Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Ron Hawkins and Lawrence Nichols from Lowest of the Low: Toronto Mike'd #1361

Episode Date: November 7, 2023

In this 1361st episode of Toronto Mike'd, Mike chats with Lowest of the Low's Ron Hawkins and Lawrence Nichols about their new album Welcome to the Plunderdome, the CFNY 1993 New Music Search contest they lost to hHead, Art Bergmann, the new LOTL documentary Subversives and more. Toronto Mike'd is proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, Ridley Funeral Home, Electronic Products Recycling Association, Raymond James Canada and Moneris. If you would like to support the show, we do have partner opportunities available. Please email Toronto Mike at [e-mail]

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Season 5 of Yes, We Are Open. An award-winning podcast hosted by FOTM Al Grego for Moneris and Redley Funeral Home, pillars of the community since 1921. Today, returning to Toronto Mike is Ron Hawkins and Lawrence Nichols from Lowest of the Low. Welcome back, guys. Do you actually look at the waveform the whole time? You were just saying that. Oh, no, I do.

But once in a while, I click it and I look at it. Like, I'm looking at it right now just to make sure there's waveform there. Sure. And it's a good thing I did because I didn't have it when I pressed record five minutes ago. But we have it right now. This is all being recorded. How are you? Let's start with you, Lawrence.

How are you doing? I'm doing really well, Mike. It's great to be back here. Great to be back here again. How many times have you been here, Lawrence? I want to say four. This is my fourth, I think. See, I think Ron is ahead of you. I feel like Ron came without you. Yes.

Ron, how are you doing? I'm good, man. I'm riding the low wave. Is that a good thing? I'm on the crest of the low wave. Is that an oxymoron? I wouldn't think so. The wave is low. Anyway, I'm on the crest of the low, is that crest of the low wave? Is that an oxymoron? I wouldn't think so. The wave is low. Anyway, I'm feeling good. I'm lifting that up to you just because I want to get you right in front of that thing.

Okay. But you're on the high part of the low wave, which is the good part of the wave to be on, you know. Highest of the low wave. Yeah. There's a lot of activity in Lowville. Can I call it Lowville? Is that good?

I just thought about it. Okay. Yeah. I like that. Okay. Also Lowtown or, you know, Lowtropolis. Lowtropolis.

Lowtropolis, geez. There's lots going on in this world of yours, and I have a lot of ground I want to cover, and then I want to slow it right down and spend a lot of time on the new album. So my first big question, though, because I want to introduce that there's a new Lowest of the Low album

called Welcome to the Plunder Dome. So my question for you two gentlemen is this. Is this named after the Frank? Is it like an honor of Frankie Goes to Hollywood or Public Enemy? Or neither. Or Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome. So it's okay. You know what?

I just assumed because Frankie Goes to Hollywood has Welcome to the Pleasure Dome, which I'm kind of brewing in the background here, and Public Enemy, of course, has Welcome to the Terror Dome. You guys now have Welcome to the Plunder Dome, but this is a Mad Max thing. Who named this album? I don't know. I think it came up as a like making these songs i think when we're in pre-production i think maybe i realized last night lawrence there's

been a lot of people suggesting that maybe i have adhd because lawrence last night in rehearsal lawrence said i heard from behind me yeah but ron won't shut up because i'm just constantly riffing and i don't know what. So I think when we were rehearsing, doing pre-production for that song, I just yelled out in the middle of it, welcome to the plunder dome, which made sense in terms of the song. And I don't know what I was referencing. I'm sure I must have been, like all of that stuff was probably in my brain bucket.

Like a stew. A stew of welcomes, welcoming signs. So you blurred it out. And then it became a sort Like a stew. A stew of welcoming signs. So you blurred it out. And then it became a sort of a vamp. Of course, Ron has all the important thoughts in the band, so that one immediately became, hey, this is gold. Let's keep this.

And it's great. It's, I think, a really good title that sort of encompasses what all the rest of the songs were talking about. And, you know, Ron gets right to the heart of those things. And I don't know, title that sort of encompasses what, what all the rest of the songs we're talking about. And, you know, Ron gets right to the heart of those things. Oh, and I don't know.

I just think when you say it kind of does, I mean, it happened. We'll do the right now. And you sort of came out and said, Hey, we should call it that, you know,

Ron, Ron is the title guy for our, for all their albums. Um, at least in the, in the modern era. Yeah. Because since Lawrence suggested that crack static be called bad, happy. Yeah, because since Lawrence suggested

that Crack Static be called Bad Happy, he's been locked out of the... I always said, but I also followed it up with, don't say no right away. So his account got locked. Was it Bad Happy? Bad Happy. All right, so Ron, you're naming these albums,

but is Lawrence still responsible for the set lists when Louis and Lo play live? Oh, am I in trouble again? I'm in trouble again. I think. Yes.

He's a, he is a, he is the Leonardo da Vinci of set list making. All right. Love it. So it's not necessarily a Frankie goes to Hollywood thing. In fact, I'm going to just bring it down to bring in a little public enemy.

And that's Frankie. You're playing, you're playing Frankie goes to Hollywood. That's I see what you're doing. See, I'm working on a whole different level here, Lawrence. Lots going on here. He's got the whole world in his hand. I got their autograph.

I got Frankie Goes to Hollywood's autograph when they came to Sam the Record Man on Yonge Street. Relax, Lawrence. I just went to their album signing with my sister. Amazing. Yeah. And this was the heyday, right? This is the welcome to the pleasure.

Yeah, it was celebrating that album coming out. They had a big thing at Sound the Record Man, and I went with my sister. And to my alarm, she asked the bass player if she could kiss him, and he said yes. Some say if you take Frankie Goes to Hollywood and you mix it with Public Enemy, you get lowest of the low. Some have said, yes.

Some have said that. Some say, yeah. All right, we're bringing down Chuck D. By the way, much like yourselves, Chuck D. is an FOTM. He's been on the program. Great. Which is pretty exciting. Okay, so bring that down.

So much ground to cover. Where do I want to begin? I got a quick note to share with you two gentlemen from Robin who says, when will they come out west to play? And will there be a film premiere of the doc? This is going to be a gateway

to the doc because I have a few questions about the doc. But are you guys going to head out west anytime soon? Well, Robin should know that we want nothing more than to come out west as soon as humanly possible. And we are exploring ways to do that, but we have nothing concrete just yet. But it's on the absolute list of things we want nothing more than to come out West as soon as humanly possible. Uh, and we are exploring ways to do that, but we have nothing concrete just yet, but it's,

it's on the absolute list of things we want to get done in the coming year. Right now we're, we actually even like last night talking in rehearsal and with our label head, Brian Heatherman, uh, at Sonic Envy,

we've been talking about how do we cover all these bases out East, out West, Northern States, you know, some, some cities in the Northern States that we haven't been to. All that is really heavily on the agenda for 2024 to try and figure out.

Yeah, and it's all economically based. It's not that we don't want to come out west. It's simply how do we make it feasible. It's not that we think we're better than the people in the west. I don't know why you would even bring that up, Ron. Remember what I said at the beginning. Can't stop talking. I'm sort of disappointed I recorded none of the killer whale discussion,

which was a killer chat, but I have none of it on the recording here. It was a killer chat. Would you like us to recreate it? We've probably got other things to cover, but we will recreate it for anyone who writes in. Hey, you mentioned Sonic Envy. This is your current label. Yes. Okay, yes.

I paused for the affirmation. Okay, so what happened with Warner? I think last time you guys came over, you were talking about how you had sold out, like after how many decades of Lois the Lolo being, you know, the indie darling darling you guys were selling out actually you know what's interesting about that because this is how the record industry seems to work is that we were on warner i think the only reason we were on warner was because steve kane was the president as as i've referenced before george strombalopoulos

calls him the last punk rock president i think he at, at some point thought, you know, well, he came to us and said, you know, you got to make this box set. We should make a, there should be a lowest to low box set to which we all said, are we, are we dead Steve? Like, you know, it seems like such a, I don't know, such a sophisticated thing to do. So we were all shocked by the idea of that and then got really into it. And then I think maybe he thought, you know, like clearly

steve didn't sit down and go i need a yacht i better sign most of the low to warner music i think what he did was like they're a cool band they're a legacy band they have certain value system that that uh would be cool to have on warner and it was a good fit with him and so there so there we were and then steve retired and was replaced by a younger person, a younger, I was going to say a younger woman, a young person who was a woman. And we kind of all thought, I think we all thought quietly to ourselves, probably the middle-aged white rock and roll band is on the list at least, right?

It's always dangerous when your champion moves on, like Steve was the lowest low champion. So I got a call from Chris, who was our liaison guy to Warner, and he was very, very sheepish to even talk about this. So we talked for a little bit. We small talked, and then I was kind of letting him hang out to dry

because I knew he had this news to deliver. And then he finally, he did get around to it, and i just sort of stopped him before he even got in and i said chris don't worry about it we totally understand we've you know kind of been waiting for the shoe to drop no problem we understand and you know it is as it should be probably um and he said yeah man it's bummer so you guys are gonna have to come up to the warehouse and get all your stock out of here and everything and we were like i said oh yeah yeah we'll get our heads around that and blah blah blah and then i don't know how long after it wasn't very long after that we hooked up with brian at sonic envy signed with them they're

distributed by warner so i got to talk to chris again and go hey we're not actually going to pick anything up it's all we're back we're back yeah so you kind of like you you unsold out sort of uh or we resold it i don't know i don't know what we're selling now. Yeah. Okay. But you're back to indie cred. Your indie cred has been restored. I don't think it ever really went anywhere. It was always there.

No, I'm joking. You guys riffed on it. You're very funny. Press release was riffing on that whole subject. So I'm flipping it back here. I'm flipping it back.. I'm flipping it back. Rainy Robertson. Rainy's a good first name. I don't know if that's short for something, but I just think Rainy's a cool name.

Okay, Rainy Robertson says, how many times have they been asked to play subversives at a wedding and did they ever say yes? And I play a little bit while we talk about it, but I think 280,000 times thereabouts so you have so you have played subversives at a wedding or two yes yes

did we play subversives at that wedding last year or We played Bleed a little while tonight at a wedding, which seems a little odd. Yeah, it's a non-one to choose. But we did Subversives as well, right? I think. Yeah. Okay. Since I'm playing a little Subversives,

maybe I'll bring that down and just play a teaser because I got questions. I want to talk about this documentary before we get back to Welcome to the Plunder Dome. And I have a few other questions, as you can imagine imagine bring down subversives so we could play a trailer for subversives hi i'm ron Lowest to the Low. Hi, my name is Steve and I play with the Lowest to the Low. My name is David Alexander with Lowest to the Low.

I'm John Arnott from the Lowest to the Low. And that... And that was episode 1,000. To create something exceptional. It's Pavlov's dog. It's timeless. In the music that they made, you know, always intelligent, always poetic. They never did a dead knight. Shakespeare, my butt, is gotta be one of the greatest Canadian records ever made.

Who's the woman with the British accent we just heard? That's Yvonne Matzo. I saw her at the Art Bergman show. And we were like right beside each other almost. Okay, I'll get back to that. The word sellout was around every corner. I don't think they were ambitious in that way. They didn't want to be rock stars.

The low were very strong in terms of what they tried to do. They had this really great work ethic. The low is a yardstick for a lot of people's coming of age. They went four singles deep on an indie record. Like, that's fucking unheard of. Every musician gets fucked over by their label or their agent or their this or that. They're trying to create good relationships with people they can trust. I don't know that I've ever seen Ron do anything because he thought he was going to get rich doing it.

And when you understand Ron's motivation is completely not about rock stardom or money, it makes it easier to understand his actions. I'd heard that when Ron was writing Shakespearean rock pop that he wrote a lot of the songs in a very short period of time, that he's just in a really creative period. I can feel myself in those days walking around the city with a notebook on me all the time. He writes love letters to Toronto. They left so much money on the table, and that I can tell you for a fact.

It was the best time of my life, to be honest. It really was. One of the greatest bands to ever grace the land. honest. It really was. One of the greatest bands to ever grace the land. You can't write unforgettable songs if you don't have passion. Lowest of the low have unforgettable songs. They're not going to be forgotten. They're going to be rediscovered again and again and again. At least I hope they will. Yeah, the wind is cold But the smell of snow Warms me today And your smile is fine It's just like mine And it won't go away Cause everything is rosy

That's a great song, Rosy, and great. Okay, gentlemen, who did Simon Head just call you out of the blue one day and say, I'd like to make a doc about you? Like, how did this come to be? Well he didn't call us because he works with us. He's our sound guy so he probably just turned to us in the van and said this movie's

already half done you understand right? So yeah. I don't remember. It was a while ago wasn't it? Because he was working on it for a while. It was probably an email. Okay so you know Simon's been on this program but I completely forgot that detail that he worked with you. Okay, so no call required.

Still does. Still does. He's a nice guy. I went to an outdoor viewing of not the Subversives doc, but it was the Shakespeare My Butt thing that Stephen and you, Ron, did, like, kind of talking about each song. Lawrence, you were there too, of course. But going song by song, Shakespeare My Butt.

I went to a backyard viewing with Simon Head invited me to, and it was great. It was great. So you guys, I guess my couple of quick questions here. One is, did you have any editorial control, or did Simon Head have carte blanche to do what he wanted with this documentary? It was all Simon's. I mean, we wanted it that way too. Like, you know wanted to you know uh you know i think ron you even told him

he said i'm i'm saying what i'm saying you can use it all yeah my thing with him is like the minute i take the lavalier mic off yeah my control is finished yeah and uh it's funny because i don't know how many people have ever been part of a documentary uh or been you know been the foundational part of the documentary maybe uh is more to the point is that we all said that at first we don't want to have anything to do with the direction of your doc this is your film we're just you know subjects and then you know when we saw the dot when we got when the doc was finished and we saw edits of it you know just like any kind of art just like happens when we when i bring songs into the band five different guys had kind of five different

yeah suddenly we had ideas ideas of what they might have done if they were making the video and simon you know we talked to simon about that and simon talked to us about that but you know it was like that thing like we we had sort of made a certain a certain template had been set up and and i'm glad it's sim Simon's movie and those choices are Simon's and they should be, you know? And I think he even maybe not threw back in our face, but sort of,

um, strongly suggested, well, what would lowest of the low do if somebody came to them with some ideas about how to change their art? You know, we were like, Oh,

yeah. You tell me to fuck right off. I think that was the whole second chapter of the movie. It got its own cassette, I think. All right, yeah. So when you got your first viewing of this completed film, what was your reaction?

Like, maybe start with you, Lawrence. Like, what did you think of Simon Head's Subversives documentary about the history of the lowest of the low? It was a strange experience watching that. I, you know, because I don't like watching myself or anything like that.

So I was just sort of, you know, sitting there going, oh, gosh, you know, ooh, stop. I like watching that. I, you know, cause I, I don't like watching myself or anything like that. So I was just sort of, you know, sitting there going, Oh gosh, you know, Ooh, stop watching us. Don't let that guy talk anymore. You know? And, um, and then of course I'm thinking, wait, I think I said something funny once. I haven't seen it yet. Is he going to use the funny thing I said? So I was very distracted the whole time, you know, very self-conscious and distracted. So it was hard to really take in um yeah i mean it's it's it was it was kind of interesting and fun to be reminded of all those old things it's not really it's funny it's it's it's interesting watching someone else's version of the story that i was a part of yeah you lived it and had a perspective on my perspective is very different because it's it's much more

focused on what the band is doing now rather than some fights that happened 30 years ago. But look, that's what happens when someone brings their personal lens to your story. It's totally valid. It's every bit as valid as mine. Lawrence, before we get Ron's perspective on this, did you have any

notes for Simon? Oh, I went with all the things that Ron said that were wrong about dates. I went and told him. I said, oh, Ron was wrong about that. Because you're the archivist. Yeah, yeah. So there was a large list.

Yeah, it was clearly not that year. Ron's wrong, you know. So Ron, do you remember the first time you, I don't know if you saw like cuts along the way, maybe, but do you remember the first time you saw the, you know, mostly completed version of this documentary? Yeah, I think I was i think i think i was

getting uh i think simon was sending me some little snippets early on and then i i again kind of wanted to reiterate to him i said you know i hope you're not sending me these pieces as a way to ask my approval there was one sort of um difficult scene or difficult section of the movie and he and he sent me that and And I, I said, you know, I hope that you're not sending me this to get my approval for it because I don't want it to be a fluff piece. I want it to be your movie. Right. And if I said it, then I said it, you know, if I said it, then, then I feel it's true. So, uh, however I look saying it is, that's,

you know, that's it, you know? So, so I think early think early on i just said don't send me things if you're looking for my approval like if you want to send me things so i can see them that's cool or you know and then when i saw the movie at the end it's again this combination of this feeling of like huh it's you know to some degree there's no way it can't feel a little bit like a memorial like you're at your own memorial because there's a beginning and an end and it feels like an encapsulation of your career or your life or whatever so there's that weirdness that you have to deal with and then the other thing about the band is and maybe it's me but i think we're all like this is that like i torture my family at home my daughter often where i'm like you know

she says something i'll go i'm kind of a big deal you know like like i'll play this dude i have this character i play which is that i'm a big you know indie famous indie rock star i've got a you whip out a copy of now magazine or whatever like i was on the cover in 1993 wickedly thumbed and you know post-it notes everywhere in it but so i you know we play we play that character i play that character but i think there's a deep humility in the band and i you know i think we all know i think we're all very proud of our legacy and i think we also all keep it in check. You know, like we're trying to do something real with our music and that's as far as it goes.

Like none of us really want to be rock stars or think of ourselves as rock stars. So that's another thing. It's weird to watch yourself be iconocized. Iconized? Iconized. I liked iconized actually. I don't know. Iconized. Iconized? I liked Iconicized actually. I don't know.

Iconicized? It feels like that might be correct, but. Iconified. Yeah. It's weird to be iconified. So when you see it happening, it's sort of like, huh. You know, and then I also have a personal, I don't know how Lawrence feels about this, but I have a real personal beef with the idea of how fame goes or how

iconifying things happens is that it's toxic i think overall i think it's a toxic aspect of our society and that people like us in a band like lowest of the low you're forced to sort of ride it like a skateboard like you kind of there's no way not to be part of it you have to create a myth around yourself sort of and there one one gets built so you have to do it but you also hopefully can ride it and not make it part of who you actually are. Because I think that's what was happening in the early days when we got really big.

Part of the reason I think the band broke up is because we started to see ourselves become people we didn't respect, you know, and we wanted off that train. To bring it back to public enemy. Don't believe the hype. You need to start to believe your own hype. You're in big trouble.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Now, one thing i realized though is i reminded that uh simon had you did i thought he did a great job i've seen it twice i thoroughly enjoyed it uh but simon works with the band so is it is he going to be a little uh kinder to you than he might have been if he didn't work with the band that's a loaded question i know. But I thought it was a fair and balanced piece. I don't think anybody in the band is kinder to each other. No, no, that's weird.

But Simon, I don't know. Would Simon have, like, I know, you know, we know Simon. Would Simon have made the movie about us if he didn't like us already? If he thought we were jerks that he had to work for and was secretly rolling his eyes the whole time, would he have gone to all that effort? So I think maybe he...

I think anybody who makes a doc about... like anybody who makes a doc yeah i mean simon this is the first um feature-length film he's made so he might not have known this going in but anybody who has made docs realizes this is a massive commitment and it's going to suck up my life and it's going to be a grind and it's going to be awesome so you wouldn't do that if you didn't love the subject matter. But at the same time, you know, I have asked, and Simon and I have actually talked about this, is like, you know, are you too close to the band

to make an objective doc? That's what I was thinking. And more importantly, does Simon know that we're actually kind of a big deal? Yeah, well, I told him. Because you don't want your doc to look like it's a propaganda piece celebrating this mythically great band. Well, that's what I said to him about that difficult part was like, I don't want it to be a fluff piece.

I don't want it to be something where it's like, look at how awesome Ron is in this moment. Look at how awesome Lawrence is in this moment. And look at the amazing decisions they made. Which is, I think, nice that there's times in there where you're like, wow, look at the really stupid decision they made. And then, you know, there's a couple of in there where you're like, wow, look at the really stupid decision they made. And then there's a couple of very vulnerable parts where I had to talk about stuff that went down with me and Steve or the band in the later era. And I don't think it shines well on me, but it's true.

And at the end of it, he's like, maybe they're not such a big deal after all. It's a lesson. I will say there was a moment in the doc near the end where it's like, there's an open question, like, will Stephen Stanley and Ron Hawkins

ever play together again? And I was going to scream out in the doc, they did in my basement. Like, is that the question in the movie or would Steve ever come back to the band?

Because I think there's no question. I mean, you know, Simon took a lot of footage of Ron and Steve playing music together this last year. Yeah, I think this was like gateway to that.

Like, I feel like they opened it. They asked the question. He asked the question, like, it looks like you guys, you know, will they ever play together? And then he kind of shows, oh, look, they went on tour. There's Chris Brown, Ron Hawkins and Stephen Stanley going on tour. And we see footage of that. So, yeah, it's like that's his way, I think, of introducing the fact that you guys do eventually get it. I don't know you might know this

but i told chris and steve at some point in that tour i said bhs if i said if i leave it's just bs very good hey i'm playing a little bleed a little wild tonight uh in the background because this other doc which uh i think you can you can buy it and stream it and this is what i saw in that gentleman's backyard whose name I can't remember and I'm embarrassed, but Simon Head was there for sure. Tell me a little briefly here, what was the story with the Shakespeare My Butt Masters?

These were discovered, they were lost, and they were found? I guess. They were in Steve's basement the whole time. Stephen Stanley had these Shakespeare My Butt Masters in his basement this whole time. And he lives in a mansion. Obviously. Steve's kind of a big deal.

I don't know if you know this. So they were probably in the west wing of the basement. But anyway, he found them. He, quote, I'm air quoting now. He found them. And then that was an incredible opportunity, right? We were like, wow, you know. Like, we're not a band who looks backward that often. But it was like, here's the two inch masters that have never been heard since we recorded

them. And then there was the talk of like, you know, cause maybe some of your listeners wouldn't know that, that there's a process called baking. Um, if you have old tapes because they're, uh,

glued, they're magnetic tape and the adhesive sometimes comes unstuck. If they sit around forever in Steve's basement, then you have to do something called baking, which is you literally put them in an oven and it re adheres everything. And, and the thing is though, then you,

then you can play them once or twice and they will just tread to nothing. Yes. So we recorded the, they kind of melt, don't they? It's really kind of gross. Yeah. It sort of melts.

It's just like all the sounds. When that Saskadelphia came out, that was the, the old, the tragically hip. They, they talked about that baking process and it sounds like you get what one when that Saskadelphia came out that was the old the tragically hip they talked about that baking process and it sounds like

you get what one shot at it or something yeah it restores the tape and you fuck it up and it's like that's it but then you get it

you copy it digitally right away which is what we did I mean that was the time we played it so it was recorded onto the digital source so that we now have

master pristine masters for forever and you have to understand again how non um nostalgic the band is about the past which is when we were done doing that we had these tapes and they're you know they're quite large they're they're bigger than a than a palm a pasta almost

almost as big as a palma and they're tasty and so we were done and we were like okay well who's taking these now like and we're like and you have anybody we can call to give them to so we we called our friend mike mccann who's uh kind of an archivist a little bit about some of our stuff and we're like hey man you want these two inch tapes he's like yeah what are you guys crazy you know like what the fuck you know we're like yeah we don't want to take them nobody wants to store them and steve won't take them back well i pulled this song specifically because in that track by track shakespeare my but um retrospective i don't know what it's called but when you guys are all chatting about it listening to the masters you and uh you ron and uh steven's voice how they dance together on this

song i mean i've always loved it i asked you to play it once at a tmlx event um but really banged home when you hear the Masters. Like, just listen to this. Any idea where somebody could see Subversives? Like, do we have a, do we know when it will be? Do you have any insight

or do I need to make a call to Simon and find out what's going on there? I feel as though you can buy a copy of it at Simon's website. It's on the Gumroad website. Oh boy,

I don't know. I should have looked that up. I bet you if you Google it, you can find it very quickly. I think right now, just as an aside, I think right now on Simon's website, he's running a bit of a fundraiser for our friend John Brooks, who's fallen on some hard times. As Don Cherry would say, having a bit of a fundraiser for our friend John Brooks, who's fallen on some hard times. Don Cherry would say having a bit of a tough time and has had some medical

issues and stuff. So I think you can get some sort of deal. Oh boy. You can get something. Lawrence will fix it in post. Don't worry. It'll be like it never happened. And the Shakespeare Song by Song, as far as I understand, is probably on YouTube.

I think that's also for no that one yeah you can buy that to scream it yeah i think the youtube link is like a top secret thing that you can't share with oh the young great on why you've been ron knows people he's kind of a big deal i know people too and i might have got that link myself but uh not that was a lovely experience because you know not not only the magic of like, oh wow, we haven't heard this since we laid it down on a board where we could go, Hey, solo the snare drum, solo the vocals. But I think Lawrence and Steve and I were all sort of baffled that it was, it's 24 track tape.

I mean, now, you know, now you would have infinite tracks to record on and people often have 70, 120, 180 track counts. And this was a 24 track tape yeah and we didn't even uh fill all 24 tracks on a lot of those songs on you know and and also i sort of thought we would go in and find that steven and i had either layered some vocals or and most often and it was just the two it was me and him yeah or sometimes me and him and me you know if we did the damn damn the circumstances or

something so it was amazing to see just how efficient and economical that record is and for it to have that kind of impact i mean just you know there's a master class in there somewhere about keeping it real and keeping it to the point you know okay earlier you you made a comment ron about the band's not very nostalgic like it's's, you know, because your new album is called Welcome to the Plunderdome and sounds amazing. I've got some choice songs we're going to hear from in a minute. And maybe if we have time, like I know you brought a guitar, like maybe we can even hear something from Welcome to the Plunderdome. I don't know. But what happens when you see when fans are like, I like the new album, but can we talk about Shakespeare, my butt for a minute?

Like it's almost like when I had Gino Vanelli on and he told me I had to get off black cars already. Cause he, you know, like, like, like, do you ever want to say to somebody, can we get off Shakespeare, my butt already? Cause you've got new art. I mean, I guess it depends how they, I don't know how you feel Lawrence, but I've come around to the idea that, you know,

it's weird, it's weird to feel irritated by somebody telling you that a record was the soundtrack to their life. Yeah. That's, that's not something you want to be complaining about. That's, that's a good thing. And honestly, I don't know. I might feel differently if I didn't like that album so much. Like I still love playing all those songs. They haven't, it's great fun. It never has never, ever worn off and I think that's a testament to the quality of the record that you made there.

It's a great record. Wow. I'm happy it's there. Someone would have to be really, really annoying to actually... I don't care about Welcome to the Plunder Dome. We had a guy I met after a show

who was so excited that he'd seen us. He thought we were great. And I said, oh, we're just making a new album. He said, oh, don't even bother. And so we're like, don't even bother. Oh, don't even bother.

Oh, well, I mean, you know, I mean, yeah. But we're also so like, we're so pumped by the last. Don't even bother. So pumped by the last three records that we made that I don't think, you know,

I think if we were in a different space and didn't know, weren't as confident in the new stuff that we've been making, we might feel differently like, Oh God, we're always going to be overshadowed by that record. But you know, if I, we are always going to be overshadowed by that record. Yeah. I got a news flash for you guys. But I'm saying I would debate people. I would sit down and debate why I think both Agitpop

and Plunderdome are at least as good as that record, possibly better than that record. Right. And because I feel that, so I'm already immune to too much of that you know and of course like love the fact that that other record means a lot to everybody because yeah and also this is what i've i've been astute enough to detect is that sometimes you can't like hear an agit pop as a like 17 year old without a mortgage and kids like you can't you know what i mean it's sort of like we're like we're like 30 years away from from plunder dome or agitpop being the soundtrack of someone's life when they grow up so i mean you know that'll happen it's just it's

it happens over time yeah you gotta get them we'll be dead so yeah we're shout out to really okay i got notes for you guys i'm gonna burn some of these notes although not not burn them because people took the time to write these lovely pieces but hamilton mike writes in tell and lawrence with all due respect this is for ron although you are also i think you're also an icon but he tell ron i view him in the exact same light as neil young still making new relevant music and commentary never resting on past glory and still pissed off at the world only because you know it could be so much better

for everyone loving the album Welcome to the Plunder Dome. Amazing. I'll take that in the spirit that it was awesome. Well, you know that Neil Young's kind of a big deal, right? I've heard that. Neil and Lawrence, do they both play a mean harmonica?

No. Lawrence plays a mean harmonica. Neil has to make a living at the club. Lawrence. Sir. When do you, okay, because I always think of you as like forever a member of Lois the Low, and I hear you on Shakespeare My Butt, but what was your role for Shakespeare My Butt and this is in the doc so people should see

subversives but when do you become like a card carrying member of Lowest of the Low? That was around Sorted Fiction so it was around 2003 after I was just a buddy for the first two albums. More than a buddy because you played on it.

I was the harmonica playing buddy for two albums. And then I spent, what, five years in the Rusty Nails with you? And we put out some albums. And then when Lost the Logo got back together, I got Shanghai'd into that. Was there a ceremony or something? I think we were planning on one. We hazed them, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, they all... Initiation? Yeah, wasn't allowed to look anyone in the eye for six months you know had to yeah um no it just it just it just happened over the recording of sordid fiction and uh no there was no ceremony that i can remember there might have been some sort of contract proffered but just for the record so people aren't confused when they hear that heart the harmonica pieces on Shakespeare, my butt, that is the Lawrence Nichols.

Yes, that's me. Well, you know, in hearkening back to the 17 years old and no kids are no responsibilities. I always make the joke that Lawrence was our buddy who jumped up and played harmonica, but he jumped up 250 times a year.

Yeah. Cause he was always, we're always around each other's shows and just hanging out all the time. So yeah, we both could jump a lot more back then. Jumping was easier. I bet you still got a pretty good vertical. Well, not in here.

No, don't do it here. You will be concussed. Okay. Tom Hicks writes in, I'm seeing them for the first time ever on the 24th in Buffalo. I'll piggyback on what Tom says. You can address Tom,

but I just want to let us know here we are talking in Toronto, Ontario, Canada but they're literally they're not really literally doing this but they are thinking of changing the spelling of the name of Buffalo's to add a W to the end to Buffalo. You guys are very popular in Buffalo we've talked about this in the past

but you guys can go play Buffalo anytime you want. You've got a bunch of Tom Hicks over there who are excited to see you Well a bunch of not Tom Hicks because he has never seen us. Right. The exact opposite. Yeah. Well, that's great. No, I look forward to Tom seeing us for the first time. I hope he enjoys it. Well, in fact, you know, Buffalo is the place where we go, where we are rock stars. Like we're not rock stars in toronto no you know we're popular and we can do our thing but like if we go to buffalo and we're eating somewhere and somebody who's a fan sees us eating like normal people yeah eating just like they do they might freak out you know like you should bring your

daughter along so that she can she can mock you while this happens to bring her to buffalo it has happened every now and when she was younger it would happen in the grocery store something like that and she would just be like a mortified but be sort of also a little amazed and like that's my dad or and at some time i heard all her teachers got got suddenly the the vibe changed from her teachers when she was in elementary school because i had been on the cover of the globe and mail or something like that or on the entertainment section and suddenly all the teachers were like wow you know like i walked in and it was different right and so really didn't know how to handle that way oh man and ruby was taught by a bunch of globe and mail readers yeah oh and she

said and ruby said that like when she was six or seven like we're famous like the family she's and i said what do you mean she said well you're famous so we're famous like we're famous, like the family. And I said, what do you mean? She said, well, you're famous, so we're famous. Like, we're famous. Yeah. We're a famous family. The Hawkins. Like the Kennedys. The big dealses. Hey, Mike,

first off, congratulations on your recent nomination for Canadian Podcasts Award. See, I could have clipped that, right? But I kept it in because that's the kind of guy I am.

Bravo. A well-deserved nomination. Can you please ask Ron and Lawrence, other than their mutual respect of each other's musical talents, what quality do they most admire in each other and why? Please tell the boys

that I loved their recent show at the Bronson Center in Ottawa. Cheers, Angelo in Barhaven. We have Barhaven? That's got to be near Ottawa. That's a place there. How have we never played Barhaven? I actually know Barhaven. I feel like that That's got to be near Ottawa. That's a place there. How have we never played Barhaven? I actually know Barhaven.

I feel like that's like a suburb of Ottawa. Like it's right beside Ottawa. Wow. It's like if you live in Ottawa, like that's the haven you go to because it's got some bars in it. Two R's in Barhaven. But yeah, so this is your mutual admiration moment here.

You want to go first? It's kind of beautiful. I wish it was down in Ottawa. I'm going to go first? It's kind of beautiful. I wish it was Val. I'm going to go first. Okay. So that way we don't double up. I would say sense of humor, intelligence, and bullshit detector. Those would be the holy trinity of Lawrence Nichols in my mind.

Okay. I'm a big fan of Ron's ADHD. Actually, all the same things. We hit it off when we met, I think, because we both thought each other was funny. I don't know if we are, but we thought we were funny. And yeah, Ron's got a decent bullshit detector too. And very, very decent moral compass and a way of expressing things

and putting things in a very, clarifying complicated issues in a way that's very humane and very insightful and wise. That wasn't always true, but that's definitely true now. Thank you, Lawrence. Yeah.

Do you ever get pressure from anyone who loves you, Ron, to maybe get a diagnosis and treatment for your ADHD? I ask for a friend because I have had loved ones suggest that maybe I do such a thing. I've never been diagnosed as ADHD,

but I've never sought diagnosis. I wouldn't want to treat whatever this is. I feel like it's my superpower. Whatever this is, I like it and it doesn't hurt anybody and makes me able to do what I do. That's a heavy one. This is about Ron. We also should probably not be making too much light of ADHD.

It is a real thing, and I don't think Ron has it, of course. I mean, this is an actual psychiatrist who asked me this question. She said, do you think you have it? But I think what you said there, I do consider it to be a superpower. And without that superpower, we're probably not sitting here four times or five times. And there's different, like you mentioned, Lawrence, there's different degrees. Some people can't function and need treatment. And then maybe you have a...

Well, this is how it went. Like an actual psychiatrist, a literal, literally a psychiatrist, turned to me while we were talking about someone else and said, do you think you have a little bit of ADHD? And I said, well, my family seems to think so. And now I'll add Lawrence to the, my extended family also thinks I do. And she said, well, do you find that it,

she said, do you find that you can't focus? And I said, oh no. I said, I also used to be a goalie. So I said, I got nothing but focus. And she said, then she said, do you find you're too focused? I'm like, wait a second. So everyone has ADHD? And I said, well, I don't know.

I said, that would be, and she said, does it get in the way of your life? And I said, I don't think so. I don't feel like it does. And she said, well, then it's not a problem. So that's you too, Mike. Yep, that's us. We're in the club there.

YYZ Gord says, hey Mike, for lowest of the low questions, I very much enjoy the documentary, but I was, actually I saw YYZ at the Rivoli for that screening of Subversives. He was there, and you were both there as well, so thank you, Simon. I very much enjoyed the documentary, but curious

what their reactions were to watching their own story. Was it cathartic or did it open old wounds? We kind of touched on this, but not in this elegant way that YYyz presents it well i i would like to underline this question with something that happened to simon when he i think it was at that show that you might have been at the screening that you're at uh as apparently

a person came up to him after the show and she she was livid well maybe not livid she was she was not thrilled and she said i I didn't like it. And Simon said, oh, I'm sorry. And he said, well, what didn't you like about it? She said, I was expecting like a feel-good nostalgia trip. And she said, there was too much truth. And we're all like, oh my God, that's the blurb. You nailed it, yeah. That's the blurb that goes on the DVD, too much truth.

We call that real talk around here, yeah. But I think, you know, like I look, when I watch the Steve parts, when I watch Steve talk about the difficult aspects, you know, I, I, I love that man.

And, and it's like, we've been through a lot together and I, and I know, like I can, I know what he means and what he's saying when he's saying things. And, you know,

and so that's interesting to watch. And, and then watching Dave, you know, there've been some difficult aspects with Dave as well. And then also I knew this about Dave, but like watching Dave express the fact that he was, he was the referee for a lot of it,

right. Trying to keep all the balls in the air, so to speak. And yeah, so that, so that was a fascinating part of it. And you know, and I think I did get a moment,

I can't remember if it's in that or if it's in the Shakespeare song by song, but I think I got a chance to say to Steve, I've never really properly thanked you or expressed how amazing those parts and how much they add to the songs and all of the stuff that Steve brought to it, the iconic things that are in those songs

because Steve played them. And I think I defend myself or philosophize about it by saying that often when you're in it and you're in the van and you're out of the van and you're in the soundcheck and you're this and you're that, nobody ever really takes a break or a breath to really show gratitude to all the people around them. And we should.

That sounds cathartic to me. Right, Lawrence? That does sound cathartic, doesn't it? And I think that, yeah, again, Ron has taken a rather complex thing and explained it rather beautifully. I just think you see, Ron's illustrating what I said about him.

I think it was interesting what you said earlier about it having a sort of memorial-like feel because, and I think that's probably because there's a whole bunch of people at the end all saying nice things much as they would at a wake or something like that and and and i just don't i just don't view our story like that i i i don't where that movie ends is not where our story ends we're all still out here doing music and i can watch steve talk about 20 years ago or 30 years ago but i still know steve and you know and because ron and i are kind of a big deal we we've we got to hear his new album you know so did you probably

in advance and i i think i think i think everybody ended up where they're supposed to be i think we're supposed to be doing what we're supposed to do steve steve going out on his own and writing those fantastic songs and creating that band i think that's where he needed to be the whole time and i think he's just done such a wonderful job. And that's the new Steven Stanley album is amazing. And I can't wait for everybody to get to hear it, but yeah, I,

I, I just think it was all for the best and that's, that's the lens through which I view it. I mean, I might be hopelessly naive. No, I totally agree with you because I actually said to Steve, like,

why, why do you think you're writing all these amazing songs now? And instead of the crappy ones you wrote in the band no i didn't say that i said uh i said you know and i said you didn't write as many when you were in the band and he said oh i just knew you were going to come in with a boatload of songs and he said i i want you know i got a couple on here and there and but uh so we're you know it's been lovely to see steve um dig so deep and and the cool thing about the new record, too, is that he is really stretching.

There are some songs on there that are really challenging stretches. As a songwriter, I see them and I'm like, wow, Steve's not shying away from the hard work. And what else was I going to say about that? And then to get to step back in with him and Chris and do that, there was somebody watching us rehearse out on Wolf Island when we were rehearsing. And later she told me that the person that was sitting beside her

said, oh, look at those two guys. They know exactly where they are in space at all times, even if we weren't looking at each other. And it's just saying that's a thing that grows. You grow another limb or something. Kind of beautiful. Beautiful, okay. Did that answer the question at all cathartic i just put a check mark beside cathartic uh as opposed to you wanted you wanted cathartic or not cathartic not cathartic i like this guy's name okay this gentleman's name is mark wildman i don't know

if it's wildman or wildman or wildman but. But that's a great name, right? Mark Wildman. Okay. Wildman. Ask how they enjoy doing, I think this is for you actually, Ron, but I should ask how you enjoy doing living room shows. From what I understand, he really enjoys them, but I would be interested to hear his take on it. So Mark tipped me off that you do shows in people's living room. Maybe. Yeah.

Well, I think maybe about, I don't need, you know, Lawrence would know better than i but when i started doing them because i can never remember the time but it might have been 15 years ago or it might have been 15 minutes ago but i started doing the odd house show like and i know that the first couple times people asked me i was like uh okay you know i'm not sure what this will be like and then i also knew a lot of other singer-songwriters who like, you know, wow, what, what does that like, like also weirded out and everything. And then I started doing them. And what turned out to be the case was like, well, it's all people that are super fans, like people that would bother having you in their house. Oftentimes it's people who run a series and then they're so respected for their taste in music that people will come who

don't know you but they respect the person yeah because they trust the person's judgment and those people are cool usually get treated really well usually get fed usually get paid well and usually get you know they're they're bending over backwards what kind of alcohol what kind of mocktails what kind of this what kind of that and i'm like what color eminent i made some kind of mocktails what kind of this what kind of that and i'm like what color eminem i made it some kind of joke at uh actually jackson triggs once i'm like yeah it's going to be really hard to go back to the horseshoe with my my two shitty domestic beer tickets and then the promoter said uh jeff cohen's in the crowd ron who runs the horseshoe which is classic me to do that and of course jeff thought it was funny but uh but yeah so like the the house shows are generally great i mean i've been i've been burnt once by it turning into a dog and pony show where i was sort of like behind the

christmas buffet table and people were getting their sweet and sour chicken balls while i was you know yeah so there was that for the documentary there was once where i was like too much truth and and in that moment like this never happens but in that moment there was a where i was like too much truth yeah and and in that moment like this never happens but in that moment there was a bit of a reel going through my mind like i'm fucking ron hawkins what am i doing here don't they know who i am don't they know who i think i am and then ruby showed up at the party went straight from the table but i would think working for super fans is the way to go like these are people who adore your art like so that's sort of everything as opposed to somebody where you're just booked

and you're, I don't know. Well, I guess the other thing people might worry about is sort of a weird stalkerism of that. Like, oh my God, somebody paid, they wanted you in their house. But it's like, that's not been my experience.

I've met some very cool people. One of them I did, I know I was taking a break between sets and the guy said, Ron, the Marxists are in the kitchen and the anthropologists are in the blah, blah, blah. You know, it was sort of like, it was just, I'm like, oh, okay.

I decided I want to go talk to him. Just like any other party, the Marxists are in the kitchen. Yeah, you can't mix them. Michael Lang wrote in to say, the answer to the question of which CD did I buy a second copy of in case something happened to the first one,

Shakespeare, my butt. So Michael Lang bought it twice, just in case. It's good to have that. We still have more if he needs more. Yeah, Michael, get him more. Ian Service wants to know

what do you guys do with all the royalties from your songs being used at the end of podcasts? So that's... Ian's making, having fun of the fact that every episode

of this podcast closes with Rosie and Greg. We get paid in pasta. Yeah, I mean, that's... They don't tell you that when you're streaming. That's true. That 00.12 is 00.12 of a pasta. Well, I would say you probably get compensated better

from the pastas that you get every time you visit than from maybe Spotify or something. I don't know what kind of money... Oh, yeah, I don't know how many streams we'd have to get to be able to afford one of these pastas. This is a large... But you are leaving each of you. You're both... You don't have to kind of money. Oh yeah, I don't know how many streams we'd have to get to be able to afford one of these pastas. This is a large, but you are leaving each of you, you're both, you don't have to share it even, you get your own. You do have a lasagna

from Palma Pasta. Wow, that's so great. That's worth probably about, yeah, 100 million streams on Spotify to get one of these. I've only played it 1,361 times, I think. Also want to thank Great Lakes Brewery. I have craft beer for you to take. It goes well with the pasta

and I know that Ron's been playing with the measuring tape that's courtesy of Ridley Funeral Home. Because of the... You each get one. You don't have to

share that either. Measure what you wish. We can measure each other's measuring tape. Okay. That's what you all thought he was going to say, right?

Stepped in a pile of shaving cream. Did you guys ever listen to Dr. say, right? Stepped in a pile of shaving cream. Did you guys ever listen to Dr. Demento? Yes. Yeah, sure. All right. There's a wireless speaker. You each get one of those as well.

Oh, wow. Now listen, you can listen to music, of course, but you also need to use that to listen to season five of Yes, We Are Open, which is an inspiring podcast from Mineris, hosted by Al Grego. He went east this time, Maritimes. He went to Newfoundland, and

he talks to inspiring small business owners, and he shares their story with us in Yes, We Are Open, Season 5, now available. Enjoy your... They're really good, those smart speakers. And Ron has been doing a little... During Returnal Fatalist,

I think you've been doing, during the breakdown, you'll be doing a little Greatest Hits of the Police collection, but we haven't touched that one yet. Sing it. Oh, box hands. You don't have to. Yeah, amazing.

And while you're listening to podcasts, I highly recommend the Advantage Investor Podcast from Raymond James Canada. Whether you already work with a trusted financial advisor or currently manage your own investment plans, the Advantage Investor provides the engaging wealth management information

you value as you pursue your most important goals. Blow yourself away The time bureau lets you Walk out the door Ready to roar Check your guns at the door There's a man that you should see A generation that's fantastic Knows about life

Life in the state it are Ron, I saw you at the Art Bergman concert the other day. Yes, hanging out at the old railway. Yeah. It's a railway. What a great show. Yeah, it was a great show. And the very next day, he came over here.

Lawrence, did you hear Art Bergman on Toronto Mike? I did. Okay, what did you think? I thought it was a great episode. That's a great interview. He says it's his, but you think he just says that to everyone who interviews him, that he tells them that was the best interview he's done in his life? I suspect that that's not really Art's style. Do you think Art tells everybody who interviews him? No, Art's not a people pleaser.

No, I don't think Art, no. That's not an Art thing to do. I don't think so. No, I think you I listened to it too. I think he was genuinely... I told Ron yesterday you really should listen to that, right? Okay, so. I listened to it too. I think he was genuinely I told Ron yesterday, you really should listen to that. Okay, so what did you guys, yeah, okay. So you enjoyed it. Good. I enjoyed, like I thoroughly enjoyed the chat, but

you know, it got heated here and there. It was very interesting. It was all over the place. It got heated. We talked about Buffy and it got a little heated. And then I, he had previously made comments about Israel and their policies that he's not a fan of and we revisited that. and it got a little heated. And then he had previously made comments about Israel and their policies that he's not a fan of, and we revisited that.

And then Art said... Wait, something going on in Israel? Something's going on. So Art said something, and this has been bugging me ever since the Art Bergman episode. So I, for the record, I loved the Art Bergman episode, and I know he did too. Loved it.

But he said something that I felt like, you know, you mentioned Don Cherry a moment ago, Lawrence Nichols. You mentioned Don Cherry. And remember when Don made that comment on that Remembrance Day episode

of Hockey Day in Canada and he talked about you people, you come here for the milk and honey. You remember this? Was that the thing that sort of shut him down?

That's the thing. Yeah. And Ron let it go and people were very critical of Ron for not like calling him out on this. Ron McLean. Yes.

Not Ron Hawkins. I didn't let it go. Good point. That would have been very confusing for some people. Bottom line is, were very critical of Ron for not like calling it out on this. Ron McLean. Yes. Not Ron Hawkins. I didn't like that. Good point. That would have been very confusing for some people. Bottom line is Ron McLean explained that, you know, he's setting up a video

because they're going to show Ron in a Remembrance Day video and he's got a bunch of stuff going on like a conductor and he just simply missed it, he said. And I felt a bit that way. I feel like I missed something and I kind of want to revisit it really quickly

because I wish I had kind of caught it in the moment and I had kind of maybe called Art out on this. But let me bring down your song, Life Imitates Art, which is all about Art Bergman, which I got him to talk about that too. And it's, what's the, Boot Sauce. This is the band that seems to get blamed for,

yeah, fuck Boototsauce. You're not going to call out art on anything you said about Bootsauce, are you? I'm all on, you know, I don't know. They could be lovely guys, but they didn't. They're not. I don't know. I just, again. We have a Bootsauce problem, too.

Okay, I'm here to collect the Canadian rock feuds. Okay, so I'm going to play only 13 seconds. This is from the Art Brigham episode. Now I'm naturally curious, since you were kind of, now the entire world is a mess, and now especially that part of the world, and I'm wondering what your thoughts are

on this current war. Current war. Well, my dear Jewish friend Donna sent me a text that said, Hamas invaded Israel. And I went, how can they invade Israel? Because they're in the largest prison in the world. But they are in the largest prison in the world,

and there's old people there with keys to their homes in Tel Aviv. And I don't know how to sort out that whole mess except maybe have a religion-free zone. Sounds like heaven. Ironically enough, your next poem. Yeah, I would imagine no religion. Yeah. I'm on board with that. Yeah, I am too. religion. Yeah. I'm on board with that.

Yeah, I am too. All right, so what's bugged me, I just want to revisit it quickly, and then we're going to move on to the music, like the gentleman Jason said when he was there with Art. But it feels, as I replayed that, and someone pointed it out,

and I appreciate them pointing it out, it sounds like Art is justifying the October 7th attack on Israel, because he doesn't say it explicitly, and I appreciate them pointing it out, it sounds like Art is justifying the October 7th attack on Israel because he doesn't say it explicitly, but he kind of says, how can Hamas attack Israel when this is the world's biggest prison? It sounds like a justification for what happened on October 7th. So I just wish I hadn't given him that free pass there and that we quickly pivoted to that utopian idea of a religion-free planet.

But I just regretted and called him out, so I just thought I'd revisit that today and say, I wish I had called out art. I don't want to speak for art, but I would imagine what art, knowing art, I would imagine what art means is that, because he used the word invaded, right? Like how could Hamas invade Israel? I think he's just pointing out that the power imbalance is massive,

massively weighted in the Israelis' favor, and that as horrific and obviously as horrific and evil and a crime against humanity as the Hamas attacks were, you know, like he says, there's a very, very long history there. And there's probably an original sin there of the British plopping the zionists down there you know in a place that there were people so i think i think maybe that's probably what he means it's just it's so incredibly involved and interwoven but that you know so many innocent

people are dying so my regret is that in real time, I didn't at least ask for some clarification there. Because regardless of what you think about Israeli policies and what's happening in Gaza, I don't think we should be justifying the attack on Israel of October 7th. No, no, I don't really know anybody who is. I don't know anybody that is either. It is such a complicated complicated situation uh there's nothing on earth that can justify what was done to the people in israel on october 7th it's it's as ron said it's an absolute crime against humanity really is it's

awful um it's also something that was not perpetrated by every palestinian and i i know there's some people that don't like you when you make that distinction. Yeah, but it's an important one to make. It is. And as I say, I think, unfortunately, everyone I've heard from any side of this doesn't really have an answer. And I think what bothers people is that we can't allow ourselves to imagine that there might not be a solution. And I right now don't see how there's a solution. Because I think, as I say, I think there was an original sin of creating the situation in the first place.

And whenever they say David Ben-Gurion says, you know, a people-less land, or what's the phrase? A people-less land for a land without people, for a people without a land? A landless... A peopleless land for... A land without a people. And unfortunately, there were people there. So it's like, you know, it's partially a British imperialism problem.

It's partially a, you know... And then that set up a situation that's, of course, just unraveled in so many ways. I was talking to my daughter Ruby the other day about this, which is the other weird thing I find is we now live in a period of time where every rock musician and every influencer and every person who owns a bowling alley is supposed to weigh in on a thing that how could they possibly have the chops?

How could any of us possibly have the historical or the political chops to understand or come up with some kind of a solution to the historical or the political chops to understand or come up with some kind of a solution to this? Yet everyone is expected to. Like the way we came up with it, I was talking to her one day about an influencer on TikTok and this woman has a nail show basically on TikTok, right? She's really good at nails, right?

And then some other situation in the Middle East happened and apparently all these people online were saying, I can't help but notice the radio silence on the issue and blah, blah, blah. And she apparently rightfully said, like, I have a nail platform, you know? But then she was getting so much problems for it that she went on YouTube and she did some research and she tried to find out as much as she could about the situation and

to her credit and then she actually made a statement and of course and then everybody jumped on you just have a nail show what the hell are you talking about you know so it's like there's no way to win currently because we're all expected to have an opinion and we're all looking to people like Kim Kardashian or whoever, like Chanchi Arcola, for lack of a more. The thing with Art is that it's his third appearance on Toronto Mike, then he opened his first appearance, and this is years ago, so way before the most current invasion and the current war, but he started the episode by going off on Israeli israeli policies in gaza and i got a note after that and i thought i was telling him i got a note after that somebody telling me art

bergman was anti-semitic on your program and i took that claim very very seriously and then i reviewed the tapes like i literally like i don't want to host anti-semitism on toronto mic i've less than zero interest in that and i replayed it it and I'm like, clearly you can criticize Israelis policy without it being anti-Semitic, which I think- Well, of course you can because Israelis or Jews all over the world do it, like criticize, you know.

And then that's why I revisited it with art because he had, you know, that's how he opened episode one on Toronto Mike. And I think, did he not in a true art form start talking about one N and two N's on the end of his name or something? Oh yeah, that's how we ended the episode. Apparently Alan Cross forgets to

put two N's on, Alan Cross who's in your document and Art, I will point out, Art's in the Subversives documentary. We see him, he's moved, that was his Alberta It was his Alberta house, yes. Farmland or whatnot and it's really, you know, you see him against a barn or something and it's really you know you see him against a barn or something

and he's moved back to Vancouver but yeah art's all over the the Lowest of the Low documentary so cool cool

okay so it gets a little heavy are you guys ready to rock sure I'll let it be the battle Hey, kid, you got so A diamond in the rough with an ace in the hole I mean, streak, you're back to the bone But you're only gonna lose if you go it alone

It's lonely Don't try to call me Yeah, it's lonely Yeah, but it's only It's only You can face the facts, wake that rage Don't turn the other cheek, you gotta turn that page The word, the deed, the bat and the rope This town is gonna burn with every kind of hope This is a Ska Jam, gentlemen. This is a ska jam, gentlemen.

This is ska. Ska jam. Hey, kid, you got soul. This is from the new album, Welcome to the Plunder Dome. This is a great frickin' song, and you guys should be very proud, but I don't know.

Can I say the F word on this program? It's a great fuckin' song, but quick question from Cambrio. Cambrio writes in, can you ask them how they got in touch with that YouTube dance instructor for their latest music video and ask them what's their favorite ska bands?

I think we got in touch with her through YouTube or Instagram. Yeah, I think Dave followed her. Dave just, you know, came across her on Instagram and then started following her. And then in the Instagram way, you know,

yeah. As you do in the, yeah. Yeah. So, and then he, when the idea of the, of the song,

having a video came up in classic Dave, uh, scenario, he said, I got this idea and it's, I'm going to get her to shoot herself dancing to this song and send it to us and then i'm gonna shoot i'm gonna shoot it on my phone in different locations and i think we all did what we do with dave which is that we have such deep implicit trust in him that we all just

kind of look blankly at him and nodded and went okay like none of us going like i can't imagine what that's going to look like or that it will be cool and then then of course it comes back and it's amazing because it's Dave. And he did all those things. And he did all the things he said he would do. I mean, I've heard ska influence in Lois and Lo jams in the past, quite, quite a bit actually.

But where does this, uh, you want to credit any particular ska bands that you're into that maybe inspired this particular song? Uh, I think it happened i mean it came back to us uh before the pandemic right but i think then the pandemic happened and we were shut down as a band and i was painting a lot so when i was painting a lot i guess it was kind of

comfort food that i was listening to just a lot of non-stop spotify blue bead and ska collections and stuff like that and it was uh i just feel i just find it comforting and um and i guess you know like the way my brain works is things go in there and it's a sponge and then i write in a style that i that's in there and a little bit of this a little bit of that so uh yeah i mean i was just listening to like tons of bands i'd never heard before a band called cat bite i'm not sure where they're from i think philadelphia or something but they're uh recent and they're very cool and you know and then all the classic like the specials and uh you know just uh all the punk bands that i know that were influenced by ska as well so you know and rancid people like that like uh so yeah it was just a whole bunch

of stuff went in there and it's funny because some people when they heard love and justice on agipop were like oh my god that's awesome you're adding ska to the to the list of ways that you guys express yourself and i would say well you know it's actually kind of weirdly it's a about face back to popular front and you know it predates the low but you know but it's all been in there before and like there was a time i think when popular front had a maybe a nine-piece band we had a full latin percussion outfit and some horns and you know and then it was time for rebranding there with popular front all this by the way in that subversive documentary does a good job of uh outlining, the ongoing history of,

uh, lowest and the low. I think the cool thing though, too, is that the, the band, the current lineup of the band has gone through some kind of unspoken, magical Renaissance where we've just,

I guess, just from working and from being good guys and from being maybe possibly more mature in our, in our artistry and in our humanness it's just we really trust each other and so this thing happens where somebody will bring something and no matter how maybe out of our box it normally is or whatever everything gets a chance and it goes through the low grinder and it comes out the other end not sounding like the original inspiration but sounding better usually.

And, you know, I think a good example of that is Today, Tonight and Tomorrow. The flip side of this single, the Hey Kid single, is really not something that we've done much of. And it sounds, I don't know what, like kind of a post-punk sort of vibe, early 80s kind of, you know, dancey, post-punk-y thing. It's almost disco beat going on, right? Yeah.

But like nobody really questioned, you know, it just kind of started happening almost disco beat going on, right? Yeah. But nobody really questioned. It just kind of started happening and then everybody was like, that sounds cool. There wasn't a lot of judgment. There aren't any, I feel like there aren't any walls being put up.

No. I mean, it has to sound like us because it is us, right? Yes. Yes, that's true. Sorry, remember I said Ron has all the important thoughts that's profound

actually i have other thoughts if you noodle that for a little bit it can break your brain a little bit his thought was quicker than my thought if that's any so are you already uh working on the next album like like do you guys i gotta say it it's almost there right like we've got it we've got it this is prolific activity from you guys We've been at it for a little bit now. We've got enough material. Do you ever think to slow your roll? Like maybe let's slow our roll here. No, I think we got to do a little catch up because the lockdown slowed us down.

I mean, we were a long time between studio albums. Yeah, there was a bottleneck. Because don't forget, I mean, there was also a DGA record that came out during COVID, which was a- Do Good Assassins. Do Good Assassins, which was a failed experiment know, was a failed experiment because I thought, well, maybe we'll put it out with no physicals and just see what happens. And I found out

what happened. Because people don't really hear about it. Not so good, Al? But no, but I think the other cool thing, which is really unusual for us and has only happened one other time, is that we suddenly had uh this record plunder dome in the can and finished and everything and no shows lined up so we we have our typical monday rehearsals and it was like i guess we'll just go in and you know have fun fuck around and be teenagers and so we did that and then oh my god was that fruitful it was like every time we left the rehearsal space

was like that seems like maybe three new songs you know like just these little acorns and i and i don't know like i like you would know better than me but i but i said you know like i feel like i don't feel like i was ever like frank blackie kind of controlling songwriter guy in the band but it's like suddenly i just have such trust and and everybody just feels so um entitled where we are now that everybody just puts in ideas ideas and whoever's idea is best you know we try everything and i i kind of feel like we've all sort of the the process of making welcome to the plunder dome this is the first album that we produced ourselves uh and it's also the first album that we you know we went to john critchley's studio to do the bed tracks and then we recorded all our parts at our separate homes studios and then sort of

sent them all digitally to a central location it was an experiment to see how that could work and then we we gathered at michael's studio to do the vocals uh and i think it was a very successful experiment experiment and to what you were saying i think we all sort of started relaxing as as we got closer and closer to the finished product and Michael was bringing in the mixes and we were hearing them and we were going oh this is going to work and I think that enabled everybody to just relax a little bit and I know I did

I had all my great ideas about this has to be like this and this I just was hearing what was there and going oh maybe it doesn't have to be like that maybe this is great so yeah it doesn't mean that we agreed on everything all the time because we didn't. But we got to a place I think everybody

said they were happy with. Time will tell. The next documentary will tell. Yeah. It's not for the faint of heart, for the lovers of the starving artists. It's for the worms and the snakes and the rats and vomit. And boys that can't keep their rage in their undergarments. And I just have to ask, if you're an anti-antifascist. And oh, are you to the mouth? I found it difficult to like, I knew I was going to pull

Hey Kid, You Got Soul, but I didn't know, what other songs am I pulling just to play while we chat about it? And it was a tough call because they're all pretty damn good. Like, it's a strong album. Congrats to you guys.

Thank you. Thank you. What kind of a big deal? I know, I saw you on the cover of the Globe and Mail. Field and stream. Is there an order of Canada in your future, Ron? What do you think?

I think there's an order of fries in my future. I don't know if there's an order of Canada. I think Art made the same joke, I think. You know, it's funny. He's got an order of Canada. He can make those jokes. When I heard that he was getting it, I sent him a DM and I just said,

hey, I know you will wear this uncomfortable crown gracefully, but I said, is it weird? And he said, yeah, it's totally weird. And in total art, in art's inimitable way, he at the time had been, for the last couple of records, working with a lot of indigenous people. And he went to the elders of the people that he was working with and said, can I accept this award?

You know, it's basically a colonial settler award, you know, best colonial settler musician. And they said, of course you should. It's a great honor and they're honoring your work and, you know, and what you mean and what you've, you know, you've put your life to. And so that could have been the end of the story. But what I love about Art is that he then took that, got the Order of Canada, and then every chance he had,

he used his platform to talk about Indigenous rights. And so it was like the whole thing just came together and made sense. It was kind of seamlessly, right? Because otherwise I think like, you know, I think we were all weirded out. Like Art getting the order of canada right right you know nobody could have the would give them the time of day they kicked him off the bus of the big bad and groovy tour now he's got an order of canada fuck boot sauce yeah they all they all should we revisit it really fast okay so

the quick story is in this i did play life im art already, but so you heard that and you can, you can find that, but the, uh, he gets, he's on a tour with, uh, other bands and they kick them off the bus and he's like hitch. Is he hitchhiking at the side of the highway or something?

Like our, our side of the story is very short, which is that we were going West on tour. They were going East. And at some point I, I rubbernecked and said, Hey, that's our bourbon.

And everybody was like, Oh, fuck off. What are you talking about? Art bourbon. He's on the big, bad and groovy tour. I said, no, he's on the side of the highway. And we, but rubbernecked and said, Hey, that's Art Bergman. And everybody was like, Oh, fuck off. What are you talking about? Art Bergman, he's on the big, bad and groovy tour. I said, no, he's on the side of the highway. And we were, but we were, you know, making a deadline and making gas money. So we couldn't even stop. Right. And then that sat with me and,

and I chewed on it for a while and I was like, how is Art Bergman standing on the side of the road? And, and it just made me think, you know, he is, he will have an order of Canada one day. I thought to myself, and I thought I'll write this song about how important he is, even though, you know,

the world he's, you know, kind of an unsung hero. I don't know. I don't know if this is a coincidence or not, but this is, this is a little tidbit about our next album that's coming out. But since you saw Art Bergman play at the Horseshoe Tavern,

you were inspired to go and write a song that you worked on in rehearsal last night, which is, I think, partly another art song, although it might be a little more oblique in its references. It's a little more, it doesn't have his name in the title, but- Oh, is it called Life Imitates Life Imitates Art? It's Bergman, but with one N, so no one will know.

It's Life Imitates Art Imitating Life. Yeah. No, I had this title called The Seven Sorrows, and it was like, I just, for whatever reason, liked seven sorrows and it was like i just for whatever reason liked that phrase and it was sitting with me for a bit and then i went to see art that night and all the time i was watching i don't know if you were feeling the same thing i feel like from the interview that you were feeling the same thing was to watch him and go you know wow i'm shocked that he's here because for sure all of our friends thought you know art will be dead in

a half a year right so i felt that's kind of why i brought this up because i think you actually mind this territory quite quite so just hearing his pain but i was walking in line i didn't want to be that asshole no no of course but i think i'm glad he's alive i think it was very real i'm not complaining about too much truth i think you got a really you know really perfect amount of truth there i was also as the as the set progressed and he got comfortable and kind of settled there i was also uh as the as the set progressed and he got comfortable and kind of settled in i was like damn his voice and his guitar playing was the band was great and the voice and the guitar playing was so strong and this you know before

the show uh he was i watched he was walking i think he was going to the washroom or something and i saw the cane come out he was walking he walks with a cane now. And he's got scoliosis. I think I nailed that. But, you know, it's a spine issue. And it's difficult for him to walk. So he does the whole concert sitting down. But as it kept going and going, it was like I was having this moment of like, I was so into it.

And then I told him, I think his penultimate song was Bound for Vegas or whatever, which is kind of this real good rocker or whatever and then this is the moment because i had a glance at this atlas which you're not supposed to do but this is the moment where he's gonna he's gonna go off stage and have a drink of water or something and wait for us to you know insist upon a on a uh come back for an encore and then he's gonna come back but because he's got the the cane it's a pain in the ass for him he's like like no i'm just gonna go right into the encore and then he does that beautiful song for his late wife uh the hymns hymn for him for us or whatever it's called bottom line beautiful i had just just fucking

loved like every minute of art bergman at horseshoe tavern and i was just like wow yeah the thing you can't take away from somebody that's motivated the way art is, and I hopefully we are carrying that same torch is that it will, it will never not be impressive to go see Art Bergman because he's not trying to sell you shoes and he's not trying to, he's not trying to be a diva and nail the high notes or like all of that. You know, he wants to be a professional, but,

but what he wants to do is move you somehow. And he can do that because he's singing into your soul he's not really performing for you you know he's i don't know how to phrase it but like just his business is different than than most of the music business as is ours and i think that's that gives you a life a shelf a longer shelf life because you know if what you're doing is trying to look sexy and and and move units you know that has a short shelf life i did ask him straight out like are you gonna do a little tour like you know he's he was such a great performance and he seemed so strong he said he was lifted by it and you could feel it like as it progressed you could feel it like art was you could feel he was

really into it and coming alive there and it was really nice to see actually and i'm like do more shows and he talked about basically he needs someone to see actually. And I'm like, do more shows. And he talked about basically he needs someone to, you know, pay for the shows. Like you can't just, you can't just go and do shows. And then,

then, and then I'm brought back to this reality of this world we live in where it's like, oh yeah, like it's expensive for art to just suddenly start touring. He needs somebody's money's got to come from somewhere to finance this. And then I think I threatened to ask you guys, we should be an art Bergman lowest to the low collaboration of some threatened to ask you guys, we should be an Art Bergman,

lowest to the low collaboration of some sort in concert. Well, it should be, but I mean, whether or not he said he was, he's been bugging me, which he has been. He said,

Ron, do you guys still have an audience? You want to do a show with me? But yeah, the realities of it all kind of comes crashing back there. Unfortunately. it all kind of comes crashing back there, unfortunately. Pop sensation It's a bad day On a bad day Folks have fewer rights Than corporations

On a bad day Workers have to fight For liberation For decent wages Toilet breaks And even paid vacations on a bad day Now I don't know if I believe They tell me that the underpest in me

Is bringing in the right degree They tell us you just wait and see Amazing. All right, gentlemen. So I know that Ron's got a guitar here, so I don't want to be presumptuous, but I didn't say, Ron, you've got to sing for your supper, but would you play something?

Let's start with that. Would you play something here live? Of course we would play something live. I think we would probably play that song. I would have suggested we play that one. Oh, yeah, yeah. Maybe I should have asked you. There's many more verses to it,

so we could still play it. You want me to fade it down right away so you can play on a bad day? Yeah, I didn't know what, I didn't, I just pulled random songs. But okay, now I want to ask you, can we do a little detour and then close with the live Lawrence and Ron? So the detour is, like, I get things stuck in my head, and then I get, like, some people are like,

oh, you can get off this already. It does happen to me quite a bit. It happened to me with, maybe. Tears Are Not Enough got stuck in my head. And it's like I just literally just, my episode tomorrow is, or maybe I'm going to drop it Thursday, is with Sylvia Tyson. And, you know, we have to talk Tears Are Not Enough. I had

to talk about it with Randy Backman, who didn't get invited to Tears Are Not Enough. He didn't. Because Bruce Allen was a bit pissed at him for, I guess he quit BTO or something and Bruce was managing BTO and BTO. So then they was managing BTO and so they So then they were just TO? I want to see this movie. I want to see this documentary movie.

Come on, I'm working on it all here. So here's the quick detour because I'm healthily and mildly obsessed with the 1993 New Music Search contest from CFNY and I recently had Hayden over here because Hayden entered with a song called Take but he was too shy to sing.

He didn't think he was a good singer. So he had Noah Mintz sing his part in Takes on there. But I'm going to play. All set to go here. I'm going to play. Wait, is that true? That's not Hayden singing? It's not Hayden singing on Take.

Oh. I know. See? Yeah. That's Noah Mintz singing on Take. Oh. So Hayden wrote that and he plays guitar on that. But that's Noah Mintz singing on take. So Hayden wrote that, and he plays guitar on that. But that's Noah Mintz singing on take.

I know. I thought it was Hayden Forever. Wow. I got to go. I got to go process this. His mind is blowing, and that's what we do here on Channel Mike. We blow minds. I like take for what it's worth.

I told Hayden, you should put that on an album. Just re-record take and stick it on an album. Or maybe get Noah to come and sing it again. They were high school buds at Thorn Lake Collegiate. That's how that all goes down. They were in a band together

in high school. All right, now, so this is the original, I guess, so this is not the album version. This is the... Bob Wiseman version. You know, have you heard

Bob Wiseman on Toronto Mike? Actually, no, I haven't. You got Bob Wiseman? He dropped by for an hour. Uh-huh. Yeah, we talked about him producing this. bob weisman's very interesting on toronto mic because that shit you know didn't seem like i don't know he was i i enjoyed the chat but he uh i don't know if he loved being here like i mean you know what i mean like you got to listen to bob weisman on toronto mic okay okay that's your

homework here gamble so bob we So Bob Wiseman produces this. This gets entered. So let me hear from you guys for a minute here. You end up, like, can you ask me, like, how did it work back then? Did somebody at CFNY suggest you enter? Did you enter? Give me the nuts and bolts, and then we'll talk about. I don't think Ron's going to remember any of this.

Do you remember anything about the 1993 New Music Search in CFNY? This track, this will tell you remember anything about the 1993 New Music Series? This track, this will tell you the state of the band, or the state of me and the band at the time, is the band kept telling me that we recorded some tracks with Bobby Wiseman, and I was like, no, no. I remember we talked about it, and we were planning on it, but we never did it. And they were like,

Ron, we were in the studio for two days with Bobby Wiseman, and we recorded three songs. So were you on drugs? Like, was this a subtext? Maybe not at the time. I mean, certainly not when I was recording, I'm sure, but probably on either side.

So, yeah, and that's kind of shocking to me. Like, wow, that's not good when you have an entire experience like that. No, that's not good. So I don't remember doing it, but there it is. There's the documentary evidence. I have the evidence. And then I don't know what happened. I don't know how it gets picked for those. I just knew that we were... Do you know how that used to happen? I mean, I think you did have to

enter. And who would have, like, maybe Frank Weypert would have entered us or something, or a manager? Was Frank there yet, or Sandy and Skinny? By 93, I would think it would be Frank Frank but I don't know but this is before you went to Vancouver this would have been

92 actually right because you didn't sorry this is the 93 so I had this I still have my original CD

this is the 1993 new music search yeah I think I have that one as well this also ties into Art Bergman because Art had become a good

friend of mine and he was hanging out with us and me and my then-girlfriend Kathleen in Toronto in Kensington Market. And he had a couple shows before the presentation at Roy Thompson Hall. And so Kathleen and I made a promise to each other, we're going to go to the art show tonight, but that's it. Then we're going to go home because I have this big thing to do on Sunday. So this was Friday.

And of course, everyone listening knows how it went. We went to the art show. We went to an after party. We did a lot of drugs. We went to the art show the next night, went to an after party. And by the time we got to Roy Thompson Hall, I'd been up for two days straight. And I was like, well, now I can't just go to Futures and drink a lot of coffee because I can't go to sleep now. I'll never wake up.

And we won't make it. because I can't go to sleep now. I'll never wake up, right? And we won't make it. And then the low had had this plan, which was that we, the CBC for some reason let us into their wardrobe department to get all these fuchsia and hot pink suits,

which we wore, jackets and stuff like this. And we had planned this entire sort of theater art piece, which is that if we didn't win, we were going to stand up and make a giant scene in Roy Thompson Hall and storm off and we were robbed

and they could actually make a... And so I don't know who, maybe one of our girlfriends or two of our girlfriends, somebody said, you guys come up with these ideas that you think are hilarious and maybe they're not.

Maybe they're just really stupid ideas and you guys will be entertained for a minute. They're easily misunderstood, right? So we didn't do it but uh the reason i'm bringing that up is because i think at the same presentation art won did he win no he was up for an award for his then record on polygram which i think was just called art bergman and he played american wife or he i think he recited the lyrics to American Wife and a very, and you know, baffled everybody out there.

And then the beautiful part of this story is that we, after being told for months by everybody, including people inside CFNY and stuff like that, that we were a shoe in and we were definitely going to win this thing. And we kept saying like, you know, hold off. We don't want to be carrying that around. We didn't win it and had won it. And those guys were so lovely that I can't remember who it was that stopped me in the hall might have been i was probably brendan said i don't where they were shocked that they won they thought for

sure we were going to win and they said if you guys have gone out on a limb and like bought a van or something because you're already spending the money i said we'll we'll loan you the money you know interest free like you know and you can pass back when you can and stuff like this. And I was like, wow, that's Toronto. Like, that's the Toronto community at the time, you know? To be fair, he also probably thought you spent a lot on those suits.

Yes. Yeah. He's like, I know you've been doing a lot of drugs, and that has cost you a lot. They're not cheap, yeah. Now, okay, so do you remember who at CFNY said, you've got this in the bag? Like, somebody, do you remember? Well, I remember Bookie sort of wink CFNY said, you've got this in the bag? Like somebody, do you remember?

Well, I remember Bookie sort of wink-winking, you know? Yeah. Like it was sort of like it was a done deal. Like it's almost like the postman was, you know, bringing my mail. Oh, way to go, Ron. You guys are going to win. You know, like go to Arby's.

Like it just seemed like everywhere we went, somebody was telling us we're going to win this money. And $100,000. Like imagine, like now it would be a lot of money, but then it was like, for us, it would have been... Wasn't it $50? $50? $50 would have been a lot. Okay, well, when Barenaked Ladies won, it was $100,000 because they made Gordon with

that money, and I've got that on the record. I think it might have been $100,000. Okay, so it was an unfathomable amount of money to us. And in the chronological order of things, if you're not a big Los Lowe fan, this is post-Shakespeare My Butt. By the way, in your doc,

I loved it when Stephen Page's dad and brother are in the doc because they made a comment that they put out the yellow tape by Barenaked Ladies and then distributed Shakespeare My Butt and people started to think that they had an ear for the next big thing. They started thinking they knew what was going on, but it was just a complete fluke of events

that they were both big albums here. Okay, so you think you've got this in the bag. I'm going to play a little bit. I'll turn it up, I should say. Is this happy? Is that what this is? Yeah. Head has two H's in it.

Yes. Is this happy? Is that what this is? Yeah. Okay, bye. Head has two H's in it, just so you know. We know love is best. We have come to detest the one thing we were looking for. We all want the same. Let them say happy again before I bring it back. Just a frame changed above a locked door. Let them say happy again before I bring it back. Yeah. You could have got Noah on a technicality.

I don't think you were allowed to sing on two entries. It's not too late to litigate, is it? That's right. You were robbed. I was robbed, that tells you. And again, I like to cross-promote. There's a really interesting episode of Toronto Mic'd with Noah Mintz where we kind of go through a lot of this. And Noah Mintz and Brendan Canyon, like you mentioned,

are the core of Head with two H's and this is the song Happy and this is the song that wins that contest. Who's playing the drums there? That snare sound is great. I don't even know who's Head's drummer. Hayden. He's just playing the snare. You know, the fun Small World

story is that all summer my son, my third born, played soccer at High park on uh hayden's son's team so once a week i would you know hang out with hayden and uh we became buds so there you go shout out to the high park fc all right now uh do you need a moment there to grab a guitar don't hit your head and law Lawrence, you're the audio guy. Do I need to bring another mic into play? No, I think we'll be good.

Okay, amazing. These are really good mics. We'll probably back up a little bit. Whatever you like. I don't know what we're about to do. I don't know either, but I think it's more fun that way. When you listen to this song as it winds down, Lawrence, do you think,

that's a worthy victor. We were beaten by a head. How did that work? How did that work? Because I seem to remember I was at the, was it five finalists that they'd broken?

I know the Wild Strawberries were also up for it there. They were on the CD. I only know who was on the CD. I actually don't know the finalists. He's stalling so he doesn't have to answer the question. Oh.

Oh, no. Well, everyone was a winner, obviously. Wait, isn't that a boot saw song? That's a boot saw song. No! That's a boot saw song. Everyone's a winner. That was the big cheer.

Boy, that clearly can't be right then. How come there's not a lot of hoopla, I guess, is it? Hoopla or hoopla about the fact this is the anniversary of the 1993 new music surge? You'd think they'd be making a lot of noise. 30th anniversary. Because nobody cares, that's why. No, I'm the last man standing. Yeah, well, we could get a head reunion

if we find out who the drummer is. You know, without head, there probably is no broken social scene. Right. And without broken social scene, maybe there's no stars, maybe there's no feist, maybe there's no...

Was 49 Acres on that as well? That music search? Or was that a previous one? That might have been 91. no was 49 Acres on that as well? that music search or was that the previous one that might have been 91 Sour Landslide were on there as well I remember Shine was on the music search

it was kind of neat back in the day when radio stations did this kind of thing oh yeah it was so great I mean that was I mean

we don't need to tell you about the joys of CFMY my documentary is going to be about the 1993 new music search alright there you go so watch out Simon H to be about the 1993 new music search all right there you go so watch out simon head robbed the 1993 new music search story that'll be the sequel yeah wow huh so what do you what do you want to play run well i got my cape on too so we can play

on a bad day all right because people are like oh man what are the other verses to that yeah what happens after Mother's Day? Probably something good, right? Right. I don't know if I'd take the headphones off. Happy birthday, Joni Mitchell, by the way. She's 80 years old today. Wow.

I'm sure she's listening. It doesn't really seem possible, but she could be maybe. But is she a possibility for you? No, I don't think she's doing much since the stroke, so I don't think so. Well, she's been playing concerts. Check, check, check. She did a show. You can probably hear that.

Okay, this is called On a Bad Day, and it's song three. Song three. Song three on Welcome to the Plunder Dome. Welcome to the Plunder Dome. On a bad day, all I see is war and escalation. On a bad day, all I feel is sadness and frustration. And where the end of history becomes a pop sensation, it's a bad day. Yeah, on a bad day.

Folks have fewer rights than corporations. On a bad day. Workers have to fight for liberation. For decent wages Toilet breaks And even paid vacations On a bad day Now I don't know if I believe They tell me that the arc of history

Is bending in the right degree They tell us to just wait and see And every other day Gilead invokes a new injunction Even Mother's Day On our sisters and our friends And on our lovers So how about women

Taking back the means of reproduction What do you say? Yeah And on a bad day I wake to find that work is uninfected On a bad day

To dinosaurs contesting old elections When picket fences Mike? Yeah, on a bad day Yeah, we go lower And they go even lower On a bad day Justice is a shower Not a grower And Lady Liberty's a great old gal

But you don't know her on a bad day Yeah, it's a sad day When conspiracy becomes a kind of street cred It's a sad day The anthem of the fearful and the brain dead becomes a kind of street cred. It's a sad day. The anthem of the fearful and the brain dead. And those whistles only dogs can hear and serve the fascist dickheads on a bad day. Now I don't know if I believe

they tell me that the arc of history Is better than the right degree But we're not gonna wait and see Cause any given day You're the only thing that I have faith in On a good day We wake up with a sweet anticipation And we're bound to burn this old house down

And build a new foundation Yeah, maybe someday Maybe someday Maybe someday Maybe someday Oh, maybe one day Amazing. Oh my God. Tremendous. Thanks so much for that.

What a treat that is. Thank you so much. So amazing. And you know, now you got to hear yourself again because... I love this song. And I will hear periodically from somebody who hears it in the wild and they really do expect to hear my voice kind of chime in and say, you know, and that. We should bring you out at a show sometime when the song starts. You can come out and say that. Yeah, when Simon Head came over, we talked about that

Shakespeare My Butt song by song doc that people can stream right now. And I, tongue in cheek, only slightly so, said,

hey, maybe, you know, a little, quick little mention about some podcaster in Toronto plays this at the end of every episode.

You know, it was like when you did the Rosie and Grace song. If we had to shout out every podcaster in Toronto plays this at the end of every episode. You know, it was like when you did the Rosie and Grace song. If we had to shout out every podcaster that used our song at the end of the show, Mike. Ron Hawkins, Lawrence Nichols, you guys, great FOTMs. Measure responsibly, but

thanks so much for dropping by and chatting with me about the new album. Thank you, as always, Mike, for all the support and spreading the signal. I love you guys. I love you. See, I'm just going to say it to you guys. I love you guys.

Oh, thanks, Mike. Love you too. Welcome to the Plunder Dome. I still think you're funny, Ron. I really do. Thank you. And that brings us to the end of our 1,361st show.

You can follow me on Twitter and Blue Sky. I'm at Toronto Mike. Now, I know this, okay? Ron's on Facebook. That's where Ron Hawkins lives. But you can follow Lowest of the Low on Twitter. And you can follow Lawrence Nichols on Twitter as well. Are you still actively tweeting? Not as much, but yeah. And Lowest of the Low Lawrence Nichols on Twitter as well. Are you still actively tweeting?

Not as much, but yeah. And Lowest of the Low is on Blue Sky now as well. Although we haven't really done much there yet. Actually, you and Norm will are our entire feed right now.

We'll amplify your messages to our faithful. But I've got to keep that plan B ready just in case Elon charges a dollar a year or something. Yeah, not a chance. Not a chance, Elon. I won't give him a penny.

Get the new album, everybody. Welcome to the Plunder Dome. And much thanks and love to all those who made this possible. That's Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta. I've got your lasagnas in the freezer. Raymond James Canada, Moneris. You guys got your speakersagnas in the freezer. Raymond James Canada. Moneris. You guys got your speakers.

Don't forget your speakers. Recycle My Electronics. A couple of episodes ago, Cliff Hacking came over. We kicked out some recycling jams. It was actually a really fun. I had a good time. We reviewed the new Beatles song. Do either of you have any thoughts on the new Beatles song?

No. None. Not one. Abstain. And Ridley Funeral Home, see you all in a couple of days when my special guest is Sylvia Tyson

from Ian and Sylvia. See you all then. Because I know that's true Yes I do I know it's true Yeah I know it's true How yeah I know it's true How about you?

I'm picking up trash and then putting down roads And they're brokering stocks, the class struggle explodes And I'll play this guitar just the best that I can Maybe I'm not and maybe I am This is the best that I can. Maybe I'm not. And maybe I am. But who gives a damn? Because everything is coming up.

Rosy and gray. Yeah, the wind is cold. But the smell of snow warms me today. And your smile is fine. And it's just like mine. And it won't go away.