Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Peter Shurman: Toronto Mike'd #937

Episode Date: October 22, 2021

Mike speaks with Peter Shurman about his Global News Radio 640 interview with Farrah Khan, why that conversation resulted in his dismissal from the station, his removal from his position on the board of Tarion, his next moves and future podcast.

Toronto Mic is brought to you by the Yes We Are Open podcast, a Moneris podcast production telling the stories of Canadian small businesses and their perseverance in the face of overwhelming adversity. Subscribe to this podcast at yesweareopenpodcast.com. Welcome to episode 937 of Toronto Mic'd, proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, a fiercely independent craft brewery who believes in supporting communities, good times, and brewing amazing beer. Order online for free local home delivery in the GTA. ChefDrop, access top chef and restaurant prepared meal kits shipped across southern ontario

buy one get one 50 off with the promo code f-o-t-m-b-o-g-o mckay ceo forums the highest impact and least time intensive peer group for over 1200 ce, executives and business owners around the world. StickerU.com. Create custom stickers, labels, tattoos and decals for your home and your business. Palma Pasta. Enjoy the taste of fresh homemade Italian pasta and entrees from Palma Pasta in Mississauga and Oakville. Ridley Funeral Home. Pillars of the community since 1921, and Mike Majeski of Remax Specialists Majeski Group, who's ripping up the GTA real estate scene. Learn more at realestatelove.ca. I'm Mike from torontomike.com,

and joining me this week is Peter Sherman. Welcome back, Shermanator. Oh, it's great to be back, Mike. You know, I heard you say episode, I think, 938. And I remember that the week that I was here last time, it was probably about two years ago, you were very excited because you were just, just, just on the cusp of hitting 500. So congrats on the continuation of a great undertaking.

Well, thanks, Peter. I loved our first episode together. In fact, it's funny because you dropped by last time, right after we recorded Hebsey on Sports. So Hebsey was in the basement, and then you guys crossed paths, and I knew there was a history there, and a good history. He stayed for half an hour. Right, so Hebsey stayed for half an hour,

and the first half hour of the initial Shermanator episode of Toronto Mic'd is a lot of Hebsey. And it's funny because Hebsey then, during this COVID-19 pandemic, he stopped coming into the basement. So his last visit to this basement we're in right now was March 13th, 2020. was March 13th, 2020. And today, as you return to Toronto Mic'd, Hebsey made his return to the basement. And again, you crossed paths. This would have been impossible. Hebsey's been zooming in from here.

Are you two guys vaccinated? Of course. Of course. Are you vaccinated? Yes, I am. It's a mandatory prerequisite for getting down here into the TMDS basement studio. But great to see you, and are you relieved?

I did not invite Hebsey to sit in on this episode. No, no, no. Hebsey, he's great. He's great on his own podcast, Hebsey on Sports. And as your listeners know, if they are regulars and have heard the last one, or if they pull it up and just play it. The interplay between me and Hebsey is real. It goes back to the 70s when he was a young guy and I was a younger guy, and I hired him. And he was a wonderful addition at the time

to what was called FM 96 Montreal or CJFM, and he's still a great guy. So I'm going to read the description and the number, and you're right, it was very close to 500 here. So if people want to go back and hear the first episode Peter Sherman did here, it is episode 498. See? Yeah, so close.

And this time you were almost 1,000. I guess you got a while to go before 1,000. But I will read the description I wrote at the time. I wrote, Mike chats with Peter Sherman about his career in radio, his years as an MPP, his current work at Global News Radio 640 Toronto, which is no longer

current, spoiler alert, and that was, yeah, we almost spent a couple, we spent a couple hours down here, and I'm looking at how you were dressed in the photo. You're dressed better today, like today you wore a sports jacket. You look sharp, buddy. Because I'm doing some TV later. And this is not TV. Or is it?

Well, sort of. The lines have blurred, right? Right there. I'm looking at the camera. All right. Lots to unpack here. Let me see if I have a couple of clips. Okay.

I'm going to read by reading you an email I got. So I had Ann Roszkowski here a couple of days ago. And of course long time journalist and news anchor. Great talent. Oh my God, isn't she a great talent? Yeah, she really is. And she was at City Pulse, City TV News.

She used to be there alongside Gord Martineau. Are you friendly of Gord? Gord and I worked together at CJAD Montreal, also in the 70s, early 70s. And so are we friendly today? I mean, we have never been friends. We have never been enemies.

I mean, if he was here, it'd be a warm embrace and we'd go for a beer. That says something, you know. You never know these days. But I'm going to just read what Rick wrote after Rick listened to the Ann Roszkowski episode of Toronto Mic But I'm going to just read what Rick wrote after Rick listened to the Ann Roszkowski episode of Toronto Mike. I'm going to just read his words here. Oh my God, Mike. That was an amazing

episode. Now you know why I'm reading this. Because he says my episode was amazing. It's a double winger. It's called self-promo. Shameless too. Yeah, shameless. Absolutely. The show's even called Toronto Mike so I feel I can do this. Oh my God, Mike. That was an amazing episode. You did a great job with Anne.

Thank you for passing on my feelings about her. She is just as beautiful now as she's always been. I am envious of Les Murray, LOL. Okay, well, we won't get into that. I sensed the Gord Martineau clip disturbed her a bit. Anyway, that was great. And tomorrow, you have my favorite talk radio host in. Wow, Peter Sherman and I have talked quite a bit And tomorrow, you have my favorite talk radio host in. Wow.

Peter Sherman and I have talked quite a bit in the past on this medium. Not so much this last year, but we used to DM when he was filling in. I was very disappointed they let him go. So much so that I don't listen to AM640 anymore. Not at all. It's quite a thing for me as I logged about 12 hours a day on that station since April 2001. Oh, you're the one. Anyways, he goes on to say he feels badly for you that you loved that job and you didn't want it full time, but you loved filling in and you were the best at it. And he says, thanks, Mike.

So I just wanted to share that Rick was listening to AM640 for 12 hours a day since April 2001, and he won't listen at all anymore because there's no more Shermanator over there. Well, Rick, I'll just take that as a personal compliment, and I don't answer for or level criticism at Global News Radio. They are what they are. They have a stable full of people who I think are undervalued, quite frankly. They're wonderful. They are what they are. They have a stable full of people who I think are undervalued, quite frankly. They're wonderful. They have a wonderful staff. Getting that radio station together, that's their problem. And I'm not part of it anymore, and I'm sure we'll talk

about why. Well, let's set the table here, and then we'll dive into it. Why are you no longer heard on Global News Radio 640? Well, I've been there for almost five years. I had been there for almost five years. I have filled in on every shift on the radio station and multiple times. And I only have kudos from management in that period of time. I'd never met senior management before about three weeks ago. Essentially, I had a guest on who was going to,

it was innocuous when I looked at it on the rundown. I thought this is a good subject because I agree with what this guest is doing. Never got a chance to really say it, but this was a woman who, I'll call her a social justice warrior. I think she's self-described similarly on her own website. I'm not going to say her name.

But I'm going to say her name. You say her name. Farrakhan is this woman's name. Okay. So I'm booked to talk to this person about work that she has done that will improve the education of people who work in the beverage alcohol service industry and improve it in a way where they are involved in recognizing and assisting in trying to suppress, if not eliminate, violence against women

as a result of alcohol. And I mean, who could argue with that? It's a great idea. And I will say today to Farah Khan, good job. I wish we'd had a chance to talk about it. But what happened was I opened the segment by telling a story about a young relative, a young female relative, who wanted to transfer from an American city and live in Canada. She was Canadian by birth, so she had that right. And she asked, and her parents agreed, that she could live with me and my wife for some period of time until she made a circle of friends and got herself a job. And that was great.

And I guess one or two nights in, maybe three nights in, she said, I'm going out. I said, where are you going? Because I'm a surrogate dad, right? I don't care about a teenager. You're trying to protect her, keep her safe in the big smoke. That's all it is. And she says, well, I'm going to a bar to meet some friends.

I said, well, forgive me, but what friends? You just arrived here. You'll make a lot of friends, but you can't have too many now. Oh, I go on chat rooms, and I meet guys, and I hook up in bars. And they go, whoa, that scares me a little bit. What happens when you have to go to the bathroom and you leave your drink somewhere? Where is it? Oh, on the bar or on the table. No, you can't do that. So I told that story and I brought Farrah on and very nicely, I welcomed her warmly. I asked her a question. She

answered the question nicely, but she launched into, I want to check you on something you said. And what I had said, and I think I'm not paraphrasing, but actually. Well, I will. So I will.

Yeah. You tell us and then we'll actually hear it. I will play the clip. I asked her a question. She's answering the question. She says, I want to check you on that. You used words and the words I had

actually used, got herself into trouble with reference to my relative. And all it meant was she got herself into trouble in thinking that she was going to be free of any problem, you know, by hooking up with guys on chat rooms and putting drinks down anywhere. She had never been a victim of sexual violence. she'd never even been threatened and we were not talking about a sexual episode and i tried to make that clear and in in trying to interrupt as is done in talk radio because it is a controversial medium so i could say that um what i got was essentially you'll hear it a diatribe where you know girls never get themselves into trouble uh men get them into trouble and i'm

paraphrasing but we'll hear the real words and uh and it it deteriorated to the point where i'm trying to interject she's not letting me interject and she finally ends she ends the call by saying um i i'm going to end this interview because you're disrespecting me. And I'm left hanging there with a microphone and five minutes to fill. And I do, and I might say, and I think you have the five minutes, that in that period of time, I was a little bit disconcerted. There were a few more ahs than you usually get, but not too many. And what I said was, I hope you're listening, Farah. And basically, I agree with what you want to do.

And to set the scene a little bit further i come from a house that goes back i'm in my 70s when i was 12 i had a mom dead now who wanted to go to work which women didn't do then so everybody on the street had their mom at home when they got home from school my mom wasn't home she was working and uh the other women on the street used to say peter why is your mother working is your family poor and and i asked my mother what to say my mother said tell him to go to hell which you didn't do in those days right the reason i bring that up is because i was educated in being a feminist oriented male before that was even a word and uh my entire career speaks to having, I believe that I can say that I,

as head of standard broadcasting at one time, running CFRB and a bunch of other stations, I was the first person to appoint a female station manager that was in Ottawa. I was the first person to appoint a female director of programming, the first person to appoint a general sales manager was a female. And at the time, I never even thought they're female. I thought they were good. And we've gotten into woke culture where you're not supposed to do that anymore. I think everything is about the best.

Do the best that you can do and stop worrying about what's between people's legs. And I mean, the definition of feminist uh that you believe women and men are equal like totally so i so i felt that what was going on there was somebody trying to uh to put on me the fact that i i wasn't somehow i'm i mean i'm i'm interpreting it this way that i'm somehow not in favor of what she was trying to do or the idea of suppressing violence against women and uh that's connected to my teaching my my young relative what are do's and don'ts in bars and and in that way somehow is putting on women that's nonsensical it's like saying i can't teach my four-year-old uh that when we the street, we cross on green, we don't cross on red,

and expecting that if this youngster actually goes and crosses the street on red, the drivers are all responsible to slam on their brakes and not hit them. You've got to understand what reality is. But I never got a chance to have that discussion, and it would have been a great discussion. And I hope one day, actually, I get a chance to discuss with her again and we talk about the same things. Now, I have listened to this clip, I think about a dozen times now, and I'm very, very interested in

having this conversation with you after I play the clip. But as you probably have heard, I literally played this clip in its entirety for Ann Roszkowski just a couple of days ago, which Rick alluded to in that message I read to you. Twelve hours a day he was listening to that station.

And because Peter Sherman's not there, Rick is out. He tapped out. That's all it took. I've got a lot of... I mean, you can go read the Peter Sherman. It's called Sherman. At Shermanator is my Twitter handle. You can go and read. Look, there are dozens of people who are saying, the hell with 640. Look, that's their choice.

I can tell you this. The average minute audience on 640 is 3,500, and I've got more Twitter followers than that. But I'm just worried about anybody who's listening to talk radio for 12 hours a day. That's a long time. Well, yeah, but you know what, people,

I don't know, Rick, but there are people who drive around for a living. In sales, sales or whatnot so they've got it on and that's that's cool no and i a little bit of a sidetrack there because i'm gonna so i'm gonna play this clip and then we're going to talk about it i will say that the subject like so regardless of what happened in this conversation the subject is also very interesting to me because I, Peter, I'm proud to tell you I am SmartServe certified. I have my card. I had to get it

because I wanted to work for Great Lakes Brewery at like a, I think it was called Grilled Cheese Challenge. But yes, here you go. I don't know what's cameras on,

but I'm holding it up. I will just, so before I play a clip, I did get SmartServe and it was tough, by the way. It was tough. And they watch you to make sure you're not cheating

or no one's whispering answers in your ears. It's tough. I had to like literally, I felt like I was back at U of T. This was a lot of work to get my smart serve certification so I could give beer to people

at Great Lakes. And I did it. And it is, it makes complete sense, this whole subject about adding to this smart serve. It makes complete sense. this whole subject about adding to this SmartServe. Of course it does. It makes complete sense.

That's why I felt bad that she had decided to terminate, because the bottom line here is that message has value, and SmartServe is brilliant to have adopted it, and if Farah worked on it, well, good on her. Well, hey, I think we teased this long enough, so we're going to listen. And it is a few minutes long, but I think we need to hear what aired live before we can have a proper conversation about it. And by the way, yes, Peter, this six pack of fresh craft beer is going home with you. Thank you, Great Lakes Brewery for that here. Okay, so without further ado,

let's sit back and listen to Farrakhan on Global News Radio 640 speaking with Peter Sherman on September 24th, 2021. This is Peter Sherman on Global News Radio 640 Toronto. You know, not too many years ago, I had a relative, a young lady relative, come to stay with us in Toronto because she wanted to move to Toronto from where she lived. And she stayed with my wife and myself and went about her business, tried to find a job, all the rest of it.

This is a number of years now and she's since grown up and doing fine. But when she arrived, she was not a big city girl. And we had to wrestle with how you behave if you're a young lady, a nice-looking young lady going into establishments where, let's just say you could get into trouble. You're trying to get social, you're trying to make friends, and you go into a bar. It might not be the first choice, but maybe it's the only choice. And I remember finding out that uh she had been doing things like uh ordering a drink leaving it on the bar going to the washroom

and then coming back and when you hear that you go you can't do that and here's why and you have to explain it then you you look at these signs that are up on bathroom walls uh in in female washrooms in public establishments, particularly where alcohol is served. And you see that there's a drink that doesn't really exist that you can order. And if you order it a certain way, what you're doing is signaling the wait staff that you're in trouble and what kind of trouble is what you're telling them through this encoded drink that you're ordering. And maybe they'll call the police or maybe they'll help shoo away the guy who's bothering you,

whatever it happens to be. Anyway, these are various approaches to assisting young women who get themselves, or through no fault of their own, wind up in trouble when it comes to the service of alcohol. Ontario's mandatory training program for those who sell and serve and deliver and handle alcohol is soon going to include training on how to recognize and respond to sexual violence in a bar or a restaurant setting. And this is due in great degree to Smart Serve Ontario. And we're lucky to have with us Farah Khan, who is Manager of Consent Comes First

at Ryerson University's Office of Sexual Violence Support and Education. And Farah, welcome to the program. You had a lot to do with this. I did in the way of advocating with violence against women organizations and advocates across this province, as well as with City Councilor Kristen Wong-Tam, as well as Peggy Sattler, who actually did a private member's bill in 2017. Kristen did a city motion that passed in 2016. And so we've done a lot of work to really raise this issue for a very long time with

SmartServe. And at first, they were reluctant to do it. I'm happy that this has come through, but I'm very disappointed in the breadth and depth of their covering. I also want to just check you for a second. I heard you say at one point they get themselves into this trouble, kind of like that kind of naming. And I just want to be really clear here that the survivor, someone who's affected by sexual violence, someone who is sexually assaulted, doesn't get themselves into trouble. Oh, yes, they do.

I'm not going to get in an argument on this. I wound up with a... Excuse me. Excuse me. The person that's responsible for sexual violence is the person that's committing the sexual violence. We don't have a game of shame. Farah, I'm going to remind you that you're a guest on this program. I'm asking you questions, and I'm giving you answers.

And what you heard me say when I introduced you... I think this interview is done. I'm going to end this interview now because I don't think you're respecting me. Well, that's fine. Goodbye. Thank you very much. She ended the interview. I told a story at the beginning of this about my own involvement with a person,

I'm going to say a relative of mine, and how she got herself into trouble, which she did because she didn't know the ways of the world in terms of operating in big city Toronto. And then I went on to say, or who wind up in trouble because of people who are predators. So if Farah Khan doesn't like the way I put that, that's too bad, and she's free to end the interview. Indeed, she did. So goodbye, Farah. Come back sometime. But I'm going to tell you the story anyway, because I think that it's a story that's worth telling.

But I'm going to tell you the story anyway because I think that it's a story that's worth telling. SmartServe Ontario offers in-person and online training for servers working where alcohol is sold, and it's approved by the Alcohol and Gaining Commission. Do you want me to keep going? Not necessarily. What I do in the end is I say, you know, Farah, I know you're listening, and I think you're doing a good job or words to that. Well, let's hear it. We came so far.

And in SmartServe Ontario's media advisory, it told us of the important roles that servers play, and I think we can all agree that that's true. Anyway, the bottom line is a lot of people collaborated, and I'll give credit to Farah Khanshi, certainly one of them, who put forward to various people, she named them, the idea of enhancing Ontario's alcohol laws so that the training of workers in that industry would recognize that there is work to be done and that they should be professional in being able to present themselves where that work is to be done

and help people who wind up in trouble, however they get there. Whether it's through lack of knowledge, as I pointed out was true, and she wanted to deny it, and shut me down, in fact, or when you wind up through no fault of your own as a victim in a situation that you did not instigate in any way. All right, Peter, so let's talk about the fallout and what happened next before we, and then we'll have a conversation about those words we just heard, because I have some thoughts to share't 100 right what you want to do is you want to alert your management because if there's fallout as you uh the word that you used you want you want to be up front so I I quickly sent off a text during the program to the executive producer of

the station I said look there was a segment at 405 you better listen to it because you may hear back on it um I didn't think it was horrific i thought it was unfortunate but anyway i did do that and um it escalated from there unbeknownst to me by the by that evening from from secondhand reports i've got farrakhan was in touch with senior management and uh senior management was highly apologetic and what she was saying was that she was being besieged with emails threatening sexual violence against her and her family and so forth. And like I said, secondhand information. I certainly never saw any of these emails,

so I have no proof of that. But that's what I was told. So this escalated. It escalated throughout the weekend. And by the beginning of the week, So this escalated, it escalated throughout the weekend. And by the beginning of the week, I'm talking to a senior management person in the Chorus Network, not even located in Toronto. And I'm talking to the senior vice president of Global, which is the parent company in Toronto. And what they're wanting is an apology from me.

And what they're wanting is an apology from me. And my attitude with them is, okay, I'll capitulate and I'll write an apology because if that's what they want, I mean, what I want back is I want to settle whatever's going on with FARA and I want to sit in front of the microphone and continue to do what I think I do very well for 640. But it goes on for an entire week or two. And by the time it comes to an end, I've sent an apology. I might say an apology that I composed and then they modified. And I will say here and now was obtained in my view and in my head, under duress because I didn't feel any apology was owed. And it was apparently sent.

And then they decided that Farah should come back on the air, appear on the morning show, Greg Brady's show, that Greg would apologize on behalf of the station and he would say something about me, which, frankly, it wasn't terrible, but I took umbrage at it because it questioned my professionalism. And thank you, Greg Brady. Do you remember what he said?

Because I actually did, I did search for this clip, by the way. It didn't make the podcast. You don't have the clip? Couldn't find it. I did try. I have the clip, but I don't have it with me, so we're not going to play it.

And I don't know what word he used, so I'm not going to... And you couldn I don't know what word he used. So I'm not going to. And you couldn't easily like email it from the smartphone, this clip. It's not in your. Not really, because I have my smartphone with me, but it's sitting at home on my computer. I scoured, I scoured 640 podcasts to try to find

this Greg Brady clip. I didn't realize you had it, but please, do you, can you summarize what, what Greg said on the morning show? He profusely apologized to Farah for the treatment that she had been given, that I didn't treat her with the appropriate deference that she should expect as a guest on our radio station. And I believe that I'm, if I'm not verbatim,

that I'm pretty close in paraphrasing what Greg had to say. And obviously what he had to say was, um, uh, essentially after discussion with management on what he was going to say. And then Farah had some words to say about me, which I can't remember, but they, they were not, uh, complimentary. And, uh, they, they did go on to have a conversation and I'm happy about this, about what she was there to do in the first place. So the message got out.

Now I will read a tweet. So the message got out. Now, I will read a tweet. So Farrakhan did take to Twitter following this. Oh, did she ever. This morning, AM640 publicly apologized for the unprofessional and harmful way host Peter Sherman treated me during an interview about alcohol-facilitated sexual assault and the new SmartServe training last Friday. Unprofessional and harmful way that she was treated. Now, I, okay, and again, I will dive into these harmful words that offended Farrakhan and others,

and we're going to get into that. But Peter, back to Greg Brady. Peter Brady was the other brother on the Brady Bunch. I've got to get my Brady's. Oh, the Brady Bunch. So, Greg Brady. If Greg were here, I will disclose to you something, and this will be later. I believe Farrakhan should have disclosed something

as well in her interview. But I will disclose to you that Greg Brady is a FOTMM like yourself, friend of Toronto Mike, and he was in the backyard a few weeks ago for a very lengthy interview about him getting the 640 Morning Show gig. And I'm very friendly with Greg Brady,

but I'm also friendly with Peter Sherman and many people in the community. Please, what would you say to Greg if he were here right now? Really sorry that you capitulated to management. They got it wrong. I don't know Greg Brady. I've got to disclose that to your audience as well.

I know him because we've been on panels together or we've had reasons, like I've done shows where we wanted to know about sport, something in the sporting world, and he's more or less a sports expert. He came to 640 from Fan 590. So you would expect that. But what I wouldn't expect is that a colleague would participate,

and this is my characterization, in assisting to throw me under the bus. All right, and I'm sure Greg's listening right now. Hello to Greg Brady. Now, Peter Sherman. Hi, Greg. All right. Hi, Greg. All right. Wow. Okay.

So again, the tweet from Farah says, the unprofessional and harmful way that you treated her during that interview. Again, I listened to it a dozen times. And I will say this, I'm going to just straight tell it like it is. Like, I'm not here to kiss your butt. I'm not here to try to spin anything anyway.

I don't answer to chorus or anything. You know, I'm fiercely independent, as they say here. The term you used that Farah was calling you out on was get themselves in trouble. So as I listened again, I typed it out. So get themselves, because, and later you double down on this, when Farah calls you out on that statement, to say that she got herself in trouble because it opened her up to being sexually assaulted by... Did you recognize when you listened to this a dozen times that I also said, got herself in trouble or got into trouble at the hands of others?

Words to that effect. Right, and I think Farah's point is that it's always that latter part, always got herself in trouble at the hands of others. Like that it somehow, it takes away some responsibility by the perpetrator by suggesting that something the victim did, quote unquote,

got herself into trouble. Well, here's what the problem was. You have to modify the statement. What I was trying to get in edgewise when she was taken off on me was when I said got herself into trouble, what I meant was, and I'm not backtracking in any way, what I meant was in trouble in the sense that she didn't understand what might befall her if she got into a bar. She didn't get into trouble at the hands of anybody. She never had any sexual approach

or attack or anything like that. And had she been assaulted for this behavior, she's not at fault. Oh God no. Of course. No. Of course. And there was no suggestion of that. And it's unfortunate that I never had a chance to take that distance and I recognize as well

that the management at Chorus decided that that was the bad that I committed and a bad, I'm using bad language, a transgression that was sufficient to say, we don't want you to do shifts here anymore because I wasn't an employee. I just did shifts.

Well, here's my big question. You filled in. Yeah. And that's key, and we'll get to that. I actually was suggesting that to Anne that I think that's a significant detail here as well but to misspeak and again this is a live mic i have one right now i believe if i review this particular episode to this point i will probably identify several points which i have misspoken already and i wish i'll say i wish i

wish i didn't phrase it that way that language is was the wrong language. So while you're live on the radio, if you misspoke and used language that wasn't maybe, like Farah, maybe she was in the right to call you out on saying got herself into trouble, which at that point, at that point, you may have used language and you may recognize

that you could have used better language. You're live on a mic and you meant no harm. You're both on the same team. That's the thing. You and Farrakhan are on the same team wanting the same things here. That's true. So if you use the wrong language here

and Farrakhan, well, within her rights, what was her title again? Manager of Consent comes first at Ryerson there. If she wants to just call you out on that language to correct it, that's fine. At that point, like as a listener to this, at that point, what I'm looking for is a conversation about that.

Let's talk about that. And what I'm trying to instigate, and you can hear me doing it, is a conversation. And what my next phrase is going to be is, look, you're entitled entirely to your opinion. And when I use the term got herself into trouble, this is ad lib radio, and it's the first thing that pops to your opinion. And when I use the term got herself into trouble, this is ad lib radio.

And it's the first thing that pops in your head. And I've done that successfully for 50 years. I'm not telling you that, that, you know, because I'm old, I should be excused. What I'm saying is sometimes you say something that,

that somebody misinterprets or takes the wrong way. And when you try to modify it and say, look, when I say got herself into trouble, what I'm alluding to is the fact that she doesn't understand that when you walk into a bar in toronto there are predators sitting there and i'm not getting a chance to say it anyway um i then do what i would do say with a talk show caller as opposed to the guest and i and i'm sorry for this actually so in that sense i would apologize i say me, you're a guest on this show.

In other words, she's trying to take over the show. I felt bullied. And essentially, I still feel that that was what that was. And that it ended in an appropriate way because I got a chance, in my view, to make good in the period of time that I had left to me, a couple of minutes, after she cut me off. Okay, so here's my feeling. I feel maybe the language you used that sparked the conversation so she got herself into trouble. I don't think that.

So how do I phrase this? I'm not a talk show veteran like yourself. But that, you could easily, you could, you could, you could learn from that when Farah points out what's wrong with that and then adapt and continue. No problem.

So where I think this becomes an issue is when you, and I'm going to read, I'm going to read another note I got. So I read Rick's off the top, 12, 12 hours a day, no longer listening to the station because you're not there.

And I'm not going to name this person, but I'm just going to read it real quick here. Con, and this person heard it on the Ann Roszkowski episode. So that's when she heard this clip. Oh, that's fine. Con was trying to make a valid point and Sherman actually totally reinforced it

by, okay, so then there's some quotes here. So you reinforced it, why she was trying to make it. Kahn says, someone who is sexually assaulted doesn't get themselves into trouble. And then Sherman says, that's yourself. Oh, yes, they do. This is, and this is, again, the note I got. This is why women don't come forward. They fear being told it is their fault. They put themselves in a position to be assaulted. They are to blame. He, that's you, Peter. He rudely interrupts her to say that.

She tries to keep talking to finish her point, and he's having none of it. I'm going to remind you that you are a guest on this program. I'm asking you questions, and I'm giving you answers. Oh, he's asking the questions and giving the answers. She's not supposed to be giving the answers. So condescending. Ask if he thinks his conduct was professional and if he was treated that way as a host,

would he stick around for the interview? Look, I've been interviewed not as many times as I've done interviews. I've had situations where I found myself. I'm doing it now with you. I've had situations where I've got to explain myself or I've got to defend myself or I've got to try to take control. But I think that that situation got out of control. And I think it got out of control because she took umbrage

at a particular way that I presented it. And I respect the fact that what you just read is somebody's opinion and the way they got it. As I respect, God, it must be a couple of hundred opinions on my Facebook and my Twitter feeds that say you did nothing wrong. And I happen to think I did nothing wrong. And I happen to think I did nothing wrong. I think in a normal interview, during the course of the interview, things unfold and are unwrapped in a way where you can make good on things that are, they're not slips of the tongue. They're how people speak.

They're what we're doing now. I don't have a script in front of me talking to Toronto Mike. You don't have one in front of you. Well, you sort of do on the computer. Just when I read these notes. You have points, notes. I don't even have notes. And I'm used to that.

It's kind of like I work without a net. And I can do very easily, you know, pros do this, a three-hour talk show without a note in front of me. And it comes out of my head because I've learned something over many years. As many people, I'm telling you, I'm the world's expert on talk radio. What you learn if you're doing talk radio is how to think about two lines ahead of what your mouth is saying. That's what you do. So if it comes out wrong and you're having a dialogue, you don't wind up at an impasse where you say, excuse me, you're a guest on this show, which is the precise quote from me. And I did that for one reason, to stop her so that we could have the conversation.

I was as surprised as anybody was when she decided to end it and said that I disrespected her. Did she respect me would be the question that I'd ask by trying to take over the show. That's why I use the term bullying. Right. Now, again, the misspeak is human. The misspeak is human. Well, that's what human interactions are. Your intentions are good.

I mean, it's funny. I'm watching this show called The Morning Show, and there's a weather guy on this show, and he said something about the groundhog is my spirit animal. And this is a fictional program, I'll point out. But there was great blowback on saying spirit animal because of cultural appropriation with indigenous peoples. Okay, so this is a fictional program, I'll point out, but there was great blowback on saying spirit animal because of cultural appropriation with indigenous peoples. Okay, so this is a fictional program, but this happens.

This is a fictional program, and this happens. Chinese people can't own pizzerias. I mean, you know, society's crazy. So my point is, you know, it's easy to misspeak, particularly in 2021 when we're looking at everything ultra closely. It's easy to do the misspeak, particularly in 2021 when we're looking at everything ultra closely. It's easy to do the

misspeak, but when Farah calls you out on that and then tries to explain herself. What I hear, though, this is the part that I wish, and I say this as somebody who likes you very much. I think you're a smart guy. I like you. That's why you're here for the second time. I like Peter Sherman. I wish you hadn't

used that very strong voice of yours. I don't know if I've ever had a that very strong voice of yours. I don't know if I've ever had a guest with a voice like yours. You have this very deep, very strong voice to kind of stomp down on her and basically be like, get in line. Like, this is my show. You're the host. She's the guest. I wish you had given her some air, some room to make her point before you sort of stomped down on her.

So now I'm going to surprise you. Tell me. I take that criticism seriously. And I think that there's an element of correctness in what you're saying. And I'm going to bring you back to the days of my political career. My handlers used to say to me, if I was going to debate another candidate from another party, very particularly if it was female, you have a great, big, deep baritone voice and you can use it so easily to intimidate without even knowing that you're

intimidating. So if you get into a push and shove with a female candidate, even if she's attacking you for your views and you have to come back on hers, come back like, don't come back like, are you out of your mind? Come back like this. With great respect, I disagree with what you're saying, and the reason I do, and the reason our party is taking this position is da-da-da-da-da, whatever it is. And I wish I had remembered that advice and

moderated the conversation with Farah because we probably would have ended it a different way. Look, there's enough blame to go around here, okay? And I'm quite prepared to take some of it. Right. But I don't think the punishment fits the crime, which is why we're here. I'm with you there.

Okay. And I do wish that I had had, and that one day I do have the ability to talk to Farrakhan and have the conversation because I don't think she was wrong. I actually agree with you that this punishment does not fit the crime. I also would, again, and I'm repeating myself, but your crime, in my opinion, even though it was not the

initial misspeak, it was the using that weapon, that tool you have, which is one of the deepest voices I've ever heard in these headphones on Toronto Night. I don't know why you say that, Mike. I just don't. You're the host and Farrah's the guest,

and you have a lot of power. That's a lot of power. Also, Mike, you have a lot of passion. And when I feel attacked for something that I meant well in using, even if you could argue, as you do, I could have used better words or I could have moderated my voice or all of that stuff. If you feel attacked, you hit. Right. But you didn't just use that tool of yours, that deep voice of yours in the host chair.

For example, if you start talking over me, I actually have a button here at my disposal which mutes your microphone. That's a wonderful thing about me being in the hosting chair. Not that I've ever used it, but I could use that thing. But the double down, so you miss the speaking of the, she got herself in trouble, which I totally get why that's some problematic language that you use. And I think Farrakhan is correct that we need to use better language. And language is important, particularly if you're a talk show host.

So there we are at that. At that point, when she's explaining to you why that's the wrong language you say uh i think when con says uh someone who is sexually assaulted doesn't get themselves into trouble which i agree with by the way you then use the big voice to say oh yes they do so at that point it doesn't sound to my ears as a as a consumer of this content it doesn't sound to my ears as a as a consumer of uh this content it doesn't sound to my ears like any conversation is going to happen because it's you're like yes they do get themselves into trouble and they're in you're saying things about like this you know i'm the host i'm the i'm the host you're a guest uh i i'm i'm the guy i can talk over you and drive this part. And I do understand why Farah Khan felt like there was no conversation to be

had. And then I do understand why she, you know, cut bait and left the conversation. The punishment does not fit the crime, but there are some other little details I think are relevant on this program. So I take it. I'm not,

I'm not taking this as a, some people have called me a left-wing pinko because I ride a bike. I don't know if you've heard this cycling has been politicized a bike i know i think it's ridiculous too i think it's don cherry's fault maybe but here we are uh having a conversation i tried to look at it straight up listen to it many times took this responsibility uh very very uh seriously i uh i think it was a little bit inappropriate of Farrakhan, and this is a little unrelated, but I was shocked that she didn't disclose her relationship

with Councillor Kristen Wongtown. I'm not. There's no reason. Look, we're having a conversation about something that I am alleged to have done, or I did, or whatever you want to interpret. No, no, I think this is a sidebite. Did you ask me if I'm married?

Did you ask me who I'm married to? I don't think it was your main. If you were coming in here now, I'm going to make this up. You're coming in here now to defend Coca-Cola as a, it's not so bad for you, you know, drinking this Coca-Cola, but you don't disclose to me that your wife

is a head of communications at Coca-Cola. Like to me, that's, to me, there me, it's strange to be talking about a program with Councillor Kristen Tong Wang in the capacity. And again, she's a manager of consent comes first at Ryerson, right? It's strange to me that there's no disclosure that she's actually the partner of Councillor Kristen Tong Wang. Apparently, she's married to Kristen Wong Tam, which doesn't bother me at all.

That's fine. They're a power couple. That's fine. They're plugged into the official opposition. That's fine. I'll tell you what's not fine. I can't associate what happened next to Farah Khan and Kristen Wong Tam,

but I found it odd that the NDP was talking to a minister of the crown about an appointment I had, by the way, that I was not given for free, that I earned through a public application. Tarion. Yeah, Tarion. And I lost my board seat because I serve at the minister's pleasure because of what happened on the radio. What absolute freaking bullshit.

Okay, that's the next chapter here. So I'm going to read a tweet from David Haynes. Okay, simply, I'm going to read it verbatim here. Peter Sherman, a former PC MPP, has been removed from his position on the board of Tarion. This is against some hashtags, confirmed basically. It follows remarks he made on a September 24th radio show.

We've just heard those remarks. We've been having a great conversation about those remarks. Tarion board members earn around $30,000 a year depending on duties and their responsibilities. So please, now that we've kind of given that context here, can you tell us a little bit about what is Tarion and who removes you and who has that capacity? And you're saying it's possibly politically motivated?

Am I reading between the lines? Please use your word to share. Yes, it's politically motivated. There's no question about that because Tarion is an independent company called a designated authority in a particular area. A designated administrative authority, DAA. And it's 43 years this thing has been around. Well, it's an outgrowth of the Ontario new home warranty laws that were enacted way back when.

laws that were enacted way back when. And what it does is it guarantees hundreds of thousands of Ontario new homes for a period of time, so that if there's a problem and you can't get satisfaction from your builder, you go to Tarion and Tarion intervenes. And if the builder, say, is bankrupt, Tarion will pay. So it's a very important business. We as a board were, they as a board now, are in the business of rebuilding Tarion after it took severe criticism a few years ago at the hands of the Auditor General. And the Ford government reconstituted Tarion. It is not owned and operated by the government.

It's self-sustaining. However, there are a couple of ministerial appointees. In other words, you get appointed because a ministerial appointees. In other words, you get appointed because a minister appoints you and the minister appoints you because you made application, you were vetted, you were questioned by people other than the minister and the minister. So I got up, I'm a ministerial appointee and I serve at the minister's pleasure. So I got a letter one day last week that simply said, you serve at my pleasure and therefore at my pleasure, I can revoke your membership, and it is revoked immediately. And I'm going, wow, WTF, you know?

Well, again, nobody's perfect. And I think, do you think, like looking back, do you have any regrets that you didn't just offer a sincere apology for that instance instead of sort of... No, no. I look back and wish that I'd never had an interview with Farrakhan. That's what I wish.

Okay, it basically fucked up my life. It didn't in terms of my ability to live. I don't have to give up my house. I don't have to lose my car. I am of an age and live the life where I'm independently capable of taking care of myself and my car. I am of an age and live the life where I'm independently capable of taking care of myself and my needs. And so in terms of $30,000 that comes from Tarion or probably a similar amount that came from 640, it's not about money. It's not about money. It's not about money. No.

So you were compensated for this fill-in work at Corsair? Of course, on a per-shift basis. The bottom line here is it's about my reputation, which in my view has been damaged as a result of this. Because 50 years of great work in talk radio, five years of it with 640 doing, I don't think I'm overstepping or sounding ridiculous in self-promotion and saying, I think it's pretty stellar work. I'm good at that stuff. I'm not good at a lot of things, but I'm good at talk radio. And we have a situation where some people took umbrage at what I said,

and management decided to capitulate. I won't use other terms I could. And here I am, off a government board, and out of a job at a radio station, I use the term job loosely, an ability to fill in, and I'm sitting here talking to you, and we're parsing words. This is nonsensical. Right. Again,

I agree with you that the punishment does not fit the crime. I agree with you 100% on that. I also said these words to Ann Roszkowski, which I'll repeat to you right now, is that I think it was an easy decision for Chorus to make because of the nature of your being a fill-in, pay-as-you-go resource. I think it's easy to cut ties with somebody in your position as opposed to, I won't even use a name,

but if somebody had a permanent slot on the lineup, they might have handled this differently. They would have had to pay big bucks. They might have had to go to court. I should state, because I think it should be on the record, that I'm in consultation with legal people because I think that this has got nothing to do with unjust dismissal. It's got to do with things that have been said about me. And you can't just throw words around. You just can't throw words around. So I'm looking at all of my avenues,

and either I will or I won't go ahead with something. But the bottom line is I want to make sure that my reputation remains intact as a really good broadcaster because I am one, and I want to make sure that people understand that saying you're a really good broadcaster or having other people say it does not preclude having an interaction that doesn't go the way you wanted it to go. And I've said the interaction with Farah was not the way she wanted it to go, and it wasn't the way I wanted it to go either, and for that I'm sorry.

In your opinion, you've been slandered? I'm not going there. Sorry, Mike. I got to ask a tough question. You can ask the question. Until I'm finished with my lawyers, I'm not going to say what I was. All right.

And as per my policy, I won't rough you up for... You can if you want. I can take care of myself. I actually wouldn't mess with you, to be quite honest with you. I'm sure you'd take me out. Now, you're in good shape over there. Yeah, yeah, for a 70-something.

Wow. Okay, so you've just revealed to us you have been in consultation with a lawyer and you're thinking about suing somebody for something, but you're not going to go into details as to what exactly. Well, it's obvious that I can't at this point.

I'm not going to disclose what it is I'm going to do or what it is that's being recommended I do or any of that until I have something finalized. Right. So that's where we stop. But what's clear, and you said this so I can repeat it, that this is not a wrongful dismissal suit because you never had a...

What's the point of a wrongful dismissal suit? Because you didn't work there full time. That's my point. So if I really tried to launch and succeed with a wrongful dismissal suit, making $30,000 or $35,000 a year on fill-in fees, what am I going to get? I was there five years. So let's say I get half of that. So they award me $17,000.

That's what the lawyer gets. I'm not wasting my time. I'll ask anyways. You can tell me if you'll tell me. So the person who, should you continue of this legal channel, it's Corus. Is that the body that you'd be? I'm not going there either.

All right. Just digging for some information here because it's all very curious. chorus? Is that the body that you'd be... I'm not going there either. Alright, just digging for some information here because it's all very curious. I'll tell you what it's not. It's not Farah Khan. No, it's not Farah Khan. I have no quarrel with Farah Khan. She's entirely entitled to her opinion. She has 28,000 Twitter

followers and she's entirely entitled to say what she wants and they're entirely entitled to respond as they please. I'm going to ask a bunch of interesting questions here, but do you think the fact that you're a conservative politician, you're no longer an active politician,

but you were a conservative politician. I'm a conservative. I've said it many times. I am. Yeah, and I mean that's, I mean, maybe Greg Brady aside actually when I think about that station right now, it. Yeah, and I mean, maybe Greg Brady aside, actually, when I think about that station right now, it's a rather, I mean, talk radio in general on the AM dial is a conservative slanted. Like I would say.

It's your opinion. It's my opinion that it's conservative slanted. Do you feel like if you were, I don't know, CBC Radio 1, do you think maybe there would have been more patience? I'm trying to picture a CBC Radio stomping down on somebody like that. No, it would have been very different, and I'll tell you why it would have been

very different. If you're CBC Radio 1, you've been prepped for an interview by probably two or three producers who have produced a series of questions for you, and a script to introduce the person. That's how CBC works. And that's not a criticism at CBC.

It is a particular way that they broadcast. And I've got to tell you, they have the highest ratings in the market. So I guess a lot of people like it. They also have a left-leaning slant. I don't think I'm being pejorative in saying that. And I guess if you look at the electoral results in southern Ontario, that's an appropriate slant to take to get a 12% share. Right.

And it doesn't hurt that they don't have to stop down for a few minutes of annoying advertisements. They sure don't. On a regular basis. It's like an hour is an hour of programming. And full disclosure, that's like literally the only station I think i've put on in the past 12 months to be quite honest so full disclosure here i do i do listen to a lot of cbc radio one but uh that lack of ads uh which is a uh an advantage that a chorus own station would not have a luxury they would bell own station or rogers station or whatever no absolutely they're the public broadcaster as

they say so uh you're pissed off p Peter. Like, I can feel it. Like, I mean, you're exploring this legal channel, but otherwise, what's next for you here? Like, I read on Facebook you're starting a podcast. Darn right I am. So tell me about that. I was actually doing work on starting a podcast before any of this happened.

I just amped it up as soon as it happened, and I think we'll be launching in December. The working title is The Peter Sherman Podcast, but it'll be called something else, and I'm going to be as shameless as you. If you want to hear more of me several times per week, my commentaries and editorials that are well-known and interviews with really interesting guests.

You can sign up to be notified when the podcast goes live. No commitment required. Go to Peter Sherman, P-E-T-E-R-S-H-U-R-M-A-N, peterscherman.com, and all it is is a page that has a microphone on it and the Peter Sherman podcast. Put your name and your email address in there, and you'll be notified. That's it.

Listen, be as shameless as you wish, Peter. I'm going to be shamelessly giving you some free swag in a moment for making this trip here. You put me in the vice, and then you give me a beer. I understand. Well, yes, the beer's yours. I have more than that, though. I do want to give you a lasagna from Palma Pasta.

That's in my freezer upstairs. It's delicious. You'll love it. I also would like to give you a Toronto Mike sticker from StickerU.com. They make fantastic stickers and decals and badges, etc. And they're a great sponsor of the program. I put the last one on a mailbox in front of CFRB.

Well, you know what? I got to bike down and see if it's still there. These stickers last forever. I've seen a couple in different places on my bike ride and they last forever. So that's cool. What else I want to give you? This is fantastic. I'm going to send you a $75 digital gift card. Actually, Hebsey was here this morning telling me he went to chefdrop.ca and got a prepared meal kit uh with his 75 and he said it was fantastic delicious him and his girlfriend

enjoyed it and i'm uh sending it to you as well peter so that's from chef drop you go to chef drop.ca you've got the 75 bucks but listeners can buy one get% off if they use the promo code F-O-T-M-B-O-G-O. That's for buy one, get one. And I urge everyone to do that. This is also something, you're only the third person to get this. So Ann Ruszkowski, then Leo Roudens, and now you, Peter Sherman. I have a wireless speaker for you, and this is courtesy of Moneris. Wow.

And you know why I'm giving you that? This is so I can play music off of my iPad and I can hear it in this speaker without wires. You got it, but in addition to listening to that great music on your iPad, you're going to listen to the Yes, We Are Open podcast, which is hosted by FOTM Al Grego. Al's been

traveling this country interviewing small Canadian businesses and then he tells the story of their origin, their struggles, their future outlook. And if you're a small business owner or entrepreneur like me, you'll find this podcast both helpful and motivational. Yes, We

Are Open is available wherever you get your podcasts. You can subscribe at yesweareopenpodcast.com and enjoy. I think it's a great wireless. Thank you very much. I came down here to have a chat and I walked out of here with all this swag. That's great. All right, back to the chat.

So I'm just trying to, there's a lot of moving parts to this story. Really, it's something, like I said, why do you think I listened 12 times? Because I love your voice that much? No, it's because I would hear different things and I would kind of swing and I'd be thinking like, oh, I wish Farah had more patience. And then I'd listen to it again and think, no, Peter was just talking over her with that big, loud voice and doubling down on what he said about getting herself in trouble, which was the problematic reference in the first place and saying yes she does and then stomping down and i said i wish i and again uh not to repeat ourselves and revisit this i'm sure you wish you had a time machine and i know you'd say you wouldn't have farrakhan on the

program but i think an even better thing maybe is to to to if that conversation could have evolved out of her calling you out on that misspeak it would have been really like educational for people because language matters. I just watched the Dave Chappelle special. I don't know if you heard that, but even that, and I watched that, the conversation I had of my 17-year-old daughter last night about that,

it was just what a conversation over the language that Dave Chappelle uses. And I think, again, similarly, we can learn from these natural misspeaks we say as human beings, be it, you know, and I think, again, similarly, we can learn from these natural misspeaks we say as human beings. And you said you felt like she was being a bully, but you will concede listeners might hear you being the bully in that conversation. I totally concede it because there's no point. I'm not going to continue the fight if it indeed is a fight i think i'm

going to say the same i'm being repetitive here it's okay it is unfortunate that things ended the way that they did it is unfortunate that the punishment did not fit the crime it is true that i am disappointed in how that interview ended because it if it had gone full time and we had, you know, pulled ourselves apart, each gone to our own corners, if you will, to use a boxing simile and come back at it and looked at violence against women, which is a really important subject and particularly alcohol motivated. I think that would have been a fabulous conversation. And I'm sorry, you know, when it comes to apologies, this is not an apology. I simply regret that we did not have the opportunity to do that. And I also regret that the people at chorus decided to react in a way that was

completely out of, out of, uh, I'm going to, I'm going to throw a ball because I'm angry and it'll make me feel better to throw a ball. Why don't I get a rocket and stick it on the ball and throw it into space? I mean, that's what we're talking about here. And you alluded to it there, and I want to make sure this is crystal clear because I feel like even though you've said nothing,

so everybody can review this tape, you actually have said nothing about the loss, the legal channel that you're exploring. You've been very intentionally vague on that because for obvious reasons yeah but at the end of this all if people who in this day and age they might read a tweet and not dig into the details and how many people will actually go and listen to the conversation that has sparked this controversy uh there is a concern i would think you would have a concern that people will on face value think that somehow you actually disagreed with what Farrakhan was saying

which I find interesting because you're absolutely on the same page and completely aligned with what's happening with SmartServe and the sexual violence. I think it's brilliant. I'm very happy with it. And if somebody in all this rhetoric that's flying around over this perceives that it's like Farrakhan

versus Peter Sherman, Farrakhan is trying to prevent sexual assault and somehow Peter's on some other, has a different opinion. That's not fair at all to Peter Sherman. Peter wants to promote sexual assault against women. I don't think so. That's not fair at all to Peter Sherman. Peter wants to promote sexual assault against women. I don't think so. That's not fair to you.

So it's so unfortunate that this spiraled like this. And I hope it all works out for you, but it sounds like the voice I'm hearing right now, Peter Sherman being on 640, that's a done deal. Your voice is not going to be heard on Global News Radio 640 again. Oh, not unless they call me today and make amends,

and I'm not really... And how shocking would that be? I'm not standing by the phone. So can we go back to the Tarion thing then? Because this... What do you think sparked... Because it's one thing to say we're going to move on

from this fill-in talk show host on our AM station 640. That's one thing. Okay, that's an easy move for Chorus. Like I said, there's no severance required, et cetera. No, I don't think they have to even tell HR. They just probably stopped like giving you shifts. It's like, we're gonna, you know,

we're gonna McDonald's part-time or something. But meanwhile, being removed from your position on the board at Tarion, can you just revisit, like, you get this, you get told your services are no longer required there, and then that's the $30,000 a year. But please tell me, like, remind me or clarify for me, what prompted that?

It can't just be that, you know, you were rude to a guest on 640. It can't just be you being rude to a guest on 640 is unfortunate, and you're paying for it in several ways but that is enough to remove you from your position on the board you're saying it as if it's a given and you can do that if you want but uh i didn't say that anyway go ahead so what was the reason they gave you just that they uh they don't or did they not give you a reason for for my not being ontario right? Right. They gave me no reason. They don't have to.

I serve at the pleasure of the minister, and the minister's letter is cut and dried, the way ministerial letters tend to be. Since you serve at the pleasure of the minister, be advised that your board appointment, which would ordinarily expire in 2023, is revoked. That's what I got. So I'm looking at my phone, I think.

Is it blowing up? No, Siri is recording everything that I'm saying, so pretty soon it's going to talk back to us. That's funny. Not only is Siri recording, I'm also recording, Peter. Did I mention that? I'm digressing, I'm digressing. So I'm sorry about that.

It's okay. But the bottom line here is I got that letter. Right. I have been around the halls of Queen's Park enough to know what's going on. The minister didn't decide that he listened to the radio and didn't like what he heard. Nobody basically told him that for some reason he should dump Peter Sherman. All ministers are surrounded by political staff and the people who continue whether the government's conservative

or liberal or whatever it may be. And the political staff, knowing that there is an election coming up in June, are very conscious of anything that could be questionable about the government. If a question comes up in the House from the NDP, which is the opposition, this is, you appointed Peter Sherman to the board.

Why, after what he did, da-da-da-da-da-da-da, are you not unappointing him? Okay, that could happen. And there's a group of people who are critics of Tarion who would like nothing better. Well, they got it.

Right, because to be clear, there are some people who feel that Tarion favors builders over consumers. Like there is some talk there. That's, it's constant. There are a dozen people out there who like to tweet that stuff. And, you know, it's too bad they can't attend a Tarion board meeting and see what's going on. They couldn't be more wrong.

But it doesn't matter for this purpose. The bottom line here is much like my 640 situation, goodbye Tarion situation. And the one-two punch. I feel like a leper, man. Which one? Yeah, well, that's why I wanted to clarify that you and Farah Khan are actually on the same

team here. Like, I feel like that's going to get lost. And you know what it's like, all this noise, the facts will suddenly, people won't put in the effort to learn the facts. People never, never, it's not about this. People never put in the effort to learn the facts.

They say, I don't know, let's use something that's far away from this. G, Israel was the first country to fully vaccinate. And we heard that a lot. You heard that a lot, right? Yeah, I think that the Pfizer CEO, there's a story there.

Yeah, but they fully vaccinated to about 60, 65%. The rest refused. So they didn't have herd immunity and they were the first people to start to get recurrence. Right. But people were quoting the first fact because that's the fact they heard or they read in one line somewhere.

Right. And that's, it's not particular. We don't have to discuss Israel and vaccine. We could discuss anything. Right. Trudeau just said we're getting an international vaccine passport. Okay. He said that yesterday or the day before.

So that's what most people know. Have they drilled down to find out if this now supplants the one that Ford issued to us over the course of the last week? Could we use that to get into a restaurant in Toronto? Do we need both of them anymore? I don't know. I haven't read that yet. And neither has anybody else, or at least very few. So you've got to find out about that.

But you take the one line, and off you go with your friends. In fact, that is the yin and the yang of social media. Social media gives you some very positive, interesting news. Social media also gives you a tid positive, interesting news. Social media also gives you a tidbit that's not enough to give you the full story. And you run around half-cocked, you know, saying whatever you say. And it proliferates because when you've got radio stations, and we're talking about radio stations, the business of radio is in severe twilight now. It's dying. In 10 years, there will not be radio. Will there be these

companies and will they purvey the same kind of information, talk shows, music, and all the rest of it? Well, the music is already there. Look at Spotify or iTunes or whatever you want to call it. The radio is there. We're talking on a podcast and I'm talking about starting a podcast. So where's radio going? Goodbye. There's nobody under 45 listening to radio, or at least very rare exceptions. So the bottom line is you're going to have to pay attention, folks. If you're listening to me now, you're going to have to pay attention. You can't go out there and say, Peter Sherman unilaterally apologized to Farrakhan. You can say Peter Sherman agrees that he and Farrakhan were and are on the same page

alright that would be the conclusion but you have to take everything in context you can't just pick and choose and take things out of context no matter what they are but here we sit and they took away this job that you enjoyed which is filling in at 640 last time you were on you talked about how much you

loved doing it and you're very good at it and they took that away from you and then they you know again one two one-two punch, because then you get removed from... I also loved Tehran. These are the two things. Look, when you're retired, which by all indications, I was and I am. Right.

I'm a businessman who retired. Right. And I might say, I'm in Ontario, so no pension. So I retired, but I don't believe in retirement. There's a line in the Shawshank Redemption. And the line is, don't get busy dying, get busy living. Get busy living or get busy dying. Or get busy dying.

Right. Right? You've got it more correct than I do. There's one line out of context. But so the bottom line is, I didn't take it out of the Shawshank Redemption, but I was certainly blown away when it was said the first time I saw that Morgan Freeman voiced it. Talk about a good voice, that steep voice that gets to you. So he says that line, well, I got busy living. And I was doing, and I will continue to do the things I want to do because it keeps my brain functioning to my imagination. I hope it's more than imagination to a greater extent than most of my friends who are my age, who, you know, they read a book or

they watch TV. I'm not dissing everybody who's 70 something. I'm saying that as you get older and you are retired, you do less and less and maybe you travel and there's nothing wrong with it. I'm not criticizing any of it. I choose to continue to have an active work life. Right. And for something that is perceived by some people, I know I suddenly have no active work life and now I'm faced with the prospect of rebuilding it.

And by God, I will. But because that's what I believe. There's a W word you used early in this conversation that I've kind of ignored till now, but it comes out, yeah, I'll tell you what it is in a moment, but it was used quite a bit in this recent article about you from Sue Ann Levy,

I noticed for a website. Now, the word is woke. And so, I know, just a little titch on this because this, this is the stuff that drives me. It's an interesting subject. Yeah. Cause there is, you know,

this is, again, I just watched the Dave Chappelle special on Netflix. So this is all kinds of thoughts I've been having in my mind. But, and in fact, I have Hebsey this morning. I,

I suggested, I hope the Dodgers win because I don't like that. I don't like seeing the tomahawk chop that the Atlanta Braves fans do. And I don't like seeing it. And I saw a comment on the We Go Live on YouTube for Hebsey's show, and a comment came in basically like, don't be so woke and it was something negative about me because look at me like I'm some kind of, like I'm a woke.

I get it. Yeah. They don't want the tomahawk chop because it somehow reflects badly on Native people. And if you reflect badly on Native people, what you're doing is revising the past where the tomahawk chop

has been around for decades. So you're woke. Right. So yes. That's what they say. So why is it so bad? Why do we, why are you,

or I can't remember if it's you or Suzanne, Suzanne Levy, you'll remind me right now, but why is it so bad why do we why are you or i can't remember you or suzanne suan leave you'll remind me right now but why is this so bad to be woke again i don't think your punishment fit the crime okay i don't think your punishment i think your punishment it's like you didn't i don't think it fit the crime but uh i do think that um you you again i've been clear about this but you you talked down to Farah and you were condescending and loud and making it so it was difficult for her to converse with you.

And I wish you hadn't done that. But you did do that. And then the punishment does not fit the crime, but here we are talking now. But what's so wrong with woke culture? Like, aren't we, what's so wrong with woke culture is my quick question.

That's too big a question. First of all, I don't think that by not liking the tomahawk chop, you're woke. I think you, it just is offensive to you. It bothers me. And there's nothing wrong with changing the name of a team because it offends some people. And so they've done it. So let's take a Canadian team. The McGill Redmen.

Okay. That was insulting to a particular group of people. So they changed it and forgive me for my bad memory, but they've changed it to another name. Do you know it? No, but I use the same example of the Runnymede Redmen, which is a high school team that I,

when you're where I grew up and they changed it. I think they changed it to Redbirds. Yeah. So, so they did that because they didn't want to be offensive. Right. Here's, here's what's wrong.

Let me ask you this. Do you believe that we should pull down statues of Sir John A. McDonald? I don't believe that as we speak at this moment, no. Do you believe that they should pull down statues of George Washington in the States? No. Okay. Well, the woke community believes in all of those kinds of things. That, to me, is revisionist history. I'm not going to tell you that Sir John A. wasn't vitally involved

in residential schools in Canada. For that matter, so was Pierre Trudeau, because they didn't end until 1997. So was Jacques Chrétien. The bottom line here, he was Minister of Indian Affairs. And I, and I, he was Minister of Indian Affairs, and I say that because that's what he was. But I can't say, I don't use that word in speech. I use native people, sometimes aboriginals,

sometimes French nations. I've been using indigenous is the word I've been using. Okay, so I use indigenous too. The bottom line is i want people to be known by what they want to be known by but i don't want to be told by a bunch of people who think that by changing everything they're going to right all the wrongs of history it is okay to me the dundas is called dundas it is okay to me that Ryerson is called Ryerson. And it is okay to me that Sir John A. Macdonald statues adorn some public places. Not because all of these things are correct,

but because we have a society. Our society in Canada is 135 years old. And if you go back to Samuel de Champlain, who essentially discovered the new world in Quebec. That's 400 years. This is a young country. This is our history. It's not wonderful. It's not all wonderful. But as much as Sir John A. MacDonald may have been instrumental in establishing residential schools by way of example,

he also was instrumental in establishing a British parliament that continues to function for us today. Some people would say they don't like it very much. Well, go vote for somebody else and change it. But the bottom line is you can't negate your history by saying it wasn't there, but there's a group of people called woke people, the serious ones, who would do that. And what they're looking for is equality of results as opposed to equality of opportunity. In other words, equality of results as opposed to equality of opportunity. In other words, if you take it in the modern context, you want all kids to wind up with the same outcome from their schooling,

so you adjust examinations or curriculum to address different ethno groups, to address different color groups, to address every layer of society in a different way so we get the same results. It doesn't work that way in the real world. That's not the way the creator designed us. We're all different. And it's not wrong, for example, to teach black history, but I would prefer that you teach black history to white kids and to kids of color that is not necessarily black as much as you teach it to black kids. So now you take that back to Sir John A. The equality of results would have been that everything was the same, and yet you have quotes from Sir John A.

where he calls native people savages, because in the context of his times, that's what he saw. people savages because in the in the context of his times that's what he saw they lived in the woods they supported themselves by killing animals we euro canadians didn't do that well that was then and this is now right and and you can't change the past so the past lives with you and these are all teaching moments you're describing so instead of uh erasing this history uh teach teach the history right and teach why and teach why we do what we do today versus what they did then right teach why we we consider we evolved indigenous people to be our brothers now right teach why there's truth and reconciliation right don't teach that all that stuff didn't happen i'm with you 100 and because what because the result ends up being what we call

a cancel culture now and essentially as we wind down I'm going to ask you for your thoughts on a few people really quickly here but you've been cancelled Peter Sherman, like you've been cancelled I'm a victim, absolutely, I don't play victim because I'm not very good at being a victim but I certainly am at the wrong end of cancel culture

Wow, okay so, couple of quick notes and then I'm going to ask you about a few people we've lost recently, just to see if you have any words you can share on these people and give us a little change of tone here. But I just want to suggest to everyone listening, including you, Peter, that if you're looking to buy and or sell in the next six months, reach out to Mike Majeski from Remax Majeski Group. He's been serving the GTA. He was number 14 in Canada last year. And you can follow him on Instagram.

This is a great move. Follow him, Majeski Group Homes on Instagram because he posts these outlandish videos on Instagram. I also want to give some mad love and respect to the good people at Ridley Funeral Home. I mentioned they were pillars of this community since 1921. You can learn more at RidleyFuneral Home. I mentioned they were pillars of this community since 1921. You can learn more at RidleyFuneralHome.com. And last but not least, the good people at McKay CEO Forums have a podcast called CEO Edge Podcast, fireside chats with inspiring CEOs and

thought leaders. And I do post a new episode on TorontoMic.com every week, and you can subscribe to that. Just like you can go to PeterSherman.com and you can sign up. There's a form there right now and you can be notified when Peter Sherman's new podcast is available. Any more details, Peter, on when exactly

we might hear episode one of the Peter Sherman podcast? I'm hoping mid-December, Mike, and remember when you sign up at PeterSherman.com that it's Sherman with a U. Yes. Sort of for unique. Absolutely. peterscherman.com.

Sign up. And if you want to hear more Peter Sherman, because the one thing about 2021 is when you get booted from the terrestrial radio station, that doesn't mean you can't broadcast anymore. This is a relatively new phenomenon in the world of media. But Mark Hebbshire, and we've mentioned him a few times, but he was here this relatively new phenomenon in the world of media. But Mark Hebbshire, and we've mentioned him a few times, but he was here this morning. So he's top of mind. And he tells me he can't get hired by a mainstream media outlet to save his life. But the man still wants to talk about sports because that's what he's been doing for decades. And he loves doing it. And he can. He's got his own show as well, Hebbshire on Sports. And you will have your own

show, Peter Sherman. And you might find out at the end of the day, it's far more rewarding and probably far more lucrative than any fill-in work you were doing on some... Well, you know what? I'm not going to diss that, and frankly, if a radio station in close proximity or

further away, because we have that ability now, wants me to do the same thing that I was doing for 640, I'm certainly available. It's not going to stop the podcast. And frankly, if nothing had happened, then I was still at 640. That podcast was going in. It might not have launched in December.

It might have launched in February, but we were working on it and we're still working on it. That's it. Well, then I have to ask about, there is a local station. It seems, I'm thinking of Loose Skies' for example, right? So Loose Skies' was doing hits on six 40 for,

for years and years and years. I used to talk to him on the shows. Yeah. Since mojo radio, mojo radio, shout out to mojo radio and, uh, loose skis is,

uh, I wasn't with them when they were mojo or toxic 40. That's right. Toxic 40. And that's exactly right. I actually had Ripken on. If anyone wants to hear like the, the,

uh, the history of Mojo Radio. We covered it pretty good on the Ripken episode at Toronto Mike. It was very interesting. So where are we here? Yeah, there's a victim, I think. I don't think you could do Mojo Radio today. It's talk radio for guys.

I feel like you can't do that today. You're going to have sexist radio? Let's go to the CRTC and their license should be reviewed. No, I don't think that's true. Look, we have Pride FM in Toronto. It's radio for gay. That's fine. But you would never start a radio station

for heterosexuals. No, but you would for indigenous people. You would for francophones. That's correct. And all of these groups are small components of our society, but that doesn't make them less important. And they're important enough to have a frequency.

My point is, Mojo, I do not think, would fly today. Well, it didn't fly then, so... And I'm not trying to be disparaging. Let me wrap up the Lou thing. Because Lou can be heard today, I believe, on Saga 960. Richard Surrett is there, and there's other

people there. I'm forgetting. Of course, FOTM Mike Richards has the morning show. He's a good man. But I'm sure they would be interested in, you could do your podcast, and I'm sure they'd love to have Peter Sherman on their airwave. Have you thought of this? Have you talked to anyone there? No.

If Saga 960 has an interest in Peter Sherman and wants to talk, then call me up. Now, they might not be able to. If you're going to want them to match up. Now, they might not be able to, if you're going to want them to match the 30,000 you might have been able to make from chorus, you might be out of luck over there. I hear they have some troubles doing that.

Look, I don't know much about Saga 960. In fact, I'm not sure I've ever turned them on. But, you know, I'm in the radio world and I read the yellow board and so I know they exist. Right, the Sony. But I think they're a thousand watts or something. And they have a small antenna in Mississauga. So I live in Eastern North York and,

uh, the, the signal there would be like in a, in a Jewish word, Bob kiss. Luckily there's this new, new thing called the internet. And I'm sure you could,

I could get it on the, I could listen to it on the internet. All right. I mentioned, it's just three people I want internet, and I'm sure you could probably see it. I could get it on the internet. All right, I mentioned there's just three people I want to ask you about. Do you have anything you can share with us about Alan Slate? I thought Alan Slate was one of the brilliant lights of broadcasting.

I didn't the day that we parted company. Look, there's a story that I will try not to belabor. I was working for Standard for 22 years, rose to be president of the radio division. Standard got sold by the major interest, which was Conrad Black, because Conrad had an interest in expanding his newspaper empire.

Nothing wrong with any of that. And he sold it to Alan Slate. Nothing wrong with that. And Slate and I, in the initial period, got along famously. I thought he was a really smart guy. But as time wore on um it was it began to be a kind of a grating relationship i think two ways he had his

ideas about for example what the major property cfrb should be and i had different ideas but it became pretty clear and i think the street knew it that he had this son gary slate who was a damn good radio man, and they loved working together as father and son back in the days of Q107 and so forth, and that if it was Peter Sherman or Gary Slate, it was going to be Gary Slate. And ultimately, push came to shove, and I believe the line that I used, so I still don't know whether I was fired or I quit,

I said, you know what, it might be the time to find another president of the radio division. And Alan said, don't say anything precipitous. And by the end, I said, the hell with you. I'm saying what's on my mind. The bottom line is that deteriorated. And before the end of the day, I'd seen the HR guy. And I walked out with a big check. End of story after 22 years at Standard.

And I detested Alan Slate that day. And over time, I started to realize what he was about. And I would have to say that the greatest mentor I ever had in my life was the guy who ran CJAD in Montreal, my first radio station, when I came in there at $100 a week as a tech, H.T. McCurdy, a.k.a. Mac McCurdy, and he rose to be chairman of the company and brought me to Toronto to be president. Alan Slate bought it, and Mac retired.

And I have to say that when I look back on it now, Alan Slate was my second greatest mentor because I learned just by watching Alan Slate be Alan Slate. He second greatest mentor because I learned just by watching Alan Slate be Alan Slate. He's an amazing guy. He just knew how to parlay things. This guy took chances. His first radio station was called CFGM in Richmond Hill. And it was up on 1320 maybe, one of those frequencies.

So it wasn't heard very far and wide. It was country. How he got it was he mortgaged his house. And I think for $65,000 or something of that nature at the time, and he rolled the dice big time. And when I had trouble with the business I went into after I left radio for a period of time, and I didn't know how to fix it, I called Alan up,

and I said, it's Peter Sherman. I get some issues in business, and you're the first person that came to my mind to be able to fix it. I called Alan up and I said, it's Peter Sherman. I get some issues in business and you're the first person that came into my mind to be able to fix them. And I hadn't spoken to him since the day I left. And he said, in that characteristic voice, come on up. I'll see you in my office right now. So I went to his office and he told me the story about mortgaging his house. And he said, go back there and as hard as you think you're working,

double it and then double it again. And you know what? I turned that into a multi-million dollar business. And I'm not going to say Alan Slate did it, but he sure as hell gave me the impetus. What a great guy. All right. Now here's a trifecta of Peter's for you. You're Peter, Peter Sherman. While we've talked for the last 80 minutes or so, I've received approximately 10 phone calls from Peter Gross. So I'm going to have to find out what's on fire over there. But Peter Gross is a gentleman I recently called because I recorded a special episode, which people can find in the Toronto

Mic'd feed, in tribute to Peter Silverman, who passed away very recently. Do you have any interactions? I didn't know him. I didn't know him at all. I knew his work, which I thought was great. And, you know, watched him for years. But I am, I'm as a broadcaster capable of saying that he was a really good one and tenacious as hell because he did a lot of investigative

and, you know, and, and journalism and consumer stuff. Yeah. So I liked what he did. I admired what he did. And I think he was good at, at this craft, but craft, but beyond that, I'm just another viewer. On the air, have you ever dropped a watch it, buddy in honor of Peter Silverman? That was a

great line he used. It was a line he used, but no. Apparently only once though, but we all remember it like he said it every day or something. Okay, one more name and again, I never know who knows who in this very small world we have Canadian media. Do you have anything to say about the passing of Jeffff ansell jeff ansell was my friend okay and jeff ansell was a montrealer and the first encounter i had with jeff was he was a newsman at uh the late ckgm jeff sterling

station in montreal when it was big it was our competition i was at at CJAD. It was the middle-of-the-road appeal to adult station when CKGM was doing Top 40 when that was popular and people listened to AM. And that was it. You wanted to go FM, you were going to get elevator music. So back in the day, and Jeff was the Jeff Hansel, the newsman. And he was great. I didn't know him.

I did meet him there briefly but where i really met him was he lived in thornhill um he was out of a job when i was out of a job so this would be around the time that uh gary came and took over at standard and i was looking for what to do and we actually had some serious discussions and it involved a third guy um and we were going to create um a public relations agency, which Jeff ultimately did very successfully. He wrote books. He did lectures. He was very instrumental in a movie called The Accountant of Auschwitz. Very, very active guy, and we would occasionally meet for breakfast, and when I was in between things uh he was kind enough because he was in

new york phil to lend me his boardroom he was a spectacular guy he he in a very untimely way he's a few years younger than me so like late 60s he gets cancer and it kills him and um for that one i shed a tear that was a very very very tragic loss for anybody who knew him and it was a very, very, very tragic loss for anybody who knew him. And it was a very tragic loss for our industry. You know, Peter, I got to give you some props. I got a lot of respect for you because this can't be an easy time for you. Like they're taking everything away from you and you still drop by and put up with my, all my questions and revisiting all this and diving deep into this. We did this for 90 minutes, so much respect to you for doing this,

and it's always a pleasure to spend time with you, buddy. It's a pleasure to spend time with you, and look, maybe we can do this with Farrakhan one day. I'm serious. I would do that. It would be fun. You know I would do that in a heartbeat. I know.

And that's the thing. I want this show to be, I don't want it to look like oh, I won't talk to that person because they're in trouble this way or this one's aligned with some far right thing. I just want to have straight up, I just want to have conversations with people from all spectrums on the political spectrum,

etc. All backgrounds, all everything. And I just wanted to talk about this with you. And thanks for doing that. I'll talk to anybody and I will never hate anybody. And that brings us to the end of our 937th show. You can follow me on Twitter. I'm at Toronto Mike.

Now, Peter is at Shermanator and if we haven't said it enough times, Sherman. At Shermanator. At Shermanator. Well, of course. That's in for that Shermanator. Yeah, and if you want to reach me by email,

I'll put it out there. Go ahead. Okay, it's peter at sherman.org. peter at sherman.org. Our friends at Great Lakes Brewery, they're at Great Lakes Beer. Chef Drop is at Get Chef Drop. Mineris is at Mineris.

McKay's CEO Forums are at McKay's CEO Forums. Palma Pasta is at Palma Pasta. Sticker U is at Stickeris. McKay CEO forums are at McKay CEO forums. Palma Pasta is at Palma Pasta. Sticker U is at Sticker U. Ridley Funeral Home, they're at Ridley FH. And Mike Majeski

of Remax Specialists Majeski Group is at Majeski Group Homes on Instagram. See you all next week. And I don't know what the future can hold or do for me and you. next week. your home number from unwanted calls. Visit RomePhone.ca to get started.