Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Liz Braun: Toronto Mike'd #1070

Episode Date: June 24, 2022

In this 1070th episode of Toronto Mike'd, Mike chats with Liz Braun from the Toronto Sun about working for Bernie Finkelstein, working in PR, moving to the Toronto Sun in 1985 and her Sun colleagues through the years. We also talk about her recent coverage of the allegations against John Derringer and Corus's investigation. Toronto Mike'd is proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, Canna Cabana, StickerYou, Ridley Funeral Home and Duer Pants and Shorts.

Welcome to episode 1070 of Toronto Mic'd. Proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery. A fiercely independent craft brewery who believes in supporting communities, good times, and brewing amazing beer. Order online for free local home delivery in the GTA. StickerU.com. Create custom stickers, labels, tattoos, and decals for your home and your business. Palma Pasta. Enjoy the taste of fresh, homemade Italian pasta and entrees from Palma Pasta in Mississauga and Oakville.

Dewar. The world's most comfortable pants and shorts. Save 15% with the promo code TMDS. Ridley Funeral Home, pillars of the community since 1921. And Canna Cabana, the lowest prices

on cannabis. Guaranteed. Over 100 stores across the country. Learn more at cannacabana.com. Today, making her Toronto make debut from the Toronto sun is Liz Braun. Welcome, Liz. Thank you. Thank you and good morning.

I'm looking at the very pretty labels on these great brewery beer cans, but honestly, when you got to Dewars, I thought you were going to say the most comfortable scotch. Well, I'm telling you, Liz, I can't wait to get into it with you. So much ground I want to cover with you. But can I reveal to the listenership that you said you were nervous. Is that talking out of school?

Is it me or is it you're just nervous about any live microphone what's the deal there i'm just a nervous person i think it's constitutional and certainly when you're asked to speak up and think fast i'm like what do you do a lot of like uh will you like will you do a lot of television or radio uh hits like will you be uh on the mic to talk about i don't know some big entertainment story in the city or whatever does this happen often for you? I did it a lot years ago. I haven't done it lately. And the Toronto Sun doesn't really have

a full-on entertainment section anymore. I think the Globe and Mail may be the last paper in the city that does. I have noticed. I have observed this myself. Many people will come over. I'm thinking now of good people like Peter Howell. Absolutely.

Ben Rayner even. I think a lot of great FOTMs. By the way, congratulations. You're now an FOTM, Liz. That's Friend of Toronto Mic'd. Thank you. But I was a friend before. I didn't have to be here to be a friend.

So you're, how, and again, lots of ground to cover, but how aware are you of what's happening in this neck of the woods? I mean, is Liz Braun from the Toronto Sun aware of Toronto Mike? Isn't Toronto Mike? Isn't everyone aware of you? Let me hear it. And by the way, you're a soft-spoken woman. I'm just going to remind you.

Sorry, sorry, Mike. I'll speak up. Okay. Because I'm boosting you like crazy here, but it's like I'm going to need you to project. I'm probably too short to reach the microphone. Everybody knows you just did your, you had a big celebration, what, four or five months ago for your thousands podcast? Where was the Toronto Sun coverage of my 1,000th episode?

Well, you know, Toronto Sun coverage is increasingly political. I think I can put it that way. Okay. And yeah, there we are. So they said no because I bike too much. They want me to be more of a motorist. No, I think the issue is that local stuff is harder and harder to cover.

Although I will say for the Sun, and I'm sorry to interrupt you, but the sports section seems to be an exception to this, right? The sports guys come over, and they're all guys by the way, but they're great and they're still kicking ass. I got Steve Simmons is back in the calendar. And I think almost every single member of the Sun Sports Department

has paid a visit here to the studio. It's a pretty serious group. I mean, they're a lot of fun, but yeah, they're very well respected. Entertainment and sports really were the two sections that I think made that paper in its heyday. The little paper that grew. Yeah, I don't think it's unfair to say that print is in a funny position, that things are really changing,

and online is where I guess everybody's headed. I don't know. Well, there's nowhere else to go, I guess. I guess. But now back to the, I don't, I've got to get back to when you were saying something about everybody knows Toronto Mike. I'm curious only because this is a, you know,

a thing I just invented in my basement, but you know, 10 years running, but 1,070 episodes. But I'm always curious what the mainstream media thinks of what's happening here. Oh, but podcasts are, are sort of it, Mike. You can't be serious with that question. I woke up thinking about people I wanted to ask you about if you've had them on the show.

Okay, you want to do that? Because one person I've had on the show when I was looking into your history, because yeah, you've spent a long time at The Sun, but you didn't start at The Sun. No. Like Bernie Finkelstein's been over here. You worked with Bernie back...

I love that man. Yes. Okay, talk about that man because that man is, we've been flirting with me getting Bruce Colburn on the show for a long time and it's all thanks to Bernie

who's a great FOTM himself. He appeared on that episode 1000 but tell me how you know Bernie and tell me any Bernie story. Any Bernie story. I was right out of university when I started working for True North Records

and I think the connection was probably the riverboat. Because we would go there, we met Bernie Fiedler, we met Bernie Finkelstein. And they just needed somebody, you know, there was no internet, boys and girls. They needed somebody who could answer the phone and, and write a press release. So I mean, what can I tell you? These guys, when you say he wants you to have Bruce Coburn. Well, I want Bruce Coburn. Yeah, have Bruce Coburn.

You know, I have different stories. Dan Hill used to eat my lunch. I don't know what's it's like. Sometimes when we touch. Yeah. Anyway, those were some very interesting times. Very interesting times. And was this the 70s?

Is that where we're going back to? Late 70s, yes. Late 70s. And you were doing PR for Bernie's? No, no, no. You were his assistant. Yeah, I ran the office. There was one publicity person in the music business then,

Jim Monaco at A&M Records. And then came Linda Daw. And then slowly it became a career. And that's how I ended up being a publicist at Columbia. But yeah, it started with the Bernies. Wow, okay. And he's in

where is he now? He's in Prince Edward County, I think so. Yeah, he's in the city too. Bernie is such a sage. I asked him a question about a Canadian recording artist who shall remain nameless, and he said to me, Liz, unless I was a bug collector, why would I pick up a cockroach?

I thought, oh, he's so wise. Dying to know who that recording artist was. Wow. Well, yeah, never mind. Anyway. Moving on here. Now, okay, so since we're going back before we get to the sun here,

and again, if you have any questions for me, I want you to know, please be comfortable to ask me any questions, any commentary. You did not hit your head on the way to the microphone, but it would have been close, I think. No, I didn't hit my head at all. It's very nifty down here.

Long before the pandemic, you were lucky enough to create something that let you work at home. So I have only admiration for you, sir. But you, as somebody who writes for the Toronto Sun, you no longer have to go near the office, right? Like your office is wherever, whatever you're covering, like wherever you are.

Am I right? More or less. We were certainly home during the pandemic that's supposed to change soon uh we'll see i may try to play the age card and just say oh don't be silly i'm much too old to be in an office but we'll see well we'll hopefully you get to remain at home that's where the the heart is you know well that's where the washer and dryer are so you can actually get something done during a work day smart okay yeah and i did so when did i start tmds i'm thinking 2018 maybe so i actually oh but i've been working from home when i had a full-time job of a software company i still work from home i've been working from home since i get my years wrong here but i'm gonna say 20 2013, I'm going to say, is when I started working from home.

And then 2018, I started up TMDS. And this is like the flagship show that you're on right now, making your debut. This is Toronto Mic, episode 1070. I want to tell the listeners really quickly here that there is a special episode 1071, which is going to be all about Q107.

See what I did there? 1071, which is going to be all about Q107. See what I did there? 1071 is the number. I thought we might be talking about Q107 today. We will. Okay, good. We will. We'll get to know you a little better, and then we'll get to current events. And there's a big current event that broke on your drive here,

which I also want to kind of chat with you about. And that's an American story, but we will talk about Q107. And I know you've been covering the derringer allegations for the toronto sun i want to catch up with you on all that but can you go back so bernie finkelstein you're like an assistant and then when you're working for the record labels is it uh the what kind of bands were you involved with the ramones like who who were you involved absolutely. I don't even know where to start. The first place I worked was GRT Records. So I used to have a job at a drugstore near an A&A Records when I was an undergraduate. Every day I sold a pack of cigarettes to a guy named Jeff Burns.

Anyway, years later, somebody at GRT said, We really need a publicist. Does anyone know anyone who went to university or who can write? And Jeff Burns said, yes, that girl at the drugstore. I know she finished at U of T. So I was at Bernie's then. They hired me there. And they were distributors.

So I worked with Bob Marley and just unbelievable people, classical artists too. And country acts, I had to take Peter Gabriel to see the Ramones. I didn't know who Peter Gabriel was. Because you weren't a Genesis fan. No, I just was not a British prog rock. I never got past Motown, really. Oh, interesting. So all I know is that this very diminutive English person in a jumpsuit

was coming with me to the New Yorker Theater to see the Ramones, who were just obnoxious kids from New Jersey. It's kind of a different perspective when you're on that side of music. But fascinating, because the Ramones are the Ramones, for goodness sakes, and Peter Gabriel is Peter Gabriel. What kind of guy was Peter Gabriel? I guess very Very sweet. Very quiet.

The New Yorker Theater had huge, blown-up posters of Genesis when they wore costumes. And I'm still clueless. Absolutely had no idea who he was. Anyway, when I moved to Columbia Records, the talent just increased. I mean, they had everybody. They had Pink Floyd had pink floyd and springsteen and elvis costello a lot of great country acts i got to work with george jones wow yeah which i he might mean i mean i'm not a country guy but i recognize that he might be the

definitive uh the greatest country musician of all time he He was a lunatic, I can tell you that. Okay, because... Yeah. But just on the rock side, it was just an endless parade of, you know, Ted Nugent. Endless parade of not talent and plenty of idiots, but some pretty interesting artists. Who's that being? Ted Nugent must be the biggest idiot. Could there be... Complete idiot, yeah.

He's still demonstrating that to this day. Yeah. He's still, still demonstrating that to this day. Yeah. Yeah. I was always concerned by the age of his groupies. You know, you're backstage

and you think, why is that girl who looks 12 years old hanging around here? I don't like that. I feel like he wrote a song about like, yeah,

being of a 16 year old or something to that, terrible. Anyway. Anyway. Wow. Okay. I had Davidinberg on

recently who's got like a great punk pedigree but also now a lawyer like i'm like really involved with like music licensing and different things in law and david steinberg told a bunch of great because he played for stiv baders on his solo album after the dead boys okay wow did you know stiv baders i was just? Did you cross paths with him? Did I not? No, I did not. I had some Clash experiences. Okay, tell me.

The Clash is the only band that mattered. I need to hear this. Okay, well, I'm not sure what the ground rules are. Honestly, no rules. This is not the CBC. You go crazy. So here would be my Clash conversation. Hi, so how about a nice interview with, let's say, CBC. Fuck off.

Oh, okay. Globe and Mail would like to say, fuck off. And this went on for about 20 minutes, and I thought, I'm not really sure how I manage this. So I think in the end they did nothing. They set up at the Danforth. We had a lot of fun. We had a lot of fun. We had a lot of fun.

A film called Heaven's Gate. Oh, Warm Baby? Or am I getting the wrong one? Is that Warm Baby? Chris Christopherson. And they had, for some reason, the premiere was in Toronto. You know, I think it was a three and a half hour movie. Okay.

Anyway, we received, I sat with Chris christopherson and a couple and his road manager and we're watching this movie which is slow and interesting and i said oh excuse me i just have to i'll be back in a minute got in my car uh drove to the danforth music hall i think put in maybe an hour with nick lowe got back in my car got back into the movie theater uh i still had no idea what was going on in the movie and i have the feeling i didn't miss that much but that's you know we were everywhere all the time and but this is still so you this is still you and your this is pre-sun right like i know we're gonna yes okay uh what about ian thomas did you uh you must have had a

bunch of sweet ian thomas what a nice guy all right so quick i'll quickly give a little context to why I'm asking about Ian other than the fact he's a great Canadian musician but I did the best like I think

it might be the greatest episode of Toronto Mic'd of all time next to Liz Braun's debut here Dave Thomas okay

because he said take as long as you want I took like you know almost two and a half hours and he told he talked about everything so open and honest and I'm like

this is Dave Thomas like I mean I've been loving this guy forever. So Dave Thomas was on Toronto Mike. And then thanks to my relationship with great FOTM, Steve Pagan. And dropping names is encouraged on this show, Liz. Don't lose that Canadian humility. Just drop names.

But Steve Pagan said, I'm friends of Ian Thomas because they know each other from Hamilton or whatever. So I had Ian Thomas booked booked Ian Thomas didn't show and I said Ian and I even reached out to Dave I said is everything okay where are you it turned out timing was awful and I had no idea but his mother had passed away their mother had passed away and that was the day they were I think the term is entering the ashes and so greatest excuse I've ever received for missing an episode of Toronto Mic'd and we're going to reschedule. But what can you tell me about your interactions with Ian Thomas? Well, weirdly, I met him sort of in my own life at a dinner party with other people. And he was just such a nice guy. And, you know, he's been married for a long time to the same very glamorous

woman. And he was just a sweetheart. I had always liked his music, but I never worked with him. I don't know who he recorded for. I don't remember. So that's how I met him. And I don't know, we're sort of Facebook friends. I don't know how else to describe it. Some say he's the funnier of the brothers.

They're all... I have to say there's something in the water where they grew up, because that is one funny group of human beings. Yes, he's very funny. They're all, I have to say, there's something in the water where they grew up because that is one funny group of human beings. Yes, he's very funny. They both are. They both are. What about, and I'm just throwing

names at you and then you can always tell me all the big names I'm missing. If you're trying to get to somebody I don't like, that's really easy, Mike. I am distinguished,

I think, by being the only Canadian who really can't stand Joni Mitchell. Really? If you would ever, yikes. Oh my God.

So I'm scheduling a special episode of Terry David Mulligan all about the early years of Joni when they spent a lot of time, I think in Alberta, but together. But tell me what you don't like about Joni Mitchell. I just think she's mean spirited. Really? Yeah. And you know that firsthand.

You've had experiences with her where she was mean to you? No, that's just from having been hanging around in the olden days and watching where people went, how they developed, and who remembered their roots. Who was nice to the people who needed help later?

Gordon Lightfoot was nice to the people who helped him. And Murray McLaughlin was, and Bruce Coburn was. But Joni Mitchell was not. Anyway. Interesting. Well. Well, you know, Liz, now you're getting the hang of this.

I'm seeing it. Now you're all warmed up and loosened up. Who else do we hate that everybody loves? Don't tell me any bad stories about Mr. Rogers or off the... No, no, no, no, no. No, I don't know. I'm just... I don't know why I have such an issue

with Joni Mitchell. But maybe it's because everything is always about Joni Mitchell. I don't know. But wonderful musician, no doubt. I guess so. It's like saying, yes, Picasso beat up women, but what a painter. Oh, yeah, no, because you can hear stories about, like, say, John Lennon for example, who is essentially

regarded as a raw god at this point. Dying at the age of 40 helps with that cause. And especially being assassinated, essentially. But the fact is, there's a lot of stories about him being a poor husband, a poor father.

Well, Bob Dylan too, but Saint Bob Dylan is... All you have to do is get old enough, I guess. And then everybody reveres you forever. So that's going to be the strategy here. You got to just keep living. I guess so. Keep breathing here.

Okay, well, I'll throw another name at you here while we're kicking around things pre-sun and then we'll chat a bit about the sun, of course. You've been there. What year did you start at the sun? 1985. 85! Before you start at the sun? 1985. 85! Before you were born, Mike.

Not true. Your math is terrible, Liz. I was warned your math would be bad. Yeah, my math is pretty bad. I remember every game of the 1985 Toronto Blue Jays season, which means I was not only born, but I'm watching, I'm listening to the radio. I'm a full functioning human being at that point. Well, that's when I started. It's really in the heyday of print, I have to say.

85. Okay, I want to find out how things have changed there. But one name I just want to throw at you quickly here is, he just passed away during the pandemic. Meatloaf. Yes. Someone's been telling tales out of school. I can't ever.

You know, I do, I am well connected, Liz. So when guests are coming on, I get feeders that send me this and that. But what can you share with me about Meatloaf? Meatloaf was really the only artist I ever worked with who liked me and used to call me late at night after he'd finished shows, like 4 a.m. He'd be phony to tell me how things went in Salt Lake City.

I'm like, really? Okay, good to know. But he's a very sweet man. Kind of a Republican. And I don't think we know how he died, but it might have been from the pandemic. He may have had COVID. I don't know. That was kind of quiet and mysterious.

There were hints that he was anti-vax. There were those hints. And I respectfully do not have a great deal of patience with that stance however very very very sweet man and uh i think fame kind of undid him initially he came back to toronto with no voice right a year after bat out of hell was a huge hit but you know he got it back together eventually but yeah he's one of the great comeback stories because of course there was the the the bat out of hell was so huge right with jim steinman and was it todd rungren and this is such a big out like a like an opera in this rock opera almost in this paradise by the dashboard light

and then many many many years later there's the big comeback right bat out of hell too which had again back on you know much music and I'm sure MTV as well. You've got Meatloaf as your big star again, like it was quite the comeback. And then of course, there was the Broadway show that captured all of that music as Jim Steinman had intended. He wanted it to become a theater production and it was. And obviously Meatloaf wasn't in it, but he was associated with it. And he, he came to Toronto to open that show a couple of years ago and did you catch up with him then?

no I sort of saw him from a distance I didn't do you remember calling me Meat? what do you call a guy named Meatloaf? ML because his real name was Marvin Lee yeah ML okay nice I remember he also shows up in ML. ML, okay. Because his real name was Marvin Lee. Okay, that works. Yeah, ML.

Okay, nice. I remember he also shows up in Rocky Horror Picture Show. That was quite a time for Milo. It's funny. I was going to say I was kind of on to him before he ever sang because of Rocky Horror Picture Show, which I thought was just a spectacular film. Did you ever attend a midnight showing of the Rocky Horror Picture Show?

No. You know, here's a funny admission. Let's hear it. I saw it in sort of first run before people knew the words, before they threw toast, before any of that and I just thought this movie is demented. I love it. Then somebody said well you can't go to it anymore because people

sing all the songs and they do all this stuff throughout and I thought yeah that was pretty cool. Yeah, that's the Dammit Janet. Yeah. That was one of the big cult movies where, yeah, you're right. There was like a script of sorts. It's almost like going to a soccer match. Like if I go to a TFC match, like these certain chants and songs

and practices happen similar times each match or whatever. You go see rocky horror picture show midnight screen yeah you mentioned the toast there's all these different uh participation moments it's funny i just went to i'm gonna just i don't know how i'm gonna connect this but i just want to say uh congrats to my friend stew stone so my friend stew stone who appears on every ready coincidence here he appears on a sub-series of toronto mike called toast we call it toast i think we should start having people throw toast at us okay interesting so and it's always the third thursday of the month that he comes over with cam gordon from twitter canada

and we it's amazing you got to get into the toast liz you got to get into the toast episodes but stew also directs movies with his brother-in-law, Adam Rodness. It's five, seven films, I think is what they call it. And they just had the premiere of their film that came out during the pandemic. So this premiere was delayed like two years. But it's called Faking a Murderer. And I was there at the Review Cinema the other night. I think that was, let me do the math, Wednesday night. It was a late showing, but a great time.

So I just want to say congrats to Stu. And I got to hang with his mother, Trudy, who's a huge Toronto Mike fan, I found out. So shout out to Trudy. And I wonder, will the Toronto Sun ever pay attention to all this fine work by my friend Stu Stone? Faking a murderer? Faking a murderer.

That sounds interesting. It's really cool, actually, and they've got a new one coming out soon called Bandits. There's something going on there, and it was entertaining. All right. Shout out to Stew Stone. We're going to get some Toronto Sun coverage of Bandits,

maybe, when that comes out. Maybe I can go and see Faking a Murderer. I hope so. Yeah, I think it's on Hollywoodllywood suites okay i think this is a hollywood suite thing where you can get it there for sure streaming has confused things but that's another conversation but here's a quick question on that front we're going to get to the sun now uh in a time when there was no streaming of course but like when you when you subscribe to all you have all these streaming services, these are business expenses, right?

You don't have to pay out of pocket for a streaming service because you need it for work, right? Well, I mean, I sort of need it for work. Sometimes I watch stuff that I'm writing about, but I don't watch a lot of television. So streaming confuses me, to be honest. What do you watch on streaming? Like is there a show that you'll watch that's a streaming show?

No. I really just never got into the habit of watching TV. I don't watch television news either. I hope that's not an offensive thing to say. Shout out to all my friends on TV news. How do you consume your news? Print, but online. And then I have to say Twitter kind of condenses the news in the morning

you can see what people are outraged about and then you know what's going on you can expand but i read that i read the guardian for daily news really um just for a more global viewpoint now yeah so okay so you're you're a print gal who consumes it through digital channels. And like many people, by the way, you're not alone on that front. Maybe we just address what the news that broke while you were on your way to the TMDS studios here out of the USA. What news broke? Well, that Roe v. Wade has been overturned by the Supreme Court. And it's just unbelievable I want to hear your take on this

we had a heads up on this one in that there was some notes that were leaked and we kind of this is not a complete blind side because they tipped their hat that this might be coming but please as a Canadian it's almost like at this point

it's difficult to consume a lot of the news out of the USA. This is me personally speaking, but let me hear from you, Liz. What's your feelings hearing that news? Well, I spoke to my daughter on the phone, and I said to her, well, the United States has just officially become a third world country. And when Mr. Trump was the president, I used to refer to him as President Ceausescu because it's become like Romania was a generation ago.

It's just terrifying to see what's going on there. So this, of course, has nothing to do with abortion. I hope people understand this is a much bigger thing. This is an attempt to make states' rights bigger than, you know, any kind of federal oversight. And of course, abortion is not a moral issue so much as it is an economic one. So really, this is a death sentence for women, poor women. Wow. It is shocking to, it is shocking when you kind of step back and take in what's happening, you know, south of the border it's

uh it is disturbing as well well anyone watching the january 6th hearings he's sort of going to shock mike i just don't even understand however however this is proof of the power of social media and media in general. Because of the way stories are spun and situated, you can literally change the future. You can change what's going to happen next. You can change who wins the election and so forth and so on. So it's all very scary. It's also frightening how many Americans are okay with this direction. That's when I always remind myself, oh, yeah, like, Americans and Canadians are really different.

Like, a lot of the things that we're outraged about here in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, there's a great number of Americans that are cheering it on. And that's precisely the direction they want their country to go. Well, you know, it's easy to say we're different now, but I don't know. I don't know how to pronounce Pierre Polivier's last name. How do you say his last name? Polivier, I think there's a thing at the end, yeah. That detestable little puke who is busy kind of putting out there

the very same right-wing ridiculous messages. He's very scary to me. There's a political element here that I find very comparable to the Americans, and that worries me. The right, I mean, on the far right. Now, the truck convoy, I think Pierre's a big supporter of that. And some of them, I mean, hidden in there is some things that you can say might be even reasonable but then they kind of decorated in other frightening things one i was just reading

this like this official stance that somehow uh justin trudeau's party cheated in the last federal election like this whole uh rhetoric that uh he's uh stole the election is so Trumpian. It's literally ripped from the Trump playbook. Yeah, from the playbook. It's crazy. But it's interesting that people cotton on to that as quickly as they do. And we have politicians who have been very outspoken

in their anti-vaccine, anti-mask. I don't know how that ever started. But anyway, I just kind of don't get it. And I'm worried that people don't take it seriously and so they just kind of turn a blind eye and think oh that could never happen here who knows so how do you reconcile it i'm naturally curious because we're going to get you to the chanel sun now uh unless you have a good harold ballard story for me i do not sorry i collect like some people collect baseball cards some people collect ticket stubs.

I collect Harold Ballard stories. I don't think I have any Harold Ballard stories. But you have a link to him, right? Absolutely. When I worked for CPI, I worked for Michael Cole and Bill Ballard. What a sweetheart Bill Ballard was. So Bill Ballard is a sweetheart. Oh, yeah.

Very nice guy. Okay. But minimal interaction with uh our pal hal yeah i i think he was um i'd say he was trouble i think we can be pretty safe i have ken daniels who's an fotm sent me footage because he worked for uh cbc at the time covering harold ballard and he sent me footage like harold ballard didn't want woman in the dressing room because uh and i'll quote harold ballard here because some of the players have cocks the length of your arm and he said woman uh can't hear that i can't see i mean you can't see that i guess you can't hear that maybe

you can hear it if it's the size of your arm but uh like like this guy was completely misogynist we should have arranged a cage match between him and Christy Blatchford. That would have been interesting. She was certainly in the dressing room. Yeah. I wonder what year she got in there. Do you know? She was a sports writer at the Globe and Mail, I think. She was the first woman sports writer,

but back then they weren't going to let her in the dressing room at Maple Leaf Gardens back then. Really? I know there was a big brouhaha about it, but I don't remember how it was resolved. But yeah, no, no Harold stories. I mean, Michael Cole has some pretty great Harold Ballard stories. Well, we're going to collect them.

Liz, okay, I've been flirting with getting you this sign. We're going to be bouncing around. There's going to be tangents, and you're going to be going this way, that way, but we're always going to come back. I just need to ask you before I leave the early 80s. Were you at the last Who concert in 82? Oh boy, was I ever. Was I ever because my best friend went into labor

when the fireworks went off. Wow. Yeah. And they've had so, so many final concerts since, but yes, I was absolutely there. So I'm going to play just a little audio here. Just a little. This is a

Well, he's still with us. Yeah, well, Roger and Peter are still with us. The rest, not so well. But shout out to Ridley Funeral Home, by the way. Listen, that's what we do on this program, Liz. We behave badly, Mike. I get it. I'm getting the picture. You know, we do on this program, Liz. We behave badly, Mike. I get it. I'm getting the picture.

You know, we've been reasoned. Okay. So, but Liz, I need you to, because you were there. This is another Toronto Mike expression we use. You were there, Liz. You were there. I was a kid and kind of oblivious to what was going on. But this 1982 farewell tour and then this concert in Toronto, Where was this concert? At Maple Leaf Gardens.

Maple Leaf Gardens. And this was a big fucking deal, right? It was huge. It was the front page of the Globe and Mail. Every paper in the country. And I should tell people this audio was recorded that night. Was it? That's very exciting. And it sounds great too. But I mean, I've been

reading up about it. Was this broadcast on television? This final concert? I don't I've been reading up about it. Was this broadcast on television? This final concert? I don't think so. I don't remember. Okay. I should know because I was working for Michael Cole and Bill Ballard at the time. So, basically, I was on the job.

Wow. And is it Q107 simulcasted or recorded and aired or something with Q? I do not remember. My ambition at most of those shows was to get out of there as soon as possible and go home because I'm kind of a boring human being. Well, you're a Motown gal. It's not that. I'm not. The crowds

were always worrying. You know, Van Halen show, you never knew when you might get a full cup of Coca-Cola upside the back of your head or whatever else was being tossed. I can imagine. And now I'm thinking that

they did a WKRP episode about there was that tragedy in Cincinnati, right? Was that the who? That was the who. You know, it's interesting that you mention that. Michael Cole is a very cool, calm, and collected guy. Most of the time, I've never seen him so upset as that day.

Pacing his office, listing the things that he would have done differently. And then years later, when he did an interview with the Toronto Sun, he admitted that his greatest fear as a promoter was that somebody would get hurt. And that was just appalling. I think 11 kids died. Yeah, something like that. Yeah, terrible. I know, I get shivers now thinking about it, because my

20-year-old is upstairs, I think. Like, it could be me, it could be him, and nothing scarier. There's so many terrible, oh my god, now I'm thinking of things like the station in New Jersey and stuff, like the most horrific happened. That was the fire that broke out when Great White was playing, and there was

and this, I think Cincinnati passed a law or something outlawing, like, the general admission. Because that was the thing. But general admission was all the, too many people in a place at once. And then not enough. As Michael said, if you're going to have general admission, you better have those doors open at 6 in the morning and every single one of them.

So that, yeah. But, yeah, that was bad. It's interesting that that was that was uh yeah look all these years later and it still has a tremendous impact even to think about no doubt and memorialize forever in that wkrp episode because that's how i learned about it really yeah wow i guess i should have watched more tv well you missed out there uh shout out to the the great late great dr johnny fever okay let's talk specifically here before we get you to the sun

any memories at all it's funny to say the final Who concert back in 1982 because like you said there's been many I guess final Who concerts just that one very you know most important memory

of my the fireworks went off at the end of the show or before the encore, I guess. And my friend said, oh, I guess I'm going to go home now. She didn't say a word, but she called the next morning at seven o'clock to tell me her son Jake had been born. So that was pretty cool. Oh, nice. Yeah.

Okay. And it was interesting because his birthday was marked, the day of his birth was marked by this band being on the front page of every single newspaper everywhere for their final show. And that Jake now would be 40 years old, or turning 40. Yeah, somewhere in there. What month was that concert? December.

December. Okay, turning 40 later this year. Yeah. If my math is better than Liz's here, okay. How do you end up working for the Toronto Sun, the little paper that grew? I used to write press releases when I was a publicist. And one day, Wilder Penfield III, I guess some of your listeners will remember, the great rock and roll writer at the Sun said, have you ever thought about being on our side of

the fence? And I said, absolutely. But how do you get that kind of job? And about two weeks later, I was interviewed to work for the newspaper. And they said, well, what do you have, you know, to offer besides being able to write? I said, well, I have Bruce Springsteen's home phone number. Does that count for anything? That's got to count for a lot. Well, I don't know. And then we did the morals test. You know, if someone confesses something to you as a reporter, what do you do with that information? I said, nothing. What are you talking about?

No, I would never. And no, they said, no, you have to corroborate that with a secondary party. And then you can print it. I would never print that about a person. So that didn't go very well. But, you know, they accepted me for other reasons. Well, they accepted you. and you've been there. That's a tremendous run you've had, Liz.

This is exceptional. Well, that's kind of you to say, Mike. It was the perfect job to have if that person wanted to have children. Because once your story was written, your workday was over. And boy, did I learn to write fast. There was a good work-life balance writing for the Toronto Sun. It was good. There was a good work-life balance writing for the Toronto Sun. It was good. It was good. Now you mentioned Christy Blatchford, but sadly gone too soon. It's funny. I, I re it's

funny. I produced the Humble and Fred show and sometimes Humble and Fred like to take days off. Okay. They, especially in the summer, they take a lot of days off in the summer. And when they do take a day off, I do, I curate a best of, and recently, I guess a couple of weeks off in the summer. And when they do take a day off, I curate a best of. And recently, I guess a couple of weeks ago, I was thinking what would be a good best of because there's been a bunch of guests on the show over the last almost 11 years. And I remember there was one day Christy Blatchford dropped by their studio

and hung out for like an hour. And I said, oh, that's my best of. So I'm listening to Christy Blatchford and I'm curating that. And what can you tell me about the late Christy Blatchford? Christy was quite different in her own life than she appeared to be in print. She and I did not see eye to eye politically, but I really liked her, and she was very funny.

And she was quite a shy, sweet person. And, you know, when she was at funny and she's quite she was quite a shy sweet person and you know when she was at the end of her life paul godfrey talked about her crying in the newsroom when she had hideous stories to cover the paul bernardo trial and everything weeping because the the things she had to hear and witness were so terrible um she was married for a while to a really lovely guy. I don't know what happened to that marriage, but I used to see them occasionally socially then. But anyway, kind of an interesting woman. I think quite different from the impression she gave.

So you mentioned disagreeing with her politically, and even from this brief time we've been talking, I get a sense of your values in that regard and your concerns that will help Prime Minister Pierre Polyevra. You're right, I don't know how to end that name. I don't either. I'm just clearing my throat before I talk myself out of a job here, Mike, on your podcast.

Well, listen, I don't want you to talk yourself out of a job, but it's been a hell of a run, Liz. It could be over after today. We'll see. Well, how do you reconcile the political slant of your newspaper, the Toronto Sun? And do you ever feel a pressure to adopt that slant in order to appease the overlords? No, I don't. They give us, you know, there's freedom in that regard, but I do get a lot of hate mail from our readers. That's for sure. And occasionally, if I, you know, you don't

really write your own headlines. Occasionally there'll be a headline on something I've written that really is a little bit more to the right of center than I would have hoped, but I don't know. How do you handle the barbs? Because periodically I'll peek at a comment section, the Toronto Sun, and then I quickly leave thinking, oh, no, I can't go there again. Like it's hell in there. Yeah, because most of those comments are written in crayon. You probably noticed that yourself.

I do. I am also the same crowd I feel has been attacking me lately. But one topic that you've been covering lately that I did want to go into detail with, and then we'll kind of here and there go back to your time at The Sun, because I'm dying to know how different it was in 1985 compared to 2022. I can only imagine working for a newspaper what's happened in that time. But could we talk about a case that you've been covering for The Toronto Sun recently, the allegations against John Derringer? Of course we can talk about it. Mike, you were on it

faster than anybody. I was because it was a long weekend and you guys were busy, right? You know, we had a funny experience. I hope it's okay to tell this story. I wrote something that had to be looked at by a lawyer. And the lawyer wrote back and said,

well, you know, sometimes I work for Chorus, so I may have to hand this piece of work. Recuse himself? He did. And we had to find somebody else to lawyer the copy. So that was kind of... Well, at least he did that. I feel like a lot of obvious times to recuse yourself

doesn't happen anymore. There were times like this with Rob Ford. I remember there were times I felt like, oh, you need to recuse yourself because you're doing this and that. It never happened. But it just happened with John Tory. I just there were times I felt like, oh, you need to recuse yourself because you're doing this and that. It never happened. But it just happened with John Tory. I just want to quickly,

and I have respect for John Tory. But John Tory might as well be John Rogers as far as I'm concerned. This man is so closely connected to Rogers, the company, and not Mr. Rogers, who I referenced earlier. And he, as I understand it from good sources

at the Toronto Star, am I allowed to say Toronto Star? You can say that. Okay. Shout out to Rosie DeManno, who I know is BFFs with Christy Blatchford. She was. Okay. So I understand John Tory is still earning,

I think it's like a nominal $100,000 a year to be consulting with the Rogers people, still as he's mayor of Toronto. And then when Mark Shapiro, for example, who works for the Blue Jays, sends a letter to John Tory to say, please stop closing parts of Lakeshore for active TO on weekends

because our 90 five fans are having difficulty driving their SUVs to the dome. Uh, and then I think to myself, isn't this a conflict of interest? Like doesn't John Tory receive money from Rogers and isn't Mark Shapiro asking for some city, uh,

stuff to change, to help out the blue Jays, which is a Rogers property. Isn't that a black and white conflict? Doesn't he try to recuse himself there? That's an interesting scenario, which I hadn't given much thought to. I think we should stick to discussing the cars

and the closed lakeshore. What would you like to say on that front? I would like to say the city of Toronto is, what, 200 years old? Stop bringing your car here. The infrastructure cannot handle it. I keep going because I'm 100%. I mean, that's what the GO train is for. You do not have to be a bicyclist.

You do not have to have a passion about any of this one way or the other. The simple fact is the city's very old. The infrastructure is very old. You cannot continue to bring cars into the city's very old the infrastructure is is very old you cannot continue to bring cars into the city you know places there are european cities where cars are a no-go right and i i that's got to be coming down the pike for toronto it's chaos at all times i'm you're preaching to the choir here uh i person again you don't have to do this, but if I go to something at the Dome, and it's quite often I'll do that. I bike the waterfront trail to the Dome, and I happen to live in a place that's on the waterfront trail, so that's very convenient for me.

But if I didn't bike to the Dome, I would be going to this, there's a go station called Mimico, and I would go there, and then I would take that, and it would literally, I would be. You're right there. You're right there. That's the whole point of having the dome in the now called Scotia Bank arena. They're right there at Union Station because no matter where you're coming from, there's public transit to Union Station. Well,

I think people were a little nervous of public transit during the pandemic and that's understandable. But I just, it's just a weird, what's the word? It's like a stumbling block. People don't seem to grasp. It's not going to get better. Right. It's just going to get worse.

So anyway, that's my way of skirting this John Tory and Rogers issue. But I didn't say anything controversial. I'm not, John Tory's on episode 1000 of Toronto Mike. He recorded a lovely message. I may not vote for John Tory but I 100% respect he is the mayor after Rob Ford so I feel like

he works hard, John Tory. I see evidence of him. He's at the grilled cheese challenge. He shows up for this. He seems to be working all the time. He works very hard for the city. I think I have nothing but respect for John Tory. But he clearly has

a very obviously published bias in favor of Rogers, which is a massive conglomerate. You might have heard of Rogers. And this to me is a black and white. You don't get to stop Lakeshore from closing to vehicular traffic

and on upon request from mark shapiro from the toronto blue jays which is obviously a property of rogers is that is that is it that open and shut is it that straightforward a request you really think yeah it was published you got it yeah you can find the tweet somewhere but this letter was published by all the typical sports people you'd follow on Twitter, for example. But yeah, and it was very black and white. Yeah, it was that black and white. Anyway, we don't have to dwell on this too long,

except that they did get rid of the active TO on Lakeshore. And sure, a bunch of 905ers, or maybe people even coming from west of there are delighted because they feel they might be able to get to the Dome on a Saturday

faster now. In a car? In a car. This is all about car, right? You could walk from Mississauga faster on a baseball day.

Oh, you're preaching to the choir, Liz. Okay. Okay. So, oh yeah, back to the John Derringer thing. Actually, we'll tease it. I'm going to come back to John Derringer. This is what I'm going to ask you a few questions.

It's because you've been at the Sun so long. So now you kind of sound like somebody who might not enjoy what I think would be the greatest perk of being an entertainment writer for the Sun for so many decades that you'd be, I guess you'd be i guess you'd be seeing every movie going to every party like in the heyday of the toronto sun it gets strange how this job is diminished now and we'll talk about that but you probably didn't enjoy all these perks as much as someone else might i certainly enjoyed seeing films uh and being able to see them with quiet people not eating popcorn essentially in an

empty theater I know that's a terrible admission but it was you could always get an aisle seat if you were that I loved I was never much for the parties that felt too much like work from my days as a publicist right but there were lots of know, one was invited to a lot of things, theater openings and one thing and another. So, yeah, it was fun. The Sun threw the best parties of all. What are those like? Just massive parties for one thing or another.

So this might tie in nicely to my question about then versus now. What is it like working for a newspaper, particularly the Toronto Sun, now compared to the 80s and 90s? Well, it's diminished because print is just no longer what it was. I don't know if there's a better way of explaining it,

but in the 1980s, to work for a newspaper, you had power. You know, people listened. I don't even know how to. Well, you had the attention of the masses, right? Like, okay. Well, there was an equality. For example, when we each, even as entertainment writers, what we wrote was important enough to the studios that if you went to Hollywood to write about a film, they flew you first class and treated you like gold. And what you wrote was important and it affected the bottom line. But everything changed. I mean, there was a time when nobody cared about the opening box office of a movie.

Can you imagine? People, films would stay in theaters six months. I remember. Yeah. So things just really started to change. And there was a perception that the entertainment writers really worked for the studio. And that was not correct.

That was not correct. So when you get flow in first class and they put you in the finest hotel and there's great food and drink and parties tied to it, you don't feel any obligation to maybe be a little more kind to that film. No, and it's interesting because the other papers would not accept junkets. We always did. And I so many times would come home and write, boy, that was kind of a lousy movie.

I didn't feel any obligation. And they still invited you to the next one. They did. They did. But don't forget, besides a movie review, Adjank had also provided tremendous opportunities to interview people. So you could certainly do an interview with, name somebody, Richard Gere. Yes. I'm trying to think of somebody a little less stupid. Let's just see.

Oh, is it because he's a, what do I know about him? All I know about him actually is that he's a Buddhist. That's all I know about Richard Gere. But he had a run where he was a massive star. He was a massive. Okay, I'm going to tell you a Buddhist story. Okay, I love Buddhist stories. Before anyone knew he was a Buddhist,

we were doing an interview for some terrible film with Kim Basinger set in Chicago. There were cows. I can't remember what it's called. Anyway, he was doing this interview that was myself and a couple of other reporters. set in Chicago. There were cows. I can't remember what it's called. Anyway, he was doing this interview that was myself and a couple of other reporters and he said something, something, something. That would be Nirvana. And I said to him, oh, you're a Buddhist

because everybody else in the world says Nirvana. And he got up and stormed out. Wow. And I thought, okay, what the hell just happened? You were outing him. I mean, I have no idea why he didn't want the world to know he was... Anyway, that's my Richard Gere

story. Love it. Okay. But, yeah, how did we get a Richard Gere? You were randomly picking a star that you got access to. So when you have, let's say Tom Cruise, okay? Sure. Like, if you're doing a junket for a big tom cruise film back in the day uh i'm guessing this is how it looks to me when i watch on tv okay tom's in a room and one by one i don't know what the time limit would be on this let's pretend it's like 10 minutes but one by one reporters from across

north america or maybe around the world kind of go in and they get their turn. And then, so is that, am I right? That's pretty close. That's when in the days when people got individual interviews. Right. And they were lengthy, 15 minutes, sometimes 30 minutes if the conversation was going well. And then the move went to what are called round tables.

So we'd be seated just as you and I are seated and there'd be three or four reporters. And then the actor would sit and answer questions i feel like that other one like i i guess the other one the other model i don't know that model doesn't sound like as as cool as the model where you know tom cruise in the room and now liz braun comes on in and you guys get let's say 15 minutes and let's say there's some person in there that's like watching the clock and then giving you like a wind-up sign. It hasn't been 15 minutes in a very long time. Okay.

And TV reporters would get like three minutes. So if you got your three minutes because you're going to get something for the paper or whatever, I can only imagine that, and Tom Cruise might be better at this than others, but I can only imagine that you're cruise might be better at this than others but i can only imagine that you you're sitting there getting the same mainly the same kind of questions over and over again that as it progressed that your answers would get maybe uh snippier and less uh less passionate i don't know i can imagine yeah there were some interesting um i should really quote jim sloatek on this because he wrote he wrote a wonderful column years ago for The Sun

in which he talked about the fact that an interview for an actor is really nothing more than a tiny acting job. And he said, and not only is it a tiny acting job, you're in front of people so sycophantic most of the time that I think the example he gave was somebody would come in, recognize a reporter and say, oh, how's your daughter? And, you know, as Jim said, never again would that person be able to write a bad word about that.

Right. And he said, so it's fascinating when you encounter actors. He was writing about Julia Roberts, who was very tough on the press. It's fascinating to encounter people who really don't seem to get it and are rude or or short or short or you know make their make the fact that they despise the press obvious i think is what he was writing about so julia was like that uh did you did you experience that with julia roberts i did i did jennifer aniston too just yeah i mean i so gently on julia roberts jennifer aniston too. Really? Yeah. I mean, I... So, wait, hold on. Julia Roberts, Jennifer Aniston, Joni Mitchell. No, no, hang on here. What other sacred cows are you going to slaughter?

Don't you worry. No, none. I was just going to say... Yes. I've lost my train of thought. Oh, no, you were talking about Julia Roberts. Oh, just, you know, we made our living as parasites. We made our living

writing about somebody else's efforts. So you can see why many actors and actresses weren't keen. But it's a symbiotic relationship. Like they need you as much as you need them. And you both, it's like a, yeah. It was a symbiotic relationship. But then things really changed. And the way reporting was handled changed.

You know, theashians were suddenly it was all about famous and hits and clicks and yeah and also yeah you could at some point with the internet like you know you can talk about how the internet has diminished the uh role and value of a newspaper but the internet also what it did was i think it allowed people to control their own press like essentially you don't need this third party that you can't control because you have your Instagram and your television. Yeah, that's a great example.

They can control their own press, especially social media. Like they don't need you. They don't need us. And people quickly discovered that, you know, there's no such thing as bad publicity. Right. But then that kind of went over the top too.

And you do an interview with somebody and read another reporter who was in the same room, read their story, and it would just be like, wow, that is not the interview that I remember. It was just interesting. Interesting. Were you ever, now you have a lot of integrity, you wouldn't accept it,

but were you ever uh now you have a lot of integrity you wouldn't accept it but were you ever offered any uh money in exchange for a positive review or something no not ever and i love getting notes from people saying well everybody knows you get paid to write these by the studio and i used to think really i wish i wish that would be a more lucrative angle for you maybe if okay you mentioned Jim Slotek. So I want to just say hi to FOTM Jim Slotek. But not only has he been over here for his deep dive, but he shows up at TMLX events. Does he?

Yeah. Yeah, I believe so. But Jim, big influencer. What can you tell us about? I'm going to ask you about a few names that I'm friendly with from the Toronto Sun in your time. But what can you share with about, I'm going to ask you about a few names that I'm friendly with from the Toronto Sun in your time, but what can you share with us about Jim Slotek? Just that he, you know, again, in the heyday of the paper

when we were all working together in the entertainment department, it was just so much fun. You just couldn't wait to get to work. And, you know, it's interesting, Mike, I'm sure you feel you have a sort of a position in the city, something to say about Toronto, and that's the feeling that we had, I think. But news has changed, so local news is not as emphasized in print

because you need stories that everybody across Canada can read. Staffing has changed, there are fewer of us, and advertising changed. Well, the staffing changed because advertising changed. Exactly. And the funny thing is, as soon as the movie studios stopped buying advertisements, you know, the entertainment department was then sort of diminished. And you think to yourself, so we actually were working for the studios all that time and we didn't even know it who is left right now who's in the entertainment uh division of uh

pose media well we have an editor mark daniel and then jane and i jane stevenson and jane by the way also an fotm so she's so cool um jane doesn't really write music anymore i don't really write movies anymore we're mostly doing news. And then every now and then we will do something of an entertainment nature. I mean, certainly things like the Johnny Depp, what's her face? Amber Heard. Amber Heard trial got a lot of ink. But again, that's, you know, entertainment and news are all mixed up together now.

And that's going to get a lot of, you called it ink, which I think is almost, but really it's not the ink that caused, it's the clicks, right? That's a story that gets clicks. Oh man, I could tell you, like Toronto Star hockey writer who came over and told me, we can't just write about,

we have to write about one of the four big leafs now. These are the leafs who get clicks. You got to write about Auston Matthews and you got to write about one of the four big leafs now. These are the leafs who get clicks. You've got to write about Auston Matthews, and you've got to write about Mitch Marner, and you've got to write about John Tavares, or you've got to write about maybe Morgan Rielly, or maybe Nylander was in there, I can't remember. But essentially, it's all about the clicks.

That's what's driving the coverage is clicks. I guess, because that's the new digital reality. So you're going to get a lot of Amber Heard, Johnny Depp stuff, whether you like it or not, because that's what the people want. Yes, I mean, I think most people could have written that verdict before it happened, but just one girl's opinion. Anyway, yes, Austen Matthews. So that's why there was all that.

Yeah, okay. Austen Matthews gets clicks. He's a prolific goal scorer who plays in the center of the universe for the, you know, Harold Ballard's old team. And he needs a haircut. I actually was on Hebsey on Sports this morning. Shout out to Hebsey. He's also a great FO team.

So I'm on Hebsey on Sports. And I just brought up the fact that the haircut thing. He needs to shave his head. I think, I think he needs to see what it looks like, like Mark Messier style, like bring it down because it's, yeah, it's crawling up and I'm,

I'm not judging him for that. I think, but, but let's, let's see what it looks like without, I don't know what I'd look like with a head shave, but just go see what it looks like. Okay.

Sorry. No, uh, Bill Brio. Uh, what can you tell me about Fm bill brio bill awesome guy awesome guy i mean imagine working with bill brio uh i'm trying to think of the names of all the other people who've been in entertainment jonathan gross you want to tell me i love jonathan gross

jonathan comes up a lot on this show he was at the sun long before i was but i encountered him because he wrote music and i was the publicist. So I was constantly saying, you should come to the club and hear this band. They're terrible, but we'll have fun. Jonathan Gross is hilarious. He's a very funny guy. He comes up a lot as like the lippy rock critic that people reference. He's always been quick quick and funny and bill brio uh who is now a freelancer like many former newspaper people but uh he did go not at the same time but

he did go to my high school interesting michael power and another person who went to my high school cynthia dale and i'm gonna ask you did you do you have any memories of reviewing Heavenly Bodies? Do you know Heavenly Bodies? Are you going to embarrass me now? It's okay if you don't, because most people don't remember, but I'm only asking because in Heavenly Bodies, Cynthia Dale plays,

it was like a flash dance wannabe, if you will, and it wasn't highly regarded, unfortunately, despite it being a feminist classic in retrospect. But the son of Cynthia Dale was played by the aforementioned Stu Stone, my friend Stu Stone. He played the son. And I reunited them on Toronto Mike

just two Tuesdays ago. That's so cool. And it was an amazing moment. But are you ready for this tonight? This is Friday night. I'm going to be at Cynthia Dale's one-woman show at the, what's it called? Winter Garden Elgin Theatre.

Oh, how wonderful. I hope it's just fantastic. I'm sure I reviewed Heavenly Bodies, so. No memories of it. It didn't leave an imprint. No, you didn't miss much. Don't worry about that. I'm going to ask you about a guy who I've never met,

but he does email me occasionally. He seems to enjoy the Mark Weisblot episodes of Toronto Mic'd. So he writes for 1236, which is an email newsletter. Mark Weisblot episodes of Toronto Mic'd. So he writes for 1236, which is an email newsletter. Mark Weisblot, I mean. And he comes on once a month and we do like literally three hour deep dive and everything that happened. And then I often

will get a note from Gary Dunford. Oh, do you really? You lucky duck. I know, but I'm trying to get Gary to come on the show. But he said, I think during COVID, he said he had to get a new microphone. And then I haven't been able to make contact since. But what can you tell me about the late, sorry, the late, he's still with us, the reclusive, Gary Dunford. Just another absolutely hilarious person.

It was interesting to work with people who were that funny all the time. work with people who were that funny all the time. So he was not in the entertainment department, but we all sort of wrote the same kind of nonsense. And then when he was, he didn't want to write six columns a week anymore. So they used to let me write page six on Saturdays way back at the beginning. And we had a lot of fun. We just laughed a lot.

But it sounds like a blast. It was a blast. But now it's you and Jane taking on the world, hanging in there. Just hanging in there. How long will you run here? Like, what is the plan? You want to work forever? Or you want it to be one of those people who, at some point, Ridley Funeral Home comes and

takes your corpse out of the office? Like, what's going on here? Well, I've already made a booking with Ridley now that we're on this subject. I don't know. I guess I should really give that some thought. But, you know, my children are young adults. But somehow I just feel the need to. Do you enjoy it?

Oh, yeah. I like the writing part. Okay. Well, that's the most of it, right? And I learn a lot. I have to say I've learned a lot writing the news. that's the most of it right yes and i learned a lot i have to say i've learned a lot writing the news and you're good at it again we're going to talk about the derringer stuff you don't know about that now come on they've kept me you have to fake it till you make

it okay okay that's it uh i'm going to take a moment to give you some gifts for coming all this way and then uh we still have more to talk about so don't try to escape yet but I do want to give you even though it's hot as heck out there and I'm sorry that this is the wrong season for it but you hold on to this until the winter. There's a toque. That's yours. Look at that. And. Unbeatable.

And an ashtray and that, the ashtray not that, you might have a friend, I don't, you may not smoke but you might have a friend i don't you may not smoke but you might have a friend who smokes but this is a courtesy of canna cabana who will not be undersold on cannabis or cannabis accessories maybe one of your children uh enjoys uh canna cabana products you know i don't think they do i maybe they might not tell mom no i i tried to get a glass of wine in their hand by the time they were 11 so i could just nip

that in the bud but yeah um interesting much love to canna cabana again go to canna cabana.com and there's more here look you made you made the trek we're going to give you some more things sticker you.com make amazing stickers and decals and and they're in liberty village but anywhere you have an internet connection you can go to stickeru.com, and those are Toronto Mike stickers, and now you've got one. So, Mike, where should I put this so that people know I've been here?

Oh, my goodness. Because this is pretty important. It's got to go on the bumper of the... Can it go in my car? The beamer you're driving. It can go anywhere you like. I don't want to make any presumptions here. Alan Cross put it on his garbage can,

and I was happy with that. Some people put it on their car. I had a guest over. This episode has actually been held, but I saw the Toronto Mike sticker on his bumper, and I was like so pleased to see that. But you put that wherever you want, Liz. Just let me know where it ends up.

But that's a Toronto Mike sticker for you. Well, I think it's going to attract too much attention, but we'll see. Right. Thank you. That's okay. It's good to be noticed. Okay. And I'm not even done yet. Oh my gosh.

I know you joked about this with me on LinkedIn, but do you enjoy Italian food? I do. All right. You're not leaving here without a frozen lasagna. I'm not kidding. A delicious frozen lasagna from Palma Pasta. That sounds wonderful. Do you

like meat or veggie? What's your preference? Oh, I think meat. This is very exciting. You're getting a meat lasagna. I'm excited to give That sounds wonderful. Do you like meat or veggie? What's your preference? Oh, I think meat. This is very exciting. You're getting a meat lasagna. I'm excited to give it to you. Oh my gosh. Okay.

And yeah, it's in my freezer right now. And honestly, Palma Pasta, they're the best. They're in Mississauga and Oakville. And they will be feeding everybody who comes out to TMLXX. That's the 10th Toronto Mike listener experience, which is happening September 1st from 6 to 9 p.m. at Great Lakes Brewery here in southern Etobicoke. You mentioned the Costco a minute ago.

Before we press record, you mentioned the Costco. I did. Are you going to the Costco after this? Well, I might. I mean, that was my Costco when I lived in High Park. That is the West End Costco. That is the West End Costco. That is the West End Costco. And down the street from that Costco on Queen Elizabeth Boulevard is Great Lakes Fair.

I know. You know. Because you come around the corner and you see all those cars outside Great Lakes. Oh, the Great Lakes Fair. Oh, my God. Is Costco so full that people have spilled over to the Great Lakes? But then you realize, no, it's the brewery. It's the brewery.

Because it's fresh. It's delicious. And they brew it there on the premises and i'm giving you some fresh craft beer to take home with you thank you sir it's been a big morning it's not even i wish i'm not even done yet oh my goodness but that's amazing the craft beer is going home with you uh i do want to last but not least doer you thought i was going to say the world's most comfortable scotch. Is that right? I did. Well, they make the world's most comfortable pants and shorts. And even their t-shirts are comfy as heck.

Unbelievable. They're actually Western Canadian based, but they have a store that opened up on Queen Street West. So if you go to Dewar.ca, D-U-E-R.ca, you can find out where they are on Queen Street, but also you can buy online. So if you go to doer.ca, D-U-E-R.ca, you can find out where they are on Queen Street, but also you can buy online. And whether you buy in person or online,

the best thing you can do for Toronto Mic'd and to help the show is save the 15% with the promo code. Again, I've been talking about the promo code TMDS, but now we also have the promo code Toronto Mic'd because I always felt it should have been Toronto Mic'd anyways. TMDS is the parent company. You don't go on Meta, you go on Facebook. So use the promo code Toronto Mike, all one word, and you'll save 15% and it lets them know

that you're listening to this fine broadcast with Liz Braun. So that's your orders, Liz. Maybe your kids need some fine threads. They're rugged, they're comfortable, and they look amazing. I will be checking that out. Check it out. I will be checking that out. Check it out.

Okay, and then don't forget to find maybe a stream of Heavenly Bodies on YouTube, and you can check that out too and remind yourself. Okay. Okay, Now Magazine. Okay, I want to ask you about what's happening with Now. So I find this to be a very sad story because I have a lot of friends who were writers at Now Magazine. And is it, I mean, it's hanging on by a thread, I guess,

but good people like Norm Wilner, and I know you know Norm, are no longer at the paper because they decided to stop paying people, which will get rid of a lot of your people, by the way. If the sun ever stops paying you all, you might stop working for them. That's my guess there. But any thoughts on the Now Magazine crisis? No, I know people are talking about it,

but they're in the same position, sadly, that so many other print publications are in. There's just no more advertising. Norm, of course, has landed on his feet. He's working for the film festival. Right. Exercising his good taste in film for basically the same audience. So that's sort of interesting.

And he's a good guy. And you have a connection to Norm. Well, you have a lot of connections, I guess, because you're covering movies in the same market and stuff. But you're both members of the Toronto Film Critics Association. That's right. Yeah. And Norm was a founding member, I think.

He has certainly been there as long as I can remember. Okay, so here's a. Yeah. And Norm was a founding member, I think. Ah, he has certainly been there as long as I can remember. Okay, so here's a fun game. I'm going to name all the FOTMs who are also members of the Toronto Film Critics Association. Okay. The TFC. It's not that long a list, actually. It's you, Liz. You're one.

Okay. Norm Wilner, who we just mentioned, about Jim Slotek. Yes. Is a member. He is a member. So is Bruce Kirkland. Who I haven't, no, but I am. So is Brian Johnson, who was with Maclean's Magazine.

Okay. Johanna Schneller. But these are all people who have to come on the program. You tell them. You tell all the members they should all come on Toronto Mike. They will. But here's more who have been on Toronto Mike. After Jim Slotek, I will shout out Kim Hughes.

Oh, yes. Yes. She, Kim, I can't remember when Kim joined. I think fairly recently. I'm not positive. I think she's doing that original Sin with Jim Slotek. Yes, she's done that from the beginning, I think. Right.

And that's their great project there. A lot of great film people are involved in that original Sin consortium. Liam Lacey. Yeah. Yeah, a lot of, they've got some great writers there. Gordon, Karen Gordon, is that? Yeah. Karen Gordon and I used to work together on a TV show.

What show? The original On the Arts, CBC's On the Arts. Oh, News World panel show, right, in the 90s. Yes, yeah. Okay. And it's interesting because it came up on the chorus front when Jennifer Valentine said, I don't know anybody else who's ever been

fired when they were pregnant. And I said, oh yeah, I was. And you were publicly pregnant? I was. That's the thing. Yeah, I think I might have been publicly pregnant because it was twins. You can't really keep that down. Oh, I mean, I just wondered, had you disclosed it yet? Like, had you

actually disclosed you were pregnant? I don't remember. I don't remember. We'll review review the tapes i've got this tape of you liz saying i just had too many big macs that's what you said no i think they oh one more name though and i want to ask you about him too uh peter howell yes he's another fotm who's a member of the toronto film critics association who's a member of the Toronto Film Critics Association. Yeah, it's a great association, and it really represents sort of, again, I hate to use the word heyday,

but the heyday of print criticism, and others, and radio, and a tiny bit of TV. I always, yeah, I mean, I just tweeted a picture of Siskel and Ebert yesterday that it was appointment viewing. I used to watch their show. We all did. I loved it. I loved it.

And it's like, I don't know, like, where all that's at now. It's like, I guess you have to go to places like the original sin and things like that. Well, it's hard because everybody's a critic since there's social media, but you do learn to trust certain people whose opinion, you know, dovetails with your own. Absolutely. Okay, we teased the Derringer story.

So please tell me, you kind of gave me some props. Because, okay, I've been writing about our media landscape just at torontomic.com since 2002, I think is when I started. Even though the website I started in 1999. But I started kind of blogging, if you will, in 2002. So, and I've naturally, it just so happens, I'll just set the stage here and then we get into it with you, but it just so happens a month before Jennifer Valentine posted that Facebook video about John Derringer, a month before Jackie Delaney came on my show. And Jackie Delaney, I asked her what it was like working with, at Q107, and then Delaney, I asked her what it was like working with at Q107. And then

she, and then I asked her what it was like working with John Derringer. And she said, John Derringer was the reason she left the industry. Like she left radio was because of John Derringer. So of course I needed her to elaborate. I said, I was surprised to hear that because he's a legend in Toronto radio. And then she said the way he treats his female co-hosts is also legendary. That is the exact quote from Jackie Delaney one month earlier. So I had that kind of banging around my head. And then I saw the Jennifer Valentine video. And then right away, Maureen Holloway, who was on this program last week,

Maureen Holloway tweeted support. And there were some other tweets of interest from people like Andrea Ruse and even Supriya Dwivedi who said everybody in the chorus building knew what was going on. And I said, somebody, it was all these places and social media and somebody needed to aggregate it all. So, you know, if you were interested in the story, you can go one stop shopping and see, oh, there's Jennifer's video and there's Jackie Delaney on Toronto Mic'd and there's Maureen Holloway on, and kind of just to just aggregate it all. So I wrote that on the weekend. And yeah, until the mainstream media picked it up on the Tuesday, that seemed to be it. And then it started to receive some play in the mainstream media. And that's you, Liz. So tell me how you got involved in the John Derringer allegation at Chorus story. You know, we would have been right behind you, Mike,

if we hadn't had that funny situation with the lawyer. That sort of cost us a little bit of time. Right. But, you know, to be honest, I didn't really think that the article needed lawyering. When you see Pattern and when you hear from, these are formidable women. There is not a shrinking violet in this crowd. When you see pattern and when you hear from, these are formidable women.

There is not a shrinking violet in this crowd. Extremely employed, extremely articulate, very, very bright women. And I had seen Jennifer Valentine's video, but I don't know anything about John Derringer. You should have collaborated with me because I've been following his career. I really didn't know about whom she was speaking. I just thought this is a very good summary of what it's like to be a woman in media.

You know, all these weird things. And then I saw some of the comments, and I know some of these women. I mean, Maureen Holloway, for her to say anything. Jackie Delaney, I don't know her, but I certainly know who she is and have spoken to her. And I thought, oh, everybody seems to know this is John Derringer. That's so interesting. And then I guess I just looked at the comments and and we went from there. So who did you speak with? Who did you speak with uh you who did you speak with personally well i emailed and you know contacted all of these women i spoke to jackie delaney i spoke to jennifer valentine um i spoke

to supriya supriya dwivedi dwivedi who is you know has a legal background yes yeah i know, has a legal background. Yes. Yeah, I know. She's a lawyer, right? Yeah. Who else did I? I did speak to several people. I also spoke kind of off the record, just as a friend of Jane Houghton's, because, of course, she was a media superstar, TV and radio. So you're friendly with Jane? I've known Jane a long time, yeah.

She used to be- Get that woman on Toronto Mike. Okay. I'll speak to her harsh, but, you know, she's like a judge now. So she has to be. Well, she can be careful. She knows what she says. But she did say that she was willing,

she was willing to discuss the fact that she feels it has actually, things have gotten worse for women in media as opposed to better. Okay, elaborate on that because you would think that it would be impossible because we're coming from an age, I watch Mad Men, okay?

I mean, that was a media, but it was parallel. But how is it getting worse? Well, we didn't get into it very much. If I were guessing, I would say that as soon as whatever shock, jock, whatever that sort of heavy-duty strain of macho radio really had a fire lit under it, I would think that at that point it would be, you know, you wouldn't want to be a woman in radio. Right.

And certainly when egos like Derringer's or behavior like his is, you know, I've had a lot of people call me anonymously from Chorus Entertainment and email me and they really want to tell me stories. Me too. Oh my God. Liz, we should privately compare notes. I can't tell you since I wrote that piece on trying to make that come.

I can't tell you how many calls I'm getting from inside. Yep. Same. It's frightening actually. So that obviously there's a toxic work environment there. I don't know what's going to change if anything, but as one person who called said, nevermind covering up. He said, everybody knew the janitor knew,

but he said this was encouraged this behavior wow wasn't just like oh we won't by management encouraged that's what i was told i i don't even know well can we say those things you you say what you can say and i i will just say again these are allegations of course and that's why I was very careful. You know, I didn't have the, these are allegations and we're just simply quoting, you know, things said publicly by people like, you know, and there's another woman

I just want to, and she hasn't, she gave humble Howard Glassman permission to tell her story. So I would never tell a story that was told to me in private or whatever, but calling Rush home

as another woman, I'd say, and we all love her and respect her, but she's in a tough spot because she's currently on the air on a Cora station in Ottawa. So then, you know, there, so she's, she's being careful,

but she gave Howard permission to share, uh, some of her stories, but she had, uh, extensive therapy to deal with PTSD from working with this man. Wow. Well,

yeah. I mean, what happened when I was writing this story, and perhaps you had the same experience, is that the focus quickly was off John Derringer and on chorus. Right. And several people, interestingly, all of these women who were really, really treated badly, still have some area of compassion and have said they know for a fact that derringer will have no idea what hit him because he was protected encouraged uh you know there was enabled

enabled he was enabled so yes it will come it must have been a terrible body blow to him so what did we learn because you and i probably got the same statements from chorus because i asked chorus for a statement and i got a statement that i think we all got the same statement but a formal statement so what what did chorus do and do you have any idea where that's at i don't i know that they um have it's kind of sort of comical they're doing this so-called arm's length investigation third party investigation they hired a lawyer and pay that lawyer they hire and pay the lawyer of course and lawyer. And so Jackie Delaney's not taking part in that. Neither is Jennifer Valentine. Wow.

And Jackie Delaney said they're trying to silence us. Oh, even Maureen Holloway told me, she told me she's not participating because she says it's all in the file. She said there's files. Yeah, yeah. So that's three big names that aren't participating in this review. Well, for one thing, these women were told that it all had to be confidential.

And I had a statement from Chorus that said, we do not ask people to sign any kind of, you know, non-disclosure, separate non-disclosure. Well, no, they don't. But their corporate policy is under, when some kind of investigation like this happens, it's got to be treated confidentially. And as Jackie Delaney said, I don't think they know who we're dealing.

You know, she works for the government. She works for a senator. I don't think they know who they're dealing with. Those privacy things are to protect the victims. And as I heard, they're tired of being shut up about this. Like they want to have a voice and be able to speak up against this, and participating in that would somehow prevent that. And they're just tired of being muzzled, these women.

That's the impression that I got from what they said. Anyway, their concern is that it's just a big PR display and nothing will change. And also, I think they feel that Chorus just wants this done so they can get rid of Derringer without having to pay whatever, if they have cause to let go of him. Right, because there's probably a clause in the contract that they're trying to evoke, I would guess, to get out of some kind of severance.

Yeah. And I mean, it's no secret, because this is no secret, that John Derringer was paid extremely well to be the morning show host on Q107. I mean, I've been told it's seven figures is what I was told. I haven't seen any T4 slips,

but regardless, this is big, big cash. As someone who failed math, what does that mean? That's a million bucks a year, Liz. I'll be out here.

1,2,3,4,5,6,7. Okay. I get it. The six. Yeah. Seven figures a year is I doubt the son is paying seven figures a year, but anyway, regardless he was paid quite well.

So I don't know where that story is at at all. It sounds like you don't have much more insight into where that's at than I do. He seems to have had the good sense to speak to nobody. Right. He hasn't said a word. This whole time. But again, I think it was Jackie Delaney who pointed out that he's at home probably still being paid while the show is suspended.

So I think it's going to be, I think it's I think, Mike speaking for Mike, but I think it's obvious that we will not hear John Derringer's voice on Q107 ever again. I think that's a distinct possibility. But here's my question for you. And I had this conversation with Maureen Holloway again last Friday,

a week ago today, Maureen Holloway. We talked about this on Toronto Mic. And I wonder what the other two co-hosts, what happens with them? Because at one moment, I think they were complicit and enablers and didn't speak up and are almost as bad. And then in the next moment, I will think that what were they supposed to do if they spoke up against John Derringer? They would be fired and they're almost victims as well.

So what do you do with the two gentlemen that were right by John Derringer's side through this? I don't know. I don't know. I mean, I feel the the same way you feel it's just a sort of a huge debacle i don't know how it's going to be solved but you know think back a media job is a wonderful thing to have people wouldn't risk that i guess or they'd be frightened for other reasons who knows i mean maybe if you annoy enough people at chorus entertainment you don't get hired there how many radio stations do they oversee not as many as the other big companies actually but uh let's say it's something like 30 or something i'm not sure but and who said apria sapria said they're all the same the big media companies that the the atmosphere inside is really

not that great so we'll see i don't don't know. Yeah, because, you know, well, the other two owners of radio stations, the big owners, are also the cable companies, one of whom we've already spoke to today. So it's like, you know, radio is not their core business even. It's like, do they want to sell internet services

and television packages? It's, wow, it's all, it's a whole different direction here. But I do read your coverage of the Derringer story. I am, I do find it interesting how quiet it is on that front right now. Did you not get to a point with people on the inside that you actually didn't want to know anymore? Because I got to that point.

I got to fully disclose to you that I have been working closely with Humble and Fred since 2006. Yes, I know. Humble and Fred were 2006. Yes, I know. Humble and Fred were the morning show on 102.1 for many, many years while John Derringer was down the hall being the morning show on Q107, okay? I have been hearing these stories forever, Liz. Like, I have a rule here where I won't out somebody,

but I will have somebody on, and let's say,etically speaking let's say i'll have on maureen holloway okay so maureen holloway will be sitting where you are right now and i'll be looking at her in fact this is the days before that uh like i would just i think we had a different configuration down here so we were even like closer but we're talking and i will know a lot about something uh let's say hypothetically i know a lot about Maureen Holloway and John Derringer and their relationship and what's going on there. And I know this. And I will always

carefully ask the guest because I will say, what's it like working with John Derringer? That's what I'll ask. And then I will wait to hear what comes out of a person's mouth. Because I know she hasn't gone public with this, but I know a lot of stuff. I know a lot of stuff.

I know a lot of detail. And then I think she said something. She said he's an excellent broadcaster. And then I realized she's not ready to talk about this publicly, and then I move on. And then the second time Maureen Holloway came over to kick out the jams, I actually purposely didn't mention John Derringer because I got the hint real quick that she does not want to talk about that.

So I don't mention it. So I wait for them to come out, right? I mean, I wait for them to go public with these stories, but it has been interesting doing the show through the years with many people who I know stuff that they don't want to talk about. So fine.

So I don't know anybody, but then when, of course, then when everything happened that long weekend, that May 2, 4 long weekend, it just, it all came, it all came flowing out and here we are. That was wild.

I did think one thing about that. This is a business where they like to kick you when you're down. And it made me wonder if maybe Derringer was, his ratings were going. Something happened that people stopped protecting him. Well, a lot of people have not said anything. I would say that he's sort of protected by silence. If you look, a lot of people, particularly people working for Chorus, but a lot of public figures, have

not said a word. No, I know. I know. And the person, when I said I started to know too much there was someone who communicated with me the various connections amongst you know all these people and families and okay years back and this and i'm like really i please don't tell me anymore i don't want to know but you are the you are the press i feel like you need you need to now i'm worried about what you know about me that we've talked about that I didn't get into today. Well, afterwards I'll tell you all those things I didn't get into today.

But I literally have notes here and you can't take a photo of this for the Toronto Sun, it's private. But I get some calls I've got from, but not only from the inside of Chorus, but people who were at Chorus and are now at a different company. And I have the names.

And it's like, I not kevin donovan okay i don't have i don't i'm not you know and uh kevin is an investigative journalist with the rival paper paper the toronto star so i don't i don't really do this i uh i'm busy i got four kids and i'm running tmds and stuff but am, I like to know things in case other people, I'd like to see how all the pieces fit together, right? Well, too many pieces fit together. That's all. I don't want to know.

You don't want to know, but you're still on the story, right? You're just waiting for something to happen. It's going to be a closed shop, I think. The lawyers hired will, there'll be some, you know, palatable arrangement made that, or maybe not. Maybe not.

Maybe heads will roll in management. Who knows? But I don't think so. I don't know. I know as much as you do, which is nothing. And we're all observing here. But on this Friday in late June, Liz,

I'll just tell you, I really enjoyed this convo. On your drive here, did you have any stories you wanted to share but didn't come up yet? This is the time because I don't want you driving home and saying, oh, I wanted to tell him about what or ask him about, well, this is your time, Liz. I think we've covered everything. Can I come back if I think of it later? Of course you can. You're a valued FOTM.

Liz Braun from the Toronto Sun. Maybe I should check, did I ask everything? Thank you very much for inviting me. I feel like I've joined an extremely important club now. Well, when you're enjoying your can of fresh beer and your Great Lakes and your delicious lasagna from Palma Pasta, staring at your

sticker, you sticker, while placing your order at Dewar, and hopefully not too soon, consulting my good friends at Ridley Funeral Home, and of course, enjoying the product of Canna Cabana. Where's my gift certificate for Ridley Funeral, Mike? Brad enjoying the product of Canna Cabana. Where's my gift certificate for Ridley Funeral? Mike.

Brad will take care of you. Brad, I, oh, that's what I want to say. You're an entertainment writer, you're covering entertainment. Brad Jones just spoke to a woman who covers, what does she do? She used to work in funeral services and now she discusses on her YouTube channel like how television shows funeral services

and how accurate it is or apparently there was a dexter i won't spoil anything but there's a dexter storyline that involved uh balming and it was fascinating to hear brad jones talk to this woman about television and how they portray funeral services stuff on the latest episode of life's undertaking, which is Brad Jones podcast. And Brad Jones, of course, the funeral director at Ridley funeral home in a great FOTM. And I am proud to produce that podcast.

Liz Braun, you're coming back. That was great. And you're not nervous anymore, right? Thank you so much. Cause I'm an intimidating presence. You are intimidating,

but I'm okay now. I've always wanted to be intimidating. It's finally happening. It's working. And that brings us to the end of our 1070th show. Wow, the next one's 1071, about Q107. You can follow me on Twitter. I'm at TorontoMikeLiz.

Are you at Liz Braun? I'm at L on Twitter, Liz Braun's son. Oh yes, S-U-N. S-U-N, yeah. Not S-O-N, okay. Liz Braun's son on Twitter. I'll be tweeting this link at you

before you get home. Wonderful. Our friends at Great Lakes Brewery are at Great Lakes Beer. Palma Pasta's at Palma Pasta. Your lasagna's in the freezer. Sticker U is at Sticker U. Doer are at Great Lakes Beer. Palma Pasta is at Palma Pasta. Your lasagna's in the freezer. Sticker U is at Sticker U. Dewar are at Dewar Performance.

Remember, the promo code is Toronto Mike, but if you forget and use TMDS, they should both work. Ridley Funeral Home are at Ridley FH, and Canna Cabana are at Canna Cabana underscore. See you all next week. I've been told that there's a sucker born every day But I wonder who next week. Yes, I do. And I'll play this guitar just the best that I can Maybe I'm not and maybe I am But who gives a damn because Everything is coming up

Rosy and green