Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Lowest of the Low Return: Toronto Mike'd #479

Episode Date: June 19, 2019

Mike chats with Ron and Lawrence from Lowest of the Low about Agitpop, their new album, TMLX3 and controversial comments made about them by a member of The Watchmen.

We do not want to be the lowest of the low. We are not a nation in decline. Welcome to episode 479 of Toronto Mic'd, a weekly podcast about anything and everything. Proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, Propertyinthe6.com, Palma Pasta, Fast Time Watch and Jewelry Repair, StickerU.com, and Capadia LLP CPAs. I'm Mike from TorontoMike.com and joining me are Ron Hawkins and Lawrence Nichols from Lowest of the Low. Hello, Mike.

Hey, Mike, what's up? Welcome back. Lawrence, you were a, Mike, what's up? Welcome back. Lawrence, you were a little late, but Ron and I were talking, and I guess you thought this was Ron's third appearance, but it's Ron's fourth appearance, your third appearance.

So you're going to have to come solo once to catch Ron. Oh, man. Always a pleasure. Story of my life. And I also know for a fact, because I know Lawrence listens to Toronto Mike, but you have not listened to the Gino Vanelli episode.

No, sadly I'm a little behind in my podcast listening. I feel bad about that, but I hear it's a good one. Because I was going to say, if you don't like my question, just break into song. This is the move. What am I going to do? I'm going to shut up and listen. Deflect your inquiries. This is the move. What am I going to do? I'm going to shut up and listen. Deflect your inquiries.

So guys, amazing. Lots to cover here. You have a new album out. What's the name of your new album? It's called Agitpop. Agitpop. And that's, tell us, that name means something, right?

I learned this since you put it out, that Agitpop. Yeah, it's a sort of a bastardization of agitational propaganda which would be called agit prop in the 20th century early 20th century i think a lot of artists that were socialists uh and a lot of socialist governments uh you know namely in the soviet union in spain they they would hire people and uh press people into uh serving the revolution with their art. And that was called agitational propaganda, agit-prop. We decided to twist it into agit-pop

because these are pop songs. Yes, and it's voluntary, completely. Yeah, sort of. We're going to play, if you're okay with it, I'm going to play every song on this new album. Okay. We're going to go for lunch. There's 14 songs on there. No, you can't because I'm going to start it up, let it go a bit, bring it down, play every song on this new album like we're gonna we're gonna we're gonna go for lunch yeah

there's 14 songs on there you can't because i'm gonna start it up let it go a bit bring it down and then we're gonna if you guys chime in and tell us like what's the song about what inspired it any fun facts or tips or whatever you want to share like uh that'll be amazing so that'll be the the second half of this episode will be. There's 14 cuts on this album too. So you get your money's worth. Absolutely. We had to pare it down. Is that right?

Yeah, there were 17. I don't know. There might have been 23. There's a lot of songs being considered. And there were a couple of outliers that maybe we would have had to cram thematically. We would be cramming them on because they weren't quite as tightly thematically wound as the ones that are on there so i was gonna say like because now like music primarily is bits and

bites like does it matter like do you have to cut anymore like if you have a song like why not 17 instead of 14 like is there any because we already did that oh that's pretty my butt so um i mean we wanted to we wanted to to fit it all on physical media still because we have people that like us like buying stuff. So I mean, sure, in the digital age, you can have an album that runs three hours if you want. Plus, I think we're all, too, a person, are still in the world of sequencing a journey for people

when we make records. And I know that a lot of people will say, well, that's not how music is listened to anymore. I would say that that's not how listen music is listened to now, but I'm not positive that we won't swing back around to it because there's something lost from not listening that way, you know?

And just like, you know, like gated snares and things that happened in the eighties that everybody goes, Oh God, I can't believe everybody, you know, if you were in,

is that Phil Collins fault? Is that, I think he did it in the 80s that everybody goes oh god i can't believe everybody you know if you were in is that phil collins fault is that i think he did it in the air tonight i don't want to make this weird connection but i think he's the nirvana of gated reverb which is that he did it pretty well that's a pretty amazing sounding thing yeah and then a whole bunch of people did poor jobs of abusing it you know like i always understood that in uh in the air tonight right is that the song no yeah yeah uh yeah right that that was like the first time okay yeah yeah yeah all right so it's all phil collins he had quite the run though i was actually i was listening i don't know why but yeah he had quite the run in the mid 80s i was listening to this thing about like elton john and george michael as like these imperial artists one like having this Imperial period in the seventies and then George

Michael in the eighties. But Phil Collins, like he had this run with Genesis and solo, like just a hit machine, like everything he touched turned to gold. So yeah. Gold. Yeah.

No, but my point about him and the gated reverb was just that, you know, if it's, if, if we could transport ourselves to 1986 and we're making a record, everybody would be suggesting we gate the reverb on the snare and you know certain lindrum snares that we now are you know sort of widely not used and i think we came out of it sort of like came out of a dream

like oh what the what why did we do that for the decade you know right you know what the bass needs more chorus yeah exactly oh man things they might have actually said back then okay so a lot of times when people think the lowest of the low they think like indie band like we think independent band but this is like a warner release right yeah like so what tell me like how does that work like all of a sudden you signed to warner canada can you like what's that about talk about steve ron you you know steve well i was gonna say uh you know anybody who knows the lowest low would know that it's the most lowest of the low thing you could do would be to wait till your sixth record to do that um just because we're contrary but um no i think what it

is is that you know i've stated this over and over that we went through uh our early years with the low with everybody wanting to adopt us as the indie freedom fighters. And, you know, I can't count the kinds of, you know, the gorilla pop, you know, the blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, the freedom fighters, local heroes, and, you know, on and on. And it's like, not that we weren't trying to do that or doing that, but we were doing that sort of because that's the shoes that fit, you know, we tried on all the other shoes and they didn't fit. They were too tight.

They were too weird. And, you know, and really no major wanted major wanted us we tried all the majors but none of them wanted us so we became indie freedom fighters by uh by necessity and then we realized oh this actually suits us best anyway but so you know we on every record i think we sort of make that decision and then of course for some for some years you know nobody wanted to put it at records because we were getting older and we live in a pop world where old people are gross so now hallucinogenia though that was uh a and m right that's uh yeah they well we they they uh pnd'd it so they uh so we made that record and we originally uh signed to lsd records um london smith discs yeah uh and they were run by a pirate basically they were run by a lunatic uh young man who was sort of purchased i think it was bought for him

by his father or i feel like they put him there to keep him from doing other things so we you know he was our kind of people when we when we met insane people on the road we always like do you have a record label or you know or do you have a house we can stay in? All right, I'm playing a little Billy Bragg because... Because only a couple of weeks ago, Danny Graves from The Watchmen was here. And you, Ron, you, not lowest and low, right? Ron, you opened for the Watchmen

at the Danforth Music Hall fairly recently. Yeah, last December. And you and Danny did the song, right? New England? The whole band, you know. Danny and I traded off verses. Very cool. Very cool.

And when you, when you kicked out the jams, was there a Billy Bragg in there? Do you remember? Like, do you remember if you had a, do you guys remember? I don't know.

I don't think there was. Okay. It seems like an oversight now, but you have to come back for part two. Yeah. I have to kick some more. There's so much good music. I know.

Even Bill gets overlooked sometimes. Yeah. And you only got five each, so it's not like you had your full jams. That's true. Yeah. All right. so I'm playing. So Danny Graves mentioned he had a great time singing this with you, Ron.

And there's a drummer on The Watchmen. He's been on the show too, Sammy Cohn. So let me cause a little, I want to cause a little like... Bands have drummers, don't they? They had a drummer, I didn't notice that. Let me cause a little controversy. So just to set the stage here,

I was a guest on a podcast by Cam Gordon called Completely Ignored, and we recorded it at Twitter Canada, where Cam works. And this podcast is co-hosted by Sammy Cohn, drummer for The Watchmen. He's also a real estate sales representative, but I can't talk about that because I have a sponsor

who's a real estate sales representative. You can only have one. So we're on this podcast. And the premise of the podcast is the guest brings, it doesn't physically bring, but brings a album to like to tout and to like celebrate. So I decided to bring Shakespeare My Butt. Because as i mentioned you

guys it's uh it's one of my favorite albums of all time so i brought shakespeare my butt and i pulled some clips so i'm gonna let sammy speak for sammy because he did this on the podcast so i've got a few clips about 30 seconds each but i'll let you respond after each but let's start with the first one i have to admit in the early 90s, the band, The Watchmen, we didn't really understand the appeal of this band. I mean, this was before hearing the album, so it's really safe to say it was just sort of an attitude that we saw uh, such a strong opinion people had about this band. They just loved, love, love this band.

And I remember, I think we might've been on a bill with them in Ottawa or something. And I remember specifically thinking, okay, and this is going to sound kind of rough. Like what is the big deal? Okay. So that's the,

that he starts with this. Okay. And remember I'm there to celebrate lowest of the low. So, I mean, I don't know if you have a response to that or maybe you need to hear a bit more, but that's how we begin. Yeah, it's not that I don't understand what Sammy's saying.

I think we were always a band that you needed to be hip enough to get. So Sammy just didn't get it. Yeah, that's what I'm... He was into Phil Collins. No, I mean, I don't mean to be pounding my chest, but I just think we're the kind of band, and we still are the kind of band,

that doesn't tick all the boxes that most people who form a band tick, which is that we're not trying to appeal to, we're not trying to get into the mainstream, we're not trying to appeal to the same sorts of, I don't know, not necessarily ear candy or whatever it is at all costs, you know, and we're, and we've always been trying to say some things that are, you know, we're really knocking some

round pegs into square holes in the music industry, you know, so they're not often, they're not welcome, but there is a crew of people out there. There's a tribe out there. And, you know, I'm joking when I say hip enough, I mean, whatever, however you want to put it, you know i'm joking when i say hip enough i mean whatever however you want to put it you know tuned into our frequency enough or a combination of angry and energetic enough whatever it is that you know what it that makes us appealing but i recognize that you know we're the first to say that the wheels are coming off it and back then oh my god the wheels were coming off it every night and you never knew whether the thing was going to fall apart or so that's only charming to a certain group of people most of the time we'd show up with all the wheels on most of the time.

Show up with the wheels on. Most of the time. But then, yeah, then they, I remember looking for some wheels at the end of the show. Yeah. All right.

Hold back some of your fire there because there's more Sammy here. Here's part two. To answer your question, Cam, this is a classic case of just the edge. I think really pushing this band over the top in terms of we are championing this band uh didn't they win a casby or something or yeah well i mean it was that and for years there'd be you know periodically cfny would put out their list of you know the biggest albums of

all time and like this album would be up there with like pearl jam 10 and nirvana never mind like would be in the top 10 and it did not seem out of place based on what they were playing and i mean these songs were in heavy rotation for just years okay so that mainly stage setter here so maybe um we go right but he does say like first of all i've been to a few casby awards like it's not a lucrative thing to win these casby's. They don't give you any money or anything. I don't think we ever won a Caspi. You never won a Caspi? You never won a Caspi. I think eventually

there was a Hall of Fame thing. Oh yeah, we won an Edge Lifetime Achievement Award. We won a... I think the Rusty Nails, we won an Album of the Year at the thing that the Caspis became. Okay, actually in a later clip...

And let's be honest, you know, Shakespeare in My Butt is way better than Pearl Jam 10 anyway. I don't know about Nirvana, but come on. Well, okay. Hold back because he gets back to this idea that you won something. It comes back. But here's part three of Sammy Cohn. So you could use this sort of the overused sort of tragically hip analogy

and what's the big deal people in the states would often say maybe people were just in western canada to your point earlier cameron were just saying okay yeah they're good but why why are they a household name in toronto and can't get arrested in vancouver i i don't know yeah we're kind of you know we're kind of going on a tangent here i know mike wants to talk about what this album means to him and that sort of thing but but it is an important thing to recognize with this band they are they are purely uh a toronto band they'll play they're playing to danforth i think in a few weeks yeah may 31st there you go and uh they certainly couldn't fill the commodore out west i don't i don't think um yeah he's correct oh he's correct about that yeah i don't think like

he's not correct that we're a toronto phenomenon in that uh when he's correct. He's correct about that, yeah. I don't think, like he's not correct that we're a Toronto phenomenon in that when he's talking about this whole edge support and everything, I mean, we went across Canada on a tour opening for Pat Fish and the Jazz Butcher. He was the Jazz Butcher at the time. And, you know, we just, it was kind of a perfect storm for us. We were on fire.

All, you know, all cylinders were pumping and we opened for him and he was releasing probably the saddest most most morose record of his career so the combination between the the firecracker that we were at the time and and the moroseness that pat was at the time uh we went across with him uh and opened for him every night and kind of you know i have to say sort of blew him off the stage every night and then we came back exactly the same way, like weeks later and did the same, you know, slightly smaller, maybe the same places that we did with him. And they were jam packed because we had just been there and, you know, the band was on fire. So Sammy's wrong. He's not wrong

now. I mean, you know, we've, we've spent some time in and out of consciousness and, uh, yeah, it, we, we have become kind of disconnected with Western Canada. It's too bad. You know, we went back, we got to go back and play to a very full commodore ballroom because we were opening for 5440 last was it last year it was thanksgiving two years ago i guess yeah and we had a great time that's their home uh yeah that's their that's their annual that's their annual you know two night stand at thanksgiving down there it was wonderful it was great but yeah we couldn't fill that room on our own. But you know, the whole point with our band too is we don't,

we don't play for imagined abstract audiences. We play for the people that are in front of us. So as long as we can keep those people happy and you know, I mean, how, how far do you extend that? You know, it's like, well, they've never played New Zealand, you know, and eventually it'd be, well, they've never played the space station, you know, it's like, you can, you can reach for whoever might have ever or will exist in the future,

but all you can really do is play for those people, as I said, who are hip enough or tuned in enough to get what your frequency is, and then you play for those people. Before I play the next Sammy clip here, I may chime in to say I was there on May 31st at the Danforth Music Hall, and a full happy crowd, and you guys were fantastic.

So you're right like you play for who's in front of you and we all had a like a blast and i took my buddy cooksy and he was blown away and ron i had a good chat with your mom before the concert because laurence introduced me to your mom and she said something to the effect of like once she found out who i was she's like oh i've heard your show i like it i it, especially when my son is on, I think. So I think she might actually listen to this episode. Well, not to paraphrase Kiefer Sutherland, but Sammy's lucky that my mom isn't on that podcast.

Very good. Okay, part four of Sammy, four of five. Here we go. You know, just we can kind of move on to Mike's favorite songs in the second but i remember because the band the watchmen were we were a winnipeg band but we had a bass player that lived in toronto i remember he loved the lowest of the low and because he was one who listened to the radio and heard them and and he would say yeah these guys are great and i used to

actually tease ken our bass player because he said to me once, I'll never forget this, and to this day I still call him on this. He said to me, yeah, they're like Canada's The Clash. And I just said, no. That might be the root of... And I said, no, they're like Toronto's The Clash. How do you respond to that? Are you Canada's The Clash? The Clash was Canada's The Clash. Yeah, there's only one Clash. Yeah, there's only one Clash. Nobody's The Clash. So is it just that Ken, that comparison

was just too lofty and it broke Sammy's brain and he's been resenting you ever since. Is that what happened there? Oh, I don't know. I think the comparison is very valid in a couple of ways, which is that compared to Phil Collins, let's say, The Clash were a failure.

The Clash, you know, I don't think they ever broke the top 10. Well, maybe with like, Should I Stay or Rock the Casbah, maybe something like that. Yeah, but yeah. Probably their least Clash-like song. CFMY championed that song,

I gotta tell you. They were really pushing it. They won a Casby, I think. You know, and same as us. They went where people wanted to hear them and they played their hearts out. And that's the job. So I'd say that maybe that's a way that we're similar.

We're both interested in social activism. Sure. There's a comparison to be made. Okay, so let's play the final clip of Sam Cohn. So, you know, back... How long was this podcast? I'm just curious about... This is a fantastic perspective. Well, I mean, I'm just curious about – This is a fantastic perspective.

Well, I mean I'm just sort of curious about the whole idea that maybe The Edge had sort of an agenda with these – not that the music wasn't good and people didn't want to hear it, but because they gave them some big pile of money, didn't they win some award again? Yeah, I feel like there was like one of their new rock searches like maybe the year two years before head came in something like that yeah but happy where they got some big pile of money so it's just like okay we're investing in this band let's get them heard i mean yeah okay i need to hear the truth here real talk i think the truth is that head won the money had won the money i remember winning this money yeah we had an elaborate see that being us we had an elaborate plan which is us we had an elaborate

plan which is that we wore uh you know of course we were i mean now we would be able to pull this off with actual clothes but we at the time we had no real clothes so we went the cbc allowed us to rummage through their uh props department and we got these sort of powder blue tuxes and pink tuxes and stuff when we wore them and our plan was we had a sense that we weren't going to win everybody was telling us on the street we were going to win you know and we kept saying look shut up because uh you know it's not obvious and we don't want to be in that position and there's lots of great bands on this up for this award and uh so but our plan because we're theatrical was that we were going to stand up out of our chairs when we didn't win and go we was robbed and we were going to storm out of the

you know like make a big scene scene just because it would be funny. But we, somebody, one of the girlfriends or somebody, maybe our manager, you know, was a voice of reason. And some,

for some miraculous reason we listened, but we didn't do that. But yeah. And head was, but the tuxedos, the tuxedos were there and tuxedos are there. And head was absolutely beautiful because after the show, Brendan or either Brendan or Noah came to me and said,

look, you know, we know that you, like, we're flabbergasted. We thought you guys were going to win. Everybody thought you guys were going to win. If you guys have, like, bought a van or something like that, we can, we'll lend you money, you know, no interest and everything. It was absolutely beautiful, you know, solidarity in the community. Okay, because Sam's under this impression that, I mean, does he think there's, he should know better that there's no,

this money in Canadian music, like that there's some big chunk of money involved in the, this caused an additional incentive, but he says, you know, you were popular and you were good. Isn't that enough reason to play a band on the radio? Like that they're popular and good.

Like do you need it? All right. All right. I'll, I'll leave this be, but one more thing about that too, is that, you know,

like undeniably the edge helped set us up as a band, right? Because they latched onto those songs and they played the shit out of them. Yeah. And we, you know, we were as surprised as anybody because I think might've been, I don't know if Rosengrey was the first one they picked up,

but there's no singing for almost a minute or something. You know, it could break every radio rule. You're right. But in our, and I think in our van and in our minds something you know so it could break every radio rule you're right but in our and i think in our van and in our minds you know the beginning of the end was when the edge started to play the crap out of us because we had already built an amazing grassroots audience that we felt were the totally hip turned on folks that loved our band and when the edge started playing us

you know we had that classic situation that nirvana talked about and everybody talked about which suddenly everybody had a backward baseball cap and you know i had to stop every show and have somebody thrown out because there was some dick you know menacing all the awesome you know young women and men up down at the front that weren't into getting killed you know we kept trying to the mosh pit up and down and side to side not you know front and back and so so it's a you know it's a double-edged sword it's of course we wouldn't be the band we are we wouldn't have a 30-year career if it wasn't for the edge i don't think but at the same time it comes with that cost you know well i think i've been sammy uber yeah well no i'm sammy's gonna listen and he needs you know it's only fair you

get to rebut he put that on a podcast can i also say that i uh we i played that show with those guys in december and they were all lovely guys, including Sammy. Yes, I would say Sammy's a lovely guy. I would further like to say that the very first time I toured Canada, it was August of 1990. And so my very first time in Winnipeg playing music, I was with a group called The Pale Criminal.

And we were playing two nights at the Blue Note Cafe. And the owner of the Blue Note Cafe was a guy named Curtis. And he also ran the Spectrum Club up the street. And between our sets, he said, you've got to come over and see this band that's playing at the Spectrum tonight. And he took us over there. And it was the Watchmen playing.

And I'd never heard of them or heard them. And I was absolutely blown away. I thought they were just great. And got back to Toronto and was telling everybody. Yeah, I always considered them like the Thompson Twins of Canada. Exactly. Awesome. Exactly. Awesome, awesome. And again, back to the edge,

and I've said this a million times, I'll just say it one more time real quick, is that that was the station I was listening to in the early 90s, throughout the 90s, I guess. And they played the shit out of you, as you said, and that was a big reason why I latched on to Shakespeare, my butt, is because they played, whatever, four or five singles off that album all the time.

But the first one I remember, and again, this might be me misremembering, you would know better than me, but the first one I remember is Henry Needs a New Pair of Shoes. No? It wouldn't have been the first one. No, it's funny how my memory...

Eternal Fatalist was the one that came right out of the gate. Henry was like the last one. Remember? We went six deep with shoes? We've gone six deep with shoes. Lawrence, on May 31st you played a great live version of Henry. Was I at all?

You griped at me so much for not playing the last time. I just want to let the people know I helped influence We played it extra hard just for you. I'm going to give you some gifts, thank some partners,

some sponsors, and then we're going to play the Agitpop, the new album from you guys. But first, is now, just about a couple minutes,

can we talk about TMLX3? So this ties in nicely with the beer I'm about to give you. So, on June 27th from 6pm to 9pm, guests and listeners of Toronto Mic'd are invited to Great Lakes Brewery. Hopefully the weather cooperates and we can be on the patio. But it's going to be a fantastic night. All listeners and

previous guests get the first beer is on the house courtesy of Great Lakes Brewery. And sticker you is going to come by and give everybody a Toronto Mike sticker. In fact, I've got a sticker from Sticker U for you guys. Ron and Lawrence, there's piles of stickers there. So the Toronto Mike sticker, it's going to save the room on the guitar right beside Johnny Cash. Can you imagine? But those stickers are courtesy of Sticker U, and they're going to give stickers to everybody at this event. But the whole band won't be there.

I want to be very clear here. Can you shout out the members of Lowest at Low who are not in this room right now? Yes, absent from this podcast and next week's show are David Alexander on the drums. Greg Smith on the bass. And Michael McKenzie on the loud, good guitar. So on June 27th, you two will be there.

Yes. Is that in your calendar, Ron? But you two will not be there. Lawrence and I will be there. There's a surprise. Yeah, we have to be careful. And have you thought at all, like, of course, this is obviously not a full set by Lois and Lo.

We're going to be graced with a performance. And whether you did one song or five songs, you know, we'll be grateful. But have you thought about what We're going to be graced with a performance. And whether you did one song or five songs, we'll be grateful. But have you thought about what you're going to do? Do you want to tease it? We're pretty up. Absolutely haven't thought about it for one second. But Lawrence and I are now symbiotically connected.

If he got up in the middle of the night and started playing guitar, I would wake up in my house and start singing. Is that right? Yeah, we'll be okay. I think we'll be good. You're going to play by ear? Yeah.

And it's your birthday too, right? Yes. It's my 45th. I mean, we might. Maybe you're going to yell some out for the crowd. Maybe we'll give Mike a request or something. Okay, well, amazing. Maybe we'll let Sammy write the set list.

Sammy might be there. He might come with Cam Gordon, actually. He better not. Could you imagine if my home breaks out? That'd be there. He might come with Cam Gordon, actually. He better not. Could you imagine if Rahul breaks out? That'd be amazing. The Watchmen versus the Mosul. The Canrock Wars. It's just, oof.

So people should come because this thing starts at 6. And at 6.30, the Royal Pains. So anybody who heard the greatest hits, what do we call that? The Best of Toronto Mike, Volume 1. My guest was Al, lead singer of the Royal Pains. So anybody who heard the greatest hits, what do we call that? The Best of Toronto Mic Volume 1. My guest was Al, lead singer of the Royal Pains. So they're going to set up their gear. They're going to have all the stuff, the mics, all that

stuff's taken care of. They're going to set it all up on the patio. And they're going to play some covers of some great 90s songs. They're going to do about an hour. Then I'm going to make some speeches. And then hopefully you guys are there, because that's kind of necessary. And at 8-ish, you guys can do whatever it is you're going to make some speeches, and then hopefully you guys are there, because that's kind of necessary. And at 8-ish, you guys can do whatever it is you're going to do.

There is a... We will all be surprised together. There is a question, though, from a listener, and I don't think I took down the guy's name. Yes, I did. Steve Leggett. Will they play Rosie and Gray at TMLX3? But again, you haven't thought about this, but... Well, we haven't decided not to play it.

So, yeah. That's a distinct possibility. Yeah. Stay tuned, Steve. I think, yeah. Okay. So everybody listening should come out. It's going to be fantastic.

There's lots of space on the lawns and stuff. And if it does happen to rain, there is a giant room indoors, but I'm hoping the weather cooperates so we can be on the lawns and stuff. And if it does happen to rain, there is a giant room indoors, but I'm hoping the weather cooperates so we can be on the patio. So TMLX3, you guys will be there. There's a six pack of Great Lakes beer for each of you here. Sweet.

Enjoy or pass on to a loved one who enjoys fresh craft beer. So thank you, Great Lakes Brewery. In my freezer upstairs, there is a lasagna for each of you now as you know it's a lot of lasagna but courtesy of Palma Pasta did you enjoy the lasagna

that sounds like it was a hit so it was good it's very good good so I got a meat for you Lawrence and I got a veggie for Ron that's okay that's totally fine I'm still working off the last one. And again,

palmapasta.com if you want to get your event catered by Palmapasta. They're on Skip the Dishes. You can go to palmapasta.com and find out exactly where they are. I've already given you the stickers but if you go to stickeru.com you can get anything that sticks. I got these decals behind me that are from StickerU.

Stickers, buttons, what do you call it? Temporary tattoos. Anything that sticks, they'll do. So I actually think they're making Agitpop stickers now that I remember. I think StickerU is going to have Agitpop stickers for everybody at this event as well. So that's pretty cool.

Make sure we get one of those for each of you as well. Yeah, thanks. Who else can I thank? Okay, let's go in the time machine here because I want to get to agit pop but on this day 40 years ago so this is do you guys remember 40 years ago are you old enough to remember 40 years ago yeah sure yeah sure all right this was the speaking of hits this was number one on the billboard hot 100 40 years ago this week. It's in that Gator River.

You can play along if you want. Just going to let her get to the lyrics. Donna Summer. Donna Summer, right. She had a moment, eh? Oh, yeah. She had a moment in my imagination, that's for sure. Several moments.

So this song is interesting if you're a... What's that, Donna? What do you need? I've got to finish the podcast. Significant because it went to number one and then it left the charts. It left the top of the charts and then came back. So this is actually like the second round for Hot Stuff being number one on the Billboard Hot 100. So why am I going back in the time? Because Remember the Time is brought to you by Fast Time Watch and Jewelry Repair.

They've been doing quality watch and jewelry repairs for over 30 years. If any of you guys have a watch band that needs fixing or replacement or want to get a new battery installed, mention you heard about Fast Time on Toronto Mic'd and you get 15% off the regular price watch battery installation. They'll clean

jewelry, repair jewelry, fantastic people. So go to Fast Time Watch Repair dot com for a location near you. And speaking of FastTime, their accountant for their business is Capadia LLP CPAs. This is not your father's accountancy firm. I always say to the gentleman there, Rupesh, that he's like the rockstar accountant. He sees beyond the numbers. So if either of you guys want to talk about any business ventures or tax things or need to talk to a CPA, talk to Rupesh. He's offering you guys and anyone listening a complimentary 15-minute consultation. So write me a note, DM me,

or email me. The rockstar accountant would love to hear what you're thinking or your ideas and then give you best practices and good advice. Again, Rupesh sees beyond the numbers. So contact Rupesh. And speaking of real estate agents, Sammy Cohn, I'm sorry, the greatest real estate agent in the GTA is Brian Gerstein at propertyinthesix.com. Here's Brian. Hey, Ryan and Lawrence. Brian Gerstein here, sales representative with PSR Brokerage and proud sponsor of Toronto Might. Looking forward to TMLX free and meeting you guys and hearing you perform. What a treat. 416-873-0292.

The caller texts me for all your real estate needs. Don't forget to navigate propertyinthe6.com where you can do your own real estate searches as well. Are you guys Raptor fans? And did you partake

in any of Monday's parade and celebrations? He sounds like a pretty good real estate agent, but he's paid you to say that. So that's the only reason he's popular. He couldn't sell real estate in Vancouver but he's paid you to say that. So that's the only reason he's popular. He couldn't sell real estate in Vancouver, I don't think.

He couldn't get arrested in Vancouver, but he was, he had a whole, by the way, he, Brian was at Nathan Phillips square on Monday for the parade. And I, he tweeted after the event that it was like the worst day of his life. So I phoned him up and I said, Hey, can we have a recorded chat about this? And he's like, he wanted to talk about it.

So I created, the last episode is actually a phone call I had with Brian in which he explained why it was such a horrible experience to be at Nathan Phillips Square for the... Yeah, was he a bit trapped? All the above. I guess he's dehydrated. He can't even lift his arms because they're crammed like sardines and there's rushes of people and I guess

the delay of course doesn't help and a whole bunch of stuff that he feels is poorly planned and whatnot. But you can hear him if you go back to that episode. But he's a big Raptors guy. He's Raptors devotee on Twitter. But I'm wondering and like he's wondering, either of you guys care about the Raptors winning

the NBA championship? Yeah, sure. I haven't been a huge Raptors guy. I'm a bit of a bandwagon jumper, but it was exciting for the city. I think they had to plan that parade and the events

of Monday in a big hurry and maybe a few things they could have done differently if they'd had a little more time to think. But they didn't see it coming? They didn't know it was a possibility? That was the whole goal, right? That's a reasonable question.

Definitely a reasonable question. The Leafs every year for 50 years have had it locked and loaded and it never happens. Yeah. They're going to bring out the plans and they're going to be dusty and old and there's going to be like,

buildings have been built that weren't there when these plans were made. We're going to need to update this. But, I mean, I guess it's a wonderful thing to see so many people like in the streets and celebrating and having your it just it's a great image it looks great but of course if you're stuck in the

middle but it is voluntary right like you don't have to voluntary he got there like six o'clock in the morning yeah and they the rally started at something like it was four that would have been yeah it was they were delayed see i went to Strawn and Lakeshore and it all went by me there at approximately 11-ish? Yeah, sure.

That's the way to go and then you get to go home. I saw a bit of it down at Lakeshore as well. It was down there. It's the way to go. But Ron, you look like you're

a big Kyle Lowry fan. I don't know. Yeah, yeah. You care? Well, you know, they were the greatest.

Well, your kids, your kids into it. They were probably the greatest and only seven, yeah. You care? Well, you know, they were the greatest. What about your kids? Your kids into it? They were probably the greatest and only seven basketball games I ever watched. Oh, you did watch? Yeah.

So you did watch? I did watch, yeah. There's only six, though, but the finals. Yeah. Fantastic. Fantastic. All right, so let's do this.

Let's start with, and I don't know, man. I'm going to just play the song and then you can tell us the name of the song. I was going to say, I will say the name and then play,

but who am I? I'm not a DJ, so let me play the song, and then you can tell us the name of the song. I was going to say, I will say the name and then play, but who am I? I'm not a DJ. So let me play the song, and then when I fade it down, you guys can tell us the name of the song. And anything you can share about the song, us low fans would love it. So let's begin with the first track. We'll see you next time. Thank you. Oh, wake yourself, shake those skeletons out Chase those ghosts from the house Make some space for the place where the future can shine Open your eyes, wake up Bonnie and Clyde

Cause it's a good day to die So are you true? Those are the world's eyes of a new guy Yeah, anything without it is a mystery And every single morning is a victory When everything is going in the ashes of yesterday I'm gonna build a future on the grave of the past I don't know when it's coming, but it's gonna be fast So never let the shadow of your shadow get in the way I don't even want to fade it down. This is a fantastic choice for the first single.

I mean, the first song on the album. But Bonnie and Clyde. Tell me about Bonnie and Clyde. I want to say, first of all, it sounds great in headphones. I don't think I've heard it in headphones. I've been telling him to listen. I know. I don't have headphones. I don't have good headphones at home. These are like 30 bucks.

They're not even good headphones. Yeah, so this is called Bonnie and Clyde. This would have been one of the ones that was kind of thematically lassoed into the pile because I came up with this conceit of Bonnie and Clyde in the chorus, and then I just started to write about

the idea of being outside the law and kind of, you know, living free and outside the law. And it sort of works on the level of the sort of Robin Hood aspect of it, though I know that is not historically correct with Fawn and Clyde. Like, who decided this would be the first song? Ron? Yeah, I think so. I think we were both sort of...

I think it was either this or Bottle Rockets. Yeah, I was struck by the first stanza. You know, I sort of thought the first stanza kind of summed up the entire record. And it's got the kind of upward sweeping synth that sounds a bit like an air raid siren. So I thought it might be a tension grabber. Yeah, it's a good opener.

Fantastic opener. And it was great live too. Great live and concert. All right, let's go second jam on Agitpop In the battle of the bar I was the drunken people's commissar Oh, the best laid plans

Held together with rubber bands The sacrificial barricade Will be dismantled every single day With a pair of pliers From a toolbox of saints and liars When it was easy To be bold To be brave enough to be bold

I only bleed a while Let it bleed a while Once marching the only blues Bottle Rockets. Yeah. So that one kind of came out of, we had a rehearsal space back in maybe 2004, 2005, somewhere around there that we rehearsed in a lot and uh there was this kind of tape kicking around that had some jams on it this was one of the jams

and uh it was back when dylan parker was playing bass and steve stanley was in the band and uh there was a great chorus and all that kind of stuff but it wasn't really put together so i read we kind of rediscovered it and it was like, oh, I figured I would put it together. And I created a version of it, but it had no lyrics. And we were starting to work with David Bottrell. And he was like, oh, this is a great tune. We've got to get this in shape. And it sort of occurred to me like, hey, maybe since all the Lowe members were part of building it,

maybe I should write the story of the Lowe. It's sort of a minor little arc write the story of the low. It's sort of a minor little arc of the career of the band. Except you left out the part where nobody in Winnipeg got us. Yeah, true. There's going to have to be a sequel. You have to write another verse.

I think this is a good example of that first line in the Battle of the Bar, I was the drunken people's commissar. I think that speaks a lot against what Sammy's saying about the band, is that I think that was one of the reasons that the band resonated so much and resonates so much with people, is that for us it's a community, and people get to kind of join that community. And I was thinking about it the other day, we just did a bunch of shows

where we're playing with all these great young bands, get to kind of join that community. And I was thinking about it the other day. We just did a bunch of shows where, you know, we're playing with all these great young bands, and I hope to hell that they have a long career, like Sky Wallace and her band and Jane's Party, people like that. But I'm thinking, you know, 30 years from now, will there be a sold-out room singing Sky's songs or Jane Party's songs? I hope so, but it's a real feat. You know, every now and then I get blessed by the

idea that that's a real hard thing to pull off since you mentioned Stephen Stanley he joined you on stage was that

the Watchmen show yeah right so how did that come to be was he he's just there and then you invited him on like how

did he end up just there standing on the stage so I said well if you're gonna stand on the stage you might as well do something I think a lot of a lot of longtime

low fans are curious that you guys shared a mic it's been a while right uh several years i think yes uh 2013 i would imagine in fact you know i think the the death knell of that part of our band uh happened right around the corner at the rehearsal factory oh that is right around the corner it's literally a few blocks from here. Yeah, no, it just, it happened in a very similar way to how a lot of things happen with the low, which is just by feel, not really any planning, you know. It's just, we had been talking a little bit again, and then we were actually talking about the only cafe

and about how I'd just done a run of shows there, and Steve and I started this thing at Graffiti's that we used to do at Christmas time, which led into me doing Graffiti's all the time, which led into the Graffiti Nation thing where I do the only cafe. So I said to Steve, you know, a lot of people had asked me, hey, would you and Steve ever do that again?

And when I mentioned to him, he said, I'm coming over to your house this week. So he came over and we just chatted about a lot of things and, you know, things in the past and things currently. And I said, well, you know, I'll run it by by the band and then we just had a show we had shows coming up at least palace and they said well awesome idea and we love the idea of you guys doing something but maybe not right now while we have these other shows that we're promoting so steve and i uh decided to do it in the future but then that gig came up and i thought well this is a

a great way for us to do it but not not do it with a capital D, you know? I have a question. How do you decide like that? That's a Ron Hawkins, Ron Hawkins open for the Watchmen, not lowest to the low. Like, how does that work?

Like, is it, they ask, like, how do you decide when you're Ron Hawkins and when you're. Sammy calls you and says, Hey Ron, do you want to open for us?

And I go, yeah, Sammy, sure. Yeah. You know, I mean, well, Sammy didn't want low so low he's

still mad about yeah okay i'm not trying i just know he asked and i said sammy you can't guys can't handle those to the low so i better just come by myself no kidding kidding sammy i'm just kidding oh now's a good time to say hello to andrew stokely because uh i know stokely's loving the new album too so he's loving agit pop andpop and Stokely's a good buddy of mine. He felt it was not over compressed, which is high praise from him. He's the compression police, I sense that. I saw on Twitter, he said the same thing to Sky Wallace.

He was like, your album is not over compressed, which I guess is an unqualified rave. That's not one of those, you guys looked like you were having fun up there. I don't know, maybe, yeah, maybe it is. When you don't really have anything else to say. Yeah, oh wow. It's not one of those That's not one of those You guys looked like You were having fun up there I don't know maybe Yeah maybe it is When you don't really Have anything else to say

Yeah Oh well That's some pleasing Lack of compression So hello Stokely We know you're listening So hello hello Okay third song

From Agitpop One man's given is one man's taken away One man's prison is one man's private estate One man's on the board One man's overboard One more wolf at the gate And then we dance around As they steal this town And the walls

come down one brick after another our two religions is two religions the ballad of late era capitalism I wonder what that's about tell it like it is yeah i think it just sort of

like i i got the idea you know this happens a lot where i get the idea and i go is that a cartoon character or is that a song you know it's like it's very there's a very cartoonish aspect to this tune i think but then i as i started writing and I thought well you know I had you know often I'll have some anchoring lines that I think are good lines one of them in this was uh Saint Paul Cries Out here it is right now Saint Paul Cries Out so that line there's no more kingdom my brother than each shall inherit each other, almost broke my heart when I thought of it. And I thought it's such a sad idea that if this continues to go like this,

all we'll inherit will be a giant life raft full of refugees if we don't fight it. So I just thought, well, what are the three poles of, you know, capitalism that seem to get in the way? And I think it's, you know, greed and avarice. Not just organized religions, but any kind of superstition that holds us back from moving forward scientifically or sociologically. And then state terror, you know. So the waterboarding part and stuff like that, it's like, you know, what we allow ourselves to do in the name of nationalism or...

Fun, kids. Yeah. And you can dance to it. Where did you record this album? Union Sound. Mostly Union Sound recording, and we did some work at Revolution Recording as well. Yeah.

And David Bottrell mixed it in his studio. So it was all done in Toronto. I giggle because when we were listing them, I thought, what a perfect record to make at Union Sound at Revolution Recording. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So where was the listening party? Was that Revolution?

That was Revolution Recording. Okay, so firstly, thank you for the invitation. That's an exclusive invitation. You can't buy that on kajiji right that's uh no i don't think so i tried to sell it i didn't know no you can't sell it on kajiji you can't sell it there's pizza and booze it was great and and we got to hear the songs and the studio was amazing uh tell me what tim thompson he's a friend of the show at boundoundless, what's he been doing for the songs on this album? Well, Tim undertook the enormous task of making a short film for every single song on the record.

That's 14 little films he made. Little, I guess, documentaries about the songs themselves. He was in the studio filming when we were recording. He went out and filmed us in the wild, I guess, as it were. He came to rehearsal and filmed performances and then turned them all into little stories. He's got that absolute gift. He's almost perfect person except his mic technique.

He talks quietly. He forces you to pay attention. He's worth listening harder to. He's worth the lean in. Yeah. I think it's a power move. He forces you to listen closely, which is a power move, right?

I think he knows what he's doing. Should be. He played hockey with my cousin. That's my connection to Tim. He's very unassuming about that power move. It's the most unassuming power play you can get. But they're beautiful. Beautiful little pieces.

I'm referring to them as agit docs and uh he you know we it's this is a very low to low uh process as well which is that we originally i had thought hey you know we should maybe make a making of you know straight up sort of doc in the studio kind of thing and a couple guys in the band were really reticent and sort of pushed back against it which i didn't even didn't even occur to me that anybody would have a problem with that idea. And so I fought for a little bit about like, Hey, what if,

you know, what if your favorite, what if a Fugazi, you know, a lost documentary in the studio or whatever appeared, you'd be thrilled, right. To find.

Yeah. And I said, so, you know, I'm thinking of our fans and stuff like that. And, but you know, I got the idea that,

you know, it's hard work. It's person, very personal, um, work in the studio and maybe cameras in the face kind of thing you know that doesn't bug me but it bugs some people so so the cool thing that you know the the low does is we're kind of resilient on our feet i think and it was like okay if not that uh you know the guys who were not so comfortable with it were like maybe a day or two days you know and so tim could come

in and do that and then we came up with the idea of like well hey maybe we use that as the basis of making these little docks and the whole conceit of rebel radio was that they were supposed to be transmitted from his pirate radio station you know on a boat in ontario or something yeah pirate radio i had you know keith hampshire uh first cut is the deepest you know this guy he's anyway he worked on a pirate radio state at a pirate radio station Caroline Radio Caroline in the UK

back whenever they were popular these pirate radio stations Dave and I worked in a pirate radio station as well in the 80s with our band Social Insecurity

out of a warehouse in Toronto cool it seems like it seems like that's science fiction but no

cool alright there's a song about it on the record too yes it's topical is it next Cool. It seems like that's science fiction. Oh, cool. All right. There's a song about it on the record, too. Yes. It's topical. Is it next? No. Let's play the fourth track.

Okay. Sometimes makes me wonder why I can't read a sentence from the chapter Of a book that tells the tale of her dependence It's full of pain and wonder It's full of rain and thunder But I, I wonder who's the most surprised Who swallows propaganda when she lies Who struggles just to still flow when she cries

I'll wait I love you like I love you like a freight train Like a roller coaster A Mayakovsky poster She's hammers and sickles and roses The only question I propose is Who got cars in this bulldog town? Who bright falls when her smile becomes a frown?

Who's gonna dig a trench for her when she's down? She's down Mike's bobbing his head. This is a catchy little ditty. When she falls. How I fable And I trust it Like a fool

True agitpop. Now this one, that's funny, this one completely predates The List of Below. I think it was written in about 87 or 88 when I was in a band with Steve Stanley and Dave Alexander called Popular Front.

And it's a testament to what happens. You know, all the old saws about getting older and sort of wiser and slowing down a little bit and taking in the whole picture. Because we used to play a very fast version of this, which was much more kind of a rock version than a soul version. And it had no groove, and it was really kind of just a roller coaster and did not work like this, you know?

So I'm so glad that it kind of went into a little locker and it sat in there until it was ready for us to be able to play it. Is this the only song on the album that goes back that far? No, there's another one. Oh, so spoiler alert. Okay, coming up. Yeah, I almost want to hear this like a rocksteady piece or whatever. Yeah.

Well, you know, in bringing the horns in and bringing the percussion and there are a lot of people who don't know uh us before lowest low we're like oh it's amazing you guys are growing evolving into this thing and i was like well you know popular front had a full-time percussionist and a horn section you know so we're kind of coming full circle to a style that we i think you know we're using when we weren't prepared to use it as well as we do now do you want to shout out who's who's playing on that song there that's uh amadeo ventura on the percussion and on the horns it was uh ruhi devji stephen dight and christian overton playing the horns excellent legitimizers legitimizers legitimizers so we're going. Legitimizers. So we're going to do

the first seven and then we're going to have a little intermission. Should you be so inspired you could play something live? I know you have your guitars out so no pressure.

We could play the seventh song live. So the seventh song? Is that the one you want to play? Is that the one? Yeah. Sure.

Okay. I think so. Okay, I like this plan. So we'll play the fifth one right now. Mm-hmm. We'll be right back. New Wave Action Plan Never gonna join the party. New wave action plan. Let's burn the whole house down. I pushed a boy through the deer to party. Where did this one come from?

You know what? I think once I started getting the idea that maybe somatically, I could see this picture in my head of Lois Lowe on the back of a flatbed truck with a banner and a megaphone and, you know, that it would be like, you know, maybe we're going to write socialism for dummies, you know, like as a record. And so, and then I thought these kinds of like Ballad of Lady or Capitalism, New Wave Action Plan, you know, they're kind of comical in their sort of pedanticness, but I thought they were perfect kind of funny, you know, like not taking ourselves too seriously at the same time that we're taking ourselves very seriously.

Right. And I think the key line in that one was, you're dead until you die. Like if we don't take charge of our own lives and we don't reach down and find the energy to do what we want to do and what we need to do, then our lives are a joke, you know, we're just walking dead, you know?

then our lives are a joke, and we're just walking dead, you know? It's like very serious messaging wrapped up in a very jangly, kind of poppy covers. I see what you're doing there. It's like a Trojan horse. I've always been a big girl group, like original girl group, Ronettes and Shirelles and stuff like that. I've always been a big fan of that,

and it sort of passed through some influences like Brian Wilson and right up to people like The Clash. I was going to ask about Elvis Costello, for example. I hear some of that influence. I think that's when we talk about When She Falls as well. It's like trying to bring the punk thing,

the new wave thing, and the soul thing all together. It's also a little jam. I think think the clash might have done that as well yeah you are canada's the clash i'm not using that i might promote tmlx3 featuring canada's the class at least two members of canada's the clash but i feel like there are people who've done it the other way too like amy winehouse to me i think you know probably flips the scenario that i have which is that she's strongly from the girl group jazz place and the soul place and then i i listen to the dap tones and things like rehab and stuff like that and think well and maybe she also likes bands like the clash and the undertones and people like that and it's like she's bringing in the specials she's bringing that that's the

littler element that she brings to the bigger element, you know? Yeah. And we're sort of flipped the other way. All right, gents, I need to ask you about Dave Bookman. Okay. So we lost Bookie, shoot, I don't know, last month, I suppose, in May. And I know Bookie was a big, you know, advocate, supporter of the lowest level. Could you share any thoughts or memories of Dave Bookman? It's just such a big loss. It's such a huge loss for the community

because there isn't anybody who's been, you know, playing music in this town who probably hasn't benefited from Dave. Dave just being just a solid advocate of music, of the musical community in the city. And he was, yeah, he being a, just a solid advocate of music, of, of, of the musical community in the city. And he was, yeah, he was always a huge support. We went in and visited him at the edge all the time back in the day. And he would, you know, interview us and, and he, I don't know, he just, he was just an absolutely, you know, genuine champion of, of the music community

and what he saw around him. And, uh, he's, he's not going to be replaced. I don't think, you know. Yeah. There are, I would say there, you know, there's probably, we could probably list on our, on our two hands, you know, the people who are the pillars of the Toronto music scene, at least, you know, in that can, and, and, you know, people from Vancouver and Halifax probably aren't going to like this, but I'm saying, you know, whoever is the pillar of the Toronto music community in Canada pretty much

supports an awful lot of the rest of the music community in Canada. So, you know, he clearly is one of the biggest pillars and in it for the right reasons. And exactly what we've been talking about, the thread going through this is like a person who's doing this, not for money, not for fame, but it's because he didn't really have a choice to do anything else.

You know, he was so hardwired for this. Yeah, a lot of passion for the music. And he did that Horseshoe, that new music night at the Horseshoe. I think that went on for, literally went on for decades. I want to say like 30 years or something. So I don't think...

And it's, you know, doubly surreal when, you know, we're used, I think we're sort of used to the idea of degeneration and sort of like watching people degenerate before they go. And we're not used to somebody being an incredible spark plug and them going, you know, in a flash. It's like, it just feels like nobody has a chance to even catch their breath because it's, you know, it's so unexpected. And, you know, if anything, you were exhausted after having an interview with Dave.

You walk out sort of like, oh, man, now I think I'm going to have to have a nap. He was exhaustingly exhilarating. Oh, man. Yeah, you don't replace a guy like Bookie. But when you would get there for the interview, just the first thing he wanted to tell you about was just other music he'd been listening to,

people that he'd gone to see in concert. And that was just, that was, that was his life and that's what he lived for. And that's what he brought to, you know, to, to his work and,

you know, spread the message. So, um, you know, I, I, I,

I, I, you know, I think, uh, I think we were all richer for, for having known him for sure. All right.

Here's the sixth track from Agitpop. guitar solo Man standing in the rain Trying to catch a train Daydreaming our systems go But there's a buzzing in my mind Hijacking the line Just like a pirate radio It's an image of the noise

Desolation voice covers then it disappears Like a vision that conspires and crackles down the wires Takes me back a million years To reasons of dark times To days of F nosy F nosy

rebel radio though in parentheses F-Nosey? F-Nosey? Rebel Radio, though, in parentheses. I think you have a typo in your computer. It's just, I know. So what's the name of the song? It's called F-Noise. F-Noise. Actually, you know where the typo is?

In the metadata for the file that Lauren sent me. I know, I was reading it and I'm like, F-nosy. It's okay, it's for sure. Or the file name is misnamed. Check it out for me and tell me. Because I do need glasses, but I'm pretty sure. Someone will lose their job.

I'm about to die over here. Lawrence is checking out the file name because it, well anyway, I'm pointing to die over here Lawrence is checking out the file name because it well anyway I'm pointing to it here but I like F nosy sure yeah you got rosy and gray and you got F nosy it kind of

I don't know how that happened it's correct here so the file name though like the actual name of the file name yeah it's probably not the file name oh okay yeah well yeah it's probably not the metadata it's the file yeah that's probably

yeah okay as long as the metadata is good because I actually did make a mistake on the metadata and on all the pre-release stuff the ballad of Lady or a capitalism was called

the battle of Lady or a capitalism because I just I just wrote the wrong word I wrote the wrong word of Los Angeles yeah so I had to get them to fix it all before it went live all right but the song I'm calling called The Battle of Lady Rock Capitalism because I just wrote the wrong word. I wrote the wrong word. The Battle of Los Angeles? Yeah. So I had to get them to fix it all before it went live. All right.

But the song I'm calling F-Nosey. F-Noise. Tell me about F-Noise. Rebel Radio. Yeah. So F-Noise was a magazine, a fanzine, punkzine back in 83. Dave and I, Dave Alexander and I, were in a band called Social Insecurity.

And we were part of this F-Noise fanzine and a really tight little punk community and this was the days when we were taking part in this collective pirate radio station so I'm name dropping a few bands from the day and their condition response and Tulpa and Believer's Voice of Victory. And it was just an amazing... I remember, through the mists of time,

it's hard to tell how much I'm romanticizing it, but it feels very... The blood was pumping and we felt like we were doing something real. And it was my first... The first band I really felt was a foray into like, wow. How old were you approximately? I was about 18 or 17 or something like that. 19, I don't know how old I was, but it was, yeah, and I had just met Dave

and we were, it was a three piece. So, you know, we were very busy and very active and, you know, we sort of idolized a lot of these bands. I remember Conditioned Response, we really idolized those guys and the big fish in the pool was uh le tranget and uh dave you know tell some funny jokes about back then it was like you know his heat as big as he could dream was like someday we will open for le tranget and sell out you know lee's palace it was like right when it turned out we did that fairly quickly and he he was like, oh, I guess I have a better dream than that. So it's kind of another one, again, another story,

sort of self-mythologizing story about those days with social insecurity. And, you know, we had things like we had a jam space up at Jane and Finch and it was social insecurity and then a hundred reggae and ska bands and rocksteady bands. So it was like nothing but Rastas and three pasty white guys. I was going to ask where the the warehouse was where the pirate radio oh this is funny because i was telling this story at the uh listening party um and uh to the warner listening party and steve kane who's the president of warner this circles back to why we signed with warner and i'll tell you that in a second but i was telling steve kane this story about it and he

said uh the warehouse at king and parliament and i'm like yeah shitty warehouse you know work live space and it wasn't really a live space it was basically just a workspace he was kind of living in there kind of squatting in there wow and i'm like 83 and he's like yeah pretty much 83 i'm like i love the idea that we may have walked by and you know brushed elbows oh sorry man like in 1983 and now he's the president of warner and we're a band on his label yeah that's unbelievable but uh so yeah so it comes back around to why warner now as uh you know strombo uh asked me the same question and i said uh i said because it felt right and we've always done everything because it made sense we we trust

them and you know we met steve kane and that was a big part of it and strombo said you know yeah he's the last punk rock president on a major label so that's the big deal like you know yeah the song we're about to play actually um we we had a little you know a little uh discussion inside the band whether everybody felt comfortable with the with the themes being um uh proselytized in the song and uh you know we were working our way toward it, which we do, like, the low is a beautiful democracy, so sometimes very frustrating, but overall a very good, solid-working democracy. So we worked our way towards it.

But then Steve Cain also piped in as the president of the company and said, no, that's got to be on the record. And it's a song that, you know, when we play it, you'll think, well, you wouldn't think a president of a record company would be so behind all of these ideas. He's the last punk rock president, so it makes sense. Okay, so I'll shut up now because you guys are going to do your thing

and then I'm going to take a little video because that's what I like to do. Okay. I'm going to play like a mariachi. Yeah, I'm going to have to back away here. Do what you got to do and put the mics wherever you got to Put the mics wherever you gotta put the mics You were saying that you weren't a disc jockey But I was saying that maybe Is there such thing as a PJ?

Because you're a PJ man PJ Fresh Phil PJs run YTV Yeah but you're like a pod jockey Pod jockey right I'm a PJ Black cars? Sorry.

When all the roads you see from your door Lead one way and the other way And all the waves that crash on your shore Carry sailors' bones from shipwreck days When all those vicious handcuffed words constrict contract strain well I'll meet you on the barricade in the cool defiant rain I wouldn't even when your brothers held on to their mothers The story an unwritten page

Well, they read you the rules and they sent you to school But you paid for the bars on your cage So you played a poison violin in a symphony of rage Now it's time you traded that fucker in For a place on the barricade Little I'll struggle shy Struggle Shout The seconds the jury And the minutes the judge And the hour of the barricade

And your green eyes And your battle cries Are the sweetest warning Served But the only ring Can dismantle this thing green eyes and your battle cries are the sweetest warning you've served. But the only ring can dismantle this thing is the sound of a siren heard by the children of apostasy who will rescue this wretched world. Ah, they'll join their hands like a barricade Like an insulin fist full of pearls

Stay or go Now or no The week is the hangman The month is the hangman The month is the rope And the year is the barricade Some vote with their heads And some vote with their hearts And some vote with the end of their dicks

You can vote with a ballot You can vote with the end of their dicks. Or you can vote with a ballot, you can vote with your wallet, but it's always a vote for the pricks. So let me tell you this for free, or my next vote's with a brick. All from somewhere behind the barricade, beyond the lies and the rhetoric If I see you on the barricade

I'll be sure to shake your hand Oh, and I'll help you build your barricade On the grave of this sleepwalking land. Yes, that was fantastic. Thanks so much. Thank you. Thank you. And that's the barricade.

And now, after you get a sip of water there, you have to tell us what the barricade is about. It's about girls, man. You know, it's fairly self-explanatory, I think, which is that I mistrust the system as it stands. I've always mistrusted, and I've done this dance about respecting democratic institutions and cherishing them and also mistrusting and stepping out of them as well, because, you know, like we like we're seeing and like we saw in the in the election between

Hillary and Donald, you know, there's a lot of mistrust for the system itself and how rigged it is on both sides, you know, and I think that everybody talks about dismantling it and making it more equitable for everybody and making it a more democratic situation. But few really, I think, have the intentions, or even when they have the intentions, they don't have the capabilities of dismantling the machine as it is to make that happen.

So what I've always felt like voting was a little bit of a swindle and a little bit of something for the monkeys to do while the people are actually running the show at the top and uh so i i don't sit well with being made a fool of and i you know so as i say you know i that makes me sound like i'm 100 anti-voting and i'm and i'm not i'm sort of strategically i think there are times when there's absolutely no way to avoid it but i don't think it's a a way to convince yourself that you're changing the big picture. I guess I wonder what's the alternative? Exactly, Mike.

I don't give alternatives. I just complain about what exists. Just asking the questions. No, I just, you know, I mean, I'd have to come on the podcast three or four days in a row to explain probably do myself justice that's okay we won't make time for that but you know in the short short scenario i come from the left uh like the communist and socialist left and i feel like you know some form of representative democracy that is recallable you know that is not recallable over four years but is recallable in 48 hours or whatever you know you elect somebody to to represent you and if they instantly go into the field and do the polar opposite of what you've

elected them to do they're they're um you can pull them back you know i mean that would that would be a start getting money out of politics would start uh getting getting all of the institutions in this country out of the hands of of and, you know, big money, you know, nationalizing certain things, you know, I, this is not really a mandate that I think is a long-term solution, but I think even if we could come to a solution where we said, you know, some of the major resources or the major wealth of the country should be nationalized and held in common so that everybody's taken care of. And then beyond that, if you want to become a billionaire, you know, go to it, try to pull up your socks and try and see what you can do, that everybody's taken care of. And then beyond that, if you want to become a billionaire, you know, go to it, try to pull up your socks and try and see what you can do.

But everybody's taken care of first. I don't think that probably will work or works because if you had the gumption and the energy to, to be that equitable, why would you not continue to just be go all the way in, make sure that everybody's taken care of it. Right. Food for thought and buried in a beautiful jam. Okay.

It's a three minute song so I can't say all that. So that's, again, that's the track number seven we got live. So let's go to number eight. Yeah.

Oh yeah. I tell you where do I fit in If I'm too cynical to pray But don't have the stomach to sin What can you do? Where can you go? When the top's too high And the bottom's too low We spend our lives chasing niggas and dimes

Finding hell's where the mountains decline And find it here Still the mountains decline And I really don't know why But I've seen enough All the night of a thousand guns The palace burns The kingdom comes All the night of a thousand guns Is this the first cut on the second side of the...

Yeah. Is that number eight? Yeah. So when you asked me, you know, what's the answer to the Bearcats song, I should have said, just play number eight. And by the way, again, live, this song killed live. Like, it sounded like I'd heard it a hundred times.

It was instantly like a sing-along, I felt. It's one of those instantly likable songs. But tell me about Night of a Thousand Guns. This is the other one that came from, you know, 88, somewhere like that. And exactly the same story as When She Falls. We used to play it way faster, way more like a rock song. It used to be called The Pressure Point.

I've certainly been prolific enough that I don't need to go pillaging into the past, but there were a few songs like this that I remembered as being missed opportunities, and it kind of terrified me that maybe they would just be lost to time and, you know, the 45 people who came to see Popular Front would be the only ones who ever heard them.

So I thought, hey, you know, these can be recuperated and pulled back. And, yeah, and then the 90,000 Guns, I think it's a phrase that came out when I was just jamming it. And then I felt kind of uncomfortable with it. You know, it's like I don don't want to be, uh, it's, you know, it's a suit of clothes that doesn't, it's an itchy suit of clothes to start talking about armed revolution, you know, because there's so, so many, many, many, many ways it can go wrong. And there's only one way it can go right.

So that's not great odds, you know, but, uh, so I know. So I felt weird about it until I didn't feel weird about it, and then we just moved forward. And then, you know, we got to bring the gang in, the horns. I could hear that from when I was jamming it. Horns and Amadeo, you know, his rebel rhythms were pretty awesome. So, like, just to be clear, you're not suggesting we all take up arms? Yes, I am. Precisely.

I need to understand my direction here. No, I guess that's where I fall, is that as a peaceful person, as a dad, as a friend, as a part of my community, I feel very nauseous about that kind of idea. But I also look at history and I think, you know, there are very few things, even the things that we take for granted, very few of them were attained by touching your forelocks

and bowing nicely and getting the keys to the kingdom, right? They're mostly gotten by either by violence or by the implied possibility of violence. So my heart battles with my brain because my brain tells me that that's so far seems to be the only way that we can at the evolutionary stage we're at, that we can get things changed. But my heart doesn't feel good about that. Like I know in the news lately, I've been following that following that you know millions are taken to the streets of hong kong for example like in peaceful protests and uh but how many would be 25 years no when's tiananmen squared 89 is that right so 30 years yeah but uh you're not suggesting they stop the peaceful protests.

No, I mean, obviously peaceful protests are important. Civil disobedience is important. I think workers and students' solidarity and actions are important because that's the liminal place where you have an opportunity to change things without violence. If you have enough solidarity, you know, I mean, somebody brought it up to me recently about how, you know, Trump locks out the government and nobody knows what to do and nobody can, you know, and then suddenly the air traffic controllers stop working for 15 minutes. The country shuts down and there's there's a result. So that's what I'm talking about. the country shuts down and there's,

there's a result. So that's what I'm talking about. People who have power and real power, like power, shared power, not, not purchased power, but shared power. When we,

if we can get everybody organized together, you can do it without gunfire. But unfortunately, so many times it happens in the world where, uh, you know, it comes to that. And when it comes to that,

then you have a choice on your hands, whether you can stomach it or you can't. and plus, you know, night of a thousand. And when it comes to that, then you have a choice on your hands whether you can stomach it or you can't. And plus, you know, Night of a Thousand Hugs didn't sound as cool. Speaking of hugs, here's track number nine. Oh, pain is a snake I guess love is a ladder Justice is another matter

A tougher egg to break I guess love is a ladder. Justice is another matter. A tougher egg to break. Oh, but make no mistake. Through the static and the chatter, the former becomes the latter. Though you feel lonely, you know you're never alone. No, you're never alone. No, you're never alone. When your life is a nail, history is a hammer. Decide your honors, what matters.

So drive the port of it home. And when the struggle is on, victories and disgraces. You got friends in love places. We'll pick you up so you know. Love and justice there's a lot of like uh i want to say like ska influence uh threaded throughout this uh agit pop album here it's not it's quick aside and then we want to hear from you, but I was listening to a podcast about like UB40's Red Red Wine, okay? Because it was a hit here like five years after it was released

in the UK, but they were saying like, oh, it's a cover of a Neil Diamond song, but UB40 never heard, never even knew Neil Diamond ever did that song. It was a cover of the Rocksteady cover of the Neil Diamond song, you know what I mean? UB40 never heard Neil Diamond.

I don't think I've ever heard Neil Diamond sing Red Red Wine either. Have you? Well, he does it now. It's the number one hit. UB40. Well, sure. He does it now. But anyway, that's enough UB40.

Well, 100% I heard the UB40 version before I heard the Neil Diamond version. Yeah. So tell me about Love Injustice So that was Just messing about When there's some down time We often start skanking and jumping around And playing some ska stuff Or ska hits that we like

Or making stuff up It got to a point where Somebody would just yell ska trap Because the ska trap was like if we're not playing our own songs then instantly we start playing ska songs or reggae songs or whatever so you know then it occurred to me well why don't we have some then yeah right because we all come from a place where we enjoy that stuff and you know have early uh and the ska version of salesman cheats and lawyers just wasn't it just wasn't right now i think i wasn's doing it i think the specials were at the damforth musical last night i think and tonight too and tonight yeah two nights yeah so that

i can't imagine i should have gone to that it would have been fun yeah oh well yeah so and we need to discuss some scott tunes we've got yeah i'm sure that that will i can tell that you know that's gonna that's gonna i don't know about loom large but it's going to be a part of the toolkit moving forward for sure there's you know some more stuff like that i'm messing about with and and the love and justice thing like uh you know i like i like the turn it came to me pretty quickly the you know if uh if hate is a snake i guess love a ladder. And then how that whole stanza wraps around to like, you know, love and justice, you know, justice is a harder egg to break, you know, but through the static and the chatter, the former becomes the latter.

You know, if there's enough love, there will be justice sort of thing. And maybe that's not clear when we're stanking around, but, you know, it's those moments as a songwriter where that little path came up and that stanza happened and I was like, you know, it's just really satisfying to sort of, I don't know, like send your lure out there and then have it, have a nibble and then get that sort of sword to get into the boat. You know, there it is.

A fishing analogy. Big, big game fishing though. The cool guy. Wait, big game fishing. Isn't that fish on your arm? It's hilarious because we're now working with Simon who does our sound. And Greg Smith is playing bass with us. And those guys all come from, or Greg Smith coming from the Weaker Thans. He was the bass player in the Weaker Thans.

Jason Tate was the drummer of the Weaker Th and simon uh had a band red red fisher and this is a fish off the cassette cassette tape i got from them in 1991 wow from red fisher so and i and i didn't know those guys you know we played one gig with them or something or maybe we just saw them at the spectrum and then decades later i met jason and i was like he said what is that i said that's off your cassette tape i hope i got my stories right here because i did a bunch of reading lately but like is it you ron who was at a john k samson show or am i i might be i might be messing up my stories but you're at a john k samson show and he he tell me now if i've got the wrong well i've been at some so i didn't't need to know. But in New York, was there a New York show where he might have, maybe,

yeah, it's terrible when I have a story. Put down his pants. He might have referenced, he might have referenced you, he referenced a band that he was a big fan of and a member of the band

was at the show, like coincidentally, and tried to talk his way through security to go back and tell me, I'm, I'm, anyway, there's a whole story here and it's probably not you now that I started, this is very embarrassing for me, of course, coincidentally and tried to talk his way through security to go back and tell me hey i'm i'm anyway there's a whole story here and it's probably not you now that i started this very embarrassing for me of course that i've because that's not you might have been the watchman was

it the watchman no it wasn't no i don't think it's a watchman either but but he's a big supporter of lowest at the low right like that's yeah i i had the the pleasure of finding the weaker dance this is kind of a cool thing is that G7, who was, is a record label out of Winnipeg and is mostly like hardcore stuff and everything. But the week of dance, because John used to be in propaganda and,

and the label is run by Chris Hannah, who was in propaganda. So the week of dance came out on G7 originally. And it was a, you know, I noticed that there were no G7 records in, in the stores in Toronto. So I said to Chris Hannah, Hey hey you should i'll i'll distribute you guys on my bicycle if you send me the records right because they're not in the stores so he's every month would or you

know whenever the new releases where he would send me them and i would get them in the record stores and i would often go through oh german hardcore band don't like it don't like this ugly unmusical you know propaganda records i liked and then i heard the weaker dance and i was like holy crap like it just jumped out of the speakers as way more up my alley and something i really liked and then i went to get to see them at the horseshoe and i met them and and it was really nice because then i started to become friends with john and then john let me know that not only was he a fan of the bands, but he considered it a formative part of him becoming a songwriter, Shakespeare, but he was really,

and he showed me an early cassette tape of his that he had made. And it's worth pointing out John is from Winnipeg. And John's from Winnipeg, yes. It's all coming back to Winnipeg. All right, so I got the wrong story, but I'm glad it prompted that story because that was fantastic. So I'll just tell people that was on purpose. I knew what I was doing the whole time.

So, all right. 10th cut from Agitpop. I remember the days when you'd drive by drunk and disorderly But now you're gone away and nobody knocks on the window screen You were singing a tune you were born to recite Always sung in the same sad key I'll come back in a dream Come back in a dream Come back in a dream Emojean

Somebody explain why somebody's pain is so hard to read Somebody explain why I guess I'm tired Somebody explain why I guess I'm tired A friend of mine, Kathleen and I were in New York City in the 90s, maybe 92 or something. And there was a, we just went to the MoMA and to go see the MoMA. And there was a little tiny room that was an exhibit that we walked into not knowing what was in it. And it was thousands of post-it notes. And it was, there were post-it notes at the door and pencils. And you were meant to go in and write a note to someone you had lost.

It was about HIV and the AIDS crisis. And so there were all these heartbreaking notes on the wall from people, personal notes to their lost loved ones. And so that was, you know, wrenching and staggering. And especially given that we didn't even know it was going to happen. Right. And I remember one one stuck into my mind. It was like you used to come knocking on my back door and now nobody comes knocking anymore. And that sat with me to this day. And I started writing this song

and it was about losing friends of ours in the rock and roll world or just people that you know or people that are struggling with mental health. And then I sort of borrowed that line and twisted it a little bit for the first verse. So it's really just about that. It's sort of borrowed that line and twisted it a little bit for the first verse. So it's really just about that. It's sort of a cry out and we miss you kind of.

It's amazing how something like that can resonate with you that you carry it for decades before you kind of apply it. Yeah, and I don't know if that's just a people thing and that that's what everybody is like or if it's also partially amped up by being a songwriter and it's a songwriter thing, maybe subconsciously the greedy little songwriter in me is going, that's usable, that's usable.

File that away. Other people's pain is usable. Put it in your head and it goes in the cabinet. But I think it's probably just a human thing that powerful moments in our life tend to stick in there. And I guess the songwriter part is that, what do you do with it? You know? I wish I could write music.

I wish I could write songs. Maybe I can. Maybe this is something I'll discover at midnight. Don't worry, Mike. We all say that as well at some point. I wish I could write music when you're in your pajamas and nothing's coming. Yeah.

On that note, do you workshop these new songs? Do you workshop them live? Is that how this thing you might have a... Not for years. You know, like Low 1.0, it used to be a pain in the ass the other way which is that we would have tons of backlog of songs on the record label or whoever was promoting

you would say no no we've got to stretch out you know you've got to do one more tour on Shakespeare in my butt and we'd be like oh my god you know like our grassroots fans that have been here since day one are dying for new music and we have it and we're dying to play it so we had by the time we got in the studio then we had played those songs for a long time but uh since then i think it's more been like

you know i'll write songs and sometimes i demo them at home and bring them to the band and then we arrange them as a band in the jam space and and uh it's it's always beautiful like i love you know making a record and then there's songs that nobody's heard you know i've played played them acoustically here at the only maybe maybe one or two of them or whatever, but basically nobody's heard them. And then we suddenly launch a whole 14 songs on people. And especially when I think they're as strong as the ones on this record, it's like, I feel like, you know,

I mean, I don't have a problem boasting, but I don't think I'm boasting when I say, you know, I think we've given them 14 solid songs, you know, no filler in there. So when you, when you do finally unleash these songs live in concert, like, can you, can you tell, like when you're on stage, front man, you know, singer songwriter, can you feel like which songs are working with the crowd that the crowds dig in and which ones are maybe, if any, fall a little flat? And why not? Can you tell which ones should become staples of the live shows? Like, is there a certain energy that you receive back?

Fall flat, Mike? I know. I never, if it's possible. What does that mean? Is it now that we throw our guitars down the walkout? Sammy suggested that, yeah. I don't know. What do you think, Mark?

Yeah, you can feel it. Yeah, you can feel it. I think, but I mean, we're kind of spoiled. Everybody was so up for it. We've just been playing a bunch of songs, and we're playing, as you saw, like at the Danforth, a big chunk of the set is the new material, and we try to, you know, we fit it in with all the old stuff as well.

New classics with the old classics. Sure. Yeah, you got a good blend. And it seems to work okay. People, you know. I'm a bit more brutal. Like, it's a good thing that the band the band is a mitigating factor on my more excessive tendencies which is that i would be

like clear-cutting and you know playing 14 new songs yeah i actually yeah i got that's why i'm here i mean yeah i'm just here because i'm the reason you still hear here rosie and gray at concerts you know so would you yeah in this okay and's my legal guardian so the set list yeah it's not a is that a democracy or just pretty much

yeah pretty much I mean somebody Lawrence makes the set list yeah but I mean I have to listen when you guys gripe at me or at least pretend to listen democracy sure

yeah sure but you listen to Ron's input and he's like oh this new song's gotta be but like I said it was a good blend it was a good blend of old and new

and Lawrence has also the unthankful job, unthankful? The thankless job of not only making a good set list, but then having to keep in mind, like, oh, Ron has a cable one too, and Ron's playing an acoustic guitar,

Ron's playing an electric guitar, somebody else is switching guitars, somebody's doing this. Lawrence has keyboards and harmonica and guitar, like all these things to consider. So it's a real dance to make a set list that both works together as songs and then also has no downtime

because we're all switching gears and, you know. Is it now like an automatic that like a big Toronto show is going to close with Rosie and Gray? Pretty much, yeah. That's kind of it. That's the only that goes in first

and then everything else works. It's a reliable cue that go home, you know, that it's over. Well, that was my... That was the thing, yeah. Well, it used to be and then we did the Lee's a reliable cue that go home you know it's over well that's that was my that was the thing yeah well it used to be and then we did the least palace last year they wouldn't let us leave we were literally like we had our shirts off and everything up in the dressing room it was like oh god put your shirt back on and mark our sailman was upstairs you

know if if anybody's been to least palace the bathrooms are not very easily accessible so he's upstairs in the bathroom and he goes, that sounds like Lois of the Loft. And he runs down and we're back on stage for like a fourth encore. It was like 10 minutes after we played Rosie and Gray. We had to go back and play more songs. And look, people, yeah, it was great. It was really nice.

Amazing. The other thing I was going to say, though, about playing the new songs is that there are some songs, like on this one, Midnight Marianne and 7A, there's a couple of ones that the first couple of times times i've played them i literally have a hard time singing them i'm starting to well up a little bit and i remember that feeling from peace and quiet sometimes it's just literally what it's about and sometimes there's just i guess like a frequency like a you know i guess music works with us you know you're doing a good job i guess when it's not

all intellectual and it's sort of the frequency is doing something emotionally to you. So that happens too. That's before Peace and Quiet was co-opted by the Berylco sphere in Leafs Nation. Because now, yeah, it's like, I know what it meant to you because we've talked about this in a previous episode, but now it means something else.

Now it means futility. Of course, again, that's our buddy Tim Thompson's fault, so we want to blame somebody. Okay. Speaking of 7A, here's this 11th track from Agitpop. Where will we put the ropes that bind your hands behind you? How can you fit a thousand tears on the dull end of a pen? Where the hell have you been?

We love you, we love you, we love you, we love you, we love you What is it like to see yourself? 7A 7A What can you share with us about 7A? It's one of the, you know, the record gets divided into the kind of capital P political songs that are about the macrocosm. And then there's a few still that are pulled into the microcosm of like, what does it mean to live in a society like this that is somewhat hostile and doesn't work for everybody and people react to it in very ways.

So this is one of the, I'd say there's three or four that are about, like in the genes, that are about what happens when your clothes don't fit you, you know, metaphorically. Or like, I think we all know people that we love that have the Rubik's Cube almost figured out, there's one square that can't they just cannot seem to get where it needs to go and how frustrating and uh heartbreaking it is to watch them go through it so it's sort of about that it's like and just you know i remember this is one again another

amazing thing about lost below is that lawrence and I have a great long history of him critiquing songs I'm writing before they're done. And I remember about this chorus, you know, it's just the I love you, we love you, we love you, we love you. That he was like, is it a little, and I had felt this too, is it a little, you know, as Lawrence would say to me, a little on the nose or is it a little too obvious? Like too earnest or on the nose is a good way to put it i think and i thought about it for a while and i thought you know what this is actually what i love about it is that there's no metaphor there's no artifice i'm just telling you that i love you and sometimes sometimes it's you know for people that in our life that need help sometimes it's not about trying to give them an answer trying to figure out what's wrong you know it's sometimes it's not about trying to give them an answer, trying to figure out what's wrong.

You know, it's sometimes it's just, I'm here and I love you. And you know, we'll work this out somehow. Yeah, man, I'm sorry. I questioned it.

He's pretty cold, call it callous inside. Tough affair. He was like, Oh no, it's not very fuckable. No, it doesn't talk.

I didn't don't talk like that, but you know, never a mystery would say, do any songs in this album. I don't talk like that. No, never. A mystery, you would say. Do any songs on this album exceed four minutes in length? Yes. Okay. Was that a quiz?

You want a lasagna. Yeah. Let's see if you can win the beer next. Okay, track number 12. You can do it again. Midnight Marianne Don't you understand That you're the phantom With an angel's face

and you strike that pretty pose so no one ever knows you're dancing deftly on the razor blade you're the star of your own nightmare

it's a game where the rules aren't fair But everyone has a cross to bear Sometimes A midnight merriam You've been burdened and beguiled by memories that sting like scars One day he comes around and every wound unbound is shining through you like a million stars Like a million stars And I can see that you can't see the point of it all You can't see the point of it all

So, you know, see previous explanation for 7A. It's kind of the same sort of thing, you know, another sort of lost soul. And, you know, these versions of these songs seem to be like set up what I see as the tragedy or the frustrating misunderstanding of how these people move in the world And then usually the last verse

Is some kind of promise to To be there, you know In this one it's You know From the decks Send that SOS And I'll receive it like a radio Just to let people know

I think, you know Half the time Just letting people know That they're heard Is a major part of Of mental health for people, you know? Because it's very easy to start to feel isolated. I think the low in general, you know,

there's little lines all the way through, like in Love and Justice, about, you know, you've got friends in low places, you know, we've got your back, like all these, trying to hammer home these reassuring images that, you know, we're all here together and we're here for you. And we try to be good listeners. Absolutely.

And we try to be good listeners. What? Great. That was a not listening to Lawrence Stewart. You even listened to Sammy. True. I've taken it on board, they say received it like a radio the spirit of radio

oh and also there you're hearing the beautiful strings of Alex McMaster and Lee Rose, friends of ours who got in to play the strings you know this is one other thing I would like to mention is poor David Bottrell who we hired to produce this record. I know very early on he said, I said, yeah, I've booked 14 days.

And he said, how many songs are we recording? And I said, 14. And he was, you know, he's worked with Smashing Pumpkins and Peter Gabriel and, you know, some people. I'm under the impression from the stories that maybe Peter Gabriel and Billy Corgan don't do things super quickly. So I think he was like, well,

that's pretty ambitious guy, you know? And, and, and I was like, yeah, and there's going to be horns and percussion and strings. And,

you know, so he, you know, to his credit, he didn't just run in the opposite direction. He was like, he's a tough guy. And he was like,

all right. And he sort of pulled up as I like to think he cinched up his belt and rolled up his sleeves and we got in there and, you know, and he worked his ass off and, like, all right. And he sort of pulled up his, I like to think he cinched up his belt and rolled up his sleeves and we got in there and he worked his ass off. And his job is not an easy one because he's not a sit behind the board on the phone. Yeah, all right, that's good. Do it again.

His every cell is involved. You bang out a song a day. Yeah, I want to say that was a great experience working with David Bottrell on this record. It was, it was really wonderful. And he's, I would do it again.

He is quite an artist, that man. And yeah, we didn't do it in 14 days. We wound up doing it in something like 19 studio days. And of course that's not mixing. And David will be quick to tell you that there was all kinds of like little fixie doodles that he had to do on non studio day.

So it's, but that's still you know very impressive like uh it's impressive and it's and it was an assumed ethic that we took on right off the bat was like this is what we're going to try and do and i remember like you know i remember saying to lawrence in an email i said i said i'm asking you guys to have my back because i recognize that we're trying to you know storm this pillbox at the top of the hill and we might not all come back alive but you know that's what we're shooting for we don't get there then we don't get there but but that's what i'd like to do because i i really thought you know if we had lost a few songs on

here and it became a 10 song record or 12 song record it would be a different experience and this would be a shorter podcast you know but yeah you know but ron are you still still without a mobile phone? Yeah. And is that, like, you keep an open mind? Like, I mean...

No. No, no, no. There's no open mind. Do I keep an open mind about someday having one? One day having one? Like, would you consider, I don't know,

I'm only, you're the second guest, Jerry Howarth, who called Blue Jay Games forever, same thing, no cell phone. But like, for example, you would come in here today.

If you had a flat tire, would you just borrow someone's phone? Or you would just find a pay phone? I'd set my car on fire and go home on the streetcar. Where's Ron? I'm going to make some statements that are going to make me sound like an idiot right now. But I look at phones. I don't judge people who have them. I understand how seductive they are.

I understand how they make total sense but i really do again come back to looking at them like gated snares in the 80s i sort of feel like they're toxic and overall i feel like the whole the whole society that we're developing with them is toxic in a way it wasn't before and i feel like i don't i don't see how there's any way back from it but i feel like maybe you know if aliens come down they might go that was a that was a left turn that didn't really that wasn't you know we come back to the mental health in some of these songs i think a lot of it i'm seeing it as a dad of a 13 year old is that a lot of um this generation's anxiety and depression seems to be exacerbated,

if not caused by massive addiction to devices. And, you know, so I see it on the ground and I just think it's, and I, and, and not just, you know, kids, adults. And, and I, again, I don't, I'm not standing outside of it going, you know, all you people, it's like, I know how completely seductive it is to me. And, and I remember, you know, I remember like when I first became a full me and uh and I remember you know I remember like when I first became a full-time musician and I didn't have to go to my job I would get up and I'd have plans for the day and sometimes I would sit on the couch this is when Phil Donahue was

was on tv and I I realized I would sometimes I would wind up watching Phil Donahue or have a coffee or I would do something else and and I would suddenly get a depression would set in to me that I was wasting my time or that I had plans that i didn't fulfill because i got sucked in so it's not like it's he should have watched oprah instead or geraldo or sally jesse rafael i remember but all right but i mean the beauty of it is it's i was just able to find out how many people liked the photo of mike that i tweeted is it one one or two or we had still a goose egg? It's at two now. Okay, ah.

Maybe my wife is following you. In the old days, imagine your anxiety not being able to know that. Yeah. You'd be like spinning in your head. Oh, it sounds wonderful. Now, Ron, I got to ask you, does your 13-year-old daughter have a mobile device? She has a, yes, because I'm not a brutal detective. Well, that's what I'm saying.

Well, self-preservation, I think. Yeah, it's like if she didn't have one, she would be a leper. She would be like a social outcast. Is that the day? Because I know, okay, so my oldest, I remember he got one when he was 13, which I actually thought was, his mom thought, he's got to have one. He's 13, he's got one. And I was thinking 16 was the, I don't know, what did I know?

I grew up without cell phones like yourself. But my daughter got it at 12, like earlier than 13. I'm wondering, like, by the time my next two kids come along, they're going to have phones at like 10 years old? Is this where we're going? Probably, yeah. Well, it's like every time an algorithm comes, like every time you're on Facebook and, you know,

for a little period I was getting all of these ads show up on for modern faucets because I had done a random in my basement all right you know yeah that's a retargeting yeah yeah and it's like when you when I look at that I just you know I can easily hang my head and go you know this is this is 1984 and this is the thing we railed against governments doing to us but we've done this to to ourselves. We're taking part in this and we're actually bringing it on. We're bringing it on. I think it's much worse than that now.

I think your phones are listening to you talk. Oh yeah, upstairs I got a Google Mini. At least your phone is listening. At least your phone's listening. Well, that phone really is listening, but I made it do that. That one's fine, but I mean just the ads that start appearing

that are really very specifically targeted. And you're like, how does the algorithm know that? You also know there are people in some tech place giggling because they think this is novel. Like they're just realizing this now. Yeah, I know. Sure. We're like flat Earthists or something.

So is that two, Lawrence, because Ron has no phone. We just discussed that. But you've got two phones? This is my iPod. So I make Lawrence have two phones because I don't have one. I have so much music that I couldn't fit it on my phone. He's so helpful. He carries around your phone.

Do I have one? No, Lawrence has a phone for me. Yeah. All right. If Ron gets a flat tire, I'll show up and make a call for him. Right. He just looked for the bat symbol okay so this is like you know i didn't have a watch for a very long period of time and my partner was like you

know you should have a watch i'm like every single place i go every single parking machine you know parking meter on the street right but then i saw an awesome watch and i bought it yeah all right you know where to go if it ever breaks okay so let's listen to lucky number 13 the thousand lights the thousand lights that leave you blind you leave yourself behind you raise the dead when you feel low What do you take What does it take to feel alright When it takes all your might

To raise your head from the pillow What do you need What do you need To feel the light The sun or the moon at night That feeling of now or never Warm as a moon Cold as a tomb You're two halves now

But you says we're not To be put back together A thousand dreams A thousand madness You belong A thousand lights This is great

The lights are on So, Seen in Nightmarian, 7A. It's sort of the same explanation for all of them. Well, this is kind of a little mental health break on the record. There's like a little trilogy there. It's kind of like our depression suite, you know. It's not where you, you know,

these songs are not, they're somewhat thematically linked and they've taken a bit of a break from smashing the system and, you know, burning everything to the ground To offer a little just one We're a little we're sort of the victims of our own success on this one though Cuz it's like we haven't been putting it into the set because there's so much vocal gymnastics going. Yeah. Yeah I don't think we'll ever play this one live

I just don't honestly see how we can do it because when we get into the last verse As Rama is saying he likes things to be all optimistic at the end, so we just tried to turn this into a sonic euphoria the last chorus by just layering vocals and vocals and vocals. And I think it's quite pretty. Yeah, absolutely.

And again, David did a magnificent job mixing this all together. Because this has horns, strings, five vocal parts, I think. Is it five? Yeah, five vocal parts all going at once right here in this last chorus. is behind the light behind the light that leads you back back in peace and quiet

a quiet place inside you beyond the dark beyond the dark that haunts your mind. And I'm at a trifle at last.

Will you still recognize you? A thousand lights A thousand lights That leave you blind I remember It's a big finish I remember like the first time I heard It's the End of the World as we know it When the

It's time I had some time alone Came in and the sort of counter melody of it, the counter lyrics. I was like, that sort of blew my little mind. I was like, you know, it's probably another thing that goes into your,

you know, things you hear that go in the back of your head of like, try and do that somewhere. It was probably like 1986. And then, you know, 40 years from now, put that in your back pocket,

carry it around for 40 years and there'll be a chance yeah beautiful song now first the frustrating thing with that one is that

a lot of people talk about how lush they think that is how beautiful they think that song is and it's like like yeah I know

you know I really kind of wish we could play it live but also the nature of playing live you know it's a bit diminishing return sometimes live

in that it's very hard to hear some things in the heat of the moments. So you guys, you made it. This is the final track from Agitpub. You made it. What a journey. You're okay still? Okay, because one more to go.

We've written the new record while we're sitting here, so I'm just going to dovetail right into that one. So before I play the last song thank you guys for doing this this is amazing for me and everyone listening that you guys could come

and tell us about the songs and Agitpop and I urge everybody to pick it up because as you can hear it's a beautiful album good job if anyone's still listening

thank you for hanging in with us here everybody's listening still come on and of course thank you if I. And of course, thank you. If I haven't made this clear, thank you so much for whatever you decide to do. I can't wait to discover it.

But on June 27th, thank you so much for giving up some of your Thursday evening for me at TMLX3 and for the listeners. And that's amazing. I hope you know that. I'm looking forward to that. I think it's going to be wonderful.

The Clash. Canada's The Clash is playing my birthday party. Okay, looking forward to that. I think it's going to be wonderful. The Clash. Canada's The Clash is playing my birthday party. Okay, let that sink in. Canada's Everly Brothers will be there. I'll take that. All right, here we go, guys.

Track number 14. It's your life So find your own solutions Strength or strife Oh, what's it gonna take? The queen is dead, so crown this world a new one. I thought she said, oh, let the mountie cake. Oh, let the money kick I guess it's time For the permanent revolution

Yes, it's time To blow it all away Permanent Revolution. Tell me about the agitpop capper here. The capper. tell me about the agit pop capper here the capper uh well we it's funny because uh lawrence and i i think maybe spend an inordinate amount of time thinking about where things should go on records and what you know what should be a single and what should and we both uh the guys at warner laughed i think when we when we both considered permanent revolution maybe the lead single and then also put it as the last song

on the record. Like that's the kind of thing that makes sense to us. Like, yeah. And they're like, ah, no. That's why you can't get arrested in Vancouver

right there. Probably, yeah. You gotta play the game. But look, a great closer is also a great opener. That always works. We've been playing this first

at some shows and I think it works. You can never make, you can never get a second chance to make a first impression of everything you're trying to say? Yeah, I suppose. Yeah. And other aphorisms. Yes.

Yeah, and this one's sort of like the phrase permanent revolution. I think Marx used it and Trotsky used it in differing ways, but I think in Trotsky's opinion it was about internationalism and not trying to build revolutions in a single backward country like let's say Russia so you know I mean obviously that has nothing to do with what I'm singing about there but it's like I like the phrase permanent revolution and I thought well maybe I can hijack that and use it to sort of sum up the record and sort of say, like, we need a final revolution that actually unites everybody and serves the whatever 99%.

What I love about it is all those things are going on in my mind, and there's countless different things going on musically, and David, our drummer, God bless him, I love him so much. i've known him since 1983 and sometimes people ask me you know is dave joking and i go i don't know right but he'd say he said when this came out see very like 11th hour we were almost done the song and he goes i have this idea that there needs to be a guiro at the beginning in the intro going this and it was like wow okay let's make that happen you know and it's a thing that you know

I think Dave loves and I'm not sure anybody else notices that it's there or they hear it as part of the song but he was adorably interested well look there is one more that's how you know it's time to go home this was kind of a failed one we didn't we don't know why this hasn't served and

I refuse to I like your you remade it but you lost the the long oh that's right it just starts yeah and it's like I missed it because I'm talking over it that's why it's perfect but you're right I have a Pavlov dog reaction. If I hear this in the wild, yeah, I think I have to, I'm getting kind of anxious. Like I got to wrap things up.

Like it feels like I'm being played off. Like it's definitely in like after 479 episodes. Cause yes. Wonderful song. Agitpops. Great. Thanks guys so much. I'll see you on June 27th. Don't bring me a gift. Your presence is enough. Please, don't even think about it. So, that. We're just going to let that sit there.

I don't know. You have anything? Oh, no, you're going to sing? Oh, my God. That brings us to the end of our 479th show. You can follow me on Twitter. I'm at Toronto Mike. Now, Ron, of course, is not on Twitter.

You're on Facebook, though. Yeah, you chime in with the Facebook for Lois and Lo. Is that how it works? Old people are on Facebook? That's what I've gleaned, yeah, from the kids. That's what my kids say, too. Lois and Lo are at Lois and Lo, but Lawrence, you're also on Twitter. I am. I am on

Twitter. LR Nichols. LR Nichols. Yeah. And it's not like Bernie Nichols. L.R. Nichols. L.R. Nichols. Yeah. And it's not like Bernie Nichols. It's a different Nichols. It's a different Nichols with only one L. Right. Yes.

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Capadia LLP. See you all next week. For me and you But I'm a much better man For having known you Oh, you know that's true Because everything is coming up Rosy and green Yeah, the wind is cold But the smell of snow Wants me today

And your smile is fine And it's just like mine