Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Paula Cole: Toronto Mike'd Podcast Episode 1767

Episode Date: September 24, 2025

In this 1767th episode of Toronto Mike'd, Mike chats with singer songwriter Paula Cole about "Where Have All the Cowboys Gone?", "I Don't Want To Wait", Dawson's Creek, Lilith Fair, and touring western Canada with Sophie B. Hawkins. Toronto Mike'd is proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, Ridley Funeral Home, the Waterfront BIA, Blue Sky Agency and RecycleMyElectronics.ca. If you would like to support the show, we do have partner opportunities available. Please email Toronto Mike at [e-mail].

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Today, making her Toronto mic debut is Paula Cole. Hi, Paula. How are you doing? Hey, good. How are you? Good. Hello from Toronto, Ontario, Canada. Amazing. I was just there. Oh, yeah, you were at TIF. Yep. You're having a moment, right?

Like, I feel like with all this Lilith Fair nostalgia, and I watch the dock, we'll talk about it. But also there's a Dawson's Creek reunion. Like, I feel like this is Paula Cole's time. What an autumnal equinox it was. How was Tiff? Fantastic. You know, I just loved being in Canada, just first of all.

The culture, the kindness, all of that. But then Tiff was lovely. I wish I could have been there longer. seen some other premieres. But I was there visiting friends and attending, you know, it was business there for the Lilith dock. Of course. So I've seen, I've watched this doc and there's a lot of Paula Cole in this dock. Like obviously it's Sarah's baby, but you're like first in, right? Yeah, because we were touring together exclusively in 1995 for her fumbling towards ecstasy tour. I was opening a lot of shows for her

and it was a real love affair it was just fantastic there was sight geist that's when I started like walking out as an opener and saying I want to thank Sarah McLaughlin for having me because it's just extremely rare for a woman to be opening for another woman

it doesn't happen, promoters discourage it there are quotas on radio stations and so on and so forth an audience who just burst into applause like us, there was a feeling of cultural movement, so she wanted to continue that. It's so bizarre. I have many, you know, Toronto radio veterans on the show, and I won't tell you the name. I don't know, I think at the Lilifair Dock, they allude to the name, but it's a pretty crude name, but they talked about how you couldn't have, I'll say it, whatever, this is

traumatic, but they said, you can't have beavers back to back, basically, like these, basically, no, you couldn't go back to back with woman. And to think about that, it's so misogyn. Yeah. Yeah. Thankfully, there's been enough progress in the last 20-some-odd years to see how misogynist it is. But it doesn't mean it's not still happening. It's still happening in different forms and ways. But yeah, oh, yeah. There used to be quotas on radio stations. You couldn't play two females back-to-back on radio or even two within an hour and on country radio, even two within the same day. So Paul, I'm glad you're here.

I'm looking forward to this chat, but I'm going to like set things up by just letting you know that I very recently chatted with Sophie B. Hawkins. And I'll tell the listenership that that was, it was late August, like less than a month ago, but that was episode 1,754. And the description I wrote it,

you're 1760, I want to get right, you're 1767. So it's been 13 episodes. Wow. Here's the description I wrote at the time. I wrote Mike Chats with singer-songwriter Sophie B. Hawkins about, damn, I wish I was your lover, as I lay me down, breaking up with Sony, being a part of the 30th anniversary concert celebration for Bob Dylan, her chats with Howard Stern, her appearance on community, and her thoughts on Donald J. Trump. So the reason I'm bringing up Sophie is because we talked quite a bit about her Western Canadian tour.

And I don't know if she knew it at the time. Maybe you can help fill me in, but you're a part of this tour now, Paula. Oh, yes. We're touring together as of October 16th. Gosh, I forget. I think we're in Saskatchewan. North Battleford, Saskatchewan. Yeah, there you go.

And then we head out west. So we are literally sharing a sprinter van together. I will be with Sophie P. a lot. It's going to be fantastic. She's like, she's a real pal. I love her. I love hanging out with Sophie B. Well, I only had the hour and 20 minutes with her, but I can tell you I love her too, okay?

It was instant. So, like, can you give me a little bit about when you and Sophie became friends and how this tour came to be? Because it's quite the Western Canadian road trip you guys are going on. I met Sophie B. Hawkins in 1995. That's 30 years ago. Wow. Wow. And we were both invited by Melissa Etheridge to be on her VH1 Storytellers episode.

So Melissa, kind of pre-Lilith, she was already doing this. She was supporting women because we would be so, like, lonely, like a satellite out in space without coming into contact with other women. I love my guys, trust me. And like my bands have always been men. management men, record company, mostly men. So you tend to be the only female, you get used to it. And then we were both invited by Melissa Etheridge to be part of the show. And on the show, she chose Sophie B. Hawkins' duel, Joan Osborne, and myself. And each of us would learn a Melissa song, and Melissa would learn one of our songs. And we would perform together.

So I met Sophie B then, and I just instantly liked her because she had, her ego is so in check. She'd rather like hang out with the band and play jembe, like be part of the rhythm section rather than, I don't know, hide in the trailer or have the shroud of mystery and silence or vibe that could often come, you know, with other artists. So it was, she was just town of earth. And she wasn't there to be in the spot.

Like she was just awesome. We just immediately hit it off. We both liked each other from that day on. And then little things. would have us bump into each other again. And it's like, let's tour together. Yeah. Okay, love to hear it.

So I'm going to tell the listenership that Paula Cole.com is a good place to go to get tickets. But, you know, you mentioned October 16, North Battleford, Saskatchewan. So it goes to Alberta, back to Saskatchewan. Then you got some Manitoba in there. You're going to be more Alberta. You got Vancouver. Why is there no date in Toronto for you to? Oh, I know. It'll happen. It's just calendars and timing and, you know, it's been a long time since I've toured Canada. I've never been in these territories where I'm headed now. So we're just one thing at a time. And I'll be rolling out another album next year. It's kind of a historical perspective of my demos from 1989 to 1996, like a seven-year period. And I record.

did a lot of music. So I'm releasing my demo's album next year. I'll be touring more. I will definitely get back to Toronto. Trust me. It's just not in this particular routing, you know. Well, we have to take care of our Western Canadian friends. They get all the good stuff here.

And so I do have a question, though. So, like, was this going to be a tour for Sophie and then you were added to it? Or were you always part of this tour? Oh, no, I was always part of it. Yeah, we're co-headliners. I feel like, I don't know, I feel like we barely. The lead on that one when I talked to Sophie, so I don't think I realize that Paula Cole was going to be involved. So I think that's rad that you two are going to be together taking on these.

Like some of them are small. You mean, Vancouver's a big city, but these are smaller outlets out west. I think that's cool. You know, the more remote you get, the more appreciative of the audience. I always see that. And you make fans for life when you bother to drive out of your way and hit these tertiary. markets, right? So yeah, so music lives in the hearts.

It just continues. That happened with Duke Ellington. He took his band out and he would hit tiny markets and made fans for life. And I saw that even when I, in 19, let's see, Christmas of 1997, I performed for the troops with the U.S.O

and I flew out to the Persian Gulf and I performed like on an air. aircraft carrier and a naval destroyer and out in the Shaikis in a tent with no PA and there's like sand stabbing us and you're singing as loud as you can because there's no microphone. So like the best audiences were the most dangerous places. It was the Shaikis. And it wasn't the naval base, you know. It was in Bahrain.

It was the Shaikis. So you just see that. The farther you go, the harder you sacrifice. Because you're building community, essentially. You want to love the people who come, take the time out of their lives to see you. You know, and people in Prince Albert or Fort Saskatchewan, they deserve some great music, and they're going to get great music with Sophie B. Hawkins and Paula Cole. Yeah.

Although I'm being told now, apparently, I said only one big city, Vancouver. Apparently, Winnipeg and Calgary are rather big cities as well, so my apologies to my friends in Winnipeg and Calgary. So when I just told the listeners Paula Cole making her Toronto mic debut, welcome to the family, Paula. Thank you. Glad to be part. I hope Sophie, I want to see Sophie and I really hit it off. I really hope she listens to, she told me I was handsome.

So no pressure, Paula. But it was like I took this sound clip out. I've been using it. Like it's Sophie B. Hawkins telling my listeners, I'm very handsome. So it's like a highlight of my life. here but oh for sure okay well there you go i'm going to add that to it so no pressure no pressure paula okay delete no's okay tyler just said because yes i do want to talk a little bit about where have all the cowboys going and as you can imagine i have a question or two but i don't want to

wait but tyler wrote in to say he first heard you singing with peter gabriel and that you did this. He says, you did a beautiful job with the Kate Bush part on Don't Give Up. And then I kept getting notes, Dr. Alfred Necessitor. I don't think that's a real name. But Dr. Alfred was telling me that he absolutely loved you on Peter Gabriel's Secret World Tour. So would you mind maybe before we get into your Grammy-nominated solo efforts, would you mind sharing a little bit about how you came in to be involved with Peter Gabriel's Secret World Tour back in 93 and 94? sure and you are handsome oh my god thank you i fish and i finally caught a big fish um so uh peter gabriel well um so yeah i i feel like i have to preface everything that's a big

story but i i got signed to a boutique label called amago and they had amy man and they had Henry Rollins, like really kind of left of center. And I got signed to this label. I was making my record, my first album with Kevin Killen, and it was going fantastically, but they paused. They didn't release it. I was sitting on an unreleased album, and Kevin Killen played it for David Rhodes, the guitar player of, you know, he's like Peter Gabriel's right-hand man, he's the musical director and his best mate. So David Rhodes loved it and he played it for Peter. Peter was out on tour on The Secret World Live. So this was what? This was 93, 92, 93. And Chenate O'Connor was singing with him. And Peter were actually dating. And she was touring with him. I actually saw that

tour and she's, oh, I love her so much. There's just no words even how much I love her. She sounded amazing. But she left the tour right before they were to record. And David Rhodes played my unreleased album. And Peter loved it. And he called my analog real-to-reel cassette recorder machine and just, it was beautiful British accent, asked me to join the tour, just point blank if I could. So, you know, of course, I was a huge Gabriel had. I loved his music. And I loved that band. I mean, the musicians, Manukace and Tony Levin. I mean, Tony Levin played with John Lennon on Double Fantasy. He's just a legend unto himself.

But I love the band, and it was a real honor. So, yes, on Halloween of 1993, I flew to Manheim, Germany. I had one rehearsal, like kind of half. We didn't even run all the songs. It was just a sound check. And the first song we did was Don't. give up like no pressure he just wanted to hear me right and there's this big moment this is i'm really getting tangential here but there's this moment if you all know the song because uh let's see

there's at the end i uh because i believe there's a place and then there's this music in six eight there's a place where we belong and i have to do that pickup i have to do that pickup i have to have the internal time feel of six over four because it's like this i'm getting technical here but for all you musos and i know you gabriel heads are musos like you have to be internalizing the time of the six and the four because it's moving out of this kind of six pattern moving into the four for it don't give up don't give up don't give up don't give up in the four four so he walked i got it you know because i have good time and he walked over to me and he said he's said, you're the only singer

besides Willie Nelson who got that right. Wow. Yeah. So I was like, okay. Yeah. And it's just because I love the music so much. I get it. I get it. So that night I was thrown out in front of

16,000 Germans in in Mannheim, Germany. And literally, like a few days later, we recorded the video. So I'm very young and very fresh on the tour. during the filming of the live video, which is out there. And I look shy.

I'm holding my arms down on the whole time. I'm just pretty shy. But it was an amazing experience. I got to see the world. It was very much a man's bubble being with all these Brits. And there were three other women, but there were over 64. I think there were 64 men. So it was like a very patriarchal little capsule.

and I was very alone in it, but it was amazing. And I saw the world. I was touring Europe. We went to British Hong Kong. We went to Japan. And I lived inside that music, and I loved that music. And I learned from my musical idol, Peter. I learned a lot.

I also learned that I didn't want to be a background singer. I wanted to go back to the States and get to my own career. It's funny because your Lilith Fair colleague, Cheryl Crowe, was a background singer. I think of her. Yeah. So similarly, she realized she was no background singer. She was a foreground singer. Is that what you're calling?

Yes. I will say, Paul, it's like one quick note. First of all, I like that you said the word tangential because sometimes I think I really should call this podcast tangential, Mike. Like, it's like, I love the tangents. So don't be shy to go on any tangents. Totally, me too. I think in the depths, you know, the nadiers of the tangents, it's like the juiciest. Those are the best bits.

100%. See, you get it. Now, I just recently watched you accept an award. I think it was called She Rocks. Mm-hmm. And in the middle of your acceptance speech, which was inspiring as heck, and I hope we touch on it later. But you start singing, and I was listening to you, so this is 2025. You're accepting an award.

You're breaking a song. You just broke into song with me right now. There's the sign of a beautiful singer when you can just break into a song in the middle of an acceptance speech and it sounds amazing. You have a beautiful voice, Paula Kool. Ro, ro, roo, ro.

Wait, was that Scooby-Doo? What was that? I don't know, that's Roll-a-roll. So you sound beautiful. Now, you mentioned this album. So I understand, is it a... Amago? Is that? How do you say the record label's name? Oh, Imago. My former record label, yeah.

So this album, was it ever released? Like, I did read a bit about Harbinger, right? Like, it was... Yes, that was Harbinger. So, like, I know that the label folds, but they did eventually release that first album of yours, right? Yes. They released it before they folded. They folded mid-release, right, prior to my second single. And then, like, unbeknownst to me, they sell me to, like, chattel to... Warner Brothers, and I'm stuck there, and I'm kind of perpetually stuck with Amago attached to me. And that's like, that's the music business. It's sharecropper deals, like, and being, you know, having to pay back 90s budget debt

with increasingly small, you know, monetization amounts because of streaming. So, yeah, it's just, I feel like I'm perpetually bounded to this. And I could really go down a dark rabbit hole about that. It's like very, very depressing to me. And I like try to work on myself, right? You imagine yourself marooned on an island with some of your nemeses in life. Well, Terry Ellis and Imago would definitely be one, you know. And how do I overcome that and how do I live positively?

But I feel like because other record labels, they forgive debt. they call it, you know, I'm a legacy artist. So any artist prior to year 2000, all the other majors, they forgive that, but not him. Like I'm signed to this one man with a PO box in New York. Yeah, it's so fucked up. And sorry, can I say that? No, I was going to say that sounds fucked up.

It's so fucked up. And I've had lawyers look at it and they just say, I don't think we can do anything about this. So it's hard, and I don't know, unless, like, I have, I don't know. It's, like, really hard to talk about. So, yeah, it's one of my things, and I just have to, like, I have to let it go. I have to let that go because this is the same man that shows up on the Bob Dylan documentary, don't look back when he's in the dressing room

and he's the asshole with the glasses who asks, like, says, what's in it for me? You know, that's Terriolis. Terri Ellis is the one, their Pat Benetari signed, Pat Benetari signed Blondie. And they all struggled financially, like just with his fingers all up in their business.

There's an article I found Pat Benatar, like slapped him across the face. That makes me so happy. Well, I'm sorry that you have to endure this because you're the artist, and I feel like you were so young in your career, and maybe you, maybe at that point when you're not a name yet, you're not Paula Cole. And Paul Cole, we know today, you might sign bad deals. I don't know if you had. Oh, yeah. I mean, we all were. Unless you have amazing management. Amy Mann, she successfully sued Terry and Henry Rollins successfully sued Terry. And then as soon as she got away from Terry, she put out her second solo album called I'm With Stupid. Now, who do you think that's about? Well, so speaking of a second album, so when you do release your breakthrough album, this fire, which we're going to spend some time talking about a couple of, rather massive hit singles that come off this one. Like, does this guy still get,

he gets money from recording? So that, even though this label folded shortly after releasing Harbinger, then you put out this fire, which, you know, has, like I said, monster hits. We got to talk about Dawson's Creek and everything. He gets a cut of that.

He gets slices of that pie. Yeah, anytime the original master is used. Yeah. Makes me mad. Like, I'm mad now. your behalf. Thank you. I appreciate your madness. I've got a lot of rage in me and it's it's all aimed at this gentleman. Sorry to hear this but no no I don't want to bring this down but you asked about Imago. So Imago to me is like oh that's a little wound and I try so that's

like partly what incentivized me to create my own label because you know I'm old enough that I was in the game of major labels getting signed to who a major label was like climbing a mountain Everest or something. You felt like you made it because you got a deal. Oh, you got signed. But then, you know, time moves on, the paradigm shifts. It's much freer to be independent. And those of us who had those major labels, you know, had us signed.

Like it's kind of almost like a black tar kind of holding you back. It's hard to get those masters back. It's really hard. So I'm so glad to be independent as of, 2013, and I've been releasing my own catalog on my own label, because I'm prolific. I'm in it for music. I'm not interested in selling a perfume or something or acting. I want to be writing music.

I love music, and I don't want my trauma to prevent me from continuing to make beautiful music and touring with my musicians. And so it's like, what do I do? I create my own label, and then I can prolifically express what I need to express. What's the name of your label? 675 Records. Is this an area code? It's an address.

An address. Okay. Because I was thinking, where's that area code, 675? That's an address. Okay. It reminds me, my buddy custom, Canadian, who sadly no longer with us, he died far too young. But he signed to a label that folded right away, and it really messed him up. And he had an album, he had a great song on his debut album Fast, which was called 120.

And I was chatting with him, like, what's 120? He goes, oh, that was his, the address of his loft he was living in was 120. So there you go. Naming your stuff after the number of your home or your address. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. We call our home 675.

675. Okay. I'm taking notes here. So let's talk about some happier things, which maybe if you, if you don't, mind because the first time I think most of us hear your voice if you weren't, you know, into Peter, if you weren't a Gabriel head. Although what's wrong with you if you're not? Come on, what a talented musician? But can you tell me a little bit about what we're, have all the cowboys gone? What is that about? And maybe what that's like when it, you know, cracks the top

10 of the Billboard Hot 100. Where have all the Cowboys gone was something I wrote. Let's see. I was thinking about XTC, the British band, and I loved their humor and their wit. I loved how Andrew Partridge just wrote these kind of rye, that's W-R-Y, rye lyrics with double entendre and just fun and funny and interesting. And I thought, that's so cool. And it doesn't happen a lot from a woman's perspective. So that was kind of my sociopolitical, philosophical thinking on it. and I went home kind of in meditation of that thought

and then it literally just spilled out on the page where of all the cowboys gone and it was lyrics first and then the melody came and then I found my chords and the beat I wrote this in probably 92 I was living in San Francisco

above a gas station in a loft with roommates it was a very impoverished part of my life, but I was fully dedicated to music. Like I set up a home studio. I was becoming my own producer. I was with Mark Hutchins, who also passed too young and like helped for me as a producer. We were just recording every day. It was like my mission to write and record. It was such a prolific time. And we recorded where of all the cowboys gone as a rumba. So imagine this. It's like, bum,

Bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, where all the cowboys gone? Right? And nobody liked it. Nobody liked it. It just got totally overlooked by management record company. And put out my first album, Harbinger, toured with Peter.

It's time to make a second album. And I have it, like, a lot of catalog, and I'm still writing, but I thought, you know, that was a good song. And the producer in me thought, what if I put, like, more like a Ringo star kind of, um, Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club band, Reprise, if you listen to the full album, you'll hear, like, Paul, count. One, two, one, two, two, four, boom, catch, boom, boom, catch, boom, catch, boom. God, you know, beautiful Ringo groove. So we actually sampled Ringo on the demo and looped it and just, which Jay plays the shit out of. Jay Belleros, my drummer since I was 19.

And now he plays with like T-Bone Burnett and tours with Robert Plans and Alison Krause. He's such a beautiful drummer. And we found each other really young. So he plays the shit out of that, you know. And I just had ideas about it. I thought, no bass. I wanted to sound great coming out of a shitty transistor radio. So it was like I was producing it for radio in my head,

not weighing down bass, which struggles to come out of small speakers. You know, fabulous, kind of more accessible groove. And then the catchy beavies added a bridge. You know, everyone can kind of sing along to that. And then all of a sudden everybody's like doing a happy dance. All of a sudden, everyone is like in love with the songs. It just needed like fresh vision, needed fresh production. And what's that like when you have a hit on your hands?

I can't imagine having a hit. Oh, what a trip. What a trip to be walking down the streets of West Village, New York City, and hearing cowboys like come out like somebody's Walkman speakers, which weren't very good because they were bleeding like hell. And I knew that they were listening to me. song or like be in a car and hearing the car next to me which was I remember I was in Atlanta Georgia and I was next to a convertible and my song's on their radio like wow it was a

trip and it was also a trip that you know it got misinterpreted all the fundamentalists out there believing I was like a Tammy Wynette pining for my traditional paradigm with my man and that was a trip and when it was meant to be irony, you know, and a gender role examination in a pop tune, a catchy little pop tune. There's melancholy and there's irony. And so it was lost on some and it was understood by some. It was more complicated than I think people gave credit for them. So, and it stands the test of time well. I think, like Jay's on it, sounds so beautiful, his groove is magnificent, and I just don't think anything sounds like it, that track. Oh, you get me ready and you're 56 Chevy, why don't we go sit down in the shade?

Take shelter on my front porch, the dandelion sun scorched like a glass of gold lemonade. I will do the laundry if you pay all the bill. Where is my joy in? Where is my fairy sun? Where is my happy ending? Where of all the cowboys go? Why don't you stay the evening? Look at you back and watch the TV and I'll fix a little something to eat.

Oh, I know your back hearts are working on the tractor. How do you take your coffee, my sweet? I will raise the children. You pay all the bills. Where is my jogging way? Where is my query son? Where is my happy ending? Where have all the cowboys called?

I am wearing my new dress tonight But you look but don't even notice me We finally sold a shuddy when we had another baby And you took the job in Tennessee You made friends at the farm And you join them at the bar Almost every single day of the week I will wash the dishes

While you go have a beer Where is my jolly day Where is my fairy son Where is my happy ending Where have all the cowboys gone Where is my vulnerable man Where is his shiny gun Where is my lonely ranger

Where of all the cowboys Where the cowboys go? Where are all the cowboys go? You know, and paul Yeah, and Paula, you know, they say satire is dead. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm thinking now, I'm a big Nirvana fan, and I'm thinking now they had a song in utero called Rape Me. And, you know, those who want to misinterpret song lyrics will misinterpret song lyrics.

Like, sometimes it's almost intentional, I think. Satire is dead. Yeah. Born in the USA. Yeah, that's a great example. That's a great example. Come on. Yeah.

I think Reagan used it as like a campaign song, right? I know. Incredible. You know, and I think it's willful, willful ignorance. And it, I mean, I've noticed now that this is 30 years ago. We're going back 30 years. Today, it's like, okay, I feel like nobody takes the time to actually analyze anything anymore. That's a big generalization, but.

They ask AI, you know, which I do a lot. I have conversations with AI because I'm curious. I like learning, but. But aren't you worried AI is going to tell you something. that's not true. Oh, of course. So then you have to get it from AI, but then you have to go, like,

do your own sourcing to make sure it's valid. Probably. It's like a loop or whatever. But there's another big single that's going to come off this fire. It's a great album, but there's another massive song

I've got a question about, as you can imagine. But you got to get another hit on your hand because I don't want to wait was a big hit for you. Yeah. It was the follow-up. We didn't know if we should follow up with me, the song Me or I Don't Want to Wait.

But some alternative stations had been playing me already. So we decided to release I don't want to wait. And we did a video which barely anybody used because I was dressed up in all these crazy costumes. I didn't even look like myself. I'm in the Mozart era with a big white powdered wig. and then I'm a flapper and, you know, it's all over the place. But it's also kind of a beautiful little mini movie anyway, but the song, like, ooh, just like went up the charts. It was number one on adult contemporary pop or alternative.

I can't remember. Adult, alternative, contemporary, whatever. It was number one there. It seemed to be everywhere. It's worth noting, though, just because you mentioned me really quickly, is that back then you couldn't make the Billboard Hot 100 unless you released a song as a single. Like, this is what hurts songs like, you can't touch this, for example. Like, why was that not number one? Well, because it was ineligible, because it wasn't released as a single. And that seems to be the case with me, right? You never did release me as a, officially

as a single, right? Well, we released a video as a third song, but it just, and it was more moderate in its success. But you're right, it had already had airplay. I like that video a lot. It's like just full of color. I'm in color-drenched rooms, and I'm more. wearing like, it goes from red to purple. So I start in a red dress in a totally red painted room. And then I reveal like a flower or, no, it was a red basket full of oranges. And then the camera zooms in on the orange and then pans out and I'm in an orange room in an orange dress. It was very cool. And then it zooms in on my yellow flower and then pans out and I'm in a yellow room and a yellow dress. I loved the video to me. Jay's in it. And, and. And,

Kevin Barry, my guitar player, and Mark Brown, my bassist, they were all in it, too. And they painted Howell House, Colors of the Rainbow Rooms. And that video was beautiful. But for I don't want to wait, I think because we took everyone off guard releasing that as the second single, it just leapt up the charts. And it became like a beloved, it's highly melodic. You can't not sing along. And it's an earworm. And I don't know.

that song is like the song of my life. I wrote that about my family. I wrote it about my grandfather, who was in World War II in the Battle of Okinawa, came back with like shrapnel in his legs, bombed in the legs, PTSD, although we didn't have that word. You know, we were like, don't touch grandpa, don't tickle grandpa, get surprised and angry. And so, and then it's all like looking at your family and my grandparents' relationship, which was very fraught, which says,

affects the next generation of my parents and it makes you think about, well, how do I want to live my life differently? What do I want to do? I want to be as awake and mindful as possible with my opportunity here on earth. So it's kind of all in that song, and it's highly melodic. It just touches people. So open up your morning light and say a little prayer for I. You know that if we are to stay alive and see the peace in every eyes. One was six months, one was three, in the war of 44. Every telephone rang, every heartbeat stinging when she thought it was gone calling her. Oh, would her son grow to know his father?

I don't want to wait For all the lives to be over I want to know right now What will it be I don't want to wait For all the lives to be over Will it be Yes, so will it be

Sorry He showed off all wet, on the rainy firm step, wearing shrugn lovel in his skin. And the word he saw lives inside him still. It's so hard to be gentle on war. And now he has granddaughters. I don't want to wait for our lives to be over. I want to know right now, will it be. I don't want to wait for all lives to be over.

Will it be? Yes, so will it be. Oh, so you look at me from across the roof You're wearing your anguish again Believe me, I know the feeling It shocks you into the jaws of anger Oh Oh, so breathe a little more deeply

All we have is this bed is this very moment. And I don't want to do what his father, and his father, his father do. I want to be here now. To open up your morning light and say a little prayer for a ride. You know that if we are to stay alive

and see the peace in every other. I don't want to wait for all night. For our lives to be over, I want to know right now, will it be? I don't want to wait. For all lives to be over, will it be? Yes, so will it be. I don't want away.

For our lives to be over, I want to know right now, will it be. I don't want to wait for our lives to the over. Will it be, yes, oh, will it be sorry. I'll be. So open up your morning light and say a little prayer for life, you know that if we are to stay a little prayer for a You know that if we are to stay alive and see the love that we are high I'd see the love in the eye.

So Kevin Williamson was creating this. You knew I was going there next. Yeah. He was creating this teen drama show. And my songs had been used for pilots and nothing comes out of it. You know, like Where of All the Cowboys was used for some pilot. I think Me was used for some pilot. Nothing.

Right. And then, you know, Kevin Williamson, he wanted to talk to me on the phone. And he was really a fan and really believed in it. He really, like, really wanted this song. So I just said, okay, let's give it a shot. Bang. The show usurps me. It just usurped me.

It's huge. I know I was watching, and I was this week on social media. I was watching just some clips about this reunion they just had. I know. For James Fanderbeek, who's suffering from Colin Campbell, and is really looking at his mortality and he has many children and an incredibly supportive wife. And when I listen to him on his socials, what a well-spoken kind man.

What an evolved human being. Oh, my God, James Vanderbeek for president, please. What a beautiful soul. And the same person I met all those years ago when I went down to wherever it was in South Carolina when we did some promo together. What a beautiful human being. So there was support from the original cast and they gathered together on Tuesday. Was it Tuesday or Monday? It was either Monday or Tuesday because I just saw that at the end of it, obviously, like, we're all thinking of James couldn't be there because he's recovering. And I saw that video he submitted

and I'm just hoping for the best because I heard he's a good dude. So I'm hoping for the best for James also the name of my firstborn, I like the name James. But I digress. But everybody at the end of this reunion, they all had a sing-along, of course, in the cast. What song are they all going to sing? Of course, I don't want to wait. Because now when I hear the opening of I don't want to wait,

I do think of Dawson's Creek, like the two are intertwined for all of eternity. Right. And so it goes. Yes. Yep. There are other usages out there, but that's what lives in people's hearts.

And if you want a parody, Dawson's Creek, which, you know, for a time now, of course, maybe less so in 2025. But if you're going to do a Dawson's Creek parody, you got a license, I don't want to wait. Like, you need that song to parody. I know. And I know it bothered poor James for a while. Like, he felt like the song was following him everywhere. Well, there's worse songs to be followed by.

That's true. Yeah. I know. I'm sorry for interrupting. I was going to say, there's worst shows for you to be tied to, right? There's a lot of bad teenage shows like that. And Dawson's Creek, in my opinion, okay,

I think Dawson's Creek is, you know, the best teen drama this side of DeGrassey. It's great. And look at the actors that came out of it. I mean,

look at Michelle Williams. What a beautiful soul. Absolutely. Yeah, and they're all, they're singing my song. It's very moving. Very moving.

So I mentioned you having a moment. So I got a little clip. I want to just play and ask you what you thought of this. And if you're even aware of it, I don't know. I'm going to get to that. real quick, but I'm just reminded

Toronto band Bear Naked Ladies I had a good chat here in this basement studio. I had a good chat with the drummer and we were talking about how they were asked to do a song for this new show. It was going to be called Big Bang Theory. And I still, the drummer said to me he was at the cottage and he fought against coming home from the cottage

to record this song for this show because he said so many times they were tied to shows that just were pilots and never got picked up. There's no way this is going to be a big show. It ended up being the biggest sitcom in the history of the world. Big Bang Theory's Barnicolades theme song. So he's glad he made the drive from the cottage to record it.

There you go. Good on him. Shout out to Tyler Stewart if he's listening. So I like this mash-up artist. We're going back now, but this mash-up artist's name is Girl Talk. It's actually a guy named Greg Gillis, I believe. But are you aware of your role in one of the great. great girl talk songs?

No, not at all. I don't know girl talk. So this is, go ahead. I'm a hermit. Let's just face it. Well, we're going back 15 years or so. Can I play 30 seconds? Sure. This is a song by Girl Talk that I quite like called What's It All About? So I'm just going to play 30 seconds for you.

You should hear this. I grew up, you know that if we are to stay alive, and see the peace and love you. Oh, I grew up on the crime side, the New York Times side, staying alive was no job, half second hands. Mom's bounced on old men, so then we moved to Shal and land. A young youth, you're rocking the goat, too. All right, that's a taste, but that's a 29-second excerpt from what's it all about,

and I just wondered if you were aware. no i'm not aware when was this song 15 so he so this is all illegal art he calls it illegal art in that he doesn't he doesn't he doesn't charge for the music but it's he's not i don't think you're you or you're the guy who's got you uh in his grip there i don't think anybody receives money on this so just uh that it's uh it's a very well i mean i have all of his stuff because i just think these mashups are amazing and he's very talented guy but in this song, there's a prominent role for Paula Cole. So I figured I've ever

get Paula Cole on the line, I'm going to play it and ask her if she's aware. And it's a dude and he calls himself Girl Talk. Yeah. So if you ever on YouTube, if you can, and by the way, I would say this to the listenership too that we're going back, I don't know, 15 years maybe, but if you listen to some girl talk, like I played so much Girl Talk back when I had at one of those cubicle office jobs. Like I feel like I was just playing Girl Talk and I just loved it. And that's a, you know, whether you didn't get compensated, it's a legal art, but your contribution to one of the great songs that Girl Talk put together.

That's, I loved it. Yeah, it's cool. You're rolling that, is cool. And that's- Putting it on my radar. And it does, what it does. Now, when I hear songs in the wild that are mashed up by Girl Talk, my brain starts to sort of go into the mashup.

So, like, it even, for, I mentioned Nirvana, but if I hear smells like teen spirit, But I can hear then I lead into a salt and pepper song, I think it's push it, that gets mashed with it. Anyway, this is how my brain has been rewired by girl talk. No, and the song gets like re-employed. There's this band called They, T-H-E-Y, and they released a song called Dante's Creek, and they're like a hip-hop duo, but he has a beautiful singing voice, and he sings part of the chorus of I Don't Want to Wait.

And there's another hip-hop artist, Jamila Woods, who also used I Don't Want to Wait and one of her songs. So I love, I love that it's genre crossing because I'm a genre crosser. Good. I like it too when the genres smash into each other. Yeah. To anthrax and public enemy for Bring the Noise. Oh, yeah. Okay.

So I realize now you're very easy to talk to. and I know you don't have all day for me. So I'm just on our way, because I'm going to ask you a couple of Lila Fair questions just because I just saw this documentary. But I took a note, and you can tell me this is true. Is it possible that you, Paula Cole, are the first woman ever to be nominated

for producer of the year at the Grammys? Yes, that's true. 1998. I know. That's incredible. And when that happened, And, like, they announced the nominations that year, and I was nominated for a lot, seven. And producer of the year wasn't even announced publicly.

It came later because it's kind of done prior to the televised ceremony. Someone came up to me and said, you were nominated for producer of the year. That's the first time my woman's been nominated. Well, of course, it made me first realize that's why it was so difficult. Oh, I get it. That's why it was so difficult. People didn't, I just naively went about my business. I was like Chauncey Gardner in that vintage movie being there. You've got to see it if you haven't. You know, I was kind of sheltered. I grew up on an island off of Massachusetts. I grew up in a musical family. I never even watched the Grammys before I was on it. Wow. So, like, I just was in my own brain and wanting to self-produce because I knew I could do it. Of course I could.

And I just, I was tired of explaining my vision to men who would, like, then reinterpret it. I just wanted to do it. And just, I had to really prove myself. I had to come in under budget constantly, just to be able to be given the reins to produce my own work. and like I even compose with production in mind so that was the first thought oh my god that's why it was so difficult and then you know that's the one I'm most proud of that's the one I'm most proud of is the producer nomination it still has not been won by a female in 2025 that's incredible too and you know you talk about how you never watched the Grammys you had no idea that it had never

been won by a woman. That's sort of like Roger Bannister run in the mile in the four-minute mile back in 54, right? Like, it was a psychological, like, I think they told him he was running, I can't remember, something, he thought he was running a shorter distance or something. Like, there was something, he didn't know he was running a mile, and therefore he did it in four minutes, which had never been done before. But I feel like you were ignorant to the fact that the industry was sort of like against women producers. Yes. It just was difficult. Of course.

I would actually interview engineers. I looked at the profiles and all the credits of engineers because I needed to work with an engineer. And they all, after the meeting, I found out they assumed that I was interviewing them to be a producer, except one, one, Roger Mouton, who was just the loveliest soul. and so I worked with him and you did win best new artist at that very same Grammy Awards yes I did one out of seven

thank goodness that's no Susan Lucci okay you got your award there so okay where's the Grammy right now oh it's a bookend I don't know if you can see it it's up on my shelf with some other oh cool I just want to make sure it's on display

because that's pretty cool Well, I have mixed feelings about that. I just packed up some of my other awards thinking, like, this is bullshit. It's all bullshit in a way. It just really is. It's all bullshit. It's two things. One is, absolutely, it's all bullshit.

But on the other side, you know, you should be proud of your accomplishments. So I can take both sides of that coin. It makes a good bookend. I like books. Yeah, it's a good bookend. Okay, here's my good. I feel like the Simpsons, well, public enemy had a lyric who gives a fuck about a goddamn Grammy. That was a big public enemy lyric.

And I don't think they ever won a Grammy, to be honest. Right. And I don't think the Beatles did for at least. For a long time. Right. Long time. And even my own hero, Neil Young, I don't think he won his fair share of Grammys either. Oh, has he never won a Grammy?

He might have won something like, you know what they do? They make it up to you when you're an older artist and you put something out and then. Yes. Oh, we're sorry. When you're in your prime, we missed you. But here you go. Yes. yeah some heritage award something yeah so a couple of just little affairs again thank you for

your time today oh my pleasure and it's really fun talking to you well when when you and sophie b are playing a Toronto show at some point uh I want to meet you guys like what I want a photo with Sophie B Hawkins and Paula Cole coffee we'll do coffee are you kidding me are you kidding me I love coffee you mean selfie B yeah it's a song You know what? That's a reality show. Okay, you, me and Sophie B. And you could write that. It'll be bigger than Big Bang Theory in Dawson's Creek. So, so I saw you at Tiff and you're with Sarah. So what is your relationship? So fellow Canuck, we love the Canadians on this show, Sarah McLaughlin, a proud Canadian.

What is your relationship like with Sarah as you kind of go through this nostalgic revisiting of Lilith Fair with this documentary? I love that she's back in my life and we're texting. again. I love her and I'm really proud of her. She's been through a lot and I know like she's a private person and it's just a lot of work right now and she's coming up against cancel culture and freedom of speech issues in the United States. So I was at TIF for the world premiere of Louis and that was fantastic. We saw each other on the red carpet and we were just smashing into a hug. Like, oh, my God. So happy to see each other.

Because we toured together for four years, and we kind of, I was part of the inception of it all. From 95 to 98, we toured. And just so grateful to be reunited. And to look at our lives up on the big screen, it was, I was just crying through it. It was very moving, very, very moving. And I know you get older, and it's hard. to like be flying every day and going to a new market and singing. She's got a lot of heavy lifting right now, and I admire her work ethic, and I really admire

her grace, as she's kind of withstanding some political winds in the States, and I just love her. I just love her, and I'm wishing her everything good. So you mentioned free speech. Just last night, at least it was aired last night, I don't know what time they record these things, probably in the afternoon, but just yesterday, Jimmy Kimmel returned to the airwaves. And although I've only seen, I watched the five-minute monologue off the top, so I haven't seen anything beyond that. But I understand Sarah was the guest.

Yes, I just watched it actually before we spoke. She performed alone at the piano. It's really simple and gorgeous. She did a beautiful job singing, better broken, her single. It's gorgeous. But I understand she also talked about free speech in her little moment. on the air and I couldn't find it. I couldn't find it on. It'll be out there somewhere. I have to do a deeper dive but already like there's backlash and haters talking about it and unfollowing, that

kind of crap. But I'm really, really proud of her. I'm really proud of her. She continues to do it. You know, she had Planned Parenthood in the village at Lilith Fair in Texas wanted her to take that all down, didn't want any mentioning of Planned Parenthood. And of course, Joe Nossbourne goes up to perform wearing Planned Parenthood, Texas, T-shirts, her whole band was wearing them. So I just, you know, she continues to be graceful about it. And I'm just really, really happy that the world can see my part and see who I am and remember who I am. Are you kidding me?

So I watched it and I'm like, oh, next to Sarah, I feel like the biggest star of this documentary series is Paula Cole. No, Sarah, one, you're right there. And you mentioned you were a featured performer when that mini tour in 96, that Lilif Fair mini tour. And then you're a headliner for 97 and 98. And a big part of this doc. But so I just say kudos to you for that. But then I do have a question about Lilith Fair in the state of the world in 2025 because Associated Press talk to Sarah.

Because Sarah's got a new album coming out. So she's doing a lot of press. She's got the, she's having a moment, you're having a moment. You've got the Dawson's Creek reunion and everything. But Associated Press asks Sarah what it would take to revive Lilith Fair in 2025. And so a couple things. One is in the dock, Sarah correctly points out, there was such an attempt in 2010, I think, and it failed. So in 2010, there was an attempt to revive Lilith Fair.

Were you a part of that? No, I was not. Well, that's why it failed, Paula. Oh, no. They asked me too, but the timing wasn't right for me, and I declined, but I think it just wasn't the right time, whatever it was. And it feels different now, doesn't it? It feels like it is the right time. However, there's a lot of pressure on Sarah.

She's just but one woman. It's like when I saw and performed for the Dalai Lama, he was really late because he needed a nap. And the first thing he said was, I'm just an old man. And I need to sleep. And, you know, and Sarah says, like, as much as I would love to do it, I'm 57 years old. And it's a lot of work, and it's very tiring. And so she's just in a different place in her life. It's entirely up to her.

But she thinks, and I agree, like, it should be the younger, the younger artists piloting that, right? No, I got the exact quote, and you're exactly right. but she said, so they asked her if it could have, they asked Sarah if it could exist in 2025, Lilith Fair. And Sarah said, quote, I think it could. I think it would be very dangerous. I think we'd have a target on our backs,

and I think it would need to look different. It would need to be championed by someone who was coming up today. It needs some youthful energy. So that speaks to your point. She's 57. You know, you need a fresh face. But I want to just ask you about this, you know, the target, this day and age,

we watch this. closely because your president was talking about annexing our country here, our sovereign nation of Canada. And that got our attention. I'll tell you, that got my attention. I'm, I try to buy it. I don't try to buy, I try to avoid buying anything made in the USA right now because we don't take this 51st state talk lightly. Like our sovereignty is everything and we're not for sale and we're not, and I know I'm preaching to the choir here. Amen. Yeah. But, And you'll know, well, you're coming to Western Canada. I hope the vibes are the same out there.

But it's this idea that... I think they will be. And I only want to tour in Canada this year. Wow. Is that... So I guess I'm wondering how you're holding up. You're such a... Like you mentioned that Planned Parenthood, Texas situation, that Joan Osborne wore those T-shirts and then went to bat for it on. That's in the documentary.

And Planned Parenthood and its existence and all these important issues, particularly with regards to women. Like, how is it being a progressive American in 2025 when you have to watch what's happening in your own backyard? I live in Massachusetts, which is a blue state. We've overwhelmingly voted for Kamala Harris. We have a gay, female governor, Moira Healy. We have incredible education, and I feel safe in my state.

but, you know, ICE has come in to communities very close by and steal people, kidnap them, and then deport them. It's, they're so, he's building the National Guard, he's building ICE, whatever federal programs he has his fingers in, he's building in order to construct this fucked up autocratic, you know, increasingly autocratic reality. And we have to be mindful of history, which we're fairly dumb, You know, we're fairly dumb, and our reading and math scores continue to plummet.

And he said himself, I love the poorly educated. So if we're plummeting educationally, we won't be informed citizens, and we certainly won't be remembering history. And this has all of the signs of a repeated history that we all would love to see permanently behind us. But, of course, I'm frightened and horrified. This is not the country that my grandfather got bombed in the legs for. This is not the country that my parents, the silent generation, had a wonderful education. They had free education.

My father was paid to go to college. Now, middle-class families are six figures in debt trying to get their kids into college. It's changing rapidly, and there's an increasing division of Uber wealth and everyone else. The middle class is disappearing. That's what's really happening is the plutocracy that's happening, the oligarchy that's happening. That's massive division, and that's what they don't want us to focus on that. They'd rather focus on more sensational headlines. But economically, what's happening is that's the true division.

You know, they're making kings. It's a few individuals that own the media outlets. The ones that I use, the ones that everybody use, it's Mark Zuckerberg and Elon Musk owning all the media. So, and the second richest, Bernie Sanders talks about this. I can't remember the second. richest man, but he owns Paramount, which owns many, many other media outlets, CBS, I think. So if you control the media and you have all the wealth, you kind of do a lot, you know.

And if you're immoral, you just want more money and power, it's just very frightening. So, yeah, of course, I'm trying to invest internationally. I want to be outside of America more often. I want to remind myself what healthy societies feel like and look like. I want options for my own citizenship. I'm alarmed. I'm not going to be afraid, fuckers, you know. They're not going to do that.

But there's a lot of us, there's a lot of blue states that voted for a brown woman, you know, beautiful outspoken. intelligent Kamala Harris and it'll be harder than they want it to be. Paula, I really appreciate this the candor from you and this conversation.

I'm so glad I got to meet you. I'm so glad I got to meet you too. And thanks for the tangents. I love the tangents. It's your juicy bits. So we'll say goodbye now, but I will say that everybody in the Western part of this wonderful

country of Canada, should go to Paula Cole.com because I'm going to name-check these wonderful places. North Battleford, Camrose, Fort Saskatchewan, Prince Albert, Brandon, Manitoba, home of the weakings, Winnipeg, St. Albert, Alberta.

Red Deer, of course, home of Ron McLean. Calgary, Cowtown, Vancouver, of course, Van City, future home of FOTM, Stephanie Wilkinson. Victoria, that's where there's a great statue in Victoria for Terry Fox, one of my heroes. Sadly, he passed away in his early 20s from cancer,

but he was going to run a marathon a day on one leg to raise money to fight cancer in the early 80s, and I was just the right age, and I just couldn't believe this guy was doing it, and he had to cut it short because the cancer returned and then he passed away. But we run, I ran just two weeks ago, we run every September for Terry, and we raise money. And listeners of this program raised $5,000 for the Terry Fox Foundation. So you're closing in Victoria,

but at some point when you find your way to Toronto, we're going to meet for coffee. Thank you, Paula Cole. Thank you, too. Thank you, everybody. And that brings us to the end of our 1,767th show. to Toronto Mike.com for all your Toronto Mike needs. Much love to those who made this possible.

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We're going to be able to be. Thank you.