Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Ralph Benmergui: Toronto Mike'd #660

Episode Date: June 4, 2020

Mike chats with Ralph Benmergui... actually, that's not quite accurate. Ralph Benmergui actually interviews Mike for Not That Kind of Rabbi.

Welcome to episode 660 of Toronto Mic'd, a weekly podcast about anything and everything. Proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, a fiercely independent craft brewery who believes in supporting communities, good times and brewing amazing beer. Palma Pasta, enjoy the taste of fresh homemade Italian pasta and entrees from Palma Pasta in Mississauga and Oakville. Garbage Day. Weekly reminders for garbage, recycling and yard waste pickup. Visit GarbageDay.com slash Toronto Mike to sign up now. StickerU.com. Create custom stickers, labels, tattoos, and decals for your home and your business. The Keitner Group, they love helping buyers find their dream home. Text TORONOMIKE to 59559.

And our newest sponsor, CDN Technologies, your IT and cybersecurity experts. I'm Mike from TORomike.com and joining me this week is the host of Not That Kind of Rabbi and Canada's sweetheart, Ralph Ben-Murgy. Okay, it's not really Ralph Ben-Murgy joining me for an episode of Toronto Mic'd. This is actually the 22nd, I believe, the 22nd episode of Not That Kind of Rabbi, hosted by Ralph Ben-Murgy, with me, Toronto Mic, as his guest. So let's turn the channel to Not That Kind of Rabbi. Hello everybody, I'm Ralph Ben-Murgy. Welcome to Not That Kind of Rabbi.

Hello, everybody. I'm Ralph Ben-Murgy. Welcome to Not That Kind of Rabbi. Every week, we explore spirituality through the lens of being just a human being. This is not a religious podcast, and then it's also not a non-religious podcast. I have no fear of the word religion. As a matter of fact, last week on the episode that we did with Mary Darling, who was one of the co-creators and producers of Little Mosque on the Prairie, a CBC Canadian hit, she was talking about being a Baha'i, and she has been a devout and proud Baha'i for most of her life. And it was so interesting that I went back and I've been rereading all the Baha'i for most of her life. And it was so interesting that I went back and I've been rereading all the Baha'i writings that I'd read before and listening to podcasts and looking at

things. Well, they don't have very many podcasts, listening to YouTubes and watching them of people talking about the Baha'i faith. If you've never explored the Baha'i faith, as your rabbi, talking about the Baha'i faith. If you've never explored the Baha'i faith, as your rabbi, I am suggesting strongly that you pursue reading at least one good Baha'i book about that religion, because there are so many beautiful things. I'll give you one example that I always like, and that is, if you have a boy and a girl in your home, educate the girl, if you can only educate one of them. So imagine yourself living in a situation where people do in the world, where they have to decide which kid to send to the local school because they have to pay an amount of money to do it. And so it becomes a

measured response. Imagine then that you always choose the girl. Why? Because they will mother the children. They will have the first closest contact with children and the more educated they are The more empowered they are and the equality of the sexes which this is remember we're starting this conversation 1806 basically the get the egalitarian nature of the faith says that Equality is everything mind you I did find a little hole in that that I should talk to my Baha'i friends about, which is there is a Supreme Council, a justice council that they have in the Baha'i faith. And it is nine elders who sit on that council.

They convene, I assume in Haifa in Israel, where there is a beautiful Baha'i temple. But at this point, they're all men. There are no clerics in Baha in Israel, where there is a beautiful Baha'i temple. But at this point, they're all men. There are no clerics in Baha'i, but they are all men. And that that would be revealed, the reason why, at another time. That part, like every religion, like every system, there's sticky points. But I must say, every 19 days, Baha'is get together and they feast and worship and sing and enjoy. There is no priest, there is no rabbi. All those clerics would be out of a job. It's a community-based idea. And some very interesting

people have been converted to the Baha'i faith over the years, and many people these days are born into it. So check it out. See how it is. I wanted to talk about one other thing before I introduce my very special guest. He's very special because we work together all the time, and he's a wonderful man. But before I get to who he is and why he is and what he is, I wanted to talk about two different television programs that portray Jewish

people. Both of them were on, I believe, Netflix. So one was, a lot of people were saying to me, you got to watch Unorthodox. Now I'd read the book Unorthodox a few years back, the journey of a woman away from her Orthodox and in her view, quite oppressive family structure and social structure in New York. And it's powerful, and it's painful, and her children are taken from her and kept from her, and lawyers are employed. It's awful. The television program that was made, the limited series that was made, does not cleave to the book. It is a bit of a different story being told. In essence, this woman, who's played by an Israeli actress named Shira Haas, runs from her family and her marriage of a year and is basically hunted because she's pregnant. and is basically hunted because she's pregnant. Otherwise, I think they would have just let her go in this script.

In Berlin, which has its own ironies in Jewish culture, obviously. But, you know, the portrayal would make you think that... And here the conflict lies with me, because I have family that are Orthodox. So I've always seen them as human beings, not as just strange black hats walking around. Even though I could never be Orthodox in any religion. I don't believe it's a good idea for me. But the way Orthodox people are portrayed and unorthodox could not be less flattering if they tried.

Even though they do show the flaws in the humanity in people. I found myself at the end thinking, well, if that's the only interaction some people will have with people from the faith that I was born into, then that wouldn't be what I would want them to understand or see. There's a lot more to the diamond if you turn it around for a while. Now, the other TV show that I'm watching on Netflix that is Jewish is from Israel, and it's called Shtisel, which is the last name of the family that it is examining. That one, I would encourage you with just press the subtitle thing on your Apple box, I would encourage you to watch Stissel because it is a nuanced and complicated journey through the lives of these Orthodox people

with their flaws. And the thing that I learned years ago when I was, my wife and I went to New York and we went on what we didn't realize was the busiest weekend in the year. It was in November. And it was the Christmas crazy shopping. So there was no hotel, there were no hotel rooms. So we ended up in a bed and breakfast in Brooklyn in the Orthodox community. And it was eye opening to be in that it was an entire village within a city of ultra-Orthodox Jews. I'm talking

Hasidism, and Hasidic Jews are kind of like the Sufis of Judaism, the mystical path, but they're also very involved with the rule and the regulation. So we were in this B&B, and we went to the corner to get some food, and all the yeshiva students, the Jewish learning students, because that's supposed to be the emphasis for the men in the faith, is to learn Torah throughout your life, and not even work, just learn Torah. So there were a whole bunch of yeshiva kids, yeshiva bookers, as they call them, in this little deli, where I was picking up some bagels and cream cheese for me and my wife. And I'm standing there waiting for my order. And there's an older man talking to a younger man.

And the younger man is saying to the older man, I don't know what happened. Like, she's kicked me out of the house. They talk fast. She kicked me out of the house. Like, I don't know what to say. I can't tell anyone about this. This is a horrible shame. And why did she kick you out of the house? Because I have a gambling problem. I gamble. I can't seem to stop myself from gambling. And she said, you have to leave. And the guy was so distraught, this young man. And the older man

said, you think you're the only person with problems? And I thought he was going to give him a Jewish one-downmanship thing. I've got a hip, but he didn't. He said, I've had a gambling problem my whole life, and I fight with it all the time, and there are ways you can get help. And I realized at that moment that any resentment I had towards people who claimed to be Orthodox would be in the idea that they're claiming to be better than, that they're holy, that they're superior to me. But in reality, what I saw in this young man was a desire for a construct, an architecture in which he could live his life that would help him to stop straying towards the dark side. And that was for him what he really needed. So to return to Stissel, watch Stissel if you can. And I'd love to hear what you think about it.

If you want to get in touch with me, just go to my Facebook page, Not That Kind of Rabbi, and give me some comments on those programs and on that whole idea of orthodoxy and non-orthodoxy in the religious context. So there, that's that. And next, Mississippi Queen. What was the name of that? Mountain.

Mountain, yeah. So my guest on Not That Kind of Rabbi today, oddly enough, is the man who helps me put together Not That Kind of Rabbi. It occurred to me earlier this week, hey, I've never asked Mike about his spiritual biography. Why don't I do that? Doesn't appear to be a religious person in any way. And yet seems to be a kind and loving human being. So I thought, okay, this one's the Toronto Mike version

of Not That Kind of Rabbi. Now, Mike has over, what is it, over 600? Yeah, we're at like 600 and, this is episode, again, not to get in the weeds here, but I'm going to repurpose this wonderful Not That Kind of Rabbi audio as an episode of Toronto Mike to introduce some new people to your wonderful podcast. So this is episode 660. Wow, one more six and we would

have been in trouble. We could have been in trouble. All right. So Toronto Mike is the name of the podcast that Mike does. And this is not that kind of rabbi. Don't worry about the confusion. Michael, hello. Does your mother call you Michael when you're in trouble? Is that the only time you hear it? Pretty much, yeah. Or when I get like a CRA notice or something. Yeah. Isn't that frightening, that moment when you realize the CRA has sent you a letter? Oh yeah. Because now that I run my own business and I'm in a whole different, it used to be easy. Like you had one employer and there was a T4 and a monkey can kind of put the taxes

together. But now that there's real stuff going on, yeah, every time I get a letter from CRA, I have a moment of like, oh, like this sounds, this could be scary. What did I do wrong this time? Right. And then when I read them, they make even less sense. Is that a credit? Is that a debit?

Do I owe them money? Do they owe me money? Can't they just do it sense. Is that a credit? Is that a debit? Do I owe them money? Do they owe me money? Can't they just do it in English, French, something? I don't get it. So let me ask you a few questions just to try to figure things out. If someone said to you, are you religious? What would you say? I literally get asked that every time I go to the hospital. So I broke, I don't know if you know this, Ralph, but I broke my wrist. And they ask you that.

I guess I go to St., I went to St. Joe's, which is, I guess it's sort of Catholic affiliated, but not that you have to be Catholic to go there. But they asked me that question at the triage nurse station there. And I always answer, no religion. And, uh, I always answer no religion. And how do you feel when you do that? I feel I'm, uh, I'm being very honest with the triage nurse. I mean, I don't have any element. The most religion in my life is when I listened to not that kind of rabbi, like this is sort of

my church, if you will, because I do enjoy your thoughts and your perspective, speaking with people of different, you know, religious backgrounds and spiritual, uh, backgrounds. And I thoroughly enjoy listening to all that. And it does make me think, and it, I, and I, I find it very inspiring and profound, but it never actually gives me like a, it never gives me a, an itch to, you know, explore a religion for me or my family. Like, so right now it's, there's a complete absence of religion in my, uh, my entire personal life. And that's fine. Well, it's, I think it's my choosing. Like, I think, uh, I mean the full thing,

I was raised, like I was raised with religion and I went to schools that were Catholic schools. And that means, you know, you, you start collecting sacraments because you're kind of, it's ingrained in you, you know, you got to get your first communion and there's a confirmation. So, uh, you do all these things, like you're collecting points or something. Like, it's like a McDonald's when you get your 10th coffee for free like so you start collecting and then uh when i got married the first time at that was i was probably i was very young i was 21 but uh i i just 21 yeah so i got married the first time at 21 and i made a conscious adult decision to to invite God, if you will. So a justice of the peace did it at City Hall. And then even as a much older, more mature person,

when I got married the second time, my wife Monica and I made the same decision. Like, let's just, we did it at the distillery district and we did it without any religion or God, if you will. And I have four children, none of them baptized. None of them have been, you know, raised with any religion at all. One of them is now almost,

is 18 and a half almost. And so far, so good. Like, I feel very comfortable with this decision. So when you were a kid, do you remember having any thoughts about what God is? I, the way I look back at it is I was told that there was a, remember having any thoughts about what God is?

The way I look back at it is I was told that there was, I was ingrained from the beginning, like because I went to a Catholic school, this was sort of part of it. We started every morning with the Lord's Prayer, and we were told that there was a God, and he sent his son down to die for our sins. And we learned about the resurrection, which is that this man died on the cross. And then a few days later, he kind of shows up.

Hey guys, how's it going? Like he's- I don't think it quite went right now, but okay. I'm paraphrasing, I guess. But you know, this is stuff, and I will say this, you know, you give me, like I have, again, I'm a father of four, you know, this is stuff. And I will say this, you know, you give me a, like I have, again,

I'm a father of four, like yourself, uh, very similar, just a little bit more of a gap between the first two and the next. Okay. So, but I can tell my four year old now that,

uh, I don't know that, um, monkeys can talk and I can start telling her that every day. And in a few months she will be a hundred percent, like she will a hundred percent believe that monkeys can talk. It's so, you're so impressionable,

vulnerable. And if you put info in, you put info into a child's head and you keep, you know, as somebody they trust so much, their father, like my, I trust my father so much.

If my father is telling me this is true, these kids will believe it. So I was definitely raised, and until I was a teenager, I guess, I just thoroughly believed what I was told. Because why would all these people I respect, these authority figures, why would they all lie to me? So, of course, it's true. So what did God look like to you when you were a kid? I think he wore Birkenstocks, I think. It's funny, I'm wearing the Fred Penner shirt. He had a beard, I think, like Fred Penner, I would like to say.

Soon I'll be saying like Ralph Ben-Murray. But I just pictured an older white guy with a beard. I didn't really drill beyond that, sort of that archetype. So to me, that's the kind of Santa Claus God, right? The naughty and nice list, man on a chair, older man, white beard. Exactly.

You know, he sees everything. You've got to, you know, he's watching. You got to behave. You know, it's very, tell that to a 13-year-old boy that, you know, God's watching everything. It messes you up. Did you feel like that, that God was watching you and how you were behaving? Oh, yeah, for sure. I definitely felt like, I felt like, yeah, until I was a teenager, I definitely felt like he saw everything.

Like Santa Claus, right? Like a lot like Santa Claus. It's funny how, again, if anyone has children listening, maybe you can turn it down for a couple of minutes. But it's funny how these two stories are pummeled into you. And at some point, they confess, oh, we made up this one story. But the other one's true. But then, you know, at some point, I just... What do you mean they made up this one story? Which one did they make up? The one Coca-Cola invented. Oh, that guy. the santa yeah when you

have to admit to your children or they finally just look at you and go dad i know there's no tooth fairy there's no santa claus yeah i was trying to be more subtle because uh you know some people listen to uh this program in the car with the kids or whatnot but i did give him a head well i insist that there is a tooth fairy. That part I'm insisting on. I would go get a pair of pliers right now, yank them all out if there was, because I could use the cash. My father used to pull my tooth out of my head.

He'd say, you know, it was loose. And he'd go, okay, then I count to three. And he'd go, one, two. Right. And that was the Moroccan dentistry that I grew up with. But I used to hear about tying a string and then to a doorknob yeah but that was sort of a looney tunes thing okay right that wasn't for most people i don't think that ever happened do you see how impressionable i was see i still are apparently right so okay so um that doesn't sound atypical.

That sounds very typical of people's upbringing, where they sort of get this pediatric version of religion as straightforward, no metaphors, no poetry, just these are supposed to be the facts. And then, of course, when you get to adolescence, you ditch it. You just think that's just a load of crap. But even when I was ditching it as a 15, 16-year-old, part of it I couldn't shake for a long time. For example, I decided I was going to go to U of T after high school.

And you have to choose a college at U of T. Did you go to U of T? No. I missed that one. Okay. I went to a bunch of them, but I didn't go to that one. Well, you have to affiliate yourself with a college and I'm at the downtown campus and I can't remember. There's like five or seven of these things. I don't know. But, you know, University College and Trinity and one of them is St. Mike's College. Now, I... Is that just because your name was the same? I had to choose a college, and I think maybe one... It didn't matter, but one of the colleges was probably cheaper than St. Mike's,

believe it or not, when I was paying, and I was working at a grocery store to pay this tuition. Long story short is, when I picked a college, I chose St. Mike's because I felt I had been to a Catholic primary school and I'd been to a Catholic high school and I thought, well, I should be affiliated with a Catholic college. Like this is actually at a point where I don't really believe it anymore,

but I still felt like I should do that. And then, so I'm like 18, you know, you know, in Ontario, we used to have a grade 13. We called it OAC.

My boy thinks that's ridiculous, but we, uh, so we're about 18, I think. And I'm still kind of, it's still in me spilling out into places. It's still in you. Right. Where is it in you? It was in my brain from the, and again, I'm... Now. Is it in you now? If it's in me now, it's well hidden because, I mean, now I'm in my mid-40s.

And it's not a thought I ever have. Like, I never have any thought about it because in my home, and during COVID-19 times, your home is everything, by the way. That's the whole universe right now. But in my home, there's nothing. Like, there's no crucifix on a wall there's no mention of prayer there's no uh there's just there's not even a little fragment a little thread of any kind of religion do you have any rituals in your house do you have

any or is it just christmas is still the deal and christmas. Well, Christmas for the two little ones are full believers in the Coca-Cola Santa Claus. And Easter comes and there's an Easter egg hunt, primarily by the two little ones again, because they're all in. And yeah, so that's it. Like very secular, I'd say. Yeah. So I have no judgment of these things. My wife is a humanist deficient. You know, we're both Jewish, but she's a humanist deficient and marries people without any mention of God. And what I think God is, I mean, if you want an interesting conversation, I did one of these with a bunch of kids who were 12, and they were

getting pre-bar mitzvah classes. So somebody asked me to come in and talk with them from that synagogue. So I sat with them, and I said, so what I want to ask you is, what do you think God is? And they had fantastic answers, but they were all different. And I think there's an assumption that we make that when somebody says God, we're talking about that Santa Claus God. So people don't want to talk about it, but the bigger questions, religion sometimes can help. So when it comes to dying, give me your thoughts on what death means in your life well it's going to depress you ralph but i'll tell you i believe that you know you when you die uh that's lights out like to me

you will start to experience what you experienced before you were born so you'll have no awareness and your body of course becomes uh you know maybe worm food or if it depends on what happens with your body but uh there is that's it done there's nothing after death in my uh nothing after death right like so there's no but you said that you you would return to what you were before your awareness like because people will often talk about like, oh, I often hear like, oh, he's in a better place now. Like this is a common phrase you'll hear, like if somebody's suffering with an illness or something and then they pass

and he's in a better place now, she's better now because the pain is gone. And it's not that the pain is, what I believe is that the pain, it's not about the pain being gone or about it's not that the pain is, what I believe is that it's not about the pain being gone or about, it's about no awareness. So when I compare it to before you were born, I'll say like, well, what did you feel? Like, what do you remember from before you were born?

And they're like, there's nothing. I have no awareness of this time. That's what you return to when you pass away. So why are we here? Well, away. So why are we here? Well, I mean, why are we here? Yeah, why are we here? Why are cockroaches here?

Why are we the animal that actually knows it's here? You know, I look at my dog. My dog has no idea that it's going to die. She has no idea. It would never enter into her consciousness whatever that means that there's a purpose to any of this right is that where we're at like no there's no purpose it's just like i didn't die i think this is just a wonderful happenstance like that this uh you know perfect recipe if you will for the the evolution to this point. Like we're animals, but you're right. We are unique on this planet in that we, like you said,

we have this depth of consciousness that other animals on this planet lack. But I believe it's just through millions and millions of years of evolution, this perfect storm, you know, from a single-celled organism to you and I chatting via the internet today. Like, it's just a wonderful recipe. Is that just a coincidence? Yeah. Is that just, it's all random?

I believe it's all, yeah, I believe it's all random. Like, it just, it happens. So what gives, so then I return to the question, what gives meaning to your life? What's the purpose of your life? Okay, so when I... Is there one on a well the purpose of my life i believe is uh that i would call it maybe good citizenship like i really do at this age at this at this old age it's it's really my intent to like improve the lives of others as best i can within reason like i do try to i help people best i can within reason. Like I do try to, I help people best I can. And I really am passionate about raising four children

who do the same. Like I want them to respect Mother Earth. I want them to respect their fellow man and woman and treat everyone the way they want to be treated. And I mean, if you have a conversation with my almost 16 year old daughter or my 18 year old son, I think very quickly you'd see that there's no religion in their lives either yet.

Uh, they have chosen no religion yet and probably cause they were raised about religion, but they're sweethearts. I like to use that term. They're sweethearts and that they're very kind, very generous. They wouldn't hurt a fly.

And really, that's kind of what fills me with pride, is that doing my very best to raise four great citizens of this planet. Yeah. No, I totally hear you. There's Robert Buckman, who passed away, actually, a doctor, a major humanist in Canada. He wrote a really nice book, Can We Be Good Without God? Because when you were a kid, like you said, there was a God watching you all the time. And that helped police your behavior.

Bingo. Even though sometimes it just made you feel horrible, like you're 13 and you're masturbating and you're thinking, this is the most awful I should never do. And yet there's nothing awful about it at all. It's a perfectly normal thing to do. So it didn't help some people, right? But so the idea that you don't need God to be good. And what you're talking about are humanist principles. Every religion has the same crowning phrase,

do unto others as you would have them do unto you. That's it. Like the golden rule. I know, but it's almost impossible, it seems, for us to do it. Right? You know, you really have to. So I'll give you an example. My cousin.

Oh, my printer's going off. My cousin sends me uh sells me a car and he says uh so here go and i said well i can give you half now and i'll give you half in september i've got a gig coming up in september this is like 30 years ago and i'll be able to give you this uh this money and he said that's No problem here. You got to sign this. And I said, you're my cousin. What do you mean? And he said, he's Orthodox. And he said, that's the way it works. That's the law is that, uh, so you never muck up your relationships with the people in your family with money. You make sure that you sign contracts together where you're both know what you have to do and

what you can't, what you can't get away with. Because for all I know in August, you might break your leg, God forbid, and you won't be able to do that gig and you won't get that money. So what am I supposed to do then? And I just thought that was interesting because it was an architecture that he said he needed that you're saying, I don't need that. And I believe you because I work with you that you're the, I don't need that, and I believe you because I work with you. No, really, because you're the kind of person who would say,

I'm trying to be a good person. I'm not trying to get away with a life. I'm trying to build a life that my children can be proud of. And I'm very big on benefit of the doubt. I'm not a mat that you can wipe your feet on. If you screw me over once, I try not to let you screw me over twice. Well, but religion doesn't say you're supposed to let people run over you. There's a lion's roar in the spiritual life of people. So let's talk about spirituality.

If somebody said, are you a spiritual person, what would you say? I would need someone to define the term for me. I would like to think I'm a thoughtful person. Like I spent a lot of time, I go on these bike rides every day and I spent a lot of that time thinking about things. So I like to, you know, you know, sometimes there's superficial things like, oh, you know, I think this song is really about that or something. And I'll like kind of break down a song in my head and stuff. But, you know, sometimes it's like lately, for example, I've been thinking a lot about uh Black

Lives Matter and Black Lives Matter and the movement that we're uh that's really come to the forefront in the news as we record this like so that's I'll be thinking a lot about that so I'm I'm definitely not a I don't think I'm a surface guy like I I deep think and I I I'm a surface guy. Like I, I deep think, and I, I, I'm not a, I ask my, ask my kids, like I, I will cry when certain thoughts or emotions get to me. I've cried on my podcast when certain subject matters struck a certain nerve or cord. So maybe you define spirituality for me and I can answer it better. I'm not too sure. It sounds like you're talking about sensitivity okay and uh inquiry that you want to understand things and that you're a sensitive person but do you feel that you are ever in contact with in a relationship spirituality for me is about relationship to yourself to others and to the planet and to the cosmos right right

so do you ever feel like some people will go for a bike ride or a walk and they will feel that they are kind of in touch with something greater than themselves do you ever feel that um i do like i love being out in nature and i enjoy you know getting away from the uh the busy toronto streets and trying to some, like in the ravine system or something and kind of surround myself with green space and where I can hear birds and sometimes a rabbit will cross my path or hopefully not a coyote,

but you never know what's out there these days. Or deer, if I'm really lucky. At Park Lawn Cemetery, you can see a lot of deer at this time of year. So I do like nature and I like camping. I like to unplug for a period of time and camp with my kids. And does that make me spiritual, Ralph? I don't know.

I mean, I'm asking. I don't know. Do you feel yourself connected to something greater than yourself? It sounds like you're telling me you feel connected to nature. I like nature a lot. Which is greater than you. It sounds like you're telling me you feel connected to nature. I like nature a lot. Which is greater than you. Right. Right?

I mean, you can live in an urban setting, never get on a bicycle, never take a walk on a path in a ravine. Right. And just keep walking the sidewalks until it's over. Right? Yes, you could. Get out of the car. Right. And oh, that's the other thing.

I've, as I get older, my is this it helps that i no longer need to it's been i guess nine years since i had to commute to an office but i can't imagine going back because i can't imagine having to sit in a car for any period of time on a regular basis like i my car i like it you know i i try to avoid the car at all costs i that's why i bike everywhere i can and even with the kids the young ones uh who might not be able to bike to this 10 kilometers to this thing we need to go to, I throw them in a trailer and I'll try to bike it. So does that make me spiritual?

You're my rabbi. Not that kind of rabbi, though. I want to point out you're a rabbi, but not a rabbi, if that confuses you. You know, look, I mean, I hope you don't think I'm sitting here thinking, judging you and thinking, you know what, you're not spiritual enough, you're not religious enough, you should try a little harder. Like, I have no judgment of any of that. I give the benefit of the doubt to myself in believing that if a person is attempting to be a good human being, and religion was kind of the roadmap for a lot of people, for thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal,

thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's partner. There are mosaic laws, as it were, that we take for granted that we live by. But the wrong reason, to me, that goes back to the whole God's watching, so be good, as opposed to where I'm at today, which is be good because, A, it feels good to be good. And B, you want people to be good to you. And so be good to others. Like, so I know that kind of sounds like the golden rule there. Maybe it is. But it's, to me, a much better reason.

Like, it's much better than doing it out of fear. It's almost like you're doing it out of respect versus fear. To me, a much better reason. It's much better than doing it out of fear. It's almost like you're doing it out of respect versus fear. To me, it's a... So some people would say karma is the issue. They don't like to say God. They don't think that there's a God. Some people believe that there is a God that judges and punishes and rewards. I'm not one of those guys.

I have absolutely no interest in that transactional piece. I do understand that different religions have evolved at different times. The Baha'is talk about this, that there was a certain social order, the society in which he had found himself was rife with violence and war and total chaos going on. When Moses, when Abraham came on the scene, child sacrifice was normal, de rigueur. So you had to say things that to us seem obvious and brutal. And these days, you have to wonder where's our moral compass in a society where you have an idiot king in the United States who is literally walking around with a Bible he's never read, getting people to tear gas and attack so that he can walk across the street for his photo op with no sense of moral obligation to the people who he's speaking to. So if we lose our moral compass,

where do we go? So for some people, a spiritual practice allows them to remember to be grateful, remember to be kind, remember to be, like in Judaism, giving the benefit of the doubt. So there's somebody in front of, or somebody passes you and they're speeding, and you think, what a jerk. What did he do that for? Maybe you give them the benefit of the doubt and say, you know what, maybe they just found out that their wife is in the hospital and they're freaking out and trying to get there right how do i know right right yeah and i i you never know what kind of day that other person is having absolutely you don't know what they're what people and people are good at hiding things like you know you can present a front like uh things are great look at my instagram account i have

the greatest life look at this but meanwhile you know it could be be what's actually happening. It could be very traumatic and sad and horrific even. Yeah, so you never know. You never know. I know this is not that kind of rabbi, but you are a proud Jewish man. Right. You were raised Jewish, right? Oh, absolutely. man right you were raised jewish right oh absolutely so but if you were raised uh catholic you could i could be speaking to a proud catholic man right now of course so that's okay so yeah but

that's not a that's not that doesn't mean that look and this is a like mary darling was on the last episode of the baha'i will tell you, and in the Jewish practice that I do, one of the rabbis who is one of the great teachers of that Jewish renewal movement is Reb Zalman Schachter Shalomi. And Reb Zalman says that every religion is a vital organ in the body of humanity, that they're all important and necessary and just as valid as each other. So I have nothing. So when I went to talk to a friend of mine and said, look, you know what? I grew up in a culture that when I think about it, the way it was transmitted to me or the

way I understood it made me want to degrade the idea of Jesus. That, you know, come on, he was a Jew, he was a rabbi. I mean, come, you know, the son of God, let's not get crazy, right? And I realized I still had that in my DNA. So I said, so I need you to help me understand what is Jesus. And she said, well, first thing you should know is his license didn't say Jesus Christ. Christ is not his last name. Jesus is the human manifestation of divine that we can attach to ourselves and have a conversation with, a particular conversation.

And Christ is a consciousness, a universal consciousness in which one can see that just like in Judaism, you can say, the trees breathe life into me, and I breathe life into the trees. So every religion should be respected equally. If you're born into one, great. And if it takes, great. And if it doesn't, and you want to become the largest movement of Buddhists in North America are Jews, movement of Buddhists in North America are Jews. Juboos, they're called. Right? So it doesn't really matter.

It's just respect that other people can either have belief or not have belief. It's their actions that matter. But these religions, and there's many, many... In fact, that religion, Mary Darling Baha'i, is that how you say it, Baha'i? I only learned about it from hearing Mary Darling talk about it. Then I had to go to the wiki page and start doing a little digging. I didn't even know about Baha'i. Oh, it's fantastic. And yet, for me, the study of people trying to understand why we're here,

what our purpose is, and how we should be with each other, and what are the ways that you can reinforce doing good things in the world. So I'll give you an example. If you're an Orthodox Jew and somebody's sick who you know, it's not a question of whether you should visit them because what happens to us is we say, you know, I really should visit Mike. He broke his wrist. I've got to see how he's doing.

It's just like, but I'm busy. I've got so much to do. I'm sure he'll be fine. I'll give him a call sometime. My father would come home from work, eat, tired, tired, working in a hospital as a nursing assistant all day, getting my mother, coming home, eating at 5.15. And he didn't give his coat on.

And I'd say, where are you going? And he'd say, Mr. Ben-Ayan doesn't feel well. I got to go see him at the hospital. And then he'd go for half an hour to visit, sit, listen, come home. Why? Because he was religiously obligated to do it. Not because he made a choice on his own. So that's, for some people, why they need that.

So even hearing you talk about these different religions, you know, Tara Sloan was on talking about Buddhism and Michael Korn was on. He's now practicing Anglican, right? He's been through a few different religions, I saw. His father was Jewish. He became a devout Catholic and then decided wrong

road. And there's nothing wrong with that. No, I mean, all these religions have their own like rule sets i'd say like there's a lot of rules going on especially when you get i heard you talking about the show orthodox i actually watched it with monica on netflix and once you get to i guess the the orthodox of any religion well these rules get more intense like uh which is why, for me, so I'll give you an example of Matthew Fox, who was a Catholic, a monk, you know, a cleric. He got to a point where he said, what we're doing here is Jesus-olatry. We are worshiping Jesus, not the creation.

And he got kicked out. And he started something called creation spirituality. And in there, it's the confluence of all kinds of spiritual practices, native Indian practices. So for me, I just love trying to figure out how we all connect to the greater thing than ourselves, thing than ourselves and how we show gratitude for it. So how can you truly believe that things like God is really the loving creative force of the universe and then create products with black plastic as the packaging, which can't be recycled? I can't figure out how the two come together. Well, That's the thing. I'm all choked up.

It's such a great topic. But this rule set that all these religions have, these rules were literally written by men. Human being men wrote these rule sets for these many, many different religions we have in the world. And then it seems to me the vast majority of people who buy into these rule

sets and follow them were literally, I would say, brainwashed as a young person, like if I can use that term, because we talked off the top about how impressionable young people are. And if you tell them something, they will believe it. Like many of us have. So I guess I have trouble putting aside spirituality and talking religion. I have difficulty with something that is clearly man-made with a bunch of rules that are really antiquated, like from a previous era, if you will.

And that because I was born to parents who were brainwashed to believe this, now I must brainwash my own children by baptizing them and getting them that first communion. It just seems very unnecessary if you don't need religion in order to not murder somebody. I'm not going to murder anybody. If you enshrine it in civic law, which we've done, it's because it was a good idea at the time and it always will be but let me answer that a bit by saying um you can tell your son till he's 18 that toronto maple leafs are truly the best hockey team right on earth and that the montreal canadians are pond scum literally right and should

never get into the playoffs again because they're so arrogant. Right. Right. You can, you can tell them this. And you know, I've had two to my older boys. One of them was a big hockey fan. Actually both of them were and the least, the least, the least, the least was a religion, right? They almost went to blue face, right? So you pass on to your children what you believe to be important and real and true. So it doesn't, you can call it brainwashing,

but as a parent, your job isn't to sit there and go, you know what, whatever you want. Like go to sleep when you want, do what you want. No, no, but Ralph, we- You kick the kid in the shin, he probably deserved it. He's a schmuck. No. So there's a, there's one point. The other point is people who are connected to something greater than themselves in terms of a, a cosmological view of life. There's a word in Hebrew called Hineni. And what it means is, I am here.

So the question asked in counseling, spiritual counseling, which I do sometimes, is not where is God? It's where am I? Am I actually aware that I am living on this planet? Am I actually aware that I'm in relationship with people? And that there is, in my world, a spark of that cosmic energy in each of us, and that my job is to spiritually connect myself to that person and them to me. So to do that, I need a bit of a fitness program. Otherwise, I'll go visit Mike

with his broken wrist or I won't. But if I have to go visit Mike, Mike would actually appreciated that pre-pandemic. Mike would have actually appreciated that I'd walked or driven to his place, you know, 40 minutes away and said, how are you doing? Are you all right? And you would have thought, what a nice guy came over. But I came over because I was obliged to come over as much as because I wanted to, because I want to, but I can't be bothered. And who cares? Nobody does it anyway. But see, that sucks because, you know, Ralph, real talk is I want, if you come over again, pre pandemic, if you come over to see me because I have a broken wrist, I want that to be because you wanted to see me. Like, I don't want it to be because the rules said…

But I do want to see you. No, no, no. I would actually want to see you, but I know that every choice is arbitrary. And what we have grown up in is a highly individualistic and highly rational society. So two things come into play. One is the joke I always do with you, which is don't tell me what to do. Right. The other one is prove it to me. I want a fact. If there's going to be this God talk, show me God. And the answer often is show me love.

Can you show me love? Can you show me that thing that you looked for and you found and then you lost and then you looked for and you found and then you lost? You think those are equivalent though? Yes. Because one is an emotion, sort of like anger or happiness, right? And the other is an actual presence, some kind of a... Love is, you can't truly bottle it, keep it, know it. It is changing throughout your life.

And God is not a guy. For me, it's a verb. It goes on in a flow of creative energy that I, if we would turn off all our lights and see the million stars in the sky, we'd get the joke. If you live by a great body of water like an ocean you get the cosmic joke if you when you were 19 or 20 did mushrooms or even acid which i did when i was that age you get the joke but the problem with the mushrooms and acids they wear off So it's not a permanent condition of when you look out. And I remember actually realizing that a tree was breathing because I was, I think it was, I was on acid or something. So I'm staring at the bottom of a tree in the middle of winter,

and there's a ring around the tree where there's no snow or ice. And I realized that tree is generating heat. It's alive. We're all alive. It's an animist view of spirituality that within everything there is the creative spark, the stardust that makes up who we are. So to me, God is not a guy. God is the action of creation. But it sounds like Judaism is your drug of choice now. Like this is your drug of choice.

You know what? It sounds like Judaism is your drug of choice now. Like this is your drug of choice. You know what? The world, the creation, the evolving of spiritual thinking, that's my drug of choice. Where I come from is from being Jewish. Could I be a Buddhist? Absolutely.

Could I be a Baha'i? Probably. Do I care to start all over again? Or do I fold in the beautiful things about those teachings into who I am now? I have a question. With those, because I mean, I've come to know you quite well over these past six months. It turns out I like you. I just want you to know that. Like straight up. Despite all the previous press.

And I would love a visit in non-pandemic times. I would love a visit from Ralph Ben-Murgy. Maybe if I'm lucky enough to break my wrist again in non-pandemic times, you'll come by. But my question for you, Ralph, is all those things you described, could you be an atheist and still apply these same values that you have? No, I couldn't be an atheist because I can't. That's an orthodoxy. There is no God. There is no afterlife.

There is no before life. I maybe I'm more romantic than that. Maybe I'm more come from the arts than that. But I'd like to think that life has poetry. And that life is unknowable. And that being confused is a grace, not not a curse. I like to think that this journey for for me, as I say to people, For me, as I say to people, we are just micro cells in the body of the universe that is constantly creatively moving. All I've got to do is figure out whether I'm a cancerous cell or a healthy cell. That's my job.

To articulate my soul is to be able to say, on any given moment, on any given day, am I headed towards being healthy or cancerous in the body of this creation? So to me, that's a religious practice in and of itself. What do you think will happen to me when I die? I have absolutely no idea. But I refuse to think that I know, and that in my knowing, the answer is, well, you go to this first place, and then you go to this other place, and then there's this guy at the gate. And then, you know, I don't, when people are that certain, religious or atheistic, I'm like, how can you actually be that sure? Who cares? But you're applying the absolutes. That's not your job. Like you're applying those absolutes on your own because the way I think of it is I can reasonably assert that there is no God.

Like this is a reasonable assumption that I live my life by. How can you reasonably assert that? Right. But I don't speak... Like how can you reasonably assert that there's nothing when you die? How do you know?

Well, to me, you can't prove a negative. You can't prove... No, no. You're making a positive assertion. There is nothing after you die. I think I used the word reasonable. A reasonable assertion. I make the reasonable assertion that there is... Why? What proof do you have that there's nothing?

Well, that's what I'm saying. You can't prove a negative. To me, the onus would be on if you want to prove that there is something. That's where you can put the plug in it. It's just like rationalism again. So what in life is mystery and what in life is provable? And to me, I think they're in equal measure and I respect the mystery. I like to dance in the rain of it and try to figure out what it means. But I'm certainly not going to go, you know, until you can actually prove this to me. I think you and I, sorry, can't prove anything. Right.

But you, I believe the way I look at it now that I've got to know you so well. And again, I'm the guy when I when you're booked on Humble and Fred show, I write the notes I look at it now that I've got to know you so well, and again, I'm the guy, when you're booked on Humble and Fred's show, I write the notes and I send in, Ralph Ben-Murray is a national treasure, and he is Canada's spiritual guide. So this is, yes, these are things I write and submit to Humble and Fred. Let me look inside your phone, my friend. But, I think we all need a spiritual life of some kind. I don't think it's enough to have

a material life. That's what I think. And so when I say to you, do you have a spiritual life? What I see is a man who loves his children, cares deeply about his relationships with people, and is curious. That to me is a spiritual life. And I don't, I don't, uh, you'd mentioned material. I actually, I'll get my wife and put her on this microphone. I buy, I consume so little that's not essential stuff. Like I, yes, I need some hardware and stuff to record podcasts and things. And I got to keep my bike in working order, but literally, like, you know, honestly, I,

uh, I don't buy things. I don't, cause they don't bring me, I don't need, if I don But literally, honestly, I don't buy things. Because if I don't need something, I definitely don't buy it. But I guess the point I wanted to make before I went on that tangent was that I believe you and I, Ralph, I believe we're on the same path and we're wired the same way. You've chosen to cloak yourself in an organized religion, and I'm kind of going rogue, and I'm going to do it myself, if you will. And that's the only difference I see. I would remove it from that.

I would say that we're seekers. We're both seeking a meaningful life, right? So to me, purpose matters. If it's just pay the bills buy stuff get pissed off that the other guy got something better than you got and then you know i i feel sad but if you're actually trying to raise moral people moral children trying to be a decent human being. Those are, in religions, what you're trying to do. There's architecture and scaffolding for people who feel that they would enjoy that journey. Every week, there's a new parsha, a new chapter in the Torah that Jewish people,

if they are observant in any way, will discuss. And in the discussion of that, they will extract whatever they think is the interesting part of this, the relationship between brothers, the surrendering to a higher power, you know, and then you can talk about AA and why it works and all these different things, but there's always something, you know, the idea that man that the word dominion does not mean subjugation, right? Man has dominion over, right? All of these, all these different ideas are worthy of discussion on a regular basis,

but it's like a curriculum in school. If you don't have the curriculum, how are you supposed to learn the geometry? If you don't have the curriculum, how do you know? If you don't have a sense of history, how do you know that right now what's happening in America is the architecture of fascism? That the man in charge of that country, and you can see the antecedents, the fake news was the lying news for Joseph Goebbels and Hitler. First, you have to tell people that they're not hearing the truth, that you are the truth. And then you have to tell people that no one can save them but you, which Donald Trump said at the Republican National Convention

before he was even the president. People didn't listen, but they didn't understand their history, so they're doomed to repeat it. If you don't have a spiritual context, you can ramble sideways any way you want. I'm not saying you have to have a religion. I'm saying that it's important that we cultivate spiritual lives for our children and ourselves. So does that make sense? I get where you're coming from and I respect it. I don't feel it's necessary. Absolutely. For me. I get it.

Which is why you're rot in hell, basically. I'll see you there, Ralph. I'll keep you. That's right. I'll be there first. So don't worry. I'll warm the spot for's right. I'll be there first, so don't worry. I'll warm the spot for you. Am I allowed to say, I hope so, or is that rude? That we'll meet in hell?

No, that you'll get there first. You just don't believe in hell. Oh, that I'll die first? That's a bit rude. Because the alternative means I went too early, and I'm trying to avoid that. Why do I hear somebody squeaking downstairs. Do you have a dog?

Do you have a dog? I have a dog and three cats, but that doesn't sound like my dog. Because I can hear it faintly in the background. I just assumed it was your dog. Either that or a plushie toy has exploded and I don't, they're crying in anguish. I don't understand. All right, listen. We'll agree that religion has no place in your life.

Well, I don't believe it is necessary. And why would you add this man-made rule set if it's unnecessary? Unnecessary. All right. So how about laws? Do we need laws? Well, I mean... Are you a libertarian and think we're all going to just... No, I really wouldn't go that far. I would say that some people do need laws.

Sure, I'm talking about myself. I can only speak from my perspective. Laws aren't stopping me from breaking into my neighbor's house and taking his nice new television. Yes, they are. Because if you're caught, you will be punished for breaking into.

But if you could guarantee me I wouldn't be caught, I'm still not going to do that. Well, there's no such guarantee. If you do the thing you're not supposed to do there is a consequence so we do have laws and rules lots of them a red light supposed to be a red light sure but we know they're man-made and uh my point of course they're man-made we're doing it to protect ourselves collectively so again i know this would require another i know not that kind of rabbi is

not a three-hour program like toronto might but but i guess i i guess uh if if all these you know i mean hundreds of different religions there are if they're all on these rule sets made by man like who are you to say that these rule sets were divinely presented from a higher power a god if you will like it just seems to me like uh what is the difference between an organized religion and i don't't know, the Branch Davidians or some cult that, you know, is emerging from some Texas or something? Well, what's the difference between being a casual hockey fan and literally punching somebody in the face outside of the Air Canada Center because they're a Habs fan? Right, okay, some people do take that too far too seriously. But again, when you did your comparison... And some people take religion too far or perverted. You can pervert

being in bowling leagues. People are always telling me religion makes people bad. And I said, no, no, we have this part of us that is clannish, is fearful, is negative, and we really have to be careful about it. And wouldn't it be cleaner to just wash your hands of all this, pardon my French here, all this nonsense and just do, do the right thing and live, live a full life that helping others best you can and try to raise children to be,

you know, can you do both? Can you be either religious or non-religious? Well, that's actually the, there was a period of time in angrier younger years where i felt like religious people were kind of like sheep and i felt i would thought down upon people who were truly believed in the religion like like what is wrong with you and i guess as i age that's gone

now like the judgment on those who do like yourself i have no judgment on you for practicing you know following these rules from your religion and believing in it. You're really hung up on the rules thing. Well, isn't that everything? Like, can you go enjoy a BLT? What about congregation, community building, service to others? Yeah. Like, I mean, yeah, no, no. But you keep going back to the fact that a bunch of guys made up these rules.

Why should I follow them? And I'm thinking, wait a minute, a bunch of guys made up a bunch of rules that you are following. You ride a bike every day. If people didn't, at least some of them follow the rules, you'd be dead by now. Right? Right, right, right. So the rules are to help us not crash into each other and mediate problem solving. Sure, but so many different religions in the world, right? Like everybody in Toronto has the same bylaws, traffic bylaws. Well, singing in a choir is singing in a choir. If you're doing it as a Gregorian chant or the Handel's Messiah or Ko Nidre in Yom Kippur,

it doesn't matter. It's that bringing people together and sharing in a moral code, but also in a community life that says, we will recognize you when you're married. We will recognize you when you pass into adulthood. We will recognize you when you die. That these are markers that help people to actually bring more meaning to their lives. They're not just rules. I hear you, Rabbi. All stuff I think about on my bike rides, all very interesting, thought-provoking stuff. Well, I thank you for being my guest,

even though you're my producer, so I appreciate that. Was I supposed to record this? I can't remember. I thought we were just... You know, we could do it all again. I'm sure we'll remember every single word and cherish it.

There's no doubt about it. My guest is Toronto Miked, and he has... How do people get in touch with you? Well, Ralph, I'm not Toronto Miked. I'm Toronto Mike. My podcast is Toronto Miked. Well, that's what I meant. Your show's called Toronto Miked.

How do people get in touch with Toronto Miked? I'm on Twitter, at Toronto Mike. You can write Mike at torontomike.com. I would hope that if you like what you heard here, you might like, uh, Toronto Mike, my podcast.

You can fall, you know, if you're listening to not that kind of rabbi right now, you could pause this and go follow and, and, uh, subscribe to Toronto Mike. One guest you will find in the archives is,

uh, Canada's, uh, national treasure, Ralph BenmerMurray. I did do one, didn't I? I would say you did more than, way more. I would say you've done a few.

Oh, I did the music one too. You kicked out the jams. You did one. I kicked out the jams. I remember you were hesitant to come over. You're like, who is this? I didn't know who you were and you were driving me nuts. You kept bugging me. Well, it's a short drive, Ralph.

Who the hell is this guy? And then finally I thought, you know, he's being very nice about asking. So I'll go. That's my secret. I'm nice when I ask. Manipulative. Is that what you're telling me? Persistent but kind. Those are the secrets to landing a great

guest like Ralph Ben-Murky. I'm just a nudge. I thank you for your kindness and your tolerance in having me grill you in your spiritual life. I really do appreciate it. I am indeed Ralph Ben-Murky and this is Not That Kind of Rabbi. And please, if you're interested and enjoy it, I just heard from a friend in Philadelphia yesterday who said, listen to every episode so far. I'm loving it. So you can subscribe. Well, I'm loving it. So you can subscribe. Well, I'm enjoying it. I have to tell you, my first wife got in touch with me. We're still good friends. And she said, this is your sweet spot. You found a place to be. So I'm very happy

for that. So Not That Kind of Rabbi, you can subscribe. It's on every podcatcher out there. So you just type in Not That Kind of Rabbi and you'll find it. And you can get in touch with me at Ralph Ben-Murgy on Twitter. And the Facebook page is Not That Kind of Rabbi. Do you want a fun fact before you say goodbye to everybody? Yes, I do. Okay. So this is an episode of Not That Kind of Rabbi with Ralph Ben-Murgy. But I'm going to take this audio and put it into the Toronto Mic'd feed.

So Toronto Mic'd subscribers will hear this as an episode of Toronto Mic'd. But this is not the first time a guest of Not That Kind of Rabbi has done that. Can you name the previous guest of Not That Kind of Rabbi who also repurposed your audio and put it in as an episode of, I'll give you a clue, his podcast? Are you ready? Is it for me to answer? You're the only one whose voice I can hear.

I don't have the voice of God in my head. Yes, you do. Bob Ray, former Premier of Ontario, former interim leader of the Liberal Party of Canada, the man who introduced the motion that brought down the Joe Clark government, and a mensch. Correctamundo. Correctamundo.

Well, thank you, sir. And I appreciate the time you spent with me, as I appreciate the time the listener and viewer, in some cases, has spent with us. Take care of each other, and we'll see you again. I think my next episode is going to be with Sarah Sleen. So, Not That Kind of Rabbi will be back in about a week. Bye. අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි Terima kasih telah menonton! අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි Thank you. අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි අපි This podcast has been produced by TMDS and accelerated by Rome Phone.

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