Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Remembering Tom Stephen: Toronto Mike'd #1210

Episode Date: February 22, 2023

In this 1210th episode of Toronto Mike'd, Mike remembers Tom Stephen, drummer for The Jeff Healey Band. Toronto Mike'd is proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, Canna Cabana, Ridley Funeral Home and Electronic Products Recycling Association.

Welcome to episode 1210 of Toronto Mic'd, proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, a fiercely independent craft brewery who believes in supporting communities, good times, and brewing amazing beer. Order online for free local home delivery in the GTA. Order online for free local home delivery in the GTA. Palma Pasta. Enjoy the taste of fresh, homemade Italian pasta and entrees from Palma Pasta in Mississauga and Oakville.

Electronic Products Recycling Association. Committing to our planet's future means properly recycling our electronics of the past. Ridley Funeral Home, pillars of the community since 1921. And Canna Cabana, the lowest prices on cannabis, guaranteed. Learn more at cannacabana.com. I'm sorry to share some bad news I just received. Tom Stephen, who was the drummer for the Jeff Healy Band

and an FOTM, has passed away. In honor of Tom, I'm going to share an edited version of episode 439 of Toronto Mic'd, which featured Tom Stephen. This was recorded in my basement studio on March 7th, 2019. Welcome, Tom. Good to be here. No, it's good to have you here. I told you this before I pressed record, but I'm going to say it again,

and I am not blowing smoke up your ass. I love your book. Thank you. It's, like, made for me, man. Just really, like like raw and honest, like warts and all. Like it was just a great, great book. I really appreciate that.

And that was actually, that was the desire when we started was to be warts and all, but at the same time, pay tribute to what I consider to be one of Canada's greatest guitarists and a wonderful man. Jeff Healy, yeah. I mean, we're going to talk about yourself, of course,

but you're comfortable with the fact the bulk of this show is going to be about Jeff Healy. Absolutely. I wouldn't be sitting here if I hadn't met Jeff. And that seat you're in now, that's not the best seat in the house, just to be clear. So we'll talk about Jeff Healy,

the Jeff Healy band yourself. But if people, like what's your desired way for people to buy the best seat in the house? Like if people like what they hear and they want to read more and straight up,

I was really into this book because again, it's respectful to Jeff and his genius. But at the same time, you didn't sugarcoat stuff. I was reading it and I'm like, we'll talk about I was reading it and I'm like,

like we'll talk about some facts you dropped and I'm like, wow, like that's just interesting. But like what's your preferred way for somebody to pick up the best seat in the house?

In Canada right now, it's I believe in Indigo bookstores and it's also online, indigo.ca. Indigo.ca. You know, I asked because I record a podcast with Mark Hebbshire. He's like a sports media guy.

Yeah. And he was in this morning to do his show, Hebbshire on Sports. And he just put out a book. And he pushes people to buy direct, he says. And I don't need to know how books compensate the author or whatever. But he's like, he gets, I don't know, I'll make it up. He says, I get like two bucks if they buy it at Indigo, but I get like 15 bucks per book or whatever if they buy it direct.

You know what I mean? That's true, but at the same time, this isn't necessarily for me about making money. It's getting the word out. And when it's in Indigo and you buy through Indico, it counts also as a sale. So that helps the conversation, if you will, right across the country.

And that's really the goal of the book, is to remember who Jeff was and is. And that's the goal of this episode of Toronto Mic'd. I warned everyone on Twitter, this episode's all about the Jeff Healy band. Greatly appreciate it, man. That's excellent. And in your opinion, you might be

a little biased on this one, but is Jeff Healy the best blues guitarist in the world? Look, you know, I'm not going to dodge it. I can tell you this. Forget what I think. The best blues guitar players in the world who we got to play with thought

he was the best blues guitar player they'd ever seen. They would know, right? Guys like B.B. King, Stevie Ray. Now, that's not to say, I mean, but God, Stevie Ray and B.B. were gentlemen and excellent. What Jeff had was a unique versatility that a lot of guys just didn't have and girls didn't have. Jeff could hear a couple notes in any style of music and he'd be playing that track in 30 seconds um obviously the style was unique but but more importantly the musicianship that's that's what constantly i would hear from from his peers and we're very lucky the greats at the time anyone whether it be uh george harrison or or paul our own own Paul Schaefer.

I mean, they were just blown away by Jeff. And oddly enough, in our own country at the beginning, people were blown away by Jeff. So that's a story unto itself. I'd like to throw just a quick correction, if I may. Oh, yeah, of course. We co-managed. So I was not the sole manager.

We were basically a management team per se. Born out of necessity, I might add, because nobody wanted to manage us. I'm glad. You'll have to clarify throughout the episode as I butcher these facts. Oh, no worries, man. I appreciate the time. Now, I was thinking as I'm like,

I was excited I get to talk about the jeff healy band for like 90 minutes i was excited because i bought see the light on cassette because i heard confidence man on q107 okay and uh and i got it and then i heard like and i love see the light and we're gonna we're gonna deep dive in this very shortly but uh and of course uh angel eyes and i'm like uh, this is kick ass. Like it was kind of like, it was bluesy, but it was a rock.

Like it was, uh, I wouldn't pigeonhole it and call it bluesy. Cause it was, I saw, I heard it as rock and roll, but I loved, sincerely loved the Jeff Healy band as it was,

you know, breaking in, in real time. So I'm excited to kind of talk about them and, uh, you guys and, and, and revisit the great tracks. But as I was thinking about all this, I was thinking, I got to remember,

some people listening aren't going to know who Jeff Healy is. Like, I can't assume, right? So let's begin by stating something that will be very obvious to people who know Jeff Healy, but Jeff Healy could not see he was blind. Correct, yes, yes.

And remind us, it was a cancer at the age of two? Actually, six months and one year, as I understood it from what Jeff had told me. So he lost both his eyes, you know. But he had no sight recollection, per se. So he didn't remember seeing. He didn't have any memory of sight, if you will. No, which we talked about several times, but no, absolutely not. And so he had glass.

Were they glass? Yes. What are the glass eyes? He could not see. Okay, great. And yourself, though, Tom, I also read in the book that you also had an illness as a child, right? You almost died as a child? Yeah, I had psoriasis of the kidneys.

And I got very lucky. I was in the hospital about a year, but they came up with a new drug. The funny thing, if there's anything funny about it, is that was my first time on the front page of a newspaper, and oddly enough, behind me was a monkey playing the drums. I didn't realize I was going to be that monkey. And this is the Maritimes? Yeah, that was actually St. John de Brunswick. I was born and raised in St. John,

but I spent a lot of my formal years in Nova Scotia, but essentially I'm a Maritimer. Maritimer. I don't think there's any bad Maritimers. They're all good people. I believe so. Even Brad Marchand of the Boston Bruins? Sure, why not? He does his gig.

Hey, when he's on Team Canada, I cheer for the guys. So when do you first meet Jeff? 1984. I was just jamming around Toronto. In fact, my first time getting on stage was with Danny Marks, who promptly kicked me off the stage and let me know I wasn't much of a drummer. So he did me a favor because it really made me kind of dig in and think about if I

wanted to play. I met a guy called Buzz Upshaw, who was just a big teddy bear of a man, very much a la B.B. King, played similar style, excellent player, garbage truck driver, but really all he wanted to do was last long enough to get his pension, as great as he was. Unfortunately, the poor fellow never lived to see that pension, which made me realize a lesson right then and there. If you have a dream, you should pretty much get at it because you just never know how long you have to pursue these things. Jeff loved Buzz and used to come out and see us play. From that, we jammed once in a while. And in one of those jams, he invited me to Grossman's Tavern.

The idea being to sit in and see how it kind of went. Two things happened that evening. Firstly, having played with Jeff previously, first, I didn't realize the extent of his sight restraints. Because Jeff got around so well, he had no idea that there was a sight issue. I mean, you knew, but I didn't realize he was fully blind. Well, I mean, I've been told from friends that they golfed with Jeff Healy. Absolutely.

I like thinking about that. Yeah. I mean, he can nail the ball on occasion. And I mean, in your book, you reference like Jeff Healy driving. Yes, yes. Motor boats, tour buses, cars. He was pretty open-minded.

He was ahead of that whole bird box thing. I don't know if you... Yeah, absolutely. Way ahead of that. In fact, that night he leapt out of his chair and I hadn't seen him do that. And Jeff was six foot two, 220 pounds. He knocked a lot of things over, including drinks, people, chairs. By the time he sat down, going back to what you said he said uh good night everybody uh don't drink and drive uh i know i don't which which later on i found out wasn't true but when we went backstage the short story is i had said look jeff and i mean coming for me because i caused a lot of trouble over the years in the band but i said look we we got to be serious and you can't really be drinking this much and if we're going to pursue a career and he said tom i'm not drinking i'm blind and that was kind of a odd way

to kick things off but what he told me on a serious note in the same conversation he was seriously thinking on going into radio because um no one was interested in signing him. And he was starting to feel there was no future in terms of a musician's career, which just, you know, I was gobsmacked because I knew nothing about music, but I certainly was a fan of music, and I'd never seen anybody play as great as Jeff Healy. Was he just too unique? Like, I mean, I've never seen anyone play on the lap

like the way Jeff Healy played. Like, was he just too different? Like, what? Because the chops are there. Well, you know, it's kind of like, we'll get into it a little later, but, you know, I had a bit of chip on my shoulder regarding the Canadian history for a long time.

And it's only since I wrote the book with respect to, you know, this issue of why couldn't Jeff get a deal. And what you realize later in life and speaking to a lot of folks in these interviews is the guys at these labels and girls, they, you know, they have to protect their jobs. They got to be sure what they're doing. Blues necessarily wasn't, you know, the big music at the time, albeit Stevie Ray and Fabulous Thunderbirds and all these guys are breaking. So clearly, as all labels are,

they're looking for that next big thing in that genre. What Jeff had told me was there's a sense it was too gimmicky, whether it be the blindness, the style, all of the above. And I laughed. I just didn't believe him. And sure enough, when we formed our own management situation and I was kind of the point guy, a lot of labels just weren't prepared to to take that chance i had guys say it was gimmicky i had other guys say it wasn't

gimmicky enough um but no one was really prepared to to go there and in a sense he was kind of discriminated against for his his disability and uh uh that's why i kind of in the book try and mention that this isn't just a story of music it's a story of and jeff would come back and kick my butt right now because you know he was not a guy who wanted to be coddled because he was quote unquote blind um um but i mean he overcame a huge hurdle here to achieve what he did and that just makes it that much more remarkable, makes him that much more remarkable. So is this a good time to talk about, so there's a trio. So at this point, does the trio kind of form?

Because, of course, Joe is your bassist. So you're the drummer, Joe's the bassist, and of course, Jeff Healy. I noticed who gets his name in the band name i guess was there ever any uh chat about that one or no never no i mean i i could think in other i mean i mean i mean look i was just happy that the guy knew my name so okay so maybe just before that uh like would you say you were like a good drummer no no going no. Going into this, I was starting to become a good drummer in that Buzz and Hawk Walsh before him and kind of from Downchild.

Of course, Hawk took me on mainly because I think he liked to use my reel-to-reel recording. I mean, you learn these guys are hustlers and it's an interesting education. But I was starting to learn about the blues what jeff liked about me was i hit him hard and i was free for him because you know i had never really played in a band so i was a garage guy who played the led zeppelin and the who and so jeff was free for him he he liked uh we never played or rehearsed so we never played the same song the same way.

Later, a few months later, when we meet Joe and he became part of the trio, he fit into that really nicely. And in a sense, Joe became the timekeeper and I kind of jammed out with Jeff. Interesting. And I want to get you to New York because, and this is wonderfully detailed in the book, but tell me you had a plan to like bump into Paul Schaefer, right? This was the strategy, right? Yeah. In writing the book, the co-author, because I realized at the beginning of this, I was by no means an author and I would need help. And I uh keith elliott greenberg several years back and keith had had a couple bestsellers one on john lennon and he's also a producer over at nbc in new york and um he was a fan of the band but it was it was kind of a thing where where we had to really hang out

for a couple years just to you know i had to really trust him because this was this is sacred to me uh the band and jeff and but keith turned out the agreement was look i'm going to do a lot of research which i had no idea the kind of things keith was able to find because he found things i mean i lived through and didn't even realize and uh and the deal was essentially what what he found went in the book now i had a bit of a veto in the sense that if I thought something was just a little over the top or too sensitive, we'd have that conversation and he'd back off on that.

But what I'd forgotten was, you know, my big plan at the time was I'd go find Paul Schaefer because he's Canadian. I mean, we were really green. We had no idea what we were doing. But those were his plans. That's not a bad plan. So you basically were going to travel to New York

and bump into Paul Schaefer. And because you're both Canadian, he was going to get the Jeff Healy band on Letterman? Was that the plan? That was the plan, yes. Not a bad plan. Or, you know, we always were shooting the moon at all times. Now, I didn't make it to Schaefer.

In fact, I got kicked out of NBC. But along the way, I did meet the drummer. And he said, look, there's some A&R guys. You might want to come down and see this gig tonight. I can't remember the club now in New York. He was playing. And he said, if you can get in, I'll introduce you to some A&R guys. Now, i was so

green i didn't know what an a&r guy was well tell us what tell us outsiders what is a&r stand for artists and repertoire which by the way i just had to find that out to write this book well i asked now i'm pretending it's for the listeners but it was for me i'm like what does that r stand for records like a repertoire and uh luckily enough um anton was the man of his word i made it into the club and uh managed to get our packages out and uh one of a couple folks one from electra and one from arista records who represented clive davis uh mitchell cohen and another guy howard thompson came to toronto saw the band and and immediately flew us to New York. Of course, myself and Jeff went out and hit every club in the city,

including a place called, oh boy, it just went out the way. Old age is kicking in here. It'll come to me. It happens to all of us. It was one of the great jam clubs where all the greats hung out, rock and roll, hip-hop, whatever. It was a nice cross-section. We ended up jamming there all weekend, and Jeff, which is a total sensation,

unfortunately, by the time we got to our early morning meeting with Clive Davis, which, by the way, I didn't know who Clive Davis was at the time, he was later explaining to me, think of him as the, think of him as the Beatles of record executives. And we were in rough shape when we finally got in front of Clive. But the good news was the word was out and he wanted to sign us literally on the spot. Okay.

Let's, yeah, you signed, I mean, you signed a nine album deal with Clive Davis at Arista. Now let's just get a little like moment here to take this in. with Clive Davis at Arista. Now, let's just get a little moment here to take this in, because Clive Davis is a big fucking deal. Can I say that?

Oh, yeah, beyond. Beyond. And at that time, I guess, so this is late 80s? What is this, 80? 87 going into 88. So he's like, right now, his big project, I guess, would be Whitney Houston, right? Is that all going on now?

Yeah, yeah, Whitney's. But keeping in mind, Clive started with Janis Joplin. I mean, that was his first huge project. And Aretha Franklin. I mean, it would take us an hour to explain all the things Clive did. But what – sorry, carry on. No, I was going to say that – so Clive Davis personally wanted to meet you guys. So he's flying into New York to meet with clive davis you must know at that point that uh good things are

going to happen like uh clive's probably not meeting with uh bar bands you know what i mean like this is uh well all the enough he was because that's what we were he saw something but you're absolutely right i mean when, when I showed him the video, when he had seen the video, and that's a story unto itself. We owe that to a guy called Alan Resnick. Okay, which video? See the Light, first video ever made.

Because it was done in like 86 or something. Yeah, 85, 86. Alan Resnick from Ryerson, 500 bucks. And to this day is my favorite. We then had met the guys from Powder Blues, the Lavin brothers who were transplanted Americans in Vancouver. When we were in Vancouver, they recorded our first single, See the Light. A and Adriana was B. And the cool thing was all of a sudden now we're getting our own radio play. Because again, we had no label, we had no management. Much music is just breaking at that time.

And next thing we know, this video is getting a lot of play. We'll get a little see the light here. Cool. Listen to that. Nothing like it. And Jeff wrote this song, right? Absolutely. I'm trying to see, can I get this to 11 here?

I know we did. So I'm wondering, when the guitar sounds like that, who cares about the drummer? Indeed. Indeed. Can you see the light? Can you see the light of me shining in my eyes? Can you see the light? Can you see the light of me shining in my eyes? Well, you know I need you, baby.

And I sure am, I said you don't lie. Now that's a jam right there. Now, a little fun aside before we dive deeper here is that I told my mom you were coming on because the famous family story for decades now is this guy named Brother Tom from Newfoundland. Brother, I guess, not a priest, like a father, but a brother, like, something to do with the church. He's Brother Tom. And he

was related to my grandmother, and I was in Guilford, Ontario, at my grandmother's house, and Brother Tom was there, and Brother Tom went to me. I was, like, a teenager, and he said, do you know Jeff Healy? And I said, Brother Tom! I love Jeff Healy.

Like I was a big fan straight up. And he said to me, you're related to Jeff Healy. Okay, I get the true story. This was a long time ago. I don't know why I didn't have follow-up questions. Like how am I related to Jeff Healy? I know. And if my mom has no idea, I go,

how did you not have follow-up questions? But we figured it was like a, I don't know, a second cousin type situation because he must have been kind of distantly related. But I was told at that time, and I've decided to believe it's true. Whether it's not, I don't know. But that I am related to Jeff Healy. Go with it. I'm going with it, man.

And I think I've mentioned it a few times in the podcast. But when I mentioned it enough times, there's a gentleman named Al who has a Toronto Mike bingo card. He'll create a square for it and then people can get bingo. That's a whole inside Toronto Mike thing there. But see the light written by Jeff Healy. This is the song that you play for the video you show Clive Davis and he gives you a nine album deal. Yes. Okay. Pause right there. Yes. Okay.

Pause right there. That's amazing. But I have to give you some things now while I have a moment here. Let Jeff go down here. There's a six-pack of beer in front of you. Tom, that is courtesy of Great Lakes Brewery. Beautiful.

Let's give her a crack. Oh, yeah. Oh, do you want me to go up and get you a cold one? Oh, this is plenty cold. Are you good? Okay. That's cold down here. My last guest was Jay Gold, and he told me it's too cold down here.

But I think it's like the Letterman. Remember at the... It's nice. Very nice. Okay, which one did you crack open? Okay, Canuck Pale Ale. Yep. It's great.

That is a great one. Enjoy, my friend. Thank you. That's brewed here in... Is it after 12? Well, it's closer. It's 12 o'clock somewhere. In Nova Scotia.. Thank you. That's brewed here in... Is it after 12? Well, it's closer. It's 12 o'clock somewhere. In Nova Scotia. That's right.

They're a local craft brewery here in Etobicoke. 99.9% of all Great Lakes beer remains here in Ontario. That other 0.01%, that goes to Halifax, actually. There's a place in Halifax that sells Great Lakes beer. Okay. So next time you're there, pick some up. But you can also, of course, pick it up in Ontario.

We love our Great Lakes. And I'll tell you, Tom, and everybody listening, you're all invited to Great Lakes Brewery on June 27th from 6 p.m. to 9 p.m. We're going to have some great music from the Royal Pains and then special guests, Lowest of the Low, are going to perform for the Toronto Mic Listener Experience. So this is an exclusive event for anyone who listens to Toronto Mic'd or has been a guest on Toronto Mic'd. Again, that's no joke. That's Lowest of the Low.

Did you ever cross paths at all in your CanCon rock career with Lowest of the Low? Nope. Nope. Because you guys were, they're more like the... We met some lowest of the low, but no, not that. I think it's a quote from George Bush Sr. I think. Oh.

He said something about lowest of the low I think. I think that's the origin story. Yeah, so come to Great Lakes on June 27th. And also we talked earlier whether you wanted vegetarian or meat. I have one of each in the freezer. That's a lasagna from Palma Pasta. And you're welcome to take that as well, Tom. I'm in.

You're in. Four locations in Mississauga and Oakville. Palma Pasta is Mississauga's best fresh pasta and Italian food. Please go to palmapasta.com to find a location near you. And also, I'm told, of course, you can, they cater events. Like, so if you're, I don't know, for example, my, the daycare that my two, two of my kids go to, they have this like a meeting of all the parents get together and they, they cater it at Palmapasta. So any event use Palmapasta, great-run business and proud sponsors of toronto miked tell me about the debut album like how it came together and i'm really curious about uh the single angel eyes and uh let's hear from you tom um the the you know this whole thing about overnight success i mean we've been banging away in can Canada for about four or five years.

We signed a deal, I believe, 87, late 87. And next thing, not only are we told we have to make a record, but we're sending a script. And in the script, it's a band in this roadhouse and the band's fronted by a blind guy in a power trio. And I read this, I'm like, man, come on, there's only one trio I know of who they are.

And I phoned Clive Davis and I said, Mr. Davis, with all due respect, I'm pretty sure that's us. And he goes, well, Tom, why do you think I sent you the script? So, you know, live and learn. Off I go to L.A. I meet Joel Silver, who's the producer of the movie Roadhouse. Right. And, you know. Can Jeff act?

Now, Jeff had actually acted a couple times. I had not known that. A couple bit things he told me later on. Never mentioned it while I was going down there. But the problem we all had was, well, who wants to be in a movie? And Joel said,

look, can this guy, you know, is he movie? And Joel said, look, can this guy, you know, is he smart? And I said, look, if you meet him today and you run into him five years from now and say, hey, Jeff, he's going to remember your name. I said, OK, we'll fly him down. Now, Jeff really wasn't sure if he wanted to be in the movie. And what I liked about this whole story is Hollywood's an obnoxious kind of place. Joel was pretty heavy duty uh right out of the movies you know you'll never work in this town kind of guy and I remember he said to Jeff when we flew down Jeff you know I'm really thinking if uh if you know if you're a fit for this movie or not and uh Jeff kind of looked at me and said well Joel to be candid I'm I'm I'm kind of thinking

the same thing I'm not sure if I want to be in the movie or not. And that's Jeff. I mean, he had big balls. So we're listening here. This is Doors cover, Roadhouse Blues, which was like it was a hit, right? Yeah. It became kind of the theme song for the movie.

So we ended up doing two things. We produced our album and the soundtrack. Well, I was going to ask you, like, the ordering, because my brain's remembering See the Light comes out first and then shortly thereafter the whole Roadhouse Blues. Is that the right order? Pretty much, yep. But keep it in mind that we're recording all this at the same time.

So you're on the set at 6. Like Mr. Davis said, you guys are going to work 8 days a week, you know, 30 hours a day. And I hope you guys are up to it. And he wasn't messing around because literally, you're on the set 6 in the morning. We'd be in the studio by 6 that night. We'd be cutting tracks for the movie.

We'd be cutting tracks for our album. We got to work with the great Jimmy Iovine who founded Interscope Records and then later Greg Lodoni who who's no longer with us produced the actual our own album but it was you know all of a sudden nothing's going on and the next thing you're in Hollywood work with the greats well you were let's remind people if they haven't seen it but that's a that's a Patrick Swayze film absolutely and Sam Elliott's in that thing and like you mentioned Jeff's And Sam Elliott's in that thing. Yeah, great. And like you mentioned, Jeff's got a great role in that movie.

Well, the role progressed as we were on set because what happens is we become drinking buddies with Patrick and we became fast pals. And Patrick really took Jeff under his arm and really promoted him and, you know, of course I'm always

pushing, can we get more, can we get more get more and sure enough Jeff actually becomes a pretty inaugural part of the of the film and the lucky thing is all these years later it's still on cable somewhere every two weeks and this year is its 30th anniversary oh wow yeah and you're you're in it because it's you're the bar band or whatever. Yeah. Amazing. Typecast. Yeah. So, I mean, one thing that strikes me is the Jeff Healy band is... Hold on.

He's doing his Jim Morrison here. He's amazing. He's amazing. I mean, the guy could do anything. Here's my question. Are you worried about being, at all, being pigeonholed as a blues band? Does it matter to you to be a rock band or not? You know, in putting together the book,

I looked at lots of footage of interviews of the band because Jeff insisted, as a rule, that we all be interviewed all be interviewed which was you know that was very gracious of him because candidly most guys won't care less of showing myself on the road or not I mean Jeff was the was the obvious star but in Jeff's mind we were a blues bass rock band and he felt no later he would you know not really like the music that much it just depended what day i mean we're all human beings but um no we we didn't really worry about that and luckily the reviewers seemed to think it was a rock record you know steeped in the blues kind of thing and uh

keep in mind i mean mr davis would have been happy if we sold a hundred thousand and the record turns around and sells a few millions so well that the good news. The bad news now is all of a sudden you're a commodity within a big industry and what was just a lot of fun and a friendship and a bunch of guys playing music now becomes a big business. Obviously the dynamics start

changing. What I found interesting in the book and again I'm an outsider so it's like I'm getting to kind of peek inside behind the curtain. You guys are wrapping up here, Roadhouse Blues. I thought you played pretty good for a blind white boy. Yeah, and I thought you'd be bigger. Classic. Classic.

Jeff often told me that's why he kept me around. He liked my endings on the songs. Classic. Classic. Jeff often told me that's why he kept me around. He liked my endings on the songs. That's right. I was going to say, so See the Light is a Jeff Healy jam

that he wrote. Yes. And I think the first, I think the first song, I funny, I just, so when Jake Gold was on, I was,

the same era, I'm thinking about that, the big breakthrough for the Tical hip which is up to here yeah which was a bluesy rock sound too and hearing i remember it was blow it high that was the first song i heard on q107 and similarly this is actually the jam i heard first from the jeff healy band Well, I lost you at the border When you crossed it

Had your number, baby But I lost it I know you love me It's just a flip-flop You came from the world of me I'm a confidence man Confidence Man, this is a John Hyatt song. Absolutely. So was that coming from Clive Davis? And you talk about this in your book, of course,

because we're going to get to Angel Eyes in a minute here. But are they gentle suggestions that other people's songs you might want to record for See the Light? Not gentle. No. Not gentle, no. I was being gentle. Yeah. That's Mitchell Cohen.

And Mitchell, to this day, is one of the greats. And he went to Nashville and Memphis and met with Hyatt and found Angel Eyes and Confidence Man, which, you know, I mean, in our career over the years, there's been controversy and conversation and whatnot. These were great songs. Should we have done them? But I look at it differently. The label took the time to help us find great tracks.

This, by the way, became a hit. Yeah. As, obviously, Angel Eyes did. That was our first top five on the Billboard 100. So clearly it introduced us to a crossover audience. So now you're going from being a bar band. I mean, I remember we're in Seattle and there's all these lovely ladies walking around. And I asked the promoter, you know, who are all these people going to see?

And he kind of looked at us and went, you guys. And it was like, oh. So, you know, sometimes you going to see you. And he kind of looked at us and went, you guys. And it was like, oh. So, you know, sometimes you've got to step outside. Clive, in his own book, he writes about us. He actually gives us a couple pages, and I had the opportunity to speak to him after. And, you know, Clive's take on the band was that the band was okay. Jeff was an obvious star, but that we were pretty stubborn.

And that, you know, as Mitchell pointed out, hey, I shot The Sheriff by Clapton and Cocaine. Weren't written by, you know, Clapton, but they're Clapton songs. So what they're trying to introduce us to is the idea of you make them yours and it, you know, helps your career progress. And, you know know we didn't quite get that at the time i certainly in in hindsight being 2020 i understand where they are going and uh but i think i think in a sense it it it it great graded on jeff a little bit because jeff

was our primary songwriter and to tell you the truth songs like i need to be loved see the light i mean i rate them up there. I think they're just as good and in some cases even better. But you can't argue with the success of some of those songs that were brought in. Now, what about yourself? I mean, you're kind of a self-deprecating guy, I noticed in this book. You're not a good drummer. You're not a good songwriter.

So is this just you being a realist, or is this just you being self-deprecating? I think it's me being honest. And also, you know, luckily, Keith got to interview a lot of folks, so you learn what other people think, so you have to kind of assess that. Now, back to the drumming thing.

Yeah. Oddly enough, in the early days, our early press was, you know, we were a powerhouse rhythm section now you play 2 000 dates where you think you'd be a lot better and all of a sudden we suck right so it's kind of like you know people have to write things now you're in the big leagues um clearly a lot of people would like to replace us and be part of the rhythm section other people's want to be the manager so there's some you know there's some there's some sour grapes out there what i'll say about my drumming uh not to defend it one way or the other

is it worked i got to play in a few million records and the many times jeff would fire me hire me back uh usually within the next day or two so so there's something there that that worked for us would i now go on and become like the session drummer of the universe? No, I'm not that crazy to think that. But it worked for what we had as Joe worked for what we had. Our rhythm section seemed to really get it. And the proof in the pudding is I've heard a lot of the tracks Jeff played thereafter with other bands. And by the way, that's not taking anything away from the other bands. And technically, they were probably better better but there was an energy that we had that didn't exist in those recordings that's just my honest take and you know we know of course like of the supremes for example and then you know you there's whole movies can be

devoted to the fact that if there's like a trio or a group with maybe a a superstar lead person and then that lead person, you know, record labels saying, for example, hey, we want the lead guy, but we don't want the rest of the band. And then you have that great moment in a movie where either the star either abandons the band

or says, no, man, we're a combo or whatever. So that must have, did that ever happen with the Jeff Healy band? Like, was there ever an attempt by either Clive Davis or anyone to say, hey, you're the star, Jeff. You don't need these two other guys. I'm just curious.

It was never overt, but it was suggested, certainly. Now, to Clive's credit, no, he stuck it out day one. He said, look, you guys work. It works, but you're going to have to get your chops up. But he liked the band. Were we the best band? No. But he got it.

You know, the guy who summed up the best, I thought, was a name back to our buddy Paul Schaefer. In the book, Paul says, oh, by the way, Paul did become our buddy, and he played on a lot of our records. So as it turned out, I actually did get to meet him after being kicked out of NBC, out of Rockefeller, Rockefeller, 30 Rockefeller.

But, um, he, he put it, I thought in a very reasonable way. And again, you know, with the interviews that were done,

not, not with me, but with others. And, uh, he said, you know, he'd seen a lot of superstar bands,

but if you didn't have that thing, there's a certain thing like, and he put it like, one time he said you know when when uh when jagger went off on his solo career it just didn't work because you know there was something about mind you i'm not even closely comparing us to the stones i'm making the point of although i have they come up later in this episode the stones uh keith richards in particular will come up later in this episode. The Stones, Keith Richards in particular, will come up later in this episode. I was afraid of that. Okay.

Well, you shouldn't put it in a book if you don't want me to bring it up. Well, I made the deal with Keith, so it had to go. It'll come soon. That's a teaser. But, you know, it didn't really, it was more a mumble campaign.

Now, for instance, conversely, Jimmy Iovine thought I should get out of the band and join Interscope Records that he was starting at the time. Well, like because of your management skills, right? Yeah, he thought I was a real hustler and he liked my management. Oh, I remember there's the book where you essentially said like drummers are a dime a dozen, but your skill set is management. Management. Interesting.

And he tells me, you know, we're going to start this label and it's going to be all about rap and i you know like an idiot said jimmy who the hell cares about rap now rap to me being an east coaster was when you're studying for exams um with a bunch of guys that you would never ever talk to but the night before you're drinking beer shooting the breeze and we call that rapid so i literally thought that's what he's talking about and chuck reed in the book, who's Jimmy's right-hand guy, tells this story how I kind of blew it by not joining Interscope Records. Now, that aside, I'm glad I didn't join Interscope Records because, to tell you the truth,

I had 16 of the greatest years playing with the Jeff Healy band, and I don't think I'd trade that for anything, good days or bad days. Hey, you had the best seat in the house. Absolutely. Once you get that seat, you don't move from that seat.. Hey, you had the best seat in the house. Absolutely. Once you get that seat, you don't move from that seat. No. All right, no more beating around the bush. Let's talk about Angel Eyes.

So let's start by hearing the Jeff Healy band's Angel Eyes. Yeah. Girl, you're looking fine tonight And every guy has got you near his side What you're doing with a clown like me Is surely one of life's little mysteries So tonight I lie The stars above How did I ever win your love?

What did I do? What did I say? To turn your angel eyes my way? Angel Eyes. So many questions. Firstly, you said it went to number five? Number five on the Billboard top 100. It was actually number one in a lot of countries,

but in America, it got to number five. It's a tremendous single. It just reeks of hit. This's a tremendous single. It just reeks of hit. This is a hit. It just sounds amazing in the headphones too, even today. It sounds amazing. Firstly, it's one of Jeff's great performances.

It goes to Jeff's roots where Jeff is also a killer country artist. This obviously is Shades of Country. This would be a hit today at Country Radio where Country Radio, where now Country Radio is really kind of where rock went to with the pedal steel.

But oddly enough, now I heard Joe recently on, I think it was CBC in the Vaults or whatnot, talking about the song. Now, with due respect to Joe, I remember the song a little differently. When we received it and I played it for the guys in L.A.,

we didn't like it. Didn't like it a lot. It was totally different than what it is now. And it was kind of that song that was always in the background. But, you know, it's Clive and Mitchell saying, this is a hit voice. They knew this would be a hit. And what I'm thinking is,

I'm not going to fight with Clive Davis. Let's at least do our best and and to jeff's credit and all of a sudden one night he's noodling around and joe gets this part right where he's noodling around on the acoustic and all of a sudden it just fell in place for him and he played it through and we're literally in the studio and i think we cut it in you know maybe within that hour wow because you know but that was a it was a hard one to get. But when we got it, it was nailed. Now, obviously, the background singers and whatnot and all that's put together

with the engineers and the production. I love the song, still do love the song. Gave us a huge crossword. But it also put us in a bit of quandary because we're thinking of ourselves blues rock a la Stevie Ray ray vaughan and now this is a little more now we're in robert craze arena and and so you know you'd have people come out to see the band to hear a bunch of angel eye songs and then next thing we're cranking out you know

see the light or whatnot so there's a little confusion i can see that yeah yeah. It's not that hard bluesy rock sound. This is, like you said, now that you say it, now I'm hearing it very country-esque. It's funny how I never really noticed that, but absolutely. It's funny, I heard it played on The Voice a few months ago, and Blake Sheldon, as soon as he heard it, he went, oh, Angel Eyes, Jeff Healy band. And that was exciting to me

because it showed Jeff's still current. And that's part of this mission. Now, so it's not your, you guys didn't write the song. No. Who wrote the song? Again, John Hyatt. Along with, and I cannot think he had a co-writer in this,

it just escapes me. But basically both this and Confidence Man were from John Hyatt. And the only thing Hyatt ever said to me was he'd built a part onto his house and that was about it. Oh, okay. So thank you.

Yeah, this was a hit. And again, I talked to a lot of Canadian successful musicians who could only dream of having a hit in the USA, right? Because that's a game changer, right? Absolutely. And this was a bona fide American hit. Yeah. Now, you're not the first.

Okay, so John Hyatt writes this, but he didn't write it for the Jeff Healy band. Not specifically, no. But I know. Confidence Man I understood to be more written for the jeff healy band now you know i'll never know that for sure but that's what i've been told through time it you know it as i say the label was hoping if they hit a hundred thousand um sales would be you know they they we'd hang around for the next record but it did a few million around the world, that album. And obviously driven by Angel Eyes.

But we also had hits with See the Light and I can't remember the other track. We had a couple hits on the rock charts as well. Beyond Confidence Man, because that was a hit too. Yeah. Now, here's what I think would be the double-edged sword of Angel Eyes is Arista saying, okay, album number two uh we need another

angel eyes yeah yeah oh my god yeah and uh and and therein therein starts i guess i don't want to say conflict but all of a sudden now this is where being your own management um starts to become a little a little tough because on one side, they're telling me, look, Tom, you know, you guys are now in the big leagues, and now it's all about Top 40 Radio. And we weren't looking for Top 40 Radio. We went in there thinking, man, if we could get on Rock Radio, you know, that's, we wanted to be where Stevie Ray was. You know, that was, he was our hero, and he was our guy. And at that point, him and Jeff had become pals and he was very supportive of us. In fact, one of the great concerts we ever did

was with him, Clapton, and our band here in Toronto at the Sky Dome. With, oddly enough, who was the rapper on it? There was a rapper on there as well. Wait, Stevie Ray Vaughan. When did he pass? 90? Poor Stevie. Vaughan. When did he pass? 90? Poor Stevie.

Alpine Valley. I remember I was working at the C&E when it happened. I think it's 90. You know what? I'm not going to pick. It's 89 to 91 because I worked those three summers and I was at the X when I learned he passed. Yeah, it's 91, 92.

We were actually with him the night it happened. Really? Yeah, it's in the book. It was probably one of the, I mean, Jeff was devastated because he just loved Stevie. And we'd actually been playing foosball with him before he got on the helicopter. And then the next day, we'd driven all night, I think, to Philly.

This unfortunately happened in Alpine Valley outside of Chicago. There's a story in the book which Jeff, or sorry, Keith had researched thoroughly. For instance, I didn't know if the helicopter guy in question really should have been flying that helicopter. And the sad thing about it is Stevie was at the top of his game. He cleaned up his drink inside of the thing. His records were doing great.

He was in love. That jam that night with him and Jeff and Clapton and Robert Cray, I mean, there was nothing I'd ever seen like that. And then, you know, the next day, the guys, excuse me, it kind of bothers me a little bit. Yeah, that's the Canuck Pale Ale there. That's all good. Well, and a wee bit of a tear.

But, you know, that was a loss. And when we went to the funeral, you know, I don't think in some ways Jeff was ever really the same. I mean, that was a huge loss, you know, I don't think in some ways Jeff was ever really the same. I mean, that, that was a huge loss, you know, because Stevie was really the guy that gave us our first shot. And he was, he was the first guy that really, you know, obviously, and I say that given full due, it was Albert Collins, Albert King who introduced Stevie to Jeff right here in Toronto at Albert's Hall, which I think now is a gambling hall or whatever.

But, uh, you know, that's where, know, that's where Jeff got that jam with Stevie. You're not, would you believe, you're not the first Canadian musician to sit in that seat and tell me about how their career was, you know, changed by Stevie Ray Vaughan. Do you want to guess another Canadian blues rock star? Colin James? Correct.

And I think there's another guy too as well, but absolutely Colin. Yeah. Who, by the way, we were very good friends with Colin. I mean, it was a friendly rivalry. We were breaking at the same time, him and Jeff.

In fact, Jeff couldn't make a gig one night and Colin came in and was our lead guy for the night. So it was really cool. And we'd run into Colin, you know, here and there across the country. And to this day, pound for pound, I think Colin's one of the greats. Glad to hear it because, yeah, he also was a protege, I suppose you'd say, of Stevie Ray Vaughan. 100%. Yeah. You know, I think we got a little luckier in the big picture, but Stevie loved him. Man, yeah, terrible loss there.

But let me pick up a couple of things. And before we get to Hell to Pay, so just before we get there, one thing in the book which I found very amusing, and it might be the most fun fact in the book that I've never considered before, and I'll try to treat this topic delicately, but Jeff had like a type of woman he preferred, okay?

Oh, God. We won't go into that. I so wish I never wrote that. Okay. Well, you have to. That is a detail that will be remembered. Okay. Yeah.

I mean, again, Keith sort of came to me one day, and he said, you know, I noticed that Jeff seemed to like, you know. Voluptuous? Yes. Heavy at? Curvy? Curvy. And at one point, you know, I had mentioned to Jeff, we were thinking of going down to Jamaica,

which has been a hang of mine since I was a kid. And I jokingly said, well, you know, Jeff, you know, a lot of the Jamaican guys like the same kind of girls you like. And the joke was we never went to Jamaica. But that wasn't meant to be quite how it came out in the book. But you know what? It is what it is. But here's the part that's interesting.

When you think about it, so you and I are both fully sighted people. Yeah. Okay, so we can't really. Well, with these glasses, it's getting that way. But yes, more or less. At least you have memories. This is in the book, but a pretty face was wasted

on Jeff Healy, but Jeff Healy saw with his hands. And the curves and voluptuous woman, that would be a preference for somebody who saw with their hands. It makes sense to me. I don't want to go there, and I'll tell you why. Because Jeff wouldn't go there.

Meaning, I had those conversations with Jeff, and what Jeff really appreciated was intelligence. And if you really, really want to be in Jeff's good side, male or female, was if you understood the music he loved, which essentially was big band blues. That's where Jeff's heart was at. You know, that was it. He was there.

Now, the joking amongst the roadies I learned later was, you know, good thing Jeff likes those kind of girls because, you know, Tom and Joe would never have got those tall, skinny models. Oh, God. That shouldn't have came. You know what? No more beer. Cut me off. No more beer. Cut me off.

No more beer. You're done. Here, let me change the channel for you here and just ask you about, at this time, like when See the Light is breaking, Jeff has a radio show on CIUT. Yes.

Was it Sugarfoot Stomp? That's his radio show? He had two. Because he plays 78s, his own collection? He had a vast collection of like 78s, his own collection? He had a vast collection of 78s, right? Incredible collection. And the thing with Jeff's collection was, I'm not sure this went in the book,

but him and Armin Erdogan in Clapton got into a discussion one day. And we were cutting a track called Making Georgia Blue, which we'd basically finished in Canada in our own studio. But we were in L.A. at the Complex, I believe, and I'm laying down the drums, which was with brushes, which was a challenge because, you know,

all I knew about a brush was how you comb your hair. I never really played with them. And I don't know this, but Mr. Erdogan and Clapton are in the studio while I'm laying this down. And Jeff's walking me through it, and he goes, great take, first take. That was great. Come in. I go in, and there's Clapton and Mr. Erdogan,

which thank God I didn't know they were there because I would have had two heart attacks instead of one. But what they're discussing is, I can't remember the track, but whether this particular track was on Decca or Bluebird from the 78 era. And the next day, Jeff gets me out of bed, I don't know, 7 in the morning. And the next thing I know, we're up by Ventura in some barn. And Jeff finds this 78 to make his case and point and sends it over to Mr. Erdogan. So he really knew his stuff.

For sure. But I always wonder, like, is there Braille on these covers? Nope. But I'm telling you, man, that guy knew, like, he could tell by the grooves on the record, but also the grooves on the neck. Wow. And you could go, I mean, I can't remember in researching the book how many journalists referred to the fact that when they'd be in Jeff's house or apartment at the time,

how Jeff would just go find a record and touch that groove and know exactly what the record was. That's amazing. I guess, but they say if you lose one sense, other senses become more optimized or whatever, I guess. Well, since we're on the subject, let's keep going. Jeff hated that. Now, I'll tell you why. In Europe, particularly, journalists will say, well, the reason you play the guitar so good is because you're blind,

so therefore you hear better and this and that. And he, like, man, when Jeff was angry, he would curl his hair and he'd bite his lip, and he'd be like, I can tell you it was ticked. And after one day, I said, man, these last few interviews, you've been kind of a little surly with these guys, and we're trying to break a record over here. What's bugging you?

He goes, man, you come to the blind school, half these guys couldn't carry a note, let alone play a guitar. It is kind of discrediting his genius, his gift. I can see that. I think so, absolutely, yeah. Let's talk about Hell to Pay. So Hell to Pay, this is the follow-up to See the Light, which, of course, went platinum in the US, which is amazing.

And it sold 100,000 copies here in Canada too. Yes. We should point that out too. And I know I bought one. Talk to me about... First, you never name an album Hell to Pay. Is that because in the southern US, they'll see it as blasphemous?

No, because there was Hell to Pay getting that record done. I mean, to be candid. Yeah. No, because there was Hal DePay getting that record done. I mean to be candid. Yeah. No, be candid. You shouldn't give me this beer. Let me start. I'm just going to play a little Jeff Healy while we talk about it. Can you name that tune?

It's Mark Knopfler's track. Mark Knopfler from Dire Straits. I think I love you too much. Can you name that tune? It's Mark Knopfler's track. Mark Knopfler from Dire Straits. I think I love you too much. Tell me about working with Mark. I mean, that's pretty cool. Mark Knopfler from Dire Straits. We had met Mark a couple times,

but we'd never actually played with him. And he had literally written this track for us, which was, you know, are you kidding me? It's Dire Straits. They're probably the biggest band in the world they're all over mtv uh in the book though what you'll see is inadvertently we kind of upset upset the team uh his his staff his management and i guess indirectly uh mark himself yeah he was angry like you pissed off mark knopfler after doing his song i don't know if we pissed him off

but we certainly his manager was a lovely fellow also a drummer played in the Nottingham Hillbillies with Mark great guy

we got along for years but after being polite to me I kept trying to figure out we'd flown to England and you know why isn't Mark coming to we're supposed

he's going to be in our video which is huge and the label had spent hundreds of we're supposed to, he's going to be in our video, which is huge, and the label had spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to get us over there, and to the point where we even offered to get a helicopter to pick him up, and basically the manager said to me,

you know, in the end, Tom, maybe you should have thought about that, you guys are a bunch of, I won't get into the words you call this, but you might have thought about that before you turned down Mark's parts on your record. And after three days of quite back-and-forth negotiation, he finally just put it in our face that it's not going to happen,

which, of course, was not well received at the label. And to Jeff's credit, I don't think Jeff did anything necessarily wrong. I think Jeff felt that that's what suited the song for the Jeff Healy band, of which he was Jeff Healy of the Jeff Healy band. And what I tried to explain to the management at the time was, look, there was no offense meant here, but candidly, in hindsight, probably wasn't one of our smarter moves.

No, but hindsight's 20-20. Always, always. Yeah. Now, there's a couple of our smarter moves. No, but hindsight's 2020. Always. Yeah. Now, there's a couple of other rock legends. By the way, it still sounds great, and I can hear his parts. So that's Mark Knopfler. Now, there's a couple of other

rock legends that we're going to dive into now. I think you know which two I'm talking about, but one in particular that I'll bring down, I think I love you too too much because I'm going to let Brian Gerstein ask you about this other rock legend who has a song on hell to pay. So this is Brian Gerstein. He's a real estate sales representative, a real estate sales representative with PSR brokerage.

And he's got a question for you, Tom. Hi, Tom. Brian Gerstein here, sales representative with PSR Brokerage and proud sponsor of Toronto Mike. Phase one of the Galleria Mall redevelopment plan and its condos are being sold exclusively by PSR. Contact me now by phone or text at 416-873-0292 to put you on my VIP first access list. We are targeting late spring to sell them

with a 2023 completion date. They'll be both investor-friendly priced and also ideal for end users. Tom, when I kicked out my jams with Mike, one of my top 10 songs was While My Guitar Gently Weeps. Just listening now to Jeff's version in 97 at the Montreux Switzerland Jazz Festival, and I'm blown away by his version. I read that George gave his full support to it and offered any help.

Plus, he contributed to your Hell to Pay album. Any interactions between Jeff, the band, and George would be appreciated, as George is my favorite Beatle. It's a great story. And a good question. I had asked the label if they could get to George Harrison to be on the record, because we'd been playing that song and we'd decided we'd love that to be a single. because we'd been playing that song,

and we'd decided we'd love that to be a single. And the joke then became, we were recording in Warren Heights, just outside Montreal. And Jeff was a very good mimic, and every once in a while he'd phone me at the band house and go, Tom, George. And it was a joke. Well, the second last day we were recording,

the phone rings, and it's George Harrison. And I literally hung up thinking it was Jeff. Of course. Then he phones back. And he was such a sweet, wonderful man. And he said, can't come up to play, but I'll be flying through L.A. And I'll be going in the studio with Jeff Lynn. Would you mind also if Jeff played on it?

Are you kidding me? Jeff Lynn and George Harrison? I'm like, hell yeah. And that's basically what happened. And after he heard the track he sent a beautiful letter to Jeff with his phone number saying, you know, if you're ever in London

please look me up. I'm a huge fan of you and you're one of the greatest guitar players I've ever heard. And to me and to all of us Jeff wasn't as awed by stars, I think I was a little bit more

star struck because I really grew up on the Beatles and the Stones and those were things I just loved so I couldn't even believe Well it doesn't get any bigger than Beatles and the Stones right? Not for me, but you gotta understand Jeff wasn't that amazed by them because to him it was

B.B. King and Albert Collins and so now, now, that all being said that amazed by them because you know it was to him i was baby king and and and abba collins and uh and uh so now now that all being said some of the negative things that jeff may have thought about for instance even in the stones cases years later he said to me he finally got it he goes you know i get what you're saying because i'd always say to jeff look man i don't know if jagger's the best singer in the world or keith ridger's the best singer in the world or Keith Richards is the best guitar player, but goddamn, they wrote Satisfaction. I mean, that's a rock and roll track. That's right. So obviously, George liked your cover of...

Loved it. Let's hear a little bit of it. It's eerie to hear their two voices together. That's George. You were the world to me Is it true, though, that Jeff mixed the George Harrison part down so low you could barely hear it, and then you brought it back up? No, no. Well, yes and no. It wasn't that.

Again, Jeff was the leader of the Jeff Healy band, and he did what he felt was right for the Jeff Healy band. Now, we had been told by the label that, man, where's George Harrison and all this? So, you know, Jeff, to his credit, he conceded that and brought him back up in the mix. There's a remix on a thing I did back in 89 that a guy did on Arbor Records.

And that remix has a lot more of George in it. And it's a very incredible mix. I think it's on Legends or Tribute. But nevertheless, it's just an incredible track with George Harrison. As a Canadian, I don't know if it gets better. Now let me know. it's just an incredible track and with George Harrison. I mean, you know, as a Canadian, I don't know if it gets better now, let me know.

No, and I mean, is there any, I mean, it's one thing to cover a Doors, a bluesy Doors song. Of course, we all know Roadhouse Blues. That's one thing,

but it's another thing completely to kind of take on a Beatles track. But the thing is that you guys killed with it. Like, this is a song everybody knows and loves already.

And you put your own Jeff Healy band spin on it. And like I said, I'm listening to these headphones right now. Kicking ass. Well, you know, it's interesting because, again, in doing the research, a lot of the reviewers would literally get a cover-to-cover record. And at that point, candidly,

we're a little bankrupt in terms of fresh material. So know that's the go-to but for instance uh still uh stuck in the middle um got excellent reviews to the point that people were saying man that's even maybe even better than the original so taking on a a any classic cover is always tough but again this goes back to the brilliance of Jeff. He was a mimic too in his own way. He could really capture the essence of the track and then turn it into his style. And

heck, one of my favorite songs is the Creedence Crowrattle thing, Jungle, on cover to cover. There's a lot of great tracks on that record. Bingo. Bingo. It's my favorite song on cover. It's my favorite of great tracks on that record. Bingo. Bingo. It's my favorite song on cover.

It's my favorite song on that album. I think it's brilliant. I'm with you. It's the only song, in fact, I loaded into the soundboard here from this album. Man, you did your research, sir. You're not done.

Would you like a beer? Yes, actually, but I have too many things to do here. I can't get hammered. But, well, you know, I know we're skipping steps here, but why don't you just touch on, so talk about Run Through the Jungle, since I'm playing it here and you brought it up.

Well, we were probably inundated with, you know, a hundred cover songs. Oh, yes. Oh, man. It's got that grimy, dirty... Already he owns it. Right there, just in that vocal, he immediately owns it. I mean, not to take its credence, but he owns the track. And is it fair to say that this covers album,

because you guys, you don't have to write the songs on a covers album. It really was because of maybe some creative bankruptcy that you were experiencing at the time? Yeah, I think there's a pressure on, where's the next album? But originally it was going to be called Undercover, and then it ended up being Cover 2 Cover. But we'd never really played this track, and it was just a natural. Again, Jeff got that swampy vibe to it

like the second we went in our studio. And the guitar solo was killer. And again, I mean, the versatility of Jeff's vocal, I mean, is a prime example. I mean, he's just nailing something that he probably didn't do every day. And yet here it is, you know, just killer. Now's a good time. Oh, sorry, go ahead. Well, it's funny,

but I hadn't listened to our band in years, to be very honest. And this is one of the first records I pulled out. Sort of worked my way back into it. It's a great record, if I may say. I mean, everything Jeff could do and did and was amazed at, it's all there. And for that matter,

actually, the band really steps up as well. So it's a there. And for that matter, actually, the man really steps up as well. So it's a good record. Now to bring us back to where we were. So I have to, While My Guitar Gently Weeps of George Harrison. That was a great story, but there's another, well, I mean, that was a good story. He wrote you a lovely note. He loved what you did, but you pissed off a member of the Rolling Stones. Can you tell me about Jeff versus Keith? Well, again, I wasn't too aware of that until, who is it? I think it's Big Ben in the book. When Keith does the interview, apparently Charlie Watts, maybe having a little fun at everyone's expense.

But what had happened was we had gone on stage and played. We'd open for them at the government. And if things worked out in our favor, apparently there was going to be a bunch of dates. Some in the States, some in Europe. Like you were going to, the Jeff Healy band would open for the Rolling Stones. Yeah. Amazing. Yeah, we opened for them at the government here.

And by the way, when we opened for them at the government, it was home run. Like our hometown crowd crowd they went crazy um i looked up and saw mick jagger jammed in behind the speaker uh one of the few times i dropped the drumstick uh but when when we came off states they went on immediately brought jeff up and he sat in with them and the major promoter at the time came to me goes it's a it's a lock you guys basically you know you're going to have some dates out of this and they love you guys we had already played with keith over the years and ronnie wood in different events and whatnot so keith and jeff had talked several times what happens is apparently again uh i can't attest to this i wasn't there but i do know the the aftermath which we were told not to come to the after party, so I suspect a few things happened in between,

which was Jeff had made his way to Keith's dressing room. And again, there's no negativity here except that Keith, unfortunately, was half-dressed. So Jeff is trying to drag Keith off to Grossman's Tavern to go see how guitar players play guitar kind of thing. And I don't think that went over so well. I pulled a line from the book. The line was, this is from Jeff Healy,

we're going to go jamming at Grossman's and I'll show you how to play some real guitar. And then the insinuation is that Keith Richards was insulted because well I guess Jeff insulted Keith Richards guitar playing and that yeah you got booted from the tour and the after party so that's how

now when I read that I want to be clear here I can't imagine Jeff telling Keith I'm going to show you how to play guitar now again it's third party. I suspect what he was talking about is to see some great guitar playing. Now, in honesty, did Jeff think Keith Richards was probably the greatest guitar player in the world? As I said earlier, in the early days, he was not a Stones fan.

Later in life, particularly after we lost the tour and whatnot, he really actually became a fan of the Stones because all of a sudden he got it. And which is interesting because Jeff normally got all music, good or bad. But there were certain bands that he just didn't understand, you know, why they were out there. He just didn't get it. Yeah.

And to his credit, he was a perfectionist. So, you know, Jeff to him, to Jeff, you know, a great vocalist was a great vocalist. Keith Jagger, in his mind, wouldn't necessarily be on that register. But it's funny how several years later, and not right after the event, but a few years after, out of nowhere, we're having a couple of cocktails one day, and he starts talking about the Stones. Stones. And we got into this kind of metaphysical, why there's greatness and why there isn't greatness. And that conversation went into black music and it meandered all over the place. But to his credit, he said, you know, I get how great the Stones really are, as he got Bob Dylan, which he didn't originally get. Although we covered the hell out of all the great Bob Dylan songs. Another thing to Jeff's credit is he was the first to catch on to hip-hop. You know, when I heard hip-hop, I thought, well, I don't know what that's about. He knew right away that that was going to be a huge music.

And he said, Tom, think it through. It's really a reflection of the black urban community, whether it be jail-based or, and he likened it to blues although blues originally came from the fields you know it migrated through uh chicago and new york and in the northern cities and it it was protest and it was you know heartache and it was talking about the situation of that community in that environment in america and at that time. And he nailed that day one. And that took me a lot longer to, well, I mean, how dumb could I be?

I'm telling Jimmy Iovine, you know, who cares about rap? Right. You're like, oh, this Tupac Shakur is going to be nobody. Well, no, Tupac I got. Tupac and Biggie were incredible. Now, I'm going to play, this is a song written by Tom Petty

that you guys recorded I noticed a theme though a lot of songs recorded by the Jeff Healy band have to do with

eyes or sight this is called I'll leave the light on does this leave the light on or lost in your eyes in your eyes sorry that's okay it's been a while a good video as well um i was hypnotized we'll play a little bit like this what happened was that hold on that's on um on uh It's the one before Cover to Cover. Is it... Oh, it's...

Feel This? Yeah. Great track. You know, if I may say, I think what happens with our label at the time is I think Jeff's music was actually, there's some hits, hit after hit on the next couple albums. What's happening though is you have grunge coming in

and hip hop coming in, and I think people aren't paying attention to the quality of the music. Now, it's not like we're all of a sudden going to turn around and become a grunge band or start doing hip-hop and that's kind of sad but it's also you know that's that's the nature of the business this is a great track there's another one by Diane Warren called I tried which was a stone-cold smash, but never saw the light of day. In fact, I ran into Diane recently, and to this day, that's one of our favorite tracks.

I think she's got a record for most Oscar nominations without winning or something like that. Yep, she just won now with the song for... Well, she got nominated. Yeah, she got nominated. She didn't win for this. No, because Lady Gaga won with Mark Ronson and all that.

But that's not Diane Warren, though. You're right. But she's nominated a lot and she hasn't yet won that one. And in terms of top five, I think she's in the top three of all time. I mean, yeah.

I mean, even Aerosmith recorded a big... had a big hit with a Diane Warren song. But I want to ask you, have you ever heard the Tom Petty version of Lost in Your Eyes? No. You want to hear it? Hell yeah.

Let's do this. So that's a great jam right there, Lost in Your Eyes by the Jeff Healy Band. Now hold on. Tom had recorded this. Never released, but he recorded it. Man, you're digging in. Okay, let's hear this. piano plays softly Light from a window

Gold and black Sound from a window Golden and black Sound from a dream I was hypnotized I was paralyzed I can hardly speak Baby I got all this big Baby Baby You never realized I could have stood there

Lost in your eyes Stood there waiting and not realized Love isn't easy and isn't always kind But I could have stood there Lost in your eyes So he recorded that in 1974. 74. 74. What do you think? Love it.

Ben Montant, the keyboard, you know, we didn't have a keyboard player, but that's wicked. Now, 74. You know, it's interesting, in terms of the mechanics of how we laid it down. It's pretty much the same structure.

And again, didn't know this. So what are you... I'm actually thinking, what the heck did they send us? Yeah, I was going to say, did you just get sheet music? No, they were like rough demos, but it certainly wasn't... But this was an outtake, so this was never released. It should have been. Brilliant.

It's just seen the light of day. Recently, of course, there's been, as you can imagine, the appetite for Tom Petty rarities has soared with his passing. Very sad. Very sad. Again, one of the greats. I mean, we were blessed with the folks that were willing to help us out. I have a question from Basement Dweller. That's how he signs his comments on the open mics on torontomic.com.

Basement Dweller says he's been wondering about this for over 25 years. So no pressure, Tom, but this is a 25-year question Basement Dweller's had. Whose idea was it to include that rap from Junior John on the Feel This track, If You Can't Feel Anything Else? And was there a lot of blowback at the time from their core audience? Got our asses kicked, and probably my idea. So I'll have to take that one on the chin. You're taking one for the team here.

Well, you know, in fairness, I have to, because I think that was the play where you're trying to be relevant. And Jeff kind of actually got it. There wasn't a lot of blowback. But in hindsight, probably one of my dumber. Okay, here, in your defense, Tom. Dumber ideas at the time. Do you remember the Rush song, Roll the Bones?

Yeah. First, I still like Roll the Bones. Yeah. In the middle of Roll the Bones, there the Bones. Yeah. First, I still like Roll the Bones. Yeah. In the middle of Roll the Bones, there's a rap. Yeah. In fact, in the video, it's like the skeleton or whatever. And I always felt like, okay, maybe this is a sign that, you know, rap isn't cool anymore or whatever, that Rush is doing it or whatever.

But I don't know. I think Rush can do it. Jeff Healy Band can do. But I don't know. I think Rush can do it. Jeff Healy Band can do it. I don't know. But you're also kind of reaching not to be relevant. You're reaching, but it's not even being relevant. You're also trying to kind of give a nod to that this is a, like this kid was great, and we respected him.

So it's kind of like giving a nod to the kid at the same time. But it really didn't belong in our repertoire in hindsight. On the other hand, I like what you say, because I'll give a C for effort. Now, oddly, while we're on Rush, which just happened recently, I see that John Mayles just came out with a new track, and he covered our track called Evil and Here to Stay. And why that just gobsmacked me was Evil and Here to Stay is one of my favorite blues tracks

that we ever did as a band. In fact, we cut that with Paul Schaefer, and it was pretty much live off the floor. Now I see he's covered that, and who's playing lead on that is Alex from Rush. Wow, there you go. What a great tribute to Jeff and the band. I'm going to ask you, just before we

talk about the end of the Jeff Healy band and then, of course, sadly, Jeff's passing, there's an artist, a great artist that had a number one hit in the States, I believe, Amanda Marshall. Tell me about what does the Jeff Healy band have to do with Amanda Marshall? I don't think people know that story.

Yes. Jeff had actually met Amanda Marshall a couple times, I believe at our shows, and had invited her down, I believe, for a jam at Grossman's. She had come down with her dad, Doug. And Jeff was just really, really impressed with Amanda, and had brought it to my attention, saying, look, you know, we have this label.

Here's our next artist. We'd been working with a couple artists at the time, I believe the Phantoms being one of them. And, you know, clearly we're caught up in our own career. We're pretty busy, and I believe we were on the Letterman show. We were just about to go on Letterman, and, you know, we're about to play in front of 20 million people, and Jeff out of nowhere, we're waiting to go on, says,

by the way, you know, have you gone out to see Amanda yet? I'm like, well, geez, Jeff, I'm a little busy here right now. But he just loved her, and the consequence of that is we ended up managing her. And, you know, she went on to do big things. Well, she did big things, including one really big thing here, which... Birmingham.

Birmingham. Yeah. Which I think went to number one. Does that sound about right? I don't think we hit number one, but it was definitely a hit. I don't believe it was one, to number one. Does that sound about right? I don't think we hit number one, but it was definitely a hit. I don't believe it was one to be candid. I think she had in Canada,

I think she was one of the first artists, every single she put out went top ten. Oh. Get a little taste here. Great singer. Friday night he pulled a gun to change the channel Get a little taste here. Great singer. Seems the dream she had of all turned black and blue. She's wasted. Birmingham, Amanda Marshall now at the end of

this is all in the book of course but there's a lot of great stuff in the book we haven't covered people should buy this book and just read this book it's really cool but it sounds like to me by the end of the Jeff Healy band's run that Jeff doesn't seem to give a fuck anymore.

Am I being too crass there? He just doesn't seem to have... I mean, there's even parts where he sells you the song. Yeah, the catalog. The catalog? He doesn't sell it. Well, carry on.

No, I want to hear from you. No one wants to hear my voice right now, that's for sure. Well, carry on. Sorry, I don't want to hear from you. No one wants to hear my voice right now, that's for sure. No, please. I think, and what's interesting for me right now is, in writing the book recently, I've heard from some of Jeff's close friends and peers, candidly folks who weren't fans of mine. They tended to be, I guess, two camps, candidly, folks who weren't fans of mine.

There tended to be, I guess, two camps and pro-band and maybe not so pro-Tom. What was telling to me in these conversations, which I've had a few, several actually, is that what I didn't realize is Jeff was getting really burnt. You know, we were drinking, we were, you know, putting in crazy hours. And toward the end, probably going back actually even to like the late 90s, he was pretty much

done with the thing. You know, it was over. His heart was, he wants to go out and do his big band thing. He wants to be playing some trumpet. And not that Jeff never was into his career, because he always was. But Jeff was not a guy who was impressed by stardom. In fact, one of the interviews that really struck me was where he's talking about, you know, here it is called the Jeff Healy Band. And yet I really couldn't care that much about, you know, who we're hanging out with or what stars we're with. And Jeff and, or pardon me, Tom and Joe want to be the rock stars. And, you know, in fairness to Jeff, that probably was very true. I mean, I think we had a lot more drive in let's make it and break it and get there.

In the early days, don't get me wrong, Jeff definitely wanted to be in that. But I think toward the end, I would not go as far to say it was a fuck it, but it was certainly he'd had enough and he wanted to get on with his life. Now, the good news in talking to some of these folks recently is my understanding is he did get on with his life and accomplished a lot of the things he really wanted to do and, you know, good on him. He, I mean, I had forgotten how, like I knew he was very young when he passed, of course. It wasn't that long ago. When did Jeff pass away?

A couple of days ago, Saturday but uh second march uh 11 years ago 11 years ago uh but he was 41 years old like he he crammed a lifetime into a short span 41 years old i i again at the risk of maybe you know having a little pull back here but i i believe death jeff knew his destiny was not going to be a long run. We had a track called One Foot in the Gravel, One Foot in the Grave. And I remember talking to him at the time about that track. And Jeff didn't think he was going the distance, per se. And it wasn't until I kind of ran into some of my own issues recently that, you know, I ran into people who dealt with Jeff, you know, with that horrible disease he was dealing with in the end. And here's the remarkable thing.

Jeff was loved by these people, the medical professionals and whatnot. And more importantly, you know, he kept his humor. I mean, Jeff was, you know, I don't care what anyone says. I was there and anyone that doesn't like this, you know, maybe I had a beer, but piss off because the reality is I was there day one. And I know what I know, humor was the core of Jeff. And if you weren't on your feet, man, you got chopped pretty quick. He, you know, he was a gangster and he liked to shake it up, and he liked to mix it up, and he could be a bit of a shit disturber.

I mean, he was a band leader, and he had a brilliance about him that I've not met before or since. Now, look, all the time you hear, this artist was a genius. Jeff was a genius, and certainly I'll talk to anyone and make this argument or point, no one played a guitar like Jeff Fuley. And by the way, let's not forget his voice. I mean, look at all those stylings that we've just gone through. The man had an incredible voice, and more importantly, he could adapt that. It was cancer that took his sight when he was less than two years old.

And it was cancer that eventually took his life. And you alluded to that a moment ago, you alluded to it, but how are you doing? In the book I read, of course, you had your own bout with cancer. How are you feeling? I'm doing great. And the only reason I went in the book, again, Keith being Keith, what happened was people had heard about it,

and all of a sudden you're on death's door when you're not. And so that was really more to put that in there to, to rather than have other people form the narrative. But it also was a real eye opener for me. And by the way, I'm not even slightly suggesting I had to deal with what Jeff had to deal with, but what you do realize it's a very ugly disease. And, um, and, uh, you know, I, I think having gone through it and still dealing with it, you realize, um, I don't want to say you realize what Jeff was dealing with, but you certainly have a different outlook looking back at things. And, uh, and to Jeff's credit, um, as I say, cancer or no cancer, he's one of the bravest guys I ever knew. What was your relationship like with Jeff at the end?

We didn't really have a relationship at the end, but I will say this. Again, Jeff phoned me a few times. And, you know, in writing the book, I'm at peace with the fact that me and Jeff made our peace. Now there are others who would debate that, and again, everyone's entitled to an opinion. Candidly, part of the reason I wrote the book was I was getting tired of everyone else's opinion at three levels, forgetting Tom, Stephen, but the band's legacy was being kind of remanufactured,

for lack of a better terminology. And that was wrong. And the music was getting lost, and some of the music in the curation was being misrepresented. And here's the most important part. Conversations that I would have about great guitarists, whether I was in the States or Canada or Europe or wherever, you know, Jeff's name would always come up. And I started seeing in the last few years, Jeff's name was getting lost.

And that was just unacceptable. You have this, you know, first off, we were proud Canadians, regardless of our history of having to go to the States or whatever. Canadian flags were on all our gear. We used Canadian gear wherever we could. And anyone had asked us, we're not american we're canadian and we were proud of that fact and here's this canadian icon all of a sudden getting lost to history and i just wasn't prepared to to stand by and let that happen now it can be argued sure i'm

a founding member and i have a bit of ego in this but what what cannot be argued is the greatness of jeff healy there's been no one like him before no one like him since and uh when I heard Tom Cochran doing a private show and I was actually thinking of not putting the book out I was getting cold feet and uh Tom out of nowhere at a private show in Halifax maybe 100 people starts talking about Jeff Healy and tells these great stories Gary Scrutt and his roadie at the session. And when I look around, I see Gary, and I'm like, ah. But Tom doesn't know I'm out there.

And he ends it by saying, why the fuck isn't Jeff Healy in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame? And that was the closer for me. As soon as I heard that, I was like, this book actually. And we went out and hung out after. And, you know, Tom gave us our first national tour. He gave Amanda Marshall our first national tour. He gave Amanda Marshall her first national tour. I have a lot of time for, I think he's one of the greatest rockers to come out of Canada. And when Tom said that, that was good enough for me. As you could hear, I thoroughly

enjoyed my conversation with Tom Stephen. My sincere condolences to his family, his friends, and everybody who ever loved him. Tom Stephen will be missed. I want to take a streetcar downtown Read Andrew Miller and wander around And drink some Guinness from a tin Cause my UI check has just come in

Ah, where you been? Because everything is kind of rosy and gray Yeah, the wind is cold, but the snow, snow Warms me today And your smile is fine, and it's just like mine And it won't go away Because everything is rosy and gray Well, you've been under my skin for more than eight years

It's been eight years of laughter and eight years of tears And I don't know what the future can hold or do For me and you But I'm a much better man for having known you. Oh, you know that's true because everything is coming up rosy and gray. Yeah, the wind is cold, but the smell of snow won't stay today.

And your smile is fine, and it's just like mine And it won't go away Cause everything is rosy and green Well, I've been told that there's a sucker born every day But I wonder who Yeah, I wonder who, yeah I wonder who Maybe the one who doesn't realize there's a thousand shades of grey Cause I know that's true, yes I do I know it's true, yeah

I know it's true How about you? All them picking up trash and then putting down ropes And they're brokerage stocks, the class struggle explodes And I'll play this guitar just the best that I can Maybe I'm not and maybe I am But who gives a damn? Because everything is coming up

Rosy and gray Yeah, the wind is cold But the smell of snow Warms me today And your smile is fine And it's just like mine And it won't go away Cause everything is rosy and gray

Well, I've kissed you in France and I've kissed you in Spain And I've kissed you in places I better not name And I've seen the sun go down on Shakhtar Khor But I like it much better going down on you Yeah, you know that's true Because everything is coming up Rosy and green Yeah, the wind is cold

But the smell of snow warms us today. And your smile is fine, and it's just like mine, and it won't go away. Because everything is rosy now. Everything is rosy, yeah. Everything is rosy and gray. Rose in grey