Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Michael Phillip Wojewoda: Toronto Mike'd #1346

Episode Date: October 19, 2023

In this 1346th episode of Toronto Mike'd, Mike chats with producer and musician Michael Phillip Wojewoda about the amazing music he's produced for bands such as Barenaked Ladies, Change of Heart, Doughboys, Spirit of the West, Rheostatics, as well as Ashley MacIsaac, Jane Siberia and Good Downie. Toronto Mike'd is proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, Pumpkins After Dark, Ridley Funeral Home, Electronic Products Recycling Association, Raymond James Canada and Moneris. If you would like to support the show, we do have partner opportunities available. Please email Toronto Mike at [e-mail]

Welcome to episode 1,346 of Toronto Mic'd. Proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, a fiercely independent craft brewery who believes in supporting communities, good times, and brewing amazing beer. Order online for free local home delivery in the GTA. Palma Pasta. Enjoy the taste of fresh, homemade Italian pasta and entrees from Palma Pasta in Mississauga and Oakville. Pumpkins After Dark.

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Pillars of the community Since 1921 Today Making his Toronto Mike debut Is Michael Philip Voyevoda How did I do? You pronounced it beautifully.

Thank you. Do you get lots of people butchering it? I would think they see a W. They think that's going to sound like a W. They see a J. They think that's going to sound like a J. But I learned neither is true. Yeah, absolutely.

You learned correctly. But I wonder if people have ever evoked the Elizabethan English and called your show Toronto Mike-ed because you could interpret that any number of ways too. And the Philip is optional, right? I had a John Michael over and like, you got to use both names, but you're okay with just Michael. Oh my God.

I have this really long convoluted story about my name. Let's hear it. Well, uh. I'll make time for that. So I was christened Hubert Voivoda. Hubert also being my father's name. And then I was actually, I'm sorry, that's not quite true. I was christened Hubert Michael John Voivoda.

And when my parents started to fall apart and the divorce happened, and I sort of swung slightly into the narrative of my mother. There was a period where I was a little bit pissed at my dad, and I thought, you know what, I don't really want to have this name. So I informed my family that I was going to grab one of my inside names, Michael. So it took a little while to condition them, then I became Michael. But to go a little further back, my father had used his middle name to anglify himself in the 60s to sell insurance.

So he was Hubert Phillip. And it was on our mailbox out in the rural, like rural Woodbridge before it was all built up. And I was known as Hubert Phillip. And then Michael Phillip. And then all my friends in the suburbs and even when I was in my early punk bands and things like that, everyone called me Mike Phillip. the suburbs and even when I was in my early punk bands and things like that, everyone called me Mike Phillip. And I knew about this Voya Vota thing kind of in some vague way that a kid knows that something's going on in their family, but they haven't quite sorted it out.

Right. And then I finally, so I changed it from Hubert to Michael. So then Mike Phillip or Michael Phillip, then my first opportunity to get a credit on a record that I produced in the early 80s. They said, we're going to give you a credit. And I said, you know what, let's use Michael Philip Voivoda because it has three names and all the great producers in the 80s had three names and it took up a lot of room.

And I decided to just start adopting my actual last name sort of as that. And then fast forward to any time i take a a flight at the airport and they say paging passenger john smith and passenger roger deakins and passenger michael and there's a pause i just start getting up because i know they're gonna go They're going to go, wojewoda. And then 9-11 happens, and I need to update my passport. So suddenly the passport office goes, well, you never officially changed your name to Michael. But everything, all my other ID, everything, my health card and whatnot. So the woman who was at the passport office said, well well maybe we can fudge it a little bit so she was really nice

she was saying let me try putting in H.J. Michael and the system accepted it so now I'm H.J. Michael Voivoda but when I get an airline ticket the H and the J are not parsed or separated so it's actually now H.J. M-I-C-H-A-E-L-W-O-J so now I hear paging

passenger and i just quietly get up and go yeah you know it's me can i buy a vowel okay that's wild now you mentioned uh well you didn't you actually mentioned your parents divorce okay welcome to the club but in speaking of weddings if that is even speaking of weddings, Peter Myers did write in when he heard you were coming on, and he said, yay, Michael went to my wedding. Yes, I did. And as I recall, I mean, it was a lovely wedding. I have just a memory of being very young and very confused and consuming far too much and by far

too much alcohol at that and I have just a memory of being like a great supportive friend and then just being a complete disaster by the evening so but anyway I'm very fond of Peter do you know him through Paul like how do you did you just are you just knew Peter through Peter? No. Like, I know you know Paul. Paul and I were in, it was Paul who I met. Okay. And he started, well, he was in a band, I was a roadie, actually, for his mall band. Like, it was Fairview Mall in the suburbs, and I was 13, and I was heaving amps to this church for these rehearsals on Sundays in a band that he played in called Nighthawk.

Okay. And their drummer was notoriously always late. And so I would kind of sit on the kit and he and I would just jam and we realized we were sort of like-minded because the band he was in was sort of like a heavy rock band. And we were like playing, I don't know,

like bebop deluxe tracks and XTC and stuff. We clearly had a commonality, even though he was a couple of years older than me. Anyway, when that all fell through, he and I became very dear, dear friends um started my first band together with him which was a new wave outfit uh with a terrible name but a great band which was called space invaders oh right and then we went on to form a second band called a disband which formed exclusively for the purpose of breaking up we only lasted nine months and and so anyway, I knew Mike as well,

because Mike and my brother were best friends. And so we were all just basically pals. Mike Myers, of course. The Mike Myers. The Mike Myers, the hardworking comic writer. Yeah, not the murderer in Halloween. You know, I've never seen those films, but I realize. Now, does that Mike Myers wear like a leather mask? He does wear a mask. I don't know if it's leather, but it does wear a

mask, but that's, I guess that would be Michael Myers. I don't know if he goes by Mike Myers, but our Mike Myers here, it's yeah, a big deal, but it's, so you're connected to all the Myers. And I guess Mike was at this wedding, I suppose, of his brother. Yes, of course they would have all been there, but, but again, that's a funny memory. And also I have to remark at how wonderfully you've led me to places that I never considered thinking or pursuing and whatever.

But yes, Peter, that's very lovely of him to say that. He was, I was at his wedding. Mike has been a friend through just the Myers family in general. I'm a big fan of the whole, all three brothers and all that good stuff. Well, before I take you to many other places,

and I have some music as well, and I'm very excited about this because when I look at your discography, it is like a mile long and I spot all these like songs I still adore. Like I adored them at the time. I adore them now. Like we're going to hear some great songs

and have some great, hopefully some great stories. But now I need to ask, how familiar are you with Toronto Mike? Have you heard episodes of Toronto Mike? I have heard. Oh, right. I am. I've been remiss in my duties. You asked me before we press play.

Well, I should just tell them this. Before we started recording, you were going to start, I think you were going to praise the podcast. You love it. And I'm like, no, hold that. I don't want to talk to you. You be quiet. Let's start like, no, hold that. I don't want to talk to you. You be quiet. Let's start recording and capture all this gold.

Well, and then I asked him how many people chatter away before he actually gets the laptop running. And I said, just you. And so I was just saying, yeah, no, I'm a fan of this podcast. And I've checked. I mean, there's a lot of episodes I cannot claim to have heard 1,100. And what was it? 1,346.

Yeah. But the nature of it. But two things occurred to me when I decided to come on here. One of them is I'm consciously trying to make my voice slow and mellifluous, which is not necessarily. You don't have to do that. No, I know. But I know that your tempo and temperament is very, very bullion and so, and also because I've been I teach amongst other things, music production and mixing at the Harris

Institute, I sometimes record my lectures and whatnot and I realize as I listen back that I am like a carny barker or I'm trying to like auction off cattle. Like I speak so quickly and I thought, you know, I don't want to be that guy. I like that guy.

Well, no, you're that guy. You're genuinely that guy. I'm still Googling the word bullion. I can't tell if it's a compliment or not. E-bullion. E-bullion.

Okay. Can you define it for me? I need to know if that was an insult or not. E-bullion would be just so brimming with joy and so overwhelmingly, um, passionate, positive, all that sort of stuff. Yeah. It's a great word.

Okay. And, um, so anyway, so, uh, yeah. And I thought I would try and to balance things out.

Yeah. Not be, and get back to my, um, you know, airline captain. Okay. So a lot of ground to cover.

We only have about 90 minutes and, uh, you did already address one of Blair Packham's questions. Oh, wait, I didn't talk about how much I love Toronto Mykid. Okay, now you can take your time. The Toronto Mykid. I love, in the Elizabethan, it is, yeah, I really, no, I enjoy your work. I really do.

I think you're great. Oh, thank you. I'm sure you've heard Blair Packham on this program. I have, yeah. So he wanted to know if you were a member of Space Invaders, but we've already covered that one. This is the Paul Myers, this is the Myers-Michael combo. Now you talk about it in the present tense. So no, I am not a member of Space Invaders, but I was in the past a card-carrying member of Space Invaders.

And we actually made a four-song EP, which was produced by John Oswald, who's actually now better known as a sort of important Canadian experimental composer. And so I don't know. I just kind of think that's a really sweet little time. I think we got together in 79, and we put the record out in 1980. So it's a long, long time ago. I was thinking when you were coming over, how do I structure this?

There's so much ground I want to cover. And I thought, oh, no know, do it chronologically. And then I said, no, like I might kind of jump around a little bit. Like, so questions might lead us places and then I'm going to play songs that will lead us other places. Clearly, we've established this already. So, go ahead. Elephants and Stars. He's an FOTM Manfred.

Hello, if you're listening. He goes, doughboys and change of heart. That's the stuff of legends. Plus, he did that Veal record which I love so where do I go here let's start maybe I'll maybe say something about all three bands

I actually want to play a song I still love from Change of Heart that I believe you are the producer on but where do we go what's Veal I'm not even sure

Luke Doucette who is one half of white horse and also sarah mclaughlin's principal guitarists band trio in vancouver in the 90s or the mid mid 90s late 90s and um yeah so i ended up producing an album with with that with luke and the other characters who i should remember the name of, but I'm blanking because I'm blanking now, who are all really interesting. Here's what's funny, Mike,

is that there are stories to tell that I dare not tell. That's what the Great Lakes beer is here for. I have to think of second tier stories to tell. But I'll tell them. What the hell? Yeah, go ahead.

Well, what do you want to know? About Veal? Well, here, let me steer it towards, okay, Veal. Good, we shouted out Veal. Doughboys. Okay. Yeah, let's talk about Doughboys. I know that one of my favorite bands is Rusty.

They come out of Doughboys, like Scotty Mac. Yeah. The other Scotty Mac. I know people think I'm talking about Scott MacArthur, but Scott McAuliffe. So what can you tell us about your work with Doughboys before I play the Change of Heart and we can talk about Ian Blurden?

Well, this would be the sort of the early 90s wave of music that was kind of hitched to the grunge movement. So these would be bands that would be a lot of dreadlocks um sort of stinky socks um true real lifers you know van life and and uh like soul asylum what am i thinking here oh i don't know i can't speak i'm just saying that he looks like he needs a shower like the kind the kind of thing that like it would it it was just that there's several variations and, and I don't want specifically say this has to do with any particular band, but they'd be the kind of bands that are amazing at what they do.

And they may not even know the name of the cord that they're squeezing on the guitar. They're just pure, pure, you know? And, um, um,

so dough boys was a, was a great experience for me because we i recorded them in montreal and montreal bass band and um oh and then we ended up going up to moran heights for an ep as well and uh i don't know like the only stories i can remember john casner's band yeah john casner's band so the thing i remember about that doughboy story would be this i'm mixing it on um in toronto on a console this is pre-automation story would be this. I'm mixing it in Toronto on a console. This is pre-automation. This would be back when we used to have to do hand mixes,

which is if there needed to be any muting or unmuting or level changes over the cross of the song, I would have as many fingers as I could, but when I ran out of them, I would assign motions to different band members until eventually everyone is standing around the console and we're all having our choreographed mix things and we'd run it like a, and I remember John kept on going, the guitars aren't loud enough.

Guitars aren't loud enough. I thought in my, in my behind my eyes, I'm going, this is starting to approach narcissism. And then years later I listened to the, I have it on cassette. Ironically, I have a cassette of this album and I think also I was responsible for naming that record by chance. But I remember listening to it years later and going, he was absolutely right. A lot of the records I did back then,

I was really influenced by Hugh Padgerman. I put the drums forward and he kind of got me to put the guitars forward. And now I feel like the mix of that record is more relevant to my aesthetics today than, so it was good. I mean, I remember thinking he wanted to sound like he was standing in front of his his marshall lamp um but did we name this album yet uh so it's called happy accident and i much like i did with the word ebullient with you i

used a word in conversation with him and i used the word serendipity and he goes what's that oh because that one i know yeah and and i said well it's likeendipity and he goes, what's that? Because that one I know. Yeah, and I said, well, it's like a happy accident. And he went, well, that's the name of the album. Wow, and he's of course married to Jessica Paré. I never know how to say that word. Par, Paré. The woman from Mad Men who was married to Don Draper.

Mm-hmm. All right. First of our many songs I'm going to play today because I still break this one out. I absolutely adore this song, but this is going to lead us to a little change of heart chat. Let's listen for a little bit. If I could find I would know

all the reasons why I'd reach out to kiss But a ridge of breath's no jealous thought You think I'd drop masks over you That you could be anyone of a crowd Truth is I put a crown much more than What's over your head Truth is I wanna be the windage all day from your hair

Here you go, standing alone Do you find there's no one home? And if I could tell you And if I could find I would know all the reasons why When you listen to this now in the headphones, how do you feel? You produced this one, right? Well, this is kind of a special record because... Oh, I've turned my headphones down too much.

This is an exotic record because one of its claims to fame is it's live to two-track. There was no multi-track phase of this. It was the entire band, every player, every backing vocalist, every guest, performing as one pass in a studio with headphones. And so there would be multiple takes, and then we would edit together the takes on really early primitive digital editors because the idea of being able to edit was really exotic too on digital but uh i always remember it was very exciting because i think it spread out over three or four days and um it had a quality that had been sort of missing at that time anyway which was you know the methodical process of recording with overdubs.

I was like, fuck that, let's just, well, I mean, it was Ian's idea to go out on the floor and do it. And maybe I think we also listened to a Joe Jackson album that had just done that, and we thought it really sounded great. So there's another connection that that record has that's less to do with the Doughboys and more to do with Barenaked Lady's Gordon debut

and the Real Statics whale music. Because all three of those records were done in the same kind of compressed two and a half month period. And without even having any intention, all three bands had, on their own, created these themes that were directly linking back to Brian Wilson. I don't know if they'd all read the same biography

at the time, but it hit the zeitgeist. Right, because that album's called Smile. It's called Smile. And of course, Brian Wilson's a tune by B&L. And Whale Music is a book that's kind of based on the idea

of the social anxieties of Brian Wilson's character. You're blowing my mind right now. I never even tied these three together. Yeah, and I didn't notice. I mean, at the time, it was just, to me, it was a curiosity because it's not like I led anyone that way. It was just, it was in the air. And those three records, like, did really well. And they're all three great.

Yeah. And what production on those three albums? What's that? Great production on those three albums. What's that? Great production. Oh, well, thank you. I appreciate that. Thanks, my kid. Okay, so Ian Blurden, who I've had the pleasure of having him over,

I think he's a creative genius. I think he's a super talented guy. And I love listening to Change of Heart. I know there's new Change of Heart coming. Oh, yeah, I was involved in some of that. Amazing. Yeah, and don't be shy. I know, actually I was involved in some of that. Amazing. Yeah, and don't be shy.

I know, not that you're shy, but make sure you, you know, sprinkle any fun facts or mind blows or any names you want to drop. Sprinkle it.

I think what Ian did was he wanted to make sure that everyone who was involved in the original Smile record would somehow, as long as they're still around and living,

contribute in some way. So I think what I did was I simply recorded Ann Bourne's cello overdubs for this new record with Ron and Ian in my studio. And so that way the DNA of everyone who was there, even though they didn't do it live off the floor like they did the original one.

And, oh, you got some B&L going. And, yeah, so. so well you did mention gordon so a little of this and then i got questions sure and i know blair packham's in the chorus of this song as he's told me so uh it'll lead to some blair questions as. If I had a million dollars If I had a million dollars Well, I'd buy you a house I would buy you a house And if I had a million dollars

If I had a million dollars Buy you furniture for your house Maybe an ice Chesterfield or an ottoman Bye. If I had a million dollars, I'd buy your love. If I had a million dollars, I'd sell the tree fort in our yard. If I had a million dollars, you could help, it wouldn't be that hard. If I had a million dollars Maybe we could put my little tiny fridge in there somewhere Yeah, we could just go up there and hang out

Like open the fridge and stuff All right, thus begins the Barenaked Ladies segment of our episode with Michael Philip Voyavoda. I almost got it right. Okay, I'm working on that. But what can you share with us about producing Gordon for Barenaked Ladies? Wow. Well, specifically, if I think about this, I mean, whatever.

It's so funny. I keep thinking of like little stories. What anecdotes could I tell? This particular tune, for instance, they talked about getting all their friends, like Blair was in the chorus at the end. So Ed had said they had done a show where everyone in the audience started humming sort of that sort of top line, but down low, you know, the... And he said, let's get a bunch of people that we all love to show up and record that.

So I had to... This would be now no longer in Morne Heights, but back in Toronto. And maybe it's not yet here, it's a little bit later in the song. So the first time the chorus starts coming in, I had to deal with a lot of details, a lot of details. It was just me out there. And the chorus kind of sings the first harmonically incorrectly. Harmonically incorrectly by any measure. But by the next repetition, they sort of sorted themselves out. And this is about 50 people in the room, parents and whatnot. And then we had to add an overdub to it. And I remember Bobby Wiseman was in the group,

and when it was over, I said, that's great, everyone, it's a rap. And he was like, the first thing was totally wrong. And I was like, I know. I'll just deal with it in the mix. And so I kind of de-emphasized the bad note when I was mixing it,

which is like 50 people all singing the wrong note. I remember that. So is that coming here? We're in the last minute of play in this period. It's going to be the slow part where I guess after the second chorus and there's humming.

Okay, I'm going to just let it play out. Let me listen. Yeah, yeah, it's already passed. The bad notes have passed. It's the first entrance. Okay. Interesting. So Bobby Wiseman,

who I also had the pleasure of speaking with recently, a very interesting cat. Do you remember any other famous people in that chorus? I know we talked about Blair Packham, but do you remember anyone off the top of your head who was in that chorus of 50? No. Not at all.

Blair, Bobby, and a bunch of other people. Well, I mean, you mentioned Blair. I guess Blair was there. He bunch of other people well I mean you mentioned Blair I guess Blair was there he says he was there I believe he was there he's lying Blair no we padded it with all our friends

and all the parents and stuff but again I was the engineer in producing and remember this was on analog tape it was a lot of work

and it was a sea of people and it was kind of like a big festival of stuff I think there weren't enough headphones so I had to kind of feed the music into little speakers and I remember the weren't enough headphones, so I had to kind of feed the music into little speakers.

And I remember the tech of it. It's like I remember when Neil Peart came in to do some overdubs on whale music, it was like mostly I remember just making sure that the tech was working. And also that the talkback was on when friends came into the control room because the SSL consoles were designed in such a way that when you stopped the tape deck, the talkback mic would just friends came into the control room because the ssl consoles were designed in

such a way that when you stop the tape deck the talkback mic would just come on and stay on this is the way i preferred it so people weren't out on the floor just sitting in silence and the friends came in and were just doing all the oh man i can't believe it and and neil's sitting there quietly and very very graciously just waiting for his chance to do the overdub. And, well, people were... Well, I think Blair... And I'm sure he's used to that, like a mist. That's what happens with that level of celebrity, you know,

just a mist of whispers of people going, oh, my God, it's blah, blah, blah. You know, I remember walking around with Mike Myers, it would be the same. You just hear like... Right. As he walks by. Right.

So this is Gordon, of course, the first major label released by Bare Naked Ladies. The money they spent on Gordon came from, they won the CFNY, I think it was the CFNY New Music Search or something. did not need to borrow any money to do it so they could license it on their terms with whatever label they signed to but the other one was you all remember the yellow tape which was a very very popular precursor to that first record and some of the songs that are on the record are on the tape and i remember working specifically on great detail on a tune at the studio with the band and then i get in my car at the end of the session and i turn the car on and see if and why we're playing and the very same tune is on the radio and i don get in my car at the end of the session and I turn the car on and CFNY will be playing

and the very same tune is on the radio and I don't know necessarily whether we're doing a better one or not but I remember thinking how Can I guess what song this is?

Blame It On Me. You're right. Yeah, why do you Process of Elimination. Have I told this story before? No, no, no, no. I haven't heard you tell it. But I was thinking

it's not going to be the song we just heard and it's not going to be Yoko Ono. So I figured it's going to be another song and I was listening to CFNY at this time and they did play a lot of the yellow tape but i remember exactly which songs on the yellow tape it was it was and i remember our version was had a kind of a more of a authentic um samba it was sort of down tempo and very very

moody and kind of try to evoke a feeling of a little bit more world weary and all that stuff. And the one on the tape was just jacked teenagers. And I thought ours was better, but I wasn't sure if, but what was interesting though, to be honest about the Gordon record is hearing that music on the radio as I'm working on it, I realized that it was my job to just not break it. Don't fuck up because the momentum was already there. I'm no, I didn't break it. I definitely contributed to the flavor and shape and the success, but I knew fully well that I was just lucky enough to be

in a position to do that because they were going to do fine no matter who is, if someone else equally as capable. So I remember those thoughts at the time. And I suppose over time, maybe I'm being a little bit too hard on myself. But what was the other thing I really liked about B&L? When I went to Chicago to record their live album. This is Rock Spectac. Rock Spectac. Rock Spectac.

And, well, two memories. One is I remember I got there a day early and I got to see a Chicago premiere of a Steve Reich piece where half the room emptied at the half and I went to the washroom and a bunch of people were like griping about how underwhelmed they were by it all.

And then later in a scrum after the show in the lobby, Reich was there and I'm a huge fan of his. And I got a chance to sort of say, well, listen, if you're alienating middle America, you know, you're still on the right path. And I got a laugh out of him. So that's good.

But I remember that they rolled up in their two tour buses, one for the crew, one for them in Chicago. And even when they were doing their, their, um, stadium tours, when they finally had the billboard number one which i didn't produce but uh um they would still only book two hotel rooms in every city just so they could shower the crew could shower and the bank could shower and they always slept and lived on the buses and they never spent money on hotels and they're like they're now doing stadiums and but that sort of like just that kind of business smarts it was always like oh man that's just so smart yeah interesting interesting so since you brought up rock spectacular uh i got a question about the song

old apartment okay okay so there's a studio version and maybe you should i can't remember the name of what album but i don't't think you produced a studio album that. I did. You did. Okay. So there's the studio, the one where us Barenaked Ladies fans living in in real time, we consume Old Apartment, the studio version. But then there's a version on Rock Spectact.

And then this is like the first time. Which I mixed as well. Yeah. Which you mixed as well. And then there's the first, I believe this is the first time, you know, Casey Kasem is going to say the words Barenaked Ladies because it hits 30 or something. Like it peaks at number 30 on the Billboard Hot 100 old apartment.

But there's this remix for radio. So Mark Weisblot and I were chatting earlier. He's a regular on Toronto Mike. And he was curious to know, like, what do you do to a song like Old Apartment

to make it more palatable for American top 40 radio? Because it was kind of remixed for radio. Yeah. Well, I mean, mixing is a whole, there's so much authorship in mixing.

Um, so it was remixed. I don't believe anything was added. It was just a different mix. And I, and I would imagine I liked it and I knew it was a more radio mix, but if you really want an answer as to what is the nuance of the science of mixing that makes it more radio friendly. Hip hop elements?

No, no, no. It's going to be, I mean, I'm going to now really go deep. It's going to be about how to do that perfect balance of optimizing the exciting volume of it all. Making sure the vocals and the drums are all very present, but in fact you actually mux them a little more tightly together. You actually reduce the dynamic range that would be on a record and create a sense of spectacle by degrees of compression and distortion

and just amp it up. And there's a whole way to, and that tune, I think on the album version was mixed kind of in the spirit of all the songs on the record. But then this, the, the single version would have been just more compression and more,

I don't know, like what's that, what would be the perfect adjective, more spectacle, more what do the troggs call it, sprinkle fairy dust on the bastard? And that's your job. No, well, except someone else mixed it and they did a great job. I don't know who did it, but yeah. Alright, because I have to get to other great artists that you worked with, Michael. Holy smokes, I can't believe it. I feel like this is a four hour episode. I'm going to get to other great artists that you worked with, Michael. Holy smokes, I can't believe it.

I feel like this is a four-hour episode. I'm going to try to jam into like an hour and a half here. But here's a Barenaked Lady song. Our whole universe was in a hot, dense state That nearly 14 billion years ago Expansion started way back The earth began to cool The autotrophs began to drool The androids developed tools

We built a wall We built the pyramids Maths,s, began to drool the androids. All's developed tools, we built a wall. We built the pyramids. Math, science, history unraveling the mystery. It all started with a big bang. Hey! You produced that. That's the little 30 second bumper original, right? Without the extension.

Right. I did. I did, yeah. Wait, tell me about that. I've had Tyler Stewart over and he talked about how he didn't want to come home from the cottage to record this song. And then I think Ed talked him into it and said hey this guy's had hits this could be something this big bang theory yeah well you know when they were doing a lot of things and i might have been roped into several of them um but this one you know it was a pilot

and it was good the writing was good and everyone knew it was good, but you also never know. Like nobody knows when they're making Stairway to Heaven. And if you do, you're, again, you're probably a narcissist in denial. So they did the very best enthusiastic version of it. It sounded really great. It was connected to a team of people. And then of course the TV show,

both the players and the writers and everyone involved, producers, would do that and that confluence, involved, producers, would do that. And that confluence, that makes something really, really work and then become big. But at the time, it was just a pilot. And that's what we knew. By the time they did the extended version, which they had to come back, then it was already known that there was more momentum.

I think it was maybe a year later. And I just always remember that Jimmy just didn't want to lug his uh double bass down so the first one that you just played jimmy's on double bass and then if you jump to the um extended version he he's it's on a hoffner and i and they thought well should we record the first half i was like no so they all sat it within the studio with their headphones on. They heard that bumper going by and as soon as it finishes with the big bang, bang,

they just literally jumped in and started playing so the tempo was right and everything was right. And then I mixed to try and balance and match it and then it becomes the extended one.

And the extended one actually has the keyboard solo that's then used as the outro credits. Wow. Yeah. Do you think of all the work, all the fantastic music you've created and produced, that's then used as the outro credits. Wow. Yeah. Do you think of all the work, all the fantastic music you've created and produced,

that's the one that has the most ears that have consumed it? Sure, I've made fun of that. Of course. Of course. I know, I don't think it's going to be close, but it is kind of interesting. Do you remember the idea of, do you remember Blipverts? No.

That would be a Max Headroom reference. Well, I remember Max Headroom for sure. And Blipverts was this idea of advertising that is so short and sharp that, you know, they're just, everything that's required. It's like Brian Eno, you know, produced the opening, when you booted up Windows 95, that little sting was, he had two and a half seconds to write something. He says, well, what can I do with two and a half seconds? So I think that something that is only, I don't even I do with two and a half seconds? So I think that, um,

something that, uh, is only, I don't even know, I guess that's 15 seconds long or so, perhaps maybe more. I'm not sure. Um, well,

that intro right there was, uh, 21 seconds. 21 seconds. Yeah. So I think it was probably a second longer than the producers wanted. We're like, you're over.

Yeah. Well, trust me, that's how it works. And, um, so yeah, so it's,'s a thing and it but just because it's a blip for don't mean i don't love it well bernick i can't talk about bernicke ladies

without giving brian dunn a question because brian dunn is the biggest bernicke ladies fan i know and this is brian's words he writes you've done a lot of work with bnl and their side projects but there are two very significant albums that stick out for me. Gordon, their first major label release, and All in Good Time, the first release as a four-piece. Can you share some memories from those sessions? So we've kind of covered Gordon, but what do you remember about Bare Naked Ladies as a four-piece

when Stephen Page left the band? Well, I mean, I remember, you know, as we made Snack Time, it was when, oh gosh, you know, the truth of the matter is, is that I've worked with a number of artists that were in crisis while we're working and they have to finish working, whether it's because of contractual obligation or just because their work ethic makes it so that they're at least going to,

if they can't get along, they're at least going to birth the baby properly and do all that stuff. And so, um, during snack time, you know, it was very, very, um, trying to find a way forward cause there was a lot of interpersonal stuff happening at that time. And then, so by the time, um, all in good time came around, the fact that they asked me was really lovely. What do I remember? I do remember that, but anyone who produces for a living knows

that this happens all the time anyway, but I do remember that when we would take breaks and we would sit and I think Tyler would use Jimmy's big green egg and we'd get like pulled pork sandwiches

and we'd eat really well and we bonded and it was a very, really, because it was all recorded at Jimmy's home, it was on a home space. And there was just a lot of, a need to talk about feelings. Just talking about feelings, both through the whole range of like sadness,

disappointment, or maybe frustration and and there'd just be a lot of processing so there was um so i think it was the idea of doing the music and also um maybe they did it collectively or maybe because i was there or i have i inspire people to kind of maybe you know tell me about your father like whatever whatever it is and so i do remember that there was that it was a very heartfelt exploration of of you know because when it's like yeah it's like a it's like a petit more but not an orgasm you know little deaths are always hard so that's what i remember musically it was great it was exciting exciting. And, um, yeah, but that's the main, the main thing that I remember was that,

um, that people are people and, you know, and same thing with Steven, cause I'm still, you know, fond of Steven and we still are totally, you know,

chill with, with each other. I never worked with Steven, um, in his solo capacity, but I'm a huge fan and just, I've always written for him. And then I remember going out to the Junos some years back, and it was an interesting experience for me

because there was a band from Nunavut called the Jerrycans that I produced an album for. They had a lot of Nunavut throat singing, and they sing in a nook-to-toot. And I'm also a filmmaker, so i i directed this video and it got about 600 000 views and 600 000 yeah but so and it brought the attention to the the caris and the juno people and then it got the jerry cans a spot performing on the show so they asked me if i could come and be the their technical director i'd be in the truck with Doug McClement and oversee that stuff. I know Doug.

He's fantastic. And so I was there working in some interesting capacity. And at the same time, B&L had a kind of a luncheon date because they were being inducted into the Hall of Fame. And they threw a kind of a party luncheon for people, maybe the same 50 people who were singing along you know and i just remember all of them coming up to me and just being really really gracious and lovely about you know my my you know how i'm sort of woven into some of the

fabric of that story and i just remember uh steve and ed being really warm with each other and it was just you know it's like their their lawyers are going to go it's like godzilla and rodan are over there fighting and they're like just down there in tokyo kind of going wow you know let's just be people and so i just i remember that but i remember thinking how interesting it was for me to be at the arc of the kind of this idea of like the end of an arc even though no no one's really over, but, you know, B&L being celebrated. And there I was with this absolutely green band that like even Nancy, Mike,

the throat singer in that band who grew up in the high, far Arctic, you know, had never seen a tree until she was 18, you know, because it's a treeless landscape. And so coming down and being, working with them at the beginning of their arc, and then I am going and meeting these guys at the end. And it was a really interesting kind of weekend for me to see that and feel that.

Well, I'm very glad to hear that there was, you know, good relations there between Ed and Steve, because I think for us Canadians... Oh, I'm sure they've collapsed. I mean, I have no idea what's going on. No, we have no idea. But when Stephen Page was on Toronto Mic, they did ask him, like,

do you ever hear from members of Barenaked Ladies? And the one gentleman who still keeps in constant contact with Stephen Page is sweetheart of a man, Kevin Hearn. And I know Brian was going to ask about this too. You worked with Kevin on his solo projects and he wants to know what it's like working with Kevin Hearn outside of Barenaked Ladies. Well it's like working with kevin hearn outside of bare naked ladies well i i started working with kevin hearn before he was even in bare naked ladies so my look

people nope not quite that far back although i remember them no just his first solo album which i can't remember the name of maybe you can look that up but um yeah so i think i i think i've worked with kevin on maybe three or four albums or certain projects. And I remember doing a kind of a psychedelic video for him too as a director. But so Kevin. Mothball Mini? Mothball Mint. Mint.

Okay. I can eat my glasses. That's what I need. Mothball Mint. That's right. that's what I need mothball mint that's right and anyway

so Kevin making his way to B&L when Andy Cregan left and they were looking for someone and also working

with Kevin during while he was working really hard to recover from his leukemia we made an album

and I think Chris brown covered for him with bnl yes and the thing is is that every one of these people we were every one of them including the guys in bnl were all just queen street musicians like everybody knew everybody it was very organic it's you know like it doesn't surprise me you know because you know like stravinsky's teacher was Rimsky-Korsakov and and that seems like a magical thing but in fact they're just people living in Paris and they're just in the same community right so history imbues it with a kind of a exoticness but it's actually just folks so um so Kevin making his way to B&L just made sense you know

and uh and they had and they whatever they had their connection um so while he's in B&L just made sense, you know? And whatever, they had their connection. So while he's in B&L and continue to make solar records, I've been involved in some of them as well, but that relationship was established kind of before B&L. I could tell the listenership that Kevin will be playing at Hayden's Dream Serenade at Massey Hall. I believe it's this weekend. That's the fundraiser, right?

That's the fundraiser for the school that Hayden's daughter attends. And dropping by on Friday, this is interesting, dropping by is Amy Milan from S.T.A.R.S. S.T.A.R.S. is headlining. So Kevin Hearn's on the bill, of course Hayden's on the bill,

and S.T.A.R.S. are headlining. So there will be an Amy episode. And I'm going to say this because I know Sam Roberts is not listening. So Sam Roberts visits Friday, and then Amy's going to surprise Sam. So this is something to listen for. I'm going to keep the door ajar, and she's going to surprise him in the middle of the episode. You mean like an Ellen DeGeneres kind of thing? Like a scare the shit out of him? Well, not scare the shit out of him,

but sort of like, surprise! So this is just, you know, to create some compelling. Now, clearly you're not going live on this because you've given away the... Yes, except Sam's not going to hear this. Like I'm actually confident that, I know Sam's not listening.

Someone would have to hear it and then warn Sam. And I feel like that would be like somebody warning somebody of a surprise birthday party. Like who's going to do that? Cause it's all beautiful, harmless fun here. True enough.

I am playing with fire here. True enough. True enough. Okay. Don't play fire. Yeah. I just saw Kevin. He sat in,

it opened for and sat in for the violent families the other night. Right. I saw it on social media. I saw the, that was a great show. It was really, it was fun. Amazing.

Amazing. Okay. I'm going to drop some more names, but Blair Packham wants me to ask if you remember Pig Farm. Sure, I was a member. So who was in Pig Farm? Speaking of the Doughboys, John Delorier, who was also in my earlier band with Paul Myers, disband, so he was in disband,

and then he was in the Doughboys, and he joined, actually, I guess he joined the Doughboys after Pig Farm. And then the principal writer, guitarist was named Adam Fox, although his name was spelled F-A-U-X. So should have been faux, but yeah. And I think what happened at, let me think. Yeah. My father had, it was 1993. My father had just died of cancer and I spent about 10 months in that sort of arc because again, I reconnected with him and whatever, blah,

blah, blah. And so when he died, there was this kind of great sort of weird relief and making peace with inner demons and et cetera. And I was like, you know what? I need to join a rock band because I just spent all this time nursing him and at the expense of whatever relationship I was in. So I was like, you know what? I need to join a rock band. Because I just spent all this time nursing him

at the expense of whatever relationship I was in, so I was now single. And I just wanted to get in a van. And John suggested, and I think I'd played with Adam. I'd mixed a Pig Farm record. That's right. Oh, what's her name? She was the drummer of that band, the original drummer.

She's a painter. She's a great painter, but I'm blanking on her name. You can help me out here, Miked. Blessed be the Miked for his research cell shall heal all. I have the answer for you right here. Her name, she's a great painter too and good drummer. Anyway, yeah, so I joined, I got in a van and I started touring with,

with Big Farm. And, and also we produced a record. And the one thing I like about that record is it's one of the few records that I, I might've mixed, but when we actually recorded it. Leslie Becker. Becker,

yeah. And, I just really loved not having to take on all the responsibility of producing a record. I just played the drums and then I had to wait for my tambourine overdub and my backing vocals. And I was sitting in the lounge like everyone else playing video games. And it was so much fun not being a producer. I see. Yeah. And then I mixed it.

And Blair's in this band too? Well, you know what? We were principally a trio. Okay, because he thinks he was in it with you. He might have been. I think we went through a period where we were a four-piece, but you know what? To be honest, it's a bit of a blur.

Clearly, anything Blair's involved with is a blank. So either he's like one of those men in black guys who just keeps zapping me, so I don't know. I'm a spirit of the West, yeah. Turn the channel a little bit, a little Spirit of the West. And then I want to talk about this band. Jesus hangs behind the glass Above Venetian doors

His window box boasts Crimson flowers fresh cut in the day But before and you couldn't find a smile if you nailed it to his face Jesus Christ hangs his head

with grace and if Venice is sinking I'm going on to love cause beauty's religion and it's Tell us, what have you done with Spirit of the West, Michael? Where did I put them? What have I done with them? Oh, now I'm sad because there's no more Spirit of the West.

But you produced this album. I did, I did. Yeah, I did two records with them. Well, I mean, two things come to mind. One is the story I remember about this one, which is maybe the lesser interesting, was somewhere in one of the verses, John says,

erection, the word erection on a horse. And back in the 90s, apparently, Chum FM was the flagship of, and the gatekeeper in Canada, and they got seven phone calls complaining about the profanity of the word erection. And Kim Cook at Warner was informed

that we had to, that they pulled it. And every radio station in Canada pulled it. Wow. And we had to quickly put together a clean version, which, again, before laptops and DAWs and things that would make it very simple, again, you know, I had to, like,

take the instrumental version and splice it. Anyway, whatever. It took about five days to get that together, to get back to Warner, to ship this special little CD out to, um, all the stations in Canada. And at that point it lost all its momentum and just sort of died on the vine. I mean, people know it and they kind of know it, but the real momentum of it was killed because they say there was about a 10 day gap and then it just sort of died on the vine. I mean, people know it. Oh, man. But the real momentum of it was killed because they say there was about a 10-day gap and then it just sort of missed its little window.

That's infuriating to hear that. That's a true story. And then the other story, of course, was, sadly, you know, John's more famous for having contracted early Alzheimer's, onset Alzheimer's. And I always remember, you know, much like Glenn Campbell, the strangest thing about Alzheimer's, on set Alzheimer's. And I always remember, you know, much like Glenn Campbell,

the strangest thing about Alzheimer's is that music is the last part of the brain that atrophies. And there were his ability to perform if he had an iPad in front of him and Toby, the bass player, would have a little Bluetooth foot switch and he could keep an eye on the lyrics and and managed to get through that but then eventually he couldn't even um do that then there were these sort of tribute nights of spirit of the west tunes with different people coming in and doing the lead vocal and john would then just get on stage and all he could do at that point was dance and he would dance, but in a weird present way. Not to suggest that it was still that part of him. The performer part of him was still clearly present. And he would just dance

with everyone all night. And I remember he also made a play and a film with his wife where he tried to explain just before he slept over the horizon what it's like. It was very, very heartfelt and really, really beautiful. And yeah, it's just a really, and everyone in that band is just, is so lovely

and they're just real, really great people. So anyway, so it's, yeah, it's a beautiful, one of my connections is with that band. Shit, I know this. I don't recognize it. Sort of familiar.

Oh, wait a minute. Yeah, yeah, it's Gordon, right? I am a stranger You can't see me I am a stranger Do you know what I mean? I navigate the mud Do you know what I mean? I navigate the mud I walk up on the path Jump into the ride Then I jump to life

On a secret path. The one that nobody knows. And I'm moving fast on the path nobody knows. I have a heavy heart going from John Mann to Gore Downey here, but you won the 2019 Canadian Screen Award for Best Sound Nonfiction for Gore Downey's Secret Path Live in Concert. Yes, indeed. Of course, you're playing the studio version, which is really beautiful, too. Also, that has a connection on two levels. One is a really dear friend of mine named Justin Stevenson, who's an

animator and a filmmaker, sort of realized the motion version of that graphic novel and that was connected to both the performance and also the the cbc broadcast of that the one that i mixed but the thing i remember about because i never i never worked with gourd um like professionally as such but we knew each other for years. But I have two anecdotes. One is, speaking of Hayden's fundraiser, I came back from one of them.

I was with the band, the Jerry Cans, and we ended up going to the after party. And Gord was there. I think he was with Kevin, Hern, and Gord was sick, but they hadn't yet done the the final hip performance but he was

seated and I remember kind of eventually getting to sort of sashay up to him and I was describing to him my my work up in the

in the Arctic and how I found because Nunavut was one of the last parts of Canada that sort of the

you know what do they call it it, the colonization of Canada happened, these sort of imperialist colonizers had a say. In Nunavut, they got to watch a lot of these treaties get broken in southern Canada, so much so that when the Canadian government finally really did a push up there, a number of these Inuk kids had become lawyers. And one of the reasons why Nunavut has more agency than other parts of Canada when it comes to restructuring the relationship of First Nations to the government was this head start. And so when I was up there working in the North, it struck me as one of the few places where even though there's a lot of trouble, you know, alcoholism and spousal abuse and everything that

goes on in struggling parts of the world, that the relationship between the European descendants and the First Nations is one of the most balanced, just intuitively, in that part of Canada than any other part of Canada I've ever seen. So I was telling Gord that. And I remember him looking and saying, no, I never got a chance to get up there, and sort of quietly knowing that he'll never get a chance. But I have another story of Gord's that's funny.

Can I tell a funny Gord story? Oh my God, yes. Okay, good. So I'm on tour. I'm a member of the Rio Statics at this point, and we're in Calgary. We roll into the hotel because we drove from some gig prior to that, so at two in the morning. And we had brought a, what do you call those?

It's a milk crate, right? Lined with plastic that had these corn chips that were in the green room. And then we threw them in the van between the two front seats, and everyone had been stuffing their fist in this thing, and eating corn chips on the way from Edmonton to Calgary, and it had pulverized into a kind of a dusty pulp. Anyway, we dragged him, Martin dragged it in with the rest of the guitars, and Gord's there, he's in the lobby, he can't sleep, so he just had gone outside and just sparked up a spliff, and he got a little high, and he was like, hey guys, how are you? And so I remember taking the guitars and putting them on the trolley and I'm walking towards the elevator. And then I sort of, cause I'm so tired,

I hear shouting and screaming, but it's not connecting. And then I hear Dave Bedini shout, Mike. And I turn around and Gord is, had taken a big wad of this stuff and is choking. He literally cannot breathe. He's choking. And I turn around and sort of in slow motion,

I start running back and I see the concierge is running around to the other side of the thing and Dave gets behind Gord, grabs him, lifts him off his feet and literally does a classic Heimlich

and this ball of saliva goo, thick wad of corn chip dust goes. Wow. And then all of a sudden, by the time I run there, Gord's all teared up because he's been choking. He's like, okay,

okay. And, and, and everyone were like, holy fuck. Okay. All right. We're okay.

And then the next night when, when the trip, the hip were on stage, Gord said, as often he will use metaphor, but he said, this one goes out to Dave Bedini who saved my life. And people would think,

well, it's obviously some poetic thing. But in fact, Dave had flooshed a corn chip out of Gord's thing. Wow. That's an amazing story. No, but that's a great story. And it leads me to the real static segment

of this conversation, Michael, which I'm thoroughly enjoying, by the way. Oh, thanks. We might need a sequel. You got a vast discography. In fact, I just want to shout out

that you won the 2009 Juno Award for Children's Album of the Year for producing Snack Time for Barenaked Ladies. Getting frozen in the snow. Watch your seas, watch your seas, watch your seas, watch your seas. And only some will know where the ragged people go. Towns are built by the banks of the reservoir. And those climb higher from their old familiar yards. Whale music is a beautiful album, and I can't believe you produced it. I can't believe the producers in my basement right now.

What an album. It's a good album. Yeah, it's a great album. Great album. Yeah, I'm listening to it going, oh, man, Ampex 456, 24 track through an SSL. Nothing sounds like it. That's so nice. It's so pillowy and nice.

That's an old guy analog reference. I love it. Even if I don't get the reference, I'm glad I recorded it. It's the manufacturer of tape. The actual stock of the tape. What do you remember about producing whale music with the real statics? The main thing

comes to mind was the album that preceded this, Melville, was so well received that I'd never really been a producer of a sophomore effort. And in an unspoken way, because a lot was unspoken with that crew, I couldn't get them to go into the studio and actually record. We would set up and stuff, but then people wander off and there'd be distractions

and maybe there was this little 8-bit video game of like a car race. You could race each other and round and round it went. And I thought, well, it's their coin. I can only push so far, but it just came a point where I was like, dudes, we got to do this. And then I remember there was this like frank discussion because everyone got really heated that they were like, they just felt a lot of pressure to, you know, to make it good. And there had to be some kind of a, I don't know, like a blowout.

I don't even really remember how it was resolved, but I remember that we had to draw attention to the fact that for two days nothing had gotten done and we didn't have a lot of time. So then there was this, then you know what we've got to do is we've got to go in there and just absolutely fuck up. Just go in there and fuck up and be like fine and then they forgive themselves of all this idea of expectation and they just went in and started fucking up and it was uh and it was good because that tension was released so i remember that and um

yeah you know they were well rehearsed i mean a lot of this stuff was really what they were doing on stage there was a few moments that I would throw my, you know, the introduction to what's it called? California Dreamline. I sort of tried to bring a little bit of Brian Eno-like ambient sort of shaping. Oh, there's actually a big BNL story related to that. Let's hear it. So the introduction to California Dreamline, there's a kind of a Brian Wilson Beach Boys moment where you hear this. And we actually got the guys in B&L to come in and sing that.

But because I'd run out of tracks, I had to use a sampler and lock it to the machine for the mix and stuff. So it was a bit of a complicated thing. So they came in, we got them to do the oohs and ahs. bit of a complicated thing so they came in we got them to do the oohs and ahs and then as i had to prepare for a proper playback because of this tricky business um the guys in bnl and the guys in the real statics went into the studio grabbed a bunch of instruments and just were jamming their freaking faces off and because the studio was so well built i heard nothing i just saw like flailing laughter and arms and flailing while I'm quietly trying to build

this moody intro. And then it's done and I invite them in to listen to it and everyone really likes it. And as the B&L are leaving, their manager, who now I do not speak positively because he actually ended up

embezzling me and stuff. But the guy, Nigel Bast, I'll name his name because he's a dick, said, B&L wants you to produce the album they worked with you they said the experience of working on these harmonies they want me to do gordon and so that's how i got the gig i'm so glad you told that story so you never know what will jog what stories you've got a million of them but i will tell you are you at all a uh at all a hockey fan am i a a hockey fan? Well, I can't skate.

I played lacrosse as a kid. I am a hockey fan in a weird way. I only went to one hockey game, and that's because we were supposed to sing the anthem with the Rheostatics because Dave Clark had left. Well, I was going to say you were a member of the Rheostatics. And then we got fired from the anthem, but we got to keep the tickets, so I got to watch the Dallas Stars and the

Leafs. Well, that's funny. They probably got Jim Cuddy to do the anthem. But I watch hockey. I mean, I like international football. and the Leafs. Well, that's fine. They probably got Jim Cuddy to do the anthem. But I watch hockey. I mean, I like international football. I like soccer more. Okay. I only brought up hockey because Jeff Merrick is a hockey analyst at Sportsnet. He's been there forever.

And if you say that he's been on this program as well, and if you say, Jeff, what's your favorite song of all time? He will say Dope Fiends and Booze hounds by the rio statics yeah yeah great song okay oh this is the tail end bring that down okay so i also wanted to just point out before we left the rio statics and then i need to shut out some partners and then oh quick quick two quick things one is i'm a big fan of uh the watchmen from winnipeg yeah and uh winnipeg manitoba, and they have a great single called All Uncovered,

which people know from Much Music, or 102.1, or whatever, and there's a part of All Uncovered that I always felt was borrowed from that song we just heard by The Real Static. This is like Separated at Birth, Distant Cousins, or whatever? I'm not doing it justice, but... Hang on, who played bass in The Watchmen?

Ken Tizard? Okay, no, I'm just thinking it justice. Hang on. Who played bass in The Watchmen? Ken Tizard? Okay. No, I'm just thinking. Well, anyway. Sammy Cones on drums. Everybody's, I know The Watchmen, but I know of them. I don't know them,

but yeah, sure. I mean, if you listen to whale music, they're definitely lifting the Beatles at one point. It happens. Oh, yeah. And when Dave Bedini came over the first

time, I told him that there's a, there's a part of, I believe it's the Sloan's Cokes Me that is very, you can hear parts of that in Claire

by Real Statics. Like, so it's all, you know, it's all cut from the same beautiful fabric. I got to visit Sloan when they were recording that in

New Jersey. I swung by the studio because it was Kravitz, Lenny Kravitz's place and he had just bought that beautiful board from Abbey Road, the old tube board. But it hadn't been wired in and they were a little

disappointed. It was sitting there wrapped in plastic. But I remember sitting in for a while and just having a visit. One of the great albums of all time. Yeah, I love it. Love it. Okay. All right. Here we're going to cook with gas here. By the way, in total, do you know off the top of your head

how many Spirit of the West albums you produced? I think two. Two, okay. I think two, yeah. That was one of the, I have a series of Blair questions. Well, and I also did a one-off with them,

which was a Joni Mitchell cover for a compilation. That's actually how I started working with them. I did that with them and then we ended up, because I'd been working with Jane Sibri and met them in Mushroom Studios in Vancouver. Okay. So I'm going to, after I shout out some partners, I actually have a few people, I just want to drop their names and hear anything about them. And one of them is actually Jane

Sibury, who I recently had the pleasure of chatting with here. So Great Lakes, by the way, Jeff Merrick worked for Great Lakes Brewery for a short period of time. He went to Humberside Collegiate with the owner, Peter Bullitt and Mike Lackey, the chief brewmaster there at Great Lakes. So it's such a small freaking world. And he also, Jeff Merrick, not Peter Bullitt, buried Harold Ballard at Park Lawn Cemetery. Interesting. My parents are buried there too. While you're doing work, can I evacuate my bladder? Oh my goodness, yes, of course, of course, of course. You can do that. I will give some love to Palma Pasta.

I've got a lasagna for Michael here in my freezer. Palma Pasta has a great location in Mississauga called Palma's Kitchen, and they're going to host all of us FOTMs at TMLX 14. That's on December 9th at noon. We're going to reunite the pandemic Friday 3. This is exciting. So Stu Stone, Cam Gordon, myself, please come. Great Lakes will give you a beer. We will

have fresh free pasta from Palma Pasta. It's going to be great. Shout out to Ridley Funeral Home. I've got a measuring tape here I'm going to give Michael when he returns. Mineris has a fantastic podcast called Yes, We Are Open, and Season 5 is dropping right now. Every week, a new episode from Season 5. In this season, Al Grego, good FOTM

himself, the cuddly one, he went east to the Maritimes and to Newfoundland, and he's been collecting inspiring stories from small business owners and sharing them with us recycle my electronics.ca i got cliff hacking is going to return very soon to talk about what they're up to at epra but go to recycle my electronics.ca to find out where you can drop off your old tech your old electronics to be properly and safely recycled and i want to let you know that you can learn how to plan, invest, and live smarter with the Raymond James

The Advantaged Investor podcast. Whether you already work with a trusted financial advisor or currently manage your own investment plans, The Advantaged Investor provides your engaging wealth management information you value as you pursue your most important goals. Okay, and it's October 19.

Halloween is imminent. Pumpkins After Dark is the award-winning Halloween event in Milton, Ontario. Buy your tickets right now at pumpkinsafterdark.com. Michael, welcome back. There's a measuring tape for you from Ridley Funeral Home,

pillars of the community since 1921. What does one measure in a funeral home? You never know what size casket you need. And of course, Moneris has sent you over a wireless speaker. It's a quality wireless speaker so you can listen to the season five of their new podcast.

You got some gifts. And there's a lasagna in my freezer for you from Palma Pasta. So fantastic. Now I have to fit into the pannier of my motorbike. Right, you biked here. That's cool. And by bike, I mean motorbike,

not the bike I do, which is... Indeed. But if we can... You know, I can always drop it off actually because... No, no, no, it'll fit. It'll fit. And by bike, I mean motorbike, not the bike I do, which is, but if we can, you know, I can always drop it off actually because. No, no, no, it'll fit. It'll fit. Okay. Beautiful. Beautiful. All right. This is going very well. I'm going to drop these names and then I have a couple more songs here, but the names I want to drop, let's start with the name you just dropped. Tell us about working with Jane Sibury.

Oh gosh. I want to be respectful. She's rebranded. She's renamed herself. I renamed myself too, but I can't remember. Issa. Issa. But when I talked to her only weeks ago,

she was going by both basically. She was cool either way. Okay. Well, you can call me Hubert too. I might. I might do that. Anyway. Yeah.

Jane. Yeah. Jane. Wonderful. What do you want to know? I don't know. I found her very interesting. Like I, yeah, Jane. Yeah, Jane. Wonderful. What do you want to know? I don't know. I found her very interesting. Like, I thoroughly enjoyed the chat, but there were people who heard my chat with her and

didn't like it as much as I did. Like, it was a little bit polarizing on, like, this episode, which will be universally beloved. But I think when you get, like, she's a true artist, and I think sometimes you have to kind of get into that mindset to maybe appreciate her. artist and I think sometimes you have to kind of get into that mindset to uh maybe appreciate her well I mean I my work with her I guess technically I didn't produce the record I was her engineer and I was working with um John Switzer on a another band out of London Ontario called Suffer Machine and John and Isa were partners for many many years. And then they had split up and she was going to do, got signed to, I think it's Warner.

Gosh, I think so. Not A&M, but Warner. And so John had said to me, you know, she's looking for an engineer. She was going to, wants to go to Vancouver and he'd been working with me. And he said, you know, I'd like to recommend you to her, which he did.

And that's how I ended up meeting her. And he also said he had all these ideas that he wants to convey. And then could, you know, could he did. And that's how I ended up meeting her. And he also said he had all these ideas that he wants to convey. And then could, you know, could he, you know, could I be like a fifth columnist to his information? I was like, John, I don't think that's going to work, but maybe that's not even a true story. I seem to recall that that's the case. So I went out to, um, we did a bunch of, uh, pre-production in Toronto. Toronto. We were working with a bass player named Bryant Didier. And I was actually drumming on those sessions. And I even got to play one gig with her at the Ontario Place Forum.

I won time being on the rotating stage with her. And I always remember she was telling a very heartfelt story to the audience. And I was sitting at the drum kit and I had a backing vocal mic because I was singing harmonies. And I leaned forward to adjust something on my kit and my forehead hit the mic really loud. Boom. And she just stopped. And I was like,

oh shit. Right. And then she started again. But, um, yeah, we went out and to, and I worked with her for a really long time.

I, it was a wonderful, amazing journey because, um, two things because, um, two things. One was, it was a year that I had decided to stop producing because I, this was 1991 or 1990.

And I felt I'd run out of ideas. And I thought if I could engineer under other producers or whatever, I could steal or just get refreshed. So, and also I thought as an act of, what's the word I'm looking for? Just to, to get my ego in check and, and, uh, how to be 100 behind things maybe i don't agree with sure and anyway

so i worked with her for a really long time uh i do remember when she worked we did calling all angels which with katie lang and which was a beautiful song it is and it was originally commissioned to be in a Vendor's film. I think it was called Till the End of the World. Yes. And so Katie came in because Jane and Katie shared a manager who is a Bob, I forget his name, but he also had some great cookbooks. Interesting guy. All I really remember about that was setting them up we had to again

remember this is not laptops is with a two-inch tape and and their voices were so dissimilar that we decided to just make the just loop the chorus and they just kept singing the chorus round and round until eventually katie kind of decelerated into a shape that would kind of match more jane's thing and jane kind of like sort of amped up her thing a little bit and they just kept cycling around and around and around um till his voice their voices started to gel and this is just the two of them out on the floor and i and that that's endless cycling because we're not recording we're just doing it i just remember being sort of feeling really lucky to be privy to hear that and the only other thing I remember was when she first showed up,

she had her dog and I heard her manager, well actually, you know what, you shouldn't even tell this story, said her actual name. And I said, Oh, like,

and she said, don't call me that. Um, I don't want to use that. So I realized I felt really sort of embarrassed and sheepish, but, um, I realized as I'm telling the story, I probably shouldn't tell her name.

I'm sure everyone knows what it is. Um, and so, yeah, so we did that. So, cause Katie only sings on that chorus and, um, I realize as I'm telling the story, I probably shouldn't tell her name. I'm sure everyone knows what it is. And so, yeah, so we did that. So Katie only sings on that chorus. And the only other thing I could tell you about that song was it originally started as a hurt and country tune about going into a bar and seeing your man with another woman. and rewriting and rewriting until eventually she found something that was more in line with something you'd think about on your deathbed or something that was more like universal, spiritual, not quite so grounded. And I'd love to find, I wish I had the cassette somewhere of the original country version of it because the chorus is identical, but the verses were real, like a real, you know, like Nashville country tune.

Interesting. Okay. Very interesting. Now here's a gentleman, you a real, you know, like Nashville country tune. Interesting. Yeah. Okay. Very interesting. Now, here's a gentleman, you biked here, but it was a motorcycle. And this gentleman I'm going to ask you about right now biked here on a bicycle. And I think he might've been one of those voices in the, if I had a million dollars. You gotta let me know who's there.

Cause I don't remember. Kurt Swinghammer. Oh yeah. Kurt. Talk to me about Kurt. Oh, just a dear, dear friend um uh kurt i mean amazing painted paint i have one of his paintings and um we've made a lot of records together kind of been art guys on the scene together i don't know for some reason he's in a whole other place in terms of, um,

I mean, not just friendship, but just, there's something about Kurt that just feels very, very warm and close and comfortable. So yeah, I ended up, I think I'd worked on his first recording and tried to produce the way I

produced. And, and he ended up telling me a great story, which I said he was working in an animation firm and, um, he realized that he's not a team player. He's just not a team player. So he wouldn't show up at the meetings. And then finally the management would say, well, Kurt, you weren't there. And he says,

oh yeah, sure. I just wanted to make, make it clear that I'm not a team player. I'm happy to do the work, but just don't ask me to come to meetings. So we actually clashed our first record together because I sort of thought I could play the role of, you know, producer, our first record together because I sort of thought I could play the role of producer captain and he did. So we kind of sorted that out and then we did a second record where he produced it all. But then when I started mixing it with him, he gave me so much latitude creatively. And it's an album called Vostok Six, which is a song cycle loosely based on this idea of romance with the first woman in space

with a kind of a Soviet twist to it, all done on ADATs and whatever, like kind of lost in the worst of early digital, but it ended up being a really, really beautiful record. And it just started this collaboration where I know how to work with Kurt now in terms of like, he's a painter. He's not, you know, so he knows exactly what he wants and I just help facilitate it and then help mix it.

And he just makes great records. Speaking of great records, I want to ask you about this song, which I think is a, is a great song. We'll be right back. Holds up nicely too. I still enjoy listening to it. In 2023, but this is from Ashley McIsaac's Hi, How Are You Today?

which won you a Juno Award for Best Producer. Any thoughts on, any memories of producing this? Oh, good Lord. It's funny because I did not produce that track, for one thing. Oh, really? Okay, my apologies. I love this song you didn't produce. Well, I produced the vocals on it. The story

with Ashley, I often mention Ashley as my one opportunity to really work with a real Jerry Lee Lewis, like a really powerfully eccentric and at the time, you know, it was, it was, I mean, not just challenging, it was fascinating because whatever, like stuff would be, again, you got to contextualize it in the era it was done in. Studios were

really expensive. We'd book books, book musicians and, and actually wouldn't show, just wouldn't show. Like it'd be a $3,000 a day and he wouldn't show. And wouldn't show. Like it would be a $3,000 day and he wouldn't show. I find out later that he got on a plane and he'd flown to Los Angeles and he was busking on, maybe it's good, I don't remember his name, O.J. Simpson's Lawn. He just did that. And then I would kind of- This story is unbelievable, Michael.

And then I'd rally in. What else do I remember? I remember he was coming out to his parents on the couch in the back, which I was really into, but then he'd show up with a hooker and start doing drugs and it would be like,

ugh, Ashley, and then he kind of... So I remember at one point thinking, what I got to do, because we got nothing done, as I said, I would fill the studio with freaks as intense as him, which was a terrible mistake. So I ended up getting all these musicians that were just like on the edge of.

Anyway, so on and on it went. And at one point I told Ashley, Ashley, look, all I need you to do is just stand on your cardboard, your board and play. Stomp your foot and play and i will wrap an album around you right and so he did and uh i ended up delivering the record to the to a&m and they said no we're gonna and we're gonna fire you so i got fired from this album they kept half of the half of the tunes that i did and then this tune which was produced by a fellow named pete Perlesnik. And I'd worked with Pete

and Pete produced the Sarah Harmer record and stuff like that. So they pieced together but in the end, Pete had not a dissimilar experience. But the irony is is that it's a record that I got fired from and then I won a Juno for it.

Right. Peter didn't get a Juno for it. And it was a very strange, mixed up. Anyway, I love it. I really love Ashley. Especially with the context of years that have gone by. Because it's a little bit like you were talking about Jane. And the idea that I'm a firm believer that every artist can just let their freak flag fly.

The producer needs to have one corner anchored to the ground and then the other corner can flap in the, in the wind with the artist so that they at least feel like they have a compatriot spirit with them, but actually the producer is actually grounded. And, um, uh, anyway, it ended up being a very stressful cause I was kind of felt a bit young at that time. So it was only the mid nineties the mid 90s and then he ended up being successful and and and yeah that's kind of the things that come to mind with that story well that's that those those are wild stories actually going to busk on OJ Simpson's lawn as one of the all-time greats I think is amazing yeah I mean it cost 3,000 bucks, and I would just start mixing my own stuff.

And anyway, I'm telling the story, like, not a, I mean, because whatever, I mean, Ashley's already told, y'all knows this, like, he's a super different dude now. But back then, it was a really, really intense time,

and it felt stressful for me. But I realized, actually, I was just with a, like a super intense, interesting character. And that's just who he was. And that's who the label signed and they managed to get it done. And I got fired, but then I got a Juno and it all kind of came out in the wash.

He's amazing. He's amazing He's amazing Power Power in the blood Power Power in the blood Power in the blood Power in the blood. Power in the blood. Power in the blood.

Power in the blood. No time for spin doctor's medicine. Corporation government selling me some cover-up. Weaponizing pesticides, poisoning my groceries. Nothing but another drug, a license they can buy and sell. No, I don't mind dying. No, I don't mind dying. No, I don't mind dying.

No, I don't mind dying. I don't mind dying. Buffy wasn't busking on O.J. Simpson's lawn, right? Tell me about working with Buffy St. Marie. She is... I would just literally, literally sit at the knee of the elder and just soak it in. She was amazing. Amazing. I'm glad to hear this.

I've told this story a million times, but I used to watch in the late seventies, I would be sat in front of Sesame street and Buffy was on. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, so the most youngest age of absorbing and you know, there is big bird and there was Buffy.

Like this was like, and it's like, I have just adored her ever since. So I love hearing this. Yeah. It was, it was, it was for me,

um, like a journey that was refreshing in terms of like, cause like you see the list, I've produced a lot of albums and, and it was just, it had a quality to it that it was also an interesting time because once again, much like,

uh, referencing, uh, change of heart and, and, uh, real statics and Barenaked Ladies I was producing

three women Misha Berger-Gossman Buffy and Amelia Kern all at the same time literally doing two weeks with one

and then doing two weeks with another and the differences of the experience just continue to reinforce like Amelia's record

is amazing but Misha's was a very strange journey which I will not speak of and um but Buffy was just this fantastic experience and so this track is actually not produced by me this was by Chris Burkett and and John Levine that we were three producers and she sort of focused on tapping into the qualities of each um but it was decided to give the record a sense of unity that I would mix all three.

So I ended up having John and Chris different times with Buffy in my mix suite, plus the tracks that I did. And I was more like the live guy. I got the live off-the-floor stuff. But you won the 2015 Polaris Prize for... Well, you and, I guess, the other two producers. Yeah, well, technically Buffy won it,

but the story I love about that was, and this is maybe something to be revealed to anyone who understands the music industry, is that we're sitting at the table, and Buffy was explaining how there was some huge snafu with the flights coming out of Europe, and she had to drop on her credit card everybody's flight, short notice, crew.

It was this huge bill, like 30 grand. And the Polaris Prize is the only prize in Canada that actually has a cash thing for it. So when they announced her, I'm at the table, she looks at me, she goes, I can pay my credit card! And she gets up and goes and, and, um, accepts the award because, uh, uh, you know, it was a lot of money. And so I just always loved the idea that, uh, you know, that even touring back then and all the need for stuff was, uh, you know,

it's still this idea that you, when you hit a certain level of success, you pass through some membrane into Mount Olympus or whatever, but it's not. It's just people and making it happen. Oh, this is funny. This is really funny. I believe the title of this tune has the word Toronto in it as well, doesn't it?

Yes, it does. And I hear that reminds me of music for airports. That do-do-do-do. Sure. I mean, I think I was 16 when I did this. This is music I made when I was 16. Let's listen for a moment here. On my debut cassette.

Very good, Sid. It's called A Young Toronto. Yeah. very good city it's called a young toronto yeah the piano was owned by my bass player's grandmother because i didn't have a piano so i went and recorded it sort of i had a little cassette four-track multi-track back in 1978 or 79. This was recorded. Wild. Here we are now playing on a podcast in 2023.

I guess you didn't see that coming here. No, not at all. Yeah, that piano part, only because I was actually... I would have heard that album and I would have... You've been playing my... You know, every young... You always hear your influences when you're young right wow

so here we're going to do a little mop up although I do actually believe I need to start warming you up that at some point returning for a sequel because there's so much music we didn't talk about like I mean we didn't touch on the Waltons we didn't touch on Bourbon Tabernacle Choir we didn't

touch on Great Big Sea there's Choir. We didn't touch on Great Big Sea. There's so much we should talk about. I do want to point out a quick fun fact, which is we did talk a lot about real statics,

but did we mention that you replaced Don Kerr as the drummer for several years in the early 2000s, right? You were the drummer for real statics. Yeah, I was the third drummer.

There was Dave Clark would have been the first 13 years and then Don put in seven years and then Don put in 7 years and then I put in 7 and then I think Dave's back with them again. And you did, when we talked about Spirit of the West, we did not reference

the fact you won a Juno Award for that. Best Engineer. I did, yeah. I have a producer I guess the producer one would have been for Ashley and the Waltons and then the engineering one is for Spirit of the West. And Blair

wants me to ask you, amongst the countless artists you've produced recordings for over the years, who do you feel should have been more successful, however you may define success? Clearly, it should be Blair Packham. But you've blocked out all memories of Blair. I don't know if I've actually, maybe I see again.

Yeah, no, he has that gun thingy that makes me forget everything. I don't think Blair and I ever made an album. I think we've definitely been on things and appeared in different iterations, but never an album. Who should have been more successful? Oh, listen, there's so many. You know, the only sin that these projects ever had was that no one ever heard of them. Not once they heard them, they would be like, this is amazing.

But it's, it's, it's, it was never a fault of the content, you know. Any stories at all about Jeff Healy? You worked with Jeff. I was involved producing the music for a film noir kind of murder mystery thing that starred Martin Tiele and Sarah Sleen and Mary Margaret O'Hara. And they acted in it. And it was an ambitious sort of film, rock and roll film, but done totally straight up like a film noir. And Jeff came in and played Cornette on a tune. Rock and roll film, but done totally straight up like a film noir. And Jeff came in and played cornet on a tune.

So I worked with him as a, he plays trumpet. He was a fantastic cornet player. So he played cornet on something that was then mixed to sound like it was coming out of an old car radio. And he just sort of, his music appears incidentally inside this scene. But it was, yeah. And so the production itself had a kind of a core of musicians and then these different singers. It's quite a trio there, actually. Sarah Sleen and Margaret O'Hara, that's quite a trio.

And Martin Thiel of the Rheumatostatics. He's the guy who gets murdered, whose head ends up being burned in a oven. This is called Black Widow. That's correct, yeah. Okay, okay. okay final question i want to close with this because i'm actually now my brain has decided this is part one so uh i do got to get you i hit all the high the the low hanging fruit i've kind of picked but there's a lot more i want to do here and i need to wrap up but the final question is okay so we established the fact you rode a motorcycle here. Yeah. I understand you went on an epic adventure to Argentina by motorcycle.

I did. Well, again, like I mentioned, joining Pig Farm because my father died, and then I joined the rheostatics after my first marriage failed. And then I herniated a disc and was laid up, basically crippled for about half a year, working my way back to being able to walk at all. And another long-term relationship had ended then, and so suddenly I'm single again and I can barely walk.

And I thought, well, listen, if I'm going to be miserable and lonely, I might as well turn loneliness into the quintessence of solitude. And so I took a motorcycle and I rode to Alaska and back to see if I liked it, and I did. And then next year I got a motorbike and I rode to Alaska and back to see if I liked it and I did and then I next year got a motorbike and I rode from Toronto all the way to the very bottom of Argentina to Ushuaia through 14 countries

and I took my time and did about 33,000 kilometers solo motorbike trip through the Americas this is about 10 years ago now. But this is similar to what Neil Peart did right? Similar but different. No I mean his associated sorrows were nowhere near. But the whole spiritual meditative quality

of a lone motorcycle ride. Sure. I still don't think it's anywhere in the league of what Neil was doing to try and process what he had to go through. Mine was a little bit like that, but it was more like just kind of lost weirdo. But,

uh, yeah, but the idea of, um, riding a motorcycle long distances, cause I, I learned to ride quite late in life. I only got my license when I was 45 and,

I realized I like to go far. So yeah, so that's far. I did that. I did that trip and, um, it was, uh,

it confirmed for me something I suspected, which was that one of the best kept secrets in the whole world, actively maintained as a secret, is that it's filled with billions of good people. Billions of good people get up every day, get along perfectly great with their neighbors and go to sleep over and over and over and a very small percentage,

sometimes in larger volumes, sometimes less. Terrible things happen. But so I went down there and just experienced kindness after kindness and it was a fantastic, fantastic experience. A spiritual journey of sorts. I don't know if you're queuing up your exit or what.

I don't know what to do now, Mike. No, you can. I'm nervous. You know, I know. Don't be nervous. Listen, it's a long song. The reason I close with Rosie, any lowest of the low stories to take us out? Well, I mean, I never worked with lowest Lowest of the Low, but I did recently watch

an upcoming documentary about them. Subversives. Yeah. Is it the new one? Directed by Simon Head. Yeah. And so I got a sneak peek

of that. Enjoyed it? I did too. Yeah. I saw it as well at the Rivoli, actually. I saw it there. And I got to say,

Michael, fantastic. I mean got to say, Michael, fantastic. I mean, these songs and albums, that means so much to me that you've been a part of. So thank you for that. And thanks for visiting, man. This was a great pleasure. Oh, thank you, Mike.

And thank you for the, I don't know what I'm going to measure from a funeral home, but I'm intrigued by it. Absolutely. And I didn't mean to scare you with the music. The music doesn't mean, you know, shut up, Michael.

It's more of like you know you can talk over it and then we'll have a natural ending oh well I mean the low I mean I saw them

at the Rivoli and the Horseshoes so many times I really love this band love this band I just booked Ron Hawkins on Humble and Fred radio Humble and Fred have a podcast

and I put Ron Hawkins as their guest on Tuesday I just think the world of that band yeah me too me too look we have so much in common. This was amazing. Again, I have a lasagna for you

in the freezer, this beer. If we could fit it on your motorcycle, if not, I honestly could easily bike it over in my backpack. But regardless, we're going to take a nice photo together by the tree, and you, my friend, will be back, because this was just too good. I enjoyed it. Really did. Thank you. And that

brings us to the end of our 1,346th show. You can follow me on Twitter and Blue Sky as Toronto Mike, so pick your poison. Is there anywhere in the public web space where we could learn about what's new with

you? I know you have a website. Are you still talking to me? Yeah, that's for you. I'm fading away. I thought you were just doing your... No, no, I'm bringing you back in here. Oh, my website is... No, no, no, no. My website is completely, mostly under construction. The website's even relevant anymore. But it does have a long... The

discography page is... It does. You can see how many records I've done. Millions. Although I am rebranding myself as a filmmaker, and I got a couple of films that are kind of getting tons of laurels. Okay, here's what we're going to do. For part two, sure, I want to mop up some more music stuff, but I want to dive into the film.

We kind of skipped over it because I was so excited to have the bare-naked ladies change of heart, real statics guy here. But we'll revisit all this, dive into your filmmaking, you know, the filmmaking part of your career when you visit next time. Sure. Yeah, it sounds lovely. And if people can spell your name,

they'll find your website. I suppose that's true. I suppose that's true. Much love to all who made this possible. That's Great Lakes Brewery, that's Palma Pasta, Raymond James Canada.

Mineris. Recycle My Electronics. Pumpkins After Dark. And Ridley Funeral Home. See you all tomorrow when my special guest is Sam Roberts. Yeah, the wind is cold, but the smell of snow warms me today And your smile is fine, and it's just like mine And it won't go away, cause everything is rosy and gray

Well, I've kissed you in France, and I've kissed you in Spain And I've kissed you in France and I've kissed you in Spain. And I've kissed you in places I better not name. And I've seen the sun go down on Chaclacour. But I like it much better going down on you. Yeah, you know that's true.