Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Linden MacIntyre: Toronto Mike'd Podcast Episode 1752

Episode Date: August 27, 2025

In this 1752nd episode of Toronto Mike'd, Mike chats with Linden MacIntyre about his career in journalism, why he left CBC and the fifth estate, his pivot into becoming an award-winning novelist and his latest book, An Accidental Villain: A Soldier’s Tale of War, Deceit, and Exile. Toronto Mike'd is proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, Ridley Funeral Home, Toronto Maple Leafs Baseball, the Waterfront BIA, Blue Sky Agency and RecycleMyElectronics.ca. If you would like to support the show, we do have partner opportunities available. Please email Toronto Mike at [e-mail].

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comitting to our planet's future means properly recycling our electronics of the past. and Ridley Funeral Home, pillars of the community since 1921. Today, making his Toronto Mike debut is Giller Prize winner, Lyndon McIntyre. Hello, Lyndon. Hello, Mike.

What a pleasure it is to meet you. You've been on my television screen for decades, and here you are in the wonderful TMDS basement. It's a dream come true. I'm sure it's a dream for you as well. It is, indeed. It is indeed, because I've heard all about Mike from my wife, actually, who was here a year,

or so ago, Carol Off, and she raves about Mike and pizza and beer and God knows what she's not telling me. So, so many places I want to go there, but one is congratulations on being married to Carol Off. Yeah, well, that's my pleasure. That's a legend. And she's an FOTM. So, okay, where do I go next?

Mike, I'm no Lyndon McIntyre, okay? But I do, I did take some time because I was thinking to myself, when you make your Toronto Mike debut, which is happening right now, you are now. an FOTM, a friend of Toronto, Mike. I am, yes. You know, I don't, you have not, by the way, you have not yet received the order of Canada, have you? No.

You should, right? No. You don't think so. I don't think so. I think you and Carol should each get one. I won't speak for her, but I won't get into my opinions, but no, I've never felt left out and I've never felt like I wanted to get in. I have full respect for people who have it,

but I don't consider myself to be deficient in any. any way for not having it. But lesser thans do have it. This is my opinion. I speak for myself here. And I don't know how important it is to have it, but I was surprised to find out you did not yet have this honor bestowed upon you. I'm...

You're content. I'm surprised that you're surprised. And Carol, too. But, okay, so when I found out that you were dropping by, and I know Carol off is a great FOTM, I'm going to ask you in a minute if she disclosed to you where that lovely lasagna came from or if she acted like she made it. We'll find out in a minute.

But I did quickly go through the list of married FOTM. So people who have been on the show but are married to other people who have been on the show. And I won't read the full list. There's a lengthy list here. But can I just bang off some big couples that have been on the show that you and Carol are joining? And then you can chime in if you know these people personally. This will be a quick little thing. Cynthia Dale and Peter Mann's Bridge.

Know them. I know Peter and I'm acquainted with Cynthia. Okay, of course. You and Peter had the same employer for many years. Yes. Murray McLaughlin and Denise Donlan. No, I'm both. I love on both.

Sweethearts, both of them. Okay. Mary Ormsby and Paul Hunter. Don't know them. Oh, Paul Hunter. Toronto Star Journalists. Yes, I know Paul Hunter. Okay.

Let me just quickly hear. Okay. Hal Johnson and Joanne McLeod. No. These are the participaction duo. Remember on TV telling you to get out and move your butt in all these. things. Colin mockery and Deborah McGrath. I know

off them. I don't know them personally. Okay. Stephanie Smyth and Paul Cook. Don't know them personally. So Smyth is now a MP. Is she an MP or an MPP? I think she's now an MP. And, or there could be an MPP.

Please don't fact check me on this, CBC. But Paul Cook is the longtime morning anchor at 680 News. So if you've ever tuned in to find out what kind of traffic awaits you, you probably heard Paul Cook's voice. I'll do one more. It's a long list. Amy Sky and Mark Jordan.

Don't know them. Okay, talented musicians. Congratulations. I mentioned congratulations for being married to Carol off, but I do want to also say congratulations on the publication of an accidental villain, a soldier's tale of war, deceit, and exile. How does it feel like, do you feel like you just gave birth?

Like, this is... Well, this is the 10th book. So I don't want to feel like... I just gave birth to, I'll be sore all over. But it's always a great relief to hand out this book that cannot be messed with or edited any further. It's done. Once it's printed in the hardcover, I see the copy right there.

No more edits, right? Right. Okay. So we're going to dive into that. But because this is Toronto, Mike, we're going to get to know you a little better. And I have some questions about, you've so many facets to your career. I've got some questions about the broadcasting part of your career,

but I have a question about your name off the top. So I know Trevor Lyndon, he was a great Vancouver Canuck, and I know Colin Lyndon, a fantastic musician. But I don't know Lyndon as a first name. Like, where does the name Lyndon as a first name come from? That's a very good question, and I've asked my mother a number of times where she found it and she pretended she didn't know.

I come from a culture in which you're always named after your father, or your grandfather or both. For example, if your father's name is John and your grandfather's name is also John, you'll be named after your great-grandfather tacked on it. It's the very Russian, I'm not a Russian, but in the Celtic world you have the patronymic. So all my cousins and people I know

they're named after their dads, their names are like John Angus. I have a friend, I went to school with a guy named John Angus, John Archie, Jim Sandy. because he had to go back about three generations to be identified as him. Unique.

So, I mean, my mother decided she was going to not leave me vulnerable to that kind of. My father's name was Dan Rory, among many Danes, and his father's name was Dougled. So he would be known as Dan Rory Dougled. And she didn't want me to be,

if she named me John or Dan, I'd be Dan Rory Dougled. So she was going to avoid all that. And so she named me Lyndon and she wouldn't tell me why. Was this a boyfriend? Somebody told me that there was a radio mystery program

back in the 40s that she might have snitched the name from, but I don't know. But it was probably a surname. Yes, and it isn't not an uncommon surname in Cape Breton because it's from somewhere in the British area as a surname.

And I've known people with that as a surname. And I've I now know some younger people who have the name, and it's also spelled as my name is spelled, L-I-N-D-E-N. Okay, you're a trendsetter. They're probably named after Lyndon McIntyre. Well, they could be, excuse me, because they're from the area that saw me on television.

Right, well, so I'm wearing a shirt for one of my favorite bands, Sloan, and I award for you, Lyndon, because Sloan is a Halifax band. Yes. So maybe, if you don't mind, can we go back maybe and just talk a little bit about your Nova Scotia roots? Because you're in Nova Scotia. You're a Maritimer. I am.

Actually, we kind of identified Cape Bretner's. I've been there, by the way, because in Inganish, that's where I was, when the final tragically hip concert aired on August 20th, 2016. Where were you when? Right, right. And I was there streaming it live, and I'll never forget that moment. But, yeah, please, so you're from Cape Breton. Yes, and my mother's people are from down near Ingan.

North what they call North of Smokey. So that's where her people come from. And they are of Irish extraction. My father's people are from the other end of Cape Breton. They're from Inverness County and Gaelic speaking people who spoke it right up until my generation and come from the Hebrides. So, yeah, I know Inganish.

I know Cape Breton quite well. I spent two months there just now. And so... Amazing. Great music coming out of Cape Bretton. Yeah, indeed. Okay. You're born and raised in Cape Breton, in Nova Scotia?

I was born in Newfoundland, actually, Mike. Okay. My father was an itinerant Hard Rock Minor who got around all over the place, and he just happened to have been in Newfoundland when he decided to get married and start a family. So I was born there on the south coast of Newfoundland. I actually wrote a book about that place. Anyway, that's a digression.

Well, shut out the name of the book. The name of the book is called The Wake. And it's about a tsunami. that was followed by a very tragic period of industrial development. I'll put it like that. In that tragic period of industrial development, my father went to work down there as a hard rock miner, very early in his life.

There was a community there, and he thought he was accustomed to wilderness places where the mines were in northern Quebec and Ontario and Manitoba. Here he has a community with a church and a school and friendly people, and he said, well, this is a good place to get married. Unfortunately, it was in the middle of the first second world, war. And so the demand for the mineral that they were mining dried up by 1945-46. So he moved me, my sister, and my mother to close to where he grew up in Cape Breton. Now, I know at some

point you work with the Halifax Herald, but prior to that, like when did you realize I, Lyndon McIntyre, wanted to be a journalist? Like, when did this occur? I Lyndon McIntyre wanted to be a writer. A writer. I wanted to be a storyteller. And I also wanted to earn a a living. So the best way you could put all those things together, I thought, was to get a job on a newspaper, which I did. I could have gone into broadcasting, and this might interest you, Mike. I actually took a broadcasting course when I was quite young. And one of the instructors was a CBC television producer. And we were doing one of these sort of live instruction things where you go into a booth and you read a bit of a newscast and you come out and they evaluate you for your

delivery. I came out after my reading and this prescient CBC producer says, little advice for you. You might be a great journalist, but don't go near a microphone. I said, what's why? Well, I sure, I accept that, but why? And he says, well, you have a regional accent. You do. Do I hear it? Still after like. I still hear it. I hear it. Do you hear it, Scott? A little bit. I hear it. Well, he said, he started into, and of course, the CBC accents in those days were We're mid-Atlantic, right? And the closer you got to the United Kingdom with your accent, the more famous you got.

Right. Here I was with an accent from Inverness County. If you think you can hear it now, you should have heard it then. And he said, don't go near a microphone, whatever you do. Well, you didn't follow that advice. I did not. Maybe for a short period of time, because you do, this is when you leave Nova Scotia for the first time, right?

You moved to Ottawa for the Halifax Herald. It was a very lucky. I was only, like, I hadn't yet voted. and they asked if I would do what we now call an internship in Parliament Hill and the press gallery and I said why not? So I went up there

and they were leaving they put me there for six months and then they left me there for two years and by the end of the two years I was getting like my hair was starting to smolder because I didn't I hated covering federal politics in that kind of an environment

where you're stuck in the press gallery and you're just cranking out basically transcripts of transcripts. And so I asked to be moved back to Halifax. And so because maybe in the interim there, did you also work for financial time? Yes. See, I moved back to Halifax. You know, I was early 20s, and I got bored soon after that. And somebody that I had met in Ottawa worked for the Financial Times of Canada, which was a Sotham's paper. And they came and they said, why didn't you come work for us in Ottawa.

And I said, I just left Ottawa for personal reasons. But anyway, yeah, but, and I don't particularly know anything about finance and I'm not particularly interested in business reporting. No, no, no, no. We just want you to go there and you can become a reporter of policy and whatever and we'll help you alone. So I went up there for a couple of years. And then you came home.

Then my father, who had been a minor for many years, he got sick and he died suddenly at the age of 50. Am I, so things are a bit of a bit of uproar in Cape Breton. That sounds awfully young to me. Like, I feel like when I was maybe a younger man, 50 felt like, okay, I get it. But now from where I sit, that sounds awfully young. It was awfully young. And the circumstances were very sort of upsetting to me because my father, not to get too

far down into the weeds here. I like the weeds. Oh, okay. My father grew up in such a primitive environment that he didn't learn to speak English until he was about eight or not. years old, and he never went to school at all. So he and his parents and everybody, all they ever spoke together was

Scottish Gaelic. And so he never got to school. He picked up English. He picked up how to read and write from his father, who had actually got off the mountain for a little while. But when he got out into the world to look for work, they said what grade do you have?

And he had no grade. So he went to work at the lowest possible level you could possibly be, which is underground, pick and shovel. And he worked his way. up and he became very good at it and and but it killed him at the end of the day it just did all the accumulated ailments in the diseases that he picked up working in that environment brought him down at the age of 50 whenever I hear somebody complaining I don't know like uh they kept me late oh they had a Friday afternoon meeting can you believe it a Friday

afternoon meeting we should think about people like your dad like who are where they were working for a living I went I went underground myself when I was in university I needed the money for, you know, so it's summer work. I would, and one summer, in the northeast coast of Newfoundland, I was working underground. I had my 19th birthday underground. It was an overnight shift. And I

remember the next morning, my father came into the room, he was living in a different part of the camp. He came into the room, and I was still in bed because it was overnight, and the door opens, and this guy clumped into the room, and he says, here's your happy birthday, and he threw my birthday present on the bed. And the birthday present was two

packages of exporting. So anyway, I got up and I opened one, we each lit a cigarette. I can still see him because it was a very meaning. We didn't have a lot of meaningful conversations, but this one was. And I can still see him tapping the ashes into an empty Coke bottle. And eventually at a crucial part of the conversation, he dropped the cigarette into the Coke bottle. And I can still, as I sit here in your studio, see the smoke rising up into the Coke bottle. It's amazing what moments sort of stick with you.

I'll tell you why. Yeah. He says, I had just completed my first year of university. And he says, did you get your marks yet? I said, the marks came in the other day. He says, how did you do? I said, not great. Have they kicked you out?

No, they haven't kicked me out yet. Good, he says. You're all set for next year. And I said, you know what? I'm going to take next year off. Oh, yeah? What are you going to do? I said, I'm going to stay in here.

Earn some money. Work underground. I like working underground. It's a very macho thing to do. And it's very rewarding to go down there and come up at the end of day, bone tired, filthy, and have a shower and take the rest of the night. He looked at me and he says, you're going back. I said, I want to stay here.

He says, you're just passing through here, son. And I said, well, no, he said, you're going back. That's the only time he ever laid down the law, you're going back, boy. And you're not going to work like I did. and I guess I'm glad I didn't. No, that's, you know, I got like goosebumps here in that story because, yeah, he's basically saying he wants you to have a better life than he has.

Exactly, exactly. And better life than anybody in that line of McIntyre had ever had. It's like that scene in Goodwill Hunting or whatever when Ben Affleck goes off about how every day he hopes that whatever Matt Damon's character isn't there to do the construction work because he hopes for, you know, better for him.

So I hung in, and I remember, you know, I worked a couple of summers underground and I always kept a hard hat. There's a very distinctive underground miners hard hat. I always had mine on standby because I can those. You know, I wasn't making much money in journalism. My first job in journalism was $65 a week. And so I wasn't making a ton of money at that. And I always had this notion, well, I can always go back and do that other thing.

I liked it. I wasn't, I was young and strong. I could do whatever I had to do down there. And that her dad sat at my parents' home until my mother threw it out. Oh, I was going to ask if you still have it. Ah, she dumped it because she didn't watch it. It was a bad reminder. She was a school teacher.

Right. And she wanted me to do something more than work underground. And you did because now you're an FOTM. Now I'm not a school, and I'm not a school teacher either. So how do you get to the CBC? How do you end up at the CET? I'll tell you how I got there, Mike. This is another story that could take your hour.

But anyway... I'll give you two. You're Lyndon McIntyre for goodness sakes. I was a newspaper reporter in Cape Britain. And it was a very interesting time in Cape Breton. There was an awful lot going on in construction and development and politics and crime. And I was really just absolutely thrilled to be there. And I started reporting stuff a little bit more aggressively than the Halifax Chronicle Herald wanted.

Right. So they started to try to steer me into a sort of a more palatical. user-friendly kind of reporting. And I just wasn't doing what I was told. And they called me in one day, and they said, I'm afraid we have to let you go. We come to a parting of the ways was the exact phrase. And I said, okay, fine, that's your proprietorial right to do that.

When does this happen? And he looks up at a clock in the wall. It was three o'clock in the afternoon. He says at five o'clock today. You are gone. And anyway, I was gone. And eventually, the word, because I was an aggressive and sort of noticeable reporter, one of these local alternative newspapers published the fact that, and I still remember the headline,

Lyndon McIntyre gets the axe. And it was amazing. About four days later, I had four or five job offers, and one of them was the CBC. Oh, my goodness. So this is the Halifax, CBC and Halifax. They picked me up. And again, you know, this is starting to sound like. like a really happy story when I don't want it to be.

But the CBC picked me up and they decided to send me to Toronto for six weeks of training. Okay. Elite training. They were bringing in some of the best TV people in the world, performers, editors, camera people. They left me there for six weeks. And then when I came back, I worked for them for about 10 months. And they said, we want to give you your own show. And they did.

And it was a successful show. The McIntyre file. The very first program that we put on won what they used to call the Genie Awards and a national award. So, look, all this stuff was coming to me so easily that I just took it for granted. I talk to young people nowadays, you know, my kids' generation and younger people who, and they're struggling. And they're, you know, like they're creating their own blogs and their own media. And I'm thinking back with enormous guilt, how easy it was. You know what, though it's of the era, right?

Like, you can't, you know, give them a time machine, right? Like, so there are these things, you're right. I just, you know, Ben Raynor, do you know the name Ben Rayner? Yes, I do. Okay, so Ben Raynor, you know Renovicted? This is a new term I was introduced to, but now I'm seeing it happen all the time, but he was renovated, which basically means his landlord, I don't know if that term's even the term anymore, but doubled or tripled the rent or something.

And he simply couldn't, he was working at a music shop and he couldn't afford to live in Toronto. and he had to leave but he says for the past I think eight or nine months Ben Rainer has been homeless and jobless and sort of couch surfing and he's been he's a maritimer

himself I think his mom had a home in New Brunswick and he was sleeping on the couch there for a while but this is Ben Rayner a man about my age who I read that man's music columns in the Toronto Star every single time it was published I love Ben Rainer and he's been on the show many times

but yeah it's a different time There's no work for a great writer like Ben because he covers music. I think it's an interim period. I hope it is. We've ended one. It's all about delivery systems, the mass media.

So you still have, on one end of the production line, you have a whole bunch of people that like to do it and we'll do it for little or nothing. And on the other side, you have a whole mass of people who need the information,

who need the service. In between, you've got machinery and electronics and crap, that's going through a process of evolution, you have a whole class of proprietorship now that doesn't give a who to put either side of the equation. So they're trying to make as much money as they can off of the delivery system,

and the delivery system is not delivering much anymore. So what's happening, Mike? And here's where I have an optimistic sense. People like you are not, okay, I'm going to set up my own delivery system. It's true. It's happening. I'm setting up my own delivery system.

Let the proprietors make all the money they want, just don't get in my way. And you do it. I'm sitting here. I wish that the... This is happening. Should I be recording this, Lyndon? No, you shouldn't actually. This is getting embarrassing because I'm being too positive. That's Canadian in you. I've seen it before. And you have your studio here, you have your independence, and you have your life. And there are a lot like you out there now.

And the best of you will prevail and you'll become big, important, wealthy proprietor someday causing problems for everybody else. But for the time being, in this interim period, you're doing great stuff. And you're keeping the process alive. And in spite of this broken down, messed up delivery system that has evolved from printing presses and ink-stained wretches to now, I don't know what. Well, let me just pump your tires for a moment, Lyndon, and just tell you that this is only possible because good people like you, you know, veterans of the scene. Now you're a successful award-winning author. We have the new book we're going to talk about. We're still kind of getting, we've got to get you to Toronto here at the CBC.

but you're willing to actually visit, you know, a South Atobico Basement Studio, okay? I'm telling you, this is, sometimes I have these legacy musicians come down here and they wonder, where am I? Like, they're used to, you know, going to the CBC and going to some big glassy studio or something. And here they're in this basement and I'm like,

what's going on here? Well, thank you for visiting. I just want to say thank you for giving me an hour or four. History is going on here, Mike. This is where it begins. Once upon time began with weirdos on street corners, handing out pamphlets for two cents. And it evolved into the Globe and Mail and the New York Times.

And so Mike in his basement, you're actually well along the food chain now. And on the other end, there's a big glossy building with glass windows called Mike of Toronto. And Mike will be somewhere in a house. Somehow I was able to give Carol off a lasagna from Palma pasta. Like that's where we're at now. And I want to, this is, I know quickly going to jam this in here to say, I do have a lasagna in my freezer for you, and I got to ask you real quick here before I ask you about the McIntyre file,

something very important that happened while you were there. Did you eat any of the palm of pasta lasagna that your wife brought home last year? I did, and I'll go one better. She told me this morning, do not come home without the lasagna, she said. I don't know if it's a lasagna, but she said... It is lasagna. Okay, perfect. I'm okay.

It's in the freezer. I make sure I got a delicious palma pasta lasagna. So thank you, Palma Pasta. And real quick here, before, this is very important. I'm really setting it up here. But I have fresh craft beer for you, Lyndon, from Great Lakes Brewery. And I'm just going to tell the listenership that the Brood for You Fest is happening August 30. You can still get tickets.

It's amazing. Live music. Many Ontario craft breweries will be there. And you get a great glass, and it's just a great, great deal. So Brood for You Fest is at Great Lakes Brewery, August 30th. Lyndon, you've got your fresh craft beer. Can't wait to get home.

Look at you, look at you. You can drink it now if you like. So the McIntyre file, we're in Halifax still, but I need you to tell me this story about the legal challenge before the Supreme Court and how it affected, you know,

public and media access to information in this country. That was you. That was me. Well, let's hear it. Okay. There was a whole series of, of RCMP and local police raids in Halifax and around there.

And the raids were being executed on the offices of very prominent business people. And they were of both political parties. But the common denominator was that they were fundraisers. So the suspicion was that they were raising funds and there was a quid pro quo. You give his money and we'll give you favors later. And so I started sniffing around to find out just because these raids were not being publicized. and I remember I went to a very senior RCP officer in a white collar crime session

and he said you know if you were any good at your work he says you wouldn't be talking to me he said you'd be down to the courthouse finding all this out for yourself well I said it's not that easy he says yes it's a lot easier than you think he says you get down to courthouse and you ask for the information to obtain and he explained what that was he says this is a free country we can't just kick down doors and go in and take what we want

we have to get a court order that says we can and then to get the court order we have to explain why right so if you get any gumption you go down there and you find out there don't be asking me so i went down and i didn't tell the the court official who sent me i didn't tell him who i'd been talking to i just said i want to see the information to obtain blah blah blah and he looked at me as if i had asked to see his personal bank account he's you're never going to see that and i says well i'm entitled to and he says no you're not as a matter of fact he said I was sitting in a chair like this

with a big filing cabinet like a six inches behind my head he said the drawer right behind your head what you want is in there and you might as well be a thousand miles away from it and I said well I'm told that I'm entitled to that information and I said bluffing

I'm going and this was in the basement of a cordhoe big court hose I said I might have to drag your ass upstairs and get a judge to tell you he says drag away he says drag away now get out so i i left and these were the days i got everything i need to communicate with the world in my pocket right now but those were the days of the banks of pay phones outside of courthouses right i was walking by had a quartered in my pocket dropped it in the pay phone and i called a lawyer that i knew i said i got this situation and this is a young life he's in his 20s he says wow i smell a big one

he says let me talk to the partners the next morning they decided they were taking this on and it went to the Supreme Court of Nova Scotia and with a great regret Supreme Court judge in Nova Scotia says yeah unfortunately the kid is right and they took it to the Supreme Court of Canada the government of Nova Scotia

they took it to the Supreme Court of Canada and two years later after the story I wanted to do was long gone two years later the Supreme Court of Canada said yeah afraid the kid's right McIntyre versus the Attorney General of Nova Scotia, McIntyre wins. Wow.

Yeah. And so that president... That's huge. That precedent has been used hundreds of times to get access to inform a courtroom information about search warrants

and various other aspects of the system. Look at you. See, that's fantastic that victory for media in this company. Yeah, okay. It was a couple of young, smart young lawyers actually carried the ball.

Okay. You know, I just basically assigned them. Your name was on. it. My name is on it. That's the big, Clayton Ruby, the late famous criminal lawyer. I was interviewing one day and he said, stop the camera. I said, what? He says, you're not McIntyre of McIntyre versus blah, blah, blah. And I said, I am. And he says, holy shit. He says, how does it feel to be your age and have your principal work already established for all time in the criminal code of Canada? And I said, I never really thought of that. And he says, well, you better start.

They're thinking of it now. Now, what were you asking me? And then you end up in Toronto. Yes, I ended up in Toronto working in television for the, I don't know how many people can remember this, but there was a program on after the National called The Journal. Nolton Nash, right? No, Norton, this was, this was, Nolton was gone, Peter Mansbridge took over, and then they had a separate program with Barbara Frum.

Right. And this was a very ambitious CBC thing. sent you all over the world on big stories. And I was lucky enough to work in there for a number of years. Okay, geez, no. Okay, any highlights of these trips around the world? Oh, God. I know, I know.

We don't have that kind of time, right? But maybe one that sticks out? Well, one that, there's a couple stick out. One, the big one that sticks out was the massacre in Lebanon in 1982. I just happened to be in there. That was in the net of Lebanon now and then. during the violence. And I just happened to be in,

I was actually in Jerusalem on my way to Lebanon and I was talking to somebody from the Palestinian side. And the guy took a phone call and he went, wait in the face. And he hung up and he says, I have to end this conversation.

He says there's been an awful massacre in Beirut. A couple of these, the Israelis blocked off access to two refugee camps and a Christian militia went into those refugee camps and they've killed countless numbers of people. Long story short, I went up there

and I got into those camps a couple of days after the massacre and I never forgot it. Oh my goodness gracious. My goodness gracious. And you also did that notable feature on acid rain, right? I did, that was one of the first things I did before I went to the journal.

Yeah, I did acid rain. I know I don't like talking about the old stories because I didn't do these things all by myself. Right. I did these things with all kinds of help. In the camps in Beirut,

I had a cameraman and a sound man with me. They were all equally traumatized by it, and they never had the outlet to sort of like yak, yak, yak. And eventually I wrote a novel inspired by that experience called The Only Cafe about a young guy runs into somebody in Camp Cafe in Toronto who takes them back to that. scene so yeah I always had and this is this is the importance of being able to write stuff

and to have audiences and to have you know people in the middle of yourself who give us our voice it's that you can get it you can process things that that other people in the system don't get a chance to process and so I've been processing a lot of stuff through fiction and nonfiction and just cranking out books over the years more or less for my mental health as much as anything else well I'm going to make sure we devote a good chunk of time to you as a novelist, because here we are, we're almost done here, but I would love to hear about your time at the Fifth Estate.

The Fifth Estate, again, I was at the Fifth Estate for 24 years, and I just can't even begin to scratch the surface. I suppose the most personally affecting thing I did there was a program we called The Trouble with Evan. It was about a little boy in Hamilton, who was in a dysfunctional family. and who was turned into one of these holy terrors that everybody knows about.

And he was, so we decided, let's dive down into that and find out what makes him a holy terror. And the short story is that what made him a holy terror was the home life he had. And in the course of that, that got a huge amount of attention. And in the course of that,

a young fellow in his 20s, he was in the special handling unit of the Canadian Correction System in Prince Albert, Saskatchewan. He wrote to me and he said, I just want to thank you for publishing that. I hope everybody saw it because this kid is heading down the exact same road where I am. And he says, I'm 27 doing 47 in the Canadian Correctional System. Get to him, do something to help him.

He became a friend, this inmate. And he and I, we related to each other for five years. They moved him into Ontario system. I used to go and see him a lot. I had him pretty well talked into working his way out at prison the right way. A lot of the time he was serving was for escaping. Anyway, I thought I had him persuaded. He escaped again, and he managed to get himself killed in the process.

So, I can't really think much about the Fifth Estate without bumping up against that particular story. But there were many, many of these stories. I have in my calendar, Lauren Honickman. visiting next week. Lauren Honnickman's all over. There's a Crave documentary series that's out about the Christine Jessup murder.

You covered that, right? I did, yes, I did. Guy Paul Moran had been convicted. First of all, he was acquitted. The Crown appealed, and then he was convicted. I said, well, one of these decisions is wrong. So we dug down into it, got his confidence, got the confidence of his legal team,

were completely shut down by the Crown. So this is starting to tell me where the flaws are. Anyway, we did it. And long story short, with a lot of help from the people for the wrongfully convicted and various other organizations that got on board behind Guy Paul. The guy was eventually exonerated, not just sort of found, he was exonerated by the Supreme Court. And he's now somewhere in Ontario leading a perfectly normal life, married with kids. kids and employment and all that sort of stuff.

He doesn't talk about this. I tried to get him to talk about it a few years ago. He says, no, no, that's behind me. He says, I got sick of answering the questions and talking to people. Oh, so you're so-and-so. And he says, I don't get that anymore. I don't want to start it up against him. Anyway, that was an important.

How many years did we steal from that man? We stole a good 10, at least 10, because the time that he was in that awful system that he was in, and before he was eventually sent to Kingston Penitentiary, which was where we found him. At least 10 years went by. The other big one was Stephen Truscott. Truscott had been found guilty when he was like 14 or 15 years old of killing a child, schoolmate, and sentenced to death.

And, you know, the government of the day in the 50s got feeling kind of like, this isn't going to work out. It's going to give us a black eye. And they changed, turned it into a life sentence. years and years later somebody decided let's have another look at that Truscott case

and we did and when we finished our piece it became part of a movement that got a complete judicial review of that entire ancient case and at the end of the day that one was not just overturned he was exonerated totally

he did not do it and go about your life and Stephen went about his life after that Now, because of Lauren's visit, I was, you know, digging into the Christine Jessup murder, and he was nine years old. But the DNA eventually identified the real killer. Well, first of all, it exonerated DeGi Paul. And then a few years later, it was, DNA just keeps evolving and evolving and evolving and evolving.

Calvin Hoover was the man who murdered Christine Jessup. And this name, Calvin Hoover, this wasn't on your radar at all. no not at all we had a lot of names on the radar and not that one and uh you know we were embarrassing people you know we're tracking them down and ambushing them here and there and poor buggers had nothing to do with it and uh you know like that that's the way you work but his he he was he was so close to the family he was a friend of the family he was a friend of christine's dad right and neighborhood he was apparently i'm what i read he went on and searching for the body and all that stuff.

And, you know, the cynicism of that just, and then he died before they actually got him. My goodness. The Boston Marathon bombing, I was active on Reddit, right? There's like an aggregator, social media aggregator site. And they all got together, decided they would find out who was responsible. And in real time, they all amateur detectives on Reddit all determined they knew who it was. and they named this person, and it wasn't that person at all.

No. No, that's, I mean, that happens more often than we would like to think. But, you know, the race to judgment under the pressure of public outrage is a really, it's a really serious factor in the injustice. Police now, they will over-publicize the horrible nature of a crime in order to get people to come forward and give information. But what it does is it does generate a serious outrage, a lot of public pressure to get results. And the results, the public pressure translates into political pressure,

and the policemen are susceptible to that as anybody in the system. So way they go. We've got to brag somebody, and we have to appear to be making progress. So we'll grab this fellow in, and we'll start the process, and the process will eventually, if he's not guilty, it'll send him back into the world. It doesn't work that way. Even the process itself leaves you with a mark.

Sure, you get stigmatized just by being accused of a crime like that. Now, it's, I know you agree with me, but better to get it right than get it first. And I think we've lost a lot of that. You should see what it's like in the sports media world. I know that's the toy department, Lyndon, but this race to get it first seems to be trumping the race to get it right. But, okay, so you mentioned 24 years at the fifth estate. Yeah. That brings us to 2014.

why did you decide to retire from the CBC? I decided to retire, first of all, because I was there for 24 years, and I was 50 years in journalism. And I'll tell you when the epiphany happened. I was at one of those great big staff gatherings of CBC people and were big bosses on the line from various places, and they were announcing yet another layoff.

And anybody who wanted to ask questions could walk up to a month, and ask the questions. And I was watching these people walking up to the mics and asking questions. I didn't have any questions. But every single one of them was motivated by insecurity. They were young people. A lot of them were on temporary contracts. A lot of them were on probationary status. And they were, what's my future? And I'm sitting here, smugly, I don't have to worry about my future. And it crossed my mind within the days after that. You know what? See, Fifth Estate does not need four hosts and I'm one of the four and I could easily step back and liberate enough money from what they pay me to use somebody more useful to put somebody more useful in a job or to keep

at that point the fifth estate was being told you got to lose people and I knew they were going to lose young people they were you going to use women mostly they were going to use the least experience lose the and and some of those people were the most gifted people on the show so I said to the bus. What if I go? And he says, well, we don't want you to go. And I said, okay, let's say you got no choice. I'm going to go. Will you give me an undertaking that you're going to work with three hosts and use your budget for other people? He says, I think I can do that. And I went. And within the years, they replaced me with another bloody host. So they reneged on their. Well, I don't know if they reneged or they were overruled or something. But any regrets, Lyndon? Any regrets? No, I never

regretted that. I did not. I did you have another career here. Well, I had a book coming out at that time and I never really thought of it like that. At the time I was getting up in years and I knew that you know, there were other things I could do. You know, that boyhood thing about writing books and telling big stories. It was still quite alive in me and I said, maybe I'll spend more time at that because I used to have to write my books by getting up at 5 o'clock in the morning. I used to say, to get the job done between five and nine, and then let nine to five look after itself. And so that's how I got most of the books written.

And now I don't have to do that. I can write when I want to. So good on you, because I feel like you fell on the sword to save some... Well, no, I don't want you to even say that. I mean, I just quit, and other people... But you quit. On your way out, there was a gentleman's agreement of some sort that you would save some younger careers.

even if it was a renege. The intention was very good. And I'm just going to chime in here as just Toronto Mike, surveyor of the media landscape in this country because somebody's got to do it, Lyndon. I know. Might as well be me because somebody's going to do it.

There is a value in having somebody with the experience that you had and you're not just some old coot, right? You've been there. You've seen some shit, Lyndon. That's invaluable. I just think we have lost some respect for the actual white hairs out there

who have been around and seen this and they can refer to what they saw in 1976 or 1980 and then remember what happened in 1984 with Guy Paul Moran etc., etc. So there is a value in having the veterans like you. You're not just guys who have been there 24 years and bringing down the big salaries

so the young people can't up. I'm just going to throw it out there. I see the value in having a Lyndon McIntyre on your team. You're going to mention the book at all, Mike? It's coming right now. We just said, it's all book. I got a fellow sitting beside me who's going to whip my Listen, Scott knows it's all book rest of the way,

and he's promised me an hour of your time, so I've got 20 minutes all books coming here right now. So I'll just very, very quickly, Lyndon, and then I'll book the rest of the way. I'm going to thank you, of course, but I'm actually going to thank Blue Sky Agency, the newest sponsor of Toronto Mike, for stepping up. And I urge anyone listening who is looking for a creative work environment,

a dynamic and creative work environment. Right, Doug, he's dug at bluesky agency. dot CA. Let them know you're an FOTM and talk to Doug Mills from Blue Sky Agency about the office furniture brands that he works with and how he can help your environment. Shout out to Ridley Funeral Home. Of course, Life's Undertaking Records Later Today. And that's a great podcast that Brad Jones and I host for Ridley Funeral Home. The Waterfront has a bunch of great summer activities and events. Still going. We still got summer left. We're in late August here. And the air show is coming up this next Labor Day long weekend. So get your

butts to the waterfront and enjoy the Canada's longest running air show. If you have old electronics, old cables, old devices, don't throw them in the garbage, linden, because those chemicals end up in our landfill. Go to recyclemyelectronics.ca, put in your poster code and find out where you can drop that off to be properly recycled. And a quick note on the Toronto Maple Leafs, I was at the game at Christy Pits last night, hoping that we could wrap up this series against the Barry Baycats. Have you ever seen a Toronto Maple Leafs?

game at Christy Pitts, Lyndon. No, I have not. Well, I'm giving you a book, because I've got your book, and this is the history of Toronto Maple Leafs Baseball, and maybe it'll entice you next season to get back there. Absolutely, thank you. So we have to win and bury tonight, like there's a game tonight,

and we have to win it in order to go to the second round. So I will report back on Toronto Mike when the games happen next round, because I'm crossing my fingers, the Leap's win tonight. Okay, Lyndid, it's all books the rest of the way, because I don't want to upset Scott. He's the heavy in the room. I didn't, I don't know if I pointed that out later, but you're a natural-born storyteller.

Anyone who's been listening for the last 40 minutes knows that. But what was your first novel? First novel was called The Long Stretch. And it was sort of a bee in my bonnet for a very long time about why certain families become dysfunctional. And I decided one of the reasons, my generation was wartime experience, second world war, and even First World War.

and people were coming back back in those days there was no such a thing as PTSD it was called shell shock and and there were a lot of really damaged people around people with limbs missing people with bad drinking habits and people with volatile tempers and you would see this around and then you would next generation down you would see the consequences in the school room you know their children their grandchildren were like whoa there's something wrong with that person

and I got it in my head that that wartime trauma will migrate through time, through the genealogy of the survivors of those wars. And so I made up a story about a couple of guys, one of whom was in the war and one of whom wasn't, and there were neighbors, and how their families turned out, basically. And I wrote it, and nobody seemed very interested in it.

But there was a neighbor of mine, he was a literary agent. He says, I'd like you to write a history of Canada, the U.S. relations and the border between the two countries, and he said, write up a proposal, and I'll take it to Jack Stoddard, who had a publishing company at the time. So I wrote up a proposal, and we took it to Jack Stoddard,

and Jack says, well, this guy's TV, can he write? Oh, yeah, he has a manuscript for a novel. And, well, Jack says, I'd like to see it, just make sure that the guy can put two pages together. Right. And so the rest is one of those stories. Jack read the novel and he says I don't want your history story

That's boring I want this And he published a novel And then It got attention Somebody said well you write a memoir I said I don't ever want to write a memoir Well we want something about your past life

Well I'll write about my past life But it won't be a memoir So I wrote something about my past life By growing up in a place that changed dramatically Because it Causeway linked Cape Breton Island To the rest of the world I wrote that story That was very successful.

But what was that one called? It was called Causeway, a passage from innocence. And then there was a book called, and then I wrote a book about Ty Khan, the inmate I was telling you, who got himself killed. I wrote, and then I started a spin-off from that long-stretch book.

I had a character in that book who was a priest. I said, I'm going to write a story about a priest who never was meant to be a priest, and because he was never meant to be a priest, He has a particular personality that becomes useful to the bishop. And the bishop begins to use this guy, who's hard-nosed fellow, who sort of spoke straight to people. The bishop started to use him to go out into the communities

that were complaining about priests who were going astray and getting involved in the abuse of children and what have you. So the bishop basically assigned him to be his man. And the book became, the novel became the bishop's man. and what he did and how it affected him. And that was sort of like the breakthrough book. That's sold tons. I introduced you, Lyndon, as a Giller Prize winner.

That was the Giller Prize book. That's amazing. So that was the 2009. You know, everything's got to have a financial backer now. So they're calling this the Scotia Bank Giller Prize. Everything's for sale. So the 2009 Scotiabank Giller Prize, you won that for the Bishop's Man,

which is like the second in your Cape Breton trilogy. That's what they called it, yes. And so I decided, I didn't intend to write a trilogy, but I wrote another novel that involved some of the characters. Originally from the long stretch, recycled in the Bishop's Man, and then I wrote a book, probably my most intriguing title called Why Men Lie?

And everybody saw, wow. I was in a broadcast studio one day waiting to go on to do a little plug for the book, and nobody knew who I was. and there were some women there and they were watching the internal screen and the book cover comes up after this blah blah blah we're going to talk about that book and one of the women turned to the other

man I can't wait for that I wonder what she has to say so anyway provocative title but I just want to ask you about an award you won for the bishops man and then of course I really need to know in great detail everything about

an accidental villain a soldier's tale of war deceit and exile but the Liberous Fiction Book of the Year award, you won this in 2010 for the Bishop's Man. Now, part of my ignorance, what do I know? I'm a dummy over here, but that's a prestigious award, isn't it? Because it's an award is picked by booksellers.

Yeah. And it's an award that sort of recognition of commercial success, which is not unrelated to artistic success of any particular book, and that was good for the book business and the booksellers and all the rest of it. And I was very proud of that award. Well, you should be. You absolutely should be.

Now, please, what can you tell us about the newest book? Literally just dropped. Do we use that terminology in the book world? Do we drop these things? But an accidental villain, a soldier's tale of war, deceit, and exile. Please tell me about this. I'm always listening for stories. And I hear lots of stories that aren't going to be books.

But this one intrigued me totally because I was reading an academic paper about another story that involved Winston Churchill and the President of the United States, Franklin D. Roosevelt, and a meeting they held on the south coast of, on a battleship on the south coast of Newfoundland in 1941. In 1941, Churchill was losing the war. The allies were all losing the war. Americans weren't in it. Churchill was there to kind of persuade the Americans to get in the bloody war.

and in the middle of this intense meeting, he sends a message to St. John's that he basically wants his old pal, Hugh Tudor, Sir Hugh Tudor, to come over to the battleship and have lunch. And I'm saying, oh my God, what was that friendship about? Hugh Tudor lived in St. John's. And so I started to dig on that, and I find that the man in St. John's was actually a fugitive

or in exile because of his behavior during the Irish War of Independence, 1920, 22. And long story short, I have to make it that, but he was a long-standing, close friend of Churchill. They met in India as young officers in the 1890s. Churchill was the minister of war in 1920. He needed somebody to go in there and kick the pants off the Irish Republican army. He didn't want to hand it over to the British Army officially because it would be bad, look bad internationally to have, you know,

an army suppression happening on your doorstep. He called the Irish Rebellion a crime wave. He decided to define the rebels as criminals, and he decided to put the responsibility for ending this on the Royal Irish Constabulary, a police force. And he hired his old buddy, General Tudor, to run the police force. Tudor goes to Ireland. He doesn't care about it.

The Irish doesn't get... He immediately finds out this is not the kind of war I'm used to. This is an insurgency. People in civilian clothes conducting all kinds of terrorist tactics. And the only way I can handle this is to embrace their tactics. And so he turned the Irish police into almost an anti-terrorist terror organization. He was presiding over a large proportion of the police who had been recruited in England and Scotland, who were really hard-assed veterans of the First World War,

really bigoted about the Irish and just brutal. A lot of them were damaged by the war. So they get turned loose and, of course, over the next 20 months, they hammered the IRA. The IRA hammers back, but they got more hammer. And after about 20 months of this, the IRA says, okay, maybe we should be talking. And they sat down then to talk treaty and future

with these English diplomats. and politicians who just basically ate their lunch and left them with a treaty that created the grounds for another for a civil war in Ireland, which the Irish started to kill each other. And it was a bloodier, more nasty war than the war of independence was. But the English could sit back, the British could sit back, and watch it all play out in their interests. Well, as any fan of U-2 knows, Sunday Bloody Sunday, big U-2 jam,

and you had a role in that, right? Well, there were two Bloody Sundays now. Oh, there's two Bloody Sundays. Yeah, there was a Bloody Sunday in, I think, 1972 in Northern Ireland. There's probably the U-2 one. But the first Bloody Sunday and the worst Bloody Sunday was in, if anybody who saw the movie Collins, Michael Collins, that Bloody Sunday was a highlight of that movie, and it was in 1920,

and it involved an assassination, a mass assassination, by the IRA of British officers and then what was probably a retaliatory attack on a football match in Dublin that afternoon. So the IRA killed about 16 people in this targeted attack.

The British Army and mostly this guy's policeman, he was responsible and accountable for the Bloody Sunday massacre in the football stadium. And they killed another 16 or so people, just ordinary people at a football match. And so there was a hullabaloo over that.

And the interesting thing is that the General Tudor and the senior officers who were responsible for that afternoon, Massacre, weren't even asked to testify at an inquiry. But he walked away with that on his conscience and the blood on his hands, plus a whole lot of other stuff. But at the end of the day, the British came out of Ireland with a deal that was good for them and Lloyd George wrote his fellow, a thank you note, said, we couldn't have prevailed in this conflict without your help.

So thank you. He was knighted for his efforts in a moment. He was knighted for that. Churchill realized that Tudor's life wasn't worth five cents after that because he was going to be hunted down wherever he went. So Churchill assigned him to another police management job in Palestine. And he was there for about two years, and then Churchill was defeated.

politics. The government fell and General Tudor is stranded in Palestine. So fast forward another year or so and he finds himself in where he considers to be the safest place on the planet Newfoundland. The place of your birth.

Place of my birth. And so the reason he picked Newfoundland, he would never been there. He didn't know the place from Iceland. But during the First World War, he was a divisional commander. He had a battalion of Newfoundlanders under his command in the First World War. and they were quite impressive.

One of them was a 17-year-old boy from a little village up in the north-east coast of Newfoundland who won the Victoria Cross. He had illegally climbed into the army at the age of 15. Two years later, he was a hardened soldier. He won the Victoria Cross for gallantry. And that was under Tudor's command. So when Tudor shows up in Newfoundland,

I need a place where I can feel safe. Newfoundlander says, come on in. We won't give you any trouble. We're not going to give you any favors, but we won't give you any trouble. How long did it take you to write an accidental villain? It took about five years. Wow.

Because first of all, I found out a little bit too late that the secret of survival was to keep his mouth shut and not write stuff down and not going around like so many war generals and officers and politicians writing self-serving memoirs. He didn't do that. So there was really nothing on the record that you could get your teeth into. So I had to start from scratch and then COVID sets. So the place you start from scratch is libraries and archives and various trips here and there, and I couldn't do any of that. So I had to learn how to basically mine the Internet and get into all kinds of digitized documents all over the place.

And I found a couple of people who were helpful when I finally could travel. But it took a long, long time. Anybody who ever tried to figure out the Irish War of Independence will understand that it is impenetrably complicated, which I thought it was all very simple. My knowledge was based on Irish songs, folk songs about the good guys and the bad guys. It's very, very complicated. So, you know, it took a very long time to put this together.

And then the other challenge is to make history and politics sound like a, you know, like a story. Right. Sound interesting and compelling to bring characters, put flesh on characters and make them, you can either hate or love or somehow relate to. It was an extremely kind, almost burned me out to get that. written, but they got it written.

And there must be a sense of relief now that here you are making the rounds to tell people about an accidental villain. And like you said, it's printed and heard cover. Like this is done now. And it sounds like I'll say that this last hour with you has been fascinating. You're a natural-born storyteller. And this story that you tell in an accidental villain sounds absolutely fascinating and it's exciting.

People can buy it right now. Like that must be a sense of relief for you. First week on the market, it became number one bestseller in Canada. Now, where it will be in the second and third and fourth week, but that was pretty satisfied. You should feel a great sense of accomplishment. You should feel proud of your entire career, including this latest effort.

And do you already know what your next book is about? I'm working on something. It's a fiction book. It's about somebody who reads just the age of 70, and he thinks all the excitement has gone from his life, but a lot of the early excitement starts to come back, and he has to cope with it. Yeah, you sure that's fiction?

Maybe that's the Lyndon McIntyre's there. You know what? you might have your finger on the pulse. Okay, so here's my, on our way out here, because we didn't, I didn't want to pry, but listeners will want to know, you know, how and when, I know you both worked for the same other corporation here, but how and when

do you meet and fall in love with the legend that is Carolom? We were both in one of those awkward points of our lives who were reinventing ourselves emotionally, and we end up working in the same general area. She was a producer working out of Ottawa. I was a host working out of Toronto. Paths crossed.

Paths started to cross more frequently. Paths turned into lunches and long conversations. And then breakfast? Of course, yeah. The famous politician who got caught in Ottawa once upon him, he was told that you had dinner with her this night, right? And then you had breakfast with her. Yeah, but that was about four nights later.

So, yeah, so I'm not saying that that's proximity of the breakfast to the dinners, okay? One day my dream is maybe when this next book comes out or if Carol's next book comes out. But you two together in the basement, Scott, we've got to get Carol, put his thumbs up. Then you'd need four-hour program. You know what, I got the time. I just need a bigger hard drive. That's all. I'll go to get one at the Best Buy.

But Lyndon, this was like a great privilege and pleasure for me. And good luck with this wonderful new book you've got out there. What's next? like breakfast television? Like, how do you follow up at Toronto Mike? No, a rock and chair on the front porch. I'll join you. You got the fresh craft beers, so enjoy.

And thank you again for this. This was awesome. Great, Mike. I have a pleasure to be here. And that brings us to the end of our 1,750 second show. Go to tronomike.com for all your Toronto mic needs. Get a copy or two of the wonderful new book from my guest, Lyndon McIntyre. An Accidental Villain.

Get it today. Do you have a preference, Lyndon? Would you rather people go to an independent bookstore, or you don't care? Just get it in a minute. Well, I just want them to buy the book, but I am a great supporter of independent bookstores. Okay, do that.

Make Lyndon's Day. He's earned it here. Okay. Much love to all who made this possible. That is Great Lakes Brewery. Brood for You Fest is August 30th. Palm of Pasta. I've got a lasagna for Lyndon and Carol, apparently.

They can share this. Toronto's Waterfront, BIA, air show this coming weekend. Toronto Maple Leafs Baseball. Cross your fingers. We have more games at Christy Pits this season. Recyclemyelectronics.ca. Blue Sky Agency and Ridley Funeral Home. Join me tomorrow. I'm going into the calendar because I have a 145 p.m.

His name is Jack Berkovitz. He's got quite the story. He tells me he was fired from 640, 1010, and Saga 960, and he wants to talk about it. So this will be fun. Jack Berkowitz in the basement tomorrow. See you all then. I'm going to be able to be.

I'm going to be able to be. Thank you. Thank you.