Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Namugenyi "Nam" Kiwanuka: Toronto Mike'd #969

Episode Date: December 17, 2021

Mike chat with Nam Kiwanuka about her years at MuchMusic, escaping the civil war in Uganda, her work at TVO and much more.

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in Mississauga and Oakville. And Ridley Funeral Home. Pillars of the community since 1921. I'm Mike from TorontoMike.com and joining me this week is Nam Kiwanuka. It's from Big Little Lies. If people are wondering where the heck do I know that jam from,

but I quite liked Big Little Lies and I always love this song. It's just a cool jam. Yeah, it's a great song. A lot of people ask me if I know him, but no, I don't. I would like to know him. Kiwanuka is kind of one of those uh in Uganda it's a very common name it's kind of like I don't know what's a common name here um I guess Smith is a name that's very common Smith Johnson John that but yeah it's a very common name but we're from the same tribe awesome okay that I love it and it's a very common name. But we're from the same tribe. Awesome.

Okay, I love it. And it's a great song. And I have a quick message for you off the top, Nam. I'm really looking forward to this. I enjoyed Bentway Beer, as I call it. Because, you know, I don't know if you've heard the news over there in the TVO studios, but Omicron is very contagious. We'll get to that later. But my buddy Cam Gordon,

we met under the gardener for some Great Lakes beer. And Cam Gordon from Twitter Canada wants me to say hello to you. Hi, Cam. Cam's always been very nice to me. I met him through Jennifer Hollett, a good friend of mine, and we used to be V's so much music together. And then I hosted, Cam invited me to moderating a panel between Jack Dorsey and Margaret Atwood,

which was kind of surreal. That's a dynamic duo. Absolutely. He says you're, he says you're fantastic. Do you have any political aspirations? I'll ask it off the top because Jennifer, of course had such aspirations, but have you considered running for public office? Jennifer, I feel like we lost out. Jennifer would have made a great politician. I, no. I don't know.

No. It's a hard no or it's a, you know, you're definitely not? I don't know. Politicians are like coaches. You're always blamed. If, like, people really like you when you're winning in the minute you start to lose then and i also think i don't know i don't know where i would fit in the political arena i come from a country that has had the same

president for three going on forward decades. And politicians was always something, like going into politics was kind of like going into journalism. It's not something you wanted to do freely. So let's talk about, you mentioned you're from Uganda. What year did you emigrate to this country? 1986. 86. Okay. And there was a civil war, right? This is what you were escaping at the time.

Yes. We left. We actually walked from Kampala to the neighboring country, Kenya. And we lived in refugee camp for a little bit. And then from there, a woman from London, Ontario, sponsored my family to Canada. And that's how we got here. Now, you wrote a very interesting piece a little while back. Because, I mean, when people hear NAMM is coming on,

they know the Toronto Mic deal here. I'm going to spend six hours talking to you about much music. And, of course, we will do that. But you're fascinating. You wrote a piece about, and I'm going to summarize it, and then you're going to correct me and elaborate because it's your story. But in a nutshell, you weren't black enough for Uganda, but you weren't white enough for London, Ontario.

Does that summarize it? Yeah, basically. It's been very interesting. Sorry, there's a little bit of an echo so it's distracting to me and i want to say thank you mike because you've been so patient with my tech problems um no and i the echo i wish we could fix it uh you know i'm looking at it now and i don't want i'm afraid to touch anything i don't want to lose you so um okay if you, you can tolerate this echo because I'm happy to stop down. I have children, so I've learned how to do it.

All right, thank you so much. I just got out of the noise. Yeah, it's very interesting because when I was in Uganda, I was called the devil. I had a family member call me the devil. And my, this is going to get heavy very fast but part of my family rejected us because we were too because we have um my father is half Scottish and there wasn't very many people, many kids that look like me, blue eyes, light skin. And, like, I get it.

But I think it was very painful then. And then the first time I went back to Uganda, I was 19. And we went to the house where we used to live. And I was taking a picture of the house. And someone threw a shoe at me because they thought that I was taking pictures of them because I'm a white person. And someone was explaining to them, no, she used to live here. Her dad is so-and-so, but there was still that kind of like that animosity that you don't belong here. And then moving to London, Ontario, it was kind of the reverse. And even just trying to find my footing throughout high school,

like I've been living on my own since I was 16. So trying to figure out who I was without any kind of safety net, it's been very interesting to see the world. And then I ended up on Much Music. I remember one time we were at the Playboy Mansion with Hugh Hefner, and Justin Timberlake and Nelly were doing a video there and I was like standing between these two guys at the Playboy Mansion and it was what you would imagine it is. So all these Playboy bunnies running around and all

these, you know, there was a lot happening. And I thought to myself this is so weird this is so surreal um that here is some a kid who uh was born during the civil war lived in a refugee camp and all these years later i'm at the playboy mansion interviewing hugh hefner and justin timberlake and nelly it was was very surreal. Wow. Okay. Now, so much to unpack there. Oh, my goodness. But one of the things, and you alluded earlier to the fact that, like, if you were to enter politics, where would you fit in, like, in the political spectrum?

I suppose that was a reference to sort of maybe, like, what party would you be affiliated with, et cetera, et cetera. What would be your platform, et cetera. etc etc what would be your uh your your platform etc but it's interesting to hear you talk about fitting in as a a black woman with uh some features that are uh whiter is i don't know i'm trying to use the right semantics here but you have light colored eyes and a lighter shade of skin and it's interesting when we think like when i think about racism obviously my first thought goes to anti-black racism and it is interesting to hear think about racism, obviously my first thought goes to anti-Black racism. And it is interesting to hear how in Uganda you would experience anti-White racism.

But I think this is complicated because I don't want anyone to be listening to think that I'm feeling sorry for myself. We live in a world where people with darker skin face a great amount of discrimination and i've seen it within my own family um there goes my phone but i'm still there it's okay where people within my own family because we have all the shades and i've seen firsthand how they've been treated because of this color of their skin. I think what's in Uganda, what was interesting was that white people would be treated differently than the people who were mixed ethnicity. I think it was one of those things

where people kind of just looked down on you. In Uganda, in some places around the world, not just Uganda, there's a lot of places around the world where if you're albino, in some places around the world, not just Uganda, there's a lot of places around the world where if you're albino, if you're born with albinoism, you're considered to be an outcast. And so there's this kind of thing where white people were treated better than the people who were noticeably, you knew they were black, but you knew they also had white in them. And then you would call them Mzungu, which is kind of,

now I'm sharing secrets with you that I'm not supposed to, but you would be called a Mzungu, which is kind of like, it's a derogatory way to call a white person. And I would be called that. And my father was spat at, you know, but in the largest context of things, when you look at people who have darker skin than me, the data shows that there's more discrimination. I think part of the reason why I ended up on TV, I mean, I worked hard, but I also think the fact that I had light skin and I had blue eyes, I think that made it more acceptable. I've always heard that, oh, you're exotic.

And I've never, even just being called black now, when we first came to Canada for a very, very long time, I was African. I consider myself African. And when I was in university, there used to be this kind of rift between people from Africa were kind of just like over there, because this idea that Africans live in trees and were backwards. Other black people didn't really want to be associated with a continent. It's only in the past few years that you have this, you know, cultural rising with social media, the internet. Now Africa is the future. A lot of people identify with being African or African culture,

people that I know in university who didn't. I remember, I'll share another secret with you. Sure. I remember one time we were in the Black Student Association and there was a debate. This was at Ryerson University, which is now X University. And there was a debate about whether or not the Caribbean students should have their own groups separate from the African students. And one of my friends was very much against the African students being part of the Black Student Association.

She really believed that we should have our own separate organizations. In hindsight, maybe she had a point, right? Because they're very different cultures. But I said to her, you know, you know, I'm African. And she goes, you don't look African. Because the way she was talking about African people was very disparaging. And she's, I think she was from Jamaica. So there was this kind of like, you know, I mean, discrimination exists everywhere,

right? I don't think, you know, but we live in a society where the white culture, the white, it's like the default, but I don't feel sorry for myself at all. I want to make that clear because I know that people with darker skin than me face a great deal amount of discrimination. It's, you know, we just lost Mel Lastman. And as we, you know, speak of Mel, one of the things that comes up is, remember when we were going for the Olympics and then they were going to Kenya? And he said something about how he didn't want to go to Kenya. He ended up in like a pot of boiling water or something.

Yeah, I remember that. And that sort of speaks to, you mentioned some, like the anti-African sentiment that even existed in the Caribbean community. That's not that long ago, Mel Lastman. We're not going back very far. No, we're not. And I think I would even say maybe like 20 years ago it was still um up there but again if you i don't know how many people would want to claim that when that's what the media

sells even now you have one image of africa which is you know the jungle, the kids with the distended bellies, poverty. Yes, that's there. But there's a great deal of innovation. If you go to Kenya, they had this technology, Mpesa, which we're all using right now with our Interact cards, what Twitter was using, Dorsey's company, I think it's called Square. All that technology, that was from Africa. And people don't want to talk about that, right? So it's one of those things where it's frustrating, where we have this one image. And I understand why some people might want to distance themselves from that, because it's not something to celebrate. But there's a great deal amount of stuff coming

from Africa that we should celebrate. It's one of the reasons why I always kept my name. When I was at Much Music, when we first came to Canada, I used Mary. And the teachers, they were doing it with the best of intentions because we were trying to assimilate in a place in London, Ontario, which was very homogenous at the time. I know you know about Philip Trushton. So that's someone that I grew up with, you know. And when I started up Much Music, I remember a producer saying,

you need to change your name. Because in university, I started using them again and again. And she said, no one's going to remember you. Your name is too hard. And I refuse. And in part, I had the support of Denise Donlan. Denise was like, I want you for who you are. I don't want you to change anything about yourself. If I don't, so I don't know if she wasn't there and I didn't have her support, maybe I would have wavered. Maybe I would have used Mary. But I've always been proud of being African.

I'm so glad you kept your name. But from my understanding, and I only talk to the people who worked at the old Much City, the Moses era particularly, Moses was a big fan of your real name, your real ethnicity on display. And I know Ann Roszkowski has been over and she was going to keep Roszkowski even if nobody could spell it.

Like this is her name. And I know Moses liked this whole concept of don't... He did. Yeah. So I'm glad you kept your real name no he did he was great do you want to hear how i became a much more okay but okay in a moment honestly that's uh because it involves moses okay well we're gonna need that story but first i'm gonna share something i don't think i ever shared this ever on the podcast but i've had uh people uh who have

emigrated here from the philippines i should preface this by saying my two youngest kids, their mom is a Filipino descent. So, and I'm not. So the, these two children, they are biracial. So there's Filipino.

And then I got a whole bunch of Irish stuff going on, whatever, Irish, Scottish, whatever. And they, they were adamant that my children, these two children would be big stars in the philippines

because they had white features and they were pale like it was basically their whiteness was going to make them huge stars in the philippines and i remember thinking like uh that's not cool like wait a minute here so and on a similar note and then i'll be quiet here but on a similar note um whitening creams are very popular in the Philippines. Like literally cream to make your skin whiter. And that apparently is more beautiful in their eyes. Oh yeah. I wrote something about this.

I used to write for the BBC's Focus in Africa magazine. And I wrote about the skin bleach. There's even a song, if you're a reggae fan, called De Ma Bleach, De Ma Bleach Out Their Skin. Anyway, I'm a bad singer. Yeah, it's really sad. bleach um there's even a song if you're a reggae fan called them a bleach them a bleach of their skin anyway i'm a bad singer um yeah it's really sad because it uh it causes skin cancer and there's this anywhere you go in the world there's this idea that if you have lighter skin or whiter features you're more attractive um and i had like it it's i don't know i don't know how we change that um because beauty comes in all skin colors uh i don't know like with my kids i'm teaching them about you know beauty's inside i know it sounds really cliche this sounds true this aggressive anyway

but i i my my kids um i don't know every time i bring up my kids i feel like i'm gonna cry my kids are um very fair they have to like my son is a bit darker my daughter is very fair and because a lot of my family kind of rejected me when I was young like in in Uganda because of my light skin it was always something that I worried about with my children and now trying to teach them about their heritage and to be proud of all of their heritage, it's very interesting to see. Because even when my son was younger,

not many people would say he was cute. I think all parents think their children are gorgeous, even if they look like aliens. Especially when they're first born, it's like, wait, can I have a refund? I love you, Eli. But there was a different reaction to my daughter when she was younger. A lot of people would stop and say how cute she is. And then she has like a patch of blonde hair.

So that also makes people a bit more like, oh, she's, you know, I don't know how we change that. I think representation is important. And I know some people hate these terms and they, it's like overkill for them. But if you grow up in a culture where you're not part of the dominant culture, you do, it does affect your confidence and it does affect how people around you treat you and that's why we need to talk about this when you see it you can be it love it now i'm going to uh read you something from linda i hope you're comfortable being praised are you okay with praise i don't like praise my executive producer the agent so it's like whenever she says something, I'm like, I need to do better. And anyway, I'll shut up.

Okay, Linda says, I just love Nam. She's an excellent human being. Can you ask her if she's ever thought about writing a book? And if she hasn't, she should. She has such a great story. Linda, thank you so much. I think the compliment of she's a great human being, that's what I strive to be. The woman who sponsored us to Canada, Sydney Tebbett, I wish we could do the posthumous Order of Canada, Order of Ontario, because she should have gotten one of them. one of them. She sponsored our family. She had never seen a picture of us. She had never spoken to us. She sponsored us. We came to Canada. We became her family. And it wasn't just us. There

were other families. She helped a family from Eastern Europe, another family from China, and a few families from Africa, Somalia, and Ethiopia. And everybody that she brought to Canada, they became part of her family. And she was just a good person. She was just kind. And she taught me those lessons. And so that's what I've always tried to lead with kindness. And if I can help somebody, I help.

I would like to write a book, but it's kind of tricky for me because a lot of the things that happened to me didn't just happen to me. The people around me, if I was to write about it, like in the past I've written essays about some of the things that I've gone through and then it's just kind of ostracized me even more from my family. Because, you know, so it's, I've heard from people that your story is yours. And you can't allow other people to shut you up about it. But we live in a world where I don't want to be that person. And writing for me has helped me process a lot of those emotions.

And that's why I like to write. And the fact that I haven't written about that stuff in a long time feels a little stifling. But I'm just trying to figure out how I can write about my story without hurting other people. It's complicated. Yeah. Understood. Okay, now I'm ready for the big story. So you mentioned you went to, well, now we call it X University until it comes up with

a new name, but it was known as Ryerson. And tell me how you end up at Much Music. Ooh, that's a good story. I don't know. I'm ready, ma'am nam i live for these i'm trying not to giggle because the other day you know how they tell you don't read the comments yeah somebody said my giggling is not up to them and i should stop and i'm like we live in the world that's on fire and you're getting mad at somebody trying to find joy right anywho um i actually got too much music kind of by accident there used to

be an event way back in the day called the men of excellence awards there was a model uh by the name of tyson very oh i know this gentleman yes so he was in town to host this event and we went to the event and then he ended up going on stage and saying things. And we were just like, the moment I got back to my apartment, I took the picture down off the wall. He was, I don't know if he was drunk or whatever. But anyway, one of the people being honored there was Master T. And my friend said to me afterwards, you should ask him about an internship because at the time I was at a university. And then I said, I don't want to approach him because I don't want him to think like I'm a groupie or something. She said, no,

no, no, just go. I'll come with you. So after the event, I went, introduced myself and I said, I'm a student at Ryerson. I'm looking for an internship. Do you have any internship positions? He goes, yeah, actually we do. Call my producer on Monday. We'll set something up. And then, you know, that was that. And then I didn't call because I thought he was just, I thought he was just, you know,

saying something to me that wasn't true. Like, yeah, she needs to get away from me. I'll just point out Master T is also an FOTM. He's been here, Tony Young. And I love his story. And I think he's fantastic. Well, it's interesting because I thought that he was just brushing me off, but he was actually giving me an opportunity.

And so I didn't call. A week later, I said, you know, let me just call. And then I call. And at the time time the producer was Siobhan Grennan and she says I was waiting for your call so anyway I was like oh my god you idiot Mike it took me a year I would call every week I sent a package of other, cause I was writing at the eye opener in the rice onion. I sent them a package of my stuff, a year of calling all the time.

And then finally Siobhan said, you know what? You can come in. We can have an interview. We have a spot. So I don't know if she was just tired of me harassing her. And that's how I got the internship. And then once I got the internship I just worked um I worked behind the scenes I worked in the basement I did everything they

asked me to do I never wanted to be on camera because I was very shy growing up and uh one day Denise said I want you to do a demo for a videographer um because Rebecca Rankin who used to be the videographer, um, had suggested that I do it and that's how it started. Okay. Amazing. Uh, and so Denise Donlan, who's also been here and I think she's, well, she's got the order of everything, right at this point. So she's got them all like collecting all the orders or whatever. Uh, her husband's a damn good musician as well oh yeah shout out to marie mclaughlin uh so so tell me so you could you mention there's a a moses and a denise component to this i love okay so denise says i want you to dictate and i said no and i said no three times

but at least she says you don't say no to your boss so i went and did a tape and then at the time moses had to approve of all the on-air talent so i did the tape then he says to me go see moses i go to see moses and at the time his office was on the second floor you had to climb these stairs very intimidating i'd never had a conversation with him right i come into the office he's very nice and then he just tells me how bad my tape is i'm wasting his that's wild he's like and then he looks at me he goes but you know what i'm gonna give you one more time one more chance go do another tape and so i did another tape and then denise was like go do it again and then i did another tape and then she's like okay and then that's how i got the job

and you deserve the job because you were very good and um so thank you so okay so is that a is that a i'm just going back to the moses thing for a minute because i have had many a conversation with people who have worked with moses and it's very always interesting i'll put it that way but i mean peter gross i think was fired and rehired several times by moses namer so tell me like like is that just a move? Like, like, it sounds like a, it sounds bizarre to me to hear it, like, because you're very, very young at this point. And that's, yeah, that's an interesting way to approach it. Well, I mean, looking back at my broadcasting career, I kind of think that was kind of tame. I wish that journalism itself would change in the sense that you don't have to be like not

very nice to people to make them perform well. Moses was very kind to me. I think for me, I was kind of like very in my head. And again, when I said, if you see it, you can be it. I didn't see anybody on TV that looked like me. And so I was, I didn't know what to do. And I think I was trying to be something that I wasn't. And he, they just wanted me to be myself. And I didn't understand that. And one of the videos that I did, I did a story on Black, um, Blackab, which was an organization that was, uh, working to promote education and, um, working around health with HIV and AIDS within the Black community. I did a story on that and that was my voice. And that was a way of figuring out like, what did I want to do in this space? Cause Moses always said, everybody on air here is a character. Who are you? And it just took me a little bit of time

because I also didn't think that I deserved it. It's weird. There was a lot of people working there that wanted to be on camera. And for me, I just kind of, I was a worker bee. I know how to work hard. I have, I've never been given anything. I don't have any, any expectations. And I think because I didn't ask for it, they were kind of like, there's something about this person. We like her work ethic. And then when I figured out how not to be so in my head when I was on camera, that's when everything kind of fell into place. But Moses has always been nice, very kind to me.

Good to hear. Good to hear. And it's funny because we talked about Master T already, but Master T is an example. Like he was a camera guy. You know, he wasn't hired to be on the air. But that sounds like an environment where you can be somebody doing something else and then get an opportunity to do something like get on it. That era sounds like sounds like a million years ago now. But that's unique, right? It's very it was very unique.

You had ideas, and if you could come up with a way to do it, they would let you do it. And you got your hands dirty. You learned how to make TV in a time when a lot of that stuff was just being innovative, right? It was great to work with Soky and Lee. innovative right um it was great to work with soky and lean just even just in the environment when i first started working at tbo i was i had a really hard time because we use a prompter here and much music it was just you and the camera so everything was in your head you memorized it the much music video awards even all like people around you screaming and shouting and then i come to the tv studio everything's quiet i was like i need some noise i can't concentrate it's too quiet

so it took a little a bit of adjustment from me to kind of fall into the traditional um television broadcasting i can imagine now i'm going to play a little bit of that chaotic time in your professional career, which I would imagine was a fun time as well. We'll get into it a little more, but let's listen for just a minute here. This is a clip I pulled from Much Music in the Year. In the year 2000. Here we go. Hey there, people. You're watching Combat Zone.

I'm McGinny. Kim Minooka here. How are you doing? How's everyone doing here? Yeah! Yeah? Oh, wow! Christine, where's your headset, floor director?

She's a floor director. Her headset is right behind me. Great. She's right on the ball. Did you guys see the fight yesterday? I didn't jump my, well, if I jumped my cue, it's because of her. Did you watch the fight yesterday? Lewis and Tua?

You guys don't know what I'm talking about? It was awful. The combination. And what are they teaming up? Lennox, who's like this big, that little guy. He's like 15 inches tall and he had to jump up to hit him in the face. Five minutes, what'd you say, Christy? Five minutes to run away from the punch.

That's pretty funny. Anyways, we're here because Combat Zone, two videos going head-to-head. This past Friday, Backstreet Boys champion going head to head against Blink-182. Here are the numbers to call for your favorite video. In Canada, 1-900-273-2222 for the BSBs. Blink-182-900-273-1111. In the States, 1-900-990-2222. Blink-182-900-988-1111.

Right now, we're going to give you both videos from Backstreet Boys. But first, here's Blink-182 on Combat Zone. What's it like listening back to yourself? That sounds like, like you said, no teleprompter. It sounds very authentic, though. It sounds like a podcast. Maybe. Maybe. By the way, I like your voice at the very beginning.

It's so wild to hear about that stuff because I sounded very confident. And I think I was because everybody on that floor wanted you to succeed, wanted you to do well. And yeah, all of that was off my head. And you got very good at stretching because sometimes something would happen in the back of the seat and you had to feel like two minutes. Like vamping, right? We call it vamping, I suppose. You had to like riff and yeah, and the crew became another character. And I think that really kind of brought me out of my shell. And I realized how much I like talking to people.

How I'm curious about people. And I'll tell you something else. Like listening to myself laugh. That's where I discovered my laugh, that much music. I loved so much working there. It was such a, I mean, there was challenges and stuff, but it just felt like such a good, it's a nice feeling. I think maybe it's like when you're on stage,

if you're a musician and you're connecting with a crowd in that way and you get that high and you feel so good and it always felt so good uh absolutely now uh i've been told by the way that i have some kind of a giggle that shows up all the time as well like i this is literally feedback and people at least the listenership maybe the people who hate it just don't listen but most people say they kind of dig it and it's just a very natural, I don't even know I'm doing it, but apparently it sounds really funny at twice the speed. So if you listen to the podcast at two times, my giggle is a little higher than it is.

I think it's good to express happiness. I think it's good to let your guard down. I think when you laugh, you're letting your guard down in a way because we live in a world where everybody gets judged for this judge for that and just to let your guard down and just to share that i don't see any harm in that and we're gonna get to it because of course you're at tvo now and the vast majority of the subject matter that you're probably dealing with at tvo the giggle would be highly inappropriate, I would think. And I don't giggle with all of them.

No, I never giggle with most of them. Happy holidays, everybody. We'll return to my conversation with Nam. I want to thank Great Lakes Brewery for being a fantastic partner. Support the independent craft breweries, particularly at this time when the restaurants are going to be closing and the bars are going to be closing

and it's tough times anyways. Support Great Lakes. Go to greatlakesbrewery.com. Palma Pasta. Speaking of supporting independent family-run businesses that provide amazing services, Palma Pasta, they'll be catering my Christmas Eve party. And I urge you to go to palmapasta.com.

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They're at 14th and Lakeshore in New Toronto. And you can pay tribute without paying a fortune. Go to ridleyfuneralhome.com. Reach out if you have any questions. They're just wonderful there. McKay's CEO Forums. They have a great podcast called the CEO Edge Podcast. Fireside Chats.

They're very inspiring. I urge you to listen. I post a new episode on torontomike.com every single week. And speaking of inspiring podcasts, the Yes, We Are Open podcast is hosted by FOTM Al Grego. I urge you to pause this recording. Actually, don't pause it. It's flowing so well. Just open a browser and go to yesweareopenpodcast.com. Subscribe. There are several FOTMs in the mix. Stephanie Wilkinson is in there. Ian Service is going to be there.

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FOTM50 it's been an absolute pleasure working with the good people at ChefDrop over the last four months and now let's return to NAMM's Toronto Mic'd debut. But yeah, it was quite some... I'll admit, the first year was great. The second year was really challenging.

And when I say challenging, it's because... And Steve Bacon is a great guy, because Steve has hosted the show for such a long time that when people come in, they expect to be interviewed by Steve. So there were a few occasions when people would come in and kind of like, oh, you're interviewing me. Oh, I can imagine. It's like this. Good news. You're on the agenda yay bad news it's nam oh exactly and it was kind of like it was really um there was a few times

right before we taped so i had to figure out like in my, I was just kind of like, okay, that's okay. There was one very, very famous feminist and her partner kept calling me by the different names. So I said, hi, I'm Nam, because they were expecting Steve. And it's not the producer's fault. Just people become kind of like the agenda Steve, right? Even if the producer says, Nam is doing the interview. So I introduce myself. I'm like, hi, my name is Nam.

And then she goes, Pam? No, Nam, as in spam. Sam? You just say, oh, call me Steve. Yeah, just call me Steve is what you should say. Just call me Steve. Let's make it easy. And there was another very famous writer call me Steve. Yeah. Just call me Steve is what you should call me. Let's make it easy.

And there was another very famous writer who was very clearly disappointed that I was interviewing him. And this was, we were doing two shows, two half hour shows for the summer show. He comes in and his body language. So he was sitting with his legs farthest away from me. Okay. Okay. age so he was sitting with his legs farthest away from me okay okay like oh man this is gonna be very interesting a minute into the conversation you actually see him push his hands down and then move his legs so they're facing me because now he's like oh maybe she has something interesting to say. You won him over. Before, I got agenda stuff.

We're getting there very quickly here, but I have more much city stuff here. So, for example, we've had Joel Goldberg on the program merely to talk about the origin story of Electric Circus. There's a lot of Electric Circus chatter on this show, like the cowboy way before your time. I love time, yeah. Lots of it. it i mean we talked dwight drummond who dwight dwight was working like security and then uh joel puts them in the maestro fresh west videos and yada yada yada you know what

happens with his great career but tell me uh that's your first paying gig, right? Working at Electric Circus? Yes. So I was interning, doing everything that I could. And I was, my personal life, I was having a really hard time. I was still going to university, but I didn't have any money. And I almost ended up on this street and I was living in a rooming house. ended up on this street and I was living in a rooming house. My, uh, my boss at the time said, we want to train, we want to give you a job because you've been working so hard. We want to train you to do graphics for the electric circus. So that's my first paying gig. And I got paid, I think $50 a day, like for eight hours of work and that fifty dollars paid for my rooming house so that job saved me but electric circus was very interesting it was very high

pressure there was one year um at canada's wonderland because all of this stuff is live right so here's a newbie new to graphics and when you're doing a live show, there's so much happening. There's yelling and there's like, you can't make a mistake. And then I made a mistake in the credits. And that is just like, you don't do that because everybody has worked really hard and people look for their credits at the end of the show. That's like, oh yes, I did that. Right.

And then I made a mistake. And the director at the time got so angry. And I felt like I was going to cry. But I learned. The next time we did at Parliament Hill, I, you know, I was on top of it. I didn't make any mistakes. Yeah, it was really cool.

And then I ended up hosting the show. Well, that's awesome. Like, that's, I mean, Monica Dior was the original host. But remind me now, what's the woman's name we took over from Monica? Nadine? Possibly. I'm going to. Nadine.

But you, so you got to host it? Was it like the host was unavailable and they said. No, I hosted it for a while. Oh, my goodness. I should know that. Oh, with hosted it for a while. I hosted it with Rainbow. With who? With who? Rainbow Sun Franks.

Of course. It was great. I remember there was a lot of glitter. It was a fun show. It was great. It was great to see how committed the dancers were. I know a lot of people might not take it as seriously, but it was a community of people who really loved music, who really looked out for each other. And they were committed to coming to the show every single week. They didn't get paid. Maybe some of them did. But from what I know, that wasn't their motivation. It was the music and the community.

From what I know, that wasn't their motivation. It was the music and the community. Well, it was an institution in the city for a very long time. Like a number of things that were part of the city much empire, which many of these things are no longer part of our mosaic here, which is unfortunate. But let me just run through some questions from FOTMs before we get to the TVO. But Jamal wants to know,

what's your favorite talent interview and your least favorite talent interview and your least favorite talent interview during your much music years? Hmm. Uh, that's an easy one. My favorite is Alice Cooper. Yes. He was a jam, you know, like he was, it was at the MMVAs and I was doing the videography stuff for the first time. He stopped on the red carpet, answered all my questions, was really cool, down to earth. He wasn't skeevy because a lot of those guys were just like, no, I'm working. And then the worst one was Anthony Kiedis from the Red Hot Chili Peppers. I've heard this about Anthony. That dude is like the worst one was uh anthony kitas from the red hot chili peppers i've heard this that dude is

like the worst flea is amazing but anthony kitas i'm sorry for all the chili pepper fans that guy's not it no but back to the great alice cooper you know alice cooper was the name of his band right so vincent fernier just took the name of the band and uh oh i didn't know that yeah that's the band's name uh so alice cooper i mean i he seems to get it he always understood the character and the persona and he always lived a clean life like so he wasn't drugging and doing a lot of the rock star stuff he was golfing instead so uh yeah and i think too a lot of those guys like i get it i remember one time a certain fly girl um came into the building and she we were instructed not to make eye contact like if we were in the hallway we weren't allowed to like

look at this fly girl this is uh this is disappointing i can't believe j-lo would order you guys not to look at her like now i didn't say j-lo i said a certain fly girl well you know this is famous i don't know did you ever meet prince during your uh much music order you guys not to look at her like that. No, I didn't say J-Lo. I said a certain flagger. I know. Well, you know, this is famous. I don't know. Did you ever meet Prince during your Much Music years? He came and I couldn't move. Bill Wolichka was doing an interview with him and I saw him in the hallway and I couldn't move my feet because he is like, for me, one of those i that really helped me navigate my teen years and when

he came in i just didn't him shoddy and there's another person that came in and i was just like omg but most of the other times it was kind of like oh okay there's i don't know the but but the famous story about Prince that I hope, I don't know if it's true or not, but it was that you weren't allowed to look him in the eyes. This was the legend anyways. Really? I didn't know that.

Okay. That's what I mean. Again, I didn't, I didn't, I've never met Prince and now I'm sadly, I never will meet Prince, but this is the,

the legend I've been told that, you know, you weren't allowed to look him in the eyes. I hope it's not true though. Cause I think he's the most, one of the most ridiculously, he was one of the most ridiculously talented musicians of all time. Wow. Okay. Now Jamal has another question for you. He says, you went on to host NBA XL at a time when the Raptors weren't yet impactful in Toronto. Did you ever foresee the day? Did you ever foresee

that moment we had in the summer of 20? I'm now changing the question for Jamal. But in the summer of 2019, there was this apex where the whole country embraced this team. They delivered with a NBA championship. And I mean, I was at the parade. This was so massive. We haven't seen anything like this. Did you ever see that coming when you were hosting NBA XL? seen anything like this did you ever see that coming when you were hosting nba xl i want to say i did but i don't think i did when we did nba xl like i i've loved basketball from time when damon stoddermeyer when they did the draft i paid i think it was like 20 for tickets was even 20 i needed to eat but i was like i need to go and i need to watch the draft i don't know and i had the ticket

somewhere did you boo because i recently saw it raptor fans booed the selection of damon stoudemire because they wanted ed o'bannon from ucla imagine you know we've become smarter haven't we um but yeah i was at the parade in 2019 and i went by myself because it just felt surreal. I remember we used to have like, when we did NBA Excel, we would walk around the Air Canada Center. I think it was called that back then. Anyway, I can't remember. But it was like, we had access to all the players because no one really cared about the Raptors.

We could go into the locker room. We could, when we did the playoffs or even the all-star weekends whenever we went anywhere like when vince did the all-star and he became like a superstar we were in i was actually in the all-star with much music and then because he was from canada there's the tape. He's like, Oh, much music. Cause that's a station he got. He knew much music. Sure. And he gave us a great interview and gave us access. Everybody else was trying to get him, but he connected because, you know, we were from a place from his home at the time.

But yeah, it's been really cool to see basketball become such a dominant sport. My son plays and he was actually about to go into the D league, but COVID. Yeah, it's been really exciting to watch, but now it's like, we can't get anyone out of the players. Yeah, that's right. Like back in the day, if you want Jean Tabac to come over and mow your lawn, Jean could come over and do that. What time?

What time did he? He still comes. Jean Tabac will still come over and mow your lawn. Okay. So I got to wrap up this much music segment because I don't even know how you end up at NBA XL, but I'm going to hold on. We're cooking with gas here. Cam Brio wants to know, have you seen, Nam,

have you seen the at much official TikTok? Have you seen this? Okay. He wants to know, what do you think of it? And then he also wants to know, what do you think of Ed the Sock? Because Ed has like an alternative unofficial much that he's been kind of working on. Yes. So I think it's I think Ed was one of those people that really I think he was the biggest personality at Much Music at the time. And what he's doing now, it's about the music, because I think if you watch Much Music, it's kind of like a TV shows.

And yeah, it's just reruns. Yeah, there's no music on Much Music. Yeah. And that was, I think, the soul of it. So I think that's what reruns. Yeah. There's no music on much music. Yeah. And that was, I think the soul of it. So I think that's what Ed wants. Um, Steve Kersner, the person behind Ed, the sock was always good to me, was always nice to me.

Um, him and his wife, Leanna have always been very good to me. I like him. Like, I mean, he's, when he came over,

he was kind of cool enough that like, I got to interview Steve Kersner about everything. But then Steve had to move the car and Ed came down. And then I got to talk to Ed. I got to, like, do both, which I like. And he was totally cool. He's a little cranky, though, Ed, right? But, you know, really, with all due respect to Steve and Kersner, we want to talk to Ed.

Like, excuse me, can I speak to Ed now? You know, those were, were like such fun times like we used to do the tree toss we created programming right that should never have been on television like the tree toss after the holidays we would have like four hours of programming of where we do this thing to get rid of the tree. And I always did stuff with Ed, well, Ed the Sock on that. The last one we did, we were like Charlie's Angels. Ed was Charlie,

myself, Sukian, and Rachel were the angels. And then George, something happened with me and George. Yeah, and that's Strombo, of course, right? Yeah, George Strombo. Yeah, so it was a lot of fun. And you kind of just got you out of your head. You're just silly and trying different things live on air.

Love it. I mean, you're preaching to the choir here. I loved it. I miss the old Much Music myself. But now that we've talked about your years at Much Music, I got to ask you why you left Much Music. Good question. I think it was interesting when I left, a lot of people thought that I was fired because why would you leave Much Music? I left because I felt like I was being pigeonholed. I had, we had a few interviews from when Destiny's Child was just starting, when the Black Eyed Peas, I did the first Black Eyed Peas interview when no one cared because I was such a music buff at the time. And then when they were big, then it was like, oh, you know, you can't do this.

There was just a few things that happened for me that just felt like I didn't, you know, and I saw how everything went down with like Master T. I just wanted to. And I think the biggest part of it, I was conflicted because every day that I went to work and I told you that I would laugh and I had a good time, I felt guilty. It's weird where when you come from a life of trauma, you feel guilty for surviving. You feel, because I had a cousin, Fisher, who we literally left at the airport um in nairobi because the guys at the airport wouldn't let us on the plane and they wanted a bribe from my dad my dad had nothing and they said to him one of these kids has to stay those five of us so there was always this you know conflict for me where I would go to work I would laugh talk to these celebrities and then I would go home and it was such a conflict for me and then I would feel unworthy of that opportunity and I would feel like it's just going to be taken away, that I should be doing

something more, that I should be doing real, so-called real journalism. It was very, you know, people would see, like, the stuff that you're doing on camera, oh, it's glamorous, or whatever, they're meeting these people, but for me, it was, I was really conflicted. I felt unworthy of it. And I felt guilty for surviving. And it became overwhelming, because you would go places and people would want to talk to you and want your autograph. And then I would feel like, why do you want my autograph? I haven't done anything. I only go on TV. That's not enough for you to say that I'm a great person. And it made me feel very uncomfortable. And I felt like I needed to figure out a way where I could do stuff to give back to people and going to the so-called real journalism.

Now I'm older and I feel like that hierarchy of journalism is silly. But yeah, at the time it was, I think, I think it's called survivor's guilt. It was just a lot of that stuff. And yeah. But you know, hearing you tell that story and I got like goosebumps, just hearing it like sounds so traumatic oh my goodness and then you hear you know you'll see people kind of rallying at i don't know queen's park or something because they have to wear a mask like i would just be throwing this out there that i mean people don't realize what real sacrifice is like that's yeah it's um and i

think part of my where i became kind of frustrated at much music was that we used to do a lot of so-called real journalism. Like I went to Cuba once, and that was really some more of the stuff that I wanted to do. But it was kind of like, you're a girl, you're cute, you do that, right? And I just wanted to do more. girl you're cute you do that right and i just wanted to do more but yeah i think there's people i've tried to i remember somebody was coming at me on twitter and i try to engage with people online in a respectful way and sometimes when people are called trolls i feel like that's dismissive we call anyone that we don't agree with a troll and i don't know if that's true right i think we have to talk to people who we we should always talk

to people who make us feel a bit uncomfortable mind you if you're calling me racist names and you're being sexist and all those i don't have time for you right but if you're saying something that i might not agree with, I should engage, right? I want to engage. So I engaged with somebody about this stuff. And this person was obviously very frustrated because yeah, I grew up, I experienced those events because that's where I was just born, right?

I was born in the middle of a civil war. I can't change that. But for some people, this time around is the first time they felt that fear, that uncertainty and that frustration, right? So you have to be empathetic. Um, and you, I can't be like, well, I went through this and you should know you have to be sympathetic. You have to be empathetic. And that's why a lot of the work that I've been doing, like the past two years during this pandemic, I've tried to, we did a thing on vaccine hesitancy early,

and I refuse to call it like anti-vaxxers. I just feel like that's kind of derogatory because as we see, there are people who are very anti-vaccination, but there's a big chunk of people who just were scared and they were asking questions that they should be asking. And they had valid reasons for feeling as if, you know, they, they needed to ask those questions and we need to engage with people. So, yeah, I think for me, this whole thing at the beginning i was like okay i got it

but now it's kind of i feel like i'm spiraling because the impact on my kids but yeah i mean we're i mean i have you know i got four kids and they're all in some level of school three different levels in total but it's uh the last couple weeks have been tough to especially the last week like i'll just say like you know here we are almost two weeks deep into this thing and you feel like you're coming out. I was at the Argos game and you know, you're starting to do things with fully vaccinated. I'm at the hockey games.

My son plays, et cetera, swimming, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And then this Omicron curve ball is really like tough to digest when you feel like you can finally see the light again.

It's really going to hit a lot of people here. It more it's like whoa like deja vu i don't want to do this again it's a lot of people are gonna have a lot of issues with this yeah it's march it feels like march 2020 all over again it's really and i hated march 2020 same i think everybody and i think not knowing when it's going to end is also adding to the anxiety but this past uh week my kids like it's um they didn't want to go to school and i kept saying well you might not be going to school come 2022 right and there's why i don't want to i you know and i go yeah i know you don't want to i don't want to, you know, and I go, yeah, I know you don't want to, I don't want to either, but this is how things are and we have to figure out how to move forward.

You have to do the, the, the P word I've heard way up more often than it. You know, I can only say it. I only want to hear it. Yeah. I only want to hear it in like basketball or yes. I'm not even going to say it. That's where it belongs. Okay. So here we are. We just referenced March 2020.

But 10 years earlier, my research shows that you shot a pilot with CNN. Can you tell me this story? Because, you know, you mentioned Strombo, another much music colleague who also shot. I think it was. I can't remember, it was more than a pilot, but Strombo had a very short lived experience with CNN himself. What were you doing for CNN in March 2010? So I had an interesting relationship with CNN. And I was, I had a few meetings with the headhunters. And at one of the meetings, they said to me to me so your hair would you wear it straight and at the time i was like uh okay sure and so we had a great meeting had another meeting with them

maybe like six months later so six months later i show up to this meeting I mean the times could be wrong but a few months later I meet again with them and I straighten my hair because I thought that the reason why they were kind of lagging was because then the headhunter goes why did you straighten your hair and I'm like well I thought you wanted me anyway the pilot that I shot I was in the UK at the time was for CNN International and it was kind of like what Vice does they were trying to do something that was more uh like directed to the younger audience but it never made it to air gotcha gotcha by the way that's another term I feel like uh now we're trying to like uh weed out uh certain uh phrases from our the english language that we drop on the reg and one of them i feel like we're supposed to get rid of is headhunters you wish they wait they're recruiters

now recruiters i'm sorry you got it in my brain not to be that guy I got my list here and that's one of the words I've replaced I gotta get to the TVO you did some fascinating things between Munch Music and

TVO including BBC's Focus on Africa magazine you were columnist there for a while I was there it was really cool to have a column because i actually read i i grew up reading focus on africa and i could write about anything so i wrote um one of my favorite pieces was on my dad it was called my fragile father figure we don't have the relationship, but it was just kind of like the expectations we have on men now. We live in a world where men need to be X, Y, Z,

and then we don't have the support systems for them. And so I wrote about that. Amazing. And so you're obviously when you're at MuchMusic, and then after that, we mentioned you worked at Rogers Sportsnet, and that meant the NBA XL program, but you're in Toronto for that period of your life. But, and now of course, we're chatting, you're back in Toronto working at TVO, which we're about to get to. But in the meantime, the in-between time,

you lived, tell us, you dropped the UK a moment ago, but whereabouts were you living? Yeah, I left. So I was in, I volunteered for Journalists for Human Rights and I was in Sierra Leone. I was supposed to be there for eight months. I ended up just being there for a few months because I ended up getting malaria.

And I got the worst kind, cerebral malaria. And I was actually there with Jen Hollett. We happened to apply at the same time. We didn't know. And then we were there together. And Jen saved my life because I was kind of arrogant about it. I've gotten malaria before, you know, I was born in Africa. I'm just tired. I'll be fine. And I just got progressively, progressively worse. And then Jen literally took me to get checked and I had malaria. And the thing with malaria, the longer you have it, it moves into your brain. And so, um, mine became super super complicated the guy that i was dating ended up coming to sierra leone and he took me to the so i they gave me medicine for my malaria but they gave me medicine that later i find out had been banned in canada like 40 years ago

so the guy that i was dating at the time came to sierra leone because he was worried about me and then he was there for one day and then i ended up getting hives and my lips swelled up he uh thankfully he was there he we the landlord of where we were staying lent us his driver, sped me to the hospital. I was going into anaphylactic shop because whatever medicine I was given, I had a severe allergic reaction to it. We get to the hospital. There's this whole commotion with the doctor.

I won't go into that, but thankfully a nurse saw what was happening. Like it was really bad. When we were in the car, my partner kept telling me, swallow the air as if you're a fish because I felt like I couldn't breathe.

When we got to the hospital, the doctor takes off. Then a nurse gave me an adrenaline shot. It was so terrifying like if i had made it like a minute later or the car wasn't there i i would have died and uh it was you know and then we ended up leaving and he lived in the UK. So that's how I ended up in the UK. And then I was there for a little bit and I wanted to go back, but I just wasn't well. But yeah. And then eventually we stayed in the UK for about five years. And then when we had my son,

I just wanted to be closer to family. So we came back to Canada and then I was doing some stuff at, came back to Canada. And then I was doing some stuff at, um, for the Maryland dentist show. And then I ended up at TVO. Wow. Now the malaria, uh, that doctor experience, you're going to save that for your book. Cause at some point there will be a NAM book here, but, uh, you've subsequently, I'll just pat you on the back here cause you deserve it. Uh, you've subsequently helped to raise $2 million as an ambassador for the Canadian Red Cross's Malaria Bites campaign. Yeah, yeah. So that's a good thing that came out of it. Because when I was in Sierra Leone, I was supposed to do a series of articles for the Toronto Star about the work that we were doing.

And I wrote one article. And then the second article, I wrote about my experience. one article and then the second article I wrote about my experience and then someone from the red cross who's actually became lifelong friends jenna reached out to me and said would you be willing to do that so I was an ambassador for the canadian red cross I did interviews on ctv cbc about the program and I went to Mali with the Red Cross and we gave out bed nets. And it was really interesting to see how the need, the different level of need. We went to different places in Mali, like really remote places. And people were lining up at five o'clock in the morning for a mosquito bed net.

Wow. And it just kind of, remember when I said that I felt like I needed to be doing something more purposeful, something where I was helping people. And that for me was kind of the full circle moment to be a part of that was a real privilege. Well, you know, Nam, at some point, you're going to get your Order of Ontario, because in addition to this Red Cross work, I mean, the War Child Canada, Journalists for Human Rights, I mean, you've really gone above and beyond giving back to the planet. Honestly, like people, I'm so lucky, because sometimes when people listen to my story, people I'm so lucky because sometimes when people listen to my story they feel pity or they feel you know I've had friends ask me like oh that's I'm so sorry that happened or would you change things and I wouldn't I honestly wouldn't change anything I've been really lucky um I always feel

like my granny the woman who sponsored us is always helping me and watching me because she died shortly after I turned 16. She died of cancer. She really needs to have an order of Canada. She was a phenomenal human being and a great business person as well. You know, just being able to like have a family, have my own kids, it's such a, it's a surreal thing because I never thought that I would be alive now. I always felt like I was going to, I don't know. I think when you're just born in a chaotic environment, you just don't think beyond today. You just don't think beyond today. Well, I can only, I can't imagine.

That's the privileged life I've lived that I cannot imagine that. And that's why I laugh. Right. Life is good. Okay, so life is as good as it can be in the era of Omicron. But here you are at, and I should disclose, and listenership already knows this, but that Steve Paikin is a very good friend of this program. He's a tremendous FOTM.

Several appearances, he's kicked out the jams, been over here multiple times. And he was on this program as recently as a week ago today. He was, yeah, on the FOTM open Zoom. He popped on before the Leaf game. So shout out to Steve Pagan, who I know is listening because he listens to every episode of Toronto Mike, but now how the heck did you end up at TV Ontario?

Again, this, everything is kind of like threaded together. So when I did this stuff for the red cross, there was a woman who worked at flair magazine. She was at one of the events that i was at promoting the program and then she got in touch she wanted to do a profile that profile never happened because she uh shortly left but we became friends so one day later, she calls me and says, my friend works at TVL.

TVL is looking for a person to do this job. And then I was like, yeah, thanks for letting me know. It's never going to happen. They'll never hire me. Because, again, when I think the only person, Jodi on today's special. But, again, there's not many people that look like me on television. Noreen Virgin. Noreen Virgin. But, like, I just kind of dismissed, like, okay, yeah. but again there's not many people that look like me on marine virgin marine virgin

but like i just kind of dismissed like okay yeah there's no point in me doing this and this is um i just had my second baby and i was trying to figure out what i needed to do and also feeling a little you know confidence issues and you know sleep deprived and so i didn't a month later she emails me she goes my friend said they're still looking can you just send your resume so i was like sure they'll never call me back and i sent it and sure enough then the book got started and you know there is a common denominator that you've mastered the art of playing hard to get. The key, as I take notes here for my own life, just pretend like you don't really want it. Like, I don't want this.

And then you'll get it. Let them come to you. Yeah. Like, make them beg you. Like, can we please hire you for this? I don't recommend that. It's that confidence thing. And I always tell, like, whenever i talk to kids i'm always like

when you get those opportunities go after those opportunities because they might not um present themselves again and then you're just going to kick yourself for the rest of your life so i'm glad they didn't find anybody in the interim and for the record uh i was gonna drop a line from office space like what is it what would you say you do here but what exactly is your role on uh the agenda because steve pakin he's the primary host are you like a a substitute host what is your role there so my title is host producer and steve is anchor and host producer um so i fill in for Steve when he's not available. I don't know how he does everything that he does.

And I also do the summer show. So I was hired primarily to do the summer show because they have a summer series, which is a half hour. And Pia Chattopadhyay from CBC was doing that. So that's why I was hired. You're friendly with her, right? She's very good. I listen to her on the radio. You got to hook me up with her i need p on the show yeah yeah for sure we're not p is when i first started she was one of those people that i could lean on and call

um and i know she's really busy but she made time for me a few times to meet for coffee for coffee to walk me through the new role but yeah i was hired to fill in for pia because she was going to cbc because cbc had a show for her um and then i ended up filling in for steve when he wasn't available and now i'm doing a new show called the thread which is going to be launching in jan. So I produce behind the scenes as well and write for the website. Wow. Cool. I think that's a cool gig.

I think this is nourishing substantial journalistic work. No, it's great. One of the things that I've always wanted to do is to go back to school and do my master's and just be able to study. Because for my undergrad, i was hustling i was working i was interning i was going to my classes i was really split and i didn't have the luxury of just learning because i was just trying to survive and this job is great because i'm learning like i'm paid to learn yeah and i'm also in a situation where i serve the people

of ontario right and the way it's in a way it's giving back and also trying to like move different conversations forward and you know there's been times when i've been assigned a topic and i'm like oh i really feel out of my depth but that's great like you need to feel that discomfort. You need to feel like my whole thing now is like feel the fear and i said yes you didn't play yeah it's been great now uh what's interesting and unique about you know you know working uh with steve pake in there at tbo is that we're at much music you had no clue i'm gonna guess you had no clue what strombalopolis was being paid by uh you know his employers you just have to go to the sunshine list and you can see what paken's getting paid at the tbo well i'll just say this i've been working at tbo for five years and last year was the first time i was on the sunshine list so it's got to be six figures right to get on that uh yeah so you know hey but you're there and there's only you're only going up.

Yeah. But, you know, it's if you look at what Steve was making when he first started, I'm not making that yet. Yeah. He did come from CBC. I know. I don't. Yeah. Like I've said before, to me, it's like I'm just so, I get to learn for a living, right? I get to, you know, meet people, talk to brilliant people. I mean, I interviewed Salman Rushdie. Yeah, of course. So, yeah, it's been a really great experience amazing and oh yeah can i talk can i say one more connection with tvo of course when i moved to canada tvo is how i learned how to speak english do you remember specifically like what because i you're a lot younger than i

am i think but uh i did grow up listen I grew up with TVO like that was my jam and it was like you know I'll just shout out Polka Dot Door because it was a big deal to me and then as I've disclosed multiple times on this program Polka Dot Door would go into Doctor Who and literally scare the shit out of me because of this opening to Doctor Who

that was my trauma okay Nam it's not quite your trauma but that was my trauma as a kid so It's a little bit different here. But shout out to Polka Dot Door and of course, Polka Roo, who may or may not be Steve Pagan. But please, what was it specifically at TVO? Do you remember?

I am not confirming or denying that. But for me, it was Polka Dot Door and today's special. And even just watching Doctor Who, like the old doctor who because we had the rabbit antennas for our tv and they just watch we didn't have cable um so to be on tvo it's surreal and i just want to when you brought up steve's uh salary that was a little awkward but it's public information.

It's just there. Everybody knows it. It is public information, but I just want to say on Steve's behalf, if Steve was in the United States, he would be making a ton more money. He's very talented at what he does and he has a world of history.

He was poached, if I remember correctly, his story. I have to go back to the Toronto Mic mic'd archives but he was poached uh from uh cbc like so it's sort of like you have to pay more to poach somebody from yeah i just i know from behind the scenes they and maybe it sounds like i'm being a brown nose here i don't know but like the scenes, the amount of work that he does. And I know having lived in the United States and having friends in the U.S. and how much anchors get paid. We're talking millions. Right. So and I regret making anything awkward about this conversation because it's been it's been delightful. And it is a bit strange knowing like it's not like if I'm you know, you can talk about Peter Mansbridge right now. And I'm pretty sure even though he was on the show recently He's probably not going to listen to this episode

But I know Steve's listening to this episode So I feel like he's in the room with me here Hi Steve No Steve's great His parents are lovely His parents are lovely people Just salt of the earth And his Thai cats lost the great cup. So I think he's,

I know I felt bad. I did. My friend was very happy about them losing because of the Argos. Like we can't cheer for Hamilton. No, you can't cheer for the arch nemesis, but I cheer for you, Nam. Honestly, this was, and at some point when Omicron is just a distant memory, we have to do like a, some kind of a sequel in person. This is my... I would love that. And thank you for giving me the opportunity. I think it's really

cool that you thought I was interesting enough to chat to. I really appreciate it. You're far more interesting than Pagan. I mean, seriously, your story is far more interesting than Steve Pagan's. I'll put that on the record any day but honestly what are you talking about you suffer from uh i'm not your psychiatrist but you do suffer from um over hum i don't even know what the correct term over humility like uh you don't recognize like how awesome you are and how cool your uh career has been and your stories matter like you need to be telling these stories in as many different forums and channels as possible well I appreciate that really thank you and thank you to everybody's questions all the listeners who send questions I appreciate it right so and I regret

making anything awkward about this conversation because it's been it's been delightful and it is a bit strange knowing like it's not like when if i'm you know you can talk about peter mansbridge right now and i'm pretty sure even though he was on the show recently he's probably not going to listen to this episode like probably but i know steve's listening to this episode so it's like i feel like he's in the room with me here hi steve no steve's great Steve's great. His parents are lovely. His parents are lovely people. Just salt of the earth. And his Thai cats lost the Grey Cup, so I think he's good.

I know. I felt bad. Well, don't feel too bad. My friend was very happy about them losing because of the Argos. We can't cheer for Hamilton. No, you can't cheer for the arch nemesis. But I cheer for you, Nam. Honestly, this was, and at some point,

when Omicron is just a distant memory, we have to do like some kind of a sequel in person. This is my hope for that. I would love that. And thank you for giving me the opportunity. I think it's really cool that you thought I was interesting enough to chat to. I really appreciate it. You're far more interesting than Pagan.

I mean, seriously, your story is far more interesting than Steve Pagan's. I'll put that on the record any day. But honestly, what are you talking about? You suffer from, I'm not your psychiatrist, but you do suffer from over, I don't even know what the correct term, over humility.

You don't recognize how awesome you are and how cool your uh career has been and your stories matter like you need to be telling these stories in as many uh different forums and channels as possible well i appreciate that really thank you and thank you to everybody's questions all the listeners who send questions i I appreciate it. And that brings us to the end of our 969th show.

You can follow me on Twitter. I'm at Toronto Mike. Nam is at NamShines. Our friends at Great Lakes Brewery are at Great Lakes Beer. Chef Drop is at Get Chef Drop. Mineris is at Mineris.

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Cause my UI check has just come in Ah, where you been? Because everything is kind of rosy and gray Yeah, the wind is cold but the snow wants me today And your smile is fine and it's just like mine And it won't go away Cause everything is rosy and green Well, you've been under my skin for more than eight years

It's been eight years of laughter and eight years of tears And I don't know what the future can hold or do Eight years of laughter and eight years of tears. And I don't know what the future can hold or do for me and you. But I'm a much better man for having known you. Oh, you know that's true because everything is coming up rosy and gray. Yeah, the wind is cold but the smell of snow won't speed the day And your smile is fine

and it's just like mine and it won't go away Cause everything is rosy and gray Well, I've been told that there's a sucker born every day But I wonder who

Yeah, I wonder who Maybe the one who doesn't realize There's a thousand shades of gray Cause I know that's true, yes I do I know it's true, yeah I know that's true, yes I do I know it's true, yeah I know it's true How about you? I'm picking up trash and then putting down roads

And they're brokering stocks, the class struggle explodes And I'll play this guitar just the best that I can Maybe I'm not and maybe I am But who gives a damn Because everything is coming up Rosy and gray Yeah, the wind is cold But the smell of snow warms me today.

And your smile is fine, and it's just like mine, and it won't go away. Because everything is rosy and gray. Well, I've kissed you in France, and I've kissed you in Spain. And I've kissed you in places I better not name And I've seen the sun go down on Chaclacour But I like it much better going down on you Yeah, you know that's true Because everything is coming up rosy and green.

Yeah, the wind is cold, but the smell of snow warms us today. And your smile is fine, and it's just like mine, and it won't go away. Because everything is rosy now. Everything is rosy now Everything is rosy and Everything is rosy and gray you