Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Lorne Honickman: Toronto Mike'd Podcast Episode 1763

Episode Date: September 18, 2025

In this 1764th episode of Toronto Mike'd, Mike picks up with Lorne Honickman where they left off earlier in the month. Toronto Mike'd is proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, Ridley Funeral Home, the Waterfront BIA, Blue Sky Agency and RecycleMyElectronics.ca. If you would like to support the show, we do have partner opportunities available. Please email Toronto Mike at [e-mail].

Hey, what's up? This is Chuck D. You are listening to Toronto, Mike, right here, right now, and the place to be. 4 of Toronto Mikeed. Proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, a fiercely independent craft brewery who believes in supporting communities, good times, and brewing amazing beer. Order online for free local home delivery in the GTA.

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Recyclemyelectronics.committing to our planet's future means properly recycling our electronics of the past. And Ridley Funeral Home, pillars of the community since 1921. joining me today because it's being so long making his return to Toronto Mike. It's Lorne Honakman. Welcome back, Lorne. When was I here? Two weeks ago. Oh, that's right.

And everybody understands why I'm back. Of course. Well, everybody heard the record. Did you listen by any chance? Did you listen back to the episode we recorded two weeks ago? I'll be honest. I didn't. But I thought when I left,

because your system broke down that, yeah, I said, okay, Mike, I feel bad. I'm going to come back. We'll redo it. We'll do it again. I understand. I've got some time right now, et cetera, et cetera. And then I find out that you actually found, what, 40 minutes of what we did? Everything we recorded, I recovered it.

So it was a corrupt file. And I was giving up, like, I was going to, oh, I lost my first episode. So in 1,700 and whatever, 60-something episodes, whatever, I had lost my first ever episode and it was 40 minutes of Lauren Honnickman and you were a sweetheart that you said I'll come back and we'll do it again because thank goodness

I can't miss this opportunity to chat with my lawyer Lauren Honickman but I did recover it and then I dropped it please tell me would you have preferred I had burned deleted that 40 minutes? No there was a part of it and I'm sure you and I had a differing opinion about it when you when we spent

I think you said it was only six minutes. Six minutes, yeah, I time it felt like 60 minutes to me, I'm being honest, where we were debating whether or not it was Mark Daley's voice that we were hearing in a rush song. Subdivisions. Subdivisions. And anyway. So you felt we lingered too long, but. And I know you told me, oh, no, no, that's not true.

And I know my real close friend, El McCormick, who, and that's how I found. found out, by the way, that you actually recovered part of this because he texted me. He said, hey, Lord, yeah, that was great. I listened to that thing you did with Toronto, Mike, yes, subdivisions. Oh, and by the way, you know, I think it is Mark's voice. And I went, oh, no. But did you notice that's what he focused on? That's what resonates with people was our six minutes on subdivisions by Rush,

because I believe it is a sample of Mark Daly on CityPulse or City News. And you hated that six minutes. I saw it in your face. I recorded the video. I saw it in your face. You hated every second of that six minutes. Well, no. I hate it.

No, it was the first 25 seconds I was good with it. And it was after 25 to 30 seconds. I went, okay, yeah, that could be Mark. Anyway, yeah, it could be Mark. Well, notes came in from that 40 minutes I dropped. And what I did at the end because it ends abruptly because to tell people what happened. My hard drive filled up and it stopped all the software that was recording us. And I have a backup.

So both were stopped, and both files were corrupted because of the way it stopped. So the lesson I learned is, and it hadn't happened in, you know, how many years have I been doing this, right, Lauren? So this was the first time. And I'm almost glad it was you. And I mean that because, like, imagine I'm sitting down with, I played that Chuck D. Okay, I played him off the top. Imagine I'm sitting with Chuck D, and that happens. And I think I would just be as white as a ghost, and I would be like, I don't know what I would do.

I would just hate myself for the rest of my life. But it happened. I learned a lesson, right? Like with your kids, it's like as long as you learn from it. Right. Right. And here we are back. And here's the notes that came in from that 40 minutes.

So I dropped the whole 40 minutes and then I did a record scratch. And then I just put in a little bit of future mic to explain why the episode ended so abruptly and that we'd pick it up in a couple of weeks. Austin Delaney listened to that 40 minutes and said, great guy with three exclamation marks. Back to Mark Daly. Just kidding. Three exclamation marks.

Loved being in court with him. What are your memories of working alongside Austin Delaney at the competitor? Great memories with Austin. And that was part. Austin was at CFTO in case there's maybe one person in the world that may not know that. And CFTO and City TV, we were, quote, the competitors. And it was back in the day, there was. the four of us. When I say us, I'm talking about the stations, right? City Pulse, CFTO, Global, and CBC. And when

your stories went on at night, you'd be looking at the three monitors. You only had three monitors that you had to look at. And that was, well, what did SIFTO get? What did CBC? Do we have everything? Is everything there? That was what we did. And when you're out on the street, that's when you meet the other reporters. And back in that day, if you ever talked about another news station you never mentioned anything on the air you never say oh well cf city tv would never i would never go on and say cfTO said today i mean you just didn't do those things right but while the powers to be at the stations were very very concerned about all of that as reporters out on the street we were friends with everybody and i met austin back in the day um i i think i was out

there first before him. I'm sure I'm older than he is. But we had, it was just one of those great times. And Austin and I had a great moment together. And if we ever, if I ever got to talk to Austin about it again is when we were out on a waiting for police to come. There was some, I don't know what it was, what crime scene it was. We're all out there. And we, we used to get teased at City Post News that we had to always walk when we talked, right? Didn't, stand in front of a building. Kinetic motion. This is like a Moses thing. Yeah, just keep moving. Keep moving. So if I was in front

of it, I would, if I ever stood and just pointed to a building behind me, that could be problems when that story went there. So we always walked and talked and it was and I was teasing and Austin and he was teasing me

and I said, listen, I'm going to teach you how to walk and talk. And we did that and we had fun with it out there. But somehow it made, do you remember a guy at the Toronto son, Gary Dunford? Of course. I correspond via email with Dumpf. Oh, do you?

Yeah. Okay. So he is listening to this pro. He might be listening right now. All right. Well, I am certain, and I think he was page six. That's it. Right?

It was a page six. And I think it made it into, you know, what was going on in that scene when City Pulse reporter Lauren Honickman was trying to show CTV report, I had a walk in. Anyway, we thought it was funny. But I think that the people. people we worked for didn't think it was very funny because you know you don't you don't start teaching the competition quote unquote but anyway that's just one one little thing that I hope Austin would remember but we spent a lot of time on the street together great great great guy I

when I saw when he retired if I was on social media I would have I would have gone out there immediately and I would have just written stuff about Austin and he was he was one of the you know He came from my era, so I'm a little prejudiced that way, but he was, it was just a wonderful guy and actually a really solid reporter. This is your social media, Lauren Honak. I mean, you don't need to be on Facebook or Instagram. You just have to drop by the basement once in a while. Right. So Austin, you mentioned his retirement.

He came over for his exit interview. We talked about his entire career. Yeah, it was amazing. You got to listen to Austin Delaney on Toronto, Mike. But here's what I'm, now, you know, I've done this for a while now and I've done whatever, 1,600 episodes. So what really, like, gets me excited now is pairing people up. So it's possible we could have a future episode of Toronto Mike with Austin Delaney and Lauren Honak. Wow, you know, I think for the people listening, I'd be very excited, you know, even for Austin.

But, yeah, no, I would, I would. I could make, but I can make that happen. Okay. I will do my best anyways. But that's not the only note that came in since the 40 minutes, and we have a lot of ground to get to. That's why you're back. But Paul Stockton wrote in and said,

Paul wrote, when you have Lauren Honnickman on, please ask him what Howard's up to these days. I worked for him for many, many years. And he doesn't mean humble Howard my last guest. No, he knows that he means Howard Honickman. He means my brother. That's funny.

Paul Stockton, I have to remember that name because I'm going to see my brother Howard in a few weeks. Well, I recorded it, so you can just revisit the tapes. Howard is doing, Howard's doing well. He's, he's, he's been retired a long time. He's, and he's, he's living the life in a lot of ways. He's, he's battled a few health issues, and he's, he's done pretty, very well that way.

So I will certainly, certainly say hi to my brother from Paul Stockton. I'll remember that. Amazing. Al Grego wrote in, he listened to the 40 Minutes, and it made him want to watch the Christine Jessup story, which is streaming on Crave. And we did dive into it during that 40 minutes, but I will follow up shortly with some questions I never got to. But this is what Al wrote. I finished the Christine Jessup story the other day. It was really well made. Lorne was all over it. He just points out, Queensville is literally the next town over for me. I drive through it every day. So that Christine Jessup tragic story struck home for Al because he lives like Holland's Landing or something like that. Now were you able to because I didn't listen to what you were able to say from our first interview. So did you have, obviously you touched upon it and I know we went into it. Yeah, that's a three-part crave special.

I was asked to be in back in November where it's examining the entire story, the Christine Jessup murder right through from the time that she gets abducted and missing in 1984, right to 1998 when there was the Kaufman Commission that looked into the whole issue of the arrest and an unlawful conviction, wrongful conviction of Guy Paul Moran in that murder and what happened afterwards. So it was an interesting thing for me to be in. And one of the reasons that for me that I was, I said, yes, I will do it, is that it was one of those stories that I got involved in from the beginning to the end. And the end being in 98, I wasn't, obviously, I wasn't part of any story back in 2020 when they finally identified

who the real killer was. But it certainly was a story that from the time that Christine Jessup went missing right until 98 when I came back after law school and I was covering courts for CityPulse News at that time. and you know what Mike it's it was interesting when I talked to you about it and um afterwards i I've spoken to a lot of people who have said hey I just saw that story wow Lorne yeah you know and you and I were talking I think this is when when we lost uh remember nothing we said on the mics was lost because I recovered right no you recovered okay so when when we were talking and I was talking about how covering those stories for me back then were so significant because I had young

kids and it it always i know a lot of people who work in the business you got to separate yourself you got to just it's it's almost like you've got to put a shield around what you're doing but for me back then because it was covering one story after another we you and i talked about that every summer there seemed to be a kid missing and one thing that i didn't even mention to you that i remembered after i left that i had covered before the christine jess of story was the deaths at the hospital for sick children when when those babies they said were murdered susan nellis was charged she was exonerated they had what was called the grange commission to look into all that and i covered that entire story so it it was one thing after another dealing with kids um and it it was for me back then and i talked about

this with you with my kids being so little it had a great effect on me i i wasn't able to as i know a lot of my colleagues did, was able to just sort of totally separated. A lot of it came into me, but I was happy to participate, and I'm glad the producers did as good of a job as they did with that because it tells really a tragic story, and it's really the story of what happened to Ken Jessup. And of course, I know some people have said, and I've heard this mic where they said, oh, geez, Lauren, I wish you would have talked more about Guy Paul Moran as well

and the effect that at 100%, I mean, I mean, that's another story within the story. These producers were focusing on what happened to the Jessop family, but it doesn't take, minimize anything about what happened to Guy Paul Moran with respect to being wrongfully charged and wrongfully convicted. No, absolutely. And the reason this is so compelling is, one, you're all over it and you did a great job. And I did pump your tires during that 40 minutes.

People go back and hear those tires being pumped. But you, you know, I mean, Christine's brother, is obviously featured strongly as he should be. But you're like the narrator of this three-part docu-series that's on Crave right now. You're basically the voice that kind of guides us through because there's so many twists

and turns, like for example the fact that Guy Paul Moran who, spoiler alert, was wrongfully convicted of murdering Christine Jessup, but he was originally found not guilty. Right. And then they re-arrest him and they try him and then after five days of deliberation, the jury

finds him guilty. Like, they're so many twists and turns in the, uh, in the story, huge. It was, there's so many parts of it. That's right. He was originally found not guilty. The court of appeal overturned the, the acquittal. They ordered the new trial. And then he gets, one thing I, I, I will always remember, Mike, and I'm not sure if I mentioned to this last time is I did say, I do remember saying to you that that last, that was the last trial I covered before I started law school. I had started law school about three weeks later. and I will always remember Jack Pinkowski was the lawyer for Guy Paul Moran

and Jack Pinkowski at that time was very, very well-known, unbelievable lawyer. I mean, a tireless advocate. He was just, he's one of those people and he was like a piranha and his cross-examinations were, like I can remember him to this day. When Guy Paul was convicted, I went back into the courtroom. We had all the scrums.

everything took place everybody sort of wrapping up getting their stuff coming out and he sees me i see him he knew i was starting law school he came up to me i could see that his eyes that he had been crying i could see that and he knew i was starting law school and he said when you become a lawyer don't ever ever get too close to your clients because things like this are just too hard to cope with something along those lines and it was something like i will i'll never forget obviously um and um it was one of those trials and one of those situations where you where you say to yourself what is did i just see there by the way that trial of gie paul morans took place right after um the the the trial of robert boltovich another person who ended up being exonerated as as as

being found not to have committed the murder of Elizabeth Bain. I don't know if everybody remembers that story. I can still see that photo they would run in the paper of Elizabeth. Right. So I had covered that just before that. Jack Pinkowski, I had covered a story, a trial of his,

gavel to gavel. Some people may remember Julie Bowers. She was a woman up in Concordin who was accused of leaving her 10-month-old baby Justin Bowers in the snow and that trial was moved to Toronto and she was acquitted and a lot of people felt oh that may have been a quote wrongful acquittal those trials back then that I was involved in they were we had a responsibility that I and I'm happy to talk about this with you a little later or whenever you want to talk about it the problem with when you're watching court reporting right today as

it was back then, the people that I used to cover trials with who were much better than me. I mean, the Kirk Macon's, Christy Blatchford, these are people that I have and had tremendous amount of respect for. I've got a lot of problems right now the way legal issues are covered, and we can talk about that. Would you mind elaborating a little right now while we're on the subject? Well, there's a lot of ground I want to cover with you, but we're going to do this. One of the, one of the problems with covering courts or covering legal stories is that they're not as easy as perhaps when I put easy in quotes to ensure that there's an understanding of what's going on.

It's not, it's to sit in a courtroom, for example, for six hours and to come out if you're doing a television report and to be able to get that 90 seconds and be able to. So people, it's, it's not easy. You have to really work at it. And you have to, and in order to understand it, you have to understand what's actually going on for you to be able to report it. And it's, and, and I cast no aspersions. I mean, not everybody goes to law school to become a lawyer so you can, you can cover courts or whatever. But before I even went to law school, one of the things that ended up happening for me was because I was in the courts all the time, you're learning by osmosis, you're watching the law. lawyers, you're talking, and you're trying to understand what the important part of it is.

Today, when I see or read what's happening a lot of times, and especially if I'm listening to talk radio, if I happen to be listening, and people are saying, oh, well, this happened. I saw a lot of it, for example, Mike, during the trial of the five hockey players in London, sexual assault trials are really complicated trials. But for the public, it's almost like, well, who do you believe? It's a he said, she said who? So who are you going to believe? Is the judge going to believe the players?

The judge is going to believe the complainant? It's not that easy. It's much more complicated than that. It's not a credibility battle between the two. But that's how it comes upon. So a lot of people, and I heard this happening, for example, with the Michael Thompson trial, counselor Thompson that just got to he just got to quit it I heard people talk oh well yeah his trial took so long oh it was in all different places oh wow he was what's you know and oh the woman said this but he when I ever get asked Mike to come on now to talk about a case I'll always say I wasn't in the courtroom I wasn't there so I don't know I'll always urge people to read judgments if if a court comes out with a judgment in a 50 page judgment I'll always say to people people, get it online, read it. It might be a lot of legalese in there. That's where I think

the reporting is failing in a lot of ways, is that people are not, the people who are reporting may not understand all the nuances. And you may say, well, I'm not a lawyer. I don't know all the, but in a lot of times, to me, and again, I'm speaking, this is my opinion, that's where we're falling below the line. Now, there's some real good, let me, let me, let me, let me, let me, me be very clear here, just so I'm not casting aspersions in all court reporting right now. Betsy Powell, the Toronto Star, for example, she's been doing it, she's good. That's somebody who, if I read, if she's reporting from the court, I know there's a level of credibility there for me.

Same with Michelle Mandel, who's been doing it for a while at the Toronto Sun or a long time. She's been reporting from the courts and legal stories. So, but if I'm watching, if I turn on the TV and I see somebody and they'll go, let's go to John Doe, who's in London right now, and I'll, I'll listen and I'll say, okay, I'm sure they're, I'm missing something here or something else happened or whatever. When you and I put together Judgment Day, when I was doing those podcasts for you for that short period of time, one of the reasons I wanted to do it at that time was because I think, said to myself, maybe I can help that way. Maybe I can sort of make people understand a little more because it's not, and again, not everybody can go and get a legal education and then cover courts. It's not an easy thing to do, but we're not getting, in my opinion, the level of reporting

that we need to get on all these legal issues. And it's just one of many things that I have a, I'm concerned about when I look and I say it's the public understanding what just happened here. No, your perspective on this is very valuable because you are unique in that you were a broadcast, a good broad, an excellent broadcast, dare I say, I was watching. I do miss the mustache, but I think I won't dwell on that for six minutes. But you're an excellent broadcaster who became a lawyer. So you have the two sides of the, you have the broadcasting acumen, but you are, you know the law.

You're a lawyer. So there aren't a lot of Lauren Honnickman's out there. And I don't think, I'm going to, this is me wondering aloud whether they want to pay what it would cost to get a Lauren Honnickman to cover these trials. Well, nobody, nobody is, I can tell you this. The phone, is that, can I still say the phone's not ringing? Yeah, it's a mobile phone. Yeah, the mobile phone. Please, it's not a landline.

Okay, that's right. The mobile phone's not ringing. The emails aren't coming in from anywhere saying, hey, listen, we need a 71-year-old white male to come on our team. TV station right now to talk about legal issues. So I haven't had that, I haven't had that call. Well, I don't know why the age would matter. I would think that the 71 would be working in your advantage because you've seen some shit, Lauren, you know what I mean?

Like you've been there, you were covering the Christine Jessup case. Yeah, no, no, I get you. You know, you're blowing through an open door as the expression goes, but I, but I, well, I'm going to ask you more about, I have more, I want to wrap up our discussion on this three part Christine Jessup story. that is airing on Crave right now? I would urge people to watch it, not because I'm in it, but, you know, but I think that it's, it's a really good,

it was made very, very well by the people who, who, who, who put it together. And it's, it's an important story here in Ontario, uh, in Canada. And, um, it's, it's a really sad story. So, well, there's two tragedies in this story, right? You got a young girl who is murdered. That's as sad as it gets.

But you have a man. Guy Paul Moran, who's, they take so much of his life away from him. Right. My, I wrote down a note, guilty for being weird. Yeah, that no, no, it's, and what you see, that's right, Mike. And one of the underlying issues in the entire story is the police investigation, and you put investigation in quotes. I mean, it wasn't a good investigation.

It, you, when you watch this, it reminds you of all the things that happened that they did and that they didn't do and what they could have done that they didn't do and you see what happened to ken jessup and ken jessop lost his mom his dad his sister um he's having to live through all of that and there's a there's a lot of layers there and it's it's you're absolutely correct and i think that the gee paul moran story will will should be done uh if it hasn't been done yet and by the way i mentioned his name kirk macken um kirk macken who I haven't seen or talked to in a long time, who was

Globe and Mail reporter. I think the best legal justice reporter the country has ever had. That's my opinion. He wrote the book on this case called Regrim the Innocent because those are the words that

quote an undercover, not undercover officer, an informant in the jail said that that's what Guy Paul had that's murder spelled backwards, red rum. But I'm hopeful one day maybe we'll see him and others in the story about Guy Paul Moran. Everyone who saw the shining knows that red rum is murder backwards.

Okay. Have you seen the shining? Yes, of course. Just making sure. So just one last note I wanted to ask you about Ken Jessup spoke to this. But he talked about the brainwashing that he received from police in that he until the DNA evidence basically showed that

it wasn't Guy Paul Moran the DNA evidence that it was not Guy Palmarin, until that Ken Jessup still believed even when he was a, was that exonerated? What's the term when you're... He still believed

Guy Palmeran murdered his sister because of the intense brainwashing he spoke about receiving from the police. The police, I mean, hopefully, you know, I talked about learning like when your hard drive, make sure your hard drive has space, are you going to lose valuable content?

I learned a valuable lesson. I hope the police learned a lesson from this. Well, I think what came out of this, and that's why they had the Kauffman Commission, the idea of that commission was he made numerous recommendations going forward that I think many police forces have incorporated now. So that's one of the good things that comes out of such a tragic type situation. when you can go back and take the microscope and look at it.

Same thing happened at the Grange Commission that I talked about earlier that looked at the deaths at the hospital for sick children and looked at the police investigation at that time as to why they charged a nurse so quickly. So when you have these public inquiries, it doesn't change anything. It doesn't make anything better. But it gets you some answers

and it gets you recommendations to do what you just said, Mike, to hopefully not commit the same errors going forward. So I mentioned, even though it's only been two weeks, I received several emails about your episode. Like, maybe the trick is 40-minute episodes. Maybe I'm doing it wrong. Like, I should cut off all my guests at 40 minutes and say, if you want more, come back.

Maybe that's a trick, right? I would never do that, by the way. But Austin Delaney, Paul Stockton, Al Grego, there were a couple more. Tyler Campbell wrote in, and Tyler wrote more of a comment than a question for Lauren. I thought he was bang on when he said, he quotes you,

to the best of my ears ability, it sounds a little like Mark Daly. I totally agree with him. So again, I'm going to just, this won't be long. It won't be six minutes. It'll be far less.

Send me one minute. One minute. You're going to play this again. No, so let me go on the right. Okay. Okay, just a minute.

Before you do anything. Yes, sir. We're in a, I'm going to put you. You're walking out. No, no, no. No, no.

No, I'm going to do what you never experienced in your life. We're going to, pretend we're in a courtroom right now and I'm going to say your honor I understand that my friend notwithstanding my objection is going to be going back to an area that I objected to I just want the record to be clear that I'm not happy with this and I'm objecting to this I just think the record should be clear thank actually I that was cool I like that you did that so I'm not going to play what I played last time because I got another final email I'll read it well I won't read it I'm going to just to summarize it for you.

It came from the aforementioned Al McCormick. So remind the listenership how you know Al McCormick. Well, Al is one of my closest friends. Al and I, when I started at City TV, he was a cameraman who was working there at the time. We became friends. And he and his wife Mara and my wife, Kathy, have been very, very close friends from that day on.

And up until this moment, spoke to Al last week. So when I heard that he was, that when he told me that he, he had heard the episode that I thought was gone. Yeah, yeah. I said, how did you hear that? Did you hack into Mike's MacBook Pro?

No, he just told me and I just, and anyway, so he said. I love that. You think this episode was gone because when you left, it was gone. And I said, we'll just do it again in a couple of weeks, right? But the fact that I didn't tell you, I resurrected it. released it into the wilds. Okay. So, but essentially in a nutshell, Al McCormick, would you say Lauren Honickman that Al McCormick was

friendly with Mark Daly from City TV? Of course. Just a minute. Can I, can I help here? So Al McCormick, heard the clip, put it through it and, and agrees with you that it is Mark Daly. Well, Al McCormick, somebody who worked with, you can concur, he worked with Mark Daly. He used some AI processing to, uh,

basically in the mix raised the vocals this is again Russia's subdivisions okay I'll be back it's only 11 seconds okay go ahead this is Al McCormick

not Al Grego that was a different email Al McCormick sent me this 11 seconds so I will play it for Al and for the listeners and for you Lauren

here it is okay subdivisions in the high school halls in the shopping malls conform or be cast house in the basement bars so now

listening where the vocals are in the mix are elevated and the music is down. So you can hear the vocals better one more time. Subdivisions. In the high school halls in the shopping malls conform or be castles in the basement bars.

We'll leave this topic once and for all Lauren Honnickman. We have so much ground to cover. But now that you heard that AI version that Al McCormick sent me beyond a reasonable doubt, right? right? Oh, sorry, I wasn't listening. I was just answering some, are you finished on the subdivision stuff? We're done, but beyond a reasonable doubt, that's a sample of Mark Daly, right?

Oh, I was just treating this like you were doing a commercial and I, I was just going to say, are we back? Do you agree? Now, we're moving on now. Okay, let's move on. You agree? Beyond a reasonable doubt. You know, we're not in court, by the way. Okay, Mike. Okay, okay. Lauren's. getting angry. We're moving on. We're moving on. We're good. Lauren, serious time. Did you hear the sad news? I shared it during the Humble Howard episode, which was only a couple of days ago on Tuesday, that Mike Stafford's wife, Jody Stafford, has passed away from cancer. Have you heard that news? No, I did. I'm sorry to give you this bad news. I'm so sorry to hear that. And if

Mike is listening or will be listening, my deepest condolences. So sorry to hear that. we forget that I think it was the first time Mike Stafford came over after he was fired by Chorus and lost his 640 morning show gig, you heard that episode and you actually, a friend of yours or some lawyer you're acquainted to, you were able to get this lawyer to take on this contingency. So, no, I just saw, yeah, just the details. Just the details were, were very simple. I wasn't trying to help Mike file lawsuits or do anything. My concern for Mike was I heard him talking with you about the fact that he was considering taking legal action or and I thought to myself, Mike probably has no idea that there's a two year limitation period on all lawsuits that if he's

actually going to do anything, he's going to have to do it within two years. So that's what I, that's the information that I got to him. And then obviously I wasn't going to be able to act for him. And I was able to find a lawyer that I had worked with earlier. And I just said, hey, listen, maybe you can help Mike out. And that was it. That's all I did. But I listened to some of your podcast with him subsequently.

And I remember listening. And I don't know what the status is. And I remember hearing over and over again that. Things were still dragging along. That's the update. Things are still dragging. Welcome to the civil. But that's a long time.

Is that typical? Yes. Unfortunately, I know. Unfortunately, the wheels of justice in this province, especially the civil litigation wheels, it's awful. Do you know that for lawyers like me who deal mainly on the civil side, I've done a lot of criminal work, but mainly on the civil side, If you sit down, if somebody comes in, quote, unquote, into your office, or you talk to them on the phone or over Zoom, and they may have a really good case, whatever the case may be, one of the very first things I say, and I'm sure all lawyers say, is, look, if you're going to get into this process right now, it's right now, it's September of 2025.

You want to file a claim right now. we may go to trial in September of 2028. And I look at you and you go, are you serious? Yes. And that's a problem. And we have a huge, huge problem. And there's, there's, there are great people right now trying to do something about it, judges, lawyers. But so far, even though things are starting to maybe get a little better, that's the problem.

And people, you can be, you can be inside a lawsuit, Mike. And once you're there, you feel like you can never get out. And that's a problem. So I'm not surprised to hear, by the way, that Mike's updates to you are that nothing has happened yet. Mike's financial situation, well, his personal life, of course, is devastating right now because he was in Lindsay, Ontario to be with Jody when she passed. It only happened early.

I think it was Monday. So, but financially, I've had conversations lately with Mike. And financially, the situation is dire. Like, he needed to get to Lindsay, and he took an Uber, believe it or not, from Toronto to Lindsay, because he didn't have a car. And, like, he's basically completely broke. He does have shelter right now. He's living with his sister. But it's just a shame that we can't get some resolution there because Mike believes that after 25 years of service at Chorus, he was entitled to some severance.

And this is ongoing. and it's been a long time. So it sounds like that's situation normal. Wish Mike all the best. Wish him the best. But I do want to ask you something about your relationship with 640, which is a chorus station, in that do you think Lauren Honnickman, you're on the stand right now? Oh, boy.

In your opinion, do you think being involved in anyway, even though you weren't trying to help Mike, but the fact that you in any way tipped Mike off to the fact there was a two-year, because he didn't know about that two-year deadline to file something, and then it happened. Do you think that has hurt your chances to do any radio work at AM 640? You know what? I have no idea. Hostile way,

does this case? No, I don't know. Look, I get asked. I get on, you know, Alex Pearson asked me to come on once in a while. I've been asked to, I've done different shows there.

So I'll get asked to come on as far as global television. I get asked. I've done, I was asked several times. So I don't, you know what? You're not blacklisted. No, no, no, I think, look, let me just tell you about my time at 6-4.

I had a great time. I was, for those who may not know, from 2010 to 2017, I was Oakley's fill-in host when he was doing the morning show from 6 to 10. And I'd fill in the afternoon when Bill Carroll was there. There were some days I would be on Oakley and then I'd come back later in the day. And it was a crazy time because what was happening is if I did Oakley's show and the show was six to ten. I'd come in at around 4.30, do the show, finish at 10, and then head to my office to practice law all day, and I would do that for the week or two weeks that Oakley was away.

But it was a great time for me, and I will say this. Anybody who knows me knows that maybe they would disagree. Maybe they'd say, no, Lord just said something now, and it's totally false. I'm not the greatest self-advocate, a self-marketer. I'm one of the, you know, a lot of people can go out there and they pat themselves on the back all the time or whatever. People who know me really well will say, you know, Lauren, you shouldn't be so, you know, you should give yourself credit for some. So I'm going to do this with respect to my time as a fill in host. When I did the Oakley show and I did it with Jimmy Koshan, who I don't know if anybody out there knows that, name. I hope they do. He was he was the board op at at AM 640. I believe one of the most talented guys I had

ever met and I did shows with him. I will say this Mike that if anybody found air checks of those shows I put that up to any talk radio stuff not every show obviously but many of the shows we did four hours. I remember a senior chorus official I think his name was Chris Pandoff at the time coming down after one of my shows and saying that was unbelievable you did funny you did serious this and that but one of the things that i did because i thought that i had to do it was because it was talk radio i opened the phone lines i would get the i'd get the phones from beginning to end just jam let's go to mike in toronto mike what do you think let's go to susan and scarborough susan what do you think and a lot so when i compare what i was doing to what i hear now on talk radio

Now in Talk Radio, I see, okay, all right, here we go. Host is going to, you know, pontificate for five to seven minutes on a subject. You know, all right, well, maybe we'll take a few calls. I've heard that once in a while. All right, let me bring in this expert. All right, we've been talking about what happened right now, like with Jimmy Kimmel being let go, his show being canceled for indefinitely. Let's go, I'm going to bring on, you know, Jane,

who's a media expert from what and and do my my five to seven minute interview or whatever. You know, Gary Bell wasn't a board op. It's a spaceman, they called him. I guess people who are in radio will know him. He was on CFTR before that. Right. He called me the call king. So, and he'd say, oh, the call king's here.

Here's the call king. And I was proud of that. I was proud of that. I would, for me, it was like, isn't that what I'm doing? It's soundtrack, the soundtrack of Toronto, that's what we're going to do. I'm going to come in there. You know, one time, Mike, one show that I did was through the ice storm. When was that, 2013?

Chorus back then was not known for coming on at times that things weren't really supposed to happen. Like, you know what I mean? It was like, if you don't bring somebody in because there's a breaking news story. Right. I was used to that in television. Well, you're from City TV where you were everywhere. Right. But when that ice storm was there, and I had people listening on transistor radios or whatever, you know, and we were doing, all right, I got Mary, who's in an apartment in a Tobacco, Mary can't, yeah, thank you, Lauren, I'm here. I can't get down. And what, all right, all right, just stay where you are, Mary. Our producer is going to try and get, you know, we're going to do, we're going to try and get Toronto Fire to come help you there. Those are the types of things I do. Now, the shows that I did, now the shows that I did, with Jimmy Koshan.

I mean, I don't know where Jimmy is now. I, if somebody said to me, somebody said, Mike, you know what, Lauren, can we get you, we've located Jimmy and can we put you and Jimmy together, do a show together or whatever, I do that literally in a heartbeat. I would, that's the type of stuff because I believe that when for me, and again, this is my opinion like when talk radio for me back then oakley oakley used to do now i don't get to hear him in the afternoon now because i just i'm not around at you know three to six when he's on now uh so i don't know you know to me he was he was unbelievable at what he did and i and i'm

i'm certain he still is i know he took lots of callers as well but that to me is something that I love to do and people used to hate people say what can you what aren't you just sick of those like you know like gym in in north york you know like you know who will come on he'll give you sort of the right side and then you brought sally from sky she's always sort of on the left side and i said well no that that's what's great thing about it just let people go that's what they need that's that's the purpose now i'm sure everybody out there who does talk radio right now is like honickman has no no idea what he's talking about. That's not what talk radio is.

That's not what it is. Talk radio is, it's views. Let's get them on. Let's get the panels on. You know, let's do that and whatever. And that's okay.

And if it's entertaining, I suppose that's okay. But is it informative? Is that really what it is? And what's my cred? What's that credibility? You know, you said before, Mike, you said,

well, Lauren, you know, you bring that, you know, when covering courts, I mean, you got that interesting combination. broadcaster, lawyer, or whatever. What I was hoping that combination gave me is the credentials and credibility, the two Cs, that's all.

So if I came out and I'm doing something, somebody's saying, oh, okay, you know, he's coming from a certain place of credibility, but, you know, he's allowing this person to speak or allowing that person to speak. And we're getting, at least we're getting some sort of, why am I listening to this? you know, am I listening to it because I just want to hear what Honnickman has to say or am I listening to it because I get to hear all these people talking. So anyway, I don't think, 2017 was when I was last asked to guest host on any chorus radio show.

I've never been asked since then. I have, I am, and you asked, you started this whole discussion by asking me, do I think it's because of a tip off that I gave to Mike Stafford about a limitation period? I don't think so. I hope not, but I don't think it has anything to do with that. I think it really is just, you know what? Got tired of Honeckman or whatever. Got tired of everybody, right?

Because you're not alone. I mean, Peter Sherman, for example. Oh, yeah, another guy. I mean, he was, for me, that getting rid of him or not allowing him on was also made no sense from a credibility point of view. Listening to Peter, you know, I say to myself, there was a guy again. Now, somebody may be listening to this and say, Mike, well, this is just an old fart. You know, these, you know, one old fart saying, yeah, another old fart should have been on and, and whatever. No, no, no, it's nothing, it has nothing to do, you know, about that at all.

It's like if I'm listening to somebody and somebody's telling me something and somebody's given me their opinion and if they're not going to calls and they're not taking it, but they're actually giving me five minutes of what they think is something, well, what's the reason I'm listening to? Why am I listening? Is it just because, oh, that's interesting? Or is it because am I learning anything? Am I getting proper information? And how do I? I mean, we can get into misinformation soon if you want.

I mean, that to me is a much bigger problem than whether talk radio is doing what it should be doing. But I would, for me, if I ever went back into talk radio, if somebody said, hey, Lorne, yeah, come on back. Let's do talk radio. This is the format. You get on. going to talk you talk for five to seven minutes you bring somebody on we'll do but i said i'd be going can i take calls oh no no no we don't we do no no we do what we ask is for people to text and you can read some of their texts oh okay maybe i don't want to do this i'd much rather just say hey

hey everybody it's honickman let's go let's talk here we are do you think that the demise of these live calls is uh because there's nobody calling Well, if you tell me, how many people are actually listening and how many people listening are going to call in 2025? Well, let me, okay, so that's really a great question that with this person who has no, as we said earlier, social media, you know, profile. When I drop your episodes, I can't tag you anywhere. Exactly. So, but I, maybe you're right. Maybe nobody's listening and because nobody's listening. However, however, if, there is a so so here's how i would respond to that if nobody's listening so maybe there's nobody out there to call if if that is if if that's the reason um then obviously you can't you can't

force the calls you can't make the calls it's it's i would hazard a guess i have no expertise in this but so i'll hazard a guess that if the word it sort of got out and it was understood that this is the place that you could call. This is the place that was soliciting your opinion. So instead of maybe sitting on your computer and just scrolling through X, maybe, all right, you know what? Maybe I'll do what I did five years ago.

Maybe I'll go back and turn on AM radio. I haven't listened to AM radio in a long time, but I understand that this is what's going on. I don't know, Mike. Well, let me share an experience I had only three weeks ago. I used to work at the C&E, the Canadian National Exhibition. I worked three years there as a teenager, and I blogged about this at TorontoMike.com.

So a producer of Ontario Today, which is a Ontario show, obviously, that airs on CBC Radio 1 at noon. So it's like, and they take calls live. And I received an email from a producer there that said, we love what you wrote. Would you be the first caller? Okay, so it's basically telling me to be the first caller. And I nicely said, oh, I would do this.

I'll talk about the X of CBC, but I'm chatting with Sophie B. Hawkins at that time because I had Sophie B. Hawkins scheduled to do a Toronto Mic episode at that very time. So I said, I'm sorry, I can't do it. I'm not available at noon. And you know what they said to me? That's okay. Let's do it at 11 o'clock.

Okay? So they basically set it up where they phoned me at 11 a.m. Right. To be the first caller at 1205. Okay? So you're with me here? Yes. So one thing is so obviously I'm not a call.

caller. I didn't call. And I'm also not live because it was recorded at 11 a.m. with the host. But also, they did edit what I said. Like, so I said stuff. I think I sang, let's go to the XO baby. Like some, some wonderful stuff I did. You did that? I did that. But that was edited out. So it never made it. But so they edited it and they really did make it seem like I was the first caller at 1205. So it made me wonder, because I've never worked in radio. I don't like that. It made me wonder. maybe this is how it is now like maybe these live callers

that you're talking about they're pre-arranged and pre-recorded or I shouldn't do that or at least scheduled like hey will you please call us at this time you're gonna you know what I mean like as opposed to just saying hey

lines are open call in here's the number I have a feeling the reason that they did it the way they did it with me that's CBC okay love it or hate it a lot of people are probably listening at noon to CBC radio across this province, the entire province. So there probably are people listening, but I have a feeling in 2025, literally maybe nobody is calling. I'm not saying nobody's listening, but nobody's calling.

Well, nobody's calling because are they, are they ramping it up? Are they asking for the calls? I mean, I'll, I'll listen. I wake up listening to talk radio. That's how our radio goes off in the morning. What station? 640. Okay. Okay. I'll, I'm, I've got 640 on. I have it on. I'll listen. So I'll wake up with listening to Brady in the morning for a for a short time until I'm out of the house I've never now maybe maybe it's later in the morning during his show so but in the time that I'm listening which will be from about a quarter to six till about seven 30 okay um I don't hear a caller I don't know if he's going I don't know if he takes it after um I have no idea but that's that's for me when I when I would

start at 6 o'clock in the morning when I'm sitting in for Oakley and you're seeing yourself, so I'll come on. I remember the way it worked, Mike. I come on, good morning, yeah, blah, blah, blah. Jimmy and I would sort of go back and forth a bit. What's going on here today? And, you know, it's like, this is what we're going to do, blah, blah, blah.

And did you hear what happened last night? And about at by 607, I'm already open up the phone lines, right? So, and but what I did know, what I came to learn was, Oh, at that time in the morning, who's waking up, who's going to call? No, it's going to be somebody on the road. So maybe it's going to be truckers out there. Right. Right.

So we would say, and this was where Jimmy's great expertise came in, Jimmy would say, no, let's talk about, you know, like if we, if something we know that whoever's listening at this time. And you know what? Would there be times, Mike, where I'd go, all right, so call me eight. And I can do the numbers, Mike, right now. 870, 6,400, star, 6,000. 640 on cell.

So what do you think, right? Should potholes all be filled before a new highway is built? You know, and you go, wow. Like when you think back, but that probably was a topic at one point, right? I can hear that being a topic. Like, you know, whatever it was, but, you know, you would get. So using today again as an example, using today again as an example, because I know everybody's talking about, everybody's talking about Jimmy Kimmel.

You know, okay, I get it. I get it. And I know they're coming from it from all sides. I understand. That would be, if I was doing talk radio this morning in the way that I liked to do talk radio, when I'd be, if I was driving it, of course, I'd be going, oh, wow, this, this, all right, you know, 610, I'm going to get the phones lit up. And I'll get them lit up.

And all right. So here's what I think right now, everyone. Here's what I think. I think that this was, this isn't a matter, this is, this is a matter of, of Jimmy Kimmel being canceled. This is the latest cancel culture that we have. Now it's coming from an opposite, what, 870, 6400, I shouldn't be given course his numbers out of here. I'm just doing it because I remember that's what I used to do. No, it's fine.

I like it. Anyway, but that's what I used to, and I would know like I'd get the phones. And the great thing also, Mike, about getting the public is, yeah, of course you're getting lots of quote. uninformed opinion, but what it is, it's, it's opinion that goes beyond the experts, goes beyond me, it's because that's what we, so, you're taking the temperature. That's all I, that's what I liked. You're taking the temperature. What is it out there?

And if you're listening to somebody and somebody's like just going off the rails, somebody's saying improper, my job was, yeah, you know, somebody's going, oh, yeah, this is, this is just because, you know, blah, blah, blah, you know, like, uh, this was a deal. that was worked out behind the scenes and, you know, okay, how do you know that? You know, so you would challenge a caller. You would do that, but at least, at least I'd be saying to myself, well, there's, there's, there's a good reason for it. You know, when I did legal briefs on city TV and that, uh, that was CP 24 for those 10 years,

and that was the, my legal show that I did once a week. And it was talk TV, right? We'd open up the phone lines and I'd be looking into the camera. I'd have a guest. Maybe I had somebody on. we're talking about a big legal issue. Let's go to the phones. I'm looking into the camera.

Let's go to Mike in a Tobico. Mike, it was exactly the same thing. And you would just hear Mike's voice. And so, but people like that. And I think there's a reason that you liked it, that even though you're listening to just everyday people, that's really the important discussion for me. That's the discussion that I'm sure other people out there right now

would say, Lauren, you're crazy, like, you know, you'd get the wackos, and if you open up the phone, like, why do you want to hear all of that? Well, because you're given people that opportunity to be able to at least express themselves. And I would think, or I would argue, that that's really a great purpose of what talk radio can do. Yeah, I'm thinking of the greats, like Mark Hebscher, Baumacowen, you know, how they would handle the crazies was part of the entertainment. It was. It was. You know, if you get somebody who'd come on, you know, you just would learn how to handle that.

That was a skill that I learned from listening to the Oakley's of the world and the Markeptures and all of those people who knew how to do that and what I learned from doing it through through television. So I would, to me that, and maybe again, somebody would say, Lauren, all you're doing right now is solidifying my opinion of you as a, guy from an era long gone by you know you you that's not what if you if what you should be doing you should be thinking about uh getting into the world today get on social media let's start doing what you know like you know start interacting there that's where it's at it's not getting on radio

and going let's go to joe and scarborough nobody cares about what joe and scarborough has that's what I'm sure the pushback would be and saying you don't know what what it is. But if somebody were to say to me, Lord, I'd love to hear you on talk radio quote unquote because I'd love to hear what you have to say about things. I'd say, okay, well, sure, thanks. Obviously, as a host, you've got to have, again, do you have the credibility? Do you know, do you have the credentials? Do you have the credibility? If you have those two, that's good, but that doesn't mean you just have to listen to me or you You just have to listen to my guest or you just have to listen to my panel. If I have a panel on, if I did a panel mic, I'd want to go to the phones.

So what do you think? Do you think that, uh, you think Toronto Mike is right about that? Uh, or do you think his old buddy Mark Hepcher is right about it? What do you think? See, that's a radio program I'd listen to. But I hear you describe, like, you know, people may want to hear Lauren Honickman's take on the Jimmy Kimmel thing, for example, but I'm thinking, oh, that's a podcast. That's what I'm sitting here thinking.

I'm like, well, no, that's, that's, and I understand everything to you is a podcast. Because, because you,

you, to your credit, and this is, I don't, nothing disparaging about Toronto Mike with what you do. You've monetized your life and what you love doing

and good for you. And it's good on you. And I have tremendous amount of respect. I've talked about you, about you to people. But people who do podcast, As you will agree, there's so many out there. Are there tens of thousands?

Am I right about that right now? Oh, absolutely. Okay. And out of those tens of thousands, how many are monetized, how many are making money? I don't know if you have the figures. You may know those figures. But it's a difficult thing to do. And if somebody were to say, I'm going to have a podcast.

For me, when I did it with you, when we did judgment day, I didn't take I didn't stop doing judgment day with you might because I said oh I'm not making money oh look at that we do judgment day I got 51 views on that I was I had to stop it simply for because of my own scheduling and I just didn't have time for it I enjoy doing it but for me there are people out there that want to do a podcast or they you know there's a thousand podcasters and you go okay well why am I going to listen to this person so why is somebody going to listen to Hanuk Why is somebody going to listen? Well, I've already told you the answer, which is you have the unique blend of broadcaster skill and legal knowledge as a lawyer. I'm saying there's not tens of thousands of Lauren Honnickman's. And also views on YouTube, I would just point out

that that's a standalone completely separate from the podcast. Right, right. But I realize now that 40 minutes cut off, we were just getting started here because one thing I want to say in defensive radio that you talked about the ice storm, and I was thinking, oh my goodness, Should there be something happening where electricity is down, hydro is down, and you need live information, there's nothing else, it's radio.

Radio. You can get in your car or get a transistor radio, get some batteries in there. You can pull in a signal, a terrestrial radio signal, and get live information without requiring electricity, and that simply won't happen with a podcast. Yeah, and I did that for three days in a row during the ice storm. and but I didn't do it all day I did it at the morning I think I came in at eight and and left at noon so and then there was nothing on live after me but during those times that I came in it was incredible it was exactly what you just said Mike that's when radio shines it and and I and it to me it was like because I because I grew up in the world of breaking news

and and what that meant we called them hot shots breaking news I was on for example one time I was on AM 640, they didn't have a night show after 6 o'clock. Whoever show ended at 6 back then, I can't remember who I was sitting in for. There was nothing live that came on at 6. Like a re-roll or something. Do you remember there was a story? Do you remember a go train that got flooded? Yep.

Got flooded. We had a massive storm. The skies opened up at about 5 o'clock and a go-train was flooded and people were stranded on the track. And I convinced them to let me stay on and I did another couple of hours and We went live because for me, doing breaking news and going live was perfect. But listen to yourself, you had to convince them to let you go live, right? It should be the other way around, right?

Right. They should be trying to convince you. Can you stick around a couple of hours because we want to be live during this news event? Well, yeah, but the program director at the time was Gordon Harris, and he was like, to his credit, I just said, hey, let me do this. No problem. and away we go. He was a fan. I was lucky at the time when he was there.

He was the one that said, yeah, I think Lauren can do talk radio after I came out of TV and he gave me that opportunity. But yeah, so I remember doing it. But I love that. I mean, you know, breaking news, things are happening. You know, like.

Yeah, that's exciting. Yeah. That's exciting. Now, the current PD at 640 is Mike Bendixen. And I'm told, again, I'm not, I don't listen. I need to do what you do in. or whatever, but I don't listen, but I have been told that it has been veering a little further to the right in terms of the political spectrum and some of the ideas.

And I wondered if you, Lauren Honickman, we're going to be hosting the morning show today and you're driving in, I don't know, it was a chorus key, so you're driving to chorus key, not far from where TMLX 20 is, I'm going to talk about that in just a moment here, because that's a Jarvis and Queens key. But you're driving to chorus key and you're thinking about your take on Jimmy Kimmel, because this is going to be the hot-up topic for this morning's morning show. Are you thinking I need to align my take on Jimmy Kimmel with the political, the veering to the right that has been perceived by the station so that I align with the viewpoints?

Like, are you thinking, oh, I got to make sure I have a conservative viewpoint on this? Or is it going to be, I'm going to be Lauren Honickman, whatever I am? What you just said, if I ever, and not me, if anybody does what you just said, I got to veer to one direction. I got to slant it. Slant it, veer it. I'd be saying turn around and go home and get another job. Would you want the paycheck?

No, no, no. So then there's not a lot of jobs. No, but you can't. You can't. That, you see, do you understand what you just said is the biggest problem in news today? It is you just, what you just spoon fed me here right now is the biggest problem in news. Because what it is that if, if you start. with a bias. If you start with a bias, then you're going to play into the people who are listening

and that it's a phenomenon called confirmation bias. That's why social media has destroyed the news business, not the business, but the important part of getting news and information out because it doesn't happen. Because what we live in in this world, and I don't have to be on social media to know this because what it is Mike is that if I wake up today and use the Kimmel story as the example okay I wake up today and I have heard here's the fact the fact is Jimmy Kimmel said this that's an uncontroverted fact here's the second uncontroverted fact ABC did this they suspended him indefinitely for that's one fact fact two is this is what he said now the opinions come from the facts on the facts if i wake up and i hate jimmy kimball hated him i've hated him let's say throughout his his career hated everything

he said about trump wake up in the morning and go yes i just heard he got fired or canceled and i'm on social media, the only thing I'm going to be reading all day are the hundreds of article, whatever it is about Jimmy. And I'm going to read it. A study very recently came out and has shown that people on social media, when they go to stories, they'll go over 75%. We'll look at the headline and that's all they need. So if you're not a fan of this politician, whatever, and you got a headline that says it could be totally made up. You're moving my point though, right? Because what you have now is people listening to 640 are conservative-minded aligned to the right

and they will turn the station if you come on with some kind of, and I hate to use this term, but like a lefty spin on what's going down. But why do you need a spin? So if I was doing this, if I said, here's what I would do, because this is what I came from, maybe my show would be called down the middle. maybe that's what it would be because I would try to be the place that nobody ever is or can be and that is down the middle. And what station is this on, Lord? Yeah, exactly. Like, well, but, but if I was, that's a podcast. Well, sure, you know, I mean, there would be, you know, I mentioned earlier,

and the last time we were here about Steve Paken, you know, we were talking about, you know, I think he could do a show like that. I, if I did a show with him like that, People who have come from backgrounds, Austin, we talked about him earlier, where we were brought up having to ensure that whatever we were doing was news not view. You see, 24-hour news killed the news business in a lot of ways because you had to feed the beast. And the only way to feed the beast was to get views, not just news. So there's your news, there's your facts, here's your views on the news. but we grow up in a society where it's right, left, them, us, you know, like when you never more so than right now.

Right now. So today. Right. I mean, what was the, what was the thing that Jimmy Kimmel said as being interpreted when he talked about, you know that it's one of the magna guy? Oh, the right is saying that he was blaming the right instead of blaming the left because the left is what it really, I mean, that's the discussion. But for me, there's way more serious discussions about that where I would, if I was doing, I wouldn't be doing it from a right side, left side, conservative, liberal side.

People want to talk about freedom of expression, freedom of speech. People will say who are, who are very critical about what just happened to Jimmy Gimmel, they'll say, this is a kick in the gut of freedom of speech. This is, somebody could argue, I don't know if they would, I was thinking this myself, that Charlie Kirk himself, if, you know, if he saw what was happening here with people being fired for saying things, he'd be upset about it because if he was such a freedom of speech advocate. Okay, well, that's one part of it. But then there's the other part where somebody would say, well, whoa, whoa, wait a minute, wait a minute. Should entertainers, comedians, rock stars, uh, movie stars, Should they be involved in political discourse? Was it right for Bruce Springsteen during his tour in Europe over the summer

to talks at the beginning of his shows, as he did in some of his shows, about what was going on in America and what was happening? That's a different discussion. Was what Jimmy Kimmel actually said, now we don't want to shut up comedians. We want comedians to be able to be comedians. And politicians are the subject of comedic, Art, and it should be that.

But wait a minute, what did he actually say that supposedly got, he talked about the fact of it wasn't a joke. It was about that, you know, he said the maga people know that it was, he was one of them or something like that. Well, that wasn't a joke. Should he be doing it? There's a hundred discussions to have, Mike. You could do four hours of talk radio about the Jimmy Kimmel being suspended story. the facts, so as long as we have the fact, and you could do, you could, you could, you could break it up into a lot of areas without having to end those, let's say it was a three

hour show, somebody going, whoa, that was really right, or whoa, well, I didn't know he was woke. Whoa, man, that was, you could do it. And by the way, not only can you do it, I'm going to say this, you should do it. So if I was a program director, and I'd have no idea how to be one, by the way. But if I was a program director or if I was a host of a show and somebody said to me, okay, Lauren, listen, let's do this. We'll do it.

We've got guest A, B, C, and D. So we've got, we got somebody coming on from me. So we got to, you know, you know where we're slanting this, right? We're slanting this that, you know, and I'd say, why are we slanting it? so I would have to say if somebody were to hire me I would take it way back right to the beginning of the job interview and I'd say I'd love to do this with you

but you and I can never have this conversation hey Lauren good morning the slant today is but it's unspoken Lauren this it is not a there's no note there's no you're not going to find a smoking gun so it's a terrible analogy It is similar to when, I always bring this up, when Mike Wilner got suspended for being critical of, was it Cedogastin? I'm trying to remember now,

but he got suspended without pay, and they didn't tell him explicitly why, but he knew why, everyone else knew why, and it was essentially it put everybody in line, right? And one last thing on the Kimmel thing, because there's still a whole topic I want to get to. You're going to be here several hours, Lauren Honickman.

I hope you know that. But you can't even have the Jimmy Kimmel conversation without discussing political interference with the FCC. So the role of the FCC and, oh, what's his name again? Donald J. Trump. Like, essentially, that's the sun that these, these are all, they're all revolving around. So you've got the, the Trump influence via the FCC and then Disney, the Mickey Mouse himself, bending a knee and, well.

Okay, but, right. And there's a great, what you just did right now, if you and I were doing the show, in the way I described it. Which would have to be a podcast. So right now, we'd say, all right, we're into the third hour now, and we've been talking about the Jimmy Kimmel situation. Let's talk about this, Mike. Let's talk about the political influence,

because I know a lot of people out there think that this was all politically motivated and whatever. And I'll give you my take on it. You'll give me your take. We'll open the phone lines. We'll see what people think. but again what i don't care about the difference of opinion what i care about is the misinformation of facts so if somebody says to me right now well you know lorne you know like here's the fact this isn't an opinion lord jimmy kimmel was fired or suspended indefinitely because donald

trump put pressure on a bc to do so you know that that's a fact lord I'd say, no, I don't know that. If you want to tell me that, and now can you restate what you just said, but please, to be accurate, please say these words. You know, Lorne, in my opinion, I believe, in my opinion, I don't have proof of this, but I really feel that this was a political firing. I really, okay. Now, I may say, this is, oh, okay, thanks, whoever. This is my opinion. I do truly believe this was a 100% business decision.

This is a business decision by companies that own most of the affiliates of ABC. So they got lots of cash involved and they've heard the FCC and they work under regulation and they work under broadcast standards. And I know that somebody has filed a lawsuit against and we got a president that does a lot of litigious activity and he sues a lot of media companies and I got affiliates that are really, really afraid right now. Everything I just said to you right now is fact, fact, fact, fact, fact, fact, right? That's true. So, in my opinion, I think this was simply a business decision. I don't think that this was decided last night or two nights ago when Jimmy Kimmel said

this. I think this was the proverbial straw that broke the camels back. This was obviously in the mix or in my opinion it was that this could happen at any moment and they were waiting for perhaps that straw that that that final that final thing so that's an okay discussion to have Mike that's okay we can have that but if i if but but what i said earlier today what i said earlier or it seems earlier because we've been talking a long time um that somebody right now is going to tell me that they know exactly what happened and they're going to say 100% this is what it is and they're going to tell me

and they're going to tell me that as a fact. I'm going to say, okay, I don't worry about me because I'm not listening to you as the originator of the fact, but what I'm really worried about, are you going to put that on your social media because the 300,000 people that follow you, they're going to now treat it as a fact. And they won't even listen to you, though.

Just look at your headline. Misinformation is rampant online. Huge. If Facebook, Well, I want to say Facebook particularly. I just notice it every day on Facebook, but it is all social media, I suppose. Yeah, and it's, but it is social media.

And that's, and there, there is no regulation. Yeah. My law practice has consisted over the last 10 years of these types of discussions. I'm really sorry, I don't know how to get it down. No, I know, I know, I know it's, I know, I don't know. I don't know if the courts will give us an order. order to get it down. I don't know how to stop it right now. I don't know. Oh, no, I know he or she's hiding behind a cloak of anonymity. We have no idea who it is. Yeah, no, we may be able to get. I don't

know. I appreciate the fact that your business has been destroyed in the last 24 hours. I understand that. I don't know if I can help you. Those types of conversations over and over and over again. Somebody wakes up in the morning and says, you know what? I don't like business A. He's a competitor of mine. You know what I'm going to do? I'm going to go on my social media and I'm going to start talking about stuff about his business and I'll just make it up or whatever. Now, what I just said to you right there is a real life situation of a client that I had. I'll bet. So that's what we live in.

That's the world we live in. So the people at ABC dealing with Jimmy Kimmel, they live in the world of the FCC. They live in the world of standard and regulations that they have to worry about. People online don't. There's nobody. There's nothing there. They don't have to worry. So me now as the consumer of information, I want to now get information.

So I want to get information. It's the pandemic. I want to get information about vaccines. And I hate vaccines. And I hate the fact that the government is forcing us to take vaccines. So here we go. Now I can go through and get all, I can sit there for eight hours and read every anti-vaxxer in the universe. And all I have to do is, and I'll look at the headline.

And the headline will say, vaccines killing 20 million people a day in, And here, excellent. I'll like what, I'll tell me if I'm using the right social media words. I'll like it. Can I do that? You can do that. Okay, I'll like it. Go ahead, Lauren, like it.

This is back to your confirmation bias. And the sentence I say to my mom more than ever, my mom always tell me, I heard this. It'd be like, I love blueberries, okay? Big blueberry head here. I'm making this up. I'm going to be like, oh, blueberries are bad for you. They cause something. And I say the same sentence to her.

It's almost a daily occurrence. And I say, what's your source? for that. And then it's your you and your sources and I'm like everything as sources it'll be like

Billy Bob's pharmaceutical site.com and I'm like okay well okay let me know when the BBC runs a story about it or whatever

so this misinformation is essentially either people are lazy or intentionally ignorant like they're either it's intentional or it's uneducated

why is it that because we were taught this I was taught this in high school cite your sources and make sure sure your sources are legitimate and trustworthy with some journalistic integrity behind them. Exactly.

People don't do that. That's why this misinformation is rampant. You talked about the vaccines. And yes, somebody's good tell you. I think I heard Donald Trump say something. Somebody, there was a quote I read. He said, 300 million Americans or something where they get, there's only how many Americans are there, right?

So this is a ridiculous number he's tossing around of no scientific basis. But he's a bad source of everything, by the way. So he had put him in the column of don't trust your sources. But yeah, we have to almost re-educate our. society to understand what's to start but then you get into trouble oh i heard from people i know and trust that this new israel there was some news about israel and gaza okay so we're not we don't time to go down this road except to say i had read uh some pieces and very reputable about very reputable journalists and very reputable in this person i know in and like told me they're lying

so so essentially if you say this happened it was reported in bbc and cbc and c tv and it was reported and you so York Times and you run down Washington Post, well, they're lying. So we're in an era now where even if you're citing what I deem to be reputable sources, they're telling you, no, those are not good sources. Right. But then they'll cite stuff that I wouldn't let my kids use in an essay. Right. So we can't agree on what's true anymore. So how can we have a conversation when we can no longer agree on the facts? Because you have to establish the facts before you can chat about it. That's what I just said. That's in fair comment is a defense in Canadian. law what is fair comment it's opinion on provable facts you have to and you what you just gave as

the example you named what you called the sources and there'll be people will say no look at what your sources are mike your sources are mainstream media if it was here in canada go well who's what's your source Toronto Star uh globe and mail don't though don't they get subsidies from the from the liberal government okay I mean are you going to believe that what's so so what can you do? And that's the problem. And what, you know what happens? You know what the answer is to what you just said? The answer is people throw up their hands and go, well, whatever. We can't talk about this because we can't agree on the facts. So people will say, same thing about freedom of expression and they'll say, well, that's okay. It's okay for them to say that, but somebody else,

oh, that's hate speech. Oh, wait a minute. Oh, that's hate, what, what's freedom of expression? What's hate speech? Where's the line? Who draws the line? Where's the line drawn? Well, we try to do it here in Canada. We do have some laws that talk about what a heat crime is or whatever. But, but at the end of the day, at the end of the day, people will say, oh, that, you know, and they'll use the words cancel, right? Those, well, you know, oh, he said that. Oh, why did he say, that, that's that's all. That's terrible. That's okay. This person said, that's fine. But wait a minute, but is that a, so, so what do I do? Well, I'm talking about the conundrum and, and it is frustrates the hell out of me. This is the only thing I do, Mike, to try and because I am a news junkie, and I have

to be able to try and get it. So I'll try and source things. I'll try and look things and read whatever I can read. And then I have to make my determination. I have to say, okay, so how was that reported? Was that reported in a way that credibility, credentials? I came back to it all again. Who's telling me this? And what am I, you know, how do I determine? And there's so many times we don't know this. We don't have time to get into it at all. But we saw, if I had come on after our election, I mean, when I saw the political reporting and the political reporting that goes on now, Mike, forget about the political reporting. Have you ever sat and watched the legislature in Ottawa? Have you ever watched question period? Nope. I'm going to, in a moment, I'm going to tell you

I watch some from this week online on YouTube. Okay. Anybody who watches that, if you've never watched, you'll come out of it, you'll go, what did I just see? Wait, minute the opposition asks this question it's a yes or no answer and the prime minister doesn't give any answer and the what and and that's what happens in parliament what happens in that little dome in there called the legislature or or wherever it's it's you do you do you say oh that's democracy in action no it's it's it's people are spinning things you don't answer the question you make sure your message gets out so if i'm one of the people behind the seat for a politician whether it's the prime minister or a minister we write out we go okay here's our

messages today okay so when polyev says to you polyev's going to get up he's going to talk about the fact that we came in we said we're going to get a deal with trump uh we told everybody we're going to get the deal we told everybody elbows up we're going into it we're the only ones that can really fight it we stopped him talking about the 51st day blah blah blah blah that polyev's going to bring up the fact that you've done nothing there's no doubt deal whatever we don't care remember we have we don't care anything about what he says all we care about is here message this this is what we did in the last six months we did a b c d and he so it doesn't matter what he asked this is what you say got it yeah ready break it's like it's like a court it's like

a football huddle and that's what happens yeah and and and how does that help in my day there he goes again here's the old man talking about in his day but in my day what would happen If I was covering Queens Park and that type of thing would happen because it's not a new phenomenon that's what happens in political forums somebody comes out

there's a big scandal whatever it is we had scrums the premier or the province would come out and there'd be microphones in his face and questions are being fired back and forth because you don't have the protection anymore. It's a pillar of democracy

in action there. We don't see that now I don't know. By the way, if there's scrums, quote unquote, the microphones are all set up. Everything's very, you know, there's no. And people will say, oh, well, that was just theater. No. That was, that was democracy. Right. And so anyway, that. So, Lauren, because I do want to get back to subdivisions. So. Yeah, I think that would be a good wrap up for us right now. So I, but I do, what happened earlier this week, this happens, where I was, somebody sent me an angry note. and just said that, oh, I can't believe it. In Parliament right now, all MPs,

even the liberal MPs, were cheering for Charlie Kirk. This is the note I got, right? And they were like, you got to write an email to your MP, right? So a little backstory is my MP is a guy named James Maloney. I quite like him. He's a liberal MP. He was actually on Toronto Mike last week. We talked about Ken Dryden.

He was on with Steve Paken and Bruce Dobigin. You should listen to this episode, this tribute to. So I'm very friendly. Like, I can get James Maloney on the phone right now. We become buddies here. But I said, no, I need to, like, I need to see this. Like, I can't, you know, I've been told I'm being enraged by this celebration of Charlie

Kirk and our parliament in Ottawa. So I watched it and I took it in the context of what it was and I realized, oh, a conservative MP was talking about how even if you disagree of someone, violence isn't the answer. Basically, when you actually listen to what was being cheered, and you take it in the context as it unfolded in parliament, my rage level plummeted and I wasn't angry about this and it wasn't what I was kind of led to believe it was. And I did not write the email to my MP.

But this is an example. Because you went and looked and saw yourself. I think most people would skip that step of actually what exactly really happened. And they're like, I can't fucking believe they're standing in parliament. Everybody, Mark Carney, everybody is standing in parliament to celebrate the life of Charlie Kirk. That's not actually what happened. Right.

But that's just a recent example. And we're going to move on. What a perfect example to use about why misinformation is so harmful and destructive. And it and why we live in where we are now. And it's it's all polarization, Mike. 100%. It's, it's become left versus right. And I want to have conversations.

Us versus them. Yep. I want to have conversations on. And some people I get, know, why do you talk to Bruce Dobe again? I get these notes because he's a Trumper and he's got some conservatives in Calgary. He's been indoctrinated. He's been indoctrinated. He's become very conservative.

But I want to be able to have civil, respectful conversations with people. Where I lose my patience and become frustrated is when I realize, oh, we can't agree on the facts. This happened with Elon Musk. Elon Musk, and I hope I pronounce it, Zieg Hitler. What is the term? Hayle, say, and say it. Okay. How do you pronounce that one?

Heil Hitler. Okay, yes. So I think I was, my Germans rusty. Okay. But I watched him in video throw up two of those in a row. And I felt like I knew what I was watching. And you would talk to somebody like a Bruce Dobegan who would tell you, oh, he's just waving high.

And then I said to Bruce, and this was on Toronto Mike, they said, okay, you do it now. He won't do it. Like, so he won't mimic the Elon Musk. And that, by the way, that's, and that's a long story. short why you won't find any posts for me on the app formerly known as where okay we're going to move on now i do you know i got it because i'm looking at the time okay well you've been verbose my brother now listen yeah i have to do this i have to tell you that next thursday we're all collecting at the g lb brew pub at jarvis and queens key because great lakes

is going to host us and we'll get a free beer and we'll get some tasty food so that's happening that's tmlx 20 but lorne i want to tell you about tmlx 21 really quick here which is we're all going to meet, and you're invited, Lauren, I'd love to see you there. November 29th at noon. This is a Saturday, the last Saturday of November. We're all collecting at Palma's Kitchen. I know you've been there before. It would be amazing if you showed up, jumped on the mic to say hi to everybody. Palma pasta is going to feed us, and of course, great legs. Let me put it in my calendar now. Okay. November 29, noon, Palma's Kitchen. Got it. And I want to quickly tell the listenership that recycle my electronics.ca is where you go if you have old electronics or old cables.

Don't throw it in the garbage because the chemicals end up in our landfill. Go to recycle my electronics.ca. I want to tell any FOTMs who are trying to create dynamic, creative work environments for their employees or for their colleagues. Talk to Doug Mills at Blue Sky Agency. Talk to him about silence, quiet, comfortable, and customizable office pods. Doug is Doug at blueskyagency.ca. Just have a conversation with the lovely Doug Mills. And I will have a conversation soon with the good people.

at Waterfront BIA that's coming next week. And as always, shout out to Ridley Funeral Home. We talked about them when you were here for 40 minutes because you're shouting out Benjamin's, it sounds like. But I shout out Ridley Funeral Home. I have, I gave you lasagna last time. You know, I have beer for you. I've got gifts for you.

I have to ask you if you listened to the Toronto Mic episode with Jack Berkovitz. I did. I did. What did you think of Jack? I liked it. I thought it was great. I thought it was great.

and what an interesting life he's led. And, and it was, it was actually pretty informative because, you know, Jack was one of the guys. I never knew them, but, you know, when you listen to ads and you listen to the owner of the place. Omni jewel crafters. And, you know, you just knew it. And, and you realized how much money he probably was spending and what he told you was spending on, on his marketing. And so it was, it was. really interesting. Anyone who's interesting to hear about his

radio career and how he was dumped in all the places that he went. 10, 10, 640 and 960. All said goodbye to Jack. I'll say goodbye. So I, no, I did. I actually, he's a big Lorne fan. Is he? Well, I heard a, I heard a little shot out there. Yeah. He said he was a big fan of yours. He thought I was, I didn't he think I was like living in London, Ontario? Okay, so that's what I want to ask you about. He thought you were practicing law out of London, Ontario. And I said, no, that's not true. Can you give us an update on your professional life because there's an update there, right?

There is an update. Yes, this just in. Lauren Honickman has joined his son Asher Honickman. Asher is a lawyer and he's got his own law firm, very small law firm and he and I talk for quite some time about about his old man coming over and working with him. And I'd always say, Asher, you don't need me. You've done the end. It's not about need and we can work together. So we're doing it.

So I sort of carve down my practice. I left Brody Thorning and had a great, great run there, and I'm with Ashtra now. So I, the only thing that seems to be a tiny bit counterintuitive, I've been there about six weeks, six of seven weeks, is I'm working so far just as hard with not as much help. So that's, but, but other than that, yeah, but we're going to, we're going to do stuff together. So it's, it's, it's kind of fun. And that's why I'm keeping an eye on the. clock because I know my boss is. Yeah, we're going to shut this down in two minutes here.

So there's a professional update. You were never practicing out of London, Ontario. No, there you go. Who knows where Jack? That's misinformation. Okay. Peter Gross, there's no information with this man. He will definitely be at Palmis Kitchen for Tim Olegs 21. Everyone, if I wasn't clear, everyone's invited, not just Lauren and Peter. I want everybody you can hear my voice right now to come to Palmis Kitchen on November 29 at noon. But Peter Gross tells me he's going to visit very soon for a special, feature about a very special man who is a cameraman that you worked with. Tell us about, just in a nutshell, do you know what Peter's working on?

Do you want me to tell you? Yeah, tease it, yeah. Okay. So you've probably heard me talk about Bill of Tannisoff. And you, you asked earlier about Al McCormick. So the two cameramen that I worked with that started work with, Al McCormick, Bill of Tannisoff, and Bill and Al are very close friends as well. And those of you who may not know, Bill was in a tragic accident.

he got hit by a car covering a story and it's going to be coming up on november 10th i believe it is 15 years since this happened bill became a quadriplegic and a blind quadriplegic but bill is this incredible incredible person i i've been involved in his life since then even before we were good friends of course and um and peter and all of us people who worked with bill and have followed his story and what Peter's doing and Peter told me about this and I thought wow he goes I'm putting together a little feature on bill I'm interviewing a lot of people and I'm going to come on Toronto Mike and we're going to talk about it and I'm going to throw to the clips and come out of it and I'm talking to you I'm talking to Jim McKinney I'm talking to Al I'm talking to his sister

I'm talking to Bill and he interviewed Bill and Bill people are going to be able to hear Bill because one of the most incredible things about Bill and you'll hear me say this is a man who is a quadriplegic a man who is blind who was a cameraman he was a tennis player

he lived an incredible life never have you heard this person feel sorry for himself in any which way possible. Always appreciative. And you're going to get to hear, I hope. And Peter said, this is what Peter just told me. I just spoke to him a couple of days ago. And he said, I got great stuff from Bill.

Wow. So that's coming up. I can't believe I get to host this thing. No, you are. I have it in my calendar for the 29th of September. I strongly urge. And I know people are saying, oh, God, you know, Mike got Honickman to promote this. No, no, no.

everybody, I really hope that people will listen to this. It's just a story of one person, just one person. A lot of people say, well, you know, Bill Latanasoff, who was a cameraman and said, okay, all right, like, but the reason you'll listen to it is because it's like anything, the life of a person. And when you hear his story and you hear and you hear what people are saying about it, I think you're going to really, really enjoy it. And, look, and Peter, to his credit, put this together.

He's great at that. And he's great at that. And he was great at it in his day, quote unquote. So I'm looking forward to it. And I hope everybody tunes in and comes on at some point. You know what I'm looking forward to? I'm looking forward to listening to your podcast about Bob Dylan. Well, we didn't even talk about Bobby Dill.

So that's going to be, you know, I just thought to myself, geez, we covered everything, but we didn't cover, we didn't talk about. Well, we're doing it right now. You teased me multiple times. You know, I don't like to be teased. I know, I know. You know what, okay, let's keep it in the tease category. Let's you and I talk.

I'm going to talk behind the scenes with you, Mike, and we'll talk about, because I think that what happened when that movie came out with Timothy Shalamee and people who knew nothing about Bob Dylan went, whoa, whoa. I think that it might be a really fun thing to do and get people to listen to this man. It'll be fun for sure, but you know you're Dylan, and again, you're the combination of broadcaster lawyer and Dylan aficionado. Like, that's a very rare blend, and you'd be perfect for this.

Rare. Nobody else. So let's upgrade it from T's to a commitment. Oh, no, you see, look what he's doing. Look at what he's doing, everybody. He's a lawyer. No, no, no. He's always a promoter.

Toronto, Mike, one of the best. I learned from Jack. One of the best, if not the best. And deservedly so. Thanks for having me on, Mike. And let's talk again soon. You realize if you combine the times of your 40 minutes and then this episode, so this episode is about an hour 40.

You did 40 before. So that's how long we talked over the last couple of weeks. I loved it. Thanks for doing this, Lauren. My pleasure. You're a good man. we will definitely talk soon about Dylan on your podcast. And that!

And that! Stu Stone wants me to really go hard on it, okay? And, you know, you said I'm a showman, so I'm going to do them one more time. And that brings us to the end of our 1,764th show. Go to Toronto Mike.com for all your Toronto Mike needs. Much love to all who made this possible. That's patrons like you. to patreon.com slash Toronto

Mike and become a member today. Great Lakes Brewery. They're hosting us for TMLX20 next Thursday. Palma Pasta. They're hosting us for TMLX21 on November 29th at noon at Palmer's Kitchen. Toronto's Waterfront, BIA. They'll be here next week.

Recycle MyElectronics.C.A. Blue Sky Agency, write Doug, will you? And Ridley Funeral Home, subscribe to Life's Undertaking, Brad Jones has an excellent podcast you should listen to. See you all tomorrow when I'm catching up with Ben Rayner, formerly of the Toronto Star. He's having some tough times.

We're going to talk about it tomorrow. Ben Rayner, back on Toronto Mike. See you then. We're going to be able to be. I'm going to be able to be. Thank you.