Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Mark Zwolinski: Toronto Mike'd Podcast Episode 1473

Episode Date: April 19, 2024

In this 1473rd episode of Toronto Mike'd, Mike chats with Mark Zwolinski about his career covering sports for the Toronto Star, John Kordic, inspiring colleagues and how he's enjoying retirement. Toronto Mike'd is proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, Ridley Funeral Home, The Advantaged Investor podcast from Raymond James Canada, The Yes, We Are Open podcast from Moneris, The Toronto Maple Leafs Baseball Team and RecycleMyElectronics.ca. If you would like to support the show, we do have partner opportunities available. Please email Toronto Mike at [e-mail]

Welcome to episode 1473 of Toronto Mic'd. Proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery. A fiercely independent craft brewery who believes in supporting communities, good times and brewing amazing beer. Order online for free local home delivery in the GTA. Palma Pasta. Enjoy the taste of fresh, homemade Italian pasta and entrees from Palma Pasta in Mississauga and Oakville. The Toronto Maple Leafs baseball team. The best baseball in the city

outside the dome. Join the club and purchase a membership today at mapleafsbaseball.com. Recyclemyelectronics.ca. Committing to our planet's future means properly recycling our electronics of the past. The Advantage Investor Podcast from Raymond James Canada – Valuable perspective for Canadian investors who want to remain knowledgeable, informed and focused on long-term success. Season 6 of Yes We Are Open – An award-winning Monaris podcast hosted by FOTM Al Gregor, and Redlee Funeral Home, pillars of the community since 1921. Today, making his Toronto Mike debut, it's actually his exit interview. It's Mark Zwolinski. Welcome, Mark.

Mark Zwolinski Thanks for having me, Mike. Looking forward to it. Mark Zwolinski Correct me if I'm wrong but you resisted my invitations in the past right? Am I misremembering? I feel like we had exchanges and I'm like you know I need to collect the whole set. I need all the Toronto Star Sports writers to drop by and you kind of resisted it but here you are so that's amazing. Well I'm not sure why I did it. I'm, you know, pretty naturally shy. I actually ghosted my own retirement party unintentionally. So, okay, what's that story? I was invited to the Steve Buffery retirement party. Like, I got my way in there and he sure didn't ghost that, but what? They were throwing you a party and

you didn't show? Yeah, generally we do a Christmas party around Christmas. This was post-Christmas on the 28th. I had unfortunately a very, shall we say, miserable Christmas day in a family thing. So I headed up north and you know where this is going now, I had no idea there was a Christmas party that was supposed to be my retirement party. So I'm sitting up north, I just want a way to get away from things and chill out. And on the 28th, I get a text from my good friend, Kevin McGran.

F-O-T-N, Kevin McGran. Yes. And he says, where the hell are you? And I says, what the hell do you mean? And he says, there's 70 people at the bar here. Oh my God. And, uh, you're not here and they had gifts and they make us, it's your retirement party. Yeah. Well, I was mortified. I was up at, uh, up in Wasega beach at, uh, at a place there and, uh,

I couldn't make it. And, uh, everybody had a good time because it was kind of like a Christmas party. But the word that went around afterwards is that I'm unique. So that's how I ghosted my own party. That's an amazing story. But I mean, in your defense, you don't know that's your party. No.

So you thought you were ghosting like a holiday party. Yeah, well, I'll admit something here too that I normally hosted, not hosted, but tried to put together Christmas parties for years at the start They kind of wane from a thing where there'd be 20 30 guys, you know Rick Matsumoto Allen Ryan Garth Woolsey all the the only goal of these names by the way Yeah, yeah, you know people I learned from and who helped me in in, you know years and years ago you know it kind of, like I said, Wayne filtered down from that to a gathering of six people.

Last year I stood and then sat and ate a bunch of appetizers by myself for three hours and nobody showed up. Oh my God. So I wasn't really going to come to this year's one. Just, you know, I'm afraid to say how to spite but right I Had no idea I had no idea and away we go There's a bunch of people there and and you know when when I caught up with them all again at a Leafs game I I certainly got the reverse ribbing on it

Well, at least you know, you're you're loved right? Cuz I mean if an asshole retires, there's no party with 70 people and gifts right because they might party without you intentionally like to celebrate that you're finally gone like ding-dong the witch is dead but you were you were beloved I you know I'm not one to pat myself in the back but that was really nice and we kind of made it up when I got on to the media wall of fame in Scotia Bank. We went out the night before and a bunch of people showed up and it was really nice. Again, you don't try and look for these things.

You don't want to stand in the spotlight long enough. You're just like a hockey player. It's all team, it's not the individual, but it was a nice moment for me. And, um, certainly a really memorable way to, uh, to sign off on 41 years in the business. 41 years. So the big question I have is like, when you get to cover sports for a living, like that sounds like a pretty cool gig.

Like why, I mean, 41 years is a good run, but why retire? Uh, do you want to enlighten us? Like why you decided to step away from the Toronto Star? Well? There's a good and bad side to it. I like anything else. I Mean, I'm 63 years old. I was gonna retire at 65, you know, they paid me to go away So so this is like a voluntary package like opportunity that you pounced on Yeah, cuz I mean David Schultz came over here. He was in a room with the Globe and Mail and then they they announced Voluntary packages and he leapt out of his seat. Apparently like he was giggling like he couldn't even like uh, Hide his joy that because he was so excited to waiting for one of those to come along

So were you kind of like oh if there's a good opportunity to cash out on my way out, like get one of those packages, I'll take it. You were in that mode. Well, I was, I wasn't interested. I wanted to work Tom 65. I probably would have worked a little longer. Um, unfortunately, you know, there's, there comes a time when, you know, you're not, it's not that you're not wanted. It's just that you're, you're an antique, right? And they're paying you a certain wage and they can pay a younger person half of that. Right? So you have to look at that. You have to look at the business and we all know that a newspapering isn't what it used

to be for a lot of reasons. It's still a fantastic piece of information, but it's competing with other places and other devices, other outlets. And again, you know, it's, you know, nobody picks up the paper to, you know, to read a, unless you have a major scoop, you're not going to read a newspaper for a game story anymore. So I kind of, you know, like I tell people my taste in music and then my taste in cars stopped after 1970. So I'm kind of an old school person here and I'm proud of that. But at the same time, you kind of realize it's not that you're a dinosaur, it's just

that it's time. There's a window and a couple of people in the union at the star said, you know, there's a sweet spot and this is it for you. You know, there may not be another sweet spot like this. You know, there may not be a newspaper in a couple of years. Who knows, right? So you know, my wife and I decided that this was the right thing to do.

You know, I don't think you're going to hear too many other sports writers or meet them who said they could spend 41 years in the same place Somehow I survived it. I don't know how myself but Well, we're gonna walk through it a little bit here. I'm gonna we're gonna find out but I gotta say How has retirement been treating you like any regrets? No, I'm I Can walk away from something in ten seconds and have no regrets and I could have spent a hundred years on it. I have I'm very fortunate in that I have a lot of passions drag racing, model railroading.

I'm president of the Toronto Model Railroad Club. It looks like you might lift a little bit. I do. I'm actually not going gonna mess with you. A lot of people think that but trust me It's just a shirt. I'm out of shape right now, but I will be in In shape shortly. So okay, you're getting there But okay congrats on retirement and it's nice that you get to ring your own bell, right? Like that least least you decided you always planned on 65 that an opportunity came up a couple years early You talked it out with your wife. You decided this at the time No regrets up a couple years early, you talked it out with your wife, you decided this at the time, no regrets, but there are a lot of people in your industry who won't get to like choose

their exit, like they're going to be called into a room and there's going to be someone there with a folder and there's going to be somebody from security or HR and they're going to be like, your time is up. Yeah, exactly. If there's a fortunate person out there, it's me. I said that in my little speech, not only that, I think we're really, really fortunate in Toronto to have, I don't know if it's underrated or unheralded, but an absolute superb sports writing and sports reporting group, industry here.

I was part of that and they helped me. I said to them, you know, one of the biggest reasons I'm up on this wall of, you know, the media wall is because of you. You know, when I slip or when I started in this business, you know, my editors would tell me I was illiterate, you know? So I looked at the people who did it well and they were younger than me and they were older than me and they were my same age, but it was like my net, you know? And so not only am I fortunate to have a chance to spend that much time

and then a chance and an opportunity to say when I could go, but I worked with, you know, in the, in the real gratuity years of the business with people who, you know, I could never replace in my life. I couldn't have asked for a, you know, a better gift of a career that way. Well as we walk through it you're gonna shout out more names of people who are there. You got there in 1984 right? I'm talking about the Toronto Star you know newsroom. Actually I was in there in 81. I remember going down I was in York University after my minor league baseball career with the Mets. Which we're going to talk about because I got questions.

So I was actually afraid to become a journalist. I was at York University and it took me a year before I'd walk into the Excalibur newspaper there, but fortunately there was a silver lining to that because in that year I walked in Paula Todd was the editor and she sent me down to the star Paula's one of the top journalists in Canada. I'm sure people know of her and Shout out to Steve Bacon. Yeah. Yes. Yes indeed. I I went in and Paul Warnick god rest his soul was the editor back then one of about 12 or 13 I've in and Paul Warnick, God Rest His Soul, was the editor back then, one of about 12 or 13 I've had.

And I gave him a story on some soccer player at York University who was terrific and he turned it down. But he said, come back again. So the next time I came, I had my nice little cheap suit on and polished shoes. I rode the subway down to the star, very nervous. And I handed him a story on Brent Gretzky, Wayne's brother, and he took it. And I took the subway home and it was like I was flying. It was the first story that ever and that was in the 81 or 81. And so that was it. I started from there. They had openings for freelancers

as they're called that. I don't even think that exists anymore. But that's how it started. And again, it does exist, but it's for people like you know, okay, it's for you guys who spent 41 years at the star, you can come back and like, like Damien Cox style and write pieces freelance. Yeah, absolutely. There's that. And but that's how I started. And was interesting and there was room for it too. And that this is something that it kind of weighs a little heavy on your heart because you want to leave like listen to Marie Philippe-Poulin saying about women's hockey. She's ready to probably in a few years ready to leave and what she said really meant a lot to me

Was that she wants to leave hockey in a better place than what she started? I have always thought that myself that you know, you could set it up or at least be part of something You know be a brick in the wall Pink Floyd, yeah So, but I don't know if I can actually say that. When you start, when you walk in, when you file that first piece there on Brank Gradsky or whatever, you have no inkling that the internet is coming.

No. Like the greatest disruptor of this generation, one of the greatest disruptors of all time after maybe the development of the printing press, okay, is the internet. It changes everything. And one of the industries that got smacked particularly hard by the internet is newspapers. Yeah. Well, here's something for you that how I, you know, how it was in 81.

Oh, how good. Okay. So I want to know how it was in 81. And I want to know, like basically, who is there? I want to know everything about your start at the start, but can we start? You played pro baseball. Yes. Okay. I just had Rob Butler here and I realized, Oh, Rob Butler's only this. I think this actually, I don't know about pro because, uh, did Fergie Oliver play pro baseball? Um, maybe I can't remember. Okay. Anyway, so, but, but bottom line is, so Rob Butler's here and I'm like, oh my God, like how has it taken me so long to get a blue J here? Like there's a guy,

you know, won the world series in 93 and he manages now the Toronto Maple Leafs baseball team, which I'll get back to in a minute. But then Tyler was on the show and he's like, oh, you know, he's not your first major league baseball player because Joe Siddles been over and I'm like, that's right. Joe played pro ball, of course. Now you never made the big show in Bull Durham. Like you didn't make the show, right? But you played in the minors. So can you just give us a little vibe? I'm not sure if everybody knows this,

that you played pro baseball for a couple of years in the New York Mets organization, right? Yes, yes, I used to play out of Keelsdale with York Legion and then York in the old LaBats League or whatever it was called back then. It was just like a senior league. There's junior and senior, but yeah, I got noticed by Dr. Ron Taylor, who, you know, as people know, pitched with the Mets in the sixties and went down to Little

Falls, New York and then in Florida. Didn't make it, wasn't good enough. That's the bottom line, you can make all the excuses you want, but in the end, you know, are you good enough? So you're not drafted, right? But you're undrafted, but you sign as like a walk-on or a free agent?

How did it work? You sign a pro contract, didn't make any bonus or anything. They just said, you want to play, come down and play. Like I wasn't, you know, I was some kid from, from Toronto, Canada, which you were the other kid from Kiel street. Yeah, it was, but you know, you go down to spring training and somebody asks you, you know, what street is Toronto on?

Right. So they don't really know you. You're, you're nobody. I mean, you know, Billy Bean was there. JP, Richardi was there. They were teammates. That's a big names. Yeah, they were teammates and you know, Billy, I

think at that time was a second round pick and, uh, his bonus was 250 grand, which to us was, you know, amazing. And we used to, it was down, spring training was down in St. Pete's and we'd walk a couple of us over to, uh, cause we weren't allowed anywhere near the LAang Stadium, which is where the pros played,

but we'd walk by there and there'd be a big red tarp on the fence, a black tarp on the fence. And we'd look through the hole in the tarp and we'd see Lee Mazzilli get out of a black Corvette. And that was- Future Blue Jay. Yeah, that was like, I, they said, that's Lee Mazzilli. And I said, okay, I think I know who that is, but I loved his black Corvette better. So again,

you were, you're a bit, you met, as you mentioned earlier, you're like a gear head, like you're, you're a big car guy, right? Absolutely. Runs in the family. I'm doing a lot of it now. Oh, you know, I'm helping an old hot rod friend restore a couple of 1929 model A's right now. Who does this? Blaine Schmidt does this in Aaron, Ontario. Yes. You become a bud and shout out to the Argos. We'll get back to them later. I got a question for you about the Toronto Argonauts.

But so you have a couple years playing pro ball for the New York Mets in the minor leagues. And then what happens when that doesn't work out and you come back to Toronto here? Is it just that you want to stay involved with sports? Like where is that moment where you realize you'd like to be a sports reporter? Well there wasn't a moment, it was more of a fallout from sitting in the basement with my then girlfriend Iris in the basement of my parents place and saying you know basically what the H am I gonna do? Right. You know I wanted to be a teacher but I didn't want to go back to school. So I did

go back to school and studied English literature and poetry. And I wasn't really going to go anywhere with that other than I really enjoyed it. That kind of lit a fuse in my writing career though I was a terrible writer then. But we kind of, like I said, went into the, into the Excalibur and that changed everything. And I didn't know what to do. I still was, you know, talking with my with my now wife, Iris, about what what are we going to do really, you know, I'm going to be what, you know, sitting for the rest of my life in my in my mom's basement, you know, not paying her

anything and not having a job other than in summer jobs But that that turned into that door after a year of having too many nerves to actually go through that door I still remember that and it's absolutely crazy, but It turned out everything went uphill from there and I got a break with that That Brent Gretzky story and away we went. Away you went. Okay, so when you get to the Toronto Star, paint the picture for me. I'm trying to do a compare and contrast. Like in the early 80s, what is the Toronto Star sports newsroom like versus maybe today? And also, who was there? Because I grew up reading the stars. So it's like, okay, you got Milt Dunnell, you got, you know, Randy Starkman on Monday, Mary Wormsby is here. Like, these are these legends,

right? Like maybe let's hear from you. Who are your mentors there? Who was in the building? How many people were in the sports department back then? Paint a picture for me, man. Well, first of all, you go in and it's much, much more populated than it is now. I think the Star probably has five live writers, including columnists now. Back then you had 15 to 20 people on the sports desk, three of them handling hockey, three of them handling baseball, and they're all ex-writers who probably knew more about it than a young 20-something reporter did. But you could walk in and Jim Proudfoot would be on his underwood, you know

typing with one finger and then the phone would ring and everybody knows this in the star knows the story how Jim Hated when the phone would ring but he'd be the first to answer it when it rang I guess cuz he didn't want to hear it He wanted to focus on his stories and somebody would say hey Can I report a high school score and he says fine and he'd slam put whole button, slam the thing down, and everybody just know that's Jim. But Milt was there. But the crazy thing back then, it wasn't, you know, like Wayne Parrish, one of the top, well, at that time,

you know, Wayne's moved on to other things, and he's, you know, still one of the legendary columnists. But he was young back then, and you would not, you know, the top right column in the sports page was Milt's domain, right? Like, you know, you don't touch that stuff, but Wayne was in there and Wayne was that good. You know, I looked up, I didn't even want to approach him. He was, you know, just, everybody in there seemed like God.

You know, Rick Matsumoto, Rick Fraser, Frank Orr, Mary Onesby was at the Sun back then and she came over later, but sports editors, they had the power to just dial up Harold Ballard, what the hell's going on, why didn't we get this? There was a lot more of that, traditional barnstorming journalism place was loud. When I was freelancing, I wasn't allowed

actually to come into the star and physically type my story. So one of the first assignments I had was covering the Marley's in the last years of Ballard's ownership. So I had a 1972 Toyota with the holes in the floor they They made, I had to physically write out my story on an old piece of, I guess they called it full scap. Right. Tried to make it as legible as possible and the heater wasn't working in my Toyota, so my fingers were freezing. Then I'd walk into the store all proud that I had like one page

of a Marley's game. They would curl the paper up into like a tube shape put it in In a glass kind of container send it in a 10 system that rattled The piping overhead rattle and it would go out to the copy editors and they would they would type it into the system Then and then they'd give me the go-ahead so I could go home but you know, you weren't allowed to use the equipment back then. But I'd sat in the office and made friends with people. One thing about Milt, there was two people that Muhammad Ali apparently would call back

in the sports world. One was Howard Cosell and one was Milt Dunnell. Wow. And I could remember him just sitting there and Milt was very quiet a lot, right? Like he, he watched everybody and everything. And then he, you know, he, he would talk to people, but mostly he sat and watched.

And that's what I, what I remember most about him is that, and Jim was the same way that they'd watch and see what everybody else is doing. And then they'd get the killer story and Milt would get a call back late at night from Harold and Harold would rail on about something and Milt would calm him down. And Milt had that power, Frank Orr had that power.

When you walk into a press box, Bobby Clark, then with Philadelphia, come up and shake his hand. And I said, Christ, that's Bobby Clark. That's like 1972 Summit series. That's you know, Summit series, that's, that's Bobby Clark, you know, Broad Street bullies coming up out of nowhere to shake Frank's hand. And they would just chat and you know, Frank had me under his wing a little bit back then. And it was like, I said, I don't even know what I'm doing here. You know, like the, like I said, everybody was like a journalist god back then.

Did you have like an imposter syndrome or anything of that nature? I don't know about that. I was just naturally shy. And I just, it's not a question of whether you think you belong or not. It's just like, holy cow. It's just like, these are the people you were reading, like the year before when you weren't working, you were reading these folks in the paper trying to study how they wrote, how they approached game stories. There was structure to it, right? That was all new and it was very, you were very nervous about that, very, very nervous and you wore good clothes. And I remember Dave Perkins telling me, you know, you're representing the star.

Paula told me the same thing. You look your best, you dress for success type thing. Never ever, ever go in and represent the company underdressed or anything but your best self. Put it forward. It stuck with me and of course, a lot of that's disintegrated because back then you went and made believe garden's press box,

everybody was in a suit or had a tie and blazer and a jacket. So when does that change? Like when, when does that, like is it a slow transition or because I would say late 90s, early 2000s. So when they leave Maple Leaf Gardens, maybe. Yeah, yeah. I think that probably you're right, Mike, that it went out the door, you know, when, when the gardens went out the door and not so much this, you know, there's still people who dress up and, you know, the young kids, you know, especially on TV, they, you know, they have to look good and they do. And I admire a lot of them on Sportsnet and TSN, how hard they work, you know, and they look great every day.

And I tip a hat to that because I'm one of the people who I still dressed up, but I didn't wear a suit anymore. I didn't have my jacket on, like, you know, especially in the summer, you just come with something light on and sometimes jeans, you know, I always tried to stay away from jeans, but you know, you let that slip too. So you know, they made a decision, no more Paul Morris, no more suits. Like this was the decision made. Yes.

Yes. And again, things change, right? But, uh, it became a much more relaxed, um, and you know, it's a type of thing that, yeah, but Dave Perkins always told me, don't let that happen. Don't, he always told me a couple of other things. When you're in baseball, score the game right to the last out, because if you miss something, you can go back and check it. Make sure you have it. Don't rely on the internet. Don't rely on anything else. You have it. And that was very valuable because a couple of times, if you're looking at, say, reporting on Roy Halliday,

how many walks do you do? How many pitches do you throw? You were writing that down. If you're looking at, say, reporting on Roy Halliday, how many walks do you do, how many pitches do you throw? You were writing that down. And back then, that information wasn't, you know, like right at your fingertips like it is today. So there was value in all that stuff and the traditions and the advice and just the strict discipline was something that would stick with you as you grew up. So these veterans, although Perkins is not that much older than you, right? Like I'm just doing

some math in my head, unless I've underestimated Dave's age. But these guys who are there kind of teach you the ways, but did you pass that on? Like so as younger journalists enter the door at One Young Street there, did you guys, you know, you mentor them and kind of teach them this is the ways, pass that on? Absolutely. Like I have a good reputation for that. And then, um, you know, people remember that. And they always said you were the one that people was kind to me when I started. And it wasn't so much having to show them the ways I always said, if you ever want help with anything like that, but it was more like, come on in here. Do you need a phone number with anything? You know, if they, if they were sitting there, you know, some, you know, they didn't have a phone number to a player or to an executive, I would try and

help with that. Um, just you, here's, here's the quickest way through, uh, the media gate to get to the blue jays dressing room or here's an, another elevator you could use to avoid the crowd. Any little detail like that. And good old days when you could do that. That must be disconcerting that you had this era where you mentioned, you know, Ballard's going to call you back or whatever. Milt would get Mohammed Ali to call him back, okay? Today, how many layers of PR and control? I mean you can't just call up Nylander and ask him about whatever. It's not the same, right?

It's so controlled. No, the last real kind of access, I guess you would call it, that I had like that was back in when JP and Silvia was the Blue Jays catcher. We still traveled with the team a little bit back then. And that's where, it's just familiarity, right? Like Joe Carter wouldn't talk to rookie reporters, right? Um, he would talk to them in a scrum, but he wouldn't really talk to them one on one.

He just had a basic, like a loose rule. Wasn't, he wasn't rude about it, but he's like, you know, you know, take your hits, you know, serve, you know, um, pay your dues. And he would talk to you later on. But I had a story on him when I was, I think a rookie, not so much a rookie, but in my first or second year, that he had after his home run, he had an invite from Bill Clinton to jog in Washington.

And when the Jays were playing Baltimore, Joe went and did that. And I, you know, I don't like to use the word scoop, but I actually was the only one who had it. And he was really- Well, that's a scoop. Yeah, he was really ticked off that anybody knew about that.

But he gave me the time of day and I earned his respect after that. So that's how some of those things happen. And, you know, meeting Michael Michael Jordan the same thing was very very oh it was totally like in his final is when when the Raptors were still playing out of the dome and Postgame Michael wasn't really talking to reporters It was his final years, you know Unless there was something big that they needed to talk about but he didn't talk all the time, right?

I had no idea went into the postgame bulls dressing room and years, you know, unless there was something big that they needed to talk about, but he didn't talk all the time. I had no idea. I went into the postgame bulls dressing room and I looked for him and he was in the back corner. I remember him. He had one foot up on a stool. He was tying his shoes up. He had the most beautiful white shirt I'd ever seen.

And I've mentioned this story to a couple of people before, but I was, I didn't know whether to talk to him or look at that shirt. It was, it was just incredible. It's a hell of a shirt. And I went up with a very, um, nervous and shy voice. Oh, Mr. Jordan, do you have a minute to talk to me? And he didn't look at me and I go, Oh, okay.

I'm sorry. I'll, I'll, I'll try some other time. And he turned around and said, Hey kid, sure. What do you want? And I talked to him for 10 minutes and it wasn't anything special. And after I left, and after I said thanks and everything and shook his hand, all the other beat reporters came up to me and said, what the hell are you doing?

How did you do that? Like, what did he say to you? I had no idea what they were talking about. It was just, you know, like I hadn't, I somehow just innocented myself into it or fluked off. Ignorance is bliss. Oh, it was bliss back then. But anyways, well you know, Mark, like 10 minutes, one-on-one with Jordan back then, you can turn that into a mini series now. Like that could be a book. Okay.

This is, you know, my 10 minutes with Mike, with Mike, I think that's the title of this book. Actually, I couldn't even remember some of the questions. I imagine they were extremely, whatever. Didn't Perk tell you to take good notes? Come on, come on, I bet you got that notebook somewhere. But okay, amazing, I just want to shout out the fact that I will be having Joe Carter on this program in June. And this was arranged thanks to FOTM Rod Black.

See, this is how it works, Mark. Now that you're an FOTM, a friend of Toronto Mike, we got to scratch each other's backs, okay? This is how it works. So I am looking forward to getting Joe Carter on these. That'll be fantastic. Touch them all, Joe. I got questions for Joe. And that's a great, that's scoop. How'd you get the scoop? Like did somebody in the detail at the Bill Clinton's detail call you like deep throat and follow the jogging.

I actually, I believe, got it from, oh, I can't remember his name. He was Mark Stephanopoulos. No, it was one of his best friends. Oh, George, it's not even a Mark, it's a George. He was with the Tigers and then he played with the Blue Jays. Otis Nixon.

Oh yeah. Clinton Mike Timlin, come on here. He had mentioned it and you know sometimes if you hang around like it was Gary Roberts used to be like this like he'd see us reporters standing around a lot of us were like standing around just you know thinking what the hell are we going to do who are we going to ask and you know they just had a loss or something and it was a practice the next day and they're getting you know really ground into the ground but Gary would come up and tap you on the shoulder and say hey did you notice Ty Domey got on the second line and you know just like a little tip yeah

did he like you Pat Henkin was like that. Darcy Tucker, fantastic. Like they knew, once they knew you and you were around, like you could talk, like they'd almost talk journalism to you instead of you talking hockey to them. You know, it was really cool. Well, have you noticed, I'm sure you have, cause you're in the business. Who am I talking to? I'm not gonna mansplain this to you,

but there is a breaking news out of Blue Jays organization almost always coming from the USA. Like the number of scoops from Sportsnet people are you can count it like there's so few all these scoops are coming from whatever ESPN guys or the whatever American reporters I it's in this day and age I don't it's because of the access right like you can't I don't know who will I pick on here but you know Gregor Chisholm can't buddy up to somebody the way that you you know, a Bob Elliott would buddy up to a Blue Jay and have those private chats where, you know, that doesn't exist anymore.

It does. And it doesn't not as say, not so much prevalent, but you knew who had inside scoops, right? Right. Like Gary Fraley, God rest his soul, the Dallas Morning News, had an in with George Bush because George Bush was an owner of the Texas Rangers. And when George was president, he came up into the press box or was walking up through the stairway to the press box

and he looks over and I was sitting with Jerry or just standing there talking to him. He goes, Frales! And he waves the peace sign to him and frails goes back, W how the hell are you? Right, so I mean, that just doesn't, it doesn't work that way anymore. You don't get access. The message is controlled a lot more these days.

Right. You know, PR staffs are, you know, they PR the players. You know, but I'm fairly certain that there are a number of, you know, people not outside, you know, the so-called insiders who work very hard and have a lot of access, you know, they get calls from players, Batman and whoever, because, you know, they want a certain message out or they just have respect for them. But some of the beat writers will have players they can call. You know, I'm not gonna give those contacts away but... Where's that Rolodex? I need it. Yeah, you can still do it but it isn't like like during practice, right? Like you used to come in and the guys were

taking their equipment off so you could just go and it still does it that way. But like after games for instance that dressing room is empty then they bring certain players out and you'll be lucky to get you know right like like in these last say 10 years where game stories you know are insignificant because of social media your editors would tell you who's everybody talking to if they're all talking to Austin Matthews or they're talking to Matt Sandeen or whoever, you go talk to the guy in the corner and make a story out of that. Yeah, what a different time, but my goodness gracious. So you live the the best years I'd say, you had a good run. I have a few questions here, you dropped a lot there, but one as you mentioned like today, the Toronto Star

date, so what was your last day at the Toronto Star? November 3rd. That far ago. Took you a long time to get in here for your exit interview. It's April, man. You're supposed to come here. You're supposed to do what Cam Woolley did, okay? He did a final shift on CP24 and then he drove here and we sat down and talked about his career as a cop and as a... He's cool too.

I've met him several times. You know, you're a car guy, but that's how he got into the media business was cars like cop cars and stuff. Yeah he was he was very much if I remember correctly warning about street racing and a lot of stuff that we used to do in the day over in Finch and Western Road and then there was this so called King of the 407 which I didn't get of, but by then cars wouldn't do drag racing on the street. They would do roll racing where they'd start from 60 or 80 or a hundred kilometers an hour in the first to 300 or first to 150.

So they would roll race on, you know, 2000 horsepower GTRs and 1500 horsepower Mustangs that were, you know, probably cost three, 400 grand to get that way. And there was a lot of money involved and that got busted up too, but Cam would warn against all that stuff, right? Hearing you talk, it's almost like a different language. I'm following enough of it to kind of keep up, but I'm thinking, oh, I remember now when I owned a car,

I drove a 99 Mazda Protege for 21 years. I was lucky, if I got it to 140, that was a good day for the master. Well things are the car scene is off the charts these days and actually grassroots drag racing is now the guys who started something maybe 15 years ago called pinks are now on Discovery Channel with Street Outlaws and they're multi-millionaires off of it and they're just street level guys. Well now now that you're retired, this is a podcast, right? Your passion car, you could do the some kind of a drag race and podcast. This is the future of Mark's Wednesday. Okay. I got a question

though. You dropped a few things. So, and then I have some gifts for you and then I have many more questions. You're my kind of my prisoner for the next several hours, Mark. It's all right. Okay. It's raining outside. What are you going to do? Right? So you'd mentioned today's. So when you left the star in November, 2023, I think you said that there were like five writers, like active sports writers at the Toronto star. Is that what you said? Yes. Can you name them? I think maybe I take a guess at this. Like Gregor Chisholm writes, yes, he was here with Keegan Matheson, his maritime buddy,

great guys. Great. Yeah. Fantas. Well, maritime is they're almost all great. Absolutely can't go wrong cannot go wrong your Toronto guy, right? Yes, he'd from Keele Street to part two shout out to FOTM Leo Rodin's but we have Gregor Chisholm Mike Willner cover it writes for the Toronto Star Baseball is yes five. Okay, so Chisholm and Willner. Okay, Kevin McGran He's a great FOTM there. Okay Okay. Now Dave Fest check. He can't, he's in there. Okay. So that's like four. So, but then I don't even know if he's a sports guy anymore. What's the status of FOTM Bruce Arthur? Well, Bruce, um, we'll probably swing in when sports gets serious, like Stanley cop, uh, cause he's on like the COVID beat. Is he? Yes. Yes. Bruce is such a, a, a strong, um, uh,

presence and personality and absolutely, you know, one of the finest writers in the country that I guess the paper felt during COVID that they need, they threw everything, right? That beat was something that the star wanted to own. Right. And I was even on that beat for a while and that shows you I miss I miss Argos football. Yeah, but Bruce As he does with everything dove into it and and came out, you know with the real goods

You know He he went into every single corner and nook talked to every single doctor in person and and you know He became one of the leading voices at the star and perhaps in the country with this on that very very important beat. So we don't count him as one of the five because he's he only yeah right for big stories he'll pop in but I will say you know Bruce is doing a good job because there's a correlation between the number of death threats you receive on social media yes the job you're doing the success I've received them myself actually. It's a different time, right?

Doug Smith does the wrapping. F-O-T-M Doug Smith. And the type of thing is though, like, you know, back like, again, when we started, I would do sidebars, right? And there would be two beat writers and a columnist or two during the playoffs. And we'd all travel together. That doesn't exist anymore. We would write game stories off the TV, which is quite frankly to me, just not something I signed up for when I signed up.

But that's it. Like Kevin works extremely hard as the dedicated beat writer. Now we have a young lad, Mark Coley, who came as an intern but is extremely good, extremely talented, and I hope to heck that they hire him and just give an added body that who can cover a bunch of things. Well they lost a body in Mark Zulinski. Well that's it, and I heard about that too.

Among the congratulations was also their flip side, you're really leaving us at the wrong time here. But that's the business these days, right? So consequently- But that's kind of amazing. Like, I'm just, as a guy who throughout the 80s would read, and you mentioned Mil Denel and Frank Orr and Wayne Parrish, And of course, eventually Damien Cox shows up and all these guys that we were reading, the Toronto Star.

It's kind of amazing to think of Thess Chuk who politely declined his invitation to come on Toronto Mic. I met him at the Steve Buffery retirement party I alluded to earlier. But Gregor Chisholm has been over a couple of times. Mike Wilner, who's been over many times. Kevin McGran, who's been over.

Bruce Arthur's been over. Doug Smith has been on. One woman who did politely say she was a print gal and didn't want to do a podcast Who does step in for bigger sports stories is Rosie DeMano? What's Rosie like? Rosie's fantastic like Rosie's sitting down. You're you're going to be speaking with a piece of history right like Rosie's I think the only other Right? Like Rosie's, I think the only other person at the star who'd been there longer than I have been. I may be wrong at that,

but there's probably two or three of us left. I'm not left anymore, I'm gone. But Rosie started in the seventies, right? Like Rosie has done everything that a journalist can do. One of the most fascinating things I ever watched her write on was she went into the middle of the Pacific Ocean for the millennium, for the turn of 2000, from 99 to 2000, to be the first person who reported on the change of the century. And that's fantastic. And what

a great, you know, there's no way that would be accepted anymore for, you know, like in terms of an expense. Yeah, you'd have to pay your own way now. Which, yeah, and you'd probably have to leave about two weeks in advance. Hey, do you have that option? Let me ask you this. So Kevin McGran, I'm gonna, I don't know the answer. Maybe you know, because you're still fresh, only recently retired, but Kevin's in Boston for game one, right? Yes. Okay. Now, let's say in some alternate universe where they don't send Kevin to Boston, can

he just pay his own way to Boston? Like they wouldn't care if he did that, would they? Mike, you touch on an absolute vital, vital point about the future, the present and the future of journalism. You look at, you say you pay your own way. Well, that's another way of saying you're investing in yourself because, you know, the sun doesn't send people. The star only sends people the East Coast thing, East Coast timelines. Basically New York is something that's cheap to travel to. Right. And you have to spend a long time finding the cheapest lights in the cheapest rooms. So a person like David Alter bet on himself. He goes to every single game. If he gets money

now, you know, I think he's with the hockey news now, but he, you know, last year he went to every single game out of his own pocket and then splashed everything he could on his devices on his, on his presence, you know, on his writing and everything he could do. And he came out ahead. That's how, you know, we have to talk to journalists and that's I'd tell them, bet on yourself. Bet on yourself and Alter's a regular on this program. Also a massive fan of U2's discotheque. Now you said you stopped listening to music

in 1970 or something, like quickly, we're gonna go over the place. I have an interesting Ed Keenan anecdote, I almost called it the antidote. That's something else, anecdotes, yeah, that's why. I'm mainly interesting Ed Keenan and an anecdote. I almost called it the antidote. That's something else. Anecdotes. Yeah, that's why I'm the only guy myself. We only had antidote for the anecdote. Okay, but David Alter loves his discotheque and I rib him about that all the time because as you choose a fine band and I love a lot of YouTube, but discotheque is not very high on my list

of greatest U2 songs. But what are your bands? Like what's your jams? Led Zeppelin one album. Woke up this morning, found myself dead, Jimi Hendrix, my absolute probably favorite ball and chain Janis Joplin. I'm, you know, I would get all emotional about Janis Joplin. Missed and couldn't get

into the 50th anniversary of Woodstock. Uh, my wife and I really wanted to, but that was, you had to be so much That was a shit storm too. Uh, as I, that's the one with a Limp Bizkit break stuff. Yeah, that was, there was three Woodstocks, but, um, the 69 one, the original one, you know, that was the 50th anniversary of that two years ago. And uh, I now in my retirement, that's something I want to do. Um, let's go visit that and visit, you know, like not reminisce about, you

know, the 99 one where they burned the place. Yeah. Sorry. I got my, uh, reunions mixed up. No, no, not at all. It's just, there was three of them. They, uh, they didn't make money on the 69. They tried again.

I think it was 94. 94 had a big one. And they said to themselves, we're going to do one more after that because we're not making them, you know, like nowadays you can make money off it. Like, you know, we see all the bottled water is 12 bucks. Well, that's what caused the riot in 99 was bottle of water. Back then they were charging seven and eight dollars and it was blistering hot and it went from there the kids got absolutely PO'd and they start you know with some encouragement from start to break stuff

yeah and then it turned into a wildfire literally well I think right out chili peppers they cover Jimi Hendrix fire and just to like it felt like I mean they cover that for Mother's Milk but again, but again, my favorite red show, but all the place one day you got to come back and kick out the jams with me, man. Like just come here. We play your 10 favorite songs of all time. We talk about it, but quick. Ed Keenan comes on every quarter and sits right there and we chat about what's going on in Toronto. Love that guy. But he was saying, okay, there was an idea for a podcast at Toronto star. Maybe it happened,

but like the best player to reach to, to where each number. Yeah. Okay. A whole thing on that. Okay. So then Ed was telling me that, uh, they thought you'd want to be a part of it post retirement, but you were like, no, I'm out. Like you tap. They're like, no, the minute you weren't on the payroll anymore, you weren't going to do that. Like you were gone and it's just, you know, it's one of those things where he's like, he thought for sure you'd, you know, for, for like love of the game, you'd want to be a part of that. But you know, when you retired, you know, it's one of those things where he's like, he thought for sure you'd, you know, for, for like love of the game, you'd want to be a part of that. But you know, when you retired, you retired. Yeah.

Well, I, um, it, it, it's kind of weird because when you retire and you put that much time into it, I spent more time with covering sports and with people and, and, and at the paper and writers than I did with my wife wife who I'll have my 44th anniversary with May 3rd, this coming May 3rd. So you think about that and you think about, you know, like you have your speech and that's your moment, the light's on you and you bite a hole in your lip trying not to be tearful and it's very difficult.

And you think after all of that, after that weight, you know, like If somebody was to say, you know, like paint a picture of your life or say something about your life That's what you'd have to mention that you can then in turn Walk away from it without wanting to do anything more. I don't know. You know, I'm still struggling with that and Basically what I can tell you is I'm of the mind that one and first and foremost, and you've heard me say this and many people have that I'm one of the most fortunate sports writers ever. I really believe that. But at the same time, I never wanted to, you know, like, like when Wayne Gretzky retired at 39, he probably could have,

and I'm not trying to make that analogy, but it just came to mind. He didn't want to skate anymore and not, and just be a, you know, a sideshow that, you know, that's Wayne Gretzky and there is the great one at 44 and 45 still playing. So I'd said, and I wasn't using that as an influence, but it just, like I said, it just came to mind, but it's, it's a parallel in that it's time and it's time now. Mark Coley has a chance to do, and he's, he's a fantastic writer and a fantastic kid from what I understand. That's a name, you know, like, like to look at and let's see what he can do. Let's let's give him the opportunity.

So if I come back or I wanna do this or I wanna, you know, there was a couple of, the Pat Hickey, Montreal Gazette, you know, had as much time in the business as I've had, and I think even more, but he retired specifically to give a young player, a young writer a place to write. And, you know, that's very gracious, but that also came to mind. I know Pat well, and he's a fantastic person,

you know, a person you would love to talk to about all this, you know, if you have anything in Montreal, that man knows it and lived it. So that's kind of like one of the influences that really had a weight with me in that, make it clean, get out of the way basically and see what happens, because as tough as it is in journalism, especially for print, there is a future developing,

there's something, it's gonna rise again and has to, as a professional, unless they pull the plug on print media and just go digital, but even so, there's the next wave of people who are going to take it somewhere that's going to be fascinating to see. I love that sentiment and that's very noble of you and excellent, except be warned here, Mark, be warned. Okay. I have witnessed over my many years having this podcast, I've witnessed not with the Toronto Star necessarily, but I'll pick on the Toronto Sun for a minute. I've seen retirements and nobody comes in to fill the void.

Okay. So no Bob Elliott, Steve Buffery, I could run down other greats in the sports department who are gone, but who's the youngest guy there? Ryan Wollstatt? Oh, he's my age. Okay. Yeah. Well, that's it.

And, and nobody's hiring. That's the thing. They're interns are easy to do. You can turn them over. Yeah. Freelancers or. Yeah, well, like for an intern, you pay them 13 grand every four months, right?

Like that's sad. Yeah. Because not so much that they're not gonna get an opportunity, but there just doesn't appear to be a career. But try to live in this city unless your parents are gonna help you, right? You can't live in the city of Toronto for that money. Yeah, well, especially on journalism money, like the way it is now, you can't live in the city of Toronto for that money. Yeah. Well, especially on journalism money like the way it is now

You know, I always remember trying to help writers from Humber from Seneca From then Ryerson right and other writers would tell me like, you know, some of them are teachers, right? I Said so what do you tell these kids and And they said, well, these kids come up to me, they ask me a bunch of questions about all the future. How do I do, how do I get started in this business? And the answer to them was,

go back to school and become a lawyer. You know, I mean, it's so difficult. And I feel really terrible about that. But I do believe that as tough as it is, that there's always a dawn, right? There's always a dawn of some career and of some way that journalism is going to be done and told and written, and I'm really really looking forward to that. I hope you're right because Pandora's box doesn't get closed, and we talked about the great disruptor that is the the

internet, and you know you're not the only industry who's had to grapple with this massive, you know, radio is going through the same thing right like radio people are fewer and further between there's no overnight live stuff that used to be it you could buy a house as a radio person now forget about it you've got to live with a couple of other families if you want to do that and the other thing that's happening now in radio is also probably happening in newspapers is that you'll have a show let's say a show like the Ross and mocha show on 92.5 and that show will be live in Toronto but it'll be the morning show and like 20 other markets across the

country and that used to be like a local live morning show that is now just the syndicated programming coming out of Toronto but this is this is the this is the deal when the internet shows up and eats your lunch. Yeah. Well, that's the case, right? And even before the internet, the 2010 Olympics in Vancouver, there was a guy, I think from the New York Times, who was an expert in how to cover things in the so-called modern fashion. He came in, gave a really nice description of how the business is changing and he says, look, bottom line is here's what you

need to cover the Vancouver Olympics, a mountain bike and a cell phone. And we all looked at him and said, are you crazy? And there was an expletive in there before, crazy. you can swear in this show and he was right in a certain extent because maybe his the way he said it was gonna change didn't exactly change that way but change was coming mark this is how I covered the city a bike not a mountain bike but my bike right behind you and my phone and a lot to be said there okay Okay, I... And that's totally cool too. Totally. Yeah, you got to film your own stuff, record your own stuff.

I think that's awesome. And that's the way I think people are going to do it. They're going to be individual artists, not so much employees or beat writers. They're going to be individual artists. That's the future, I think. As long as the future has, you know, people with integrity who follow a journalistic code sitting in on boring Council meetings and all that important stuff like you know, cuz I'm not there Okay, so mark. I want to give you some gifts You mean you finally made your Toronto Mike debut and then I have questions their questions came in for you

There's one person that you covered in particular. I need to dive into where do I begin? Okay, so you played pro ball? So yes, you're in good shape, man You might get you might be able to play for the Toronto Maple Leafs baseball team. I'm just sizing you up right here Maybe when you and Joey Votto can join the team at some point here I did do a story on Rob Butler last year. So maybe he said the same thing, but Unfortunately, the shoulders are a little compromised these days. So man, you got to hear that chat I had because Rob came over. He lives in the Durham region now.

I went to his house and it's fantastic. OK, really is cool. Shout out to my buddy Elvis, who apparently lives down the street. So if his house is fantastic, Elvis's house is fantastic. That's what I say. OK. But I'm going to be recording live from the season opener, which is May 12 at 2 p.m. at Christie Pitts and I urge everyone listening to drop by.

I got some cool cast speaking to great sports journalists, Stephen Brunt's going to be there. Oh, it's standing, man. Yeah. Coming all the way from the hammer. We're going to have the great Blair Packham from the Jitters is going to pick up Rick Emmett from Triumph. Going to pick him up in Burlington and bring him to Christie Pitts. He's going to get honored before the game.

Wendell Clark is going to be there. Rick Vibe is going to pick them up in Burlington and bring them to Christie pits. He's going to get honored before the game. Wendell Clark is going to be there. Rick vibe is going to be there. I get to meet people, great FOTMs, like the aforementioned Steve Paken and Peter Gross and Mark Hemsher. Oh my God. So many greats Rod Black is going to grow a mustache for this event. He's promised me on the recording here. So if you're around, man, you got to come out to May 12, 2 p.m. I actually, there's a name I'm going to drop in a minute. I don't want to spoil it, but there's a big name who was, who's visiting Monday with Mary Ormsby and I got to get him

to come out for the game on May 12 as well. So I'm giving you a history book on the history of the Toronto Maple Leafs baseball team. That's going home with you, Mark. Thank you, Kylie. And I really look forward to checking that out because there is a great history there as you know. And you know, my heart still is with Jack and Lynn because they treated me really well. And Jack was actually very instrumental in getting me a news writing job in 1986 at the Kitchener Record. He knew the publisher and he just phoned up and got me a job.

I had to go get news writing experience because they actually let me go and I went to spend a summer there and got my job back after I got the news writing experience. But it was really, really difficult and really, really hard. But Jack was really helpful to me and Lynn, as you know, was just fantastic and sitting up in that, uh,

announcers booth up above the field that brings back some really, really great memories. Well, forever, uh, Jack's field, you know, yes, absolutely. Fresh craft beer from great lakes brewery going home with you you as well, Mark. They brew that here in Southern. I was actually last night I was hanging with Joe Bowen at the GLB brew pub. They made a special Holy Mackinac lager and a dollar from every can is going to sick kids because standing. I donate to sick kids myself. I do too. I do too. I do too. And one of Sean Bowen, his third born,

spent some had leukemia as a child and sick kids was there. And, uh, Joe is forever supportive of sick kids forever more as you can imagine. And, uh, this is for a good cause. So, and it's delicious. I had three glasses last night. Outstanding. Shout out to Joe Bowen who gets to go to Boston too, man. Don't you think it's crazy that, uh, it's anything that's nuts? Like how much money does MLSC make that they, uh, cheap out on sending these radio guys on the road? That's right. I know. You don't have to be careful. You're just, no, I,

I can't get going on that, but that's not, it is nuts. And you're absolutely right. And, um, let's, I would say even a newspaper, they have the money. And it should not be a question of money. If you're putting a newspaper out or you're putting a radio broadcast out, you have the money, come on. Like if you wanna battle as a radio station

or as a newspaper, you don't cut. You go out at full force until your last breath. Don't, yeah, let's not go down this road. I guess spend an hour on this road, you know, but I have, I have, do you like Italian food? Love it. I have the most delicious, uh, lasagna in my freezer right now from Palma pasta. They're in Mississauga in Oakville. So, uh, when you're in the West end, that's where you gotta go, but you can go to palmapasta.com. You're going to love, because Peter Gross,

for 70 years, 70 plus years, has been eating every lasagna he can find, and he says he's never had a better lasagna than Palmapasta's lasagna. That's what you're talking about. He would know. That man knows. Peter Gross, man, you gotta come out May 12

just to hang out with Peter freaking Gross. That guy's a legend. Absolutely, I haven't seen him since I can remember. And you know, he's. That means you haven't been at Woodbine lately. No, well, we, there's another thing in the modern day that, you know, horse racing was not only a great thing to cover, but you would go because hockey people had horses.

And if you ask Dave Perkins or Jim Proudfoot, who covered regularly back then, half the scoops they got were because they went Saturday and Sunday to Woodbine. Wow okay so you got the lasagna now I will tell people that on June 27 I'm hosting TMLX 15 that's the 15th Toronto Mike listener experience at Great Lakes Brewery in southern Etobicoke this is like 30 Queen Elizabeth Boulevard down the street from the Costco 6 to 9 p.m June 27. Everyone's invited. Palma pasta is going to feed everybody and your first Great Lakes is on the

house. This is just unbelievable. Come hang with me. We're going to have a, have a great time. Sounds terrific. Actually you got to come. I'm you send me a reminder cause I got the memory of a sieve right now, but, well I didn't record this. So just listen back on June 26th. Hey, this is a great gift as well. This is a wireless speaker. Sounds amazing too.

Ed Keenan had a blast in his backyard at his 50th birthday party when I was at that. So it's courtesy of Monaris because Monaris, in addition to you listening to Jimi Hendrix... By the way, Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, all these people died at 27 years old. 27 clubs are quite large. It's really crazy. And I guess, so your cell phone goes off and you can't even pick it up on the recording. Like I hear it and it's like I'm at a spa or something, right? It's like, you know, that music in your head. Not that I go to a lot of spas. I love my ringtone, actually.

California, here I come. Right. What's this? A big trip you're going on? What's going on? You going to California? I wish. I love to go to California. Actually, the southern tip of it. Right. This is a big trip you're going on. What's going on? You're going to. I wish I loved to go to California, actually the southern tip of it. California. Okay. So I would like to shout out Al Grego, who hosts Yes, We Are Open and season six is dropping

like every week in the latest episode, he goes to Banff, Alberta, and he talks to the owner of Mountain Chocolates and learns about their trials and tribulations because I guess you might've heard about this pandemic that really disrupted the tourism to Banff. And now that, you know, they're dealing with inflation and supply chain issues. So find out how they're doing. This is a great series to be inspired by small business owners across the country. It is called Yes, We Are Open Season Six, dropping now.

Shout out to Minaris and Al Gregor. Absolutely. Well, I just came back from skiing in BAMP. So, Oh yeah. You're a big skier. Yeah. And as you know, or as I mentioned, I'm a big model railroad and railroad fan and BAMP station is still the way it was back in the days of steam. And it's absolutely beautiful. And I, I go there all the time, take pictures and just kind of sit there and, uh, you know, you need to be retired. You got too many passions. Yeah.

The work is getting in the way of the retirement thing is, is cool that way. It really is. And you know, need to be retired. You got too many passions. Yeah. The work is getting in the way of retirement thing is cool that way. It really is. And you're young enough to enjoy it. Like, yeah, I just had an excellent interview two days ago with Scott Turner, who was a long time radio guy on at CFNY and doing away and Scott just retired. And he was just like, he's in his early 60s. He's 64. He's 64. And he's like, no, I need to retire now to enjoy life. And he just went to Costa Rica and he's like no I need to retire now to enjoy life and he just went to Costa Rica and he's doing all these biking up a storm he

cycles like 50 60 70 K rides all the time but he needs to do it while he's fit and healthy and can enjoy it you'd wait too long you don't have enough time to enjoy life you're a smart man here absolutely and time you know, it's a gift. So you, and you can hear this from anybody, but you've got to make use of it. And you don't have, that doesn't mean you have to be disciplined and do something every second of the day, but be involved in something. That's the best thing to do with your time. So you got the railroad stuff going on. You got the cars, you got the, uh, skein. And of course we talked about

you're going to, you're a bodybuilder, right? But I just got just quick story, real quick one here is that so Rod Black, you know, he's, he's involved with the Toronto Maple Leafs baseball team, just like I am. And Rod Black is going to be there May 12th. And we were talking about growing his mustache. So I kind of mentioned him in the intro when Biff Naked was here last week. So Biff Naked is. I love Biff naked. Absolutely. Man. I love that woman. She's sitting here. I just mentioned the name rod black in the intro and she goes rod black from Winnipeg. And I'm like, yes, yes, actually. Okay. She goes,

I dated, but the word dating will use loosely. I was with his brother Derek who was a big bodybuilder and her relationship with Derek when she was very young growing up in when she was probably a teenager in Winnipeg when she's with Derek Black. This created a preference that Biff has had for many years where she was very into bodybuilders. So it all gets triggered by Rod Black's brother in Winnipeg all those years ago. Isn't that a mind blow? That's cruel. Very cool.

Wow. Okay. So one last gift here. This is from Ridley Funeral Home and it is a measuring tape and you can measure those biceps and see if they're growing. You know what? These things come in handy because if you're on cars or on trains where you're doing carpentry or you're doing renovations, this is pocket size.

This is actually real cool. That's for you, man. Thank you so much. Shout out to Ridley Funeral Home, official funeral home of Toronto Maple Leafs baseball. That's not a joke. You're at the paper in 88. I just want to ask you about this

because of somebody who's visiting Monday. You're at the paper in 1988. And of course the big story is Ben Johnson and this story has many phases to it. There's the, oh my gosh, we have a guy who's against Carl Lewis who has a chance to win gold in the premier event at the Seoul Olympics. Yes. So there's that. Go ahead.

I was at York University in school then, and before that as well. And Ben Johnson, I was a sports reporter at Excalibur, and Ben Johnson, Mark McCoy, and Desai Williams were walking around the track complex there with their shirts off, and that was one of the inspirations to get into bodybuilding, because those guys were gods, right? Ben had that barrel, yeah, he was a strong everybody.

He was all that and a bag of chips as they say. But you know, they ruled and they were, you know, they were just normal guys up there. You could go up and talk to them. Angela Taylor, Angela Zdenko, God rest Angela Taylor's soul and she gave me a fantastic interview and I and you know Sylvie Frichette the swimmer so in 88 yeah well after that but like I remember interviewing her up there York had a lot of like national team athletes Karen Morch was a board sailor. I made some terrible mistakes on that story and she gave me hell for it and I still bothers me to this day.

But you learned. Yeah, you learn the hard way, right? That's the only way to learn in journalism. You got to make a mistake and then get hell for it. And you know, I think a lot of people can relate to that. But yeah, Ben and those guys were up there and you could watch them. You could go in, you know, they ran indoors, they ran outdoors. York is such a different place now. You know, the track complex up there is exquisite. The ranks and everything are so much different.

But back then it was not even a shadow of what it is today. It was just so much more Spartan and simple. And you know, one rank, one track thing, when you know one rank one track thing when you know the football team played there and it was you know like you could walk and you know in the winter you could walk you'd freeze your you know what off and we also used to walk they had this great tunnel underground to go to the Complex one where a couple of the colleges were and your courses were. So, yeah, it was great and Ben used to go to a club called Berlin, young and Eglinton a lot and my brother,

my older brother Walter was kind of leading the house band there in the 80s and 90s for a while and Ben, you could always see Ben there having a good time and you know, I introduced my niece to him and she was a huge fan of his and she was like shrieking like, you know, I'm going to meet Ben Johnson and all that. And it was just, you know, you get to know them and Mary has done covered the dubbing and choir in her book. It's coming out and it's out now. I have a copy upstairs.

And so that's the catalyst for why on Monday. So we're recording on a Friday. So this is actually the next episode of Toronto Mike. Mary Ormsby is going to visit but she's bringing with her Ben Johnson. Ben's going to be sitting down here and it's going to be wild because I'm of an age where I think I was 14 years old when that race was run in Seoul and South Korea. And you know there's that there's nothing like this in Canadian history where that kind of a high followed by that kind of a low.

And it's quite a story, but it's fascinating to me that you're... Like, did they send you to Seoul? No, no. I was more valuable... Well, if you want to call it valuable, but I was, you know, baseball and hockey. And that's... Not so much got slotted into that, but there's a you know, baseball and hockey and that's, I, not so much got slotted into that, but there's a need for that. Right. Like, of course I started out covering baseball much more, you know, world series in that, but, um, the, the Leafs were terrible, but when Pat Quinn came aboard, hockey became a very big story. So I crisscrossed

from, uh, through both sports and eventually wound up on hockey. That's part of the reason I built up six months of vacation pay too, because I never took vacation. I was covering two sports and put a lot of miles and wear on the old frame here, but it was a great time. And like I said, we still traveled with the teams and you know, being able to fly with, you know, sitting in the same plane as Roger Clemens, David Wells, and Roy Halliday and all those names, you would learn some things, right?

And you'd see them with their hair down. And we're talking about Michael Jordan and the Bulls. We got to stay in there, fly from Detroit to Toronto on an all-star break. When the Blue Jays were visiting, we didn't have a charter back and the Bulls lent us that plane, which was basically a very small charter plane that was like a flying casino. It was all velvet, black and red inside with dim lights.

And I'll bet there's a lot of gambling going on. Well, that's the thing, right? And, uh, it was, it was outstanding. And, you know, you get to, uh, uh, take, you know, in those days, you know, just there was not written unwritten rule that you would never report what you see on the plane. Cause that's, you know, that's their time. And it's not official and you're there, you know, basically as a privilege. So, but that is a good question. Like where is that line? Like, I know there was a story by I'm thinking of a FOTM Steve Simmons.

It was kind of, he's written a couple of stories, which some people thought were maybe like a, what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas type deal. I can borrow that line, but where is that line for you? Like if you're on a plane and your players are just chilling out and you, I don't know, you hear something or you see something like, like, how do you make the call? Whether this is something that should be reported or something that should be kept, uh, kept quiet.

Well, I'll give you an answer by giving you an example of something that I regret, uh, to this day. Um, I had a very bad falling out with Ty Domi, who was very helpful to reporters and are a very class guy like that There was around the time when his brother had some kind of problem at City Hall and I was Computer sales. Yeah, I remember this story. Well, see I had a story Before that about Once at least got out of the playoffs and they had isolated, uh, Darcy, uh, Shane Corson and one other player's name eludes me right now. And nobody had that

story. And the headline the next day, these Leafs aren't buds. There was a team party and, uh, the three of them got, they weren't invited and it turned into a real, real bad deal the next day. Yeah. Well, that was, that was, I had a phone call from, uh, you know, from a bar in, uh, from Hemingway's and, um, they all got, uh, screwed out of it and they were pretty upset and they, they didn't mind that I wrote it. I just wrote it in a certain way. But anyways, um, with Ty, I was, this was a little

later on, but I sat in a meeting and I mentioned this and I said, this is off the record. Um, my editor at the time, uh, didn't give a damn about that. And he put it into it. He put it in, inserted himself into a story and Ty read it the next day and never spoke to me again. And you know, I regret that to this day. You violated the trust.

Well, that's it. There's, you talk about a line, right? Off the record means off the record. That's it so if you're on a plane or you see something or you see um like you said gambling you see you hear a story I mean I could tell you stories on flights that were absolutely insane uh that um you know you don't report it right like like it's it's understood, right? Like Roger Clemens was big on that. And there was, Roger was like for one, for instance, used to have the pitch speed, the original pitch speed display at the dome.

Roger absolutely put his thumbs down, his foot down on that. And he had a lot of reasons for that. And we had a conversation about that, about giving things away. Roger was still to me one of the most ultimate competitors I've ever met. And his whole history, what the Hall of Fame and all that is another story. And I think he deserves to be in there because he's really, in his early years in Boston, I think he still was the greatest right-hander I ever seen outside of Tom's theater.

Him and Barry Bonser, guys, you can say, pre-dope, because it all comes back to Ben Johnson here, but pre-doping were Hall of Fame worthy. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And you know, there's a line, right? Like when you have that conversation, there's two things that happen. One, it's off the record.

But two, if you keep it off the record, you only strengthen your relationship when you need something conversation, there's two things that happen. One, it's off the record, but two, if you keep it off the record, you only strengthen your relationship when you need something on the record. So say like today, like I've, you know, the big thing today is like, we react to things. We don't set, set a tone anymore. So, you know, all we do is, you know, when you have the chance, but say, um, uh, for instance, when, uh, Marie Philip plan, uh, one of my favorite hockey players period scored that great wrist shot goal. Um, I had to get ahold of her and couldn't, and you know,

they were still out wherever the hell they were out in the road and she could, she just couldn't get back to me. So I wrote a follow up story, um, about how terrific that shot was. Now I I had to get some backup for that, some quotes to give it credibility. So I could phone Doug Gilmore. I could phone and try for Mario Lemieux, who had great shots. Wendell Clark had a great shot.

What a shot that man had. And you get that and it helps you out. So what I'm saying is is you don't get phone numbers by reporting things that are off the record. You get it by building a trust. I understand that 100%. Let me ask, if you're still gambling rampant, I'm sure nowadays sports gambling is everywhere. There's a whole conversation we had there, except

if you caught, if you even got a sniff of, let's say, I'll make it up, but unknown, unnamed Blue Jay player betting on baseball. Like if you got a sniff of that, would that be a, that's a bridge too far? Like, like that kind of thing needs to be reported. If you violate a law, like then there's no, you know, you have to do your job. Right. If you get a scene you can't keep the water on something like no and that's understood right and and you know There's there are some Some things that are probably happening to this day They're still not reported and people don't get a piece some people know but can't you know do it? But at the same time something that like if you're a public figure and you violate or get stuck in

something and, and, and, and, you know, we, we know situations, right? Right. That, you know, like, like it's understood, you have to do your job. Like you just can't sit there and not and say, Hey, I know I can phone this person and get a quote or something, but I'm not going to do it because there's this line that's understood. And you know, you talk about that with people and they learn, you learn more about hockey or something, but I'm not going to do it because there's this line that's understood. And you know, you talk about that with people and they learn, you learn more about hockey or baseball, but they learn more about where you're coming from,

right? And again, that only strengthens the relationship. And it's not like your brothers or, you know, family or anything like that, but there's a, it's, it's healthy, right? It's, it's understood. And, in the respect between the two people is defined much stronger that way. There's a gentleman who played for the Maple Leafs. I was a big fan actually. Sadly, he's no longer with us and we're going to kind of have a bunch of questions related to him. But before that, it's funny, I mentioned Sean Bowen earlier, who is the third born of Joe

Bowen, who I was actually with yesterday. But Sean Bowen is a I think he's a in-house guy for the Argonauts now like yes yes so so I think at this event yesterday with this beer that Great Lakes has there were a bunch of people wearing Argos hats and Argos gears that he must know from the Argos community and a question came in from I don't know if he's a real professor but he called he's Professor James Fraser. And the question for you is, what is Mark's theory on how and why the stature of the Toronto Argos has developed in the way that it has during his time on the beat? Simplistic answers are a dime a dozen, but what's his explanation? Now that you're retired, what are your thoughts on the stature of the Argos in this

market since you started covering them? Well, you know, we covered, um, 2012 Grey Cup win. Then we didn't cover it then 2017. I was probably on it from 16 and 17 with, uh, Mark Tressman as a coach. After 17, as we know, they went through two years of four and 14. Um, there was, like they did not anticipate that collapse. Uh, what happened though was fortuitous in that when Tressman went and then, uh, I think the car hired Corey Shambles as coach and then they went foreign 14 again. And that was, I think he's 18 or something like that or 19. So they brought Mike Pinball Clemens in as GM

Jim Pop out Mike Clemens in. Mike probably doesn't get enough credit for what he's actually done for the feel that he has not only for football but for people. You know he but coached in Whitty and and the two of them hatched the plan that they were going to be consistent like the late 80s Edmonton Eskimos. They were going to create a roster, create a plan, play football a certain way in that they were going to go to the great cup all the time. Just like the, I think the Eskimos back then and now the Elks went five times, I think five times

in a row to the cup. But with that comes, you have to make moves, right? The draft, you know, they started drafting Curly Gittins Jr., Tommy Neal, Peter Necastro, players who not were just drafts but became stars. Curly's been traded since. But you also, you know, you get American players up here. Sean Oakman, Dejan Allen became stars up here. They weren't just people who came up.

They became stars. Now absolutely in 17 you had Ricky at quarterback great guy like you know you you that and the CFL is all about quarterback and it is an NFL and it's not but not necessarily I find that with the Argos yes you got to have a great quarterback but if you look at the Argos they're going to and you really look at them and yes there is the man himself Doug Flutie and the Boba head there is actually a really terrific one too. The Argos really really did well with their offensive line which is stunningly important I think you only

have to look at the Kansas City Chiefs to see that and then defensively, they built that and built that and built that. And you know, the last three years is seeing the success, the fruits of that. But you look at that roster now and you look at the playing time that say an offensive lineman like Darius Bledus gets. Darius is an all-star lineman who's been told, you know, there's too many guys who are good, so your playing time is going to be there and then it's not going to be there. And every, most of the players on the offensive line and all the players on the defensive side of the ball were told that, you know, that you're not always going to play. You're going to be a starter, but you're 1A and then 1 and 1A and 1A double A, right? So the point is with that plan that they hatched,

you know, in the first year was canceled, the 2020 season was canceled by COVID. So that might've been a blessing and that they actually had more time to devote to that plan and find the players that, you know, they could pretty much bet the fireman that they were gonna be successful up here. So they added that depth.

They became a team that not only is successful, but was built on the fact that they had star players, but that their basic foundation had so much talent that there was two players who could play start at each almost every position. I think that's what led to the turnaround and to the success you've seen them have in the past couple of years. And they probably should have had two great cups in the last three years instead of one, things don't work out and stuff happens as they say. But you look, you just take a look inside at that and

see how a 16 and two season, something done once before, you know, that's the product of a lot of thinking that started with Coach Dinuiti and Pinball. Absolutely. Now they have a bit of off field issues they got to deal with in Chano Argos with Chad Kelly and I will say I feel a bit bad for this franchise because I do root for the Argos and they did get what I would say. Well, I think it is absolutely the biggest crowd at BMO field for an Argos game was that game against it

was against the Montreal that they laid an egg. Like they just completely that team that you mentioned was like, I guess they were 16 and one or whatever, completely laid an egg in front of the largest home field crowd since they moved to BMO. Yeah and that shows you what sports is all about but that I didn't cover that game because I had retired the week before that and I'll be honest with you I thought so much how I would have handled the writing of that game and you would have to be you know quite hard on them because that is an undefinable collapse. They're just, they were so far behind in the first three or four plays of the game

that they couldn't recover. And that team should recover based on what we were just talking about, the depth that they had. So that is a measure of how colossal, like with the Leafs and 12 with the 4-1 lead, right? Like it just mathematically cannot happen, but it did. So I remember. Yes, we all do.

And I still talk to 2013, right? 1320. Yeah, the 1213 season. And I still talk to James Reimer about that when I see him and because we remember him being sprawled out on his belly with his just looked like he was doing snow angels on his on the reverse side in the crease after that goal went in so yeah it happens right and and that's why we go and that's why they play the games that's why we go that's why we love sports indeed you never know what's gonna happen by the way just to mop up a little something we couldn't remember the third person there, so you mentioned Darcy Tucker and Shane

Corson, and on the livestream, the VP of sales tells us it was Travis Green. Yes. That was a Swedish player there too. I can't, oh gosh, I think, I can't remember his name, and I should, and there's another story with him about the World Championships, and Torz not allowing, he was the only player, I think he moved on to Tampa and Torts wouldn't let him go. Modin? I think it wasn't Modin. No, I'm trying to name now, I'm going to just name Swede.

Yeah, at any rate, I can't remember, but he was there and he wasn't allowed to go to the celebration of the World Championship gold medal in Sweden, which apparently was one of the greatest hockey celebrations of all time in Stockholm. Wow. Okay, so now that we've segued over to Leafs again here, thanks, that was very thoughtful on the Toronto Oregonauts and the professor who submitted that, I hope is pleased.

But I got a number of questions about a guy and we got to spend a little time on this. You've been amazing, so I just want to say thank you. Now you need to just spend maybe three hours on this guy. Okay. So I'll read a few questions before we even hear from you and then we'll dive into it. But Tyler writes in for Zolinsky. That's used well, inskey. I believe it was his book on John Kordic that was going to be source material for a movie. I think it was gonna be directed by Bruce McDonald and starring Hugh Dillon as John Kordic.

I'd love to know if that's correct. And if so, what involvement in that project, what his involvement in that project was. So let's just set this up by saying, you wrote a book, the John Kordic story, the fight of his life. Yes. That's essentially, that is the definitive bio

on John Kordic, if you're looking to learn more about the late Maple Leaf John Kordek. If you're looking to learn more about the late Maple Leaf, John Kordek and that whole story and then that that guy's name comes up a lot on Toronto Mike because I keep having Neil Gord's Stalick over and then we always talk about Cortinal and in Kordek and everything. But before we dive into it, can you can you tell me is that true that there was going to be a movie directed by Bruce MacDonald on the life of John Kordek based on your book that was going to star Hugh Dillon from the headstones? Yes.

I still have the script for it. Lynn Crosby wrote it. And we were really, you know, was ready to go. But as you know, it takes, you have to get corresponding rights to portray and or include an NHL jersey in the filming. It takes approval, which we didn't get. That was a real damper on that project. It turned out, I believe, if my memory serves me right, that CBC was interested in making

it a movie of the week and turn it into a fictional team and a character. And like the Toronto Bayleaves. Exactly. Like you even look at the Austin Matthews commercial right now where he's slamming stuff and breaking stuff on the wall. He has a blue and white uniform on,

but he doesn't have a Maple Leaf. A great example of this real quick is that, because my brother and I were talking about this movie last weekend because apparently I'm now hearing that people said it was a bad movie but I have such glorious memories of this movie as a kid. I refuse to believe it was a bad movie but the natural was the New York Knights and it was always like New York Yankees but they couldn't use Yankees so it was the New York Knights and that's sort of what you're saying.

Make it with a great old Memorial Stadium in Buffalo Right now, did you like that movie loved it? See I loved that movie. My brother loved that movie But lately I've been hearing on various like nostalgia podcasts that was terrible These are always younger people revisiting it that it's a terrible movie and I'm like we talked about the same frickin movie Wonder Boy like we're talking about the natural that has been parodied by the Simpsons a hundred times. What a wonderful film. Okay, I digress there, but you can always have a nice natural digression here. So they'd never made the movie and then Hugh Dillon at some point is too old to play John Kordick. So I like, I don't know, is this still, I guess you still can't get the

rights to use any jail stuff. No, that's mothballed and I've since written. You want to make it with me as a side project and leak it? Well, you know, interestingly, um, about three, four years ago, um, TSN, I think in Montreal came and, um, did a whole documentary on it. The book, me, they followed me through the office walking, they came to my desk at the Star when we're still back in the old One Young Street building, which is hard for me to believe the old One Young Street building, but it's gone now.

Well, it's there, but we're gone. The building's there, the star is gone. Yes, over to the old Globe building at the bottom of Spadina. So there, I was surprised actually, because that's the years after the fact years after that movie was, you know, kind of didn't didn't get made. That there was still talk about it and interest about it. And then in Quebec City, especially, you know, where he spent his last days, right, they still talk about it. And, and, and, you know and undeniably so because the story of his fall is a cautionary

tale that I think the league learned from. The league has lost players due to brain injury and stuff like that. Chris Simon just passed away, likely from CTE. I don't know if that's that's Chris Simon just, um, yes, passed away from this likely from CT. I don't know if that's improving it. And that is something still that is, you know, I don't, I don't think it's been, um, the truth of it, the acknowledgement of it and the proper response to it still hasn't really unfolded as it should. Uh, so these things are, they come back, right? And the Cordex story, as much as John wasn't, you know, a top six

player, to be to put it mildly, that his story does provide, you know, a lesson and something to remember and something to learn from. And as it does with most players, and pretty much all players, like, you know, this is again, why we show up to cover it and tell those stories. And I think again, about the future journalism is these stories.

You know, if you can come up with them and you find out enough and have enough relationship with a player and tell their real story, that that's, I think, where it's going and that's what people would be interested in. Right, tell me a story the humanity of it all we can all relate to the humanity even non-hockey fans can relate to the the the humanity of the John Kordak story and you're right a cautionary tale a tragic tale. Elephants and Stars, his real name is Manfred but

that's his band Elephants and Stars he's an FOTM and he's a huge John Kordak fan whenever I have a Stelick on be be it Bob, but mainly Gord, there's always a conversation about the Cortinal. By the way, do you think that was a good trade for the Leafs, a Cortinal for Kordak? Some argue it was a understandable, decent trade, but it's very popular to take the other opinion. I think that if I were to really try and categorize it now, I'd say it was a 50% venture on the good side, probably much stronger on the bad side. But it's not, I don't think it was a question of a good or bad trade because the consensus

would probably be a bad trade. It was a trade that was needed. And given the coach at the time, The coach wanted to toughen up. Yeah. And that still exists today with Ryan Reeves, right? The criticism he got at the beginning of the year for being on the ice for all those goals. And yet we're now going to talk about, is he going to be on the roster for the postseason? Can the Leafs beat Boston?

Yes, absolutely. They can beat everybody this year. They have. I've been saying this all year. For some reason this year I feel like why not the Leafs this year? Like we could beat Boston. You can beat Boston. You can beat Florida. What they have, I don't think I ever

thought myself that it was a question of the same old question being tough enough and this and that they play tough in a certain way. Unfortunately, two of the top four players, the core players are not physical players. So that you can look at and that's always going to nail home that argument. But right now, yes, you, if you look at what Jake McCabe did, the blast, the past two games,

that's how you win championships. That guy, like if you're going to hand out that belt that they hand out, you should have just left it in his locker for those two games because that, like I said, that is the intangibles that win. And they have that. I think they have, yes, that you can say they're tougher in this and that with Ryan and with Edmondson and Benoit and Jake.

And that's a very big thing because now your other players who aren't as physical can go out and be work harder. And again, it's just it's not always being Winning a fight or smashing somebody out. It's just getting in position, put your stick in the right place. I think they've learned that lesson and I'm very, very Probably excited to see how they play against Boston. I, it would have been great against Florida, but Boston is real, you know, cause they've been the barrier, right? They, they've, you know, they just know they can be delisable. Let's see what happens this time. Absolutely.

And I will say as a guy who was hanging up Joe Bowen yesterday that how badly did he want to call Austin Matthew 70th goal? Like that just felt like it was inevitable and it was going to happen. And they were feeding them all game, especially the last game and they pulled the goal. He was a five. I don't know what he should have had. 76 schools, how many chances he had in the last two games. And it's like, you know,

and I had every other guy have a couple of little kids and I got them in, well, at least the 10 year old, I got him into this whole idea of like, you don't understand what 70 means. Like we just talked about Rick Vi, if you're going to see May 12 and that was that's what we had 54 goals Rick but anyway he never got to 70 but 69 is a cool number too but I gotta get back to elephants and stars because he's yelling at his phone right now elephants and stars few questions let's start with this one what was your impression mark of John Kordic while you were covering him on the Leafs beat that's I hope it's not too long winded because where I really covered him was when he got, you know, he was cheering, he was caught on camera cheering a goal of another team because

he wasn't getting played. So they shipped him up to Newmarket to play with the Saints. And I got assigned to that story and I stayed up there in a hotel right next to where they were staying and John was if you go into Newmarket now in the corner of 9 and 11 there's a hotel there and that's where he stayed and Unfortunately, there was a bar around the corner from there, which is where he pretty much lived when he wasn't at the rink so my impression of John was He was in a very difficult, vulnerable way.

He knew he wasn't going to get back anymore and it was just a matter of them getting rid of him at the end of the season. So he wasn't taking it seriously and he couldn't perform or do anything because he was staying out late and there was a lot of nightlife and a lot of things he was, you know, staying out late and, you know, there was a lot of nightlife and a lot of things he was doing. And he used to phone me see if he could get a ride home at three or four in the morning and stuff like that. So yeah, it was difficult. It was difficult to see. But at the same time, you saw more of the person in there as far as Buried was by everything else and I really like I was like I said all of a sudden he got traded I never talked to him again I tried to get through him

you know I think he went to Washington I really wanted to talk to him I just wanted to talk to him not about anything else just say how the hell? Right. I got cut off from that and I actually got a couple of messages to him through, you know, friends that he had here and people who were pretended to be his agents and said they were his agents and were full of shit. And I actually went to meet one of them and he was actually running a TV shop up on by Yorkdale, which is around the corner from where I used to live. And it was like, man, are you kidding me? Come on, I got my chain pulled on that one.

But he did know him and he said I was representing him on this and that. But that's what was happening. It was so loose and flimsy and it was so unprofessional and on all aspects from all parties. And he died what? Virtually less than a year or months after that so in Quebec so yeah I saw the last part and you know the arrow was falling by then and it was difficult was a very difficult thing to see

and for you personally what was it like when you learn the news that he had passed away? Well, I was sitting on a couch at home and there was the equivalent of what CP24 is now and there was a ticker tape at the bottom says John Kordak dead at 27. You know, we were mentioning the 27. 27, I got chills here, man. Yeah, and yeah, your heart drops and we've all suffered losses of family members and stuff like that.

And this one hurt, has hurt as much as anything is losing parents. I was living in Schomburg at the time when I decided to write the book and start learning more and more about things and how it happened, how it went down, how we spent his last night. And you can ask my wife, we're, you know, we're just, I had tears in my eyes going to bed every night thinking about everything we're just talking about and then thinking of, you know, that what I just learned and having a bigger picture and having an impression of it and just like, I don't know, you know, the thing, sometimes things just go right through to your heart and you can't help yourself. You know, it just, it hurts. It hurts to see. Sometimes things just go right through to your heart and you can't help yourself.

It hurts. It hurts to see. This is a life, a weight of a life. It's cut off early and makes you realize that I don't know what love is. I don't know what life is. I think it's just the things that come to us and then the love that comes to us, how much our love comes back out. I don't know how else to explain it.

John's famous, famous character and I just always question how much love he had in the last little while of his life. I think very, very little. We could go over the details and stuff like that, where he was, how he ended up where he was how he ended up where he was and That would have never happened if there was even an ounce of love in his life at that time Elephants and stars, right? So what thing what thing singular did you find out that surprised you the most? while researching the book

Trying to crack how he spent his last night and what happened with the police intervention was very difficult I used to work at the star in the radio room from 6 in the morning to 1 in the afternoon and then on Fridays I would drive to Quebec City starting at 1 I'd leave Toronto drive to Quebec City because my wife's sister lived there and I do my research all weekend, then leave Sunday night and get back in time the nine hour drive and start my shift Monday morning in the radio room. So there was a lot in there, but I got to know

a woman by the name of Louise Lupin who's since passed away of cancer, but God rest her soul, but she helped me out and we got ahold of the police and I got a firm picture of it. But the thing is, you know, I had to write that book in less than nine months. So there's a lot of stuff that went down a lot of stuff that happened. I could not get cut. You have to confirm that, right? You can't just say it happened. So at the same time, the family wouldn't help me because they had a lawsuit going on and they

Went nowhere with that and they got stonewalled as well, but that was the most singular most Difficult, but the thing that stood out the most was it was my first real experience with you know basically trying to tackle a police force and Several of them actually because there were several jurisdictions that showed up on the night. He died in that hotel room, but You learned something and you learn that you might actually spend a year or two years trying to crack that and get nowhere. And outside the people who did help me, and there was gang-related, mafia-related people in Montreal who helped me.

And I had to watch where I, you know, I got put up against a wall by people by, you know, coming into a bar trying to talk to somebody. And I said, you know, what the F are you doing here? You get to your ass out of here, you'll be in the ground, right? Had a gun pulled on me, you know, so that is interesting. And I, you know, and it wouldn't be the first time

that happened either, but. You've had multiple guns pulled on you. Yeah, we have some stories there, much too divergent from this topic, but it's, it was, you know, like that scares the shit out of you, right? Or at least it sticks in your mind to give you nightmares. But this as a professional, and as somebody who had never done it before, that really stuck out because it was trying to, you know, climb Everest in your bare feet, right? You just don't have the tools to penetrate that type of thing or the time.

So I did what I could with it and I had some help, but I, you know, once you start scratching the surface, you really can get into it. If you had the time, that's what I learned. And I learned how to appreciate investigative reporters who do that type of thing now that sometimes takes You don't see them write for months and possibly a year and then they come up with something that's worthwhile And that's how investigative journalism works and I'd never been privy to that or never actually done that until that mid 90s time when I wrote that book and it really stood out as

You know now, you know what you're in the business and what it's really all about and how difficult it is no matter how good you think you are. Like I know you have many passions to explore in this retirement of yours, Mark, but there is a compelling and fascinating podcast series to be recorded and produced on this story, The Life of John Kordak. And you'd be the guy to produce that sucker. I'm just throwing, I'm just throwing that out there. A John Kordic series, a 10 episode, you know, this is, this is, uh, what the people, uh, my people are looking for anyways. I thank you for that. Manfred, one last Manfred question here. And then, uh,

quick shout out to a couple of partners and then one last question. So you've done amazing here. Okay. Thank you. Giving you, I don't know how many podcasts you've done, but this is the first, okay. You know what you hit home run at your first, the first pitch you faced in the big leagues here. I'm impressed right now. Thank you. Manfred writes, have you heard about the alleged incident when his junior team went away on vacation after the Memorial Cup? Every word of it's true.

Every word of that's true. What happened to him, how he was approached sexually. Sexual abuse, he was a victim of some kind of sexual abuse there. And that is every word of that is true. But did you know about it at the time you wrote the book? At the time, well I found out about it and I was explained to me and again it is something that a particular couple of people got away with and I actually went out west to talk to them and they still wouldn't

acknowledge it and that it was all just hearsay and BS and so I had to actually you know physically go through this to confirm that and or at least post the subjects involved to get their side of the story so yes it's I I'm not afraid to say even though you know factually that that there's nothing there there are no charges or nothing like that so you have to say that but I'm not afraid to say that that's all true. And as we look at the story, and this is why you wrote the book and this is why we need, I feel like this will be a retirement project for you to document for a podcast series, but we need to, you know, it's textbook almost in that he experiences this trauma as a very

young man. And then, you know, and he's gone at 27 because he treats, he self medicates with substance abuse and alcoholism It's it's I don't want to minimize it by saying it's textbook Except this is where the heartbreak is and this is what makes it such a tragic story is the lack of love and support And uh nobody there to to help him heal. Yeah. Well The the sad part is and again, okay, sorry Peter gross is calling it I just want you know I could take it live on the air do it. Okay, I'm doing this. Hold on here

Hold on here. Everybody will get back to John Carter Peter gross. You're live on the air right now Okay, well firstly can you say hello to Mark Wolinski who's just retired from the Toronto Star Say hello to Mark Zwolinski, who's just retired from the Toronto Star. Hello, Mark Zwolinski. I've read your stuff. Hey Peter, same here. It's been a long time since we've bumped into each other in the past, but we're talking like decades ago. But I think it's awesome that you're calling in.

It's really, really great to hear your voice. Well, it's part of the aging process. It's always a long time between whatever. It's not the age, brother. It's just the mileage. Hey, Peter. I know you'll be at Christie Pitts May 12, but I'm trying to get Mark to come out too, and then you guys can have a reunion. Well, the fact that I'm going to be there should bring him out, don't you think? Absolutely. I think he's going to be there, actually. I can read it in his eyes.

Yes. So what is the favor? Well, I went to the Sovereign Awards last night. I wasn't nominated for anything, but it was very enjoyable. And I'm looking for clips from it to put into my podcast. And I found a seven-hour piece of audio, but I can't get into YouTube to access it. If I were to send you the link, could you reduce it and send the audio back to me? So you want me to take this link and give you like a seven hour piece of audio? Yeah.

You know what, for you, I would do that. It's not going to take you seven hours though. Oh God, no. I'm not going to send you the link because I can't do anything with it and it's frustrating me. But is there only, like if you't do anything with it and it's frustrating me. But is there only, like if you tell me for example, like it's seven hours, but if you said, hey Mike, I only need like 622 to 628, I could just send you that six minutes. I need five clips that happen between eight o'clock and 945, but I don't know what the

time code would be on. Okay, I'll send you the whole, that's a long one, but I could do that. Send me the link and then I'll send you an MP3 of the whole thing. Okay, but continue and finish your interview with Mark. You know, you were talking about John Kordic. Did you ever meet John Kordic? No, that's the Leaf player who unfortunately died, yes? Yes, that's correct. 1992.

No, I don't think I ever met Kordic. Yes, that's correct 1992 Okay, well listen Peter that's the second favor in two days I'll just say second big favor in two days That's why I'm doing it. All right, so say goodbye to Mark. You'll see him on May 12th. Thanks Mark. Look forward to it Peter. All the best. See, let's hear that on a Toronto Star podcast. Okay, so back to okay. So to wrap up, it's so tragic, but you were saying before Peter Gross rudely interrupted or chatted about John Kordak here, but in a very serious topic, But you, so the book, can people still get this book?

Well, it's obviously out of print. You know, Macmillan is no longer a publisher either, but from what I understand, you know, Amazon would have it for like pennies. The John Kordak story, the fight of his life by Mark Zwolinski, pick it up. And then again, honestly, I would be very interested in somebody like yourself hosting a podcast series where he could dive deep into his life and cover all this this is a you know a compelling but tragic story of a former Maple Leaf who you know was famously traded for Russ Cortenal there's

a lot in this story that I think would be compelling to, uh, to people. It's, it's, uh, it's fascinating, uh, regardless of, of what you, how you measure a hockey career. Um, because much of the stuff involves life, love, um, how fame affects somebody, um, just how vulnerable a young person can be. And this is back in the day where they had very little protection from, um, various elements of society, people,

and that how attractive that can be to a young mind. I like it. It's a timeless story. And, and I'm sure parents these days with famous children, famous athletic children go through the same things, but have much, much, much more resources at their fingertips to help them through this, possibly in, in a small ring related to the, what happened to John. It's reading a comment on the live stream from Jeremy.

It says, taking live Peter Gross calls. Another reason this podcast is great. You won't find that anywhere else people. If you want to hear live unexpected Peter Gross calls during the interview, it's only here. All right. I want to just quickly shout out RecycleMyElectronics.ca, Mark, because if you have old devices, old electronics, old cables, don't throw them in the garbage. Go to recyclemyelectronics.ca,

put in your postal code, and then they'll tell you where you can drop it off to be properly recycled so the chemicals do not end up in our landfill. Very worthwhile. That's very worthwhile. Also, now that you're retired, I'm sure you have somebody, maybe you manage it yourself I don't know but regardless There is a great podcast from Raymond James, Canada called the advantaged investor Hosted by Chris cook see whose son is a hell of a hockey player So shout out to Cole cook see a hell of a hockey player. We'll see what happens with his career

But whether you already work with a trusted financial advisor or manage your own investment plans, like I said, the advantaged investor provides the engaging wealth management information you value as you, Mark and everybody listening, you pursue your most important goals. So that's you enjoying refurbishing old muscle cars and all that exciting stuff. Okay. You've been awesome. Honestly, I've enjoyed every minute of this. You're. Your ace is at this. I can't believe this is your first podcast. My last question for you before we we say goodbye because

I've taken so much of your time is if you had to pick one story like your favorite story you covered during your entire career at the Toronto Star. What story was that? First World Series because for obvious reasons, but because you know you're much younger, you're kind of at a strong physical and emotional mental period of your life where you know ach, aches and pains, for instance, aren't a problem. And you know, you look different and you're just in that you're, you're 32 years old, right? So I, I loved baseball too. I wasn't that far removed from it. Right. And watching a world series, for instance, just as an aside to that, you know, Sparky Anderson, when he was alive, they used to ask him, are you going to watch baseball after you retire

as a manager? And he says, no, not much. And he says, well, what baseball are you going to watch this? I'll watch the series, which meant that, you know, everything else was just anticlimactic. If you're going to watch ball, watch the best, the best of the best of the best. You played at the Toronto Maple Leafs, right? I want to say Sparky played at the old stadium. Yeah, I think he was involved with it. And Sparky had a saying in the Tigers dressing room that still sticks with me today. It says the world turns over every 24 hours for those who are on top of it.

So yeah, that that World Series and watching how it went, and I think the 93 series was probably much, much more, not much more, but. Well, you got to win at home in 93. Yeah, and it was maybe somewhat, I don't know what the word is special that way, but the first one, being a part of that in my small way was something that I'll never forget, and something was probably I could highlight as a Number one highlight it all comes back to Otis Nixon. See how we did that. Yes

What's up with the punch? I mean, I guess you know, he's super fast. He's thinking, you know, but but geez Bunt Timlin fielded that pretty easily and then Joe Carter's at first base and we're going nuts here. I know I bet I guess they tried to surprise them at that time of the game and take advantage of it but Timlin played it well and you know remember seeing Joe jump up and down and it was crazy but Otis was a he was a real character an old-school player. Old-school guy who when he was in his 20s looked like he was in his 60s. Like he had an old man look to him. Yeah, but Otis was sinewy, muscular, and never, I've known several people like that. He had so much vascularity and athletic ability,

he could just get out of bed and run a 10 second 100 meter. It was incredible. On that note, Ben Johnson, 979, he's in the basement Monday Monday and you know what weird coincidence is that in this basement Wednesday because I produce his show is Donovan Bailey so this is a weird moment okay and I'll just say this because it's blowing my mind and I'm boring people by mentioning it but next week Donovan Bailey won't be the fastest guy in my basement like just take that in that's outstanding and you need to play that up. I can play it up but I'm worried that I think I don't think they I don't think they love each other those two gentlemen actually just because I've had so many conversations with

Donovan and I think it's because obviously Donovan was stripped of his 979. It's technically like it happened I watched it happen live but it didn't happen in the record books. And I think, you know, that Donovan, who says he ran clean and was never caught with any performance enhancing drugs in his system ever, doesn't want that stench on him anywhere. No, and you can't blame him for that. It's a legacy and that was 979 is one heck of a legacy. Maybe Usain Bolt will come on one day and then I can say, okay, we beat them both. But thank you for this, Mark. What a pleasure.

We got to take a photo by the tree after I get your lasagna. But you were amazing. And maybe you come back and kick out the jams one day. That would be terrific. And I would just like to say thank you for having me and really, really wish all your listeners the best and safe driving and health and happiness. And that brings us to the end of our 1,473rd show. You can follow me on Twitter and Blue Sky

and at Toronto Mike. Much love to all who made this possible. That is Great Lakes Brewery. Don't forget your beer. Palma Pasta, I'll get you lasagna. RecycleMyElectronics.ca, Raymond James Canada, the Toronto Maple Leafs baseball team, you've got your book. Monaris, you've got your speaker. And Ridley Funeral Home, you've got your measuring tape. See you all Monday when my special guests are Mary Ormsby and Ben 9.79 Johnson.

See you all then. And I'll play this guitar just the best that I can Maybe I'm not and maybe I am But who gives a damn because Everything is coming up Rosie and Grey Yeah the wind is cold but the smell of snow warms me today And your smile is fine and it's just like mine and it won't go away Cause everything is rosy and grey

Well I've kissed you in France and I've kissed you in Spain