Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Lowest of the Low Return: Toronto Mike'd #398

Episode Date: November 13, 2018

Lowest of the Low return to discuss Shakespeare My Box and the Canadian music industry before playing live and kicking out the Cancon jams.

... See you later. Wait, is that the intro to the episode now? We just did it. I'll tell you why. I'll tell you why. What up, Mike? Toronto! VK on the beat, uh, check, uh I'm in Toronto where you wanna get the city love I'm from Toronto where you wanna get the city love I'm a Toronto Mike, you wanna get the city love

My city love me back, for my city love Welcome to episode 398 of Toronto Mike, a weekly podcast about anything and everything. Proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, Propertyinthe6.com, ATM Canada, Census Design and Build, and our newest sponsors, Palma Pasta and Fast Time Watch and Jewelry Repair. pasta and fast time watch jewelry repair i'm mike from toronto mike.com and joining me is ron hawkins and lawrence nichols from lowest of the low welcome back guys hey how are you doing how you doing mike thanks for having us back yeah pleasure is all mine and i mean that for once you know we all say that but this is the truth. This is amazing that you took some time

to visit me here. How are things going? How are things doing? Currently I am loving what you've done with the place. It's all been nicely renovated down here and nicely painted. The home listeners can't see it but they can sense it.

They can sense it. I've got to thank listener Chris Brown, who, Chris Brown, not the Chris Brown, and not the other Chris. There's two. So there's the guy you know, and then there's the guy who beat up Rihanna or whatever. And then there's the Chris Brown painter,

chrisbrownpainter.com. And he was like a big fan of the show. And he's like, he heard me at some point, I mentioned to Jeff Woods of all people, because Jeff Woods paints houses in like Thornbury, Ontario. ontario anyway i said i need to get some painting done here chris is like i'll paint your studio for free and he did such a good job i hired him i think maybe that was his plan all along i hired him to do the main floor so chris did a good job lost leader yeah i think i got played now he's like uh yeah i got played and he's been here for six months. Well, he was there a while.

Moe Bird came over when he was here. What did he do? I got Moe to help fix the floor. Oh, wow. You actually did do something. No, I didn't. But Moe's from Edmonton. My wife's from Edmonton,

so I have nothing but great things to say about Edmontonians. So I just want to put that out there. Sure. But thanks, guys, for coming. I want to say hi to Andrew Stokely, who's listening, because Andrew Stokely was all set to come join us. He wanted to, like, sit on the stairs there and watch the show, but we changed the date on him. We did. That's right.

But, you know, that's okay. So Andrew has to work. I think he's doing some curling, Matt. She's doing audio for him. But he says hello. Hey, Andrew. Hey, Andrew. And it worked.

See, I think he's been played too. I think everyone's getting grifted or whatever. Oh, it'll happen. It'll happen with Andrew. Life is a grift, man. Life is a grift. If you want to hear the first deep dive with ron hawkins go to episode 175 uh here's the description mike chats with lowest of the low lead singer and songwriter

ron hawkins about shakespeare my butt success for which you're unprepared i wrote that awkwardly but you know what i mean gore downey the The Perfect Marriage of Peace and Quiet and Tim Thompson's Maple Leafs Montage and much, much more. So that was the first Ron Hawkins episode. Right. So strike those from the card today. Yeah, I don't want to hear anything about Peace and Quiet and Tim Thompson.

Now episode, this is when you both came over, episode 264. Mike and Lois of the Low play and discuss their 10 favorite songs of all time. And then you guys also performed live, and we got

to hear an unreleased, re-recorded version of Rosie and Gray, which was very cool. We had an exclusive there. And then I think I shit all over it by saying I can't. The intro wasn't long enough. It wasn't at all suitable for you, I guess. But it was beautiful.

There was some blowback. You guys tried to do a nice thing. And then we never released it. I noticed that. I have great influence in these sessions. We'll call these the basement sessions. And we're all the way at, that was 264 and you're at 398 now.

You keep busy. I kicked it up a notch. I'm glad someone noticed. Yeah. I used to, I still say in the intro, I call it a weekly podcast. And in the extra,

I'm like, I always say, see you next week. But I mean, Tom Wilson's coming over on Thursday. I recorded yesterday. So like I'm doing like three episodes a week and still calling it a weekly podcast.

Born on third, calling it a triple. That's right. That's right. Thought he hit a triple. Yeah, I said, I heard, that's a common phrase, but I liked it in Bush Leaguer by Pearl Jam. I think Ed Vedder drops that about George W. Bush. You call him Ed Vedder? Ed? Didn't he want to change it to Ed? I haven't touched his face in a while.

He was Eddie when I left him. I just assumed you singer-songwriter types had like a secret channel or something. Like every 15 years you have to... Will he be Edward Vedder? That's right. Edward J. Vedder? The third.

It's like when Joey Bell became Albert Bell. Does anyone remember that? No. The baseball player Joey Bell one day, I don't know, he decided he was, he wanted to be Albert Bell

and we all had to start calling, you know, you got to call someone what they want to be called, right? Like, if Ron decides his name is from now on

he's Richard Hawkins or whatever, we got to comply. It's like... Not necessarily. We had a bass player in the Rusty Neals whose government name is Michael Kaler and he decided ever we gotta comply it's like not necessarily we had a bass player in the rusty nails uh whose

government name is michael kaler and uh he decided you know at 15 or whatever to change his name to blitz because he was a little punk rock kid and he was blitz for most of his adult life and in most of the bands we were in and then at some point in mid tour he decided that he wanted to be called michael again and uh we said no you're blitz it's far too late for that. Too late, buddy. You're Blitz. Any old-time Blue Jay fans? Remember Manny Lee? Manny Lee?

And then he decided he was Manuel Lee? But that's not... That's close. Less of a stretch. It's not like Blitz. From Joey to Albert. Joey to Albert. Dickie, I'm Richard.

That's right. Ed to Eddie is the same kind of deal. So, okay. So that was episode 264 and yeah I have the episode 400 coming up on the weekend I'm going to put it together and I think less than a year ago I feel I put together episode 300

so it's been pretty prolific here but I have some kind of neat thing to share here so I got a note from Stephanie Wilkinson who wanted to tell me about her friend Greg. And Greg is married to a woman named Christina. So if you're following along at home, Greg and Christina just celebrated their 20th wedding anniversary. And I was chatting via email with Greg yesterday because Greg wanted to share some audio. I'm going to play the audio, and then we're just going to share the story here. Subversives. There's something subversive

About you and me There's a market value on love We're getting something for free I don't know why But when we're apart Something makes me want to start Setting fires and kicking down doors I hope we never have to resort

To dividing what is mine and what is yours So this is Greg and Christina's wedding song. And they had an anniversary, and I guess they got a letter to you, Ron, and they asked you to put together a video, and they just wanted me to thank you again. Apparently you made their, I would say you made their day, but I think you made their lives with this, with this gesture. They're very happy with what you did.

They're welcome. There was no video component on my end. There was an happy with what you did. They're welcome. There was no video component on my end. There was an audio component on my end. Oh, see, I got an MP4 file and I converted it without even listening. I converted it to MP3 and I just assumed there was video, but it was all just audio, I suppose. Because it was a massive file. And I said, okay, well, I'm not sticking that in the soundboard

until I compress that thing. But so, thank you from... It was a big hit with Christina. Oh, here, Christina. This is Ron Hawkins. Your very, very romantic husband, Greg, wanted to send you a message for your anniversary, so he decided to send a singing telegram.

And I am the delivery boy of that singing telegram. So this is a song for you guys on your 27th anniversary. Maybe it was the 27th anniversary, but so there. I wanted to open with that because that was a sweet thing you did there. I'm a sweet guy. Apparently.

On occasion. It was very nice. There was some very cathedral-like reverb there. Where were you? In a cathedral. Yeah. And this jam I heard for the first time a couple of days ago.

piano plays Lazy days, lie to die. Take my pain, but don't waste my time. Cause folks are born, and then they die. We're prisoners of their own design The pageants and plans A new shackled man Is cast away Immune to the bliss

The sweet tender kiss Tell us what we're listening to. We went into the studio to record a couple new songs for the bonus vinyl. There's a piece of bonus vinyl in our Shakespeare in my box set. So we wanted to make sure that we didn't just catalog what we'd already done, but that we threw in some new stuff, as we are wont to do. So there's a bonus vinyl, and this is one of two of the brand new songs. Shakespeare in my box. Now I need to Know More.

Okay, so. I haven't heard this song in headphones yet before. It sounds really good. I only listen in headphones. You only listen in headphones. Okay. I've got to get some headphones.

I've got to get some headphones. The piano and organ is performed by Mike Bogusky from Blue Rodeo. It just sounds amazing. No, amazing. The lowest of the low Twitter account,

I guess, shared it, I don't know, was that yesterday or a couple days ago? It was recent. No, amazing. The lowest of the low Twitter account, I guess, shared it, I don't know, was that yesterday or a couple of days ago? It was recent. Recently, yeah. A few days ago, yeah. And I liked it right away. I thought it was great, shared it. The cool thing about the vibe here, too,

now that I'm hearing it in headphones as well right now, is we recorded it pretty much off the floor. There was some vocal and guitar overdubs, but like that piano, grand piano that you're hearing, the mic is sitting right beside the drums. So drums are bleeding into the piano mics, pianos are bleeding into the drum mics. Now...

Yeah, I know, it sounds great. And I often kick out the jams of people. So we're actually, I should tell people, we have kicked out the jams, but today we're going to kick out, how do I say this? We're going to kick out the CanCon jams. Can. So we're actually, I should tell people, we have kicked out the jams, but today we're going to kick out, how do I say this? We're going to kick out the CanCon jams.

Can I call it that? Sure. Sure. So we're going to kick out the jams, but it's not your 10 favorite songs of all time necessarily, which you've already done. It's 10 favorite CanCon jams,

and we'll talk about that, which I'm totally psyched about. You're also going to play something shortly, but I have more questions, die which I'm totally psyched about you're also you're also going to play something yes uh shortly but uh I have more questions so I need to know more about this uh Shakespeare my box I need to know details well earlier this year we signed a deal with uh Warner Music Canada which is the first time we've ever signed with a record, big record

label, I guess. And it was a two album commitment, I guess. So we arranged to make the first album, basically all the existing albums. They're all being put together in a box. Some of them have never come out on vinyl before. So for the first time, Hallucigenia will be out on vinyl. It's a lovely double gatefold thing. Sorted Fiction is on vinyl for the first time and you of course also get Shakespeare in My Butt and Do The Right Now from last year and then there is a new bonus disc with like 12, 14 songs

on it. Some live songs, a few remixed songs, and then collected a few. And this one, right? Lazy Days. Yep, Lazy Days is on there. Another new one, which is an outtake from the Shakespeare My Butt era, which we recorded, called Hole in the Ground, that we recorded at Union Sound the same day we did

Lazy Days there. And for any USS fans, there's a remix. Human Kebab from USS did a remix of one of our tunes. So there's some little treats in there. And for any USS fans, there's a remix. Human Kebab from USS did a remix of one of our tunes. So there's some little treats in there. There's some live stuff. There's some remixes of our own. That guy's nuts,

that Human Kebab. He's a bit crazy. In all the good ways, yes. And the other guy in that band who's actually done the show, Ashley Boo Schultz, also not nuts, but like an interesting thinker.

Just even a conversation with him is very like the synapses are kind of firing at all times and it makes for like a very interesting discussion. Does he write all the lyrics in the band? I think so. And they just had like a 10th anniversary party. I went to it actually

and that was pretty cool. Well, we played a show with them in Ottawa. Was it last summer? Like last summer of 2017? Yeah. Summer of 2017, we met those guys for the first time, and they were amazing. Like, they really tear it up out there.

And I guess one of them just said, my sister made out with one of you back in the day. I can't remember. I can't remember. Oh, boy. I can't remember. Oh, really? Oh, boy. I can't remember which one. That doesn't narrow it down much, probably. You said your sister made out with all of us back in the day.

You know, now I think, I mean, you guys could use a little DJ in the mix, lowest of the low. You know, maybe this will introduce you to... Well, you'll hear the results if you get the box set. All right, so people who want to get the box set, I mean, a lot of people listening to us right now are fans of Shakespeare, my butt, if they want the box set.

And the funny thing is, we all listen, let's say you're in college or high school and you're in love with Shakespeare, my butt. Now we're at a point when we can afford something like a box set because now we're all old enough with money flying around too.

And the most potent drug, and Ron might not even, I don't know if you'd like to hear this or not, but it's a fact, the most potent drug is nostalgia. And if you could listen to a song and be back in university, it's kind of priceless.

Unfortunately, nostalgia is cut with fentanyl these days, so it can kill you if you're not careful. That's a good point. I agree with you. We say that every time we make any record, is that we kind of carry this golden albatross around called Shakespeare in my butt, because it's sort of, you know,

of course we're blessed, and it's amazing to ever have a record that looms large in your catalog like that, but at the same time, you then have to live up to it constantly. It's a fantastic problem to have. Well, it's because your last album, Do The Right Now,

was a great album. Fantastic. And there's cuts on that. I mean, Power Lines, did I get the right name there? But there are cuts on there that would fit right in on mainstream rock radio station or whatever your current station.

Theoretically. Theoretically. Later we're going to talk a little bit about the business before we kick out. Before you play and then we kick out the jams. But yeah, man, when I talked to my buddies and I was talking about, I said it's a lower dropping buy. And first of all, that

excites them. But then I get to say this is the move I'm doing now. Like, oh, they're dropping by. Oh, yeah, for the third time. I go for the third time. And then I say, I'm going to play a song from Shakespeare, my butt in my basement.

And then I even just tweeted this. You'll see it on Twitter. I know Ron's not on Twitter. You're still holding out. But Lawrence, you'll see it later. But I tweeted like a letter to 1991 Mike. I just wanted to let him know

that 2018 Mike wrote a letter to 1991 Mike to let him know Los Alor are going to drop by and then let him know his oldest has a hockey game at 6 o'clock and the Leafs still haven't won the Stanley Cup. Did he write back? I'm waiting. I haven't checked in my Twitter. He doesn't return your...

Where am I going with that? Except to say that as recently as like three episodes ago, Rachel Brady, who writes for the Globe and Mail, I asked her what her favorite song of all time was because we were going to just play the one song, not 10 songs, but one. And she said, Bleed a Little Wild Tonight. And we played it.

That was like three episodes ago. And that's a recurring theme. Sarah Boesveld, there's been a number of people come in. What is your favorite song of all time? It's from Shakespeare, My Butt. Next time you got to get Sarah to come in and sing her favorite song too. Well, I had her sing. She's quite the singer. Yeah, from Shakespeare, My Butt. Next time you've got to get Sarah to come in and sing her favorite song, too. I had her sing. She's quite the singer.

She just had a baby. She can still sing. She can do a duet or whatever. Not that that would stop her from coming in or whatever. But yeah, she's a great singer. You're right. And she sang on to some Bob Seger on that episode. Oh, my God.

I hope the baby was okay. Actually, I don't know. I hope the baby was okay. Actually, I don't know. I did the math. It might have been, she might have conceived that night. Like that might have, I might have played a role somehow

because if you reverse the math, it's like nine months before this baby pops. You're saying so many things I don't like right now. I will move on from that. Except to say, one thing I want to say is thank you.

I actually want to say thank you and I don't know if I've said this the last couple of times you've been over, but is thank you. I actually want to say thank you. And I don't know if I've said this the last couple of times you've been over, but like, thank you for creating art that brings me back to being a teenager. Like it's something magical about that. Like it's almost like you've invented a time machine.

I have invented a time machine, but that's not what we're here for to talk about. That's 425 episode 425. Well, no, I mean, that's, that's the thing.

I was just talking about this the other day, about how one amazing thing about being a 54-year-old man in a band is that I have access to 16-year-old me. I don't have to even send letters. I can just yell across the hall from my dorm room to his dorm room. I can get in touch with that. And I was talking about just this go-, this go around with lowest to the low, like just spray painting my clothes

like I did when I was 16, making lowest to the low shirts, you know? Like, as I said, you know, either that's incredibly embarrassing and sad or it's amazing. No, it's punk. Yeah, well, it's punk. But I mean, the idea that I can be 54 years old

and this can be my vocation and then I can still get excited about that means to me, like, you know, I keep quoting this quote that I think is Bob Dylan or it might be from the Bible, but he was not busy being born,

he was busy dying, right? And I totally adhere to that, that you're either moving forward and you're excited about life and what it has to offer or you're basically on your way out, you're decaying, right? I think that's actually Morgan Freeman

from the Shawshank Redemption. I think that was co-opted by Red, yeah, Morgan Freeman in the Shawshank Redemption. I think that was co-opted by Red, yeah, Morgan Freeman in the Shawshank Redemption. It's like, get busy living or get busy dying. And then as he followed up

with like, God damn right or something like that, some Morgan Freeman thing. It's been a while, but it sounds like St. Matthew really. Get busy living

or get busy dying. Yeah, that's a great, great quote. But let me do a little business here so that we can talk about the business of music in this country and then you guys can play something and then we can kick out the gems.

So in front of you, there is a beer. You each get a six-pack of beer from Great Lakes Brewery. Clap up. Hold your hands. Hold your palms. Thank you. Fresh craft beer. And Ron, you don't actually drink, right?

I might apply that six-pack directly to my six-pack. You have a six-pack? I'm jealous. Is that what he's saying? He's got a six-pack? I think that's what he's saying. I implied it. I've never had a six-pack.

Wait, the lights are lighting up on the phone. Testimonials. That's right. That's right. That's right. My 60, I have a almost 17-year-old. He wanted, he said,

I want weights and he wants to get bigger. And one of the things he wants and he's changed his diet and everything but he wants six-pack. This is, what's a six-pack?

And it, I mean, I told him, I think it's my wife who always says six-packs are made in the kitchen. That means your diet has, if you really do want the six-pack, your diet, it gets so boring and unfun, you know what I mean?

But it's a real commitment. But that's something. I don't have the discipline to suddenly... I don't have the discipline to care about that statement. I just have nothing to contribute. Okay. I will smile and nod at this. Sure.

So the six pack of beer, Great Lakes Brewery. Thank you, Great Lakes Brewery. That's lovely. Thank you. And they're a fiercely independent craft brewery located here in Etobicoke. And as you know, 99.9% of all Great Lakes beer remains here in Ontario. GLB, brewed for you, Ontario.

And I have a little Italian music. I got to remember to play it because it just adds for the moment. I just want to make it a little more authentic here. But there is some Palma's kitchen from Palma Pasta.

There's lasagna. This is frozen lasagna. What is going on here? It's amazing. This is going to be great for my six-pack. I was going to say, the beer and the lasagna might not assist. Yeah, really. Oh, that's wonderful.

You mean this entire thing is filled with lasagna? You'll see what I mean. You know what I mean like that's a hefty lasagna it's a massive so it's frozen now oh man

wow you gotta let it thaw in the fridge refrigerator you don't thaw in a freezer but you thaw in the refrigerator for like 24 hours and then you pop it

in the oven I think it's like 350 and then you do it for 45 to 60 minutes I just had one the other day and everyone

my family, everybody just loves the Palmas lasagna. Oh, that's wonderful. Thank you. When you're finished doing it for 45 to 60 minutes, you can eat your lasagna. Palmas Pasta has four locations in Mississauga and Oakville, but I'm most excited about Palmas Kitchen. That's the new location,

not too far from Mavis and Burnhamthorpe. If you go to palmapasta.com, you can find out exactly where it's at. But they got fresh food, hot fresh food, a retail store. They got, you know, seating. They got coffee. Everything's there.

So discover Mississauga's best fresh pasta and Italian food. I'm not even finished my Shakespeare in my box questions, but Brian's got a question for you that will tie in nicely with this. So let's hear from Brian. Propertyinthe6.com Hi, Ron and Lawrence.

Brian Gerstein here. Sales representative with PSR Brokerage and proud sponsor of Toronto Mic'd. You can call or text me at 416-873-0292 if you are planning to buy and or sell in the next six months. Guys, there's no better ending to Mike's podcast than Rosie and Greg coming on to wrap things up as Mike signs off and thanks his guests and sponsors, which as a sponsor myself, I want to personally thank both of you for that. With the new Shakespeare, my box retrospective box set,

you're all blindfolded. Is that one of the incriminating photos you are referencing on it? And regardless, what is the backstory on it as inquiring minds want to know? Why are you blindfolded on the cover of Shakespeare, My Butt, Ron? I don't, through the foggy mists of time, I can't really remember whose idea that was or why we thought it was funny.

I think it's a Firing Squad reference, I'm going to guess. There was another one done with red noses as well. I don't know what that's a reference to. Firing Squad? Firing Squad. Circus Firing Squad? Yeah. Yeah, I don't know.

I think it was a Firing Squad reference. And I don't know why that's appropriate, but probably we felt... I mean, it's funny because I thought if we had done it after, if it had come out after we became Indie Freedom Fighters, as they like to often call us, that would make sense to me. But I think we made that decision

whilst we were shopping and around to every major label you could, you know, before we got turned down by them all. That's a... Because I couldn't see your eyes. Right. That's right. That's a great question, Brian. And now he alluded to the fact

that every episode closes with Rosie and Gray. What's interesting, fun fact, is that my contact at Great Lakes Brewery, who are great people, they're fiercely independent. Did I mention that? Freedom fighters. Of course, there's a line early in Rosie and Gray about drinking Guinness. And I've been asked, is there any way, like jokingly I've been asked, not in seriousness,

to insert Great Lakes beer instead of Guinness into that line. Apparently that's, so that was a fun request I thought I'd share since he brought up the roasting. So you need to, I guess what I'm saying is

you'll need to re-record that song. Drink some Great Lakes from it. Wow. Nostalgia is a powerful, powerful drug. Yeah, that's right. They like to remix nostalgia and sell it off to the highest bidder. So thank you so much, Brian, for that question. And Paytm, I just want to let people know that there's still $10 available to you right now.

$10 if you download the app from paytm.ca. This is an app designed to manage all of your bills in one spot. You download it, you set it up, and when you make that first bill payment, use the promo code Toronto Mike and you get the $10 in Paytm cash. So you can use that towards another bill payment or a reward purchase. do that now. And census design and build, if you're looking for architectural design, interior design, and turnkey construction services across the GTA, you need to schedule your zoning and cost project feasibility study at censusdesignbuild.ca. So do that today.

Ron and Lawrence, on this day, on this day in 1940, remember the time. I forgot I got to name this segment, remember the time. I got to brand that thing. On this day in 1940, the Walt Disney animated film Fantasia is released. That's a classic. Did you guys watch Fantasia as kids? That scared the crap out of me.

I seem to remember that for a lot of years that movie was unavailable. It got returned to the vault. That's a Disney move, yeah. And then I think it came back out and I think I saw it at the University Theater on Bloor Street, which is now a pottery barn

or something like that. Yeah, I think it had a 70 millimeter re-release maybe sometime in the 90s or something like that, but it's, that's, it was. I can say that in the 80s they would edit it

and kind of package it up into those, the wide world of Disney, whatever the show was that I used to see on CBC at like 6 p.m. That was Wonderful World of Disney. Wonderful World of Disney, yeah, that's it. And I used to see like, so I don't think it was the full movie,

but it was like excerpts from Fantasia. And the fun fact about Fantasia is, there's a bunch of fun facts, but the main one is that it's the first film to use stereophonic sound. So there you go. 1940 on this date. So Remember the Time is brought to you by Fast Time Watch and Jewelry

Repair. They've been doing quality watch and jewelry repairs for over 30 years. You guys might remember that they had the watch repair store inside Sears. Well, that was Fast had the watch repair store inside Sears well when that that was fast time it was always fast time and now that Sears is gone fast time has sort of started to open up their own locations so go to fast time watch repair.com for a location near you their newest ones in Richmond Hill and this is something I had talked to Milan yesterday and he told me

they never do this is the first time but you can actually get 15% off any regular priced watch battery installation. So if your watch needs a new battery, you go to fast time to get the battery replaced and you can get 15% off just by saying you heard about them on Toronto mic'd. So do that, do that. Shakespeare in my box. If somebody listening right now is like, I got to get my, my mitts on that. Do that. Shakespeare in my box, if somebody listening right now is like, I got to get my mitts on that. What is the recommended process? Go to lowestofthelow.com. What's the action?

Lowestofthelow.com. They go to our website, and there's a link on there that will take you to the Warner Music Store where you can buy, or pre-order at this point, the vinyl box, and you have the option of buying tickets

for a special show at the Dakota Tavern next week where we'll be performing for box owners. Yes, and there's going to be some surprises and some treats that night. That's cool. What night is that again? Next. November 21st, next Wednesday.

There's an early show at 7 p.m. There's an late show at 11 p.m. There's an late show at 11 p.m. You can make that choice on the pre-sale site. The pre-sale, I think the boxes will be delivered sometime in maybe a week after the show, late November. You know what Gene Simmons will do? I never know what Gene Simmons will do.

Do I want to know what Gene Simmons will do? For some exorbitant amount of money, he will personally deliver your Gene Simmons box set of unreleased material. That saddens me. I mean, he's unabashedly, you know, everything's for sale. But yeah, I got the press release.

I don't know what he was charging. It was something ridiculous. So like if you're living in Patagonia, you know? I didn't see any like continental US know, I didn't see any like continental US only or I didn't see any caveats. Yeah, is there the fee plus travel fees? Like, I mean, if he's got to fly across an

ocean or something. Do you have to let him in your house? Yeah. This unreleased material for Gene Simmons is, this is like apparently stuff that, it's not Kiss stuff. Like it's just stuff that he did. It's crap. I can't imagine anybody wanting to pay anything for that, this is like apparently stuff that, it's not Kiss stuff, it's just stuff that he did. It's crap. I can't imagine anybody wanting to pay anything for that, let alone the

exorbitant amount of money he's asking. Or maybe if one sucker buys then he's good to go. I don't know. Enough about Gene Simmons. So Shakespeare in my box. So what is the date? It says it's pre-order right now, but what's the date it's out? November 30th, I believe, is the actual release date. And I think it's pre-order right now, but what's the date it's out? November 30th, I believe is the actual release date.

And I think it's also available on Amazon.ca. People can go to Amazon and look it up there. Shakespeare My Box. No, very, very cool. That's very cool. Now... You know that, so that title of Shakespeare My Box, it happened exactly the same way that the title of Shakespeare

My Butt happened, if you want to talk about unfortunate nostalgia. exactly the same way that the title of Shakespeare in my butt happened. If you want to talk about unfortunate nostalgia. When we were sitting around making Shakespeare in my butt, I think, it might not have been me, but it was somebody in the band made that suggestion

based on a misreading of a Shakespearean poster on a wall that said Shakespeare's Britain or something like that, but it was far enough away that somebody said, does that say Shakespeare's butt? And then somebody said Shakespeare my butt. We laughed. And then that became the album title. And that's how an awful lot of things get decided in Lowest of Low. So when this came together to compile it, I said, ha, ha, ha, it should be called Shakespeare my box. And everybody went, that's pretty funny. And I was like, oh my God. And I was having this incredible deja vu.

And then I was quite concerned. And we sort of talked to a few people oh my God. And I was having this incredible deja vu. And then I was quite concerned and we sort of talked to a few people outside of ourselves and everybody to a person said, that's a great name for the collection. And I was like, is it? Is it really? Yeah, we did our due diligence and we came up with boring, unfunny titles for it as well.

It's just that we just circled back to... That seems that, you know, they say first thought, best thought. And it was like, I don't agree with that. First thought, stupidest thought, maybe. Sometimes. And then we always do that. Even Lois the Lo is the same way. Come up with that name, and then come up with 35 other names, because you're like, we can't call ourselves Lois the Lo. And then go, that was the best one.

You know what? I don't know if either of you ever watched The Simpsons. So there's the famous episode where they introduce Poochie. And the guy in charge says something like, we need a dog character. We can call him something like Poochie. You know, Poochie, right? Yes. And the guy in charge says something like, we need a dog character. We can call him something like Poochie, you know, Poochie, but better, he says. You guys figure that out.

Then he leaves the room, and you have all these writers at the table, and they kind of all look at each other, and they go, so Poochie it is? And they go, yeah. So that's the same kind of deal. Like Poochie, except better. Exactly.

So somebody said, Shakespeare my box, better yeah so shakespeare my but not that and now poochie's back on his home planet that yeah that's right never to be seen again poochie that's right um that's right um that's the one where the the woman she's passed now but she was 100 or something but the voiceover actress she was like she was a bunch of famous cartoon characters i can't remember her foray something foray but anyway she was the voice of uh roadrunner and she said everybody saw and she said they only paid me to say beep or something and then she corrects the guy and says well no actually they only had me say it once and then they loop looped it. So beep, and they looped it. Anyway, enough Simpson.

That's another podcast we'll do. Brief bit of real talk before I hear you guys play something, which I can't wait. I'm going to remind me to record it. That was smart. I did that last time. I'm going to record it with my phone, the video of you guys playing.

So that's your job, Lawrence, to remind me. If you don't, I'm going to be mad at you. Okay. Real talk. Now, how tough is it for a Toronto-based musician

to make a living at his slash her craft? That's a very open, vague question. In 2018? Like, how is it?

Yeah, let's talk about it on a scale of very difficult to impossible oh yeah I'm leaving it intentionally broad to a little bit of context

there's a couple of conversations I had recently one with Chris Murphy from Sloan and then another one with Molly Johnson and I'm not in the industry

I don't know anything but both conversations I was left with the impression that unless you have some kind of a big hit that cracks the US.S. market, this is the impression I got. Unless you have that, which puts you in apparently a different category potentially, it's almost impossible to live in this city and just be a musician. Even if your songs, and I'm dating myself of this one because I don't know if they play videos anymore, but even if your songs are all over much music and let's say Indie 88 or 102.1, The Edge.

I don't make a living playing music. I know lots of people who make a living that's all music-based, but it involves a bit of teaching, which is a musical pursuit. a bit of teaching and um which is which is a musical pursuit um uh i honestly don't know how anyone's starting out today like what what financial plan they're hoping to follow um just look just anybody any any millennial who's who's living and working in toronto can't afford to buy a house anymore i mean that's that's a tough thing. A lot of people are having to stay at home

or gang up and get a lot of roommates and stuff like that. So in Toronto, it's just tough to make a lot of money and stay above water. It's not just musicians, though, too, because a friend of ours is a man named Ken Babstock, arguably the Poet Laureate of Canada right now. It's, you know, probably I'm going to guess he's in his 40s, early 40s. And he's fantastic.

He's at the absolute top of that game. And he has to teach to stay alive. I mean, he's a poet. So, you know, that's been a joke for a long time. You know, trying to make a living as a poet is probably worse than trying to make a living as a musician. And I'm a weird, like I'm kind of swimming upstream because I read all the time about how it's getting harder and things are getting worse and it's getting better for me exponentially every year.

But as Lawrence says, I'm not a millennial and it's like I got an opportunity to get my foot in the door when there was a chance to get your foot in the door. And then I was in a, you know, of course certainly not a household name. I mean, I don't think Lowest to Low, I think a lot of people in the door. And then I was in a, you know, certainly not a household name. I mean, I don't think Lowest to Low, I think a lot of people in the mythology

of Lowest to Low has grown, but we certainly weren't really a household name in Canada even then. You know, we were very successful. And in the, you know, amongst the tribe that we were popular with, we were very, very popular. But not enough to sort of surf that

the rest of our lives, you know, or anything like that. So yeah, it's really hard. And I know some writers, a couple of writer friends of mine had said varying versions of like, you know, when we were starting out, you know, he as a writer, me as a musician, it's like, you know, they would tell you, you know, you might starve to death, you know, like think about it

because you might starve to death. He says now it'd be like, you're going to starve to death. Like there's not a, there's not even a, like you might starve to death. You're now either going to have to have an alternative or you're going to starve to death. Like there's not a, there's not even a, like you might starve to death. You're now either going to have to have an alternative or you're going to starve to death. So, so you said it was getting better for you. Uh, can you elaborate? Like, like how so? I'm not at liberty to elaborate. If nostalgia is a drug, Ron is one of the biggest dealers.

He's got quite a lot. Cause I cut it with love, man. There you go. No, it's just, you know, like I now, because Lois the Lois was almost a household name, was a garage hold name. That's really awkward. I will point out, in certain subsets,

and I realize sometimes we think that the subset we're in is the universe. I've been at fault for this. During the final Tragically Hip concert, I just thought every Canadian that was breathing was watching with me. And then my wife, her Facebook feed, nobody was talking about the hip. And I had this whole like,

oh, it's kind of like just like English white Canada that's really into this of a certain age. And then I had this whole like epiphany. So my subset, and of course, I am of the age where I was the the age where music means the most to you when Shakespeare my butt comes out so in my subset uh you know lowest of the low I might as well be talking about the Beatles or whatever like in this subset and I realize of course at the uh if you look at the country as a whole that not everybody lives in my little subset. That's true.

But also at the time you're talking about, music was something that people bought. That happens less and less now. Very few people actually pay for music. They pay for subscription services. We have our friends, James Party, who we're playing with in Buffalo next week, actually. They had a million listens to one of their songs on Spotify,

and I don't think it really moved the dial for them financially at all. That's a question I've always been curious. I don't know the figures. Before I forget, because this kind of ties into Spotify, not quite Spotify, but there is a question. I think you answered it on Twitter, but we've got to answer it here. If I could dig it up. Do you know where I'm going with this?

Oh, yeah, that our music is currently not available on Spotify. Yeah, Sean Hammond. That's the guy. I just want to give him credit. He says he can't find your music on Apple Music. Yeah, sorry, Sean. Yes, it did vanish temporarily because it's all being transferred over to Warner Music and it's all coming back up concurrently with the box set release. So temporary, Sean. And there all be back. So temporary Sean.

And there will be a remastered Hallucigenia, a remastered Sorted Fiction, and Hallucigenia's even got some bonus tracks. You know, I mean, there'll be more. It'll be better. How does Spotify work? Do you opt in to be available on Spotify, or is it like a default setting?

Yes, but it's pretty much a default thing. Like, I mean, every label indie or now with Warner, everybody's just like, well, of course, because that's where people go to listen to music now. So if you want people to listen to your music, that's where you have to be. Yes. Now, you mentioned you get...

I mean, I'm just curious about the economics of Spotify. Of course, back in the day, we bought CDs for like 15 to 20 bucks a pop or whatever. And in that old days, what percentage of that would go to the band, for example, versus today with Spotify, how many billions of streams do you need before they cut a check of anything worthwhile? The thing too is this isn't new. Nothing's new under the sun.

I feel like people are making it sound like Spotify. nothing's new under the sun. I feel like people are making it sound like Spotify. You're getting 75 cents for your million listens on Spotify is a brand new thing. But if you go back to pre-'60s and you talk about Little Richard and Jerry Lewis and all those guys, they were all getting screwed. Fats Domino, millions and millions of records sold,

physical objects sold, and they were broke because the record company was screwing them around and even in our day i'd say that you know where that was one thing you always argued about uh with your label was how much you know how much is the device that delivers the art important and how much is the art important and that's always been out of balance i think in my mind you know but it's it's it's the same way we're talking about how it's impossible to be a poet it's impossible to be a musician is that because there's a certain cultural uh downplaying of how important these things are to us you know it's like it's like everybody realizes you need it to be healthy to have a healthy culture and to to remain alive you kind of need this stuff like oxygen but nobody wants to pay for it or nobody wants to understand how somebody can stay alive long enough

to make it, you know? And maybe, maybe it's the kind of thing that there'll be a big reckoning 10 years from now when the quality of the music either goes out the window or people just stop making it because they can't survive. And they'll realize, Oh wait, we really needed that. And we didn't, you know, we didn't honor it in the way we should, so now it's gone. Like the climate. It's like if all the bees die, we're next. But nobody's stupid enough to not pay attention

to those major warnings, are they? Of course not. So Lawrence, you mentioned, of course, you have a day job. I do, yeah. I have a full-time job where I... In an apiary? No. I like to

bees, but I don't make a living doing that. No, I drive around Toronto and I deliver supplies for a paper supply company. Makes for some long days. Get up early in the morning and get out there in traffic. That's what I did today. Today I got up at five and I was at work at

six and then came straight from work and met Ron. And now I'm here and then I'll be going back to work when we're done here. And then... Is there an analogy in the paper delivery business for the nostalgia? Like is there a certain ply of toilet paper? No, because people still pay for it. People still pay for it. I missed the one with the fuzzy kittens on the cover.

They do, but we don't make those anymore because the environment, you know. But yeah, so no, and then tonight we'll be rehearsing from nine till twelve and then I'll get up at five again tomorrow

and go back to work. I have no complaints about any of this. Because you're happy because you still get to do what you love. I get to do this and I have complaints

on Lawrence's behalf but he doesn't have. Yeah. But Ron, if I read between the lines, you're able to support yourself strictly based on your singing, songwriting.

On the back of Lawrence Nichols, yes. On the back of Lawrence Nichols. Yeah, well, that's what I was going to say is that, you know, so it's having been in Lowest to the Low, that's one foot up. And then I plugged away at a solo career as well. That's another foot up. And then, you know, I produce records for people and I'm a visual artist.

And so sort of like between all of those trickles, it adds up to a good situation. And as I say, it seems to be growing. And for a long time, like for decades, I would have people with straight jobs who would go, like, I couldn't live like that. Like I could not know where my money's coming from three months from now.

Like I would just be stressed all the time. Yeah, the volatility, yeah. Yeah, and so for me, though, it's like I just sit with the comfort that, well, it's always taking care of itself, and I have no real evidence to believe it will stop taking care of itself, and then that just has been building.

So not only has it not been taking care of itself, it's been getting better, but I recognize that I'm in a vast minority of people trying to do that. And how much is it like ownership? Like let's say a song like Bleed a Little Wild Tonight. This is a song you wrote. Yeah.

Ron. And so do you own like, I know there's publishing rights and there's always, it's a bit confusing for an outsider like me, but do you own that? Mm-hmm. I do.

That's the thing, the way we run our career, I've always owned all the songs I've written, and we've always pretty much at some point owned all the masters that we've recorded, which is a good position to be in. I mean, it's not like 0% of 100% of publishing, or I get 100% of zero if nobody uses the publishing

in terms of selling it to movies or covering it or whatever. Right. And I've been told in the past that the way I write songs is not the easiest thing to sell to things like commercials or film and stuff like that because they're very specific lyrically. And who knows if that's true or not. But yeah, there's not been tons of that kind of thing

happening for me. Have you ever been tempted to try and get a little more vague in your songwriting so that maybe some more money would come in? But would that be like a song under the Carlaw Bridge? You might not name the bridge. Is that what you mean? Yeah, just under some generic bridge.

I mean, that's catchy, right? Under some generic bridge. But part of why people like me love the songs is they speak to the city. Well, I was going to say too, that's another fold of this onion that we're unpeeling here is that it also depends on what you're in it for what

you'll be satisfied with when you become a musician or an artist of any nature like a lot of people won't be happy unless they're you know jay-z or they're you know right now let's say in toronto the arkells if they're not the arkells then they failed and they don't want to do it or you know some bone isn't being you know funny bone isn't being tickled or whatever. And, uh, for me, it's like, I've always been in it. You know, all my role models were people who, if you look at their careers sort of got in their own way because of their own value system. And, uh, so I'm the same. So I recognize that I probably could have made decisions that might've made me more money. Well, I mean, for instance, you know, in early lowest to the low, there's a, there's a story

that goes, you know, uh, Molson Canadian asked us to use salesman cheats and liars on the tv commercial and we basically like you know eight fingers went up eight middle fingers because that song is so specific very specific very specific song and then they kept coming back with greater and greater amount of money and it was you know so this is in the early 90s it went to over a hundred thousand dollars and we were able to sort of hold on, you know, we were shaking or we were physically shaking when we said no the last time, but we, you know, stuck or strapped ourselves to the mast and said no. But would you say no today? Yeah. To Molson Canadian, I would. Yeah. I mean, there's still this integrity for me in terms of like, I don't want to lie about, you know, I don't want to strap my name to something

that I wouldn't use. You know, I don't want to do anything that's morally repugnant to me, you know, politically or environmentally or, but, you know, again, that, you know, in this kind of industry and in the kind of society we live, live in that strikes a lot of boxes off, you know, you've lost a lot of opportunity right there. If you're not willing to do something morally repugnant. Andy Kim was in last week and he was telling me he did very well

when Jeep, I guess Chrysler owns Jeep, but whoever owns Jeep bought Rock Me Gently for a big campaign and cut a fat check or something. Well, see, you know what's changed with me with getting older is that I still have exactly the same values for myself. I hold myself up to the same.

But whereas in the past, I would probably have judged somebody harshly for that. I hold myself up to the same. But whereas in the past, I would probably have judged somebody harshly for that. Now I get it. Now I kind of, I'm older and softer in that way for other people where I go like, I get that you have to eat

and you have a family and stuff like that. And you know, I'm not going to judge you for that. I don't want to do it, but hell, I'm happy for him. That's great.

That's really cool. I mean, when I saw that, I saw Barenaked Ladies at like at Massey Hall like last December or something. And they played this song. The new song is called Canada Dry.

That's the name of the new song, which is not new anymore because it's a year old. But it was their new song. And Canada Dry was used prominently in the ad campaign for Canada Dry. And I was sitting there thinking, like, what came first? Like, I'm pretty sure the drink drink came first. The drink came through, but did somebody say, hey, write a song about our beverage

because we would like to license it, or did they have a song called Canada Giant and they came to them and said... Okay, an addendum to what I just said before,

I'm totally judging the brand of the beverage. That's pretty lame. But they could have picked a beverage with an easier rhyme scheme. Tahiti treat. Tahiti treat.

Tahiti treat. I remember Tahiti treat. Tahiti treat. Tahiti treat. I remember Tahiti treat. Or Fresca. Even Fresca. Well, no, actually, that's a tough one. What rhymes with Fresca? Is Fresca the one that's big in Germany? Is that the...

I don't know what that is. It could be. Or Fanta. I'm thinking of Fanta. Fanta. Fanta's big in that. Doesn't Fanta cover a whole bunch of different places? Okay, anyway, we're getting...

The craziest outlier of all this would be that I was just talking, I was in New York with my partner and we were going to a bunch of cultural stuff there, the New Yorker Festival, and I got all excited about the idea of busking and I said, you know, when I get home, I'm going to busk.

And she said, really? And I said, yeah, just spend a day busking. And she said, yeah. And then a couple hours later, we came back to it and I said, yeah, spend like an hour busking. And then it was like, spend like half an hour busking. And she said, and she said, yeah. And then about a couple hours later, we came back to it and I said, yeah, like, you know, spend like an hour busking. And then it was like, spend like half an hour busking. And she said, every time you tell me the story, it gets to be smaller. But you know, the idea that if I thought I could go out and busk, you know, two or three days a

week and make enough money to pad the other stuff, I would totally do it because I would feel right about it. I would feel like it's just a very personal, small version of what we do with our fan base, which is that try to be as stripped down and truly us as we can be. And that's how I started doing it as well. Like Steve and Stanley and I used to go out and busk and my friend Petter and I used to go,

he used to have a standup base. We'd go out and busk with this acoustic guitar and standup base. So, you know, like, so I'm pretty So I'm pretty pre-disastered. If that makes me happy, then it cuts me a lot of slack to not be pissed off in a lot of scenarios that might piss somebody else off because I'm happy with very little.

I'm a simple soul. How much money would you need to make in a day to make it worthwhile going busking? I don't know. $2,000, $3,000. Exactly. If you're dropping money for a busker, what's the biggest denomination? I know. It's been a long time.

The thing about busking is it's so incredibly unpredictable that you would get... I got the odd $50 bill. And of course, in 1989... There were no toonies. There were no loonies either. There were tons of loonies. There were loonies.

People throwing condoms into my case. Cans of beer. There were no toonies. There were no loonies either, right? There were tons of loonies. There were loonies. People throwing condoms into my case. Oh, loonies. Cans of beer. Cans of beer. You know, I'm willing to bet there was loonies in 88. Well, imagine that. I'm like, I got a can of beer. 88 or maybe 88?

That's a good question. In a way, it seems like they've been there forever. I remember. I remember when they showed up. It was exciting. I feel like it was 88, but I could be misremembering. That's a while ago. Now, Bon Jovi was on 60 Minutes,

and I'm watching 60 Minutes. This is a few years ago, and Bon Jovi was explaining how Bon Jovi is structured from a business standpoint. It was Bon Jovi owns, Bon Jovi, the man, owns the band Bon Jovi, and everyone else,

including Richie Sambora, who we think is a founding member or whatever, they're all employees of Bon Jovi Inc. or whatever the heck is. So I was curious about Lowest of the Low. Is this Ron Hawkins? Do you own Lowest of the Low and then you hire musicians to be in the band?

I own these guys. No, we actually started out a very socialist gang. And it was like everything was split four ways from publishing to, uh, the band and everything that got tweaked later in the, later on after some reunions and everything, and strictly on the financial basis that everybody else had a other living. And I was, this is all I do. Right. So I figured, well, I spend those hundreds of hours writing songs. So we renegotiated that kind of thing. But the idea from day one is like, we've all built this together. So we're all part of the,

part of the undertaking. So, you know, we kind of, I guess we kind of, you know, like it gets kind of confusing because when Steve left the band, you know,

as a forming member, you know, we have a partnership. So now Dave and I are the original members that are in the partnership. So that's the closest it is, but it doesn't really mean anything other than we're the guys who will get stuck with the debts if the band goes under.

Is that what that means? I think so. Whatever's in our bank-based debts. Okay, now two more questions on this. One is, can you explain to me, is it possible for you to explain to me SoCan? Because I know Chris you to explain to me SoCan?

Because I know Chris Murphy was trying to explain SoCan and what he gets from SoCan every year. Tell me what it is. It's like ACTRA. It's like a performing rights organization. It's a royalty collection agency. Is that from radio stations? Yes. When they play?

And TV. Yeah, so venues that have live music radio stations television television programs I guess as well all have to pay I guess a set fee

to SoCan and based on whose songs are performed on television whose songs are performed in venues

it all gets divvied up and there's people that work away so is that like if who will I pick let's go back to Eddie Vedder so Pearl Jam

comes to town oh you mean Ed yes Ed yes and ed's gonna ed plays uh henry needs a new pair of shoes i could i could hear it playing that does that venue now need to whatever it is uh is that how it works yeah theoretically no but the reason it doesn't work quite like that is it's not even even the collection of songs is not on a like they i don't think they have the algorithms to collect exactly all the plays you have so when you get paid for plays it's not it's not like you you got played 2 000 times so you get paid x number of pennies for the two for each time it's like they do these audits every now and then and you know um if you're in

that audit inside that audit they make a guesstimation. So I think what it is is that oftentimes, if you're not Bruce Springsteen or something like that, you may get unduly paid because you showed up more often than you actually were when they do the algorithm, or you fall through the cracks. So overall, I think it evened out to be pretty fair, and they catch it.

And there are places like Maple Leaf Gardens, I was going evened out to be pretty fair and they catch it. And there are places like Maple Leaf Gardens, I was going to call it Maple Leaf Gardens, the ACC. It's not even called that anymore. It's not even that. It's something else now. Scotiabank Arena.

I watch a lot of Leafs games. Wherever that is that the Leafs play, they're currently playing that Peace and Quiet tribute to the Leafs video that Tim Thompson made. We said we weren't going to talk about it. Didn't we say we were not going to talk about it? But it's interesting in this way. I love talking about Tim.

Because ACC doesn't pay for that. They don't pay SOCAN for that. There's some loophole for that actual presentation. They pay for in-house music that's being played. And I would love to know whether they have to pay for the organ player when he plays Pump It Up on the organ. I don't know if they have to pay Costello. There are certain little things where there are loopholes

for certain kinds of broadcasts. That was probably more information than you wanted. I like this inside baseball. I just wonder, is it a substantial amount? For lowest to low at this point, I'm just thinking I guess you get the odd play on a Q107?

At this point, you get a payment every quarter. And right now, I get more payments for solo material than I do for lowest to the low material. But that will change

if we play a lot of shows. Because another element of it too is you can put, you can submit your set lists. So if we play live, I can submit all the set lists and all the song names. Or here's an idea

I've had for a while now. Again, I think of myself as the target audience here. But how about you take the alt rock that we loved in the 90s, let's say 102.1, right? Except we're all in our whatever 40s now, 40s and 50s, and you have the adult alternative station, which has sort of got a bit of, you can go back to even the Marsden Spirit of Radio stuff

and then you can bring it into the 90s. I mean, there would be a ton of lowest of the low, I would think, on this station. Theoretically. Either that or we all just smarten up and listen to good music wherever it is. I love how people try to find these pockets and demographics and stuff.

And it's like, you know, there's people who are under 20 that have come to our shows. Either their parents have dragged them there, their grandparents have dragged them there. But, you know, they'll come back and say, that was awesome. You know, a good band is a good band, you know?

And I'm not saying that necessarily millennials en masse like guitar rock music like our generation did, but those who like it, like it. And it's out there. And if it's a quality version of that, they'll like it. So, you know, it's like, I find it funny because when we're in the generation

that we're talking about, where the people are playing it, we don't apply this to the swingier jazz. We don't apply this to early blues. Like that's just music now. And so everybody listens to it, you know, and it doesn't matter whether you're 18 or 80. But when we're right in it,

when you're still living through it, I think people suddenly get all weird about whether, you know, who's listening to this and who's not listening to this. It's like, it's music. If they like it, they like it. Well, for some people, it's their job to do that as well. And it's an imprecise and impossible science, but some people have to try to make sense of it.

But I feel like it's people getting paid to do something that isn't really a job. Well. You know what I mean? It's like marketing, you know, like the whole thing where they talk about, you know, how marketing became a thing between when the teenagers were invented, right? So marketing, so the, always the dream marketing is between what, 16 and 30 or 16 and 24. And everybody's like, they don't have money.

Like, what are you marketing to them for? They can't buy anything, you know? Because that's when you, that's when you Because that's when you imprint upon people stuff. That's when they form these things that become nostalgia later, and nostalgia has, you know... Right, but you're not selling nostalgia. That's what I'm saying. Like, if you're talking about stuff that you're, you know,

and they're sending, like, 22-year-old tastemakers into bars to set, you know, it's like, that's great, but you're talking, you're in a bubble here. Like, you're in an echo chamber of people that don't really have exposable income. How do we get tastemakers to come to our shows? I'd love to meet one. They might be among us. Maybe you don't even know. Yeah, they don't announce their presence, the tastemakers.

It's funny, though. It really is an imprecise science. I remember that baffling... Well, it's not a science. That's how imprecise it is. It's faux science. I remember that baffling experience where we were trading edits of Girona Train all night, trying to figure out how imprecise it is. It's faux science. It was just, I remember that baffling experience where we were trading edits of Gerona Train all night trying to figure out what the CBC would consider to put on the radio because our label was like,

well, we can't. The song has got a 20-second bit of music where there's no lyrics in it, so we've got to get rid of that. And we were trying to figure out different ways to shorten the song. It was all completely pointless because it was, you know, but I mean, it just seemed like, you know,

that's maybe what used to happen all the time. I don't know. Well, the thing is, though, that's a very good example because it's the same band we're talking about and in the 90s our managers at the time were just apoplectic about the idea that we wanted to apply with Rosie and Gray. They were like, it's a minute before

anybody sings anything. There's a double intro. What do you need a double intro for? You got to cut one of those intros. And of course, as I say, we were just eight middle fingers sticking up all the time at that point. So it was like, we were like, you know, screw you. Like, that's the song. You know, either they take it or they don't. And of course, they took it and ran with the ball.

And then that imprinted this thing in our heads that we were right and that you should always just stick your middle fingers up, which is probably not the case. But I still think there's an element of smoke and mirrors and it's about you're chasing, you's about you're chasing your tail about... The most ludicrous one was a guy I respect wildly, Kim Cook, he's a friend of ours

and he's the label owner of Fairmum, was talking about the trail at the delay, bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, at the end of the song and that we had to cut that because... Oh, power lines, yeah. And I was like, you know what? They'll cut that. We don't have to cut that.

If it's too much, they'll chop it off. They'll interrupt it. They'll start another song over. They'll do whatever they want, yeah. We're concerned about things that aren't real concerns. Yeah. All right. Sorry.

Or it won't even go that far. It won't even get that far up the ladder. So fake science is bad, everyone. That's what we're here to say. CanCon rules. Now, you guys are playing Buffalo and I understand you're rather big in Buffalo. They like us.

They like you in Buffalo. We like them. And I'm going to guess, I'm going to extrapolate. I'm going to try to problem solve you. Because they could hear you from Toronto radio stations, probably mostly 102.1. Exactly. And so, I mean, of course, people hear you from Toronto radio stations, probably mostly 102.1.

Exactly. And so, I mean, of course, people hear you. They like you because it's good. Good music is good music. So I guess I'm curious to know your thoughts on the fact we have CanCon and how it helped your career. Does Shakespeare My Butt get that kind of rotation if there's no Can con rules uh in place

i think so i think it would have because i think the phenomenon that that got all the exposure for shakespeare my butt was it was a very deliberate initiative by by cfmy at the time to play local independent canadian music that's what that was their thing. I don't know that there were... It wasn't enforced CanCon, I don't think. It was not. I think it was personal diligence. Yeah, what was the radio play like all over the country, though?

I mean, was it adopted in the same way? It wasn't adopted anywhere similarly as The Edge, but there was no Edge. Like, you know, everybody we talked about, everybody I ever complained about radio had the nerve to complain about radio once I left Toronto would go, are you kidding me?

You know, because we had the edge. We had, you know, even like CKLN and CIUT and stuff. We had a lot of options for independent music, so. Yeah, I've always been, I've been a fan of CanCon, I think, because I think it does help we live in the shadow of the behemoth

there's so much culture coming over the border and I don't even know if it applies as much today the internet has sort of made the world a much smaller place in a lot of ways but I can't help but think that there were artists that did get exposure on Canadian radio that wouldn't have received

it otherwise if the programmers could have simply put out the most popular American stuff on 24-7. For that I think it's a good thing. I sort of have a recollection of Brian Adams being very upset in the 90s.

Because he suddenly didn't qualify as CanCon because he recorded the album with a British producer and he recorded it, I assume, in Switzerland or something like that. Something like that. And maybe co-wrote the songs with Mutt Lang. I don't know.

But he wasn't Canadian enough to qualify for CanCon. Now, at the end of the day, I'm not sure that that prevented Brian Adams from being on Canadian radio. Think of how big he would have been. I don't think so. Yes, think of how big Bryan Adams would have been. You mean they could have played that jam more?

Everything I do, I do it for you? Wasn't that on high rotation everywhere forever? Yeah, sure. Still probably is. And, you know, so I don't, you know, he was not very fond of it because he felt it was holding him back in some ways. I don't know, maybe it was, but I don't know. We were he was not very fond of it because he felt it was holding him back in some ways. I don't know, maybe it was,

but I don't know. We were always sort of outside looking in on that so it's kind of hard to see, you know, if it was a real problem. So I think it probably did good. I think it probably still does good,

but the digital and landscape that we're living in right now I think has very different rules and it's hard to figure out how that all works. I know I said the CanCon question was the last question,

but now I'm just curious because I struggle with this. The radio and much music, those two channels, if you will, used to be what would curate, sort of present to me the music of the day and it was kind of curated. I would listen to, be it Bookie or whoever alan cross or whoever would kind of like give it a

little context sometimes and then uh you discover music that way and i'd be like oh i really like that uh song about henry he's got this new pair of shoes and i go pick up the the disc and so uh today i don't know how like how does it work today like who's curating and presenting it i know i have teenagers, and I know they listen to a lot of music, but they're listening to big American hip-hop acts is primarily what they're listening to. But how do you cut through the noise?

I suspect the answer for us is we probably don't. Like Lazy Days. Let me just be specific. Like Lazy Days. I heard it. I loved it. I tweeted it. We just played it.

It's going to be on the Shakespeare My Box, which is going to be bought by fans of Lowest of the Low, right? So how do you get people to hear a song like that in 2018? Well, I don't know the absolute answer to that. For us, we're going to go and play it in front

of people. And that's not a glib answer. That's really how we're... That's not just us. I think that's the... What's the phrase I'm looking for? It's every dimension or every exponentially bigger band than us still does this,

but in an exponentially bigger level. It's still down to playing in front of people. I think no matter how big you are, you're not just sitting back waiting for the radio to do it. I guess I feel when you're playing in front of lowest of the low fans. That's the converted, and you're in church,

and these people all believe. How do we get to new people? Because the radio was the old way, the way I grew up with. The flip now, though, is I get angry and get... I get judgy and pointy when I talk to people my age who do such, you know, the minute the sentence starts, there's no good, you know, I want to just head them off

at the pass because there's so much good music made. You know, I'm always saying there's more good music now made than you could ever listen to. So, you know, and I don't just mean good by some weird abstract, I mean, music that you like, music that you would and i don't just mean good by some weird abstract i mean music that you like music that you would like if you heard it um and i just every now and then i'll just do a dive in youtube or wherever it is right you just look around and uh like recently this i just played four sold-out shows at the only cafe and brought um a performer named sky wallace uh with me who

some of your of uh your fans will know uh and, and she's a, you know, like a folk artist, but also has a band and she's probably in her mid twenties and she's very, very achieved and has it all down and has a couple of records. She just made a record with Jim Bryson, but I just discovered her completely by accident from a video that was on YouTube and, uh, and then tracked her down and then asked her to come to the the shows. And that's the thing. So then she came and played for whatever that might have been over the four nights, 200 people. And I would be shocked if she didn't gain 100 new fans.

So I think it still can work that way, which is the old way, which is really no different. Replace YouTube with Sam the Record Man, and that's what I used to just go around and look in the bins, right? So I think it's kind of a contemporary version of that, right? For those who are curious and want to look around for stuff and actually care about music or care, you know. I mean, obviously our lives get in the way

and there's a lot of stuff to do, but. My apologies that we're already an hour in. Is that okay? Okay, good. I'm just making sure you're not late for the hockey game. No, no, that's not. I have to get out here by five we're fine we're fine tap your head if you ever need a bathroom break how's that for a signals we'll have signals okay are you okay to all right you're gonna perform yeah sure some music and thanks lawrence for reminding me to record this. And when she smiled all you thought about was running up suicide hill

Nothing short of a bullet could have broken your will And all for the hand of Magdalena Your boots planted in the soil of Spain Like her tears in the Spanish rain All for the hand of Magdalena Clyde gave her with a bayonet You never thought anyone could look so cool She could handle that Soviet pistol

Like she learned to do it in school You found it live in an area Bombshell section, injection You were wet with fear She was wet with passion All for the hand of Magdalena. Your boots planted in the soil of Spain. Like her tears in the Spanish rain.

All for the hand of Magdalena. Your mother could never understand why her son took the car to arms. And her father could never understand that she could fall for your Republican charms Magdalena, Magdalena Magdalena The choice was never ours In a week and a half You'll be walking down 42nd Street again

And you could read it in the New York Times The plagiarizing in this damning way And you could read it in the New York Times, the plagiarizing in his tamming way And you could touch that spot where the fascist bullet nearly severed your arm But that's nothing like the way that your soul is scarred And all for the hand of Magdalena, your heart broken in the soil of Spain Like her tears in the Spanish rain All for the hand of Magdalena Your blood's red like the soil of Spain Like her tears in the Spanish rain

All for the hand of Magdalena The hand of Magdalena The hand of Magdalena. Amazing. Amazing. I have to assure everyone listening that there was no edits. I didn't re-do it. That was just live on the floor. That was sensational.

Oh, tampering. Thank you. Ron's had a guitar on the whole time we've been talking. I've been dying to do that. Oh, my goodness. Thanks so much here. Well, thank you for having us and helping us spread our image. This is another component of convincing people to come and listen to you play music live. And I think a whole bunch of people just heard Lazy Days for the first time when you played it earlier. Yes.

And maybe some people just heard For the Hand of Magdalena for the first time. That's right. You never know. But not for the last time, though. I sing your praises at every opportunity. That is the sincere truth. I think you guys are fantastic here. And now we can kick out some jams here.

So it's just like last time. I'm going to play the song and then I'll break it down. And then I want to hear why you love the track. I'm feeling shitty Cause you're so pretty And I know that when I fall You will not be home I want you to be Don't be so cruel to me

Don't keep me wondering If I'm right or I'm dumb Cause I know that's just you. And I know you're gonna do whatever you want to. Yeah, I'm so lonely. I want you only in every other cliche that I can think of. In every other cliche that I can't think of, think of, think of, think of. The cliche song, Junior Gone Wild. I don't know, maybe this tale has grown in the telling a bit. I don't think so.

In August of 1990, that was the first time I ever toured Canada. I was part of a little folk trio called the Pale Criminal at the time, a fellow named James Paul from Toronto, and a fellow named Steve Mitchell who was from Vancouver. And we went out in a 1974 Datsun to drive across Canada and play shows. And we got as far as Winnipeg, and then Steve discovered he was diabetic, so immediately flew home to Vancouver, and we became a little folk duo, me and James. And we met some really cool other musicians along the way.

So this was August 1990. When we got to Regina, there were two people, two fellows working at the bar that we played at. A fellow named Keith was the bartender, and a fellow named Jason was working the soundboard. And those guys were two-thirds of the band The Waltons. And they gave me a little cassette of their demos. And then, which I listened to constantly on the drive

and afterwards when I got home. I thought they were fantastic. And then a few days later, we opened up for Junior Gone Wild at the Westwood Club in Calgary, who I had never met before. And it was the same thing. They were simply fantastic.

They were sort of doing this sort of country punk... It was this incredible hybrid, and Mike McDonald, who wrote a lot of the songs, had a real sort of acerbic wit to him that really comes through in those songs. And I bought their little cassette. It was called Folk You, The Guido Sessions, and it was a collection of live tracks,

and they were gearing up to release their, I guess it was maybe their first major label album or something, it was on Stony Plain, and that was a song we just heard was called The Cliché Song. But when I got back to Toronto, I was playing these tapes for a lot of people that I knew, and I remember playing

Junior Gone Wild stuff for Ron, and I seem to remember when our bands teamed up to play Night at the Cabana, we all piled on stage and covered a Junior Gone Wild stuff for Ron. And I seem to remember when our bands teamed up to play Night at the Cabana, we all piled on stage and covered a Junior Gone Wild song back there. So I consider them to be sort of touchstone of my first great trip across Canada. So I have a great fondness for them.

And I think, I don't know, I mean, you really dug their sound too, right? Yeah, and the cliche song became a staple with the low we used to play these shows as a three-piece at a place called the Blue Moon Saloon, which was just mayhem. It was like a tiny bar that wasn't really built for it. We were jammed in the corner and people would be standing on tables

and on the bar and dancing and stuff like that. But we, hearing those guys before that, hearing those guys was one of the, you know, there were probably three or four different pieces of a blueprint that helped me put the idea of what I was writing for Lowest to the Low together out of the ashes of a band called Popular Front that I used to have, which was sort of a big more, much more sort of world beat stuff and some ska stuff and, you know, two-tone and

all that kind of stuff. And then I just sort of got this cow punk thing, you know, and the sarcastic, we used to call it sarcastic folk punk. And that, you know, those guys, Junior Gomwald was certainly one of the early progenitors of it. And I sort of saw that too. And, you know, it all came, came into focus like that. Oh yeah, you can do that, right? We, last, last year we, we went out and played some shows with them in Alberta and it was really, really, really great to go out and do that again. Because also we had never played together.

We were fans of each other but had never crossed the country and stuff but never played on the same stage. All 10 stories are going to be as good as this. I'm in for a treat. You've got some Waltons mentioned in there. I got head licked by a tractor. I still put Naked Rain on my mixes and stuff.

I still see Jason every time we go through Regina. He runs a studio there, and he's playing with a bunch of people out there, and it's good to see him. He's a great songwriter and terrific singer. And yeah, I was a great big fan of those guys. Terrible speller, though. Lick My Tractor.

That's right. Let's kick out another one. He don't know how to lie Or undermine you He don't know how to steal How to deal or deceive So leave him alone Set him free Cause he's speaking with the angel.

Speaking with the angel. That only he can save. Ron Sexsmith, speaking with the angel. Yeah, so I came across Ron. We both grew up in East End, so I would run into him every now and then when I was a teenager and before I moved out west and then didn't know anything about him until I was, you know, probably early lowest of the low, I would start seeing him play shows. I remember a show at the El Macombo

and a couple of shows at the Cabana Room as well that I went with my then-girlfriend Kathleen, who we were both big fans and would go see him a lot. And we were often the only ones dancing on the dance floor when they were piling the chairs up at the end, and Ron would still be playing. He was sort of trying to usher people out. So there was a certain vibe, a certain sort of honky-tonky

kind of sad-sacky vibe you'll be shocked to know about those Ron Sexman shows. And the thing I love about this is I got the tape Grand Opry Lane. It was a cassette, and I think it was, I'm pretty sure it was produced by Bob Wiseman, and it was very sort of roughly and uniquely produced by Bob. Bob's got quite a touch, but it's not a very mainstream touch.

And I thought it would perfectly cut against Ron's, the sweetness of Ron's songs and his voice and everything. And then I was always sort of underwhelmed and disappointed by some of the production that happened later with Ron's songs because it was like, you know, big string sections and stuff. And I thought, you know, do you really need to pour some icing sugar, pour some sugar on rock? Not to use another Bon Jovi reference. That's Def Leppard, man.

Oh, Def Leppard. Def Leppard Incorporated. Probably. Again, another person who I think agonizes over the lyrics in the songs, which I have been known to do as well. So he really struck a chord with me.

You also, like in those Blue Moon shows, one of the staples with that was Tell You? Was the name of the song? Yeah. And that was from Grand Opry Lane as well. Yeah. Boy, this is really taking me back. Nostalgia is very powerful.

It's a potent drug. I only want to listen to this cassette tape. And nothing he's done since. He's doing the Andy Kim Christmas show. Have you guys ever done the Andy Kim Christmas show? He's done 14 years apparently he's been doing this thing. And the next band we play is on the bill too. Andy, call us.

I had a 20-minute conversation with Andy on a couch. Just met him. I was going to do a radio thing. And Andy was going to do a radio thing and Andy was going to do a radio thing but we got bumped, not bumped, but we got sort of delayed by Ziggy Marley who showed up with his entourage.

And I don't know if you've ever seen Ziggy Marley in person. No. I imagine it's, you know, I'm only talking about megawatt smile here. I'm not talking about artistic output, but that must have been what it was like to be in Bob Marley's presence. Ziggy Marley smiles and I would have

went right to the bank and given him all my money. He just has this unbelievably charming, right into the deepness of your heart smile on his face. Anyway, so he came in, so they ushered him right past me and Andy and we were left on the couch talking about, you know, I got to chat with Andy about his childhood and about lowest low and all this kind of stuff and we were left on the couch talking about, you know, and I got to chat with Andy about his childhood

and about, you know, lowest to low and all this kind of stuff, and we'd never met. We left there and we were like kind of fast friends, and he's a good friend of Kevin Drew's as well. Kevin was like, oh yeah, I thought you guys would hit it off if you ever met.

He's the sugar sugar man. He's the sugar man. He's the sugar man. Not sugar man. No, that's another, I'm searching for that guy. That's right. Man, amazing.

This next band, so Andy from this next band has been here. Yes, he has. That was pretty fantastic, actually. But let's play it, and then we'll talk about it. Accusations all around you You know this is nothing new Accusations up and down you Now you don't know what to do. So this is Skydigger's

Accusation. It's just occurring to me that I don't think this song is available anymore. I think they had some difficulty with their label. When you were talking about keeping ownership of the master tapes, Andy told me that story. They had to re-record it because they lost the rights to it. Yeah, they had to re-release the album, but just as all of the demos.

So this is the original version. It was a terrific record, and it's terrible that that happened to them. This was one of my absolute favorite bands when I was, I guess, around 20 years old when this came out and I used to go and see them all the time.

I used to go see them and the Grievous Angels and the 13 Engines. Right. I was a big fan of them as well. More and all that stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What's funny about that

is Dave Alexander was a huge Skydiggers fan and was at all the Skydiggers shows as well so Lawrence and David were probably at the same shows together not knowing each other I was probably standing in front of him he was like that guy's taller than me he should be behind me

speaking of Christmas shows you got Skydiggers near Christmas time at the Horseshoe that's an annual staple just recently I got to I felt very lucky. I got an invite to go to Revolution Recording where Andy and his band recorded a live album on the floor of the studio

that maybe will come out next year. And it was a wonderful thing to sit and watch. They're just terrific. I think he's a fantastic singer and I've always been a big fan. And it's great to sing along to the Skydiggers. I think he told me that I Will Give You Everything was the first song he ever wrote. Like that was the first song he ever wrote.

It's a pretty decent way to start off with an upper. Although maybe he's modified the story. Who knows? But that's what he says. Anyways, in public there. He's like, hey, I got an idea. I got an idea. How about this one?

I confused Andy Mays with the guy who fixed my furnace because I had, the guy who fixed my furnace, long story, but my phone, I had the names

in the wrong, the numbers under the wrong names and I left a message for Andy that he had to come back because it was like minus 20 and the kids were freezing

and Andy nicely let me know I had the wrong guy. So it's fine. You're going to say the guy came out and said, this is the first furnace I've ever fixed. Next time I had the wrong guy. You're going to say the guy came out and said, this is the first furnace I've ever fixed. Next time I tell this story,

I'm going to have Andy over here fixing my furnace. Let's kick out another one. All right Hey Please don't tell me something Something I don't wanna hear The sea something I don't want to hear. The sea's falling down without making a sound, and a rumfresh won't even go near. All right, all right, it's all right. All right, all right, it's all right.

All right, all right, it's all right. All right, all right, it's all right. Cadillac Tramps, alright This would be honorary CanCon Yeah, those guys are from Orange County And we actually played with them Most of the time we played with them at the Town Pump in Vancouver One time And they opened for us

And I was the only guy The other guys were all in the dressing room I was the only guy on the floor watching them And story goes, I sort of walked in And I was the only guy the other guys were all in the dressing room I was the only guy on the floor watching them and story goes I sort of walked in and I was white as a ghost and they said I was like we gotta fucking crank it up tonight man

those guys are incredible so they were doing what you're hearing now and then we had to go on after them so it taught us a very valuable lesson because we became fast friends with them and anytime we had to go on after them, we hit the stage running. You know, like you hit the stage at the place where you might have been when you go off to do your own course because you're so pumped.

Right, right, right. So we became friends. And as I say, they're from Orange County, California. But they spent so much time in Toronto and in Canada touring around. And we went down the west coast of the States with them as well. But Gabby, their singer, would tell me that, you that you know I said do you ever have trouble getting into Canada he said no no he said we have no trouble getting into Canada he said we have trouble getting back into the United States because they'd go they were all like you know fairly big tattooed dudes that actually met in prison and formed their band in rehab because

they were all on very dangerous courses and they had this rule that you know the band would keep them all alive if they were in the band to the point where we were on tour one night uh with them and we didn't know this i didn't know about the origin story so i asked their bass player warren if he wants to come out drinking with us and he was kind of like hemming and hawing and he's he's like yeah maybe and i was like okay and came back knocked later and he's like no i'm I'm not going to come. And then I found out the next day that they had a band rule that if anybody fell off the wagon, they beat the shit out of them. You know, because that was the way they could deal with it, right?

Yeah, fantastic people. And Gabby actually just died last year. Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. Yeah, very prematurely. Because, you know, they all had very tough lives. And I think it caught up to Gabby, but he died of cancer. That's too bad. Yeah.

But they reign supreme in the mythology of our band, for sure. Absolutely. It's called hate. It goes like this. Yeah. Although I'm going to need a ruling, Lawrence, because Orange County, I'm not sure I can allow that one.

But I'm going to let it. Since now that he's passed, I'm going to let that in. Yeah. There you go. There you go. Sorry to learn that in. There you go. Sorry to learn that news. But yeah, they were a big part of the story. Yeah, for sure.

And I think, you know, sorry, I was just going to say, they also kind of were a big inspiration with the band Lawrence and I had after the Los Alos called the Rusty Nails. There was a lot of that kind of bluesy, punky. We covered one of their songs as well. We covered the song their songs as well. We covered the song Venice.

Cool. All right. Ready for the next jam. I think I know what's next. guitar solo There's a tune, I bring it in my ear That always starts me singing There's a doubt that is hiding with my fear Something starts it stinging, yeah And my head starts to spin and to sink

And my arms are too tired to feel Here we are in this slow boat Wishing for a sail Wishing for a Sail. Also, I think, a big part of the story. And, you know, I guess a theme.

There's two people on this recording that are not with us anymore. James Julian, the bass player, and Larry Grimes, the singer, are both gone.

Yeah, they were a real spark plug. You know, and again, speaking about Junior Gone Wild and it being an artistically inspirational thing, I think Dig Circus, I wouldn't say so much was an artistic inspiration to us as much as we love the band and their music.

They make different kind of music than us, but I remember Steve and David and I used to, before we even had a bass player for Los Lowe, we used to go to the Free Times Cafe and do these open stages, bring new songs out, try them. And, you know, there's a bit of a quagmire in that folk scene, which is that something that we used to refer to

as canoe songs. You know, like there would be seven people playing what we would, you know, call canoe songs in a very derogatory manner. Just, you know, straight up folk music, right? And then these guys came running in one day out of nowhere seven of them or six of them however many there were and jamie was wearing a top hat with the top cut out with his hair sticking out of the top of the top hat and it was literally like what the like we're we've been sort of home invaded you

know it was like and then they just literally ran up on stage and played their songs which kind of blew us away and just the energy the manic energy it, the circus of it, they became fast friends with us. And, you know, we played shows together. I name dropped them on Pellucid Genia. And Larry and I actually, the singer, were kind of partners in crime in some very deep, dark ways all through the early 90s and uh that i think i guess that caught up with larry in the aughts but uh yeah big inspiration for us oh and some of the you know guys in the dig circus went on to become fembots as well uh another group that incredibly great group that are friends of ours i noticed the jams are short like relatively speaking i think none of them hit four minutes i don't think well Well, not yet. Probably one.

There's probably one, but yeah, I noticed that too. It's because we're not hippies, Mike. Yeah. I remember the last time we were here, I edited down the 11-minute song to a respectable five and a half. Last time I kicked out the jam,

somebody picked The Doors, The End. No kidding. Yeah. Wow. You know what? It was acid test. Did you ever, do you know?

Speaking of musicians, Steve Fall, who they only recently got back together actually, but he's a guitar teacher to make cash. Not too far from here actually, but yeah,

he kicked out because he loved Apocalypse Now and The End is prominent there, but it's like, I don't know how many minutes it is, but it's maybe 14 or something. I think Jim Morrison and Francis Coppola went to school together.

Is that right? At a certain point, yeah. It was like, it might have been at, Reform School? It might have even been at film school or something like that. I did not know that.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I read that. Don't hesitate to bury me in fun facts like that. Yeah. Crazy about them. It might be a quasi fact. I don't know. You can look that up. I'll Google it later. You can Google it later. An alternative fact. An alternative fact. Crazy about them. It might be a quasi-fact. I don't know. You can look that up. I'll Google it later.

You can Google it later. An alternative fact. An alternative fact. Oh my goodness. Now let's hear the next jam. The next jam. Someone always leaves that light on I have dreams that little boys burn a house They set afire the ivy

in the window pane up from the ground Fire drills and skilful uniform Wallpaper's warm Wallpaper's warm He's gone up He's gone up

He's gone up to lie down I stand, I wait He's gone up, he's gone up, he's gone up to lie down. I stand, I wait, and I go quietly. What's a minute hand? How could it be stolen from you? Cold tap. Dental freeze Weeping tile Cold snap

What a jam this is. Holy smokes. Love it. I think it's under three minutes too. It's just all killer no filler as they say.

That'll be Is that Colin playing guitar? Colin Cripps? Oh, no, he was in Crash Vegas. Luther. Luther. He's the right color. He's the right, okay.

There you go. Yeah, another comrades of ours. I really like Sarah Harbour. What a boss, huh? Like, just great Yeah, there's a real thing about You know, when I listen to this Some of the vocal choices

Some of the note choices Are really incredible Because it's a You know, it's a pop song Sort of But it's got all this Sort of art rock You know

Like jazz notes in it You know That one You know, they're not where you would expect them to go set your teeth on edge in a good way that's instinct that's what that is powerful

can't teach that stuff you could parse it later on run a little clinic about it but it's not an exact science you could teach to make a living while you were writing it and run a little clinic about it, but it's not an exact science. You could teach to make a living while you were writing it. Fantastic. We played a few gigs with Weeping Tile.

Yeah, and I used to go see Sarah when she was in the Saddle Tramps, which was before that, and back at the old Diamond Club. The old Diamond Club. The old Diamond Club. Ay, ay, ay. Ready to kick out another one? Sure, bring it. There's more music from the 90s?

What? What? You decide the place you want to set But it's never fast and you know how fast it hasn't done it yet Take your time and it ends up taking mine Baby, you and me, the company we hide And I spent hours on the way To change the view and rain to lay Sour Landslide Human Rain Delay. These were some of the people that,

under the name The Coles, opened up the Shakespeare My Butt cassette and CD release party at the Ultrasound Show Bar in 1991. Wow. I guess The Coles broke up and D and Vince... Was Vernon The Coles? I don't think so

I don't think he was I think Sour Landslide was what remained and and they were another band that we toured we toured with them

across Canada in the Rusty Nails after Lowest to the Low but did lots of gigs with them yeah I lost the low I toured with them in 90

oh that's right you brought the hockey sticks with us yeah yeah yeah. The Nets. The weirdest moment there being we played First Avenue in Minneapolis where they shot perpouring. And we were opening for Shonen Knife, another blast from the 90s.

And we showed up. We got there super early for some reason. So we brought the Nets into the club with the sticks and set up on the dance floor and started playing ball hockey. And all the guys, all these Minneapolis dudes that were in the rigging and everything all came out of the ceiling and everything oh my god yeah and they grabbed the hockey sticks and started playing us and then shonen knife the japanese women from shonen knife walked out on the stage like completely like what the hell is going on and i think later on that tour vince the writer he's a huge Replacements fan and I'm a huge Clash fan.

And we got into what can only happen in your 20s in a band house on the road, which is we got in a late night kitchen argument over which band was better. And we at some point and we both love each other and, you know, and loved each other through this whole thing. It was, you know, a sort of loving antagonism. But we were really, really ramping each other up and at a certain point it seemed sensible for us to take all the empty bottles that we had drank while we were fighting about this and throw them through the glass kitchen window so we basically took out all the windows in the kitchen of the band house while while the rest of our bands slept in the other room and you know incongruously got up the next day and we're like what that's rock rock and roll, man. We played with Sour Landslide.

Strangely, we never solved the argument either. We played with them the night Princess Diana died. We were in Edmonton that night. Yeah, yeah. I don't remember what year that was, but I remember. 97. 97. So that's, oh boy.

In the 90s, I think Sour Landslide, I always thought they were the best band. Everybody we knew. I thought they were just better than everybody. He's only telling me this now. I just thought, I was just like, oh man,

I wish I could be that good. And yeah, and you know, I don't know. Are we playing a lot of songs that people don't know? So I can tell you, I'm ashamed to admit this,

but I'm going to tell you, real talk, I don't know Sour Landslide. I don't know this band. I don't think you're alone there. They were a band that could go and they could play a great show and they did it all across Canada and really win people over, but it just

never seemed to happen for them. I never understood though. Frustratingly, they also were critically acclaimed. So they were critically acclaimed and they always were fan favorites with our fans anytime we played. And it got so hard for them that it was like,

after two or three records that didn't sell enough, didn't sell as many records as they wanted to and just it didn't seem to be building, Vince went a bit crazy and was threatening to bury all his instruments in the backyard. Dee, the drummer, is also his partner. She had to hijack all the instruments out of there and hide them at her mom's house.

Wow. Because he was literally going to bury them. I always wondered for a band like Sour Landslide, was it just a question of like they needed, I don't know, because Moe Berg was just here and he was talking about how they just filmed that video for I'm an Adult Now and a lurk. They tried to drop it off at like 299 Queen Street and then suddenly it's on high rotation

on Much Music and he said the rest is history. Like that was it.. Is it just they needed a hit to get played? Well, that's the thing with them. They had nothing but hits. All their songs are that catchy. That sounds catchy, poppy, power poppy. Every song was just a gem.

They were so deliberately catchy. So they mismanaged? Is it a record? I get a lot of great bands in here that talk about the record company. Maybe that's it. I don't think they were managed. Yeah. Anyway, you know, yeah. We were mismanaged. They were not managed at all.

Those are the choices in the 90s, mismanaged or not managed at all. But anyway, kudos. I mean, they're still one of my favorites, you know, things when I think about the 90s. I could hum any number of Sour Landslide songs and instantly be happier. I got some catching up to do.

Yeah. Here's another jam. piano plays softly My city's still breathing but barely it's true Through buildings gone missing like teeth The sidewalks are watching me think about you Sparkled with broken glass I'm back with scars to show

back with the streets I know will never take me anywhere but here The stain in the carpet, this drink in my hand The strangers whose faces I know We meet here for our dress rehearsal to say I wanted it this way

Wait for the year to drown Spring forward, Fall back down I'm trying not to wonder where you are The weaker than's left and leaving. Weaker than's are amazing. I'm just going to start with that, Lawrence. Now it's your turn. Yeah, they're amazing amazing this has got us

all the way up to year 2000 now I think hasn't it oh Ron and I along with Jules Penner opened for the Weaker Thans

at the album release for this in Winnipeg we did two nights at the West End Cultural Center I think

this is a great album Left and Leaving by the Weaker Thans it's We did two nights at the West End Cultural Center, I think. This is a great album, Left and Leaving, by the Week of Ends. It really is wonderful. I want to say that Stephen Brunt kicked this out on his jam list. Oh, did he? Yeah. Oh, nice. Have you ever done his Newfoundland Songwriter Festival? I don't know if you know if it exists, but yeah, you'd be perfect. Anyway. Does it happen in Newfoundland songwriter festival. I don't know if you know if it exists. But yeah, you'd be perfect.

Anyway. Does it happen in Newfoundland? It happens in Newfoundland, yeah. And is it songwriters? It's Canadian songwriters. And Stephen Brunt is on the committee that organizes it. Does he do stand-up comedy as well? No stand-up,

but he's a Newfoundlander. Of course he does. He lives all summer in Newfoundland. He's got He's a Newfoundlander. Of course he does. He lives all summer in Newfoundland. He's got a place in Newfoundland. We should all be so lucky. So, Weaker Thans,

though, I was telling somebody this the other day that they were on G7, the first record, I think, was on G7,

and that's Propagandhi's label, Chris Hanna from Propagandhi. So, I was friends with Chris Hanna. It's on your guitar.

Yeah, I was friends with Chris Hanna and I emailed him your guitar. Yeah, I was friends with Chris Hanna, and I emailed him one day, or probably didn't email him, probably telephoned him and said, look, none of your records are in the stores in Toronto. And I said, if you send me the records, I will take them around on my bike and distribute them. I'll be your distributor on my bike. So I was doing that to Soundscapes and Rotate

and all this kind of stuff, driving them around. And so my payback was that he sent me all the records off on the label, check them out. And, you know, there's an awful lot of German metal and, you know, stuff like that. So I would be checking stuff out, stuff would be going into a pile that I was probably not going to listen to again. And then I put Fowl in, which is the record before this one, and was just blown away. And, you know, and it was one of those aha moments where you sort of, I often reference the raft of the Medusa, you know, that Jericho painting where it's like a raft. I was always sort of saying, you know,

like we're just floating around in this society that I don't feel super comfortable in all the time. And when you meet somebody cold, you know, like not somebody you've known for a while or whatever, but you meet somebody cold who seems to think the same way you do or, you know, is part of your tribe or whatever. It's like, hey, you're on the raft.

And I remember feeling like the weaker thanns were on the raft. My lovely lady Alex is in Winnipeg right now rehearsing music with Christine Fellows, whose husband is John K. Sampson. And they're going to be playing some shows in the next couple of weeks. They'll be at the Burdock in Toronto next Sunday, I want to say, in a week and a half. Also an early and a late show.

Early and a late show. Christine Fellows is wonderful, wonderful. I was going to say this. I was going to say small world, but it is a small Canadian music world, right? It's a big country, but a small world for sure. By the way, Lawrence, I don't know why, but there's 11 jams on your list.

Right now, I was looking at the list and I had one missing because I had 10 and I'm like, why am I missing a jam? That's what I was doing over there. Top 11. We went up to 11. Spinal tap. Are we allowed to play 11?

I make the rules around here. I'm going to allow it. Also, one of these was an American act, so technically now we're back to 10 Canadian acts with a bonus jam. So we'll see how it all works out here. 10 Canadians and then... All right.

Here we go. Wow. Proxy by proxy And the sound remains To be delivered In such a way We wish it in here And a wish is here Yeah

Proxy. This song should have been a monster hit. I don't understand why it wasn't. This just calls out for windows rolled down and driving around in the summertime. I was going to say, how come Weezer can have monster hits? You know what I mean? This is better than anything Weezer ever did. Right, right. And it's Canadian. I don't know. I don't know what the summertime i was gonna say how come weezer can have monster hits and then you know what i mean like what's better than anything we ever did right right and it's canadian i don't

know i don't know the answer this was independently released vaguely sloan asked about it as well so this is from 2001 um this is the second blertonio record ian blerton was in a band called change of heart He was a change of heart for years and years and years and years. And then he sort of struck out on his own. And this is the second Blurtonia record. And right around the time he was doing this, he had already produced one of the Rusty Nails records and he produced that Weaker Thans album that we just heard from. So he was part of the story for sure. And in a couple of years down the road he would produce Sorted Fiction for Lois to the Lo as well, so

he was growing an enormous beard and working with us all at the same time. Simultaneously. And this song is so fantastic. I could see it growing as we were recording. Yeah, so, again. Yeah, I'd say Ian maybe falls into the category of a lot of bands

that are sort of undersung for sure, right? I think so. Ian as a writer, I think, undersung. Ian has, I think, a certain legendary status, but I don't know that enough people actually know his music. I think more people should. He's got an incredible body of work. They don't hand you $5 a day for being a living legend. Nope.

body of work. They don't hand you $5 a day for being a living legend. Nope. On that first tour that I talked about earlier in 1990, we were one day behind Change of Heart. Everywhere we went, there were empties. We were still sitting around the band rooms and stuff. I feel Change of Heart, again, I'm going back to Much Music, that tells you how much

of an impression it made on me, but Change of Heart, I remember, you know, they got video play on Much Music. That's the thing, this idea of the visuals of great success, right? Because we suffer from it too. In Buffalo, we go to Buffalo, people think we're massive rock stars, right? There's all kinds of assumptions about cars we drive and blah, blah, blah. There's the optics of success.

And I think Ian as well, like you said, even if you get to Pursuit of Happiness and Moe Berg and stuff like that, there's a certain sense of it always seems much bigger than it really is. And that's not to undercut it, because I think it's big in a more important way, like more personally and more directly, is more important to me anyway, but there's this sense out there that

the visuals of it are that we're all giant rock stars. Do either of you know Molly Johnson personally by any chance? I met her. I used to know her in the 80s and early 90s. Way back in 83 when she was in 84, when she was in Alto Moda.

Sure. I only bring it up because I had an interesting episode with like literal episode like of Trotter Mike with Molly Johnson which is unlike any others and Lawrence if you want to check it out it's a bit of a roller coaster ride sure did it go sideways is that what you're saying

yeah it's the only 400 episodes almost and I have one that went sideways and it was molly johnson and it was it was sideways before i even pressed record it had gone sideways and uh anyway yet i don't even do it justice talking about it except uh it's like i train wreck i can't look away it's there but uh but i uh did talk to her about how like because molly johnson was on our televisions back when tv was the there was an internet right and that was a big deal you're on our televisions in our living room or family room whatever in a basement whatever you're there there is a perception that uh yeah you're driving around in a cadillac or something because you must be rich and famous because you're on tv

like there is that perception and you get the what i what I find is Molly really set me straight very quickly to let me know like she takes the TTC everywhere because she's a Canadian famous musician and she says, you're thinking of an American famous musician and the equivalent, potentially the equivalent in America might have a driver

of his Cadillac potentially. It's a whole... It's a difference in the market size. And I mean, that could also be a fallout of the CanCon rules as well, because your video would show up on MuchMusic or on Toronto Rocks or on VideoHeads right next to Bon Jovi, for example. And so you're being...

Let's also not forget the Bubles and the Dions and the Morissettes. I mean, there have been giant Cadillacs. Sure, but just the perception thing that you're talking about, the people, they see you right next to the same level as those people. And they're like, well,

yeah. So we put, we do it like a equivalency thing. We figure it's not an unreasonable thing for people to imagine, though. You know, I mean, just,

but she's right. The reality is, is that, you know, there's perhaps not, not as much automatic glamor associated with, with having a video on. So your homework is to listen to the Molly Johnson episode

and get back to me. Oh, okay. Your thoughts. That's your homework. Are you okay? It's August. I'm still recovering, but we're going to be okay. Let's kick out.

And by the way, again, other than the Weaker Thans track, everything's under four minutes, which is kind of cool. I think this next one's super short. It's in the title title so let's go yeah it's better than last time but something about the tone is wrong it's only a half an average song but it's better than nothing it's wailing from somewhere it wants it to wail from somewhere else it sounds like a million silver bells and it sounds like a single

but something about the tone is wrong it It's in the delivery, the action is gone. It's only a half an average song, but it's telling you something. The Two Minute Miracles. So it's, yeah, the answer was in the band name, not the song name, but half an average song. Yeah, I just love this one. This is Andy McGoffin singing and playing instruments for you there. Andy ran a studio in London, Ontario, called the House of Miracles, and produced a lot of music that people would have heard.

The first Constantine's record was done there. He made, I think, a great remote recording of the Great Lakes Swimmers on one of their albums. I think it was called Bodies and Minds. I think it was that one. Jim Guthrie's Now More Than Ever record. He did that. He's currently, well, if they're still going,

he plays bass for Raised by Swans and makes their recordings. And I think the House of Miracles is now in Cambridge, where he runs a recording studio. And I just always loved the way that he made music sound. I think he captured it really, really wonderfully. And the Two Minute Miracles was his project, where he would record himself.

And he wrote these really, really quirky... And they all have to be two minutes long. It was a loose rule. But some of them, the first song on their second album was 20 seconds long. So, I mean, they varied in length, but they were, for the most part, fairly brief.

And Half an Average Song is just... This is a lovely, lovely little song about, I guess, subjectivity and, you know, confidence. Had you closed with this being the 10th jam today, then you would have opened with the cliché song, then you would have opened with the cliche song and you would have closed with half an average song. It would have made you seem really smart, I would think that was.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Another lost opportunity. But instead, I mean, I think, and bravo, Andy McGoffin. I think Two Minute Miracles is still available on iTunes and everything. They haven't put out an album in a while, but it's all good. Go and check it out.

But I think we're just finishing with the biggest baller song we could think of from last year. We're skipping all the way ahead to 2017. Here it is. There you go. I look up at the sky I thought that I could see I don't want wanna be paid back Your relief is an end Walk away, walk away, girl

If you know what's good to do Walk away, walk away walk away girl if you know what's good to you walk away walk away girl if you know what's good to do

if you know what if you know what weaves walk away Yeah, just a great song. One of the best songs I've heard in the last few years. I just think this one rocks. Great tune. This, to me, too, speaks to what we were talking about before

about generations of music because this, to me, is such a Pixies song. Like, it's the Pixies, basically, with a female singer and, you know, just such a Pixies song. Like, it's the Pixies, basically, with a female singer. And, you know, just the idea of where the guitars go, it's completely like that, what's happening right now. Just all, you know, very schooled in the Pixies, which is awesome. All those lines, you know.

And it just makes me think that, you know, obviously there's aspects of other things in there, but like... There's a little wisp of Pat Benatar in there too, I insist. But it's all usable, you know, it's like all where we come from, and it's... Yeah, these guys are great. And Jasmine Burke's a great singer too. Just a killer voice on here. This too sort of goes with Pixies, right?

Now I just hear Pixies now that Ron mentioned it. Which you can't go wrong with that, though. Yeah, no. Well, there's worse bands too. That's another band that, you know, like the visuals would lead you to believe they were probably more economically successful than they were, right? Yeah.

Although I do now hear them in a lot of ads for things. Like particularly, what's the song? She has Gigantic. Yeah, I think that's like a massive Apple campaign or something like that. Well, you know, I think that's like a massive Apple campaign or something like that. Something like that. Well, you know, I think this happens a lot, right? Which is, I think, and people usually let it slide,

is the sort of karmic payoff that some bands like that get, which is that, you know, they basically helped create an entire genre of music that, you know, people like Nirvana and, you know, everybody sort of carried on with and made lots and lots and lots of money doing. And then, you know, they never really made tons of money. I don't think the Pixies and then they broke up. And so I think a lot of times a reunion that will happen like that. And then you'll see some placements and stuff like that.

Their fan base who might've been, you know, maybe ticked off at that before sort of goes, you know, hurrah. They sort of clap a little bit and say like it's their time to kind of... Like these guys. These guys are pretty good. You'd think they'd be more economic than successful. Like this. I can totally hear lowest to low in this.

I will say, though, the way I measure success is the smile on your face. You both seem like you're happy, content people. And that to me is amazing. I got a lasagna, six beers. I got a lasagna, six beers. We just listened to some great Canadian tunes.

Thanks so much for doing that. We had a great conversation. We got to kick out the jams. You played live. I mean, this was unbelievable for me. And I think people will love hearing this. Thank you for having us back. That's very nice of you.

Remember, I think it's 45 to 60 minutes at 350. Well, we can go back and listen to this tape. Although there might actually be a label on the tin probably, but it's additional service.

I tell you how to cook your lasagna. Wow. And again, Shakespeare, my box, you can pre-order it now and everyone listening,

you should go do that. Just go to lowestofthelow.com and you can click on the link there. And get her done. Yeah, and you can go to that. Go to lowestofthelow.com and you can click on the link there. And get her done. Yeah, and you can go to our YouTube page. Just Google our YouTube page and listen to Lazy Days and hear a new song. Well, then Ron's going to say, and drink some

Great Lakes beer from the... Okay. No, Ron only drinks Canada Dry now. Is my lasagna just clean? And that brings us to the end of our 398th show. You can follow me on Twitter. I'm at

Toronto Mike. Lowest of the Low is at Lowest of the Low. Our friends at Great Lakes Brewery are at Great Lakes Beer. Propertyinthe6.com is at Raptors Devotee. Tough night last night for the Raps. Palma Pasta is at Palma Pasta.

Fast Time Watch and Jewelry Repair is at Fast Time WJR. And Paytm is at Paytm Canada. See you all next week. It's been eight years of laughter and eight years of tears. And I don't know what the future can hold or do for me and you But I'm a much better man for having known you Oh, you know that's true because Everything is coming up rosy and green Yeah, the wind is cold but the smell of snow won't stay today

And your smile is fine and it's just like mine The wind is cold, but the smell of snow won't speed the day. And your smile is fine, and it's just like mine, and it won't go away. Because everything is rosy and gray. Well, I'll try that. Well, I've been told that there's a sucker born every day. He's stalling.