Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Ron MacLean: Toronto Mike'd #165

Episode Date: March 30, 2016

Mike chats with broadcaster Ron MacLean about his years hosting Hockey Night in Canada, working with Don Cherry on Coach's Corner, his fallout with Gary Bettman and so much more.

Welcome to episode 165 of Toronto Mic'd, a weekly podcast about anything and everything. Proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, a local independent brewery producing fresh craft beer. I'm Mike from TorontoMic.com and joining me this week is broadcaster Ron McLean. Welcome to the Toronto Mic'd studioscaster Ron McLean. Welcome to the Toronto Mike Studios, Ron McLean. Mike, what a day I've had. I've already learned to use opacity in a sentence from your earlier life. You were on a bit of a job assignment this morning and I got to watch your work and you used opacity and then you said you're going to use finagle. Yeah, finagle. You just did it for me. Thank you. Because we don't use the word finagle.

So you got here a little early. And I also learned from your call, you were on a big conference call with three countries connected, fascinating, Germany, the United States, and Canada. And I'm born in Germany, so I was telling you that's got to be good karma. But I learned as they were positioning a client, and you were a part of this, to say, we've been around for a long time, but we're

also savvy. So that's a good way to try and review my career. You know, this is already an exclusive groundbreaking news, Ron McLean, not born in Canada. Yeah, Air Force. Not many know that, right? No, no, of course. I'm Red Deer, right? Everybody thinks I'm from Red River, as Don Cherry calls it.

But Dad was stationed in Metz, France, and it's a long story, but I was a breach, and there was no hospital on the base in Metz, France. So we were quickly moved over to Zweibrucken, Germany, which was, I think, three-wing. There was Baden-Baden and Lahr and a few German installations, and they had a great hospital there, and that's where I was born. We have something else in common here. I'm a breach, too.

Oh. There you go. There you go. There you go. So forceps, do you know much about your own birth? I was forceps, and they sort of pulled me out. My head was concave for about, I don't know, six weeks. They C-sectioned me out.

Oh, yeah. That's different, yeah. Yeah. Mine was a poor mom. 48 hours in labor, my mom was. Oh, wow. And one of the neat things, I was born on April 12, 1960. And, of course, you never know because you're on the other side of the neat things, I was born on April 12, 1960. And of course, you never know because you're on the other side of the pond what it is back in North

America. But Rocket Richard scored his last ever goal on April 12, 1960. Wow. That means something. Right off the bat, I don't do this. What episode? What are you? 165. Yeah. And I don't do this. I got to tell you, for 30 years, I've been inviting you into my home. Like, Ron McClain has been invited into my living room. I was a young man watching you, and now I watch you with my children. And I just want to say it's an honor to have you here because, you know, Ron and Don on Saturday night is still must-view TV for me and my family. Well, you can imagine, Mike, I started with Don.

I was 26 years old, and he was 52, and now I'm 56 on April the 12th, and he's 82. And I honestly thought a guy like him would have, you know, with the way he approached things, neck in his noose every show, how could he last? And here we are in our 31st season, which is, I mean, it's even hard for me to sort of explain. We're going to definitely do a deeper dive into that, that's for sure. But right off the bat, I got to tell you, you're leaving with beer. So the beer is funny. All of that beer, including this winter ale, you're taking that home. And it's from the Great Lakes Brewery, local independent craft brewery.

And I've had lots of their beer and love it. And, you know, we're both beer league hockey players. You're a beer league hockey dad. And there's nothing like, for me, Tuesdays and Wednesdays are the nights of the week that I play beer league hockey. One's in the Adult Safe Hockey League, which is actually for standings and points. And the other is just a group of guys who've been together for over two decades. And it's all around beer. We go to the Royal Windsor on Ford Drive on Tuesday nights and we go to the Fire Hall in

Bronte on Wednesday nights and it's clockwork and it's just something I look forward to more than hockey night. Did they crack down on beer in the dressing room at the Adult Safe League like they did with us? How about I say yes? It comes in like a garbage bag now and it's

all very... The legal answer is yes. I think it was like they want you to go upstairs. Right, of course, because they have the Thirsty Penguin there. So you're at the one at Martin Grove? No, we're at Ford Drive in Oakville. So we play Tuesday nights in the SHL there. And as you know, in a league, it's anywhere from 6.15 to 11.30 at night.

But we go right to the Royal Windsor after. We don't go upstairs. It was a Don Cherry's actually the first year, and then he never really wanted to get into it, but he got into it, and then he had a one-year deal where he could get out, and he did. So it's Thirsty Penguin. Thirsty Penguin. One thing I remember, if you had a penalty

free game, not that we had many, but you get free, was it nachos or whatever? Nachos, right. We have a guy that just precludes that as a gift for us. That's funny. Good guy, though. He plate of nachos, right. We have a guy that just precludes that as a gift for us. That's funny. Good guy, though. He's our best player, too, but he takes penalties.

When every team needs a good goon. One more thing. The beer is yours. Enjoy that. And then if anybody out there wants to help crowdfund this project, so interesting people like Ron McLean are tricked into coming into my basement and answering all my tough questions, it's patreon.com slash Toronto Mike.

Toronto Mike. No D at the end. So patreon.com slash Toronto Mike. Some recent patrons I want to say hi to is Drew. Who just... Drew and somebody named Thermos, which I think is a great name. And Mike Wise. So the last guest was 11 o'clock CBC Toronto anchor Mike Wise.

And he has also, no pressure, Ron McLean. Maybe this is what I should do. Sell the crowdfunding to the guests. No, terrible idea. Right. Well, you solicited at least the answers. If you can get those, that's a start. So let's start at the very beginning here before you end up at Hockey Night in Canada.

So how did you start your broadcasting career? Well, I had no ambition to get into it whatsoever, Mike. I was planning to go to university and become a teacher. And I was in grade 10, 1976, in Red Deer, Alberta. My dad had moved around a little bit in the Air Force, but we settled in Red Deer when I was 10. So I consider that home. So we're all my formative education, which for me is just junior and senior high school. So I was in grade 10 in Red Deer and I was sitting in the backyard and

my dad came to the door and says, Ronnie, there's a Martin Smith from CKRD radio wants to speak to you. And I thought, oh, good God, what did I do last night? You know, busted. And he said, Bernie Roth, a friend of yours, Ron has been working here at the radio station as an operator and he's sick today and he can't come in, but he said phone Ron. He'll figure it out. It's $3 an hour, a nine-hour shift starting at 3 this afternoon. Would you be interested? Of course.

And I went down, and I started very simple operating. I pushed the station identification button at the top of the clock each hour. It was a CBC repeater FM station. And I played one reel-to-reel tape at 7 in the evening, a show called Symphony Hall. So it was really simple to do. And he said at the end of it, good job, Ron. How about you work every second Sunday from 3 to midnight for $27? And that's how it started, Mike.

I was an operator for maybe, I'd say, seven or eight months. And then they had us read a newscast at midnight. They were shy of their Canadian quotient of news, weather, and sports on this FM station. So they would have us high school kids on there crucifying the news. But I did that, and I was competent enough that they thought, well, maybe he could be a DJ on the AM side, because we always struggle to find reliable people to come in on the weekends. And he's in grade 11. Surely he'll be reliable. And I was.

And that's how it started. I just kept working away at it, filled with anxiety, not knowing what in the world I was doing, but you work at it, you study, and there's no substitute for time. And once I put in the time, it started to click. And suddenly you're a professional. They're paying you to do it.

Right. Yeah, and I was always the class clown and I was always the captain of hockey teams, and so I was sort of born into the idea of communication and putting yourself out there. But like I said, I never understood. I think it was a combination of, you know, puberty, too much alcohol, you know, just I seem to beat myself into whatever the triggers were. I had extreme anxiety and I didn't know how to deal with it. I had no, you know, the whole world

has changed, right? We now really encourage dialogue and understand clouds lift when you talk, but we didn't back then. I was, uh, I thought I was the only human being on the planet that was so insecure and so vulnerable, but I got through it. I remember doing a radio on location in my second year at a stereo shop in North Red Deer and the disc jockey threw to, you know, stereo stop and Ron McLean. And I started to speak and the adrenaline rush hit and 25 seconds later I just ground to a halt. I couldn't carry on. And so the guy's back at the plant saying, Ron, are you there?

And all the people in the stereo store are looking at me thinking, good God, what's going on here? And so they throw to a song and now I know I've got 12 minutes to regroup and they're going to be throwing back to me. And I have, you know, 12 minutes of hell trying to figure out how I'm going to get through the next 60 second commercial, which is a live broadcast commercial. And it was one of those moments, Mike, that somehow I just said it's now or never.

This is my career. If I don't get through this next hit, I'm done. I have to, you know, choose another vocation. And somehow, miraculously, I fought my way through that one. But it was there for a long time. And, you know, like I said, no substitute for time. You eventually kind of outgrow it. Know your triggers.

Know how to escape that fear when you're in it. And I did. Do you have any fear right now? None. No, none. Those triggers. So you basically, you know, to this day, I'm assuming, though, after 30 years, you know, on national television. Yeah, the big thing is to get out of yourself.

For me, at least. The technique is to, you know, there could be caffeine be caffeine like i said it could have been too much beer i was young and crazy like i still am but uh i think i was in a weakened state physically uh that didn't help and then i would uh really think too much about myself yeah of course well and overthinking is kind of a sketchy uh description because i love overthinking i think why else you know we're in art what else would you do but overthink it you should I know it doesn't sound you know Buddhist and it doesn't sound right but I think it's absolutely incumbent on anybody

who chooses the arts to overthink it anyway what I was where I was guilty isn't so much overthinking but thinking about myself as opposed to you the listener you know who am I doing it for really I'm not doing it for me. I'm doing it, part of my thing is to present something that will entertain,

educate, make your day. As long as I stay on that wavelength and get out of, you know, how does Ron McLean look or sound, if you're stuck on yourself, you're going to really stress. And I learned the hard way to, you know, quit thinking about your own role in all of this and keep it on the person you're doing it for

so you're this young man and doing stereo shop hits and Red Deer overcoming anxiety and making a go of it and how do you go from that? And I guess it's 1986, right? Yeah, so ancient, the history, right? I mean, that story of Dave Hodge flipping a pen, you probably know. Oh, we're getting to that. Yeah, it's like years ago now. So when I go out and talk all the time, I find, you know, first of all, my bosses are 26, and my stories are Shakespeare and Cervantes.

They just don't belong anymore. But that's what happened. Well, actually, Dave Hodge accepted a job at CKNW Radio in Vancouver. And he went to Vancouver to work and he asked that whenever there was a game at the Pacific Coliseum in Vancouver, he be assigned to host out west so he didn't have to

travel to Toronto. And they needed a young broadcaster, or some broadcaster, to come to Toronto to take Dave's spot whenever he would not be in TO. And I was 26 years old working for the Flames broadcasts as part of the Hockey Night in Canada conglomerate. They were called Ohmire Communications in that particular year. They went through sort of three incarnations while I was there. They were Canadian Sports Network, then it was Ohmire Communications, then Molstar, a division of Molson. And I was in that sort of stable.

And so they brought me into Toronto to handle 10 Saturday night hockey night in Canada dates. This is the 1986-87 season, plus the 30 Wednesday night Toronto Maple Leaf broadcasts, which were on CHCH out of Hamilton. Dave had done those, but now that he was out west, he was off that. So I had a 41 date gig for $43,000. It was tough, you know, not a lot of money in Toronto. That's not a lot of money. And I remember moving to Oakville and there was no appliances in the place. And I mean, we were flat broke. We did our first Christmas in Oakville. Carrie and I each had $150 to spend, which, you know, was a pair of jeans. Everybody wore expensive jeans. So it was a really humbling kickstart.

And yet, you know, Dave leaves right in that first season. He has a, he was sick of it. He was traveling every weekend. He'd done it for 16 years. Okay, well, let's do this then. It's like 30 seconds long. I'll play the Dave Hodge clip. Okay, great.

This is the infamous pen flip, which, by the way, not much of a flip. Maybe that we've... It's gorgeous, though. Yeah, the thing is, the podcast won't do it justice. You have to find is the infamous pen flip, which, by the way, not much of a flip. It's gorgeous, though. Yeah, the thing is, the podcast won't do it justice. You have to find this, the pen flip. But let's listen to Dave Hodge. So is this the 86-87 season? Yeah, it's March 87. And to set it up a little bit, I've heard Dave speak about this many times,

but I guess earlier in the day, this is his words, he says he was watching curling on CBC. And Breyer, maybe, I think it was Breyer. It was a semifinal, Newfoundland, BC, two rocks to play in the 10th end. You should tell this story. They cut away to the NDP convention in Ontario. Right. Because that was when Bob Ray won the NDP nomination, and he would go on to be premier.

But yeah, so they'd already brutalized the semifinal curling coverage in the afternoon. And now, after a Calgary-Toronto hockey game, we join Montreal-Philly in overtime. But in that overtime, we have to cut away. We have to, because it's bonus coverage, we're not allowed to finish the story and that set Dave off. Alright, let's listen to Dave Hodge on that

fateful night. Now, Montreal and the Philadelphia Flyers are currently playing overtime and are we able to go there or not? We are not able to go there. That's the way things go today in sports and this network. And the Flyers and the Canadians have us in suspense and will remain that way until we can find out somehow who won this game, or who's responsible for the way we do things here. Good night for Hockey Night in Canada.

Great clip. And I was there. I was at Maple Leaf Gardens in Toronto. I was in what we call the client room, Mike, just around the corner from the studio. I watched the whole Doug Sellers, God love him, is no longer with us. Doug died at 50 playing hockey down in California. But Doug was the point person who was having to say to Dave,

Dave said, don't put me on. Please just go off the air and make it look like some kind of a mistake, you know, that we were cut off. But let's not have Hockey Night in Canada tarnished with the same brush that already the curling producers and people are. So he was begging Doug not to put him on camera. And Doug was saying, Dave, you know, you're our guy. You have to make this somehow palatable for the viewer

and sort of get us off the hook here. It is bonus coverage. It wasn't like they watched the Flyers Canadians all night. Right. And he just, yeah, it was an amazing thing to watch. It was the last straw. Like Dave would be better to explain that. Yeah, I got to get him in here.

I think he was just tired and, uh, and he, he, he felt, uh, I mean, he, he, he was entirely right, of course. And that's, that's what made Dave great. Uh, you know, he was always going to be the journalist first and foremost. So, but it was, it was a crazy scene. So then, uh, it happens just, I just was standing right outside the door where he delivered that little monologue. And then he comes roaring into the room where I am and he grabs his coat off.

You know, I'm sick of these guys making me look like an idiot. And then somebody grabbed him, I forget who, and says, Dave, it's okay. We'll go back to the Harbor Castle Hotel, which was a Hilton in those days, a Westin now. And we went, and I'll never forget this, Harry, Neil, and I drove in one car and Dave Hodge went down in another and there was probably about five or six of us at the little bar at the Harbour Castle and Harry Neal at one point turned to me while we were having our beer and he said,

Ron, you should work on your relationship with Don Cherry. He says, that I think is going to be your ticket. Wow. Yeah. Great advice. Through the middle of it. And I, you know, Mike,

I'm not really the kind of guy to take him up on it. And I, you know, Mike, I'm not really the kind of guy to take him up on it. You know, that's too calculated, too, you know, it's not diabolical. It's not the word I'm looking for. But I just, I don't operate really that way. I kind of live in a bit of a, you know, open heart, open mind way of going through things. I don't calculate much of my actions. So anyway, but it was the truth of the matter.

You know, that was going to be my ticket. When Jose Bautista hit the homer in game five of the ALDS, he flipped the bat. And I have a T-shirt, and I love wearing my T-shirt, my Jose Bautista bat flip T-shirt. There's a picture of him flipping the bat on the T-shirt. We need T-shirts of Dave Hodge flipping the pen. Well, in the case of Bautista, I mean, who didn't love

it? But do I love it? No. I don't love it. You know, in a moral, not to be, you know, pious, it's just so... You're talking about Dave Hodge. No, no, no. I love Hodge. Yeah, his pen flipped for sure. But Bautista's not. Okay, back to Bautista. Yeah, Bautista, you know, he did show up as opponent.

And I understand why, you know, the emotionally charged... We can go back and forth on this. There's a lot of people coming out now. I saw Mike Schmidt, who I loved in the 80s. Mike Schmidt has come out to say, yeah, you're showing up the opponent. So I hear you, but I still love the bath flip. Oh, how could you not?

That's like saying I don't like porn, or I don't like alcohol or I don't like car accidents at the Indy 500, of course. But it was game five of the ALDS. This wasn't, you know, a regular season game. It seemed like at that moment, it's sort of, it's not quite a walk-off like Joe Carter where you can, you know,

go nuts, game's over. But symbolically, game over, series over, I feel like that's a moment you're allowed to be exuberant, if you will. It's just risky because it's not risky because of yourself and your team. It's risky because of what it does to inflame the others. Now, in baseball, can that really amount

to much? It's probably not likely that someone's going to come and spike you or hit you in the head with an elbow because you showed them up. But in hockey or football or some of the contact sports, you are looking for trouble. On that note, looking for trouble. Here's a segue for you.

Now, so many of you mentioned on my blog, torontomike.com, I was asking who's got questions for Don. There's a lot of repetitive questions, so I don't get all of them. But one of the obvious questions is somebody says, Dave, I believe, on the blog says, question so I don't get all of them but one of the obvious questions is somebody says Dave I believe on the blog says is Don Cherry the greatest gift you ever received I think that's his exact wording no but he sure is one of them uh you know Don right at the beginning gave me some golden advice that doesn't even apply anymore in the new world order because of social media and the way

the players are engaged in the broadcast themselves. I mean, they communicate and do the public relations marketing more than we, the broadcasters, know. Right, right, yeah. But in the day, when it was, and this was a bad thing, everything was very closed door, and the sanctity of the dressing room was, you know, important, which was dangerous, because that's how Graham James of the world operated.

But in my day, Don's advice was, Ron, don't go down to the player's bench when the morning skate is on, and don't go into the dressing room unless you absolutely have to go into the dressing room. He said, the more you are in the player's faces, the more they'll see you as a floater, a hanger-on. If you keep your distance,

they'll actually respect you and come to you, and you'll establish a chemistry or a relationship. And it was great advice. He taught me, Mike, the pro game. I had the sort of Pollyanna version of sport that we all have, if you've never played in the NHL and have it as your livelihood.

We sort of see the team concept and the rah-rah. And you can have that rah-rah with world juniors and you can have that with collegians and you can have it with junior teams. And even in the National Olympic team, you can get away with it. But it's not the truth of the NHL. The truth of the business is it's so cutthroat. You know, the black ace absolutely hates everybody because he's not

playing. It's a really, really difficult goal. And Don taught me that. Without him, I wouldn't have had the sense of it. All right. Now, one of the hashtags I use for this podcast is real talk. So let's talk about, so you, tell me about the origins or the origin story of you teaming up with Don Cherry. You kind of alluded to it earlier, but how you end up with him and what was the relationship like at the very beginning? It was strained and it was strained for a couple of reasons because I had bosses, Don McPherson and Bob Cornell, who were very, you know, CBC, it's funny, in the world of our business, there's two ways you can be shackled. One is the almighty dollar, which would be the case for all of us working,

let's say, for a corporation. Or you can be shackled by politics, which would be the case of the CBC, who is at arm's length getting money from the government, who is answering to boards of directors who are indirectly or directly connected to government. So there's always somebody trying to control the message. And with Don, my thing was two very CBC bosses trying to explain, you know, we cannot have Don Cherry offending people in Quebec, or we cannot have Don Cherry offending people who believe in safety first. And, uh, it was really a challenge for me to say, you know, what, what I felt was whoever I have on as

my guest, I want the very best of them. And I want an unfiltered, uncensored, uh, opinion from them. And then it's my job to try and challenge it. Now there wasn't really, it never is the time to do a proper job of that, but, uh, I just want the very best of the guest. And then, you know, rather than putting words in their mouth, like the bosses were trying to get me to do, and I didn't do well at that for the first little while I was sort of, uh, I could, I can see it on my face.

I could see the conflict in, in, and I, I I'm 56, as I said, in April. And I still experienced that conflict when I'm on the air and realizing that I have so many masters to try and please. Right. And there's just no time to do justice sometimes to the real ethics behind a great interview, which is just a grind for any of us in this walk. So you mentioned strained. Now, you and Don Cherry, very different people, it's fair to say. Yeah, and yet not.

You know, he's right-wing political, I'm left-wing, he's Protestant, I'm Catholic. We're different generations, and there's a lot, you know, research that says the five generations have different sensibilities. But we both like beer, cold beer, and we're both, I think, really, really empathetic individuals.

I think, love, you know, I've got so many simple memories of Don Cherry. One is walking in New York City. We'd just seen Tony Bennett. He goes by. So, you know, that's New York City, right? And there's two women in a fountain. It's a hot, hot day during the Stanley Cup in 1994. And there's two women in this fountain cooling down.

And Don says, what a couple of dames. You'd love to have dames like that on your hockey team. And then we're carrying on down this street and a woman walks by, heavily made up, wig, and she's just over the top with her, everything, her fashion, her makeup. And Don says, and she had to be about 70.

He says, I love that. She's still trying. And those are two, they kind of sum Don up. He loves the fun, the mischief of the two in the fountain. He loves the consistency of the 70-year-old who's still trying. And boy, I relate to both

those qualities. So there's a lot of similarities too. Actually, this question, I'm going to ask my question first, which is basically how often do you have to bite your lip sometimes when Don goes off the rails, if you will? I mean, not really. One time recently was when he said we shouldn't have female reporters in the dressing room. And, you know, again, I can understand what he's saying about how certain guys in a, you know, supercharged postgame, you're going to have an ethical breakdown sooner or later with that dynamic.

So it's not wrong to sort of talk it through, you know, but it really ticked me off that there was no time to sort of counter that argument with the reason why a woman in the dressing room is so vital is that for as long as time, you know, we got into some of the trouble we got into in sport, it was because we had a white, male, sort of singular point of view, representing the reporting industry. We didn't have anybody with a with another sort of idea of how to say things or shape things. So we needed that was obviously, you know, it's same with ethnic, ethnicity and gender, all these areas that we've opened up our world, thank God, you just need it.

Otherwise, you have a very small prism through which to see things. Does Don know you were born in West Germany? Oh, yeah. I just realized all the, it's usually it's Swedes I notice, but the anti-European sentiment throughout the years. Well, he's a construction worker.

Don's, you know, and again, this is, I think we all kind of understand these are generational sometimes arguments, but he, Don at core is a construction worker who, again, and I should emphasize, it's no different than the hockey player who sort of sees everyone else in that room as pretty much the enemy.

They're going to take your job. You know, Wendell Clark can tell you when they broke in, Dave Keon is much beloved, but Dave Keon was really tough on rookies, and he passed that trade on to the next group, whether it was Rick Vive or whomever, they were going to be tough on rookies because those guys were a threat to this person's livelihood.

It's very cutthroat. And Don sees that and, you know, he used to get really mad, again, sort of rightfully so, when Detroit fell in love with the Fab Five Russians, led by Sergei Fedorov, and he just felt like Stevie Eisenman wasn't getting his due. And, you know, he always thought that, you know, oh, the superior skill set of the European.

And, you know, he saw the Gretzky's and the Eisenman's and the Lemieux's and so on and felt like, couldn't we have a voice too? So he, granted, you know, you can see that they're wrapping, or he is wrapping himself just like politicians do in flag and country. But it's okay. You know, you want a little bit of that. You just need balance. And it's, God, if you can figure that out, Mike, tell me.

Yeah, and it's one thing to wrap yourself in the Canadian flag, but you mentioned it earlier, where it gets sticky, especially when you're on the CBC, is when you sort of, you know, if it's any anti-Quebec or anti-French suggestion. And I can tell you that when we worked the Sochi Olympics in 2014 in Russia, Shirely Najak was the producer of the telecast, and he and I are like-minded. And I did not show the medal standings once in 16 days. Not once. Pierre de Coubertin, who created the modern Olympics, that was his big thing.

It's not about Germany versus Canada versus Russia. It's about you challenging yourself to be great. And I didn't want that comparable. I ignored it for 16 days and not one person noticed. Wow. That's incredible. Yeah, isn't it? Yeah, that's incredible.

We think, you know, it's really important to be a little bit better than the Americans. And you know those rivalries exist, of course. And that's why the Olympics and why World Cups and so on succeed. But I wouldn't encourage it. I don't foster that notion one bit. Rob J. on Twitter is asking, have you ever regretted not pushing back harder on Cherry after one of his more obviously offensive views? Well, I just explained the one about female reporters in the dressing room. And I'll give you an example.

Sorry, what was the name of the... Rob J. Rob, you know, I'll give you an example of where I try to be this ethical canary. And I have walked into so many silly situations. One of the good ones was Chris Simon, who is a First Nations Ojibwe from Wawa, Ontario. Chris had received a 30-game suspension for cross-checking Ryan Holweg of the New York Rangers.

Sat out the 30 games, came back, and in his second game upon his return, he stomped on Yarko Rutu of the Pittsburgh Penguins and got a 25-game suspension. So Grapes on the coach's corner says, you know, I'm not saying he should have done it. Of course he shouldn't have done it, but I will say neither guy missed a shift in 55 games.

That seems a bit much to me. And I said, Don, one of the things that I've noticed about this whole conversation is people ask, how could a player get 30 games, then come back and commit another crime worth 25 games? So it really brings into question the validity of supplementary discipline and whether or not our approach is working. And I said, but one of the thoughts I have is Chris's First Nations Ojibwe. A lot of kids in Canada growing up in First Nations communities don't feel like they get a fair shake. Maybe Chris just didn't abide the initial suspension and didn't believe it was legitimate

in the first place. And Don turned to me and he says, what are you saying? Because he's an Indian, he's got an inferiority complex. And I was like, oh my God, what have I started? And so, no, of course I regret. Pushback is a really complicated thing because I don't have all the answers. God knows I study it endlessly. I read Montaigne, and I read Cervantes and Shakespeare and Harold Bloom, and I read Joseph Heller, and I read Bill Moyers, and Margaret Somerville, and lots of

John Ralston Saul. I spend my whole life has been reading about ethics to try and understand Dershowitz, to try and understand how we get rights from wrongs. There's not much opportunity to use this knowledge, but it's forever in the back of my mind in every interview I do. And what really I sort of have gleaned from my quest for wisdom is wisdom is knowing what to overlook. Not to correct, not to shape, it's knowing what to overlook. So I will provide the vehicle for you to be your best, and then I will hopefully know to overlook it if it's not what's right.

Wow. Does Don know you read all those books? Oh, yeah. He sees me reading them on planes. And Louis Lapham is my hero. He was the longtime editor of Harper's Magazine in the United States. And he wrote a book called Lights, Camera, Democracy. And it's really an investigation into journalism.

And I'll give Don passages to read. I have a great book by Lapham. It's called End of the World, which was put out right after 9-11. And Lapham essentially forecast 9-11. I don't want to be too dangerous here. But I read all this stuff, again, for the sake of a simple interview and knowing what's the right way to say

you choked, you struggled, you were human? It's a really interesting opportunity that this industry gives. That's why I'm here, right? I mean, you know, this is what we do. And you don't take it lightly, for sure. I thought you were here for the free beer. Well, I will probably sound a lot more Aristotle once I get a few of them in me. The voice of reason.

That's his name. I'm not saying he's the voice of reason, but he calls himself, I think it's a he, I shouldn't even say that, but the voice of, maybe it's a he, she, but the voice of reason on torontomic.com. First of all, his premise is that you're always stressed on Coach's Corner. I don't necessarily

agree with that, but I guess that's his words. But what he's asking is have you ever gotten upset with Don Cherry off camera because of something he said? First of all, let me say about the stressed. I am stressed, and I'll tell you why I'm stressed. It's five minutes or six. And I am processing the entire time

trying to predict how long it will take Don to complete the thoughts of the last two points in the coach's corner. It might be an obituary for a fallen soldier. It might be Rob Ford. You know, something really heavy such as that. Or it might be a great thing about

a guy that had a Gordie Howe hat trick. But I got to try and figure out, while we're doing Coach's Corner, how to get this thing done in six, maximum 630. And that is unbelievably stressful. What's the history of length? Like, where did you start at, and what are you at now?

And tell me, I'm trying to get a gauge for you. We sort of stretched it probably in the heyday to maybe seven and a half. That was as long as we ever got. We were always around six, and we're right now at six. Back to it. Because you were five, right? We were down to five last year.

When Don was vocal about that. That's right, yeah. And it was impossible. You literally can't address two subjects in five minutes. And to have back and forth, to have the repartee that leads to a really good segment, you know, I always, it's a simple formula, but when they were Regis and Kathy Lee, and now that show, you know, carries on with just that 15-minute banter off the top of a telecast, I love that.

And I pine for that moment where you can actually take a breath and not be on the clock because the clock does not meet out respect. So no matter how long and how good Don Cherry has been, it's not going to be a companion to his wishes. That's why there's no clock in this room. Yeah, exactly.

It's when you tell me, I got to go, Mike, wrap this up. Yeah, that's right. Beer's getting warm. Not down here. No, so there's that stress. And then as far as the question off air, the one time I got mad at Don was years ago

when I was young and didn't know any better. And he said on the Coach's Corner, it wasn't even Coach's Corner, it was the post-game show of a Calgary Flames Stanley Cup game in 1989. And he was wearing, Don Cherry was, wearing a red blazer. And he said to me on the television,

you should be wearing this red blazer. You're such a Flames fan. And I got off the air and I was just livid. I says, Don, you can't say that. It's very unprofessional. You know, people think I'm prejudiced and it's terrible. But it was silly. I was just, you know, I was probably tired. But that's a good point. I mean, I'm

a Leaf fan, so I don't notice the I don't care about the bias. Don Cherry clearly has a bias. Yes. And I always wondered, like, imagine I were like a Sens fan or any other team. You would hate that. Mike Keane of the Montreal Canadiens, Kirk Muller, because he's Kingston boy, he always say, Mike Keane hated Don Cherry.

Mike Keane should have been Don Cherry's kind of guy, this player who was a ferocious checker and all heart, but he hated Don because Don was so pro-Toronto. And the only fact of the matter is Don's, as we all know, dumb like a fox, right? In the end, we get 2 million viewers if the Leafs are on, and we get 400,000 if the Ottawa Senators or the Habs are on. So, I mean, it's not a bad idea to be a Leaf fan.

Yeah, I mean, center of the universe, come on. But, and this is, what was I going to say? About quickly, about the six minutes, you were down to five and now you're back to six at the coach's corner. My perspective, as a fan guy who tunes it in, you know, we get two intermissions during the game. The game is king, you know,

that's the content we tune in for. You know what, Mike, though, that's not totally true. The show is king. The show is king. The show is king. There's a lot of hockey out there. And you sound, especially as a person involved in it, self-aggrandizing to say it,

but the show is king. You have to produce a good hockey show, a meaningful hockey show, very important. So you can't just rely on the game because there's a lot of hockey. True, but I've had James Duthie on the show, a meaningful hockey show, very important. So you can't just rely on the game because there's a lot of hockey. True. But I've had James Duthie on the show, for example, and he's doing the TSN games when they get the regional games, which is all they have left.

And then Rogers has everything else, and they're in charge of the programming now. It used to be CBC would do this, Hockey Day in Canada. Now it's on CBC, but Rogers controls it. Right. So a lot of people are, I'll hear from people who will tell me maybe they preferred the way CBC did it, or they'll tell me, oh, I like the way TSN does it better. Sure, right. And I always say, though, if it's Saturday night and Leafs and Habs, the game, you're going to go to where the game is. Oh, no, no, content.

So you're right. Like, I could be, respectfully, I could be the host, and you'd probably tune in to watch the game. If you're to back away from game versus show, content is king first. You are right. You need to have that. Like that's the meal ticket. We're tuning in for the game. Of course.

But around that game, there's two intermissions. That's right. The only part of the two intermissions I watch, Coach's Corner. Yeah. And I actually plan when I put the toddler to bed is all timed around. I want to hear it done. And I should point out, I've been accused. I didn't wear my left-wing pinko t-shirt today, but maybe because I cycle a lot. Okay. But I've been accused of being a left-wing pinko. And a lot of people are like,

how can you listen to that dinosaur? Not you, the other guy, Don Cherry. How can you listen to him in these archaic views? And I'll be honest, I often disagree with Don Cherry, but I love listening to his opinions and his stories and the way he presents it. And you're an excellent foil to him. And to me, this, you know, this whole five versus six, that to me is the highlight of the two intermissions is going to be that coach's corner package. I'd hate to see why they would take away a minute.

Well, yeah, I think it was just part of their, you know, reshaping, remessaging two years ago when the Rogers had to invent or felt that they had to invent for their $5 billion investment a show with some rebranding. Obviously a new host, some different elements within the telecast. But I'm a

firm believer in, even as different sociopolitically as it might be to my thinking, I am a firm believer in the wisdom of your elders. And Don, as you know, different sociopolitically as it might be to my thinking, I am a firm believer in the wisdom of your elders. And Don, as you said, his experience in the game, I mean, honestly, his best friends are Bobby Orr and Brian Kilray, the greatest player or one of the two,

and the greatest junior hockey coach in history. So his fountain, you know, from which to draw is just so invaluable to us. And, yeah, I mean, it's to maintain, see Saturday night, we're lucky. There's not much else on television. In the United States, they've given up on Saturday nights. It's a TV wasteland. They program old movies. Not much goes on in Canada either.

It is the night we have sort of assigned to hockey. So that's a great night for a guy that's been in the business 82 years to have a forum. And I always said to Don, if I happen to, you know, fall off a turnip truck and die, you know, just do the Andy Rooney. You know what I mean? Just do what Andy did for 60 Minutes. You do it yourself. Sit in your basement and tell us a story for five

minutes and we would love it. You know, it's a great comparison. I love Andy. I used to, my highlight of 60 Minutes was Andy Rooney. I collect typewriters. I still write my letters on a typewriter. Like, I love it. And Don could, you know, what Don should do for a show, he should

do that, but he should also just take a newspaper. He is unbelievable at having an opinion on each and everything that's in the paper. So just start page one, open it, go on, give us a view on that and go on. You'd be spellbound. My life is ethics. His life is studying the divas, the actors and actresses in Hollywood. He reads nothing but biographies. Emerson always said there's no such thing as history, only

biography. And Don's a big biography reader. He read a lot of war, you know, back in the day when he was coaching, he relied on Sir Francis Drake and Lord Nelson. But now it's all about Hollywood and how to get your message across. And that was Mark Twain always said, that's the mark of the intelligence, right? It's the ability to communicate your message. And he does it. He has an amazing power to be able to say what he's thinking. It's really impressive. The reason this podcast exists today

is because I wanted to hear stories. Like I was tired of the, forget five minutes, six minutes. That sounds like a lot today. Like when you listen, yeah, you hear people come on, they're going to do a hit on like a terrestrial radio station

or whatever. You know, two and a half maybe, but it's like, you know, you can't dig beneath the surface and have a conversation and get an interesting story in like two and a half minutes. You get like a soundbite. I'll tell you, Mike, you know, this weekend we're in Winnipeg and they have the Canadian Museum of Human Rights.

So it's a fantastic homage to all these kinds of thinkings, thoughts. So we've got, that will happen. Tara Sloan will do a piece at the museum and we'll show some of the amazing things we've had a chance to at least explore in the sense of exposure. Gender identity. We had Chase Blodgett, a trans man living in Yukon Territory. We've had Clint Malarchuk with his addiction issues. We've had Sheldon Kennedy and Swift Current with his incredibly powerful documentary,

Swift Current, and obviously his advocacy on behalf of sexual abuse for particularly young. So Sheldon was, I went and saw his movie last night at the Hockey Hall of Fame. Lanny McDonald hosted a little deal, and he was talking about the various silos into which we pigeonhole ourselves, whether it's addiction or homelessness or incarceration or mental health. And he was explaining it's all the same. Stress, trauma, all these things are the same. So when we go to Winnipeg this weekend,

Chris Pronger is going to be there. Chris is now with the player safety department. And you know the fighting and hockey issue and concussions is just a massively big subject right now. And so here you've got Chris Pronger, who had a concussion, who was a tough guy, who was involved in discipline, who has seen it all. And I just pine for that 30-minute interview

with Chris Pronger. Just Chris Pronger and Tara and, you know, however we do it. But what I've dealt with is two minutes for each of those subjects I mentioned, sexual abuse, transgender identity issues. It's so tough. And it's a hockey show.

And back to your point, I know we tuned in to see the Leafs and the Habs, but I think you have to round it out. I think, you know, where I saw that was Brett the Hitman Hart, the wrestler, just went through prostate cancer, had his surgery on February the 10th, and I went on to his website and read all the comments of people writing in to Brett the Hitman Hart, and I assumed, wrongly, be a bunch of wrestling fans saying, go get him, Tiger.

Right, right. It was every one of them was Shakespeare. Every fan who wrote in had an unbelievably well thought through and beautiful comment to make. So it is more than just hockey, always. Don and, oh, where was I going? Oh, yeah. So I like the conversation.

Remember that? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Don has, I would say, no less than, I want to say, a million stories. And that might be undercutting it. And because not only on Coach's Corner,

you know, he's had many stories, but he's been doing the radio hits, Grape Line. Grape Line? Yeah, that's right. Because there's Grape Vine. The TV show he had.

Right. Which is Grape Line. And so I'm curious, naturally curious. He does Grape Line. And I, so I'm curious, naturally curious. He does Grape Line with Brian Williams. Why not? Why, why is he not doing Grape Line with Ron McClain? Well, I think it was before I even came around.

I could be wrong on that, but you know, I think, I think Brian and Don started right around the time I got to Hockey Night in Canada in any event. 1986 is that year. But yeah, he's just, that's a, they worked together on World Juniors back in the 80s. right around the time I got to Hockey Night in Canada in any event. 1986 is that year. But yeah, he's just, they worked together on World Juniors back in the 80s, famously at P.S. Stanley one time.

Right, right. So yeah, they have a long, long relationship that, you know, again, if I was going to do anything, I would rather the long form. You know, and there's been lots of talk about a podcast, but I can't do it, Mike,

unless I can totally commit to it. That's one of the things that I'm also big on is preparation. My door's open to you and your schedule. Anytime you want to come here, we can record the Ron McLean show. I'd love to, but it's just going to have to take a less frantic time in my life. Sure. So then it goes the other way. So if he might have did Grape Line first with Brian Williams, who was a CBC employee, it's

interesting, he didn't get the Coach's Corner. Like, it seems like, so he's got these two partners. Well, I can tell you, there is history to that. The conversation that was held when Dave Hodge ultimately was moving off the air. So this is March 1987, and the sort of principals who were involved

were Don Wallace, who was executive producer at Hockey Night in Canada. And they really, really considered either Brian McFarlane, promoting Brian back up. He had been in a bit of hot water with the Toronto Maple Leafs. Harold Ballard had him sort of exiled to Montreal for helping Daryl Sittler take a stance against Punch Imlach when Imlach traded Lanny McDonald.

So Brian, you know, they knew they had a proven veteran, respected broadcaster in Brian McFarlane, and they had Brian Williams who they could give the job to. And then it was a guy named Jim Huff, whose father Ted was with the corporation. And Jim said, you know what? I think we're better off moving away from an established player or broadcaster, just even if only for a year.

You know, it's almost like what they did with George Strombolopoulos, you know, kind of go outside the box, bring in a guy that nobody has any sense of. And that's what they did with me. They just thought better to take a chance on, uh, cause you're not going to replace Dave Hodge. Like a fresh face. Yeah. Better to go with some, you know, maybe the empathy or sympathy factor will get us through this. But so that's how I got the job was Jim Huff's recommendation. And, uh, you know, they paired me with Don and we were an instant, uh, Don is the kind of guy that on first blush will know if you're with him or against him.

I always remember, this is a, I hope Brandon Shanahan won't be embarrassed by this, but Shanahan always told me he used to love to watch the highlights of the Detroit games. There's a corner camera at Joe Lewis arena and the corner camera would show him in the slot scoring the goal, but more important than that, it would show the Red W show him in the slot scoring the goal but more important than that it would show the red wings bench in the shot and he could see from the reaction on the bench who was

with him and who was against him fascinating that's the cutthroat industry it is right so yeah and and don when he meets you he he kind of sizes up instantly whether you approve of him or disapprove of him and somehow i must have shown a respect and a an adoration or something right that we got you in the good books yeah that's right you know i'm obligated to tell you when of him. And somehow I must have shown a respect and an adoration or something. Right. That we clicked immediately. Catching the good books. Yeah, that's right. You know, I'm obligated to tell you when you mentioned Brendan Shanahan, I'm obligated to

tell you we went to the same high school. Oh, good. And he's a Mimico boy, which is you can throw a rock at him, Mimico, from here. I go to the Birds and the Beans all the time for coffee. Yeah. I bike by that all the time because it's on

the waterfront trail. It's beautiful. Norris Crescent. Yeah. Awesome. Now, a quick note here. So back in, I thinkrescent. Yeah. Awesome. Now, a quick note here. So back in, I think it was 01 and 02 season. Is that, when did you have the big

salary? Yeah, 02. So it was, and what had happened is what kind of got me on that, I hope this isn't boring to the listener, but we're doing the Detroit Stanley Cup against Carolina and we're at Jolius Arena, Detroit and CBC had lost the French

language version of the Montreal Canadiens broadcast to RDS. TSN had procured the rights. So Robert Rabinovich was sort of a head guy at CBC, and he had a feature produced that was to run on our broadcast of Hockey Night in Canada, saying that it was CBC's inalienable right to own these rights, the Montreal Canadiens broadcast, because we have the greater reach across the country. And I said, what's happening here?

What are we doing? We're running a piece justifying us having the rights, even though we were outbid on game five of the Stanley Cup. So I'd had it. I was just in a mood and they were trying to shape,

again, I can't stand that when, you know, some corporatization or political in this case entity tries to shape the broadcast. So I sort of took a stand. I'm coming back to the CBC on my terms. You know, I'll get Donnie Meehan and he can go in and he asked for a crazy amount of money, say close to a million dollars a year, which I was never going to get from the CBC. But so they broke off talks and that was it. I was done. And then by a miracle, because this is pre-Twitter, pre-social media. But, but, before you beat the miracle, probably the blog entry I wrote at the time on TorontoMike.com

probably has a lot to do with this, but please continue. Well, I apologize for not thanking you first. But yeah, there was a good backlash. Labatt, a major sponsor, said, you know, your problem, CBC, has suddenly become our problem. What are you going to do about it? And I got through it. And, you know, I would have been happy to move on. I really would have. I'm honestly not tied to Hockey Night or any other, like I said, my life is, I was joyous being a disc jockey in Red Deer, a weatherman in Red Deer, and I'm happy doing this. It's easy to say.

I probably would have missed the salary, of course. But principally speaking, the talent, what's in it for the talent, which is what we always call the performer, is the joy of doing it. And you don't need to be at Hockey Night in Canada to experience that. It's funny, at that time, there were lots of polls

and radio stations and discussions about who would take over Ron McLean's spot on Coach's Corner if, you know, there's, they couldn't meet his demands or whatever. And Brian Williams was one of the common kind of responses. Well, you know, I think Don would have to answer that because he and I just have, again, you know, a real good hockey sort of shared. We see a lot of the same things. And here's another interesting thing, Mike, that's happened in our world is that, you know, Don and I just look, you know Don, he's not on social media, he tweets through Kathy Broderick.

Right, he emails her or does he leave a voicemail? Yeah, he usually leaves a voicemail. Because that's how Larry King tweets the same way. He leaves a voicemail and then somebody types. Bless her heart, right? And it's never really a tweet, it's a blog. Oh yeah, oh yeah. When Don starts at the one, I say, okay, let's

see where this is going. And we got, you know, eight or nine of them coming out. That's right blog. Oh yeah, oh yeah. The Don, when Don starts with the one, I say, okay, let's get, let's see where this is going. And we got, you know, eight or nine of them coming out. That's right. But so he does that. But that's how, you know,

we just watch hockey. We go by the eye test. Now, you know, in the, in recent years, when I was still doing Hockey Night in Canada, say two years ago, we'd have Kevin Weeks,

Glenn Healy, PJ Stock, Elliot Friedman. And Glenn watched the game and PJ watched the game, but Kevin or Elliot, you know, everybody's on social media the whole night and they're learning things. Better to have a million sets of eyes than yours, right?

So they are getting things out of the game. They can feel the zeitgeist. Like what are people talking about right now? Well, there's that too, right? Yeah, obviously. But I've sort of steered clear of that. Like, I'll usually do a check at the end of the Hometown Hockey broadcast, because I live in fear that we'll, you know,

go to Prince Albert and forget to mention Johnny Bauer. So there's usually a check at the end of the evening just before we sign off to make sure I haven't omitted somebody of significance. So you are on Twitter, but you're doing your own tweets, right? But I only tweet a blog.

I tweet my blog once a week, which is a hometown hockey experience and painstakingly written. And like you, I'm very proud of them. But that's pretty much the only tweeting I do. Everything else to me feels like I would have jumped the shark and gotten into things. As I told you, my anxiety coping mechanism is to get outside of myself. That would bring me right back into myself and I can't go there. Let's talk about a relationship

that maybe hasn't gone as smoothly as your relationship. I realize now it's too long. I'm actually not going to play it. I'll start this. Happy birthday to you. Philadelphia, 2010. Good singer, by the way.

Kudos to you. So instead of playing this, maybe we'll have you just talk about it. But you have Gary Bettman to talk to him on Hockey Day in Canada. I'd love to have him on this weekend, too. I mentioned that Chris Pronger would tie into this whole thing. And I thought Gary came off looking well in the emails that were released in the Denver courtroom. You know, he looked like, again, the voice of reason. He was doing a great job of sort of in a lawyerly way, but also in a, you know,

I think that's one of the strengths of Gary and it really ticks me off that he could never sort of feel. And I don't think it was even Gary. I think it was John Collins came over from the NFL and certain other people just said, and lots of owners and certainly Jimmy DeVolano in Detroit has lambasted me and, you know, Brian Burke would get hot at me and they all wanted me to back off Gary and give him a, I don't know if it was a kinder, gentler interview, but I just felt this was a subject, uh, who really had the wherewithal to go. You know, he, he was ethically inclined. He was lawyerly inclined. Uh, he had the power. Uh, this is a guy that I really want to challenge and I loved it. And loved it. And I don't think he hated it. I think they just felt like there were times

he felt like he was just made to look the fool and they just figured it wasn't important to have that. All right, good. You can put some clarity on this. I want to call it a rumor because I don't think it's ever been, we've never heard from Gary or whatnot. But there's a rumor or a feeling out there

and some people treat it like this is fact now, where you have a falling out with Gary Bettman, and that's the reason you're replaced as host of Hockey Night in Canada a couple of years ago. And only he could know that, right? You know, I've certainly heard it. I do know that if you were to go to Scott Moore or anybody at Rogers, the league wasn't happy with me.

CBC would tell you this. Terry Ludwig is one name that comes to mind. I remember having this argument with him at an All-Star in Carolina. And Nancy, everybody, all my bosses were continuously after me to be a better partner. And I, you know, that again is a sort of an ethical thing. I do not treat the listener or the viewer as a client, a customer, a partner. I treat them as a citizen. And it's just, you know, I will not back down from that.

If I have to lose my job for, you know, suddenly trying to speak as a corporatized voice, no chance. I'll step back from the herd every time and think for myself on that. It's a shame, from a listener perspective, it's a shame that this even exists. And I remember,

and I don't know if you listen to Mike Wilner ever talk about Blue Jays baseball, but I remember Mike Will, well, he was on and we talked about it and he was suspended for a couple of weeks because of comments about Cito Gaston. Rogers owns Blue Jays, the Blue Jays.

And it just seems like nowadays it feels like if you, you know, they want you to play nice with their corporate entities, if you will. Of course. And it's just ugh. It is. And yet, you know, if Greg Zahn, I think, gets to walk the line a little more, you know, it'll depend on the voice, right? Don Cherry's going to get away with it. The former

athlete, somebody pointed this out, and Mike Toth, maybe? Somebody pointed out that if you look at the people who are allowed to kind of criticize the, bite the hand that feeds, if you will, it's the former athletes that usually get designated. Like Don can do it. You're right. That's right.

And Greg Zahn can do it. And maybe Ron McLean can't do that. That's right. And, you know, again, I just work within the parameters as best I can. You know, it might have. And again, you and I are just saying that, you know, it's a hypothetical. Did the league finally say we need Ron McLean on Hockey Night in Canada? I think the guess,

I think it happened that way. But I don't know that. There's no written proof. No, they're not going to. Even the Wilner, because Wilner, that's what it looks like. He criticizes Cito,

and then he's suspended. Right, that's right. But they don't actually, then Rodgers won't come out and say, we're suspending, we're not telling you why. And the flip of it, thank God, is that I do like the hometown hockey. It's a, you know, we've got lots of challenges.

Sunday night's a tough night. We don't get the matchups because they have to sort of tailor their matches. You don't get many leave games. Three a year. So you have lots of obstacles to overcome, but in principle, the idea is fantastic. And it's a joy after 20, well, I guess 29 years at Hockey Night.

You know, probably was time anyway. So there's that. But there's nobody, no viewer was Hank saying, you know, Ron McLean's a problem. We got not a single Canadian. Maybe the odd Canucks fan, because I had really drilled Alex Burrows. Who cares about Canucks then?

That's right, the Alex Burrows, that's right. Oh boy, that was a funny one. But yeah, no, not everybody's going to like you and you know that. But yeah, it wasn't necessary, but it's, like I said, for me it was, you know, it was a break. I really have enjoyed this opportunity to get out and

just, I'm frustrated by the lack of time, you know, to actually go in depth with all those opportunities given to us. But that's always been the frustration. George Strombolopoulos has been on the show, and he talked about when he took over for a popular longtime broadcaster, it was very similar to when you took over for Dave Hodge. Totally. Yeah, it's identical. You can't win. The incumbent's going to have the advantage of a long-term relationship.

People are very comfortable with that. When I moved to Toronto, we just lost Wally Crowder this year. And I remember I wanted to hear this fabled CFRB show, and at first I didn't get it. I didn't understand what was so great about Wally and Bill Stevenson and everything else. And I was actually kind of impressed with a guy named Larry Fedorek. That was the guy that I really thought was doing something special on radio. Uh, cause it was the

big smoke, right? This was, this was the pinnacle of radio and I was a big radio guy, but I learned and I grew to appreciate Wally once I sort of got the shtick and that's like, you know, you, that just goes to show there's always that sort of time of, uh, coming to understand a person and, and know them. So, uh, with poor So with poor George, you're walking into a... And there's lots of things about the way the telecast is done that I thought, I couldn't make that work. They had puck walls and all these different... The old adage is, Mike, the show or the movie or the play

has to be good before it reaches the camera. You can't have fancy camera work and fancy sets. Poor guy Lawrence, head of Rogers, he showed me the set, you know, the mock set designs two years ago. And I said, well, guy, they don't go back to someone's house because you like the furniture.

So it's a set. It's a set. It's got nothing to do with what's coming out of the mouths of the people trying to communicate a story. And a story is everything. And you can't tell a story if you're worried about walking two steps to the left and four

steps up and pulling a puck out of a, just so challenging. And, and it made it difficult for everyone and it would have made it difficult for me. So not an easy, not an easy thing for George. And he's done an incredible job of hanging with it for sure. Uh, yeah, he, um, so I guess that was my next

question was, uh, how, how's he doing? I think great. Uh, guess that was my next question was, how's he doing? I think great. You know, I mean, George is... But not as good as you, right? Well, I seem to be lucky to be doing a show where I have a role. And maybe George, I'm sure George does. In fact, I think there might even be a producer

credit in his title. But yeah, for me, it's just, I think, an easier show to go and, you know, like when I did did the battle of the blades, we were kind of starting from scratch, right. Creating a show, but kind of using a template that Sandra Bezic and Kurt Browning understood. And in the case of the hometown hockey show, we've obviously borrowed from hockey day in Canada or once in once a year grassroots celebration. So we, we are dealing with a known, known, hopefully, we've been around for a while, but we still have savvy, like I learned from you earlier in the day today. That's what makes doing what I'm doing a little easier than I think it's been for the Hockey Night crew.

But tell me, do you miss hosting Saturday Night Hockey Night Canada? Nope, not one bit. Nope, not one bit. Honestly, and God strike me dead, I would miss not playing Wednesday night beer league hockey that's, you know, I would miss not playing Wednesday night beer league hockey. But, you know, I hate to say it,

but I always, in my first book, Cornered, I talked about, you know, my dream is to sell 16-ounce sodas, do silkscreen t-shirts, and run a little bar called The Wherewithal on a beach somewhere. It's a dream, of course, and I know I'd be unsatisfied with it a week, but I definitely am not that tied to what I do for a living.

In my expert opinion as a longtime viewer of hockey in this country, I feel Ron McLean is underutilized during the podcast. You don't have to even comment. I'm just throwing that out there. I think Ron McLean is underutilized these days at the new Rogers broadcasts. What am I going to say? What are you going to say to that, right? You're damn right you are. Okay, let's just change the channel a little bit here.

Quick, Jeff Lumby's been on this show. You and Lumby are good pals. Very good friends. In fact, I think Julie LaFontaine, his wife, represents Tara Sloan. I have to ask Tara this. I keep forgetting to ask, but I think she's a Fountainhead client, which is a small world. But Jeff, I used to go, I lived in Ancaster,

and Jeff worked at Y95 in Hamilton, and I would flip down the hill and go on the show with him. And just a big talent, funny guy, and now he's playing drums in a band up in Guelph area. He's doing lots of different things, but he's really taken to playing the drums. And yeah, a very sharp Saskatchewan kid who comes from a family of performers. Yes.

Yeah, he was a great joy to work with. Well, you mentioned he is multi-talented, but one of his many talents is his Don Cherry impression. So do you ever have a few pops and he breaks into that? No, he does all, you know, he can do Don Cherry because he's a bit of a right winger himself, right? Yes, he is. For sure, Jeff's whole thing is an rind. He, that's why Julie's agency is called the Fountainhead. They are big believers in self-made individuals.

And I am way different than that. I am, you know, our slogan in Canada is peace, order, and good government. But it actually, actually is peace, welfare, and good government. It got bastardized early on and nobody bothered to fix it. But we were, as Canadians, extremely good leaders in the world of welfare. And I do believe in the marginalized and the

disadvantaged. And I think, uh, grapes, uh, Jeff, you know, we'll say, oh, give it up. You know, they're just lazy. And so we go back and forth and that's why, that's why he's a good grapes. But it's fun. Yeah.

And we greatly respect each other for having thought it through, you know, like that's the thing. You have T.E. Lawrence who wrote Seven Pillars of Wisdom and he's Lawrence of Arabia. He said, ultimately, you know, being able to see the two sides will lead to madness. said, ultimately, you know, being able to see the two sides will lead to madness. So, you know, it's easy, it's more comforting to pick a side and not drive yourself insane. Now, I mentioned earlier, you're underutilized on the broadcast, in my opinion. Another

gentleman who's underutilized is Bob Cole. Now, I, he's the voice of my, you know, my very, my few and far between Maple Leaf playoff memories, but he's the voice. And I, far between Maple Leaf playoff memories, but he's the voice. And when he's doing a broadcast to me, it changes everything. You watch for the game, but what an enhanced experience when it's a Bob Cole game.

Yeah, he's unbelievable. He learned from Foster Hewitt. He has a different approach. He's not a storyteller. He is going to get you with, it's funny, like Tragically Hip, Gord Downie, the lyrics are, you know, all over the place. But I think the magic of the hip is the sound, even without the message, which is often brilliant.

So I just mentioned the wherewithal, that bar I was going to have is a song by the Tragically Hip. But Bob Cole gets you with his inflection. He has an unbelievable sense of the game, anticipation. he has an unbelievable sense of the game anticipation he is the greatest caller and that's no disrespect to Danny Gallivan and Foster Hewitt there's never been anybody called a game like Bob

because he has the voice, he has the whole package for a play-by-play it's that sense of the moment it's that delivery style people will criticize Bob Kuh Cole because he's getting on, and sometimes he'll misidentify a player. And I'm like, who gives a shit? Right, I'm with you. And ABC kept Jim McKay long after he had shakes

and little bits of seniors moments. But they understood the branding, if nothing else. In our industry, everything comes down to branding. And branding is sort of three things. It's repetition, it's consistency, but most of all, it's anchoring. Does this brand anchor you to a feeling that's good? And Bob Cole is that feeling, just as you described. He's fantastic. And I'm going to guess it's a contractual thing of Jim Hewson. This is my understanding. Like, I guess there's a Jim Hewson contractual thing where he gets certain... Oh, I imagine. And that's why we don't... Because a lot of people are like,

why can't we have Bob Cole for this? But it's usually because Jim's got a miscontract against that. Yeah, I think it's clear. Times move. And as Bob always said to me, new brooms must sweep. And we've been swept.

And I don't begrudge that. That's one thing. My attitude, it's like there was a referee, an umpire actually, a baseball umpire, was having a battle with Leo DeRocher, and Leo said, I could have your job. And he said, well, if you can have my job, I don't want the job.

And I love that line. It's like Carlos Marques, brothers. Yeah, my attitude, and I don't know about Bob's, but my attitude is, if you think someone else is better, be my guest. Very good. Now, you mentioned that, you know,

you mentioned 2 million will watch a Leafs game and 400,000 a Sens game. So I'm guessing with the playoffs, and I don't know the numbers, but I'm guessing a playoff series with the Leafs gets you this, and then if it's, I don't know, Minnesota Wild versus whatever. Oh, I know, it's terrible.

So this season, for the first time in my lifetime, there's no Canadian teams in the NHL playoffs. And I mean, what can you do? You don't control the games or whatnot, but what's your opinion on...

Well, I'm very worried, and I wrote a blog about this on the hometownhockey.com website called The Canadian Conundrum, and it just sort of lays out the three ways you build a hockey team are the draft, free agent signings, or trades. And Canadian teams are not going to get the free agent signings. You know, everybody here is dreaming of Stamkos, and maybe that'll happen. But you're not going to, as a rule, get the players to come to Canada. And you're certainly not going to get them in trades, because they have no movement, no trade contracts, and the good ones. And they don't want to come to Canada and you're certainly not going to get them in trades because they have no movement, no trade contracts at the good ones. And they don't want to come to Canada for a lot of reasons, the taxes, the weather. But most of all, Mike, they just don't want to come to Canada because

they can't get away from their work. It is too omnipresent and it's hard on the family. It's hard on you. You know, the hardest, Jean Beliveau always said, the hardest thing about being a pro is to not think about the game. You need moments to be able to get away from it in order to be good at it. It's tough to do in Canada. So the players, as a rule, aren't going to choose here. The only way you'll get them is draft them. And Edmonton's drafted a lot of them. And finally, in McDavid, they have

sort of the runner. This is terrible news. I always was hoping guys, maybe a Tavares or a Stamkos, these guys would want to come home. But it sounds like you might want to go anywhere but there. He may. But you know what?

If I were him, you know, it wouldn't be my first choice. It would be for the sake of yourself. It's just a little easier. You know, Dougie Gilmore thrived here. He had a window in his life where it was the perfect thing for him. So there are situations where it would be right for you to play in Montreal, to play in Toronto, where it would drive you to another level because it is big and challenging.

And Babcock is a good example of a guy who at that point in his career probably felt he needed it. So I'm not saying it'll never happen, but it sure as heck is not going to happen easily for Winnipeg or Ottawa. And the other thing that's scary, somebody pointed this out, is not only so fine, no Canadian teams in the playoffs, you know, probably a great deal to do with those reasons you mentioned, but also that less, apparently for the first time, less than 50% of the league is Canadian born.

Is this a scary trend as well, or is this more to like other countries improving? It's, yeah, of course it's a little bit of that. The NCAA, it's funny, as the game becomes a track meet, it is really a fast game right now. So the major junior model, which had always cultivated

a type of player who was battle-hardened, was different from the U.S. college hockey player who was a couple games on the weekend and then back in the gym and weight training and weight training and plyometrics and all the different things nutritionally

that would get you to be stronger faster. That model is actually gaining traction and producing, you know, I think close to half the NHL or NCAA collegians right now. So that's a trend you're seeing and it's a byproduct of the change in right now. So that's a trend you're seeing, and it's a byproduct of the change in the game.

So it used to be, Mike, that there's a lot of things going on. Socioeconomically, a lot of kids came from small towns and all over the country, and it was their way out. There was a reason why so many kids came from tiny little places across Canada. It was a way out of doing really tough work, whether it was lobster fishing in Murray Harbor PEI or combining in Kelvington, Saskatchewan. This was a way to have an easier, a better life. Now, you add this layer of big money. And so people go to a hockey academy, which costs money. People, you know, I always say this too about meritocracy. We say we

have a meritocracy, but the truth of the matter is lots of people pass on their university education, their money, their connections. Not everybody has that coming from mom and dad. But now in hockey, where hockey academies are producing great players, those little assets, a family that has money, are important. So it's changing things. Brian on Twitter would like to know, what was your favorite Olympics that you hosted? Yeah, that's 96 Atlanta for sure. And that was Marianne Limpert.

I always list as the greatest thing I've ever experienced broadcasting sports was Marianne's silver medal swim in the 200 IM. I just grew to like her. I saw her at Commonwealth Games in Victoria in 94. And she wore a black cap, swim cap, when everyone else had white on the Canadian team. So she had a bit of, she's an only child from Fredericton. So I felt an infinity for her,

just her story. And then she swam this out of the, out of her mind swim and she should have won the gold medal. The woman to beat her was Michelle Smith over in lane one, who was a known drug cheat. So it's terrible that Marianne's not the gold medalist of that event. So that's the greatest. And that was also Donovan Bailey. And that was the relay 4x100. And, you know, everything about those Olympics should have been a bust. It was, you know, owned by Coca-Cola. It was American, the 100th anniversary of the modern Olympics.

And it looked like it was things that I should get mad at as an ethical, you know, canary. But it wasn't. It was a great Olympics. And then Lea Pels, I remember, a 1,500-meter runner was a highlight. And the other one I would put right there is Beijing. And my mom died during the Beijing Olympics, and I had to fly home. But Eric Lamaze, I always thought was just an amazing story. Usain Bolt, Michael Phelps, the sheer grandeur of the performances.

And that's funny. Those are two Summer Olympics I'm mentioning, and I'm a hockey guy. And those are the two, I believe, Toronto almost got those two. Those are the two, I believe, so those are the two we almost got. All that's funny. Those are two summer Olympics I'm mentioning, and I'm a hockey guy. And those are the two, I believe Toronto almost got those two. Those are the two, I believe those are the two we almost got. All right. Yeah. For sure, Atlanta, right? I believe Beijing was the other one, I think. Yeah, you're probably right. I'd forgotten. But it was a great Olympics. And Beijing, culturally, was, of course, fascinating too. Justin wants me to ask you about your vast experience refereeing. So he mentions you've refereed all sorts of levels of hockey and even an NHL preseason game a few years ago.

Well, I remember refereeing in Mimico Arena with Ralph Sparks, who was a firefighter and a legendary OHA referee. That was a great treat. Just loved, again, it's because it's ethics, right? You're trying to manage a situation. You're trying to communicate through the game. And, you know, there's two ways to approach refereeing. You can do it with vinegar or you can do it with honey.

And I did it with honey. And four to five nights, I was one of the greatest psychologists alive. And then the fifth night, the guy would say, oh, go screw yourself. Just call the penalty. And you knew you didn't have it that night. And it was a great escape. It was three hours where you were completely dialed into the game and puck and people's attitudes and, oh God, it was great recreation.

And I did it for 23 years and I only quit because of the lockout the year they wiped out the whole season, 0405. Sorry, yeah, 0405. I just couldn't submit dates where I'd be available. I'd done it for 23 years at that point. And now we were moving into the two referee

system and it was going to be called everything that moves, which they did in the NHL the following season. And I hated that. So it was time. I, I, again, I, I probably had put in enough time, but I miss it. I, I, it was a great, great vocation.

Well, another Steve, that's his handle, uh, points out that you were a very good referee. He says that you communicated with players during the play and after the play, and that he always appreciated this as a coach because players knew what to expect from him. Right. Anyway, so it sounds like you were not just a ref, but a quality ref. Yeah, you're a facilitator, right?

You're there for them. I really understood that. I played the game, so I knew when blood ran hot. Just a great, you know, feeling. I was down at the OHL Cup, which is the top midget tournament here in the Toronto area. It's got teams from the United States as well, but it was played at the Mattamy Athletic Centre. And I saw the two referees. I wish it was one, but it's okay.

Two's okay. I saw the referees, you know, standing at centre ice when the national anthem was playing. And I remember what that feeling was like, you know, watching the sweat on the backs of the necks of the one hockey team at the one blue line and just the anticipation of a night in a playoff game in some rink, whether it's Streetsville or Trenton or, oh God, it was exciting. I really, I really enjoyed that. I was at a house league playoff game yesterday, George Bell Arena. Yeah. And that's where we shot our Maxwell House commercial. Is that right?

Yeah, yeah. I'm there every week. In fact, all summer I played there on Tuesday nights, too. It's a great sheet of ice. It's a great rink, yeah. It's a great rink. Yeah, there's nothing like, well, you know. Yeah, I'm saying this is house league, okay?

And just the joy of the parents, right? In the case of the house league hockey or any minor hockey, that's another fascinating aspect to it is the element of the fans and it's all parents usually and siblings. And gosh, great. And speaking of the tragically hip, I always sit at the lonely end of the rink. So I sit right behind the, because as you know, George Bell, one end you can sit right behind the goal.

And I'm the only one who sits back there and I'm all alone. And sometimes my daughter's with me or my wife, whatever. But I sit at the lonely end of the rink. and every time I'm sitting there, I can hear, you know, the Gord Downie song, Lonely End of the Rink. It's also the name of a great book by Grant Lawrence, who works for CBC Radio 3, and he's married to Jill Barber, a singer. But Grant wrote a book called Lonely End of the Rink and obviously a takeoff of Downie, but a great book about him sort of, you know, having been bullied all through school and giving up on hockey

and then getting swept up in the Vancouver Canucks run in 1994, much the way in Toronto, Wendell Clark Mania, you know, took over here and obviously Dave Bedini wrote about that. He rediscovered the Canucks and then he ended up getting into playing again and he was a goalie and it's a great book. No, fantastic. And Gord's spoken on Hockey Night in Canada about the origin, sort of about how, you know, he was a goalie, and it's a great book. No, fantastic. And Gord's spoken on Hockey Night in Canada about the origins, sort of about how he was a goalie, and his dad would sit,

and it reminds me of my late great-uncle Bruce, who would sit at that lonely end of the rink as my cousin Mark played in the OHL, and he played for Sudbury, and he played for Belleville Bulls, and my uncle would be sitting back there behind his son. I don't know if you've ever heard me make this point, because I've made it one or two times, but goaltenders in hockey who become great musicians, Gord Downie of the Tragically Hip,

Alan Doyle of Great Big Sea, Greg Keeler of Blue Rodeo, Andy Mays of the Sky Diggers, David Franci, there's Luc Doucette of White Horse. I'm missing one. But all these great Canadian lead singers were goaltenders

wow yeah there's got to be something to that it's got to be Rick C. in Oakville says I know Ron is a car guy and he used to have

a mint condition early 90s Mustang 86 it's an 86 86 does he still have it and if not what are you driving now

yeah no I still have the 86 Mustang but it's useless in winter of course I have to park it for the winter it just has five horsepower so it's all over the road in any kind of rain or snow so but i love that car i kind of liken it to my flip-flops you know when you uh first experience is skiing when you go skiing there's no greater feeling than taking ski boots off and i when the stanley cup is one and you know in the old days when i did the hockey night it was like from seven in the evening till five in the morning every night for 60 consecutive nights.

It was an incredible haul. And what a feeling to take the tea roof off my Mustang and get out into the warm sun. That was for me like going from ski boots to flip flops. That's a great analogy too. John on TorontoMic.com, he's asking, I would like to hear Ron's thoughts on concussions and where our changing understanding of head injuries will take the game. Will fighting go?

What about body checks? You know, I think fighting's gone. You know, it's almost gone as it is. And I think it will go for all the reasons, especially the pressure that's coming from society. You know, ultimately the laws

are usually dictated by society's thinking. And right now, our thinking is it's too dangerous. Medical communities chiming in with the same message. So that should end fighting. But I think the more important dialogue, because we always look at the justice system, whether it's the Gomeshi trial, or whether it's fighting in hockey, or some of these issues, we look at the judiciary and wonder, is the system right? But the system isn't systemic in the problem itself. What is systemic are things like stress and trauma. And why do people behave the way we do? As Sheldon Kennedy has explained, you know, you put people in silos of addiction or mental health or homelessness, but they're all stemming from the same forms of trauma, stress, usually early childhood related, that's where the investigation needs to be going. Not what's the

penalty and who should pay. Because anybody who comes through these, you know, severe anxieties, severe depression, severe problems with mental health, because of maybe fighting, it might not just be fighting. It might be the stress of having that job. It might have been the trauma of something in your life, a predisposition, as Gary Bettman said in those leaked emails. I mean, those are good questions. That is where your eye is on the right ball, not in the punishment. So whether or not we eliminate it,

obviously the only defense is it's a form of social policing, but for the reasons I listed, society just, we're going to pass new laws. We're going to go to the justice to shape it the way we want it. But that's not where we should be looking. We should be looking at what are the systemic factors like stress and trauma. At this point, do you even know how many Geminis or... Yes, I count't because they're always wrong and the wikipedia's are the uh okay tell me is that right oh i'm just kidding i have 10 but i don't have any of them as you know or maybe you don't know it i give them all away i don't have

any myself uh and i have uh yeah some other awards you didn't not even one kept uh one because my dad had it in his room and it's now in my home my dad died november 30th so i took the one from his room and kind of thought i'll keep that one well that's nice that's my condolences there because my dad had it in his room, and it's now in my home. Oh, yeah. My dad died November 30th, so I took the one from his room and kind of thought, I'll keep that one. Oh, that's nice. That's my condolences there. The last couple,

you mentioned your anxiety or your stress, because, you know, Dawn's got to get those last two, and you've got to make sure to time it. The good thing is, I had more than six minutes here,

so I've got last two. One is June 3rd, 2010. Okay? Does this date, now he's thinking about... Oh, that's the river. Delaware? That's the Delaware River, 2010. Okay. Does this date? Now he's thinking about- Oh, that's the river. That's the Delaware River in Philadelphia. Yeah.

So this story, which sounds like it's been scripted, but this actually happened. So tell us what happened. This was an unbelievable day. Don Cherry had to shoot his Rock'em Sock'em DVD openings and bridges. So he went down to the old Spectrum, not the new arena in Philadelphia, the old Spectrum. And we shot for about an hour and a half. I didn't.

I just sat and had coffee while poor Don was sweating it out. It was a thousand degrees in the building. So he shoots us on cameras for Tim Cherry, produces the Rock'em Sock'em DVD or Blu-ray or whatever he is now. And then we go to have lunch at the hotel back on the Delaware River in Philadelphia.

And Don's sitting across from me and we order beef dips or whatever it is. And there's a guy sitting out on the patio wearing a Ralph Lauren golf shirt. It's got a big polo horse on the left breast. And I look at that polo horse and I think, oh God, I got to do the queen's plate. That's in 11 days and I'm not even prepared. And it was like one of these sort of Damocles hanging over me this. So anyway, 10 minutes later, the wife of that gentleman comes rushing into the restaurant and Don and I are the only two in the restaurant proper. And she says, help, help. Somebody's drowning. And I don't see the guy with the polo shirt. So I thought, what the hell has happened here? So anyway, I go out onto the patio and sure enough,

it's a big drop about 13 feet down to the sidewalk. And I see that Ralph Lauren shirt has now been doffed and is lying on the wharf. And the guy had dove into the Delaware River to go after a drowning man. So I know he needs help. So I grabbed a rope off of one of those like velvet ropes you see at theaters or at the airport. And I grabbed the rope because I knew it's hard to pull a person out of the water i do a lot of boating and i knew that physically we would struggle to get this guy out of the water so i go down to the i finally make my way down to the water uh you know and it's crazy race and jumping over it looks like a scene from james bond and the guy the french he was from france the gentleman who had

taken off his ralph lorraine shirt and dove in he pulls the guy to the side of the pier and he gets out of the water and he runs hell bent for leather away because he's worried because this guy was wrapped in duct tape and rope and somebody clearly tried to kill him. So now you wonder if the person that tried to kill him is still around. And I end up holding the guy with my left hand and he's got a parka on like it's summer, but he's got a downfield jacket that's now full of water. So he weighs about 600 pounds. And I take the rope and I give it to him in his right hand. I've got his left. And then people finally come from the hotel and I pass the rope up to the top of the pier and we pull them out

of the water. And I just patted him on the back and said, better days ahead. And then the police, you know, the security from the hotel started arriving and that was that. I go back to where Don's sitting watching all this up on the patio and he had been talking about David Boland of Mimico ironically and he says well you sure know how to screw up a Boland

story but that's what I remember about doing that. You're Batman that's amazing. And you have a new puppy. Yeah, Jackson, our standard schnauzer who, well, you know, you have a, how old, two week?

Two week and one day. Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, your baby is laughing at all the barriers around the house and we have the same thing but it's for a dog.

Yeah, yeah. Those barriers, of course, are for the toddler because the nice thing about the two weeks old is they just kind of live in a bucket, you know. They're kind of very portable at that age.

But your puppies aren't so lucky. Both of us, there's a little stress involved, and it's a joyous stress. I can't tell you what a pleasure this has been. So I'm going to play off of some Lowest of the Low. Great Toronto band. Yeah, of course low great Toronto yeah of course love them yeah Steve yeah Ron Hawkins did that hit not low to low but he did a solo song that is being used for the the Maple Leaf tribute video you see at the ACC that Tim Thompson did right amazing Tim is

yeah one of the greatest at what he does ever and we need him back. Do what you got to do to get that guy doing the Hockey Night in Canada intros again, because those were the best. Total pleasure here too, Mike. Appreciate it greatly. No, thank you very much. Enjoy the beer. And you're going to be so excited this is over, you're going to leap up in celebration. Do not do that, because you will concuss.

And we don't want to have any CTE issues here. concuss and we don't want to have any CTE issues here and that brings us to the end of our 165th show you can follow me on Twitter at Toronto Mike and Ron is at Ron McLean

HTH see you all next week read Andrew Miller and wander around next week.