Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Rod Smith: Toronto Mike'd #213

Episode Date: January 16, 2017

Mike chats with TSN's Rod Smith about his years anchoring SportsDesk / SportsCentre, hosting CFL on TSN and more.

Welcome to episode 213 of Toronto Mic'd, a weekly podcast about anything and everything. Proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, a local independent brewery producing fresh craft beer. And Chef's Plate, delivering delicious and locally sourced farm fresh ingredients and refrigerated kits directly to your door. Source farm fresh ingredients and refrigerated kits directly to your door. I'm Mike from TorontoMike.com and joining me this week is TSN's Rod Smith. Welcome, Rod. Mike, it is an honour to finally be in the most famous basement in Toronto media history. That was my goal.

You've got it. And we got beer, we're in a basement talking sports. What could be better than that? That's right, that's right. And that beer, right off the top a basement talking sports. What could be better than that? That's right. That's right. And that beer, right off the top, since you mentioned the beer, that's going home with you. That's not just like an attractive tabletop piece. Looks good.

That winter ale you're going to love. Yeah. Nice big bottle, too. There's Great Lakes Brewery, and I haven't had it before, so I look forward to trying it out. Do you follow lacrosse at all? Not a lot. That's okay. You're not alone there.

But the new beer sponsor for the Toronto Rock are these guys. Yeah, it's Great Lakes. Which is pretty cool because usually it's the big conglomerates, like Molson or Labatt's or whatever. So that's pretty cool. They sponsor three things as far as I know. They sponsor the Toronto Rock. They sponsor the Lakeshore Santa Claus Parade.

And? And Toronto Mic'd. There you go. So there you go. That's great company I'm in. By the way, there's two things, right off the bat, two things I'm jealous. I'm jealous of two things, Rod Smith, if I will.

That my name is similar to Rod Stewart? Yeah. That's about the Rod S part is about the only similarity. I think Rod is a cool name. Like, I think that's a cool, like, man's name, Rod. Yeah. I remember asking my parents, you know, how did I get that name?

Because it's Roderick. It's not Rodney. Even though I have a lot of friends that call me Rodney, it is actually Roderick. Roderick. And, yeah, I'm trying to remember. There was someone of a certain degree of fame that I was named after. I've got to check with my parents again and get that clarified. Check in and email me, and I'll put it on an update,

because people won't sleep until they know. So two things, though. Rod, which I actually just think is a cool freaking name. All the Rods are cool. And the other thing I'm jealous of is that voice. So I've got a few questions. That voice is amazing. Thank you.

I appreciate that. When did you realize you had a voice like that? Where does that kick in? In terms of just being loud and projecting, I was pretty young. I mean, they always knew when I'd fallen asleep on road trips, my parents, because as the youngest, I thought in a conversation, I got to fight to get my way in. My sister was fairly loud and my brother too, and everyone would argue.

Oh, sure. Yeah. And so I think I got an early start at at least shouting. And at least, you know, I guess projecting. I shouldn't say shouting, but at least projecting from the diaphragm. I mean, working on that part of it. If you want to be heard, I tend to, I've been told even in polite conversation, if I get excited about we're talking sports, whatever, and my wife will

sometimes say to me, like, look at your voice. Like, shut up. Because you're too loud. You're yelling. And I don't yell in anger, but sometimes I just. You're emphatic. Yeah. And I think that was part of it too.

I feel like I've been projecting all my life. No, I get that. And if one sibling is loud, then if you need to be heard, you got to be louder. You don't match them. You have to outdo them. You have to shout over them. I don't know why that is. So when

does it kick in? Are you like a 14-year-old with that voice? When does that sort of drop? I always, and I appreciate what you say, I've always, as I say, for lack of a better word, been loud, or at least tried to jump in and project in a conversation and not been too quiet, just to make sure my voice

was heard. But I suppose later on, once I took an interest in the business, there are certain tricks, I suppose, in breathing and there are other aspects to speech. Smoking and vodka? No, no. Well, you know what? A little bit of scotch never hurt. Well, Jeff Woods said his trip was smoking and scotch at age nine or something. Well, no.

I didn't do the smoking part, but I noticed if you had a few whiskeys the night before and you get up, you're probably an octave lower. That and also, if you're in a bar and you're shouting all night, that'll put a real strain in your vocal cords, too. So is this like an innate thing you were born with? Like, is it too late for me to get a voice like that? Is it too late?

Well, I think I suppose it depends, I guess, on the size of your vocal cords. There are certain things that give the voice resonance. But I would say what's really misleading about voice work, I've heard so many different voices that I really like, and they would have all kinds of different pitches, a great variety. I think it's how you use whatever tool that it is you have. I think there are other ways. I've heard people that I thought their voices sounded very rich and wonderful, and yet if they got in front of a microphone, they couldn't do anything with it and by contrast some people that it might have it might have sounded a little more um

average if you will and yet some people just brilliant speakers i mean things that i i really think that if you the more you work on your craft on speaking on um on conversing into a microphone naturally everything else i i really think sometimes you tell that person has a wonderful voice and you listen to it and they actually might sound just like everybody else, but they're just very, very good at expressing themselves in front of a microphone. And I think that's an art form. So absolutely there is.

That's good to hear. That's the correct answer I was looking for. Do you not like the way you sound now? I think you sound great. I just wish I sounded like Rod Smith. You know what I mean? Like, you know, that whole NFL films narration. By the way, that was because you asked. That was an inspiration. Honestly, it was.

Can you do some for me? Let's see. I loved John Fasenda. For those who don't know, he was the voice, the original voice of NFL films. He died in 1983. And the last thing he ever did, it was when the Los Angeles Raiders beat the Washington Redskins in the Super Bowl, Super Bowl XVIII.

And I think one of his final lines was, nothing on earth that blocked or tackled or passed or ran could have stopped the Raiders on Black Sunday. Wow, I got chills right there. He was epic. He was absolutely epic. I think I even had to turn down the other Rod. Okay, so when I'm loading up Rod songs,

I only load it up two, but I'm thinking, oh, Rod Stewart's the most famous. By the way, you haven't mentioned Rod Black. Oh, you know what? I was going to mention him later when I jump into the... Because we've been, just strictly because of our first names, you have no idea how many times... I'm glad, by the way, Mike, you didn't introduce me as Rod.

You know what? No, because I... And I like Rod. He's my buddy. But we get mixed up all the time. So when I brought up, when I was going to bring up the CFL and TSN stuff, I was going to ask if they had a quota. Like, isn't one Rod enough? Like, don't they have like a... Like, they already fulfilled their Rod quota.

Like, how are you getting this gig as a second rod? It didn't make sense to me. The second rod. The second rod. I felt that way at times. And we've joked about it over drinks that we should just, we should do a show. Just call it the rods or the two rods or something like that. Rod squared.

Rod blacksmith. Blacksmith rod. Yeah. So something like that. There you go. By the way, so I'm playing, and it's just ended, actually. Actually, here we go some more. But that's Rowdy Roddy Piper's For Everyone from the wrestling album.

So that was my favorite Rod growing up. Oh, Rowdy Roddy Piper? Absolutely. And I have a, who is it? Sean Fitzgerald in the last show was, yeah. Oh, there's Andre the Giant there, right? That's from 84, I think. So I bought it in 84, or I got it in 84.

So that was my era of wrestling. It was like mid-80s. I'm looking at a big beer stein with Andre the Giant on it. There you go. So Rowdy Roddy Piper would be my rod of choice if I had to pick a rod. So great name. Good choice. Great voice.

Thank you. Right before I mention a couple of the other sponsors, I have a tweet from Raging Ronic. Raging Ronic? I hope I have that right. So Rod's celebrating his Dirty 30 at TSN, huh? Ask him if he likes the name SportsCenter better than SportsDesk.

So tell me now, right off the bat, because guys my age, we grew up with SportsDesk, and then it became SportsCenter, just like ESPN had SportsCenter better than SportsDesk. So tell me now, right off the bat, because guys my age, we grew up with SportsDesk, and then it became SportsCenter, just like ESPN had SportsCenter. Now, you don't have to tell me. I know you prefer SportsDesk. I just know you do, okay? I don't even have to ask you.

Well, I love working on SportsCenter, but unique to the roots of TSN is SportsDesk. That's how it started for me, and it'd be wrong. I mean, that doesn't mean I don't dislike SportsCenter, but where it all started, where a lot of us carved our teeth, that's original TSN stuff, sports desk, starting in 1984. I started there in 87. And it was that up until 2001 when we moved to where we currently are. So hey, onward and upward, but I have such fond memories of that show and that name and everything else about it. And even

the Black Blazer with the, I don't know if people remember, we used to have Black Blazers with an old school TSN black and gold crest on it. I think the Gino Reda mug made a comeback recently. I heard some of your podcasts with Gino, by the way. I was listening to you. That was great. And Jay, I don't know, was it Jay or Dan? Who's the Jay I think was supposed to try to score me one. I guess they're the guys behind that endeavor.

They started all that with the Trade Center and everything else. That's classic. I don't even have a Gina Retta mug. I don't know who. Well, if you don't have one, I don't deserve one. Oh, we've got to work on getting one. We should get our own printed. Great.

So, by the way, I have my own theory on why Sports Desk became Sports Center. But do you want to tell me the official company line? Like, what was the official? Well, I don't know the official company line. The only thing I've assumed Mike is, uh, ESPN owned a, uh, owned or still does own a part of TSN as much as any foreign company could. And, uh, I think they wanted to, at the time they were looking for international branding, like they were with Deportes in Mexico. And I think they, I don't know the details. I don't know if they wanted to call it ESPN Canada, change the name, and this is all hearsay. I have no information on this at all.

They didn't send out a company memo or something? No, no, no. These are the rumors that I heard. One day you just showed up for work and it said SportsCenter. So I don't know if that, I remember hearing a rumor that they had wanted to do that. But anyway, I don't know if it was a compromise, but it was okay. You keep the brand TSN, but we want to call it SportsCenter. And of course, up here, we spell our center R-E, not E-R.

So we used to joke about it. And even our friends at ESPN would joke as well that SportsCenter R-E is as opposed to SportsCenter E-R. But that I thought were the roots of it when we made our move down to Dagen Court where we currently are. And that was in 2001. Yeah. And because, you know, the spelling is different, but it sounds the same, obviously. So I think it's you have, you know, ESPN has so many like be it.

I don't know. Name it. LeBron James. So LeBron James is saying you're watching SportsCenter or whatever. Well, you know what? And I say this for sentimental reasons, Sports Desk. But as we grew, that definitely helped our image, especially those who were fans of ESPN as well. The music, the look, there was a lot of help that we got from ESPN as well, I believe. Once again, that's not something I was involved in. But I mean, hey, the show has definitely grown, improved, and gotten more big time over the years. No question. And you're okay if old-timers like me call it Sports Desk?

I still have friends that say, you're still doing the Sports Desk. I see you do CFL part of the year. You're still doing the Sports Desk, though, right? Not just Sports Desk. The Sports Desk. The Sports Desk. Absolutely. That's like when they say, hey, are you on the Twitter yet?

Yeah, exactly. Get on the Facebook. All right. So you've already mentioned the beer that's going home with you. Enjoy. Thank you. Also, Chef's Plate. And they want you to eat healthy.

Okay. They don't want you to worry about meal planning. So basically, they're going to send you two, actually. They're going to send you two meal kits to whatever shipping address you give me after the show. And you are going to be able to put this together because there's an easy-to-follow recipe with this pre-portioned, locally-sourced, farm-fresh ingredient kit.

So this is coming to you, Rod Smith, not Rod Black. He doesn't get it, just Rod Smith. He doesn't get it until he comes on, right? Has he been on? He hasn't been on. Oh, he hasn't been on, so. I'm waiting for the mustache to grow back.

Is that in development? Do you have an update on it? I don't. on. Oh, he hasn't been on. I'm waiting for the mustache to grow back. Is that in development? Do you have an update on it? I don't. He had that for so many years. Rod Black, Chris Schultz, Gino Retta. It's still hard to picture any of those guys without mustaches. Gino got lucky. I actually was going to.

And Jim Van Horn was here. Oh, and Jim. I mean, the most famous mustache in the network's history. He's got it now, but it's white now. That's the difference. But he's still got the mustache. So if anyone else wants two free plates of chefsplate.com. That sounds wonderful.

And yes, I should be eating healthier. So for sure. Yeah, so literally, I'm going to send you an email with a link to the current menu. You pick your two favorites and send me a shipping address, and I'll take care of you. Okay. And anyone else wants to go get two free plates, they go to chefsplate.com and use the promo code Toronto Mike. Do it up. And if anyone else wants to help

keep this going, so there can be more in-depth interviews with Rod Smith and Gino Redas and all these wonderful personalities that we know and love, go to patreon.com slash Toronto Mike

and give what you can or what you will and help keep this thing going. Can I ask you a question? Yeah, of course. Because I know I don't mean to flip the tables here. It's a natural instinct to interview as well, just like you have. I'm ready.

How did this start and what's the basis of your passion for Toronto Media? Okay, well, I had the blog Toronto Mike since 2002. Right, so you've had that that long. That long, and that was back when there were so few blogs. And then I got in on that. And I've been doing that since. I still do it almost every day, torontomike.com. But the podcast, okay, so I helped Humble and Fred do their podcast, which they do it

every day, five days a week. They podcast from a studio. And talk about Toronto Media Legends, too. Those two. So I actually just wanted to help them get heard. And they knew how to create, like, audio content, but they had no idea how to syndicate it in this thing called podcast.

Right. So I've been working with them since 06, when nobody knew what a podcast was. So it was like, you know, nowadays, at least that struggle seems to be over. People know what a podcast is. So I helped them with their back end, the XML and the whole back backend of the syndication process. And I would go in actually at the beginning,

I was in there every day, kind of sitting in with them as they recorded every day. And I literally like, so they started, I guess, five years ago, last October, and I would watch them do their thing. And I thought like, Hey, you know what? I got a, I got a crappy voice and I've never done anything like this. What if I bought some gear and tried to do it myself from my basement? You know what I mean? It was basically like I just felt like leaving my comfort

zone and trying, can I have a 60-minute conversation with someone I just met? You know what I mean? I think it's terrific and I love the way technology has evolved that you can do this and the whole basement idea. I've done some voiceovers in my own basement. My setup is not as nice or elaborate

as this. I do have some soundproofing under the stairs, but it's been good enough. It's amazing now you can get very good quality sound. I think it's terrific what you've done. The shows sound great. I've listened to several of them now. That's good to hear because I used to ask if people had listened and it got really awkward because they'd give me this look and i knew they had i had read i yeah

i'd read i was familiar with your blog before your podcast so but um but yeah absolutely i i think it's outstanding and the root of this essentially is that i'm a curious cat who like just wants to ask questions and converse with people like you and that's so and i mean how does a regular joe like i've never worked for any mainstream media company in any form, no Rogers or Bell or anything in the back end there. How do I get somebody like a Ron McLean

or a Rod Smith or a Strombo or a Maestro Fresh West? How do I get these people to visit me and sit there and answer all my questions for like, you know, some of these go... Bob Elliott was here for two hours. Yeah. You know?

Great man. He's great. Yeah. I could have done that. Just vast baseball knowledge. But you know what? And the answer to your question is, which it's funny because you ask that rhetorically, but it amazed me in the early days when you just assume people would say no.

How do you do that? You ask. And the worst thing they could say is no. You're absolutely right. And you notice, once you get a couple of known people, it almost validates it a bit, like, oh, maybe this isn't some crazy guy who's going to lure me in his basement. You know what I mean? Yeah, quick, you know Mike Zeisberger?

Yeah, of course. Toronto Sun. Well, Zeis and I, we go back to Ryerson Radio Days, Campus Radio, CKLN, and that's back in 1983, 1984, around then. Well, Zyze decided, can you get me media? I was sports director at CKLN, and no courage at all when it came to

asking big-name people for interviews. I just assumed the answer would be no. And he said, the Dallas Cowboys are playing in Detroit. I would like to get a media credential to go down there and interview Tom Landry, the legendary, he's since passed away, coach of the Dallas Cowboys. The hat. And I thought, and I said, sure, Mike, sure, no problem.

I'll get you the credential all along thinking there's no way he's going to get an interview with Tom Landry. Well, he went down there and he comes back with his cassette recorder and he's got this one-on-one interview with Tom Landry. And Mike's story is he was so nervous, his hand was shaking. So Landry, just picture him with his fedora on and everything else, saying, son, it's okay, putting his hand on it. But I thought, hand shaking.

My hand, I mean, he had the guts to go down and actually ask for this interview, and he got it. And I thought, that's the lesson learned. Just what you're saying, ask. A lot of people say yes. And I've even thought, like I was, so just when the outdoor game was at BMO Field, like a couple weeks ago

or whatever, and I was, my normal lunchtime ride takes me by BMO Field. So I'm biking by and I see there's like a trailer outside BMO and it said,

media credentials. Like this is a sign. And I thought to myself, for a moment, I thought like, you know, I got a podcast and a blog. Like what if I went in and sought media credentials and cover this thing?

I didn't actually do it. But I thought, what's the difference now? Almost like now there's a blur. A lot of people with blogs, with podcasts, get accredited now. Right. I think that's, in many ways, it has been the last few years, the new world. And I bet you, once again, I bet you if you had asked or arranged, if you gave them enough time to get you something, I'm sure you could get accredited.

Next time. I'm going to do that next time. I'm going to just, just for even just to write about the experience, like can a regular schmo get media credentials? You should do it. Yeah, I'm going to try it. So you're telling me a bit about CKLN there, and I know you joined TSN in 1987. So help me a little bit in what led you to TSN in 87, a little bit of the backstory as you as a sports journalist. with the likes of Keith Pelley and Joel Darling. They were good friends in school and several other friends that I still have to this day.

And Keith, who used to run Rogers Media, is now on the European Golf Tour. And he used to, he had years at TSN. Keith has done a lot. He was my contact at TSN. He was the assignment editor at the time. And Scott Moore was actually running the newsroom. I think he was the main producer.

And those are the early... Those are big names in Canadian sports media. Back then, they were right out of school. And this was a fledgling new network that Labatt's had put on the map. And they started in 84. And so I think I first had an interview in 86. They didn't have any jobs for editorial assistant.

And then finally an opening came up in early 87. So it's funny, whoever that, that tweet that you read, it is almost 30 years in the door for me at TSN. But I, uh, uh, I got hired there in the newsroom, uh, writing scripts like, uh, like they called it then, I think the slang name for editorial assistant, which is now a story editor position, was called flugan. I don't know exactly why they called it, but we were flugans. That was the term that was used. It's a Scandinavian thing? I don't know if it was another language for flying around or something. I thought the word fly had something to do with it because you definitely flew around a lot. You were so busy, so frantic to get things to air. There were like six of us on a row taking in highlights, writing up scripts on a typewriter, for goodness sakes. I'll be an electric typewriter, so some progress there.

But still, it's so funny to think. There was a computer system, but it was very antiquated, of course. Yeah, I bet. But that's what we did. You wrote up, you basically produced your own highlight packs the same way they're still done now. And you provided the hosts, whether it's Jim Van Horn or Michael Landsberg there, who was an original, for Sports Desk. And that was how things got started. So I got my foot in the door March.

It was March of 87. I was doing a lot of curling. And I'd hardly ever watched curling before. And in the first two months there, I probably watched 50 hours of curling. I got up to speed in a real hurry. Was Vic Router there at that point Vic was indeed uh Vic was there were there were in terms of on-air people Michael um the Jim Van Horn uh Vic Router Peter Watts uh Diana McDonald I think was one of the commentators then Terry Leibel was an original and she had gone to CBC John Wells, so the original

four were John Wells, Jim Van Horn Michael Landsberg and Terry Leibel and Michael is still there and Vic's not an original, I think he came along in 85, but close to being an original as well. Is it fair to say he's the Vin Scully of curling? Can I call him Vic? Oh my goodness, yeah, any other thing

the dean of, I mean, Vin Scully he is, all of it rolled Vince Scully of curling. Can I call him that? Oh my goodness. Yeah. Any other thing, the dean of, I mean, Vince Scully, he is all of it rolled up in one of curling. He's the man. He's the legend in that sport, especially for TSN's coverage. I won't give his name, but I have a friend in the industry who knows all of you sports

across your paths at one point or another. And once in a while, we'll be talking and he'll be like, who's coming up? And I'll be like, oh yeah, Rod Smith is dropping by Monday or whatever. And then he'll give me a little bit like of be talking and he'll be like, who's coming up? And I'll be like, oh yeah, Rod Smith is dropping by Monday or whatever. And then he'll give me a little bit like of, yeah, he's a good guy. He's a jerk or whatever. So for you, great guy.

This is what I get. Okay, good. Yeah, good. So that's, now you can wipe your brow. I know you were nervous for a minute. I was. But then I reminded him that so far, like all my TSN guests, he said the same thing. Great guy. Like, so James the same thing. Great guy.

So James Duthie, great guy. And he is. Vic Rauter, great guy. And he is. Gene Oretta, great guy. And he is. Yeah. And I won't name this guy.

He said, they're all fantastic at TSN except for X. And I won't mention X. Yeah, he's fine. Maybe I'll tell you after. But what is it about, is that just a nature of TSN, or is it like just a Canadian thing? Is it just that typically Canadian journalists are not assholes? Yeah, I mean, the Canadian thing, I would say any Americans that I have met and dealt with,

so maybe this is not a good sample because the ones I've met and dealt with are good guys, or ladies who actually would talk to you, and the ones I've met and dealt with are good guys or ladies, you know, who actually would talk to you and the ones who are prima donnas wouldn't. But in Canada, I can't think of, it's hard for me to think anyone that I, that I in my position anyway, have not gotten along with. Some are quieter, but no jerks. And as far as TSN goes, it's been a great experience that way.

So I'll be curious to hear who that name is. Yeah, I'll tell you. But sometimes, you know how it is. Sometimes I might, and friends have told me this too, that you wouldn't necessarily see it. People see you and they work with you and they respect you,

so they'll treat you well, but you have no idea. They may treat other people poorly. I don't know. It's not something I've seen. Well, one tactic some people use, yeah, they have like multiple, I want to say personas, but masks

maybe. Maybe. Yeah, maybe the mask Rod Smith gets. Oh, you have no idea. You know? And then maybe the one like the closed door meeting with someone who works with you differently. Maybe. You never know. But generally speaking, and you made the point that, you know, the ones who are

assholes, you don't hear from them because they're, What I'm trying to say with this is the asshole won't say, okay, Mike, I'll come visit your basement for an hour and chat with you. Those guys say no or they don't reply at all. So my sample size of people I meet are already good guys.

Let me ask you then. Have you had anyone... Now, I wouldn't say saying, sorry, I'm not going to do it. I don't think that makes them an act no no no i've had some very polite yeah some people i really wanted uh have politely declined yeah and i don't i don't think you know and i understand that and i haven't had any nasty replies like usually i've had no answers like this and i don't know if they fall into some junk mail or if there's like i never i give them the benefit of the doubt. But some people I thought would make great guests have politely declined.

And that's cool. You don't have to come in. One guy who I'm a big fan of when he was on 102.1 as a DJ said no. And it turns out from mutual friends, he's a very private person. And I respect that 100%. Yeah. And I get that too. And to me, he's a very private person, you know, and I respect that a hundred percent. Yeah. And I get that too. And to me, it's not what you do, it's how you do it.

It's not what you say, it's how you say it. Right, right. And this applies even back when I was a reporter and there'd be people like Jack Morris or Dave Steeb or George Bell that I'd try to deal with when I was in my early Blue Jay reporting beat. I'd been turned down for interviews before and almost liked these guys even more. Not those guys, mind you.

I gave you that list for a reason. But there have been others who've turned me down for an interview and almost made me feel good about it. Just sorry, I really can't today. And I thought, that's fine as long as you're... Because I used to... I don't know, it's part of my nature, I think. Probably overly sensitive, and in that business you can't be.

But I used to get my stomach in and not going down there sometimes in the early 90s or even late 80s when I first started, as I say, as a reporter. Because some of them would berate you or the look they would give you for having the audacity to even ask them for an interview. And I remember walking away from that angry thinking, you don't have to be that way. I mean, just say no. You don't have to make me feel like an idiot for asking you. Because, oh, I remember the sneer Dave Steeb used to give me. George Bell, actually, it's kind of funny when I look back at it. He'd give you the runaround.

He had such disdain for media that he would tell you he'd do it. So you'd keep your hopes up. I'd call back to the desk saying, I'm going to get him. He's going to do it. He said in a half hour, he's just got to go eat and go stretch or something. And then he's going to come back. Well, of course he'd come back's just got to go eat and go stretch or something. And then he's going to come back. Well, of course he'd come back and talk to someone else.

And then he'd say, and then he would. But that was the cash days, right? Like, did you have no cash in your hand? There was a, um, there were certain people there was, it's funny, CTV owns us now, but, uh, CTV was paying for interviews for their broadcast. And, uh, there was a bit of a tie in with Labatt's and TSN and TV Labatt did both CTV was paying for interviews for their broadcast. And there was a bit of a tie-in with Labatt's and TSN.

And TV Labatt did both CTV and TSN games. Right. So the players would get a little bit confused. And they always got 50 US for doing a CTV interview. That's right. That's right. And I remember once getting an interview. And I forget which player it was, whether it was Tom Henke or Dwayne Ward or somebody.

But at the end of it, they said, hey. I was like, yeah. Hey. What? Where's my 50 bucks? there was Tom Henke or Dwayne Ward or somebody, but at the end of it, they said, hey. I was like, yeah, hey, what? Where's my 50 bucks? I don't pay for interviews anyway. They got all PO'd and whacked. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Oh, that's funny.

So that kind of undermined it, I think. Those names you dropped, though, maybe it's because I have the Bob Elliott fresh in my head still, the two hours, and I went hard on that era of Blue Jays. And yeah, although he ended up with a great relationship with George Bell, he ended up writing the book, the George Bell book. Yeah.

But yeah, he dropped the same names, especially Dave Steve and George Bell. And I'm sure Jack Morris too. But where they were just cantankerous, like just difficult people. Well, the thing is with George Bell's an example I could give. We were talking about different members of the media. Might treat me well, may not treat you well, or vice versa.

Depends on who they're dealing with. With George, I think that's the way it was. And I was certainly green back then. And, you know, sometimes you got to cut your teeth a bit. You got to be around for a while before they respect you. And I understand that. I really do. I mean, and that happens in the media game a lot too. I mean, it's not fun for a fresh green reporter to be around for a while before they respect you. And I understand that. I really do. And that happens in the media game a lot too.

It's not fun for a fresh green reporter to be going down there nervously holding a mic trying to get an interview because there are some athletes who will like to help you out and there are other ones who are like, who's this? Okay, I'm going to give them a hard time. I'm going to give them short one-word answers to their questions and you better have something else locked and loaded in the chamber to ask because it's going to be like rapid fire i gotta be honest i can't imagine a maple leaf

being cantankerous like that uh well okay well you know what's interesting is i mean i've been on the desk for years but i was a reporter that's what i did when i started there and i for about five six seven eight years um and the leaf run of uh you know, The Pat Burns, right? Yeah, the 93-94 era, right up until 96, and I did a lot of Leafs, and on the road with them as well at playoff time. And you're right. I can't think of, there was one, Glenn Anderson could be difficult.

They acquired him in the 93 run he was around. I think he was dealt before the 94 run for Mike Gardner, who was actually one of the best. Mike Gardner and Paul Molitor were like the two nicest people you could ever... Paul Molitor was an as far as like star players being a gem to the media. And well thought out answers and everything else.

No, for the Leafs, Doug Gilmore was great. Wendell Clark was great, but they didn't... The media coverage was so persistent, you could see they got tired of it. I remember one time, Wendell was coming off a back injury and he and I hadn't

been doing an awful lot then, so he didn't know me. And I remember Wendell and he was nice, but his answers were so short. This is a lesson you learn as a reporter. I remember I had my little notebook here of questions I want to ask Wendell. It was kind of a no-no.

Have it all in your head. I mean, talk it through. Don't be looking down at your notes or anything. All these little green rookie mistakes. And anyway, I asked him the first question. I hadn't even thought of what my next question would be. I thought he'd just pontificate for 30, 45 seconds and I'll work it out. His first answer was two seconds.

And there was this pause and television cameras rolling and I'm, what the hell am I going to ask him now? So I remember just stumbling through it and he just, and I always remember this, Neil Joshi who was there and working at CFRB, he had a lot of stuff. He felt bad for me that I'd had so little. So even though he could only offer me audio,

I remember him offering me some audio that I could at so little. So even though he could only offer me audio, I remember him offering me some audio that I could at least put some covers, put some footage, B-roll, over the top of my TV story to help augment it. Because I had hardly anything from Wendell. He needs some meat on the bone. Anyway, so.

But I mean, all sorts of difficult situations and some people are easier to deal with than others. Yeah, so who's your favorite star? Who's your favorite star in Blue Jays first? Who's your favorite star Blue Jay? Was it Paul Molitor? I guess you already answered. Molitor would be maybe my number one ever

because he was approachable. He was fair. I remember during a World Series, I remember being turned down for an interview by him, and I understood why. It was a busy time pregame. It was that 93 World Series. But you know what?

He did it in a way that was decent and polite, and he'd given me many interviews in the past. And he was MVP that time. He was MVP. That was a remarkable, remarkable time. I mean, people talk about the Carter home run, which was amazing, but still, Molitor was outstanding. I think he batted almost 500 or something. Oh, he was incredible.

They benched John Olerud, the American League batting champion. They benched him in a National League park because of the no DH so they could start Paul Molitor. And he hit a home run, drove in three runs in that game. Yeah, that's amazing. But Molitor, the thing I liked about him was he listened to your question and he gave you

well thought out, intelligent answers. He did not give you the old Bull Durham one day at a time and give it 110%. I mean, he gave you great answers. So he'd be my number one in baseball that I dealt with. Bob McCowan has a rule on primetime sports where he won't interview active athletes

because he says they don't say anything for that exact reason. They've been so media trained. And I tend to agree because when I do hear athletes talk, with rare exceptions, it is an awful lot of, like maybe Ovechkin and a few very rare exceptions, but it's very give 110%, keep it going. It's a lot of cliches, and there's not much substance to it. Is that challenging? It is, and it is a challenge.

to the athlete though, how do we, and I say we in the broadest terms now in television, in radio, in, um, in blogs and podcasts and Twitter and everything else that goes into this, how do we treat an athlete that says something outrageous? And if they don't back it up, I mean, they are vilified and I can, I gotta be honest with you. I mean, I, and it's a hard thing to admit, given the business I'm in, I'm not sure I'd be any different if I was an athlete. Like what's in it? Yeah, it's not worth it. Yeah, is it worth all the trouble you're going to get? I mean, and often that happens.

Someone says something honest on the edge, and they get roasted for it. And mind you, everyone delights in feasting on it, right? I mean, you just do. I mean, we're in the business. We like edgy, you know, edgy soundbites and the ones that provide it. I admire them for it because they could, as long as they can back it up, they're fine. But when the day happens that they don't, I mean, everyone just pounces on them.

You're right. You're right. And even this recent presidential election, it was interesting to see like active stars like LeBron James and stuff taking like a stand politically. And I know this quote might not have happened. Like I see it all the time and I'm not convinced he ever said it, but they asked Michael Jordan about something and he said, Republicans buy shoes too. Like, so there's really no, there's no great financial incentive for a star to like pick a side and stand up for and values. I was just going to say, and then the other side of that argument would be social responsibility. Sure. Michael Jordan has been criticized over the years

for not standing up more for racial equality. And I know that certain, without getting into great detail or great opinion on that, but I can understand how with great fame and everything else comes greater expectation, I suppose, for some athletes. Michael Jordan, I think during his playing career, I think he kind of sat on the fence that way. No, he definitely, as a player,

definitely did. Recently, he's done something. I've been more outspoken now. They said the same with Tiger Woods, right? Sure. Very interesting. By the way, when did you become the anchor at SportsCenter? I got a chance I'm not sure I've spoken now. And they said the same with Tiger Woods, right? Sure. Same deal, but very interesting. By the way, when did you become the anchor at SportsCenter? I got a chance in 1995. They had just hired.

They were going through a bit of a transition growing, and they needed weekend anchors, and I had been a reporter there for several years. So they had hired in the spring, a guy from Edmonton named Darren, Darren Detition, I think his name was. No, Dutchie and I are buddies. And Gino had been around for a while. And so the weekends for a while from 1995 to about 97, the regular weekend anchors were Gino Retta and then Darren Detition and me. And that was, we rounded it, we covered off the 630 and then the 11 and the 2. It's amazing you guys are all there still. Yeah, it really is.

Especially in this industry. Yeah, you know what? And that's another thing you talk about, TSN and relationships, friendships there. It's been remarkably consistent as it's grown. There's still a lot of people there and it's nice. I mean, I've got people that are not just colleagues but friends for the past 20-plus years there. Wow. So tell me a little bit about SportsCenter, how things are prioritized.

Here's my question. And we're going to get into football in a minute because you're a football guy. The company that owns you, you're owned. The company that owns you, you're owned, you know. No, the company that pays your salary also owns the Argonauts, Bell Media, whatever the, Bell Globe Media. It's Bell. It's not Globe anymore.

It's Bell Media. It's Bell Media and Larry Tannenbaum. Okay, right. So it's really two-thirds of MLSE that owns the Argos. And TSN, as we'll get into in a minute, owns the broadcast rights, the exclusive broadcast rights to CFL games. Mm-hmm. in a minute, owns the broadcast rights, the exclusive broadcast rights to CFL games. So are those two facts factored in when you're prioritizing sporting events of the night for SportsCenter?

Do you try to move that closer to the top to promote your properties? I mean, I understand the question, and I'd be lying if I said that there wasn't at least some consideration to those things. Although for CFL, CFL on SportsCenter, I mean, I think it's improved. Uh, the coverage of it has improved, uh, in the past year and bear in mind too, uh, I'm wearing the CFL hat, not, not so much the SportsCenter hat during the season. Right. the season. It's different now when we have a story like Darian Durant going from Saskatchewan

trading his rights to the Montreal Alouettes, which to me is a very big story because in the CFL circle and maybe to those outside the CFL of more interest in the Leafs or the Blue Jays, that might affect their decision-making as to how big a story it is or where it belongs in the show. But in terms of, are you asking, like, how our coverage of the arc goes? So let's say something like that happens in the CFL. And let's say Batista signs today with, let's say he signs with the Blue Jays today. Yeah.

I think he might have signed, because I saw a Stroman tweet, a Marcus Stroman tweet. There's a report out that he signed a tweet. Right, so Marcus Stroman thinks he signed with the Jays. I'll be shocked if this didn't happen. So knowing, and I'm very naturally curious about this Bell Rogers world we now live in. So Rogers owns the Blue Jays. They have that story. I know what you're saying for what I like.

And I'm not just, I don't know at the higher levels, the higher boardroom levels, I don't get involved in that. I know as a fan and I know what I like and what I care about. To me, you go with the biggest story that impacts the most people that are watching your show. Now I know as a fan and I know what I like and what I care about. To me, you go with the biggest story that impacts the most people that are watching your show. Now, I know we've been criticized before for being Toronto centric, but the fact remains, there are a lot of there, we do have a lot of

viewers in this area that care about the Leafs and the Blue Jays and the Blue Jays. It's more of a national phenomenon anyway. Yeah. In Seattle, half the guys going to Seattle Mariner Blue Jay games are wearing Blue Jay hats and they're not coming from Toronto. They're coming from Vancouver. Yeah. In Seattle, half the guys going to Seattle Mariner Blue Jay games are wearing Blue Jay hats and they're not coming from Toronto. They're coming from Vancouver.

Right. Absolutely. But I mean, to me, a bigger story, I myself, even though I like the CFL, if you're talking about a big Blue Jay story and a mediocre CFL story, I would not be pushing for the CFL story first. But by the same token, if it's a big CFL story,

I also don't want to hear, well, we don't have would not be pushing for the CFL story first. But by the same token, if it's a big CFL story, I also don't want to hear, well, we don't have as many CFL fans watching, for example, and I'm just, I'm making stuff up now. Yeah, of course. But any kind of debate that way. I mean, it's interesting. I like to think as much, I like to think myself, you know, through the prism of the sports fan and what they care about and what I care about and what I think, you know, is most important

when you prioritize. But quite honestly, and I've had, I get a lot of, you know, a lot of stuff on Twitter about this, about maybe not so much about leads, but about content in the show. And I don't have that big a voice in it. I mean, I pick my spots if I think this should be a lead or this belongs in the first block of the show.

But quite honestly, we have a lot of producers. They meet assignment people. There are big meetings every day about organizing the order of the show. You're not making that up as you go along? No, yeah, right, exactly. But I tend to be at a certain point. I pick my spots, but I tend to be a good soldier and I look at the lineup and say, okay,

and I'm going to make it work. I mean, so that's how it works. Okay. Let's get into the CFL here. So, because on that note though, do you hear from fans of the CFL that the other guys are like suppressing CFL news because they don't have the broadcast rights and they don't own a team in the league? Have you heard that from fans? It's the unfortunate byproduct of one organization owning all the broadcast rights so that the other organizations might say, well, we don't own it, we don't have a stake in it, our competitors actually do, therefore we're not

going to pay as much attention to it. I think for the sake of the league, that's unfortunate. And I think it's more, I think it's certainly incumbent on the league to try to try harder to market their product to everybody and not just rely on one media source. But hey, I get it. I see how it works.

I mean, I don't, I haven't personally observed that an awful lot. I find once I'm involved in CFL season, I am so completely engrossed in it and what we do that maybe my scope gets a little bit narrower on anything going on outside of our coverage of the Canadian Football League. Although I should point out there are, scope gets a little bit narrower on anything going on outside of our coverage of the Canadian Football League. Although I should point out, there are several good reporters outside of our boundaries that cover the league.

Like Arash Badani, for example. Yeah, or Justin Dunk. I mean, these guys, they follow the league too, and they have their own contacts. And so I certainly, you know, you've got to appreciate the work that everybody is doing in covering the league. There are a lot of good, and not just, as I say, not just, you know, rivals with Rodgers, but I'm talking about reporters and newspapers right across the country that do a lot of great work. Okay, so this is good. We're into football here, which is good because you look like you played.

You did play. I did. I played university football. I played at Queen's. Before I went to Ryerson, I had a few years at Queen's, and I played there. Yeah, Ryerson had an awful football team. Well, they didn't even have one then. And you know what?

That was good for me because football and school didn't exactly mix very well for me. And that's kind of an excuse because there was ample time to get good grades. I just didn't like what I was taking at Queen's. I loved the university. Right. But I just didn't like science anymore, science and math, and I loved the university, but I just didn't like science anymore, science and math, and that required a huge commitment. But I was certainly committed to playing football.

So you played a year there, then you come to Ryerson, but then you go back for a year, right? So you end up playing two years of football at Queen's. I played two at Queen's, yeah, in 79 and again in 81. You know what's funny is it was failure in terms of school, but it was a success in terms of hard knocks, but also getting a lot of contacts and experience playing the CIS game. And later I ended up through TSN.

That probably helped me work in it as a reporter, a sideline guy, and ultimately doing play-by-play. I did eight Vanier Cups play-by-play and worked several more and absolutely loved it. And, and if I could say I salvaged something from my years at Queens, um, that certainly helped and,

and just get a better understanding of the university and university athletics and everything else. It was, uh, it really, I wouldn't trade those years in, even though it was, it was just academic uncertainty for me.

And that's why I ultimately left and I transferred over to Ryerson. Okay. And before you become host ultimately left and I transferred over to Ryerson. Okay. And before you become host of the CFL on TSN, because this happens and we'll set that up. But before that, you, you are, uh, like you did some play by play for the CFL. So, so you're, you're part of the CFL crew,

if you will, the TSN. Yeah. I actually was host of the, um, uh, that CFL on TSN show. It's interesting. The first host was Dutchie in 96, 95 or 96. And then they kind of doubled down on the show. They expanded it on the panel and everything else.

And I was actually the host of it in 97. And then I left to do some play-by-play. And so they had to bring this guy in. I always tell it to them this way, by the way, too. I was leaving to do play-by-play, so they had to hire someone else to replace me. So they pulled this guy in from Vancouver, Duthie, I think his name was, James Duthie. So James actually came in and he did it for a few years. And I don't know whatever happened to him. Anyway, and then Dave Randolph took over

from James. James and I actually hosted SportsCenter for about a year after Dutch and I had. But there's been a few. And then Dave Randolph, of course, he carried the ball for years. I think 13 years he did it. And then I got a chance to come back and do it again. So it's been fun. So Dave left to join Rogers. Yeah.

And you took over as host. Yeah. Which, from where I sit, was a very popular choice. I think you were a smart choice. Thanks. There was very little a smart choice. Thanks. There was very little negative, not that guy. I noticed Rod Black, he's a bit of a polarizing guy.

Some people dislike Rod Black for whatever reason, but there's not a lot of Rod Smith hate going on in cyberspace. Oh, well, I'm pleased to hear that, but to be honest with you, I'd be too afraid to check. I'll check thank you. Yeah. But you know what? And I don't, and I didn't know that about Rod, but I deliberately avoid all of that stuff.

He's in good company though. There's lots of. Oh my goodness. I was, you know, I, you get Joe Buck, Al Michaels, Chris Collins, where the Baron Troy Aikman. I mean, all these guys are apparently dummies on Twitter. And you're talking about the cream of the crop in the business. You know, I just don't. I can't.

Unfortunately, I can't take a lot of that stuff too seriously. Everybody has an opinion. And I think you know or your employers know if you're doing a good job or not. You're right. I mean, and what is your Twitter game? I like Twitter, but it really depends who you follow. If you start paying attention, some people are just on there to hate. It's just a negative cesspool. And I remember getting into a

conversation with several people, many athletes, on how they deal with it. I don't like it. I don't like gratuitous negativity. Just people that are angry at the world and just feel like you made a mistake. People make mistakes all the time. I mean, I've made a ton of them.

And to me, if you raise your hand and you own it, and yeah, that was a mistake. I mean, it should stop there. I mean, well, you know, we're talking about mistakes in the world of fun and games here. Well, when Friedman made a mistake. Oh, my goodness. A swing event. He blew it and he owned it. That guy, he is an absolutely wonderful human being.

He's an outstanding broadcaster. He's brilliant. I remember him when he was a cub reporter at Toronto Star just doing some freelance work during the lockout of 94. And I thought even back then, this guy's got something going on. He's going to do very, very well in the business. And what happened in Brazil, and as someone who had been there in that seat before, and you're trying to fill up the shoes of Steve Armitage,

and under his circumstances, Steve, unfortunately for health concerns, it was only two weeks before that Elliott got thrown in that situation. I thought he did a wonderful job. I think I know, and I also like the way he handled it. That was really tough, I mean, what happened there. But, you know But you move on. And the nice thing is, he got, for all the, I suppose, negativity, I saw a lot of nice things.

And I know I sent him a nice email. A lot of people were very supportive because he is, you talk about good guys in the business. And there's another one. I'm glad to see the way people responded after all of that had happened. I'm glad to see the way people responded after all of that had happened. Well, on my feed, it was overwhelmingly supportive of Elliot on my feed. Maybe I'm following the right people.

That's what I would say. But he blew it. It was a big race. He blew it. And watching that in real time, I felt terrible. He's been here, so that's my relation with Elliot. I've had a good 90-minute chat with the man. But in real time, I know he's blowing it. It's clear he's got the wrong guy.

You're kind of yelling at the TV. He called it like he saw it. He saw it wrong. You know, and that's why I'm asking you. You know what? Someone who has sat in the seat and called those things? I had Brent Hayden winning a bronze medal

instead of a silver in London. And I have my, I could give you the excuse, except no one wants to hear the excuse. What is the excuse? Give it to me. Okay. There's a system called CIS, a computer information system that you also rely on in close races touching at the wall. A lot of us, I mean, in his case, and certainly in mine, didn't have a lot of race calling

experience being thrust into this. Once again, and he would tell you this too, that's an excuse, y mean, in his case, and certainly in mine, didn't have a lot of race-calling experience being thrust into this. Once again, and he would tell you this too, that's an excuse, yada yada, no one wants to hear about it. Well, that's the reason. But you know what, fair enough, I could say this just between us, no one else listening. So the CIS system at 50, this is a 100-meter free,

and had Hayden, and I leaned on it, I leaned on a technology I shouldn't have been leaning on. I mean, there was another option. It was their actual, they had an actual score clock with times and ordinals and everything else who was more instant than the system that I was leaning on. And, you know, you live and learn. After I made the mistake that night, I never made it again.

But at the 50, it had him in third place. And so he made the turn at 50. He came back, and as soon, I was in the habit of, and usually it was instant. As soon as they touch electronic timing, you look down. You can't tell at the wall. They're touching at the same time. No, no, you can't tell. So you can't, I mean, to separate first, second, third. In this case, it was the silver and the bronze. And so he touched at the wall. I knew he had a medal, and I looked down, and when I looked down, the number I saw beside him,

the ordinal, was three, so I said bronze, and as soon as I said it, it changed, and it went to two, and I got roasted for that. That's a shame you got roasted for that, because that one doesn't sound so bad to me. But I mean, you know what? But I did. They gave me a chance to rebroadcast the call later on. I mean, they do get a chance to rebroadcast the call later on.

I mean, they do get a chance to fix it up. And I felt, and the thing is, you go home, at best you can have four or five hours sleep. I remember doing diving as well. It's a grueling pace for about a week, week and a half. And I didn't sleep that night for that, thinking, you know, I gave them the wrong, and the thing is, I was able to redo it,

redo the broadcast and silver medal. Yeah, yeah for everything else they give you a chance to redo it to redo the call and um and uh but even at that i didn't and and i but you live and learn i thought at that point in time i will never lean on that again i know a better way and and i did it but it's it's that kind of experience that i look that. If someone else has, you know, if, for example, he is led to believe that one racer is in lane four instead of lane five, if they get mixed up, and those are the speed lanes, those are the two, your top qualifiers go in the middle lanes.

If he has reason to think, if someone else has led him to believe that they're in the opposite lanes, you don't have time to check. You're calling a race. You don't have, you know, all I'm saying is, and I can hear all the people saying, I don't care, you're a professional. You know what?

They're right. So, okay, raise your hand. A mistake is made and you move on. You live and you learn. And to me, the one thing that was important to me is I learned in my own case, I learned a very good lesson and I didn't have a problem after that. So, I mean, or I didn't, I knew what I would do case, I learned a very good lesson and I didn't have a problem after that.

I knew what I would do differently, I should say. Just this last weekend, a Dallas Stars fan named Rob linked me to the original Bob Cole call of Brett Hull's Stanley Cup winning goal. In 1999. Yeah, 1999 or 2000. 1999. Stanley Cup winning goal. In 1999. Yeah, 1999 or 2000.

1999. Okay. And, you know, it's been, so the original call, Modano scores. This is, Bob Cole made a mistake. He said Modano got it.

It was really Brett Hall. And apparently, it's been edited for future broad, and so this, just this weekend, I became aware that, you know, commentators would be editing mistakes for future...

Well, to me, it's not. That was the only experience that I ever had of it. Right, right. And I suppose... It would have to be a pretty significant era. By the way, I wasn't aware of that one,

the Bob... Yeah, I wasn't until this... It's funny you mentioned it, only this last weekend. And I don't think... I don't mean to suggest it's very common. I think sometimes mistakes just live on. I guess if it's going to be an iconic moment, I mean, it's unfortunate that it ever comes to that, but I do get it.

I know when you're in that chair, you just, for the sake of austerity, you just wish you had a do-over. You wish you had one chance to, you know. Well, Elliot was said it best. I think he really owned it where it's just, you could tell it was really wearing on him like he couldn't sleep and he just felt bad for the guy because you're right. If you think the four and five are swapped, you don't have time to adjust. You think that's

Ryan Lockheed and that's the way you're going to call it. At that point, there is as I say, things are happening so fast that there is no time. I mean, there's really no time without help to get that straightened out's really no time to, you know, without help to get that straightened out. So, and you're right, the way he handled that, I mean, and I have a lot of respect for him and a lot more after the way he handled all that, because all I could think of

having a taste of it too, was just how tricky that would be and how, and it's how unsympathetic some people are. That's the part that gets my back up. Like they've never made a mistake in their life. But let's tell people at home why you have such an interesting perspective on this because you were

in London for the 2012 games doing play-by-play from the Aquatic Centre. So yeah, you literally had that gig in 2012. And it was turned out to be, and I didn't have a big background in swimming, that turned out to be, and I didn't have a big background in swimming.

That turned out to be a career highlight. That was, it was, it was just a wonderful experience. It really was. In your Olympic, you cut your teeth, if you will, in the Olympics. So in 2010 in Vancouver, you're doing long track speed skating. Yep. At the Oval in Richmond and working with Katrina LeMay Doan and that also to be able to work in Olympics.

And I'd never, I'd been to Olympics before, but never got a chance to do play-by-play and devote myself to just one single sport as opposed to being all over the place. Right, right. And it was, and to do that in Canada, to start was, and to call a Canadian medal, Canadian gold medal.

Yes. In Canada was, and once again, that's not something I'll ever forget either. So this, okay, and tell me if I'm wrong. You win, well, this I know I'm right. You win the first ever Canadian Screen Award for Best Sports Play-by-Play Announcer in 2013. What was that for?

They used, that was for London Olympics. So that was for the swimming in London. Wow. That's the new Gemini, right? Yeah, they amalgamated some awards, and that used to be the Gemini. No, that was, I mean, hey, let's not kid ourselves. I mean, I enjoy it.

I was very appreciative of it, but I think the other nominees were like Jim Houston and Bob Cole. So you're talking about like legendary guys, and Jim Houston, who I used to work with. I mean, to be recognized for that one event, yeah, that was thrilling. It was really, really nice. And once again, I'll always treasure that,

but I'm not, I haven't really, with a few exceptions, I haven't really established myself as so much long-term as a play-by-play guy. It was, I almost feel like I was jumping in and doing it for a bit and it was just so much fun to do. Well, I noticed you brought your Screen Award with you. You're holding it in your hand right now. There it is.

It's kind of shaped like a Great Lakes brewery, Canuck Pale Ale beer can, but no, I have it proudly in my office in my basement, in the home office in Scarborough, and yeah, it's a nice keepsake. It's a fond memory. that'll, it's, that's a nice,

it's a nice keepsake. It's a fond memory. All right, let's get you back to CFL and TSN here. So you're the host of CFL and TSN. CFL is, gets great, the CFL and TSN gets monster ratings. Am I right? This is a.

Very good ratings. Yeah. I mean, on average, I would say a bad rating would be, you know, probably half a million and a good one would be over a million. I mean, regular season games, it gets good numbers. I mean, we're off in six, seven, eight hundred thousand, depending on who's playing. If Saskatchewan Roughriders are playing, despite their record, that'll even boost it more. But sure.

Yeah. Which is interesting. So that's OK. So let's talk about since it is Toronto, Mike, and I live in this city, let's talk about Toronto for a minute. So I always look at the numbers because I'm always curious about things like okay there's a Raptor game there was an Argo game and I'll look and I'll say oh you know unless it's a I'll see oh uh the Argo game got way more viewers on this numerous uh PPM what would we call this now whatever the ratings are for TV call these days I I've never quite understood them myself. I know it's numerous.

I think anyway, so that, so, and then somebody, now TFC will have a big run. So except for their playoff games recently, they would get very poor ratings numbers. And then people will be like, look, that Argo game drew like whatever, 10 times as many people as that TFC game that was on, whatever.

So I'm always looking at these numbers. And so clearly from the numbers, CFL is popular in Canada. So my question is, these ratings we all see, and tell me what you know, and try to be honest with me, that these are national ratings. So across Canada, very popular. We never see, like, I always

want to see, like, okay, what about Toronto specifically? How many people in Toronto are watching the Argos? You know what? I don't know. I'll look into that breakdown, but it is my belief that there is interest watching the Argos? You know what? I don't know. I'll look into that breakdown. But it is my belief that there is interest in the Argos, just not a lot of interest in going to the games. And I would say in the case of TFC, where they're actually a good model for the Argos,

is they have a passionate fan base, most of whom, it seems, go to the games. Or I should say most, but many of them do. I guess it's inverted, right? Yeah, they have a...'s inverted, right? Yeah. They have a. I mean, maybe proportionately. I mean, I'm not, I'm not saying that anyone who

cares about TFC goes to the games and that's it. They do have viewers, not as many viewers as an Argo game would get, but what they get at their stadium experience, obviously the Argos have some work to do to get up to the level of TFC. But in terms of for an Argo game, here's the way I would put it. Maybe, I don't know how the

2016 numbers compare, but historically, the Argos on television, when they're playing, they do well. I mean, if you compare them to other teams, Saskatchewan has always been, you know, it's crazy smaller market, but I mean... There's only like one million people in that whole province, right? But people are so invested in that team, right the country too. It's their Maple Leafs.

Oh, absolutely. And it's not just people in Saskatchewan, it's Ryder fans all over the country that are watching. But I think there, there are Argo fans. There are people that still, um, as I say, I don't know what the proportions are. Um, but there are a lot of people that will, you know, watch an Argo game. And, and unfortunately, you don't get the same proportion coming down and going to the stadium. But hopefully in time, if they continue to work on that at BMO, that'll change and their crowds will go up. And how much of that has to do with poor performance on the field?

Well, I think some of it, and that's another thing about 2016. That was not a good Argo team. I mean, Ricky Ray got hurt again. They just didn't seem... They had a decent start to the season, but it seemed where they needed to be best was at home, and the first half of the season at home, well, really the entire year was dreadful. I don't know how many home games they won, one or two.

They only won five, I think. It was a bad, it wasn't not entertaining football when they played at home, and when you're trying to establish in a new stadium, it really was the perfect storm for the Argos. It did not go well at all. And it just got worse towards the end. In fact,

I think they pretty well ran the table with losses once they got into the fall. It was ugly. And it's got to get better. And I'll be curious to see what they do next season at quarterback, a number of other places. But, I mean, yeah, you're trying to encourage a fan base for a good game experience. You got to have a better product on the field.

No question. But did you think maybe the, were you surprised that the, just the allure of having the new stadium and being outdoors at BMO, that that didn't carry them for, it seemed like it carried them for one game. It's not the perception. It's like you had a, you had pretty, pretty

good gate. Am I surprised? I am surprised. The one thing I would say, though, is they played Monday night, Tuesday night. They played a couple of Wednesday nights. They did not play conventional summer. They rarely had a Saturday.

In the summertime, their schedule was – now, there are a couple of reasons why. They were doing final renovations to the stadium, and after the MLS season had started, so TFC was delayed getting into their stadium and because they were delayed, their home schedule became condensed. Right.

They had preferential choice, I believe, on dates. I believe so, yeah. And they knew from their experience being there to avoid, say, Indy week, for example, which was another catastrophe for the Argos. Playing during Indie Setup Week is not a good thing. And even during the X, where they tried to make that work,

although I have mixed feelings about the X, because you've got a lot of people down there anyway, and if you give free admission to the X to go to an Argo game, I don't really understand why that wouldn't work. Parking is a bit of an issue. These are the things that have to be resolved. And I agree with you. The dates, to be resolved. And I agree with you.

The dates, Monday, Tuesday night, I agree with you. It was a bad schedule. It was a bad schedule. But the problem, not the problem, now,

and I root for the Argos. I want the Argos to be successful here. I'm not even one of those dreamers that think, oh, the Argos got to go to an NFL team. I don't have these dreams.

I want the Argos to be successful in Toronto. Absolutely. But now that they, because they share the, because another team, TFC, plays at the same place

and you can say, oh look, they played a Tuesday night game and they had, whatever you can see, like 25,000 people there for that game and then the next Tuesday,

let's say, you can see, oh the Argos played and they had 16,000. So you're saying, how can you blame the night of the week? I'm not sure.

You know what? That's a good point. But the TV, what gets me, and I always have an argument with my buddy, what's the more popular team in Toronto, TFC or Argos? And he'll say, Argos, clearly, because their TV numbers are greater. Wow. But I bike, and I know you're a TSN guy, and the CFL sounds like it's very healthy in Canada. I just think it needs to be healthier in Toronto.

By the way, TSN, I mean, Bell is an investment in MLSC. I mean, TSN has an investment stake in the success of MLS as well. You're right. You're right. But I guess, so I bike along the waterfront trail. I mentioned I bike by BMO. But I bike along the waterfront trail every day in the summer, every weekday. And I look at people, I always look at the jerseys.

I see a lot of Blue Jays hats and jerseys. I can't believe the last couple of years, so many. And then I look and I'll see there's TFC stuff out there too. But what I never see, and it's like seeing a unicorn, I never see the Argos cap or the Argos shirt. I just don't see it. And this is not a scientific gauge of anything. I know where you're going with this, and that's a fair assessment.

In the city, I mean, I don't, in terms of in-game, you know, what team is trendier now in terms of its popularity, there's no question TFC has been, especially with what happened this year, and the in-game experience, I mean, if you look at, you compare the ticket sales, I mean, I get what you mean. I think with the Argos, it's part of a bigger product. It isn't just about Toronto. It's about the entire Canadian Football League for one thing.

But hey, they have, in terms of marketing and in terms of ticket sales and improving the, you know, now that they're out in the stadium where they figured they, you know, they needed to be, and I agreed with it. I thought they had to get out of Rogers Centre. It was too big, too cavernous, and I don't think the game experience was good anymore. But it's going to take some time and take some work.

To your point, I get it. But do I think—here's where I would say I'm the eternal optimist and somewhat biased, but I could see them getting it back again. I mean, I really could. I think it's going to take a few years, but I think if they turn that into an event— I think the Grey Cup, thankfully, was a good advertisement for how the Canadian Football League could look in BMO Field. I thought they had a perfect advertisement for it. They had a nice game and it was sold out.

Well, the seats were accounted for. It looked full on TV, which is what I was worried about. And I will say, I don't watch a lot of football. But I watched the Grey Cup in its entirety, and it just looked fantastic. You're right. It just looked like a great football venue. So I hope they get it back,

because you never know with these things. Like Ottawa, suddenly, red-black seems to be a cool thing in Ottawa. You know what I mean? I'll tell you, I'm from Ottawa, and I could never have seen that day. Yeah, right. Never.

There were so many jaded people in the 70s, well, more in the 80s and 90s when all that fell apart and the whole renegades. Oh, it was awful. And I thought, it's done. The league is never going to be able to go back to Ottawa. So there's always hope. That's the model. I would look at that. And you're right, they don't have Blue Jays

to compete with or whatever, or even TFC for that matter. But the fact that it's suddenly kind of a cool thing, boutique thing, like people come out and they enjoy the experience. Now they have a good team. They won the Grey Cup. That is the model. Hopefully in a few years, the Argos can be with the Red Blacks.

You don't need everyone in the city to come to the game. You need 25,000, 30,000. And they can come from Mississauga and Oakville. And you don't need everybody in the city to watch the games on TV. You need a lot less than that. I think there's room in a big city for a lot of pro sports, for a lot of things to do, a lot of ways to spend

your entertainment dollar. In this city, I mean, right off the top I mentioned The Rock, the lacrosse team, they get lost in the shuffle all the time. There's just so much going on.

But they do have a passionate fan base though, right? Yes, and that would be an example where it feels like everyone who's a fan goes to the game. I don't even know if it's on television, The Rock. I don't know.

That's how ignorant I am in rock things. I know, you don't know either. Maybe they're on TV, who knows? But I just read a press release from, we have a rugby team now. Do you know this? The Wolfpack or something? I have heard of it.

It's the first professional rugby. So there's another one coming in. The Marlies are still at Ricoh. There's just so many things competing for the Toronto sport dollar. So there's another one coming in. The Marlies are still at Ricoh. There's just so many things competing for the Toronto sport dollar. So it's always a tough go. So your crew at CFL and TSN is a great crew. These are all good people, and you enjoy working with them. Outstanding.

I mean, they're all different. And they all have their egos. They want to get their word in, and they all had good careers. And sometimes there are clashes, although they're fun clashes. And I like to think I'm the ringleader of argument. And it's a fun way to be to just get in there, start a fight, and sit back and watch it take place. And the fights are fun. I mean, I call them fights.

But everybody, you know, you throw something out there and people will disagree. And whether we're talking about, you know, food at a stadium or, you know, the manner zone or what you do in this situation on third down and how you go for it, what your short yardage play is.

And I mean, they'll argue about anything. You just throw anything out there, football or otherwise. Well, these former athletes always have that competitive spirit in them anyway. So if it comes out, and that's why I think if you get the right guy, the right former athlete as an analyst or whatever is perfect. Oh, it's good. Matt Dunagan, Milt Stiegel, Chris Schultz, my buddy, and Jock Climey, they're all buddies.

They're all very good friends and fun to work with, and they love to needle each other. They're all buddies. They're all very good friends and fun to work with, and they love to needle each other. And that, as I say, is a big... And needle me too, by the way. And Schultz is another guy who's got to bring back the mustache. Bring back the stache? I'll have to talk to him about that. I don't think he will.

And boy, he had that all through his playing days, as long as I knew him. And it looked more intimidating. And he used to be even bigger too, right? Sure, I bet. He's a big guy, but he's lost a lot of his pro weight. And boy, I remember Schultz when he came from the Dallas Cowboys, was starring with the Toronto Argonauts,

and he was just a big intimidating man with that handlebar mustache. Does Dunnigan want to come out of retirement? I think the Argos could use him. Just let me know. I'll tell you what. You see him. I remember down on the field at BMO in the end zone, and everyone wants to play catch with Matt.

And you've got to watch yourself. I don't know. Did you play much football? This is the problem. Never played football. Oh, just, yeah. Just throwing the ball around. You throw the ball around with him, your hands will hurt.

Wear some gloves. He still has a cannon, the way he throws the football. Now, his knees are bad. He doesn't run around much anymore, and he's still a physical specimen. He still has a cannon, the way he throws the football. Now his knees are bad. He doesn't run around much anymore, and he's still a physical specimen. He's really taking care of himself, and he can still gun the ball.

Cool, cool. I got a question on Twitter from Brian Carstairs. What sporting event would you like to cover live that you haven't? So he wants to know what's on your bucket list for sporting events to cover live. Oh, wow. That's a really good question. Because I have had a chance to do football live.

Probably. And let's figure out. Sorry, did you say Brian? Brian, yes. When he says cover, does he mean an event like as a reporter or play-by-play? No, I think he means play-by-play. You know what I'd love to get back doing again, just to try it out just for fun?

Well, there are two. I would love to call a baseball game. I'd love to see what that's like. And I'd love to, I did play-by-play for Toronto Marlies when they were major junior hockey. They were in the OHL. Right, the Marlboros, yeah. I did that in CKLN back in the mid-80s.

And I had no idea what I was doing. And that was my little foray into hockey play by play. And I've never had a chance to do it since. So either one of those two sports, and they're so different. The cadence, I'm a big fan of play by play guys who develop a real rhythm to what they do, their storytelling. um, who develop a real rhythm to what they do, their storytelling. And could you have two more different sports than hockey with its constant action and with baseball with its constant storytelling and a certain rhythm in that? I, I would, I'd love to see, uh, I'd love to see what I could do if I tried those out and I got a chance to, I think that would be fun, but I would

probably, uh, probably hockey play by play. I would have loved to have tried that again. The one for me, I think, and I'd like to hear you try it, is baseball on the radio. To me, that's the storytelling. Oh, fantastic. That's the best form of the medium. Anyway, that'd be fantastic. Can I tell you a story?

Yeah, of course. It was the World Basketball Championship, I believe, in Toronto, Maple Leaf Gardens, in 1994. Jim Hewson and Buck Martinez were the voice of the Blue Jays on TSN. And Jim had decided after the lockout of, well, in 1994, there was a baseball strike and then there was a hockey lockout.

So the baseball season got wiped out. The last games were in August. There was no World Series. And then hockey, lo and behold, there was no hockey that fall. They had their lockout. And I don't know if that had anything to do with Jim's decision, but he wanted to move back to Vancouver. He left Toronto. And so he was leaving TSN and he was going to do Canucks play-by-play. And that's what he did for a while, moved back to Vancouver. Therefore, there was an opening to be

the next voice of the Blue Jays on TSN, along with Buck Martinez. So I'm down at Maple Leaf Gardens watching or reporting in the World Basketball Championships. And a friend who had got to know a little bit, and he had started out and done very well at weekends, and then became their afternoon host. And I don't know if he ever did mornings, but Dan Schulman was doing very well at weekends and then, then became their afternoon host. And I, I don't know if he ever did mornings, but Dan Schulman was doing very well there and doing some ESPN radio on the weekends, I believe as well, but he was not a play-by-play guy.

And I said to him, I remember just casually chatting with him that day. So 22, 20 going on 23 years ago, are you, are you going to go for it? And he said, am I going to go for what? And I said, Jim Houston's leaving. Are you going to go for, you know, we got a play-by-play job open for baseball. And he said, no. Are you? Are you? And I said, I'm not a baseball guy.

You are. And I always thought, I always thought I'm the lone wolf here. Then Mike Ulmer, years later, did a story on Dan, and Dan brought that up. He remembered it. Now, would he have gone, like, did that make it? You never know if you planted the seed. Well, the thing is, and it was Rick Briggs-Jude at the time who was in charge of like looking

and auditioning new play-by-play guys. Right. And anyway, I'm just, I'm kidding when I say I take credit for it, but I, but the fact that in a Sun article years later, he did mention that I was saying to him, I was encouraging him to go for that. So I tease him anytime I've talked to him later.

I take great credit for his amazing career as a baseball player. I would tell that story at every single party I attended because Dan Schulman, I can't think, maybe there's no one better now. Now that Vince Scully is retired, can we say Dan's the best? I heard him doing weekend radio and never heard him before. I thought, who is this? Yeah, the Fan 590, right?

Or 1430. Who is this guy? I know. And it was a pleasure to see the way his career... I got to host Blue Jay Baseball for a couple of years. And it was Dan and Buck then, and they were fun times. That was in the late 90s. Still the best TV crew we ever had, I'd say,

was Dan Colling and Buck doing color. No, that's a fantastic story, and honestly, I wouldn't shut up about that story if I had put the kernel into Dan Shulman's head that maybe he should go for that Blue Jay announcer gig. That's fantastic. By the way, I mentioned I don't watch a lot of football. I watched the fourth quarter of the Packers and Cowboys

last night. Incredible. It really was. How about that Aaron Rodgers? He might be okay. You know this Aaron Rodgers. That was unbelievable. I was thinking, hey, we might see a Hail Mary attempt. This is what I'm thinking. I'm thinking, you know, the odds are really low on Hail Mary. They're exciting. Made for TV drama at the best. But for, you know, the odds are really low in Hail Mary. They're exciting. Made for TV drama at the best.

But for Aaron Rodgers, the odds are a little better than for everybody else. And then yeah, that completion, which in real time looked to me like no way. And then you see the replay and you realize what's the cat's name? Cook. It's a fair catch and sets up the field goal.

To me, I watched that fourth quarter and I wondered, why don't I watch more football? Because that was exhilarating. He especially is a way, I mean, Rodgers, the Packers, a way of making it exciting, but yeah, it was great. Who's going to win the Super Bowl? I think...

Tough question for the end. It is, because I think Pittsburgh beats New England. I think it's going to be Pittsburgh versus Atlanta. I will say the Atlanta Falcons. I'm going to go on the edge. I'm going to do something different because everybody's going to go New England's way. But, I mean, it'd be easy to take New England, wouldn't it?

But I'm going to go something different. I think I'll take the Atlanta Falcons finally. If you're wrong, we'll re-edit this for future broadcasts. I was going to say, let me tell you what. Once we're done, and then we'll just redo that segment. Just say all four teams and then I'll chop it up. I can't believe I just said that. You put me on the spot here, and normally I would

just say New England, but yeah, I want to be... You know what? That's one of those things that if you're wrong, you're wrong. If you're right, though, I sound like a genius. Right. And by the way, Rod, great name, great voice, and great conversation. That was fantastic. That was fun, Mike.

Thanks for having me. And thanks for the beer. No, enjoy the beer. And if you want more, let me know. We'll get you more. And that brings us to the end of our 213th show. You can follow me on Twitter

at Toronto Mike, and Rod is at Rod Smith TSN. And our friends at Great Lakes Brewery are at Great Lakes Lakes beer and chef's plate are at chef's plate CA. See you all next week. Cause everything is rosy and great Well I've been told that there's a sucker born every day