Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Mary Hynes and Steve Paikin: Toronto Mike'd #1376

Episode Date: November 28, 2023

In this 1376th episode of Toronto Mike'd, Mike chats with Mary Hynes about her tremendous career at the Globe and Mail, TVO and CBC Radio One, her late husband Randy Starkman, and why she's retiring from CBC and Tapestry. Steve Paikin joins her as they share stories about working together at TVO. Steve also updates us on the labour situation at TVO, the status of The Agenda, and we pay tribute to his late mother Marnie. Toronto Mike'd is proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, Ridley Funeral Home, Electronic Products Recycling Association, Raymond James Canada and Moneris. If you would like to support the show, we do have partner opportunities available. Please email Toronto Mike at [e-mail]

This is TV Ontario, Channel 19 in Toronto, Channel 18 in London. Welcome to episode 1376 of Toronto Mic'd. Proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery. A fiercely independent craft brewery who believes in supporting communities, good times and brewing amazing beer. Order online for free local home delivery in the GTA. Palma Pasta. Enjoy the taste of fresh, homemade Italian pasta and entrees from Palma Pasta in Mississauga and Oakville. RecycleMyElectronics.ca.

Committing to our planet's future means properly recycling our electronics of the past the advantaged investor podcast from raymond james canada valuable perspective for canadian investors who want to remain knowledgeable informed and focused on long-term success season five of yes we are open an award-winning podcast for maneris, hosted by FOTM Al Grego and Ridley Funeral Home, pillars of the community since 1921. Today, making her Toronto mic debut is Mary Hines. Welcome, Mary. Thank you, Mike. It's great to be here.

And I'm going to get you like a titch closer to the mic here. Okay, I won't smash your face. Yeah, you, Mike. It's great to be here. And I'm going to get you like a titch closer to the mic here. Okay, I won't smash your face. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you need to crank me up a little bit? No, you sound great. Those pipes. I know those pipes. I feel like I'm in the presence of greatness. What a pleasure it is to meet you. I'm delighted to be here. The pleasure is mine. Thank you. And I'd like to introduce you to my co-host. Steve Paken is in the house. How are you, Steve? All the better for being with you, Mike.

Oh, do you say that to all the podcast hosts that you hang with? I think you're the only one I hang with. Is that right? I'm going to Google that and make sure that's true because I've heard stories. Okay, so Steve, we got a little catching up to do. There's been a lot since you were last here, but you were last year when you brought John Michael McGrath into my basement. Right. That's right. When was that? Was that September? Well, the strike was in its early... I don't know. How long did that strike go?

11 weeks. 11 weeks. I feel like you were five weeks deep into that strike. Okay. And by the way, congrats on getting back to work. Yeah. I'm glad it's over. You ever been on strike, Mike? No. I've never been part of anything that could strike.

I guess no union involved. That's the way to do it. Mary, have you been on strike? I've been locked out. You've been locked out. There was a CBC lockout. When was that? 2006, 2008.

Yeah, which is brutal in slightly different ways and not fun. No, but Steve, you guys went on strike and it got resolved. What kind of deal did you strike? You want to give us the details? Are you happy with how things were resolved? I'm happy it's over. Let's put it that way. I don't think, you know, it's like any workplace dispute.

I think, you know, everybody had to put a little water in their wine, and we finally got to the finish line, and good. Let's get back to work. So you brought me Michael, sorry, John Michael McGrath, and I loved meeting him. That was a wonderful experience. We snuck in, like, an episode of your Agenda podcast. What's that podcast you have called?

The On Polly podcast, named after the hashtag for Ontario politics. Of course. And yeah, we did a little, I wouldn't say we did an episode with you here. Of course not. That would violate all these rules. We just talked about the subject. We had a chat. We're back in business. McGrath and I are back in business. We've had two episodes drop

since the strike ended. Is that the technical term you use in podcasting? Yeah, that's what I say. Dropped? Okay. Yeah, so we're back in business with that and we're back writing columns and the TV show may take a little longer to get back in business. But this time you brought me Mary Hines. This is very exciting to me, Mary. I hear your voice. I heard it on the weekend. Get out. Are you listening? I'm a CBC Radio 1 guy, and I hear tapestry, and I hear voice. And when I met you in the driveway, and again, this is like the second time where I come home from a bike ride, and my guest was waiting for me.

And I'm actually sitting here nervous, because the first time that happened was Molly Johnson. So this is the second time, so I'm just hoping things go better this time. Yeah, that didn't go well, as I recall. No, it didn't go well, but so far, so good. How could it not have gone well? You've got you, you've got Molly Johnson. You'll have to listen, Mary. Mary, this is your homework, okay?

Okay. You're going to listen to Molly Johnson on tour. This is harder than I thought. You're going to get back to me here. But Mary, I pulled a song because we're going to get to know you better, and then Steve, as you can imagine, I have more questions for you. Are you going to tell people that Mary and I actually worked together 29 years ago, or

do they have to wait? This is your job. Okay. So how do you know Mary, Steve? Oh, thanks for asking, Mike. Smooth. Mary and I used to do a show at TVO 29 years ago. 27? 27.

Get it right, Steve. No, no, no. Hang on a sec. Because I started at TVO 31 years ago, and the first two years I did Between the Lines and Fourth Reading. And then two years into my time there, you came along. 1994 is when it started. So you know what? I'm thinking of the end.

You're thinking. Right. No, no, no. Which you were doing from the beginning. Do you edit this heavily? That's not going to happen. This isn't tapestry. No, you're absolutely right.

And I was thinking we should plan something for the 30th, which is coming up. That's right. Because we were in 1994. September 1994, we went on the air. So next September of 2024, you're right, we're going to plan something. I was thinking 27 because I was nine months pregnant when we wrapped. Yes. So that's always on my mind when I think of studio.

And what is that baby doing now? That baby is a historian in training. You can do better than that. That baby is a PhD student at Yale University. Wow. Okay. Wow. How about that? Mary's is a PhD student at Yale University. Wow. Okay. Wow. How about that?

Mary's bearing the lead here. Yeah, no kidding. Okay, here's why. That apple fell so far from the tree. It's in a different orchard. I did not get any kind of higher education. Now, Steve, my plan was, of course, my plan was to talk about Mary pre-TVO,

and then when we get her to TVO, get all those details about working with you, what that was like, what you guys did together. So I'll pass this back over to my co-host. But you can interject. I don't want you to hesitate. If you have a thought of something you want to ask Mary about, you are my co-host here. And don't worry about trampling all over me. Because we had met before. Yes, for sure my co-host here, and don't worry about trampling all over me. Because we had met before Studio 2. Yeah, for sure.

So let's start, though. Obviously, I want to talk about The Globe and Mail, but Mary. Oh, he's good. Mary, of course I want to talk about The Globe and Mail. Come on. Oh, on that note, maybe before we dive into the ongoing history of Mary Hines, a moment here, because I just said the Globe and Mail, and there's a gentleman named Norris McDonald. Oh, yes.

Do you know the name Norris McDonald? I absolutely do. The fabulous motorsports guy from the Toronto Star for so many years. So what I'd like to do is, we're now, what is this, late November. Last December, there was a Toronto Mike listener experience at Palmas Kitchen in Mississauga. Steve, you weren't there. You're going to come out to this one?

It's on December 9th. I went to the Great Lakes Brewery one. You were at the last one. That was amazing. You had the summit with Mark Weisblatt. I did. You going to tell us what you talked about? No.

Between the two of us. That's what everybody wants to know. Mary just wants to know who Mark Weisblatt is. I just want an invitation to the next Great Lakes Brewery event. Well, that is, trust me, you're going to get one. But I will just, before I talk about. Watch out what you wish for. Yeah, we are going to collect again on December 9th.

Steve, you should come. You know why? Stephen Brunt and Tom Wilson are coming out to TMLX 14 on December 9th. And if I showed up, you'd have three Hamiltonians there. Well, this is why I'm saying it, because you're a proud Hamiltonian. And you know what? Tomson and i yeah same birthday but but not the same year no he's got 10 years on you no he's got one year on me is that right one year on me yeah the year before okay well tom wilson and stephen brunt i was at a concert in hamilton on the uh weekend i saw sky

diggers and then i see i'm in one the front left the corner and then the opposite corner the back right tom wilson's there so afterwards i'm chatting up tom wilson and then a nice woman comes up to me and goes you're toronto mike and i go yes how are you and then she starts telling me my husband is stephen brunt so stephen was genie yes i guess so unless he has more than one wife so i don't know i don't ask these questions but bottom line is... Mary and I both know Jeannie. So she was at the Sky Diggers. Steven wasn't there. He had to dog sit or something like that.

But the bottom line is, this is a long-winded way of saying that Tom Wilson and Steven Brunt will be at TMLX 14 on December 9th from noon to 3 at Palma's Kitchen. We'll get Palma pasta and we'll get Great Lakes beer. You should both come. Oh. And if I were not on a flight to Florida that very day with my dad, I wouldn't come. What an excuse. Okay, that is a good excuse.

So now to get serious, not that we're not serious about that, that's important too, but the last TMLX event at Palma's Kitchen was in December 2022. And Perry Lefkoe, who's an FOTM much like you two, you know the name Perry Lefkoe? He's an FOTM, much like you two. Oh, man. You know the name Perry Lefkoe? He was a friend of

my husband's, Randy Starkman. Two sports reporters. I don't know Perry, but I've heard the name a million times thanks to Rand. Wow. Okay, so there's going to be a lot of this. In fact, we could probably do a whole episode about your husband there.

So Perry Lefkoe, whose brother is Elliot Lefkoe, who's like a famous concert promot and in fact we could do we could probably do a whole episode about your your husband there but so perry lefkoe whose brother is elliot lefkoe who's like a famous uh concert promoter in this city uh he's in the new lowest of the low documentary we'll close this episode of lowest of low but tmlx 11 yes at palma's kitchen last december perry brings his mentor nor Norris McDonald. So I'm going to play a clip of that. Norris, how are you doing, sir? How are you doing? I'm doing fine. And listen, congratulations. Great show.

And a pleasure to be here today. Did he have to twist your arm to get you here? Not really. You just heard there was free food. Not really. That always does it. That's Terry. He said, come, we'll have sandwiches. What did you eat, by the way?

What did you get? As a matter of fact, I got a drink. Well, you're missing out, buddy. There's some nourishment down there. However, I'm delighted because I'm Dave Epple. I've been listening and watching him for years. Oh, Mike Epple? Mike Epple, sorry.

It's great because Dave Schultz and Mike Epple merge and they become like a transformer, Dave Epple. And I worked with Dave Schultz. Okay, at the Globe? At the Globe and Mail, you know. He was there forever. When they said, okay, guys, we're going to have involuntary buyouts, he leapt six feet in the air.

He had never had such energy. He was very excited. Since you were the editor of Wheels, is that what it was? Yeah. What's your favorite car? What's your personal favorite? Yes, if you could have any car right now. Whichever, like Corvette. What year?

Oh, there's a new one just out and so consequently we're looking at 2022. Oh, really? With 2023, yeah.

Gotcha. Everybody says Lamborghini and Ferrari and all the rest, but give me good North American iron and, you know.

And color. Do you have a favorite color? Red. Yeah, it's got to be red, right? By the way, Toronto star writer Ben Rayner just walked in right now. And for a minute, I thought Ed Vedder was here. Just for a minute. Norris, thank you for being here, buddy.

You're now an FOTM. You're a friend of Toronto Mike. Well, thank you very much. And I hate to say it, I've been dominating this. No, no, no. We've never heard from you before and I've heard way too much Lefkoe. Lefkoe. I'm always happy to put over Norris

as they say in wrestling. Great guy. Thank you Perry Lefkoe man. You're a good FOTM. Love it. And thank you for bringing Norris. Great Toronto Star writer. I love your sweater buddy. I was going to say, I always take the opportunity to plug the product. Love it.

Thank you guys so much. Norris, that's amazing to hear from you. And Perry, stick around afterwards. We'll chat, man. But you're a sweetheart. You're a sweetheart. All right. Thanks, man.

Ciao, Bella. All right. Norris McDonald. That was him last December at at tmlx 11 i got the very sad news yesterday morning norris passed away at the age of 82 oh no i didn't know and i've been getting notes so i wrote about it yesterday morning and then i've been getting notes from people who he mentored me at you know the paper he was one of those old school newspaper editors and everybody loved norris mc And I had that brief encounter with him just last December. Anyway, sad news. Yeah, 82 years old. And then what I did,

I phoned Perry Lefkoe, who considered Norris a mentor. And we had a chat that I recorded for the Ridley Funeral Home Memorial episode I'll drop at the end of the month. It's almost the end of the month now. So in a few days, I'll drop this episode and we'll hear Perry and I talking about the legend that was Norris McDonald. Norris was a mentor to my nephew, Bryce Turner. I mean, was just so kind and so generous, you know, with young people starting up in the business, especially kids with that motorsports love, because that's a real niche. Right. Right. So there is some sad news there, but I just wanted to pay tribute to Norris. And

I thought you guys might have a connection because it's such a small world, right? This Canadian media landscape, it's so small. Everything connects. Especially the sports end of it. So tell me, when did you, Mary, realize you wanted to be a journalist? Like, I want to get you to the globe, but what kind of sparked that passion? I think it was just a love of a love of copy editing i just love to take kind of a crappy piece of writing and make it a little better whether it's mine or somebody else's you enjoyed working with steve pick and that

too easy i'm almost ashamed i did that i'm sorry oh Steve. Oh, no. But, yeah. No, still, I haven't seen a lot of your writing. I've seen a lot of your other talents on display. Well, we co-hosted, so I didn't write things. Yeah. Okay, let's get you to TVO, Mary. This is my goal now. I've got to get you to TVO. No, we're not going to skip a thing.

I loved working in that sports department. We're not skipping anything. All right. You know, I just, Dave Schultz. The reason that I mentioned Dave Schultz, some context is that Dave was the guy in the mic just before Norris and Perry. So Dave Schultz had just come on the mic

to talk about how much he's loving retirement. He's still loving retirement. He's a very happily retired. Retirement is a word we'll use soon, Mary. Hang in there okay soon enough so wow we're getting there okay i'm kidding so back to mary hines this is your toronto mic debut i need all the details okay okay uh so is this the yeah just yeah just tell me about stirrings of journalism well i i remember i remember landing at the you know we were all

graduating into the big recession of 1982. So I remember thinking, I'm never even going to get a summer job in this business, much less be able to make a living from it. And sure enough, was lucky enough to land at that Globe and Mail summer internship program. And they fired us all in July. Interns, who lets interns go? Because it was a cost-cutting measure, and we were making, you know, I think $1.50 a week or something.

I don't remember the exact sum. It was probably close to minimum wage. Oh, it would have been. Okay, so whatever minimum wage was. I don't think we were making minimum wage. And they let all the interns go in July. Wow. And it felt like a self-fulfilling prophecy.

It's like, yeah, I'm doomed. Like I'm never going to be. And I remember a cousin of mine whom I adore, but very cutting sense of humor. And he said, Mary, the closest you're ever going to get to journalism is a paper route. Which is a great line. I love it. I've stolen it. But things, you know, you cobble things together over the years and things, I don't know, sometimes things work out and that's what it's felt like. Okay, so how do you,

did you love sports from the get-go? You're a sports reporter from the world of now. Yeah, I loved sports from the get-go, but Randy brought me into sports journalism because we had met at United Press Canada, which was the Canadian arm of UPI, the wire service. He was the sports guy.

I was on the radio wire. And we were applying for a job as a freelance job covering sports overseas. And we were applying for it together. But I'd never worked in sports despite being a sports fanatic. I used to read religiously. Do you remember Sport Magazineatic, my whole, I used to like read religiously. Do you remember Sport Magazine? Of course. It was the competitor to Sports Illustrated.

I thought it was better. And I just had, I just had these kind of manic, passionate fan experiences, some of them driven by Sport Magazine. So I was a real fan, but I remember Randy and I ended up getting this job. I remember sitting on a curb on a sidewalk in Berlin,

literally in tears because we had just covered Gay Tambouché at a speed skating event. We had the result sheet and I didn't know what to do with it. I thought, I don't know how to turn this into sports journalism. Like I had kind of psyched myself out and okay, Rand knows how to do this. I don't know how to be a sports reporter. And I look back now and I think, oh honey, like that was the most formulaic kind of writing you could have been asked to do. It wasn't that

hard, but I'd built it up into, okay, he's the sports guy. I don't know how to do this. What am I supposed to do? Like I know I've got his time here he's the sports guy. I don't know how to do this. What am I supposed to do? Like, I know I've got his time here. I have his result. I don't know how to make this into the thing it's supposed to be. You figured it out, Mare. At some point, I guess. You fake it till you make it.

I wish I had known that then. Yeah. I know that now. You know that now. I know we started by a little sad note. We're actually, this is quite an episode of Toronto Mic Day. I realize we're going to close on a sad note. We opened a little sad note. We're actually, it was quite an episode of Toronto Mike Day. I realized we're going to close on a sad note. We opened on a sad note,

but I mean, why are we here? We're crying all afternoon. And your, your, your husband, like, I'm so sorry for your loss.

Cause I was, I grew up as a Toronto star household. This was so, so, and I sport, I went to the straight to the sports section and I had to search. I knew Randy had passed away far too young but you know when you're young and you see that number it seems further away because I can like reach out and touch that

number and my goodness gracious Randy Starkman gone at 51 years it's not it's not okay nothing about this is okay sorry like Mary that's awful like even now you know we we just passed um 11 years last april of having lost him and even now nothing about it is okay and it's not some really um and this may be of use to you dear as you navigate some losses at the moment the the best bit of guidance i heard was okay it's not linear it's going to be really cyclical at one point you're going to be feeling okay it's fine i'm not's going to be really cyclical. At one point, you're going to be feeling, okay, it's fine. I'm not over it, but I'm functioning and I'm fine. And then a couple of weeks later, you are going to be like just in the depths of it to a degree that you just can't see daylight again. So it's a bit, it's more like a spiral than a linear thing. You don't reach a point where, okay, I'm far enough removed from this event that it's fine.

Yeah, nothing about it is okay. He's my Ruby. He's always going to be my Ruby. I'm wearing both wedding rings, his and mine, you know? Beautiful. Mary doesn't like to brag about her daughter, but her daughter is extraordinary. And your daughter was how old when your husband died? 15.

15. She gave the most extraordinary eulogy at Randy's funeral. Wow. And it was, what was amazing about it was that the kid at age 15 got up there and was alternatively funny, thoughtful, heartfelt, emotional. I mean, she touched every base and it was extraordinary. I mean, 11 years later, I remember it like it was yesterday. So what nobody knows is the night before I said, sweetie, please don't do this. You have no idea how hard it's going to be to get up in front of, you know, what turned out to be a thousand plus people. And I knew the depth of the loss for her. And I said, please, you don't need to do this.

And in fact, I hope you won't do it because it's going to be impossible. And she shut that shit down. She's always been very strong-willed in a really cool way. And she said, I'm doing it for Papa. And it was like end of discussion. And you're right.

She got up there. She nailed it there. They ran clips on As It Happens. They had marnie mcbean on talking about it and they marnie mcbean they didn't run there was no recording there but they ran up marnie mcbean talking about this eulogy and ella at one point talked about how she had to grow up randy would read to her just incessantly every night before bed at times during the day. She said, cause I had to grow up without television, hippie parents, just rolling her eyes. I mean, she just, it was just, it was remarkable to me to see it because it was such a beautiful

tribute because Rand would have loved it. He what a um he he once won christmas i have this i have boy this is a detour i'm sorry guys no this is literally this is what we do i love being in this space you've created i have a picture um this was a christmas present for me one year it's five little pictures of ella, you know, toddler, little older, little older, little older. And each, the body beneath each head is a different kind of hammer, you know, like a ball peen hammer. And the whole thing is situated, Randy, he created this and everything is situated in a paper bag. And the headline of it is our little bag of hammers she hates this she hates right but it's you know he loved how um kind of honestly random she's been a real character since

she was tiny personality so so much personality an excess of personality perhaps and rand was in many ways the same way she we joke about her being quite a clone of his so i think he just would have delighted in the fact that she was making people cry but man first she was going to make them laugh and she did yeah yeah yeah it was beautiful thank you for remembering that it was brilliant it was absolutely and never never mind like of course daughters can eulogize their fathers and do a good job of it but at 15 to be that good and that poised

at 15 was extraordinary you know what though and this also this also touches on that ability of hers but it also touches on just how I want to ring her neck sometimes Randy was at the Commonwealth

Games in, I think it was Commonwealth Games in New Delhi and he had won the Sportswriter of the Year award and we went to the banquet and Ella was accepting the award on his behalf. So we're at a table with, you know, Fred Walker and Brian Williams, Marcelo Bou is there. He was still connected with the Quebec Nordique. And she gets up and it's the same kid you saw eulogize Randy at his funeral. She's speaking beautifully. You know, my dad can't be here. He's at the Commonwealth Games and she's going on and on and on. She comes back to the table and Brian Williams and Fred Walker, you know, two of the greats in broadcasting, both say to her, you know, there's Brian Williams saying, young lady, I could certainly never have done that when I was your age. And gracious, gracious Fred is saying, Ella, that was beautifully done. And she turns to me and she's mad as hell.

She's saying, do they think I'm an idiot? Like, why is everybody so surprised that i can get up there and talk and i and then marcelle making matters worse i'm i'm so proud marcello boo comes over he says young lady i'm here for your papa and i wish he were here and i want you to come work for me someday and then of course she turns around to me does he think i'm an idiot too? Why are all these, to her, elderly men so surprised that she is speaking with some degree of confidence and self-possession? And I'm saying, sweetie.

They're fairly rare characteristics in kids your age. And also, you don't know these individuals. Can I just tell you, you've just received a beautiful set of compliments. Can you just shut up and take the compliment? Take the compliment. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, just be gracious for a minute. You don't have to receive everything as an insult, maybe.

Well, Mary, I'm glad we can talk a little about Randy Starkman here, only because, you know, if Randy were still with us, without a doubt, he would have been on Toronto Mic'd already. I mean, without a doubt, Dave Perkins has been over many times.

Oh, I love Perky. Perky, Damien Cox comes over all the time. He's coming over again. Kevin McGrann's been over. Like, I mean, the Toronto Star Sports Department.

It was epic. It's just, absolutely. And I'm thinking, you know, during the Ben Johnson scandal and everything and your husband's work on that, that file, unbelievable. Okay.

Can I just say. Anything. I beat him to that punch. Right. Let's say it in more detail. I mean, he had the worldwide exclusive, the worldwide exclusive of when Ben tested positive again, the couple of years later after the suspension, but at the Seoul Olympics in 1988, this was awful. We were competitors. He was working at the star.

I was working at the globe. And that was nearly the end of us. I want to say we like, we were as solid as it is possible to be, I think on the romance front. And if you take two really conscientious, dogged reporters and put them at competing sections of a newspaper, especially when those sections are kind of, they're both really vigorous and strong, but always vaguely under threat. And so the competition is really heated. We could not have stayed him at the Star and me at the Globe

and continued to thrive. We were pretty open about this. Anyway, Seoul Olympics, Ben is the toast of the world. I'm in a payphone booth phoning the desk. It's about midnight. I've just come from a basketball game, a Team Canada basketball game, I think. from a basketball game, a Team Canada basketball game, I think.

And I'm speaking to my sports editor and Gianni Merlo, who is like the dean of the world press corps, comes by Corriere, I think Corriere della Stampa in Italy. And he comes by the phone booth and he was really plugged in with NBC television and NBC television got the leak. And he leans over to me.

He, he, we knew Johnny very well because we all covered the world cup ski circuit together. And he called us Valentina and Valentino because we were together. We were together. He leans into the phone with Valentina. You have heard what Ben Johnson,

positive dope test. I said, I can't out. And so it, it was not, no whisper of that was public yet. And Gianni Merlo was privy to it because of his NBC connection. And the Globe still had the Bulldog edition. So I was able to say to my sports editor on the phone,

wow, okay, I've just been told from a really reliable source, Ben Johnson has failed his drug test, and things moved on from there at the Globe, and Randy was really pissed off because the Globe edition was going to hit the streets a couple of hours before the Stars edition. But, of course, we couldn't have gone just on the strength of Gianni Merlo tells me.

So we all had to wait for confirmation, which was still a few hours away. But yeah, we were always so competitive when we were working against one another. And zero out of 10, do not recommend. I think that's a painful way to be in love with a competitor. That's quite the story though, Mary, about getting the tip. You know, you can't publish it, I guess,

you need to corroborate that. And, you know, you guys have your journalism awards. That's what makes you such good journalists. But it's kind of amazing to hear how you got wind of that story. And you had it first in Canada. Well, I mean, it would have been hours later that it went to press, but it was very cool to be able to be on the phone with a sports editor and say, and he's hearing it from me.

You know, he's not seeing it on the wire. He's not even seeing it on the international wires. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's way too boastful. We need to cut this out. No, I've never said that out loud. Like, that's just, that's not okay. Oh, lean in.

Come on, Mary. Lean in. Speaking of Mary's, quickly, I'd shout out a couple of other longtime Toronto Star sports scribes who have been here on Toronto Mic. Mary Ormsby and Paul Hunter. So they came on together. Sweet.

Another husband-wife team. Another husband-wife team. But at the same paper. I hasten to add. Yes, makes a difference. Makes a huge difference. Not sustainable, I think. Unless, you know, maybe if you're not competitive as a reporter, maybe if you don't have that instinct, and maybe if you're not competitive as a reporter maybe if you

don't have that instinct and maybe if you're or different sections maybe that might make a different sections would be fine yeah and I think Randy and I both had a certain insecurity about the work we all it didn't matter how um long we had done it we felt like we were continually having to prove ourselves it's a good way to be. It is, and it's exhausting. Yes. And so I think even if just one of us had been laid back about work and thought, yeah, it's good enough, I'm good enough, I'll mail it in, that might have been sustainable.

But two people who are always, and I must say, particularly the Star Sports Department didn't help in this regard because it was very much a what have you done for us lately place. I'm not sure the Globe was my, like, that's the nature of daily sports journalism, though, right? Like, it is what have you done for us lately. Well, I'm wondering if you could name, I mean, we just heard the name David Schultz earlier, but can you name check anybody else that you worked with in the Globe and Mail Sports Department? Oh, yes. Stephen Brunt was there when I was there. Is that such a small world, Steve?

Like, you know, we just, oh, yeah. Stephen Brunt's wife. Bill Houston, would he have been there? Bill Houston would have been there. Yep. Bill Houston was there. Don't get me started on Bill Houston. I think he lost his marbles at some point, but shout out to Bill Houston.

Call your lawyer, Mike. You're about to get sued. Laura Monickman, you're listening right now. Jim Christie was there doing all the amateur sports stuff. Yeah, no, it was a fabulous department.

And I just, because, you know, news of my next phase has started to trickle out, I just got an email from my first sports editor at the Globe, Murray Campbell.

Oh my gosh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just saw him the other day. Did you really? Yeah, bumped into him at something the other day. Did you ever work with a Gare Joyce at the Globe and Mail? Oh, you know what? I didn't at the Globe, but Gare and I did briefly a sports panel together for the local afternoon show at CBC Radio.

We were two panelists, and I was like, we might have been the only two, I think. And that's when our paths crossed, because he was such a beautiful writer. I remember he was doing a lot of magazine stuff. Yes. He's Brunt-esque in his writing. He was wonderful. Yeah. Yeah.

So that's how I know Gare because we were doing the sports guy thing. You want to talk about Marty York? Yes. Can we talk about Marty York? Who is an FOTM as well. He's been here. Oh, I was wondering how he is, because I've completely

lost track of him. He's doing work with, I hope I say this correctly, Stephen Paikin. Benay Brith? Benay Brith. See, I did butcher it. Benay Brith. So he does work with them. Sorry, I should have let you You're the legit guy here. I turned to Paikin on that one, Mary. Copy editing again.

There we go. But hey, I was close, right? That was close. You were very close. I only ever see it written. I never hear it said. So it's like I'm trying to guess on the fly how you say it. But he works with them, and I think he's doing all right. He makes a ruckus on Twitter about how much he hates Rodgers and the Blow Jays, as he calls them.

Oh, man. Yeah, he's tough on them. Tough on the local sports scene. They can go, I don't know, they can win 162 games next season, and he'll tell you they're overrated. That's true. Do you know, one of my favorite lines ever had a Marty York

component to it. It was Alan Abel. Remember the sports columnist at the Globe? And he was covering something from China, and the initials were the CFL, and his lead was 3,000 miles away from Marty York, there's a scandal were the CFL and his lead was 3,000 miles away from Marty York. There's a scandal in the CFL.

And you never name check your, your colleagues in the newspaper, right? But everybody got it. And it was just, it was classic. Oh my God. The,

the Marty York stories are classic. Okay. Now, why do you end up at TVO helping to launch Studio 2? Like what happens at the Globe and Mail that causes you to leave the Globe and Mail? So at the Globe and Mail, I get a call from CBC Radio and the epic Mark Lee is leaving the Inside Track and they want to know if I'd be interested in hosting the Inside Track. and that was it was that's a lovely kind of phone call to get but at the time i was covering the dubbin inquiry for the globe which was the judicial inquiry stemming from ben johnson's positive drug test another hamiltonian uh charlie dubbin you know we asked him if he would marry us

he had to he had to gently we knew nothing he's's allowed to, isn't he? No, he was not. Oh, he was not. And he had to come back to us and say, he said, like, I'm not that kind of judge. I was so embarrassed. Steve, I thought the same thing. Yeah, no, thank you. Thank you, guys. I feel better. And the domino, like that was, oh man, apart from covering actual Olympics, I don't think I've had an assignment that I loved more because it was sports and philosophy and ethics and science and chemistry. It was a clinic in everything, every day. And I had to leave the Dublin Inquiry to go to work at CBC Radio. And I literally cried because I just thought, how am I leaving this?

Anyway, went to the inside track, did it for five years. And at that point had done sports for almost 10 years. And I think I was feeling a bit restless. And this TV thing comes along. Peter Herndorf called. And I had left the inside tracks. I thought, okay, I remember the epiphany was kind of, wow, I have nothing left to say about the grey cup like I just I don't like I'm empty I just not that I'd done it all but I

didn't feel that I could bring a lot of enthusiasm to it going on past the 10 years in sports and the five years at the track and the tv thing just felt don't know, like exhilarating and weird enough. And I knew Steve at that point and loved him. So I thought, well, this could be, this could be kind of cool. And despite knowing me, she wasn't dissuaded from going for the job. You're stealing my line, Steve. Come on. Okay.

Quick, quick aside before we come, but now we can do a deeper dive into the TVO and I got a little clip and everything, but I got an email from Steve Pagan and I did read it twice to make sure it's fit for public consumption. And it is, but Steve was saying any show that mentions, again, this is an aside, any show that mentions Peter Kent,

Trilby Kent, Sillick Kent, Peter Horndorf, and Steve Pagan has got to be worth listening to. You enjoy the Arthur Kent. No, Peter. You had Peter Kent on. I know.

I'm reading your note, and it says Arthur. Of course, I had Peter Kent on. This scud stud has not made his debut yet. But Peter Kent, you enjoyed that episode of Toronto Mike Steve. I did, yeah. It just dropped. Dropped? There's that word again.

Just dropped, what, a few days ago? Friday. I think I listened to it the day it dropped. Friday, and I will say, I loved it too. We did 90 minutes, maybe closer to 100 minutes. Peter Kent. And he's got that great media career. And then he's got the political career. And I was fascinated. What a story that man can tell. And he's lived quite the life. And Peter Kent was there. And he was there. And you were surprised because at the very end I asked him how old

he is, which you know is not a nice thing to say sometimes in this society, but I'm like, how old are you? And he said he's over 80. So there you go. I don't think he said that. Well, he said four score. He said I'm over four score. I did the math. Only Peter Kent talks like that. Mike, you just missed something there. What did I miss? Mary dropped some Yiddish

on you there. You just missed that. It was sotto voce. It was off mic. I missed it. Remember, I recorded with Mark Hebbshire for five years, and he dropped Yiddish on the rig. So I'm just used to it now in regular conversation. So I only brought up your nice note about the Peter Kent episode

because we referenced Peter Herndorf again. And when he passed away, of course, I talked to you, Steve, about him for the memorial episode of Toronto Mike that month. Well, I guess Peter, in a very real way, brought Mary and me together because he had hired me in 1992 with a view eventually to doing a daily current affairs program on TVO, which had never been done before. And then once we started, Mary Hines was brought in as well.

So Peter sort of, I mean, we knew each other before, but Peter kept us together. And not Peter Kent, Peter Herndorf. Peter Herndorf. Peter Herndorf. Yeah. Hired us both. Yeah.

Wow. And Mary was my first TV wife as a result. Oh my God. Okay, so how long did you two co-host together? Two seasons, two years. Right, 94. Okay, so how long did you two co-host together? Two seasons. Two years. Right, 94 to 96, I suppose. 94 to... Math is hard. 94 to...

Yeah, 94 to 96. Exactly. That's right. Nailed it. Okay. We'll have to do a 30th. Yeah, next year. A big party, yeah. It's in my calendar. Okay, cool. Seriously, I wrote it down already. I'm going to organize it. Lovely. Okay, so now I'm going to play a clip of Mary Hines at TVO. Oh, beautiful.

It was hard to find, actually, but here's a little taste of how Mary sounded on TV Ontario. You make the argument in pale blue dot that it's time to hit the road again, skyward, as in space, travel, exploration, perhaps colonies, for the very salvation of the species. How is that? Well, first off, as you suggest, we are a wandering species. We come from hunter-gatherers. We are nomads. And for the million years that the human family has been around,

that was our lifestyle. That must be built into us deeply. It's only the last 10,000 years that we've had a settled and sedentary existence. And now the Earth is all explored. Our exploratory instincts are unfulfilled. And I think many people, I recognize not all, but many people would long for real exploration of

real new worlds, even vicariously. Secondly, while I don't for a moment suggest that the Earth is a disposable planet, it is nevertheless true that we humans are now a danger to ourselves. Our technology really can cause enormous insults on the environment that protects us, especially the atmosphere. And therefore, if we were concerned, had a prudent regard for the long-term well-being of our species, we would hedge our bets, or as conservatives like to say, we would diversify our portfolios. We would put self-sustaining human communities on many worlds, so if the worst happens, there would be an outpost of us somewhere else. Isn't the danger in that thinking, though, that we come to regard the Earth as disposable?

Well, we've found this nest, let's move on to the next. It's a very good question. And by the way, even birds know not to foul their nests. How come we don't know that? But the argument you just presented would be true if it were an either-or situation. But in fact, the cost of moving out into space, done over a reasonable timescale matching the technology, which is centuries, is tiny compared to the cost of making the environment of the Earth right. These are not competitive.

We should do short-term and long-term things, both. There's a little Mary Hines on TV. How fabulous is that, Mary, When Carl Sagan says to you, that's a really good question. Oh, I just, I will dine out on that forever. But what a, that was all about him. What a gracious, generous man. I loved interviewing him.

And if we phone Mary now, that's her ringtone. Yeah, I know. It absolutely is. What a great question, Mary. It should be. If I could figure out how to set a rant tone, that's what it would be. Wow. Okay. So Mary, bury me in some information. So what was it like alongside Steve Paikin for a couple of years? And then we'll need to find out why you eventually leave TVO. You know, it was the best of times. It was the worst of times. Steve sent me the blooper reel a couple of weeks ago, which I hadn't watched in years. You should have sent it to me. I would

have played it. We'll send it to you for, you know, for the sequel. I'll play it at TMLX 14. It was exhilarating. It was exciting. It was something so new. I always felt that I was not quite dropping the ball, but it was really hard to work alongside such a natural. And I remember once someone did, I don't think I've ever said this to you, we had a guest on, an expert in introversion and extroversion. And in the green room before the show, we're doing the little quiz. And Steve, I remember the results. One of us is an off the chart extrovert. One of us turns out to be an off the chart introvert. I'm going to let you guess who was who.

Perfect match. And, you know, so for one of us, that was the dream job. And for the other one of us, it was, oh my God, like I'm going to be so on. I have to be on. I have to put my game face on. I have to go out and do this and be on. And it's really kind of, it's killing me. Certainly never said that to you. Well, okay.

We're getting real gonna get we're getting real here we're getting real steve you know where you are steve is it seemed to come so naturally to you and i found it really hard in a lot of ways i remember one night and it wasn't that far like if we went on the air in september this might have been october and I remember one night after a show, we did the show back then live at eight o'clock at night. So it's nine, 10, nine 15. And you were in an edit suite and you were sitting on the floor and I think you were crying. This rings a bell. And, and I walked in, I said, mayor, mayor, what's wrong? What's wrong? And you said, I'm not cut out for this. This is just not for me. One month in. And I always thought, and I told you, you know, you're wrong. You're full of it. This is totally up your alley. You absolutely can do this. You said, I think at the time, I'm too introverted and I

like the makeup and the lights and the cameras. I just don't like any of that. And I said, doesn't matter. You don't have to be an extrovert in order to be fabulous at this. And I don't think I was ever able to convince you how absolutely fabulous you were at it, even though you didn't think so. But you were. And talk about, you know, all this business about a natural. That's just BS, Mary. You know, once you've done it 10,000 times, then, you know, you can be a natural.

But that's what I'm saying. People say, oh, Steve, it's so natural for you. Yeah, I've done 30,000 interviews. So of course, it looks like I'm a natural. So then I'm selling you short by saying it came so easily to you. I'm selling you short by saying that. He's telling you to work so hard at this. And he's right. You do have to work at it. I am selling you short by saying that. And he's right. You do have to work at it. I am selling you short by saying that. But I always thought you sold yourself short because you didn't see what we saw. And what we saw was somebody who may have been introverted, but was still so damned good at it.

And you were so damned good at it. And I remember when you left, I remember trying to think, I got to convince her to stay. I got to convince her she's wrong about this. Wow. I got to convince her that she's, and Peter tried to get you to stay too. We really should have talked. No, we did talk. We did have all these conversations back in the day.

And I remember, I remember talking to Peter Herndorf and, and he, and he tried to get you to stay, but you, you know, you made the right decision for you, I guess. It just never totally felt comfortable. I remember, because Steve is also a very social creature and social butterfly, early in COVID, there was a Zoom reunion of the team. And there was, it was just so, yeah. And it was so, a lot of us had lost touch. It was so sweet to see everybody again and just to go around that. And we were all very isolated. It was early in

COVID, right? And it was scary and it was isolating. And just to see all of those windows and people checking in and how are you? And, oh, I miss you. And then in the little sidebar with the private chats and like, oh my God, I miss you so much. You look great. How are you? And I remember sending a note, I don't know if it was just to you or if it was a bit more widespread than that, saying, because Vodak, our amazing colleague Vodak had said, we were so lucky and I'm not sure we knew it at the time because we had unprecedented freedom for a TV show to just get in there and do like pretty much whatever the hell we wanted. And that's not generally the way of the world in television.

And I remember I heard that from Vodak, who is such a wise man. And I said either to both of you or just you, I wish I could have done this job with these people in a more easygoing way. You know, I agonized over every minute on camera, and I wish I could have done it with a light touch and a light heart. And you were so gracious, because you said something like, yeah, but then you wouldn't be doing tapestry, and I like you there. So, you know, you landed in the right place. But I did have that reunion, that first reunion because we've had a few it just made me think what would it have felt like if I could have been easier on myself or if I could have thought okay some of this is a stretch for me because I don't like

being on and I I'm I'm never going to be as extroverted as you are what if I could have just said yeah but shut up and do it. It would have been a different experience. I think that might've been sustainable for me. Sure. But, but you know what? You're phenomenal on the radio and you can tell that you love being on the radio and you've got like, you've got that, sorry, Mike, this is going to turn into mutual admiration here, but, but you've, you've got that, you've got the personality, you've got that, sorry Mike, this is going to turn into mutual admiration here, but you've got the personality, you've got the disposition, you've got the voice, you've got the curiosity, you've got the thoughtfulness, you've got the whole package when it comes to doing what you have been doing. And for whatever reason, you seem to prefer doing it on the radio than on television, and I thought that you brought all of what you bring in radio to the television screen as well even if you didn't always see it that way that is just so beautiful to hear I suspect I've always felt like a newspaper person so radio has been a stretch for

me tv was just like uh what's that saying it's it's a it's not a gold a bridge too far that's why he's the host like so radio still feels like a stretch to me. I feel like a print person. So radio feels like a bit of a stretch and TV was just then a bridge too far. Mary, you sound like you have imposter syndrome. Like you've been doing it and kicking ass at it for years.

I mean, we were going to talk about the big announcement, which I know it's out there already. That's how I learned about it. But you've decided to retire from CB. We haven't even got you to CBT Radio, but you've decided to retire. I mean, tapestry, what? It's December 31st is the season finale

and that's it for you. That's it for me. And we've learned they're also cancelling the show. So that's it for me. You're irreplaceable. No, I'm not irreplaceable. Apparently you are.

No, I, yeah, I, that's a, yeah, that's a, that's a. There can't be a tapestry without Mary Hines. No, see, I. No, I, yeah, I, that's a, yeah, that's a, that's a, there can't be a tapestry without Mary Lyons. No, see, I don't, I don't buy that. I wish it were continuing. All of us on the team wish it were continuing, but we're not, you know, we're not programmers. They recently,

we had the retirement of the host of The Next Chapter, which is another show I quite love, but The Next Chapter, I heard it again this past weekend. It still exists, but for some reason, tapestry is going to be done at the end of the month. Yeah. Interesting. Well, Tapestry... So it's not a season

finale, it's a series finale. It's a series finale, so we're planning... Is that out there or is this an exclusive? That's just out there. Yeah, that's just in the last few days that's out there. Okay, okay. And we're doing a special live show live to tape that'll be on the air um new year's eve is a is a sunday so december 31st will be the big finale

okay so you leave tvo because you don't want to be on tv essentially you want to be you feel more comfortable on the radio and i'm nine months pregnant and you're nine months okay so wait let's get this right so so that girl who would go on to wow you at my husband's goddamn funeral, excuse me, that was her. Ella, okay, so you can't, because regular people just take a maternity leave and then they come back to work. But you decided to take some more time. Please just give us the, like, why do you leave TVO? This is something else that's really interesting. Janice Stein, who is a goddess of the monk school,

and at that time was with the Foreign Affairs panel, which you did every week. Janice and I would talk in the makeup room before that Foreign Affairs panel every time she was in. I loved her, and still do. We just have lost touch. And we talked a lot about motherhood because at that point, um, I was pregnant for the first time. She had two kids. Um, we liked each other a lot and we felt comfortable having real conversations. And I said, I don't

know. I'm, you know, what if I'm not that maternal? Like, I just don't know. I'm, my mom is not that maternal. And what if I'm, what if I'm this, like? Like, I just don't know. My mom is not that maternal. And what if I'm, what if I'm this, like, what if I just can't really, what if this doesn't work? Like, this is not like, I need to leave television. This is, wow, I'm having a baby. My husband knows he's, he lied about his age

so he could become a big brother because he wasn't old enough for the big Brothers organization. So when he was 17, he said he was 18, and his little brother was part of our wedding party. Like, it just, he knew. Randy was very paternal. He had great paternal instincts.

He just, and he volunteered at a breakfast club for years and years and years, and I'm still in touch with one of the kids from the breakfast club on the strength of how strong his friendship with Randy was. So Randy needed to be a dad. And if I was going to be married to Randy, I needed to be a mom. And I just kind of thought, okay, him, I'm sure about me. I don't know. And Janice Stein, not only wise in the realm of foreign affairs, who knew, looked me in the eye and said, no, you're going to have the exact opposite phenomenon. You are going to drown in this so happily,

we might never see you again. You are going to love being a mother so deeply and profoundly that we might never see you working again. And I thought, where's that coming from? That's not my sense of it. And I never worked full time again. And for the first couple of years, I just stayed home completely without work.

Like, I thought nobody's ever going to hire me again because this gap is so long. But Janice was right. But Janice was right. And I remember when Ella was tiny, just holding her once and feeling like kind of for the first time in my life. So this is why I'm here. You know, like the depth of that purpose was so unexpected and so profound and so beautiful. Yeah, it's funny's we're both verklempt right now well no because you're such a papa right because you were born to this you're the same i think so yeah i think so that's beautiful and from what i've heard in this hour ella's turned out to be some

an amazing human being and mary that's a you're a big part of that. Of course. Damn straight. And you know, I, Steve and I have had this conversation because the, the lovely Marnie, your mom, um, I believe if I'm quoting her correctly said to you once, she wasn't going to take any credit if you were successful and she wasn't

going to take any shit. If you kind of, you know, lost your way, like to, to, you can only claim so much as a parent and they they do come fully formed to a great it's the great nature versus nurture who knows right but they do come fully

formed in like they really come as who they are right yeah but positive parenting positive parenting doesn't hurt let's put it right but i will say for the first 15 years she had randy starkman as a dad so i can i can claim some but i i'm not even sure i'd claim half from 15 onward from 15 onward it was my mission to you know i make sure she turned out well in the early days she in the really early days she she said, what are we, what are we going to do? Like, how are we going to, in the really early days, it was like, I, she couldn't imagine how we carried on. And I just remember some, somehow, you know, finding it and saying, I promise you, we're going to be okay. I promise you, I promise you, we're going to get through this and we're going to be okay. I promise you, I promise you we're, we're going to get through this and we're going to be okay.

We're more than okay. Wow. Yeah, she's phenomenal. She like, she's the one, she calls me tiny mama because I am, I'm kind of a sensitive soul and she's much tougher. So I,

I'll, I'll, I'll be having this kind of conversation or I'll be saying something to her about, you know, I was watching this TV show and I cried. She'll just text back. Oh,

tiny. So she, in many ways has lapped me on the, on the maturity and functioning in the world front. So Mary, how long did you stay home with Ella? So you talked about this gap, but tell me like,

how long is this gap? And then how do you get this? He doesn't miss anything. You are good. You are really good. Well, I'm listening. The sublime Richard Azunian at TVO called me up. He was looking for a host for the book show Imprint,

and Ella was, I think she was three then, and I thought, okay, maybe this is something I can manage if it's part-time. And, you know, maybe there's a way to figure this out. And so I did imprint and had done a series for one of the new all-medical, all-health, short-, and called open heart. I remember cause the, the idea was we were going to look at medicine from a humanistic point of view. And, um, yeah, so I, so I was working in, in, in little bits and, um, imprint was a good way sort of back into the world, but again, it was like back into television so it was thrown back into you know i'd spent three years in overalls and um i remember once when steven brunt was on the

sports panel he came in it was just shortly after studio two had launched and we'd worked together at the globe and i like i i used to i was made up much more heavily than you were, right? Like, that was seen to be the way of the world. Women usually are. Yeah, which drove me crazy. But I'd have, like. You have to decorate the eyes. We don't really do much to the eyes, right?

Correct. You know, like, and I had it on four inches thick, and I'd been to the hairdresser, and Stephen Brunk comes in to do the sports panel. He goes, Heinz, you look amazing. Like, you didn't even brush your hair at the Globe. And I, it wasn't, I don't think it was meant as an insult I didn't take it as an insult because it was like yeah nobody brushed their hair in the globe like you're just in there rough and tumble doing the thing so imprint was a bit you know one foot back in that world and how long did you uh host imprint for two? I think so, yeah.

Two years maybe. And it was a weekly show. It was a weekly show, yes. Which made all the difference. So very different, very different pace. Yeah. And I'm always reading anyway. And Richard Azunian was a hoot to work for.

So it was, yeah, we had some laughs. Okay. Now what brings you to CBC? At some point you returned to CBC Radio. Yeah, I felt that I had done what I could at Imprint. I didn't see it as a long, long, long-term thing. And it's funny, before Tapestry, the longest I'd spent in any job was five years. Right.

And in some jobs, much less than that. And so I'm'm this is 20 years for me which i find yeah no which is just not like i was never built that way for 20 years in a job but i think losing rand in 2012 kind of cemented okay i'm not ready to strike out into something different you wanted stability i wanted i really need stability yeah and also it's been the kind of show where it's sort of a, it can be a radically different thing from one week to the next, you know,

bit of philosophy, bit of psychology, bit of capital R religion, a bit of more, you know, wide angle spirituality, spiritual, but not religious.

So the variety of it, I think has been, it's it's kind of encouraged a long run 20 years okay so what did you get like a phone call from an old boss at cbc or something we're looking for a host like how does that origin story they were they were looking for some guest hosts because um a host had left and um they were filling in for a while, guest hosts. And so they, Jennifer McGuire, who was a producer of mine in sports, was then, she was really moving up the ladder in management. So she was, I don't know if she was running English radio at that point or running Current Affairs. And she said, you know, here's something.

running current affairs. And she said, you know, here's something she was always looking out for me because she, she did not want me to stay home forever with a baby. Which I think would have been, that also would have been fine. Like that also would have been a really cool path. Except they don't stay babies forever.

Right. They go to Yale at some point. Well done, Mike Boone. There you go. There you go. All right. Yeah. So I, I guest hosted and i was really into it and then that but i i did have to um board for the job and i i had never really done a cbc

board before because the inside track thing was so casual and it was the head of the sports department calling me up and saying hey do you think you'd like this job which just was was not the way it was done a few years later you should explain what a board is right because it's kind of like a firing squad it's like yeah let's hear what this is gonna ask so it's a it can be anywhere from three to seven managers and producers and HR people. And it's an exercise where they fire questions at you and you try to make the case for why you're the person for the job. Like it's as bad as live television, really. It's quite nerve wracking.

And it just, I don't know, it somehow- And it's aggressive. Like they try to trip you up. Yes, yeah. They want to see what you're made of. Wow, like a firing squad. Although luckily to see what you're made of. Wow. Like a firing squad. Although, luckily enough, there were a couple of really friendly faces on this board.

And Bernie Lucht was on it, the former retired producer of Ideas. And when you look across the table at Bernie, you're seeing someone with a beaming smile. And you kind of feel like he has your back. He'd be the exception, though. The rest of them didn't have your back. Well, I remember. At least that was my experience. There was someone from the news department there,

and I thought it was game over when I said, you know, I'm really drawn to stories that have no discernible news hook at all. And then she was just, you could see she was visibly aggrieved. And I thought, well, you know, to me, that's what a show like this can do. It's not tied to the news cycle. And you can do things like, what does it mean to be human? Which you're not going to see. Which are evergreen topics.

Thank you. Thank you, Mike. We're here in five years and they're still relevant. Thank you. That's the way we've approached it anyway. Timeless. Timeless. I like that.

Okay. So, Tapestry, you got the gig. I got the gig. Okay. So tapestry, you got the gig. I got the gig. I got the gig. You get the gig. I do want to hear a bit of how you, you know, you're still on tapestry because it sounds like we've got another month of Mary Hines hosting tapestry, but let's listen to this. A sense of sacredness, a sense of mystery.

I do know that there's one place that is sacred to me. That's the house that my grandfather built when he came to Canada. My whole being became very tranquil. It has existed for centuries, all over the world. It has inspired pilgrimages and poetry. It puts you in touch with something ancient, perhaps something holy. The poet Basho, writing in the 17th century, said, What you find when you approach sacred ground is a glimpse of the underglimmer. Rudolph Otto knew the feeling well. The German theologian wrote about the mysterium tremendum in certain spots on earth. Otto believed some places are so

set apart from everyday life they fill you with blank wonder and astonishment. Sometimes they fill you with blank wonder and astonishment. Sometimes they fill you with dread. This week, our search for sacred ground, where is it? What is it? Will take us to a wild spot on the St. Lawrence River. And to our people in the past, it was a place of medicine, it was a place of ceremony, it was just a place of beauty that you would celebrate to even be here. It will take us to a place where more than a million people, most of them Jews, perished in Poland. The light bulb went off in my mind about, wow, we could dance at Auschwitz.

We'll hear stories from across the country about where sacred ground is for you. How do you know when you're there? Does it do something to you? It evokes a feeling either of calmness or devotion or wholeness. This is Tapestry Sacred Ground Part 2. I'm Mary Hines. A little taste of Mary Hines.

See that? Okay, I repeat. Did you hear that voice, Mike? Okay, that's a voice that is empathetic, curious, thoughtful, intelligent, warm, welcoming. It's a unique voice. intelligent, warm, welcoming. It's a unique voice. It's a unique voice because it combines a bunch of qualities that are rare.

Most people on the radio, most people on television are any one of those things, right? Right. But to be all of those things together in one voice, that's really hard, and she has it. You had offered me an octopus when I sat down. Can I have it? Is that up for grabs still?

So this is an octopus wants to fight. And you were, what did you say about the, I mean, I know what you're doing. This is too hot in the kitchen. And you're like, we need to turn down the heat for a minute here.

But you did say something about the octopus wants to fight when you, in it. Oh, okay. She did it right in front of the microphone she knew what she was doing so i'm not i'm not a beer drinker and you happened to offer me the one beer i love and drink and i i've just made octopus wants to fight octopus wants to fight from great lakes brewery and i'm a long long long time fan of steve's dad Larry Paykin. So I did some baking for Larry Paykin the other day

and it's Randy's famous beer bread and octopus is octopus. What were the odds? Like of all the beers in all the world. Octopus is the beer of all the beers. I walk into this one. That was on the table. It was on the table and I'm getting goosebumps here. No, me too. So this was Randy's beer bread. I've made some for Larry. It's made with this beer. Octopus wants to fight. And now I'm sorry, I would never ordinarily drink A in front of a microphone and B during the day. Well, you're not on CBC Radio, Mary. You can get hammered on this program. Absolutely.

I'm coming back. I love this program. Now, hearing Steve say those very kind words, very true words. There's a gravitas to your voice. This is, you know, why is that voice leaving the radio waves? Like,

why is it all coming to an end? Did you wake up one day and say, that's it? 20 years. I'm out. No. Do you know something that was quite profound? And I love thinking of this.

I adored my mother-in-law. This was Estelle Starkman, Randy's mom. We lost her last fall, last November. And in her last summer, I'd had a big chunk of that summer off. And I was getting ready to go back to work. And I used to call her every Sunday. I said, Estelle, I don't know what's wrong with me. I've had a great long break

this summer. And now I'm going back to work on Monday. And I don't want to go back. I'm not ready to go back. And if I'm not recharged now, I will never be recharged. Like, I don't know what's wrong. And she said, Mayor, she always called me Mayor, don't take this the wrong way. You've been working a long time. She's 92 at this point, right? Canine a horror. And I said, Estelle, did you just give me permission to retire? And she said, yes.

And I thought about that over and over and over. And she was a very, very hard working woman her whole life. And I think on one level, I should not have needed permission to retire. I was a grown woman myself. And there was just something beautiful about that invitation. She was saying on some level, you've worked a lot and 45 years is a long time to work it's a long it's a long time to work in fields in a field like this that can be you know okay it's not brain surgery I wasn't an air traffic controller I should not have felt as stressed out as I seem to have been at many occasions and my sister who is fabulous Denise is years younger, but she beat me to retirement. She was

with the Toronto Fire Department for years and years and years. Another one who says to me, oh, tiny, you're such a sensitive soul. I'm surrounded by these amazing, tough women in my family. And Denise would say, what about retirement? You know, she's loving retirement so much. She said every day is a play date it's like kind of like being in kindergarten again today again I'm getting together with friends and doing crafts and I'd say but the work is still really interesting and I love my colleagues and Denise would say but I see what it takes out of you and that was a that was a touchy conversation because I think I I didn't want that to show.

I didn't want her feeling sorry for me. I didn't want to be making, and I'd say to her, I'm not an air traffic controller. Why is it taking, why is it making me feel? Taking the mickey out of me, I think is the expression in the UK. Well, no, taking the mickey out of me would be like teasing me, giving me the gears. Oh, okay. I think we're looking for sucking the life out of me. I didn't want to be that dramatic about it.

But Denise nailed it. it didn't leave enough left over for some of the things I want to start doing in a more, I want time to get better on the bass and I want time to get better at speaking Italian. And I'm stuck in both of those passions. I'm not going to get much better at any one of them until I can have this

like beautiful wide open space. So you just do that. You just said, I'm done. Like I'm retired, retiring at the end of 2023. Yeah. Yeah.

At the end of December. And when did you make this decision? Like when did you make this final decision that you are tapping out? It, it had, it had since that conversation with Estelle, my, my mother-in-law, and since the repeated conversations with the fabulous Denise Hines, it had been on my mind for a couple of years. And I made the decision just as last season was ending. Okay. Well, firstly, congratulations.

Thank you. It's nice to hear a story where somebody makes that decision on their own. You know what I mean? There's so many media people who come over and they get a tap on the shoulder and just like, okay, time is up. Let's talk about a package and you can go learn Italian. I'm grateful for leaving this way. Okay, in 20 years. And bass.

When did you find out that they were actually going to shut down the program? Not until this fall. Yeah, I think I had thought it would continue with another host. Right, why? But it's not, you know, I don't get a vote. Well, they couldn't find a voice with that weight to it. I don't think that's it at all. I think when shows are reborn with new hosts,

maybe new producers, because we have a phenomenal team of producers, I think hosts go in exciting new directions. I don't think a host leaving is the end of the party. No, no, typically it's not. But I've never been a manager. You know, I don't know what constraints they work under. I don't know how those decisions are made. I wish it were continuing, but it's not my call. Right. No, not your call. That's for sure. Now, do you want to shout out any of the team members on Tapestry as you wind things down? Oh, man. You know, I saw this as kind of a danger because I'm so, I love my senior producer so much,

Rosie Fernandez, and I thought the danger is I'm going to be trying to do this when I'm 78 years old because I love working with Rosie so much. Emotional intelligence like I have certainly never seen in this business, and it's rare anywhere. She's just phenomenal. Arman Iqbali, who's much, much younger than I am, and it was the funniest thing because we'd often come up with the same story ideas from the same bizarre rando sources,

and we couldn't be farther apart in terms of age. And we were somehow on the same wavelength for so many kind of quirky ideas that we bring to the show. McKenna Hadley Burke is in Vancouver. She, as an intern with the show not that long ago, was winning these international awards. As an intern, the show not that long ago was winning these international awards as an intern like it just it doesn't happen you know just such a gifted gifted documentary maker and the the danger there is that the team is so um aaron noel who who did the previous five years

with the team as senior producer, the danger was I'm so fond of my colleagues and it's such a wonderful place to work that I had to kind of stop because I thought, no, I could be doing this past the point where I really should be doing this. I'm going to sound 75 and not wanting to leave because my colleagues are so amazing. You're like Jim Brown, right? Steve, she's like Jim Brown. You're at the height of your powers and you're going to walk away. I'm like Bruce Bochy. I don't know how deep I can get it.

Can I say I'm like Bruce Bochy? But he's still managing, right? But he left for three years and when he just won the world... This drives my colleagues nuts because I find a way to bring every conversation back to sports. This happens during tapestry interviews. It drives them to distraction.

Bruce Bochy, when he retired from the Giants and he was away for three years and like getting knee surgery. And he said, you know, he the Giants showed him the door. Can you believe the Giants gave him his walking papers? And he had to come out and say, I left on my own. Like, I was ready to leave. I thought I was leaving for good. He was away for three years, and then he missed the game. He wanted to manage again.

The call comes from Texas, so he manages again. So I'm Bruce Bochy in the extent that I'm leaving due to my own volition, but I'm not Bruce Bochy while I don't have a series ring and I'm not coming back

in three years. So really, you're actually Barry Sanders is who you are, right? So you've got many good years left in you, but you're like, I'm walking away.

Do you know who I am? I'm Chris Squire before he really learns how to play the bass. That's who I am. Who's Chris Squire? Do you know? Do you remember Yes? Yeah. The band Yes?

Yeah. You know Yes? I do. The girl surprised Mary is that Steve knows Yes. I've heard of them. Don't ask me to name a single song, but I've heard of them. You know, there was a roundaboutabout the words will make you out and out and spend the day

you only know one, well maybe two. We'll give them Tony Bennett and Frank Sinatra. It's actually a mark of respect

that I'm surprised you know who Yes is because Steve is such a fan of the great song book and when I think of you I think of Tony. I sent Steve a condolence note when Tony Bennett died

so that's the only reason I'm surprised that you know who Yes is. Yeah, so it's just so many of my heroes who are known in the bass world but I don't think they get their due in

the wider, like outside the bass community. You know, you're true, because lead singer gets all the attention and then the lead guitarist gets a lot of attention, right? The bass player and the drummer sort of yes they're kind of underappreciated paul mccartney got a lot of attention okay there are but paul mccartney is also a lead singer there are three exceptions that prove the rule if you're getty lee sting or paul mccartney but all singers

the bass player and and be at be front they're all lead singers. I mean, to me, part of the beauty of the bass is you're like, wait, you're not the host of the show. You're the introvert. You can hide. Working with the drummer the whole time. Okay, Mary, congrats again on the retirement. I have a couple of gifts for you here. What? So I'm sure they'll have gifts for you at CBC Radio, but don't be so sure.

Okay, so. Oh, you are too much. Tough times, tough times. You are too much. There is a large frozen lasagna in my freezer right now so that box is empty but i'll fill it up before you leave that is courtesy of palma pasta thank you and it's phenomenal and it is phenomenal uh steve married an italian he can vouch for this correct absolutely absolutely steve do you want another

one you got room in that freezer for more do Do you want one? Mike, can you imagine my turning down a Palma pasta from you? I feel generous today. You're each getting a large frozen lasagna from Palma pasta. Thank you so much. Grazie mille. And I hope you're enjoying the octopus wants to fight. I'll send some home with you. I can't believe your one beer is here.

Like that is in Great Lakes. That's uncanny. That is pun intended. Absolutely. Okay. More gifts. And that I've got beer bread here made with octopus. And it's using Randy's recipe. and Great Lakes Brewery. That's uncanny. That is unbelievable. Pun intended. Absolutely. Okay, more gifts. No, and that I've got beer bread here

made with octopus. And it's using Randy's recipe and that's going to Larry Pagan who almost made his Toronto Mike debut this past Father's Day. We might have to figure that one out though.

Okay, I have a wireless speaker for you. This is courtesy of Minera. But this is for Bluetooth connectivity. You can listen to Italian language lessons or whatever you want

it sounds amazing that's incredible Moneris is giving that to you and you have one too thank you Steve you probably got one last time right Steve

that's amazing I think I did Mike okay so that's courtesy of Moneris because you're gonna use that to listen to season five of Yes We Are Open which is an award winning

podcast from Moneris Al Grego went to the Maritimes. He went to Newfoundland. And he speaks with small business owners. And he collects their inspiring stories. And then he shares them on this really cool podcast, Yes, We Are Open. Who produces that podcast?

I actually don't produce that podcast. You don't? I know you're setting me up there. I totally was. Yeah. It's self-produced in-house by Moneris. If they had outsourced, TMBS is here for them. But there is a podcast I produce

that I'd like to tell you about, which is called the Advantaged Investor Podcast from Raymond James Canada. Mary, whether you already work with a trusted financial advisor or currently manage your own investment plans, the Advantaged Investor provides the engaging wealth management information you value

as you pursue your most important goals. So subscribe to Yes, We Are Open. subscribe to The Advantaged Investor, and remember this website address. It is recyclemyelectronics.ca because if you have old electronics, old cables, old phones, old devices, old tablets, don't throw them in the garbage. You go to recyclemyelectronics.ca, find a place very close to you where you can drop them off and they will be properly recycled so the chemicals, they don't end up in our landfill.

It's good for everybody. Recyclemyelectronics.ca So Mary, that was amazing. We went through your entire professional life there. We got some of your personal life in there. We've learned you're retiring at the end of the year. Tapestry is coming to an end December 31st, 2023. That's the series finale.

So I'm coming back to you, but I'm actually going to go back to Steve Pagan for a minute because I have a few questions for him. So off the top, we learned that you're back to work, Steve. Yeah. 11 weeks that strike went. Correct. That's an unprecedented 11-week strike for your union there, but you're back at it.

But I did read that, like, I think 13 union members are choosing to leave TVO. They took these buyouts. Yes. So you've lost some good people on the team. Also correct. And one name I was listening to Mary speak about this person because I've been

reading about this gentleman and I want to speak about him now with both of you. Vodek. Is it Zemberg? Schemberg. Schemberg. Legend. Totally. So 40, almost 46 years he was a producer at TVO. He's won, and I have the number here. I wonder if the number has changed. But 18%, so there's 74 members of your union. 18% took the buyout. Vodek being one of the most prominent, almost 46 years. Talk to me about Vodek. Vodek Schemberg, I have to say was. I was going to say is.

But was the intellectual foundation of the agenda. He's a guy who produces the biggest of the big ideas on the program. I would say genius. Am I overstating the case? You're not. You're not overstating it. Wow. This is a guy who was born in communist Poland and as a teenager then moved to, and eventually came to Canada, and he is just

simply brilliant. He's a brilliant guy. And, you know, he's 73 years old now, so it is, you know, given the TVO is offering buyout packages to people who, you know, have had enough or don't want to return or whatever, it's sort of good timing for him to take a package and run. But, God, I'm going to miss the hell out of him. I mean, he's just, some of the, look at, Vorek Schemberg introduced, and this will be a good thing for some people and a bad thing for others. He's the first person ever to put Jordan Peterson on television.

Jordan Peterson was an unknown psychologist at the University of Toronto who was a lecturer there and had a, you know, sort of a popular course and had written one book, I think. Maps of Meaning. Yeah, there you go, Maps of Meaning, which was his book.

And Vodick put him on the air at TVO numerous times and eventually he started to, you know, gain a following. And, you know, Jordan is, numerous times, and eventually he started to gain a following. And Jordan is the most famous University of Toronto professor ever, with apologies to Marshall McLuhan, but I think he's been surpassed. I think McLuhan's been surpassed. Northrop Frye? No?

You know, nor he didn't have social media, but there you go. I don't know. Anyway, so Vodick will be deeply, deeply missed along with... Well, there are more. I was going to ask you. I'll prompt you for a couple of them, and then you can tell me everyone I miss. And I hope I get the... Again, I don't know how to say these names. I don't know how to read them, but Kara Stern? Kara Stern. Kara. See, I had

two options, and I chose the wrong one. But she was... Tell me, she was a long-time producer at The Agenda. Well, believe it or not, I've known Kara Stern since she was five years old. Through circumstances that don't matter, I've known her since she was a little kid, and she one day, I guess about, oh, I don't

even know how many years ago, I guess 10, 11, 12, something like that, said that she wanted to apply for an internship on The Agenda, and she was a, God, was she a U of O or Carlton? Probably Carlton. She was doing journalism at Carlton, and she was a, God, was she a U of O or Carlton? Probably Carlton. She was doing journalism at Carlton, and she got an internship in the show,

which turned into a job, and she was there, I think, 10 years, producing on the agenda. So, yeah, she's off as well. Okay, and what about, again, I have a couple options to pronounce this. Let's see if I nail it this time. Sandra Gionis?

Wow, Mike, that one you got right. Well done. I'm sweating over here Sandra's leaving it could be Sandra you remember her of course I do she was there 27 years

yeah so she worked on Studio 2 as well of course yeah well again 27 years and it's just a good time

for her she's in her I guess I can say this out loud she's in her high 50s and it's just you know it's a good time for her to take a package

and do something else in life she has time for her to take a package and do something else in life. She has ideas for other things that she wants to do. She's, what do we call her? We call her the mother of interns because she ran the internship program on the agenda. And they're all sorts of young kids who came through the agenda over the last many, many years that she was running that internship program. And, you know, those kids have gone on to do other things in life and it all started with her. Okay. So I've got more names, but let's hear from you, Steve. Anyone else you want to shout out? Is there anyone left on the agenda? Like are you the last man? I'm the last guy out to turn out the light. No, I mean, you've

put your finger on one of the realities, Mike, which is that I think about three quarters of the agenda producers have left. Harrison Loman's gone? Yep, he has gone. Three quarters have left? Something like that, yeah. That's wild. I guess they just hate me.

They just don't want to work with me anymore. You know, that's not possible because they love you. Well, how do I put this? You're very easy to work with. You are very easy to work with. You are very easy to work with. Thank you for saying so. Look, I adore them all. We've worked,

you know when you work on a, and Mary just explained this with her crew at Tapestry, when you work on a program for a long time with the same group of people, you know, they become a second family to you.

It's really true. But each of them has a different reason for wanting to take advantage of the opportunity to leave and It's really true. But each of them has a different reason for wanting to take advantage of the opportunity to leave and go do something else. And I don't deny that part of the reason is that I have a year and a half left on my contract and they don't know what's going to happen after a year and a half. And therefore, they have the certainty of taking a package right now versus the uncertainty of seeing what Pagan's going to do in a year and a half when his contract's up or what TVO is going to do to

Pagan in a year and a half when the contract's up. Because the fact is, Steve, you don't know what's going to happen in 18 months. No, I don't. Well, I don't know what's going to happen when I walk out your front door after this is over. So nevermind 18 months from now. So yeah, now it's a top history episode. What can we really know? How metaphysical is this getting? Right. So, yeah. I'm just going to sit here and have my beer. So everybody's made different decisions.

They've made decisions for different reasons. And therefore, you know, a lot of people have been asking me, when's the agenda getting back on the air? And unfortunately, the answer I have to give them is, I don't really know because we lost a lot of people and we gotta staff up you have a human resource uh we do challenge it's an important show it's such a good show well thanks for saying so yeah i kind of like it people point to that show as the way a current affairs television program 100 mary 100 100 and you know there's a whole team behind you of course You're the face we see and you do a great job, Steve.

But if you lose 75% of the, you know, Beyond Steve cast members here, yeah, you're going to need to reload. Yeah. I mean, the reality is you can't do... Do you want me to come on over and work with you on the agenda? It'd be a pleasure. It'd be a pleasure. That'd be great.

You know, you can't do a daily show with, you know, hosting three producers. I'm standing by my phone, Steve. I just want you to know I'm going to see if it rings. Keep waiting. I'm going to stare at it. What were you saying there? Sorry. No, you just, you need a big, obviously you can't lose three quarters of your team and

go back on the air immediately with a daily show because you just don't have enough personnel to make that happen. So they got to figure all that out. A couple more names I was reading about. Daniel Kitts. Oh, Daniel Kitts. You worked with Daniel, didn't you? No, I don't have enough personnel to make that happen. So they've got to figure all that out. A couple more names I was reading about. Daniel Kitts. Oh, Daniel Kitts. You worked with Daniel, didn't you? No, I don't think so.

No, okay. Oh, you're right. Yeah, I think Daniel's been there 20 years. 24 years. Yeah, you would have just missed him, Mary. Daniel Kitts, again, is another one of these guys. He's from Ottawa, and he started out as a young kid. He might have been 23 years old, 22, something like that,

when he walked in the door. And here he is all these years later. He's a father of two girls, and he's just 23 years old, 22, something like that, when he walked in the door. And here he is all these years later. He's a father of two girls, and he's just, you know, I've watched him grow up, you know. I've watched him turn from a little kid just out of journalism school into a young man, into a husband, into a father, into a great journalist, you know. It's just kind of cool watching how all of these people

have grown up over the years. Mary Hines, I heard you singing a Yes song a moment ago. Like, what are your jams? I know Steve's jams. He's kicked them out with me. Like, what do you listen to? So, what do I listen to?

I am classic rock girl, and I'm still not over Andy Frost. Has Andy Frost ever been on with you? Andy Frost has absolutely been in the basement. Has he really? Oh, yeah. Oh, my God. We talked about Psychedelic Sunday. Oh, my God.

Psychedelic Sunday. I maneuvered to have him on. Goal scored by number 13, Matt Sundin. Toronto goal. Toronto goal scored by number 13, Matt Sundin. I goal. Toronto goal scored by number 13, Matt Sundin. Do you know, I maneuvered to have him on tapestry once, and I think that was the most, like, seriously, right? We were doing a special called Soundtrack for the Soul,

and it's what's the music that puts you in touch with something, like, larger than yourself? And I thought, like, but one of my colleagues i think it was one of the guys from quirks and quarks said okay that was shameless like like you have the host of psychedelic sunday on tapestry how do you how did you how did you sell that that's skillful that is skill but he what okay you know how skillful andy frost is he hit the post we were the music that wraps up the segment and he wove in carol king's tapestry album there we go and nobody knows this but i took the streetcar home from work

after that interview it was on cloud nine it was like oh my god i've met andy frost in person he's been on the show i'm halfway home on the streetcar, and it was, oh shit, I drove today. I have to go back and get my car. That's hilarious. I was so starstruck and so in the zone. Not intimidated because he was such a gentleman and so friendly, but he's one of my,

I have radio heroes. I want to hear more of that. He's one of them. The first sign that you're dealing with a sweetheart is when they agree to come in my basement and talk to me because the asshats won't do it. Like, so if you're a jerk or whatever, you're not going to do this. So your first sign somebody might be a decent person is when they say, yes, Michael, come in your basement and answer your questions for 90 minutes.

Like that takes a certain like sweetheart to do that. And Andy said yes. Andy said yes. Wow. Now, Mike, can I jump in with something here? Is it about Andy? No. Okay.

So my Andy fact quick, of course, I know Mary knows this. Shut up. We're talking about Andy Frost. You do know, of course, Andy's son, Morgan. Yes. I have a daughter named Morgan, by the way, but Andy's son, Morgan. Morgan Frost. Is an NHL player with your Philadelphia Flyers.

I did not know that. I did not know that. That is some weird. You know what? He only cares about baseball and Philadelphia Flyers. Absolutely. I did not know that. I did not know that. That is some weird way to describe it. You know, he only cares about baseball and CFL football. Okay, Steve, what were you going to say? That's what I was going to get to. Thank you for the segue, because Mary and I bond, not just over this little career that we've had together, but we both love baseball.

Oh, no, but that's not a bond. We're at each other's throats over football. Because he's a Red Sox fan. Because I'm... Yankee, but she's worse. That's even worse. Actually, that is worse. That is worse. That's bad. That's worse. So,'s a Red Sox fan. Because I'm... But she's worse. Yankees. That's even worse. Actually, that is worse. That is worse. That's bad. That's worse. So, yes.

Get out of my basement. Red Sox for back to Arizona. Wait, wait. Yankees for her. But my National League team is the Giants. So can I stay? But why? Because I've had this conversation and Steve will tell you when I was growing up, there

were no Blue Jays. And that's actually a pretty damn good. So is it the same with you, Mary, that the Blue Jays show up in 77 and you had to adopt a team before that? So, you know, I've already been singing the praises of Sport Magazine. And I think this is a quote of yours. I love this, and I think I heard it from you, Steve. The greatest team in history is the one you loved when you were 14 years old.

But music's like that too, right? No, that's a line from Ken Dryden. I asked Ken, what was the golden era of hockey? And he said, whatever you were watching when you were 12. Oh, what a poet.

Yeah, that's a great line. There's a lot of truth to that because my favorite Blue Jay team is still the 1985 Blue Jays and I was, do the math on that, I was like 10 years old. So it's formative, right?

Yeah, it's something in the music. That's the team that lost the 3-1 lead. That is the team that won. And the previous year it was the best of five.

Look at you go. He wants to remind me of, yeah, of course. No, but it's profound. You're 10 years old.

You're 10 years old and there's something profound happening. You are in love with a team and a lineup. But I'm about to play a song because I'm going to kick out a jam, if you will. But before I kick out this jam, I was just going to say about music too.

I can tell you that when I really like, I will go back to the CDs I listened to when I was 16 years old. And I really, a lot of my favorite music is the music I fell in love with as a 16, 17 year old. Like it's like it implants in there. Why am I in love with Todd Rundgren? Because I know why because he produced

Love Junk for the Pursuit of Happiness. And he produced the New York Dolls and Meatloaf and all that. But I love him for Something Anything in 1972

and A Wizard, A True Star in 1973 and Todd, the double album in 1974. Because like when you're that, when you're, I don't want to, when you're that young and something moves you, whether it's your baseball team or your music, it's landing in your soul. What's the one song you and I did at karaoke? Oh, it was amazing.

Hello, it's me. It was Hello, It's Me. Todd Rundgren. It's me, of course. Great jam, yeah. So, Mary, one day, you know, once you get adapted to retirement and you're like, I miss microphones or whatever, that moment comes or whatever. Not gonna happen. But if you miss, maybe you'll miss, I miss lasagna or whatever.

You're gonna come back and kick out the jams with me. Steve's done this. It's a lot of fun. You'll have fun. Your 10 favorite songs of all time. Oh, no. And you tell us why you love the song. No. And you get some Todd Rundgren on there. You'll enjoy it. It's a lot of fun. We play your 10 favorite songs of all time and you tell us why you love the song. You'll get some Todd Rundle in there.

You'll enjoy it. Think about it. No, think about it. No, like can I have a date now? Okay, but no, Mike, do you know Squeeze? Yeah, Tempted. Well, Tempted and so much more. I know. Yes, there's more than that. Tempted was the big, big hit. But you know what?

There are times over the course of baseball season, Mike, when, like, you know, I watch 155 Red Sox games. I may miss a few along the way. And Mary listens to, listens to, she doesn't do TV. She does radio. She listens to John and Susan Waldman for the Yankee games. And John Miller in San Francisco. Yeah.

So we often, you know, we send emails to each other from time to time. And you know, I will, you don't know about this yet. Oh, what? But the sublime Marnie Pakin, your mom. Yeah. I have written you a note about the sublime Marnie Pakin, whom you've just lost. And I'm so sorry. And the note to you includes my favorite Marnie Paken memory,

which is, I mean, she was, she was. Maybe I kick up my jam right now and then we talk more about that. Okay, okay. So here's my jam. Put your dreams away for another day. And I will take their place in your heart. In your heart Wishing on a star Never got you far

And so it's time to make A new start When your dreams at night fade before you you Then I'll have the right to adore you Let your

kiss confess This is happiness Darling This is happiness, darling And put all your dreams away Steve, my sincere condolences to you on the passing of your mom, Marnie Paken. I'm so sorry, man.

Well, I'm glad you're playing that song, and I'll tell you why that was my mom's favorite song. That song, of course, made famous by Frank Sinatra, and they played it at his funeral. That's the song they buried him to at his funeral, and it was written by a woman named Ruth Lowe, who's from Toronto, and was a friend of my mother's mother. Really? Yep.

They both lived at Bathurst and Eglinton in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. And Ruth Lowe and Shirley Sibulash, who was my mom's mom, they were pals. And Ruth's son, Tommy Sandler, who's one of the best photographers in town, and you'll see him at every big event, he and I are pals. And we talk about our wonderful moms and grandmoms. Anyway, yeah, that was, I just, in fact, before coming over here, because you asked me, you said, what was your mom's favorite song?

And I checked with my dad, and that's what came back. Your first appearance on Toronto Mike, Steve, you told us all about Ruth Lowe, and I never forgot. That was the first number one Billboard song of all time. Was she in You'll Never Walk Alone? She was I'll Never Smile Again. I'll Never Smile Again. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, which was Frank's first number one hit.

Wow. I'll Never Smile Again. Wow. Right. Which is a wild story. And she whipped that song off quickly. Sinatra literally called her and said, I need a theme song for a TV show I'm doing next week. Write me a song, Ruthie.

That's beautiful. And she went to the piano and she apparently did it in one night. Now Mary knows why I interrupted her story about Marnie there, but now you can come back to it. No, so I have said this in a card to you because, I mean, Marnie was so formidable, right? And I'm thinking of your phrase, MFC, to describe. And I'm going to let you do the honors for that one because you will and only you can do it justice. But I remember like I being in Marnie's presence,

you and I had gone to a Yankees game at, and I like, I don't call it Rogers Center, right? I'm not like, thank you. I'm not, I'm not like,

I don't do that, that sponsorship, like corporate thing with ballparks. And I remember Marnie saying to me, OMH, you're such a lovely person. How can you be a member of the evil empire? And knowing that I'm a Yankee fan. And I remember feeling, I've let Marnie down.

Marnie doesn't like me anymore because she thinks I'm with the evil empire. But what a glorious woman. What a glorious human being. But on the other side of the coin, my father adores you and always calls you, remember that old TV show? Mary Hartman, Mary Hartman.

So he always called Mary Hines, Mary Hines. I love Larry Pagan. You need to have Larry Pagan on. Larry Pagan is amazing. We almost did it, right, Steve? I had a Zoom. I guess it was the day we talked about Peter Horndorf. You were out of town, so we did a Zoom,

and I got to meet your dad through Zoom or whatever, and we were going to do a Father's Day episode. Well, let me refer to the story that Mary just referred to. We buried my mother yesterday, and it was a really, I mean, it was a cold, miserable day outdoors, but I was just astonished at how many people showed up. We did it on a Monday afternoon at 1 o'clock. It was Marnie Pagan.

Of course people are going to show up. Anyway, I was just astonished. Some people came a long way to be there, and it was really very delightful. But when my mom turned 49, like my mom did a lot of stuff in life. She was a chair of governing council at the University of Toronto. She was the chair of Atomic Energy of Canada. She was a board member of Southern. She was the chair of the Ontario Council on University Affairs.

Bringing Canadian brass. Yeah, she was the president of the Hamill Philharmonic Orchestra that hired the Canadian brass. She was on boards of three different universities. Anyway, it's a long list of stuff that she did. Amazing. Yeah, she got stuff done. three different universes. Anyway, it's a long list of stuff that she did. She got stuff done. And on her 49th birthday, her two children, my brother and me, my brother and I, we chipped in and bought her vanity license plates were the new thing in Ontario at the time. So it was the first

year. And we decided to pitch in and buy her a vanity license plate for her car, which read MFC 49, 49 for her 49th birthday. And whenever people asked us, what does that MFC stand for on your mom's license plate? We would always say mother first class, but in fact it stood for madam fucking chairman, which is what we used to call her. We to we used to call her that you know because she was she was yeah she really was i mean i know sinatra was the chairman of the board but he obviously hadn't met marty pagan not a fucking chairman who really was that's great so yeah again sorry for your loss but your mom also i think she passed away on the great cup sunday right she did and you know and i'm today i am wearing actually a sweatshirt that

was hers that she got because she was the co-chair of the 1996 great cup that was in hamilton that was the one with the blizzard doug flutie and the blizzard oh i watched yeah yeah it was like i i think she probably arranged to have that blizzard come just to make the game even more memorable but um yeah she was co-chair of the 96 gray cup and she was co-chair of the 1972 gray cup welcoming committee that brought pierre trudeau to hamilton at the time and he came with margaret and i have a nice picture of pierre and margaret and marnie all together and she died on gray cup sunday and i think there's just something meant to be about that were you conscious as a kid of having a superstar as a mother? Absolutely.

Yeah. She was different from all the other moms of my friends. She was just different. I won't say better or worse. She was just different. She was. She was Madam fucking Chairman for one thing. She was.

And yeah. So, and you know, and as the years go on and you see your mother start to get honorary degrees from universities and then get the order of canada and then get you know the the ontario woman of the year award from bill davis and then you start to who was premier in the 70s and 80s i should hasten to add for your younger listeners uh you know then you you definitely start to realize that your mom is a little bit different from everybody else's mom. And of course, she was my mom. So that made her different too. Anyway, thanks.

How old was Marnie when she passed? She was 87, which sounds like a good run. But the last, you know, last few years of her life were pretty tough. So she really was not herself by the end. She got Parkinson's, and it's a hard thing to watch your hero waste away like that because she certainly wasn't, in the end, the way I remember her. And I'm trying really hard, and people are giving me really good advice. They say, don't remember her at the end. Just remember her before the disease hit, and I'm trying hard to do that, and I think that's helpful.

And how is Larry holding up? Larry turned 90 in August. And, you know, I got four kids, but they live in four different countries. So it's really hard to get everybody together. But that was, it seemed to me, a good occasion to get everybody together. So we all gathered in Hamilton and Toronto for my dad's birthday. And, you know, that was really wonderful having everybody together. And my, I mean, my dad next month would have been married to my mom for

67 years. And I think it's accurate to say that in all the, and of course they went out, they were University of Western Ontario students, you know, for probably a year, year and a half before that. So they probably spent almost 70 years together. And if they spent 14 days apart, you know, because he traveled on business or she traveled on business or something over those almost 70 years, if they spent 14 days apart, I bet that would be about it. Wow. Because she always, when he went away for business, she always went with, when she went away on business, you know, as she went away on business for Atomic Energy of Canada or for University of Toronto or something, he always went with.

So he's obviously had a long time to prepare for this moment, but it's still, I'm sure, going to be tough. I just checked in on the live stream, a $5 bill says he wants to know, and I got the answer earlier, but is the on Polly podcast coming back? He wants it is back. Yeah, it is back.

Yeah. Where our second episode drops today. And then he also adds, I'm very sad to see both Mary Hines and Sheila Rogers leave CBC radio this year. So, and then he said an F bomb from Paken. What universe am I living in so from

pagan and heinz it's awesome you gotta come to toronto mike to hear these these f-bombs and then first time i've ever sworn on the radio is that right everyone's not the radio so you still haven't sworn on the radio podcasting no but you're opening all these dangerous doors to us mike well good luckily for you two uh we're winding now, so you can't get into any more trouble. Just before I press record, remember I said I don't want to talk to you guys, and you guys, I think it was Steve who asked about the Brian Linehan picture. Yeah, you have a picture

of me. And I was going to talk about the shirt I'm wearing, and then one more little thing to connect everything to Mary Hines' beloved New York Yankees, of course. So Todd Rundgren produces... Those words should never be used in the same sentence. Shut up! Beloved New York Yankees. So Todd Rund Todd Rundgren produces Those words should never be used in the same sentence. Shut up. Beloved New York Yankees. So Todd Rundgren

produces Bad Out of Hell, big album for Meatloaf, big jam on that is Paradise by the Dashboard Light. Of course, there's the Baseball is a Euphemism for Sex,

Phil Rizzuto. Janice Neal's favorite song. You got the Yankees announcer Phil Rizzuto. Stop right there. I gotta know right now. I always, it was like an opera. It was like an opera.

And there's so many parts to it. There's like six unique different parts to it. I always loved it. It's the play at the place. Holy cow. Thank you. You're gonna make it. Holy cow.

He's going to third. Holy cow. Love it. So shout out to the late great Phil Rizzuto. Okay. So to answer the question you asked before the recording, so the Brian Linehan picture is here because there's a great rock band out of Winnipeg, Manitoba.

They're called The Watchmen, and I'm a big fan. And three out of the four members are FOTMs. I still got one more Joey Serlin to get there. Hey, Mike, where's Brian Linehan from? Hamilton. Correct. Woo-hoo! Yeah, there's been a lot of, you know,

so they gave me that because they want me to know that Brian Linehan would be proud of me because I always, I was always inspired by his research before he talked to a guest.

Because you do so much homework. I am the, he does? Yeah, so I'm trying to be Brian Linehan over here. He would be proud of you. That's great to hear. I met him once.

He would be proud of you. I only met him once. I met him once because I would watch his show and he walked, it was like Bloor and Runnymede area. He was walking through a park and we said hi to each other. That was my Brian Linehan moment here. But quickly, we did a lot of shouts out to Ridley Funeral Home today, but there's a measuring tape for you, Mary, from Ridley Funeral Home.

One for you as well, Steve Pakin. Oh, and it's a measuring tape for you, Mary, from Ridley Funeral Home. One for you as well, Steve Pakin. Oh, and it's portable. I love this. Oh, yes, finally. So, TVO and CBC talk today, and this is appropriate because in the 1976, and this is episode 1376. So, 1976, Mary, where were the Olympics? Montreal.

Yes, in Montreal. So, there was apparently, I met somebody who worked on the TVO broadcast side, and he tells me that in 1976 there was an alliance where TVO and CBC worked together in some broadcasting, some regard, broadcasting the Olympics in his closet and then he kept, you know, he discovered Toronto Mike and he said, there's a guy who might actually want this shirt and he gave me this shirt.

Is this a 1976? 76, yeah. Wow. So I don't even wash it. Like I literally, this is where it goes in my closet. Wow.

When I have somebody on who's very CBC-ish to me, I put it on. I'm honored. That is beautiful. Dwight Drummond or Matt Galloway or Jill Deacon. You know how. I worked there too, you know. I'm honored. That is beautiful. Dwayne Drummond or Matt Galloway or Jill Deacon.

I worked there too, you know. I know, but now you're TVO. I don't have a TVO shirt. Okay, but so Mary. We'll get you the

Pokeroo head. You know, Steve is Pokeroo. Did you know that? Randy was Pokeroo. He said it smells like the inside of a hockey bag

that hasn't been washed in 40 years. We're closing with a mind blow here. But Mary Hines, this is your Toronto Mike debut. You kicked ass, you took names, and now you're an FOTM. Am I an FOTM?

Friend of Toronto Mike. Honored. Absolutely honored. Thank you, Mike. And if Paykin plays his cards right, he might end up in the FOTM Hall of Fame. Oh, working on it. Working on it. Because you know what? You brought me a couple of great guests in a row. You're already thinking about who you're going to bring in next time?

I'm aspiring to be in your good books. I like the idea of you dropping by once every few months or whatever or a couple months with somebody that you bring on the show to make their debut. Okay. Like what you did with Mary here was fantastic. Mary Hines on Toronto Mic'd. Amazing. I love the fact that this here was fantastic. Mary Hines on Toronto Mic. Amazing.

I love the fact that this is the first time Mary and I have been behind microphones in 27 years or something like that. Yeah, 27 years. I'm kidding. First time together. Do you know what we should do? What? You know when you do your music Toronto Mic. Kick out the jams.

Kick out the jams. Do you ever do it in like a playoff format? Because, and I only ask, because Steve is team Tony Bennett, Frank Sinatra. My. Classic rock. No, no. My question is, in a world that contained Johnny Mercer, how was Frank Sinatra known as the voice? I mean, if those aren't fighting words, right?

Like, I will bring you Johnny Mercer turn. He wrote my favorite Frank song. He was a genius. One for my baby and one more for the road. And he was the Atchison, Topeka, and the Santa Fe, which I can play on the bass, and it's not easy. All right. It sounds like a train.

The bass is like the train chugging along the track. It's so beautiful and Johnny that voice I can't wait to kick out the jams of Mary Hines and Steve Paikin we need to do Johnny Mercer vs Frank Sinatra it'll be epic

which reminds me of an episode we did which was with Bruce Dobigin which we did Frank Sinatra vs Tony Bennett we did that episode so you're on the same wavelength but I'd be team Tony is with Bruce Dobigin, which we did, Frank Sinatra versus Tony Bennett. We did that episode. Oh, yeah. So you're on the same wavelength. But I'd be team Tony in that. Were you team Frank in that?

Yes. I was team Frank. Over Tony Bennett? Well, no, it wasn't. He set it up as a versus. It really wasn't versus. It was really a... A Madaluzza Santa.

But I think most people in The Great Unwashed, the most people would pick Frank over Tony. This is just because of the catalog and the legacy. Well, you know who Frank's choice was. Frank said Tony had the best voice

he'd ever heard. Okay, can we just like spare a moment for Johnny Mercer? Will you throw me a bone? Johnny's not the same category. I'm sorry. He's just not. Nobody should be. I don't know. Okay. We'll be back. And that's... I don't think this woman wants to retire

she just needs a different show I feel like Mary doesn't want to retire she's just done with tapestry you know what there's an opening at Indie 88 Josie Dye is moving on to Chum and they need a new morning show host it could be Mary Hines

I'll make some calls after this and that brings us to the end of our 1376 show you can follow me on Twitter and Blue Sky Mary Hines. I'll make some calls after this. And that brings us to the end of our 1,376th show. You can follow me on Twitter and Blue Sky. I'm at Toronto Mike. Steve Pakin is on Twitter. He's Spakin, S. Pakin. Mary, is there anywhere on social media to follow you?

We've been instructed not to do anything on Twitter anymore. Well, you're almost independent now. Well, no, but, you know, since Elon Musk branded the CBC a tool of the state, we no longer work on X slash Twitter. There's a different billionaire waiting for you over there. I'm on Instagram personally, but for the Japanese Fountain Pen Inc. accounts. So that's a separate thing entirely. And I call my daughter a random.

Who am I trying to kid? Much love to all who made this Real Talk possible. That's Great Lakes Brewery, that's Palma Pasta, that's Raymond James Canada, that's Mineris, that's Recycle My Electronics, and Ridley Funeral Home.

See you, this is Tuesday, let's find out who's coming up next. I should do this before, but let's see here. Real time. The next guest on Toronto Mic, some guy named Dave Hodge. No! Yeah, the top 100.

Top 100 of 2023. Oh, I love Dave Hodge. Well, he's our next guest. See you all then. Rosie and Grace Yeah, the wind is cold But the smell of snow Warms us today then. is rosy and everything is rosy and gray yeah