Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Richard Griffin: Toronto Mike'd #1187

Episode Date: January 13, 2023

In this 1187th episode of Toronto Mike'd, Mike chats with Richard Griffin about growing up in Jamaica, working for the Montreal Expos, moving to Toronto and working for the Toronto Star, his time with the Toronto Blue Jays and why he retired. Mark Hebscher co-hosts! Toronto Mike'd is proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, Canna Cabana, Ridley Funeral Home and Electronic Products Recycling Association.

Welcome to episode 1187 of Toronto Mic'd. Proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery. A fiercely independent craft brewery who believes in supporting communities, good times and brewing amazing beer. Order online for free local home delivery in the GTA. for free local home delivery in the GTA. Palma Pasta. Enjoy the taste of fresh, homemade Italian pasta and entrees from Palma Pasta in Mississauga and Oakville.

Electronic Products Recycling Association. Committing to our planet's future means properly recycling our electronics of the past. Ridley Funeral Home. Pillars of the community since 1921. Canna Cabana. The lowest prices on cannabis. Guaranteed.

Learn more at cannacabana.com. And Sammy Cone Real Estate. Ask Sammy any real estate questions at sammy.cone at properlyhomes.ca. Joining me today, making his Toronto Mike debut, is Richard Griffin. Welcome, Richard. Hey, Mike. That's quite an eclectic group of sponsors you've got there. I love it.

Where do we begin? The weed? The beer? Where does it all start for us? The funeral home. The funeral home. We're getting there. We're getting there. We're getting there.

There's another voice in the room. I can't wait to let the world know that there is a very special co-host for this episode. So Richard Griffin making his Toronto Mike debut. And beside him in the TMDS studio, a man who is not making his Toronto Mike debut, Mark Hebbshire, everybody. Thank you.

Thank you very much. And Hebbsy, we just recorded a great episode of Hebbsy on Sports. I thought it was pretty good, too. We left some stuff open, though. We left some topics up for further discussion because of the timing of this, right? Because you released this show right after we recorded, which is like an hour after we just did Hebbsy on Sports.

This will probably be in feeds by 1 p.m. today, which is Friday the 13th, by the way. Happy Friday the 13th. Richard, how do you know Hebsey? I mean, I know Hebsey. Everyone knows Hebsey. But when did you first meet Hebsey? Give me the Hebsey-Griff origin story.

Well, I was PR in Montreal, obviously. That's part of my story. But Hebsey worked for an FM station, and we did not look on FM. We looked at FM stations like people look at bloggers right now and podcasters. And podcasters, right. But, yeah, so he, every year after year, would apply for a season credential, and I would battle within the Expos organization and say, you know, the future is FM radio.

How right was I or how wrong was I? I don't know. But who are the executive? Who are we talking about? Are these names that people would know? Perhaps. What? Come on.

You can wrap them up. Seriously, like, who are the resistors? Because I'm going through, I mean, I know it's like, you know, I don't know if we're going to go to Expos games. Why would I take this job in Montreal if I couldn't cover the Expos? Yeah, I think Bob Dunn was the moving force behind us getting it done. And once it did get done, I was proven right. And, you know, FM radio.

Of course, in Hawaii in the 82 winter meetings, I gave a lecture to the PR people about the magic of the fax machine. So, I mean, we've come a long way in technology, and that's one of my downfalls. Yeah, so when I went to Montreal, I was working in Toronto in radio, and I had done some Blue Jays games in 79 and was part of their broadcasts. Right. Until I got fired by the drunken,

my boss at the time, who was like, you know, hired on the cheap and they didn't realize that he was an alcoholic, a womanizer, didn't know anything about news or anything like that

and had personal grudges against people and was an anti-Semite. But besides that, he was a good guy. And so I ended up in Montreal and working for FM 96, which was like CKFM was in Toronto, 99.9, right? And like Rich said, there's FM.

You guys aren't like real journalists or anything like that. And so we had gone through the same thing trying to get Montreal Canadiens credentials. Like we could get them on a per-game basis only. You're not getting a full season credential. You know, who are you, Red Fisher? That kind of thing. And so it was really refreshing, first of all,

to find someone who spoke English and was responsible only for the English-speaking media. Right? Monique Giroux was responsible for the French-speaking media. So this was beautiful because Rich only had so many people that he, you know were in the sort of that circle of here you need to know well i think there was an overlap i think we were responsible for both but in terms of dealing yeah with individuals and front office people at the

at the stations or at the newspapers it was monique with the french and right but it was like group decisions and at all but you you had... And we just didn't like you at the time. Okay. They had good taste. Now listen, so Richard Griffin finally making

his Toronto Mike debut. This is personally a thrill for me, Richard. I'm glad you're here. You are getting, and you too, Hebsey, because you made the trek too

and I appreciate that you're here as well. You're each getting a large meat lasagna from Palma Pasta. It's frozen. You're going to take it home with you and enjoy that. Perfect. That's tonight's dinner. That's tonight's dinner for Ed Z. I already put it on the menu.

What time should we be there? It's delicious. Griff, you're going to love it. We'll have enough for you for sure, Mike. You can drop by. Lots of leftovers. And when I think about the Richard Griffin story, which we're going to cover over the next several hours, Richard, get comfortable. Just kidding, kind of. But there's like these three parts. Like, yeah, there's an Expos part. Then there's a Toronto Star part. And then there's a Toronto

Blue Jays part. And this story might begin in Kingston. But I thought maybe right off the top, you can answer the one question everybody's wondering. Let me look in the eyes there. Okay. Did you choose to retire from your job with the Toronto Blue Jays? Not really. I mean, when they brought in Andrea Goldstein, who does a great job, and I love her because she loves baseball. When they brought her in directly from Rogers' front office, I sort of was looking for a different type of role. I knew there was going to be a different type of role.

And we really didn't agree on what that should be. I was looking for a different type of role. I knew there was going to be a different type of role. And we really didn't agree on what that should be. And so I'm not retired. I just stepped aside and I'm going to try and figure out how to get a podcast. Well, Hebsey needs to go home. Hang on a second. I have to follow up. Yeah, of course. Tell us now, Rich.

So Andrea, who did she replace or what is her position within the ball club vis-a-vis Rogers? How does that work? Well, I don't want to dig too deep on this, but when I got hired in 2019, I was there four seasons. When I got hired, I was working directly for Ross Atkins and they had gone through job search, executive search. And so I was one of like 12 or 13 people that were interviewed, got that job working for Ross Atkins. And there was more that relied on working in marketing and for Marnie Starkman when Marnie made that Buffalo Experiment a success and she became more of a force within the blue jays organization and uh so they when they

brought andrea and she reported to marnie and a lot of the stuff that i had been doing in an overlap situation with uh with adam and rodney um then went into her uh. Right. So rules are not nearly as clearly defined as we might think. You hear Ross Atkins, general manager, in charge of this. Rich Griffin, in charge of this. And Howard Starkman, who was the original PR director of the Blue Jays, Marnie's father, when he was there, he was the PR director, and then he was vice president in charge of communications. And you added rules to him, and he had assistants and in charge of communications and you know you added

roles to him and he had assistants and that type of thing so that I guess the role evolved you've seen it from the beginning when you were with the Expos from very young how the role of a press liaison PR director whatever you want to call it has evolved or in some cases has devolved, right? Yeah. And the thing that struck me the most when I went to the Blue Jays, finally after 24 years at the Star, was the difference between the organization in Montreal, where we had, I think, 48 people total, including ticket office, and got to the Blue Jays and there there was like 200 people, and everything was decentralized.

There was more specialization. And in Montreal, it was great because broadcasting, we all met together and decided things, and it affected the direction of the organization, the future of the organization. So you were part of all those decisions, no matter what department you were heading. And, uh, you know, we had a Christmas party in the clubhouse, uh, in December.

And, uh, I looked around and there were, had to be 300 people there. Just for the Blue Jays. Yeah. 300 people. Yeah. Wow. Well, we got 12 parking specialists. What? It's a growth industry. Yeah. But, no, that's the big difference is the scope and size of it. And in 2019, when I was hired, it was a week before spring training,

and I went down to spring training and was thrown into the deep end of the pool. And sort of 2020, of course, 2020 and 21 were COVID years, where Zoom and high tech became the thing. Right. And that's not my specialty. You know that, Hebsey. But at the same time, too, what it did was it took away a key element that the press had always had with the players and management

and sort of made it easy, I guess, for management and the players and management and sort of made it easy i guess for for management and the players to say we can keep our distance from the media and they can still do their job and at the same time say let's create our own let's create our own content within the blue jays organization with the help of major league baseball with all this and let's create our own narratives instead of waiting for the reporters to ask the questions right get the stuff so how quickly did that happen and how much of did covet have to do with the the separation between accelerator media and yeah i think it sped up the process i think it was headed in that way for sure and and the uh the social media department of the of the blue jays is tremendous it's one of the best in all of baseball. Really good.

And fans in Canada and in Toronto and Blue Jays fans and sports fans use social media in Canada and Toronto more than any other, you know, because we're more intelligent than most fan bases. We're advanced people, absolutely. And so it just sped up the process but to your point earlier um my specialty and what i love doing is interacting in the clubhouse with the players looking them in the eye and saying hey can you do this can you talk to these people it's good i know he's fm but what the hell let's do it yeah. Yeah, you know, maybe more people will go to Expos games

that listen to FM radio. Hey, no static at all. Yeah, great. That should have been the tagline, no static at all. Yeah, yeah. Actually, I think the Steely Dan movie, no, it didn't come out by then. Yeah, no static by then.

Okay, so, because I want to go back to Jamaica and then get this full story fascinating career you've had and it's not over yet we just found out you were because it was it spun in some circles as richard griffin retires and when people retire typically it's like okay i've had enough i'm gonna hand in my badge and go like just you know i don't know work on the farm or something but But you're not retired. You're just no longer with the Blue Jays. Yeah, I have not had enough.

I won't have enough until I use that sponsor of yours, the funeral home. Which one? Okay, hopefully not for a long time. But, yeah, I plan on finding something around baseball. I was 50 years in the game, and it's kind of hard to. Bob Elliott needs writers, right? You're going to write for a Canadian baseball there with, uh,

uh, Bob Elliott. I, I used to be like when Bob was covering for the Ottawa citizen and he worked in the press box in Montreal. Yeah. I was good friends with him. He came to Toronto.

I was good friends with him. I came to work for the star. I wasn't such good friends. And then at a certain point in time we became great friends again, but I, I think I, um, would rather find a route of my own and, uh, find something that's either existing or that I start. Okay. Love it. So this is already breaking news here in Toronto, Mike.

We got the, we got it straight from the horse's mouth here. Richard Griffin tells us, you didn't want to leave the Jays, but it wasn't working out and you are on the outside and you're looking for something, a new challenge, so we can have a fourth chapter to this story.

Then you'll have to come back and complete the story. No doubt. Okay, awesome. Do you drink beer, Richard? Yes. Can I, Mike? Yeah. Before you go into that, can I, I just have to do this aside because it's going to get lost somewhere.

When you at first asked Richard, you know, how did he and I first meet? Yeah. We really didn't, like, the whole story wasn't all there. Right. I'm an aspiring FM radio broadcaster. Rich is a young, and we're both single, in Montreal, you know. Yeah, I'm glad you said in Montreal. You know, in Montreal, we're both, and so, and I'm doing that kind of thing.

And so, you know, I'm dating, and I go out with this, you know, lovely young lady for lunch named Debbie, very, very nice. We have a nice lunch and all that. And then, and now I forget, I kind of forget what the rest happened was. I had either called her for another date or something or Rich ran into me at the press box and it was like, yeah, I'm going out with her now

or something like that. Wow. And I'm like, oh, yeah, no, great. That's terrific. You know, and so I don't recall. I just remember the funny thing was kind of like, oh yeah, hi, you know, and I would see him and I'm like, how's it going with Debbie?

Oh, it's going great with Debbie. And then years later, it's like, oh, okay. Well, yeah, they've been together for 42 years. I just know that when I was coaching baseball in Oakville and my son was catching the other catcher, his mom also went to lunch with Hebsey. There you go. So Hebsey gets her out. There you go so hebsey gets around there you go

it's all i can say only with ball players and their and their families so that was pretty so that was just pretty i'm glad you chimed in with that yeah that was it was a no i didn't see it was a kind of connection interrupt me anytime i remember last year and i told you that i was calling rich to try to get some to get credentials i saw twitter photo of you trying to get into the spring training facility i couldn't even get to see i couldn't even get to see rich right he hadn't gotten down there yet because of the covet thing and i was already down there and i just remember going up to the gates going you know i used to be to one of the guys i used to be hoping somebody would recognize me going yeah so richie right off the top again we're going back and we're gonna obviously this won't be it. So funny. But when Mark Hebzier, you know,

formerly of Sportsline, a legend in this marketplace for sports coverage, still hosts Hebsey on Sports. What a wonderful sports podcast that is. But when he's knocking at the door in the spring training facility in Dunedin, Florida, can't you just send a text and they put that lanyard around Hebsey's neck

and he's got full reign there? Like, what happened there? Hebsey doesn't get in anymore. Well, if I was there, I'd bring him in and we stand in the parking lot where we can talk. But he doesn't get in the clubhouse. He doesn't get on the field. He doesn't get to shake hands with the players.

Who knows where he's been? And I'm not mainstream media. His reputation precedes him. I'm not mainstream media. What does that mean anymore? This't montreal 1980 fm versus am this is a whole different it's not like fm well we don't like this is no no no we have to draw a line between mainstream media and non-mainstream media and we have our own people those lines are so blurry now though yeah but there's so many talented and intelligent

and smart baseball podcasters that we got to draw the line somewhere. Just above Hebsey. Yeah, yeah. It's like the Mendoza line. Yeah, you don't let podcasters. If you're below Hebsey, you don't get it. All right.

To finish the beer thought real quick is that there's a wonderful independent craft brewery here in southern Etobicoke, but you can find their beer throughout the province. Great Lakes Brewery has sent over some fresh craft beer for you, Richard, so you're bringing that home with you. I drink that quite often at the pint right next to the ballpark. What's your favorite Great Lakes beer? The lager. The IPA? Is it the premium

lager that I'm holding? No, that's too expensive. This is good. I will try it. Okay, I'll get you some lager. They have a devil's I'll get some lager. You'll get some Canuck as well. They're kind of their staple, the pale ale. You're getting some fresh craft beer from Great Lakes.

I mentioned the lasagna from Palma Pasta. We've already shouted out Ridley Funeral Home. Now let's go back to, I was going to do the Canna Cabana shout out before I took it to Kingston, Jamaica, because they will not be undersold on cannabis or cannabis accessories over 140 locations across the country. Shout out to Canna Cabana. That's where Ebsi gets his weed.

Now, Richard Griffin, take us back. I think this is a surprise to some people. You were born and raised in Jamaica. Yeah, that's one of the things that Bob Elliott loves to tell people is that we're both Kingston boys. Wait a second. He's from Trenchtown? So my dad moved to post-war.

He was from Winnipeg, and he went to Queens University, and he graduated in chemical engineering. He went to work for Seagram's, and after the war, World War II, they decided they needed to open up Captain Morgan, and they needed a young volunteer to go down there into a third-world nation and run the sugar estate, and that was my dad. Wow. And so we have five children who were all born in Jamaica. I grew up going to convents. I was one of the 10 young

boys and one of the three young white boys. And I always wondered why I came last in the hundred meter dash, but, but it was dash. But it was quite an experience. The night before we flew to Canada, flew to Montreal in 1963 after Jamaica became independent and nationalized all the industries. The night or the morning of the flight, I went out on a catamaran

with some deep-sea fishermen by myself at five in the flight, I went out on a catamaran with some deep sea fishermen by myself, uh, five in the morning, came back and went and woke my mom up and said, she said, where you been? I said, we went out fishing, which parenting has changed. I found out since I have four of my own, but that would not happen these days, but it was a great experience. We used to watch, we didn't watch anything because there was no television growing up. So we would listen to FM radio. We would listen to shortwave radio of the World Series and it was always the Yankees.

Became a Yankee fan. Right. Became a baseball fan even though I'd never seen a game. That's interesting. I was going to ask you like was it your move to montreal when you discover baseball or did you discover baseball while you were living in jamaica but it sounds like you're listening to these uh these world series games on the shortwave and uh falling in love yeah my dad was uh when he was going to queens

after he graduated from queens he went to montreal and he uh remembers going to games with jackie robinson there and he was a huge baseball fan. And so that sort of, he passed that along. It was him and me and my brother sitting in front of the shortwave radio listening to, we listened to John Glenn's Circle of Globe. I watched the Cuban Missile Crisis unfold off my backyard. It was great. What kind of music did you listen to?

We listened to, well, at the time, Calypso. Reggae hadn't really come in. It was coming into form just as we were leaving, but it was Harry Belafonte. All my kids know those songs. No North American or American radio did you ever get? No. I thought the Alamo was a fresh release in 1963 with John Wayne,

but it was like 58 or something. Wow. Because when I was in Jamaica, there was... Yeah, it's changed since you were in Jamaica. No, no, no. I'm saying when I was first in Jamaica in 1979, the cab driver was playing Kenny Rogers. Oh, cool.

Right? Right. No, it was 81, sorry. Okay. And so I asked him about country music, and he said that they got a station from Texas. This was in the 70s. Sure.

They could pick up on shortwave or whatever it was, and a lot of people were listening to it, sort of like the British invasion, where they couldn't hear the American music unless they got the records from the semen. Right. And so this guy was telling me, yeah, this guy was telling me how there's an area, maybe,

or a lot of people in Jamaica that listen to country music, which I just found to be. Yeah, and once a week in the Daily Gleaner, they would run a top 50 songs. And most of them were North American, but most of them were like two or three years old. That's funny. So tell me, Richard, how do you get hired by the Expos?

Like when and how does that happen? Well, I don't know if you guys, you probably know Nifty Neiman, Jeff Neiman. Yep. And he passed away in 2019, but he had the job as an intern and I was failing at Concordia University. I was dropping out, loved baseball, went and applied for a summer job and Nifty Neiman had just quit, told him he quit. So I got that job.

And then after one year of interning, doing stats, doing game notes, they hired me full time in 74. And I just remember the little office I had, it had a ceiling like this in your studio. That's a low ceiling. Yeah. And I just remember being a 20-year-old kid and working on press guide biographies in December or whatever it is. And all of a sudden I look and Willie Davis is standing there in a full-length mink coat. Wow. Willie Davis. The coolest.

And I'm like, oh, I'm in the big leagues now. The coolest. But they liked the game notes that I wrote. They liked the press guide biographies that I wrote. Yeah. One of the big turning points was they had the PETA people, or their version at the time, because we had Farm Day, and Pepe Frias always chased the grease pig.

And the grease pig on the way down from St. Heacinth passed away. It was an enclosed cube van, and there were no windows. There was no, and pigs don't sweat. Oh, wow. It's terrible. Yeah. People came in just to see Pepe Frias chase the grease pig, and we had no grease pig.

And so in the game notes, I put that he pulled a hamstring. That's very good. And so in the game notes, I put that he pulled a hamstring. That's very good. And they like that. I got them off the hook with the animal cruelty people and the rest is history. Okay. The writers, Mike, in those days, especially the writers who follow the team every day, were especially, you know, good press notes really helped the writers a lot. Well-written press notes, like Rich was famous for, just made the job. As broadcasters, too, you could kind of glance, going, oh, here's a little, I don't know.

And great little quips and perfect for filling time and filling space in your columns and all that. And Howie Starkman had them in Toronto, and depending on where you went, some were better than others. Rich was famous, though, for, oh, it's like, okay, what have we got in the press notes today oh i love it i love it the key is being truthful but presenting it in a way presenting in such a way that it's it's more interesting than for example now it's like so and so in his last seven games is uh yes seven for 23 and blah blah blah first blah, blah. First time since, you know, Tuesday night, like really stats that make no sense

versus something that's got some pot. Like, oh, that's a good one. I have a little audio for you because I have a fantastic question that came in from FOTM, Leslie Taylor. Leslie, hello. I've met Leslie at a few TMLX events. Hebsey's been to a few.

Maybe he's been to one with Leslie. But Leslie's question is, and I have a little clip of her dad, because it's about her dad. What are Richard Griffin's memories of working with my dad? Now, Leslie's dad is this individual. Let's listen for a few seconds. One and one pitch on the way. Swung on, sharp grounder, Wills has it,

bobbles it, throw to first, in time, he did it! A no-hitter! A no-hitter! A no-hitter for Bill Stoneman! Russ Taylor. Russ Taylor was one of my favorite people early on with the Expos when I got there. He worked with Dave Van Horn, who's another one of my favorite people and still is. with Dave Van Horn, who's another one of my favorite people and still is. Russ, of course, was helpful in keeping the franchise alive in Montreal because he pinpointed Jerry Park as a possible location, even though it wasn't quite Major League caliber. Although it was because a Major League team played there,

and fans really, really took to it. But Russ Taylor was a classy, classy man major league team played there and fans really really took to it yeah yeah but russ taylor was uh he was a classy classy man who was also in addition to working in the radio booth was also um broadcast director at the time so i had dealings with him um he showed me the ropes he told me what to do what not to do. That didn't include beer at all. But he was a wonderful, and there are so many stories of the first couple of years on the road with the, I wasn't traveling yet. I didn't get there until 1973. But early on, the traveling group with Dave and Russ and Ted Blackman,

and there was a group, John Paul Saro, there was a group that did nothing but party on the road. And some of the stories are epic. So when I got there, it was at the tail end of that party time. I tried to reinvigorate it. But some of the stories with Russ and Dave and the travel group at that time, I don't think the rest of North America, the rest of Major League Baseball, the rest of the National League knew what hit them until the Expos group came into town. But Russ was a great guy, one of my favorites. He's still on the ballot. I'm not supposed to say it, but he's still on the ballot

for the Canadian Baseball Hall of Fame. That's the second part of Leslie's question. Canadian Baseball Hall of Fame. That's the second part of Leslie's question. What would it take to get my dad, her dad, into the Canadian Baseball Hall of Fame? He's still on the ballot, and I keep campaigning for him. But I think that as, it's the same problem that Jacques Doucette has getting into Cooperstown,

is that as the Expos recede into history, there's more of a look for current candidates. But as long as Russ is on the ballot, as long as Russ's candidacy stays alive, I'll keep being a proponent for it. He's deserving of it because without him, without him pinpointing Jerry Park, the Expos would have failed and the Blue Jays would not have existed. Right. No, thank you. And Leslie's going to appreciate those kind words about her dad. Hey, Leslie, I used to listen on, in Oshawa, there's a station, CKAR, so 1350.

Really weak, weak signal out of Oshawa, but they carried the Expos games before the Blue Jays, way before the Blue Jays. If I'm not mistaken, the second season, so 1970, I think. And I remember listening to those games. And, man, the signal would fade in and out. And my brother and I, we would drive the car to a certain, like Warden in Ellesmere or whatever.

You could get the signal at the top of the hill there in the evenings. It was very difficult. And the Expos games were only on once a week back in those days on the CBC. You'd get 20 games a year. Not nearly enough. Right. And I love that team, man. I love that team.

When I first went to Montreal, I wanted to meet all these guys and Ron Hunt. That's Ron Hunt. And Hebsey. C-K-A-R was A-M, so we gave them credit. You did not. There was no sports person. There was no sit in the press box for them. All right.

Now, Richard, this is a good opportunity. We just talked about Russ Taylor, but you were also a radio broadcaster for a period of time, right, when Dave Van Horn moved to television? Yeah. I mean, those were the days when there was either once a week or twice a week, every Wednesday and then every Saturday or Sunday, once on the weekend.

So it was only twice a week, but Dave... But Radio Canada had a different schedule. There were a bunch of games that were on Radio Canada that we'd watch on Channel 25 in Toronto. Right, 12 or 13. Yes, I remember. Please, please, or my favorite, oh, le mauvais lancer.

So that was another thing, was when you go to Montreal and watch a ball game, it's a totally different animal. You're getting it in both languages and expressions that are just, whoa, that's just. Un bel papillon is a knuckleball, butterfly ball. Butterfly ball. That's beautiful. Yeah, it was great.

But, yeah, that was so twice a week. So it was about 30 games a year. I do radio with Ron Roosh and Rob Falls and Elliot Price. Those two gentlemen are both FOTMs like yourself. I played golf with Price down in Fort Colburn this past summer. He's crazy about golf. Yeah, yeah. Not that good.

He's just crazy. He's crazy, period. He's in BC now. Yeah, he moved to BC. He moved to BC. Shout out to Elliot Price, FOTM Elliot Price. I realize I got to get Richard to Toronto, but I still have more here. For example, here's a name that Hebsey knows because we had fun with him this morning on Hebsey on Sports.

But Brian Gerstein writes in. Brian's from Montreal. And he writes in, I can't wait for you to talk about producing these gems. And then there's a picture of all these Expos guides. He says he lost his, what is it? I think he lost his 1993 one. And then he said there's no 94, or the 94 one was his last one for obvious reasons.

But could you share some insight for Brian about maybe producing the Expos guides that he loved? Yeah, the guides, I mean, that was primitive production there. It was, you know, I mean, that was primitive production there. It was, you know, you'd still go in and have the little, what do you call it, where you carve the letters out and replace them if there's a mistake. Template.

Yeah, whatever. Whatever they call it. It was a long production, but the covers were always a pride and joy because we tried to keep players off the cover and just make them baseball teams. And they were beautifully, an artist would produce and we would choose between four or five.

And then finally, I think there's a couple that have players on the cover. One of them, Gary Carter was on the cover and I gave it to his son at his funeral reception when I went over there when his wife held the funeral reception for him, and he appreciated it. It was a beautiful cover tribute to Gary. And 82, we had players on the cover because we wanted them voted to the All-Star Game, and we made sure of that by using a hole punch where you could see yeah i remember that yeah yeah and they did how many like six starters through a thousand gary carter that we just punched them and then drove them down

in a cube stuff the ballad box yeah but but wait so how many so how many starters in the 82 game i was there how many four or five well the pitcher wasn't voted by. No, the pitcher wasn't. Steve Rogers started that game. Yeah, that's right. And Dave Steve started that game, right? No, he was the year after in San Francisco. Oh, he's the year after. Okay, my apologies.

That was at Comiskey. Comiskey, the year after. Right, that was the game. I remember. Hamacher gave up a grand slam home run. But, yeah, no, it was, those press guides were our pride and joy. And like Hebsey said, we would always try and put some, because it was broadcasters especially who used the media guides.

They come and you're there for the three-game series, so they look through it. And after a couple of years, they read every word of every biography in the Expos guide because they wanted to see what was in there that they might have missed. And that's the only thing you wanted is for people to read it. You know, you can have a beautiful cover, which they all did, but you want people to use it,

and broadcasters especially were reliant on it. Yeah, completely reliant on it. There were two things. There was the team media guide, and there was the American League Red Book or the National League Green Book, which had more league details and rules and stuff like that, whereas the individual team could go crazy.

And remember, those media guys went from being a couple inches thick to really thick. Well, no, they were all the same shape because they had to fit into those slots. They had to be that. Ours were thicker because you had French and English. And it was a problem because one of the early biographies was Sleepy Joe Gilbert, a young black kid from Texas,

and he always had a toothpick like UL Washington, always played with a toothpick in his mouth. And so in his hobbies, I wrote, loves pool. And Monique translated it as to natation, that he loves swimming. So they would all go ask him about swimming. Yeah, you're a black kid from Jasper, too. Yeah, billiard, man. Instead of le billiard or whatever.

Yeah, yeah, that's good. That's funny. That's funny. So he said, why are you asking me about swimming? That's funny. There's on Twitter, DM Fox is the handle. DM Fox is, first off, Richard, congratulations on a wonderful career. Well, we just learned the career is not over yet.

Okay. There's going to be another chapter in this career. But the second thing from DMFox, he would love to know your favorite Bill Lee story. Bill Lee's story is the one where he claimed. I know the one where he's jogging? Hit by a cab, yeah. And I had him at a function, and that's the thing about going, and we had a Q&A session, Bill and myself,

and I had more behind the scenes than he knew. So, like, my favorite ability is that he fell out of the second floor window onto a wrought iron spiked fence oh my god that's impaled because the husband came home and he got up and hailed the cab went to the hospital and he showed up his and he had you know athletes thighs and it was like purple from the hip to the knee, and he missed one start. And he went back out, and he kept throwing his slop up there. And every day after those games, he would, you know, go to the shower,

and he'd go, how the hell is this guy pitching like this? And that showed me a couple of things about Bill Lee. 1980? Was that 1980? That was in 19... Yeah. Yeah, and here's why. Because that was the year of the cocaine. All the guys were like...

Everyone was doing cocaine. You hear about Tim Raines. I was in Montreal. That was my first year. And it was like, it was very different from Toronto. Head first slide, right? Because the vial, the glass vial...

Well, it was part of it. I don't know if that was that year. But there, you know, first of all, you had Ron LaFleur was on that team. He was a bad guy. He was not a good guy. He wasn't a great guy, but I like Ron LaFleur.

I liked him too. I like Rodney Scott. Rodney, they were good. Nice guys. They were good guys. It's just they were, I don't know. What's the word? I don't know.

Not good influences necessarily on some of the other people. But hey, listen. You know, some guys go to Penn. Ron LaFleur was in the Penn. So, like, I don't know what you expect, you know? Yeah, yeah. I can't get you to, sorry, I can't get you to Toronto. You're still in Montreal.

I have to play a couple of clips. And I'm sorry, Expos fans, but we're just going to get a taste of this one. We're not. Now in the stretch. Here's the 3-1 pitch. it swung on fly ball center field Dawson going back onto the warning track Dawson at the wall that ball is a home run that ball is out of here and a home run for Rick Monday and the Dodger bench clears to congratulate Rick Monday who has hit a two-out home run here in the ninth inning and it appeared that Andre Dawson had room as he went back to the fence.

And he just flat ran out of room as the ball cleared the fence at about the 385 mark. Well, as we mentioned, Ron, Rick Mundy, a fastball hitter in that situation. Steve had to come in with a fastball. He hit it hard. He hit it to center field, the deepest part of the field. Andre went back on it. Thought he had a chance, but it just cleared the fence. A ninth inning home run.

And the Dodgers have gone ahead 2-1. 1981 NLCS. Game five, is that right? Anyway, that's the Rick Monday home run. Might be the biggest moment in Expos history, sadly. Ron Roosh and Tommy Hutton on the call. Yeah. So we would have not heard that.

We would have heard that. That was a local radio call. Yeah. Wow, man. So you were there, Richard. Were you there at this time, Hepsy81? No, I was watching. We had a big poker game.

Was that on a holiday? No, I was on a Monday, obviously. Right, but was it a holiday Monday or part of a holiday no i was on a monday obviously right but was it a holiday monday or part of a holiday weekend no it was just rained out on sunday or there you go okay iced out on sunday i used to yeah okay there you go on monday no i was we were listen it was that was that was just it brought us to our knees if it's too painful i can move on but i do have a happier clip i'll play next but uh any uh i don't know thoughts recollection yeah that was uh it took me eight years before i would even say hello to rick monday even when he

was a broadcaster i wouldn't even acknowledge him or shake his hand but one thing that came out of that is yeah i'm shallow wow richard griffin wow we're shallow're a show. One thing that came out of that, we lost that game, and there was a guy who had dementia from New York named Israel Shapiro, and he was a huge fan of Duke Snyder. So he would follow us around. He would go to spring training. He would go to New York. And for some reason, he was able to come to montreal his sister got him a greyhound bus pass so she could get him out of uh her hair

and so he took the bus to uh montreal and for that and he came to the press box and he he had marks on his head from police batons like he was he had fullon dementia, but he was like a huge baseball fan. He went to Ebbets Field in Brooklyn, and he became a Duke Snyder fan. So we'd go to New York, and he'd go in the Grand Hyatt, and he'd come swinging through with a security guy on his arm, you know, pushing him out onto the street again. Anyway, the story is that Debbie, who Hebsey and I both know, the game was wrapped up,

and we were going downstairs to the post-game party, and Israel was in the little foyer of the press box, and it was freezing. It was below zero, below 32 at the time. And I said, Israel, what are you doing here? And he said, I have $10. I got to give Peter Durstow, the traveling secretary, he lent me. I said, okay, give me the 10 bucks. I'll give it to Peter.

I said, you have no socks on. He had running shoes. He had Converse with holes in the toe. So I said, here. And I stopped and took my shoes off, took my socks off, gave him my socks. He put the socks on. And this apparently impressed Debbie so much that she married me. Oh, that's great.

Amazing. Wait a second. Pete Durso was the traveling secretary in? 81. Was he there in 80 also? Yeah. Because I knew him when he was with the Blue Jays. He had been with the Jays the years before that.

Yeah, he replaced uh uh gene kirby right yeah and his dad joe was a top top sports writer joe durso the new york time new york times yeah yeah oh my god i hadn't heard that the first few years of the blue jays like there was a place it was called the polish press box i feel bad about that but what had happened was when they built the stadium for baseball, they mistakenly put in plexiglass in what should have been an open stadium, an open box so that the broadcast, TV broadcasters would broadcast from there. But they mistakenly put plexiglass, which rendered it useless for any broadcaster

because it's all concrete and glass and the echo. So they labeled it the Polish Press Box. Well, what happened was it ended up being a place where all these Blue Jay executives or lesser employees could, during the game, kind of go in and have a beer or whatever they wanted to do or shit about the game.

And Joe Dursa would come in, Elliot Wally would come in, Pat Gillick would come in. Everybody would, you know, Tom Cheek would come in between innings if he wasn't doing games. And it ended up being this sort of, I don't know, like a Tom Cheek would come in between innings if he wasn't doing games and it ended up being this sort of, I don't know,

like a Friars Club almost of baseball people and Joe and Pete Durso told the best stories in a New York accent that I had never heard before. I had never heard this accent but rat-tat-tat-tat-tat

type of talking. Anyway, sorry to interrupt. All right, last clip, then we're getting, I promise you, Richard's coming to Toronto.

We got to get him to Toronto. So last clip because I just don't want to end it with the Rick Monday. Just one more. In the bottom of the ninth. 26 in a row have been retired by Dennis Martinez. One and two pitch. In the air.

Center field. Grissom. El Presidente. El Perfecto. El Presidente. I'll break it down. Richard, maybe happier memories, maybe. Yeah, I appreciate, Mike, that you end on a more positive note. Although getting married because of Rick Mondays.

That's called making lemonade out of lemon. But the Dennis Martinez was great because, you know, on the Friday, Mark Gardner had thrown nine no-hit innings and had given up a run in the 10th and lost the game. So twice in three days, the Dodgers had been no-hit for nine innings. And some great trivia came out of there. Of course, Ron Hasse catching both games, the two previous perfect games. No, two perfect games.

First catcher to catch two perfect games. Chris Gwynn was the last out of Dennis' perfect game, was the last out of Tom Browning's perfect game. So he was the last out of two consecutive perfect games. Wow. We flew from Los Angeles. Oh, and the video after the game on the field that you can get on YouTube after Dave Van Horn's great call of El Presidente, El Perfecto, that video ends with me in a crowd of trying to grab Dennis.

And all four of my kids and both my grandkids look at it and they're like, oh, there's dad, there's grandpa. Love it. I can see the video. I can see it. There's like, you know, by the way, Dennis, we might need you for a few comments after your birthday. So the next morning at 4.30 in the morning,

the Today Show with Brian Gumbel wanted, we flew to San Francisco for the series. It was the last game of the Dodgers series. And so I said, Dennis, can you go on at 4.30 in the morning? And he's a reformed alcoholic, and I'm not. So he said, yeah, no problem. And he had a Nicaraguan broadcast friend with the Giants, and they went out and talked about,

he was still on a high from that perfect game. So I went out with Elliot Price, and we got back to the lobby at 4.30 in the morning, and I, where's Dennis? Where's Dennis? And he was like in his shirt and tie and jacket ready for Brian Gumbel, and I went, how the hell did he do that? But that was a memory that's lasted a long time. Plus, when I went as a writer in Cleveland,

Dennis had gone to Cleveland. It was my first trip to Cleveland as a writer, and I saw him on the field. I said, Dennis, you want to go for a beer after? And he went, yeah, I'm not going to have a beer, but I'll sit with you. Right. So we went to the hotel bar, the Key Marriott,

where the team was staying, and I had just finished writing a column. I slid in next to Dennis at the bar, and on TV is Pedro Martinez throwing a perfect game in San Diego. I said, Dennis, this is unbelievable. Pedro is throwing a perfect game. I'm sitting next to Dennis Martinez, who threw a perfect game. And he looked at me, hey, those two women over there are pretty hot.

I went, oh, okay. I can see where you're minding. Yeah. All right. I don't have to remind people what happens in 1994. I did give the Blue Jays that extra year of being defending champion, by the way. But the Expos had a great freaking season,

although the Yankees were pretty good too. But bottom line is, we all know what happens in 94. So let me ask you straight out, why do you end up leaving the Expos organization and coming to Toronto and becoming the Toronto Stars baseball columnist? There were a few reasons for it. And they all pretty much involved work in the future of the the expos as we saw it i mean everyone internally knew that once the strike was settled uh or when they played especially

after the season was canceled that it was all going to change and it did almost immediately but claude brochure at the time was the president and uh he had laid off the traveling secretary and I was going to do traveling secretary. He had laid off a broadcaster. I was going to do broadcast. I already had a post game show. I had PR and he wasn't going to give me any more money. And especially the radio gig. I knew that if I didn't get any more money, I was taking somebody, some professional's job away from him. Like Elliot Price wanted it and a few other people wanted it. And I just didn't think that that was right. And so Dave Perkins called me from the star and he asked, he was a sports editor. He had been the columnist. He knew my game notes from

the two world series in 92, 93, and, and he thought they were pretty good, you know? And, uh, so he called, I might've, I might've mentioned your name to Dave Perkins over the years, a couple of times. So he called and he asked, do you have anyone that you would recommend as a, uh, baseball columnist? I need to replace myself. And I was a PR guy. I was still full on PR guy at the time. And so I recommended a few columnist, I need to replace myself. And I was a PR guy. I was still a full-on PR guy at the time. And so I recommended a few people, and then I recommended Mike Farber. And he said, we've already asked Mike Farber,

and he's just going to stay with SI because his wife is French-Canadian. They live in Montreal. They have kids. And it turns out later that he was BSing me because Farber had recommended me as well. And he was just calling to see, to gauge my interest without asking me. Wait, Perkins was BSing you? Yeah.

Perkins, by the way, been over twice. He came on with Bob Elliott once just to tell me stories. Good FOTM. So hello to Dave Perkins. But the, yeah, so I took the train down and I interviewed, um, at the, at the Skydome, uh, for the job. And it was weird cause I had never written anything anywhere, um, other than game notes and press guides. Right. And, uh, but I just, I knew I loved writing. I knew I could do it. And he said, we want 800 words of your opinion.

And I said to Dave Van Horn, I said, I do that every night in a bar with you. And he said, if you ever come up dry and you can't think of anything to write, then just call early and we'll not have you in the paper. And it never happened in 24 years. So I'm proud of that. But that was the sequence of events. just call early and we'll not have you in the paper and it never happened in 24 years so i'm proud of that but that's uh that was the sequence of events um it took a while because uh the paducah kentucky times got internet before the toronto started and and i was uh i was the butt of a lot of early jokes because i didn't have information that every podcaster and uh and

blogger had but uh it turned you know it settled down it turned out who was at the start rich who was at the start at the time when you joined what year were you talking 95 95 yeah so who was there um doing baseball yeah uh alan ryan mark zielinski and um Baseball? Yeah. Alan Ryan, Mark Zielinski, and there's been a succession of baseball writers that I've mentored and pushed out of the nest to do better. Carl Kelly was there, Brendan Kennedy. Brendan Kennedy. Yeah, there's a ton of – Laura Armstrong. I remember reading Alan Ryan in the Sunday Star, I think it was,

and he always had a sports quiz every Sunday. This was for a number of years. I think it might have been in the 80s. I don't know when they discontinued. But it was like a 50-question weekend New York Times crossword, Sunday crossword kind of a thing, and it was fantastic. And whenever I'd see him in the press box, I'd always say, oh, that was a great quiz or I might have a little question for him or something like that.

That's what we always talked about. But any baseball fan, you had to read The Star. The Star's coverage was fantastic. That was like the height of their powers when you think about the circulation and how important newspapers were. Oh, man. the height of their powers when you think about the circulation and uh how important newspapers were when i uh when i joined the star it was the seventh largest circulation north american newspaper which you know when you consider the la and new york markets and stuff like that that

was pretty good amazing i just had uh monday night i uh drank great lakes beer and kicked out jams of ben rayner and you know ben long time uh he he says he met you at a couple of Christmas parties here and there Ben Rayner and Richard Griffin crossing paths but of course they're not at one Yonge Street anymore it's in fact even the name plates off one side of the building I was actually biking by yesterday still on some others but one Yonge Street

no longer home to the Toronto Star Ed Keenan they're in the well or whatever it's called now but I'm wondering yeah give us an idea like how the newspaper game changed in your tenure there. Like from 95, we talk about the height of the powers. We know how many people they were sending to these World Series games, right?

Now there's probably not that many people working for the paper now. Like in your time with the Star from 95 to 2019? Is that when you leave? Yeah, beginning of 2019, 2019 yeah like what did you witness in terms of uh the power of the newspaper yeah when i got there it was uh you know the production was done on the same floor in that building as uh as the editorial stuff and you were expected to go in four or five times a week not just to uh defy your expenses like it became. Right. And the thing to me was that the sports department and the paper itself

were so proud of how much they covered in person. Like when I went on a road trip, I was expected to look at the NFL schedule, the NBA, whatever. And spring training, I'd go to golf tournaments and cover and uh I went to Orlando to cover a Raptors game from Dunedin and I went to Miami to cover a Raptors game from Dunedin horse races don't forget horse races horse races when you're down covering spring training hey shout out to Peter Gross but it was uh it was like what can you cover for us? And I covered so many events that are memorable.

Super Bowl in Phoenix in 1996, January 96, when they almost lost it because they wouldn't recognize Martin Luther King Day. And it became a major political football, if you'll pardon that. Pun intended. day. And it became a major political football, if you'll pardon that. But, and like Diana Ross did the halftime show, hanging out of a helicopter, it was like memorable stuff, you know? I covered NFL playoff games. I covered the one where Terrell Owens made the catch for the 49ers in the end zone. They rented me a convertible and it rained for four days so they saw me coming you know but that that is a big difference and and at the end and i think it was 20 and i covered every

world series like i went to 39 world series in a row and that ended in 2016 with that great world series with the cubs and the indians um and, they said there's no interest with Toronto fans, Toronto readers for the World Series. And I went, oh, this is really tame. And then 2018, I was on the ground. I just landed in Florida for spring training. And there was a conference call. And they said, there's no more travel in sports.

Nobody's going to travel. And I had just landed in Florida, so I went to the ballpark, filed a column, filed the next day, filed for the next 40 days. Nobody told me to come home, so I didn't. But I could see the writing on the wall at that point. And that's why when the opportunity to speak with Ross Atkins and take the job with the Blue Jays came along, that it wasn't that tough a decision.

Right. Now, I'm not going to get to the Jays that quickly here, Richard, because I do want to dwell on a few things. In fact, I realize you come to Toronto in 1995. By the way, what did you think of the city off the hop there? Did you guys settle in without a problem, or was there any culture shock? Well, when I was living in Jamaica, my mother's brother lived in Scarborough and still does or still did. He passed away a few years ago, but his whole family is there. They had nine kids and they lived in Scarborough. Every second summer, we would fly up and spend two weeks with them.

So I had been to the exhibition. I had been to all sorts of things. So it wasn't that much of a culture shock. It was for my kids who were all having to transfer schools and stuff. But for me and Debbie, it was not as difficult as it might seem. Did you settle into Toronto proper or one of our fine suburbs? Well, we went to Oakville because it was on its way. I figured it was access to Pearson.

I could get to Buffalo. I could get to Cleveland in Detroit. I could drive. And that's why we settled out west of the city, and it's worked out. I mean, it was a great community for four kids growing up. I coached baseball for 20 years, and it was an opportunity to spend more time with my kids.

Two older kids didn't know who I was. They had to look in the paper. They had to look in the paper and see where the expos were playing and that's where i was because i did 156 games in montreal every year um and yeah so it worked out oakville was great we're still there the kids are all growing up and whatever pat my my youngest son is scouting for the blue jays now nice yeah okay it's worked out really well are you still in the same house or did you downsize once the kids left? No, we downsized once the kids left.

We were down on the lakeshore where the servants used to live, you know. I was going to say, you chose Oakville, which is smart, because it makes it easier for you to visit the TMDS studio here in New Toronto and regale us with stories. Okay, what was the first World Series you attended live, Richard? and regale us with stories. Okay, what was the first World Series you attended live, Richard? It was the Yankees and Dodgers in 1978.

And how many World Series in a row did you attend live? It was 39, and it wasn't the entire series because I was a volunteer PR person. I volunteered for everything that involved baseball because that's my life and that's what I loved. And so they were always looking for PR volunteers because once you get to the

World Series, the Championship Series and the World Series, it becomes an MLB event. So they were looking for reliable, low-budget. Economically. Reliable, low-budget. low budget but they didn't count on my being the pied piper of beer gardens I would take the young PR guys out and we'd show up and we'd get our work done but we enjoyed the baseball

we enjoyed the travel and 39 in a row wow awesome that is awesome and because so what i'm letting the listeners know is even though richard griffin doesn't come to toronto and start working for the star until 95 and he was working for the expos in 92 93 you were of course uh you witnessed these blue jays back-to-backs because you've been to whatever 39 world series in a row and i'm glad Hebsey's here because I'm going to play a little clip of the late, great Tom Cheek. And then you two are going to talk about this moment

in Blue Jays history. Here we go. Joe has had his moments. Two balls and two strikes on him. Here's the pitch on the way. A swing and a belt. Left field. Way back.

Blue Jays win it! The Blue Jays are World Series champions as Joe Carter hits a three-rub home run in the ninth inning and the Blue Jays have repeated as World Series champions. Touch them all, Joe! You'll never hit a bigger home run in your life. See, Richard, we have happier memories in Blue Jays' land than they do in Expos' land.

Yes. But 92, 93 World Series, and 94 could have been the third straight happiest memory. But I don't know, Hebsey, I was in the press box doing the in-game notes, and I was at a pause because there's no use in that inning of doing any notes. So I went and stood and watched from one of the entranceways to the main press box, and Chris Wheeler, who was a longtime broadcaster for the Phillies, they weren't doing the radio because it was the World Series, but he was there.

And he comes up to me and he goes, just like two seconds before the home run, he goes, Griff, do you think we could borrow John Wetteland for an inning? And then the next pitch was boom. And he looks at me. Wild thing. To this day, when I see Chris Wheeler at spring training or whatever because he does the broadcast, or he does the PA at their spring training games in Clearwater,

we shake our heads and go, John Wetteland. Can we borrow John Wetteland? That's a good line in that moment. Yeah. Because Mitch Williams, wild thing, yeah. And that was like, you know, Tom Cheek I did not know well because he had just done some Expos games, and that's where he was discovered by Dave Van Horn in Vermont,

just hosting a winter caravan. How friendly are you with Dave Van Horn? I love Dave. He's one of my best friends in baseball. Would Dave do Toronto Mike? I feel like we've got to get Dave on Toronto Mike. Yeah, he would. Okay, we're going to talk afterwards.

We're going to make that happen. That's great. And the thing about Tom Cheek is that as I began to write and he began to read my stuff, he appreciated that it wasn't 100% like rah-rah. Because even as a broadcaster, you have to be a little realistic about things, you know? And so at spring training, I'd be there,

and at that time we always had two people covering a columnist and a beat guy yeah and he would uh look at me one day from a balcony and he'd go like this he'd wiggle his waggle his hands because i always had my golf clubs in the trunk and i would go okay and i'd call the desk and i go i got nothing today and then we'd go play golf and tom and I became very good friends that way. Oh, yeah, we lost him far too soon. Oh, yeah, golf, yeah. So, Hebsey man, remind us.

I know that this has been covered on Toronto Mike, but for those who maybe didn't hear those episodes, although everyone should go into the archives, and every Hebsey appearance on Toronto Mike is gold. There's so many great stories. But remind us, where were you when Joe Carter touched them all? Like, specifically. Okay, you know what?

So two years in a row, I was not at the game where it was taking place and happy because of it. At the time, I was a working journalist, reporter, anchor, whatever. And when the Jays were in the playoffs or when the Leafs were in the playoffs or whatever, I was on the road covering it. you know some days i was anchoring and maybe okay you're going to go to this one and so at that particular time um i was on the desk but that night i wasn't so both uh 92 when winfield in the 11th inning off charlie lee brand right um and they won in the sixth game there and and this one here that you just referenced i was not in the 11th inning off Charlie Liebrand. Right. And they won in the sixth game there. And this one here that you just referenced,

I was not in the building, and I was pretty drunk, stoned, both. For some reason, I thought you were in the building. No, no, not for either of those two. And I'm glad, because had I been in the building, it wouldn't have been as a fan. I would have had to be there as a reporter. And sometimes, you know,

when you're there all the time working, you'd like nothing more than to not be there and just... And the other thing is you have to understand this, is that for a number of years, I had to be more critical of the Blue Jays and the Leafs and the Raptors or whatever because I want them to win, but, you know, I think people that listen to me, you know, I'm not a homer in that regard.

Well, you're a journalist. Well, I'd like to think so. You're looking at both sides of it, right? You're not a blind follower or an extension. No cheering in the press box. Or an extension of the PR department of the team, which many, many are and were back in the day, especially the writers.

Well, actually, that topic's going to come up again as we get Richard into the PR department. Long story short here, if that's possible. I wasn't in either one. I remember I was pretty either wasted or whatever, but for the few times as an adult, I could be a fan. And those were the two occasions where I really was a fan, where from the first time I saw them and loved baseball,

I wanted them to win. You could cheer. And then like the next day or two days later, I had to be the, you know, not unbiased, but the, yeah, it was great, but next year I'm a little worried and I'm going to sign a free agent. There had to be that kind of thing like that.

So I remember just being giddy and not having to worry about being a professional broadcaster, I guess. Mike, I got, before you go on, if you've got time. Of course. I've got a great story about the 92 World Series. Okay, let me set it up then. I want to hear that story, but let's play a little bit of this. John Smoltz, the pinch runner at third.

Kimball. Nixon butts. Kimball on it. Throws to first. For the first time in history, the world championship banner will fly north of the border. The Toronto Blue Jays are baseball's best in 1992. Talk to me about 92. Why don't you have the Tom Cheek call?

Why would you have the CBS? The first time north of the border. I thought I'd mix it up. I thought I'd mix it up. Otis Nixon was a good friend of mine from Montreal. He played in Toronto also. It might have been after.

It was after. It was. He had some good years in Montreal. He had some great years in Montreal. I was an impact player, and I asked him after. I said, what were you thinking? Honestly. What did he say?

He said he thought he could beat it out. He's fast, yeah. he said he said he thought he could beat it he's fast yeah but the the story that i had from 92 was uh game one um with mike swanson who is the uh who was the padres pr guy at the time and we did the game notes together so i finished the pre-game notes and um went downstairs where the pr room was where you could get a sandwich and then come back upstairs for the game. And as we're coming back from getting a sandwich, I'm looking and I go, hey, Swanee, they're flying our flag upside down. Right.

And he goes, are you going to say anything? I said, nah, they'll figure it out. So I went upstairs for the anthem. And I stood next to Howie Starkman because I wasn't sure that they would figure it out. But when they unfurled the flag, the color guard, I just elbowed Howie and said, Howie, look. And I didn't tell him that I could have prevented it. You could have changed his game.

In hindsight, yeah. You could have said something, Rich. But my way of making up for it is for game three, when we came back to play in Toronto, I picked up an almanac and I did a note on all the flags that could be flown upside down and nobody would notice. Like in Japan, right? Yeah, yeah.

Japan was at the top. That's the best one. But that sort of helped diffuse the vitriol and the animosity. Yeah, yeah. Japan was at the top of the list. That's the best one. But that sort of helped diffuse the vitriol and the animosity. For sure. Yeah, yeah. So I was trying to make up for it, but I think I could have done a better job by just telling him, hey, captain. But, you know, as a journalist, you don't want to affect history, right?

You've got to sort of observe. Yeah, I was still a PR guy at the time. You might want to let it happen. That's right. It's like the guy who left the lens cap on the camera. Are you going to say something to the guy, or are you going to sort of see kind of what happens? Like, let's just see what happens there.

Okay, now we have Blue Jays PR man Richard Griffin here. So now you leave the Toronto Star for the, that was a difficult decision, I would imagine, right? To leave the Star for the Blue Jays. Yeah, it was difficult, especially in the timing, because they were trying to get rid of the older writers. It was a time where they were sort of trying to save money, basically. And so I was right between packages that they were offering,

so there was no package out there for me. But I decided that I needed to go anyway, because the season was going to start in like three or four weeks. And so I ended up with, you know, not as great a package as if I had decided to go three months earlier. Right. But I had nothing lined up three months earlier. That's the only problem. And as you guys found out today, I'm not done yet. Right, you're not done yet. I want to let people know, you were the third Toronto Star sports writer to win the Jack Graney Award. You joined Neil McCarl and Milt Dunnell, and they won in 87 and 88.

But the only one who also has a Robert Official Award in Cooperstown. Oh, to say that. The Jack Graney Award. Now, you know who that is, right? You know who Jack Graney was, Mike? Remind me. He was the first baseball player, really the first, to go to the broadcast booth from the field to the broadcast booth.

He was very, very good with Cleveland. Back when radio kind of like first started. Okay. Now I know. From London, Ontario. So the Jack Graney Award is a media award given out by the Canadian Baseball Association. Yeah, I think he just won an award at Cooperstown this year. That's right, he did.

For broadcast. For broadcast. The Ford Frick, part of the Ford Frick Award, is that it? Yeah. Okay, amazing. I don't think there's any tapes of him either. There's no, because if you could find some. Jack Graney?

Some Graney audio from. Graney audio, right? Literally. I like that. Okay, so now that we have Richard Griffin griffin with the blue jays here i've got questions from uh listeners some excited listeners mike lynch actually before i get to mike lynch my apologies brad hoffman writes in i just saw you're interviewing richard griffin i'd love to know if it was a tough adjustment for him the first year he stopped writing and got the jays gig

specifically with players like marcusoman. If I'm not mistaken he was one of many reporters who Stroman blocked on Twitter. So I wonder how he handled having to basically work with him once he got the Jays PR job. I guess if he doesn't want to specifically address Stroman, don't worry I'm going to make him, that's Mike talking, I would still be interested

to learn about the adjustment in general and when it comes to writing about the players one year and then having to work with many of the same players the next year. Before you get to that Mike Lynch did say I've really missed his articles in the Star since he left to be a Blue Jay. Give us what we all want to hear. The juicy details

on the Stroman exit at the trade deadline in 2019. So I turn it over to you Richard. You got Brad and Mike and many many others who had questions about Stroman. What say you? Well, that was one of the things that surprised me when they hired me is that Stroman was still there. And I knew that Ross Atkins would have trouble with that within the clubhouse.

And apparently he did. I mean, Stroman was not happy. Wouldn't talk to me that first spring training. He would do things, but only if somebody else asked him to do things, but that stemmed back to, like you said, he blocked me as a writer. Why did he block you? Uh, I think I said that after a quick May start, I forget what year it was. Uh, he was like five and one by the middle of May. And I said, I wrote a column saying, oh, it's a little early to call him an ace.

He's not an ace yet. He's, you know, like I said, given the history, there've been a lot of guys with quick starts. Roy Halladay has a history of being an ace until he gets to that. And then like he confronted me in the clubhouse, and Josh Donaldson did a play-by-play in front of all those laughing writers and players, and Donaldson did a play-by-play of our argument

until Stroman said, what, I can't be an ace because I'm not 6'7 and white? And I said, that's enough. Yeah, I said, that's enough. You're done. And I walked away. And that was the last time, basically, that we spoke until, you know, he said, I was good to you. I was good to your son. I talked to your son.

My son was in college. Like, it's not like he went up to a four-year-old and signed something for him and whatever. But the time when Stroh got named to the All-Star team in 2019, he did come over and spontaneously give me a hug. Okay. That was really nice. That was key. That was really nice.

That was key. But then when he got traded, you know, what happened behind closed doors will remain behind closed doors. But, you know, because media is still, like Major League Baseball called and said, hey, you can't do that. I said, we did that. They said, well, you know, we got a complaint from the writers. I said, great. I said, uh, slap me on the wrist. That's fine. And they did. And it was over, but you know, it wasn't pretty. He walked out, the writers had a chance to stop him. They didn't.

So it's not my fault, you know? Um, which is a far cry from being a writer to being a PR guy and the attitude that I've shown on both sides. You know, you really have to. It's the same game. It's a different angle that you're approaching it from. But, you know, guys like Kevin Pillar at spring training in 2019 took me aside and walked with me and said how important I was going to be. Nice.

You know, and so it was good. It worked out well until COVID hit in March of 2020. If there was Twitter around when Hebsey was at Spores Line, he would have been blocked by many a blue jay. For sure. And thank goodness Dave Steve didn't have Twitter. No, no, that's not true at all. See, the thing is that I think, like with anything else,

there has to be mutual respect. Sure. If the guy looks at you and says, this guy doesn't know anything about baseball, what does he know about baseball? That's one level. Number two level is he never played the game. So even if he knows baseball,

how much could he know if he never played? And three is he never played at this level. So there's sort of that, you know, and you have to be able to prove to them. I remember going up to Blue Jays coach John Sullivan and giving him trivia questions, and he didn't know the answer, right? He'd say, how do you know that? You're from Canada.

That type of early on. That mentality, yeah. So you've got to show them that you know your stuff, you know the game. And at that particular point, depending on who the guy is, you'll get that grudging respect, and then that way you can have a relationship. Just to follow up on that spring training of 2019, the first spring training that I was back in PR, I got to give credit to Ross because he did stand up and talk to Stroman, talk to the

players and then there was a funny story when I went up at the initial players meeting with the staff and everyone gives their little spiel. The medical department says what they can do for you and what not to do. And then they introduced, Shelly Duncan was a coach and he introduced me. And as I was walking up the aisle, he goes, Griff, I don't know how they ever hired you. I don't know why they ever hired you. And all the players are starting to laugh. He goes, I, I don't know how they ever hired you. I don't know why they ever hired you. And all the players are starting to laugh. He goes, I think it's so you wouldn't write about him.

Which is smart. That's good. All right. Now, Steve Cole, who I met at TMLX 11. I met his wife as well. I think she's got a photo with you. I got pictures taken with him. Love it.

He's a big fan of the program. He came over to me and asked if I would take a picture. Right. They love Hebsey. They love Toronto Mike. I could have charged them. I could have charged them. Love it. He's a big fan of the program. He came over to me and asked if I would take a picture. Right. They love Hebsey. They love Toronto Mike. I could have charged them. I could have charged them. How much would you charge for that?

Probably $25. Okay. And for a signature? I do it for $10. Holy smokes. Oh, do you? No, I don't. I'm just kidding.

But it's just funny because it's like, because it used to be that when before we had camera phones, you know, you would go and say, can I get your autograph on a piece of paper? Unless you're John Gallagher, but yes. What's that? before we had camera phones, you know, you would go and say, can I get your autograph on a piece of paper? Right, unless you're John Gallagher, but yes. What's that? John Gallagher always had a disposable camera with him,

like, since the 80s or whatever. So, anytime somebody passes away or something, John Gallagher's got these selfies with them, but they're from,

like, the 80s. It's because he had the disposable camera. So, he waits for someone to die and then he posts a picture of that,

but he doesn't post a picture of them while they're alive. Well, if something happens in the news, he will, but typically he waits until they die. Hey, I took a picture with them back in 1984. By the way, John Gallagher,

you don't have any John Gallagher stories for me, do you, Richard Griffin? I do, but I can't tell. I heard from him for the first time in a while, two days ago. He was Googling Brian Henderson because he was good friends with Brian Henderson, Henny.

And he came to a Toronto Mike's article where I got a great note from Henny where he talked about update on his life and everything and John Gallagher just wrote me this really sweet note from Halifax or somewhere in Nova Scotia where he was just he was reading it and thinking about me I used to produce a show he had with Peter Gross called Gallagher and Gross Save the

World and it was a really nice little note from John Gallagher he might be missing the big smoke from his new home there okay enough great John Gallagher and John Gallagher and Gross Save the World. And it was a really nice little note from John Gallagher. He might be missing the big smoke from his new home there. Okay, enough great John Gallagher. And John Gallagher, a big Montreal fan himself. Yeah, for sure. I've dealt with him and he was at the first couple of spring trainings I was at. He would always

rent a Mustang convertible and just cruise around all hours of the day and night and he'd always have three or four women in the car with him. That's John Gallagher. Absolutely. John Gallagher. Can I tell you about the time he got kicked out of Maple Leaf Gardens?

He shows up. He's got no socks and shoes. It's like the spring. Did he get an Usher fired or something? Yeah, but he's got no shoes on, and he's got one of those big plastic tumblers. It's not a clear tumbler. He doesn't leave

You don't know what's inside of it. And there's, you know, ice is clicking and clicking in it and you can smell it. But he's been open about this. And he's just going to he's going to walk through the Wood Street gates

like he normally would because he's got a press pass and everyone knows who he is. And he's John Gallagher. And John Gallagher's got this big and he's got no socks and shoes on. Yeah. And one of the guys stops him

and he goes, you know, I'm with the bread box. That kind of thing. And one of the guys stops him, kind of, and he goes, I, you know, I, you know, I'm watching this going, oh man. And then the next morning he's on Q107 and he's fabulous.

Like nothing ever happened. Anyway, we call them functional, functional. Anyway, Steve Cole, Steve Cole, he has an alternative Twitter account

called Expos in the Wild. It's at Expos Wild, which is strictly random photos of people he runs across wearing Expos in the Wild. It's at Expos Wild, which is strictly random photos of people he runs across wearing Expos gear, and he's happy to say it's got Hebsey and Richard Griffin on his feed over the years. This leads to his question.

Do you think, both of you, but we'll start with Richard, do you think Major League Baseball will ever return to Montreal? I think that at one point, when I spoke to John McHale Jr. during the exhibition games, when 100,000 people were going to two exhibition games in Montreal, John McHale was very confident and very positive that something could happen.

But when they got to the idea of splitting a season between Tampa and Montreal, I started to doubt. And then when expansion, you realize that expansion teams are going to be over a billion dollars. The game is healthy. The game is making a lot of money for teams. But that initial outlay, and they didn't want to franchise an existing franchise transferring,

which would have been great for Tampa Bay to completely move to Montreal. And ownership was there, and, you know, those guys had enough money to support a transferred team and to start it up and to build a stadium. But once it became an expansion thing and they showed less interest i've not given up on it but i've become more negative on it on it ever happening again hebsey do you think uh mlb ever returns to montreal now i wish i wish i could say yes but i think over the years i've noticed that a lot of people that had the clout and the finances to take on an ownership role in Montreal,

a few of them have decided that they wanted to, would rather be part of ownership groups of other professional sports teams, not in Montreal, for example, right? Right. And so you need, you got to have local, you got to have local people. You got to have the help of government. And there's just so many layers to it. You got to have the stadium and where, I mean, all that stuff.

And unfortunately, like Rich said before, it's been many years since there was a team in Montreal. And the more years you go without having a team, the less likely it is that you're going to be able to revitalize it because because the children of the fans of the Montreal Expos are not going to be nearly as enthusiastic let's get a team back in Montreal right so and let's face it you know the Canadian dollar man is you know is that was a huge factor. I think one of the factors that's underrated is the animosity of Bud Seeley when he was commissioner towards John McHale,

who helped move the Braves from Milwaukee to Atlanta. Out of his town, right. And he never came out and said it, but that Montreal franchise was not one of his favorites because John McHale was there. And so there was a lot of wasted years in terms of running that franchise into the ground between the strike in 94 and 2004 when they tried to contract the team in 02

along with the Minnesota Twins and the Minnesota fan base and government wouldn't allow it. They couldn't just do Montreal. wouldn't allow it so that they couldn't just do Montreal. And then it became such a scam with Loria buying the team so that he could go eventually to Florida and John Henry could go to Boston. What about those Puerto Rico years? The only way to do that is for MLB to buy the franchise and not give a rat's ass about it and run it into

the ground so that North America thinks Montreal is not capable of supporting a major league team. When if somebody told you that Great Lakes Brewery didn't like this batch of beer, and then tried to sell it as a product that you should have in your fridge, that's not going to work either. But Great Lakes Brewery would never say that because every batch of beer is the same quality and the best. They have good quality control over there. Shout out to Mike Lackey, the chief brewer.

Richard, though, and this is specific for you now from the same Steve Cole who has another one after this. This guy was really excited you're coming on, as many are actually. Thank you for doing this, by the way. This has been amazing. Although the Jays' front office would publicly say all the right things,

again, this is actually Steve Cole talking, everybody, but although the Jays' front office would publicly say all the right things and likely support Montreal publicly, what do you think their actual private position behind closed door would be on Montreal expansion? That's not a loaded question at all, Richard. Let's go. No, I agree with that.

I don't think that it's as enthusiastic as it might have been previously. I mean, the Blue Jays are in a good place as Canada's national team. I mean, from the time that I left the Expos until now, Quebec has come a long way in terms of supporting the Blue Jays. It helps when Vlad Jr. homers to win a game. Montreal-born Vlad Jr., son of the great Expo. But I think privately, and it's not anything that we would have discussed in my role with the Blue Jays,

but just the idea I have of what they would think of it now, I'm sure that they wouldn't be enthusiastically supporting a bid. Very interesting. Okay, now that you've been warmed up here, time for real talk. A couple of months ago, or a number of months ago, this is from Steve again. Shannon Curley was the subject of a big Sportsnet feature. She was portrayed as one of the Jays' secret

recruiting weapons and a crucial member of the staff with respect to player relations. A few months after that big splash, we learn that she suddenly disappeared and is no longer with the club. Time for real talk.

Was she lured away elsewhere? Did her big publicity splash cause the knives to come out? Well, was she on the ropes and participating in the big feature in an attempt to save her job? In other words, what happened to Shannon Curley? I think it was a personal decision. I haven't spoken to Shannon since she left. She was a huge part of what was going on in the clubhouse and in terms of recruitment. She was on every conference call it's nothing new, but Shannon became the face of that.

And there are players who will say that, you know, my wife was on the conference call, I was on the conference call. We spoke to Ross, we spoke to Mark Shapiro, and Shannon Curley convinced us that this organization really cares about players and their families, and it's the truth. But it's not anything new. It's not anything that started with Shannon.

She was a big part of it. I'm sure they're going to try and continue it, but she was in every recruiting video that was sent out to agencies and free agents, and I don't think there's anything underhanded or nefarious or to be looked at. I think it's a personal decision. So there's no Game of Thrones or whatever type thing. No knives or anything. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, right. That was the name of the mystery film there with James Bond there doing his several words. Yeah, it was pretty good. We watched it as a family. It was great. Have you seen the new one? Daniel Craig? the mystery film there with James Bond there doing his several words accent. Yeah, it was pretty good. We watched it as a family. It was great. And have you seen the new one?

Daniel Craig? Yeah, Daniel Craig. That's the name I'm looking for. But they have a new one. Have you seen it yet? It takes place in, I want to say, where is that, Hawaii? But there's a new one that just came out.

I saw it promoted on the Golden Globes. Glass Onion. That's the name I'm looking for, Glass Onion. Okay. I want to shout out an FOTM who helped me buy these microphones and set up this studio when I decided I should be a podcaster

because maybe one day I'll get a PR pass for the Blue Jays from Richard Griffin. And I forgot to ask for one. But okay. Setting up this studio, I was assisted by a guy named Andrew Stokely. Andrew Stokely does the audio

for Sportsnet presentations of Blue Jay games at the dome. He's a good guy. Listeners of the program know him. And Stokely just wrote in when he heard you were coming on. He said, Richard is great.

It'll be weird. Not seeing him daily at the dome or on the road. So Andrew's going to miss you. That's much appreciated, but, uh, I'm trying not to go too far, as we've already discussed. As discussed, that'll be the big announcement.

When you're ready to make the big announcement on the next move, you come back here. So final moments here. I've loved this. Hebsey, how was this episode? What do you think? Oh, fantastic. We didn't get into enough baseball.

Real deep baseball stuff. Unless Richard has to go in this last five to ten minutes, this is your chance to ask any questions. This is the profile. It's his first time on, so you can't cram everything into it. Well, you know one thing that I'd like to clear up is that I'm not like a dinosaur who doesn't believe in any statistics or anything like that.

Analytics? Analytics. I did in the early 90eties predict that the nerds would take over the game. Uh, the, the, that somebody would win five fantasy leagues in a row and then become a general manager because they think they're smarter than everybody else. But the, the factor that doesn't go into that is that these are all human beings you're dealing with, not just numbers. Right. And when I was, when I started with the Expos in 73, I had my own scoring system. No computers, but I had my own scoring system.

And before I started traveling, I'd score every game, every pitch off radio with Dave Van Horn. And home games, I'd score. And I became Jim Fanning, the GM. I became his arbitration guru. So I was producing stats, specialized stats, long before anyone else. So I get insulted personally when people assault me and compare me to, I won't say Bob Elliott, but to dinosaurs of the game who don't believe in that stuff.

Because I was one of the early ones, but I just wanted to clear that up. No, I'm glad. This is your chance. Everybody's listening. This is your chance. Hebsey, anything that you were thinking on your drive here for Hebsey on Sports, you're thinking, oh, I want to make sure I ask Richard about this guy, or this moment, or anything, want to make sure I ask Richard about this guy or this moment or anything

in time to train that swamp. No. Not really, no. I, you know, always enjoyed Rich's work. But I have to, you know, expound on what he was saying there. If you see the player play and see the situations, right, and then look at the stats and go oh yeah six for ten but two of those were bullets that were hit right at the right fielder and now with

now with no shift taking place etc etc and the game being different so it's much different to put stats together much of it based on what you actually saw with your own eyes right and can quantify versus someone that just you know a naked stat like in his last 11 games he's what or just some number somewhere that somebody can easily pull out i used to say this i used to know more about baseball than 99.9 of the people right because i read and i did stats and i and i just i i took as much in as i possibly could observed and now i know like now 99 of the people who like baseball know more than me. And another point there, Hebsey, is that every year when I vote for the Hall of Fame,

I've seen all of those players play. Every single one for the last 10 years, I've seen them in person play. So I have an opinion that goes beyond just war and f war and o war and p or whatever it is and and like that makes a difference huge difference carlos delgado should he be in the hall of fame uh i was surprised that he wasn't that he didn't last on the ballot uh more than a year i voted for him um but my theory on that is by the time he got to New York and played with the Mets and like the Hall of Fame, the annual awards, there's only two voters from every city. So it's fair. But all the retired writers that have a Hall of Fame vote are in the New York

area. A lot of them are in the New York area. They saw Carlos Delgado at the tail end of his career, and he was not a Hall of Fame player at that point. But from what I saw in Toronto and when he went to Florida, he's definitely a Hall of Fame player. Richard Griffin, no longer the Blue Jays director of baseball media, but now an FOTM, which is even better. And you get beer and you get pasta. And I got to shout out very quickly, Sammy Cohn Real Estate,

because if you have any real estate questions, Sammy Cohn's your guy. And as Hebsey knows, because he's longtime friends of Jake Gold, former manager of the Watchmen, Sammy Cohn is a hell of a drummer, right? Sure is. Hebsey, that man can drum.

Absolutely. You know, if he's anywhere near as good a real estate guy as he is a drummer, man, he's going to have a fantastically successful career, and you should call him. Top 1% of realtors in Toronto. So it is Sammy.Cohn at ProperlyHomes.ca. Thank you, Richard Griffin. We're going to get a photo afterwards, so don't speed away,

and I've got to get you your Great Lakes beer and your lasagna. But I loved this. Thanks for making the visit, buddy. Thanks for inviting me for the 12th time. I know, yeah. On that note, what took so long? You couldn't do this when you were at the Blue Jays? You had to wait until your independence? He's busy. I tried to get five golf games in with

the guy. He's right. I think I've been asking for a decade. I told you last year at spring training, Mike, I couldn't even get in to see him. Couldn't get an audience with the man. I'm the one who asked for Hebsey to be here, too. So you're the one we can blame. If you didn't like Hebsey on this program, it's Richard's fault. That's what we're telling you.

But that and that brings us to the end of our 1187th show. You can follow me on Twitter. I'm at Toronto Mike. Richard Griffin, remind me what your Twitter handle is. R Griffin. What is it now, Rich? At R Griffin Baseball. At R Griffin Baseball.

No, not Griffin. Oh, just Griff. R Griff Baseball. Now that we're friends, I can call you Griff? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. It's Griff. All right. Can I call you Mike? Yeah, of course. But Toronto Mike, of course. Hebzy Man is at Hebsey man on Twitter he's a great follow as

well our friends at Great Lakes Brewery are at Great Lakes beer Palma pasta is at Palma pasta recycle my electronics are at EPRA underscore Canada Ridley funeral home are

at Ridley FH Canna Cabana are at Canna Cabana underscore and Sammy Cone real estate is that Sammy Cone it's K-O-H-N by the way for C Cabana underscore. And Sammy Cone Real Estate. Is that Sammy Cone? It's K-O-H-N, by the way, for Cone. It's not like David Cone.

See you all next week when my special guest is Gord Miller. Cause everything is rosy and green Well, I've been told that there's a sucker born every day But I wonder who Yeah, I wonder who Maybe the one who doesn't realize There's a thousand shades of green Cause I know that's true. Yes, I do. I know it's true.

Yeah. I know it's true. How about you? Oh, they're picking up trash and they're putting down roads. And they're brokering stocks. The class struggle explodes. And they're brokering stocks, the class struggle explodes And I'll play this guitar just the best that I can Maybe I'm not and maybe I am

But who gives a damn because Everything is coming up rosy and green Yeah, the wind is cold but the smell of snow warms me today. And your smile is fine, it's just like mine, it won't go away. Cause everything is rosy and gray. Well, I've kissed you in France And I've kissed you in Spain And I've kissed you in places I better not name

And I've seen the sun go down On Chaclacour But I like it much better Going down on you Yeah you know that's true Because everything is coming up Rosy and green Yeah, the wind is cold

But the smell of snow Warms us today And your smile is fine And it's just like mine And it won't go away Because everything is rosy now Everything is rosy, yeah Everything is rosy and gray Thank you.