Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Marvin Kaye: Toronto Mike'd Podcast Episode 1641

Episode Date: February 27, 2025

In this 1641st episode of Toronto Mike'd, Mike shares the second episode of Unleashed: A Producer's Guide to Indie Filmmaking. It's a conversation between Avi Federgreen and Less Than Kind creator Marvin Kaye about Canada's broken system. This conversation is both enlightening and infuriating. Toronto Mike'd is proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, Ridley Funeral Home, and RecycleMyElectronics.ca. If you would like to support the show, we do have partner opportunities available. Please email Toronto Mike at [e-mail]

Welcome to episode 1641 of Toronto Mike. Proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery. A fiercely independent craft brewery who believes in supporting communities, good times and brewing amazing beer. Order online for free local home delivery in the GTA. Palma Pasta. Enjoy the taste of fresh, homemade Italian pasta and entrees from Palma Pasta in Mississauga and Oakville. RecycleMyElectronics.ca. Committing to our

planet's future means properly recycling our electronics of the past. Building Toronto's Skyline, a podcast and book from Nick Ienies, sponsored by Fusion Corp. Construction Management Inc. and Ridley Funeral Home, pillars of the community since 1921. I proudly produce a podcast for filmmaker Avi Fettergreen. This podcast is called Unleashed, a producer's guide to indie filmmaking. Avi, by the way, will be a Toronto mic'd guest soon. And what I love about Unleashed is that Avi is

shining a light on a broken system. Be it filmmaking or television making, the system in Canada is broken. For the second episode of Avi's podcast, his guest was Marvin Kay. Marvin created a show you may know called Less Than Kind. If you listen to episode 1153 of Toronto Miked, when my special guest was Jesse Camacho, there was a great deal of conversation about less than kind. So here's an enlightening and infuriating conversation between Avi Fettergreen and Marvin Kaye. Oh, and a little Toronto Mike in the mix. If you like what you hear, subscribe to Unleashed, wherever you find your podcasts. Again, it's Unleashed, a producer's guide to indie filmmaking, by Avi Federgreen. Let's go out, we'll take no prisoners Lonely love, gotta leave it behind

We look like a million dollars Every time they look at us, we'll blow their Welcome back. This is episode two of a producer's guide to indie filmmaking. My name is Avi Fettergreen and thank you for joining us today. Today we have a dear friend of mine who was the show creator for one of Canadian Canada's best comedic series in my opinion, Less Than Kind. We have show creator Marvin Kaye. Marvin welcome. Thank you. It's lovely to be here. Marvin K. Marvin, welcome. Thank you.

I, I, I, I, and I'm touched that I, I, I'm considered such a good friend and such a talented person. It's very, it's very, it's true. Lesson kind remains one of my top favorite Canadian series of all time. And, uh, I wish it was still going on, but,. But Marvin, why don't you tell us, you know, the beginnings of you in the Canadian industry and we'll go from there. Okay, well, all right, let's go back. Let's go back into Marvin's history. I started off in music actually. I went and studied at the McGill Conservatory. I was a voice major. I thought I'd be an opera singer, although I didn't really like opera. But I did two years of all my performance courses and then they said you have two years of history and theory left and I went, bye. And then I went and studied

theater after that in Vancouver at Studio 58. And I ended up doing a lot of musicals in the summer stock after that. But while I was at Studio 58, I wrote a one act play called They Have Mayonnaise in Montreal, which got some critical acclaim that year. They did a festival of one acts and it got chosen in the papers in Vancouver as like one of the highlighted theater pieces of the season and so being who I was in the industry I ignored that for about ten years and went off and thought I could become a star on film TV and stage. You want me to keep going? All right, keep going. So years later, as my career hit a stall,

I decided maybe I should take out this play and see what I can do with it. And so me and a dear friend of mine, Chris Shaysgreen, we looked it over and thought, oh yeah, this could be a series. So we wrote some bits for it and we went to Buffalo Gal Pictures in Winnipeg, who said you should go to the National NFC with this and see what they did. So we went in, we got in with that and it ended up becoming less than kind.

And it was the first thing I ever pitched. And just like most writers out there, the first thing I pitched got green lit. Which is like lightning in a bottle really. Well, yes. And not only that, it attracted like some big talent like Mark McKinney and all of these kids in the hall people and some people do it. And then we were, suddenly we were shooting and I thought, wow, this is great. This is how, uh, this is, this must be how all writers and producers get started. You, you just write it, you pitch it and it's green lit. And one note about the cast of Less than Kind,

and it was truly an amazing ensemble cast, uh, including starring Maury Chaykin, God rest his soul, who's one of my favorite Canadian actors ever, and quite the gentleman as well. So great, great ensemble cast, which helped in conjunction with the great writing make it as successful as it was. Yeah, and Maury was,

because it was based on my family and me growing up in Winnipeg, and my father was a gregarious person, very much like Morrie. Like when I met Morrie, I thought, oh, this is my dad. My dad's alive. And like, he just had that same, my father had that same sort of energy.

And Morrie coming on board was really, yeah, that green lit a lot of things. It was fun. But also, I believe Mark McKinney was one of the writers as well with you? He came on board in the second phase of development. And that was just, that to me was, I was awed by it. I remember sitting down and having a meeting with this guy and I'm going, this is somebody I've seen on SNF. This is kids in the hall.

Like I was just sitting there and he was talking about my show. And I was a little starstruck, but he is so creative and so honest. And it was just so lovely and so inspiring to be. And he bought in so much that he fought for the show the whole way through his involvement, right? Yeah, he fought for it. And I think having him there because he has the strength and the reputation,

him and Gary Campbell, who was also a member of Kids in the Hall on the writing side, that it gave us a lot of freedom that most shows didn't have. Because we were an edgier show. We dealt with the coming of age of a teen, and we weren't shy about some of the sex and the drugs and all the other stuff that we dealt with. And eventually, because Maury passed in the second season, we actually wrote the death into the show, which ironically, like the reason I wrote the play in the first place was because my father had passed away. And it was actually in the original conception of the show

that we would go for four seasons and like we would watch the father Get ill and pass away because that was the whole motivation behind writing the play to begin with right and and also As the show progressed I mean it did four seasons but the latter seasons got a little bit more edgy or because HBO Canada really gave you the The creative right to be able to make it. Yeah. Well, the first season we were on city TV, which then got sold. And we, it got sold after the first season and we had already shot the second season when the sale had taken place. And then the new, uh,

people had come in while we were editing and they were trying to edit the show to be more in line with their thing. And that was CTV, correct? Yeah. Right. And, uh, I, it's the first time I ever saw Mark like exploded in an editing room just cause they, we kept getting like, Oh, why don't you come in here and out there? And to cut this little bit out and put this little bit here. And we were like, what are you doing?

What are you talking about? And, uh, so then we, we reached an agreement with them, but at the same time, somebody who was at city who had originally greenlit us had moved to HBO Canada and they said, why don't we take you? And then we were able to do for the second season, we put back everything we'd cut or started to cut. And then when we got renewed for the third season, they said, do whatever the fuck you want.

And we were like, are you sure? And they were like, yeah. And so Mark and Gary and all of us in the writing room, Chris and myself, like we all just, we were able to put out anything we wanted and do that. And it was, and even Mark and Gary both say it was one of the most creative, loving experiences of their life because they, it, it, it, that doesn't happen very, very often. And it was my first show.

So I was in this bizarre state where I thought, well, this is, this is the industry. But I was, I would, I, I didn't realize that I was on like a huge, uh, acid trip for that whole thing that every, that I was in dreamland for with that most writers don't ever get to. Right. Yeah. So that, you know, ended unfortunately after four seasons. And so talk about what happened with you and You know where and then you know as far as you finished this amazing run on this amazing show

That was you know nominated for awards and all these other things and then it's gone. What next? Well, first we started pitching shows then. The reality was we probably should have been pitching shows a year previous, but because I was ignorant and didn't know the business as well and nobody, there was really nobody telling me what to do. And that's, if I was to go back, I wish I could whisper in my ear, like, you're hot now, go spread the fire.

Because I thought, okay, I'll just, let me just finish this and then I'll move on to the next thing. And that's not how the biz works. You have to be, if you're on fire, you got to spread it and go, go, go. So after it closed, I got into development on a couple of shows. I wrote on a couple of other shows. Um, but I'll be,

I'll be very honest as a writer because my experience was just, let me write. I just got to write what I wanted because it was my show based on my life and I was in this room that had freedom. I thought every show was like that. So I would jump on shows and I would, and they would say, they would tell me how, what their format was and I would just go,

okay, well, I'll just write what I want. Because that's, they just want, they want me to write, right? But what you don't understand, what I wasn't taught was you're actually, you're being hired to write for them. You're being hired to write their voice. And so I did a few shows. I did well on those shows. One of the scripts got nominated again after that

for Best Comedy. And then, and also I was in front of the camera as well. I was still doing stuff and I got onto a few series for an episode or two here or there. I've done three episodes of Murdoch Mysteries. So that continued, but then things really started to die off for me. And yeah, I reached a point where I wasn't working. You were becoming irrelevant? I think I passed the irrelevant point to the point where I wasn't sure

what I should be doing next. And that's when I started to have to look back at what I was doing and what I think the industry expects of me. And start realizing that, oh, every writer is really a producer. And every writer, whether you have an agent or not, you are your own agent. And you have to get this stuff moving and you have to get it going. And it took me probably five or six years

after Less Than Kind ended to start to understand that. And honestly, if I was designing a course for writers right now, I would say it's great. If you're a talented writer and you have an ear for things, that's great. Understand what this business is, especially in this country. Right. How you have, like, learn how to fill out the application forms.

Right. Learn, learn what grants and stuff are available to you. Learn how to pitch because most of the time you're going to be pitching, you're going to be pitching to people who've never made a show before. Right. So you have to know it's about sales. It's not about being creative per se. It's about how to sell yourself as creative.

Right. But based on all this, I mean, from my point of view, I think Canadian television has a real problem. And you and I've had these conversations together over coffee and, and, and sandwich, uh, you know, sandwiches at center street deli, um, that, uh, it's only, we only see procedurals. We see reality television, lifestyle, factual television,

but we really don't see, and we're not, we're not really looking at the American television model or the British television model and trying to create shows that are anthology pertain related or whatever. Like it's always the same old, same old. It seems that, um, especially in Canada, we're in this sort of middle zone where we're in, instead of trying to be creative, we're trying to appeal to markets outside of us.

And Quebec's a bit different, like they, they seem to want to do their own thing. So like recent, I'll just jump ahead. Cause recently my best luck has been in pitching to producers in Europe, where I just send them, I sent them a script I wrote that was about an edgy concept and they were like, oh, this is great. And I was like, oh, and then I said, well, what else do you need from me? And they were like, well, we're on board.

Just tell us what you need. And I was like, oh, and then I said, well, what else do you need from me? And they were like, well, we're on board, just tell us what you need. And I was blown away. Right. But yeah, find, in Canada, the market seems to be about trying to be, which is sort of almost typically Canadian, the nice middle guy. Right.

You know, we're not trying to do anything too edgy. We're not trying to do anything that's bad, but we don't want to be too edgy. And I, and recently, especially the meetings I've had, all the producers have been asking for blue sky procedurals, right? Which is like procedurals that aren't like, you know, don't push the edges. Everything ends after the first episode. And then you just take the characters and you start something.

And it's a lawyer show or a cop show or a hospital show. The doctor show. Doctor shows. Yeah. Yeah. So that's, that's been a lot of what's being thrown at me. And it's what's funny is like when you talk, when I talk to other producers, like who have larger production companies, they even look tired telling me that this is what they're, what, what what what the market is demanding right

now but meanwhile I know the show I the shows I watch the shows that are winning awards the shows that I see being talked about are none of those fucking shows they're all the edgier shows and they're the show and the shows that I'm enjoying are the ones that are made in Europe that are That push the edges a bit that try and do something a little different. So And it seems we're caught in this like nothing land of not of trying to be nice and not Not trying to do anything too creative because that's a little Scary. Well, the other thing too is is like we export more comedians in any other country in the world, yet we don't do comedic shows like we used to. And we're seeing, we would never get a show like Ted lasso or some of these kinds of, you know, comedic yet dramatic series off the ground

here because the broadcasters, you know, to be honest, and I'm going to say it out loud, are dead from the neck up when it comes to this kind of stuff. And they, they fall in line with what they know, which is procedural. And we should be doing comedic shows. We have a great talent pool of comedians in this country that deliver time and time again. And it's been proven historically. And yet we're, it seemed to be now afraid of doing comedic series. Well, and I think it's part of that sort of blue sky procedural. It's just this formulation of trying to get something that's easily digestible to

the public instead of something that might make you squirm and laugh at the same time. Like that to me, those are the shows I enjoy watching. Those are the shows that I enjoy doing. Now I can write the other stuff, but in terms of the creative thing that makes your heart pump a bit, like that's all the stuff that's interesting for me. And I'll be honest, in terms of Canada,

most of the broadcasters, of Canada most of the broadcasters No, all of the broadcasters. I don't see any of them really pushing that line at all Some sometimes a little on CBC gem, but even that It's it's it's still holding back. It's still held back and it's it's it it doesn't really Pay attention to the craft of it as well. And so there's this imbalance of like well back and it's, it's, it, it doesn't really, um, pay attention to the craft of it as well. And so there's this imbalance of like, well, if that guy's got a big, uh, tick tock or YouTube following, we'll make him the show runner. Well, he's never really written a show before. Oh, well we'll get another experienced writer in,

but we won't call them a show runner. We'll just have them write, help him, help him in quotation marks, write the show. Right. And then it'll still be, but we'll still promote it as that person's show. And that I've seen, I've seen that happening a couple of times now, or a few times now, where people have done that. And it's like, it's, it's shocking to me that that's being allowed to happen. Well, the other thing too is, you know, and we've heard this over and over again

from the bureaucrats that run and fund television and film is that we need to develop and create a star system. Well how do you do that if all the stars are leaving the country to go be in successful shows outside of the country. Well, I would ask you like, what defines a star then? Is it a star? Is it, cause is it somebody who has like over a hundred thousand followers on

Tik Tok or is it someone who's a toured, multiple countries doing comedy shows or being in plays or writing plays that have been produced across, across the planet. I mean, if you look at people like Don Martin, who were, you know, in the early days of creating amazing, uh, television in this country, um, he went to the U S and has, is a Tony award winner now and things like that. Look, if I, if I could whisper into my ear,

10 years ago when my show was winning awards and getting critical acclaim, uh, there, there were people who were saying, you should go to LA, you should do that. But I was like, I was, I felt so overwhelmed with what was happening around me that I just thought, okay, I'll just, let me just finish this and then I'll go. But the truth was, and that I was too stupid or too arrogant to, to hear that this is how you plant the seeds. Really if you want to be a success in Canada you have to be a

success somewhere else first. And then Canada, then the Canadian system will look at you and go oh you're a star there well now you can be a star here. And that seems to be, you have to seem to have that permission, you need that permission to really get access to the full respect and a cooperation. And when it comes to like prime time television, a lot of the broadcasters here, uh, and you know who you are, are, um, is this, hold on, is this show, is, are you, are you aiming a bullet at all the broadcasters? I mean,

that's what unleashed is all about. Oh, okay. That's what we're here for. You're just, it's, it's just, it's like telling the honest truth about what's going on is that they tell you, you got, go find an American broadcaster and then come back to us. I mean, you know, so if you're saying, go find an American broadcaster who wants to take a show, you're basically suggesting that American television broadcasters know what's good and what's bad before you can even identify that, which I think that's a huge bullet in the head.

Like really. Yeah. And it's, to me, it's all part of that same, uh, thing where everything's trying to, everybody is trying to make it formulaic and mathematic and algorithmic in terms of instead of reading something and going, wow, I felt something with this, let's see if we can make it. I'm not saying everything should be like that, but I'm saying there should be some stuff like that.

Cause we have the other stuff. The other stuff is, I hesitate to use the word easier to make, but it, it's easier to find, but to, to actually go and find something that's darker or I don't like to use darker, just, just it's edgier that pushes, that makes you squirm, laugh, or cry within the same 10 minutes. Right. Um, that's, that seems to be too risky adventure right away, unless you get, like

you were saying, a U S star or a European star or European director or U S director wants to come on board. And then suddenly, oh, well now it's, now it's, uh, this is, wow, this is a 100% Canadian, aside from this one person. And look, there are obviously some series in Canada, like Heartland, like Murdoch mysteries that are successful, but they're speaking to an audience

that is, you know, an older audience. Um, and yet, you know, we're not in on Canadian broadcasters. We're not grabbing the audience of tomorrow, right? I mean, I think that that's a big problem that we're, we, we have nobody under the age of really, let's say 40, maybe 50 and under that are not gravitating to watching Canadian television. I agree with that. And, and, and,

but also I acknowledge the fact that like, you know, Murdoch, like, was it 17 seasons? 18 something like that. Yeah. I mean, you don't get to do that unless there's an audience base, like you're saying. So there, there, there is an appreciation for that. I just don't see the appreciation. I just don't see the desire to create the appreciation for the other stuff that we're talking about. It's like, okay, you've got Murdoch and you've got, you've got Heartland or whatever, you know, all of these things. And they're,

they are rock solid, right? 17, you don't go 17, 18 seasons, just making crap, right? You're, you're rock solid. You're doing whatever you're doing and you know, whether you like, whether I like it, you like it, doesn't matter. They have an audience. But what I don't see is that the willingness and the courage to just say, let's make something, let's make this other thing. And, um, yeah, I just, it makes me, it, every writer I'm talking to right now, it,

it breaks my heart that the CBC is the last place they want to pitch. It should be the first place you want to pitch. It should be the first place you want to pitch. It should be like, everybody should want to get in there. And it is like, it is the thing, it's like, well, you know, I guess we can pitch at CBC. Like it's, it is so, it's so hard to hear that from people. And I'm like, and when I sit down and I have drinks with people and they're telling me this, I go,

oh my God, this is so heartbreaking. Why, why isn't the public broadcaster that just gets money to make stuff they don't, that doesn't have to rely completely on a market system. Why aren't they doing more interesting stuff and not just the stuff for CBC gym and all of that, but like why, why not? Right. That's it. No, I, I, I, I dumbfounded by the development money that is being spent and the production money that's being spent on, uh, episodic television in this country that doesn't answer to the audience out

there. And you know, my kids and their friends, you know, in their twenties and, and, and so on are not watching Canadian television. They're watching Netflix. They're watching Paramount Plus, Apple, whatever, because they can't find anything on Canadian television that even remotely interest them. Well, I mean, I've got a 16 year old at home. So she, I don't, I don't think she's watched anything on it on Canadian television. Not, not a thing, but I mean, there's also, I think the industry is in this transformative phase. I mean,

YouTube has more people watching it than any of the streamers, any of the broadcasters. So there's something happening here. And in my opinion, the only way to really get ahold of anything is to take those risks, is to actually, you've got to be that, that a broadcaster should be bold and interesting and do things that nobody else, that you can't see any place else. Cause if you can see it someplace else like YouTube,

then you'll go to YouTube. I mean, I know I spend time on YouTube now more time probably than I do, um, watching, watching a lot of series. And I'm like, I'm like, Oh, I'm putting myself out of business. Okay. Great. But we, you know, we, we had, um, on our episode one, Jeremy LaLonde, who, you know, couldn't make anything happen in film and television. And he's created his own YouTube channel and it's become very successful. And, and we're seeing a lot of episodic shows being put on YouTube, um, that people, people are watching.

My daughter watches a show called the rookie on YouTube, YouTube. And she found this show. She watches it. Um, religiously she's watched all the episodes over and over and over again. Um, the, the people under 30 are generally gravitated to the internet and to YouTube. And you know, why doesn't a broadcaster, like, wake up and go, hmm, maybe we should, instead of putting it on traditional broadcasting,

why don't we put our show on YouTube? Well, I mean, I don't know how the legalities of that work, but I'm sure that there is an aspect of it. Like, they must be looking at it. I mean, they can't not be looking at the success of YouTube. Well, we know that Canadian television is years behind other countries as far as what's being made. Like we're way behind in as far as the the kind of television that we're making. Yes. You know, it's funny, I've been watching more shows in Australia,

Germany, uh, all of these, these, these kinds of shows more than I've been watching. Yeah. I watch, I watch Korean series. I watch Japanese series. I watch Israeli series. I watch Hungarian series like, and I watch it all on either Netflix or YouTube or whatever, because it's way more engaging for me to watch this stuff than what I can find in my own country. Well, and that's, and again, that to me,

that brings me back to the heartbreaking thing. It's like, I don't understand what the agenda is right now. And I don't, and what baffles me is, like it was about a month ago, I was having, I called up a bunch of different writers and stuff and just said, okay, let's have a drink. Let's have a coffee. Tell me what's going on in your life. And everybody was saying the same thing.

And we're picking on CBC right now, but I'll just like, we'll just keep doing it because why not? Like if we're bullies, we're just punching the same guy in the face 20 times. But they were all just saying like, what is, what is the point of this? Like why, why bother? And if you, if I don't have that TikTok following, if I don't have that YouTube following,

if I don't have that Instagram following, I'm not going to get a show. You know, I had one guy who was like, should I get my real estate license? And I was like, I don't know, maybe you should. Cause at least, you know, that's something. But like to think that people, I mean, I'm in my fifties, to think that like, that's it.

Like as I thought as an actor, okay, yeah, when I hit my fifties and sixties, things will slow down. But I didn't think on the writing and producing side that things would slow down. And I thought they would increase because, oh, look, I'm wise now, I'm look, I'm, I'm wise. Now I'm experienced in the industry. Sure. Certainly someone's going to want that.

And there are some people who want that, but they don't even want, I know, I know show runner types who've been asked to work in the, like I was saying before, work in the background while they put the Tik TOK people up front and call them the creators of a show. And that to me is so disrespectful. Um, it is so, it is shameful that they would do that and just squash the talent that they have instead of embracing it. And that's not not particularly that I'm not specifying CBC on that. So one thing I'm not saying that they're specifically on that,

although they have done it too, but it's, it should be shameful and there to, to not acknowledge the fact that, uh, we are, that there are creators and artists in the industry here. Yeah. Um, I had one, uh, very experienced show runner guy who's, who's still working and he's in his late sixties and he's still, he's still writing and doing stuff. And we were chatting one day and he went, you know what your problem is? And I was like, what? You're an artist.

And I, for a moment there, I actually was insulted by it. It was like, don't you, what, what the fuck you calling me an artist? I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, you know, I punched nine to five. I thought I worked my, and then it was like, well, why? And I thought about that later. Like, why can't you be an artist? Like why? And when I listen to interviews now on, on podcasts from filmmakers and stuff in the U S and in other countries, they all talk about themselves as artists. But if you do it here, somehow you're this elitist, um,

dreamer. Um, and so there seems to be this disrespect for that. Even the term that is connected to creativity that, um, pervades the industry here. And I only say here because that's the one I know the best and my luck reaching out to Germany, Luxembourg, Poland, all these other places is like I show them a project and they go, oh, that's really interesting. We should, we can get funding for this.

I'm like, oh, I thought I would have to show you like, you know, the audience break. I like it's very, very, very different vibe here. Right. And you know, I'm worried. I mean, I'm worried for where, where it's all going here. And the writers that are, you know, coming out of school and are, you know, having high hopes about getting employment and making shows and content in this country, they have no idea what they're getting themselves into.

Well, yeah. And that's, um, when people ask me like, what would you, what would you teach? What, what sort of lessons would you go? And I would say to the people, I said this earlier, like you, you can teach about the creativity part and, and that, but really, especially in Canada, like learn how to, how, how the business is run, because as a writer here, you're not just an artist, you are a businessman and you have to figure out a business person and you have to figure out how to sell,

how to fill out the obnoxious application forms for CMA. Four inch binder, four inch binder, what is the paperwork? Paperwork. Yeah. And, and it's so much paperwork. We were just talking about this earlier, like with the CMF, telefilm, all of the paperwork you have to do to get funding to do and try and make that creative project, it becomes, it's so exhausting. And then you go, oh, well, I guess I should just hire

an administrator and you realize, oh, the people who are working the most right now are just the people who know how to fill out the paperwork. And that's, I mean, I want them to work, but that shouldn't be all of the work. Yeah. And it's very, very frustrating. Yeah.

Marvin, it's a producer, Toronto Mike here. Avi said I could unmute my microphone. Thank you, Avi. Yeah. But I'm listening to this. It's both enlightening and infuriating. And I'm thinking if my kids were solid writers who wanted to work in, you know, film or television in this country, I would tell them to get the fuck out of Canada. Like listening to this,

it sounds like there is no future for, I mean, less than kind, by the way, I don't know if Avi said this was a fantastic show. Thank you. I'm wondering, because it wasn't touched on in your conversation here, like why did it have to end after four seasons? Well, I mean, that actually there were two reasons. One, the network was hesitating in going to number five. And that was an and on the creative side, it was it was about a kid coming of age in high school. And so even the last every season was another year in high school.

So by the fourth season, he was in high school. So by the fourth season he was graduating high school. So it was like, well, do we go to university now with him? Saved by the bell the college years. Yes. Well, and, and we were all, we were all at a point where it's like, well, you know, this cast member has passed away and we have to deal with all that. We were fine with wrapping it up. Um, but I will say this, that actually there has been some interest in possibly reboot booting the series There have been some discussions About and it's and it is sort of timeline wise we're thinking about oh

What would happen 15 years later to these to these characters? Like what what is it and you know, it's like I have my, my, my love hate relationship with Winnipeg. And so that's where I'm from. And so like, what would bring them all back together again in this, into, into this, into the coldest city I've ever lived in. Well, shout out to the weaker than's. Yes. Who were, uh, that was the other thing. I will say this, uh, and I don't know if, if, uh, all the,

if the series that do get to air do this, we spent so much time trying to find original music from original artists in Canada to try and put on the show. If I have a YouTube thing and I created a playlist of all of the music and I had my 16 year old listen to it and she likes it. And I hope because I'm not watching a lot of Canadian shows, I hope the Canadian shows are really out there looking for new sounds and new artists and new creatives that way to bring the music in there. We would spend hours just sitting there and listening to tunes to put in the show.

I would say to one of the frustrating things about making television, um, and you experience this firsthand is once the show is over, where can you find it? There's no distribution or there should be, but there isn't anybody doing that kind of thing. And you encountered this with less than kind where, you know, you kept pushing the main production company to like what's going on with sales outside of Canada, what's going on with offering it on VOD and everything like that? Why don't you talk about that?

Well, I mean, here's, I'm gonna talk about it, but I'm not a distributor. And I didn't know anything about distributing, but I will say that the people who had the distribution contract, and I believe they, there is negotiations right now to get it away from them, they haven't sent me a report in a ten years, right? So I don't know how they're still in business, right? most from my perspective what I see

distributors doing is getting money from the government agencies to go to festivals and agencies to go to festivals and not do anything and not report that they haven't done anything because that would take too long and you've got to have all these drinks and go to con and it's sunny. The paperwork's very distracting. Uh, and yeah, I, to me, most of the distributors that I, that I've had to deal with regarding this, are they, they're not distributors. They're just taking money. I know. Are they thieves? I don't know.

And you and I have had this conversation because of course, uh, I have a distribution company called Indycan and you know, I was very happy and I'd spoken to your co-producer in Winnipeg about getting this, the series up online in various platforms, but the rights are so wrapped up in bureaucracy and nonsense that it's impossible to get those rights back so that it can be exploited in other abilities. And so here's the thing. So yeah, just doing my own research, my distributor was in default on their contracts. So now it's, now it's kind of like, Oh, I'm sitting here going, well,

I guess I could hire a lawyer, uh, and go after them. That could cost me thousands of dollars. I, which I don't have just to throw around. And would the rights go to me or would they go to the other producers that are attached to the project who don't own the distribution rights right now, but they would probably inherit them if I like, I don't know all the legalities there. So it becomes this

thing where eventually as a creative on the creative side you just go I'm just gonna make a sandwich like I can't deal with all of this like I wasn't and that's why I say like if you're gonna be a writer like you but you better learn some of the legal stuff you better learn how to do that paperwork because when you need to know that, have that knowledge, it's too late. You have to have it before going in. And it's, you can depend on your agent for it, but some of them don't know it.

And so, and then you have to figure out like, well, what are my options here? Now, luckily, Buffalo Gal Pictures in Winnipeg is a very, is a very good company. And I think they're, they're trying to straighten everything out right now. And they've, I've, I've, I sometimes feel guilty because I just, I don't spend as much time dealing with the Winnipeg stuff that I should, because I have stronger connections there. Instead, I went to like Luxembourg in Germany. But I'm hoping right now that the less than kind stuff will get straightened out.

But what you're saying about distributors and everything here, they're just the people who know how to fill out the paperwork. I don't know if they actually know how to sell shows except for you. I mean, you're, you're completely different. I appreciate that. But I mean, you know, your show is no different than many other shows that have been made in this country, especially some of the older stuff like King of Kensington and some of these other things that have no exploitory exploitation anymore. The beachcombers, whatever, I can name hundreds of great shows made in this

country. Uh, when great shows were being made, um, that you can't find anywhere unless somebody somewhere has taken upon themselves to throw it up on YouTube illegally to allow people to watch it. Right. Uh, uh, less than Kind can be seen illegally on YouTube. Right. And I don't know if it's legal, because right now the distributor has it

on their YouTube website, but I haven't seen any money from that, so I don't know if people are watching it or not. The system's broken. Oh, 100%. Yeah, yeah. And also, because of the streaming, something like YouTube and things like that,

the system got expanded and no one knows what the fuck anything is anymore. Like nobody knows how things work or if they do, they're just keeping it secret. It's funny, the Writers Guild just this year, I got a check for, I guess you'd call them royalties for the writing on Less Than Kind from Spanish sales mostly that happened

almost 10 years ago. And I'm like, what? So where has this money been sitting for 10 years? Shouldn't there be interest on this? Like I have, but I was like But I was just surprised. I got the check and I didn't initially look at with the breakdown of where the funds came from. And I was like, oh, I thought it was for like one of these other two shows that I'd been on since then that are seen a little bit more. And then I was like, oh, it's from sales that

happened in Spain and Europe in 2014 or 2017. And I was like, oh, it's from sales that happened in Spain and Europe in 2014 or 2017. And I was like, that's like 10 years ago. Why, why am I just getting this check now? Right. Yeah. So, you know, I think it's almost time to wrap it up. Well, I need to know if there's any hope to fix this. Like we have a broken system. I've been, you know, listening for the last 45 minutes. It's infuriating.

Yeah, I think from for me, I think the system, the system needs to break further. And I think, you know, it's horrible to say that I think this that things need to explode so that we can all clean up the pieces and remake it the way it's supposed to be made. Or somebody really, really talented and who wants to make television gets in charge of those systems. And when I, you know, we're talking about the system CBC and all of the funding bodies that it becomes more of a creative based system instead of just relying on people who know how to fill out the forms properly. But also you and I spoke about this on the way here is the people that are making the decisions at the broadcasters

about which shows get made and which shows don't get made have never made a show in their life. And that to me is like is about is more about the merit system as well. Like get people in there who know about what the creative is and know how to define that and bring in the young people too, but as they have to apprentice, you have to learn it. It is a skill. It is, you have to develop that ear the same way you have to practice music and the same way you have to write to become a better writer. You have to be with people who know how to make shows so that you can make better shows.

But as you said earlier, Marvin, the broadcasters in this country are so risk averse, like they're so risk averse that it's all in the mushy middle. But part of that too is they're working with the same production companies over and over and over and over again. Alana Frank, I'm going to name names, a new metric like these companies, it's like the door is wide open to these broadcasters for them to pitch them anything at any time. And those same production companies are getting,

are the ones that are producing these shows. There's no, very rarely is there a new producer or production company that gets a green light on a new series. There's no, very rarely, is there a new producer or production company that it gets a green light on a new series? It's rare. And, um, it falls back into the same thing about risk taking. Like, you know, that's all great that it's the same old, same old, but is there, is there shows any good? Are they going to attract the audience for their particular broadcast for that

particular broadcaster? These questions never get answered at that level. And, um, it's, it's, it's shameful. But for me, all of that has to start at the top. Like there has to be somebody who says we are in a creative business. We want, let's make stuff that's really interesting and let's make stuff that will, that might piss people off, that might get people writing in.

I would think if I was the head of a network that really, that claimed to be, to, to care about the creative, that having someone write in about what they didn't like about a show or what they thought was offensive about a show, you could start a conversation. Let's have that conversation. Let's talk about what it is. Let's make that debate. Let's make stuff that's edgy and let, yeah. And you've got the Murdoch and all the other stuff in there. Like,

let's make stuff that's more interesting and not just about appealing to how many TikTok viewers this guy has. And I know there has to be a balance there. There's a business and marketing sense and it's all got to balance out, but the balance it's not balanced right now. It seems to all be about the, this math instead of the creative math. And that's of course, as a creative, I am biased in that.

And I would say more so now than ever before based on what's going on down south of the border that there is an opportunity there to create some really amazing fire content. But I would argue with you that we don't have to look just south of the border. There is a little swimming pool and you just jump across it and there's a whole bunch of other borders. I totally agree with you. And those borders have produced some really interesting stuff. And so part of me just hates the obsession that everything's about south.

And right now politically and everything, it be looking south of the border is a bit weird, but like there are other places to look for sure. And it's, it's just that we're not familiar with them. Well, we are, we are, but most producers in this country, when it comes to television are not interested in doing co-production with the UK or Ireland or Luxembourg or Germany or whatever. When Canada has more treaties than any other country in the world when it comes to production. Yet, we don't co-produce series with any of these countries, especially the UK, which is shocking.

I don't know the stats. I know there's a couple out there. Very few. But I can say like the most interesting, more of the interesting movies and more of the interesting series that I've watched in the last few years have all come not from south of the border, but from the east. From going across the water and just looking there.

And yeah, I have to read some subtitles sometimes, but you know what? I learned how to read pretty young, so I can do it. I learned how to read in a couple of languages. Right. Well, look, I mean, I think we could sit here all day and talk about all the shtick that we've and things that we feel about what's going on in Canadian television. And we're never going to get an answer to any of it.

But I truly appreciate you being on this podcast. I am. Um, and you're again, you're like mishpochah to me. And so refreshments or snacks though, I will say, you know, you could, I know, I know there is a, there is a, oh, well, do I, do I plug product placement product placement? Yeah. I would, you owe this guy some money. Yeah, I would you owe this guy some money Yeah, pick it up pick it up it's definitely worth your while this is amazing Thirst quenching great lakes beer Great Lakes beer. That's correct

a sponsor of T. Oh Mike But seriously though, thank you T O Mike. But seriously though, thank you, Marvin, for joining us today, for shedding some light on, you know, the television industry in our country and beyond. And I hope that maybe we can have you back to continue the conversation at a later date. And I wish you great success in some of the projects that I know that you're, you're, one of which with me. Let's go for it. Thanks again. And for all of you out there, thank you for paying attention to Unleashed and we hope that we'll see you next time. Have a great day. Ciao. And that brings us to the end of our 1641st show. Again, if you liked what you heard, subscribe to Unleashed, a producer's guide to indie

filmmaking by Avi Federgreen. Go to torontomike.com for all your Toronto Mike needs. Much love to those, much love to all who made this possible. That's Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, RecycleMyElectronics.ca, Building Toronto Skyline and Ridley Funeral Home. See you all tomorrow when my special guest is the radical Reverend Sherry DeNovo. I'm gonna be a star I'm gonna be a star I'm gonna be a star I'm gonna be a star I'm gonna be a star I'm gonna be a star

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