Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Rob Bowman: Toronto Mike'd Podcast Episode 1830

Episode Date: January 7, 2026

In this 1830th episode of Toronto Mike'd, Mike chats with Grammy Award-winning professor of ethnomusicology and a music writer Rob Bowman about Muscle Shoals, Stax Records, Jackie Shane and so much more. Toronto Mike'd is proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, Ridley Funeral Home, Nick Ainis, and RecycleMyElectronics.ca. If you would like to support the show, we do have partner opportunities available. Please email Toronto Mike at [e-mail].

This is Robbohm and Grammy Award winner. Happy to be on Toronto Mike's podcast. What did Chuck D say? Who gives an F about a goddamn Grammy? If I want a Grammy, I'd bring it with me everywhere. I'm a Toronto, I'd bring it with me everywhere. I'm a Toronto, I want to get a city love. My city love me back for my city love.

Welcome to episode 1,830 of Toronto-Miked, an award-winning podcast, but it's not a Grammy, proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery. Order online at Great Lakesbeer.com for free local home delivery in the GTA. Palma Pasta. Enjoy the taste of fresh homemade Italian pasta and entrees from Palma Pasta in Mississauga and Oakville.

Visit palma Pasta.com. for more. Fusion Corp's own, Nick Aini's. He's the host of Building Toronto Skyline and Building Success, two podcasts that you ought to listen to. Recycle MyElectronics.ca. Committing to our planet's future means properly recycling our electronics of the past.

And Redley Funeral Home, pillars of the community since 1921. Joining me today, returning to Toronto Mike, it's Rob Bowman. Welcome back, Rob. Glad to be here. Do you remember, Rob, your Toronto mic debut?

I do. It was with Daniel Tate. We were a copp promoting the Flyer Vault, a book the two of us had written about Toronto concert history. Loved the Flyer Vault. Love chatting about it with you. And that's the book that made me aware of the James Brown performance at the Mimicombo on Lakeshore. Wouldn't you like a time machine to go back to that?

So I read a lot about the mimic combo Because it's not the mimic combo anymore But apparently like there was a bowling alley on one floor And make a roller rink on another And artists like James Brown are performing It sounds like this magical place It's hard to believe it was like a five minute bike ride From where we sit right now

And I'm sure it sounded like a barn And nobody complained I mean I talk to people who are at the Beatles shows May Believe Gardens And they're talking about how much they loved it And then you hear about, like, the audio for the Beatles at Maple Leaf Gardens. You know what? That audio is phenomenal.

Seriously, have you heard about the tape? Well, tell me about the tape, because all I've heard is that it was, like, the same public address announced speakers they might use for Leaf Games. It was. That's what they used for concerts in those days. But somebody at the foresight to tap into that system, if you will, and get a recording that's live off the stage direct from the mics. So, yes, you've got a lot of audience, but not nearly the kind of audience noise that you get with audience tapes that exist of a lot of Beatles shows.

The other thing with AI now, I've heard this tape treated with AI where you can minimize the audience. And you minimize the audience, and the Beatles sound like an amazing rock and roll band driving the house crazy, even though most people in the house couldn't hear it. But they still cared at that point and could really play. No, they didn't, they couldn't, they didn't care because everybody was screaming so loud. No, I'm saying they still cared. No, they still cared. By 66, they had given up.

Right. And they were performing live, but they realized nobody could hear them. And so they didn't really care what they sounded like. But 65, they were still driving hard. It's amazing tape. And that was the only, I mean, they did back to back that day, if I remember the history. All three times they're here. They played two shows back to back.

Okay. Interesting. Okay. So already right off the hop, we're getting to the, some great chat here. I got more Beatles shows than virtually any other city in North America. I think there's a, maybe my ignorance is showing through, Rob, but I always thought maybe that was,

I thought the opposite might be true, but you know. Of course I know. You know, we got six shows. Montreal probably got two, literally. New York would have had six, obviously. And LA probably, although, you know, I'm not sure. They did two in the Hollywood Bowl, 64, 265, I'm not sure about

Hollywood Bowl, I'm looking at your t-shirt right now. Oh, yeah, it's Johnny Mitchell at the Hollywood Bowl. Johnny Mitchell at the... That's cool, man. I was there last year. It's amazing. Okay. Joni Anderson played the Purple Onion. I talked to one of the founders of the Purple Onion on this show. She played there a few times as well, several other

Yorkville haunts. Yeah. John Anderson, later Mitchell, was a big part of the Yorkville scene for a little bit. Absolutely. And who... Another time. machine I'd like to have to go see. Well, you know, I hope we cover a lot of the time machine. So, again, you visited with Daniel Tate, because you guys wrote the, the Flyer Vault.

You're still following Daniel's new career? I'm aware of Daniel's new career, but it's not like I'm part of that or, you know. You're not a member of the Integrity T.O. And again, I bump into Daniel now and then, and Daniel Tate and FOTM and I love the Flyer vault. But I did not see that career pivot happening. Like, I didn't see it when he was visiting with you that. I wouldn't have seen it either.

So shout out to Daniel Tate. That's a good opportunity. I can promote that maybe Daniel Tate's Integrity T.O. will be mentioned with Ed Keenan tomorrow. So Ed Keenan of the Toronto Star visits tomorrow. We got Rob Bowman here. The last time I saw you was at the launch of Gary Topps book. Oh, right, right.

In the Red Room at the Masonic Temple. Yeah, year ago December. Yeah. And that was cool. Oh, Gary is such a game changer in his sense. It's been a huge part of my life since, you know, 70, 72 or three. I was going to New Yorker before that I was going to the Roxy when I was like a teenager in high school. So Gary's career in my life have paralleled each other.

I've known him for decades and helped promoter shows when I was at CKLN as well as when I was records on wheels. We have a symbiotic relationship. It's been great. I admire so much what he did. No, you and I both, and Colin Brunton, go ahead. I wrote a blur for the back of the book. Right, and I got a copy of that book. I think that was my, I moderated that panel discussion at the Red Room at the Masonic

Temple, and I was paid with a book. Ah, there you go. Which is more valuable than anything. Have you seen that Nash the Slash documentary? I haven't. I helped Colin a little bit with a couple things, but I have not seen it yet. I know Rob Proust did some work on that, too, and he's visiting me next week. Maybe I'll find out if he got to see it, but, no, I haven't seen.

seen it yet either. Well, not to exaggerate, just, you know, in terms of work, Colin asked me questions. I did a few things for him, but I was never involved in the actual filming or anything like that. You're not going to win a Grammy for that one. I'm supportive. I really am glad he's done it. I love Nash. I saw Nash many times when I was young, saw the first FM show Nash ever played. You want to drop by every week, Rob? I feel like there's a lot of ground I want to cover with you. We're not going to be able to do it in one episode here. Nash's brother used to play baseball with me, too. Really? Yeah, small world. Absolutely, a small world.

Are you still affiliated with York University? Yes and no. I no longer teach full time. I'm still supervising some PhD students as they're finishing up, and I'll be forever a professor emeritus, which just means I have access to, you know, library access to lay computer services and so on, and my research still try to brag about.

And you'll always have access to your York University email address. Of course, yeah. That's the most important thing. That's forever. Can you tell me, because I'm a dummy, you're a professor of ethnomusicology. Can you just tell me in a nutshell what exactly that means, ethnology? All right. How to make this quick.

You don't have to make it quick. I hate the name. You know, it starts when Germans in the 1880s, some of them began to think, hey, it's really interesting to study all these, you know, field recording tapes that various people have made in sub-Saharan Africa and try to understand this music. And when they were doing that, they were, you know, transcribing it into sheet music, you know, same way, you know, Western art music's written five-line, four spaces. And some of the smarter ones began to realize this tells us nothing. This tells us virtually nothing about music.

What we really need to do is be studying the culture and understand how the music fits in with the culture, how the music embodies social meaning. And they adopted the unfortunate name, ethno-mysicology, as an ethnic, musicology. And let's face it, we're the ethnic as anybody else anywhere in the planet. But that's the name that stuck. That's why I don't like the name. But the idea of understanding music, not just a sound unto itself, but as cultural expression to me is so important. And that would apply as equally to Mozart, as to James Brown, as to the public enemy, as to the pygmythi that a cherry rainforest. So it's an approach that's the way of thinking about music and I buy into it wholeheartedly.

Love it. Okay. And you were formerly the director of York University's graduate program in ethnomusicology and musicology. And now maybe off the top, how did you win that Grammy? Oh, God. I've been nominated for six. Six Grammy nominations. Yeah. How do you win? You work on a big project and hopefully you do really good work and you hope enough people who won't realize that. I mean, I'm, you know, it was obviously delighted when I won it was a big deal and it certainly you know gets you more work drives your price up and people get excited about it the night i won i was told you will always be introduced from now on as grammy award winning rob moment and it's actually true that does happen most of the time when i'm introduced

but that doesn't mean it's the best work i ever did some of the ones i lost i think were just as good and there's even a couple that i wasn't nominated for i thought were better than things i was nominated for. So it's a bit of a crapshoot. It depends on who's on the committees, who's got what kind of biases in terms of music they like, approach they prefer. Some people

think that I go over the top, meaning I go into too much depth and that is, you know... And those people are wrong. Well, they're welcome to their opinion. I believe in depth. I really look for other writers to go as deep as possible. So, you know, that hurts me sometimes.

But then it helps me. I mean, the one I won was 47,000 words. You know, that's half a book. Okay, so which project earned you that grand. The Complete Stax Volt, Soul Singles, Volume 3, 1972 to 75. It's a 10 CD box set that I also co-produced. So I have, like, I know I have a few topics I want to hit with you.

Firstly, you do have at least an hour, like starting now. Yeah, sure. Good. I'm not going to let you leave, okay, Rob. And I have a few topics I want to hit. now obviously we can't go into major depth on all of them but we can shed out the projects where people can find that depth that you were involved with and then i have like emails that came in and notes that came in when i said you were returning and we're going to touch on some of that some of your

former students were lauding you this is good okay lauding is a good thing and so we're going to cover a lot of ground and some stuff we don't even have on the agenda will show up here but i thought maybe we'll start with a little song and then talk about this subject are you ready for a jam You ready? Let's go for it. Great song. I don't hurt. Very best girl of mine.

Yeah. Go to straighten up, baby. Stop that cheating in love. Rob about me You're light about Louis too Oh no Oh no Rob Bowman name

That's name that tune Because I love, oh no You got me feeling so bad I don't know what to do. Both of them were very good friends of mine. I spoke at Rufus' funerals. Me, B.B. King and the mayor of Memphis. Oh, wow. And I was just invited to Carla's 80th birthday party in Memphis.

How's Carla doing? Carla's doing well. You know, she's performing at times. She's happy. She's in a good place. Yeah, I saw her, last time I saw, I guess, about a year and a half ago in my four-hour stacks documentary

I worked on Premier in New York. Okay, kudos off, let me just... Okay, we're going to talk about stacks here. and promote the projects where people can dive, get the deep dive. But I've got to say, that HBO series on Stacks, which you're heavily involved in, you're going to tell us in a moment how, but you're also a talking head on this thing.

We can see Rob Bowman. That was exceptional. I was really well done. Jamila Wignott, the director, was exceptional. That is the word for it. Now, the thing's based on my book. So, you know, it starts with the work I started doing years ago. They also used a number of interviews that I had done with people,

who had passed away, because I have hundreds and hundreds of interviews with people related to stacks. Again, I conducted initially for my book and then for liner notes and so on. I was also a co-executive director, no, co-executive producer. And, of course, I did hours of interviews, and I'm in all four episodes quite a bit. So it's, you know, probably I weren't the closest with Jimmy Love anybody on the film. And I think she did an excellent job. I mean, it's just, obviously, you know, but we're going to tell the listenership.

So, firstly, the listenership needs to... So tell us a bit about the book that led to the HBO series, and then people need to hunt this down and see it as soon as possible. But there's a reason I chose to play that specific song. Like that, according to you, and that's the song that changes the destiny of Stacks Records. 2,000%. By the way, the film won a Peabody Award. And so did my Jackie Shane film the same day.

But the book... We're going to get to Jackie Shane. The book's called Soulsville, USA, The Story of Stacks Records. I started work on that when I was doing my Ph.D. in Memphis, spent 12 years, not on the Ph.D., but 12 years on the book, which is much different than the actual dissertation. The book's done extremely well, was inducted into Blues Hall of Fame, inspired a number of groups to get back together, inspired a reissue series of over 75 stack sets, led to three films, one in France, an American film called Respect Yourself and Finds. Finally, this last statement, which would probably be the last statement ever on Stacks in the film world, the four-hour special, HBO on the States crave in Canada. Obviously, my Grammy was tied to one of those box sets on Stax, which was related to my book.

It also led to the building of the Stax Museum of American Soul Music. I wrote the original vision for that museum, 110 pages, 10-point type, every exhibit, what the audio should be, the video, the narrative, and the memorabilia. So all of this comes out of one person deciding that there's eight books in Motown, nobody had done anything in Stacks, somebody needed to do something about this. I was in the right place at the right time in Memphis. Rufus Thomas was the first person I interviewed. And yes, because I love you with the first record that Jim Stewart,

the STI of Stax, had success with. And if you will, set the tone for all the subsequent records by people like the Marquise, Otis Redding, William Bell, Booker T and the M. G's, Albert King. Sam and Dave. Sam and Dave. Johnny Taylor, Mabel John. Later, the staple singer's Isaac Hayes, the emotions, the dramatics. We could keep going and never forget Rantz Allen.

Like there's that moment where, right, absolutely, love all of it. But there's that moment where, you know, you mentioned Jim Stewart, not to be confused with Jimmy Stewart. That was another guy. But Jim Stewart's like, he's into, I guess it was like Western country? What was it? Jim was a country fiddler. And, you know, he started a label in emulation of what Sam Phillips had done at Sun.

Jim was working in a bank. It's not to be more fun running a record label? Well, absolutely. And so naturally, he started recording country and pop. Problem was, he either couldn't find an artist or didn't know how to make a good country or pop record. All of the country and pop stuff they put out, it was about 11, 12 singles were terrible. One exception, one great rockabilly record. he moved from his first couple of studios to renting a cinema, an abandoned movie theater, the capital theater,

and a neighbor that was turning from white to black. So who's knocking at his door? Black local citizens who wanted to sing, play, and one DJ, Rufus Thomas, has already DJ, WDIA, the first black radio station ever, by the way, started in 1948. Rufs had come there pretty early. But now we're talking about it in 1960. Rufus is knocking the door, so I hear you all recording. Well, me and my daughter have a song.

And he plays that for Jim Stewart, and Jim thinks, what the heck, let me try it. And, of course, not only is a great record, and, by the way, it's Booker T. Jones on baritone sax. We think of Booker T as a keyboard player. That's his first recording. He's playing baritone sax. He could play anything.

Anyway, with Rufus has a DJ. He got a lot of local promotion from his show, and other DJs, and the record took off, led to Atlantic Records wanting to distribute stacks, which leads to all sorts of greatness. All sorts of greatness, and also, because I'm always interested, maybe to a fault, how the sausage gets made. And what I like is that insight into the fact that Jim Stewart,

you can call him a visionary and what you need in stacks, and you mentioned Otis Redding, and there's more, of course, lots more, but like not a great businessman. Not a great businessman, and he himself would never have called himself a visionary. You know, Jim basically says he stumbled into it, and, you know, and sort of a light bulb went off before Rufus's recording. He knew nothing about black music except what did I say by Ray Charles?

But when Rufus's recording started selling, Tim began to realize, this makes sense, rather than going bankrupt. And he quite quickly became not only enamored with, but I'd say obsessed with black music. There's a famous story what one engineer said to him, You know, if we do this to the bridge, we can sell a lot more to a pop audience on some particular record. And Jim slapped his knee and said, I don't give a damn if we ever sell a record to a white

person. Jim became so deeply into what Stacks meant as a black record company making black music for a black audience. The irony is, his later partner, Al Bell, who was black, really wanted to cross over and get a white audience as well. So between the two of them, they covered all the main. in interesting and very erotic ways. And then as we follow the story that you're telling

and watching the doc specifically, suddenly you realize how Martin Luther King Jr. plays a role in all this and the assassination of this man. And it all intertwines. It's just, I can't recommend it highly enough. Well, the documentary really makes that point in a way that so many other docs avoid. Obviously, Dr. Martin Luther King,

King was an incredibly important individual. And if you were black, should be now, too, but certainly in the 60s, Dr. King, symbolic meaning of him and what he did for black Americans in terms of the civil rights movement. And obviously, he isn't the only person. There's many, many, many important people in the civil rights movement, but it was a symbolic head for a lot of people. And Dr. King, of course, was deeply involved in Memphis, before he was assassinated in Memphis because of the garbage strike, which was black sanitation workers who were working

in very unsafe conditions. One had been eaten literally by one of the trucks. The way it was set up, he had literally been eaten by it and, of course, killed. And so they went on strike for better equipment, better pay, and so on. Dr. King came to the city, marched with them, and then was assassinated in Memphis. Many of the black artists and employees at Stacks participated in those marches were heavily invested in what Dr. King was all about.

And in fact, Dr. King would always stay at Lorraine Motel, which is now an amazing civil rights museum. Lorraine Motel was the hangout place for everybody at Stacks. Literally after sessions, they'd go down to Lorraine for Mr. Bailey's fried chicken, and that pool, Memphis is hot. That pool was important. And they'd hang out, swim in, laughing. talking about records.

Steve Cropper and Eddie Floyd wrote Knock on Wood at the Lorraine Motel. Steve Cropper brought Wilson Pickett midnight hour at the Lorraine Motel. So the Lorraine Motel was a center of black culture and the civil rights moments always where Dr. King stayed and where he was unfortunately killed.

And it all tied together brilliantly in this dog. Can't recommend it enough. But you mentioned Steve Cropper. So I was going to ask you about Steve because he just passed away. but I have a note in here from Len Lumber's, who might be better known to the listenership as guest number 1,000 on Toronto Mike.

This is the guy who was number 1,000. All right. Number 1,000. You got a record here, like Austin Matthews. Yeah, right. You know, for a brief moment in time, the Leafs record for single season goals was 69, and the overall record was 420.

Just think about that for a minute while I read. That was for a brief moment in time, and that was a true story. Steve Crawper, this is from Len Lumber's. Steve Cropper just died. About a quarter century ago, Britain's Mojo magazine named him the second best guitarist ever.

A couple of years ago, Rolling Stone put Marvin's What's Going On and Stevie's music in the Key of Life in their top four records of all time. Black music is as powerful a commercial force as it's ever been, but will its forefathers, its 60s and 70s legends,

always retain stature? Do younger people get that kind of music? This is a question for you, Rob Bowman, from Len Lumber's. Well, you know, we're referring to younger people with kind of monolithic. We have a very stratified society. You know, when I was teaching,

which I just stopped last year, I'd have young students who were, you know, totally just into hip-hop. I'd have young students totally into electronica. I'd have young students totally into nothing after 1973. In other words, totally about the 60s and early 70s. They really were stratified.

And some, of course, cross over all sorts of boundaries, but a lot of people would pigeonhole themselves in one thing or into another. So for some young students, young human beings, yeah, this stuff will live forever, just as much as Mozart and Bach and Beethoven still are alive in people's minds

and known for their great creations. But, you know, for others, it'll be a lot less important. Think about how big Taylor Swift is right now. Now, you go down the street, ask 100 people if they can name four Taylor Swift songs and probably 30 could which tells you something about

the stratification and the number of if you will channels and I mean delivery channels of music that are available so nobody hears at all anymore and even huge huge artists and Taylor is the biggest of them all

at the moment maybe the biggest ever they're not known Their name's known, but their music is not known by the majority of people. It's a weird situation. Back in the Beatles Day, and they were not as well known as Taylor. They were not as popular as Taylor, as weird as that is the seem, but everybody knew the records because there was only one delivery channel, AM Radio. And even when there was two AM and FM, most people knew most big artists,

not the case anymore. So why is it that you make the statement that Taylor Swift is bigger than the Beatles were? Is it just because the world has doubled in size? That's a big part of it. Shear numbers, sheer dollar figures. It's unlike anything anyone's ever seen before. Well, I was just re-watched. Where did I share this?

Maybe it was actually with my daughter who just took a train back to Montreal to go to McGill, and I was chatting with her. I just re-watched the Pearl Jam 20 documentary by Cameron Crow, because I'm a big Pearl Jam fan. And I own the VHS. It's around the corner, but it had been the long time, and I just streamed it again, just watch it.

And they're talking to Eddie Vedder, and he's talking about how, and it was going, he was talking about 2004. I know you probably know where I'm going here. But he said this sentence, I only watched this again the other day. He said,

it was about Ticketmaster. We need to take, we need to fight Ticketmaster. We need to take on Ticketmaster because they're asking our fans to pay $30 to see their favorite band, okay? And I went to the inflation calculator

because 2004, 30 is not 20, 26, 30. And it was almost double. It was like $58 in today's dollars. So we have a band that went to war against Ticketmaster because they didn't want their fans to have to cop up $58, $226 to go see, you know, Pearl Jam at the Scotia Bank Arena, for example. Think about that. It's a war of Pearl Jam lost, unfortunately.

I wish they'd been able to win it. But, of course, Ticketmaster, especially partnered with Live Nation, controls so many of the venues. It's virtually impossible for a big band to not tour. with Ticketmaster selling tickets. Now, terms of the ticket price, ticket prices, we all know, have gotten way out of hand, exploded.

Now, the justification for that was that. CD stopped selling. Napster, which, of course, is big late 90s, very early 2000s, you know, 2000s, musical suddenly was free. So artists were saying, okay, well, we can't make money with our recordings. We have to make it live.

But, of course, it's like sports salaries. it's now become a bit of an ego thing. Well, you know, so-and-so went out there and made X-millions, you know, and they're selling tickets for the top price at 350. Well, we're more important than them. We've got to go out and sell them for 450. Right. And you've got the Stone selling things, you know, pit tickets for 660 U.S.,

but Beyonce, $1,500 for being in the Bay section. And, you know, the unfortunate thing, it's kind of like the world. World Series tickets here. Right. There are people who have the money and we'll pay it. And in some ways, I can't blame them. They want to go to something and they have the money. But because of the insane income inequality that we experienced in our culture,

which has got so much worse since the Reagan years, that's when the divide started and now it's unbelievably, you know, gulfed in the middle. Because of that, your average person cannot afford to go to two of these. shows a year. When I was a kid, I'd go to three shows a week, sometimes four, everything at Massey Hall, everything at what was in the O'Keefe Center. Now I think they're calling on Meridian, but it could have changed. It could have changed yet again. You know, and everything at Maple Leaf Gardens, it was doable as a teenager with part-time jobs. Now you're a kid. You want to go see Beyonce or Taylor Swift or if you're into older stuff, the Stones? Whoa. But you're

naming some big bands. I'm telling you, because I have a nine-time. year old daughter. I can tell you Hillary Duff tickets are unattainable. Name me a couple of big Hillary Duff jams. At least you're mentioning Beyonce, like these are at least these are like big, like, Indiana, right? No. No, no. That's Miley Cyrus. I've got that wrong. Sorry. But Miley Cyrus much bigger than Hillary Duff. I'm saying you can't afford to take my nine year old if I could get the tickets, first of all, which is the first challenge, to Hillary Duff. This has become normative. When I, you know, when my, when my kids were young, I could take them to four leaf games

a year. Right. But we're sitting in the upper corners. Right. In the graves, right? Now, you have two kids. You want to take into a leaf game? Yeah.

Even in the upper corners, you're spending $1,500 for four tickets. And, you know, then you're parking. You're paying for, you know, hot dogs, snacks, whatever. It's really leaving the majority of our citizens outside of being able to participate. very much in popular culture, in this live experience. They can listen to Spotify all day long. They can participate in other ways, but it's leaving the majority out.

Or they'll see Taylor Swift, that's the only show they're seeing this year. The only one, because it's taking, training the market of the money. Did you see Paul McCartney and Hamilton by any chance? I didn't. I was in Patty Smith in New York for 50th 100, for horses tonight.

Well, that's cooler. It's way cooler. No offense to Paul. I've seen many times. Paul's voice is shot. He gives a very generous show. He plays three hours, but his voice is shot, and the ticket price was nuts. If I'd been here, I would have found a way in.

Because you're Rob Bowman. I was in New York, so Patty Smith, 50th anniversary of horses was more important, and that was astonishing. Patty's an amazing shape. I did see her open. I saw her very recently open for a band at the National, but why they're 223. I was there, yes. Two and a half years ago.

I'm trying to remember who did I see Patty Smith open for here. By the way, the night of the McCartney and Hamilton thing, I was in Guelph watching Hawksley Workman, okay? So that's how I was rolling here. Well, there you go. You still saw a good show. Saw a great show. So, again, we're in a little detour because I remember

that Pearl Jam and I find the prices of concert tickets to be insane right now. But like you said, for rich people, it's all relative. Like, what is $1,000? To me, $1,000 is a lot of money. But there are people living on this very street where $1,000 is what I might think of $50

bucks means to me. So it's all relative. But I want to just quickly get back to Steve Cropper and wrap up Stacks because there's another big topic I want to get to. But I think it's worth to mention Steve Cropper, just another word or two about Steve Cropper, because he,

personally, he produced Doc of the Bay. And in this wonderful stacks document, we talked about, yeah, you get your green onion stuff and we talk about, of course, there's a lot of time, Dr. Martin Luther King we talked about. But there's also this wonderful, like, embedded in there is this wonderful Otis Redding documentary, of course. And I wondered if you'd say a word about Steve Cropper

before we remind people how they can read more about stacks, see more about stacks, and I got another big topic for you. The contribution of Steve Cropper is a guitarist, songwriter, artist, as a member of Bookerton, MGs, and a producer is unfathomable. It's one of the most important musicians in soul music history. That's real simple. When Mojo names them the second guitarist of all time, whatever you're that stupid poll was, those polls are dumb.

First of all, you know, second best, why not third? Why not first? But the idea, and what do you mean by best guitarist? I mean, I don't know who there was number one that year, but, you know, Steve can't play lead like Jeff Beck. He can't play like Jimmy Hendricks, and nor did he ever really want to. Steve was primarily an extraordinary rhythm player who understood. how to make a track, a dance track. A dance track was funk. He did play some leads. You know, you hear that play at Steve and Soulman. But those aren't long solos, like a Beck or a Page or a Clapton or Hendricks would play. You know, he wasn't technically advanced the way Eddie Van Halen

was. But that wasn't what he was trying to do. So again, who's better and who is ridiculous? He's probably one of the best rhythm guitarists ever, and one of the most important guitar. guitars to black popular music in American history. That's as simple as that. And remind us, can we still get your writings on stacks? Oh, yeah. People can go to Crave to see the series. My book is still there.

It's on Amazon. You can buy it tomorrow. You can buy it today. You can buy it the next 10 minutes. You can pause this episode and buy it right now. You could. And, of course, all the box sets are still available. You can buy all of that stuff if you're so inclined.

And kudos again. Great work. Thank you. Here's another jam for you. You ready? Absolutely. Last night, as I got home, about a half-past end. There was the woman I thought I knew in the arms of another man.

I kept my cool, I ain't no fool. Let me tell you what happened then. I packed some clothes, and I walked out, and I ain't going back again. So take a letter, Maria, address it to my wife, say I won't be coming home. Gotta stop a new life. Take a letter, Maria, address it to my wife, send a coffee to my lawyer. Gotta stop a new life You've been many things

But most of all Sounds great in the cans, man Tell me what we're listening to, Rob Bowman Take a letter, Maria, R.B. Greaves Do you know why I'm playing this one? No, you're playing this one Because it's first hit to come out On Musa Show Sound Studios in 1969

Recorded in August, by the way, even though so many accounts say it was recorded in December when the Stones were there. It was not. It was recorded several months earlier. We don't print the legend around here. We're looking for the facts. Facts with what it's at. I never let a good story. I don't know. I never let...

How should I put it? I never let a good story get in the way of the facts. Meaning, the facts are more important. I know other writers who never let the facts get in the way of a good story. No offense to them, but that's not what history is about. Well, they're from the West, and when the legend becomes fact, they print the...

They print the legend. They're from all over the place, actually. But the facts to me, this is an important cultural history we're telling. It needs to be, I can. and I do everything I can to get it accurate. Amen. Muscle Shoals, what can you just tell the listenership about Muscle Shoals

and where would one go if they wanted to dive deeper into Muscle Shoals? What the hell was Muscle Shoals? Well, if you really want to dive deeper, you go to my newest book, Land of a Thousand Sessions, The Complete Muscle Shoals Shoals story, 1951 to 1985. But what was Muscle Shoals? Muscle Shoals is a tiny area northwest Alabama. It's actually a short form for four cities, a Quad City area, with Sheffield, Florence, Tuscumbia, and Muscle Shoals itself.

All these little cities are right adjacent to each other. And for a number of crazy reasons, it became a center of recording activity in the 1960s, 70s and 80s, and beyond, too, for that matter. It started as a city where R&B was king. You had records like When a Man Loves a Woman by Percy Sledge coming out of there. You have Edda James Tell Mama and I'd rather go blind. You have Wilson Pickett, Land of a Thousand Dances, hence my title Land of a Thousand Sessions. Yeah, I got that, man. And also Mustang Sally.

And you get Aretha Franklin, her very first soul record. I never loved a man the way that I loved you. One of the great records ever, ever by any human being changed American music. All of these are cut in a studio called Fame, F-A-M-E, not for a... and I'm famous, but Florence, Alabama, music, enterprises. That's what Fame stands for. So that's the beginning. 1969, the house band, the rhythm section that worked at Fame,

had a financial disagreement with the owner of Fame, a guy named Rick Hall, and they left and set up their own studio, muscle show, sound, which, of course, we just heard Take a Letter Maria, which was the first hit in the first year, that they opened Muscle Show Sound. They would go on to record, I'll take you there, and respect yourself. In fact, all the hit singles by the Staples Singers. They recorded that incredible run of Bobby Womack's soul albums in the 70s.

But they also recorded Rock and Pop. Paul Simon's Codachrome is recorded there. Loves Me Like Rock's Recorded There. They play on Still Crazy after all these years. Every one of Bob Seeger's hits through 1980 was originally crafted in Mussel Shoals. Traffic recorded there. The Rolling Stones recorded brown sugar, wild horses, and you got to move there. Bob Dylan recorded his two gospel albums there.

Leon Russell, where's my brain? Carney, tightrope was the single. Carney was the album Tight Rope was a single. Joe Cocker, High Time We Went was recorded there. It's extraordinary. Simon Agarfunkel's one reunion. My Little Town was recorded there. So here's four guys, rhythm section, players.

First ones ever to start their own studio. They still record unbelievably great R&B records, but they're also adaptable and can make these great pop and rock records. Plus they record Jimmy Cliff, sitting in limbo. It's cut by those guys in that studio. So is Willie Nelson's phases and stages. So now we've got R&B, we got pop, rock. We have country, and we got reggae, all being cut there.

The original version of The Heart of They Come, which was called The Bigger They Come, the Heart of They Fall, and it's a little bit different than the one you know from the movie was cut in Muscle Shoals. And we just lost Jimmy. Yes, we did. Absolutely. Then the city pivots into a country town. Mac Davis, T.G. Shepard, Shenandoah, Jerry Reed, Con Huntley. I'll record massive records in Muscle Shoals.

And my book ends in 85 because that's when Muscle Shoals. Shull Sound was sold to another label called Malico, and Fame, still going up to this day, but fame had ceased being a center of recording activity for a little while, and instead, Mussel Shulls becomes a songwriting town. And writers signed to Fame and other publishing companies, Muscle Shoals, produce huge, huge hits like tons of Nashville artists up to this day. You know, Ronnie Milsop, Alabama, Barbara Mandrell, Travis Tritt, Stop being written in Muscle Shoals.

So it pivots. R&B to pop rock to country. Some of the greatest music. Was this something in the water? That's what a lot of people like to say. No offense. But I don't mind. It was an original thought. Yeah, I know you are.

It's the unlikelyhood that a guy named Rick Hall, who owned fame, didn't understand the word no. It was pick-headed enough to believe he could build something there when nobody else in the world would have ever thought it was possible. If Rick had been accepted, Nashville Muscle Shoals never happens, but it's not. And he's stubborn, pick-headed, and he's willing to work 18, 20 hours a day,

and he produces finally an R&B hit by Arthur Alexander called You Better Move On, the Stones, by the way, cover. That was in 1961. And from there, the thing keeps growing. And Rick develops a set of session musicians who leave them in December 64, go to Nashville, become the A-list players in Nashville. So, again, that's not going to feed him.

He develops a new set of session musicians who leave him in April 69 to form Musselshull sound. Does that stop him? No. He develops a third set of incredible session musicians called the Fame Gang. Eventually, Mussel Shulls us 10 different studios producing records. And hit albums by Hank Williams Jr. Come out of that place. It's astonishing.

John K. F. Steff Wolf records there. The disco group hot, their biggest singles, recorded there. It's unbelievable. The variety of stuff. And there's a Canadian connection. There's a magic records in Montreal started going down to Mussel Sholes and a huge French-Canadian disco hits with Toulouse and Boulouwer. I mean, these are big records and dance clubs in New York and Europe and as well as Quebec.

All recorded with Muscle Shoals musicians. But in this case, was a Quebec producer and Quebec vocalists. Okay, wow, lots there. One is that whenever I hear Steppenwolf now, my most recent guest I mentioned was Joey C., who was the music director at CKFH in the 60s, 67 to 69, I think. And he talks about helping Steppenwolf break

by basically hearing the hits, you know, like Magic Carpet Ride or Born to Be Wild or whatnot. So kudos to Joey C for how. having the right ear and realizing Steppenwolf's got something there here. Okay, so shut up with Steppenwolf. Rick Hall and Jim Stewart, are there any, are they cut from the same cloth in the sense that their stubbornness and their hustle sort of creates this environment where great music can thrive?

Not in the slightest. Okay. They both saw Sam Phillips and Sun Records as, if you will, a mentor. Rick Hall, a direct mentor, Rick would regularly talk to Sam and getting advice. Jim Stewart, not so much. Sam Hall, by the way, was from Florence, Alabama,

which was part of the Muscle Shoals area. So everybody there knew him. He'd been a disc jockey there before he left to go to Memphis. Oh, yeah, Sam Phillips, you mean? Yeah, so, you know, that was a natural connection for Rick Hall. Both Rick and Jim are similar

in that they both started as country fiddlers, funnily enough, and became really seminal R&B producers. both had great ears, but where Rick was driven and would work that 18, 20 hours a day was manic, would bully his musicians do whatever it took to get a hit record. Jim was laid back in the extreme. Jim would never bully musicians, would never push people, but he could hear and could pick. You know, this artist is worth signing. But Jim also listened to people. A lot of the great records had stacks came about, not because of,

of Jim finding the artist or finding the record. But Jim listening to others who told him, this is great, we need to work with this artist. We need to do this. Recall was a megalomaniac. He didn't want to listen to anybody. In fact, he turned down Percy Sledge when a man loves a woman. That's a mistake.

Yeah, that's a mistake. But he made so many right decisions. Move over Bill Buckner. We found a bigger boner here. That's a big mistake. It is interesting that you're like, you're the Stacks man and shining a light on this scene in Memphis. And then also, you know, now the Muscle Shoals guy, and that's in Alabama.

But this book of yours, shout it again. What's it called? It's called Land of a Thousand Sessions, the Complete Muscle Shoals story, 1951 to 1985. Okay, well, I hope you're talking to, you know, the creatives at HBO or wherever about, although there is a Muscle Shoals document. There is a Muscle Shoals documentary made in 2013. It is pretty good. It's great.

It's really well done. But it's really the Rick Hall story. I mean, and that makes sense. In 90 minutes to two hours film, you cannot tell something as complex of muscle shawls. No. So, Greg Camilleri, the guy who made that film, by the way, he never made a film before,

and he did a brilliant job. He gets full kudos. But Greg smartly thought, okay, this story hasn't been told, but the way to tell it, or the way to tell it the first time, it threw Rick Hall. And that's what he did, and he did a superb job.

There would be room for another film telling the story of the rhythm section that found in Mussel Show Sound and the diversity of stuff they got out of there. Whether it'll happen or not, who knows. But I hope you're taking some meetings or, you know... Put it this way. Anybody wants to talk about it, I'm all eight years.

And you said that chap's name was Camilleri who made the... Yeah, yeah. Okay, that's Joey C's last name. There you go. Proud Maltese, man. As far as I know, they're not related, but... Hey, you never know. Like, Malt is not that big a place.

Well, you know what? That story is crazy, too, in terms of that film. Camelary either him as a partner I can't remember which might be the partner is part of the Mars Candy Dynasty so

money was not an issue but this guy had never gone to film school never thought of making a film he's helping a friend move from the East Coast to Denver I believe and so they're doing a road trip of it and they stop in Mussel Shoals because they know there's history there

they go to the two studios where you can tour at this point in time and they like it so much they stay an extra day and then the rest of the drive they keep talking about somebody needs to make a film of this and again money's not a problem so there's not the issue that stops most people how do I raise X million dollars

to make a feature film they can do that and he took it on himself and taught himself how to make a film and did an amazing job he gets full points amazing. Here's what we're going to do. I'm going to share a fun fact with the, well, it's not a fun fact, but it's a fact, a historical, musical fact from the city that was told to me by the official Toronto historian of the Toronto Mike podcast, Jeremy Hopkins. So I'm going to share that. Then I'm going to give you some gifts. Then I have another jam for you. I'm going to play and talk about somebody and then get to the questions and then maybe I'll dismiss you. We'll see, Rob. I'm really enjoying this. So I might hold you hostage for a few more. hours here but it was on we talked about the mimic combo earlier because I met you through the flyer vault and I love that poster of James Brown promoting that's great it's amazing and

shout out to the VP who's got that hanging in his his studio but it was on this day January 7th in 1963 that the that Toronto's palace pier burned down so we talked about the Mimacombo, which is in, obviously, in Mimico, and not too far from there, just where the Humber Bay Bridge, I guess just west of the Humber Bay Bridge, I bike by it every day, was the Palace Pier, and that was a pretty cool venue that burned down on this day in 1969. There were a ton of great shows there. And they have a monument, so people think, because they've made condos called Palace Pier, but they're actually further, the condos are further west on Lake Shore.

The actual Palace Pier is really right next to where the bridge takes you into what we call like old Toronto. Right. But they have a monument there and you can see like they have some like remnants of there and there's a monument that you can see there just like I say just west of the Humber Bay Bridge. So thank you to Jeremy Hopkins for that for that factoid. Oh, one more quick.

This is a side, but you mentioned great docs and stuff and I realize, oh, I have Rob Bowman here. Have you seen the 60 minute TVO cut of the CFNY documentary yet? No, it debuted last night. I think at 7 p.m. Although, you know, 9 p.m. at debut, but, you know, you could have, it was on the TV Docs YouTube channel at 9 a.m. yesterday. Oh, didn't know that. So, no, I've not yet seen it.

I saw a lot of postings this morning by various friends of mine who had worked at CF and Y. And I'm looking forward to it. 60 minutes, so it was not enough. Well, I've seen the 90-minute cut. And? And, uh, I can, so I actually could tell you what was cut to make it 60 minutes, because I've seen the 90, I've seen the 60. And, well, I think that the problem, as I see it, not a problem, but you have two audiences for these things, right? The people who already are kind of like into the history of the station and are already like absorbing factoids and information.

And I myself have, I don't know how many hundreds of hours of Toronto Mike are talking to the Iver Hamilton's, the Scott Turner's, the David Marsden's, the Allen Crosses, the Maypods, the Liz Janix, the Leslie Crosses. They're all, they're all in there because I'm interested in the history of the same of why. So you need to, you can't satisfy that audience and at the same time make a 60 minute version for the Great Unwashed. It's always a problem. It's impossible. Well, you know, to me, do you want to satisfy that first audience? You're making a six-hour version. Right.

But obviously, that's not commercially. You're going to pay for that. That's not commercially viable. So, you know, you could get the quote unwashed with a good 90-minute version. That muscle shows, Doc, we just talked about. Yeah. I'm amazed how many people watched it who had never heard of muscle. those shows. But that's because the buzz

got out, this is a really good doc. And I don't know how long it was. I don't have to go check my copy, but it's at least 90 minutes. It might be 100 minutes. And lots of, quote, the great unwashed. Another example is, what is it called? Heavy Metal Journey,

Headbanger's Ball. Right. That film, lots of people, I remember my kids were playing hockey back then. They were younger. And, you know, parents who were so unheavy metalish. But they'd heard about it or they'd watched it on a plane somewhere and were talking about it with me

because they figured I could relate to it but there's people who were not the audience for that but the film had enough of a buzz it got the audience. See if and why could have done the same so I think 90 minutes is not overly long no but the TVO wanted 60 minutes so no one's seen all except for the insiders and myself the 90 minute version

is unavailable so you get the 60 minute version so I say make the 90 minute version available god damn it You're preaching to the choir here. And Shadow, you've mentioned Headbangers Ball or whatnot. We've got to say shout out to Midtown Gord, who's listening. So that's what we say when you hear the heavy metal, the Headbangers Ball. Okay, so I promise you gift.

So Rob Bowman, because you're here, I would love to give you a large lasagna. It's frozen in my freezer. It is courtesy of Palma Pasta, authentic, delicious Italian food. Do you enjoy lasagna? I'm allergic to cheese. You know what? There's so much cheese in this thing. You know, I can't give it to you.

My wife would like it, but no, I can't eat it. What's it like living life allergic to cheese? You know what? I've never lived life not allergic to cheese. It's like being born blind. So, you know, as far as I'm concerned, life allergic to cheese is a great life. I've had a wonderful life. I bet you they, oh, it is, oh, you said Jimmy Stewart earlier in this conversation.

So shout out to it's a wonderful life. I don't think you can make a lasagna. Have you ever had a cheeseless lasagna? No, but I've had billions of cheeseless pizzas. So yes, and is it just that they just remove that part and you just have like your bread and your sauce and your topping? Well, sure. If you think about it, what is pizza? It's flat bread with stuff on it. Right. And in fact, in Italy, you can get lots of pizzas without cheese. Right. It's only here in North America where people can't imagine a pizza without cheese.

Well, that's the glue, right? That's how you, everything sticks to it. Well, that is true. That is true. So your pizzas without cheese might be a little sloppier, but they're really damn good. And I tell you, I was a teenager. we had painted a very small room. We were high from paint fumes. And that's the idea of, oh, let's just order one no cheese and see what they say.

And to our surprise, they didn't bat an eyelash because we're not the only, I wasn't the only one that ever did that. And after that, I realized you can always go to pizza, no cheese. The best pizza, no cheese? In Memphis, barbecue pizza, no cheese.

I'm taking notes over here, Rob. Holy smokes. Okay, so I will tell you that Palmaposte does have some great food that has no cheese in it, but it's not in my freezer right now. But here's what I have for you to take home, because I've got to give you something, although your wife will enjoy this on you.

Fresh craft beer that's brewed right here in the southern Atobico. Much love to Great Lakes Brewery. They sent over some beer for you, Rob Bowman. Well, my wife will like that, too. I can't drink alcohol because I've had a double lung transplant. Rob, get out of my basement. I can't give you any good for you. You know what?

I almost feel like on the heels of learning about the double lung transplant, and you're doing okay? Twelve years later, I'm doing great. I am so grateful, period, but I'm very grateful to the medical system here. People whine and complain about it, and yeah, it's not perfect, but it's amazing. I've had two emergency operations. Lung transplant, I was given 40 minutes to live, and I did live. The other one, I was paralyzed on the left side.

They got me in so fast, and did spinal surgery, and as you can see, my left arm can move anywhere, do anything. So, as far as I'm concerned, we have an incredible medical system, and you know what I paid for both of those operations combined? Zero. Zip. If I, in the States, I'd be bankrupt. So I also defend our system because there's this triage system where the people who need immediate assistance get it.

And if you cut your finger because you were chopping peppers and green onions, let's say, since we're in the theme here, and you're, yeah, you know what? You might sit in St. Joe's for six hours. hours. You might, right, right. But when I went in, I went in with a blood clot on my brain, okay? Yeah, true story. I live to tell the tale.

They don't mess around. It's all about what do you have. And when you need to, you have 40 minutes, we've got to do something. It gets done and you don't get an invoice at the end of the day. And it doesn't break. Thank goodness. What a civilized way to have a society. And I do not mind paying tax for that.

You know, people complain about taxes all the time. Of course, we don't like to keep more money. but I'd rather pay more tax and have a good society. It was better education, better medical system, and, you know, less crime. With you. And you know violent crime in this city that we're talking in right now is way down. Of course it is. And people never...

But don't tell Daniel Tate. It's going to ruin his narrative. Yeah, people never get that. They hear a few headlines because there's always going to be some ugly stuff. And they go, blah, it's actually, we're in a very safe city compared to many places. the world. Absolutely. Now, I'm glad we put a little buffer because I was on the heels of hearing about your double

lung transplant. I was worried about gifting you this measuring tape from Ridley Funeral Home. Oh, well, there you go. But hey. So you know what? Why does a funeral home need a measuring tape? That's interesting, but it's very nice of them to give you this, you know? It's handy.

And they have a great... Next time I go to a funeral, I'm going to measure the distance between the pews. They have a great podcast, Ridley Funeral Home. It's called Life's Undertainty. and you can subscribe it. Speaking of a great podcast, actually, I want to shout out Nikaiinis, who's back here Friday. He's got a great podcast called Building Toronto Skyline.

And we talk about basically a lot of historic buildings, a lot of new developments. There's a lot of conversations with architects. I'm sure they'll be a tribute to Frank Gehry coming up. So people should enjoy Nigainis' this podcast, which is called Building Toronto Skyline. And one last tip before I play this jam here, Rob, recycle myelectronics.ca if you have I don't know a drawer a room full of old cables old electronics old devices obsolete tech maybe you got to get rid of this don't throw it in the garbage because those chemicals end up in our landfill go to recycle my electronics.coma put in your postal code and find out where you can drop it off great idea you're ready for another jam last jam of the three you ready all right let's go

here you come again and you say that you're my friend but I know why you're here she wants to know what I would be tell her that I'm happy Tell her that I would get Tell her I wouldn't have it Any other way

Name that tune, Rob Bowman Any other way, the great Jackie Shane But written by William Bell A stacks artist, by the way It all ties together I'm telling you, I'm just like we rehearsed this or whatever But what can you tell the Great Unwashed, as I'm now referring to the unaware, about Jackie Shane? Jackie Shane was a sole star in Toronto in the 1960s.

She only really was big in Montreal, Toronto, Boston, and Los Angeles. And Toronto is where she was, you know, bigger than the other places. She lived here for most of the 60s, left December 71 overnight, and never came back, never played another show. she became a reckless and stayed a reckless until 2016 when she agreed to have her stuff reissued because it was being bootlegged by somebody and I got asked to write the liner notes which meant interviewing Jackie

and the funny thing is I started writing for magazines when I was 15 in November 71 literally I was 15 in my first gigs and I had thought at the time it'd be great to do a Jackie Shane interview I love Jackie's records I bought him as a kid and of course then she disappears a month after I've got this magazine gig

so that didn't happen thought it would never happen 45 years later I'm suddenly interviewing Jackie Shane we spent 26 hours of recorded interviews but over 100 hours talking and Jackie became a huge

huge part of my life and I produced double CD of her material we got nominated for a Grammy unfortunately we lost nine days later Jackie passed away which is kind of tragic. Jackie wanted a documentary film, which we got made.

And, of course, it's on Crave right now and won a Peabody Award. Jackie also wanted a book, and the estate's asked me to start working on that. Is that the next big project for Rob Bowman? It's one of a couple projects, yeah. Do you want to tell me the other one real quick here? No, because the other one's still secret. Because a few things have to happen before it becomes absolute reality. Of course.

And there's Jackie also. wanted a biofiction film. And Janelle Manet has optioned her life rights to do that. Now, just because something's option doesn't mean it happens. In fact, nine out of ten times it never gets produced. But hopefully Janelle Manet can make that happen and Jackie three wishes will come true. And to that end, if we have anybody out there who knew Jackie, and I know that's unlikely because it's got to have to be pretty old, or who saw Jackie and you have stories, I'm interested in them for the book. So I'm easy to find. You look me up on the internet. You can find me in seconds. You can find me on Facebook. If you have any stuff that pertains to Jackie that you think

would be interesting for a book, I'm all ears. Please reach out and contact me. And if you can't find Rob, find me, Mike at Toronto Mike.com, and I'll flip your email to Rob Bowman. All right. You can find me, though. But you can find Rob Bowman. I found him. I'm deliberately available. He's accessible. Yeah, I need to be for what I do. Well, you belong to the people. So as far as I'm concerned, here you are.

Okay, so in 1971, what magazine were you writing for? A beetle magazine. Beetle was a glossy. That was a national magazine. Obviously, the name, Beetle, B-E-E-T-L-E, was a pun on the Beatles, but also a nod to Rolling Stone. And it was great for about five years. They went bankrupt like so many magazines do, owing me money, of course, which so many magazines did back then.

It was an amazing start. When I was 15, my first interview was T-Bone Walker, the great blues musician, wrote Stormy Monday. My first cover story was Pink Floyd, The Dark Side of the Moon Tour. Take a day off school when you're 16 and I have the kids ask you the next day. Where were you yesterday?

I was interviewing Pink Floyd. And see what cultural capital accrues. I can only think of one guest in the history of this podcast who might beat that story. Who's that? Jerry Levittan. Oh, the Beatles. He was 14 at the King Eddie talking to John Lennon.

Well, hey, more power to Jerry. That's a great story. But that's a good story, too. Yeah. Well, it led to Bob Dylan hiring me, the Rolling Stones hiring me. I spent three days with Bob Marley. I mean, you know, there's a great story. I was coming home from school.

And I was coming home late, but I was supposed to interview Frank Zappa at five. Well, apparently either I got the time mixed up or Zappa did with the time change or one of the, his manager, or the publicist, somebody. So he was calling earlier, and I'm walking home from school. My mom's on the porch calling, where have you been? Frank Zappa's been calling. Frank Zappa's been calling. So Frank Zappa called back, and we had a great conversation.

Most intelligent man I'd ever met up to that point. Yeah, so when you hear him like he's talking about obscenity and Congress or whatever, that's a sharp knife. Frank Zappa. Absolutely. Frank was brilliant. And he taught me something very important, which, serves me in my later life, he taught me as an interviewee, as opposed to an interviewer,

that if you have a dumb interviewer, and I'm not suggesting... Which you may have right now. No, no, no, I'm not suggesting that. But I've had plenty over the years who'd know nothing about what they're asking you about, but they've got some assignment. Just take control of the conversation. They ask you what colors the wall. Tell them about your new book.

And if they ask you about your new book, but they don't really know anything, make sure you had all the points you think people need to know. Zappa did that. It's like you're interviewing yourself, basically, in that, in that area. Yeah, just, just, and make life easy for the interviewer, meaning don't get pissed off and go, hmm, give one sentence to answer just like Lou Reed would. You know, instead, actually be effusive because it writes the article for them. And they're lazy.

If they haven't prepared, they're lazy, so they're going to be lazy writing the article, so give them so much, they got tons for their article. Big tip. And you got what you need done. Even the person's lazy and stupid and haven't done their work. Did you interview Lou Reed? I spent six hours with Lou, the longest interview of his life. Lou, as people who might know, often didn't last 15 minutes before he'd walk out on people.

We went six hours, no exaggeration. I have the tapes to prove it. And it was an amazing interview. I got stuff out of Lou that no one had ever, ever heard. I was doing a box set, co-produced. and Lou loved what I had done with Otis Redding and he loved the box set I'd done so he was more cooperative than he normally would be

but I tell you he still hated doing interviews at one point he took a washroom break and he goes, you know what? Thank God you're so organized. Otherwise this would be horrible. This would be torture but thank God it's you. In other words still being irritable Lou. Right. That's an interesting way to compliment

interviewer. It's great stuff. When I think of Reed, I think, of FOTM, Kevin Hearn. And we had a very heavy conversation where he was with Lou in the end of his life. And he used that experience, his time with Lou Reed, basically helping him shed his mortal coil, with Gore Downey, Kevin Hearn. You know, two Toronto musicians had long runs with Lou, Kevin and Michael Fonfara. Okay. Yeah, and they're both great musicians, and they both were blessed to have that relationship.

with Lou. Kevin Hearn is involved in the new real statics project on the Great Lakes. Makes sense. Makes sense. Make sense. Absolutely. More power to Kevin. Kevin, who's, I see here, where is it? Over there. The look people album over there. And the look people has Kevin Hearn in it. The look people are looking at you. They're looking at me. Shout out to James B. Is James B famous? Yes. James B is absolutely famous, at least in Toronto. I don't know how far I'm telling you. When I speak like that, you're right. I'm not talking about is he famous in Los Angeles. James is a great guy. Yeah.

He's done a lot for the city. I think there's a dock coming on James B. Is there? I think Joel Goldberg is involved in us. Oh, I like Joel. I've done a couple. I've been in a couple of his dogs. He was directing those videos for the look people back in the day.

That's great. You talk to Joel, say hi. Oh, I talk to him all the time because he's promised me the dream warriors will visit, but he's been promising me this for about a decade now. At some point, maybe this isn't happening, but he did, I'm looking at the Maestro Fresh West, 12 inches here. Right. He directed those early videos as well.

And that's such an important record. Tats off to Maestro forever. Oh, yeah, let's spend 90 minutes on Maestro. That's the actual 12 inch I bought in 1989. And it took me until 2016 to get Maestro to visit my basement and sign it. But love that guy. Love that guy. Okay, so what we're going to do now is because I could easily talk to you for several hours.

And I'm seeing on the live stream, people are like, this should be a quarterly guest. so we'll talk about maybe doing this more often than once every six years or whatever the heck what pace we're on right now. But I'm just going to start running down things that people wanted me to, so you can do quicker hits or longer hits, whatever. But I'm going to start with Len Lumber's

who has already got a question in here. I can't remember what he was asking about, but it was a good question. He learned your con on. Len said, he's Mr. 1000. He said, wow, keen, I know he's a York guy, but he used to pop up in both my dad's and my record collections as R&B liner note writer extraordinaire. I've done over 300 liner notes.

Move over Martin Popoff. We have a new champion here. Oh, Martin doesn't do liner notes. No, I know. He writes... Martin turns out a book a week. Right. Yeah.

And more power to him for it. Yeah, he's also a beloved FOTAM. But wrote a great book on stacks that I especially appreciated because its type was smaller than any other book I own. Yeah, that was an interesting situation. Your average book is 90,000 words. When I was working in stacks, I wrote the first third, and that was 60,000, so I realized we're not going to, we're going to come way over 90,000.

Phone the publisher, phone the editor, and I thought, we've got a problem. This is what it is. So two choices. You can read what I've written if you think it's worthy. We'll keep going with a new contract, with a new word length. If you don't, I'll buy the book back, I'll pay the advance back. Editor Redder really liked it. So I said, yeah, okay, we'll do contract 180,000 words.

I said, why don't we make a 200,000? That way we don't fight when I come in over 180. Anyway, he wouldn't do it. So it was 180. I wrote 222. Whoa. And he loved it and blessed his heart. He said, we're going with it.

But what he didn't tell me is the way he's going to financially make it work, he has fitted into their formula of this kind of book at so many pages. This price will sell this amount and it's profitable. So it would just shrink the type. so we can fit it into those pages. So for older people, it's a really hard book to read sometimes. You know, you need magnifying glass and your glasses.

It's not quite that bad. But, you know, people don't need reading glasses, use reading glasses, sometimes read that book. I love that insight. And that's not even his question. He's just throwing it in there. Okay. His question is,

what do you, Rob Bowman, think the future is for reissues on mainstream artists? Excuse me. We've moved from single, greatest hits samplers in the 1980s and more immersive multi-CD box sets in the 1990s to the present days half-speed vinyl masters and super deluxe CD vinyl hybrid additions, both of which demand a sizable investment from buyers. What's left short of AI stripping the track so you can add your own noise?

Does the market have any wiggle room left? Any thoughts on this, Rob Bowman? Well, it's interesting when he says wiggle room. I'm not sure for what. You know, record companies will always sell. whatever an audience will buy. Nobody could have predicted this vinyl resurgence and their ability to sell vinyl at absurd amounts. They don't need to sell those prices, but they do.

So, you know, I've found that I don't get much work anymore for those big box sets because CDs are not of great interest to most recommend. Some still happen. I did one a couple years ago. I think it was 16 CDs on Wastacks. It might have been 14. I can't remember. But now the work I'm getting, and I think it's true of a lot of people who do this kind of thing, is for vinyl reissues. The drag about that is there's only so much space in a double, you know, with a fold-out record.

So I just finished one 2,000 words, whereas the one I won a gram before was 47,000 words. Wow. You know, you can't go into depth with these vinyl reissues. What you can do is provide a succinct, really good overview of how does record. was made, why it's important. But it's the kind of stuff that somebody like me knows in the back of their head. Right. So people like me getting these new reissues are not finding out all this new stuff. What I loved about the CD world is it allowed for new research and we actually learn new things about how James Brown made records, how the Stacks records were

made in those liner notes when they were really good. So at the moment, I think the future There's shorter liner notes. LP reissues, I don't see Spotify or any of the other streaming services moving too hard to want to include liner notes along with, you know, streaming the actual music. So I think that's where it's at. And music books will just keep coming out, which is what, you know, people write liner notes. The better ones are also writing books. Absolutely, as you are.

He also wants to know whether he should buy the new Mavis Staples album. Oh, absolutely. It's a great album. Everybody should buy it, right? Well, it's Mavis, period. but I think it's her best album in 10 years. It's a really great record. She has that Christmas song

and the Christmas vacation. I just saw it. I just went through all these big Christmas movies. She said a better Christmas song who took the Marriott of Christmas that came out in Stacks back in 73, 72. That's why you're here. You're going to cool me up.

You're adding some coolness to the studio here. Oh, hipsters Christmas stuff, I can take you to the floor. Well, you know, what's going to happen is I'm going to, next December, I'm going to be begging you to come back to kick out like your 10 favorite Christmas hipster song. I used to do a three-hour Christmas show

for CBC, before that for CKLN, before that for W.EVL and Memphis. But why do you say it in past tense? There's no appetite for that anymore? No, but it's been asking me for a long time. Well, I just asked you, I'm dead serious about this, Rob Bowman, in late, obviously we have to get back to the season

and nobody wants to hear it right now. No. We'll record it now and I'll drop it in December. We'll hear the great reindeer boogie. I'm so excited. Christmas Night in Harlem. Oh, my God. Yeah.

Is that James Brown? No, that's Louis Armstrong. Okay. Render Boogies. Harlem, right? He's got a Harlem Christmas song, James Brown. James Brown's Santa Claus goes straight to the ghetto.

That's the one. Yeah, that's a great song too. Even better is let's make Christmas mean something this year. James did three Christmas albums. He's more than just the Mimicombo performer. Okay, so we are going to do that because I'm so excited. I can't tell you. but Canada Kev, who's on the live stream,

Canada Kev, I know there's a delay, but you can put this in there. Did you, is it, am I remembering correctly? You attended a Rob Bowman class at York University. I'm pretty sure this is true, but put in that detail, and I'll read it later. I know there's a little bit of a delay here. But, okay, Canada Kev wrote me earlier.

Rob Bowman's got a lot of knowledge about George Clinton, Parliament Funkadelic, and their association with Toronto. I'd be interesting to hear what he thinks of George Clinton touring again this year with the mothership and Dr. Funkenstein, etc. I'm seeing George January 31st in Detroit

with the Detroit Opera Symphony. Literally George is reimagining the P-Funk repertoire with an orchestra at the opera house in Detroit at the end of January. So that's pretty cool. In terms of the tour this year with the mothership, well, the mothership is, is, I get chills, thinking about it when I first saw it land.

The mothership is so important. And, you know, George doesn't have a voice anymore, unfortunately, but he still surrounds himself as good musicians. And seeing the mothership land, if you've ever seen it, it's worth it's worth whatever you have to do to see it. So I'm very, very excited about seeing that once again. This would be the third mothership, right? There was the first in the mid-70s.

The second one was in 96. I feel like that. He was in, like, PCU or something. some kind of a, he got like a rebirth from some kind of comedy. I don't know anyways. He's been in a billion things. He's been a billion things. You know, make my funk to be funk and wants to get funked up. I want the bomb. I want

to be funk. I want my funk uncut. Kids should be taught that in kindergarten, if not preschool. George is one of the most important musicians in American history. Jeez. And he was a Canada Kev, I'm referring to, was a student of yours in 1992 93. So

shout out to Canada Kev. Thanks for the question. What else? Hold on here. Okay, yeah, I was going to ask you about, you know, we were talking about Kevin Hearn, who I consider one of the nicest people in Toronto music. Like, I consider him just a sweetheart. But there's another sweetheart, although he moved to Stratford.

Not many people nicer than Ron Sex-Smith. Oh, Ron's great. Yeah, like, and I couldn't help, because, of course, I'm going through your, you know, what has Rob Bowman done so much and so many interesting things, but I couldn't help but notice that you do have a professional affiliation of Ron's X-Men. I've been friends

of Ron's for years. I don't have a professional affiliation with him. I was a talk... Oh, you were part of a documentary. Yeah, it was a talking head on a documentary about Ron. Ron's, by the way,

playing Huss Room Live, I think, this month. It could be wrong, but I think he's coming shortly. Well, we need to shout out FOTM Jane Harbury when we talk about Hughes Room. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Jane's also been an important part of this city forever. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, no argument here. So you're a talking head, okay. You're looking at, some CV. It looks old to me, though. We got to polish this up here, but it's worth

mentioning that... Where did you get that from? That particular Ron Sex-Smith detail. No, the CV. Where did you get that? Oh, no, it's not a CV. Okay, there's a list of your books. Okay, so you're looking at here. You're not supposed to see my screen. The books, which, of course, we talked about Solville, USA. It's just so I could remember these names, right? Because I know you were here to talk about the flyer vault, and of course, we talked quite a bit about Stacks Records.

And Solville, USA, the story of Stacks Records. Solville, not Soulsville. You know, I got a little bit of an accent on me here. And then the one that we, you mentioned Malaco Records Story. That's the last soul company. That's the Malaco Records story. And then you talked, you've so many liner notes, and we talked about Jackie Shane.

Ain't, sorry, any other way, but also the Rolling Stones. There's satanic majesty's request, the 50th anniversary. You wrote that, I guess, in 2017. So I would say we would need several hours just to dive into everything. But it sounds like you've got some new projects on the go,

one of which you're not allowed to tell me about yet. Not yet. But there'll be lots of stuff happening. You know, you say the phone always rings, and now it's the emails always come in. And I was going to ask you about the talking head thing because I am a sucker for a music doc, whether it's good or not.

I'm going to probably check it out, right? And some are good and some are not. We talked about some that are very good today. But, you know, if Billy Joel, if there's a Billy Joel one, I'm going to tune in and see how they cover Billy Joel and see who are the talking heads on this. I think there is a Billy Joel. Yeah, that's why I picked on it because in 2025 I watched a Billy Joel documentary. And I'm, oh, these. So how in demand are you to be a talking head in other people?

Like the CF and Y doc, I know they found out who did they sit down with. I was curious who they sit down with and don't put in the dock. This is my curiosity. city. So I'm like, oh, they talk to the Gary's separately. Gary Kormier is in the dock and Gary Top is on the cutting room floor. Gary Top got cut out? Oh my God.

That's terrible. I know. Well, it's terrible. It's because, not terrible in the same way, but they, and I asked the director, I had the director on, I'm like, how come there's Gary Kormey and Gary Topper? They just liked the Kormier quote better for the documentary. So that's, you know, no slight against Gary. And that happens.

I mean, I've, I've, you know, been involved in making docs before where people, I would have loved, we interviewed, that I would have loved to have included, for whatever reason the director decided, nah, we got a better covered by somebody else, and it's, you know, I always feel badly for that person

wasting their time doing the interview, and they're not even in the film. But I've done dozens of these. Well, here, I guess my long way to go for me to ask you, did you ever sit down as a talking head for a documentary and then you found out you were on the cutting room floor?

Yes, that's happened at least a couple times. But most part, no, but a couple times I'm sure it's happened. But so I guess I'm curious how it feels because, and I don't know, maybe you do so many and you're Rob Bowman, for God's sake, that, you know, no skin off your back, whatever. But like, I would think if I sat down for, if they interviewed me for a CFAWI doc, and then it airs on TVO and I'm not in the damn thing, I would be mildly sad.

Not sad. Disappointed, maybe? Yeah, pissed off. They wasted, I mean, and I didn't do CF and Y interview, so there's nothing about CF and Y. No, they didn't ask me. But, you know, you spend three hours at minimum, you know, getting to wherever they're shooting it, you know, the time it takes for them to set up, test everything, shoot the interview, even if it's just an hour-long interview. But sometimes they're two or three hours. Right.

And then, you know, time to get home. And nothing's used. And you know you gave them a good interview. Like, why waste my time? So that's, that's my question. Like, do they compensate you at all for this time? You know what? Various project to project.

Most interviews you do not get paid for. Some films, very few, do have a budget, no pay, a quote, call it a talking head or call it an expert who's not promoting himself or his work. You know, so for example, all the people work to see if and why, they wouldn't have got paid because they're talking about something else. part of their life. And I doubt anybody got paid on that film in terms of the interviews. But sometimes they might have,

you know, got some... Like, what about Getty Lee? Okay? Because Getty Lee's in the dark. No. You know, it's insulting to even suggest

you're going to pay, what, Getty and Honor him of $500 to be in... Also, they had to license the spirit of radio song. So he's getting paid through another channel. Sure he is.

But no, somebody like Getty, he either is going to do it or not going to do it. You know, $500... Like a Jim Kerr. Okay, go on. Sorry.

Sorry, I don't think any of those people are you going to ask for money. They're either going to want to do it because they believe in the project or they're going to say, I don't have time for this. And, of course, lots of times they don't have time or won't make time for films. There's lots of films where you go, God, they should have interviewed so-and-so. Then you find out, well, they tried for a year, and they just would never do it. Well, there is a chap they desperately wanted to talk to for the CFNY Doc and simply could not find him, even though they spent years looking for him. Who's that? Chris Shepard.

Isn't Chris passed away? No, that's Martin Streak. So Martin Streak passed away in 2009. Great question. Interesting. I've also put an episode of Toronto Mic in the feed searching for Shep because he has seemingly disappeared. And I just hope he's alive and well somewhere.

I do too. Rob, this was amazing. Won't be your last visit. I'm glad we finally got to do a one-on-one because you came in for the Flyer Vault, but we really stuck to the book that day with Daniel Tate. And I love that chat, but this was the deepest dive, and we're going to do another one. And you're going to come back next December to kick out those hipster Christmas jams, okay, buddy?

Santa Claus wants some loving. Backdoor Santa. I've heard that one. That's great. You know, I've all the kids, I've got four kids. At least two of them are already excited about next Christmas, and I'm here more excited than they are, because Rob Bowman is going to come in and play the songs with me. Thanks for doing this.

You're welcome. You have a great day. And that brings us to the end of our 1,830th show. Make sure you pick up the new book from Rob Bowman about Muscle Shoals. This is a fresh book. This is a new book. Get that book and then go back and read about stacks and catch up on what you've missed. Amazing. And get the flare-vold too.

It's all fascinating to me. Go to Tronomike.com for all your Toronto mic needs. And much love to all who made this possible. That's Great Lakes Brewery. Palma Pasta. Rob's wife is going to enjoy that. Nick Aienies. Can't wait to see you Friday, Nick.

Recycle MyElectronics.C.A. Welcome back for 2026. And Redley Funeral Home. See you all tomorrow when my guest is Ed Keenan from the Toronto Star. He's back for his quarterly. See you all. Then. Subdivision's

Subdivisions Subdivisions We're going to do. We're going to be able to be. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.