Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Michele Geister on RapCity on MuchMusic: Toronto Mike'd Podcast Episode 1653

Episode Date: March 18, 2025

In this 1653rd episode of Toronto Mike'd, Mike chats with Michele Geister about her time at MuchMusic creating RapCity. Toronto Mike'd is proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, Ridley Funeral Home, and RecycleMyElectronics.ca. If you would like to support the show, we do have partner opportunities available. Please email Toronto Mike at [e-mail]

The revolution will not be televised, will not be televised, will not be televised, will not be televised The revolution will be no rerun brothers, the revolution will be live Welcome to episode 1653 of Toronto Miked, proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, a fiercely independent craft brewery who believes in supporting communities, good times and brewing amazing beer. Order online for free local home delivery in the GTA. Palma Pasta, enjoy the taste of fresh, homemade Italian pasta and entrees from Palma Pasta in Mississauga and Oakville. Recyclemyelectronics.ca committing to our planet's future means properly recycling our electronics of the past. Building Toronto Skyline a podcast and book from Nick Aynes, sponsored by Fusion Corp

Construction Management Inc. and Ridley Funeral Home, pillars of the community since 1921. Joining me today, making her Toronto mic debut is the creator of Rap City, Unmuch Music, it's Michelle Geister. Welcome, Michelle. Hey, Mike. Thank you so much for having me. Greetings and salutations. And so cool to finally make this link with you.

Yeah, I'm really jazzed about this convo. I had over, now we're going back a few years, but I had Michael Williams here in the basement, we were chatting and we were talking about you and I think I reached out. I'm pretty sure I found you and I'm like I invited you on and you were in Jamaica. Where do I find you today? Well, I literally just arrived from Jamaica, but Jamaica is my home base. But I'm in the Toronto area currently because we're remembering Rap City, the legacy of Canadian hip hop this Saturday at the AGO.

So that's Saturday, March 22nd, if you're listening in the future, 2025, 1 to 4pm, Rap City, the legacy of Canadian hip-hop television and here you are in my city your former city and we're still you know doing this remotely I couldn't get you in the basement you got a busy schedule yeah I apologize because I know the vibes would have been sweet to be there with you. I have to say that I became aware of Toronto Mike because you did a podcast with one of my mentors by the name of Carleton Ridenhauer, a.k.a Chuck D. and one of my colleagues from the Chum City Much Music and even freelance music video days, Joel Goldberg, he said, oh, your name got mentioned.

I need you to hear this. So yeah, that was how I became aware of your podcast all the way back in Jamaica. And it's great, you know, six degrees of separation really, right? Well, shout out to Jay Gold, okay, who created Electric Circus at Much Music, and a dear friend of the program. He also, and this will come up later because we're going to

talk about RAP City. I got a bunch of questions as you can imagine, but he also directed those early Maestro Fresh West videos. Yeah, and the DreamWorks. I worked on DreamWorks with him. Mishimi, I worked on Mishimi with him. We had a few, we had a few crossovers there. Well, I'm going to, I'm going to love this conversation, but back to Chuck D, just for a moment that even to this day, if you go to torontomike.com and you click guests at the top and you get the list of guests, you'll be added there later today. I got the picture I have there to show guests of Toronto Mike is Chuck

D and I because man and we'll, this will come up again later, but I loved, I love Public Enemy, one of my favorite bands of any genre of all time. And to speak with Chuck D in person was like just a mindow dream come true? Well, I can very much relate. I mean, I was very privileged to get to interview him multiple times. And even more recently, during the 50th anniversary of hip-hop, an article was written about me. And I reached out and got to be in touch with Chuck and he gave us a quote for a Music Works article. And yeah, what a privilege to get to speak with him and really, you know, really gain some knowledge from him over the years.

So very grateful for that. And you know, I'm also grateful that he always continues to, you know, give me respect for the work that I did in promoting hip hop. That's what I loved about, you know, they only gave me 20 minutes with Chuck D. But, you know, you'll take 20 minutes of Chuck D over no time with Chuck D. Right. So, but the names he dropped, I'm thinking Errol Nazareth yourself and just talking about, you know, DJ Ron Nelson and just talking about these early days of hip hop. Like I just thought it was awesome.

He knew the names, he knew he knew the scene, you know, he dropped some small town Ontario names. I can't remember. Did he Kitchener, Waterloo? I can't remember. He dropped a whole bunch of interesting. Yeah, I actually have footage of and you know, a lot of these things are on YouTube. I actually grabbed a camera and went on the road with them to my hometown, which is Kitchener,

Waterloo, and, uh, went to their first show there. And it was incredible. The wonderful and long-time promoter Gary Stewart who worked with the University of Waterloo and then went on to do his own projects. He had his own club, All Ages Club. He actually was a big hip-hop fan and he brought the early tours including Public Enemy, Ice Tea and the Rhyme Syndicate. So of course I had to go to my hometown and check that out. So Michelle, how does a young woman from Kitchener Waterloo end up at Much Music? Could you help me with that path, getting you in the doors at 299 Queen Street West? Sure. You may have to edit me at some point because it's a bit of a long story.

But I started doing television when I was in high school in six, about 16 years old. And we had a teacher, Lynn Myers was his name. He was involved with community television in Kitchener and he got a group of students together. I was a group. Kitchener and he got a group of students together. I was like a jock and a drama nerd. So I was a combination of things, right? But I was very interested in this television thing. We went, we got trained, we ended up doing a television show and it was myself and some female friends and then some of our classmates who were male. And it was funny because the guys wanted to do like a Monty Python series, and we wanted

to do 60 minutes hardcore journalism. Anyway, we got trained and I was the only one who stuck with it, volunteering, learning all the aspects of television, and eventually ended up working for the station music television was kind of just starting to come out with the new music which was a very influential program in my life and i think i want to do this i want to do this. So by the time i was in college i did different summer jobs with community television honing my directing and editing and producing skills. But by the time I was in college and I stayed in Kitchener to go to college, I was producing my own music television program called Video Synchrosies. And I would be going out and here's another six degrees of separation. While I was at college, my first music interview where I, and I saw the clip the other day because somebody digitized my old beta cam reels from college days.

My first interview was the spoons and I saw that you had Rob on the other day. He was here. Uh, was it? Oh my God. Was it yesterday? Yeah. It was, he was here yesterday. Yeah.

So when I saw that, I thought, Oh my goodness, because these tapes have just come back into the light and me there and what had happened, it was someone else's student assignment. But because I worked at community television and I had access to the equipment, I was very popular. My college didn't have a lot of equipment. There was one camera, one editing suite for 75 students, but I worked somewhere where I had all the toys and pretty nice quality toys. So anyway, I ended up doing this interview with the Spoons and went back, stayed up all night because of

course, you know, the deadline was the next day and did my first kind of music television piece. So I continued further on in college to have my own show, Video Synchrosy. That Spoons interview kind of lit my fire. And I wrote my thesis about music television for college. Along the way, I've had challenges. My course director at one point pulled me into his office because they were very old school broadcasting. I went to Conestoga College and he said to me, you know, we're very concerned about you. We don't understand this music television thing and we're worried you're on drugs. So it was a great affront to my sensibility because I was a very good student and I was

killing it with my film production classes and I was doing all this hands-on stuff. Anyway, in protest, I didn't go to his class. He was a radio teacher, a radio announcer. So I ended up doing my three-year college program in four years because they insisted that I do that class. Only I had known maybe I could have taken it somewhere. Anyway, eventually I graduated. I moved with a bunch of friends to Toronto and I was determined I was going to work at MuchMusic, if by any means necessary, right? We landed, about eight of us, nine of us, in a three-story Victorian house about three blocks from the epicenter of Canadian hip-hop's birth at CKLN, the Fantastic Voyage,

and a couple of blocks south was Much Music City TV at 99 Queen Street East. So I started there and I did other jobs in the meantime while I kept trying to get my foot in the door at Much Music and eventually one of my hometown neighbors and also course mates for college, she got into Much First and she called me one day and I've been doing other freelance projects, film projects as a PA mostly. And she called me, she said, oh, we're looking for a technician. I know you want to, I know this is what you want to do. And I went and interviewed with the late great Dana Lee, who was the technical supervisor, went on to head Ryerson, aka TMU's RTA program at one point. And he hired me. And he said to

me, you are the first technical person I ever hired for master control, who had a demo tape, because I had been shooting bands and compiling stuff for a pretty long time at that point. So I started in master control at Much Music on 99 Queen Street East. What year is this, Michelle? I started in 1985 dating myself. No, you're not just that we know because I did a we just had an anniversary and I did a full episode with Ed Conroy from Retro Ontario where we went deep into the origin story of Much Music but we know Much Music launches in 84. So you're absolutely 99 Queen Street East. You're a pioneer over there at Mudge Music.

So I got to ask you, so because I mentioned off the top that it was, you came up in the Michael Williams conversation and Michael Williams was at Soul in the City. So you're now in the doors at 99 Queen Street East. How do you become involved with Soul in the City? So what happened, you know, here I am, I have this technical position and I'm very, you know, I trained to know all the technical stuff as I mentioned in community television. I had done master control as a part-time job for years, so you know, I had the skills, but I also had been

doing production for years and I started volunteering my services. So Joni Daniels, who was a director at Much Music, was producing two very cool early features called Fashion Notes and Indie Street for Erika M. And I asked Joni if she needed any help. And she turned over the editing and the post-production of those features to me. So I'm doing my long, you know, 12 hour job shift. And then in my spare time,

I'm posting these weekly shows for her. Much music master control in that very small studio was kind of a sliding glass door away from the production studio. And at that point, music plus the French service started broadcasting out of that studio. And it was an 8 p.m. to midnight shift. And then maybe you did some pre-production in the studio. and then maybe you did some pre-production in the studio. I was rescued finally from master control by this incredible director, Rob Delageronte,

who had them move me to be on his crew. So I became a live videotape operator for the Music Plus crew. In the meantime, I had met Michael Williams because he was DJing. He was doing the Much show. You're kind of just off to the side of the Much studios. And, you know, we got talking.

As Michael said, we found out we both had crazy eclectic taste in music. I had already been DJing and before that spent a lot of time, you know, going out and I was always that annoying person who carried their own vinyl to the club and begged the DJ to play it. So Michael had put together, he was trying to work with an official, much producer on his radio show concept that he wanted to turn into soul in the city. And the producer had put together a playlist,

a program list of music. And Michael wasn't happy with it. And he showed me and it pretty much was a pop music list. And it had a common denominator that there were black artists in it, but it wasn't really soul. It was pop. And as somebody very invested in music, all the genres, I was attuned to what he wanted. So I said, well, let me do it. So I commandeered my wonderful director, Robert De La Durante, who was pushing the rudimentary equipment we had at the time

to do all kinds of amazing graphics and I actually co-created Soul in the City with Michael. I did all the production work and producing and editing and directing and writing behind Soul in the City. Michelle do you think you're getting you know your do flowers on Soul in the City front because whenever I read about it I read you know of course you're editing you you think you're getting, you know, your due flowers on Soul on the City Front? Because whenever I read about it, I read, you know, of course you're editing, you're producing, you're directing, but you don't get that co-creator credit for Soul in the City. Interesting, isn't it?

It's interesting because, you know, I left Canada, I moved away almost 30 years ago. It'll be 30 years next month, I mean next year. And it's almost like there's erasure of things. And to the point that I've seen people, like I've seen resumes posted online where people have claimed my credits, but I wasn't here. I wasn't in this space. And I guess, you know, time passes on,

people forget. And the star system that existed at MuchMusic, those of us who were behind the camera, we often didn't get, you know, the exposure. But those who were there would know and certainly Michael knows Namageddy wrote a beautiful article in 2017 and that was the beginning of my story kind of coming to light because she wrote and shared what had happened. But all credit to Michael that Soul in the City began as his radio show in Montreal. But it took my production skills and know-how and as well as my musical taste to add to the mix to actually create the program. And let the record show forevermore. You are a co-creator of Soul in the City. Thank you. Yeah, I mean, it's never too late to, you know, set the record straight on these things,

because we're going to get to a show where you are credited as creator. And it is just interesting to note that you don't receive that similar credit for Soul in the City, although you are often credited as a director, producer, editor. I know. Now that I've been back to Canada a lot more and interacting, I am trying to set the record straight in other ways. I know there's an academic who wrote something and I was a little

annoyed because it said I was a helper. I helped. And I have to say this part too that I left out. When I started Soul in the City, it was as a volunteer. So I still was working 40 hours a week for Music Plus, but then I was doing a full on national television show at a very high and Soul in the City was the first specialty show produced at Much Music because we kind of found out, oh, well, when Much Music Plus goes off the air, so Much music went off the air at 8 we switched over to music pluse and then music pluse finished at midnight we realized oh here's a little bit of production time to play on the toys and make some cool TV and and then everybody followed but we were the first ones to actually do that and I have to you, because I had a 40 hour a week job I

was getting a paycheck for and doing this television show within five months of working for MuchMusic, I have to add, I knew every place to crash and have a nap in that studio. So when we moved to 299 for a long time, I'd catch a few a few Z's on Ziggy's couch. If you remember the couch for Ziggy show. Of course. Do I remember the couch for Ziggy show? Of course, of course, of course. Love Ziggy Lawrence too. Yes, I know. And I saw that she's on the list of guests that you've had. Well, it's funny because she's been over a couple of times, but both times her personal driver was the aforementioned Joel Goldberg. Well, that makes a lot of sense. I get that. I mean, I think there's some very long term relationships that were formed with the whole chum city family, I would say. Well, Joel still works with Moses. Yeah, yes he does.

He does in fact. Shout out to the Zoomerplex. Okay, so so much ground here. Okay, because can you share with me, do you have a relationship to this day with Michael Williams? Um, we, we have been in touch, not so much recently. I, you know, I always try to make sure that he gets his respect. I recently made sure that he was to be included in the project t dot exhibition. And I know that a Janney Charles recently did his photo shoot, I saw

it on his socials. So I had recommended that. So, so yeah, always looking out for Michael. Good. He's actually always been tight with the spoons. Speaking of the spoons. So I know I noticed. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah. No, you go ahead. Because I was just going to play to that. I've seen the spoons in the last, you know, 20 years and Michael Williams was like a part of it, like almost like a, like the introduction, introduction would be by Michael Williams. He might do some DJing before the gig. Like he's tight with the spoons people.

Very cool. Very cool. I, um, I wasn't fully aware of that, but that makes sense. Michael's always been this incredible, incredible musicologist and, uh, you know, his love of music has no barriers. So he's he loves everything. So yeah, what a great person to have in your corner if you are an artist. Yeah, well spoken guy, interesting guy. And sounds like you collaborated on Soul in the City. But now I must segue us over to another show that was very important to yours truly, recording it to VHS. And I'm hoping you'll give me in great detail the origin story of Rap City. Can you see it? Let me flip screens over. Okay, okay.

So while I look at that, I'm going to play a song. So I'm going to be looking at that and I'm going to play this song. I love that so much. I can see the opening theme right now in my head as I look at that graphic there. Yeah, it's pretty cool. Shout out to retro kids who did t-shirts a couple years ago. And of course, being, I don't know, the wannabe fashionista that I am, I took this t-shirt, I had it cut out, added to a sweatshirt, and then had my friend added more graphics to it. rootsrhymescollective.com Rap City forever. Absolutely. Rap City. So, okay, you're going

to give me the origin story, but I'm going to ask you right off the top. Was BET already, did they already have the show called Rap City when you launched Rap City? No, no, it was kind of in tandem unknowingly. Like parallel thoughts. I want to say, I want to say, Mike, I don't want to give away everything because I want people to come out to the event, to the AGO. So I might have to say safe word, but I'm

going to share what is already public knowledge. We started with Soul in the City giving coverage to many genres of black music. And it just so happened that rap music was exploding in that time frame. And it started to, it really started to eat up our time. Cause if you think about it, we only had one hour a week that was specialized curated programming for black music. So there were, there was a lot of petitioning and pleading to the powers, John Martin specifically that we needed a rap music show. So in 1987, we I was very privileged. It was my first New York shoot. And I went solo

with cameraman at the time, oh shoot, now I'm gonna forget, is Gord McWaters. He went on to do a lot of the beautiful promotional work for Citi and Much Music, but he was a studio cameraman at the time, and Gord was assigned to be my cameraman, and I went to cover a Jive Records release party for DJ Jazzy Jeff and the Fresh Prince. So we went to New York and spent the whole day, I can remember like I can't sleep when I'm gonna travel, we

had to be at the airport at four o'clock in the morning. We had to clear our equipment. And then we did the rounds all over New York to independent labels to do interviews all day, no lunch, no dinner, then straight like I'm sure Gordon wanted to kill me straight to the party that had everybody at this party, in addition to Jazzy Jeff and Will Smith, and then left that party, went to interview Curtis Blow at the hotel, Gramercy Park, and then finally after that we got food.

Like I starved the poor cameraman for the whole day. And then this was my greatest, one of my greatest regrets. Curtis asked us if we wanted to go clubbing. And I was just falling down. Like, I was exhausted. Like, if people know to concentrate and do production and be super focused on interviews and all of that for probably, I don't know how long we had been at it, 16 hours for the day. Like, and having not slept, I just, I couldn't go.

I was falling asleep in that huge, huge regret that I didn't do that. Yeah. You only live once, Michelle. Pardon me? You only live once Michelle Pardon me. You only live once I know that and I have been you know a Queen of getting out and clubbing and staying up on night. Some of my fondest Toronto memories are Leaving places like the Twilight Zone when the Sun is rising, right? So I'm no stranger, but it just Yeah, I I guess I we didn't have Red Bull in those days.

You're out of gas. Like if your tank's empty, what are you going to do? Right? You got a refill. Yeah. Yeah. But that was an incredible day. So we got, we gathered all this content. So we had interviewed Tommy Boy Records, Tom Silverman. We had interviewed Bill Adler of Def Jam Records. We had been to Sleeping Bag, which was an incredible underground label. And we had done all this work, got back and did little features with that on Soul in the City. Now Now 1987 was also an incredible year in Toronto for live music shows thanks to Ron Nelson, the godfather of Canadian hip-hop. So as everyone knows he evolved from doing his radio show to becoming a promoter. So we began giving coverage to Ron's events. And the first event that I went to shoot with Ron

was a battle that had Boogie Down Productions, Biz Marquee, and when I say Boogie Down Productions, including Scott LaRock, this was more Scott LaRock past. And what I did is I somehow got the new music to come and cover it, but I was the field producer. So I was the one running around taking care of all the details. And you can see that video still lives in certain places on YouTube. And it was fantastic that Ron brought the shows in that year besides

the BDP. There was Big Daddy Kane. There was Eric B and Rakeem. There was Public Enemy. There was Salt and Pepper. Like I asked him more recently said, how did you do this? He goes, I just did it. I just did it, you know?

So we were gathering this content still and doing stories on soul. And in early 1988, I did a soul in the city rap music one hour special and that it showed it proved it was really a proof of concept about the music and the love that was out there for the music and the fact that the music yes this is a art form, but it isn't just a black audience that's listening to the music. And not long after that, I got the go-ahead to John Martin, called me into his office and said,

"'Yes, you can start working on a hip hop show, "'on a rap show,' "'cause we didn't say hip hop so regularly. "'You can start working on a hip-hop show, on a rap show, because we didn't use, we didn't say hip-hop so regularly. You can start working on a rap show, come back to me with a list of names. So one night after my DJ gig at the Tasmanian Ballroom, I played downstairs and in the, what did you call it, the cave dance floor downstairs. Shout out to David Prentice for believing in my musical taste. I got together with some hip hophead friends and we brainstormed names. I took the list to John and he liked Rap City, but he said, oh, we're going to spell it as one word the way the new music was spelt as one word, the way that much music was spelt as one word the way the new music was spelt as one word the way that much

music was spelt as one word so a little while later one of those same friends who had helped with the names called me or we got together and they're like I just heard that this place BT is doing a show called Rapsody and I was a little flustered and I went back to John. He goes, it doesn't matter. He goes, ours is spelled different anyway. And we continued. And it's probably a good idea

because I think we might've been, Michael Hayden might've been a bit advanced at that point with the starting the work on the montage that he commissioned runt to make the artwork for that old school cell animation montage. And you know, it's a different country. We know that more than ever these days. But I know that when the edge launched, when CFNY became the Edge in Toronto 102.1, they basically just took all that, the name and everything from an American radio station because that

name rights didn't cross the border. Like, I feel like you guys were okay. And I like the stylized rap city with a capital C, one word, because it is in the same guise as Much Music, which is one word with a capital M. And you mentioned new music. Shout out to JD Roberts and Jeannie Becker. Oh gosh. Yes, yes. My hero. Okay. So, and I, gosh, Michelle, so many, like, as I listen to you talk about the rap city origin story, I need to ask you about FOTM means friend of Toronto Mike. You are

now finally an FOTM? So welcome to the family Thank you. Thank you fellow FOTM Who I just adore been over here several times and I need to ask you about right now because you kind of alluded to her And then I feel like we didn't quite get you know the to the story, but one of these Rap City hour specials that was part of the Soul and the City series that you're talking about, these rap battles with, you know, Boogie Down Productions and Scott LaRock and everybody. This is where Mishimi is discovered by DJ Scott LaRock, right?

Yes, it is. Yes, it is. Okay. I need that story because we often do a little trivia on this show or go, you know, who's the, you know, the story of Maestro Fresh West getting that deal because he's on Electric Circus and then Stevie B sees him perform and you know, Michael Williams is involved, but it depends who you ask exactly who, you know, how he gets in touch, but he gets a US record deal. But before Maestro Fresh West had a US record deal, Missy Mee had a deal. She's the first Canadian hip hop artist to secure a US record deal, right?

She is. And I want to tell you my role. Yeah, that's, that's what I'm teasing here. Let's get the Michelle Geister role in this. So I, you know, I really recognized the art and just the energy and the culture and the purpose behind our early artists. And you know, Ivan Berry was very instrumental with Beat Factory. He was professional. He was pushing his artists and we got to know each other. I was at that battle where Michi performed and I'd have to look back to remember the female but she killed it. She killed it when she broke into her patois and stuff. And you know, I even have to go deeper than that because I was speaking with me.

She a while back and you know, she's working on a memoir and she said, you know, Michelle, a lot of people always say, well, you know, you were there. You were alone. You were just this alone, you know, female out there and she goes but Michelle I wasn't alone you were there and I was there I got to go well and back to the record deal story first Ivan had said that they were First priority was interested in signing them me Me she me I'm sorry MC lights label as well as audio to label.

They were very interested in me she they had been they were coming to do a session at wells Lee sound I believe and Ivan asked me if I could do some coverage of that and I did come out and I ended up packaging a feature that I spent a little bit more time than I usually have on. And first priority, use that feature to go to Atlantic Records when they were looking to make sure that Michi would also get distribution, not just be signed to the independent, but be able to have distribution. So I put a really beautiful package together highlighting Mishi. And that exists as well. I've seen that kicking around on YouTube as well.

But then I ended up going, my first trip ever to Jamaica, where I now reside and have where I raised my children was to Kingston with me she to record her debut album. So yeah, okay. This is there on the way. So you played a that's a key role I would argue in securing missy be her first record deal. I believe so as well. Okay, we agree on this. Okay, this is a bit of a fun fact. The last time I saw Mishimi, it was not in the basement here. It was at the Art Gallery of Ontario.

So she performed at the Art Gallery and that's another excuse for me to let the listenership know not that we're wrapping up quite yet, Michelle. I got some more questions, but Remembering Rap City, the legacy of Canadian hip hop television is this Saturday, March 22nd from 1 to 4 p.m. at the Art Gallery of Ontario. So this is Roots Rhymes Collective and Art Gallery of Ontario celebrating the legacy of much music's groundbreaking and innovative hip hop television program,

Rap City. So are you going to be there for a conversation? Who's joining you? Yes, so this is very exciting. So as you know, Rap City endured for several decades. I mean, they brought it back. They couldn't stop the power of hip hop. So, uh, very exciting. Master T will be joining. Wow. Now McGeady is joining. Oliver Walters will be joining. Uh, uh, Tyrone Edwards will be joining as well, which is AKA T-Rex and Basil C. Young, who was one of my really main foundational

cameraman who I had a million adventures with back in those golden days of Canadian hip hop. He's an unsung hero because he's not often, he's not in front of the camera, but I talked to like, go ahead sorry talk about Basil for me because people who don't know Master T's brother is Basil Young because Master T is Tony Young and I'd love to hear a bit more about Basil he doesn't get his due credit Basil is an incredible cameraman the director of photography he is a long time employee of Cham and now you know that their assets are owned by Bell. He still is with Bell and he really helped shape the aesthetics with his eye and almost like a big brother to me

throughout the process. I have to say this I have to wonder if there was something in the water of Kitchener Waterloo because both the Young Brothers and myself spent some formational years in Kitchener Waterloo and then we all together, going to Jamaica, going to New York. I don't think I went to LA with him because there's also a lot of other people. We had a stable of great talented cameramen

who I was fortunate enough to work with over the years. And I wanna shout out everybody and anybody who's ever been a part of RAP City. There's a lot of them. Even my famous interns who started out with me, you may know them by the names Big C, Craig Mannix was my first intern. And following him was someone who is known today as Director X but he was

Little X in those days. I was going to ask you about Director X actually. So give me a little little bit of because because Director X big deal now but got his start with you. Yes, he did. Yes, he did. Yes, he did. I used to see him at shows and I have to say for the popularity of rap city at one point rap city became a five a weekday show. So Monday to Friday is half an hour and I was still producing soul in the city. Like it did become my job that

that was all I did. But at one point I was producing two and a half hours of television a week. And in terms of the pre-production staff, it was just me. And, and the thing that's so important to remember in my time in that, in those days, we did not have the internet. We did not have, internet we did not have we couldn't Google we like literally and and I and I thought of this recently too I had the most serious magazine habit because I had to know what was happening and be on top of the next thing but I never knew I could have expensed those

magazines like I might own Toronto real estate if I never knew I could have expensed those magazines. Like I might own Toronto Real Estate if I had known I could expense what I was buying for my research, right? Oh, that's funny. But famously, famously, because we cover it quite a bit, I have so many of your colleagues over here. And there was a you had a lot of freedom at 99 Queen Street East, then 299 Queen Street was a lot of freedom, creative freedom to try different things, but you didn't have a lot of money to spend.

Yeah. I mean, other shows that I saw other shows come that followed us that did get, you know, staffing and stuff. But maybe I guess because I could do it, I just kept, you know, being able to manage. And we did have to be creative to make things happen. And the freedom, I mean, there was so much freedom. I mean, to be someone who's hired as a technician and with within five weeks, but you had to have the skills to pay the bills. Of course, I've been there within five months and now I'm producing a national television program at 23 years of age, right? That was pretty incredible. But as long as you

were ready to do the work, I think that's really what mattered. And there was a great legacy to follow of people who had been doing the new music. They really set a high standard and that was always what I wanted to strive towards. And I think it was your program where Chuck D spoke about the fact that we curated and presented the music differently. And I think that really came from the roots

of the new music and the journalistic way of covering music. Instead of, it wasn't about just about celebrity or scandals, it was really about getting into the artistry, the messaging, And yeah, there was a lot of rock and roll still, but it went deep. We went deep. 100%. And that you're right to credit Toronto Mike for that disclosure from Chuck D. I think Chuck D does a lot of interviews. I don't think he does a lot of interviews about hip hop in Toronto. Like I feel like that was my that was my role. Yes thank

you for that because I feel I think it's coming out more but we were kind of under recognized that we had our own scene and we weren't clones like Toronto developed its own sound you know a lot of it thanks to the wonderfully creative West Indian community that we have. And of course, the whole culture going back to sound systems in Jamaica that really all connects to the evolution of hip hop culture as well. And now the legacy begins. Let me pepper you with some questions. And yes, you know where I'm going with that, but we'll get to that in a minute. But let me ask you about, you mentioned the name John Martin and I never got the pleasure of meeting John Martin, but I've talked to

so many people about him and I get, you know, some people have nothing but great things to say about him. And then there's people like Ziggy Lawrence, who had a less than awesome experience of John Martin. But can you tell me about your experience with John Martin, who is running MuchMusic? You know, I have to say that my interactions with John were very minimal. I think I probably only had one or two meetings with John in my entire career. Like I really was kind of given the keys to the kingdom just to go and do my thing. I think it kind of ruined me for life because I never really had this structure where there

was somebody overseeing and telling me what to do. I just got to do and I did it. So I'm very grateful for him and his vision and the opportunity to get to have done what I did. I recognize it really was a blessing to have been in the place at the time and just have the ability to pick up and start making television when there was a place for me to contribute.

We've already talked about Michael Williams, but let's just a few more words about Erika M. if you don't mind. I didn't work that closely with Erica. I worked with her producer, Joni Daniels. So really, although I did sit beside Erica, because you remember, our desks were in the environment. Michael and I shared a desk in the environment. Michael and I shared a desk in the environment. And I because oh boy again

back to it was just me. I kind of evolved once I was doing the programs full time to using my voicemail as my assistant because getting work done in an environment and there's somebody doing like a drum setup sound check a foot away from your desk. It was it was crazy. It was good crazy, but it was crazy. So I kind of evolved to doing a lot more work later in the day when I because if I sat there in the daytime, the phone would ring off the hook and I just couldn't get to doing the

work that I needed to do as you know almost a one woman production team. I mean you know of course there would be editors that I could work with but as well as a crew when we were packaging the program but I still had to do all the research, the bookings, the preparing, the editing. It's a lot. It's a lot of work to do. But again, I knew the places where I could get asleep. I could sleep those security ventures that, you know, the nurse's station has a cot in it. So I started going down into the bowels of the basement to the nurse's station to catch a little nap

when I felt like I needed it. Love it so much. But Erica sat beside me, but we didn't have too much interaction other than the early days when I did the post-production on her features. Okay. And you spoke quite eloquently about Basil Young, but how about a couple of minutes about Master T? Oh, Tony. Tony, interestingly, I mentioned my community television background. One of the most, you know, they would call you up to come volunteer.

That was how community television worked. And I can't one of the worst assignments to take on but you know, you want to be eager and help out right, was to cover a city council meeting. And they go on and on and on. I remember one meeting, I was in the bus and I didn't know who was inside shooting, doing the camera work. And at the end of the production,

I remember opening the door to leave the bus. And who was on the other side of that door Tony Young. So there was a bit of foreshadowing us meeting in community television and then later meeting at much music. So I believe when I first got too much, Tony was a crew cameraman for much music. And then, you know that, as hip hop was bubbling and coming up, he did the Much Music Groove video.

If you've ever seen that, you can find it on YouTube. Beautiful production. And he did that with the same cameraman, George McWatchers, who did that first New York shoot with me. Really talented combination. I think they actually were on the same much music crew together because when Much was doing its live links during video flow there would be two cameramen per crew who set up all the shots. So I believe they worked on the same crew together. So that was the first

meeting of Tony. I was there already doing Raphapsody or Soul in the City and Rhapsody when Tony started working on his extended mix production. really he really knew how to I give him so much respect for knowing how to navigate a system at a time when it wasn't always welcoming to persons of color and he really knew how to you know show with all his beautiful talents is improv is characters and then evolve into this very you know in depth intellectual journalist with the kinds of interviews that he's going to be joining us for the AGO program. And you know, he still he still continues to represent culture with the work that he does today. Absolutely. Interesting side note, I'm curious, did you see the documentary 299 Queen Street West? You know, it's interesting. So I was asked, I was contacted about being in the documentary.

And there was a few things buzzing around that people were asking about you. I don't know if you've seen drop the needle. Yes, I have. I participated in drop the needle and did some consulting on that film. I did not get to see 299. I was approached about being in the film. And when I, you know, I work in production, I work in film. My latest film credit is I was the Jamaican production manager for the Bam Bam Sister Nancy documentary,

which is an incredible film by Alison Duke and Engadi of Oya and everybody has to go see that film. Beautiful, beautiful film. But I was approached and I asked a few questions. I asked a few questions about the documentary and never heard back. And then the film came out. Well, it depends how you define came out. But yes, just right. Right. Yeah, exactly. And let me tell you the rest of the story. It's very interesting. Okay. So there's an article in Variety magazine and the director of the film is quoted as saying he learned so many things by going through the archives at Bell Media including finding out that Rhapsody was the brainchild of Tony Young and I was like wait like hold on like big big big stop.

So I reached out to the director because I didn't remember that he had contacted me about the film because he ignored me when I asked I you know, I went back with questions about the production in the engagement and how it would go and what the expectations were blah blah blah. So I messaged him though he's like, oh yeah, I asked you if you wanted to be in the film. And I went back and I checked my message and said,

yeah, but you didn't get back to me when I asked you questions. So anyway, I said, well, listen, this is incorrect, this information and it's in variety magazine. Like this is an entertainment Bible and it's all it's everywhere. And you have given my credit away to someone else.

And he said to me, we were texting back and forth on social media. And he says to me, he goes, oh yeah, I hate when I get misquoted and that was the end of it so luckily at the time I had a little bit of a publishing insight because this article was being written about my career for music works magazine and the publisher of Music Works helped us track down the writer and I got a correction made in variety. But I thought at the time, you know, why couldn't the director, who obviously would have had the contact to the person who interviewed him, you know,

dropped an email and got a correction? Like it was very strange. And then I've heard, of course, since the drama of the samples and the copyright not being handled in a way that the film could be released in a larger way than the premieres they did on that cross Canada tour that they did. I'd love to see it. I'd very much love to see it. I'd very much like to see it.

So I have seen it because I was invited to the Roy Thompson Hall premiere because the director, his name is Sean Menard, he's been over here. We've had a chat about everything. But the reason I actually brought it up is because we're talking about Master T and I'm friendly enough with Master T. He's been over here. I'm a big fan of Master T. And he didn't like he was asked to be a part of this and he said no. So yes, I know. Yeah, he said no. Whereas for example, I'll just pick on well, Eric M is heavily involved, I think an executive producer title or something of that nature. And then you have of course, Michael Williams, who's very involved, etc, etc. But You know, I've had on this very show

Catherine McClenahan, did you ever cross paths with Catherine McClenahan by any chance? You know, I didn't, but I have listened. I listened to Erica's podcast with Catherine and I did hear I did. I was following online

because, you know, social media wise, I'm connected to many of my old colleagues at City Much Music. So I was seeing all the commentary and I heard about her disappointment because she too was miscredited. And this is a sticky point for me in this day and age when there's so much more access to the media and I feel that the word documentary gets used so much more lightly as opposed to maybe back in the day where your research and the credibility and the integrity and having the correct information is is is so essential to being able to put that moniker documentary on a film. So I felt my heart was broken for Catherine that she was basically erased as being the first female VJ on MuchMusic. Yeah, absolutely.

You said it there. And I do agree, the best case, the best example in recent history is this news that this very deep dive, warts and all documentary series on the extremely talented Prince was being shelved in favor of a quote unquote documentary that the family of Prince was going to be behind. And I think it's safe to assume there'd be no warts in that particular version. And yeah, the word documentary now, it seems like a lot of these documentaries are sort of like celebrities sanctioned PR pieces. Definitely, definitely.

Yeah, it's become the new norm in the genre almost. And we're in this world where there's all these platforms that need to be fed with content. So I think there are corners that are cut in terms of integrity in some of these pieces that we see a lot of see. A lot of propaganda. A lot of propaganda. Okay, so I realize now that we're at the hour mark and I promise you, I am wrapping up here, but rapid fire here. Oh gosh.

Any interactions with the visionary that is Moses Neimer? I plead the fifth. Okay, then you can play the fifth on that because that is your right, of course. But then I have a follow up, which is any, I'm curious for what you thought of the time Moses Neimer ordered Public Enemy off of much music due to anti-Semitism. People will have to read my book. Oh no, this is like Nick Kiprio. So it's in the book. It's in the book. Okay. It'll be in my book. Sorry. Okay. When this book is published, will you come back on to discuss? Definitely.

Definitely. And you do know, Michelle, you get one Zoom. I kind of thought it was a Zoom from Jamaica. You get one. The next one, you got to be in the basement so I can give you your Palma pasta lasagna and your Great Lakes beer in your Ridley funeral home measuring tape. Well, I wanted to invite you to come to the AGO. I don't know if you're available on Saturday. You might want to bring a package with you. You know, you got to earn that goods. You got to be in the basement. I would do that. I would make people earn it too. So then, sorry, before I, yeah, please, please continue. No, I just wanted to give you your props for what you're doing. I, I, I love, I love it. I love that you're documenting all this culture, telling people stories and

you know, really almost mom and pop support from really good brands. I think that's amazing what you're doing. And how many shows have you done? How many episodes? This is 1653, I believe. Wow. That's a lot of work. And I've wanted to, I've wanted to have this conversation with you for a very long time. I love, I love rap. I love Canadian rap. I was there for rap city on much music. And I just said, Michelle Geister is somebody I want to speak to. So we're almost done here. We talked about Mishimi. So two more artists

I just was curious if you had anything further to say about one being Maestro Fresh Wes, who I think it's safe to say had the first hit Canadian hip-hop song, When Let Your Backbone Slide Broke. Shout out to Joel Goldberg in his video with Dwight Drummond cameo in there. And then maybe a word or two about Dream Warriors, which DJ Ron Nelson recorded in his basement studio. Yeah. So Maestro and Dream Warriors, please. All right. So I think it would be great for people to come out to the AGO. Wait, you're going to be at the AGO this weekend? What's going on? Okay. Just kidding. Yeah. Please remind people. So one of the things that we've done for the presentation is we've collected over 40 testimonials from people who were a part of the scene in all different kinds of ways.

So of course, Maestro is in there and he actually recalls one of our first interactions. I don't want to give it away because it's going to be at the event. And then he stole one of my favorite memories that I had shared with him. And he went and stole it as one of his memories that you'll probably see in the edit this weekend. Which I will try to go to by the way, I will absolutely do my best.

I have like four kids, I got to do some balancing here, but I actually want to be at the Art Gallery of Ontario on Saturday from one to four p.m. for remembering Rapsody, the legacy of Canadian hip hop television. I want to be there. I think I can be there. I will put you on the guest list. Remember first name Toronto, last name Mike. Okay.

So you're it's not that it's in the book. It's the book, it's in the art gallery edit video that we can see. But Dream Warriors, Maestro, all this stuff I'm looking for, I have to come out to the art gallery on Saturday to drink it in. I would say so. I mean, I have some personal archives of the Dream Warriors. I was very privileged to do two, I think it was two, maybe three tours with the Dream Warriors in Europe as well as across all of the UK. And during one of those tours, I did freelance video work for a portion of my time at Mutch.

We were very blessed in the open creativity of the environment. As you know, Joel worked at Mutch, but he also did music videos. I did a few videos myself. And I did, at the time, it was in fashion to do what they call home videos so when an artist had music videos you'd link them together with other content so I did one of those for the dream warriors following them on tour in Europe so I'll be showing some of that incredible footage to have been on tour with a Canadian hip-hop act who were top 20 in the UK and charting in other places around the

world. It was incredible to be going to record stores and there would be this press scrum like of I don't know 30 photographers. It was a very special time and I'm I was grateful that I could you know take up a camera, take my vacation time, take my own camera and go on the road and then come back and be able to share with the nation what inspirational things were happening for Canadian artists. Amazing. Yeah, that's my dream warrior. Sorry.

Oh, and I got to go to, I also worked on Jules, their video. I worked on the My Definition video that Joel shot. I always did a lot of things like getting casting and bringing in the right stylist stuff like that. And then we also did a pretty interesting video in St. Kitts. Can we go to St. Kitts? Yeah, St. Kitts and Nevis where for the song Lootie course and very interestingly sorry I'm gonna rat you out Joel the camera for that shoot was FedExed so we went to St. Kitts for 10 days to do this video and Joel maybe his first time doing something outside the country he shipped the film camera first time doing something outside the country. He shipped the film camera while we were there seven days before the camera showed up. So we had quite the trip doing the pre-production for a whole week. And then the last bit of the trip, we had to bang out the video for

Ludi. But yeah, so many incredible memories and so grateful to have been able to make a contribution you know. Any home video of Tom Green and organized rhyme? I have my Tom Green stories I do I have some pretty interesting Tom Green videos um stories I I did a number of videos again with Tom Green and crew. Yeah, check the OR video. Which has a cameo appearance by the Dream Warriors. Yes, yes, because we went to Jane and Finch. We went to Jane and Finch. The Food City at Jane and Finch.

Yes. Because I was working at the Food City at Galleria Mall at the time. Oh, really? Oh, look at that. There you go. Also did that check the OR video, sorry, Love One video as well. I did that video. I did a number of videos with George Vail. fantastic now director of course but also incredible cinematographer so those videos all exist out in the out in the world out on but it's safe to say the the not just the average but I think 99.9 percent of the listeners right now only care about the one organized rhyme song. Like I feel like that's a band, I know my opinion, that's a band where everybody knows check the OR and it's amazing that people probably listening around can do it in their head right now, they

can see the video and that Ottawa Senators hat or jersey whatever. I don't think anyone listening other than Tom Green himself could name a second organized rhyme song. This is my feeling here in South Etobicoke Maybe I'm wrong Love one is a beautiful video. I it's memorable to me. I don't think just because I worked on it just because It had a vibe and it was a new look for hip-hop. I would say But yeah, maybe, maybe. And I don't mean to discredit organized rock. I have a great story. I have a great Tom Green story, though.

Okay. When we were doing Check the OR, of course, you know, we did a lot of guerrilla shooting in those days. I was working with Roger Larry on that video and Barry Stone. And we went to Jane and Finch and of course we don't have permission to be there like we're showing up and trying to like you know blow off these shots that we need so we're under pressure plus it's winter and it's cold and we're trying to finish and and we're there and we're looking and I can't find Tom Tom because of course that falls

down to me to have to wrangle the talent as well can't find him anywhere like looking everywhere have you seen him have you seen them guess where I find Tom Green no idea in a tree yes climbed a tree He's in a tree while we're looking for him to do to get these last shots done so we could move, you know, get out of the way before security threw us out of the project that we were that we had invaded with our little our little crew. You don't want to mess with the food city security. They could be pretty tough actually. Yeah, I we food city was cool. It was the actual residential area that we were that we were we didn't have permission to be there. So yeah, we were trying to get out of there pretty quick. But you know, a lot of respect to Tom Green, he actually organized, you know, with Rap City, I was very intentional in wanting

to build what I called, you know, much music was the nation's music station. So I was like, well, we need a Canadian hip hop nation. So we did, I did a segment that was always, I'd like to think of it as being like early social media where I would post community information, not concerts, because I was making sure we had, you remember our sponsored music listings on MuchMusic, but there were other things happening culturally. So I made a segment where we would post information about things that were happening, the Canadian hip-hop nation, Tom organized for us to go to Ottawa and cover what was happening in the Ottawa scene at the time, of course, including Organized Rhyme and the community radio there and some other groups and I was fortunate that I got to do that with other groups across

the country and those little little places cities that all had their scenes because that was something that people didn't realize they thought oh it's you know just you know this is black music it's only in certain urban centers or it's only in Toronto. But yeah, there was there's a scene in Vancouver, there was a scene in Calgary, there's a scene in Edmonton, there was a Winnipeg scene, there was an Ottawa scene, there was a Montreal scene, there was a Halifax scene. And you know, forgive me for the scenes I'm not remembering. But it was a revolution. And it was it went from coast to coast, really. Amazing. So why do you leave much music? I would say professional trauma.

And I had fallen in love with Jamaica and my husband is Jamaican. And it was time for a change. I had been at Much Music 11 to 12 years. and I had realized that I didn't need to stay in the cold. And it was time my biological clock was ticking. I was ready to start my family. And yeah, so I did have a very prolific career, I would say.

And I've been told just in terms of influencing Jamaican, the Jamaican television landscape as well. So a lot of what had been done in at City and much the kind of production technique, I took that with me when I moved to Jamaica. I thought I would do music television when I got to Jamaica, but we already had several established music shows. So I ended up kind of doing a pivot and started doing lifestyle television. So I created a show that is on the air to this day. I co-created called Smile Jamaica, and it's a much beloved morning show. I know exactly how old the show is because my son was born right as we were launching

the show because of course we had production delays with the launch and all kinds of stuff and then my son decided to come two weeks early from my due date. So literally the show launched as my son was born. So I was taking this born into the studio because I had to be there to direct. Right. So I've done a number of over the years. It's been 30 years in Jamaica doing other projects. The first reality show in Jamaica, building up a company that did Caribbean wide fashion lifestyle with homes, architecture and design, also had my own television food series and now I work in community development with an organization called the Source Farm Community Development Institute, and we teach all

different types of sustainable living practices. And I do media support for that in addition to other dabbling and other projects. Well, it sounds like you've done a heck of a lot, Michelle, since Rap City. But it's Rap City we're going to be remembering on Saturday, March 22nd. So it's called the legacy of Canadian hip hop television. It's remembering rap city, the legacy of Canadian hip hop television, Saturday, March 22nd, one to four at the Art Gallery of Ontario. I'm almost certain I will be there. But thanks so much for this time today and just talking about Rap City and more. And I'm hoping you'll

return to the program at some point here in the basement in South Etobicoke. I would love that. A Etobicoke has a very sweet spot for me. I would in those days at much, I would always drive out to Mimico by the park there and chill, you know, just to get a break from the city and look back. So I love Etobicoke. So I'll try my best to make that happen when I'm back next time. Thanks, Michelle. Thank you, Mike. Appreciate it. Thank you, Mac. Appreciate it. And that brings us to the end of our 1653rd show. Go to torontomike.com for all your Toronto Mike needs. Much love to all who made this possible.

That's Great Lakes Brewery. They make delicious craft beer. Palma Pasta. they make delicious Italian food, Recycle My Electronics.ca, Building Toronto Skyline, a great podcast from Nick Ainiis, and Ridley Funeral Home, Brad Jones Makes Life's Undertaking, a podcast you should subscribe to right now. See you all Thursday when my guest is Patrick Pentland from Sloan. I'm gonna be a star I'm gonna be a star I'm gonna be a star I'm gonna be a star I'm gonna be a star

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