excuse to do this in a couple of years. I'm into the rhythm now. Interestingly enough, when volume one came out and I knew what i had ahead of me and i had so much material and i knew that the you know and so in word count i was way beyond what any what any rational commercial book publisher could contemplate um i said to them you know maybe we should think about four. And I got a pretty firm no. All the great things are truly, oh, I say that now and I regret saying it because I did not care for Godfather 3. I just want to put that on the record. I saw exactly one time and never felt an

urge ever in my life to revisit. But I probably have uh part one and two uh each uh i'd say we're in the triple digits easily uh at this point so there you go so well hopefully you won't say the same about going through the buttered cone hopefully it's a different story with with your series here uh now of course we mentioned mid to late 80s is when uh this volume two two covers up to and uh one of the songs i think is at the end of your volume two here. I'm going to read the title again, Untold Stories from This Broken Hill. I think we cover closing time, right? I did read about that at the end of the book, right?

Closing time? I don't think so. Are you in lieu to it maybe? Okay. Closing time is from the future, which is 92. Okay. Maybe there was some T's in there okay so i can say maybe i use the words in some fashion but i but yeah the song itself is not really dope okay because there's a few stories just about uh closing time

when i thought okay maybe maybe i'm misremembering maybe that is a mid but you're telling me that's volume three so i'll hold on to my closing time because as a fervent viewer of much music in this era i can say it was uh sort of like neil young and harvest moon it was like these these legacy acts with their current video hits and speaking to you in 2021 as i have a couple of teenagers now it sounds crazy to me now that like leonard cohen and neil young in the late 80s had these big in early 90s uh had these big video hits and the top 40 hits like yeah and for leonard cohen that was that was extraordinary because he was not a top 40 guy that was part of his problem was that he wasn't getting a lot of radio airplay for his songs. You know, there was a cult audience for Leonard

for, certainly in North America, and even to some extent in Canada. So he struggled. In Europe he was God, you know, he was a demigod in Europe. You know, he couldn't, he would be recognized everywhere on the street and fawned over etc etc but yes so closing time was it was a was a big hit and democracy is a was a big hit he had you know it was that put him in new territory but interestingly enough i mean as i don't want to get ahead of the game here too far but but um he tours that album uh the the future album in 1993 and he's you know

he's coming up on 60 years old um and notwithstanding the success it had and the sales it had um he's he's reaching a crisis point in his life so i'm going to give you that's a little teaser for book three because it it precipitates uh part of the discussion that we're about to have about Zen, because he goes into the monastery to become, literally to be ordained as a Buddhist monk. Yeah, the Zen segment is imminent here. another jam that will be in our conversation next year that i still love because of how effectively it was used in a movie i quite liked but everybody knows uh i everybody knows by leonard cohen and that's going to be a volume three jam as well i suppose if i do the math on that but everybody knows that the dice are loaded everybody rolls with their fingers crossed Everybody knows the war is over Everybody knows the good guy's lost Everybody knows the fight was fixed

The poor stay poor, the rich get rich that's how it goes. Everybody knows. Everybody knows that the boat is leaking. Everybody knows the captain lied. Everybody got this broken feeling. Like their father or their dog just died Everybody talking to their pockets Everybody wants a box of chocolates And a long stem rose

Everybody knows You know, whether you're a fan of Leonard Cohen or not, I think this is a compelling story. He's quite the figure in Canadian music history. And I'm glad that we finally got to Volume 2. Volume 3 with Michael Posner will be about, I don't know, 12 months from now. So listen for that in November 2022. I want to thank the partners that made this conversation possible.

Much love to Palma Pasta. Again, go to palmapasta.com. I think Damien Cox visited yesterday just for the lasagna. His wife says it's the best lasagna they've ever had. So support Palma Pasta. And if you're looking for fresh craft beer that's absolutely delicious, support Great Lakes

Brewery. Free delivery in the GTA. You don't have to go to the retail store in Southern Etobicoke, although that's pretty damn awesome. But support Great Lakes. StickerU.com that's where you go if you need stickers and decals and such. And another wonderful Toronto-based company that has stepped up to fuel the real talk. Michael Majewski is doing something pretty damn cool.

And I'm going to be talking about it for the rest of the month here. Mike Majewski has purchased 200 beautiful full-size Christmas trees. And you can have one in exchange for a donation to the Daily Bread Food Bank. You can just register right now, reach out to Mike Majeski and say you want one of those beautiful Christmas trees that he's purchased. Mike at realestatelove.ca. Just put Christmas tree in the subject line so he doesn't miss it. And then let him know what day do you want to pick up your tree. You can do it November 27 and 28 from 9 to 1 p.m. Or you could do it December 4th and 5th from 9 o'clock to 1 p.m.

So let him know you want a tree. You'll make a donation to the Daily Bread Food Bank and send them an email now, mikeatrealestatelove.ca. As you know, Toronto Mic'd is brought to you by the Yes We Are Open podcast. That's a Moneris podcast production where Al Grego, a great FOTM himself, who joins me here tomorrow, he tells the stories of Canadian small businesses and their perseverance in the face of overwhelming adversity. Go to yesweareopenpodcast.com right now to subscribe to this fantastic podcast.

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of this program for a couple of years now and they're truly pillars of this community you can learn more about ridley funeral home and the good people there at ridleyfuneralhome.com now let's return to my conversation with michael posner about the late great leonard cohen yeah that's that's that's there i mean you know that song is you know his brilliance as a lyricist is so evident i mean it's evident everywhere but but that is that is such a brilliantly structured song i mean the guy the guy was just gifted and and and you know i keep saying in these kind of interviews that he was a cut above. He was writing on a different level. Like I just, who touches him, you know?

And really there are, I can't really think of anybody. I know Dylan wins the Nobel Prize for Literature in 2016 for his body of work. And there are people who to this day would say, you know, Dylan is the better songwriter but that's an argument that's a debate and I'm not sure I would agree So to

conclude, no don't apologize to conclude the music part though when you look at it again all my music listening happens and kind of starts in the mid to late 80s and, you know, all throughout the 90s, et cetera. But Leonard Cohen, those early hits,

I felt they were all around. I knew them like Suzanne, So Long Marianne, Bird on a Wire, songs like that. And then I don't hear anything in the zeitgeist of Leonard Cohen until various positions. Like that is, if I do the math on that, that's like a 13-year core gap. And you mentioned, you know,

he was not commercially successful on this continent. But in that period, I can't think of a, like, oh, there's a Leonard Cohen hit in those 13 years. Yeah, it's true. I mean, part of it is Leonard himself in a way because he was very reluctant to repeat himself so he didn't want to keep writing songs like you know uh so long marianne and suzanne he was always trying to find new ways to to do things and say things and and so and sometimes you know he would do it.

He would find new ways, but they just weren't as popular. So if you look at, you know, see his albums from the 70s, including recent songs in 1979, there are some beautiful tracks on there, but they are not, you know, this is a period where he's deeply into Zen, frankly, and a lot of these tunes are actually influenced by Zen, and they're a little more esoteric. You know, if you think of the Ballad of the Ancient Mayor, which is this long ballad based on an old, actually ancient woodcut, Japanese woodcut, I think, that he turns into a parable. And, you know, it's working on multiple literary levels, interpretive levels.

And he adds, I think, a mariachi band to part of the score, the instrumentation. And these are just, you know know they're interesting songs they're literary songs but they are not commercially songs you're going to be humming in the shower frankly well now that you brought up Zen here this is a good opportunity to segue to the

I suppose it's like the last four decades of his life really where he immerses himself in Zen Buddhism. Yeah, you need to add parenthetically, but remains a Jew, because he never actually relinquishes that identity or even that pursuit, you know, that he's on the side, even while he's wearing his robes. the side, even while he's wearing his robes, you know, he'd have a Friday night traditional Jewish Sabbath dinner in a Korean restaurant in LA, and he'd bring the candles to light for the Sabbath, and he'd bring the challah to cut and say the prayers, but he's in his Japanese robes, you know. challah to cut and say the prayers, but he's in his Japanese robes, you know. So he was able to do both. But yes, there is a 40-year pursuit to which he is completely devoted, but the center

of the devotion is the head of the Rinzai-ji Zen Center in Los Angeles, a guy by the name of Joshu Sasaki Roshi, who's a, maybe he's five foot on a good day when the wind is blowing properly, and obese, and also something, it turns out, of a sexually promiscuous guy, if not actually a bit of a predator, but that comes later. if not actually a bit of a predator, but that comes later. And he's a brilliant, brilliant guy. He has 12 words of English, but he's as a translator and he is able to sit down in front of you and in 10 minutes diagnose whatever it is that is troubling you and to give you some guidance to help you. And Leonard said many, many times, if Sasaki Roshi had been a barber in Seville or a physicist in Heidelberg, then I would have gone to Seville or to Heidelberg. It was Sasaki Roshi that kept him there. And he attributes, he said on more than one occasion, somebody said,

said on more than one occasion, you know, he, somebody said, what, what, what would you be if you hadn't met Sasaki Roshi? And he said, I wouldn't be if I hadn't met Sasaki Roshi. He literally saved my life. So that speaks to the, to the depths of the depression that Leonard Cohen was capable of plunging into and did plunge into and to that very strong relationship. So yeah, that's an interesting 40-year journey. And even after this, again, is a foreshadowing of what comes in book three, but in the late 1990s, he becomes in what is known in Zen as his Inji, that is his assistant. So he books his travel and he irons his robes and he cooks his meals and he washes his dishes. He's there for, he's living on Mount Baldy, an hour east of Los Angeles, and he is serving as Roshi's Inji, and it's very rigorous and very demanding.

And he eventually realizes, if I'm not a prisoner, I'm a slave, and I got to get out of here. And he goes to India and starts studying Advaita Hinduism with a guy named Ramesh Balsakar, reads his books, and he goes to India, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, He goes five or six times every year for weeks on end, and he's equally serious about the pursuit of that. So I think that too tells you just what a quest, what a spiritual seeker Leonard Cohen was. Without a doubt, and pardon my ignorance here, but you would think that Judaism would be sufficient to satisfy his, you know, spiritual...

It was intellectually, and he delved into the spiritual aspects of some of the more mystical aspects of Judaism, Kabbalah, Zohar, and these other exotic mystic books. And he studied with rabbis beginning in 2000. He studied with rabbis periodically, but he becomes quite serious about it after about 205. And it isn't sufficient, frankly. He's really interested in the intellectual aspects of it and the spiritual aspects of it. aspects of it and the spiritual aspects of it. But he never, even though he goes to India and, you know, takes that up, he remains very close to Sasaki Roshi.

And when he comes back, he's still, excuse me, still part of the movement, still attends what they call sashins, these meditation sessions. And, in fact, nurses Sasaki Roshi, who lives to 107, nurses him through his final years, literally nurses him through his final years and pays for much of his medical attention. So Leonard Cohen was a very serious guy about all of this stuff and so he you know he can go back to the 60s when in the first book where he's exploring suf sufism and and uh and

and other exotic um you know prep methodologies spiritual methodologies so he's it that's a lifelong quest so wait How did he connect? Was it an interest in Zen Buddhism that connected him to this legendary Zen master in the first place? He meets a guy on Idra in 1961 named Steve Sanfield, another Jewish boy from the east coast of the United States. And Sanfield, at that time in 61, they're just, they're just, you know, guys on a spiritual quest. They don't even know about Sasaki Roshi.

Sanfield comes back to the States in the 60s and winds up, wants to be a Hollywood screenwriter, but somehow ends up meeting Sasaki Roshi in a suburb of L.A. in the mid-1960s, and becomes completely besotted with him and his intelligence and insights. And then, when Sandfield marries in 1969, I think, Cohen comes to the wedding at the Zen Center in L.A. and is introduced to Sasaki Roshi. And about a year after that, drives from Toronto, flies to Winnipeg, picks up a car, and drives to California and does, I think, his first sashin. And that is the beginning of his relationship with Sasaki Roshi.

Now, this 40- year immersion in Zen Buddhism does inspire some rather profound and endearing art. I always think, because I think, I feel I'm a busy guy when I look at my home. I'm a busy guy. Between his spirituality and his

lovers, his art, Leonard was prolific. He was very, very prolific, yeah. And Leonard was prolific. He was very, very prolific. Yeah. And he drew every day, you know, he did them as sort of doodles or sketches and he commercialized them later. Again, many years later, not long after he discovered that he had been, that he had lost his money, that his former business manager was accused of taking and spending his money.

Partly as a search for income, he gets involved in commercializing his art. And there's an art dealer in Manchester, England, who organizes the first of many exhibits of Leonard's caricatures and self-portraits, and they sell quite well. He makes quite a lot of money on it. Well, Michael, more to come in volume three here, but fascinating, fascinating discussion. And the book, again, is it's volume two, Leonard Cohen, Untold Stories from This Broken Hill. Can't wait for volume three. I'm just going to share a quick anecdote because throughout this pandemic, I recorded what we called Pandemic Friday episodes

of Toronto Mic'd. And I did these with a gentleman named Cam Gordon and a gentleman named Stu Stone. And there was a great moment when Stu thought, and I think you might find this amusing, but the theme song to The Sopranos, he woke up this morning, I think the band is called A3. Stu thought that was Leonard Cohen singing the theme song to The Sopranos,

and we all just kind of shook our heads and laughed at that untruth. Yeah, I don't think it's true. If it is true, it has not been widely reported. Let me put it that way. So I dedicate this episode to Stu Stone, who's in Winnipeg right now, directing a movie with

Jan Arden and some other interesting people. So shout out to Stu Stone. And that was a great error in his judgment. But this book, fantastic. Michael, thanks again for another interesting discussion about Leonard. Thank you so much for having me on. It was really, really generous of you. And I'm very, very grateful.

So you'll come back again next year to do it again? You can bank on it. And that brings us to the end of our 946th show. You can follow me on Twitter. I'm at Toronto Mike. Michael Posner has too much good sense to be on Twitter. Our friends at Great Lakes Brewery,

they're at Great Lakes Beer. Chef Drop is at GetChefDrop. Manaris is at Manaris. McKay CEO Forums are at McKay CEO Forums. Palma Pasta is at McKay CEO forums. Palma pasta is at Palma pasta. Sticker you is that sticker you Ridley funeral home.

They're at Ridley FH and Mike Majeski of Remax specialists. Majeski group. They're on Instagram as at Majeski group homes. See you all next week. It's cold, but the smell of snow warms me today. And your smile is fine, and it's just like mine, and it won't go away. Because everything is rosy and green. Well, you've been under my skin for more than eight years. It's been eight years of laughter and eight years of tears And I don't know what the future can hold or do for me and you But I'm a much better man for having known you

Oh, you know that's true because Everything is coming up rosy and gray. Yeah, the wind is cold, but the smell of snow won't stay today. And your smile is fine, and it's just like mine, and it won't go away. Because everything is rosy and gray. Everything is rosy and green Well, I've been told that there's a sucker born every day But I wonder who Yeah, I wonder who

Maybe the one who doesn't realize There's a thousand shades of green Cause I know that's true, yes I do I know it's true, yeah I know it's true How about you? I'm picking up trash and then putting down ropes And then brokering stocks, the class struggle explodes

And I'll play this guitar just the best that I can Maybe I'm not and maybe I am But who gives a damn? Because everything is coming up rosy and gray Yeah, the wind is cold but the smell of snow warms me today and your smile is fine and it's just like mine and it won't go away cause everything is rosy and gray well i've kissed you in france and i've kissed you in France and I've kissed you in Spain

And I've kissed you in places I better not name And I've seen the sun go down on Sacré-Cœur But I like it much better going down on you Yeah, you know that's true. Because everything is coming up rosy and green. Yeah, the wind is cold, but the smell of snow warms us today. And your smile is fine, and it's just like mine. And it won't go away.

Because everything is rosy now Everything is rosy, yeah Everything is rosy and gray, yeah Thank you.