Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Mark Hebscher: Toronto Mike'd Podcast Episode 1801

Episode Date: November 18, 2025

In this 1801st episode of Toronto Mike'd, Mike chats with Mark Hebscher about the rise and ruin of sports media. Toronto Mike'd is proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, Ridley Funeral Home, Nick Ainis, Blue Sky Agency, Kindling, RetroFestive.ca and RecycleMyElectronics.ca. If you would like to support the show, we do have partner opportunities available. Please email Toronto Mike at [e-mail].

Hey, this is Mark Hebscher. You can call me Hebsy. I'm so thrilled to be in the basement with Toronto, Mike. It's been so long. We used to scrap a lot, but it's been so long. So let's get into it right now. That's what I'm talking about. That's exactly what I'm talking about.

No, you know what? I'm calling an audible here. No way, no way. Here's what we're going to do here. This is how we're going to roll. Welcome to episode 1,801, that's 1801 of Toronto-Miked, proudly brought to you by Retrofestive.ca, Canada's pop culture and Christmas store.

Great Lakes Brewery, order online for free local home delivery in the GTA. Palma Pasta, enjoy the taste of fresh, homemade Italian pasta and entrees from Palma Pasta in Mississauga and Oakville. Blue Sky Agency, ask Doug Mills about how Silen delivers the space to focus, collaborate, and recharge. Nick Aini's, he's the host of Building Toronto Skyline and Building Success. Two podcasts you ought to listen to. Kindling! Hebsey, have you heard about this? Go to shopkindling.ca for free one-hour cannabis delivery.

Recycle My Electronics.ca. Committing to our planet's future means properly recycling our electronics of the past. And of course, Ridley Funeral Home. Pillars of the community since 1921. Today, returning to Toronto Mike, it's the author of Madness, The Rise and Ruin of Sports Media. It's my buddy Mark Hebscher. How are you doing, Hebsie Man?

I can't hear you through my headphones, Mike, but I'm doing fine, buddy. Is that right? You can't hear me? No. I mean you're not, okay. Can't hear myself either. Give me a second. Do you see the end of that thing? You're so excited.

You know why? I recorded live from Casaloma yesterday. Yes, you did. got torn down for episode 1800 at Casilloma. That's okay. And I didn't plug your headphones back in. Where is this guy here? All right, where are you? Oh, you know what? You got a short there. Yeah, I just heard it.

Oh, there it is. Are you in? I'm in. Okay. I'm probably... I don't need the headphones, you know. You know what? I'm a pro. I don't need headphones. You won't hear Do the Murray by Los Lobos. Remind the listenership, why am I playing Do the Murray by Los Lobos? Mike, I swear to you, I just finished writing a book. In all that time, I'd completely forgotten about that song. how we acquired it, right? Right, yeah.

Because that's like, that's like, hang on, wait, I got to, I got a, it's hot in here. I know it. It's hot, usually people complain. Mike Stafford was here last week complaining he was cold, like it was a walk and fridge. So I'm glad you're hot down here. So that was, I mean, that's the music from Sportsline 2.0 and Hebsie on Sports. That's the opening theme and closing theme. Yeah, for Hebsie on sports, which we recorded together for,

for five years. Yeah. And I wanted to resurrect it for this, for your return. I know you were here like an early 2024, but you used to be here every week. Yeah. You came by here in the studio?

In the studio. So that's the last time I was here? Yeah. So you've been here since, you know, Hebsy on Sports passed away. Shout out to Ridley, but I got to say, man, you told me you were going to write a book

about the, you know, sports media in this country and beyond. And you did it, Hebsy. Well, you inspired it too, because when, when we were on, I forget how we did what 300 pod something whatever than that yeah yeah more I don't know I don't I don't remember I think I think what happened was we lost we tried to remember we tried to uh identify them by number and we got it all screwed up somewhere well I can tell you because you had numbers

no because you were at the time you were like you were at 1300 or whatever but you numbered remember you shared a word sorry you shared a Google dog with me every episode and you numbered the Google Doc so I think it was like 332 I think okay what you know I believe you anyway so you yeah so you Yeah, it's been quite a while. And we used to go at it, you know, the sports stories of the day, the issues. And all that stuff that we were talking about, I thought, you know, this would be great in a book. And I think when sports gambling, when the sports gambling started, we really started getting into issues, you know, beyond sports, social issues with regards to gambling, especially. And, you know, is that game fixed?

And the Tim Donaghy story, remember the NBA referee? Of course. And so all of a sudden, not all of a sudden. but it was sort of like, wait a minute, this is getting kind of pervasive. Like, there were a lot of commercials on TV, a lot, bet, bet, bet, bet. And I think that was sort of the beginning of the decline, and that's where the ruin, to me, part came in.

The rise was there. I don't know when it plateaued, but the ruin began when sports got into bed with gambling companies. And now people were compromised, and people that you watched on television or listened to on the radio or you're going, is that kind of being paned off by the gambling company to say these things? No, without a doubt, but I'm going to ask you a quick question because I've read your book.

So firstly, congrats on writing. You were one of the first, you know. Okay. Like you read it before it was out. Well, I did notice one mistake. Oh, only one? Well, you talked about the music you would play on SportsLang because you had these 12-inch singles and you had some cool stuff, new order and stuff. What did I forget?

No, you added a band that you definitely did not play on Sportsnet when it was on Global because you threw in the mix there audio slave. Of course we did. but audio slave doesn't exist until because it's post sound when sound garden broke up audio slave does not exist when you're when you're on the global sports line what year did audio slave begin i'll google it quickly but this was like a like you know so because sound garden has their run i know now i know exactly it because we used audio slave for bumpers on the new sports line right yes yes and i got the two mixed up right so i'm here to tell you that but and you know what you're 100% right because now as i'm writing it i'm thinking you know some because you're you you're thinking, you go, okay, if I got these dates right, because if I don't, I know there's at least one person out there that's going to challenge it. Because I'm the same person. If I read something, anything that's factually incorrect, I'm like, wait a minute, I think I've got to get in touch with Toronto.

And you and I've gone back and forth on things, right? Like, you've published stuff and I've gone, but always privately. It's like, Mike, you might want to change that. All right. I just did that very publicly right now. Yeah. No, no, no. It's okay.

By the way, what page was that on me when I get that fixed? But that's, like, this whole book, that's the only thing I said, oh, Hebsy slipped up there because he means the later. He means the Bubba O'Neill sports line, not the Jim Taddy sports line. That's right. And I mean, okay, so a lot of ground. And again, so I've congratulated you on the book because I could blow smoke up your ass right now, Hebsy, because you're a good friend. You're a true buddy.

I could tell you that, oh, you wrote a good book, even though I'm like, I don't want to recommend this to my buds. It's not very good. Straight up, it's a two for one, right? It's a great history of sports media, like the rise and fall. And you do a great job kind of. Rise and ruin. Rise and ruin. Believe me, rise and fall, it came in a million.

I'm like, ah, it's a rise and fall of everything. Every book's been written is a rise and fall of something. Sorry. Rise and ruin. But it's also a tremendous, and I had all these parts, but they're all scattered. You put them in this great coherent, linear, like, organized thought process. But this is also a tremendous Mark Hebscher by autobiography. It's not, though.

But it is. No, there's room for the autobiography, right? Someone says, this is going to write another book? I'm like, ah, did I save enough for an autobiography? Is there stuff about my childhood and stuff like that? There's little parts of it, right, that are in there. But it's not an autobiography. It's more a history of sports media with my experiences later in life.

Okay, but let me ask you about your Zeta. Damn, I screwed it up, didn't I? Your Zeta. Yeah. Your Zeta was a bookie. Yeah. And first, for the Gentiles, the ones who are less ignorant. Grandfather.

Yeah, I know. I know this. You know this. I'm a friend of the Jewish people. But you know, I mean, how many ways can you say grandfather in the world? Abba. My, I have two kids who have a, they have a Lolo. Oh, Lolo.

Lolo is a Filipino grandfather. No kidding. Yeah, so they got a Lola and a Lolo in Edmonton. Hello, hello, lo, lo, alo. Abueli. You know what? It's going to be tough to talk to you because I want to talk to you with so many things all at once. It's not going to be tough.

Go ahead. I'm not going to answer your questions. I want to hear about Zeta, your Zeta being a bookie because you talked about sports gambling. but can you quickly tell the story of how you got the rights to do the Murray from Los Lobos for Hebsie on sports, which we did for five years, Hebsie. Oh, yeah. So the guys in Los Lobos, well, one of the guys, Steve Berlin, tremendous producer also produced a couple of Tragically Hip albums and, you know, crash test.

I mean, go on and on. But anyway, Steve and I are friends, and have been for many years introduced by Jake Gold, the manager of the hip. And Steve is, you know, a member of Los Lobos. He's not a charter member because the guys were around like for a few years before him but he's the only non-Chicano

he's not Mexican-American member of the band and I had asked him I sort of like you know I love that and I'm looking for an instrumental piece would I be able to use this and he was like yeah I'll talk to the guys

it was real simple right you didn't have to worry about the publishing company all that he basically sort of said sure we'd love to because they don't play this in their concerts and it was sort of a one-off kind of a thing I don't do the Murray and then I thought it was fantastic

and you agreed, and we used it. It is great. Quite a long time. So I just basically asked, and he said, sure, go ahead. And no one has, no one has even questioned me. No one, hey, did you pay for that? Are you, you know, are you using that for free?

Because, especially nowadays, when people are getting 0.000, 0.001 cent for every Spotify play. So that, yeah. But nowadays, it's not even nobody question me. Now it's the algorithm bot that detects that you use this song owned by this record label that sends you some kind of a takedown order. like it's no longer a human right it's uh like a like an algorithm i know i have trouble understanding that that's hard for me and what are the algorithms like to listen to like what do they

do they prefer something and you know there's a whole thing about AI generated stuff remember this the book it all had to be in by like many many months ago it was all gone to the you know publisher and all that it's finished you couldn't add anything more to it right and in the interim period i was worried that stuff was going to happen that was going to make what i wrote completely obsolete right like oh no what's what's everything you're talking about that's like so i really it was really hard for me to try to stay as current as possible and thinking when the book came out in november what would the sports world be like right i think i hit it dead on mike i think i hit it dead on because i'm you know and it started with my grandfather

look yeah people love to people love to gamble i just got back from las vegas people love to gamble and i like to see people gamble and they're enjoying themselves of course you can only do that when you're winning but even people that are winning don't seem to be enjoying themselves they're thinking of the next They're worried about the guy missing a field goal. Man, you should see, I, I'm an observer of human condition when it comes to, I watched everybody watching a football game in Vegas. I'm just scanning the crowd. Right.

And I'm telling you, no one looked like they were really having a good time. It was anxiety. It was like following the Js in the World Series. No one seemed to be enjoying it. He was like, I'm so worried. Well, we're going to get to that. We got a lot of ground color, but your Zeta was a bookie. He was.

But he didn't tell me this for years. then when he took i was in my 50s at the time he was like in his you know i was in my 40s he was in his 80s yeah and um yeah he basically said you know i you know i used to make book all the time listen you know when you grew up in uh when you were from toronto or this you couldn't and you were jewish you couldn't get a a job in the bank or working for the you know the the government or a cop or anything you couldn't get any of those jobs he didn't hire jews and if they did it was you know maybe one uh you know a token um and getting it to you of t you of you I went, oh, this is a history of Toronto.

I want to get into that part. But so you had to kind of hustle and you had to do your own thing. So he owned a store or he rented out of space on Danforth Avenue and Dawes Road. And he owned a store, you know, a variety, a corner store, what they called it. And so people would go in every day before work, after work, whatever, cigarettes, milk, the news, the daily newspaper or newspapers. And while you're there, maybe to lay a bet. And you couldn't bet legally except you when you went to the racetrack or I think bingo.

That was pretty much it. Right. Right. That's it. There was no other. You couldn't, even if you were playing in a poker game in someone's house and you were throwing money around, the cops could have busted in on you. So bookmaking was a big thing.

People wanted to bet. They needed someone to bet with. Here's your local bookie, the corner store. That was my grandfather. He didn't tell us that. But I remember when I was a kid, he would show us he would have a wad of bills. Mike, like to choke a horse, a big, thick wad of bills. You know, you're eight years old, you're going, what are you making a book?

Are you making books, Zeta? No, you don't ask you? You go, where'd you get a lot of money? And my parents are like, oh, that's the receipts from the store, you know. It's all cash business and all. And I'm thinking, you know, and you'd have to sell a lot to get that kind of money. So I realized later when he told me that all those dollar bills and what a deuce, two dollar bills I saw, those were bets. Yeah, bets.

This guy, you know, Vito comes in every, you know, every morning or whatever. It's always Vito. When I see him on Monday or I see him on Tuesday, you know, we settle up. So, and then he just told me stories of just the way things were when he was younger. and it's no different than today. People love to bet. They want to find action. That's just the way they are.

It doesn't matter if it's penny poker or whatever, or you're playing with your friend, or it's for a three-foot putt, or it's every single pitch of every single baseball game, people have got to have action. And you've got to go somewhere to make a bet. And in those days, there was no pro line. There was no betting apps.

You went to the corner store. You went to the bookmaker. Are you betting on sports these days, Hebsie? No, not at all. I was just in Vegas, I did not make a bet, which is people might think, how could you not even like a spin of the wheel or, no, it doesn't appeal to me at all because of what I've witnessed, because of what's gone on in my family and others that I know, and because of just some really wonderful people that I've known that because of gambling

ruined their lives and the lives of their families and friends. I've seen it too. That's a highly addictive practice. It is like somebody trying to, you know, get off the sick. right it's uh no it's worse than that because it's all around without the sigs it's there's no smoking signs everywhere to deter you right

there is no there's nothing that says there's no gambling and let's face it the leagues and the teams and the players and the media are all in some way shape or form involved they're partners with these gambling companies they're all here's another

$100 in your account go make a bet and Mike you can bet on anything I mean I've scanned I scanned the boards in Las Vegas, and my head was about to explode. I'm watching a college game, and there's hundreds of people, sorry, this is Caesar's Palace. Hundreds of people watching

clutching their ticket and they're, like, just nuts. And while they're watching this game that they've got to bet on, they're making bets with themselves. They're buddy on, like, it's going to be a pass, it's going to be a run. Bet you're five. Like, it's nuts, man. Yeah, you cannot lose if you do not play.

You can write that down. You can put that in the next book. I did steal it from that. It's going to be the title of Actually, I cannot lose if you don't. I bet you can make a bet in 2026. Does a ball get wedged between the fence and the ground at the dome? Someone will take your action. There's someone out there would say, would present odds. Remember, it's all about the odds.

If it's worth it to the bookmaker, right. And they set the odds. If it's worth it to them, they'll, they're the ones that calculate that. The better doesn't do that. You don't sit there and go, wait a minute, you're only going to pay me this much? Oh, no, no, no. go somewhere else and get a better odds you know so when you you know these like i'll give an example a friend of mine's son hit a hit a four team parley he bet four teams a four different bets whatever they

were right whatever they were and and it came in it was a ten dollar bet now something like that should be paying you should be getting seriously at least a hundred bucks you got to be getting 10 to one you get four not one four of you'd think so so i don't know but um they gave him like like $37. I said, wait a minute. You bet $10 you got like $37 back? That was it for getting four-teamer. You got ripped off.

So even when they lose the bets, even when the house loses, they win because the amount they're taking from you is absurd. And there's no negotiating. But anyway, that's a whole other thing. Well, I'll get back to this because I got a couple of nice notes when I say, it's the return of Hebsy. And one man, you know,

John Wing, he writes me and says, I challenge Hebsy to a golf match. Winger, look, I was just in Nevada for four days. Why didn't you come over and see me? Funny man. I'm a big John Wings in California. He's in California. But he, last time I talked to him, he was considering coming back to Canada.

Yeah. Because he's not doing those cruise lines anymore because I think he's got a vision issue. Yeah. The other thing is too, it's just things have really, really tightened up in that business, in the entertainment business. You know, we had so many choices in Las Vegas, like tons. And, you know, people were saying to me, I can get great tickets for this. and it's half full, and it used to be super busy, and it's not super busy now.

But is that because a bunch of Canadians are staying home? No, there's more to it than that. Number one, for sure, there is Canadians, but I just think it's down all over. It's ridiculously expensive, Mike. When did that happen? Ridiculously expensive. Never mind the exchange.

Forget the $1.45 it cost me for every American dollar. But, yeah, like $8 for a bottle of water. You got some nerve. You got some nerve, Las Vegas. It's true. It's all over the place. And the price surging in cab with the cabs and, oh my God. So it's pouring rain on Saturday there. It's raining all day, right?

Vegas is not the kind of a place. You want to be walking around, you know. You want to be inside in the casinos where there's no windows, there's no clocks. You don't care what time of day is. But if you're a tourist and you're walking around, it was horrible. So anyway, all of a sudden, the cab that was going to cost us $15 is now $160. Really? That's real numbers.

$160 because so many people are waiting, trying to, to get a cap because even if you want even if you want to go from let's say from caesar's palace to the bellagio which is next door it's a 15 minute walk you are not going to walk in the pouring rain wearing your air maze and your 160 a walk or whatever right right you're not going to so it's like the cabs know this they know this is like oh you really you want to go six blocks it's going to cost you whatever did you watch the great cup because i saw i read your piece in substack and you close it with somebody recognized you and they thought you would have been at the great cup in winnipeg yeah but Did you...

Because I had an offer to go to the Grey Cup. That was one of the two offers I had from my vacation. And you went to Vegas? It was like, do you want to go... It's not very Canadian of you, Hebsy. No, no, no. Anyway, that's in the substack article. That's completely different.

But did you watch it? You didn't tell me you were going to talk about the article that I read your stuff. But yeah, no, the guy kind of looked at me. He figured, you know, your sports guy. I used to do all the CFS and how come you're not in Winnipeg at the Grey Cup? That was sort of the last line of it. And it was like, I went to Vegas instead. I didn't in fact you know what when I got by the time I got home I think there was 11 seconds left in the game and I had flipped on the very ending and I hear it wasn't a great game and there wasn't any buzz about it where I was no well I don't think yeah maybe not in Vegas but no certainly not in Mike of all the football there was not once did I see some great cup odds no I do enjoy the fact that at least the game was undecided until the very end like Montreal had a chance oh don't spoil it for me I haven't it's on your PBR okay you're Tivo I'm sorry

I'm sorry, the Canadian Football League. The only thing I wrote about it in the book was when I was doing Argo play by play. And the Great Cup parade with Jim Hunt. Of course. Which preceded the parade that you and I. Well, that's my calling it an autobiography. Maybe not your childhood, this, that, although you did tell you what you said. No, there are some autobiographical elements to the book, but essentially it's not an autobiography.

Because autobiography is a memoir, isn't it? Would that be the same thing? But your sports media career, every stop you made, and I got some questions about a few of them, but every stop you make is covered in great detail in chronological order. Like, what more would you ask for? Oh, no, it's not, no, it's not in chrono. No, there's references. It's not a chronological.

But because these are stories I heard, you know, you open with Wayne Swetsky, which I'm going to get to in a moment here. But I got to get to this question from Varage Davay. Varage Davay wants to know. He was a big fan of Hebsie on sports. He says, is he going to restart Hebsy on sports with Toronto Mike? That's a question for you to answer, Hebsie. Look, you know me.

I'm willing to, you know, I'm willing to talk sports with anyone. I mean, you know, I button hold this guy on the plane for four and a half hours, okay? And I started to tell him about it. Actually, here's another thing. I sold two books when I was on the plane. The couple that was sitting next to me was, you know, what do you do? You know, I was a sportscaster. I'm an author.

You're an author, right? Oh, really? Because, and now that I've written two books, I can say it with confidence. Before I was like, I wrote a book. Right. You have two. Anyway, you know,

by the time the flight was over, they were like, how do we get this book? And I just sent them the Amazon link. And I thought, ah, what an idiot. Carry more books with you.

And you'll sign them right there. What a dumb, right? Because every book that I sell, that I buy myself, I make $15 a book, like $15 a book. But if it's sold through Amazon

or, you know, Barnes & Noble or Indigo or whatever, it's like $4. It's a big difference. And how do you feel about those cheapskates who get it from the library? Like, no, you're an independent, this is, this, you buy a book from Hebbsey.

Yeah, but you know what, though? I do get a check every year from the books that are sold to the library. I mean, it's not substantial, but I mean, every library, I think, you know, it's like they don't have to, but I think it's like, well, you know, he's a Canadian author and you could put it in. No, you're definitely, I've heard from people who have got it from there. But I want to use this opportunity just to tell the listenership that you, Mark Hebscher, will be at TMLX21 on November 29th. That's the last Saturday of November.

Right. And noon to 3 p.m. is TMLX21. Everyone's invited. You'll be there and you will bring books to this event, right? Yeah, I'm going to bring lots of books. And we're going to like, like with the books is great because I'll sign it for you. But like, you know, and, you know, if we've met before, we spend a time together, I can come up usually with something pretty good to sign a book.

It's not like, you know, best wishes, hope you like the book. Like, you know, sometimes I like to personalize it. If you're Jerry Howarth, God bless you. Yes. That's in my book. Yeah, it's nice. And then it, the obligatory, you know, can we take a picture? You know, I've never heard, like, I've never gone, no, no picture.

No, I'll sign this for it, but no picture. Right. Right. Sometimes you'll get those idiots who are like, you know, please and just, you know, and I'll sing, you know, only, and they never look up from signs. They just sign and they just, like, people, not me, man. Like, it's like, for sure, because you want to have, there is no tickets. right there's no physical ticket for this so you've got to have proof that you were there so here's

the book that's signed here's the picture yeah that we took right and now and now that's your experience there and then when someone asks you you go oh let me show you something here's the picture oh let me show you the book look at the inscription so hebsy heads get you know go come for live recording because hebsy's going to be on the mic as well but come meet hebsy get him to sign a book for you he'll take a selfie with you and that'll be totally right and i told you just before we press chord. At TMLX21, I'm expecting the legend that is Mike Richards. Yeah. And you're doing his show tomorrow?

Yeah. Yeah. I'm looking forward to it. And fuck, the funny thing is, I lobbied him. Because like, like, when you, when your book comes out, you know, depending on who your publisher is, and mine is ECW press, and they're wonderful people. But I'm like, okay, if we got big book launches, are we going, you know, road tripping, are we doing, you know, readings and stuff like that and chapters into go, you know,

and they're like, uh, no. no no you know we've got you know you've got some help here but you're pretty much on your own and i'm like oh okay so you know i go to the publisher and i say well i want to buy my book and in our case you know i can buy my own book for 50% off the cover price you know if i buy a certain number of books and so i'm like okay it's called i guess it's called selling it out of the trunk of your car for lack of a better term right it's like you go and so it's like i took a couple books to like my barber, right? Sam, who loves me, and he says, I got two or three clients that are fans of yours. I said, great, here's a copy of the book, put it on display, and then you tell them,

I'll sign it for them, and then next time. So I've kind of got that kind of community thing going, and I always have them in grassroots. I'm on the plane. I'm selling them to the people sitting next to me on the plane, okay? I'm waiting for a cab, the guy across from me. I'm saying to me here. Here's the link, Bing, go and order it. Now, they're $4.80 in my pocket. As soon as that guy buys it, boom. So, U.S., in that case, I think. So, yeah, it's fun. But the thing is, what I miss the most is I like talking sports.

You know that, Mike. So whenever there's an issue or what about the Leafs, are they going to fire Barouba? I can't help but not get sucked into that. Well, some questions on that, in that regard are on your way. But I am naturally, as you know, I like to know how the sausage is made, how the cake is baked. Like, if you've got a book, you've got to promote, this is 20, 25.

Here we are November 18. Obviously, you're on the, you're on Toronto mic right now. Fun fact. But you would have said, I mean, even if I didn't have a book, we would have had something to talk about today. I like at least a yearly Hebsy check-in. Oh, I hope so. You're not here for the book.

You happen to have the book, and I'm going to ask you about the books. I like the book. I think it's a very good book. And I think my audience would love this book by Mark Hebscher. But I think so. The book is written for our audiences. Yeah, yeah. You know, the people who are interested in the deeper dives into the mechanics of it all.

you know, the Brian Gerstein's of the world who tells me he will be at TMLX-21 to buy a copy. Can I ask you a question? Anything. Because you've got your finger on the pulse of it. Well, your listeners are not just from the GTA, G-THA. Do you think I was too specific geographically

when I was explaining the media sources that I, you know, were influenced me? Like when you talk about CJCL or... No, even more than that, the Buffalo stuff. Like people that didn't grow up in this area, would they be going, what's this guy talking about? I'm not from Toronto. Why do I give a crap about what he's writing here?

I think a lot of people, because if I read a book from somebody and it's like Ottawa, and it's like, I don't speak this language. I'm actually very interested to hear them talk about Ottawa. Like I learned something. I kind of like, it's like going on vacation, right? You immerse yourself in a different culture. I did read your book as a Toronto guy born and raised and I knew most of the references and I like the inside of it all, but I think I would have liked it just as much if you were like a Vancouver guy.

I think I would have enjoyed immersing myself in this different culture. Because my worry is this, Mike, is that a lot of people hate Toronto and anyone associated with Toronto. And if you grew up in Toronto, F you, right? I don't care if it's people from the West Coast or whatever, but you know what I mean. Toronto haters. They may just hate the Leafs. And then so if you happen to be from Toronto, then you hate you too. And so my worry was this is that someone was going to go, F this guy.

He's a Toronto guy. I'm not interested. And would dismiss the book out of hand without even, you know. Well, that same person is definitely not listening to a show called Toronto, Mike. I've never thought through that. You hate Toronto. I don't think you're listening. Maybe you're hate listening.

Oh, yeah. Thank you to Dale Kadoe who... Thanks, Dale. Because Dale, who loves you, you know that. Good man. Lovese. Listen to all the Hebsy on sports. He's moved back here, has he?

Is he back here? I don't think so. I think you're confusing him with Gene Velitis. No, I'm... Oh, no. Certainly not. Well, Dale Kadoe reached out to Mike Richards to ensure Mike Richards was going to be at TMLEX-21.

I'm excited that you'll be on Mike Richards. show. I did a fun little, I called it a Mikeumentary, but basically, because I think you might know this, but Mike Richards has come on Toronto Mike several times to make a big announcement. So I had fun with the fact that every time he'd come over, it was a major big announcement, and most of the times it didn't happen. And as you know, much like you, like I root so hard for this guy because I just like this guy, Mike Richards. And I'm glad that you're on a show tomorrow. But here's my question for you, Hebsey. This is where I want you to dive into. how do you promote a book like this in 2025 and I need specifics because the bell properties

which are many and the rogers properties they're not going to touch a book like this because you basically say that sports media has been ruined that's correct uh i do not expect to um and because i have friends in the industry and they've told me and it's very discreet too and mike you can understand this and so can the listeners and i can't mention the names of these people, but take a guess, all right, at Sportsnet. Does Hebsy know anybody there, you know, and so they've told me, you know, quietly, I'm a great book, I can't, you know. Can't touch it.

You know that I can't. And I understand completely the position that they're in because in the book I talk about my friends without naming names and some names, a lot of names are mentioned, that they're worried about their jobs. They see what's going on in the industry and they don't want to rock the boat. They got a family to raise. They've got, you know, all that stuff. so I totally dig it and I would never put them on the spot but you've got to admit when you watch today's sportscasters there's a lot more you know brought you by and don't forget and you know you're sponsor driven and you know back of the day that was kind of cringe worthy of how can you be an objective observer how can you be an unbiased uh you know um reporter right when you're being pulled towards gambling

You'd be holding into all these conglomerates. In other words, the story isn't, we don't care about the background of Toronto, Mike. We want to know what his betting habits are. Right. Right. We want to find a way to change the narrative and spin it so that it's about the bet. Right? It's got to be about bet.

It's all got to be eventually getting these people to bet on the game, not getting these people to read a 2,000-word profile of the backup quarterback whose father had Alzheimer's and whatever. Right. those stories are very difficult to pass by an editor now because the editor's like, I don't know, where's the betting stuff?

Where's the, you know, remember our partner is a gambling company. And you've got to go, oh, yeah, that's right. Yeah,

that's right. Well, and the other problem, again, I mentioned, I called out Bell and Rogers because they own national sports networks in this country,

as you know. But Rogers, if I can focus on them for a moment, they own practically everything, right? Like every sports team, a Torontoian loves, well,

most of them, I mean, that's a problem. Like, Rogers owns everything. You bet there's a problem, of course. You bet. See, you bet. There's your ruin, Mike. There is your ruin.

I mean, how many, I can name on one hand, the number of people that are willing to, and because they have no affiliation with the sports teams or the conglomerates that own them, that are willing to go out in a limb. And most of them are from post media, Toronto Sun, National Post guys. You know what I'm talking about, Simmons, guys like that.

Yep. who can, without fear of reprisal, right, can say these things, can go on about the, can ask these questions in a press conference setting. The press conference setting now is this. First of all, you never, ever used to listen to an entire press conference. You would get the juicy bits, not the stuff in,

yeah, over there, second row, none of that stuff, right? It's unprofessional sounding. And the other thing is, is that when you're asking a question in a press conference, you're not doing it for broadcast. You're not going, oh, I'm going to be on the air with this question. So a lot of times the question in a press conference is sometimes disjointed something, but trying to get a particular type of an answer that if you were sitting next to the person one-on-one,

this wouldn't be required. But since it's a, you know, hands up, please, if you want to ask a question, it's supposed to be formal. You were never, as a viewer and listener, you were never supposed to hear the whole press conference. But now it's cheap programming. Just plug it in, flip it on. And after a while you're going, okay, like another stupid question and a, right? It's just boring, but it fills time on the sports networks because besides the live game,

what else are you watching it for? What are you watching sports net for? You're watching it for plays of the week, misplays of the week, bloopers of the month, blah, blah, but curling, another replay of the same show that aired the night before. So they have to fill, they have to have programming in there. And the last thing they want is somebody going, you know, writing about this, how, you know, it's not really the way business should be done

in the sports world. So where can, being specific, you've got a few things on the go, promotional-wise, you got this, you got Mike Richards, I know you're doing more than that, but like where can you turn? Like, is there an athletic podcast

that will talk to you? Willner talk to you for a Toronto Star podcast? Like, if you cut out Rogers and Bell, what's left? for Hebsy Man to talk sports and promote his book. Right. So it's word of mouth. It's going to events like, you know, TMLX21.

Woo! Which I have to get back to. XXI, right? XXI. Okay. See, I haven't been, I haven't been since TML I, X, I think. You were at Great Lakes Brewery last time you came. So what number was that?

Eight? Maybe? I thought it was. Oh, 10, maybe. It was X, X. It was X, wasn't it? Right. It was 10.

So that's 12. Oh, yeah, you were there with your girlfriend, Serena. Yeah, she's coming for. this one, too. So, okay, here's what you got to tell us to me. She's coming for the palm of pasta. She's really not coming for the, it's for the palm of pasta. Okay, so on that note, on the note, here, I don't have a sports betting, uh,

sponsor, so I won't be going on. Not yet, you don't. Well, it's been, it's been, it's been 13 years. Hebsy, this is 1801. I don't know if they're not knocking on my door, but I do. My favorite tequila. You know what? That's, I googled.

My favorite tequila. And yeah, the, the, the, oh boy, is that good. Is it good? Okay, I don't have tequila for you, but I do a fresh craft beer from Great Lakes brewery. And I want you to tell Serena, and you can, you know, if Serena wants to bring her sons or whatever she wants to do, you can bring your sons,

everybody's invited. I want to make sure I'm clear that Palma pasta is not just hosting us for this free event, but Palma pasta is feeding everybody who comes out. You will get fresh Italian food. I so miss it, Mike. It's been so long, okay? Where I live

there are no, I mean, there's nothing like Palmapost, but where I live, it's so far away. Well, I'm bringing you, I'm giving you a lasagna to bring back to wherever the heck you're from. I don't know if it's parts unknown like when that wrestler would be from. No, no, it's not. No, it's for, it's Markham. I'm in Markham now.

Okay. I never do for Markham or Stoville. No, Gateway to Stoville. See, I'm in the north. I'm in the, I'm very close to Durham region, actually. Whoa. Sort of on the edge of York Durham. Okay.

Um, so yeah, five minutes from Stove. And are you happy out there? You're happy? Yeah. I wish the selection of restaurants was better. Well, you can get the, uh, Palma pasta delivered. So, okay. The lasagna, so TMLX21, the three key points I want to make sure you know,

in addition to the fact you'll be on the mic and selling your books and everything. No, no, no, don't say that. You see, we're going to be talking sports, right? And it so happens I'll be there. But to specific, it's not specifically to sell the book. No, I mean, of course not. You're here. By the way, beloved FOTM.

Admission is free, but you'd better buy a book from Hebsey. Buy a book from Hebsey. You get your free meal from Palma Pasta, your free beer from Great Lakes Brewery, and this is what I wanted to tell you because it's new. RetroFestive.C.A are going to give a gift to the first 75 people who come out. So you'll get... What's retrofestive? I'm so glad, basically.

So Retro Ontario, I know that you've had. That's awesome stuff. He's got a new book, too. I know it's about kids' shows. It's very good. And you know what's going to bring back memories, too? Not from when I was a kid, but when I was raising my kids. 100%.

All those shows in the 90s. 100%. Stick them in front of the TV and they... Look at that, Dad. So Retrofestive.C.A is Canada's pop. culture and Christmas store and they have an Oakville store that's open every day until Christmas. You can save 10%

when you shop online using the promo code FOTM and I'm just going to randomly read like a Google review here. Okay. Looking for tear-inducing, laugh until you can't breathe, comedic products that are wacky and goofy, you've come to the right place. Chloe wrote that

on Google review. I copied that from RetroFestive. So RetroFestive will give a gift to everybody who comes out on Saturday November 29th. So all that's happening. So kind of like that's where Caratop would shop. That's where Caratop would shop, yeah.

I mean, he's in town. He goes to the retrofestive shop in Oakville. But you can also go to Retrofestive. C.A. And Ty Schwartz will take care of you. Why not retro festive? I like that. Yeah, it's cool.

It's a cool new sponsor just for November and December because it's the holiday season. Now, Ger Joyce did write in a quick question here. And then I want to get back to the book here. Oh, yeah. So Ger Joyce is the writer? Gere Joyce the writer.

He's living in Kingston now. I know. Ask Hebsy how he ended up doing a stint in Ottawa. The townies had no time for him or me. Yeah, I was working in Ottawa when they first started their sports radio station. So the Ottawa radio version of The Fan would have been in the late 1990s. And they took over a frequency, I forget, it was some pop station or whatever, AM frequency. And it was called OSR.

Ottawa Sports Radio. And all the Ottawa Senators games were on this station. And naturally, they're promoting the hell out of Alexei Yashin over here, Daniel Alfredson over there. There's Ron Tugnut. There's, you know, there's Damien Rhodes and all the, right? And now we, they've, you know, and they've had a team for a few years, but now they've got an official radio station, all the games, whatever.

And Dean Brown is doing the play-by-play and Dean Gord. And anyway, so I get a phone call, and it's like, you know, we would love for you to be part of Ottawa Sports Radio. And I'm like, I'm working in Toronto on headline sports, which became the score. I'm doing five nights a week. And I was doing weekends. So I think my days off were, I think my days off were Thursday and Friday. Yeah, my days off were Thursday and Friday.

Those are the days I didn't work at headline sports. So those were the days they wanted me to be up in Ottawa doing the afternoon show with with J.R. John Rodenberg and and you know Senators pre and post game and that whole thing like that. So every week, every week Thursday afternoon I would fly to

Ottawa. I would do the show Thursday in the studio from like four to seven you know the afternoon drive show. Sure. If there was a game that night we'd go to the game and then I'd stay over and then the next day of the Friday I would check out of the hotel, go to the radio station,

do the afternoon show. Show was over cab waiting for me or limo or whatever, a car, right to the airport on an 8 o'clock flight, right, or a 9 p.m. flight from Ottawa to Toronto and then I'm home and go home. I did it every week for like six months or so all winter. And then I was getting to be real. It was tough because I had two little kids at home and everything. Anyway, long story short, if that's possible at this point.

After six months, I'm burned. And now I'm saying for me to keep doing this, I've got to be making more money. I got to spend more time in Ottawa too. But I've got to be making more money. And they said, well, no. And I went, okay, then fine. And that was the end of that experiment. So for six months, I was an Ottawa reporter and a Toronto reporter at the same time.

I followed the Leafs. I followed the senators. That's got to be grueling. It was grueling, okay? But you know what it is? When they wave money at you and say, can you do this? And you go, you know, making hay while the sun shines or however you're thinking, you know, daddy needs a new pair of whatever, a couple thousand more for a vacation, whatever it was.

it's very hard to say no when they're offering you that and you think you can do it you say i can do that i can travel and i can do this and i can be there and be up early in four o'clock in the morning and still you think you can and after a while you believe and then you come crashing down one day you start to cry like i do when they're like you know i was away from home i missed my kids i missed my wife i was like whatever the money didn't make a difference at that point i was really quite lonely right and um yeah i was you know i'd been doing it for a while and just said, I can't do this anymore. And I saw people that were the same as me, but they, they kept doing it.

They kept, it was ruining their life in other ways, but they kept doing it because that's what they were put on this earth for. But that's an addiction. I find that's an addiction too is, I cannot leave money on the table. Correct. Correct. And at some point in your life, you will get to the point, hopefully, where you go, I don't need this anymore.

Yeah, there's going to be a balance. I reached that point. in some cases I thought it was too late but then I saw others and said no it wasn't too late it was probably just right well hey there's a question from Mark Wiseblot

who read your book and also gives it a positive review he says it's very good can you guys who are giving positive reviews do me a favor and go to Google or like if you got it on Amazon write their reviews those reviews are so powerful and they get it like I think

you say, Mike, they get into the algorithm. I'll do that. It's unbelievable, right? Like, I saw this one, I won't say what the book is by, but the person, the author must have gotten a couple of friends. These were glowing five-star, whatever, and they made the rounds. And I'm looking, I'm going, so reviews, two. And both of them are spectacular.

Those are the only two reviews for the book, and those two great reviews. It's a bestseller by now. Wow. Okay. He says, shout out, there's a shout out in the book to, local broadcaster Russ Salzberg, who along with Peter Gross, because he knows my dear friend Peter Gross,

along with Peter Gross, we're ahead of the curve, Hebsy joined on TV. Russ has been around in New York City since the earliest WFAN and is still online to this day. Like, what can you tell us youngsters about Russ Salzberg? All right. So when I had a radio show on CKE,

this would have been 1982 and 83, I used to have a show every Friday called Trivia Night. Now, I got this idea from Bob McCown because we would throw trivia stuff around. You know, Bob was my mentor. He's the one who hired me at first in radio, you know, like a big brother. I'll be quite honest here. And if it wasn't for him, and he really backed me, you know, when you got someone that's in your corner and they have some influence,

it's tremendous. That's it. That's the guy. And, you know, there's a whole chapter. I mean, there's lots in the book about Bob and his show and, you know, what I learned from him about the business. And remember, he started in radio like me, and then he went to television,

and who took over for him on sports lines? So, you know, there's a connection there. But, yeah, what was the question? Salisbury. So anyway, I had the show on CKE, and I used to do trivia night, and the deal was this. I would, you'd call in, I would give you a question, you would give me a trivia question.

If I couldn't answer that question, right? correctly, then I would give you a question of your choice from whatever category you wanted, right? And so this kid with a New York accent, a Brooklyn accent, would call in, and he'd give me a question, some wild question. Now, in those days, it's hard to verify it. So he would say, like, you know, what were the name of the four, linemen, and blah, blah, blah. So I would get three of the four. I wouldn't get the fourth guy.

You know, are you sure? You know, it was Harry Stoodmire. Okay. Go ahead. So now I would ask him, then I would ask him a question. It was always like baseball. It would make me a baseball question, and he would get it right, and he would win a prize, a Cassio sports watch, a pair of sneakers, whatever it was. Anyway, the kid's name was Russ.

We never did last names. It was Russ from Toronto, right? You know by the Jack from Montreal. So it was never last names. And the reason it was never last names, because if I said, you ass or you jerk or I hung up on the guy, he could have gone to the Canadian broadcast standards. And he could have fought, like you say, hey, people know my name as Russ. Salzberg, and, you know, for example, and he defamed me on the air. Right.

So you want to avoid, I want to avoid, so there's no last names. So anyway, this guy would come in, we started a thing saying, look, you can't win, you know, within a six-month period, more than once, because you're taking it away from other people. So this guy, I think, won two of the first three weeks, and I said to my producer, Mitch Liffick, I said, look, this guy, Russ calls and he and says to him, he's not eligible for the trivia anymore. Right.

And he got mad. So what are you talking about? I know more than these other guy. And before I know it, he's on cable TV, and he's called. calling basketball games, the Toronto Towers of the Continental Basketball Association. He's sitting courtside calling basketball games. And during the week, he's calling my phone-in show with his opinions. And, of course, he becomes a sportscaster here in Toronto.

So that's where Russ Salzberg started, calling my show and winning trivia. So I asked him the other day, because I was online with him, and I said, hey, Russ, you still got those Casio sports watches that you run from me back of the 80s? Anyway, he's doing fine. Well, Wise Blot says he won a contest from Scruff Connors and Gene Valitis. I guess this is Q107 if it's Scroft Conners and Gene Valitis. Absolutely. They were auditioning sports guys and he won a contest for like listeners.

That's what it was. That's what it was. But it's right. He had gotten his experience doing as a, as a, just a, you know, a caller on my show. Right. And he had personality. And, you know, he definitely, you know, you could, whoa, that guy. And of course, that distinct bro.

Brooklyn accent, the Dodger, Russ, the Dodger. That's right. Yeah, I'd completely forgotten about that. That's great. That's why we need a Y-Squot in our life. Yeah. They were auditioning sportscasters. Oh, Mike, what year would that have been?

84, I'm going to say. Yeah, before Brother Jake. So, yeah, 84. So I got to find out from Gene. I got to find out from, that's great. That's great. That's great. That's beautiful.

We got to reunite. We got to reunite. You and Russ and Gene. We can make this happen. Oh, easily. I go on Gene's radio show. I've been on a show many, many times. Is it's 16.

6.10, CKTB. Okay, I definitely heard about this. All during the World Series, I was on there. Yeah, yeah. I love how you guys are still together. Okay, because there's a question coming up on that. There's so much ground we've got to come. Hepz, you don't have anything going on for the next several hours, do you?

Mike, I don't have to do anything to what time is it? Oh, until Mike Richards. No, that's tomorrow. No, no, no, no, no. It's like good. I got a full tank of gas in the car. I'm good for the day. All right, because, you know, this all builds up.

This is exciting, isn't it, though? I mean, I know that we're this all live, but I haven't seen you. I know. Like we haven't touched each other and like how long. And I've been listening to the pods. They're great, right? And I've been keeping up with what's going on.

I see pictures of you and your kids, right? Did you hear I'm doing more music episodes? I love it. Finger 11 came over. The Trues came over. And you know what? I played golf with, what's his name in the Trues? We had played together.

McDonald's, the lead singer. And John Angus is the guitarist. John Angus. Me, John Angus, and the producer Gavin Brown. You've had Gavin on the show? No, I haven't had Gavin. Do you want Gavin on the show? Yeah.

He's so good. He's got the best story. You had me at Hello. He was played, I think he played drums and Big Sugar, didn't he? Big Sugar's all over this story because Johnson, Gordy Johnson,

produced the early truths. That's right. And you know what? Go ahead. I was going to say, this ties back to Scruff in a way. We're going back. We're going down a rabbit hole here.

But this is what we do, the Tantions. Toronto, what is it, tangent mic, somebody called it here. But Scruff Connors, of course,

was from a, other than Q, 97-7 hits FM. And the White House of Rock built by Chavon Morris's dad. Yes, that's right. On Yates Street in St. Catherine. Right. And they are very, very responsible

for breaking not just the truths because of their homegrown contest, similar to like Q had or CF and Y had, but they also broke Finger 11 from Burlington in the same way. Paralyzer, baby. One of the best songs I've ever, I mean, that is on,

I hear that all the time. I love that stuff. Well, they had two international hits. So we always talk about these bands and they're big in Canada, right? Like Canadian hits that we know and love. But two international hits from Finger 11, Paralyzer, which was huge, of course, maybe their biggest hit. And then one thing.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Right. Yeah. Good stuff. Wouldn't that be something on the singing too? But I want to ask you personal question because you came at the door and you look great. Thank you.

Like, that's not even a personal question. That's me telling you. Like, you honestly, I happen to know approximately. your age. I don't know the exact way. I'm going to be 70. See, honestly, you're putting me to shame here. You look fantastic. Thank you. Yeah. No, it reached a point in my life where I was like, I looked at my, I looked at a picture of myself. Really? Oh, man. You know, I've been really sloth-like. And it wasn't that I wasn't, not working out. I mean, it's just I fell into some bad habits.

And I really wanted to do something that was going to, you know, I wanted the longevity. Because it's like, I'm going to be 70. And what do I would love to do? like to be active and I like to play golf and do you want to be playing golf when you're 80 well of course I do well guess what you'd and 90 maybe even sure um so yeah um I started doing it intermittent fasting when I started I was like fasting I can't fast that's not for me but it's easy because basically you're only eating in an eight hour window right so it reduces your calorie consumption and the way I understood it was um instead of eating breakfast in the morning and whatever let the stored fat that you've got in your body from the, let that be your energy, supply the energy, and drink a lot of

water. Anyway, it works for me. I don't eat until noon. Sometimes I'll wait until one, even two o'clock depending. I don't, I eat when I'm hungry, but I'm not necessarily starve. I'm not starving at noon. I'm not looking at the clock going on like, God, eat something. No, you have a coffee. I have a coffee in the morning, and I drink water, but, and then, and then by, you know, I stop eating at, like, you know, 8 p.m. After 8 p.m. I'm not hungry anymore. I'm satisfied. Shut it down. So I go 16 hours without eating. Any food?

And I work out and, yeah, I walk everywhere I can. I've always taken the stairs versus an escalator or an elevator. That's just the way I am. And when we were in Vegas, a lot of walking and a lot of, you know, a lot of places with some, you know, substantial escalators. Like going up to the top of the arena in Vegas, the T-Mobile arena, that's a long way. And I'm stepping it. And I'm going, Jesus Christ, like the C.N. Tower. My heart's beating like a rabbit, bud.

I'm just used to that. You're good cardio fitness. Yeah, thank you. Yeah. And so I got to comment on your physical appearance in one other way, except to tell you that yesterday, I'm at Casilloma, and they got these towers, and there's spiral staircases, and there's the tallest tower. I think it's called Norman Tower. Yeah. Of course, I said, I want to go to the top of Norman Tower and take a picture.

And I was with a few other people, and we're going up, and I can, they're talking, and I can hear they're winded, like having trouble to talk. And I'm just here to tap myself in the back and say, I was not winded at all. all. I think I'm in good cardio shape too, Hefsie. I think we've learned from previous generations, but we see what's happened with this generation. I just came back from the States. Man, the servings, the amount of food, if I was to eat everything that was on my plate, I would be large. And I can see that's just the culture there. And yeah, they're not walking. They're in, you know, they're not taking the stairs, right? They're taking the elevator. Oh, no. Look, we went, I went walking. I mean, I didn't see anybody

else walking. I mean, nobody was walking where I was. I mean, yeah. And they drove to the shopping center or to the mall or whatever, and they did, but no one was walking around. Oh, boy, we got to keep moving. That's what Dick Van Dyke always said. He said, just keep moving. And the guy is turning 100 soon. So Dick Van Dyke, shout out to him if he's listening. My dad's 93.

I was going to ask how your dad's doing. He's great, man. He's like, you know, I'm not going to, like, his mother went into a wheelchair when she was around 90. And look, when you're in a wheelchair, that changes things a lot. You've lost your independence that completely. that way. And so he's still got the cane happening and the walker if he needs it, but like, you know, I'm not getting me

in a wheelchair. He's still mobile. That's everything. Okay. I was going to ask you about your facial hair because you're rocking this goatee, which I hadn't typically seen when you'd come over for Hebsy on sports, but what strikes me is the pigmentation. Are you dying

that beard? No, no. There's gray in there, isn't there? There's a bit of like a salt, but it's mostly black. But you know, my hair though, too, there's a line in the hair where it's dark and then the rest of it's gray like in the back there look. Oh, a little bit, okay, but you're holding on to this pigmentation. How are, how is, is this just good genes?

Of course, it must be just good genes. I think it is because I know people, there's people, not my age, but I know guys, I'm like looking, going, do they dye their hair or isn't their natural color? But I've noticed a big difference, you're right. A lot of people have their hair is naturally dark and their beard starts to turn gray prematurely versus the rest of their hair.

And then there's other people who's portions of their beard. Like if I was to grow the full beard, oh, it's gray. It's Santa Claus. white to here. But in this area, there is dark. I'm impressed. I did periodically,

I'll just for fun, if I had like, it's time to shave. I'll just, I'll leave something there. And then I realized very quickly, oh, it's pure white.

Like, and I just look bad. I don't like this look. And I say, I'm going to get rid of this thing. I'm not going to rock this thing. But you don't have that problem. That's,

you know what it's boredom to. The other thing was is that I thought, oh, geez, like the cover of the book is me clean shaven. And, and that's Bill King. I know, FOTM, Bill King.

You got it, the great Bill King. Bill King, I say this, Bill King is a better photographer than he is a musician. Wow. And he's a spectacular musician and producer, but as a photographer, he's got a feel, right, for, I don't know what it is, a texture. Like a great jazz musician would, I guess. He's got that. He just got it. And the pictures he takes are beautiful.

And I asked him specifically, I said, Bill, I wanted him to take the cover picture. And I had an idea, it came from an idea, and the actual picture that I saw was a Sports Illustrated cover of Bill Lane Beer of the Detroit Pistons with his hands over his head, basically going, you, what kind of call was? It was a great, great picture. And I asked Bill if we could duplicate that. Look, and yeah, I'm really happy with that. There's a problem, though. There's nothing in the book that says cover photo by Bill King. Oh, that's bigger mistake than the audio says a mistake.

Yeah, it's a cringing kind of, oh, man. You got to get like one line. Yeah, you know, I'm so, you know, I'm, yeah, I felt bad about that. There was somebody, you know, screwed up there in the first print. I don't know what it was and I'm going to get in trouble for saying it. But yeah. So I'm telling you, folks, cover photo by Bill King, just beautiful, absolutely beautiful. The other thing I don't feel so bad is, you know, Bill was paid for his services.

None of this is free stuff. People don't do stuff for free. And I would never ask a professional to do something for free that they, you know, do professionally. You know, right? Well, if somebody, like a friend of yours, asked you for some, like, for their own independent project, not for a big company, but asked you for some, like, voiceover work. Of course. Wouldn't even think about it. Of course.

But if it's so they can earn money, then no, right? So in my case, you know, I'm going to ask Bill to do something for free so that I can make money off. No. So, you know, I paid him. I asked him how much he charged and, you know, professionally. Okay, fine. And so anyway, so I feel at least that he got paid, you know, for it. But the credit, you know, would have been anyway.

Yeah. You smoke in cannabis these days? Yeah. Yeah, grow it. You get four plans, right? Are you going four plans? I only did two this year. And it was a bad year.

And I think a lot of people will tell you. What makes it a bad year? I don't know. It was something weird, but the yield wasn't what it was in previous years. Depends on the strain, I guess. But also, this was an exceptionally long growing season this year, Mike. It was really weird. Like, when you see snow mixed in with leaves,

that haven't fallen off trees, that's bizarre. So there's something about this year where you would think, oh, it's a longer growing season, so everything should have grown more, but I don't think it was just odd this year. I think Peter Gross, who does not consume cannabis anymore, he grew a plant simply because he could legally do it.

It was like a principal thing for him, because he was back in the day when he was illegal, he would get caught by somebody or whatever. Oh, is that what happened? So it was like, in principle, he grew a plant because he could do it. Like, it was like, I'm doing this now because it's,

It's legal. And what is he doing with the product? I guess he gives it to friends. I don't know. But I got, he's got, by wait, he will also be at TMLX21.

Can I tell you a great Peter Gross story? At some point at TMLX21. Remind me. Oh, I was going to do it now. Okay. No, no,

no, no, I wouldn't take up airtime. Yeah. No, but when Peter's on, because I got to jump in with a great story about Peter.

Done. Mental note taken, for sure. But I brought up cannabis because if you need to supplement your supply, shop kindling.ca is a new sponsor of Toronto, Mike. And it's kind of awesome in 2025 that if you order between 9 a.m. and 11 p.m.,

they will have it in your possession within the hour. So the delivery is free, and it's under an hour in your possession. You can track it like an Uber. Wow. And it's discreet. Not that you would care, because you're Hebsie man. But if you were...

What do you mean? I want to be more discreet than anyone else. Why? Like, why? I feel like that would be part of the Hebsy brand that... Well, it is, but I mean, still discreet, meaning, you know...

To me, discreet is like, okay, I don't know, you're a kindergarten teacher, let's say. Okay. And on a Friday night, you're getting your delivery of cannabis. Maybe you don't want your neighbors, maybe one of your neighbors

as a kid is in your class. You don't want them to see the, the cannabis truck show up. But it's okay to go to the LCBO, right, and grab a 40-pounder next... Right. I'm with you. So hypocritical.

I'm with you, man. Come on. I'm with you. But it is discreet, if that's your concern. But shopkindling.ca. And real quickly here, I want to shout out Doug Mills from Blue Sky Agency

because if there's any listeners looking for dynamic and creative work environments, Doug is your guy. He's got partners with established office furniture brands like silent and green furniture concept and Roolyard. And he can be reached right now, Doug at blue skyagency.ca.cage Doug and chat him up about this. And Hebsie, you know, because I've told you 100 times.

Recyclemyelectronics.ca. If you in Markham, if you have any old cables, old electronics, old devices, you don't throw that in the garbage because those chemicals end up in our landfill. Go to recycle myelectronics.ca, put in your postal code and find out where to drop them off to be properly recycled. Good, because I got tons. I mean, I got cords like, what is this for? Is this a flash cord here?

Do they make these anymore? You know, we all have these cables that haven't been relevant in decades. And we hold on to them because we always think one day we're going to find that advice or something and where's the cable? Oh my God, I threw it out. Now I can't use this thing. Quick shout out to a few podcasts and then I have more questions for you, Hebsy Man. But the questions are coming. I'm going to shout out Life's Undertaking, which is a great podcast from Brad Jones at Ridley Funeral Home. You've met Brad, right? Yep. So he's been a great supporter. We produce Life's Undertaking and you can listen to that fine podcast. I get to co-host

that like I did on Hebson Sports. Oh, remind me to thank you. Thank you about something regarding Hebsy on Sports in a moment. But I just want to make sure Nick Iienes gets love because Nick has a podcast called Building Toronto Skyline and he has another podcast called Building Success and they're both great and I urge people to check it out. Thank you, Nick Aeney's from Fusion Corp, Developments Incorporated. Thank you for the part you wrote in your book about parades

and you talked about the Raptors Parade. And I, not only did I get a shout out, Hebsy Man, in your book, there's a picture of me. Yeah. There's no photo credit you notice on that picture because I took that photo, didn't I?

Selfie? Did you take the selfie or did I take? No, I took it. Did you get credit? Look at the picture. Did you get credit? I don't know.

I didn't even look for that. Oh, you should. Because on the side, on the side bar of it, there should be photocrat. I don't know if you did. Oh, my God. Okay, Hebsy, this is.

I thought I'm going to take that one. Wait a second. Okay. Wait, wait, wait, wait. There was more than one picture. Hang on, Mike. There's one picture of me. We both took pictures.

I know this one I took because you're not looking at the... Oh, no, I know where to look. I know where to look. I know where to look and you take the selfie, but this one is absolutely I took the selfie. And that's why I remember sending it to you. Did you get credit? No, but I think it's part of a story where you and I went to the Raptors parade

after an episode of Hebsie on sports. Yeah. And it's possible you Hebsie caused a... That's not possible. You know what happened. Share this story, share this story because it's so well... Okay, so here's the story. So the day of the Raptors Parade, Mike and I are recording an episode of Hebsey on Sports.

It's beautiful, gorgeous Friday, if you remember the day. It's just beautiful. And remember, we're done pretty early in the morning. Like, we're done by, what, 10 a.m.? Even before that. Yeah. I think even before that, we were done. Kids were all gone to school or whatever was going on.

Right. Your kids were so young then. Yeah. And then we rode our bikes along the Martin Goodman Trail, right along the waterfront, to the Princess Gates, where the Raptors' championship parade was going to begin. Right. And if you recall, Mike, we just had the discussion saying, who would, why would they start

at, like, what, it's a long way? Right. Normally, it's at base, it's right at the Union Station and it's, what, six blocks up Bay Street to Nathan Phillips Square. Right. But somebody decided, oh, it started at the Prince's Gates. And so we got there fairly early, probably maybe, I don't know, 20 minutes, half an hour before the parade started, right?

And Lake Shore Boulevard there is extremely wide. It's four wide, wide lanes. and normally for a parade you line up on the curb right right not in the roadway on the curb right and there's steel barriers there or there's a police presence there or there's something right so mike and i are there and we're looking and we're thinking there's no way that the floats are going to go four lanes wide right it's going to be a one lane of floats kind of thing and i'm looking around and what are we standing on the curb for screw this so mike and i go to the basically the middle of the road.

Right. Right. And so we're on the edge of where one of the painted lines is for the middle lane, let's say, right? And we stand right there because we know the parade is going to go in one procession right past us. And we can now touch the people in the parade floats and all that stuff, right? Yeah. So remember Mike? We're standing there and everyone is, remember, there's people on both sides of Lakeshore Boulevard, right, on the curb.

And I don't know, what is it? It's 100 feet wide or whatever it is. And people are looking going, one of these two guys do it. And anyway, slowly, people start coming off the curb where they've been standing patiently, waiting for the parade, and come to where we are in the middle of the frickin' road. From both sides of Lakeshore,

and now this four-lane road has been reduced to one narrow lane, and everybody else, because there's no barriers and no police presence, has now decided they're going to move to the middle of the road, and what did we start here? So Mike and I see the beginning of the parade. It's terrific, it's fabulous. He was really wonderful.

It was really great. Now it's half an hour it's done. And so we got our bikes and sees, okay, that's it for the parade. We've seen it. Mike goes his way. I go my way. We end up, I go home. You know, it took me, I don't know, half an hour.

You were going to college in Clinton. Yeah, it was a little and Mike eventually ended up going home to or you wouldn't see your wife or whatever it was. Oh, yeah, I can't remember. Whatever it was. So now I turn on the TV and I see, and I see this shot from overhead of this massive crowd swallowing up this little, you know, procession. I'm going, what the heck? And the announcer on TV. And I forget what station says, well, I don't know how this happened, but this is a major, major problem as the, as the, I think they said something about the barriers.

Someone went down, something about no barriers or it's a knock down the barriers or whatever it was. Because by the time the procession got to where the barriers are, now it was really swallowed up. Right. There was nowhere to go. Right. And it's a hot, hot day. And there's 100,000 people waiting at Nathan Phillips Square and they're dying. There's no shade, right?

and people are dying and they're waiting for this, you know, parade that's now taken way too long. And I remember, I think, Mike, I might have texted you or something. Kind of like, shit, look what we started. Look what we started. We did that. We did that. I'm going to tell you this right now.

Nobody else would have gotten off the curb, right? And had the balls or the stupidity to say, let's go in the middle of, except me and Mike, something had to happen. And basically in the book, Mike, and you read it, there's a lot of stories like that where Hebsy, did something like, you're not supposed to do this, but I got to get the story. I got to get closer or whatever it was. So we would do something that

we weren't supposed to do that was either illegal or whatever to get around, you know, and then we were ready to explain. Like if a cop would have come up to you and me saying, what are you guys doing here? We would have come up with a good excuse. We're from Hebsie on sports. We're covering this. We're media. Yeah, we're media. You know, here's our credentials. I've been using that all the time.

I'm media. And you are. I know. It's somehow it worked out Okay, that's interesting What I like about your book You'll often share anecdotes About the fierce competition Between the CFTO people And the global people

The city people and everything And especially when it comes to access Somebody like access to George Bell or something And then you'll talk about Joe Tilly Got him and you guys Yeah Just that whole era And then to speak to that

But I'm going to ask you a question from Alan Gold Alan I believe I have to confirm 100%. I believe he'll be at TMLX21 I hope he's there We call him Hayref. He writes,

Back in the day, could Hebsy imagine a day like we have now where there isn't a person doing the evening news who's a sportscaster? He goes, I'm old enough to remember the legend Brian Williams doing local sports on CBLT, CBC Toronto. Yeah, there's no more Joe Tilly's. No, that role does not exist anymore.

If people want their sports news, they're going to tune into one of the 24-hour sports stations. And I think if I'm not mistaken, and they're both aligned with one of the local cable stations too. So they'll just take the, you know, now here's TSN SportsCaster, so-and-so with your little sports break or stuff like that. And also we can all get it on our devices in advance. The thing that I liked was knowing that at a certain time,

you could watch a certain show, you know, live with an up-to-date live. And now if I flip on, you know, TSN or Sportsnet at 11 p.m., I kind of still have, expect the late sports cast. but it's not on generally they're running a game or something like that so I kind of miss that appointment viewing of the sports cast but I understand it and naturally the local sportscaster

the person you know now it's time for local sports doesn't exist anymore and of course those stories about high school sports or local sports people are you know come on gather around the TV they're going to do a story about the Ashwaan generals and no doesn't exist anymore I remember stories about the

Power Trojans the Michael Power Trojougeon they'd be playing a big game against say mics or something and absolutely city TV was oh city look city was all over that I was all over it they were at every high school I could still see McKinney and Greg Manziuk and and John Saunders and Jim Taddy and and Russ Salisberg and Peter Gross and hang on there's more Dave Reynolds Debbie Van Kiekekebelt and Romer Dave Reynolds hang on I'll give you another one um she went to New York uh Mary Garofalo

Garofalo, thank you. I just talked to Thalia Assuris. Dahlia Assuris, there you go. I used to work with her at Global TV. Yep. Yeah, and she's still dear friends of Mary. They both went to the States. Yeah, it's horrific.

So, you know, if you go, and I list a lot of these people in the book, but, you know, if you grew up in the area where we saw these people on television, heard them on the radio, read their stuff, that kind of thing, it's amazing how. Whatever happened to, like the people ask me that, whatever happened to so-and-so that used to, whatever happened to Gail Smith from CFTO? that one, I get asked a lot too. You know, whatever happened to? Where is she?

I don't know. I would love to talk to Gales. But, you know, I worked with a guy, Richard Brown, who was a fantastic news. Tremendous newscaster, right? And then next I heard he was here and there he was there. He was in Spokane. He was in Portland. He was in Seattle.

And, you know, there are people that do that they move around a lot. You mentioned City TV's Jim Tattie, of course. So when people think about Mark Hebscher, we think about how fucking great sports line was. and we think about Mark Hebscher and Jim Taddy. I know, I mean, I saw the golf photo from a few years ago, but maybe a little Jim Taddy real talk. Like, what is the relationship like between Mark Hibbtshire and Jim Taddy? Perfectly.

Perfectly, perfectly. Jim lives, he lives in Hamilton now. He's doing, you know, a fair bit of radio, right? He's doing RAPters. Yeah, TSN Radio, Raptors and Leafs, if they have the games, pre and post game stuff and, you know, and doing the occasional gig on TSN 1050. But you have to understand something.

He lives in Hamilton. I live in Markham, right? Like even the idea of like, yeah, we'll get together in Mississippi. No. And he works. And so the opportunity to get together, you know, is very difficult. Like I said, we golfed a few years back now. No, I remember because you were doing Hebsy on sports.

And, you know, I don't know how many people you're talked to on the phone. How many of your friends you're on the phone with or whatever? Just Peter Gross. So have I spoken to him, no are we in on bad terms not in the least bit dude we would not have gone golfing and kibbits the round and whatever yeah however many years ago that was uh and um you know and and then gone back to like what people think was a i don't know um uh strained relationship no uh we work together for 11 years okay and so after 11 years i don't care what kind of relationship

it is whether it's romantic whether it's a business relationship you're there's going to be bumps in the road. And so I know there was at least one person, a columnist, won't mention his name, Toronto's son, who really wanted us to, he really wanted a blow up. He wanted to see evidence that there was a real problem between the two of us. He was predicting that one would be jealous of the other, that one would not want to work with the other. He really had a hard on for this. relationship, on-air relationship to fail, it was kind of sad because a lot of people who read this particular columnist believed, actually believed what he was writing was the truth and that

Phil Castle was eating hot dogs from a, you know, a place and, and all this kind of stuff. So when you say stuff, like when you write things and you infer, all right, you don't put down the word rumor, oh, rumor has it, because that's just a, but, you know, but, you. You know, it's like, well, I guess these two don't get along so well because one is hosting the games and the Hebsy Awards and the other one looks like he's jealous. When he looks over at him on TV, I'm reading it, like all that shit. But why would somebody, like, I think I know you're talking about it,

I won't say the name, but because obviously you're not saying the name, but why would somebody, is it just that maybe bringing down others raises you somehow? Is that the... Do you know people like that? Yeah, I do. I do. I know a lot of people like that. I do too. too many people like that right like like if you if you go down somehow i'm elevated which is just

ridiculous like let's all let's all rise together oh yeah look when joe tilly and i had that punch up not wasn't a punch up it was an argument and it was and was his cameraman rob mulligan and remember i know these guys like i knew them professionally right and i knew them personally and i also know that when you got a chance at a story you got a chance to beat your competitor you go for it man so but in the heat of the moment was like, hey, you're not being fair. If that happened today, I wouldn't have a chance because that, let's see, he was working for the rights holders. And the rights holders would have been the only ones who would have had access. You see, the rest of the media would not have had access. And the Blue Jays at the, today's Blue Jays would have said, we're not going to

let you talk to so and so or so and so. We're going to bring the players out that we want you to talk to. We're going to create the narrative, all right? And if you notice in all these press conferences. It's the same person starts the questioning. You notice that, Mike? Let's go to John Snyder's press conference, boom. Who's always asking the first question? A sports net property. Kagan Matheson.

Oh, Kagan, Malthuson. From MLB. Right. Because Kegan Matheson works for the league. Right. He works for the league. And his is the Blue Jays, right? So he works for the league and the team. Right. And I don't mean that he's not a journalist. He wrote a terrific book. But a franchise. Part of his job is, right, because he's working for the league MLB and a member team,

he's not going to start with negative. He's not going to get into stuff. Well, this is the big problem, right? He's not going to do it. He's going to throw not a softball question, but it's like John Schneider's here now. This is the 95th game in a row that John Schneider has come out after the game to answer questions from the media, 95 games in a row.

And so here's Keegan going, and he's got to start things going. Well, John, you know, the seventh inning, this guy's saying, you know, what was your feeling there? It's never, you know, John, what the hell happened in the ninth when, you know, the base runner got thing or what, you know, what, what, what's your, what, what happened with Vladdy there. It's not going to be that way. You got to start it off easy. And then maybe what happens is John Schneider decides he's going to say, that was a bit disappointed in Vladdy on that base running or whatever. But, and so it's, it's filtered, right?

There isn't going to be, you're not going to hear a voice going, what, John, people are going to say that you should be fired. What do you think about that? you're not going to get that because the PR person is going to take you away and then your boss is going to get a note saying we're taking away your credentials your credentials are being taken away because we don't like the questions that you're asking and we can do this because we're the team and go ahead and complain about it in your newspaper or on your show or whatever we do what we want we own the team we own the media now they do they own the media don't ever forget that

There's nothing that the mainstream media is going to do to make the Toronto Blue Jays or Toronto Maple Police change their minds on their narrative or where they stand. Not going to happen. And there's an incident in the book. There's one in the book where Mark Shapiro goes to one of the Sportsnet reporters

and says, I don't like what you wrote about our drafting. Called the guy out and essentially was like, you're going to keep writing stuff like this. Guess what? Not going to have a job for much longer. the threat was there, it was never said, it was implied. Right. Don't write this stuff, write the good stuff.

Talk about our good draft picks, not the ones we missed out on. Well, this is like when Wilner was sent home for criticizing how Cedogastin was using the... Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And so where's the independent broadcaster? When I worked at Global, we didn't have any rights or anything like that. Bill Bird would ask Cito Gaston question. If Cito didn't answer it, Bill Bird would ask it the same question.

He'd rephrase it. What a different time. He'd rephrase it. He'd say, Cito, you got it. tell the listeners. Why did you, what happened between you and Dwayne Ward? Why? Why did you snatch the ball from Dwayne Ward's hands? We all saw it. And Cito's like, well, that's between him and me. And Bill was like, not good enough. We need to know. But it's almost like you're, go ahead. Right? Adversarial. You got to cover this guy every day. Well, it's, now it's been

flipped. Now Cito goes, let's say, if it was Cito or the manager, whoever it is goes to the PR person, says, I don't want to talk to someone. I don't want to answer his questions. I don't want that. So, okay, no problem. We won't let them in or you can't ask that or we'll have our reporter. But that's like Trump's White House. We'll have our reporter ask the questions. The questions that our manager wants to answer. Let's do it that way. Let's do it that way. No, no, no. That's Keegan. Remember, he works for MLB.com. Don't, folks, don't kid yourself. Anyone that works for a league operated website, anyone that writes for NHL.com or NFL.com or ML. They work for the league, right?

They may have been former journalists, but their job here is not to be a journalist. It's to be a league representative from the media, right? It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, on MLB gambling stuff. You don't see, of the whole inside story of class A in the pitch, no, but most people are sophisticated enough to know if they're getting their news from MLB.com, be it kegan or anyone else. Nobody's expecting

like any, you know, hard-hitting thing about asking about, I don't know, performance enhancing drugs or gambling and sport. Like, that's not, we know that you're going there for just the X's and O's and on-field stuff. Right? Only, I had Mike Zeisberger down here. But do you think so? But Zeisberger was... But Zysburger was...

And he said as much. He said, yeah, we're not here to write the negative stuff. Of course. Of course not. Because, again, it's the league operator website. Like, I tell a lot of young journalists, they say, I say, you want to be a journalist? I said, it may not be journalism, but go write some stuff for a league run, and I don't care if it's the National

Women's Soccer League, or it's your you know, your high school, you know, your high school football or whatever you're writing is, right? If it's going to be hard-eating journalism, it's not something they're going to want on the league-operated website.

And there's many of them and a lot of people might cannot differentiate. They do expect news and what they're reading on the league website. is shaping their thinking towards the positive and away from anything that might, you know, deter them from being a fan. Are you surprised in 2025 that TSN still pays Rick Westhead to be a investigative journalist in the world of sports?

I'm thankful that they do, and I think his stuff's in the Toronto Star 2, am I not mistaken? Oh. Doesn't a lot of the Westhead stuff end up in the star? I should know the answer, maybe, only because Rick also wrote a book and he's going to come over at some point. soon but yeah i haven't read it but it's uh yeah i'm looking forward to that that's um we are lions or something yeah lions yes yeah um but i write i refer in in my book about he's rick westhead

is really the only an investigative journalist and unfortunately that's a that's redundant a journalist investigates i guess it means he has more time to drill into one topic over a long Yes, and, you know, no one has done a better job of exposing, you know, the, the, the seamy underbelly of junior hockey to various degrees and, you know, the racism involved, the sexism involved, everything like that. And, but he's the only one. But good on Bell Media, you know, it's rare to say that sentence, but good on Bell Media that they do employ a Rick Westhead and give them independence to do that, considering they're the rights holders for the juniors. Right. And you'd think as a partner, we need, you know, positive spin and all this, get the eyeballs on this big tournament. That's pretty much the only one.

I can tell you that I didn't see any SportsNet coverage from London, Ontario, during the courts. Rick Westhead was doing lots of reports. I do know this. SportsNet sent someone I had never heard of before who had never been on camera before. I believe it was a producer. Don't know the person's name. And that person was in front of a courthouse doing the stand-ups, but no credibility there. I'm sure SportsNet said, look, stay away from this.

You know how much money we got invested in hockey? stay away from this story. Give it as little coverage as possible. And it's worth pointing out, CBC was covering it. Of course. I know one of the reporters covering it. So shout out to MF.

Oh, my goodness. Okay. And by way, Ray Hurd, he's the guy who put you guys together, Hezzi and Taddy, right? Ray Hurd, TV, Global TV executive here. Oh, by way, and also in your book, Hebsy, I'm trying to make sure I get my things before I just get the last questions here

because we should do this more often. but I will talk to you at TMLX21, November 29th, and everybody's invited, free event, no RSVP. Just show up second floor of Palma's Kitchen. Oh, Dave Charles is going to be there. Oh, good. I haven't seen Dave in such a long time. And you know what?

He invited me to a Jay's game. It was last season. I had to cancel. Something came up and I felt really bad. And apparently it was one of the great games of the year. And I felt I'm looking forward to seeing Dave. I haven't seen him in a while. He would love to hear because he said,

if you talk to Hebsy, ask him what pieces the Jay's need to win a World Series. Dave Charles. Not Bo Bichette. Well, that's a question from Kevin in Alberta. Does Bowe resign? No, no.

See, here's the thing. If he resigns, he resigns as a second basement. I agree if you. He's the worst. Folks, Bo Bichette is the worst shortstop in the league. We're talking as a shortstop, not as a hitter. He's the worst shortstop in the league.

I don't care which way you frame it. Now he's got a bad knee. He's going to plant that knee? No. So if the Js resign him, they're resigned him as a second basement and you're not, second baseman don't get shortstop money, if you know what I mean, right? But he's like maybe the best hitter in the league, pure hitter.

Maybe, right. But could he run? Can he play the field? Do you see him being a DH in five years? Oh, you know, I don't know how bad this knee is. Like, I don't know. I just assumed he would be able to run those bases. You would hope so?

Okay. He's playing on artificial surface as well, which may as an infielder isn't as bad as if you're an outfielder running out there, but, you know, running the bases. I mean, his problem was he couldn't turn the bay. He could run kind of in a straight line, but he couldn't turn at all. He couldn't, you know, make that turn. And he was a liability. And if you remember, they had to pinch run for him with Isaiah Kiner Folefa, who is not a good

base runner. And he's on third base with one out. Yep. Am I right? What do you think about two things in that play? Right. Because I'm actually, I'm kind of haunted by certain plays in that game seven. Are you? Because you know what?

The media has gone and said, Toronto Blue Jay fans will never forget this. And they take in that play. And they remember, the Jim Sundberg triple in 1985 was this particular moment. They're saying, we'll live in Blue Jay infamy, we'll live in infamy that they should have and they could have and they would have, but they didn't. So two things.

One is we've now all seen footage, aerial footage of the leadoff he had. Yes. and we know if he's if he's six inches closer to the bag we are the World Series champions in 2025 correct but also the guy who fielded the ball the second baseman for right if he doesn't bobble it he gets him by 10 feet so if this and if that and you can go through all of those things and why didn't he run the slide why didn't he run through the base exactly

but here's the other thing when was the last time you ever saw a play at the plate on a force where the guy was safe at the plate on a force you haven't It's very rare It's extremely rare Go ahead and find

A guy running hard from third And beating the throat to the plate On a force play Doesn't happen So a lot of things happen to happen there Number one is if you're a base runner You're told Do not get doubled off

Ever And number two Don't get picked off The back picked off the back pick right and there's plenty of examples where a good catcher will you know signal for the back pick he sees the guy get a secondary lead he's all ready to go the pitch is a ball or the pitch is swung and missed and the catcher boom back to third the guy gets picked remember what happened to vladdie a few years ago mike i remember getting picked off and so and remember what

it happened to addison barger in game six doubled off to end the game and so you can say all you want from sitting where you are but all the players themselves will tell you the same thing that kinderful effort did not make a mistake. He played it the way you're supposed to by the book and that's been drilled into every baseball player from the time he was eight years old. Don't get doubled off.

Don't get backpicked. There's a play in that game seven. I was reminded of, I guess you were talking about who's going to DH and I was thinking about George Springer. And then I don't think I've heard this addressed and I did stop consuming coverage basically right after the Dodgers clinched the World Series.

I was kind of tapped out for a bit. So maybe it was covered. Maybe I'm the last guy to clue in here. But early in that game seven, George Springer, I want to say picked off. I don't know. He was walking to second base with two out or something. Right. He thought it was ball four on the bat or on Bichette, I guess it was.

He thought it was ball four, but it wasn't ball four, right? And he thought he was going to second base because Bo was going to first base. Yeah, he was walking to second. And the umpire took his time on the call. It was a brain fart for sure. But I think that's two different players. I think that's the question. When Bichette got caught,

this is on game seven. It was different because I understand the Bouchet. He thought it was ball four. Okay, got it. So which one? So there's a play early in game seven. There's a play where Springer, they don't ever,

the Shulman and Bach never explained it, and I don't ever got an explanation, but basically it's early in game seven, you know what game sevens are like in the World Series. Every play is under a magnifying glass. But Springer gets kind of caught walking a second, like he was mentally checked out and thought something different was happening.

But it wasn't like the Bichette play where you can say, Oh, he thought it was ball four and he said, whatever. So I will leave it because maybe you don't have the explanation either, except this seemed to never get addressed that this veteran who's won a World Series, this savvy veteran of 36 years old or whatever, in game seven, made a really boneheaded mental base running error. Yes.

But now you're Dan Shulman and Buck Martinez. You see this happening. Under your breath, you're like, oh, geez, on the air, do you point out at that point? everyone's watching what does the buck have to say what does the springer have to say and then maybe the producer says let's just leave this one alone here or whatever we'll get your head in the game no hang on a second it's the home team announcers as well and it's maybe and they might have might have said oh my god what a bone-headed move to themselves

but for the broadcast you conveniently ignore something as opposed to picking on you know and saying and pointing out the shortcomings of your you know star player one of your star players and I can't believe he did that. Would you say that? Would you articulate that on the air? And I don't know if every announcer would do that. Maybe the analyst would. Like, for example, Joe Siddell might have pointed that out if he's sitting next to Dan.

Caleb Joseph might have pointed that out at the time. But they didn't. But after the game, oh yeah, after the game, Siddell, Caleb, everybody, but Hazel, basically. if there was a problem. But during the broadcast, and again, who are they broadcasting for? Owned by Rogers. Team is owned by Rogers.

Station is owned by Rogers. Stadium is owned by Rogers. You work for Rogers. You're going to temper it a bit. Right. Right. Speaking of Rogers, did you know Arash Medani was over fairly recently? I did.

And I listened to it. And I follow Arash. I like him. Even though he likes the Minnesota Vikings, I like him. He's a good guy. All right. Shout out to Truro.

a rash. And he's covering the tennis too. He was covering the tennis as well. And yeah, I like, you're still following tennis, right? I still do. I still do. And, you know, it's unfortunate what happened to a rash. And, and, you know, a lot of other people that we know that we're doing, you know, did a good job for a number of years. And for whatever reason, I think the person that they

replaced him with is making, where are we making one third of maybe what his salary was? I'm just guessing. And this person is very inexperienced and no one had ever heard of this person before but that's the way the business is and a lot of this is in this fantastic book called madness the rise and ruin of sports media mark hebscher's second book after the greatest athlete you've never heard of which i see you got a copy of it along as a matter of amazing okay so and hey ref a real quick on tennis and then i got to talk about fast time along here before you get to be dismissed here but hey ref wants to know what you think of the future of felix a j a la

seem, given his slow start in 2025, in the fact that he made it to the semifinals of the ATO finals this past weekend, but lost to Al-Corez. What's the future of Felix? Felix reminds me of the guy who's a really good ball player, pick your sport or hockey player, but not quite good enough for the Hall of Fame, but gets nominated, right? Oh, look at this. He's eligible for the Hall of... Felix is kind of like that guy.

He's just outside that, you know, and Sinner and Al-Corez. I mean, come on, this is, this is Nadal Federer. Right. This is like, you're not going to beat these guys for years. You're just not going to. You might have a chance. And so Felix is sort of in that, you know, group. Okay, it's great that you get to the final or the semi or whatever,

but can you really take these guys on? And he's just not good enough to beat these two guys. But is he good enough to be a top 10 player? He is. He's got to show more consistency. You know, he's won some of these lower level events and all that. I like watching him play. I do.

But, yeah, he does. doesn't, I don't know, he's a killer. Sinner is a killer. Alcarez is a killer out there. Really? These guys are just balls to the wall. There was one Grand Slam final. I can't remember which one,

but those two gentlemen that went, just kept going and going. It was so thrilling. It was. And you know what? You got, look, the greatest rivalries, to me,

mono imano are boxing and tennis. Right? Two people. One of one. Two people back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, right?

No one else to blame, you know, give hats off to your opponent if they beat you, I'll get you next time. The difference is that in boxing, usually you fight the same guy. If a remat, maybe three times, maybe four times.

Tennis, it's like every week, you again. Right. You're the one, I'm the two. I'm the two, you're the one again and the fight again. You again? Right. And shout out to Keith Stein. I was in his living room when I watched that El Correz

versus sinner and I just couldn't believe it. It was amazing. By the way, will Greg Brady have you on the 640 morning show to talk about your great new book? I don't think so. Why not, though? Your buds, and that's not a Rogers or a bail property? I don't know.

It's really hard to say. I'll be honest with you, I'm not holding out hope. I understand. Why would anyone in mainstream media want to interview me when I'm basically saying mainstream media is going down the tubes? Why would they? Mike, imagine interviewing someone who's saying podcasting will be dead. I would do that in a heartbeat.

Thanks for having me on the show, sir. By the way, your show will be a show in the next year. It's going down the tubes. Don't tell me with a good time. time. I mean, think of it. Here's the title. Imagine the editor's going, we got a book here called The Rise and Madness, the Rise and Ruined Sports Media. Let's get them on the air to talk about the ruin of sports media because essentially it could be madness, the rise and ruin of media. It doesn't have to be sports media because it's

sports media falls under the umbrella. Just because it's the toy store, it's still media. Right. And the eye and, you know, people are going to say, oh, come on, sports writing is not the same is news writing. Sports reporting isn't like news reporting. And they're right. They're right. Right. It's not life and death. It's sports. So yeah, it's not as serious. We try to make it to be serious. In our minds, it's very serious. This is sports. These are the people, the athletes, the people that cover them. But in real life, it's not. It's not as important, okay? We have to kind of understand that and take a step back. But basically all reporting, like you say with Trump, like it is, with Kearney, oh, I'm not answering questions.

What do you mean you're not answering questions? Can you imagine? You meant 20 years ago, a politician said, I'm not here. The media would be all over him. They'd attack the guy, saying, you have to answer these questions. And if he didn't, they would rip him a new one. Since we entered the realm of politics, your book opens with that great Wayne Swetsky story, which I had heard before, but it was great to get it, you know, in print,

and it was well told. And I'm just curious what you, Hebsie, think about Wayne Gretzky's relationship with Donald J. Trump and his silence while his buddy Trump was threatening our sovereignty. I think that similar to many other athletes and entertainers who would probably like to say something, but their area of expertise is not politics and they were told many times probably don't talk politics, don't talk religion. You're an athlete, basically stay in your lane.

And unfortunately, what's happened is that the word has gotten out more recently as to who supports who politically. And I have to tell you, never once did I care or know who Guy Lefleur supported when he was scoring all those goals for the Montreal Canadians. I don't recall ever a politician or a reporter saying, Guy, are you a party Quebecois supporter? Is liberal? No. because they didn't care. It didn't matter to them who this hockey player supported politically. The same way, nobody ever asked Brian Moroni, you know, who's your favorite football players?

It didn't matter. It's got nothing to do. Who cares? It's got nothing to do with it. And so, but now, Jack Nicholas supports Donald Trump, Bobby Orr supports Donald. Wayne Gretzky supports Donald. Oh, my God. They're not my heroes anymore.

Dude, take it easy. It's a golfer and a couple of hockey players. You know, Gretzky opened his door, though, when he publicly endorsed Stephen Harper for Prime Minister of Canada. Like, I absolutely remember. He did. And the other thing is, I don't know how that came about. Like, was he, I don't want, not coerced,

because I don't think Wayne Gretke could be coerced. But, but, but did he get some bad advice? Like, did someone say, maybe you shouldn't, you know, And was there that Canadian-American thing? Because it's always someone's going to go and say, well, Wayne, you know, your kids are born in America? Are you Canadian? Do you consider yourself Canadian?

And that's another thing. Do you consider yourself, when you wake up in the morning, Mike, do you consider yourself a father, a podcaster, a liberal? A cyclist? A cyclist? Yeah. Like, do you, is that your identity? My brain.

Right. Right. So let's. Everyone's got a brand now, Hebsy. You know that. Okay. So I'm actually closing this show. Of course, I'm not rushing you out.

I love talking to you, Hebsy, and I'm going to see it. TMLX 21, and we've got to get you back in 2026, of course, maybe multiple times. But I want to read, this is fast time Milan-Malon. We, for a period of time, you and I and fast-time Milan-Telsenia, we were kind of collecting in my backyard during COVID, and we would talk about sports media. I'm glad you wrote this book, but I'm just going to, I haven't even read these, by the way. They came in very late.

You're reading these unedited? Unedited, yeah. Well, everything's unedited, but this time I'm not even betting it. They could be asking about your shoe size here. 12 and a half. So we'll burn through this, like rapid fire here. I see he's got four things here. So Milan Telsania and he's a good guy.

Shout out to Fast Time Watch and Jewelry Repair. I've got to go visit him now that I'm living up in that part of the world too. I got to get him to TMX21. I don't know if he's committed yet. Future of TSN 1050 radio with Rogers dominating the sports ownership landscape. Oh, you've got to have it. You've got to have TSNR.

It can't go away. You've got to have some competition there. You've got to. Well, they've got a great afternoon show, first of all, Overdrive. They can move that to 10-10. Could they do that? Yeah. Well, they can.

They want to. Like, they could take the one successful show that we all know, Overdrive, and that could become the new afternoon drive on 10-10, and they could shudder 10-50. I guess they could, Mike. I don't know what to say. I never listened to 10-50 on the radio. I do watch Overdrive on TV on one of the TSN channels. if I'm around.

And I see the clips later. Right. Because they'll take the clips and they'll run it during their sports cast. Here's what the fellows on overdrive had to say about this issue. Right. And I get to see the guys on, usually on the panel too. I mean,

Noodles does the Ottawa games. He's on the panel occasionally, but O'Dog's on the panel all the time. Sure. And Hayes does Jay-on-Rate show. You know, Jay-on-Rite and Dan O-2, You had any contact of Dan lately. I did speak to Dan a while ago.

Was it speaking or was it texting? See, that's another thing. Yeah, what's the time? You can't remember. Like, you and I didn't speak, haven't spoken, but we've texted and whatever, back and forth a ton. Right. And there's another thing, too.

I asked this, Athalia, sure is. So I'm on a Zoom with her, because she's in the States. And I ask her, like, are we meeting each other right now? Like, I actually don't have an answer. Some people say, did you meet this person? I'm like, well, I had a 90-minute Zoom with them, but I didn't meet them. Like, and some people say, yeah, that's meeting them. I just, like, I personally think.

Like, I personally think it's got to be in person to meet somebody. Am I? What do you think? This is 2000. We're almost in 2026. I would say no. I would say today's definition of meeting someone is, um, is, yeah, that Zoom qualifies for it.

Okay. That would be, yeah. Then I also just met Rance Mullinix, but, uh, we'll hear that on one of my favorites. What a nice man. Terrific guy. Underrated baseball player. Only thought of as a platoon third baseman with Garth Orge. Like you couldn't think of me.

Man, Smolniks, without thinking of Garthorge. And that's unfair. Rance was a good ball player, man. And I think he might hold a record still for most pinch hit or something. He's got like a Toronto Blue Jays pin. He was a good clutch hitter. He was a good clutch hitter. Fan 590.

Does Hebsy still listen to the station? And what does he think of the current lineup? Here's who I listen to on Fan 590. J.D. Bunkus. He just made his Toronto Mike debut this past summer. That's who I listen to. The guys on the morning show occasionally, although I can't differentiate between Ben Ennis's voice and Gunning's voice.

And see, that's the other thing. I said, who is that talking? But J.D. Bunkus comes on at like 9 o'clock when I'm, you know, I'm heading to the gym or whatever. And he just talks by him. He just goes on by himself. He'll just, you know, random thoughts and just go. Before I know, he's been, he's the only guy talked for 10 minutes.

And, you know, he's a fan. He goes to the games. He lives and dies with the teams. He's not a journalist, right? He's not going into the locker room after the game. And as a reporter, he's an observer. And at first I was like, who is this guy? But now I like it because he's a fan.

He was feisty. You got to listen to the JD Bunkus episode of Toronto Mike. He was a little feisty, but it was entertaining. I can't remember, but it was this past summer. I met him at the book launch of Key, Matheson's Jay's book. That's where I met JD. I also met Caleb Joseph at that event and he was excited

to come on Toronto mic but he does not reply to my text messages so I don't know how to make that one happen but okay I'll do my best here. That's all I can do here. Oh yeah, Milan, again the Milan show here. A couple more real quick ones. With Rogers in control do you Hebsy continue to see less biased reporting

from the local media landscape? Well no, I mean, first of all it's in the book. It's all in the book. It's all in the book. The Rogers is probably the great the great example. And the book went to the publisher just as that deal was, you know,

that they were going to take, they're going to own 75% of MLSE and that they had just paid Vladdy half a billion dollars. And so, you know, all these expenses, and they up, they re-uped with the National Hockey League. So like, you know,

Rogers went on a spending spree there for a while. It went crazy. And so all that does is it just solidifies their position as the owner, operator of teams and media. Can I give you a fun fact here? So I don't know why I mentioned it three times by me because I just had the Zoom with her,

but Thalia sure is, your former colleague at Global. Her godfather is Nick Kiprios' father. That's right. That's exactly right, yes. But when you just said right now, you said, it's in the book. So I'm going to play a little bit of Nick Kiprio's. Just a little bit.

Mike, you can get all of those stories and more in a book that I wrote that will come out in October Simon and Schuster were kind enough to offer me a book deal yeah yeah and that's in the book too and you know

it's well documented in my book coming up yeah and that's in the book too it's a different one it's a good read in my book coming up on how I was able to turn it around. It's a pretty good ride in my book.

I think readers will enjoy it. That's good. Well, that's another one in my book, buddy. That's another one in my book. So now every time I hear a guest tell me it's in the book, I think of Nick Chippreos, okay? Last question from Milan, other than Rosie de Mano, Steve Simmons, and Cathal Kelly. Call Call Call Call Kelly. Am I saying it wrong?

Cahall Kelly. I've been saying wrong, okay The silent T I should know that I met him at Steve Buffery's retirement party Steve Bafferi

I'm kidding you get around a lot you were at wait you're at Buffery's retirement party I got invited right and you live but you live in the neighborhood too

which is yeah Mike lives nearby let's invite him they don't like bike lanes at the crooked cube that's what I've been told here and Bob Elliott and Dave Perkins

were here you know that was such a good listen that was such a good listen thank you Such a good listen. Those guys were, like, they were at every Jay's game. They followed the team. They wrote about them every day.

Yeah. It was good to reunite them. I was kind of assuming we might clinch that night. Never happened. Never happened. The rest is history. Okay. And maybe Gregor Chisholm, he points out from the start.

But who do you think Hebsy is still out there covering sports in the GTA that still speaks their mind? Huh. Huh. Yeah, the columnists are allowed to, right? So Simmons writes a column, he speaks his mind. Call Hall Kelly for sure speaks his mind. There is no affiliation. The globe has always been as distant as possible from the sports teams.

And that's good journalism. You want that. Other than that, I don't know. I'm trying to think. You know, you're mentioning guys that are no longer in the business. were the ones. They set the standard. They told it like it was. And their listeners and readers and viewers expected that. You see, that's the other thing is I've, I developed a reputation over the years. Excuse me, it was hard for me to tow the company line when I was doing Maple Leafs games or

Argos games when I knew deep down that the listener is going, come on, I'd sure say something. We know how you feel about this. Don't sugarcoat it. Right. And so I have to maintain that reputation and so I'm not saying that if I was working today and they said look you can't say those things or whatever you know that's like being you know like being castrated that's like you know you're being neutered you're being censored and so once you reach a certain stage where you people care about your opinion and they know you're going to speak to truth you know and you become a company man for lack of a better term and and not saying what people expect you to say then then you're in trouble then you got to write a book well you're

wrote a book. It's a great book. Madness, The Rise and Ruin of Sports Media by Mark Hebscher. And I'm glad you'll be at TMLX21. And I'm glad you're going to bring some books. If somebody wants one, that can happen at TMLX21 at Palma's Kitchen. When you wrote in the book that you had a boss at SportsNet that you hated so much, you said either he goes or I go. You didn't name that boss? Nope.

You're going to name this boss now? Nope. I had to take a shot. I thought I could weaken you in the 90th minute or whatever. No, I'm like, listen, people who were there, they know. Those who know, no. Oh, you also wrote another quote. It's a great book.

You're a good writer. You wrote this, right? This is an AI writing this book. Oh, boy, no. Gosh, no. I know. It's well written. And the audio book comes out November 25th.

You recorded an audio book. Yeah. How long did that take? Way too long. Because that was the hardest thing I've ever had to do. I'll never do it again. You could have just come over here and read the book on the mic, but no. I know, and I still can, Mike, you see.

We can turn it into a podcast, okay? Hebsy on sports, we could call it. Yeah. But one quote I liked, you said, there is never been a better time to be a sports fan, but there's never been a worse time to be a sports journalist. Yeah, sad but true. Because I'm not sure how much sports journalism there is left.

A lot of these cats we talk about are at the end of their careers almost. These people are Let's hope not Well let's hope not But I mean like How long is Steve Simmons And Rosie DeManno Going to be writing for us

And etc These are not I mean Chisholm's young But All this and more It's in the book It's in the book Hibsey thanks for dropping by man

I love this very much Say hi to Mike Richards And tell Mike Richards How we messed up the Raptors parade Okay I'll tell them that And Mike I'm looking forward To the 29th

With you and everyone At Palma Pass I haven't seen Anthony in a long time too and I really really looking forward to it and thank you for the well it's in the freezer it's in the freezer

don't leave without your palm pasta remember when I used to remember when I used to ride my bike and I couldn't fit the whole thing in the box in? Remember you'd stick it in my backpack? I do. Well now that they sell them in retail stores

like Longo is they come in like a retail package so you send my freezer waiting for you Hebsie we're going to take another photo by Toronto Tree as named by Dave Thomas and we'll get you back on the show Hebsy man if you want more Hebsy. There's a bunch of great Mark Hebshire episodes of Toronto Mike in the feed.

Check it out. By the way, speaking a great sports journalists who are on Toronto Mike, coming up very soon is the Top 100 Songs of 2025 as per Dave Hodge. Who's in the book? He's in the book. Boy, is he in the book, huh? Absolutely, absolutely.

And that brings us to the end of our 1,800 and first show, 1801, your favorite tequila. Tequila. Tequila. Tequila Sheila, okay. Go to Sheila Cops, they named the arena after her. I know, I know.

Go to Toronto Mike.com. Subdivisions. Is that Mark Daly from City TV saying subdivisions? Well, that's me. That's not him. That's me. You know, he lived across the street from my buddies, eh? Getty Lee? I did not know that. Yeah, he lived right across the street from two good friends of mine. I already played at the

York Racquet Club. He's a member. He's actually at the Inatt Manitue up near Perry Sound. He's got a place right next door to that tennis club. Let's get him on the program. We could try. Fast cars, Gino Vanelli. Okay. Much love to retro festive, Great Lakes

Brewery, Palma Pasta, Nick Iini's Kindling, Recycle My Electronics. com, Blue Sky Agency, and Ridley Funeral Home. See you all tomorrow. Guess who my guest is tomorrow? Andy Petrillo. No kidding. She's got a book. That's how you get these guests. And she's in the basement.

Tomorrow. Andy Petrillo. She was awesome on the hockey game last night. Thank you.