Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Michael Landsberg and Steve Paikin: Toronto Mike'd #668

Episode Date: June 16, 2020

Mike reunites Michael Landsberg and Steve Paikin who first broadcast together 42 years ago at CIUT and Willowdowns Cable 10.

Hello, folks. You know what I forgot today? What? Clearly, I didn't get the memo. I do not have that shock of white hair in the front like you two guys do. I feel left out. I have had that since I was born. I know you have.

I've almost known you since you were born. Almost. You were there, I think, were you there in the delivery room? No, but shortly thereafter. I was embarrassed that you saw my mom's vagina. See, Pagan, that's why you can't go live early. You never know. Good point.

What's going on, Mike? Nice. Michael, I almost called you Mike. I realized. No, don't call him that. That's the name of the guy who fixes his car. Good point. It's a good point.

You know, I haven't used my car. It's amazing like in the last how many months i don't know like since uh since um uh rudy gobert tested positive uh the utah jazz we're gonna play oklahoma city and somebody from gosh that's march already somebody from utah came down and said uh we shouldn't play this game that was it right that was like the end of the world right there. I'm going to pause all this conversation because I know Michael has to jet at 4 sharp. So Michael, you have my permission

at 4 o'clock or whatever. If you left it, I'd understand. So we're going to dive right in. Okay. Here we go. Toronto we go. Welcome to episode 668 of Toronto Mic'd, a weekly podcast about anything and everything. Proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, a fiercely independent craft brewery who believes in supporting communities, good times and brewing amazing beer. Palma Pasta. Enjoy the taste of fresh homemade Italian pasta and entrees from Palma Pasta in Mississauga and Oakville.

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Text TRONOMIKE to 59559. And our newest sponsor, CDN Technologies. Your IT and cybersecurity experts. I'm Mike from TRontomike.com and joining me this week, reuniting our Michael Landsberg and Steve Pakin. Hey, Berger. You know, okay, so I got to be honest with you. Steve and I, I know you're going to tell the story about how we used to work together at U of Steve and I, I know you're going to tell the story about how we used to work together at U of T.

Well, it wasn't work, but we started together, and we have been estranged since then. You know, I never liked him, and when he started at TVO with his, you know, oh, look at me, you know, I'm so thoughtful. I have all these interesting guests. I thought, you know what? Fuck him. Is he allowed to use that kind of language on these airwaves?

Yes. I guess he just did. Yeah. Lovely to see you too, Michael. How are you, bud? Since we last spoke, just grand. Actually, you know what? You know I listen to you on the radio, but I also heard your interview with Toronto Mike,

which was excellent. In fact, I think I tweeted out the fact that it was a great and really important conversation about mental health issues, which you guys got into, which was absolutely fascinating. And then you did an episode of The Agenda. When was that? Maybe a month or so ago, six weeks ago, something like that? It's crazy, but it's like all of us have taken repeated blows to the head and you don't know what day it is, what day it's, it's, you know, it's like all of us have taken repeated blows to the head and you don't know what day it is, what day it is, you know, it's, it's just this sort of crazy time. It was a while ago for sure. But you know, it's, uh, and by the way, Mike, you know, we're

done with you. Thank you for introducing me, you know, for setting us up, uh, you and enjoy the conversation. Uh, you know, you and I I did or you did an interview with me. I don't even remember what year it was on TVO. And it was kind of one of the first things that I did that was was sort of public about mental health. It was a different it was a different audience. And I think probably of all the things I've done, even more than Bell Let's Talk Day, which was seen by this crazy number of people, was doing your show and the impact that that had on other people. So you gave me my starter, man.

Thanks for that. I'm actually very thrilled to hear that. I remember that interview very well. It's probably a decade ago already. Oh, my gosh. And Mike, when I say Mike, I'm talking Toronto Mike, not Michael, who I've always called Michael. But you have to understand, we've known each other since we were, I think, 19 and 18. And I had absolutely no clue that my friend Michael

had been suffering from mental health issues. And he was a master at masking the whole thing. And you could have knocked me over with a feather. I remember when we had our first conversation about it. And sorry, Mike, I don't know if you wanted to go down this road already, but here we are. And I'm so glad that you have become like a national force for this issue. I can't tell you how proud I am of you. As I say, we've known each other since we were teenagers. And the amount of good that you have done by going public and being available to people who live with this all the time, well, I just take my hat off to you. I'm very, very proud of your accomplishments in this. See, you and I are both willing to take our hats off because we still have hair,

which given when we first met is an accomplishment. I don't know what Mike is laughing at because that is some puffy hair that you've got going there, Toronto Mike. That is seriously, look at the height on that. That is pandemic hair. Yeah. It's not an insult when I say, oh my God. Now it's an insult. insult when I say, oh my God. And now it's an insult. So. You know, Mike, one of the things I love about this guy, I'm always laughing when I'm around him. He just makes me laugh. He's got the best sense of humor. Oh, thanks. I'm going to ask a couple of, we're going to go back to the origin story, but like, how often do you guys see each other in person these days? Like pre COVID, I mean, like how often would you guys

be together oh covid hasn't lessened the amount of time we spend together because we we we don't spend a lot of time together you know busy lives like like steve and i you know sometimes you grow apart from people because you you grow in different directions right but that's not what happened here at all it's just you know like got, you got your busy life. And then when someone is not in your sort of normal rotation, you get out of the habit. But I, you know, I think that, I think that we both have the same amount of love for each other and respect for each other. So it's not one of those where you go, well,

we haven't seen each other in, you know, a little while, but so there, there's, there's no other story there. If you're hunting for it, Mike. No, I would say the exact same thing. The beauty of my relationship with Michael Landsberg is that I can go for a year without seeing him, but the next time I see him, we pick up right from where we left off. It is warm. It is loving. And we've known each other for 42 years. We met at University of Toronto Radio in 1978. So that's a long time. Wow. And were you just in the same class or something?

Like, how do you meet 42 years ago? No, we weren't in the same class because Steve was a student. I was a hanger on, so to speak. I actually failed out of University of Toronto. And clearly, you can tell that I'm not the least bit of shame because the best thing that ever happened to me was the knowledge that I was failing out and it was this is what brought us together was was me parking my mom's car on a parking space on Harvard and I remember thinking like why would I go take this exam I'm just gonna fail but you know I got

nothing everyone I went to school with, you know, I got nothing. Everyone I went to school with was, you know, in general, guys I went to high school with, right? And they all had plans to become doctors or lawyers or accountants. Actually, everyone wanted to be a doctor. If you couldn't be a doctor, you became a dentist. If you couldn't become a dentist, you became a chiropractor. If you couldn't become a cop, like there was this whole hierarchy of things, but I didn't want any of that. So I walked into U of T radio after deciding I wasn't going to take this exam. And the next day, you know, it's not like U of T radio is like, oh my gosh, I can't believe you got on that fast. It was like, you know, if you had a pulse and even if you had a recent pulse,

they would put you on. So that's what got me into U of T radio. And I don't know what got Stephen to U of T radio. Steve, I think I remember meeting you out in front of, was it Varsity Stadium or Varsity Arena? Which one? Yeah, good question. Don't remember. I remember how I ended up at U of T radio, though. It was actually before the school year started. It was, I guess, the last week of August.

It was orientation week. And I went to Hart House and I passed the, you know, there's the table for the chess club and the archery club and the debating club and the whatever else club. And there was a table that said U of T radio. And I think Steve Kerr, do you remember that guy? Steve Kerr was sitting behind the table. He was sort of the unofficial station manager. And I walked up to him, and I don't know, like, it's just as if a light bulb went on. And I said to him, do you have anybody who does play-by-play for the varsity blues hockey or football? And he said, no. And I said, do you think I could do it?

And he said, sure. And I said, you mean I could be the Foster Hewitt of the University of Toronto? And of course, nobody, well, anybody of a certain age, less than 60 may not know who Foster Hewitt was, but he called the Leaf Games back then. Yes, let me jump in and say that there's a pretty good chance that Kerr didn't know who Foster Hewitt was. This was like it was people that were still living the hippie life. You know, everybody was smart,

probably not as smart as they thought they were, but everyone, you know, was a cerebral place, you know, everybody was smart, probably not as smart as they thought they were, but everyone, you know, it was a cerebral place who, you know, people who love music. So you and I were like, oh my gosh, these guys are insane. And I just, I just thought that was kind of funny when you said. But that's when, that's when we met, we met, you ended up being the color commentator. I was the play-by-play guy and we did not true no true what do you mean i started off as play-by-play and i had no idea what i was doing and i think somehow i indicated to you uh uh like get in here and help me and then that carved out the rules because i i was i was not capable at that point of doing play-by-play isn't that funny i don't remember that at all i just i i seem to have those defined roles remembered from the get go.

And we, we did the hockey, we did the football. We didn't do, but I don't think we did basketball. I think it was the hockey and football. And we, and we,

I think we were probably awful and absolutely loved it. I think that we were awful, but the reason why you and I have had careers in broadcasting is that I think we knew that we were awful. And that sense of humility, for real. I went to Ryerson with a whole bunch of guys who all wanted to do broadcasting and they all thought they were great. And I was probably at that point better than them. And when I say probably, I mean, I was better than them, but I still thought I was really crappy. So it was like,

I'm out busting my ass to learn how to get better. And they're all going, oh, you know, we're so amazing. And I think that that was the difference between us. That's where you get to come in, Mike Boone. We took a breath there. You better jump in when we take a breath. I need to point out, the first time I talked to Michael Landsberg on this program, I didn't realize that white streak of hair in the front. Like, I guess maybe you were wearing your hair differently that day. I don't know. Yes, I have.

I'm a man of great mystery. And, you know, I wear my hair. Actually, I haven't worn my hair differently in a thousand years. But my hair is getting longer now and longer. I mean, this is the longest I've ever gone without a haircut probably since my birth. Okay. Because I had Avery Haynes on this program. Yes. She's got it too. She's got it, but she was tested for a medical, I don't know, disorder or disease or something where one of the main symptoms is a streak of white hair in the front. And she saw me and we were just chatting. I had shorter hair and I guess it was more obvious.

But when I have shorter hair, there's like a patch of white right here, right? And she asked me if I had ever been tested for this disease. And I'm wondering, Michael, if you've ever been told about the... No, but you see, as a mental health sufferer with general anxiety disorder, we tend to panic at the thought of illness.

So thanks a lot for indicating to me that maybe this streak of white that I've had in my hair since I was born, it's actually a birthmark. It's called an albino streak. And my mom noticed it right away when I was born. And it was, it was like, well, why does my son have like hair that's two different colors and the doctor said it's an albino streak and will always be with him um i think my mom was going oh my god what else is coming with this albino streak and uh i'll be honest until you

retold that part of the story i thought you were joking earlier when you said you've always had this yeah i've had it no no he has since I was born. I thought that's a joke because you got it in your early 20s because I started to get in some grays in my early 20s. But you really did always have this. It was that my mom was prematurely gray, but this has been always with me. And it was funny because I never thought about it really.

And then when I was in high school and I was, as Steve will remember, it's not like I was a dynamo with the ladies. So I was scared of a lot of things. Or scared isn't the right word. I was not the person that I am now. I was not sort of comfortable with myself. And somebody told me once, oh, you know, these people were talking about you,

like what a weirdo you are for dying your hair like in high school and i said what they think i dye my hair and this person that was telling me goes well you know don't you and i go no i don't dye my hair i'm not you know like and it was it was like this i was i was shocked that people wouldn't just assume that it was natural. Interesting. Now, at CIUT, when does it end for you two as a dynamic duo? Like, is it when, Michael, you mentioned you go off to Ryerson. Like, is it that you simply just dropped out and therefore were no longer allowed on the station? Like, how did it end for you two? Well, I didn't drop out. Just thank you for saying that.

But, you know, I was kicked out. I failed out. Right. And I want full credit for that. You know what the guy next door is doing? He's mowing his lawn. I'm going to go shut the window. It's starting to bug me. I'll be right back. You guys go ahead.

I guess he's not Jewish. We Jews are not big lawnmowers. Oh, OK. You have to explain those those jokes to me. Usually I I'm usually producing with Ralph Ben-Murray. And he explains those jokes to me. He went to my high school. He was ahead of me, but he went to Forest Hill,

I believe. Oh, okay. I was just chatting with him. I can't keep track of all the plays. Now he's a Hamilton guy. So it's funny because Paykin was a Hamilton guy and now he's a Toronto guy, but Ben-Murray is a Toronto guy who's now a Hamilton guy.

Okay, before he puts his headphones in, ask me a question about him and I'll give you the truth. I'll give you any answer you want. What did I miss? Too late. Actually, you know what? Here's the one story. I, of course, listened to the one-on-one interview

that you two guys did. And the one story that I don't think emerged from that was the fact that Michael did not, I believe this is right, I don't think he said his first word until he was three. You're right. You know what? I mean, I would not have, if you would have said, oh, you know, tell me about your childhood and tell me about, you know, did you always like speaking? And there's two things that come to mind that, again, I wouldn't have thought of. I didn't speak till I was three. And my grandfather, who died shortly after that,

and I don't think it was because I wasn't speaking, was like convinced my parents that there must be something wrong with me, right? And the fear is if a kid doesn't talk that maybe he's slow to learn, right? Which brings other issues, obviously, to the fore fore and my mom took me to the pediatrician Dr. Lasky who like every Jewish kid in Toronto went to dr Lasky and my mom said, you know, my father is a little bit worried about Michael and he said don't don't worry about Michael Michael's fine and he'll talk when he wants to talk and he stood behind me and said Michael you want some ice cream? And I turned around and went like this he goes he's fine He'll talk when he wants to talk and apparently like, like I thought of this when my kids were like

that age, I thought, oh my God, if my kid was three and not speaking, I'd be freaked out. And I really came to, and I would be interested in both of your answers to this. I don't know if Toronto Mike speaks actually about, you know, if he answers questions or if this is, oh, I can ask you the most personal things in your life, but you can't ask me anything. But when did you first realize that it was appealing to be, if not the center of attention, to be speaking into a microphone or to a camera or to an audience? And for me, it was when I was nine, I emceed my brother's bar mitzvah. My brother's four years older than me. And I remember just loving that feeling of being in front of the audience and talking and people saying, hey, nice job. So, yeah, Steve, since you're the media professional, yeah, let's hear your answer. I don't know that I actually share that feeling because I think one of the reasons I went into the job that I went into is that I'm far more interested in what other people think.

And therefore, I have the perfect job for that because I just ask questions and then listen. Yeah, you're just a real hero, Steve. Oh, yeah. Let's make Landsberg look like a self-centered jackass, you know. I didn't intentionally do that, but it had the added advantage of having that effect. It was the side benefit, okay? And how about you, Mike? I never thought I should be anywhere near a microphone

because I mean, that was for big booming voices. Like that was for Tom Rivers. That's how I felt like, you know, what am I doing near a microphone? So really this is all just sort of to be on the true origin story. And I'll try to shorten it. Cause I know you, you got a jet at four o'clock,

but the true origin stories, I was the backend digital technical producer. Sorry. This story is going to take 40 minutes to tell. Go back and talk to the lawnmower guy. Hey, go ahead. Oh, shite. Okay.

So basically I was the guy helping Humble and Fred. You guys ever heard of Humble and Fred? Of course we have. Oh, yeah. They were on CFNY when we were back in the day. See, now that I know you heard of them, I'm probably going to hit you up at some point and try to book you on the program because I produce their show now. But I was putting heard of them, I'm probably going to hit you up at some point and try to book you on the program. Cause I produce their show now, but I was putting together their podcast,

the backend infrastructure. So they could broadcast because they couldn't get hired by a terrestrial radio station to save their lives. And they weren't done broadcasting together. So I came in and said, Hey guys, there's this new thing called podcasts. And I started setting them up in 2006 to podcast.

So I watched them do their things here and there. In 2011, they start doing it every single day. I'm kind of watching them in the room, but I'm not speaking into any microphones. And then after a couple of weeks of watching them do their thing with interesting people like Steve Paikin and Michael Landsberg, although not specifically those two people, I realized, hey, I think I can do that differently. I just have to leave my comfort zone and speak into a microphone. And there you go.

Eight years ago, I started talking into a microphone. And here you are, 668 episodes later. Well done. Round of applause, everybody. Woo, thank you. Yes, and now my dream has come true. I got to, oh, I had a song for you. I'm gonna play it while I finish that thought here.

Uh, I know from that one first note, I know this song. And I know the last time I heard it, Michael. Michael, you know, I don't think it was the last time you heard it. It might've been. I think the last time I heard this song was at your wedding. You know, this was not our wedding song. Our wedding song was Lionel Richie's song by Peaches and Herb. Where are they now?

Where's Peaches? Where's Herb? Which one was which, by the way? But thank you for playing that. I mean, this is a lot of fun because as Steve and I both said, you know, sometimes you actually lie about, you know, your affinity for someone, right? But this is, you know, like 100% genuine. So this is kind of a joy for me, for sure. But I thought that wasn't reunited yours and Karen's song?

for me, for sure. But I thought that wasn't reunited, yours and Karen's song? No, but it was played at our wedding, for sure. It had some significance to it. Yeah, okay. So when I learned, by talking to you, Michael, when I learned you and Steve, who's a great FOTM, now you're both FOTMs, but Steve had already,

he was already an FOTM. And I thought, hey, these FOTMs have a history together way back 42 years ago. If I could reunite them on Toronto Mic and just, I envisioned it where I would kind of do what I'm doing, which is shut the F up and listen to you two kind of converse and reminisce and catch up on the program. Like that would be just, to me, that's compelling audio. So I'm basically designing the show for myself at this point. Well, I don't know what you think, Michael,

but I'd say the experience is highly overrated so far. You know, I'm enjoying it because statistically, let's take a look at the score after the first period of play. Landsberg three and Pekin two. Landsberg has dominated time of possession. Landsberg three and Pekin two. Landsberg is dominated time of possession. You know, this is, if I were the host and all of us have hosted many shows,

I would try to just tee it up and sit back and enjoy a conversation. Like I always thought on Off the Record, the most fun I had was two people engaging one another in a conversation that was unfolding in front of the camera or in front of the microphone. So I'll be here to moderate a little bit. Pagan knows a little bit about that. And so I've got you guys off the air. So your CIUT experience, there's also a C cable 10 chapter to your lives together. I need to hear

the details about that. And Michael, Michael, you forgot the name of the show. I, I, when I, when I listened to you and Toronto, no, that, but sorry, that was, that was a show I did at, uh, at Ryerson CKLN instant replay, right? That's not the name of the show. We did. Do you not remember the name of the show? We did. you not remember the name of the show we did? What did I say it was? I think you said it was Instant Replay. No, it was Time Out. Time Out.

Yeah, you said it was Time Out. Yeah, I think that's what I said. You know, I've done all these crappy shows, and it's hard to keep them together in your mind. It was... We did a show. Yeah. Michael Landsberg and I did a show at Willowdowns Cable, which had the smallest footprint of any Rogers station in the city. I think it was maybe five square blocks that you could get Willowdowns Cable signal in. But again, a good opportunity for us to be terrible and not very much downside because almost nobody's watching. And I think

there were more than one, it was more than one occasion where the only caller we would get in the course of an hour would have been your father. My father, Ron, who, yeah, would call up and guys, I just want to say you're doing a great job. And I had him do that. I remember, I think I filled in for John Oakley at 6.40 in the mornings because I got hired for a year to do two segments. This was the only easy money that I've ever made in broadcasting because we're in Canada. People don't throw money at you.

But they came to me and said, we want you to do a segment at 7.30 and 8.30. And the 7.31, you'll be on with Bill Waters and we'll call it Leap Breakfast. Well, it didn't go that well. I mean, I thought, I mean, from my knowledge of what's good, this was compelling, right? Because Bill hated me. I was like the bane of his existence. And when I realized that it was like, okay, I got to do more of this because I knew that there was a limit on how long they would

allow him to be frustrated with me and eventually that I would be terminated. But it wasn't my job. It wasn't my full-time job. It was just kind of a bonus. So like the first day we were on together, I remember saying, oh, I don't know, they were talking about training in the offseason. And I said, you know, Bill, I don't think people really care about how athletes train in the offseason. I think said, you know, Bill, I don't think people really care about how athletes train in the off season. I think what they really care about was how the Maple Leafs were embarrassed in game seven against the Philadelphia Flyers. And he had been the assistant general manager at the time. So he went, what?

So I said, well, I mean, you, you guys lost seven to one. You know, I think people want to know what happened, you know, to, to create that kind of embarrassment. He goes, nobody was embarrassed. And it was like, Whoa, cause I thought, I thought it was actually not a controversial thing to say. So that's the way it was. And I started to, uh, as I said, I realized, man, this guy hates me. Oh my gosh. And he had actually liked me before cause we put them on off the record at

different times. And early on TSN, he did a show called with Pat Marsden. It was what was it called? Hmm. I'll remember. Can't remember the name of that show either, right? Yeah, exactly. But he so I knew, oh, my gosh, this guy hates me. And he was a star.

Right. And I was a role player. So I knew that my time there was finite so I started to put little jabs in that would no one else would see them as jabs but I knew that they would annoy him and uh okay this was the end I'm just remembering I've never spoken about this but he said something about uh you know Doug Gilmore uh you know we wanted to sign him but he said something about, you know, Doug Gilmore, you know, we wanted to sign him, but he didn't want to sign. So we traded him to New Jersey. And I remember thinking, I don't think that's true. So I had interviewed Gilmore on Off the Record. So I, you know,

I called him up and said, hey, would you come on tomorrow and tell us what the straight story was? He goes, absolutely. He said, I didn't want to leave Toronto. And I don't remember the details, but it was, in a lot of ways, it came down to him, Bill realizing, I think, that maybe he wasn't going to win the argument with Doug Gilmore at that point. So he called in sick that day. So Gilmore was on by himself. And he said, no, no, I told them, you know, before they traded me, I went to them again and said, I don't want to be traded. So that was the

end of me and Bill. Well, the name of the show we did, Michael, was called Jock Talk. Oh, yeah. Jock Talk. Who came up with that? I think you did, actually. I don't think so. But sure, I'll take credit for that. You know, I mean, because it was, you know, it was, we got syndicated, didn't we? Like around the world. Oh, no, sorry, around the block. I'm pretty sure I'd have remembered that if that happened. I am interested in the details here. I'm pretty sure I'd have remembered that if that happened.

I am interested in the details here. Like, so is it just that you guys had a good experience at CIUT? So you approach somebody at Cable 10 and like, can you give me the origin? Yes, that's exactly right, Mike. The origin of Job Talk. Okay. That's exactly right. We had a great time doing the radio and we decided, I wonder if there's some way we can figure out, or one of us said, you know, can we figure out some kind of TV thing here as well? And we got that. And in fact, you know what? My first

professional job and Michael's first professional job were in the same place because we did the U of T radio and then we did jock talk. And I'm sorry, am I interrupting you, Michael? You got to return some emails while I'm in the middle of my story here. Oh, he's, does he know he's muted? And he's muted himself. So we can't hear him either. Okay, so now you're going to feel like a schmuck because, you know, oh, Michael, are we interrupting you? I'm trying to, you know, we do

Isolation Nation. The show designed, Steve, to help people with their mental health problems during COVID-19. So if you think that, you know, your stupid little story about how Jock Talk started is more important than saving people's lives, then hey, good for you. But that was for real what I said. I am appropriately chastised.

That's good. Keep going. But then, yes, we both ended up at CHFI. Michael got to CHFI first. And I think you were working on a show called Chronicle at the time. That is true. I did Weekend News. Okay. Feel free to laugh when you think at that time, I honestly had never read the front section of the newspaper. I thought that all the other sections were there to keep the sports section dry if it was raining. So I go into CHFI to audition, and they say,

so would you be willing to do news? I go, are you kidding? I live for news. I'm a newsaholic. Oh, my gosh. I want to be Sam Donaldson. Oh, my God. Can I be Sam Donaldson?

ABC newscaster back in the day. I remember the eyebrows. Yeah, the eyebrows. So I was at CHFI doing Chronicle during the week and then Weekend News. And you, I believe, called me and you said there's an opening for a news reporter at CHFI and CFTR, as it was then called. They apparently had a Queens Park guy already and they wanted to create a Toronto City Hall Bureau. So I applied for the job. And I think Michael, he either put in a good word for me or he tried to torpedo it and it didn't work. But either way, I got hired there and that was 1982. And we worked together there along with

a guy who would come a little bit later, Paul Cook, who is what, 25 years now on 680 News, something like that. And there used to be a time, actually, Mike, when, not Michael, but Mike, there was a time when Michael Landsberg and Paken and Paul Cook and another one of our buddies there, Rob Davidson, pretty much once a year would go out for breakfast or lunch or something like that, because we all worked there and we kept that connection going. And then, you know, we have kids and real life intervened

and it just sort of fell aside. Okay, I don't think I even knew about the fact that you both had your first, you know, paying gig. Cause I, it's safe to say you weren't paid by cable 10 or CIUT. This was correct. So you're Steve, Steve, Steve was not paid. Like, okay, my, I need to step just uh representing the listeners right now like do you guys ever real do you realize that you guys who do the ciut together you show you do the cable 10 show you both kind of end up working at chfi together at the very the dawn of your career you're both tremendous success stories like steve pagan i don't know if you know this michael but steve pagan hosts the agenda on TV Ontario

and is one of the most respected interviewers in the country. I was unaware of that. Is that true? I'm not sure if that's true. Did you say TV Ontario like TVO? Right. One sec. What number

is TVO? The Polka Dot Door Network. Remember? Polka Dot Door and Today's Special? See, Steve was at, let me tell you my perception of it. Steve was at, I guess, CBC, CBLT, and worked on elections. And I mean, it's clear when you watch Steve broadcast, he's in control, right? That he's really, really good at his job. I'm not saying that because he's my buddy. role, right? That he's really, really good at his job. I'm not saying that because he's my buddy. It's just the truth. And I was shocked when you went to TVO, but, you know, I don't know what your thinking was at the time, but whatever your thinking was, was the right move. I mean, you were kind of on the leading edge and you got to, you got to host a show and do interviews

and do your own interviews and do your own thing, which clearly is kind of the dream for almost everybody. Well, I thought the dream at the time actually was to host the six o'clock news on CBC television, which is really what I wanted to do. I'd worked at CBC for, I think about six years and all of it leading up to that. I'd been a general assignment reporter, Queen's Park reporter. I'd done a little sports, done some stuff on the radio. And anyway, they'd let you do a lot of different stuff at CBC, but it was all aimed at becoming the six o'clock news anchor. And then Fraser Kelly, I'm sure whom you remember, retired and they put me in there and it was so underwhelming. It was not the job I thought it was going to be. There was no writing allowed. There was no reporting allowed.

Basically, you read intros that other people wrote and had very little say in the choice of story. Anyway, it wasn't what I thought it was going to be. So when TVO came along after a year and they said, we're going to create a new daily show. It's going to be current affairs. You're going to do interviews. You're going to make documentaries. It's going to be fun. You should try it. I was ready. And that was 27 years ago. So look at you guys now. I mean, Michael now hosts a morning show on 1050.

He's the host of the morning show there now. He's a great, we've spoken about this earlier, but a tremendous advocate for mental health it's i mean let's face it this will be the legacy of michael landsberg uh when he decides to hang up the microphone and uh you well and off the record i mean holy cow who gets to host a show for 25 years for goodness sakes not me that's really 18 18 well thank you for those extra seven i was hanging on for the last couple of years because, you know, going back to that time when OTR, when I quit OTR, just as Stu Johnston, who was the president of the company radio. And he went, wow, that was really fast how you said that. No, I mean, it was like we were all aware, at least I was aware that TV was changing

and that TSN would replace Off the Record. I thought this a couple of years earlier with SportsCenter, right? It's like, okay, well, because when we first launched Off the Record, you couldn't help but get viewers. And at the end, it was way more of a challenge to get half the audience because, you know, people used to come home and watch TSN, right? You know, that, that's what they did. So, uh, it was 18 years. That's still a hell of a run. Yeah. You know what? I, I, I'd like to sit here and tell you

that, well, I wouldn't tell you if this was what I thought, but so much of our success was because there was no competition. That Sportsnet, first of all, didn't exist at the beginning, and second of all, couldn't compete because TSN had the audience, right? Legacy stations, it's so hard to take an audience away. If we had done the same thing off the record at Sportsnet, say, we probably would have been canceled after a year or two. But we had the power of TSN, you know, we had the power of dominating the marketplace. And we were along for the ride. I mean, I'm not saying that. I'm going to totally disagree with you. I'm going to totally disagree. I think there's 10%. There's no question 10% is where you do it. And it's all about a place and a time. But holy cow, man, you think anybody else hosting that show would have done as well as you? There's not a

chance. You had absolutely the right skill set, the way you handled guests, the way you handled topics, the fact that you could do everything from hockey to basketball to baseball to wrestling, the way you handled topics, the fact that you could do everything from hockey to basketball to baseball to wrestling, which I know were always big hit shows for you. That skill set matched with that particular broadcaster. That was a very good marriage for a very long time. I was lucky in a lot of ways. One of them was that after a short period of time, One of them was that after a short period of time, Bob McElwain started producing the show. And Bob really created the show in my image, so to speak. Like his attitude was, you know, like there's no formula for creating a show.

Let's create a show that you're comfortable with, that highlights your strengths and masks your weaknesses. So he did a great job of that and the show kind of evolved into something that without consciously thinking about it was something that i was really comfortable with but you know that's a smart producer then who understands who understands the talent of his host and shapes a format around it good for him absolutely but also you know i i do appreciate your thoughts and uh like i'm not saying that I had nothing to do with it, but the boost of being at TSN and the power that TSN held over the marketplace. I mean, in a lot of ways,

it was like the fan radio owned the marketplace when TSN radio started. And no matter what TSN did, TSN radio couldn't carve into the legacy of the fans. So it was like the roles were reversed for me, at least going to radio where TSN was number two, as opposed to television where TSN was number one. And even though I think even though the even though Sportsnet got the hockey rights, I think, you know, TSN has still continued to at least be equal in terms of audience

without spending a half a billion dollars every year on hockey rights. So someone's doing something right there. Yeah. When you guys are at Jock Talk, Cable 10, I almost called it Jock Strap, but that was a different program.

Yeah. Okay. Jock Talk. Did you have any vision that you'd end up where you are now 40 years later, or whatever, how many years later, that you'd both be kind of at the top of your game in this marketplace? I think we both knew that we wanted to do that kind of work. Obviously not necessarily there or not necessarily that subject matter, but I think we both knew that we had been bitten by some kind of broadcasting bug and that that was how we wanted to make our living henceforth.

Yeah. I think that that expresses kind of the way I looked at it. I think there's a couple of reasons why Steve, three reasons why, why Steve and I, and I would, you know, I would put us both in the same group, why we've been able to do the things in our career that we wanted to do.

Number one is some talent God given, or if you don't believe in God, you know, just the luck of the genetic draw, which is stuff that you can't change. But there's also this sense of humility that both of us had that, hey, you know what, I need to get better. Wow, I really do suck at this point. And I want to get better. And three, I think was just, you know, a burning desire to find our way at this, which was, you know, totally natural. Like, I didn't want to do this for any other reason than the whole idea of doing it appealed to me. It wasn't like I wanted to be famous and it wasn't like I had delusions of making a ton of money. I just loved the process. So this formula, this path you both took where it starts, again, U of T radio,

and then there's U of T radio, then Cable 10, and then you finally get an actual paying gig and you start to build your careers from there. Does that path even exist for an up-and-coming student of journalism who wants to be the next Steve Pagan or Michael Landsberg? Can you follow the same type of path in 2020? Steve, you want to go first? No.

Okay. Then I'm glad to go and I'll take his time because clearly he doesn't worry about the next generation of broadcasters. I passed the baton on this one. That's such a hard question. I think that there's always going to be a path that is based on the same concepts, even though the route will be different, right? Because

conventional television is clearly disappearing. But it's not like people are stopping watching anything. It's not like there's less people to be entertained in the evenings, for instance. It's just they're getting it in a different way. So, you know, like live television is not ever going to be relevant the way it was in the past. You know, for me, my biggest break actually wasn't CHFI. My biggest break was CFRB. I got a job at CFRB after, I think it was after first year at Ryerson, where they hired a boat reporter. So there was one person they hired who was down on this boat, they called the RB, and you would do reports every hour from the waterfront. And that to me was my big break, because it gave me the chance to be involved in professional radio. And I, you know, made it clear to them that I wanted to do sports on CFRB more than anything.

Because I like, not worship, that would be the wrong way, but I really like Dave Hodge. And I just so badly wanted to do. And now the world tonight takes a late look at sports. Here's Dave Hodge. Thanks, folks. Good evening, everyone. Our sports report is brought to you tonight by Chrysler Canada Limited for your nearby Dodge and Plymouth dealer. I have no idea how I remember that, but I used to listen at 1120 every night to

Dave Hodge. And it was like, oh God, if I could do that, it would be so cool. And I got to do it, but I was never, it was Bill Stevenson. And I think Doug B forth was there. And Sunil Josh, who really didn't like me at all, was there as well. Did I say that? You said that out loud. He's an FOTM, so I might need the story there, but yeah. Yeah, I'll be happy to give you the story there.

So that was a huge break for me, but it was just, you know, like I just wanted this so badly and I think I wanted it so badly because I had never really felt like there was a place for me anywhere. Right. I had no purpose in, in, you know, professionally in my life. Like I said, you know, everyone I knew was heading towards career as professionals and I didn't want that. And it didn't want me. Because Cable 10 is gone. Right. So this doesn't exist as a, as an outlet.

And I mean, there are, there are 30 year old broadcasters who had the cable 10 experience. So this is, you know, it's pretty recent that this has kind of disappeared. You know, we can say though, Mike, I think, I think here's the, I think Michael's analyzed it exactly right, but here's what we know. We know people want information. We know people are curious and they still crave that kind of connection, but whether that path, the way we took it will be the same path that this generation takes, I highly doubt it. It'll be a different path, but it'll end up in the same place. So Jock Talk would be a podcast, possibly.

Right. Or a YouTube show. Right. You know, as a podcast, that would be a loser. That would be a loser. That would be a loser. I mean, because you had two guys that were enthusiastic and, you know, not without, you know, without. I don't think we had skill, but we had, you know, some some talent enough. Enthusiasm. Yeah. Enthusiasm for sure.

But jock talk. So here's what I think. Like you're talking about the next generation. The same rule applies. Every time you do it, you get better at it. And playing a musical instrument, no one would ever say, oh, you know, I want to be a trumpet player and I'm going to jump in and play trumpet right away. You would say, oh my gosh, I'm going to have to learn how to do it. I'm going to have to practice, practice, practice.

And broadcasting is the same way. But people underestimate it because they think I've talked all my life. So how is this any different? And it is different. And it is all about practice. So whether you're practicing in the anticipation of going to TSN or something like that, as I was, or if you're practicing because you want to do a podcast or you want to do your own YouTube series, it's still the same thing. And today is actually in a lot of ways is easier than it was only because broadcasting the big picture wants people of all different sounds and looks and attitudes. Whereas when I started at TSN, it was all you made reference to. It was all guys with deep voices.

You know, that's what you do. Jim Van Horn in his rock, his 1050 chum rock voice. And in those days, it was all about just the facts. Not, you know, you're not there to entertain. You're not there to make yourself part of the story. You are there to say, three games in the National Hockey League tonight, the Toronto Maple Leafs take on the Philadelphia Flyers. The Leafs lead the Flyers by three points in the standings.

I mean, it was, and I remember thinking, wow, I don't want to do that because what part of me is in that, right? It's like Steve said, you know, you were at CVLT, right? And somebody else was writing your stuff for you. Well, you know, you're using somebody else's words then, you know, to ultimately define you. And I thought almost the same thing about, you know, this sort of just the facts kind of broadcast. Now, Steve, I know you didn't want to answer the question, but Michael summed it up so perfectly. You don't want to throw your two cents in the mix there.

Well, I already put two cents in, so I don't need to throw three cents in there. In some respects, it should be easier today in as much as the technology has allowed so many different paths to get to the eventual destination. Back when Michael and I were trying to come up in the business, I guess we monkeyed around a bit at U of T Radio. We tried to get this little thing going on Rogers TV. And then after that, if you didn't get accepted by a legacy media outlet, you were kind of done. You really couldn't create your own thing. The notion you'd create your own

channel on YouTube, obviously that didn't exist. So today, if you can't catch on with the legacy media, go create your own media. It is easier to get your reps in now because yeah, we're doing it right now. There's a show now and we didn't need TSN or TVO or any of these properties to make this magic right here. The lesson that I try to tell people is that, see, I'm looking into a webcam now, right? And that webcam represents a camera. And me talking to the camera represents what I want to do for a living if I'm a 25-year-old, right?

It doesn't matter how many people are at the other end of the webcam. It's still the same amount of practice. It doesn't matter whether you're doing a show on Willow Downs Cable or you're doing a show on ABC. You're still looking into a camera and you're trying to develop and find out who you are. So if someone says, you know, where am I going to practice? It's like, okay, well, clearly you're not going to medical school because you're not that smart. So, yeah, you better make it in broadcasting. The fact of just talking to camera is ultimately what makes you better.

Okay, so I know, Michael, you have to go very shortly. So I have a couple of questions. When I have guests on, I open it up on Twitter. You have any questions and I have a couple for you. And then, Steve, if you have an extra 10 minutes, uh, like after we say goodbye to, to Michael, if you could hang on for 10 more minutes, I want to ask you about, uh, some TVO stuff, uh, before we do. Okay. Awesome. Awesome. So this question, this is a, I get questions from this gentleman. His name is Matt, Matt Layden. And he asks me questions when I have sports media

personalities, I get questions like this all the time. And I promised him I'd ask this question. So this is for Matt and remember, don't shoot me. I'm just the piano player here. But hey, Toronto Mike. Oh, yeah. He says, did you get my question last night? Because he sent it a few times. So I thought it was very important to him.

He wants to know, you, Michael Landsberg, if you would consider jumping to Sportsnet for a Sunday morning sports talk round table show. Go ahead. No. You know, I've worked at TSN basically all my adult life. That was a Mark Messier, actually. He went, no, no, he went like this.

Yes. When they asked him if he cross-checked Mike Medano purposely in the mouth, it was an awesome answer. I've been waiting to do that, and I screwed it up because I said it was yes and not a no. But, you know, I've worked at TSN all my life. TSN has been hugely loyal to me. I mean, like, when Off the Record was canceled,

you know, they could have said, hey, Michael, you had a great run here, you know, see ya, right? And no one would have said, oh, my gosh, I can't believe they dropped him after 18 years. Like, you know, they never gave him a shot. So, I mean, they came to me and they felt like, um, that I was worthy of their loyalty. And, um, you know, so they said, Oh, do you want to do morning? Said TSN 10 50. And I thought not really, but it was, you know, like a job. And it wasn't like i was flipping enough to think yeah you know what i'll go someplace else and do what i'm doing before so um they've been really loyal to me i

like the people that employ me and uh i like the fact that i've worked at the same company and in the same family and you know sunday morning talk show right yeah he he's uh He likes to play program director and he sort of has these fantasy programs he builds out. And it sounds like he's got you pegged as the host of a Sunday morning sports talk roundtable show on Sportsnet. Really, what he should do is...

He should go watch The Reporters by Dave Hodge. It's been done. That's what I'm about to say. Dave would happily... I know this because Dave's a great FOTM. He would happily get the reporters together again. So if Sportsnet has any interest in Dave Hodges, the reporters,

that can happen. And do it before I take it and make it a podcast here at TMDS. So Sportsnet should jump on that right now. But Michael, one more question. This is regarding your morning show. It's from remember sports that's his handle on twitter can you ask mike and you might have replied to this on twitter already

but i'm gonna make you do it again can you ask mike if the breakfast club segment is permanently i did respond on twitter right i'm nice guy you know likes the breakfast club i mean you can't do the breakfast club uh because you know i broadcast from exactly where i'm sitting right now uh in in and so you that's my dog by the way and i think steve when i was on with you my dog may have yes piped in as well and i think actually with uh with toronto mike as well your son your son brought the dog over i think yeah wrigley uh hi buddy so i So I think that it's just impossible to do it because I have a broadcast line put into my house like Carlo has one into his house, right?

So if you have two guests on, you know, Steve Paikin and Toronto Mike are on The Breakfast Club, which is not impossible to happen, you would be on the phone. And there's only so far you can live off being on the phone. So if we ever get back to our studio, and God knows when that's going to be, we should probably go to TVO Steve Paikin for that.

Steve, any idea when we'll be returning to studio work? This just in, Michael. I know the agenda is going back into the studio next week, but I have not heard about TSN 1050. Really? You're going back into the studio next week, but I have not heard about TSN 1050. Really? You're going back into the studio next week? Yes. Yeah. I can't take the commute from the bedroom to the attic anymore.

You know, I love the commute from my bedroom at 5 a.m. to my kitchen table. It's awesome. Like just not having to get in a car. Michael, thanks so much for doing this and reuniting with Steve Pagan here on Toronto Mic. I thoroughly enjoyed this. Final question before you disappear to do your, again, remind us, what are you going to be doing after this? Forget it. I'm not here to do the promo.

The promo, but it is an important show. Isolation Nation. I'm not denying that, but I'm not here to do the the promo but it is an important show isolation nation I'm not I'm not denying that but I I'm just I'm not never been really good at promoting myself like I would never go on and say oh you know it's a really important show that people need to watch because mental illness is so widespread and people with a mental illness very seldom feel like they're understood and one of the things that I can do is I can make people feel like they are understood, like, even though they may be alone physically, knowing that someone understands you is very valuable. So I'd never go on a tangent about that. Now, I feel like my question is going to sound awful now. I'm wondering what was the better experience appearing on Toronto Mic'd or

TVO's The Agenda with Steve Pagan? You know, well, I would say this episode of Toronto Mic'd or TVO's The Agenda with Steve Paikin? You know, well, I would say this episode of Toronto Mic'd because I got the best of The Agenda with Steve Paikin and I, you know, and I'm on with you. And I mean, this is, this was really, really, really fun for me and nostalgic for me. And I love Steve. Steve, I was in Steve's wedding party. We don't talk about the first wedding. And he was in mine. And I'm still married. Say hi, Care. I'm still married to the same woman. So I guess maybe he did a better job at mine than I did at his. Well, good for you. I just celebrated my anniversary on, uh,

yesterday, yesterday. Steve, you got married at, was it Sher Shemayim? Yes. First time. Yeah. And that's a, that's a heavyweight synagogue, right? I mean, that's, uh, I wouldn't know. I'm from Hamilton. I didn't know if it was heavyweight or lightweight or what. No, but it is, uh, it is, I mean, that's, that's the Northodox synagogue, right? And you kind of strayed from the flock after that, but- I think Mike Boone got married there the first time as well. Old City Hall, my first time, Old City Hall. There you go. Well, like I said, this is great fun. And if you said, you know, we should do this again with Pagan and Lansberg, I'd be up for that in a heartbeat because, you know, there's, you know, Steve and I have always

had this affinity for each other. And now, now you're in that group too, Mike. So I'm, I'm just, you do a great job on this show. I thoroughly enjoyed it. And if you'd consider some hair product, I think it might think it might benefit most people. You sound like my wife. She wants me to style it. I told her I don't think I'm a style hair kind of guy. Just put a little product in it. That's what she said.

And lose some of the vertical, man. Colin Kaepernick. That's the best Afro ever, by the way. Colin Kaepernick, when you look at, I mean, obviously we're looking at video of him from back in the day. He had this unbelievable Afro. Like we were talking about it last night.

Like, how do you get your hair to go like that? I'm not off topic at all. So thanks for having me. Burger, great to see you again. This was great fun. Yeah, and good for you for wearing the Boston, great to see you again. This was great fun. Yeah, and good for you for wearing the Boston, the Red Sox shirt.

That's bringing back memories as well. I love the Red Sox more than my own children. What can I say? On that note, Michael, we are going to do this again. Thanks so much. Anytime.

Get yourself to Isolation Nation and I'll wrap up with Pagan. Yeah, thanks. I'm a little suspicious about how this is going to go. Oh, we're going to talk about you. Wait for it. He's gone. We are so going to talk about you. Shut up. And you were play by

play and I was color because you were good at it and I was not. That's all I got to say. Not how I recall it, but okay. See you, pal. Peace and love, Burger, if I may call you that. Remember, he's the guy who said, Mike's fixed cars. That's why he's a Michael and I'm a Mike. Yeah, I've been accused of being elitist for that, right? A little bit. No, but my point is that Mike sounds like a guy who you'd be chummy with.

Sure. Heaven forbid. Yeah, exactly. All right. Peace and love to you. We need to talk about you, so I got to boot you out of here. That was nice. Thank you for doing that, Mike Boone.

That was great. I was going to say, now we do the post-game show here. Yeah, how did it go? Did you enjoy that? I need to know before I even wind us down here. I totally enjoyed that. And one thing we did not say, actually, that, well, I remember the last time, well, put it this way. There's this one. Then the last time Michael Landsberg and I got together was to do an episode of The Agenda. And the previous time that I had seen him in person was actually at his mother's funeral. So it was a bittersweet occasion. And I'm happy to have had two incidents since then where we could get together and laugh a lot. So that was great.

I thank you for that. No, and thank you for doing this. I like these ideas. And I think before I pressed record, I was telling you I have Bob Elliott's new book, If These Walls Could Talk. Bob Elliott. Stories from the Toronto Blue Jays. And the reason I brought that up earlier with you was actually not to brag about him writing to Mike, the man with the best questions, Bob Elliott. The best questions or just with the pretty good questions? The best, I believe. Oh, he wrote the best. He wrote the best there.

And I brought that up because at some point I had Dave Perkins on the show and I had Bob Elliott. And then I had this, I was on a bike ride and I'm like, oh my God, I could have them on together. Like this was like this epiphany on my bike ride. I could have Bob Elliott and Dave Perkins on together. And that was back when I made them come here physically into my basement here. But with this COVID thing, I'm like,

what if I got Landsberg and Pakin on together? It was like this whole like, oh, and then it happened. So thanks for agreeing to do this, man. I enjoyed this very much. Well, that baseball show you did with those two guys was, if not my favorite episode, it was certainly one of my favorite episodes. I totally loved it. And you have promised me, Toronto Mike, that if you get those two guys back together again, that you'll let me be a fly on the wall because I just love here. That's one thing I truly miss at this time of year is just talking baseball with anybody. And it's a real gap right now. You're not watching the Korean baseball. I'm not watching any of that, but I do watch.

I spend a lot of time up here in the attic and I prep for the next day's agenda in the evenings. And I just, on my PVR over here, I just tape old games all the time and I put them on. It's a habit I'm in. I always have a baseball game on when I'm doing my prep for the next day. And I'm watching a lot of the old games right now. And that's

quite nostalgic and fun. Very cool. Now, um, TV Ontario is the agenda with Steve Pagan. That's the full complete title. Uh, I asked you this earlier, but I'm going to ask you again. I would think at this point you might be suffering from some kind of COVID-19 fatigue, like the subject matter. Uh, you know, we're three months deep into this, well, three months hardcore into this thing, but you disagree with me. Tell us. Well, it's not that I disagree. First of all, I'm incredibly curious about how the world works anyway. So the fact that we're in an unprecedented pandemic in terms of our life, you know, if you're not a hundred years old, you've never experienced this before. So that's certainly enough fuel in my tank to keep me going. But we are in the midst

of a triple crisis. We have the crisis of COVID-19. We have the economy having been put into a coma in order to deal with that, which means that people are dealing with economic dislocation and concerns about whether or not their job is going to be back after this thing is all over with. We know that probably half the restaurants are going to disappear, and we are very much a service-oriented culture right now. So while the emergency response benefit and the wage backstop and all of those things are there to cushion the blow. The fact is, I'm sure there's a great deal of anxiety about what the economy is going to look like going forward. And then layered on top of all of that, we have this first time in five decades opportunity to consider the state of race relations in North America and around the world. opportunity to consider the state of race relations in North America and around the world.

And you have these three almost unprecedented, certainly if you're under the age of 50 or 60, you have no recollection of the 60s. You have this unprecedented opportunity to kind of fix things. So that's plenty, Mike, that's plenty to keep the agenda very topical and very interesting until our season ends at the end of June. No, you're so right, actually. Now I, you're right. This is, there's lots happening and it's constant and congrats on how you provide the forum, if you will, for the discussions. Like your show to me is one of the most important shows we have on the air and I think you do great work there.

But I've told you that many times. Kind of you to say. Thank you. So before we say goodbye, because I see on my agenda, my agenda, not the agenda with Steve Paikin, on my agenda,

I need to go to the No Frills and pick up the groceries. Monica, my wife, literally sends me meeting requests where it says basically basically i have it there's an hour time period where you pick it up this is like pc express or something and i i i put the trailer on the back of the bike and i biked to the no frills and i put on my blue jays mask boo red socks boo and then i pick up the groceries and that's up next but I know you unlike Michael I didn't want to embarrass Michael I know Michael I don't I get the feeling he's not listening to a

lot of Toronto Mike he's got lots going on I don't think he's doing a lot of podcast listening but I know you do listen and I'm putting you on the spot here and we're live but you know that's what I do are there any do any episodes you of Toronto Mike that you uh particularly enjoyed or uh and putting you on the big spot here but not not on the spot at all you know I listen and I I told you when you did the interview with Aaron Davis I thought that was a profoundly emotional and deep um episode of your show uh that was an extraordinary conversation I I, I, I do recall, I think you broke down and cried in the middle of that show. It was just so, um, it was so deeply moving. I, I really did love that show. Um, the one you did with Michael Landsberg, I obviously listened to,

and then heckled him on Twitter because he couldn't remember the name of the show that we had done together. Right. And, uh, I heard your show with Brother Jake the other day, and Brother Jake was a guy that I would have listened to a little bit back in the day. And I guess I heard that one. And who was the one? Oh, gosh. I just turned 60, and I'm having trouble with names now. I'll be specific with one episode I'm curious about.

And if you haven't heard this yet, then, of course, I understood. A plethora of content coming your way but uh did you listen to the episode with donovan bennett from sportsnet and garvia bailey uh no haven't heard that one yet i heard the one with uh lauren honickman that one i listened to not too long ago because lauren and i were both street reporters he had city tv right yours truly at cbc for a good chunk time. So I used to bump into him a lot. Who's the fella who you just, oh my God, Benavides. Okay. Carlos. Yes. Carlos Benavides, whom I really didn't know at all. I never met him. And oftentimes what I do, Mike, is I listen to the first few minutes and I see whether or not, you know, if it's somebody I

know and I know I want to hear it, I listen all the way through. If it's somebody I don't know, but I'm thinking, oh, let me give this a chance. And I listened to that one right through to the end. I found his, I found his life choices to be of interest. So I enjoyed that episode too. And the reason I asked about the Donovan Bennett, Garvia Bailey episode is because when I was doing that one, it was a little different. You'll, when you'll hear the tones different, it's, it's very different from almost any episode I did, but I did have that at the beginning when I said, that one, it was a little different. When you'll hear, the tone's different. It's very different from almost any episode I did.

But I did have that at the beginning when I said, okay, what would Steve Paikin do? Like, I had this whole, like, be like Steve, and this is going to go well. Well, you don't want to do that. No, you definitely, no. In fact, I believe the original expression relates to Michael Jordan, and the expression is be like Mike. And that is absolutely appropriate for you. Oh, you know, I just remembered another episode that I listened to and really enjoyed. Go ahead. Yeah. Which was the one you did with Ralph Ben-Murgy for both of your shows for Not That Kind of Rabbi and for Toronto Mike. And I found I really enjoyed that conversation

because it sounded to me, and I've known Ralph for 35 years and I hope this doesn't get me in trouble with him, but it sounded to me like he was almost trying to kind of proselytize you into saying, come on, Mike, I know you're a sworn, you know, in and out atheist, but I know you've got some spirituality happening there somewhere. And he was trying to bring it out of you and you just weren't playing along. Well, thanks for, uh, I enjoyed the conversation and, uh, yeah., I think you're right. I think he might be a little disappointed. There wasn't that epiphany in the middle of that episode, like this moment.

But it was an interesting conversation and people should check out. It's an episode of Not That Kind of Rabbi with Ralph Ben-Murgy, but it's also an episode of Toronto Mic'd because it's a twofer. So thanks for pointing that out. And again, Steve, thanks so much for doing this.

Thank you, Michael Landsberg, for joining us. Glad I could reunite you. I think it's funny that that song was played at Michael's wedding. So it seems very appropriate. And that brings us to our 668th show. You can follow me on Twitter. I'm at Toronto Mike. Steve, you're at S Paikin.

That is correct. S P A I K I N. People should follow Steve on Twitter. Michael Landsberg is actually at Hey Landsberg. Don't get fooled by this Landsberg TSN account that fooled me once. It's Hey, H E Y, Hey Landsberg. You can follow Michael on Twitter. Our friends at Great Lakes Brewery are at Great Lakes Beer. Palma Pasta is at Palma Pasta. Sticker U is at Sticker U. The Keitner Group are at The Keitner Group. CDN Technologies are at CDN Technologies.

And Garbage Day are at GarbageDay.com slash Toronto Mike. See you all next week. brings you the most reliable virtual phone service to run your business and protect your home number from unwanted calls. Visit RomePhone.ca to get started.