Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Pamela Wallin: Toronto Mike'd #1416

Episode Date: January 23, 2024

In this 1416th episode of Toronto Mike'd, Mike chats with Canadian Senator Pamela Wallin about her lengthy career in media, how she became a Senator, and her beloved Kitty. Toronto Mike'd is proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, Ridley Funeral Home, The Advantaged Investor podcast from Raymond James Canada and Electronic Products Recycling Association.

Meow! What up, Mike? Toronto! VK on the beat, check! I'm in Toronto where you wanna get the city love I'm from Toronto where you wanna get the city love I'm a Toronto Mike, we wanna get the city love My city love me back, for my city love

I'm in Toronto where you wanna get the city love I'm a Toronto Mike, we wanna get the city love I'm a Toronto Mike, we wanna get the city love Welcome to episode 1416 of Toronto Mic'd! Proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, a fiercely independent craft brewery who believes in supporting communities, good times, and brewing amazing beer. Order online for free local home delivery in the GTA Palma Pasta Enjoy the taste of fresh, homemade Italian pasta and entrees from Palma Pasta in Mississauga and Oakville RecycleMyElectronics.ca Committing to our planet's future means properly recycling our electronics

of the past. The Advantage Investor podcast from Raymond James Canada. Valuable perspective for Canadian investors who want to remain knowledgeable, informed and focused on long-term success and Ridley Funeral Home, pillars of the community since 1921. Today, making her Toronto mic debut is Pamela Wallin. Pamela. Hi. How are you? I'm good. I was just having a little bit of a computer meltdown there, but I think I'm good now. Whereabouts in the universe do we find you today? Where are you? I'm at Fishing Lake, Saskatchewan, in literally the middle of nowhere. It's about 35 below. Just chilly.

It's about 35 below. Just chilly. Well, I mean, I can my fire you can see right there in my belly. So is keeping me warm. It's got my back as it were. But can you even go for a walk in that temperature? Like I wouldn't go for long unless my face was covered. Yeah, like it's you can get around. You have to, you know know keep your car plugged in and

do all of that but it's just your skin I wouldn't be out much longer than 10 minutes. Yeah wild okay because I mean here in Toronto you know what it's like in Toronto if it's minus 10 we just complain minus 10 oh my goodness like minus 35. Yeah, no, no. And we have this. I mean, it's actually not. I think the only reason that everybody is kind of really spending so much time on the weather is because of the vote in Iowa last night, but also when Toronto gets cold, then they go, Oh my God, what's the rest of the world look like? Right. And then, right. And then it becomes an issue. So,

so how long have you lived on that lake? Um, almost all my life. Uh, but it was a, uh, my dad built this, uh, in the fifties. And it was just as like a little summer cabin. We call them cabins here. Um, and then about, I don't know, 10 years ago, no, maybe 20 years ago, I put a little addition on, but then 10 years ago, I did it properly so that I've got a kitchen and a bathroom and, you know, a laundry room with a washer and dryer so that I don't have to go to town. So it's really good. I love it here winter and summer. I just I love it. No good for you. I mean, that's it looks so cozy. Like

I'm just looking at it now and it's like it's out of like it is a postcard. Like that where you can see the flowers in the book. That's actually a hide a bad for when the nieces and nephews come. And then that's my pot belly stove, which is from an old train station. Wow. You see the little silver thing around there, right there. Yeah. That's where people came into the train station and hung their mitts and their scarves that were wet, like it's really, and this thing is going like you get, you get warm.

Okay. And that that book, of course, that's uh talking points for cats, true tales and life lessons from a purring companion. That's it. Okay. As you can imagine, I have questions about kitty. Pamela, I'm wondering though, can I, because I'm so fascinated with the Canadian media landscape. Can I grill you with a little media, media career stuff? Yes, you can do. And just, just like Kitty is no longer here, right? Yeah, right. And you never replaced Kitty, right? There was never a moment where you did not replace Kitty. I could not replace Kitty replace kitty i mean maybe when i'm old and retired i'll i'll do something but there's too much but that's a long way off you don't have you know 45 years here come on yeah at least 45 years yeah absolutely no you can ask me anything you

want or is this visual or just audio i'm thinking both like i am recording i think i'm thinking both in that way people can see can also see this. We've referenced all these things that they might want to take a peek at. So but I will admit 99.9% of people will just hear us on the podcast. So no visual. Okay. So you'll just we'll just start again and you will then. Well no actually the Toronto mic is sort of a I just did this I had

Who was on Dave Thomas and Ian Thomas? Okay? Okay? Okay yesterday and we're actually already recording so it's okay All right, hold my hand Pamela. It's like a journey here But I'm gonna take you back to the and I don't want to date you here But I'm taking you back well depends on how we're dating here but I'm gonna take you you might want to date me right like I'm not saying I want to but I'm taking you back to the year of my birth here okay yeah I'm curious how you ended up on CBC radio back in 74 this is like your first foray into into our media landscape right okay so this is a hundred ago. So I went to university. I became a psychology and a social worker

and my very first job was as a social worker in the Prince Albert Maximum Security Penitentiary. And a friend of mine that I'd gone to university with called me in Prince Albert and said, the host of my Radio No noon talk show has fallen ill. Can you ask your boss if you can get in the car and come down here? Not because I had any experience in radio, but because I'd been very active on campus at the Women's Center and whatnot. So I'd done a lot of public speaking. So I asked my boss and he said, sure. So I went down to fill in on this show for three days

and I walked into the building and I don't know, I was just struck. I'd never thought of journalism as a career. There weren't a lot of women in it. And it was all pre-Watergate where it became a very sexy thing to do, right? So I just, I stayed. I went back up, packed up my bags and in Prince Albert and came back and the rest is history, like radio, print, television, podcasts, the whole thing. Right. So the CBC radio news journalism gig that you scored there in 1974. This is this is how you get, you

know, yourself to Toronto, right? I mean, I guess the Ottawa borough of the Toronto Star. So the way I see it, because I'm eager to get you to Canada AM, because I got some questions. Okay, so I went to I went to Ottawa to do radio after I did radio in Regina, I then went to Ottawa to do radio. Then I went to Toronto. I then went to Ottawa to do radio. Then I went to Toronto. Then I went to work for the Toronto Star. Then Toronto Star sent me back to the Ottawa Bureau.

And I was filling, I was a guest on a show called The Question Period, which is still on every Sunday. Bruce Phillips was the host and there were three print reporters and Bruce. And after first show I was on he said to me, were you not afraid of the camera? And I said, Bruce I'm sorry did I do something wrong? I said I forgot all I forgot that it was there so I wasn't thinking about it and he said okay you need to get into television because it gives everybody else a heart attack and you don't even care about the camera.

So anyway, literally within weeks, his boss and soon mind on camera and phoned and said, okay, let's you need to get into TV. So I worked in Ottawa for a bit and then they brought me to Toronto where along with Norm Perry, I co-hosted Canada M. And it was just like, you know, if you were prepared to work 22 hours a day, seven days a week, you know, you could do stuff that was really interesting. And it was, and you know know you go through all these changes

I I had long hair with a ponytail and I didn't wear any makeup because that would have been you know a violation of whatever principle it was And then you look at yourself on camera without makeup and you go, okay Man, I've been need that if I'm gonna be in TV, right? So anyway, the rest was just amazing my first I'm going to be in TV, right? So anyway, the rest was just amazing. My first foreign assignment there was Don called me and the boss and he said, you've got to go to Argentina, the Falklands war, which of course you won't even know what that is because you're 12. I assure you, I know, I know exactly what that is. Of course. So I got sent to Argentina and I was supposed to go there for three, you know, a fill in because one of the reporters laughed.

I won't get into all the gruesome story. Well, that's the good stuff. And so anyway, I ended up staying three months and, you know, met my husband. He was the cameraman, you know, did all it was just life was if as I say, quite literally, if you were prepared to say yes, and work hard and go where they asked you to go, you could see the world and really, really uncover some interesting things. My husband and I went to on our honeymoon to Thailand at one point and we got, just as we were checking into the hotel, there was a message from Dawn, our boss saying,

don't unpack, go to the Philippines, there's a coup. So you know, I spent my honeymoon in the Philippines covering a coup. So who gets to do that? Only somebody that's really lucky. Okay. Now, so at Canada AM, I'm wondering if you could spend a moment and a couple of people I'm curious about, but Norm Perry is one. What was it like working with Norm? Norm is, I still see him. I saw him just before Christmas. We always have lunch

and keep in touch. He is the sweetest, most genuine guy you're ever going to meet. He lives a very focused life. We used to tease him because when he would read his notes, he'd have different highlighters, you know, red for this and blue for that. And it was his own. I mean, you got to remember we were doing this pre cell phones, pre google, pre wikipedia. Like we actually went to libraries and did research. So he was just very generous to me, very generous because I didn't really know anything about television and he just you know we kind of divvied things up and he liked the international stuff and I like the domestic stuff and the Can-us stuff so we had a really good relationship and and still friends today. That's good to hear

I'm curious if you're still friendly with JD Roberts. I Saw him when last time I saw him was in New York when I went there as Consul General and he wasn't at Fox, maybe he was at Fox and I can't remember. But I phoned him and invited him to lunch and he came and we had a good reconnection and he's now very, you know, extremely successful. It's hard to believe JD Roberts is now that John Roberts is, I mean, he was the new music guy. Yeah, he was, he was, and, and he and I, you know, we co-hosted that program and it wasn't

always the easiest, um, I don't think for either one of us, but because it was so, there was so much work, like you worked all the time, and then it's different now. I think they've got studio producers, and they've got full research compliments and everything. We really didn't have the luxury of that then. So you did a lot of your own work,

but I'm pleased, you know, I'm pleased to see how his world has turned. I, you know, I just saw him yesterday getting ready for the caucuses and he's there, right? So the business takes us all in very different directions, right? You never really never know where you're going to land. Well, on that note, okay, so we've got you here, you're comfy at CTV, you're doing some interesting things, but suddenly there's this, whoa, this exciting thing is going to happen. How did CBC poach you? Like, how did that go down? It was all very secretive and all of that because, um, you know, it's just, it's kind

of the way they play the game there. Um, I had done a lot of things at CTV and I'd been Ottawa bureau chief and I'd done Canada AM and I'd done the weekend news and I'd, you know, all of these things. And, and, and they sort of approached and said, would you think about this? Cause they were doing this new show and Barbara from had passed away and they had, you know, the, the news portion with Peter and, and the journal with Barbara. And it was, you know, in retrospect, it was a riskier thing to do than I thought of it at the time. And then they tried to merge the hour.

And so Peter and I were co-hosts. And that's, you know, for a guy that has been on his own for a long time, that's hard. And I also, from my part, was used to being way more independent. At CBC, there's a real editorial control from the top down. My notion is that you should go out and find out what the story is and then report it, as opposed to deciding what the story is and then report it, as opposed to deciding what the story is and then going out

and finding people who will tell you what it is. Right. You know, so, and I don't mean, you know, there's a lot of really good journalists inside the CBC, but the system was just so the antithesis of what I was used to. So it was not a marriage made in heaven. So this primetime news didn't do well. This format.

It didn't do well. They put it at 10 o'clock and then they moved it to 9 o'clock. And it was only after the fact that I discovered that they had actually done no research on that, no audience research to find out whether anybody was ready to watch the news at nine o'clock and wanted it at nine o'clock and wanted co-hosts and wanted all of this, right? So it went through several incarnations and then, you know, that was the end of that. And then I guess this is when the National Magazine, so I guess they decide, OK, let's let's return Peter Mansbridge to the national.

Yeah. And then you would do, I guess, instead of the journal, it would be national interviews on the other end. But, you know, it's just actually the issue is where where I came from at CTV and other places, news and current affairs are it's one world, right? It's one world. And because you just don't have the resources or the crews or the people to have these two constructs. And at CBC, that was always a very different, you know, the current affairs world was very different than the news world. And, you know, it just it wasn't, it didn't work for them. It didn't work for me.

Okay, what I'm interested in. So is it fair to say that CBC lets you go? Like, can you let Pamela Wallen go? Did you get a tap on the shoulder? Absolutely. Goodbye, Pamela. They did. Yes. Well, you know, they dressed it up, but no, it was just, you know, we're going to make your life so uncomfortable that you're going to want to go away. Okay. But what I like, I went away.

You went away. You went away. Okay. And then what you see, so I'm very interested in the idea of you're not just going to go be a hired gun, go back to CTV or whatever but you're gonna like Start your own Production company. Is that right Pamela Wall and productions? Yeah, it's what I I have a very good friend that I've worked with

right back to CBC radio days in Ottawa, his name is Jack Fleishman and We worked CBC radio CTV AM, the whole nine yards. Just a lifelong friend. So I called him and I said, look, I don't want to give up on journalism. This is my life, right? I love this, but I'm not very good. You know, there's no real estate at CTV and the CBC structure is not one that I can abide. It's just not how I can do business. And another friend of mine that I'd had lunch with at one point, and a businessman, very successful businessman,

and I had run this idea past him and I said, I don't really know anything about running a business. And he said, can you balance your checkbook? And I said, I can, I don't, but yes, I can. I'm capable of it. And he said, that's what running a business is. More has to come in than goes out. It's pretty simple.

So I had that conversation with Jack and, um, and he, we went to CBC news world, um, which was just fledgling at that point and, uh, proposed a show and did it, uh, independently, you know, first in partnership with them and then independently, you know, first in partnership with them and then independently. And then we sold, took the show to CTV, we did programs for global. It was kind of the first time that you could produce news or current affairs for multiple hosts, right? Nobody had done that. You were always in house if you were doing as your current affairs. And then we also kind of branched in when the early days of the internet,

I mean, we had Pamela's picks at the same time that Oprah was doing her book thing, right? And we went in to have a conversation with whatever the pre-indigo, whatever the book. Chapters? Chapters, I guess it was called then you're right. Thank you. And we said, here's the deal.

This is what we're going to do and this is how we propose for your website and this and that. And he said, you know, what do you want to get paid? And I said, I have no idea. I said, what do you want to pay us? And he said, I have no idea. Nobody's ever done this before. So, you know, it was really a lot of things that I felt we were inventing and as we went along and it was really, it was exciting and it was interesting. And I just don't regret one second of it. Nor should you. I mean, what's more exciting

than having no blueprint to follow? I've literally been there. It's like, OK, I'm going to I'm going to create the blueprint now. Yeah. And so that's what we did. And we just I mean, professionally, that was a really interesting time because you had the business side of it. And Jack was running some other aspects of the business, which is it was sort of the early days of remote meetings. And because we had a facility, we were able to do that kind of zoom, pre zoom. And you know, just it was so he was doing interesting things.

We had the show. I mean, we had everybody from, you know, prime ministers to elephants and tigers on our set, right? I mean, we just, we did everything that struck us. And, and when you have an hour of live television, you know, that's demanding five nights a week. You ought to do a lot of reading. You got to do a lot of homework because there are always cases where the guest doesn't speak. Stuff happens and you've got to be able to, you have got to have read the book because you might be the one doing all the talking. No, absolutely. And I'm curious now, so Pamela Wallin live, you talked to all these, you know, newsmakers and celebrities and other interesting personalities.

Looking back, who's your all-time favorite guest? Well, that's hard. Because it's not the famous ones and sometimes the famous ones let you down. Like Carl Bernstein, you know, a hero, a journalistic hero. And I always went into the green room before a broadcast because you've got to have a live show. So you've got to connect. It's got to be some kind of connection with people. And because they might've come from the airport

or whatever, they've had a bad day, you know, they've got to get that out of their system. And he was just awful. He was just rude. And I said, look, he'd written a book about something that was a little odd. And I said, just to situate, obviously, for the audience, I'm going to remind everybody that you're the Bernstein in Woodward and Bernstein and he got mad, you know, we didn't want to talk about that. And it's just, I don't know, you just, you never know. And then, and then there are just other people who come in and truly surprise you, you know, a couple whose wife, he was a singer songwriter and they had been in a car accident and she was you know, considered that she wasn't going to, you know, she wasn't going to make it

and she would never recover. And there they were five years later sitting together on our set and it was all about, they had, they were from the East Coast and so they spent a lot of time on their boat so he created a bedroom in their home that was like a birth on a boat and worked with the people that were doing the rehab and and he willed her back to life. And that love story was just like so profound. So, you never know what you're gonna find, right? It's just, it's always, people are always so amazing to me. Yeah, sounds beautiful. Now, you reference these celebrities or famous people,

if you will, who come on and, oh, I don't want to talk about that big thing that I'm famous for. Right, right. Like, it's sort of like if Pamela Wallen came on your show and said, I'm only talking about felines. This is only talking about cats. Right. Well, this was I'm going to share with you was an initial concern I had because it's

like, oh, Pamela Wallen has a new book on cats and she wants to talk about them. Like, oh, I would talk to Pamela Wallen about cats, but I'm, I can't talk to Pamela Wallen and just talk about cats. And here we are covering some nice grounds. So thank you. I get that. All right. Totally. It's fair. But we are get make no mistake, Pamela. I want to talk about your kitty, but hold on here Yeah, a question did come in from a listener when I I put on Twitter that Pamela Wallin was making her Toronto mic debut Chris fell wrote in this is a big deal. Congratulations. You're now an FOTM by the way friend of Toronto mic'd So you can add that. Okay, that's great. Put that in your trophy case. Okay, Chris fell writes in, please ask her about hosting

the Canadian version of who wants to be a millionaire. I was always curious why it was a one time thing. Tell us about that was a franchise that started in in the UK. And then ABC bought the North American rights. So it was actually not possible to do a standalone Canadian show. But they, so we couldn't create a set here or anything. So they said you can come down and serve as a one-off, do a couple of shows and use the set and Regis and the whole gang. So it was really, it was just so incredible. So we ran this, CTV ran this contest and Canadians all across applied and came. And sorry, I've got a cold, so I'm really losing my voice here. So we all went down, flew everybody down to New York. I don't think there was one of the contestants that had ever been to New York and I'm pretty sure none of them

had ever really been outside of Canada. So we take them to New York and it was just extraordinary. And the thing I've got to say about these Canadian contestants, they didn't really care about the million bucks. Their prize was that they got to have this incredible experience. And so nobody, of course, did a William win a million bucks, but we had such fun doing it and they were so wonderfully engaged and thrilled and happy and we all had a wonderful experience. So you know, and I don't mean that to sound like, you know, it was somehow, um, you know, the, the, the bronze.

I don't mean that it was just over the course of time, you know, if we'd done a hundred shows there would have been a millionaire winner We did three right site Anyway, it was a really interesting experience and and everybody said to me at the same time Like you're supposed to be a serious news journalism a journalist. You know, what are you doing doing? Who wants to be a millionaire? But To me journalism is about people. It's always about people. And this is about people. This is about people in their stories. And so it's

all the same to me. And I was thrilled to do it. Amazing. Okay, so everybody knows, everybody knows Pamela Wallin is a Canadian senator. Okay. But between this like media career and will include, you know, who wants to be a millionaire in there, even though that's, that's you being a game show host. But like you said, it's telling stories about people and everything. But there's a in between these two events, you served as a council general of Canada in New York from 2002 to 2006. So So tell me about that. So a group of people, Senator Jerry Grafstein and some others, after the events of 9-11, they wanted to show

our, the Canadian support for Americans. So there was a painting, Charlie Pachter's famous painting of the two flags intertwined. So the theory was a group of people were going to go down and present this painting to Rudy Giuliani, who was the mayor, and the fire Canadian firemen were going to bring money and Canadian cops and police were going to come and just show their support. And so they that's how it all started. Then it turned out people sort of heard about it and were interested. And so they came to us at the at my production company and said, you know, do you guys know how to do this if it turns into an event? So we said, sure. And, you know, Canadian musicians everywhere, Murray McLaughlin, all these people just volunteered and said, you know, we want to be there. And there are lots of expats in New York.

And so it turned out Shelley Ambrose who worked with me then and in many other places too, she said, before we start this, she said, go and take a look. This was at the Roseland Ballroom in New York. She said, just go outside and walk around. And what started out as a half a dozen people turned into about 24,000 people lined up on the streets around. So, you know, we had a, uh, an inter, uh, monitors that were outside so people could see it.

And it was just an extraordinary thing. Prime Minister Christian came and his wife, Aileen, and Rudy Giuliani came and all of these people who were just this outpouring of love between the two countries, because Canadians, certainly in the political world tend to be a little have a little sense of superiority about Americans which has already really bugged me and but the people who came to this didn't feel that they weren't that people they weren't those people and there was at the end and I've told this story before, but at the end of this whole thing, the day was

extraordinary, probably the most extraordinary thing in my life in some ways. And this woman came up to me, I was down on the floor and she was a nurse from Ontario, I think St. Catharines, but I don't remember. And she said, I took a collection in the coffee room before I came and then I got in the car and drove to New York. So she'd worked a 12 hour shift and then she drove to New York. She's had an envelope with, I think, it doesn't matter the amount. And she said, could you get this to a family in need? And I said, yeah, I can. You see, I, it's not just the cold. I get a little choked up because it was such a powerful time. And when people give really from their heart, it's amazing.

Oh yeah. No, absolutely. I mean, you're you're a human being you do you have compassion and that's a moment right there Okay, so are you in are you living in New York from 02 to 06? Oh, no, so then I come back and and the Prime Minister's wife was reading my book That I'd done which was excerpts from the show and she was sharing it with the Prime Minister I'm sure he was thrilled and we were standing on the stage and she was sharing it with the Prime Minister. I'm sure he was thrilled. And we were standing on the stage and she said, you really have a feeling for this place. And I said, half joking, but not really.

I said, I think I might have lived here in an earlier life, but I do, I love New York. And I'd been there to cover stories and whatnot. And then, lo and behold, several months later I get a call from Prime Minister Kretzian and you know he's so easy to emulate, people imitate him all the time, right? So you get this call and you think, okay, am I being punked or what here? So you just wait, you know, but we knew each other. And so it was clear it was him. And he asked if I would go to

New York and be our Consul General. And like, it's a no brainer. It was, of course, I will do that. And it was so important for our country and for theirs that, that there was somebody there at that time that really cared and got it and didn't feel superior. But Pamela, you have a big media career at this point. Like you have to abandon that for this. Right? No question. I, um my well, I wasn't allowed to say anything right away But but when I was I called the staff together and I said, I'm sorry Like I'm going to pay you for as long as I can with what's left over

We had a contract to do a show. I phoned them and said I'm gonna have to cancel the contract. And, and, and I think people got it. I think after nine 11, everybody got that the, the world was a different place. And if you could go and try and make a difference, then you should do that. So there was no question in my mind. Yeah, no, obviously no regrets. Right. Not a one. Quick, quick aside here, because you mentioned Rudy Giuliani. And I'm wondering, like, as you as you watch, you know, the news, and you follow your the world around you,

can you think of a figure who, I mean, sometimes I have this question in my family and it's like, oh, OJ Simpson was a beloved figure and then he murdered two people. There's, okay, so OJ aside maybe, okay. But a fall from grace, because in the following 9-11, as you know, Rudy Giuliani was like America's mayor. What a beloved figure. And today, look at what we read about Rudy Giuliani and how he's in the news.

I'm wondering if you've ever witnessed such a fall from grace. It is a fall from grace, but he also, the fall, and I'm not excusing any of the behavior, the details of which I'm not sure any of us truly know. But the rise of cancel culture that occurred in the Trump and post-Trump era, because those who were so angry and horrified and scared and all of that about what the Trump presidency would mean. It really changed the nature of journalism and politics and the relationship between the two and how we treat people. So his behavior on in many situations I think was quite troubling, very troubling. But I just also have got to say, and I wish it was a better example, but I really have

been troubled and disturbed by what we've been going through for the last eight or ten years about what's acceptable and if you disagree with somebody politically then you need to be canceled and if you have a different point of view it's not legitimate and and I just I just really don't like that side of it I remember and watched what he did. He did an extraordinary thing. And really I think saved that city. And that is where I will give him credit

regardless of what else happens. He stepped up at a time when nobody else could have and nobody else happens. He stepped up at a time when nobody else could have and nobody else did. And he turned that around for millions of people. So if he made some bad choices in his life later and hung around with some people that many people don't like, um, and he, you know, there is no price. I mean, he's paid the ultimate price. There's nothing, there's nothing more that can happen to him. And, you know, before Christmas he was declaring bankruptcy, right? It's sad.

I take no joy or pleasure in that or, or even a, I just think he was an extraordinary man at an extraordinary time and I'm sorry that this has unfolded sorry no that's okay no just a voice there make sure make sure make sure Pamela Wallen is okay you got water there good good good good okay I got water there. Good, good, good, good. Okay. I got water. I'm good. All right. So, and we're almost at kitty time. We're so close, but in... We're so close. I can see kitty from here, okay?

In 2008, then Prime Minister Stephen Harper appoints you to the Canadian Senate. And I need to know, like, did you know this was going to happen? Did you just get a phone call from Stephen Harper? How did this go down? It's again, process. Like after I finished my time as Consul General, I fully intended to stay in New York for the rest of my life,

seeing as I'd lived there in an earlier life. Right, right. And I got a call from From Stephen Harper's office saying would I be part of a five-person panel to look into what we should be doing in Afghanistan John Manley had the pan headed the panel there were five of us and we spent the better part of a year the panel, there were five of us. And we spent the better part of a year going to Afghanistan and going other places and recommended to the Prime Minister what we needed in terms of airlift and what our role should be and all of that. And so I think that's where the paths really crossed.

You know, in terms of me understanding him and him understanding me, he was a very quick study on that stuff. Got it. I went and got some, uh, helicopters for our troops because we took most of our, uh, injuries and losses in the front end when our men and women were driving up and down, um, IED laden roads and losing their arms and legs and lives. We needed airlift and we got a lot of help from the Americans, but they were also busy fighting wars.

So, and people had asked and I'd said, well, sure, that would be interesting. And then you get the call and and you really have to, you know, that was a that was a big decision in a way. And in the way some others weren't because I was never. A partisan. And when you say you want to kind of a citizen

independent and he goes, that's not really what's on offer. Right. Like the reason prime ministers want to kind of a citizen independent and he goes that's not really what's on offer, right? Like the reason prime ministers appoint people to the senate is because they want support for their ideas, right? And legislation. So it was a bit of a, it was a risk, but I, you know, I went in and I was part of the defense committee and I understood the issues that were at hand. So it was a really good fit, you know, you bring your journalism and your all of that to the Consul General job and then you bring all that experience of 9-11 and the prosecution of the war and all of things, you bring that back to our discussion

about, you know, there's, there's been kind of, it feels only in retrospect, can you see it? But there's a connection and a, and a natural arc, um, to things again, right back to the beginning. If, if you're prepared to say yes and work hard. One question, um, I, I, I see pondered about is, uh, you know, why does Canada have a Senate? Okay, so could you maybe succinctly here, since you're so well spoken and you are a Canadian senator, and you've been a Canadian senator since 2009, just in a nutshell, just remind Canadians of the function of the Canadian Senate? We are, and it's such a well-worn clich�, I hate to use it, but it describes it, we're A, the nation's largest think tank, and B, we're the only check and balance on the government

of the day. We are the sober second thought. Every piece of legislation that any government, majority, minority of any party proposes has to go to the Senate. And while the folks in the House of Commons have the unenviable task of having to get elected 365 days a year, all the time, like they don't just get elected election time. They're working and Politics plays a huge role It's it's to us to say hold the phone here guys. There's some problems with this bill and we should look at that and This needs to change or that needs to change. Sometimes they listen, often they don't,

but it's a way to engage the public and make sure at least the voters are aware of what's going on and what's going down so that they can have a view on it. It's important. These are the laws by which we live. But if you're appointed by Stephen Harper, Conservative Party leader, does that mean that's what that means you're a member of the Conservative

Caucus essentially in the Senate? Yeah, you in those days now Prime Minister Trudeau has changed that technically But still if you're appointed by the prime minister of the day, they don't usually appoint people that disagree with them vehemently. In theory, you want open-minded people. And in theory, you want your political leaders to have thick enough skin that they don't take every vote against them personally, but sometimes they do. So yeah, there were caucuses at that time, just two, because the NDP doesn't believe in the Senate.

And now there are four groups. There's a leftover conservative group, there's a leftover liberal group that the prime Minister, that was the ones that he, you know, said you can't be part of the Liberal Caucus anymore. Then there's this group called Independent Senators, which is the group he's appointed. So, you know, variations on independent. And then the group that I belong to, which is called the Canadian senators group, which are new people, liberals, Tories, old. I don't have a party membership. I was obliged to have one briefly and gave it up at the earliest possible opportunity. And so this is a group of people who try to remind ourselves and everybody else of what our basic job is. So that's where I am and the Senate is morphing, but I think it's extremely valuable.

I've had the discussion with many over the years about an elected Senate. I don't believe in an elected Senate. Then you have two warring houses. believe in an elected Senate, then you have two warring houses. We're not supposed to be government. We're supposed to be a check and balance on government. And there is no other way to get us there except to be appointed by those in power. You can have elections for people, but it's the prime minister's prerogative. So we have the leader of our little group was in fact elected as a senator in Alberta, but no Prime Minister acknowledged, well Prime Minister Harper acknowledged that, but this Prime Minister does not acknowledge that and so it's neither here nor there

because it's not up to the provinces. But you know, you could create some other system, but actually it's just a bit of a costly add on. Right? You know, fascinating. This conversation is fascinating because you get the whole media part and then you go to this very interesting, you know, part about the Senate. And now very soon we're going to be talking about felines, cats like amazing. Well, I just envisioned like you're talking about the groups in the Senate and the way you explain it is so clear. But I'm sure in the summer you have a

nice softball tournament, right? Each group competes against each other in softball. Yeah, no, we try to get back home as fast as we possibly can. You know, this is that's that's your job. I mean, you are a provincial representative there, right?

We're there to represent our provinces, but no, it's not as inconsistent as it looks to think about things like cats and animals. And I think everybody went through this in the pandemic. You know, lots of people went and got animals that shouldn't have. When they went back to work, they didn't know what to do. It saved a lot of people, I think, who were alone and isolated. Not that I couldn't go on at length about pandemics and handling

and all of that kind of stuff, because I have a very strong, you know, the journalist in me never dies, right? But I also find balance. I mean, I had this incredible creature in my life for almost 20 years, and she went through divorces and cancer and being fired and moving to New York and a whole lot of things. And she did teach me a lot of things about balance and about being a little calmer. I'm a workaholic, you know, all of those things. So I think sometimes we don't appreciate the sophistication of these creatures in our life. And cats are just really sophisticated and demand a lot of their human companions. I won't say owners because cats don't allow that. Right. Well, okay, Pamela. So as we now we're going to talk about, I'm going to learn more about kitty and then we're going to talk about talking points for cats, true tales and life

lessons from a purring companion. I'll just tell you, I dropped the term FOTM on you and you're like, who's this Mike guy dropping FOTM? That's friend of Toronto Mike, but there is an actual WhatsApp group for FOTM and every Saturday they call it Caterday and everybody posts pictures of their cats every Saturday. And I happen to be, I don't, there is no owner as you said, so I don't live with any cats Okay, but I'm inundated with everyone loves their cat in this group and there's dozens of cats pictures and stuff So first let's start with this. Okay, so Wow, I have so many places I want to go if you Pamela. Okay, they're all cat related. Don't worry

Don't worry cat related and I I think I have to do some anyway, let's carry on for a minute. Well, so you have to, you know, I might have to go. I got to check on that. Okay. Tell me about Kitty. Like, like you've referenced Kitty, who's Kitty and why did you write a book? And is this the 20th anniversary of this book? How fast can you spill this out?

I need to know. So, so, so I grew up with dogs. Um, and so I considered myself a dog person. Right. And then a friend of mine asked if I would babysit her cat while she went on a trip and I was reluctant. And this little chocolate point Siamese kitty arrived at my house and she was just beautiful and gorgeous and and she just stole my heart immediately. But then the friend came back and I didn't want to give her the cat back. I wanted to keep the cat. Everybody else and my husband said, no, you, you actually have to give that back. So I said about trying to find a clone and it was not easy. And I finally found a woman who said she had two and I went out to her place, like drove like a maniac and I walked in the door and she

said, I'm sorry, I sold the female. And I said, but you said you had two. And then she pointed to the runt of the litter that was off in the corner. And I said, but you said you had two. And then she pointed to the runt of the litter that was off in the corner. And I said, but I want her. And she said, well, I don't want to be responsible. Like she might not make it. And what she really wanted was to be paid and not have any responsibility.

I said, you'll have none. So just took home this little thing. She was just like fit in a cop and we had to stop at a drug store and get a feeder. So she grew up right here, like, because they love a heartbeat. And then they, you know, they go up here where there's another really strong pulse point. I'm pointing to my neck for those of you that aren't looking at this. you that aren't looking at this. And she was just, she was an extraordinary creature. And then as I say, she was with me through every trauma in life and loved her time in New York, obviously she ruled the town. But I just started to learn. So this book kind of came up, this

notion of writing about cats, because it was my own experience of never having thought about them much other than the things that kill mice, and then having this whole new world open up. So, you know, you could have a little book about cats with cute pictures, but the journalist in me said, no, no, we need some facts here, so so you know went about just Putting together you know the more you start reading and like fun facts like these are like fun feline facts fun feline facts like the There there the cat body has I don't know I think what is it? The cat body has I don't know. I think what is it?

245 bones if I could remember that number 20 of them are in their tail, right? Because they balance which is why they don't fall which is why they have nine lives Their ears can pivot 180 degrees independently. They're like the most sophisticated radar sensor system system we could use them up north for dealing with the Russians. Like they're just amazing creatures and they, unlike a dog, and I love dogs, don't get me wrong, whose love and affection is almost unconditional if you will actually feed them and be nice to them, a cat is very demanding and they they make you engage with them and it's why I said earlier you're not a cat owner you know you kind of you coexist and and they're just so worth it. So then you go

and you read all the folklore and the history I mean they've been around for 12,000 years you know these. These are animals who've developed an interesting place in history. Egyptians thought they were goddesses and sailors have decided how to cross the seas based on what the animal was doing, what the cat, they're just, they're extraordinary. So I think people will actually enjoy reading the book, whether they even love cats or not, just because it's, does have a lot of fun kitty facts in it. And I did, I did try to call my cat something else. Her name was Keddie. Well, I was going to ask you about this this because it doesn't sound creative from such a creative person. Like to name your cat, Ketty.

Her name was Ketty. And then every time somebody came over, I'd say, this is Ketty. And they'd say, Ketty. And it was just, so I finally gave up and I just said, yeah, her name's Ketty. And, and it was fine. She didn't really care what her name was. But it was a really, it really taught me a lot. Taught me a lot about just life and you know just all sorts of things like how they respond when you're in need and how they know that I have migraines and she used to wake me up you know

how cats will need you know push push push on your and she would wake me up because she knew the migraine was coming I didn't because I was asleep and she would wake me up and then I'd go oh my god it's there and I'd have to go to work, right? So I would get the medicine on board. But she kind of figured that out that that was one of her jobs was to make sure I guess that I could go to work so that she could live in the style she was accustomed. But you know, that's, there's so many amazing things. I never considered myself a cat person. And just hearing you talk about kitty, like I actually had a moment where I was like, Oh, I would like that.

Like I had this moment. Yeah, you would actually like it and nobody was more surprised than me, you know, really. But it's just it's worth it. And, and, you know, I don't, I don't have a pet and I grew up with a pet. I don't have a pet now. And, and it's, I really miss that in my life. But why haven't you replaced Kitty? I mean, you could, Because I spend all my time in an airplane, you know, I, I commute from Ottawa to Saskatchewan. from Ottawa to Saskatchewan. When I came home the other day,

just the Toronto, Saskatchewan portion of the trip, because when I land in Saskatoon, it's then you drive for another three and a half hours, right? So that was a 12 hour day. So I'm not gonna have some poor little creature in one of those cute carry on bags going through this living hell. It's bad enough that people have to go through.

So am I right that you probably have something at four o'clock you got to jump on. I think I do. So hey, how about this? Okay. So firstly, Pamela, I love this chat. Like I didn't, I just loved it. It was great. I'm going to go look online and just I'm gonna read my messages and see I'm sorry because really only I think that we you know I can uh I'll link to the book. Yeah I think we're good. I think all I need to know is you wrote this 20 years ago but what is this? This is like a anniversary edition like modernized. But it's it's updated because of course, you know, like you have to,

it's a little more than the past tense, right? But I just think the timing to me was important too, just because of what's happened to all of us. And I don't know. We all need a little kitty. Like people are so polarizing and so such assholes lately, like a little kitty in your heart. Yeah, it they actually they make you kinder and gentler. And it's hard to say that. The other thing is, you know, you can't just say to them, you know, oh, I'm sorry, I haven't been in touch.

Let's do lunch. You know, you can't say that to an animal you have to show up and you have to be there So it it it makes you commit to and I think that's that's really important And that brings us to the end of our 1416th show. You can follow me on Twitter and Blue Sky. I'm at Toronto Mike. Much love to all who made this possible.

That is Great Lakes Brewery, Palm Pasta, RecycleMyElectronics.ca, Raymond James Canada and the Advantage Investor podcast and Ridley Funeral Home. See you all Thursday when I dive deep into the history of country music in Canada. Read Andrew Miller and wander around And drink some goodness from a tin Cause my UI check has just come in Ah, where you been? Because everything is coming out rosy and gray Yeah, the wind is cold but the sun's still warm It's me today

And your smile is fine and it's just like mine And it won't go away Because everything is rosy and gray