Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Professional Baseball in Toronto Prior to 1977: Toronto Mike'd Podcast Episode 1869

Episode Date: March 26, 2026

In this 1869th episode of Toronto Mike'd, Mike chats with Harvey Sahker, author of Before the Blue Jays: Professional Baseball in Toronto Prior to 1977, about the rich history of professional baseball in Toronto. Toronto Mike'd is proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, Ridley Funeral Home, Nick Ainis, and RecycleMyElectronics.ca. If you would like to support the show, we do have partner opportunities available. Please email Toronto Mike at [e-mail].

My name is Harvey Soccer. I'm the author of Before the Blue Jays, and this is my Toronto Mike debut. Welcome to episode 1,869 of Toronto Mike. An award-winning podcast, proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery. Order online at great lakesbeer.com for free. Local home delivery in the GTA. Palma Pasta. Enjoy the taste of.

fresh, homemade Italian pasta and entrees from Palma Pasta in Mississaugaville. Visit palmaPasta.com for more. Fusion Corpso, Nick Aienies. He's the host of Building Toronto Skyline and Mike and Nick, two podcasts that you ought to listen to. Recycle My Electronics.c.c.a.comitting to our planet's future means properly recycling our electronics of the past. and Redley Funeral Home, pillars of the community since 1921. Today, making his Toronto Mike to debut,

it is the author of Before the Blue Jays, professional baseball in Toronto prior to 1977. It's Harvey, Socher. Harvey, nice to meet you. Nice to meet you, Mike. With a name like soccer, even though it's spelled S-A-H-K-E-R,

you'd think you'd be writing a book. book about professional soccer in Toronto. Well, maybe another day. That's the sequel. That's right. Are they making any Harvys? I was thinking of the name Harvey. Like, you know, I know a bunch of Harvys, but no kids named Harvys.

I got four kids. None of their friends are named Harvey. Is that a name that has fallen out of favor? Like, are they still making new Harvys? Well, they were at least about 20 odd years ago. If you watch English Premier League soccer highlights, you'll see that there's a few Harvey's kicking around in the upper reaches of British football. You are ready to write that book on professional soccer in Toronto prior to TFC.

Prior to TFC, yes, that would be Toronto Metro's Croatia and various other iterations. The Blizzard, I remember? Yes, yes. Okay, let's talk about some old soccer teams. No, we're going to talk baseball. So it just so happens, the Toronto Blue Jays are about to embark on their 50th season. Were you at that first game on April 7th, 1977 at Exhibition Stadium? I certainly was.

I went with my dad. What do you remember about that snowy day? I've only seen, I was only like a toddler. Like I just watched the footage and the recaps, you know, when I discovered the Blue Jays in the early 80s. But what do you remember about that day in April, 1977? It was bitterly cold. It was one of those days.

The temperature was just above freezing and very, very high humidity. and there was no way to escape from the damp. Yeah, you're by the lake there. You're kind of at the mercy. And I know that scene, who's the Chicago White Sox player who put on the snow shoes? I feel like that was the photo to go to. But we won that game. Yes, it was 9-5.

Doug Alt hit two home runs, and Elvis Woods hit a home run in his first major league at bat. And was it Bill Singer who was a starting pitcher that day? Yes, also known as the Singer throwing machine. Okay, look, I think I'm going to love this chat, man. I could just, you know, that was 50 years ago. I believe the, when is the home opener? When is, what is the season start?

Is it tomorrow? Tomorrow, yes. Okay, so we're really like on the eve of the 50th season. I can't believe it's been 50 years of Blue Jays baseball. I still have a shopper's drug mark Blue Jays calendar on the wall from May 1986 because that was the month. They highlighted number 11, George Bell, my favorite Blue Jay. The best kung fu kicker of all.

Bruce Kyson. Yes, Bruce Kisan. Kiesing, you know, I knew I'd butcher. I couldn't butcher your name, but I would butcher Bruce's name there. So I just need a little bit of your bona fides. Like, who are you to write this book? Which I loved, by the way. Like, we're going to talk about it.

I took some notes. But there were some mind blows and fun facts that I didn't know. And I'll, I just found it to be a rich piece of Toronto history that I was a little unfamiliar with. So I love your book. But who are you, Harvey, to be writing a book about professional baseball in Toronto prior to 1977. Well, I've lived in Toronto most of my life.

I grew up in a baseball family. My dad was American. He was a Yankees fan until the Blue Jays took flight. My mom used to go see the Leafs at the foot of Bathurst Street with my uncle when they were growing up and into the heyday of Jack Kent Cook's ownership of the team in the 1950s. So it's in your blood. And you've written about baseball previously?

Yes, I've done some work for baseball America over the years. various freelance articles here and there, that sort of thing. It's not my full-time job. It never has been. But this is your passion, your hustle. Yes, it's how I'm spending my retirement. Did you yourself ever play amateur baseball? Yes, I played in Great Britain for 13 years.

Wow. And I have since played recreational ball, mostly in Hamilton, but also in Richmond Hill, since I returned to Canada from Britain in 2000. Okay. You didn't pick up any of that accent. I don't hear it in the headphones anyway. I still have a lot of the vocabulary, but if you don't use it, you'll lose it.

Well, if I hear you're taking a lift, I'll just assume that's an elevator and not an Uber-type car service. Fair enough. Okay. So I hope the kids today, we can educate some people. The kids today, I hope they realize

that professional baseball in Toronto does not start on April 7, 1977, that there's a rich history of, pro baseball in this city before the Blue Jays arrive. Yes, it goes almost as far back as Confederation. The first professional team to play in Toronto was a barnstorming professional team. They played a team from Guelph in Toronto. And then the Boston Red Sox showed up not long thereafter.

They played a Toronto amateur team called Dauntless and wiped the floor with them. Well, okay, so I, from your book, I learned about what happened on August 12th, 1871. So Confederation is 1867. This is only four years later. August 12th, 1871. The Rockford Forest Cities. Yes. And I learned cities is spelled C-I-T-Y-S. Yes. Not I-E-S. But yeah, they came, and I did not know this. Like the Guelph team was called the Guelph Maple Leafs. Yeah, they were, they were called the Maple Leafs in Guelph for many years. And Cap Anson was a, this, uh, this is, uh, this, This was his Rockford City, Rockford Forest Cities, and they beat the Leafs 38 to 3. Yes, and the Boston team beat Dauntless by an even worse score.

Jeez, okay, no mercy rule in these games. No mercy at all. No mercy. Okay, that's the way we like it. Okay. So I was kind of going to bounce around the early days, but when does Toronto get its first professional baseball team? So that's like a, I don't know, they played a game in Toronto, Guelph versus Rockford Forest Cities.

But when does Toronto get its first professional team? That was in 1985. They were based at the Toronto lacrosse grounds. Well, not you said 1980s. Sorry, 1885. That's when George Bell made that catch and we won our first AL East of Pennant, but 1885. 1885, yes. They play their home games at the Toronto lacrosse ground, which was on the North

West corner of, I believe, Jarvis and Wellesley. Okay, so a lot of this is really what I was passionate about reading your book, these long-lost stadiums. So that's 1885, okay. And that team was known as the Toronto's, right? Yes, that's correct. Okay, a lot of creativity with that nickname. The Toronto's, okay.

And I like, I didn't know about the lacrosse grounds, but northwest corner of Jarvis and Wellesley, I had no idea. So that's 1885. But then in 1886, there's another team that shows up, but like a different league and a different venue. Who shows up in Toronto in 18? You're right, I'm making the same mistake as you. We're not used to say in 18, but 1886.

The team in 1886 played their home games at the baseball ground. It was called, and that was near Queen in Broadview. It went on to become Sunlight Park, which is a nickname that earned because sunlight sold their factory was around the corner. Okay, the Toronto Baseball Ground, TBBG for short. And it was the Toronto Canucks? Yes, they have various nicknames over the course of time. They latched on to the Maple Leafs nickname early in the 20th century.

Okay. And just wondering at some point, do the Canucks at some point, they play home games at Rosedale Field. which is in Rosedale Park. Is that right? While they were waiting for the new stadium near Queen and Broadview to open, they played a few, just a handful of games at the beginning of the season at Rosedale Park, yes. I think it's a mind blow all these stadiums

that were hosting professional baseball in the city back in the day, you know. But the TBBG, which, what you said was Queen Street and Broadview Avenue, right? You know in a sunlight park road. And apparently also baseball. place. I learned that from your book. But that's where the exit ramp from the Adelaide Street east to northbound dawn, that's

sort of would cut right through center field at the TBBG. That sounds right. Oh, I got it from you, man. I got it from you. Oh, it definitely sounds right then. When do teams, like, I know all about the island where they would have professional baseball. When does a Toronto team

first play home games at Hanlon's Point. The first season there, I believe, was in the late 1890s. They played in three parks at the same location at Hanlon's Point. The first two burned to the ground. Anyway, I wanted to talk about that. I mean, so you're right, it was 1897, as I read in your book. 1897, we had a couple of clubs playing. So there's a team in the Canadian League that was,

playing at TBBG, but then they fold mid-season. And there's an Eastern League team that plays at Hanlon's point. So that was known as Island Stadium. But you know, you mean, you got to take a ferry to get there, unless you got a good kayak or maybe a canoe, I think. I've got to try that one day. It takes a long time, though. But you need a ferry to get there.

And you mentioned the fires. So I was taking note of this. So in 1903, that island stadium is completely destroyed because of a fire. So the club was using Diamond Park at the time, so apparently it didn't mess with them. But then they rebuild Island Stadium, and the Maple Leafs call it home in 1908. We're going to talk quite a bit about the Maple Leafs in a minute.

And, you know, 7,000 people can seat there. And then, and you know this because you wrote the book, but I'm excited to report in August 1909. Yeah, like you said, it burns down again, and they have to build it a third time. So the third version of Island Stadium is built because of that. And it's ready for the 1910 season. But this stadium holds 17,000.

What, like, exciting baseball, historic moment in baseball occurs at this third iteration of Island Stadium back in, I guess, 1914. Babe Ruth hit his only home run as a minor leaguer at Hamlin's point. and it was a game in which he was the visiting team's pitcher. He was with Providence at the time. And he beat the Leafs 9-0 and held them to one hit. Showy Otani of his time. Yes, definitely.

But this is, I mean, I know this history that I guess the Red Sox sell them to the Yankees and they're like, we don't want you pitching anymore. Do you think it's just nobody could wrap their head around the fact that, you know, this guy who hits these bombs, this tremendous offensive, offensive outfielder. Like nobody could wrap their heads around the fact that, oh, he could also pitch? Like, this just was beyond the realm of, like, fantasy. It's happened on and off in Major League history where a player was,

they weren't really sure whether or not to make him a pitcher or a position player. But, I mean, Otani said the standard. Nobody touches him except for Ruth. Yeah, unbelievable. And it is a fun fact that he only ever hits one minor league home run ever. and that happens here in Toronto. And later I'm going to blow the mind of listeners, and I got this from your book,

this is a mind-blower, but later I'm going to blow the mind of listeners by telling them that was not the one-and-only home run. Babe Ruth would hit here in the 416. That's correct. He hit a few as a member of the Yankees in exhibition games against the Leafs at Hamlin's Point and at Maple Leaf Stadium,

which existed between 1926 and 1967 at the foot of Bathurst Street. Okay, yeah, look, we're cooking with gas here. So we're getting to that foot of Bathurst Street, and we'll get to that fun fact again later too. But what I, and again, this minutia, this trivia about these long-lost stadiums and different pro teams, I'm kind of going through them, and then we're going to dive into some stories here because it's a lot of me, and we want more Harvey.

I can hear the listenership yelling, give us more Harvey. But in 1914, this is the second time we had two professional baseball teams in Toronto. So you got that Toronto Maple Leafs playing at that third. version of the island stadium at Hanlon's point. But there's a team called the Beavers, and they're playing games at a place. I want you to tell me about this place. It's called the Motor Drome. Yes, I should point out that that Toronto Beaver's team played most of their home games

at Hanlon's Point. It was just a handful of games that were played at the Motor Drome. The motordrome was motorcycle racing and bicycle racing track. It was completely circular, and it was. I believe a quarter, a mile in circumference, and that was big enough for a baseball game to be played on the infield. And that's what they did several times in 1914. It's hard to even wrap your brain around this, you know, this venue, right?

And I know it was on Greenwood Avenue north of Queen Street East. That's correct. You know, this isn't a time when you can actually, there were pro teams in Toronto that might even play east of Young Street. Can you believe it? Like, that hasn't been the case in a while. That's very true. That's a strange time.

But okay, so the motordrome, I'm trying to envision it in my head, but so you got motorcycle and bicycle racing going on and then somehow you're able to play, the beavers, anyways, the Toronto Beavers are even able to play some games in the Class B Canadian League. Yes, there was actually talk of putting another Toronto team onto the map around that time. The Federal League, which was a third major league that existed for just a couple of years, was interested in putting a team in Toronto. But at that particular point in time, interest in taking ferry rides to Hanlon's point on a regular basis was falling out of favor. So it never happened. Well, you know what? I'm advocating for this now, Harvey. And if I were around

back then, I'd be advocating it because I know the leads play at Hanlon's point until 1926. But I would have been saying to Toronto City Council back in the 20s, I'd be like, we need to build a bridge so people can walk and or bike to the island. Or indeed, go through an underground tunnel. Well, they got it almost halfway done, right? We're already going to Port or to the airport. You know, just to extend that. Yes, that would do the trick.

Okay, I'm going to make some calls after this recording, Hervey. See if we can finally get that done. I know a city councilor came over and was telling me that we could have gondolas. So you get on the gondola, and I guess you could put your bike on there too, and it would take it to the island. But that would even work. I'd like to see that. Okay, well, hang in there.

We're making progress here. Okay, so this island stadium that was on Hanlon's point, which I've read so much, I find it fascinating. I've seen photos, but of course, long gone. I was on the island this last summer. Couldn't find the island stadium. But the Leaves called that home until 1926. And then you mentioned this venue and I've seen photos of this too and we can talk quite a bit about this venue. Maple Leaf Stadium. This was at the foot of Bathurst Street. They call it Stadium Road now, right? Yes, the street runs between the site of the stadium and Tip Top Tailors.

Yeah, the condos now that took the Tip Top Taylor sign. That always whenever I want to envision where that stadium is. I just see the tip-top Taylor logo on the condos there, and I think it's got to be around there. Yes, that's correct. Okay. Did you ever attend a game there?

In vitro. My mom was just early into her third trimester with me when she and my dad went to a game at the stadium. It was bad day, and I wasn't really there, according to some people. You're in vitro. It depends who you talk to. That's right.

If you were baking yet. I ended up with a bat as a result of going to that game. Was it sponsored back then or was it just a bat? It was a seven-up bat. Okay, that's exciting. I grew up in the era of the Katelli bat. But this was a huge day, like when we were going to bat,

Kateli bat day at exhibition stadium. That was always exciting to get these. They were shorter and thinner than a typical bat, but it was always exciting to get your Kitelli bat. I can't imagine bat day existing nowadays. It would just be regarded as too much of a. security risk. The Jays in their first season had hockey stick night late in the season.

I think it was a game against the Cleveland Indians. And people got them on their way into the stadium, not on their way out. There were no fights that I'm aware of. Well, you know, I'm surprised now that I, you know, I was young and naive, but I remember getting the Dominion, I think it was a dollar. I want to say it was like a dollar to get grandstand seats, the general admission at exhibition stadium if you bought it at Dominion. Like these were $2 seats and they were half price somehow.

Yes, you had to spend a minimum amount. I think it was $10 at Dominion and not entitled you to a ticket for a dollar. But I remember as a pretty young kid being there and it might, if we were playing like, let's say that we were playing New York Yankees for sure or Detroit Tigers, you know, a lot of their fans would come over the border and get into these cheap seats and they would be drinking the beer like crazy and fights would be breaking out everywhere. I cannot imagine what would have happened. happened in the grandstand in a game like that if everybody had a Catelli bat in their hand.

Yeah, so our hockey stick. Okay, geez, okay. What were we thinking? Okay. This is like when you find out, oh, when you drove home from the hospital, you were like not seatbelted. Like you get a, it was like, oh, really? Like, that's how we rolled back then. Okay.

So, Harvey, let's reset here. 1926, the Leafs say goodbye to Hanlon's point. And they move into Maple Leaf Stadium. That stadium, tell me a little bit about Maple Leaf. Stadium. It held 23,000 plus fans, as I read. That's pretty good. Yes, that's enormous for a minor league stadium. And there were porticos that were sort of reminiscent of Yankee Stadium. It was quite a grand structure from the outside. And Larry Milsson, who's a dear friend of this program, it's been on multiple times. I bump into him all the time. I'm wearing my Toronto Maple Leafs

because, of course, well, actually, they just rebranded it. So I was going to call it inter-county baseball league. But now it's like the Canadian Baseball League, right? Yes, it's the second league to have that name in the last 25 years. Okay, but we, you know, Leifes play at Christy Pitts and Larry Milsen, I'd often see him there taking pictures and checking out the baseball action. But Larry Milsson will talk your ear off about all the games he attended at Maple Leaf Stadium.

He had a great time at that old stadium. Yeah, from what I understand, it was a fun place to be. And when did they shudder that stadium? The last Leafs game was played in early September of 1967, and the stadium had a date with the wrecking ball. I think it was the following year. Well, hey, let me just throw this at you. What year did the Toronto Maple Leafs NHL team last win the Stanley Cup?

Oh, I believe that was 1967. Should we be connecting these dots? Think about that. I mean, we won the Cup, and then we said goodbye to Maple Leaf Stadium. the baseball team did. And we never won another cup. As a long suffering leaves hockey fan, I'm not sure I should weigh in with that.

We're always looking for someone else to blame. We can't blame, you know, management or, you know, scouts we have to find, or ownership. We blamed Ballard for so much, but he's been gone so long now, and we still haven't made a final. Like, I'm not sure who to blame anymore. That's a conversation for another day.

But then we do things, like, okay, we'll bring in, let's bring in, well, let's bring in Brian Burke or Shanahan's going to run this place and we're going to be a professional organization. Along the way, or Ken Dryden's going to be present. All these different steps along the way where it's like, yeah, we're going to bring in these big names and we're going to spend the cap. So we're not going to, you know, cheap out. And we're going to do it proper. And then you'll have these signs of hope.

I know I'm going to get off this in 10 seconds, but maybe in two minutes. But, you know, these signs of hope, you know, you'll get a number one draft pick and you'll get a player who's not a and you'll have your Austin Matthews and you'll surround him with a marner and you'll surround them, you know, you'll get the flow bro there and you'll, you'll have Riley and D and you'll start building and you start thinking, oh yeah, this team could, you know, bless us with a parade down Bay Street, as Ger Joyce would say. And same old situation. Shout out to Motley Crew.

I don't, I don't know. I don't know what to say. I think that the best thing that could happen to the Toronto Maple Leafs hockey team would be for an NHL franchise to move to Hamilton. And that'll never happen. No, it would never happen. But if it did, that would force the Leafs to take a look at themselves

and maybe try just a little bit harder. So you don't think we've been trying hard enough. Is that your hot take there, Harvey? I will say last season, which isn't that long ago, we're in the second round. We're going to game seven against the current and then future Stanley Cup champions. and really, like, we came within a whisker.

I feel like if we had won that game, we may be talking about the 20, 25 Stanley Cup champion Maple Leafs. So it's not like it's been futile the whole way, but you take those two, that's one step forward, and it seems like this franchise then wants to take a couple of steps back. But maybe we should move on from this, because I'm getting depressed. I think that I should qualify what I just said and say that,

I think it's mostly off the ice that they would need to try a little bit harder, because let's face it, off the ice, in terms of putting bums on seats, they don't have to try at all. But they would like more bums in playoff games. And some of those bums would defect to the Hamilton team if they were west of the city. Okay.

You know what? If only we could get a team in Hamilton. We gave that a shot, as I recall, with Jim Bell Silly. All right, so back to the Toronto Maple Leafs of baseball. And you mentioned this earlier, but I just want to dwell on one game particularly. So we talked quite a bit about all these professional franchises that played in Toronto

before the Blue Jays. But on July 11th, 1930, the Yankees came to town. So can you tell me, was this an exhibition game? Yes. Okay, so it's not a regular season game. No.

Okay. So it's just simply, like, what was the motive behind this? Because the Maple Leafs, the Maple Leafs that were at the time playing at the stadium, Maple Leaf Stadium, there at the foot of Bathurst Street.

The Maple Leaf Stadium, would just play the Yankees in an exhibition game to just to show Toronto fans the the big bad Yankees? Yes, it was a way to showcase Ruth. It was a way for the Yankees to actually make some extra money because players, by and large, did not have huge salaries at the time. So if they could squeeze an exhibition game into the regular season schedule, that could be a lucrative date for the club financially, and they would do it.

So this particular game I'm highlighting, because you mentioned, you know, Babe Ruth came here multiple times as a Yankee to play these exhibition games. And then this game, by the way, July 11th, 1930, I was reading in your book that the Yankees did beat us 16 to 11. It was a seven inning game, which I took note of. But Babe Ruth hit two home runs at game, including a grand slam. Apparently the Yankees had an 11 run second inning. And there's an example of Babe Ruth hitting another home run in Toronto, not just with the Providence Graves. Yes, that's right. Now, it's not all like, I like your book because it's warts and all. So, you know, you're going to talk about, you know, good baseball history and baseball personalities, but you also dwell into some of the uglier parts of Toronto's history, and I think it's important that we don't scrub these uncomfortable moments from our history that we, you know, face them head on, and I like how you write about these, and we can still learn from these horrific events of the past.

But could you just speak maybe for a moment, Harvey, about, you talked about sunlight, Sunlight Park earlier, which was at Queen Street and kind of east of the Don River on Queen Street East. The racism, like this was news to me. I didn't, I did, I was not aware of the, the examples of racism at Sunlight Park. There was one notable example of this in the, it was not that long after Toronto first having a, a pro baseball team at all. there was a player on the visiting team who was an African American. The Jim Crow laws had not completely taken effect yet. So there were a few African Americans in pro ball at the time.

And the one who was playing on the visiting team in Toronto was on the receiving end of some racist abuse at the stadium. He reacted by pulling a gun. And for his troubles, he was taken to the local jail. and spent the night there. He was released the next day. Yeah, and whenever I, you know, you hear about the, you know, we talked about Christy Pits earlier. They host the Toronto Maple Leafs team now.

Different league, but same nickname. But anyway, which I always found amazing that, you know, the Toronto Maple Leafs baseball team can use this logo I'm wearing right now. And it's, I think it's, I think maybe the PR, the NHL team would get by issuing some kind of, cease and desist, it's not worth it to them. So I like that these franchises do coexist with similar branding. I agree.

I dare, I dare MLSE to issue that. I mean, oh, God, I know the owner of the trauma it believes they would lean in on that hard. That would be the best thing that ever happened to them, probably. That wouldn't surprise me. But I want to talk about one of the biggest mind blows in your book, and I'm not going to spoil. This book is rich, and I thoroughly enjoy.

it and I highly recommend it. How do people get this book? They can find it at Indigo, Book City, if they're near St. Mary's, Ontario at the Canadian Baseball Hall of Fame and various independent booksellers and on Amazon. Any baseball fan should get it, but not only that, I'm going to extend this to people like myself who are just interested in Toronto history. Even if you're not a big baseball fan, I think this book would be a worthwhile read just to read about Toronto history.

I think so too. Thank you for saying so. I learned a lot. I did too when I was researching the book. But I'm not as bright as you, so I had more to learn. Well, I don't know about that. Two plus two, quick. All right.

I want to talk about, this is the mind blow, okay? So in December 2020, I almost feel like I should save this because I'm going to issue the mind blow now, like as a trivia question. This is the trivia question, okay? What was the first ever? regular season major league game played in the city of Toronto.

So that's the trivia question. Don't answer again. You ask that to a bunch of sports fans, you ask that question. I think every single one of those people will say, oh, it was April 7, 1977. The game you were at, we talked about off the top. I think, I'm going to say

100%, 99 to 100% of people, if we just go to the Blueer Young subway, we pop in and grab 100 people and say that trivia question. What was the first ever regular season, major league baseball game played in the city of Toronto? That's your answer. But I'm going to ask you now, Harvey, is that the correct answer to that trivia question?

No, it is not. See, I think that's a mind blow. The correct answer is a Negro League regular season game that was played at Maple Leaf Stadium in 1932, between the homestead grays of Pittsburgh and a traveling team called the Cuban Stars. Now let's explain this a little further. So in December 2020,

much to the credit of Major League Baseball, they retroactively granted major league status to various Negro leagues that existed between 1920 and 1948. So the timing of the trivia question is significant. But since December 2020, That 1932 game is the correct answer to that trivia question. And I think that you would win a lot of bar bets today if you were to ask

somebody, ask Norm about that one. I should put that to the test, actually, at my local. So there is a WhatsApp group with listeners of this podcast. And I literally just yesterday just dropped in that trivia question. And the wording is important because you've got to state it's a regular season game because those Yankees exhibition games wouldn't count. And you got to say it's a major league game. You don't, it's a major league game played in Toronto.

So if you phrase the trivia question properly, so I did it. And then of course, pretty much right away, it was Hey ref, I believe, who said April 777. He says he watched it on TV. And then you get to be the smart ass who says, incorrect. Get out of here with that nonsense. Don't you know anything? And it's interesting to read in your book that several Negro League games were played in Toronto over the years. Yes, some count as quote unquote Major League and others do not because of the leagues that were involved.

There were such games played elsewhere in Canada too in Hamilton, St. Catharines, and Chatham in Ontario, and some games out west as well. And worth noting, well, I think that's fascinating. And when I look back at that announcement made in December 2020, I think that was a very, very astute move by Major League Baseball. Yes, it'll never change what happened in the past, but it's a try at least to smooth the waters a little bit. Long overdue.

Jackie Robinson played baseball in Toronto. Yes, he played as a minor leaguer with the Montreal Royals of the International League when he was with that club in 1946, which was his. his only minor league season before coming up to the Dodgers. Yeah, that's a great piece of Jackie Robinson's story, his time with the Montreal Royals. And because I did an episode, I'm going to shout out an episode because last night, Harvey,

I was in Kensington Market at a bar called Handel Bar because FOTM Hall of Famer Cam Gordon had a launch for his book, which is called Track Changes. And I made a little speech, but I saw there at this event, I saw Leslie Taylor and there is a Father's Day episode of Toronto

Mike with, where we talked about Leslie's father, who was Russ Taylor, and he was a broadcaster in the early days of the Montreal Expos and would broadcast with Jackie Robinson, for example, like, so just shouting out Leslie, who I got

to see at Handelbar and her father who, we did a campaign and we're still working on it, but we believe her father, Russ Taylor, belongs in the Canadian Baseball Hall of Fame in St. Mary's. I see. I think that would be fitting for Joe Kreisdale as well, who was the radio broadcaster for the Leafs for many years.

Okay, then what about, I have another name I'm going to throw at you for the Canadian Baseball Hall of Fame before we get to some of these personalities. You write about in-depth in your great book. But what about Rob Butler? Like, this is the only Canadian who ever won a World Series

with a Canadian franchise. That's an interesting idea. It's a tough one because there seems to be a dual purpose for putting players into the Canadian Baseball Hall of Fame. One of them is for Canadians. They played a lot of ball. They were very, very good. The other is they played for Canadian team,

and they were very, very good. And never the twain shall meet in a lot in most cases. And also what works against Rob, of course, and his brother. But his brother never won the World Series. That's a big difference there. But Rich, who I've had on the show because I recorded live from Christy Pitts during some Maple Leafs games and I had the Butler Boys on. It was tremendous.

But what works against Rob, I think, and I don't think he denied, is that he did not have an excellent Major League baseball career. Like, it wasn't a long, fruitful career, you know. But he did get that hit off Shilling, as I recall, and he was a part of the World Series team. and I just think that's interesting that, you know, Jays have only won two World Series, but there's only one Canadian who was a part of either of those teams.

There's another thing about Rob Butler that seems to slip under the net, and that is the fact that he won a minor league batting title, and you would be hard pressed to find a Canadian baseball player who won a minor league batting title. That was when he was playing for the St. Catherine's Blue Jays in probably still the late 80s, possibly very early 90s. Yeah, East York legend. Yes.

The Butler boys. The family comes from Newfoundland. I've had many chats of Rob, but the butler is apparently a huge surname in Newfoundland. So there's some Butler history for you. The Butler did it, is what I'm telling you, Harvey. Okay. So I got a couple more names I'm hoping we can talk about here. And then another couple more pieces of trivia that I learned from your book.

But because you made this long trek here, to talk about your book, which is called Before the Blue Jays professional baseball in Toronto prior to 1977. Harvey, I'd like to give you a few gifts. What do you think of that? Sure. You can't say no to free stuff, right? Because then I'd be sending you to see some psychiatric help, I think. We've got to see what's wrong with Harvey.

He doesn't want anything free stuff. But I have for you today a large frozen lasagna, courtesy of palma pasta. I'm telling you, when you make up this lasagna, you'll be telling me, Mike, that is the best store-bought lasagna I have ever tasted. That's great. Thank you very much. So you don't leave home. Don't leave home. Don't leave for home without that lasagna from Palma pasta. I swear by the good people at Palmapasta. They're in Mississauga and Oakville, but you can go to palma pasta.com and you can order online and cater your events too.

I've catered several events. In fact, TMLX events, and we're going to have one. the last Thursday of June, which I believe is April, May, June. Three months from today. So that's at Great Lakes Brewery. So speaking of Great Lakes Brewery, that's in South Atobico here, they sent over some fresh craft beer for you, Harvey, to take home. Thank you again.

And the big announcement from Great Lakes, where's my drum roll? That sounds cheesy if I play a drum roll. But today is the official launch of the Sunnyside Session IPA. So this is the, summer brew of choice for yours truly here, and I'm excited that it's back. So it replaces the fighting weight octopus. So you have one of the last cans of the fighting weight octopus,

and soon I'll be giving gifts some Sunnyside Session IPA. So today is Sunnyside Day across this fine province. What else do I got for you, Harvey? Okay, let me give you a measuring tape. That's for you. Thank you. Courtesy of Ridley Funeral Home. And just yesterday, I was with Brad Jones.

He's the funeral director and the owner of Ridley Funeral Home, and we recorded a fresh episode of Life's Undertaking. I highly recommend you maybe pause this program and then search your podcast app for Life's Undertaking and subscribe. Every two weeks, Brad and I have a great chat, and yesterday's chat was no exception to that. It was fantastic. So thank you to Ridley Funeral Home.

Speaking of great podcasts, Nick Aini's has a new show called Mike and Nick, and it's literally 25 to 30 minutes. every two weeks where Nick and I discuss the world at large from our unique perspective. So I know I'm talking from how I feel about things. And Nick and I often disagree on things. But we come together more often than you'd realize. And we have these civil discussions about this mad, mad, mad world we're living in Harvey.

It's a mad world out there. Have you noticed? I have noticed. Yes, definitely. Years ago, a buddy of mine told me the world was on fire. And I'm like, what's he talking about? Like, life's pretty good. But I'm starting to see, I think he was just a head.

of the game. I feel like this is a firestorm, this world, and I'm nervous about what we're leaving to the next generation here. It's it could certainly be said that it's a wild, wild world at the moment.

You should write a song about that. Oh, baby, baby, it's a wild world. Cat Stevens. Cat Stevens. Yes. And there was a big popular cover. Who covered that? There was a popular cover I remember too of that song, but yeah, that's a Stephen's song. Okay, I digress. Two more shout outs.

Well, actually, maybe one more shout out. I want to shout out, Recycle My Electronics.C.A. because that's where you go if you, Harvey, have old electronics, old cables, old devices. I don't want you throwing that in the garbage. It ends up in our, those chemicals end up in our landfill. Go to Recyclemyelectronics.ca. And put in your postal code and find out where you can drop all that gear off to be properly recycled. You got it?

I got it. Maybe I'll promote my own thing. I know I gotta do more of this. I've been told I don't talk about it enough. Maybe I should talk more about what's happening May 21st. Harvey, this is kind of fascinating to me that I'm going to headline, headlight, I'm going to headline an event. I'm going to perform basically.

Like, it's like a one-man show. I'm going to perform at the Elma combo on May 21st and tickets are now available. You can go to Toronto Mike.com and click Elmo gig at the top. Go on in, man. I did three minutes yesterday at the handlebar. I just posted that video on Toronto Mike.com. You can actually see my three minutes. So that was my three minutes.

But we're doing 90 minutes on May 21st. And it'll just be me on stage with a keyboard prodigy named Rob Pruse, who was with Spoons and Honeymoon Suite. And he's going to be my Paul Schaefer. And I think this is going to be a fascinating night. And it's a one-time only thing. So I hope you come out. I hope there's people there.

that would make it more exciting, but you got to buy tickets. So get your tickets now. You got it, Harvey? Yes. May 21. You wrote that down? May 21. May 21.

Okay. Elma Combo. Be there. All right. What I loved about your book was learning about these names I didn't know. And obviously, I don't want to, I don't want you to read the book to us. That's insane here. But I do want to just a couple of, like, names I'm going to cherry pick here.

Because would you mind maybe, you guys? many great chapters about these personalities, good and bad, right? Warts and all, that's what I like about your book. But can you tell me about Dick Fowler? Dick Fowler was the first Canadian pitcher to throw a no hitter in the major leagues. He did it as a member of the Philadelphia A's, I believe, in the late 1940s. Well, in 1945. I don't know if that's late.

Sorry, post-war in 1940s. Robert Lawson was also at this event yesterday, and he's the official fact-checker of Toronto, Mike. so I had to call you out on that one. But it was September 9th, 1945. Okay. And, yeah, because I got this from your book. So it was his first start in three years and his first major league shutout.

But yeah, he pitched a nine inning, one-nothing no-hitter against the St. Louis Browns. Yeah, it was a time when Philadelphia seemed to be the place where Canadian pitchers ended up. Phil Marshallden, who was from Pentatenguishing, pitch for Philadelphia as well, around the same time period. Dick's a Toronto guy, right?

Yes, yes. So is Dick one of the first MLB, you know, notable MLB players to come from this city? The first notable one was probably Goody Rosen, who started his brief major league career around the same time. And there were fellows who were born in Toronto but didn't live here for very long, or were born elsewhere and grew up in Toronto and indeed learned baseball here. who were from earlier time periods. Okay, great chapter on Dick Fowler,

and I learned a lot about Dick, for sure. So I watched my phrasing there. Okay, when I was going to high school at Michael Power, the Trojans, that was our nickname, I'm sure it's still their nickname, the Michael Power Trojans had a hell of a baseball team. Like this, my last year of high school was 1993, and that was the year,

I went to the dome, skydome. And, you know, I still call it skydome. You're okay with that, right? Absolutely, I call it the same thing. Okay, good, good. We're on the same page. I knew I liked you, Harvey. So in 1993, I went to the Skydome to watch the final.

It was called the Bob Prentice Cup. And we won. So Michael Power was the Toronto baseball high school champions that year. It was tremendous. And since then, this name Bob Prentice, which I knew it was a Bob Prentice Cup, Who is this Bob Prentice? Well, I would learn more and more about Bob,

but there's a lot of great Bob Prentice detail in your book. Yeah, Bob Prentice was a scout for the Blue Jays for many years, and he was also a professional baseball player. He made it as far as AAA. He had a pro career that lasted about a decade, mostly in the 1950s. And one, you know, you talked about him being a scout. So pre-blue Jays, one player he signed, I'm hoping you can say a few words about,

was John Hiller. John Hiller was from Scarborough. He spent his entire Major League career with the Detroit Tigers. Right in the middle of his major league career, he suffered quite a debilitating heart attack, and he missed, I believe, over a year of playing as a result.

When he suffered the heart attack, he was sort of a spot starter, a long reliever sort of a guy. When he came back afterwards, he was a closer and he was a very effective closer. For a brief while, he held the Major League record for most saves in one season. John Hiller, signed by Bob Prentice,

who would later be the scout for the Toronto Blue Jays. Absolutely. Now, here's a trivia question you ask in your book, but I got this one right, okay? I want you know, I nailed this one. And I've talked to this gentleman's son at length for a project that I was doing for a client. But the question is,

name a former Major League pitcher from Toronto with a medical degree and an engineering degree. That would be Ron Taylor. Woo! Talk to me about Ron Taylor, please. Ron Taylor, I believe, was from Leaside. He certainly played for Leaside when he was growing up.

He was signed by the Cleveland Indians roughly 1960, maybe 1959, and he was an outstanding student. and he actually wangled an agreement with the Indians in which he played in the minors starting when the school season was over. So in other words, school would end in June. He wouldn't report to their minor league affiliate

until school was over because his education was important to him. Is he getting all those heavyweight degrees? Yes. As it turned out, he finished his. his engineering degree the year that he was called up to Cleveland. He played about 10 years in the majors. And then when he retired, which I believe was after the 1973 season, he went back to school.

University of Toronto took a chance on him as an overage medical student. He got his MD. Shortly thereafter became the J's team doctor, amongst other things. And he remained in that capacity for many, many years. So Haley Wickenheimer was not the first to do such a remarkable thing. It was Dr. Ron Taylor. I had the pleasure of interviewing Dr. Taylor once several years ago, and he was the best interview I've ever had.

Wow. Okay. Yeah, I wish, sorry, I missed Ron Taylor. Again, I did in a different capacity. It was kind of a mind blow that I was doing a gig for a client at One Yorkville. And I'm chatting up another Dr. Taylor. but it's Ron's son. And he was involved in a documentary

about his dad, Dr. Baseball. And it just was fascinating to talk to Ron's son about Ron Taylor. Was that Drew? Yes, Drew. Drew pitched in the Jays Farm System briefly. And he also played for the Leafs at Christie Pitts for at least one season.

Okay, keep the mind blows coming here. All right, one more trivia question. And then I have some questions about you writing this book here before we say goodbye. You ready? Yes. That's kind of cheating to ask you this question, though.

You wrote the damn book, so you're going to know the answer. But I like this trivia question. The question is, name a player who played for both the, and I'm going to put a caveat here, the International League Maple Leafs and the Blue Jays. The first one that comes to mind is Rico Cardi, also known as the Bigmon, who was a full-time DH once the DH was introduced, the American League in the early 70s. His career was extended by probably at least five, six years as a result of that.

He won a National League batting title back in the 60s, and he was notorious by the time he became Toronto Blue Jay for not running out ground balls. He's a big mon. There's another name. That Rico Cardi is absolutely the correct answer, of course, but there is a second player who played for both the International League Toronto Maple Leafs and the MLB Toronto Blue Jays. That was a catcher Phil Roof, who had about

a half a dozen at bats with the Jays their first season before he retired. So Phil Roof and Rico Cardi. So if you're collecting the bar room trivia questions, that might get you a free round of Great Lakes Beer. Those are another one you can add to the list. So Harvey,

now that you've published before the Blue Jays professional baseball in Toronto prior to 1977, how are you feeling? Relieved. it was a long haul. Only because I'm fresh off this book launch for track changes. And Cam, I think he took several years he spent writing that book.

And I'm like, that's a long time. Like, how long did it take you to write? It's very rich in detail. And again, I think I know enough or more than the average Joe. And I learned so damn much from this book. So how long did it take you to put this together? Elapsed time, in other words, start to finish, including all the breaks,

in the middle. It goes back to the 20th century. But I'm being a little bit unkind to myself if I say that I've been working on it the whole time since then because in the interim, I got married, I had a family. Now the kids are out of the house. My wife works from home. So I've got time on my hands and what better way to spend it than to research Toronto's rich professional baseball history. Yeah. So was any of it tedious or was it all fun because you're a historian, and you're a buff. The tedium for me is always transcribing interviews. Yeah, I can imagine.

But this was a great passion project. And I'm wondering now, so you're now on Toronto Mike. You just made your Toronto Mike debut. You are now an FOTM. That means friend of Toronto Mike. They can never take that away from you, Harvey. Oh, thank you very much. How do you feel about that? That's what we should focus on.

How do you feel about that? You're now an FOTM. I am honored. Thank you. What's next? I was asking this of Cam. other day. Like I've never written a book. I've never published a book. Is this your first book? No, it is not. What's your first book? I've written two others. One was a compilation of

local sports stories that I did for the Metroland Group of Community Newspapers in the Notties. That was self-published. And then in 2011, I wrote a book about the history of baseball in England, because I lived there for a long time and learned quite a lot about the history of baseball in England. You know, I didn't even consider that there would be a rich history of baseball in England, but apparently there's enough for a book? Yes, there was. There are some very obscure... Is it a pamphlet?

What is it? No, no, no, it's a full-size paper bag. There are some interesting stories that come out of British baseball over the years, including, for example, a team in the early 1890s that won the national championship that was made up completely of music hall, in other words, vaudeville performers. Okay, there's a mind blow for you right there. Wow. Okay, so Labor of Love,

it sounds like it goes back to the 1900s writing this book. So that's a long haul there. So when you finally, what is it, Dundern Press publishes this, right? So at some point you have to deliver a final version of this, I guess. Actually, when I, when I punted the book at them, it was already written. The first draft was already written.

So it wasn't a situation where they wanted a, that would have been happy, I think, with an outline in a couple of complete chapters, but the book was written, so I sent what I had. So here's my question for you. So it sounds like you're retired, but you've written this great book. So, and of course, the Blue Jays start their 50th season tomorrow. And this is sort of like the history of pro baseball in Toronto prior to that moment, April 777. Where do you raise awareness about this book?

Like, do you get on breakfast television? Are they going to talk to Harvey Soccer about the history of baseball? Or do you get on the, I don't know, on CFRB? I guess we're calling it News Talk 1010 now. Like where can you go and where are you going to tell the world that you just wrote before the Blue Jays, professional baseball in Toronto prior to 1977? This is my fourth podcast in about the last month. I will be participating in another one later today.

Can you name these? I want to know who the heck is. I thought I had an exclusive. I'm very upset, Harvey. Who are these podcasters? Can you tell me these names? I'm putting on the spot. I'm not off the top of my head.

Okay, but you've done three. Were you able to do those remotely, like from your home office? Yes. Does it upset you that I made you drive all the way to South Othotico? No, it's a part of the city that I don't get to see very often.

And do you think it's, I'm curious, now you've done three remotely, because I am, this is a topic of, that's bouncing around my head lately. Do you feel like this is a better, environment for this conversation or would you wish you could just like do this on zoom or something oh no zoom is very impersonal um i prefer this mode actually well this way gets you a lasagna there is that they don't send you any beer right when you go on these for more no it won't fit in the

wire what's the next podcast you're doing um i you can't remember i i'm not going but are these are these are these baseball podcasts yes like would you be would you be uh able to get on, what's the name of Mike Wilner's Toronto Star? Deep Left Field. Is that what it's called? Deep Left Field. Would you be able to get on Mike Wilner's Toronto Star podcast? Would that be a place you could talk about this?

I don't see why not. I feel like he's a big Canadian base. He's a big St. Mary's guy and he's a big advocate for Canadian baseball. Wilner should be talking to Harvey Soccer. I would be okay with that. Well, you know what? This is the gateway, I think. So you came on Toronto Mike.

Now he, you know, he's going to see that because he follows me on Blue Sky, et cetera. And he's going to be like, he might even listen because he's a baseball fanatic. And he would be like, oh, I should get Harvey Soccer on my podcast. If they want, the Jays can put me in the booth for a half inning. And I would be glad to sit there and chat with the lads. Okay. Well, I don't know if Willner can make that happen because, you know,

Sportsnet fired him. Yes, I know. I don't know if he has that power anymore. Maybe back in the day here. But, okay, and are you a big Blue Jays fan in 2026? Yes, definitely. Can you get over being that close to the World Series and not achieving the goal? Like, I'm kind of haunted by how insanely close we were to being champions.

Some conspiracy theorists claim that we live in a giant simulation. And in relation to the J's not winning the World Series, despite everything that they did last year, I got to believe that the programmer put a couple of bugs in the simulation on purpose. Yeah, maybe a ICF, maybe a little more lead off of third base or something like that. We're talking about a millimeter here. You know, just like I don't want to talk about what happened to the Toronto Maple Leafs NHL team as we speak now, I don't really want to remember that World Series because heading into game six, it was Halloween.

So, you know, I take the kid. I even told my 10-year-old, well, she was 9. at the time. I'm like, we got to wrap by 8 o'clock. We're going to have to wrap by 8 o'clock. There's something on TV, Daddy's got to watch, okay? Because I was so certain we were clinching that thing in game 6 at home on that Halloween night. Okay, you know what? I got to stop this right now, Harvey. This is cruel and unusual punishment.

I'll just tell you, in the listenership right now, that I love the book and any baseball fan or Toronto history fan. Jeremy Hopkins, if you're listening, before the Blue Jays professional baseball in Toronto prior to 1970. I highly recommend it. Harvey, it was honestly great to meet you and chat about professional baseball in Toronto prior to 1977. Likewise. Thanks for having me on the podcast. Even just all these, I'm thinking of the Toronto baseball ground. I'm thinking of, we didn't even talk about Rosedale Field.

We did mention it in Rosedale Park. Just all these professional baseball stadiums that exist. existed in Toronto and are no longer to be found. I am of the opinion, last thought for the day, that Maple Leaf Stadium didn't have to be destroyed. What do you think? From what I've read, it had to be condemned. But you hear that about a lot of buildings that end up not being torn down.

We could have restored it or something. I just thought it looked really cool. If they would have extended it so that there were seats across the outfield, it would have had the capacity that was probably bigger than Wrigley and Fenway. And that brings us to the end of our 1,869th show.

One of those shows, by the way, is an episode with Jeremy Hopkins about, what did we call it? Buildings Toronto destroyed but shouldn't have, or something like that. And Maple Leaf Stadium was on the list and we talked about that.

Go to TorontoMike.com for all your Toronto. Front of Mike needs and buy a couple of tickets to see me at the Alma combo on May 21. Much love to all who made this possible. Again, that's Great Lakes Brewery. Harvey's got his beer. Palma Pasta. Harvey's getting his lasagna.

It's in my freezer. Nick Aini's, he's hosting an event for Brad Bradford on April 2nd. Get your tickets now. Recycle MyElectronics.ca. And, of course, Ridley Funeral Home. I'm going to record. The next episode drops tomorrow, but I'm actually going to record it at 2 p.m. and I'm pretty excited making his Toronto mic debut is a tremendous musician, Andy Stokansky,

and accompanying him, maybe even co-hosting the episode, is Blair Packham. So that's going to be totally rad. See you all then.