Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Nelson Millman: Toronto Mike'd #141

Episode Date: November 11, 2015

Mike chats with former Fan 590 program director Nelson Millman about what he saw at Canada's firsts all sports radio station, the people he worked with and who went on to greatness.

Welcome to episode 141 of Toronto Mic'd, a weekly podcast about anything and everything, often with a distinctly Toronto flavor. I'm Mike from TorontoMic.com and joining me this week is Nelson Millman, Program Director at NHL Network Radio on Sirius XM and former Program Director at the Fan 590. Hey Mike! FXM and former program director at the Fan 590. Hey, Mike. You know, I realize I've never seen you before, so how do I know you're Nelson Millman? You've got to show me some ID. I can show you my medic alert. That'll do.

That's got my name on it. And how do I know you're Mike? That is a good point. And is your first name actually Toronto? That is another good point. I'm going to have to show you my passport. If you wouldn't mind. I will.

But nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. This is a great little setup you have here. I've worked in radio stations with less space, so good for you. That's funny. Somebody from the old CFNY in Brampton, they had a house in Brampton, and they were telling me like this is like 10 times better than they had there. I worked there. Did you? I worked there. Is that the Yellow House? The Little Yellow House on Allen Street. It was 1973. It was my first job in radio. It was at the time the AM station was called Chick Radio, C-H-I-C.

Right. By the time I got there, all the chicks were gone. Yeah, so I worked there for the Allen Brothers. Was it Foster Hewitt? No, Harry and worked there for the Allen brothers. Is that the, uh, okay. Is that the, uh, was it Foster Hewitt or, uh? No, Harry and Leslie Allen owned the, owned the place. And, uh, the literally what is CFNY now was the back turntable. And, uh, we had all sorts of live programming on the AM side.

The FM side, you would literally put, if you, I don't know if you remember albums. Yes, I do. Put one of those on. I have albums. Oh, wow. Good for you. See this white hair? Yeah. albums. Yes, I do. I put one of those on. I have albums. Oh, wow. Good for you. See this white hair? Mostly warped, I bet.

And the FM station was literally, we just flipped the album over and needle drop it and away it went. Yeah, you just played Indigato De Vida over and over again. I played a lot of those because there was a 7-Eleven across the street. And if I got hungry, I'd go across. Yeah, somebody told me that's the go-to track when you need to get something to eat. It's like 17 minutes.

Yeah, Stairway to Heaven became the, and American Pie became the standards after that. Oh, that's great. That's great. Yeah, we'll get to that. But yeah, so I wanted to thank you for coming because you're actually, originally Eric Corrine,

who covers the Raptors for National Post, he had this time slot and he's like, I guess he figured out the logistics were not very friendly for him. And he nicely bailed until there is a time when he's got a head around until he has a time where he's got access to a car. Right. Well, my guess is he would have been far more interesting than me.

But that's debatable because actually when I told a lot of people, I mentioned Nelson Millman's coming on and all the responses were quite warm. And there's some great anticipation to hear from you again. Oh, that's nice. People seem to like you for what that's worth. Yeah. Well, you know what? That's worth everything because what else do we have? You're right. I wouldn't talk to too many of my old employees or people I worked with, but that's another conversation. Hey, don't worry. I have a couple of clips on that note later.

So you mentioned working in Brampton. So because my first question is, what did you do before the fan? Before the fan, we won't call it the 590 yet because I guess it was 1430. Yeah. But what did you do before the fan? Well, I started, as I said, at Chick Radio in Brampton. I had done a couple of years at Seneca College of Business Administration. Then I started screwing around at the campus radio station and found out I could be a smart aleck with a mic.

Nice. Yeah, I was. And one of the guys I was going to school with got a job at Chick and said there was an opening. I had completed one year of the communications course, which was the precursor to broadcasting courses basically, but went through all of the, you know, the, the training about media such as it was at the time. And so I went to work there.

I worked there for eight or nine months and did everything. I had a talk show. I was 20 years old and I had a talk show. I didn't know I had opinions, but did that for six, eight months. And I was trying to remember why I left. I think it was when they asked me to cut the lawn. I was making about 90 bucks a week and working about that many hours, but great, great, great learning experience. And from there, I didn't work for four or five months. I was married at the time. And one day picked up the phone and called a radio station in Vancouver, a gentleman by the name of Chuck McCoy,

who I wound up working with again when Rogers bought us. Anyway, I moved out to Vancouver literally within a month and produced a morning show out there and production manager and a number of things. Then I moved back to Toronto in 1986. No, that's a lie. 1983. I was going to call you out on that. Yeah, you should have. Out of respect.

I let it go. You know what? I'm happy I remember breakfast. And moved back out to Vancouver in 84. In 89, went to London, Ontario. So this was all music radio. radio. So I did 20 years of rock radio and from London, I went to what was Telemedia, owned the Blue Jay Rights and Leaf Rights and Primetime Sports and a number of other properties. This was before the fans. So March of

92, I came back to Toronto and my first day on the job, I went to spring training. That's a good way to start. By the way, that 90 hours, $90, I hear that's still the going rate for some radio people. Yeah, it actually is. It hasn't changed. No, it really hasn't changed. You think they're tied to inflation or something? It's all the fun and free albums we get. You know what? It's true. I hear like back in the day, the swag was incredible. Even that's drying up apparently because the swag isn't what it used to be. It really isn't and it started to dry up when the government caught wind of what they call taxable benefits.

Right. So in the old days yeah, you know, record companies would come in and we'd grab albums but there were t-shirts and other trash and trinkets. Yeah, you know, you probably have a lot of those t-shirts still in a drawer somewhere.

You know, I got rid of a lot of them, but I do still have some of them. Yeah, I think I even still have a jacket from when I was a chick. I was going to say, do you have a music of your life jacket? That's because, tell me if I'm wrong, but so CJCL before the fan is the music of your life.

In fact, I was at CJ, when I came back to Toronto, it was to work at CJCL. So that was the mid-'80s. And it was a news talk format at the time. When I came back, a guy by the name of Clint Nickerson, just a great news guy, hired me to come back and produce for Earl McRae, a show for Earl McRae. It was the evening sports show. And Paul Rimstead was on the station at the time and some tremendous talk broadcasters.

And it was at that point when ownership decided the talk format was losing enough money. They changed it. They didn't know what they were going to change it to. So I was the production manager there at the time, producing commercials and, and that kind of thing. And they,

uh, decided there were going to be a country station. Okay. And, uh, in the old days we used to use carts, you know, like an eight track for those of you listening that don't know what that is.

Uh, if you don't know what that is, you don't know what an eight track is. Um, and I remember putting together about 1,100 country songs that were going to go into the run. And literally the day I got finished getting it all ready, they decided they were going to become the music of your life station. A guy by the name of Al Hamm out of the United States had kind of created the format. And it was big band music, basically. It was music from the 40s and 50ies, hence the name music of somebody's

life, but not necessarily mine. But I got to hear how much is that doggy in the window and great music is great music. Even, you know, even at that time. And, um, so I was there for the precursor, uh, to the music of your life. And then I went back out to Vancouver. My memories of the music of your life is I would, of course, listen to Tom and Jerry call Jay's games. And then sometimes I'd fall asleep with the radio on.

And then I'd wake up to the music of your life. Just I'd hear it, and it's, oh, the radio's still on. So I do remember, yeah, it was a lot of elevator music, if I can call it that. It was, yeah. You know what? Like I said, it was big band music. It was really what they used to call MOR, middle of the road music.

And it was quite ironic in that all of the guys working there were young guys. They wouldn't have any clue about this. And, you know, at that time, there was lots of fun to be had in the industry. And I'm not sure there were, there was, there were a lot of Doritos being eaten while the tapes were playing, if you get my drift. And so these guys, you know, we were all trying to understand that music. You know, it's funny cause you think, okay, let's make the mid eighties.

That music is sort of to the mid eighties as like the Rolling Stones are today, today, like, you know, the gap, if you will. So it's like we don't look back at the Rolling Stones now as like old people music. No, we don't. And that's, you know, I think that's the nature of rock music and the permutations that have happened since then. September 4th, 1992. I remember that. Do you remember that day?

I do. What do you remember about that day? 1992. I remember that. Do you remember that day? I do. What do you remember about that day? Well, I remember how much work it had been to get it there. The first program director there, Alan Davis, I actually replaced him at the network because we had the network that distributed Blue Jays and Leafs was separate from the radio station. And that's telemedia. That was telemedia and telemedia on CJCL. So I remember a lot of work going into it and a lot of some great support from ownership trying to figure out what to do with the radio station. But it was an exciting day down at the Rogers Centre, then Sky Dome, out in front of the hotel where McCowan launched the radio station. The, so the buildup, could you bring me back to,

what was your title that day, first of all? I was the program director for the network. Okay. And Alan was the program director for the station. And do you, like, remember, was this a decision, was it, at the time, did it seem really risky? Or do you remember, like, basically what the thoughts were on going to all sports? Well well it was it was almost if we don't do this what are we going to do um the all news format had certainly been discussed and has had a number of other much less expensive

formats because sports is the most expensive format um so there was some trepidation but but mostly just excitement. The Blue Jays were on a huge roll. Right. It was, you know, they had been on a roll for, you know, three or four years. And so as a, you know, it was our kind of our opening promotion was Toronto Blue Jays going to the World Series. You know, I was going to say, I have a note here that it really was the perfect storm.

Like for Toronto sports. And, you know, we kind of got a taste we got a taste of it if you will recently and we'll get to that with the the blue jays run but really 92 at that time and i was like a teenager and i was a big toronto sports fan and i remember you know we're just about to win our first world series the leafs have this pat burns resurgence where you got gilmore in town now and you got you bring in andrew chuck and there's a whole, I think it's the start of the 93 season when we start 10-0? Yes.

Yeah, yeah. But 92, we go to the Final Four and there's the famous Game 7 against the Kings. That happens this season, if you will. That's the perfect storm to launch Canada's first sports radio season. The timing was perfect. And, you know, and I've said before, so we go through 92, then we go through 93 with the same thing with both teams

and the station is chugging along. I don't think we were making any money at that point. And we just thought, yeah, this thing's going to last forever. Forever didn't last that long. And it's important to note that when you launch in September 92, it's the fan 1430. Some younger people for sure don't even know that existed. But, you know, we only remember 590 now, but this was 1430.

That was the frequency. And it was great in the city. But if you got north of Lawrence at night, it became problematic. Actually, I was going to play this later, but I have a clip. So I had George Strombolopoulos on the show like about a year ago. And he actually, he talks about kind of this format in this day. And he mentions you in this quick, like one minute clip I'm going to play here. This is George on episode 103.

Well, I was in the control room the day they switched over. And Ian Radar radar cunningham was the technical operator and he played elo's don't bring me down to move me down as a signal to we're going down the dial right and i remember the program director nelson millman couldn't get 590 a.m in his office it was this really funny moment the fan uh hasn't it'll never be repeated what happened there and you know with the exception of maybe a couple of months with a couple of day parts and new jocks i have listened to the fan consistently from the moment it launched and i started i was there i think six months after launched to today so you still listen every day every day and even when i'm in la i spent

half my time in la i have the fan on when I'm in Los Angeles. The fan is, is like, I mean, my God, it's my family. You know, it's my family.

And when I do hockey night in Canada now, Merrick, Damien Cox, Elliot Friedman, and the producer, Brian Spears. And sometimes the, you know,

in the, in the other show, Gord Selick will be there. We all worked at the fan in that era, and I still work with them now, or I'm newly with them again. And the fan is just family. I was going to play that. Actually, I realize now he's talking about the first day at 590.

Because my memory was he was talking about the first day on 1430. Right. So that was, okay, so you switch over in 1994, the fan five, you switch frequencies with your sister station or whatever. Well, we actually bought the frequency from a radio station in, I want to say Newfoundland, but it might have been somewhere in the Maritimes. I believe McLean Hunter owned the frequency. And one of the reasons, aside from we want the general public to hear us, was Pat Gillick couldn't hear the radio station at his home in Oakville. Yeah, there you go. We called it the Gillick Hole.

Right. So that was certainly a big part of it because, needless to say, the Blue Jays took up so many hours of programming that the general manager, I think it was the GM at the time, wanted to hear the damn station. That's funny. And it wasn't any, I think it was $5 million to buy the frequency. That's pocket change. Yeah, well, not then it wasn't. It is now, and certainly it wasn't the telemedia. They made a tremendous commitment to the format and to the station.

And so that's true, and you couldn't get 590 in your office? No. He made that up? No, he didn't make that up. I mean, I'd have to, you know, almost hang out the window with aluminum foil to try and get the station. You know, AM signal, there's a reason there aren't very many AM stations left anymore. Those signals are tough.

And even if you drive around downtown Toronto, the buzzing from streetcar wires, it makes it tougher. I have a question from, this is a question I had at the time where it was announced you guys were going to brand yourself the fan. Was there any like pushback

because people might've thought you were completely ripping off WFAN in New York City? Was any sense? Because I mean, you took the same moniker to do the same thing. It just seemed. Well, the radio business is full of people, of stations ripping off other stations.

You know how many fans there are now? There's champs, there's teams, there's, you know, all sorts of them. So, you know, certainly. So no concerns about that? No, I don't think so. Nobody was ever going to confuse us with WFAN in New York. And frankly, how many people had heard of or listened to that radio station in this market? It's true.

And the days before the internet, we forget how basically you only knew what you could pick up in your car. And at the end of the day, are you not going to listen to a station you might like because of the name? Absolutely not. We met with Strombo, and he talks he talks, you know, very warmly about the fan. I mean, he sounds like he still listens every day. You know, we had a nice little family going on there. And when you look at some of the broadcasters who have, you know, you know, so nicely matured as as professionals and a lot of them came through the fan. Radio is still the best training ground for any aspect of the media. I'm going to run down

a little list here of basically guests I've had who have worked at the fan because I was just going through the list and I realized it's pretty lengthy actually. These are people who have sat in that very seat and chatted me up over the last couple of years. That explains why it's so worn out. That was Lumbee's fault if it's worn out.

Of course. Jeff Merrick. Yep. Elliot Friedman. Damien Cox. Jason Agnew. I can't remember. He was definitely there.

Yes, he was. For a period of time. But I actually know him because him and my brother are buddies from high school. Oh, okay. And my daughter has actually worked with Jason. She's in the TV business. Yeah, cool. I know he did Splat a Lot and he did the Hamilton show. What's it called?

The thing where kids, Tiny Talent Time. Tiny Talent Time. I remember the first version of that show. Yeah, so do I. So do I. Mike Wilner, Eric Smith, Greg Brady, Barb DiGiulio, Andrew Walker, Strombo, Jim Richards,

Roger Lajoie. I have his baseball card. I see that. Roger gives those out by the hundreds. Yeah, I got a hundred of them in the back too, actually. And David Alter. So those are just over the last couple of years, some people who have sat in that seat.

Did you mention Norm? Norm Rumack? I have never had him on. Oh, okay. Oh, those are the people you've had on. Yeah, yeah. Sorry. Yeah, yeah.

I should listen. Yeah, yeah. You should listen. Yeah. That's your job. Come on. You're the program director. Yeah, I've heard it all.

So I just wanted to run down the list of people. You know what? We've been very fortunate to have some very, very talented people come through the radio station. So can I ask you about a few of them? Sure. Go ahead. Okay. I want to ask about Jim Shakey Hunt.

So I used to listen to, I guess Jim Hunt was on with Bobcat on Primetime Sports. Yes, he was. And what kind of guy was he? Because sadly, I'll never get to have him on the show, but I'm just curious. Shakey was exactly what you heard. He knew his stuff. He was a character. As all us old guys get to be,

that's the nice way. We call them curmudgeons. Yeah, there you go. But Jim was exactly, he said what he thought and he didn't make bones about it. And he'd give you his opinion whether you wanted it or not. I was always entertained by the guy.

He was very entertaining. I guess it's his job. And he knew his stuff. He had opinions. He wasn't afraid to say things. And really, at the end of the day, that's what you're looking for from people on the radio. What about Pat Marsden? I love Pat.

Pat, you know, Pat probably saved the radio station. uh pat you know pat probably saved the radio station uh in the in the mid 90s when you know after the strike and lockout um and i can never remember if baseball went on strike and hockey was locked out or vice versa yeah um i don't really follow sports uh we hired pat to come in and work with john derringer on the morning show and uh at a time when the station really had no credibility because we had no sports we went for 18 months almost without without any real sports um which forced us to become a really good talk radio station the topic was sports but um it did change the way we we operated the station but we got you know once pat came in it gave us a whole new level of credibility.

And he was such a character and such an entertaining guy. And he and John, he and JD created magic. And, and, you know, when he worked Don Landry after John left the station, it was still great, but, but there was, it was a different, a different sound. So John Derringer, I remember him on Q107 and then he goes to Montreal, I believe. And then he comes back. He comes back. Bob Mackowitz, uh, senior, um, was the program director.

He was the operations manager at the time. And, uh, I was still with the, with, uh, with the network, which was two floors up. Uh, but I came down to be the executive producer of the radio station, but they brought Bob in as the program director. He of course knew John from their days at Q and John was looking for a change. And if anybody on the planet could make the transition from music radio to talk radio, it's John Derringer. Right. And so he and Pat were, they were magic. It was, It was an awful lot of fun.

There wasn't a day that went by I wasn't worried I'd get shut down, but it was a lot of fun. What's John's nickname for Marsden? What did he call him? Buddy? There were a few. Pally. Pally.

That's the word. Pally, yeah. Pally. Yeah, there was a whole lot of that. Whatever became of this John Derringer fellow? We lost track. What's become of him, do you know? John is still one of the top DJs, for lack of a better word.

I hear he's one of the lucky few who cashed in before the banks ran out of money. And he did very well for himself. I think a lot of guys out there, he may spend some time counting and folding, as McCallum would say. Yeah, I don't know. I think he, what was the big news? He had a 10-year contract or something unheard of? Well-deserved. Yeah. I mean, he's been such a mover and shaker, for lack of a better term, in the radio music industry. Who would you say of the long list, and I'm going to play another clip in a bit.

I have a second clip from Strombo where he kind of runs down the list of fan people who went on to other things and who would you say if you had to name somebody who's the most successful like alumni uh member of the fan high school well you know that's uh i don't know where to start with that honestly i think can i tell you where you might start and then of course i'm gonna i would you don't know where to start with that, honestly. Can I tell you where you might start? Sure, go ahead. You don't need me here. You can ask any answer, and I can just get back in the car. No, go ahead. I'm going to throw a name like Dan Shulman. Yeah, there's a guy who came to us with a little bit of a squeaky voice,

and he was an actuary, and Alan Davis has to take credit for bringing Danny into, uh, uh, to do a show and put them on the air. He was doing updates and you just knew he wasn't going to last there very long because he really was that good. Yeah.

I mean, even like if I'm listening to an ESPN call playoff game and he's the voice, it's just, he's the best guy out there, right? He's the best. And, and acknowledged as that by, you know, by the media in the, in the United States and, uh, and by, what I'm assuming is a very large paycheck.

Well, yeah, for sure. And you can tell everybody, and he just calls a good basketball game too. Basketball was his first love. Uh, he loves doing basketball. I, not that he doesn't like doing baseball. I know he does, but, but basketball, uh, he was a basketball guy. And you can tell everybody you knew him when. Yeah, I can tell everybody I yelled at him when. Does he still ever live, do you know, does he have a home in Toronto still? He does. So he's a guy that spent a lot of

time in airports and hotels. Yeah, he's amazing. Let me play that Strombo clip since I introduced it already. And this is Strombo. He just wants to tell you about some of the people who came through the fan offices here. So in that era,

never mind the fact that me, Jeff, and Bob started there, Jim Richards, whose ratings are the biggest right now. He's a crush. That station did very well. Very well. He did great.

Jim Richards. And he was a swing guy. He's a crush. That station did very well. Very well. He did great. Jim Richards. And he was a swing guy. He did weekend mornings. Who runs the score right now? Greg Sansoni. Very good. Nelson Millman at Rogers Sportsnet. Dan Schulman, one of the great play-by-play guys in the world.

Speaking of great play-by-play guys. He's from there. Yep. Bob McCowan. Gord Stelic. Damian Cox. Mary Ormsby was on the air. Steve Bacon, whose show is fantastic.

The TV Ontario show is incredible. The Agenda. That is correct. Was on it. Bruce Dobigan was on it. Spider Jones, Mike Hogan, Roger Lajoie, who's still on it. All part of that show. Jim Lang, I said, was on the air.

Don't forget the late night vampire. Well, and I was going to get to Norm. Norm Rumack is maybe the most gracious guy at that show. Jim Lang, I said he was on the air, was also, don't forget the late night vampire. Well, and I was going to get to room. So Norm Rumak is maybe the most gracious guy at that time. And, and still is the guy that gave so many of us an opportunity. And so many of our first breaks came with Richards and Rumak. And,

and I'm, I mean, I'm forgetting it, but there's so many other people. Barb DiGiulio. Barb DiGiulio. Todd Hayes. Yeah.

Was a part of it. Todd Hayes was like, you know, Mitch Kersner, who works on Hockey Night in Canada with me now. The brother, yeah. He was a fan and left to go to TSN just before I got there. Think of all the people that came through that lineup. And that's just so people know, that's actually Ed the Sox brother. Right, Mitch Kersner. So Steve Kersner worked with me last year on my TV show, and this year I get to work with his brother Mitch. Tim Haffey was so funny on the airx brother. Right, Mitch Krizner. So Steve Krizner worked with me last year on my TV show,

and this year I get to work with his brother Mitch. Tim Haffey was so funny on the air, man. There were things that were said on the air that were unbelievable. Mike Richards was there, was he? Now, at the time, Mike Derringer came over, and Mike was doing comedy bits for Derringer in the morning. And he was doing these really funny bits where he pretended to be the Beatles and all that, and a lot of voices. He does Bob Cole, right?

He does Bob Cole. He did John Lennon. He's done every... His Bob Cole was pretty cool. Oh, baby. So good. Yeah, that stage in the line, I'm sure I'm forgetting names. Mike Weller came later, but was still a part of it. Tom Cheek. Jerry Howarth. I mean, everybody that came from that station

has found a way to continue to work. It's incredible. Quite the list. Yeah, it's not bad, huh? Yeah. Some of it's shit-ass luck in finding guys. But a lot of it was that we always tried to pay attention to performance. Coaching was always a big deal for both Alan and myself and Bob. always a big deal for both Alan and myself and Bob.

And I think we, we help these guys be better broadcasters. That was what our job was. And it's part of it, just giving them like, whether it be a live show during the witching hours or you will giving them time to kind of put in some, some reps and find their voice. What I think is different now, and I've never been in the biz, you'll tell me if I'm out to lunch here, but it seems like back then you could put guys

like Merrick and Strombo and Richards or whatever, they'd go on at like middle of the night, they'd get a show and they could do live radio in the middle of the night and sort of work things out. And maybe at first they're not very good, but they get better and they get better. And next thing you know, hey, they're the faces of Hockey Night in Canada, right?

So it seems like now you get recordings at night or you get syndicated stuff. There seems to be a lack of time for somebody to get on the air and just do it. All night shows, which, you know, I did, that was the training ground. You could go in there and, you know, make all sorts of mistakes. It didn't cost anybody any money. There may have been nobody listening, but it gave you a chance to hone your craft. I feel for young broadcasters. I teach young broadcasters at the College of Sports Media. And I say to them, you're not going to find something here. You're going to have to go out of market into a place where you can learn the craft. And the challenge with sports radio, and I read all the comments about all the really helpful comments that this guy sucks. Yeah, I see those.

Thanks for your feedback. There's no place to train, especially for sports radio. We don't have a farm system in spite of the fact that there are now six, seven, eight, nine sports stations across the country. Nobody has a live all night show, rarely. You run syndicated sports stations across the country. Nobody has a live all-night show, rarely. You run syndicated programming because of the economics of the format. When I said it's the most expensive format, I wasn't lying. It is. So where can you find efficiencies?

So those places to get trained and learn the craft aren't there anymore. And Strombo forgot Barry Davis, who was a producer, an op and producer. So that's, you know, to me, that's the big challenge for the entire industry is where are we training people? Less so in music radio because of how many music radio stations there are. Yeah. So I'm glad you didn't completely disagree with me there. That means I was on to something. Yeah. No, glad you didn't completely disagree with me there. That means I was onto something. Yeah. No, no. You got it bang on. Nobody's more surprised than me, but you got it

bang on. Yeah. I was going to wonder, I'm wondering out loud if maybe, you know, is podcasting sort of a place where people can go to find their voice and, you know, I'm just trying to think of like, what else? There's so many more media mediums now than you know than there have been before um and now everybody thinks they can do it and not everybody can do everything so but it's a great place to find out if you in fact do have a voice right right i found out i don't see it's been very helpful to me yet you know what i and I give you credit. This is 143 of these. 141. 141, sorry.

But yet here you are, and I would assume if you didn't think anybody was listening to any of this, you might not do it, but you might because... You might.

Actually, you might. Because you get a kick out of doing it. I'm not even recording this. I just wanted to chat with you about this stuff. Yeah, you know what? That sounds like a lot

of what we used to do. We'd get a guy on the air and forget to record it. So you'd fit right into the, into the industry. So, you know, the short answer is yes. With the, with the technology that's there now, anybody can, can be a radio station. Yeah. And one of the things I've noticed, and maybe it's always been there looking back as you mentioned, who mentioned Stromble mentioned Mary Ormsby and people like this, Damien Cox. But, you know, you take your

journalists now and you kind of stick a microphone in front of them. And there's a lot, I mean, Blair, Jeff Blair has now got a prominent show on 590, came from print. There's a lot of guys who kind of, now you kind of bring the print guy and stick a microphone in front of them. Well, you need to have, you know, people with credibility, people who have something to say and know how to say it. So you kind of fall back sometimes into the print media because those people have the credibility you need to move a show forward, to have opinions and bring those things out. And they have lots of hot takes. And they have lots of hot takes as opposed to just takes. Or as opposed to just, yeah, hot takes.

But Mary Ormsby was a terrific example of it didn't matter, female, male, she had something to say, was really, really smart, and knows how to communicate. And that's the basic tenets of radio. You, uh, you've been kind of mentioning some things you looked at as a program director, but I'm curious how much of being a program director is about the numbers, like the ratings and today it would be PPM, but back then it was the diaries, I guess, whatever the numbers were.

And so where do you focus and how much weight you put weight do you put into numbers uh ratings well you know i think the keep in mind sports radio is a subsection of a subsection it's a it's men and then it's men who happen to be sports fans and then it's men who happen to be avid sports fans who want to hear entertaining talk radio about sports. So you have to take the numbers on balance. I mean, obviously, if something doesn't, if the needle never moves, you've got issues. But I always said the fan is a five share. Sometimes we're a seven.

Sometimes we're a four. But there's the line. So as long as you're within shouting distance of that line, you're probably on the right track. I used to, but it wasn't, it was never just the ratings alone. You have to use your instinct. You have to use your experience and you have to take a look and say, okay, is this thing making money? I mean, you know, part of my responsibilities in the last five years of the fan was I was the vice president and the general manager. That meant I had to look after the business of the, of the radio station as well. And you have a, as they say, a fiduciary responsibility to provide value to your shareholders.

You know, once I got a book, like the, who is it? BBM or whoever the heck manages the ratings for, is it BBM? They're called Numeris now. Okay, but they were BBM. They were BBM, yeah. Because when I got this book, it was BBM. And I remember the diary came with a $2 bill inside. So I had a $2 bill to fill in this diary.

And what they wanted you to do was fill out a week's worth of your listening habits in 15-minute time periods. Right. So under the heading of men don't fill out surveys, because that's all it really was, Because that's all it really was. You know, sometimes there were stations that benefited from the fact that somebody else in the household would be filling those books out. And we'd see them. We'd go and look at the diaries. And this isn't to criticize the system.

I don't know how else you do it at this point. You hope there's better technology at some point. But I would see books, you know, for a family of four four and it would all be the same handwriting, all the same station. So there were certainly stations that benefited from, from that, but male oriented radio stations had a tougher time. Yeah. Well, two thoughts on that. One is that you're, I always heard like CBC would have inflated ratings because you want

to appear like a smart, thoughtful person. So you're going to stick CBC in there. Look, I listened to my, uh, my Metro morning. In the old days, when you turned 50, you turned on CFRB. And if you didn't turn it on, you wrote down that you turned it on. That's exactly right. And the other thought is, as tough as it is for the fan, I always think about stations like 102.1 who want the young male

because those guys aren't filling out a diary. Like a young male, there's no chance they're filling in a diary. Although I, young male Mike, did do it for the two other. I don't know how honest I was, but I did fill it in. Well, some will, some won't. But, you know, you need some sort of critical mass to have, you know, to make it statistically valid. Okay, so now we have PPM. Who's wearing these devices?

I don't know. I always, I had this chat with, there's a guy who blogs in Toronto, Toronto Sports Media. I don't know if you've seen his blog. Jonah. Of course, Jonah, yes. I don't know if you've seen his blog. Yeah, of course. Jonah, yes. So he sat in that chair once and,

uh, none of us have ever met a guy who wore or a person who wore these devices. Like, and we can't find any, like how many people in Toronto, for example, are wearing this device. You can't, and especially since those who don't know the fan,

for example, has a targeted demo, right? So it would, and what was it exactly? Man, 25, 54.

Right. The sweet spot of 35 to 40. So when you're billing advertisers and stuff, it's all about that demo. Yes, it is. And it doesn't matter how many, you know, women are listening because that's the demo. I mean, you want as many ears, but really that's the demo that you make revenue on. You need to dominate something. Right, exactly. So you target that.

And I, like, wouldn't you like to know, and maybe you do know, but how many people in that demo in the GTA are actually wearing a PPM device? I don't know what the number is anymore. I've heard everything from 900 to 9,000. There's no way it's 9,000.

It might be for the country because not every market is PPM'd, the major markets are. You know what? Now that you say that, I'm not sure I've met anybody who has. Don't you think at some point you'd be saying, oh, I'd like to see one. Like, it would be really cool.

I'm going to put out on Reddit, I'll do an ask me anything request. Somebody wearing a PPM device. The funny thing is, I moved out to Vancouver in 73, and I actually had received a diary. And so I filled it out while I was driving across the country. Oh, cool. And it didn't help anybody because they looked at it and said, well, this is crap. What market does he actually live in? But I knew people who got diaries because you could flood the market much more economically.

Well, I know I got a diary. So, I mean, I knew they were going out. But this whole PPM thing, I would just – Numeris, who probably makes a boatload of money on this whole selling these reports and stuff. They're a nonprofit. Numeris is actually funded by broadcasters. Okay, okay. I know they guard the data like it's the nuclear codes.

You're not paying for it. Offer the money and see what happens. No, because Jonah did that. Jonah apparently offered them the money and still couldn't get them. You have to be part of some kind of an actual radio company. Yes, you do. He did try that, though, to his credit. He whipped out the credit card, still couldn't get the numbers.

Well, with all his money, that's surprising. He's got lots of money see i don't know these things i need to know next time he's bringing uh bringing some let him bring his own water donuts yeah that's right all right so we'll move on but i just wondered i guess it is the best system we have i just wonder like we put all of our weight into these ppm results and these these these things come out and we're all curious like how did the fan do in this? How did the morning show do? And it's like... But then it's all relative because we all operate under the same system.

So, you know, whether the information is right or not and nobody can determine right or wrong in that system, the fact is we all play under the same guidelines. And so relative to each other... Although I hear now there's like some kind of encoding software that can boost your signal, Voltaire or something. Voltaire, yeah. It's going on in the U.S. much bigger than it is here.

But you don't know who's using it here. Like, I don't know. Well, all Voltaire is, oh, it does allegedly because I haven't seen it and I'm not really in the ratings game anymore, is it enhances the tone that each radio station puts out to be picked up by the meters. Right. But if, for example, let's say I'm going to make up stations here and say 102.1 uses it and 88.1 does not use it. Unfair. Absolutely. So as I understand it, there was an agreement amongst all the radio companies to not use it, whether they are or not, who knows, but there was an agreement.

Cool. Yeah. Let's go back to May 2001, because in May 2001, a new station arrives on the scene at 1050. The old 1050 chum becomes the team. Yes, it does. Did that change anything in your line of work at 590 when competition arrives? Yeah, I think competition always makes you better. So we just needed to button down what we did uh how we did it every

every day um not really give the competition a chance to to get rolling and the funny thing is i'm now working with it's a very small business as i said chuck mccoy i worked for chuck mccoy again in you know when rogers bought us in 2001 or 2002, and he also hired me in 1973. That's funny. But now I'm working with a number of the people who went from telemedia at one point over to the team. So what was the list of, I mean, I remember Scott Ferguson, for example. Who was poached, if you will, from 590 to 1050?

You know, I don't remember them all. Romanek? No, Romanek didn't remember them all. Yes, certainly. No, Romanek didn't work for us. Yeah, Scott Ferguson was probably the biggest one. There were a couple of our producers, some of our technical guys. I don't think there were any of the on-air hosts that went over at the time. hosts that went over at the time. A number of those people had gone to elsewhere and then kind of reconvened out of telemedia back to the team.

A guy by the name of Gerald McGroarty, great producer, great radio guy. Joe Thistle, who programs two or three of the channels on Sirius. Paul Williams, who ran sales and marketing at Telemedia, brought the format over. So, you know, it's a very small industry. There were only so many people to take. I think maybe Tim Haffey went over there as well. Scott Ferguson was the voice, I remember,

so well after these Jays games, who would kind of do the out-of-town scoreboard, and I would listen, you know. Jays talk, yep. And I know, because I've had Wilner on here a couple of times, and that was the move where Wilner got kind of, started his dream gig with Scott Ferguson. Well, he was working for 680 News at the time,

and Scott Metcalf, who was the sports director, who now runs 680 News, maybe the best news guy in the country, he had suggested I speak with Mike Willner. And I know Mike had sent you a note. You know that? You want to ask it? Yeah.

All right. I can tell you the story, but you can ask the question. Sure. On Twitter, Mike Willner wanted me to ask you about him moving into your old room. Yes. So Mike and I chat and, uh, and I'm not trying to even decide that he was going to be the guy, but, but he'd certainly been the baseball guy for 680 news at the time.

And, and so you get to talking after the formal part of the interview is over. And I said, Oh, where did you grow up? And he says, I grew up in Downsview Bathurst Manor. I said, Oh, isn't that nice? I'm from there where, you grow up? And he says, I grew up in Downsview, Bathurst Manor. I said, oh, isn't that nice? I'm from there. Where, you know, what street we're on? He said, well, I was on Cyril Avenue. I said, I lived on Cyril Avenue. And I can't, you know, you think, wow, this is a really small world.

And I said, well, what number is Cyril? And he tells me the house number, and it was the house I lived in. Get out of here. His parents bought the house from my parents. That's unbelievable. And so kind of jokingly, I just said, did you find anything up in the attic in the closet where he used to hide things?

But he hadn't. Because when you read it on Twitter, you assume it's like an office or something. No, no. That's amazing. He literally moved into my bedroom. You know what's funny? His brother is my guest next week, Norm Wilman.

Oh, okay. Who does the movies. Yeah, that's great. It's a small planet. Oh, that's too funny. That's a great story. So what happened? Like, what do you think went wrong with the team, 1050?

Well, I'm not sure anything went wrong. I think they have the same struggle that TSN 1050 does, taking on the, you know, first in usually wins, unless they really screw it up. I'm not changing my habit. It's never easy to take on to take on the incumbent, you have to either out market out and outspend and out-talent and all those things and out-own what they do. And it was the same thing back then. We knew what we were doing. We had a 10-year head start.

They really had to be great, which isn't to say they couldn't have been. You were like the heritage station, if you will. Exactly. We were the station of record, as I like to say, for sports fans in Toronto, when teams wanted to get a message out to the fans, they came to us to get it out.

So, you know, I, I love Jim Van Horn was there and Romy, who we've reconnected a number of times. And you go back through some of the, some of the people that Stephen Brunt went over there. Right.

So when you go back through the people, they had great people, but the challenge was so much bigger to try and take out the incumbent. Yeah. It's like a Toronto city councillor. You got it like a, you know what I mean? Most city councillors are reelected because you know the name and they've been there. Exactly. And if you trust them, then... And even if you don't, sometimes they'll still come up the middle and... But it tightened us up significantly,

and I think we responded the way we should have responded to competition. Now, believe it or not, I have a few more fan questions, but to keep this kind of in chronological order. So in February 2010, you leave your post at the Fan 590, and you move to Sportsnet TV.

Yes. Tell me a little bit about why you made that move and what it was like at Sportsnet. I think there were a couple of reasons. I'm probably the oldest guy you've had in this chair. No, I would say not because I feel like David Marsden's got a few on you. Oh, that'd be close. You know, he was Dave Mickey. Dave Mickey.

Yeah. I saw him in a documentary recently. He's great. I listened to him when I was a kid. He was just an amazing jock. He was just fantastic. My guess is, although he's got better hair than you, I understand that he's cheating on that front.

But I understand positively. Yeah, this is all mine and not colored. What was the question? Yeah, I got it. I'm just trying to think, are you the oldest guy? Nah, it's Marston. Come on. But the question is Sportsnet TV. Why did you move? Well, I think a variety

of reasons. I'd been at the fan, you know, 20 years. I'd like to say I was now outside the demo. Radio 20 years. Um, I like to say I was now outside the demo. Um, a radio was, has been my life for a very long time. And I think it's some, and I had to get out of the way and let somebody else put a fresh perspective on the radio station. Uh, you know, there's everything has a shelf life and including, um, you know, including program directors. So I, it was time for a fresh look at, uh, at how the station was going to operate. And, uh, was it Don Collins who?

Yeah. Don, Don Collins came in after, uh, after I left. And at Sportsnet TV, uh, how was that experience? Well, great people. I had a lot to learn about television production, but I was always a big believer in hire good people and let them do their job. I think they were looking to me for some leadership, some coaching. My, you know, if I did one thing well, it was fight for the product. And I think they needed some of that. Great people at Sportsnet. And so the experience was, it was a lot of that. Great people at Sportsnet.

And so the experience was, it was a lot of fun. I enjoyed it. But, you know, I knew that it wasn't going to be for a long time. I can tell you the secret to success at Sportsnet. Do you want to hear it? Sure. The Blue Jays need to catch fire. Okay.

I always said if the Blue Jays go to the World Series, I'm the smartest program director on the planet. No, listen, it's unbelievable how the rising tide and all the ships rise at the tide because Rogers has the monopoly, if you will, on Blue Jays stuff. I mean, anyone can report on it. TSN can report on it. But you guys have the games on the radio

and you have the games on TV. The monopoly on that. You own the team, for goodness sakes. And I I know personally there was a stretch there where I don't think I got I don't think I visited TSN on my television. Like, I think I think it was stuck on Sportsnet for, I'd say, a good two and a half to three months post trade deadline until it was all done. Well, you know, the funny thing is I went back to the fan after Collins left for three months just on an interim basis, kind of keep the chair warm until they decided who was going to be in there long-term. And the only thing I ever said once the run started is people won't be able to hear enough, see enough, or read enough about the Toronto Blue Jays. Absolutely correct.

And that was the experience from 92 and 93. I knew that because I had been through it. And you're right. People watched, listened, read. That's all they did. It was the only topic. My appetite, personally speaking, my appetite was insatiable.

Like when I went for a bike ride, I put on Baseball Central or whatever the heck they called it, Blue Jay Central, Baseball Central, whatever. And I would listen to Blair talk. I would listen to Blair talk. I would listen to as much Blue Jay. I read everything Wilner put on Sportsnet.com or whatever. I listened to a lot of Wilner.

I literally contacted Wilner who I'd met because he had come in the year before and I said, when this magic number is in single digits, I need you back in that chair because we have to talk Blue Jays. I wasn't even going to record that. I just needed to talk to Wilner for an hour about Blue Jays. You want to get to the point where sports is transcending everything else. And it wasn't because of the sport. It was because of the emotional attachment people have to sports. That's exactly right. This was a likable team and we were hungry for it.

But this team, there's something about this team. And that's why I think this city has taken the Alex Anthopoulos thing hard. Sure. He was part of the family. It's emotional. We fell in love with this damn team. Yep. And he gave birth to this team.

After 20 years of, you know what? I didn't care if people loved us or hated us. I cared if they didn't think about us. And people stopped thinking about the sports teams in the city, which is normal when they just simply weren't performing. It's like right now with the Leafs, for example, there's a great indifference. I mean, you look at my wall.

I've been a diehard since the early 80s, Maple Leaf fan. And starting with like last February, I stopped needing to watch. And it becomes almost uncomfortable to watch because you know you're not going to win. You know these guys aren't going to be around when you win. Like you're investing and these guys are going to be long gone. And you start to realize it's better to lose.

So you're at a point now where, real brief on this because I only have you for a little amount of time and I have important fan questions to get back to. But when the Leafs score in the old days, it was like a guttural, yeah. Yeah. You know, and then you still have the yeah and then it's followed very quickly by,

I'm not sure I wanted that. No, I understand. It's uncomfortable. But last night watching the game, I kind of had a little bit of that when Gardner scored towards the end of the game. Yeah, see, last night I was spared because my boy plays Tuesday nights,

and I missed the whole game last night. But I did, yeah. So it's just sort of like you're conflicted. Like, I kind of want to lose. I don't want to watch the team and root for losses. So I think I'll step away, follow it lightly until it's built up to a point. Sports is all about emotion. You know, I always, in Canada, sports is a pastime.

In the U.S., sports is life and death. Everybody's got a college team or a high school team or a professional team. There are Dallas Cowboys fans everywhere through the United States, maybe not so much today. Okay, I always use the Green Bay Packers as the example. And the emotional attachment people in the United States have to sports certainly supersedes the emotional attachment we have to sports unless our team is winning. Well said, well said. Now you're gone from the Fan 590 in October, 2011.

So this is not on your watch, but the, uh, TSN 1050 launches, I think it's October 5th, 2011. Okay. The, uh, they're still around by the way, in case you didn't know that there's still going. I listen. You listen. okay the uh they're still around by the way in case you didn't know that they're still i listen you still you listen i was gonna ask about uh question i have about the poaching thing like is it and is there an unwritten rule like a tsn is not gonna poach a guy from from from rogers 590 and vice versa i'm just wondering now that they've been around since 2011, what is that, like four years? So in four years, I've seen no... It just seems like somebody would have jumped ship to go to the other side. Well, I think what you do,

when Sportsnet got the NHL deal, Dave Randolph came over. There were a few that did come over. So the poaching thing happens. But I do know that in 2001, when the team was getting ready to launch we made sure that our key talent was locked up so you have to there is you know you have to have that level of protection uh is it an unwritten rule not that you could tell me if it was well you know what i would say i think that there was a certain amount of not back in 2001 so much because they poached us, as did the score. When the score launched, they took a bunch of guys.

Elliott Friedman went over there. But, Zach, that's why you feel like you would have seen some crossover. And I know you bring up the Randolph example, but if you look at Toronto, if you look at 590 and 1050 in Toronto, I haven't seen any switch since the last four years. No, there hasn't been. And some of that is people think they're hiring the best people. And why would I go across the street? And then there's the economics of it, because if you want to poach somebody, you're going to have to start writing zeros. Well, I think I agree with you on the, from the fans perspective, why would you poach

from there? Because the numbers suggest that you guys are kicking some butt in the numbers. But the other way around. It doesn't mean they don't have talent. No, of course not. Because Mike Richards, for example, Mike Richards, no one's going to deny his talent. I just had Lumby in this chair who swears by Mike Richards. And I mean, I remember listening to Mike Richards back when he was on The Fan. Funny guy, and he's very good.

I got a buddy, Il Duce, who listens every day and loves Mike Richards. But the numbers, it's difficult. Like, this is the aforementioned heritage station issue they had with the team. The numbers suggest people are used to tuning into 590 for their sports radio and they still do. Radio is all about habit. So it's not about talent.

I just think the other way around, it would make sense. I would think it would make sense for 1050 to look at some of these established people on 590 and see if you can woo them to the, the bell media dark side. It simply comes down to gazintas. How much? And you know what gazintas are, I assume. Money.

Two goes into four, four goes into eight. There you go. There you go. So it always comes down. I'm a little slow. You know what? People in radio are no different than accountants. Who's going to pay me the most?

And if an offer is put on the table that's attractive, then you look at it. But that doesn't mean that there isn't. So I don't have any breaking news that you've admitted to collusion here. There's nothing exciting happening. No, there was no collusion. Although I do think there may have been a bit of a hands-off approach between Bell and Rogers. Because it would keep salaries down if you didn't have to match

or beat other competitive offers like that. Yeah, but you know, we're in the sports business. Am I making, yeah. You know what? We want to win. All right. So there's very few free agents or UFAs or offer sheets. You notice here, this is the part of the podcast

where the hot seat gets hotter. Do you feel it getting warming up? Do you feel the hot seat? No, I think the furnace came on, but other than that, I'm fine. So Justin Trudeau, uh, when he was asked why half his cabinet was female, his response started with, uh, because it's 2015. There you go. Great answer. Yeah. Great answer. But does the fan know it's 2015?

I only ask that because as a guy who still tunes into the fan, uh, not a lot of female voices on that station. Well, I can't answer for the fan. I can tell you that at Sirius, you know, I took over the NHL channel in mid September. We have Michelle Sterino who hosts shows on weekends and evenings. And I've started using Andy Petrillo to co-host on, on Mondays.

I can't answer for the fan. I do think it's like anything else. You, you try and hire the best people you can for, for the fan. I do think it's like anything else. You try and hire the best people you can for the job. Now, having said that, and having said it's 2015, there is still, I think, an element of guys believe, you know, the fan used to be a clubhouse. It was a clubhouse.

And it's a guys- only clubhouse because basically men are boys and there was it was we put the fabulous sports babe on right in 1996 i want to say um and you know what for a couple of years she she was great got numbers so the right people but there's a certain amount and less so now of if if women don't see other women doing those jobs then they don't believe they can do it i happen to you know even even an old age now not necessarily believe that and barb to julia who's a big part of the fan for a lot of years she was on the morning show she had a show she co-hosted shows. So she was a big part of the radio station, but you also have to get the most qualified people. These days, that is no

longer a male bastion. So, you know, and you have to take a bit of a leap of faith, but guys didn't, you know, simply put, and this guys just didn't want to hear women on their sports station. And I hate to be so, you know, blanket statement on it, but that's the way it was. It isn't that way anymore. You mentioned Barb DiGiulio, which is really a great example of, you know, people enjoyed hearing Barb on the Fan 590 for at least two decades, I believe.

And she's been on the show and now she's on 1010 with the show, but she was, you know, unexpectedly let go from her gig at the Fan 590. Yes. And then, so she was like a lone female voice, I think, at the time. And then she was let go. And I'm not counting like traffic reporters. I don't think, I'm not going to just, with all due respect, the traffic reporters who do a great job, but I'm not counting them, that's all. Because there are some female traffic reporters.

I love when somebody else puts their foot in it instead of me. Yeah. That's usually my job are some female traffic reporters somebody else puts their foot in it instead of me yeah that's my usually my job love the traffic reporters but uh there's also this is the new morning show there the dean blundell show had a female voice i think her name is kayla i hope kayla harris there you go and then i got word that she was uh let go i just it just feels like i don't know well i i don't know. Well, I don't know. I have no idea. Feels like a caveman going on in sports radio. I think, you know, there's still a lot of scratching and spitting going on. No, no question.

I have no idea why that, you know, that happened, but I'm sure that, you know, there's always a reason. And you were gone. You were not at the fan when DiGiulio left. I was not at the fan when DiGiulio left. I was not at the fan. So Don Collins was the program director. There were still a few, quite a few left after I did. Yeah. So DiGiulio, I think, I can't remember if the same day,

it might've been the same day actually, where like Howard Berger and Gord Stelic and Landry, like there was a big wave. Mike Hogan, Doug Faraway. Yeah, there's quite a few. Did you ever have to, like, I'm just wondering from a program director's perspective, like those have got to be tough days. They are tough days.

Did you ever have a day like that? You know what? Over the years, yes. Not as deep. Again, if I had good people, I'm lazy. You know, why am I going to put myself through that? If it ain't broken, don't fix it. If it ain't broken in some ways, don't fix it.

And my job was to coach. My job is to hire people and help them be what it is they want to be. That's, in my opinion, what leadership is, and that's always what I try to do. I'm not a hero. It's just that's the way I was built. But over the years, you have to make changes to your business, and you hope that you're advancing your business by making those changes. But it's never easy, and anybody who says they enjoy it is either lying or they're lying.

Or they're a sociopath. Well, that's the other option. I read somewhere there's a very high percentage of CEOs or whatever are sociopaths. It's part of the makeup you need to be. I think you have to be. If you care or are too emotionally invested or whatever, you don't make the tough decisions. And in fairness, I was emotionally invested in the people I had spent a long time working with. It was a family to me.

But you still had to make those decisions because of your responsibilities to the company. How is Howard Berger? So Howard Berger now blogs. And I can't remember. Oh, my goodness. The Berger Bytes. Berger Bytes. I was going to say.

Yeah. Bergerbytes.ca. And Bytes is B-Y-T-E-S. You get the connection. Very clever. Very digital. I like that. Even I got that.

Yeah. So what kind of guy was, because you spent years with Howard Berger, what kind of guy was he? Howard was a great guy. You know what? Howard was a bulldog. If there was a better reporter out there in a lot of those years, I don't know who it was. I mean, this guy chased Gary Bettman down the street and got in the cab with him. Howard was a bulldog and still is a bulldog. Nobody, you know, he's got tremendous hockey knowledge. He's a lifelong

Leafs fan and knows everything there is to know about the Leafs. You know, Howard and I had our battles because we both have strong personalities and come from a bit of the same place, but you know, we, I have tremendous respect for Howard.

Bob McCowan. Speaking of some things that don't change that much. Don't know him. Never heard of him. Never heard of him. I should educate you. Yeah. There were recent, I think it was Dave Schultz

who wrote something in The Globe about Bob McCowan's bored. Did you read? You must. Of course you read these articles. Oh, sure. How could you not? Tell me a bit about your relationship with Bob

and do you think he's bored? And then this whole thing of Brunt, like, can, we go way back, needless to say, and I think our first conversation we were yelling at each other because he was doing Jay's talk and he wanted more money, and surprisingly I didn't want to give him more money, and I hadn't been on the job very long. But I do remember standing outside at the time Sky Dome yelling at each other about it may have been $25, and we've been fine ever since. been 25 bucks. Um, and we've been fine ever since. Uh, uh, we had our battles because, you know,

Bob is one of, uh, if not the best, uh, radio people have ever worked with. The only other guy I worked with that would compare is, was out in Vancouver, a guy by the name of Fred Latrimo, uh, who recently passed away, sadly, uh, but a tremendous broadcaster. And Bob is the best. And I tried to balance his needs, wants, and desires with my needs, wants, and desires, but I trusted his instincts. And Bob and I are good friends. I talked to him yesterday, as a matter of fact.

Next time you talk to him, tell him to come do Toronto Mike's podcast. Yeah, he's not going to do that. I'm more excited. You never know. Stranger things have happened. I can say, for Bob, I will say this. Yeah. How much? But Bob is, you know, Bob is still the best one.

Bob's engaged. And listen, he's been doing it 40 years. It's, you know, to not be a little bit bored of it, he's probably, you know, as we like to to say he's taken 100,000 phone calls, most of them from Gus and Scarborough. So, you know, if you do anything that long, but when he's engaged, and he's engaged more now than I've heard him over the past little while, and I think he would say the same thing, who's better?

And he always delivered the numbers, right? And he always delivered the numbers. Which is really important in this business. Sports radio is a format that grew out of afternoon drive. Even in New York, in Denver, in Dallas, it was never the morning show. It was always afternoon drive where the format grew from because there's less compelling,

interesting content on in the afternoons than there is in the morning. All the, you know, the resources go into morning shows. So, you know, Bob still owns that time slot. And knowing Bob McCow and the way you know him, the ego is bruised potentially by this Tim and Sid promotion and, and moved that kind of, they go against each other, but Tim and Sid are not on the radio. Tim and Sid are just on the television. Well, you know, I, I'm not sure if it's, I'm not sure bruised is, is the right word. I, you know, he, um,

Bob is, Bob was on top of the roost for a long, long time and still is. Um, I think he just, you know, sometimes he looks for those things to. Some sandpaper. Well, yeah, a little bit. A little bit to kind of keep him motivated as well. But the fallout, it seems like, as reading from the Schultz in between the lines, it sounds like the fallout with Brunt seems to come from here.

Like Brunt's going to do Tim and Sid or something. Well, you know, that was what was in the paper. Sure, sure. But, you know, I've read David and I know David well enough to know that. I've talked to him enough to know that guys are going to write what they're going to write, whether it's right or not. But what we do know is not speculative. We do know Brunt doesn't do primetime sports anymore.

No. And that's okay, too. You know what? Everything has a shelf life and if, and, and now Brent is, you know, being used in so many more different ways. Um, and I think perhaps he got, and I don't know, you know, maybe he got to the point where it was okay. It's a time for, time for a change for me as well.

And we, you know, the, the young listeners always like the, this desired commodity and, and, And older guys like you and me might gravitate towards a primetime sports at Bob McCowan. But the younger folks, younger guys might like Tim and Sid better. And do you think that there's a grooming here for the next phase, which is sort of moving away from Bobcat and maybe Tim and Sid taking over that time slot? Sure, why not? I mean, you know, uh, uh, what the long-term plan is internally. Uh, I'm not sure. I do know that, you know, Sportsnet needed to do something between, uh, on the regionals between five and seven, that wasn't going to be a new show.

So it made sense. Do you think, uh, I always wondered why, why not record the Tim and Sid show and somehow package that into a radio show as well? Like, is that, it's just, that's not what it is? Well, it isn't what it is. It's so reliant on visuals now. And where would you put it?

So do you take something off during the next day to air it? Do you not run play-by-play at night? Right. Where would you put it? That's a good question. Okay. Uh, thank you.

And on Twitter, somebody wants, could you please reveal, uh, how much money is, uh, Bobcat making right now? Twitter question.

Bob makes all of it. That's a very, very good. You know, I know what I paid him. I don't know what he's making now. Uh, I wouldn't ask.

And, uh, and he hasn't told me. He's doing all right. Him and Derringer both. I don't think we're going to have to sell pencils on the street corner for them. Jeff Blair, I think when Jeff, did Jeff Blair start

when you were programming? Yes, yeah, I put Jeff on the air. Okay. I think Jeff Blair might be the most improved radio broadcaster on the channel. Jeff has worked hard at it. Jeff and I spent a lot of time together talking about it. So it's your doing.

Yeah, I guess so. Kudos to you. Well, thanks. You know, it's what I do. I also brought Chuck Swirsky and Jack Armstrong into town, but nobody pats me on the back for that. So, you know, Jeff's worked hard at it, wants to be great. He's a smart guy.

Is he, you know, a slick broadcaster? I think even he would say no but uh he is uh he's come leaps and bounds you know at the beginning i remember there were a lot more ums and arms like he you know it's just and i know is when i listen back to my shows and i'm not a professional by any means because that requires getting paid to be a professional you need to get paid for doing it but i'll listen back to every episode to try to improve and what gets me is yeah i get like mike why are you doing these ums like silence is better an um. It's easy to fall into those crutches and that's what they are. Whether it's people who say like, or, you know, it's a crutch and, uh, and it just

takes time to break habits. He's come along. He's much more confident in what he's doing as well. Mileage is the most important thing. If you can get your license, but if you don't drive the car, you're not going to get any better at it. One big change of the fans since you left is regarding the morning show. And Brady and Walker had the morning show, and they seemed to produce pretty good numbers. You mentioned the if it's not broken, don't fix it thing. The numbers I saw anyways were pretty good for a morning show on the fan.

And Brady and Walker were doing quite well. And they were basically booted to the afternoons to make way for a new morning show with Dean Blundell, who, of course, is famous from his 102.1 show for like 14 years. So my question for you is, if you were program director, would you have made the same move?

Well, you know what? It's not fair for me to answer that. I don't know who and or what was available at the time. You know, again, I wasn't there, so I was playing golf mostly for a few years. Nice. Yeah, it was great. I miss those days. But if Tim and Sid were going to TV, now you had a hole in your afternoon show,

But if Tim and Sid were going to TV, now you had a hole in your afternoon show, in your afternoon lineup, all right, how do we strengthen both? There's no question Dean is a seriously good broadcaster, whether or not people on anti-social media believe that or not is a different question. Um, and so if you can improve your lineup by bringing in broadcasters who have a following, um, there are lots of broadcasters have got themselves into trouble and been fine. And, um, and so the, the pushback on Dean, as I said, from anti-social media, which is mostly what it seemed, um, somewhat unfair, I think, but under, I understand. So what I've made the same move, I don't know. I didn't have to think about it. And I think anything that you can do that strengthens your overall lineup,

you do. Well, essentially the, the Blundell brand, if you will, was, I mean, he had produced excellent numbers at a gig, a morning gig in the same city previously. It was a rock, it was a different show, of course. John Derringer made the transition. John Derringer made that transition. He was a rock and roll jock with plenty on his plate and a reputation, but he made the transition. So to say that other people can't do it is just wrong.

Do you listen to the Dean Blundell Morning Show? I do. I mean, I listen to my channel mostly. And for a long time there, I was listening to the MLB channel a lot on SiriusXM, Channel 91 for the NHL channel. Please buy a subscription. But I listen to all the morning shows. I listen to the morning show on TSN I listen to the Blundell

I'll listen to CHFI occasionally to hear what my friends Aaron and Mike are doing Aaron's been on the show Aaron's a lovely lady I just think the world of her as I do with Coop and as I like to say to Coop I listened to you when I was a little boy I'd love to have Coop on

he was going to come on and then his wife had to deal with some health issues so we postponed it. You know what? He's got the best stories of all. I used to hear him on 680 CFTR when I was a kid. He was a chum for a long time. In fact, the station I worked for in Vancouver was a chum station. It was owned and operated

by chums. But he was on the Ferris wheel and he... Was he on the Ferris? No, but he did the April Fool's thing but he was on the Ferris wheel and, uh, he, uh, was he on the fair? No, but he, he did. He did.

Who was on the Ferris wheel though? Uh, cause somebody was on the Ferris wheel. Somebody was on that Ferris. It might've been Coop. I think it was Coop. Yeah, it might've been.

And then he, of course he had the police come in on an April fool's day. I got to get those stories from him. All right. So, so Dean Blundell, uh, we'll move on from that.

I was just curious how he was doing. You know what? I think it's, it's coming along. It takes five years for a morning show to establish. If you don't have the patience to, uh, to wait it out, then, um, shame on you for making the move in the first place. And hypothetically, if you had a host who brought in numbers, but was a part of my French was an asshole, bad team player. Yeah.

As a program director, do you tolerate his failings there because he produces the number within reason, obviously? Within reason, yes. Of course. Absolutely. That's the Gian Gomeschi caveat we have to throw there within reason. Within reason. Yeah. I mean, yeah.

But you'll tolerate prickly assholes within reason if they produce numbers. My, you know, what I like to do is get to know them well enough so that they stop being a prickly asshole. That's a good idea. And try and work with them to make them more comfortable and explain to them that their ego isn't necessarily the most important thing on the planet. You mentioned the Twitter anti-social media. Should a program director get involved with how a personality, a host, tweets? Like, does this ever fall into the realm of program director? Yes.

You know, and this is just my opinion. You're representing your brand. Your brand has to fall kind of in line with my brand being the company or, or the radio station or the television, uh, television station. Why would you want to build your brand that way? What is the upside that being a dick on Twitter? Have you ever had a conversation with somebody about their Twitter behavior? Yes.

Who? No. Who? No. You know, I thought I'd catch you. Now that you've been here so long, maybe you're weakening. Yeah, I thought I was uncomfortable. You're tired now. And amnesia, the sometimes. And what did you say?

Sorry to people, I'm sorry. Tell me, what exactly did you say to Damien Cox about his Twitter behavior? I never talked to him. By the time I left, when I left the fan, you know, Twitter was there, but it wasn't a big deal. You know, and I was old and didn't know much about it. I just think that people who are on the air or in the public eye have a brand. If you're going to be successful, you better build your brand in a way

that's going to attract the most you can critical mass-wise. So why would you be a dick on Twitter? What is the upside? Right. And today you're, you mentioned you're the program director at NHL network radio on Sirius XM. Yes. Great offices in Liberty village.

Cause I've been there a few times. Cause that's the same building that Todd Shapiro broadcast from. Yeah. The studio right beside ours. It's not exactly handy. I live way North of the city. Oh no. so the three hours a day in the car is oh no it's starting to get to me oh sorry i meant handy for me if i were to bike there which is yeah you could bike there so why did you bite me uh uh yeah but i mean liberty village is uh it's a it's a great area i'd never

live there but it's a great area no you're come on. You and I are too old to live in Liberty Village. We absolutely are. Come on. But yeah, speaking of 88.1, they broadcast from Liberty Village. There's a house there. They got their broadcast. Yeah, they're not far from where we are. If you ever drop by, say hi to Raina for me. I'll do

that. She's lovely. Chancellor, I'm not going to do that, but if I do. And I'm sorry for stealing. I see we've gone a little over because I had more questions. Do I get overtime pay for this? You'll get a percentage more than you were going to get. Okay, so a looney perhaps. I'll take that. I don't mind.

Any final thoughts? Anything you want to share with your fans? People loved it when you used to jump onto the 590 and talk. You know, my attitude was always the radio station wasn't mine. The radio station belongs to the listeners, and I was the guy that was sitting there taking the heat and trying to give out the credit. Thank you very much for doing this.

Thanks, Mike. It was fun. You're not just saying that. No, I am just saying that. No, I love talking radio. It's been my life for 44 years. Be careful. It might make you come back. Okay. That's not that big for 44 years. Be careful. I might make you come back. Okay. That's not that big of a problem. And that brings us to the end of our 141st show.

You can follow me on Twitter at Toronto Mike. And Nelson is on the anti-social media at N Millman. N as in Nelson. Yeah, very clever, I thought. Not a coincidence. Yeah. But you don't really tweet that much, I got to say. No, not that much.

Every now and then. Every now and then. What I do is I write them and then delete them. I wish more people would. See you all next week. I want to take a streetcar downtown Read Andrew Miller and wander around