Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Marc Merilainen (Nadjiwan): Toronto Mike'd #1596

Episode Date: December 9, 2024

In this 1596th episode of Toronto Mike'd, Mike chats with Marc Merilainen from Nadjiwan about growing up in Thunder Bay, his indigenous roots, his career in music, Buffy Sainte-Marie and other pretendians, land acknowledgements, and The Mission. Toronto Mike'd is proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, Ridley Funeral Home, The Yes We Are Open podcast from Moneris and RecycleMyElectronics.ca. If you would like to support the show, we do have partner opportunities available. Please email Toronto Mike at [e-mail]

Welcome to episode 1596 of Toronto Mic'd. Proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, a fiercely independent craft brewery who believes in supporting communities, good times and brewing amazing beer. Order online for free local home delivery in the GTA. Palma Pasta Enjoy the taste of fresh, homemade Italian pasta and entrees from Palma Pasta in Mississauga and Oakville. Season 7 of Yes We Are Open, an award-winning podcast from Minaris, hosted by FOTM Al Gregor, RecycleMyElectronics.ca Committing to our planet's future means properly recycling our electronics of the past.

And Ridley Funeral Home, pillars of the community since 1921. Joining me today, making his Toronto Mic debut, is Mark Merlainen. How did I do Mark on that surname? You did great actually. Did I?

You did, you really did. Okay, cause I'm sweating bullets over here. Okay. You have no idea. But you know, it's one of those words where it sounds like it should, like that's how when you read it, it's Merlainen and that's exactly how you pronounce it. That's right.

Or if you were in Finland, it'd actually be pronounced Mary Leinen. Oh, like a Leinen, the hockey player. Okay. That's right, exactly. And it's funny, because I don't normally go back to back with these Toronto Miked recordings,

but I was at my son's hockey game at Lampson Arena on Saturday, and my phone rings, and I look at my phone and it's Mike Richards, okay? Now, when Mike Richards calls you you accept the charges okay mark so I pick up that a mark Mike what's going on what are you doing Monday morning I have a wonderful singer we're gonna have a chat it's Mark Merlainen and he's like what time is that and I said well he's

gonna be here for 11 o'clock. Can I come on Toronto mic? This is Mike Richards. He says, can I come on Toronto mic before that? I have a major announcement to make. I'm like, yeah, you have from 9.30 to 10.30. So you guys actually crossed each other's, like in the hallways of the TMDS studio. We're going back to back and you and Mike crossed paths.

That's right. Like you had a brush of greatness and you don't even realize it. I didn't even realize it, that's right. Like you had a brush of greatness and you don't even realize it. I didn't even realize it, that's right. But good to meet you my friend. You live in Toronto now, you've lived here for many years, but I'm wondering if we go back and learn more about you. I have some of your great music, but you were raised in Thunder Bay. That's right, good old Thunder Bay, northwestern Ontario, the lakehead as we call it, up there. I spent, geez I don't know how many years there, 20 something odd years there.

And it's interesting how our family just kind of ended up there. My dad was a miner for many years so basically he followed where the work went. So a lot of, well my siblings and I were actually born in different provinces because it depends on where he was working at the time. I was actually born in Lynn Lake, Manitoba, which is really far up north Manitoba. I have no family or connections up there other than the fact that my dad was working there the year I was born.

And coincidentally, Tom Cochran is also from Lynn Lake. You know what? You took the words right out of my mouth. Shout out to Meat Loaf and shout out to Ridley Funeral Home as we shout out Meatloaf. But, Lynn Lake I know because it's the birthplace of Tom Cochran. That's right. It is, yeah. And it's funny, a number of years ago I bumped into Tom Cochran at a studio party. I think it was Metalworks.

And again, I don't really know him but just, you know, hey, you're from Lynn Lake, so am I. And I think that was the extent of the conversation. Well, that to me is, how, you're from Lynn Lake, so am I. And I think that was the extent of the conversation. Well, that to me is how do you not like like if you're Lynn Lake is not it's not exactly Winnipeg, right? So if you have that in common with a great singer, songwriter, songwriter like Tom Cochran, how you're in the same room as him. Like, how do you resist the urge to share that fun fact with him?

That's right. You just got to only human mark. Exactly. And it's interesting because he's the only other person I know that is like famous, that is from, you know, Linlake, Manitoba. I mean, there's wonderful people from Linlake, I'm sure. But yeah, it was, it's weird because you never meet anyone from such a small town like that. No, and lest we forget, Tom Cochran, who's also an FOTM, that means friend of Toronto Mike, he's been on the program. You, Mark, are now an FOTM. Awesome. Can't wait to learn more about you, play some of your music.

But lest we forget, Tom Cochran penned a number one Billboard Hot 100 hit. How many Canadians can make that claim? Not too many. Not too many at all. That's right. Especially in the pre-streaming era. I always feel like now when it comes to charts and you know, chart smarts, but if you're going to do the whole chart talk and all that, there's a pre-streaming era and there's a post-streaming era and now it's completely different. So back in the Tom Cochran, life is a highway days, he needed to sell singles, he needed radio airplay, like it was a whole different game. Now it's like, now it's maybe a rather

different algorithm to top that chart. But you and Tom Cochran from Lynn Lake, Manitoba, but you were not raised in Lynn Lake because you were raised in Thunder Bay. That's right. So I think it was maybe not even a year after I was born. My dad got another job and this was in, I think it was Shibandawan Mines. It's about an hour west of Thunder Bay. So of course our home base at the time was Thunder Bay. And then I ended up going to school there, high school, and spent, I guess like I said, the first 20 years of my life there.

And then after, when it came time to go to college and university, I actually left Thunder Bay for London, Ontario. And I went to music industry arts program, which was a fantastic program. It's all about the music industry. It's not just learning how to write and perform music, but it's all about engineering, producing music,

as well as learning about contracts and other facets of the music industry. And a lot of our professors actually were, you know, working in the industry at that time. My production professor was the wonderful late Jack Richardson, who now, of course, that we have the Producer of the Year Award named after him at the Junos.

We had a lot of great other faculty members as well. And Jack was definitely one of the many mentors I've had over my lifetime, and I learned a lot from him and from the program, and I'm a lot from him and from the program. And I'm still with friends with a lot of people that went to the program, because they're actively working in the music industry. Well, Jack Richardson, that's a monster name.

It is, yeah, fantastic. He's a lot of great credits. Of course, the Guess Who, Alice Cooper. That's the first one that pops into my mind, yeah. And we even heard demos from Brighton Rock back in the day when they were first, you know Getting going Niagara Falls, right? Niagara Falls. That's their FOTM to that's right. There you go. So So yes, I'm thinking of Bob Roper. Shout out to Bob Roper

I feel like Bob Roper had a role in getting it was a warner or whatever the deal for Brighton Rock I believe so. That's right. And Bob and I actually friends on Facebook. So hi Bob Okay and I feel like Brighton Rock was sort of lumped in with Honeymoon Suite, and that they were sort of like, I don't want to call it the Kirkland brand, Honeymoon Suite.

That's disrespectful, the Brighton Rock, but you know exactly what I mean there. I think I do. And I think some members from Honeymoon Suite actually were in the Music Industry Arts Program. I think they were like a year or two ahead of me, but I remember a lot of people went to the program and a lot of people are doing a lot of great things including John Beatle Bailey who's I think he's got

Juno and a Grammy under his belt and he's doing all these great engineering and producing projects. Okay, goodness gracious here. You know the original lyrics to New Girl Now which was the big you know the big song. It won like a whole a Q107 homegrown contest or something like which was the big, you know, the big song, right? And it won like a whole, a Q107 homegrown contest or something. Like this was the big break. But it goes like this, Hot Summer Nights. And that's the opening line. But originally, because I had the guys on and we played the original demo, it was Cold Winter Nights.

Like they completely flipped it and then it became this huge hit. That's right new girl now here Okay, so shut up the honeymoon suite and now I feel like if I don't mention the fact that Rob Proust who has just composed the new closing theme, which is the cover of Rosie and Grey by lowest of the low but Rob Proust was of course the keyboardist for the spoons and their glory days But he was also the keyboardist for honeymoon suite. their glory days, but he was also the keyboardist for Honeymoon Suite. Oh, okay. So you know, Mark is all connected here. There you go. All right, speaking of connected, how are you connected to our indigenous community? Well, my background is Ojibwe. So the community that I'm registered with is the Chippewas of Nowish. That's located just

a little bit north of Owen Sound in the Bruce Peninsula. And that's where a lot of my family members still live, as well. But we've also married into other communities. My sisters live in Attica Manching, which is just outside of Sudbury, Ontario. And they've married into that community. So I spend more time there than I

do in the actual community that I'm registered in. And then my mother actually was born and raised in Wauquamakon and that's on Manitouan Island. So we have a connection there and there's actually a street named after a family, Nadjuwan Lane, where the old family, you know, homestead used to be, it's not there anymore. That was many years ago. So I guess we have connections to three different communities here in Ontario. But again, I'm actually registered at RMS-ESCAR says I'm from Cape Coker, Chippewas and Natchewan.

Okay, and you said Natchewan. So you have a musical project, you've named Natchewan, and I was going to ask you what that name means. But it sounds like we're getting the history right. Yeah. So Natchewan actually means beautiful. I mean, some people will contest that. But I think most people will agree it means beautiful. And I wanted people will contest that but I think most people will agree it means beautiful and I wanted to name the project kind of after that family lineage because that's what a lot of the song content you know and thematically what I was trying to trying to do. I used to be in a band many many years ago before I started this called Small House Stories and that's kind of how I got started in the music business

when I was about 20 years old. We were in one of those battle the band contests with the local radio station. And then we won the contest and we got a recording contract. Wow, similar to the story we just told of Honeymoon Suite. There you go. I think that's how it happens. These are the seeds of how these creative projects happen.

But what radio station? I want to say it was Rock 94. If you have to struggle to come up with it, it's not as momentous to you as it would be to me. I would never forget the station. Yeah, I believe it was Rock 94 because I think the station still exists. And whenever I go to Thunder Bay, the station hasn't changed their playlist. It's stuck in 1996. Still ACDC? Oh, in 1996.

Yeah, so there's ACDC, but there's also Pearl Jam and of course, like the grunge stuff mixed with the classic rock. And you need the Can-Con, so I'm guessing a lot of like Our Lady Peace maybe. Yes, that's right. Our Lady Peace, the Arkelles. And the Tragically Hip probably. Lots of Tragically Hip, yes.

Of course, you've got to fulfill that Can-Con requirement. That's right. And there's Daniel Anwar they spent too, so there's another texture there. Shed out to the Hammer. Oh my gosh, so much ground we're going to cover. I have the Nijawan music I'm going to play, of course. But I'm curious about, so you're a proud Indigenous man and that makes you, you are eligible for like Canadian Aboriginal Music Awards or Native American Music Awards or the

Indigenous Music Awards. We've got these, these are awards sort of earmarked for musicians of Indigenous descent, right? That's correct, yes. Have you won any of these? No, you know, I've been nominated over the past, but I've never won anything. You're like Susan Lucci

of the Canadian Aboriginal Music Awards. That's what I say. Or like Leonardo DiCaprio. For many years, he didn't win an Oscar, then he finally won. Then he finally won. But I'm thinking I have to fight a bear to win an award. Because he had to fight a bear to win his Oscar. Then he finally won. So finally won, but I'm thinking I have to fight a bear to win the war because he had to

fight a bear to win his Oscar. So, uh, right. We'll see what happens. Right. I think there's the equivalent now. I believe it's Glenn Close. Like, so Glenn Close, I believe, and I don't have the number in front of me. I'd have to Google it.

Okay. But Glenn Close has been nominated for several Oscars and I don't believe she's ever wanted. So you're sort of the Glenn Close Canadian Aboriginal music was, so let's again, so this is the home of Real Talk and we're going to dive into your career, but I got to ask you a question that I've wondered for years now. So it's regarding Buffy, say Marie. Okay, sure. Okay. All right. So I'll set it up and then we'll hear from you, of course. But I am curious about, so there was the fifth estate did a documentary. You probably saw it. Did you see it? I did. I did. I did yeah okay and there was some evidence presented some some rather

compelling evidence that she although has been adopted by an indigenous community as an adult in her 20s that she's not actually she's not part of the 60s scoop as we refer to it and she wasn't actually from an indigenous family she was raised by a Italian Americans in the United States of America and then in her 20s She is adopted by an indigenous family Correct. That's those so far so good. So far so good. That's right So I like and heavy questions off the top. I almost feel bad for you mark, but don't feel bad

I just did a CBC panel on this topic that's gonna air to next week or eat this week. Okay, let's steal their thunder Okay, okay, and what show is that gonna be for? You know, I can't remember. It's just like Roth 94. It's one of the CBC news shows that they do. Okay. Okay, long live the CBC. What time is it still around?

Pure poly of our prime minister yet? Oh my goodness, I love, by the way, I love the CBC. I had Brent Bambery and Ralph Ben-Murgy here just a week ago, just to shoot the breeze down here. I love these guys from CBC radio. And Ralph hasn't been there a long time, but Brent's still there doing day six. Okay, so two places I wanna go here.

One is Buffy St. Marie has won, I know of at least one, but she has won an award that's earmarked for an indigenous musician. Right, she's won a couple. She's won multiple. She's won two Junos, but's won two Junos, but these are not Junos for her music. This is Junos for an Indigenous artist's music. Correct, that's right.

And there is a movement to rescind those awards from her because she doesn't qualify, not even just on the aspect that she's not Indigenous, but she's not even Canadian. Yeah, she's not Canadian. That's right. Right. So let me hear your take. Like, like, do you feel that she should give these back so they can go to somebody who an actual indigenous person who would be deserving of these awards but was overlooked because Buffy takes a lot of that that heat because she's so famous? That's right. Absolutely. I think the award should be returned. I think she should do the right thing. And especially when she won the junior in 2018, that technically should have gone to Kelly Fraser. And unfortunately, Kelly Fraser took her own life

a number of years ago. So it'd be nice to rescind the award and give it to Kelly's family because everyone thought Kelly was gonna win the award that year. And to be honest with you, Buffy was quite arrogant about winning the award. Again, we have mutual friends.

And I just don't approve of what she's done. And what a way to end your legacy in being dishonored and in shame like that. So she was tipped off the Fifth Estate thing was coming obviously and then suddenly she retires from performing and does her final interviews and stuff and she just lays very low right now but she did change her bio on her official website to no longer allude to the 60 scoop as it's known. That's right. Well her son Cody actually came out three years ago and told everyone this but no one no one actually listened to him. That's

interesting too because I did read about this like the tanning regiments and stuff to keep the skin to be darker and the way the hair and the way to speak and everything. And what bothers me, and again, we're similar vintage, I'm a bit younger, but I was raised on Sesame Street. Oh yeah, so was I. Yeah, me too. And when I was tuning into Sesame Street in the late 70s, my favorite person on that show

was Buffy St. Marie. Absolutely. Far way before the fifth estate revelation. I would say on this very program that I thought considered her like my other mother. Like it really does break my heart because she knowingly deceived me and others. And I was personally offended and hurt by what she did. And I wish she'd just come clean and apologize. And maybe I wish she would just like tell us like, why? Like, and even if it's like I did it because I need you know

I was just a run-of-the-mill singer songwriter italian-american from trying to remember what state she's from Uh, but it's a northeast state, but it looks right. It'll come to me later main or something. I can't remember but uh, like just come clean, but she seemed strangely like uh, Stubborn on this as if like, no, I'm indigenous because a family did adopt her as an adult, but she presented herself as having Canadian indigenous roots. And, but, but my opinion in my, I don't think my opinion matters. I'm a, uh, like my grandparents lived in Ireland.

Like, I don't think I have, I have no indigenous roots that I know of, but you, of course, I would be very interested in your thoughts on what Buffy did and how you feel about the fact she's just kind of living out her life in Hawaii in radio silence, and she won't even own that she misled us intentionally all those years. Yeah, I know, it is terrible.

I mean, even when the first sort of fifth estate episode dropped, I think it was a huge bombshell and I think it's taken months, if not an entire year for our community to kind of get over it and we're over it now. Now we're looking for justice actually. And you watch coming in 2025, there's going to be a movement, a legal movement, if you will, going against pretendians. We call them pretendians.

And we actually started a program at our company, Maryland in Music, and I also run a label. It's called the VIP program. That stands for Verified Indigenous Performer. So we're verifying indigenous musicians. So this doesn't happen in the future, because there's quite a few pretendians still in the marketplace taking all the money.

Do you want to name any? Someone already has. If you go to the ghost warrior society, they already named names. And if you go to Frank, you remember Frank magazine, the political magazine? Yeah, of course. Well, they've already done a front page story on someone

on one of the pretend Ian's. Okay, so my only, my Frank, my issue was they would have a thing, a very serious thing, and then it would be beside this ridiculous like, so it was tough to take everything thing, a very serious thing, and then it would be beside this ridiculous leg. So it was tough to take everything Frank published. They didn't have the credibility as a CBC would have with that's right. That's right. Right.

Right. Right. Whatever. But I am curious if there's a pretend Ian out there who may be a musician or something that's presenting that you don't have to name names, obviously. Well, this is a well known musician too. So the community is aware and we're actually doing something about it.

That process is taking place. Can you give me a clue? You know, I'll tell you off camera. Okay. Well, because there's gonna be legal proceedings happening in 2025. Right, you know, I don't wanna, off camera, you'll give me the name. I'll tell you exactly.

Give me a heads up on what might happen in 2025 here. Oh, wow, okay. So interesting to get your views cause I can tell you give you a heads up on what might happen in 2025 here. Oh wow. Okay, so Interesting to get your views because I can tell you this so I was very vocal off the top after the fifth estate Which I watched multiple times because I had to like see it multiple times and the evidence was so compelling and Then I was so hurt by it all like on this very program. I would basically talk about this the pain I felt and I'm again just program, I would basically talk about this, the pain I felt. And I'm again, just a, just a white dude with European ancestry here. But I was so hurt by this. And then people, and I won't name the names, but FOTMs seemed very, very protective. Like it doesn't matter. They would get kind of angry at me. Like it, our Bergman came on this show and almost punched me. Oh no. Yeah. I know,

our Birdman came on the show and almost punched me. Oh no. Yeah, I know. You know, he's got the Order of Canada. Come on. But, so does Buffy, by the way. Like does she have to give that back? I think that'll be... She's not even Canadian.

She's not even Canadian, that's right. But I think a lot of people are experiencing cognitive dissonance over this issue because, again, I'm not in everyone's heads, but there's something about the truth that affects people's delusions about reality. And they don't want that that delusion changed because then then they got to start questioning other things in their life too, right? So no, absolutely. And I think there's a time period where you sort of digest and process.

And I think for a lot of these people who right away were, I have the names, okay, I have the receipts, but they were jumping. How dare you basically like she, what she did for the indigenous community, like Mike, what have you done? And I'm like, well, I'm not indigenous, you know? I have a forum here and good people like yourself are welcome to come on and chat me up anytime you want. But, and I did actually take great efforts

to get Buffy St. Marie on Toronto Mike before the fifth estate revelation, because she was my second mother when I was growing up. But it is fascinating to hear your take on that and that there's this legal movement in 2025. I would love to see the late. Please remind me. Is it Kelly Frazier?

Kelly Frazier. That's right. She was a wonderful Anouk artist from up north. Tell me about Kelly. And that that name is interesting because there's a famous referee in hockey named Carrie Frazier, who missed the the high stick Wayne Gretzky high sticked Doug Gilmore in game seven of the Campbell Conference final when he was with the LA Kings and Toronto was supposed to win that series to go face

the Montreal Canadiens in the Stanley Cup final this is 1993 okay and I still have that's Wendell Clark but in in the washroom, if you use it, you'll see Doug Gilmore there. Like that's my team. Okay. That was my team. So this is not Carrie Fraser. Okay. Kelly Fraser, Kelly Fraser. That's right. So tragic to hear that she's no longer with us. That's right. She had a wonderful record that was nominated for Juno that you're called Sedna. And she was really working hard in the industry. She was an independent artist, so she was kind of doing everything herself, financing everything herself, and we tried to help her as best as we can.

She did a lot of recordings at our studio at Maryland Music. And we developed quite a friendship. And we were in the process of actually recording her next record, which is 90% done. Wow. So it's actually complete. She has a whole new record.

Now it's just trying to work at trying to figure out timing and speaking with a family to release it as well as I'd like to set up a bursary or some kind of scholarship fund, cause she was always really, she was a big activist, you know, for indigenous, uh, you know, uh, rights and other sort of issues. And we'd like to see someone from her community, whether they use that scholarship to go to university or pursue their dreams. So we'd like to set that up.

So again, that's something we're working on in the coming year. Okay, you mentioned now a couple of times, Maryland and music. That's right. So do you have a studio? We do, we have a studio on Ronson's Fills, which is our home production studio.

All right, Around the Horn is on Ronson's, am I right? That's right. And they sell Great Lakes beer there and I met the owner actually. It's like 50 feet away from us. Okay. Oh, I know exactly where you are then. Then we're there. That's right.

We're just down there. And yeah, so we do, it's mostly, we're not really a commercial studio. We're not open so someone can book us for whatever they wanna do. It's mostly for our artists. And I do a lot of pre-production there for records before we go out and record the record wherever we may go.

And we also actually tape a podcast show called The Church of Mark there, which I started a few years ago. And I mean, we talked to a variety of different people, but I wanna say 90% of our guests are indigenous artists and creators. Yeah, you've been doing some important work in the rise of indigenous music in this country,

and you're supporting these artists, and that's amazing. So congrats on that. Well, thank you so much. I mean, I've had so much help and support over the years, and I'm kind of at the stage in my life where it feels like I need to give back, and that's what the community should all be about. So you're giving back in many ways, but you're still making new music yourself.

So this, I want to speak specifically about this indigenous music project, Najowan, which we referred to earlier. So you have a new album. It's called the mission. That's right. And you didn't record that in Ronses. No, we didn't. We went to New Mexico to do that.

We were on the Apache Reservation in Mescalero County. So, now I'm thinking of that Johnny Appleseed by Joe Strummer and the Mescaleros. Oh yeah, okay. Put that in my head, which was okay. Quick tangent, we're coming right back to The Mission, okay, my friend, but there was this show, it only got one season on HBO, it was called John from Cincinnati. And I loved this

show. I just loved the show. No one did, but it came on after The Sopranos. So I mean, it did have that big pilot after The Sopranos, which is kind of what you want, especially back then. But it only got one season. I mean, this is a show that literally had both Zach Morris and Dylan McKay. So Zach Morris is a character from Saved by the Bell. Dylan McKay is a character from 90210. But the actors who played those heartthrobs were both in this darn show. I love this show, but the theme song to that show was Joe Strummer and the Mescaleros, Johnny Appleseed. So neither here nor there, but you're in New Mexico. So why did you go to New Mexico to record the mission?

You know, that's a really good question. And it has a great answer. So Ron and I, we've both been working in and out of New Mexico for the past couple of decades. Who's Ron? Oh, sorry, Ron Skinner, who is my co-producer and engineered the record. Ron also was a producer for CBC Radio.

I mean, he's now retired. And he's been spending a lot of time in Clovis, New Mexico, working with the Norman Petty studio there. And so that's the studio that's recorded a lot of great rock and roll acts from the 50s and 60s, including Buddy Holly. So the studio still exists. So he's actually working with them,

trying to maintain that studio, because it is a historic sort of building and business. So, and I spent a lot of time in New Mexico. I've been down there, maybe I first went down there 20 years ago now. And actually one of my good friends and guitar sort of that manufactures my guitars is called Longbow Guitars.

And he's based in New Mexico, and that's John Longbow, based in Rio Rancho, New Mexico. And he's built the awesome Nadjuwan Signature Series electric guitar that I use on my recordings. So we went down to New Mexico because we're familiar with it. And we love the state. We love going down there. There's a lot of great people, a lot of great food,

a lot of great scenery. We weren't too far from the White Sands. If anyone's been to New Mexico, there's this wonderful, it's a national park, I believe, it's called the White Sands. And basically it looks like snow, but it is sand and it goes on for miles and miles. And you can see it from a hundred miles away driving to it.

And it's been there for thousands of years and it's actually not sand, it's gypsum that have come down from the mountains and just through years of erosion and rain ended up in this valley. And there's just dunes and dunes of this white sand. Looks like snow. And they even have toboggans. You can actually go down some of the dunes if you want.

Sounds amazing. And then the other part of New Mexico was in the mountains. So we were recording about 6,900 feet above sea level. And then being that high above sea level, of course, that takes a toll on your oxygen. So I couldn't even make it through any of the songs, like singing, without having to take a break. I had to take a break halfway.

Yeah, because I just couldn't get the oxygen in to sing. No, interesting. OK, so I have tracks that I'm going to play from the mission. And you're going to bury me in information on this Okay, so I have tracks that I'm going to play from the mission and you're going to bury me in information on this. I love the detail. But I'm going to ask you a couple of, now that we've got to know you a lot better now, but can you tell me about Sultans of String?

Yes, I've been working with the Sultans of String in this wonderful project, collaborative project called Walking Through the Fire. Chris McCool, who is the band leader and- Is that a real name? It is a real name. That's amazing. I know, it is awesome. This is like the coolest name, Chris McCool.

So he had reached out to me a few years ago asking if I want to be part of this project. And of course I said yes, cause I see it as amazing opportunity to further promote indigenous music and also to get this music into maybe venues that we may not have been able to perform before because we've been performing with various symphonies.

We performed with the Winnipeg Symphony Orchestra. We performed with the Niagara Symphony Orchestra. We performed with the Stratford Orchestra. So as well as the Scarborough Bluffs Symphony as well. And we have more shows coming in the new year as well. There's a Scarborough Bluffs Symphony. That's right They actually have a symphony. Oh, hey, it's Scarborough. Yeah, I did not know that I think feel like Lawrence Gowans got to be a part of that symphony. Okay, the Scarborough Bluffs

That's only reason I mentioned. Okay. Yeah, and yeah, they're a great group of players But it was a really great treat playing with of course the, the Winnipeg Symphony because they're world class. Right. Amazing. And then again, getting to the mission, I'm going to give you some gifts and then we're going to get to the mission and can't wait to play this music and talk about it. But you also performed at the 2010 Vancouver Winter Olympics. Yes, that's right.

We did. So what, just give me a, what was that like? I watched it very closely on TV here from Toronto. What a successful Olympics there for us. And of course it ends with a golden goal by Sidney Crosby. But like, can you tell me a little bit about performing there? Yeah, I mean the whole time was crazy.

Also the call just came out of the blue. I was sitting at home and we had just released a record and then I got a call from the Olympics. Is we Najowan? Is that, or like who is we just released? Oh, my wife I got a call from the Olympics. Is we Najowan? Or who is we just released? Oh, my wife. I always bring my wife in because she actually technically manages me as well,

and everything we do is kind of like a unit. It takes a village. And then we also refer to everyone else in the project. That includes, of course, Ron, producer, and of course, I've worked with the same bandmates now for the past decade. Okay, shout out the bandmates, and then we'll get back to Vancouver.

Yeah, so shout out to Alex Mine, my drummer. Shout out to Adam Gamori. Shout out to Jean-Paul De Rovere. And a big shout out to Kevin Laliberté, who also plays with the Sultans, who's just come on as additional guitar player. Okay, amazing. And so when you played at the Vancouver Winter Olympics, was that for athletes or was that like, in what context? We were contacted by the province of Ontario because they had a Ontario house set up there. So we played, we were one of the many acts from Ontario.

Every night during the Olympics, they had a band from Ontario at Ontario house. Amazing. Various, I can't even name them all, but they were all quite well known, famous. Like are we talking like what would Blue Rodeo be playing? I'm thinking of Ontario bands. Yeah, they're all, yeah, that's right. They all would have been done at Ontario. Whoever was big during 2010, they were playing Ontario. So we were asked to do a show. And of

course we said yes. And it was fantastic. They drove us around in limos and they treated us like stars. And we had a great, great time because it was a really good energy in Vancouver at the time. Oh, I remember seeing the, yeah, it looked like like a great energy now you got driven around in limos I recall they put Wayne Gretzky in the back of a pickup truck. Oh, did you remember that like he had the the Olympic torch? And he's in the back and I was like, oh, this is the most Canadian We just saw Paris and what they did for their opening. That's right The opening ceremony of the the summer games there, but we know we put the great one in the back of a pickup truck. Great one though. The stock is a little tarnished now because he partied hard at Mar-a-Lago when Donald Trump was elected.

That's right. That's what I heard. That's what I heard. No, I believe his wife put it all over Instagram. So Janet Jones there, but the great one, still a great hockey player. We'll leave his politics aside for this conversation. But he's in the back of a pickup, but you, my friend, you, Mark, are in a limo. Yes, yeah, so they drove us around a limo and we had a great time. And on the ride back to the airport,

it was like one of those party buses. There's a stripper pole in there, but no strippers, of course. No strippers, okay. That's the unsanctioned party bus, not the official Ontario House one. So tell me then, in 2015, five years later, we here in Toronto, we don't get an Olympics in Toronto, but we do get a Pan Am Games. And it came with a lot of really great infrastructure, like the Aquatic Centre and some new bike

lanes. And there's a lot of good stuff that came with it. I'll say shout out to the Pan Am Games. And Andre Degrasse made a name for himself in those games as well. But you got to play the 2015 Pan Am Games here in Toronto. Yes, it was again a great time. It was the stage was set up down at Fort York.

It was outdoors, perfect evening, great group of people, great audience. And yeah, we just played our hearts out. I love playing these live shows outdoors. I mean, there are pros and cons of playing outdoors. Of course, there's mosquitoes sometimes and humidity, but it's always a great time. I love outdoor shows, especially when temps are in,

the double digits. That's right. But I love an outdoor show. Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean, we played an outdoor show once in the winter. It was during the 2000 Y2K down at Harborfront Center and it was like freezing cold, but they had like heaters on stage. So we were able to do it. Yeah. Nice, nice, nice. Few gifts here before I'm going to play the, the title track, the mission. We're going to talk

about it, but I have now again, the timing is such that I think I have it. I'm expecting a delivery this morning of a frozen lasagna. So I'm going to make is such that I think I have it. I'm expecting a delivery this morning of frozen lasagna. So I'm going to make it. If I don't have it, I will bike it to Ron sees to the studio. So you are going to get a frozen lasagna from Palma pasta. Oh, great. There are Mississauga and Oakville delicious, authentic Italian food. You're going to love it.

They just hosted us at TMLX 17 a couple of weekends ago at their Palmas kitchen location. But you can go there, get all your holiday requirements. What is it called? Penetone, I'm trying to remember. These are the Italian, Penetone I think it's called. But there's just delicious, authentic Italian food. So thank you, Palma Pasta. Great Lakes Brewery, that's what they serve at

around the horn there in Ronsey's. That's right, they do. They've sent over, Mike Richards was here, okay, drank himself. I think you're here at 11 o'clock, you probably don't want to down a beer, I didn't make any assumptions here, but Mike Richards was here at 9 30 and cracked open his kind of pale ale here. But you've got some fresh craft beer from Great Lakes. Super. So you got that. I also have, again, let me grab it here. Here I am, this is going back to back. I'm not even set up.

Okay, I have a measuring tape from Ridley Funeral Home. They're in the neighborhood here. They're pillars of this community and they have a great podcast called Life's Undertaking. Brad Jones hosted it and I highly recommend it. He talks about life, death. It's a really wonderful podcast. Speaking of wonderful podcasts,

this is a wireless speaker for you, Mark. Oh, awesome. It's a really wonderful podcast. Speaking of wonderful podcasts, this is a wireless speaker for you, Mark. Oh, awesome. Oh, thank you so much. Monaris sent that over. Oh, wicked. And Monaris gently urges you to listen to season seven of Yes, We Are Open, which is an award-winning podcast

where Al Grego went to Winnipeg. Well, he went to Winnipeg, and he talked to small business owners about their triumphs and their tribulations and their journey. And we get great stories about small business owners and what it takes to succeed in this big bad world. But then he also did some episodes here in Ontario because the final episode of season seven was just dropped, features Retro Festive, which is a great holiday pop culture store

in Oakville. And Ty, the Christmas guy, is an FOTM and he was at TMLX17 and he was interviewed by the aforementioned Al Grego. So listen to season seven of Yes We Are Open from Meneris. And last but not least, because you're a musician, I'm going to guess you have some maybe some old cables. I don't know, you have old devices, old laptops, you have old electronics that haven't maybe they haven't been booted up in a decade. Who knows what's going on over

there, but don't throw those old electronics and cables in the garbage because those chemicals end up in our landfill. Go to recyclemyelectronics.ca put in your postal code and then find out where, oh, there's a place here in Ron sees I can drop it off and then it will be properly recycled. You got it, Mark? You got it, yeah. All right, let's play some music, buddy. Let's hear it. All right. ["Take Them Out Their World"]

Take them at their word, even if it's absurd Listen to what they say, and watch them do it anyway Break in their machine, and wash until it's clean Let's not make it the man, you take the man You take the man and run We're starting with the opening track here. I have some of the singles loaded up as well, but please just maybe a little bit about like So you mentioned it's the 30th anniversary of Nagewan. That's right 30th 30th anniversary years. I know who'd have thought it

Barely 30 yourself. I'm doing the math over here my goodness gracious, but tell me the process and like When you write and just then how and how the the album came to be the mission? Well the mission material for the mission actually came together really quick because I had a call from Ron Skinner saying you know we should do the next record let's do it in Mexico and that was literally a month maybe just over a month that we had to put the material together so in that three to four weeks I started you know writing some songs and I actually didn't complete even lyrics until we got to New Mexico and I wrote a lot of lyrics while

we were in the actual the church where we did the recording. And it was a St. Joseph mission. St. Joseph mission that's right it's a it's over a hundred year old church it's located on the Apache Reservation. That's cool like it's cool just to have like a makeshift studio in like a hundred year old church. It's located on the Apache reservation. That's cool. Like it's cool just to have like a makeshift studio in like a a hundred year old church. Yeah, the acoustics in there are just fantastic. And it's the construction of that church is quite amazing. You kind of have to see it for yourself.

And there's actually another church owned by sort of the same parish that we went to. It's in the middle of the desert. It's not even on a map. So we had to get someone to draw us a map, like on a napkin and go out in the middle of the same parish that we went to it's in the middle of the desert it's not even on a map so we had to get someone to draw some app like on a napkin and go out in the middle of desert and we took some pictures out there it wouldn't have been suitable for recording because at that place in the middle of the desert there was no electricity and then we couldn't

obviously use generators they'd be too noisy for recordings so we ended up at st. Joseph mission which was located in the heart of the res in Escalero and had electricity and more importantly had bathrooms. Oh yeah, you know, although you don't need a bathroom. Of course not, that's right. But amazing. Now storytelling, you know, maybe I'll let this take us to the next song, which was a single from this album, and then I'm going to ask you about storytelling through music. Sure. Here we go. Take the man, you take me back, take me back

Take me back, take me back, take me back Take me back, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, take me there, Hold back secrets not to tell Those years kept hitting on too well Turned back your head to face the truth After all, you got nothing to lose Mark, what's Not Undone about? You know, Not Undone actually is one of the songs on the record that is at least a decade old, maybe a little older than that, it was a song I wrote back in 2009. I was asked by CBC to be a part of this concert

called the Stolen Children's Series Concert. So it was various indigenous musicians and their parents. So it was myself and my mother, who's a residential school survivor. So she started off the show. So it was myself and my mother, who's a residential school survivor. So she started off the show, speaking about some of her experiences. And she did an opening prayer. And then we went into the song.

And it was a song that I wrote especially for that concert. And since then, you know, I've always loved the song, but just couldn't find a place to put it on a record because it just didn't seem to fit the other songs thematically until now. So it's great to have that song finally out there. I'm glad you can finally share that story. And I didn't realize you're a survivor of the residential school system.

Yeah, I had many aunts, uncles, cousins that went through the system as well. Alright, so again, a home of real talks. I don't know if I can ask anything I want. And I'm curious. Okay, so we talked earlier, you mentioned the Tragically Hip because they played them all the time on Rock 94 or whatever. That's right. Yeah, yeah. All right. So I'm a big fan of the Tragically Hip. Yes. Confess to that, big fan. And of course, one of the last projects

that Gord Downie worked on before his passing was The Secret Path. That's right. And I believe it did a tremendous job of raising awareness. And Gord never, he didn't do it but he did. Like he didn't claim any, he didn't claim any indigenous blood in his EEE, but he is a white man telling the story. And I always wondered, is that cool with you? You know, it is because the more I think chances we have at getting our story out there, and you know the more chances we have of reaching a more diverse audience, then I'm all for that. And again, that's one of the reasons why I wanted to do this project with the Sultans, because these sort of cross

collaborative projects, I think it's important to exposing people to not just new music, but also new ideas, and of course maybe issues and challenges like this they may not have learned, you know, growing up. No, they did a piss poor job of educating us on this front growing up. I mean, I literally like it takes, oh, there's a project here called The Secret Path and you learn the story of Cheney Wenchak and your eyes start to open up. That's right. It raises awareness.

So, it's amplifying this messaging as long as you don't falsely claim Indigenous ancestry. We're all good with this. Good. I'm glad to hear this actually, because I heard a couple of comments that criticizing the white man bringing this messaging to Canadians, but amplifying the message with a very famous person like Gord Downie is good. Absolutely. Absolutely. And we've actually done shows with the Downey Wenjack Foundation in the last couple of years. I do have a criticism against the organization because in recent years, they've been hiring pretendians to do some of these events.

OK. And you're not naming these pretendians that are hired? They're aware of it because they've been contacted. You're in the process. As there's a process happening right now. I'm a pretendee and I'm, uh, I'm shaking in my boots right now. You should be, cause we're coming after you. We're coming after you legally in civil court. Yeah.

Wow. I didn't realize that the, the, that foundation was, uh, this, oh goodness. Stay tuned. Like I, you know, we'll have a little chat when we take our photo by the, the Toronto tree. You got it. Dave Thomas, anointed at the Toronto tree. I will be asking you for some of these names here.

My goodness gracious. Now, yeah, so I did buy the artist who drew the Jenny Wenjack picture on the railway. I did pay $50 for a print, which I like very much. But OK. $50 for a print which I like very much, but okay Yeah now I Want to play another song and just because I've got you here in my basement mark and I'm digging these these songs here Well, thank you so much Earth and land and time and space Are all just pigments of matter and place In our mind we have no time until we fade away

Some will laugh and some will cry Some will live, some will live, and some will die But it's my will and my love that keeps me moving on Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, And you'll sing the song of light You'll sing the song of light And you'll sing the song that is right That is right This song from the mission which is available now is called Moon Drum. How would you like somebody to consume the mission?

Like do you have a preference in which way they buy this music? You know honestly I don't. Whatever is convenient to you, whatever you enjoy listening to. Yeah, I don't really have any preferences. People, some do, but most don't buy music anymore. They sort of borrow it, they rent it or borrow it. I don't know what the term would be, but you have Spotify or YouTube or something like that. But even just following us on social media or Spotify,

it really helps. Even if you don't buy the music, those numbers help because programmers, artistic directors, they look at the numbers and that's how they're gonna determine who they program for their festival or for their Radio station or that's a good point You know, that's one of the things that irks me about this new age is like, oh how many how many Instagram followers do you have? it's like like who the f cares like it's like but Where would we look up a nage one was that like How would we follow you on social, etc.? Well the best way, we have a Najowan music Facebook page.

That's probably the most active. Only because I'm lazy, I don't feel like joining as much as social media platforms. But if you go to the Maryland in Music Instagram, that has everything. It has the label, it has Najowan, it has all the other projects that we do. And that's updated quite regularly because I don't do it, it's my wife that does it. Well me, I... We gotta shout out your wife here. Big shout out to Laura, Laura Maryland, and she's the, you know, not just my life partner, but business partner, and she actually is one of the best music managers in the business. She manages a wonderful roster of artists herself, including Naudi Quantibins,

who is the Toronto Photo Laureate, North Sound, Lancelot Knight, Berg Jodwin. And there's someone I'm sure I'm forgetting, sorry. So she does a lot of great work and a big shout out to her. Otherwise, a lot of this stuff wouldn't even be possible. Okay, I'm gonna spell real quick some spelling time. This is the spelling portion of the Toronto Miked episode. Merlainen, I'm just going to do it. M-E-R-I-L-A-I-N-E-N. And there's a, please, what is the two dots on the A called?

Umlant. I knew that because Motley Crue has it. That's right. Yeah. So, yeah. But they're pretending to use it. That's right. My dad actually is Finnish and surprisingly I speak Finnish fluently. Do a little for me. I don't speak Finnish, I'm not from Finland. Shout out to Yari Curry who played with the great one and of course Tim Musulani.

Absolutely, yeah. And it's funny because I was in Finland a few years ago and I don't really look Finnish, so when I start talking they're surprised, like, how do you know our language and how do you speak it so well? And then I got to tell them, well, my dad was Finnish. Okay, give you, Nadiwan, I'll spell it, N-A-D-J-I-W-A-N. That's right, Nadiwan, that's the Anglo way of saying it, but if you were a Jibwe or Potawatomi, you would say Nadiwan. Nadiwan. That's right. Okay. There you go. Yeah.

I'm learning here now, uh, a few hot hits on the way out here. I've thoroughly enjoyed this. I'm going to start following you, uh, go to Facebook, follow you and, uh, root for you. And I can't wait to share this episode of the masses. I don't often go back to back, but these are such entirely different episodes like Mike Richards comes in pops pops open the can of beer and makes his big announcement Okay, and I won't spoil the announcement because Mike Richards makes it in the previous episode, which is 1595

This is 1596 we get to play some music talk of talk about your career as an artist and I'm curious about something. I had a woman on named Carolyn Taylor and she is a comedian and she was with a troupe called goodness gracious Baroness Von Sketch. I once called it Baron Von Sketch and that offended her of course because it's Baroness Von Sketch and it was on CBC. That's right I recall that show that's right they did a funny sketch on the land acknowledge rights. There you go okay so I played it for her because it resonates with me because I'm in all these events and I go to a lot of things like school things all these things

and we open these events with a land acknowledgement. Okay. Always. It would be Massey Hall wherever I am and in this comedy a bit from Baroness Von Sketch that Carolyn Taylor helped write, she makes the point like so okay so we stole the land, this land acknowledgement, we took this land from indigenous peoples. Maybe we should, we should give it back. Like we should leave. Should we leave? Like it's not our land. Maybe we should give it back if we took it from them. And it's like, oh no, no, we just do this land acknowledgement. And then I always wonder, there's a bit, sometimes I won't speak for all white, white people here from European descent, but it's like,

oh, we feel like we're doing something when we're doing the bare minimum. So we do the land acknowledgement and we feel like, okay, that makes it okay somehow. I'm curious for your thoughts on that. What do you think of these land acknowledgments that we're doing? Before a Blue Jay game, we do it. Sure. What are your thoughts on them? Well, I won't speak for all indigenous people, but a lot of us, we think it's dumb.

In fact, when I first heard it being done, like years ago, I thought it was a joke. Right. Again, cause it means nothing. It's the equivalent of reposting or liking a tweet or reposting on Facebook. And now you think you've solved world hunger cause you shared that meme that said something

about world hunger or whatever issue. Or if you say the thoughts and prayers thing like in America there'll be a big school shooting and thoughts and prayers and say okay that's like the bare minimum. It's actually probably worse because at least now you think you did something when you did nothing which is worse than doing nothing. Exactly and it's kind of like takes me back to those and nothing against charity concerts or fundraisers don't get me wrong but you go to one of these concerts oh we solved it we solved whatever the problem was but no you didn't you may have rose awareness about it but the key is action there's a lot of you know talk is cheap you know that whole expression course but it's all about action I'm more interested in seeing actions and behaviors changed personally so when you go to I don't know I you're not a big sports fan but

if you go to an event at Massey Hall, some concert, and then it opens with Atlanta acknowledgement, you're like, like, okay, like, is this all Canada is going to do? Like, do you feel Canada is doing enough to reconcile what are this, this, this ugly part of our history? Yeah, no, that Canada hasn't done anything. I mean, they put out recommendations, I think it was 94 recommendations, and how many have, has the Canadian government actually enacted on? I think not even like 10. Maybe the low-hanging fruit. That's right. Yeah, exactly. So it's up to the artists. It's up to us to, you know, implement a lot of these suggestions.

And again, that's the big sort of proponent behind the Walking Through the Fire Tour, because one of the suggestions was, have non-Indigenous and Indigenous artists collaborate to create works of art that we could take out to the public. And that's kind of what we've done with the project. And hopefully that inspires other artists to do collaborative projects of their own. OK, can you elaborate on that project?

Yeah, so it's a sultan's a string. A number of years ago, they put out the Refuge Project, which was them celebrating new Canadians, new immigrants to the country. So Duke Redbird, who is a wonderful elder, an educator in our community, he's in Anishinaabe, not too far from the community I'm from, actually. I believe he's from Saugine.

So he contacted Chris McCool and said, hey, when are you going to do the same for indigenous people what you did for immigrants? And you know, Chris took that as a call to action and that's kind of how the project got started and we're still doing it now. Okay and while I've got you here I feel like all these questions I've been

thinking about for a while here, Stu, and here. But one is of course we have a university in Toronto we now call Toronto Metropolitan University. Right. You might have heard of it. That's right, I think I've heard of it, yes. I just did okay so this is like sort of a kind of a self-promotion thing but at called Toronto Metropolitan University. Right. You might have heard of it. That's right. I think I've heard of it, yes.

Although I just did OK. So this is sort of a kind of a self-promotion thing. But at some point later this week, I will drop in the Toronto Mic feed this panel discussion I had at the Masonic Temple with Gary Topp and a panel that included people like Colin Brunton and Jeff Silverman and Ivor Hamilton and Gary Cormier. And I moderated this panel

it got recorded and this will be an episode but we talked quite a bit about the Gary's. The Gary's were famous concert promoters and one of the venues they're famous for booking concerts on and I think about this every time it's the anniversary of the killing of John Lennon is because the the night that John Lennon was murdered is the night that the aforementioned Rob Pruse made his debut with the Spoons at a venue that was known as the Edge. So it was named after Edgerton Ryerson they called it the Edge and that night the Spoons

introduced their new keyboard as the 15 year old named Rob Pruse and that was the night John Lennon was killed here. That's a long-winded way of bringing up this name, Edgerton Ryerson. And now that name is not associated in any way with the, you have to say like with that university, they're called Toronto Metropolitan University. Is that some, is that something more significant that you're actually going to now delete some homage to some architects of the residential school system that your mother was forced into? Yeah, I'm not sure how that helps, to be honest with you, other than it looks like we're kind

of brushing something under the rug. I think it's important to talk about these things so that we never repeat them again in the future. So perhaps it's better to keep the name, but make sure that it's a conversation starter. You add the context of what this person that we're named after did. Like instead of just renaming it TMU, maybe if you're still called Ryerson, now that will trigger this conversation about what that gentleman did. Yeah, it's very possible.

Again, we're living in a weird sort of polarized time, where there's a lot of people who are trying to control each other's thoughts and what we say in order for some greater good. When really at the end of the day, the only way we're going to get through this is having an honest exchange of ideas and thoughts across the table. Okay, well said, my friend. Listen, Okay, well said, my friend. Listen, this was a great hour and I hope this is not the last time that we chat because at some point, maybe in 2025 as news happens or new music is released and new events happen, since it's not a far trek for you, we get you back in the basement. Oh, absolutely. I'd love to. Thank you so much. But good luck with the, again, people can pick up the mission anywhere,

but we can go, what's the website or is it just go to Facebook? You know, you go to heading north music.com and you can actually buy directly from us. So if you want to bypass Apple music and Spotify, that's where I was going with that. Do you have a preferred, because I'm, I would think if I'm an artist, it's like, yeah, I want you to consume my art. But if I, if I were king for a day, I would have you go buy it directly from me. So there's more money ends up in the artist's pocket and you can feed yourself. That's right. And you'll find some interesting things on that website. We also have vinyl for sale as well. So there you go.

All right. Continued success. And I hope you win some Junos because you have a trophy case that needs filling. Oh, thank you. Better late than never is what I say. That's true. And that brings us to the end of our 1596th show. For me, go to torontomike.com. Follow me on bluesky, torontomike.com, I post there on the reg.

But much love to all who made this possible. That's Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, that's recyclemyelectronics.ca, that's Minaris, and that's Ridley Funeral Home. A big thank you to, I think he's got like four or five shout outs this episode. Maybe this was the Rob Pruce episode, but Rob Pruess, thank you again for the time and the effort to put together this new closing theme so I can play it without getting these takedown notices from whatever conglomerate owns the Rosie and Grey song from Shakespeare My Butt that I was using.

I see on the live stream, great chat. Thank you to J-Ho for sticking was using. I see on the live stream, great chat. Thank you to J-Ho for sticking it out and everyone else on the live stream. And I will just shout out the next guest. This episode will drop tomorrow. He's an editor at the Toronto Star, Doug Broad, but he's actually going to talk about a new book. We'll talk about everything. But he wrote a new book about the founder of the Church of Satan So the the founder you might visualize him in his head shaved head He's got it's kind of scary imposing presence no longer with us shout out to really funeral home but the founder of the Church of Satan This great book that Doug wrote he's gonna come over and talk about it. That'll drop tomorrow. See you all

then talk about it. That'll drop tomorrow. See you all then. I'm going to be a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a So I'm going to be a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a

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