Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Michael Sadler from Saga: Toronto Mike'd Podcast Episode 1805

Episode Date: November 25, 2025

In this 1805th episode of Toronto Mike'd, Mike chats with Michael Sadler from Saga about his health, the band, and what's next. Co-hosting this episode is Saga superfan Cousin Jano. Toronto Mike'd is proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, Ridley Funeral Home, Nick Ainis, Blue Sky Agency, Kindling, RetroFestive.ca and RecycleMyElectronics.ca. If you would like to support the show, we do have partner opportunities available. Please email Toronto Mike at [e-mail].

Hello, everyone. This is Cousin Janow, and I am here to talk about one of my favorite things of all time, the band, Saga. Saga I've known since I was 13 years old. I've been listening to their music since then, up until about 10 minutes ago. They are from Oakville, fantastic band, one of the seminal prog rock bands of this country, one of my favorites of all time. Well done Cousin' Jano. You're going to take over this podcast one day. It's lovely. Welcome to episode 1,8805 of Toronto where you want to get the city love.

Proudly brought to you by RetroFestive. Canada's pop culture and Christmas store, Great Lakes Brewery, order online for free local home delivery in the GTA. Palma Pasta, enjoy the taste of fresh, homemade Italian pasta and entrees from Palma Pasta in Mississauga and Oakville. Blue Sky Agency, ask Doug Mills about how Silen delivers the space to focus, collaborate, and recharge. Nick Aini's, he's the host of Building Toronto Skyline and Building Success, two podcasts you ought to listen to. Kindling, go to shopkindling.ca for free one-hour cannabis delivery. Recycle My Electronics.ca. Committing to our planet's future means properly recycling our electronics of the past. And Ridley Funeral Home, pillars of the community since 1921.

Today, making his Toronto mic to debut, it's Michael Sadler from Saga, but joining me while we wait for Michael, who's joining us via Zoom, so we'll hear a little bell, and we'll all hear it together. Joining me in the basement studio is Saga superfan, Cousin Janow.

How are you doing Cousin Jano? I'm good. I'm very excited. This is a Meet Your Heroes Day. Well, you met me before. Yeah, that's true. Meet my heroes and my heroes today. I'm, so we have a little time. So I'm going to just peel back. You know, I like to peel back the curtain here. So we have an 11 AM Zoom with Michael Sadler from Saga. Don't call that band Saga. No, please do not call them Saga.

What would happen if I called this band Saga? Well, you would go, you would diminish in my eyes. Okay. I can't have that happen. Okay. So, this is a big deal for everybody of course Michael Sadler we're going to find out how he's doing yeah we're going to promote a show he has uh at the Heineken stage in mississauga on December 14th yes hopefully Michael will let us ask him a million questions about saga and about the music yep but the reason I booked I'm being very honest with you right now it's a tender moment hopefully the bell doesn't interrupt this a wonderful moment we're going to share

I honestly booked Michael Sadler because I knew you were such a fan and I thought if I can do this for Cousin Janow, then the whole experience, the whole social experiment makes complete sense. I may have cried when I got the news. I may have cried. May have or did you cry? Yeah, I cried. And texted everybody I knew. I said, guess what I'm doing? Can't believe it, can't believe it, can't believe it.

and I talked to my niece, Eleanor, who has known about Saga. She was born around the same time that I was, you know, a high school student, and she used to go, Jano, Saga, Sox. But she didn't mean it like, it sucked. She was just like Saga, socks. It was like a thing. Yeah. So first person I said, hey, can I say that, Eleanor?

Can I say that on the podcast? She was like, for sure. So, yes, I've been listening to them forever. my sister Cappy, so would be Cousin Cappy, was the one who got me interested in Saga and it was a love affair ever since. Let's explain this nickname, though. I'm referring to you as Cousin Janow, but I assume, and I've always done this, everybody's on the inside.

This is this poor assumption I make. But that's some inside baseball. Why don't you explain for the Great Unwashed? Why do I refer to you as Cousin Jano? Well, you refer to me as Cousin Janow because my cousin Leslie was the one who got me in with this whole Motley crew. And I believe she referred to me as Cousin Janow. It became my tagline for many a thing that I do. So I'm Cousin Janow and by extension, my sister would be Cousin Cappy.

Okay, so these are names I need to know. Will Cousin Cappy be at TMLX21 on Saturday? No, I don't think so. Well, why not? Like, why not bring your sister into the fold? Let's see if she can make it. Palma Pasta will feed her. Yes.

I'm bringing fresh craft beer from Great Lakes Brewery. Excellent. There's some cans in front of you, cousin Janel. I can go home with you. Thank you. I'm told Ty the Christmas guy from retrofestive. C.A. He's bringing a gift for 75 people.

Great. I got the one last year. So what did you get last year? It was the mug, right? The moose mug. Yeah. It was great. A different gift this year.

Okay. From a different movie. Oh, cool. Okay. You might even be able to possibly guess which movie if you close your eyes and think really hard on it. But this is all happening Saturday and everyone listening is invited. So we're going to do all the sponsor mentions off the top because at any moment a bell will ring and we'll have Michael Sadler on the line. But I'm going to do a few partner mentions.

And then we are going to, I'm going to grill you a little more about your saga love affair. Okay. In fact, let me bring a little song. in the background because I don't know with these zooms like it's not as easy with Zoom to bring in the music like true it's I had Alan Doyle here yesterday and I found it like effortless that I'm just going to start playing some great big C yeah and I can fade it depending on what he's he's saying or how he's feeling I can look into his eyes but when you got a guy on Zoom like do I just throw on on the loose like I will but I don't know how that's going to play so here let me play

this yes yes what do we we listening to it's time from their very first album and this was the song starts it all and it's funny because it goes through a really i go up and down with this song when their live first live album in transit came out i was over the song because it was played and played and played and played and i kind of re uh you kind of re discovered it's fantastic song where was it played uh like like so you grew up This is Toronto we're talking about, right? Yeah, yeah. What radio stations would play saga?

I'm going to say Chum FM back in the day, but they, they made a lot of crossover. I mean, it was for a band that is characterized as a prog rock band, they have a lot of crossover. So you would hear songs on things like Chum. What about Q107? I didn't listen to a lot of Q107, but I would imagine. I was a CFMY girl, so... Would CFNY play saga? Probably.

Because I feel like Marsden would be all, he'd be all into this prog rock thing. Yeah. Like Rush and all of them. Yeah. Yeah. I would agree. Okay. So this is the first radio hit for Saga.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, listen to his voice. Come on. And that's Michael on vocal. Michael Sadler. It's catchy. I dig it.

I didn't know this song until this week. And now I'm all like digging it. But, Cousin Jan, do you smoke weed? I do not. Do you have any loved ones who consume cannabis? Oh, I sure do. Okay, here's what you got to tell them, okay? Shop kindling.ca.comdling.ca.

Shop kindling.combing.com. Am I hitting, you know, your cousin, Leslie Taylor, who has been in the basement. Yes. What did you think of the Father's Day episode? A couple of Father's Days ago. I cried, of course. It was nice to hear Dave, but it was nice to hear Uncle Russell. It was nice to hear Chris and,

talking about. It was fantastic. It might have been one of the first episodes I listened to. Well, your cousin was on it. You had to listen. Yeah, it was fantastic. So what she says I'm not hitting the D hard enough on shopkindling.ca. Like I got, it sounds like kindling.

Oh, it's kindling. There's nobody a camper out there? Come on. So, yeah. Shopkindling.ca. It's free delivery within an hour. Yes. And you can track it online and it's discreet and welcome aboard.

shop kindling.ca. And I mentioned RetroFestive because they're giving us all a gift, but you can save 10% right now at RetroFestive.ca with the promo code FOTM. You taking a note over there, Cousin Jano? I am taking a note.

Taking a note here. Let's give some love to Recycle My Electronics.ca because, cousin, yeah, you've heard this before. If you have old electronics, old cables, old devices, you do not throw it in the garbage because those chemicals end up in our landfill. You go to Recycle My Electronics.C.A. Put in your postal code and find out where you drop it off to be properly recycled.

Beautiful. You're beautiful. Okay, let's shout out Nick Iieny's. Do you think Nick will show up at TMLX 21 on Saturday? I don't know Nick Iini. I've heard the name, but. I think you might have been at a TMLX at the Brew Pub, the GLB Brew Pub, where he was at. So maybe I didn't introduce you, but Nick is a big lovable man.

Love this man. He's the host of Building Toronto Skyline and Building Success to Podcasts that you should be listening to. And while you're listening to podcasts, listen to Life's Undertaking from Brad Jones at Ridley Funeral Home. Brad and Ridley Funeral Home have been pillars of this community since 1921. I mean, Brad's not that old. But he bought it from a guy who bought it from a guy. But they've been around since 1921. Oh, I like this in the background.

Okay, last but not least. Absolutely. I don't know if you go to an office to work. Do you go to an office to work? I do not. I'm a prof. Okay, a proff. Okay, well, if these busy learning institutions require, you know, creative and dynamic work environments, maybe privacy pods.

I feel like this is a good thing for podcasters if you're in a noisy environment. You get yourself one of these silent privacy pods. And if you have any questions about any of this, your man is Doug Mills. at Blue Sky Agency, and Doug can be reached Doug at blueskyagency.ca.com. Okay. So a little more about, tell me a little more about Saga. So when I booked Michael Sadler, it was for you, but subsequently... Greatly appreciated.

But I've realized now, even if you were unavailable. Oh, I moved all sorts of stuff to make this happen. Well, I mean, this is, this is, as I said to you, bucket list. An unexpected bucket list. Like, wait, what? Well, have you ever met Michael? I have never met any of them. You've seen them live.

Oh, yes, many, many, many times. Yeah, many times. They, um, I've got a few fun facts. One, they played my high school. I had tickets. Do you think like everyone was excited for me? Yes. Did I get the flu and was in bed and could not see them?

Yes. Wow. I also have Jim Gilmore's towel from their concert, New Year's Eve concert at Maple Leaf Gardens that I have to this day and I have some memorabilia as well I didn't bring it

and Ian and Jim Crichton so the bass player and guitar player their brother his girlfriend was their sister and she went to my high school so there's all this kind of really cool saga confluence going on. Yeah, your saga adjacent

your entire existence here. So now I want to drill in because we have a bit of time here. Drill in on your level of nerves at this moment and how it's been. So from the moment I basically, I guess via WhatsApp, I basically, I don't know if it was WhatsApp or text, I can't remember. But what does that matter, Mike? What a detail. But Cousin Chano, I think I invited you.

I said, would you like to co-ho? I'm all choked up. It's such a beautiful story. Would you like to co-host this episode with Michael Sadler from Saga? And you said yes. And I told you what time to be where and all that important info.

And you're here right now. Great to see you. Always great. And I'm going to see you again on Saturday. You are. Damn straight. Can't wait. Now, like, walk us through.

Like when you, like, where were your nerves when you first heard? How has it been? Because it's been about, I don't know, 48 hours or something. Yeah. I mean, it was, I mean, I've been nervous because, you know,

as you know, it's meet your heroes, which I, you know, I'm excited for. Yeah, like when you meet your heroes, you're like, holy cow. Had I had more time to kind of emotionally prepare? Yeah, I was nervous, but I knew once I got in here, once we got talking, it was going to be like, okay, it's going to be just fine. I know a lot. I'm not going to stick my foot in my mouth. He's going to be excited or not as to what I have to say or what questions I ask. He's been doing this forever. So, you know, I looked at it as to sit down and chat with somebody doesn't realize they've been my friend for 40-odd years. Now, we do have a technical thing to discuss real quickly here,

which is that, okay, so he's on Zoom, and if you know Zoom, you get to pick one camera. Like, I don't get to pick multiple cameras in Zoom. So I get to pick one camera for me, and then the camera I'm currently using so that it doesn't conflict with the fact that I'm actually recording this with the studio. cameras.

Right. So I'm picking the laptop camera, right? Does that work best for you? Well, it works best for me, but it just means that he won't see you. Oh. Can you flip ever? Well, if I flip it, messes up the other, like there's two different streams every point.

I know, this is all the technical. I like to, you know, peel back the curtain. But I like, at some point. Maybe near the end you can flip it. Yeah, like, okay. So I'm just saying for the conversation, you'll just be like the voice of God. Fair enough. And I just hope that's okay that he doesn't see you.

But you're going to see him because you're going to look at my screen. Yes. Okay. Okay. Perfect. Did you... Here we go. Well, he's got to show up first.

Oh, I thought he was here. No. You're going to hear a bell. It's going to be very, like, very exciting when you hear the bell. Because that's when it's go time. It's Pavlovian, really. Yeah. And then forever more when you hear like a Zoom bell.

I'll be like, Michael Sadler's coming. Michael Sadd was here. So you're born and raised in Toronto? Born in Montreal, raised in Toronto. So how old are you when you come to Toronto? I was two, but we spend a lot of time going back and forth. Yeah, every summer, multiple times. I consider myself a Montrealer.

Okay, okay. Interesting, interesting. I also lived there later in life, so. Okay. How long have you, in this stint of your Toronto life, how long have you been here? 25 years. You know, I think you're a Trontonian. I hate to break it too.

Well, I went to high school here. I went to great school. What high school did you go to? A.Y. Jackson. Which you know is the home of Alex Lifeson, and Rush Mike. I mean, you can't miss Rush Mike on though. Yeah, but, you know, Rush Mike who at one time had a perfect attendance record at TMLX events will not be here, will not be at TMLX21 because his American wife is, I think,

dragging him to the States for Cleveland. Yeah, he was at a wedding last time. Well, he's spending too much, I know he's married to an American. Maybe that's an exception. But spending too much time, you know, an enemy. territory and not enough time at TMLX events. I will let you say that. I just did. Okay. So let us

if we don't, let me just address this 800 pound gorilla in the room, which is that we sort of thought for at least a moment like Michael Sadler might be dying. Yeah. I mean I think I heard that through the Toronto community.

Well here's what he posted. I took it and we'll have to talk to him about this early in the episode. But he wrote on social media, Michael Sadler, I learned in April just before boarding a cruise that my cancer is incurable and untreatable. So that was the post. That was it. What are we supposed to make of that?

There was no additional context or information. Like I read that and I just thought, oh, what's sad news we're going to lose Michael soon? He then went on because, of course, I heard that. I went right on the internet. And he said later, at the time that was the, that was the next. day, he said, this is what he wrote the next day. So a day later, after we all pretty much started shouting out Ridley

Funeral Home, okay, we're losing a legend here. Yeah. He wrote. I don't think we did, but we thought it. Well, we didn't because he's on our Zoom in nine minutes. The surgery I underwent successfully removed the cancer and as no

further treatment or cure is available in my case, my focus is on staying healthy. So that's a very different tone than the initial post. And then I think he wrote one, and I am paraphrasing, that he, you know, he basically said, I'm not, you know, one foot in the grave. He was like, I am sick and I am terminal, but I am not one foot in the grave. But I think that initial post, yeah, I was quite, shook you, right? Yeah, I might have texted Cousin Cappy. I probably texted Cousin Leslie.

I probably texted, you know, I was like, oh my God. And it really did shake my world in terms of this is a mainstay. And as I have said, and if you, you know, my family can attest, there's never a time when you come on, come over to my house that at some point while the random is going, that Saga won't come on. Like they are a big part of my life. And when things get unleveled, they are my leveler. And are you going to share this with Michael?

I sure am. Of course. What do you think about, okay, so I'm a, I think I'm a titch younger than you. Yes, you are. But I am a fan of rock. Yeah. Who did listen to a lot of Q107 and a lot of CF and Y,

but probably at the time you're probably listening with Marsden and the gang. I'm probably tuned to Tom Rivers on 680 CFTR. Oh, I remember him. You don't hear a lot of, like not a lot of saga going on over there in the top 40 world. No. Although one song maybe, but we'll get to that. So, but so, so. Me and I do.

I consider my ear to the ground with music. I never really realized saga. I knew two songs precisely. I knew two saga songs that I would hear on the radio, just flipping around. Can you guess the two songs I know? On the Loose would be one of them. And...

What do I know? Yeah. What do I know? Yeah. Which isn't... Yeah, I think I heard some other stuff, But, yeah, I mean, this is, you know, everyone knows this song. So let's hear the big banger here while we wait for Michael.

You dance. That's his key thing. So this is the song that breaks them in the top 40 universe. Yes. I have a note here. And see what I'm doing here. See how that controls the song, this fader right here I'm pointing to? When Michael shows up, I have to remember.

He's on the same channel. So if I do that, I'm losing Michael. But that's a fun technical production thing here. But on the loose peaks at number 22 on the Canadian charts. We're going back to January, 1982. So for this song, I would say 100 out of 100 Canadians, they probably recognize this song if they're up a certain age. But without a doubt, this is the big saga jam.

Yeah, it is. And we used to, as kids, um, recorded on VCRs and watched like, this was certainly one of them. And this was played a lot on, I mean, was much music on me? Well, I'm going to bet you're thinking of Toronto Rocks. It must have been,

this video got played a lot. And so. Right beside Helix. Well, give me an R. Yeah. Maybe. Maybe. Sure.

So. So, what does a super fan think of the big hit? I mean, I love them. I love their musicality. They have incredible layers of all sorts of synth and guitar and vocals. So it's a great song. It's not in my Desert Island. Do you want to give us your top saga jams?

My three absolute favorite songs are the intervie. Review, which comes off Worlds Apart. And that's this album, right? Yes. That's the big one. And the other two come off their first album, Images at Twilight. And, of course, I'm blanking on their names right now. It is...

There he sits. Drawing images. It's called Images. There's my singing for you, everyone. Images and also slow motion. and the fun fact about that is the first three albums had three different keyboard players and then Jim Gilmore came in on Silent Night

and basically although there have been line-up changes because they've been around a long time and people do other things stayed pretty much for the whole thing and he's yeah he's a phenomenal keyboard player opera opera singer so was the guy from Helix

he was an opera singer was he I don't know that we heard much of that didn't I think at the end I think he did it because yeah I actually hope I got the right band yeah Helix the guy from Helix opera singer hey here so let me check your temperature yeah not literally but a saga

saga don't say saga Mike do not mess this up don't ever say sagga what a bangor here so it's now 10,000 Okay. Now, rock stars are not known for being early or anything, but I'm only mildly nervous for you because Rance Mollinix was scheduled a week or so ago for a Zoom just like this. And I was solo, you know, I'm down here in the same mode. I'm all set. I'm sitting here. I'm going to chat with Rance. My hero, Rance Mollinich. And he doesn't show. And then I give him five minutes. I give him 10 minutes. And I write him an email. And I'm like, I got ghosted by Rance Mollinix. Like, that's a bit. badge of honor. But then he was very apologetic and he made it up to me in his episode from Friday was fantastic. But how do you feel now knowing that at any second now we're going to hear fitting? I'm good. You know, and I knew like, you know, the apprehension is always beforehand. I mean, it's Michael Sadler. I get to meet Michael Sadler virtually. I mean, who, not in my,

not on my bingo card. Not on your bingo card. No, not at all. So, you know, either way. the live stream gets to hear how much I like Saga and or Michael Sattler gets to hear. Did you think I was recording this, Cousin, Jan? Are you not? I am. Yeah, I thought so. I was like, we're live streaming.

I think that, you know, that initial social media post that said I have, you know, terminal cancer that's not treatable or whatever, in a sense, you probably thought you would never get this opportunity. Like, would we even have a Michael Sandler in the universe? Sadler.

Say it again? Sadler. What did I say? Sandler. I don't know if I said Sandler because I know it's Sadler. Okay, you know, I have this bizarre accent. You know how serious I take my saga?

Oh my goodness. It's Saga, okay? Yeah, sorry. So let's shout out some people on the live stream, many of whom we will see in the flesh on Saturday at Palmer's Kitchen. Again, second floor of Palmer's Kitchen, noon to three next Saturday, which is the 20, what is that, the 29th? Yeah, I think so.

Okay, it's a Saturday. Okay, I just heard the bell. I'm actually nervous for you. Here we go. So, again, I have to. to make sure he sounds good. Let him know who you are. And then we're going to let the listenership hear how this transpires. But this is Michael Sadler. Yes. Yes, I know this. Here we go. Michael letting him in. Meet your heroes. Michael. Michael. Mike. Always good to meet another Michael.

How are you, sir. There's so few of us, right? No kidding. Yeah, yeah. It's such an uncommon name. You know, so when you meet one in the wild, it's exciting here. But absolute pleasure. So, Michael, thank you for doing this, but I have to tell you that there is somebody else in the room with me. But because of the cameras, I'll have to show you her at the end of the chat. And then you can meet her, which will be a thrill for her. But can I introduce you to who I believe to be the biggest Michael Sadler fan, the biggest saga fan I know of?

This is Cousin Janow. Hi, Michael. Nice to meet you. Hi, Janow. How are you? Good. How are things? Are you in L.A. right now? No, I'm in an undisclosed location somewhere in the Midwest. All right. All right. Well, welcome. It's a pleasure to meet you. Thank you. So, Michael, as we chat it up here, you'll hear from Jano quite a bit because she has questions she's been holding on to for many, many years.

All right. I'll try and I'll try and search my memories. there's a lot there's a lot of them in here i know they're in there it's just accessing them sometimes i was thinking the same thing i'm like wow you're going far back yeah this man has had a life he made no oh yeah yeah and and then some yeah well to be discussed yeah go ahead michael i was going to say um this is going to be recorded obviously because we're not live um i have a few links that i can supply you afterwards that you can attach to the the broadcast when it goes is that goes that yes 100% yes absolutely

in fact on that note if you don't mind I like to write off the top let the listenership know because a lot of Saga fans are tuned in right now especially in the GTA but you have a pop-up show scheduled for December 14th on the Heineken stage in Mississauga

I do I want to shout out Ed Sousa who's been in this very basement on this program but this is a hundred percent so what do you think of this chap Ed who's promised me he's going to see me on Saturday at an event I'm hosting at Palma's Kitchen Saturday. He says he's going to be there

and we'll know it's him by his hat. Oh yes. You'll see him coming for like three miles away. And he likes it that way. I think his hat enters the room before he does. So what can we expect on December 14th in Mississauga? A little bit of this, a little bit of that. Some saga material.

There's some things that I've done with David Barrett who's going to be accompanying me. some original material of his that I've recorded with him. We've also recorded some cover material. Some other cover material, some things like, I think we're doing a Bowie tune or two, maybe a couple of Beatles songs and that. It's a very loose, very informal, sit down, play a few songs, tell a few jokes. Yeah, it is what it is.

It's a pop-up show. I contacted Edd said I felt like doing something. with David. You know, I have family in the area. I thought I'll kill a few birds with one stone, come up and say hi to everybody, sing a few songs and hang out. I mean, you asked about Ed. Ed has been, I met him, I actually believe, unless Ed wants to correct me, if I'm wrong, I believe I met him the first time doing a show, the very play, the Heineken Stage with David Barrett, an acoustic thing. And that was the first time I had met Ed. And we've had, you know, contact, you know, a lot of contact over the years of Saga gigs, solo gigs.

He's just outstanding. He's great at what he does. He's one of the most likable people out there in this business. And they are few and far between. And he's one of the good guys. And most importantly, a great promoter of wonderful music. Absolutely. 100%. Now, Cousin Janow, are you going to be at the Heineken stage on December 14th?

I'm going to try my hardest. Okay, we'll do better than that. Jano, that doesn't sound like a... No, no, yeah. That doesn't sound like a commitment to me. Well, sorry, Michael. Yes, I will be there. Okay.

Yes. Can I come and say hi? I mean, you don't know what I look like right now. It's really, it's really difficult not to in a room like that. Yeah. Well, you know, some people are like I'm performing. There's no back door, as it were. Yeah, yeah.

No, no, no. It'd definitely be a, you know, a glorified meet and greet after I'm all done, said and done. Okay. Okay. Very informal. Now, Michael, so many things going on. I did want to record the Zoom, so you're going to have to consent on your side here. Recording in progress.

That's from the better, late, than never category there. May I ask you how you're feeling these days, Michael? Yeah. A lot better than a year ago. How's that? Yeah, it's, I guess, it's gone past being a work in progress, as it were. I was, you know, diagnosed with the cancer. last year around I think August or so and we had to move on it very quickly I

won't get in the details of the nature of the cancer that suffice to say it was non-treatable and so the defending pieces had to be removed and I went through that and had a major tour in Europe lined up and I said to the I said to my physician would you mind if, I mean, would it be, you know, would it be feasible if I, you know, we put this off until the middle of, and I was about to say the word December, I got halfway through it and he just starts shaking his head and I went, okay, now I understand the urgency of this. And I was in the operating room, I think like two weeks after that. And then on stage about three weeks after that. And he, he says, I'm not going to condone this, but, you know, If you want to just be carefully. And it was rough, the tour itself. The shows themselves were fine. You almost never know what I was going through.

But it was after the show and the traveling and all of that really, really took its toll. But I couldn't cancel. There were too many people. The shows were mostly sold out. You've got local crews. You've got the audience, the tickets. I just said, there's too many moving parts

and too many people that would be out of work, of you know being applicable to a show i just i said no i've got to if i can do this you know if there's any way i can pull this up i got to do it so it ended up being very successful paid the price when i came home uh because i said i said really we're not doing that anytime soon i've got i've got to really you know get a get a handle on this but it's it's it is what it is and um it's an adjustment you know it kind of makes you look at life slightly differently and you start you know waking up in the morning going hey i made it to another day you know so but just monitoring, you know, regular, regular checkups and keeping an eye on it.

Because I'm feeling a lot better. Thank you. I was going to see you at Kerrfest. Yes. And that was, I think, around the time, which is fitting because it's in Opeville, that it all kind of came out that you. I believe, if I'm not mistaken, that was September something, like very early in September. The surgery was September 12.

So, yeah. It was kind of, timing was not great. Yeah. Yeah, because then it was also, you'd also, I follow you on Instagram, I follow Saga on Instagram, and you had posted there. And then did you end up doing a cruise after that you were on? Or was that before? After the, after the European tour, early, early, I guess April it was,

the tour, or they showed. Again, it was a commitment that was, made a far less stress than the tour because you get on the boat and there you are. I had a wheelchair to get around just for stamina sake and that two shows on the cruise. But I said to the guys, you know, this is it for now. I just, this is about as much as I can do, you know, I've got to start really just concentrating on the health. And so we kind of went on hiatus and went into like a looking after family and, and, and, and everybody's a little a few things going on that you know we kind of put on the back burner when we're

busy all the time and it gave us a chance that she's kind of regroup you know we've got some writing to do we've got we're staring the 50th year you know yes you are it's like you know year and a half off or less than a year and a half off so you know we're kind of in in writing mode now because we're thinking about that so we'd like to have something for the 50s so so it's it's in a way it's a blessing well there has to be there should be I mean I We can't just fade off, not with the 50th, you know, imminent. It's almost a blessing of disguise where we're kind of forced to get into that mode and relax at home and do some writing and spend time with family. I have a chance to spend a lot of time with Saren, my son, who I'm now in a band with called Saren Gaser.

We had our premier at Prague Stock this last October. Excellent. Yeah. And we've also got a really cool YouTube channel going where we are, it's a series of reaction videos to the entire saga catalog. And we're doing one song at a time, starting with the very first album. I think we've just, we're in the middle of dropping the second song, side two of the third album right now. Okay. But it's really cool because it's him hearing the songs mostly for the first time.

He's heard some songs because he's been on tour with me. Yeah. But he's discovering it and I'm, it's great for me because I'm going down memory lane and I'm remembering things. He's asking me questions where I go, geez, I don't know. How did we record that? So it's great for me. And it's really cool because it's a chance to hang with him and watch him react to what

dad's been doing most of his life. Yeah. And it's great. It's growing. It's quite organic and it's not, you know, an immediate overnight sensation. But we're up to, you know, close to a thousand subscribers already. Wow. And the people are really enjoying, I think the dynamic of he and I together, first of all.

But then, you know, my reflections on some of the way we've recorded things or little, you know, stories here and there and watching him go, wow, how'd you do that, Dad? He said, I actually like this song. I'm like, wow, thanks, you know. Thanks, Dad. But it's, yeah, I actually like what you do, you know, so it's good. So I'm going to use said, so, of course, the song in me is like second album, B-side, or second-side, third song. Is slow motion or images? Uh, what was it?

No, no. I tried. I'm going to, I'm going to, uh, I think we started off, um, let me see. We just started off, uh, too much to lose. Yeah. Was side one. Oh, sorry, side two first, first track. I believe, no, the end of side one was compromise.

Right. Um, you, you might be right. We'll see. I can't, I think this is. You see, now this is one of those questions, like I said, it'll be like, you know, what, what song is on what album and what number is it in the running order? Right. You know better than I do. Yeah.

Well, I have it from, you know, it was on Polidore. I, you know, I have that, you know, before you went on to May's Records and doing it. Right. That was all your own, correct? Yes, it was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, what's the name, Corcoran? Clive Corcoran.

Clive Corcoran. Yeah, my uncle's name. I thought it was Clive. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that's cool. What is the name of the YouTube channel again so that, of course, I will go and subscribe and watch? Well, it's a teen reacts to dad's 80s music, if you want to look it out that way. Okay.

Or just look up Seren Gaser. Okay. But it's there. Yeah, if you just do teen, teen reacts to dad's 80s music. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So Michael, I'm glad to hear you're feeling well. You sound strong to me. Like, you sound great. I didn't talk to you a year ago when you were in less positive shape. But you sound great. Less animated. Yeah, I feel good. I have to say, I mean, for all the, like, outward appearances in that, I feel a lot stronger than I did. I mean, I lost a ton of weight because of it at the time. That's all back. I'm trying to exercise as much as I can. Healthy diet and all of that. Like I said, it just puts life, you know, in perspective. when something like that, you get that kind of news like, okay, you know, time to readjust.

But I feel good. You know, I'm surrounded with really, you know, strong support and the people, you know, the fans and that and friends and family have been tremendous. So, yeah, here I am. So again, Jan, I know you got a million questions, but for. It's all good. But I need a, if possible, Michael, the saga origin story. You mentioned Oakville.

You mentioned almost 50 years ago. How does Saga form? Reader's Digest version? Or not. It's up to you. I was in a band with Jim Crichton, bass player, called Truck, in the very, very early days, like 1972, 73, 74. I was invited to join that band. I was in a band that was a blues band originally, if you can believe it, like an awesome.

authentic Chicago blues band. I mean, this white kid out of a church choir, you know, just fresh out of quit school, quit the choir, and joined this band with older guys. I think they were all in their, you know, mid-20s. And here's the 16-year-old kids, singing the blues, if you can believe it. And we kind of transitioned into a sort of a jazz blues, blues jazz band, and then kind of jazz rock-ish kind of fusion thing. which made sense later in retrospect because I remember being in that band the drummer went into Toronto

big city one day this was all in it's actually in Burlington well sorry we moved to Burlington it was in Burlington we were living at the time the band house he went into Toronto and came home and he said Michael I got this album you got to hear it and he put this album on we listened to side one

it was silence he turned it over put side two on and at the end of it i remember looking at him saying i have no idea what the hell that is but i want to make music like that and it was gentle giant's first album and and and i found it later that they originally i believe there were a band called simon dupree in the big sound and it was kind of a jazz fusion rock thing so it made sense that it became what's called prague um essentially and that was the birth of that beginning for me and um We had to, we had a, we played four shows because one of our songs was 25 minutes long, one song was 17 minutes long, yes, over, it was over the top, Prague. Yeah, and we had the, you know, you had to have a melaton if you were going to play Prague in the 70s.

So we had a melitron, a notoriously unreliable instrument for traveling. And sure enough, this one of the four shows we, we, did it broke down and we found out the only people that had one was a band called truck and jim and todd booth the keyboard player drove to london ontario from the toronto area with a melanchon to let us borrow i don't know what the connection was to this day i i would have to ask how how we even knew that they had one or knew of jim and and todd but they were gracious enough to drive all the way to London with a melitron that we could use and yeah through that connection that band funny thing about that one of the four gigs that we played was playing the kita balla and yes and we were the headliner on the bigger of the two stages and our opening

one of our opening or the earlier bands before us was rush kidding. Yes, yes. Tie in to Alex Lifes and going to my high school. Yeah, really? Yeah, yeah. Well, I think I believe, was that Dom Mills Collegiate? A. Y. Jackson. Okay, because I think Jim went, Jim went to school with, he mentioned he went to school with Alex, I believe. So maybe you went to the same school. Maybe. But anyway, yeah, I mean, I don't know if Getty would remember it, but I, yeah, John Rusty would have been playing drums still at the time, because this is, I guess, I'm thinking 70 something like early on but yeah yeah so anyway that that that band broke up I got a call from Jim because he knew me through you know us

borrowing the Melatron and this singer from Chuck was leaving and he asked if I would be interested I got the gig with truck we played for a few years together and then the band broke up and the management was kind of it was it was not a pleasant scene uh everything kind of fell apart and i got a bit left a bad taste in my mouth and the music business and i got out of the music business for about a year and a half i was doing i had a corporate job i was uh i was a sale a graphic arts salesman after well i worked on the table for a while and then then i was behind the wheel of this corporate card three piece suit briefcase going around trying to get clients oh yeah wow

Yeah, and then I got... Mind-blown, Michael, mind-blown. Yeah, when I think about it. Yeah, and I got... I came home from work one day, and I got a call from Jim, and he said, hey, I'm working on some songs. You want to come over and just, you know, put your vocal on it's just I have a guide vocal on these three or four songs I have.

I said, I'd love to, you know, so I went over, you know, had some supper, and then after supper went into the living room, and, you know, the drums were, like, using cardboard boxes just to get a rhythm, and it was a sound on sound tape machine you know and and yeah i did the vocals on three or four songs had a great time and went back i went home next day i woke up put my suit on got in the car did my thing came home remembering what had happened the night before and i uh i looked in the mirror after i came home i went who are you and i said what what are you doing. Needless to say, I quit the next day. I said, man, I can't do this anymore. I'm sorry.

This is not me. Yeah. I called up Jim and I said, so you want to go for it? He said, absolutely. And that was it. We just started writing. And, you know, Ian was a logical choice. Ian was a logical choice. Ian Crideon being his brother. And Steve Negus, he had played with not only in truck in the band called Flood, Jim and also Peter Roche on our original keyboard plan. The three of them had played together in flood. So that was it. We added Ian into the mix and that was the birth of the band. But it was called Pockets in the beginning. You would know that. Yeah. Where does the name Saga come from? That was us sitting around a boardroom table basically in the client in the management office going, we got to change the name because this other band released an album before us

called Pockets. So we need to change the name. So it's like, okay, throwing out all some, I don't know who did somebody just dropped the name saga and we all kind of pause and I like first of all it's a nice short and sweet name it's only four letters that's a you know it's like rush saga it's very punchy right but the implication of the never-ending story the the ongoing tale of was appealing because you're thinking longevity at that point even though you know you kind of cross your fingers hoping that a band will last three or four maybe five years at the best You know, then you hit the 10th anniversary, then the 20th, then he said, ooh, okay. But it was really that, just out of necessity.

But I'm glad it happened because it was a much more, I guess, appropriate name, considering the kind of music we were playing and what lay ahead for us. And what would you say to somebody who called you Saga? I say, are you from Canada? Right? Right? Are you, you're from Kennedy? I can't.

Every time so much to Saga, I'm like, actually, it's Saga. Oh, actually, it's Saga. Well, it's pasta. I know it's pasta, not pasta. Yeah. There you go. Yeah. Okay, big question for you from Leslie Taylor.

All right. Who I know is Janow. That's why Jano is called Cousin'Anne, because Leslie Taylor is her cousin. This is a long inside story, Michael, we won't bore you with. But to what does Michael attribute the success of Saga in Germany? Germany. Thanks for stealing my question, La. Well, come on, Ra. Okay, let's hear it. I've been asked that a number of times. You know, I can't, okay, it's only a theory. The only thing I can, well, here's the thing.

The two territories in the world that took off for us, or we took off in, or embraced the band, as it were, were Germany and Puerto Rico. Now, when you think about that, I mean, culturally. and geographically it's like how what do these two territories possibly have in common if you got what what um best explanation that i we have been able to come up with is perhaps the more um symphonic side of the band excuse me at the time with the strings and this and that um appeal to the the classical i don't say upbringing of the fan but they're they're surrounded by classical music steeped in classical background culturally and historically on a musical perspective and in Puerto Rico very much into rhythm obviously so perhaps and we had

that combination that's why we've kind of been an enigma and hard to describe because we're a little bit too proggy for the straight up rock audience and a little too rock for the real Prague period so we're in that middle ground we're very rhythmic and um That's my best explanation, that the rhythm, songs like Humble Stance and You're Not Alone, appeal to the Puerto Ricans or the Latino population. And the more orchestral side of the band, perhaps appeal to the Europeans. That's my best explanation. It seems to make sense to me anyway.

Right out of the hop so that the debut album is self-titled saga. And then, you know, you're selling, it's in Germany. It's an import in Germany. and it sells over 30,000 copies, so right out of the hopper. Yeah, yeah, and the record company was like, you know, they, they were watching this, and then hang on a second, these guys are selling a lot of imports, get on the phone with the management. Hey, how about, you know, I'm going, sure, you know, but yeah, that's how it happened. And in fact, Puerto Rico, the first time we went down there, we had a sold-out show a few thousand people,

but we didn't know what to expect. We were invited to play in Puerto Rico. We were like, huh? And we had only sold a handful of records, but it was at the time when, you know, one guy would get the record, then they'd make a few copies on cassette, and then it would spread through the island.

And there was a radio station called Alfa Rock Centaes. They were 100% into the band and started playing us over and over and over. And, of course, with the help of MTV, which we got in right at the beginning, which was, that's another story, but timing was. We were a household name by the time we got down there, and we couldn't believe the reaction. It was like, wow, we actually mean a lot on this island. And it just grew from there, and to this day, the beautiful thing about that is Alpha Rock, the radio station that supported us so, so much, so fervently through the years.

They went off the airwaves a couple of years ago, I believe now. And the very, very last song they ever played was The Perfectionist. Oh, good song. But it was the very last thing you ever heard from that radio station. That's how much they were into the band. And the strange thing is, that's a waltz. Now, there's the, okay, Puerto Rico, and they're glombing onto this. It's basically a waltz.

It's a three-four. You know, but it was huge on the island. They chose that as their final song. I was like, wow. So, yeah, but, yeah, Germany and Puerto Rico, you tell me, I, I, well, that was one of the things that I was thinking, I'm like, I'm trying to sort that out as I'm thinking, what, what questions am I going to ask Michael? And that was one of them where they appear to be disparate, but in fact, aren't. Once you kind of give this explanation, it makes a lot, a lot of sense. It does.

Very thoughtful explanation. Yeah, makes a lot, makes a lot of sense. Well, it makes, like I said, it makes sense to me. so I'm going with it. Well, it makes sense if you know the music. You're like, right, okay, yeah, for very kind of different songs for different things, but the musicality. And it's pretty timeless, too, I found it.

And I noticed, you know, doing the series with my son, Cerno will point out, you say, yeah, this is great. It sounds like, doesn't sound like it was done, you know, 35 years ago or whatever. It sounds like it could have been done yesterday. So, I mean, apart from some of the production from the earlier albums, obviously, the sounds, I'd like to, you know, if I had a chance, we record some of them. But then again, it is what it is. But yeah, I found and I've had this comment many times over the years that it's kind of timeless. You know, there's no, there's no

timestamp in terms of, well, that was definitely the early 90s. That's what music sounded like in the early 90s. So it reflects that. It doesn't really. And I was thinking about that in terms of the consistency. As I was looking at the timeline and looking at the discography, which of course I know, your sound is really consistent, considering the lineup changes that you've gone through. It has been remarkably consistent. And I also thought timeless. And I was thinking, was that because you love them so much. And it was like, no, it really is timeless. And you've really kind of embraced a lot as you went along in your journey, in my opinion, as the listener.

And I have a couple questions. When I think about Saga, not Saga, but Saga, and technology, you were early adopters. You did, in transit was, you know, direct to disc, which I couldn't even imagine being terrifying. The briefcase, you were really, you know, Jim Gilmore and his, I saw an interview a few years ago that he did about just the amount of technology that he's now using and has been, excuse me, has been using over the years. What made you jump on that bandwagon?

We just tried to stay ahead of the curve. We always tried to be not purposely different, but we just wanted to have something new to offer and we just you know anything brand new that came out we had to try it there were things that we went no that's that's gimmicky or whatever but we could we could see what was coming and we jumped on as early as we possibly could you know Steve with the Simmons kit the electronic drum kit and so and then going you know what it's these are just a bunch of triggers what we can build that anything could be a drum that's when we did the briefcase thing right

wow yeah and that was I mean the briefcase was um It was meant solely for a live thing. It was meant for fun for part of the show and the whole visual of it opening this briefcase and doing a drum duet with Steve. The fact of the matter is, I mean, that drums and drum solos that were, I think we put that together in like 20 minutes. It was just, you know, it was less about the drum solo itself than it was about the spectacle, the actual optic of opening a briefcase and hearing these drums. The funny thing is it became so popular because of In Transit. We were in a sort of rock disco not long after In Transit to come out. And they're playing rock music, people on the dance floor and that.

And it was kind of not the dance floor wasn't that busy at that moment. And the DJ put on the single, A Briefcase, which was called on the album. And as soon as I started, the dance floor just got packed. And I remember sitting back going, what? People are dancing to a drum solo? But it was, yeah, it was, I get, but I, you know, to answer your question, just trying to stay ahead of the curve, anything new to be, to be slightly different to enhance what we had. We've always tried to, we've gone out of our way to sound like us.

We've never said, we're going to make this kind of record, or we're going to make this kind of record, or this would be popular or this. We just, I've always just said, okay, it's time to write some new music. Whatever comes out is whatever we're feeling, whatever sounds good to us. And, I mean, we used to joke about if we were in a rehearsal or in a writing mode, if we played a certain part, and someone said, oh, that reminds me of such and such. We say, oh, we can't use that. Even if it was like two bars worth of something, no, we can't use that. If that reminds you of that, that means it's going to remind someone else of that. And we don't want anybody thinking about that if they're listening to this.

And I would agree. You're consistent. I mean, it's very, it's varied, but it's consistent in its uniqueness. Yeah. Yeah, I would agree. I mean, I have seen you perform a briefcase three or four times. me and it's I mean it yeah it's like what is happening when you walk down and you put it on the on the stool and it goes and everyone's like what what's happening here like what is in that briefcase and I mean and it that is an excellent

I mean Steve Negus is an excellent in my humble opinion excellent drummer I mean really unbelievable and that whole that whole column response back and forth is amazing yeah so it's it was fun there was a lot of fun well you always looked like you were having fun doing it you always looked like you were having a lot of fun doing it so i think i was having i was having more fun watching the reaction to people like looking out and people like what like me going what is in the briefcase yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah um you mentioned something sort of dial back to to to the name saga and the chapters which of course i have consumed over and over and over again, be like, what does it mean? What's going on? What? So I have two, kind of a two-prong

question. One, you know, the first nine or, the first eight are written and then the second set are written almost 20 years apart. If I've got my math right, which is not my strong suit. But how did you come up with that? Did you build around the chapters? Did you write the chapters as you were going and say, this would go well here, this will go well here? Because this is a big, story. It was more of the latter. It was as we went. You know the beginning, you know the end. And then it was like a jigsaw puzzle. And, you know, say the third album, we need a couple of chapters. And we would be writing the music. And then invariably one would just tell us. Yeah. I am the next chapter. Yeah. Because, I mean, you start playing, you know,

musically working on something like, don't be late. It's like, oh, this is obviously a chapter. has got to be one of the shots and then it was a matter of okay the mood of the music is such that okay what would be happening in the story at what point this should be the music that explains that part um images was a logical choice for the beginning because that's how the the whole thing starts and then you start with the ballad and that but yeah it was it was really a musical jigsaw puzzle at that point like i said we knew how it was going to begin and how it was going to end without revealing everything because there are still plans to do something larger with it. Yeah.

People were discussing at one point, a stage production of it, perhaps an animated series. Wow. You know, something that explains everything with graphics and with the visual. But that aside, we always wanted it to be a bit of a jigsop puzzle. And also, if you think about it, we do the first album with a couple of things called chapters on them. And there's two, not even in order. Then the next one, then there's two more. So it almost, almost guaranteed we, well, if you're doing eight chapters, it almost

guarantees you're going to do at least four albums. So it was kind of an insurance policy. We got to finish at some point in terms of the chapters. So give us four albums. Yeah. So we've got to release at least four, okay? Yeah. Yeah.

But, yeah, and it just took on a life of its own. It did, because I remember when chapter. eight came out, I was like, I ran. I was like, I got to get, because at the beginning, there is all of the little snippets. And I'm like, are these the snippets to tell the story of all the chapters? And yeah, I mean, it really, it really did. And it's also, it's also been fun when we hit 16. Yeah. It's been listening and reading people's, it's like, oh, I finally figured out, this is what it is. And some of the explanations are completely, we're not completely wrong, but like, wow, interesting in their own right, but, you know, but whether they're wrong

or right, what was very cool about is they were so vested, vested enough to follow it and think to themselves, well, I think this is what's going on. So they were, it got people, you know, interested that way and got creatively thinking. So that's a compliment in itself, you know, that people were interested enough to try and, you know, figure out the stories. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think what attract me to the band consistently over time is, you know, I have a very rich inner world. If you, if you are somebody who knows me well, you know that I have a very rich inner world. And you, you as a band met me in that rich inner world.

Like it was never like you would just listen to a song, be like, well, that's a nice song. You know, it was always, it always felt textured. It always felt like there was this big, you know, story being told, be it through the layers of music, be it the lyrics, be it, the lyrics, be it. the vocals, I mean, it is a band for people, I think, with a really, really rich inner world. And that, I think, is why I've all, like, I'm like, if there are days that are a bit tough, I'm like, just pop some of that on, you'll be fine. And you go off into, you know, really, I mean, really, you know, during really tough times in my life where I'm like, I need to feel level.

I'm just going to put some song on. I've heard that so many times over the years. And it's a great compliment. You're just people saying, you got me through a rough time. I used this song to propose my wife or my brother was in the hospital and he was a big fan and one guy said his, I can't remember the relationship, but someone was in a coma and they kept playing song and music and ended up coming out of it. Now, whether we were, you know, the reason for him coming out of the coma or just part of the, the, the, um, aiding in that process, it was an, I mean, I mean, I, I, Imagine how it makes you feel. It's like, my God, you know, if that's true, that it meant that much, that it, you know.

And to hear these stories being shared, it's like, wow. You write some songs, you cross your fingers, you hope people like them. That's how it starts. Yeah. And then to have so many people not just enjoy listening, but are actually affected by it in a positive way. Yeah. It's a great compliment. It means more than the accolades and the money and the, you know, fame and all of that.

It's, that's much more satisfying at the end of the day. Yeah. Speaking of accolades, I have to kind of laugh, and I want to kind of get your take on this. You win a Juno for Most Promising Band, Four Albums in, if my math is correct. Yes, and it was, it was, it was, well, there are two things, A, the most promising band, thanks, you know, it looks like we think, well, I'm going to make it, you know, and it was, I believe the, the Juno Awards took place. while we were in the middle of a tour you were in europe in europe and sold out tour everywhere doing quite well yeah yeah and we got that news and i just found it funny yeah it was ironic you know i i mean still to this day you know we're known in canada

but we're still a bit like a like a well-kept secret to for the most part yeah i know yeah i know that ben didn't they do turn me loose no that was lover boy oh yeah uh you know the word loose is in there I bet you, I was thinking that just before we started this chat, Michael, that how many people confused Termi Loose by Lover Boy with On the Loose by Saga? I bet you that happens a lot. Only title-wise, but, yeah, obviously. We need a mash-up. You know, yeah. Mash-up.

But, yeah, it happens less than you might think, but it obviously has come up. This is a nice little gateway for me to ask how on the loose changes things for Saga because now you're a top 40 band, Michael. God forbid. Yeah, yeah. You are. Something we never wanted. Well, all that meant was a wider reach, obviously, a larger audience to listen to what we've been doing.

And then it forces, not forces, but invites people to go back and see how we got there. So it really opened. I mean, the album, Worlds Apart, just opened things up. to a whole other level for us, which was wonderful. Working with Rupert Heine, just, it was, I mean, for me personally, if you listen to, I made jokes about this as we were going to the reaction series with my son. Some of the early vocals, I mean, I was pretty green in terms of singing rock and roll, because like I said, I came out of a church choir background, and if you listen to them, I'm singing the songs,

pretty precisely and very concerned about doing it the right way and tonally and expression and all of that up until world's part and we went for our first sort of meeting with with rupert and and steve the engineer in the control room at farmyard studios in england And I remember sitting there, the five of us are sitting there on the couch and not just relaxing. And Rupert looked at us and was like, okay, let's, you know, talk about, you know, with their vision for the album, how he, you know, what he thinks and his input. So let's start with the drums, you know, Steve, da-da-da-da-da, this is what I hear, da-da-da-da-da, changing this, maybe enhancing this. You know, what's broke, what's not broke, or just his feelings on it. And then, you know, one-by-one keyboards and guitar and bass and left the vocals to the end.

And I sit in there and going, here it comes. And he's like, all right, Michael, let's talk about the vocals. And he said, just very simply said to me, it says, all right, here's the thing. We know you can sing. That's not the issue. What I want you to do now is forget everything you learned. And I thought, but you just said, what he meant was, you know, how to do it now just do it don't think about it just look at the lyric feel the lyric

tell the story just be and if you make a mistake that's the whole idea in the studio you can do it again um just but just go out just just feel the song just sing it don't think that it has to be perfectly right get more emotional with it and and from that moment on you'll hear a difference from Worlds Apart going forward, from the, decidedly, from the third album to Worlds Apart. There's a different vibe to the vocal, and it's directly as a result of Rupert's influence on the way I sing. And really, all he did was he deprogrammed me. This is essentially it. He said, we know you can do it.

Now forget all that you learned how to do that, because you've got that nailed. Now just do it. And that's when I was introduced to the idea of doing force. four takes from the beginning to the end. Just start the song, sing it all the way through. OK, now switch tracks. Now do it, now do it four times. And then just picking the best line from each,

which is not cheating, per se, because you're just, is studio, you're just trying to come up with the best performance possible. It goes with guitar solo sometimes, with bass parts or whatever. You'll play it all the way through. And that way you get a fresh performance each time, because you're not stopping the tape and then going,

Okay, and then dropping in with the vocal and trying to maintain the fluidity of the performance. So when on the loose hits the top 30 on the billboard charts in the United States, this is February 83, I think it peaks at number 26. That's your American breakthrough. So I'm curious, like, how important was that for Saga to break through in the United States of America? And what did that mean for the band going forward?

well i mean the obvious answer is it just it widened the audience the exposure the more and more people could you know hear what we were creating and and your audience suddenly goes from here to here it's um the the exposure alone it was crazy and then the timing of it um was was perfect because mtv was just beginning they were just about to launch we had been approached by management saying we'd like to do a video or a couple of videos we're going okay they're going to be music videos it's going to be kind of half story and half performance we're like what do you what what and so we shot the videos for a number of them but the first one being on the loose and it was in the can it was done it was ready to go and MTV came

along and they had a brand new, brand new medium and very little content. Guess who had a video ready to go? Right. Perfect timing. Perfect timing. And I mean, the record coming was like, yes. So, I mean, the amount of airplay we were getting from MTV combined with now your top 40 radio. And I remember that year, the launch of when on the loose came out, we did, I'm guessing five or six tours just back-to-back in the States. Pat Benatar, Eddie Money, Jesser Tull, it was just one after another. We just, the weirdest one, I'll just interject really quick,

the weirdest one we ever did, in terms of lineup, was we were sandwiched in between girls' school and Quiet Riot. And you've got this Canadian Neo-Frog band in between these two heavy methods. And I remember, the funny thing is, I remember the audience kind of going, you know, they kind of looked at, they weren't upset. They weren't like, oh, boo, this is up.

They were just really confused. They knew that there was, I think they knew that there was something good. They just had never heard anything like it. And they, of course, this is a metal audience. And they're like, you know, it's kind of heavy. But that was the strangest song we did. But, no, we just toured the Jesus out of that album that year.

And we were away from home a lot. Yeah. And you were rewarded. Sorry, Michael, go ahead. Yeah, we rewarded with the most promising group of the year, as we talked about earlier. There you go. Yay. So it was all worth it.

Finally. So worth it. That's wild. I have a weird pairing that you may have forgotten that you did. I want to say it was Massey Hall, 81 or 82 Brian Adams

opened for you and yeah and it was like what I mean Brian Adams wasn't Brian Adams as we know him

but he was just starting out it was the very first album that was a kind of a weird opening act I have to say

when I'm like music yeah musically yeah I mean great can't yeah and I remember

who's this a little upstart this young kid thinks he knows And he came out, but I do, in retrospect, I do remember he came out with tremendous confidence. He just knew. And I think in the back of my mind, I said, the kid's going to be a star.

Because he just had, like I say, just oozing with confidence, well-written, you know, rock-pop songs. And I just thought, yeah, this is going to work. You know, as a support for a band like ours, probably, you know, it's a bit of a mismatch, but that happens all the time. But I do remember thinking, yeah, this kid's got it. yeah so you know we talk a lot about the old days which are you know phenomenal um and people would know you best for in some circumstances as saga continues on you know 50 years coming up you know what you know what was the what was the view what was the you know you were hoping four albums because you had you had eight chapters what was it kind of when you realized okay

it's a long this is a long haul where how do we see this going um Probably when it really hit, I mean the longevity factor, the 20th anniversary. It's like, how did we get here? 20 years, it's like, where did the time go? I mean, then three, you know, add a couple more decades on top of that. Yeah, I think it was around the 20th when we were really starting to feel the longevity factor. It was like, wow, you know, that's when it really sunk in. Yeah, because like I said earlier in the conversation, I mean,

you get together with a bunch of guys get together that you write a bunch of songs you record them you put them out there you cross your fingers you hope somebody likes them you hope somebody likes them enough that you can do another album then perhaps another um if you can stay together five years that's you know that's huge yeah to have the to be blessed with with enough support and and people uh enjoying what you do yeah to sustain that and and i mean look at me i've been able to sing make a living from doing what i love doing for you know almost 50 well more than 50 years because of a couple of bands before saga but if all that time i've been able to you know do what i do and sustain and put a roof over the family's head and feed the family and and and it's

it's crazy to think about it um you know because you sometimes you'll speak to someone to say well someone's very successful doing whatever they do uh so uh you know you you've done very well for yourself Is this what you always wanted to? Well, no, actually, it's like Monty Python. I always wanted to be a lumberjack. I actually always wanted to be a rock star. You know, it's like, or I always wanted to do that. I always wanted to be a high wire artist in the circus, or I always want to do that.

I'm doing what I want to do. I always want to do. And I'm getting paid for it. It's like, you know, I sometimes feel not guilty, but it's a lot of hard. make no mistake and a lot of, you know, ups and downs. It's been some pretty trying times through the years. Yeah. But yeah, yeah, longevity.

It's funny. I think it was Pete Agnew from Nazareth once said a few years ago in an interview that you stay together long enough, you know, first you're up and coming, then you're promising. Then you become the classic rock band. And then it's, then you start bordering on dinosaur. And if you can, if you can, if you can, if you can muster yourself, muster it through the dinosaur phage, then you become legendary.

Yeah. So as long as you can get through, get past the dinosaur part. I agree. I read that. I just, I thought that was hilarious. And it's true. Yeah. So, you know, in the time that you, you know, that the band had been in, in various iterations,

you took a bit of time off. And Rob Maratti came in and did an album. And what are your thoughts on that, or is it not something you're like, I don't know, I wasn't there, wasn't part of the... Yeah, I don't talk about that. Can we move on? Yep, no, totally fine. It's very bitter about that. Just kidding.

No, it's, it's, it's, what I did was it was the 30, it was exactly 30 years. Right. And I thought to myself, at that time, I thought, you know what, it's been a great run. I want to focus on family now. I had always wanted to have a biological child of my own. I have a daughter, a stepdaughter, Jessica. But my wife and I, Gwen and I just went, you know, it's time. You put in your dues, 30 years is a long time.

You talk about longevity. 30 is a big number. And I just said, guys, you know, it's a personal reason. It's a life choice. That's what I want to do. Everything was fine. It's like, okay, well, you know, we're going to move forward. I said, that's absolutely fine, you know.

they found Rob. And I remember at the time, they did the album, but before I had a chance to hear the album, they played a show in Barry, I believe, at the theater, old theater up there. And I was in Canada at the time, or I went up, no, I went up there specifically because I wanted to see this guy singing my song. yeah someone else singing my songs so i went up to the gig i didn't tell the guys i was coming up there and i went into the venue i got a baseball cap on and i was like this nice i sat in the back and i and i waited and it was the most surreal experience i've ever had in my life yeah they came out they started the show he came on he started singing i'm just like wow it's like

twilight zone time i couldn't i couldn't i couldn't stay um i think i i got through two two and a half songs and i just it was just and it wasn't it wasn't him and it wasn't anything to do with with the performance itself it was just the the the it didn't compute and just i was like uh i had to leave yeah um if you ask me about the that album i think it's a very very strong album and he's a great vocalist yeah he he but he's he's not me uh no and and it's good that they didn't get someone that sounded exactly like yeah um he's a good great AOR singer. I don't know. I think he took some flag for not fitting in in that sense. But I mean, that's unfair criticism because you're talking about replacing someone who's been

the voice for 30 years at that point. So anybody is going to be different. I mean, I think I mentioned at one time you might think about getting a female both of us just to, like Lincoln Park did, for example. Then you take away any chance of comparison whatsoever. But anyway, it's suffice to say I think he was unfairly criticized, especially for, he took some flag from the Europeans for his live performances. Again, that's not fair either. It took me decades to get used to what I do on stage and be an entertainer, not just a singer. And he had very little experience from a light point of view. So he walked into these huge shoes to fill. Yeah, again, someone who's been there for 30 years. So hats off to him for, you know, taking the reins and doing a great job

with it. But I just, I feel bad that he took some of the heat that he did. Yeah. It is a strong album. I mean, I do. I do. I agree. It's like, okay, no, it's not you, but once you get over that and you go, no, it's not Michael, it's Rob. Let's listen to it. It is, it's a really, really strong album. Yeah. If you listen to it objectively from that point, it's absolutely very, very strong album. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. And then in January 2011, the return of Michael Sadler as lead singer of Saga. Yeah, I think the first show we did was in Niagara Falls, Niagara Falls, USA, on an old vaudeville theater there.

That was the, yeah. Time to come back. Yeah, yeah. It was, it was, I remember coming to the first rehearsal after all that time. Yeah. And I didn't know what the guys would think because, I mean, you leave. And even though it, you know, it's no hard feelings. kind of thing and it's amiable you don't know for for sure if anybody's harboring any you know

resentment maybe or any whatever any negative feelings about what you know you leaving and the reason being and all of that you left us in the lurch that kind of thing so you don't know and i didn't know for sure so i just you know showed up thinking ready to take any you know side glances or whatever would happen and nothing happened at all in that regard i remember We started rehearsal, we hit the first song, I got all choked up, you know, because we did this, I'm going to sing in a song, I'd sung a million times, but it was suddenly different. It was fresh for some reason. And no, we didn't talk, it was like, you know, essentially a cliche of it like I'd never left. It was, you know, we'd like we'd had a two-week break or something, and it just fell back into place beautifully.

Yeah. Well, and it's not like, I mean, so Steve Niggis and Jim Gilmore went off. A little bit of work. So it's not like you hadn't had, you know, some people say it like, I'd like a moment. People have kind of come and go. And am I correct that Ian Crichton is the through line? The through line, the only person who did not leave the band. Am I correct on that?

Officially, officially you're right. Yeah, okay. Yeah. And I know you're all kind of, I know Jim Crichton, I'm talking like I know them because I've known them for almost 50 years. But, you know, Jim has taken some time off, and Jim Gilmore and Steve Nagas had done some, done some stuff. So, I mean, I think as the front person, you get to take a little time because you want to go and do some other stuff. So it was for purely, yeah, it was purely personal. And nothing to do with the musical differences or whatever they want to call it.

Yeah. None of that. It was just purely, you know, it's a family thing. This is what I want to do right now. And to be fair to you guys, I just, I'm going to step away, and I'm sure you'll be fine with it. Yeah. And they were. Yeah.

So it was time and no hard feelings and all of that, and it all worked out. But we've all had moments where we had to step back and just go, I've got to do this right now. Yeah. As one does in a 50-year career. Yes, adventure, whatever you want to call it. Yeah, career, I'll put it in air quotes. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's a career.

I mean, maybe not the same is selling digital stuff. Massive roller coaster. Massive. But did you have a company car, Michael? That's the question. You know, you were before you had an airplane. I got six helicopters. Yeah.

So, okay, so let me do this. Let me remind the listenership, again, Michael, who you've been amazing, Michael. You really have. I think we made, uh, This was your dream come true, right, President Janelle? Unexpected bucket list, literally found out on Saturday. Well, let me shout out the fact that on December 14th, we're recording on November 25th. So that's coming up.

So December 14th, there's a pop-up show. It is, of course, Michael Sadler on the Heineken stage. You know, we're Great Lakes Beer fans here, but we love the fact Heineken stage is helping to promote the music as well with great. FOTMs, like Ed Sousa, but on the Heineken stage in Mississauga, also, I'm told that you're available possibly for corporate

private bookings. How would people reach you if they say, hey, I want Michael Sadler to sing some of these Saugam. My birthday, my birthday party. Yeah. Like, how do we contact you? It's all Ed, Ed Sousa's got my covered. I just, you know, I said to him, we

were joking around a little bit about it, and I said, you know, there's no reason why people do it all the They do corporate gigs. They do... We saw a actually did a birthday party, believe it or not. We were contacted by this massive fan who lives in Florida. And he contacted the band and said, I'd love to get the guys to play at my birthday party.

We're like, okay, you know, how deep are your pockets? You know, we kind of... We didn't laugh it off. We thought, well, there's nobody he can afford it. I mean, we weren't going to charge like normal concerts. normal concert fee for a birthday party, essentially. But he came up with the dough. He said, yeah, I'll fly you down, hotels, and do-a-do.

And we did it. It was just, we flew into this gig. We did it for him and his, I think, 30, 40 people, and then flew home, and it was a blast. But I said to Ed, you know, there's no reason why, if it's just myself and Dave Barrett, and you should mention that about the gig, it's myself and David Barrett.

We've done this before, and it's a great pairing. We even do a rush song. Well done. Yeah. But I said to it at the time, if there's, you know, there's corporate people that the way I see it, there are guys that, like, say they were in high school, we're huge fans of the band. And again, the longevity factor comes in into play here where they're now in the corporate

world, say, and doing very, very well for themselves. but bucket list wise um we've either they've never seen us live or or they're just huge still huge fans now they're in a position to be able to do that to say i'd love to have them sing at the corporate or a get together or you know whatever but would never ask because they would they it may be a matter of oh well it'd be great but there's no way they would say yes or he would say yes right how do you know unless you ask because there's nothing there's there's no shame in doing it there's no in fact it's fun it's different and and I welcome it so I said to Ed you know hey writing some environments

we're not out of the question you know jokingly but seriously if if somebody wants me and David to do an acoustic thing the same thing we're going to be doing at the high-income stage for anything private just go through Ed just ask Ed it's worth asking we can always the worst that can happen is we'll say no but you don't know unless you ask And Ed's easy to talk to, but... 100%, 100%. I'm not going to lie to you and say that if I had that kind of money,

you would have been the band on my birthday party bucket list. I'd have been like, can I get Saga? Well, let's raise the funds for your 40th. When is that coming up? So let me tell you, Michael, I've changed the cameras, okay? You are now on the Zoom. You are now looking at Cousin' Jando, the new host of Toronto Mike. Yes, it's an honor.

I mean, I really, it's, you know, when you talk about, well, you know, we write a couple of songs, hope they stick, hope a couple of people like them, and it parleyes into a 50-year career, you are the mainstay. Ask anybody who's known me. They'll be, who's the band? Saga, it's always saga. Yeah, it's an honor. It's a real honor to get to talk with you, you know, hear all sorts of. of anecdotes.

I just have a couple of questions. Oh, okay. We've got to drive this month. We've got to let Michael go at some point. Two quick questions. Favorite song to play, your favorite song of sagas. That's it. That's the only question.

The favorite one to play? That's a two-part question? Either, yeah. Or if you only want to ask. It sounds like two questions to me, Cousin, Chano. Thank you. Thank you. Wow.

So, ah, you say that it's a tricky question because it's so subjective and it depends on how I'm feeling. Yeah. Okay, we'll go with album, okay, for, from a vocal point of view. Yeah. I'm, first of all, I'm my own worst critic. I usually hear things back and go, eh, and everyone else goes, sounds great, not go, whatever. overall I think behavior for me from a vocal performance being satisfied with a vocal performance is as close to being I won't I'm never a hundred percent

satisfied but as close to being happy with it yeah I was in a good place I think just just creatively and which which always contributes to a performance but in in general behavior, any of the songs I have. Yeah, it's a good album. But goodbye once upon a time is, for me, I love singing that song and I like listening to it, which is a good side. Michael, you were so gracious with your time,

and you made this woman's dreams come true. I really want to say thank you for doing this. My pleasure again. Thank you so much. May I mention a side project that didn't come up? Oh, my God, yes. I got involved, I was approached a few years ago, a couple of years ago now.

by a man named Biot Zimmerman, a Swiss artist. And he asked me if I would be interested in singing on his first album. Okay. And I said, well, like I said, everyone, I need to hear the material first because I don't want to just sing it just for the sake of it. I mean, I have to like it. Because if I just sing it, then I'm just doing it for the money and I've never wanted to do that.

And you're not going to get the best performance out of me unless I feel attached to it and I enjoy the music. So he sent me the stuff that he was working on, and I was like, I really, really liked it. And I said, okay. And I thought he just, you know, he meant, well, let's, you know, had me sing on a couple of songs, whatever. He wanted me to be the vocalist on the entire album.

And I said, it'd be my pleasure. You know, we worked it out. Even Ian ended up getting Todd Zirkeman on drums, so... Yeah, and it's funny, it progressed and progressed, and I got involved a little bit with the writing in the vocal lines and stuff like that, but for the most part, it's his album, and I just, I'm the vocalist, and the project is called Unicorn Umbrellas, and the album is called Every Picture Tells the Story. It's really good, from my opinion. And I will supply with the link for that as well as the gig on the 14th. But that's something to watch out. I'm very proud of it.

You're asking me about Saga songs that are my favorites to sing and that kind of thing. I really enjoyed singing this album. Oh, great. I like singing outside of my comfort songs, but that one. I like doing other side projects now. Right. I'm doing another one as we speak this afternoon. noon. I'm supposed to be singing, or I'm checking the vocals on a new song from a man named

Matt Sinner, a German artist who I've known for many years, and he approached me last week and said, I've got a brand new song. I'd like you to sing on it. I said, oh, sure. Great. You are busy. I like to stay busy. I like to sing. Yeah. Well, it's, like I said, it's been an honor. Thank you so much for your time. I mean, you have no idea. It's been my pleasure. Thank you. Anytime. And we'll see you on the 14th. Yes, you will see me on the 14th.

All right. Recording stopped. Michael, you're a sweetheart. Thanks so much for this. Thank you very much. My pleasure. I'll email you those links and you can attach them when you. Do you know when you're going to drop this?

Yeah, in like 15 minutes or less. Oh. Oh, really? Can you wait for the links before you do that? Yeah, I can wait for the links before I do that. Yes. Thank you, sir. I'll get the links to you, ASAP.

thank you for this thank you my pleasure thank you thanks guys lovely to meet you bye bye bye so cousin jano I'm still recording the episode okay I need to know

like it's a post postpartum here amazing amazing you know and I had a feeling that he was going to be great maybe he's been doing this for 50 years he was super great yeah I do this a lot

that man was I felt like he wanted maybe he was would have gone two hours with you, Cousin'Anne. Like, he really enjoyed it. Like, I could have asked him a million questions. And I was trying to be like, okay, I want to let him talk. But I'm like, what about this?

What about this? What about this? How did I feel? Because I want to let him talk, but I want to let you talk. Yeah, I know. Well, you just got to sit there. I'm here to record this. That's my job here.

So I'm going to just share this. You don't love this song. And I'm playing the back. And I'll bring it up so people will probably recognize it. Because I remember it from Top 40 Radio in the mid-80s. Yeah. It's a beautiful song. Is this the last saga hit?

Scratching the surface, I think, also hit the charts, and that's Jim Gilmore doing lead vocals on that. That, I think, was a surprise hit for them, but because Jim Gilmore does not sound like Michael Sadler. But, yeah, I mean, this song, it's a great song. It's just not, there are songs after this and songs before this that I just feel. But this is catchy, right?

Like, it's a bit of an earworm. Let me play it a bit here. I'm confused by the things that you do. I don't know. What do I know? I can't start. Thinking about you. I'm dedicating this to FOTM Hall of Famer, Mark Wiseblood from 1236, who has warm, fuzzy memories about hearing this song.

Yeah, I remember I heard him talking about it. Yeah. So can I read to you on her way? here and then we're going to do the outro. There are some lovely comments from FOTMs who heard your Toronto Maple Leafs. I'm wearing the Maple Leafs sweater. Your Toronto mic hosting debut with all that this, okay? Because you were the true host of this particular episode.

Okay. So in reverse chronological order, Dan Jay, great job, Janow. Oh, thank you. So glad you got this opportunity. Yeah. People are just happy for you. Yeah. It's, uh...

It's okay to cry, Jano. It's a lot. It's amazing. Do you want some Kleenex? I have it here. No, I'm good. I'm not really a cryer, but you got a little voice break. It's a lot. A little hitch in the voice. That's all I'm looking for. Yeah. And that he's so generous. You know, he didn't have to be generous. And I hoped he'd be generous. I thought he'd be generous.

Well, because we blindsided him with the fact, oh yeah, by the way, you're on Toronto Mike with Cousin Janow. Who knows everything about you? and you don't know her. Did you learn anything from the episode? Well, the thing about Germany, because that was a question I had, the Germany, Puerto Rico is like, how does that work? I didn't even know about Puerto Rico.

Huge, huge. And his explanation makes a lot of sense around musicality, around waltz, around classical music. Yeah, very thoughtful. Yeah, yeah. And I've got to get through the FOTMs on the live stream. Sorry, this is very important here. Jayho, who co-hosted episode.

Who's the woman doing backgrounds here? Do we know? I don't. You said you know everything about them. I do. Because this is not an album. I wonder if she's knowing, hey, we have time of somebody on the live stream. I feel like this is a job for Jeremy Hopkin, the official historian.

Who's doing background on what do I know by Saga here? I want to shout out. So he said, fun chat, great job, Jano and Mike. So I even got some partial credit there as well. Moose Grumpy says, What an interviewer. Great job, Janow. She never said that to me.

You're sweet. She never said that to me. I'll see you Saturday, I think. Yeah, Moose Grumpy will be there. Jeremy Hopkin will be there. I do not know about Dan Jay. He had some surgery, so I'm not sure. Leslie will be there, as you know, because she's going with you.

Yes. She says, Bravo to both of you. Thank you. La la la. And shout out to the VP of Sales, who's driving me to TMO. LX21, me and my assistant Morgan. He says, well done Chano. Thank you.

Who else? I don't want to miss anybody here. Who did I, who do I got here? Oh yeah. Hello to Hey Ref. He's the strong silent type. He just, you know, soaks it all in. Right. He's here, absolutely. And the mysterious WBN 1000, hello to you.

But I got to say, I thought you did a great job. You didn't seem nervous at all to me. No. I was more nervous than you. Yeah. Because I didn't want you to fuck it up. I know as much about them as they know about them because I've been following them forever.

I got the answer from Jay Ho. Yeah. The background vocals on the saga song, What do I know? Catch is. Heck. We're performed by British R&B singer Sharon Benson. There you go.

She was a guest vocalist on the track. Sharon. She did a great job. She's going to be our next guest on Toronto Mike. No, I kid. All right, Cousin Janow. we're going to take a photo by Toronto Tree even though

you're not, you know, I can't promote it. That photo, I want to attach that photo to the permalink for this episode. So you and I by Toronto Tree. Okay. And I'll see you Saturday. Yes. And thank you for like, I do not think I would have pursued this gentleman

because it's a bit of a blind spot, even though I know a couple of songs from the radio. Yeah. On the loose, for example. A bit of a blind spot. The Prague Rocky thing. I'm not sure it was my cup of tea. But I saw that he was coming to the Heineken stage. I reached out to FOTM Ed Sousa. I could he split the barber trick.

We got Michael on the show and I said, I'm not doing this without Cousin'Anne. So I want to say thank you for like inspiring me to book what I believe to be a great guest. Great guest. And for making it a great episode because I only know enough to be dangerous about this band, but you know it all. So thank you. Thank you.

Who's next on your hit list that I need to get? Well, you know, Jim Gilmore, but, you know, you only get one, if you can only get one Saga member, then it'll... Well, I can, is this gentleman alive? Jim Gilmore, yeah. Then it's possible. I can make that happen. I'll work on Jim Gilmore, and then I'll work on Doug Gilmore.

You can do that, too. I might get them on together. Perfect. And that brings us to the end of our 1,805th show. go to Torontomike.com for all your Toronto mic needs. Get your butts to Palma's. What's it called again? Palma pasta's,

Palma's kitchen location. That's on Saturday, noon to three. Be there for TMLX21. Much love to all who made this possible. That's retro festive, Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, Nick Iienes,

kindling, Recycle My Electronics.ca, Blue Sky Agency, and Ridley Funeral Home. My next episode is tomorrow. live in the basement studio. His name is Oren Weisfeld. He wrote a book about Canadian basketball

and we're going to count down the top 10 Canadian basketball players of all time. Take a guess at your top 10. You can compare the notes. That's tomorrow. See you all. Then. Thank you.