Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Shad: Toronto Mike'd #627

Episode Date: April 22, 2020

Mike chats with hip hop artist and broadcaster Shad about his rap career, hosting Q on CBC, Hip-Hop Evolution and more.

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I'm Mike from TorontoMike.com and joining me is rapper, broadcaster, Shad. How are you doing? How are you doing? I'm doing great. Yeah. How are you holding up? Whereabouts are we reaching you today? Whereabouts do you live in the uh in the gta yeah yeah i'm home i'm around uh bluer and lansdowne area um the realtors call it the junction triangle um yeah is that galaxy donuts still there galaxy donuts i don't think so where was that exactly i believe it was it was at lansdowne and bluer because uh in my younger years i spent a lot of time at uh dufferin and dupont oh yeah yeah up at the mall there the galleria mall which they just they're bulldozing that thing right now right yeah i drove by it like maybe a month ago and it was suddenly uh exploded to smithereens there's

like there's basically just a tv canada trust and a couple stores left yeah it's the end of an era uh yeah it's gonna be expensive condos in there now but uh how's the family is everybody everybody's healthy how are you doing with the social distancing yeah yeah we're grateful for every healthy day man um so i live here with my wife my daughter who's a year and a half half, and my brother lives with us as well. So there's four of us in here. So that's kind of good as far as company goes. It's a decent amount of people to socialize with and all that. We get out for a walk once a day. So that's okay. But really, we're just grateful that we're healthy and not too stressed by the situation. So we count ourselves among the lucky ones and just trying to figure out what we can do. As far as being present and not being present, what we can do for people. Now, creatively, is this a good time?

I'm always curious with creative minds like yourself. Is this a time where you can actually spend more time creating the art? Yeah, that's a good question. You know, for me, I feel like this isn't really a great creative time, you know. I think because I'm the kind of person that needs a little bit of space to reflect on things, you know, it's kind of got to settle in my mind into something. So yeah, right now I still feel pretty dizzied by everything that's going on. My wife's family is also from Nova Scotia and that shooter was caught like three minutes from her parents. So, you know,

it's just been an all around kind of strange and disorienting time. So for me, it doesn't feel like really the time to crystallize my thoughts into anything, really. Yeah, that was an absolute tragedy, what took place in Nova Scotia. Terrible, terrible. Yeah, terrible and still baffling. There's a pattern we've seen with these kinds of events where there's a targeted group or or it's taking place at a gathering you know um of some kind and this uh just is i mean they're all horrifying but this this kind of feels unique in a sense right absolutely now is this uh hopefully this is a good time for us to uh go backwards before

we get to current days so yeah i know some people are uncomfortable you know going back in the time machine and kind of talking about how they got where they are i'm hoping that your game yeah yeah of course of course all right because i'm going way back in fact i want to get you back to the university my oldest is going to next year. I don't even know what's happening with universities, to be honest. Like, is it going to be online, which would be great? It would save me thousands of dollars. Or is he going to end up at Laurier?

But take us back to when you're an undergrad student at Wilfrid Laurier University and talk about that 91.5 The Beat competition. And maybe I want to hear that story very badly but and also tell us at that time like if you can about any influences like any rap influences and all that i want to i want to go way back here man it gets so hard to talk about that time now because so i was an undergrad um from 2001 to 05 and it gets so hard to talk about that time now because so I was an undergrad from 2001 to 05. And it gets so hard to talk about that time now because the world has changed so much. Like this is pre Facebook, pre YouTube, you know, so it really was the old world. So like, I always feel so long winded when I talk about that time, because you have to put so much into context for people, right um so yeah I mean I was a student like your oldest is about to be uh study

business over there and uh you know at that time making music was not really possible like uh in terms of just having the equipment you needed to make music. You know, I grew up in London, Ontario, so I was freestyling and stuff in high school. And I mean, freestyling was the thing to do, but it was also the only thing you could do. Like in a city like London that has half a million people, there was probably only a couple of people that could make beats, like that actually had, you know, a sampling machine and records and the chops to make beats.

So, you know, it kind of I hate to be long winded, but I feel like you sort of got to paint that picture for people. sort of got to paint that picture for people. So what happened for me when I was at Laurier that really helped, you know, I was making music with some friends because this was the beginnings of home recordings a little bit. I had a friend with a big, nice Mac desktop computer and some software and stuff. So we were making music as a group. And then my sister entered me in this unsigned talent competition that 91.5 the beat put on and you know again this was like a huge crack at getting you know getting a chance to make music because you couldn't just do it on your laptop so the competition uh awarded 17 000 or something like that to the winners which is like a major label budget at this point.

But you had no idea you were being entered in this thing? So yeah, so what happened was my, yeah, my sister, kind of for my birthday present, she was like, look, just record. She got me into this studio, this local studio to record some demos, because you had to submit a couple of demos and a bio. And she's like, I'll do the rest. And so she mailed it in and did all the administrative stuff that I, to this day, hate doing. And she got all that done for me.

And that worked out. And I won that competition, had the means to record. But again, because of how impossible it was to get into a studio. But when I got the money and got into a studio, I didn't even know what EQ was. I didn't know what anything was, you know, in a studio environment.

So it was like a real steep learning curve and everything. But, you know, that really on top of just having the opportunity to make an album, it was, it was a confidence thing. You know, when you're when you're 20 years old and somebody besides your friends or family tells you that

you're good and put some money behind you that's uh that does a lot i'm watching this uh michael jordan documentary series i don't know if you're watching it last dance oh oh i i watched it beside my wife i had my headphones on and like every five minutes she heard me just saying this is the best yeah yeah my wife had the same she's like i could see she's i go she's going on her phone i'm like how are you not like mesmer like this is amazing to me it's just i mean next to uh hip-hop evolution which we'll get to like honestly but i the reason i brought it up is because when you see michael way back and you see him as a rookie on the bulls for example and he has that swagger like for a young man i

think he was like i don't know 22 years old or something he has already that maturity and that that confidence and that swagger of a of a of a leader like at a very young age and hearing you talk about you know the the the like for example i'll never understand for example like there's some uh and hopefully you tell us about you know uh the inspiration between for that track but like these are some heavy themes that you're tackling at a very young age and like you mentioned you were very green yeah yeah so that song that particular song is about the genocide in Rwanda, 1994. And the genesis for that song was really hearing my mom perform this poem at this 10-year memorial event for the genocide.

So that was right around the time I was making that album. She wrote this incredible poem. It's like this metaphor for anger and hatred and forgiveness. And I was like, wow, it's amazing. And that was right around the time I had the opportunity to make this album. And my heroes in music were people like Lauryn Hill, Common, Outkast. You know, those are my heroes, people that had something to say and people that told real stories about their lives, you know, and who they were and

where they came from. So that's where I got the idea to make a song using my mom's poem. Really, that's the center of the song about those events and about, you know, even deeper than that, just about, you know, the themes she explores in the poem, you know, very human things about forgiveness. So yeah, man, I was just trying to be like my heroes and have something to say. So that album, that first one,

it's called When This Is Over. You're able to make that on the 17,000 or so that you won from 91.5 The Beat. Is that right? That's right. Oh,5 the beat is that right that's right oh yeah cool now that's amazing so that album comes out and we talked about you know the themes rwanda and genocide and etc and you talked about some of the like the influences like common people who are saying something of substance were there any canadian rappers at that time that would be like that would give you an indication that hey yeah i'm from I'm from London but uh I I can do this too like was there anybody you looked up to

in Canada for sure because you remember that era as well where um you know much music was how we heard music a little bit on the radio as well but hip-hop I mean in london not not a lot on the radio um so man maestro like i looked up to him obviously he's the godfather of everything um you know as a as an mc he was just like a powerhouse and then he just always i just remember from being a kid every album he came out with was like something cool and different you know from backbone to conducting things uh you know nothing at all starts without the retson it was just like it was always something different and cool with him and then the dream warriors were like that but to an even greater extent i mean they were just on their own wave it was amazing

and now the legacy begins uh dj ron nelson had that recorded in his home studio amazing yeah amazing like yeah all that history man like i was just watching it on on tv and later getting to know maestro and some of these guys and them telling me the stories has just been one of the highlights of my career but those are definitely influences um danny o's uh have you interviewed him last week last week uh you know he was one of the first guys i heard from canada just be like a monster mc just like lyrically again in that time that i was coming up in hip hop you know the lyrical thing was getting really sophisticated right from everyone from your black thoughts and your m&ms and jay-z's and andre 3000s in america to up here

you know danny o was probably the the prince of uh you know the the super lyrical thing so i admired him greatly um eternia was starting to pop up at that time. And then, of course, you had Chaos right around when I was entering university and getting interested in music. Chaos was just doing his thing on a level. I still don't think we fully... I think we take him for granted to be honest because he just kind of came out and he was able to do this thing where you mix hip-hop with any genre of music and he did it so well that we don't fully appreciate how many people try and fail at that

like every second of every day i'd echo that you're bang on i i think chaos is grossly under appreciated and undervalued yes yeah a hundred percent man like people try and fail at what he did like constantly there's probably five people on the planet that could pull off what he uh does you know um cardi i came to appreciate uh well i i was a fan but once i started in music and actually played some shows with him and saw that he is like maybe a top five performer in hip hop anywhere you don't want to be on a stick i hate performing with cardi i hate performing at shows with cardi he's the best like by far he's probably saying the same thing about you right now so we we have a good mutual appreciation but uh you know like he's such a

versatile artist and then when he steps on a stage like it's it's destruction man you don't want to play a show with that guy okay so shad you get you make an album because you win a contest your sister enters you in that you had no idea you were being entered into and then you get signed by black box recording so uh before i'm going to play a cut from the old prince in a moment but uh how did you get the uh the record deal and like that's a big deal right i don't know i'm not a musician but it sounds like that's uh that's a big deal back then oh yeah uh big time because mean, to this day, when you love making stuff, your main concern is just I just want the chance to make something, you know, and and actually have it be heard. And these guys, Black Box Recordings, they're hungry, kind of new ish label based in Mississauga. And they were just ready to go.

You know, they they saw me perform. I was doing my thing and just trying to be heard as much as possible. And I think they saw how hungry I was and I saw how hungry they were. And we were like, yeah, let's go. I'm going to play a little bit of the old prince still lives at home, and then we're going to talk a little more about this. Yeah. One, two, three.

Yo, I live at home still. Not paying phone bills. Hydro will rent and my mom makes most meals. So it's so ill. I don't need no skrill. Only cash for gas when I borrow my folks' wheels. But you can't drive. Whatever, I van dive.

Get a good vibe. Man, who I look like, that Lance guy? I ain't pushing no banana seeds. Looking like some 80s roll kid on your grandma's street. You can go ahead, call me Lazy Lace. I just retired real young, y'all. Call me Jay-Z. Or maybe I just hate these crappy jobs.

Call me crazy. But I refuse to work them, man. It's miserable. Can't do it unless it's due to circumstance. And I need the cash to feed my astronomical appetite. But for the time being, y'all, I sacrifice sacrifice and have a life mine is a couple of luxuries is cutting my budget schemes and getting some stuff for free like why's the brother need a dentist it's expensive and my guns to bleed they do every time when he scrubs them clean and every year they try to bump the feet

muscle problems recommend braces that's another g well thanks a lot doc but listen i can brush my teeth all on my own So you ain't gonna hustle me So that kid's carrying a dental plan Now here's a potential scam Getting my toes crushed by your rental van You're so talented, man Seriously, I can't believe this song's like 13 years old Because it still sounds like really fresh in the headphones

Thank you Alright, so that song again That's from The Old Prince That's your second album But the first one with Black Box recording This That's from The Old Prince. That's your second album, but the first one of Black Box recording. The song's called The Old Prince Still Lives at Home. And it gets like it gets accolades, right? Like I see that it got it's one of your many, but your first Polaris Music Prize nomination. Yeah. So that's that is the album to mind, that really allowed me to establish a career. You know, working with, again, working with Black Box to just not just only make the album, but also start to tour and promote it.

I had my first tour opening for Classified, first cross-country tour. And yeah, Polaris Music Prize nomination, that organization has helped me a lot for sure. Um, and then that video, uh, we did this whole, uh, fresh Prince, um, intro kind of spinoff thing. And that was like a, really, it was actually one of the early viral music videos, um, on YouTube, because again, this is early days of youtube so yeah all of that kind of helped me uh establish a fan base across the country and back when much

music played videos back in the good old days uh you got a much music video award nomination a couple of them out of that that album that's right yeah very cool now you know daniel was on last week i just realized this is the third week in a row where i had a great canadian rapper on the program because two weeks ago uh kish was on the show uh and kish yes okay in fact i got daniel on because kish talked about his collaboration with maestro and daniel and i'm like i've had maestro on you know he's been over a few times and i'm like i I got to get Daniel on the show. But I guess my question is something Kish told me.

So Kish told me that when he got his first payment for his first two albums, which includes Order from Chaos, which had a big much music hit, you know, I Rhymed the World in 80 Days. He said it was like 191 bucks, he told me. And I know he did tell me he signed the worst deal in the historymed the world in 80 days uh he said it was like 191 bucks he told me and i know he did he did tell me he signed the worst deal in the history of the world so that's on him but i i'm just curious because you start to have some success here and uh is it is it uh financially

rewarding or is that always a struggle in this country when it comes to art. Yeah. Well, I came into it when the whole making music from recordings as an artist was basically, you know, dead or dying. So I never anticipated that that would be something I would make money from. For me, it's always been the live thing. something I would make money from. For me, it's always been the live thing. So yeah, I'd say around the old Prince is when, you know, financially from a career standpoint, things started to stabilize for me, but that was because of live shows, you know, all,

all this the much music and all that Polaris, all that stuff helped me get a fan base that I could perform for and make a living because Napster hit, I think, in 99 and that quickly accelerated revenues from recording music kind of disappearing. So yeah, I guess the fortunate thing for me in my era was I never even thought about that as a way that I might, like, I was never planning for that. Right. Kind of sitting and going, okay, well, how come I'm not getting these royalties? So you can't get blindsided, right? Because you're.

I wasn't. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And, and, and yeah. And then just the numbers being different, right? Like Kish having a hit back then, that probably meant, you know, it's amazing to hear about people talk now, like when we interview people for Hip Hop Evolution and them saying,

oh yeah, the album kind of flopped. It only sold like 500,000. It's like 500,000 people bought it? It's true. Like now that's insane. That's a world con. That's Adele, you know you know right no yeah you're right that's taylor swift territory right exactly so so and so naturally you would assume that that

would bring in something you know it would now if someone sold 500 that an artist would make money from that but back then uh you know that that wasn't necessarily doing much so yeah i guess to answer your question i've always thought about the live performances it's like my main revenue stream and the new way we listen to music well lots of people is streaming right like and and i've been told by a million artists in this country that uh the the numbers don't add up it's it's it's it's rather unfair to an artist because I hear stories about a check arriving for like $3.18 or something.

Is there any money at all for a popular Canadian artist in streaming royalties? I think there are, but you do have to have a lot of streams. So part of that depends on the kind of music you make and the playlists you land on. My bigger concern with streaming, because again, I came into this not expecting to make money from recording music. My biggest issue with streaming is the fact that there's YouTube, there's Spotify, you have you have apple music title to a much lesser extent

like just the consolidation the fact that you have like three people three companies responsible for the distribution of all music that is very troubling to me that's the troubling thing less than the the royalties is like what that means for culture like that's bad i'm pretty sure the people at the streaming services will say oh yeah it's not good like the level of monopoly in this industry because they're the gatekeepers right they're the gatekeepers and that means they they're sort of like well you know sort of the way Google controls the internet, sort of, because everybody goes through their portal. Exactly.

And that is the, I mean, that to me is super, super troubling. It's troubling for just like more cultural reasons than economic reasons. Like, it's just not a healthy culture of music when it's so dominated by you know really just a handful of companies and that's like max a handful so shad if the if the revenue stream for an of course you're you're mold you're diversified now we're going to get into some of the cool stuff you're doing with broadcasting and stuff but i mean if you're a an artist who produces music and your primary revenue stream is live performances, what happens when there's a pandemic?

What happens? Nothing. That's kind of shut down. Bandcamp has tried to do some things to support artists with direct downloads. Our whole industry is shut down i'll say this though actually the first people affected are not artists they're they're the venues they're the concert promoters um ticketing companies my heart actually goes out to them first because

they're hard hit right away and that's already already a tough business, man. If you run a small club like the kind of places I've played my whole career, you know, the margins are already tight and everything. And so my heart goes out to those people. people and then yeah if you're an artist and mainly you make money from going out on the road you can do some instagram live stuff the government has come through with certain programs through canada council and city of toronto um i think cbc music is still active so there's some ways to pick up a little bit of cash here and there plus the cerb but um really our industry is shut down and it will be the last to come back because you can't have big events for a while you could argue that it can't come back till there's a vaccine i think that's realistic i'd be pleasantly surprised if that wasn't the case but realistically probably won't come back you probably can't have more than 100 people until there's a vaccine man that's heartbreaking

but i mean like you know we're all in this together it's sort of heartbreaking and then somebody will point out well how about the you know i was at a hospital this morning okay so i was chatting with you know and it and now i'm like on a first name basis because i keep going in because i broke my wrist and then uh you realize okay every day they're there doing like we're all i'm afraid to go to the, but they're there in a hospital every single day talking to patients. And then you're right, artists, front line, there's so many people hurting right now. It's people that are risking their lives to try to help. There's people that are already in super precarious positions physically or financially. You've got to put it all into perspective.

Yes, our industry is shut down and we'll be the last to get back up, but most of us are young and we will be alive. most of us are young and we will be alive. And so, yeah. Right. And wisely, we'll get to this in a moment. I have a couple more jams I want to play, but wisely you have, I would say, diversified your portfolio.

Yeah. Shad is not just a hip hop artist. He is much, much more, but we'll get to that. Okay. So the third album gets another Polaris Music Prize nominee. I think you're, how many are you at now? Four? Four. That's right.

That's a record, I think. That's pretty good. This award hasn't been around that long to get four. It's pretty amazing here. Thank you. But let me play a cut here from this album that I, my buddy, I got to give a shout out to my late great buddy Mike Kick because uh he worked at HMV so I know this doesn't pad your wallet at all but he used to get me CDs okay

because he worked at HMV and he early on like uh with the old prince he was talking to me about you because he knew I loved hip-hop and I remember when this single came out and he this album came out this was the cut I really I mean there are a lot of great cuts in this album, but I'm going to play one that I still like and I'm going to play it now here. I get it. Thank you. Cap'n Black, Cade, making job applications. I hate the catchphrase, Canadian rap sensation. Shag K don't have change, big as the Appalachians. But since the label put me out like ashtrays to smoke cats, I have gained some accolades and admiration and grown since then. Though that second album there was so old school, folks called it old Princeton.

I'm still penny pitching, though it's so fine. My bill for a whole still is pigskin when it's billboard time. Now, that being said, it's still 09, and I still got a line of credit. No, amazing. Okay, so the album is T-S-O-L, but I love this little fact. Great jam, by the way. I mean, the whole album's great, but I got to say, I love this fact that you beat out Drake, right,

for the Juno Award for Best Rap Album that year. That's right. That is a historical fact. No, it's in the record books. I saw it, black and white. They can't take that away from you, man. Exactly. Exactly.

I'm going to quote you from back then, so you don't have to repeat yourself, but this is, I guess, after you beat Drake. This is the 2011 Junior Awards. You said, I did not think for a second that I would win. Not for one second. He's massive.

He's massive in the States. He's massive in Canada. So what does it say though? Uh, because you know, that whole massive in the States, I mean, we talked about the artists, you know, I'm sure his streaming royalty is okay. Right. Cause he's, he's massive in the States. And I've had, usually I have this chat with people in all the CanCon alt rock bands that I adore adore and they talk about trying to break it in the states because the market is so large right california is larger than canada uh was it important to you at all personally to crack the u.s market so again going back to when i started, you know, that was not, um, when going back to when I started and how I started, that wasn't super realistic. You know, I, I came in at a time where, um, well, the sort of career

path I was envisioning for myself, um, was this independent route that was becoming a possibility, you know, as the means to recording yourself was becoming a little bit more democratized. And then you had things like MySpace and, you know, slowly YouTube started to come about, like you had these ways of also sharing your music where you could kind of circumvent the industry to some extent and go straight to people. there's also this growing audience of um of people that are really interested in independent music you know you said you're a fan of of alt rock and what was going on it's like if you were a music fan you suddenly could

discover through the internet this whole group of of artists that weren't part of that big machine you know right you didn't rely on uh you didn't rely on 102.1 The Edge to introduce you to new music. Yeah, it was very exciting for music fans in that sense as well, right? And so I guess what I'm getting at is there was this path that was opening up and it was for independent artists

and it involved a lot of touring, kind of grassroots and and you booked some of your own stuff especially to start um but then uh yeah now with that path though it was hard to cross the border I mean it was hard to get your music you know out in a strategic way across the border and get a sense of what was actually happening on the ground and get the visa and all that stuff. So, you know, my, my thing was, I'm going to hit the ground where I can, how I can. And that meant right here in Canada. And I played a lot in my hometown to start. I played a lot in, in Guelph, in Toronto, anywhere, Ottawa, anywhere that would bring me in and I could win over, you know, one, two, three, four people at a time. And so that's how I started my career. So cracking into the States early wasn't possible,

wasn't realistic for me. And then what ends up happening, a lot of Canadian artists that started in that era, what ends up happening is lot of canadian artists that start in that era what ends up happening is like well then when you can go to the states it's like it's a bit of a drag right because you're playing these fun shows in canada where you you know you really work hard and and establish this real beautiful connection with people and you're playing these fun shows and it's like right do i really want to do uh you know 50 dates you know moving through kansas city and florida and all these places playing for you know 12 people or or not or just just that uh stress of not knowing who's going to be there if anyone's going to be there too so um drake really changed that you know much to his credit he really changed

the possibilities people that started after him and i really had a sense of oh wow there's a whole other way to do this and you can kind of launch your career in canada and states at the same time um yeah i used to spend a lot of time in germany and uh i still remember what this young guy he loved hip-hop uh he thought he loved u.s hip hip hop. He thought he loved US hip hop. So he thought he loved American hip hop and he was dropping some Drake rhymes. And I just said to him, like in passing, I said, you know, we're from the same town. Okay. You know, he's from Toronto, like I am. And this guy could have sworn, you know, every dollar he had or whatever euro he had that uh drake was american so it's it's still amazing to me like when we go to film for hip-hop evolution we go to new york or houston they play more drake than like than tron plays drake on the radio and that's even today like after well after you know drake's won over everybody here. He's still, they play songs in New York, Drake songs I've never heard.

They play them on the radio. It's amazing. He's a monster. He's a monster. But I, in fact, now I really want to get to hip hop evolution. So what I'm going to do here is I'm going to let everyone know, of course, your fourth album, Flying Colors, got Oh Ho Hum, like another polaris music prize nomination and another juno award for rap recording uh of the

year nomination in 2014 so okay you did that i have to ask about one of your more uh nationally famous uh jobs if you will so yeah you're famously uh the man who took over for uh gian gomeshi on q that's right so a couple of questions one is yeah uh how did you get the gig on q yeah so you know that's a it's funny because i i started five years ago i on monday i realized it was five years ago to the day that I started that. And I messaged one of the producers that I worked with there and I said, we thought those were weird days. You know, like, man, so crazy to think about. But yeah, I mean, so we all know, of course, what happened with Gian, right?

He was hosting that show very famously and, and doing his thing. And, and then he was not, I was living in Vancouver at the time and yeah, just doing my thing with music. But at the same time, now this was just like within myself, I wasn't actively pursuing other opportunities, but within myself after I I made flying colors, I did have the sense of like, I feel very happy with what I've made.

And I feel like I've been able to say a lot. I feel really good about that. And I'm very open to, I don't know, other things. I'm open to- Sure, like spreading your wings, right? You can, you know? Yeah, it's sure like spreading your wings right you can you know yeah this is like this feeling that I had you know um like yeah I wonder what else is out there and I wonder uh yeah anyhow so uh I'm I'm like everybody else in the country just kind of watching the situation from Vancouver so from afar you know um and I think there was, my guess is that there were

people that they kind of had tapped to take over that didn't quite work out because this situation of finding a new host had dragged on right into, into suddenly November ish. And that's when I got an email asking if I'd be interested in coming in to guest host for a week. So again, with that kind of openness of like, yeah, I'm cool with, let's see, you know, what, let me try things. Let me explore. So I said, I said yes, and did a week over there. And, and then quickly that kind of escalated i started having conversations with management about okay well theoretically if you were to be involved like when you know could you start i can't remember exactly when i did my week uh it might have been late 2014 early

2015 anyways were you one of several who got this like we'll call them tryouts or whatever yeah i wasn't even sure how to think about them you know like for me i was really thinking about it like well this will be a fun experience you know uh but you know of course they were essentially they were they were seeing who might be able to do the job right so uh to my surprise things were kind of escalating you know and uh there were follow-up conversations and stuff and then they invited me to to take over and uh again just with the kind of posture that i had at the time i was like okay sure like let's, let's go on this adventure. Let me try something new. Uh, it feels purposeful, obviously to try and help this situation, uh, help this show and this organization that mean a lot to people. Um, so I said, okay, let's, let's, let's go. Let's give this a shot.

Did you enjoy your time as host of Q? I actually, I actually really did. And I think that's sort of surprising for, for people to hear, uh, cause I was fired pretty quickly, but I actually, I actually had, I had quite a good time, man. I love people. I love talking to people. It's one of the most, you know, fun jobs you can have really, if you like people. And I really loved the people that I worked with. I had a really great time with them. But it is highly produced, right? You're not really free to improvise and go free flow.

What I mean by that is that some... Well, like this show, for example. Not that I'm comparing myself to Q in any regard, but I make up the rules around here. in any regard but uh i i make up the rules around here but shad you can't make up the rules on q there's a whole infrastructure in place and you got times and things you have to stick to it's uh oh yeah yeah oh yeah you know you you have you have a clock uh that you know like it's you and i talking and you're watching the clock and and making sure that it fits into the the time slot that's available and then also there's um you know this this kind of huge and

vague audience that you're making the show for right so you're thinking let's say you're talking to somebody I don't know who Daniel or something like that you can't go anywhere you want in that conversation because you have to make that conversation um you know coherent to an audience that's uh big and also vague right what you're saying if i but you're absolutely right you can't put on your hip-hop head hat and go deep because you're broadcasting to many people you have to assume you're broadcasting to someone who's not a hip-hop head exactly exactly so it is uh yeah it is it's challenging in a lot of ways uh but you know that's part that's part of the fun of it but um but yeah it's definitely not like my experience for example up to that point with music where it was like i drive the whole thing i make the you know all the creative decisions and and and the audience is people that i've looked at in the eye from a

stage you know from a lot for a long time i know who they are and i know you know what they might be interested in hearing from me it's very different situation from that but and surely there were guests you had on q because q q attracts some top-notch talent and there were guests you had on Q because Q attracts some top-notch talent and there were surely guests where you wanted to explore subject matter that was off script if you will or not appropriate for Q or whatever uh do any just out of curiosity are there any names in your head where you said I can't believe I was talking to whatever whoever and I couldn't go deep into this like is there anything like that that uh oh yeah i mean so many right because and q is considered quite long form for for what it is and it's still and and now in the podcast world i mean it's like it's it's basically quick hits you know and when you're sitting down

with these people it does feel like that sometimes you're sitting with um i guess the first to come to mind are like uh chance a rapper uh tanahisi coats um aaron sorkin and i'm a fan of his movies you know like 15 20 minutes sounds like a long time but you know once you have to talk about the latest project that they're working on right and you know and get in a couple good anecdotes, it leaves you with basically two or three potential opportunities to follow up on something that you personally find interesting or even that you think the audience will find interesting. It just doesn't leave a ton of time and room for that. So have you considered, uh, like a shad podcast where you talk to somebody, you know,

maybe you talk to an Aaron Sorkin and you go 90 minutes and you go into all those areas, you know, as a fan people, the fans would be fascinated with anything. Have you ever considered that? Thought about it. Um, I've thought about it, Mike've thought about it mike but um these opportunities that i've had like q and like hip-hop evolution they've both been things that have kind of come to me and i felt like okay well i'm interested and also this is an opportunity to help a project that I believe in. Starting my own is a whole other thing. You know, I definitely have that energy for music.

I have that passion. You know what it's like when it's yours. You know, there's the creative freedom, which is really great. But then there's also all of the responsibility and you have to have enough passion. And so I'm not positive yet that I have that. You know, those two were opportunities that, you know, they came to me and ultimately, I mean, publicly kind of rest on my shoulders, but ultimately don't really. You're a hired gun. You're a hired gun.

Yeah. You know, like creatively, ultimately, it doesn't rest on my shoulders. And that's a very different thing. I know that experience from music where like this album, no one else is going to make it. And like your podcast, no one else is going to make it. So I'm not sure I have the passion it takes to do that. Because I think you're the type, you're going to go big or go home, right? You're either all in. There's no half-assed way of a Shad podcast happening. No, no, no. I mean, that's why I got into music.

It was just like, I want to do something with my full energy. And with Q and Hip Hop Evolution, I definitely gave those my full energy, but for the role that I served within the bigger. Right, you had to serve masters. Yeah, exactly.

There's other people that are ultimately responsible for making the thing. And it takes a different level of passion to be that guy. Okay, so speaking of the masters, did CBC, in your opinion, did CBC give you enough time to find your voice and rhythm as host of Q or did they pull the plug too soon?

You know, it's a tough question because ultimately it's their decision. You know, my view is that, my view is that we would have found our show, you know, if we had more time, you know, it's not rocket science, really. It's, it's, it's talking to people about art and culture. You know, I, that's not terribly difficult. I think we would have found it. I think we were on our way and, and have found it. But also you can go in a different direction. I think the show is great with Tom and I love Tom. And so I think that's a choice that works too.

So really, I think that's kind of my view of it is either way would work. It's a show about art and culture. It's not rocket science. And also, it's not heart surgery. It's not of the greatest consequence to people's lives. So yeah, I think either way is fine. ways is fine. Did you see it coming? I don't know. Did they probably call you in a room? I don't know how that works at CBC. I imagine there's somebody from HR there and somebody you report to or something and they

possibly tell you, we're sorry to tell you whatever, and then they pass you a folder maybe? I don't know. But did you see it coming? Yeah. I mean, I saw it as a possibility. I saw it as a possibility from the beginning really you know this was this was a bit of an experiment i had no experience posting a radio show let alone a live broadcast and there were a lot of eyeballs i would say

eyeballs but probably more ears but you're it was a as and again if if no one knows the story of gian gomeshi then they probably aren't listening to toronto mic i'll put it that way so it was a like a massive national story and then the successor to gian on that show was getting a lot of attention like there's a there's a like tom power who i think does a great job too, but Tom Power did not have the spotlight on him the way Shad did. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that I saw it as a possibility from the very beginning, you know, like this, it was an experiment, you know, I think that they were taking a chance with me to see, okay, well,

this might be something different. Someone who actually doesn't have a background in, in broadcasting, but, but does have a wide range of experiences with creating and also just with life and culture. So from the beginning, I felt like it was a possibility, you know, very strong possibility that this might not work out. And I think as time went on and I had conversations with management about, oh, there's concerns about the numbers and there's concerns about how people are enjoying me as a host. I felt like, okay, well, my time might not be long here, but I just enjoyed it. I still

enjoyed it. I enjoyed it right up until the end. I did, I think, one or two episodes after they announced that I was fired. And yeah, I enjoyed it right to the end. album you put out, which is kind of fascinating to me. I got to ask you about Tony Braxton and because we're audio, I need to spell Tony. It's T-O-N-Y. Here's a taste of Tony Braxton want a distraction. There was an aching in my heart and mind. There was an answer I'd been trying to find. I guess the core of the question I was asking, is there anything lasting?

So, Shad, this is not rap. I just want you to know this is uh this is uh like yes an alter ego a suit like who who's tony braxton maybe tell the people if they don't know who is tony braxton tony with a y braxton yeah tony tony with a y i i loved uh we my friend and i came up with that name because we like the idea of um well i just find it really funny to think of people have the same names as famous people. Just what that means for your life. Right. Like if you're a guy named Tony Braxton, your whole life becomes like a joke.

I was going to say Albert Brooks is the best example because Albert Brooks was born and raised Albert Einstein. Oh, you know, so he had to make changes before he, you know, yeah, but you're right. Imagine, because especially if you had it first, obviously, usually there's a local radio guy named Greg Brady and he kept the name Greg Brady. He was born Greg Brady. But I always, you know, all I think about when I hear Greg Brady is I think of the Brady Bunch. Exactly.

Yeah. And I love that idea, idea too of like your life is normal up into a certain point and then the other person who's famous uh kind of takes over your identity or infamous yeah so i i just kind of like love that idea there's something kind of funny and and sad about that but um yeah so that album again so after flying colors it was just this feeling of well what else can i try what else can i you know do and explore and uh and so it was around 2014 i started working on that album with my best friend i grew up with and uh and and i wanted to try something totally different you know a lot of rappers do like the

r&b thing and i was like no let's go even further like let's let's make um let's make like soft rock pop rock like something completely different like like loggins and messina like what are we talking here or it's like logg and Messina, but it's even like less cool. That is like kind of cool. This is like less cool. But that only became cool very recently. I just want to point out, it wasn't cool for a long time. And then suddenly it's like, oh, that yacht rock is cool.

But where did that come from? But please. Yeah. Yeah. No, this is like even less cool than that. Like I was drawing inspiration from songs, the deepest songs in my memory, you know, stuff I might have heard on the radio when I was like eight.

That, you know, not stuff that went to number one, but stuff that went to like number 17. Sure. You know? So that's what that was. That was also part of that time of just taking on new challenges and trying different things, you know? Do you remember when Garth Brooks released an album as Chris Gaines?

Do you remember this? I remember that. I remember being confused by that. I think people were confused by my album too. But I remember being confused by that. It's good to confused by my album too, but I remember being confused by that. It's good to keep people on their toes because it does confuse people, but it kind of keeps them on their toes.

It's good. All right. Shad, if we weren't in a pandemic right now, you would actually be sitting, I'm pointing to the chair you'd be sitting in right now. I'm not too far away from you where you are in Lansdowne and Bloor. And I would be giving you,

and I'm teasing you because at some point when this pandemic is over, maybe we can actually have this exchange, but I would be giving you a six pack of fresh craft beer from Great Lakes brewery. So I'd be giving you fresh beer and more. I feel like I'm doing an infomercial, but, uh, I'd also be giving you a frozen lasagna, a delicious, authentic Italian lasagna from Palma Pasta. So you'd have beer, you'd have delicious Italian food. I'm going to show you what else I'd be giving you a Toronto Mike sticker from sticker

you.com sticker you.com. Anybody, you could upload your, uh, your shad logo there and you could get yourself decals and temporary tattoos and everything. And I would be encouraging you to text Toronto Mike to 59559 to get the URL for the Zoom. Well, if the pandemic's over, it might not be Zoom,

but right now it's Zoom and it's a virtual open house that they're doing Saturdays at noon. I'm actually hosting this Saturday, so you can come on and throw tomatoes at me. But I would also be encouraging you, and you're at Lansdowne and Bloor, you could do this right now.

You could go to garbageday.com slash Toronto Mike, and you could sign up for the, there's basically weekly information on your waste and recycling collection, and it lets you know if the schedule changes, maybe due to COVID it changes, it tells you, weekly information on your waste and recycling collection. And it lets you know if the schedule changes, maybe due to COVID it changes, it tells you, or when they pick up the Christmas tree,

when does the yard waste get picked up. You don't have to worry about missing a collection or figuring out what goes to the curb. So go to GarbageDay.com slash Toronto Mike and do that right now. I love, with all my heart, and I've tweeted about this many times, I absolutely adore Hip Hop Evolution. Thank you.

It's right up there with the Michael Jordan documentary we started talking about. And I don't know if you've seen Hillary yet. The Hillary is very good on Netflix. I just finished it last night. Great. It's great too but hip-hop evolution and when i see new episodes dropping like as i was like i make i dive in immediately i love it how did you get the gig on hip-hop evolution and what can you tell us about

it and then i want to know when when is the toronto hip-hop episode uh we need, there should be a Toronto hip hop episode. I'm still waiting for it. Totally. So that, so that started also in that same time. I think we started filming 2013, actually. So the idea was floated to me by Darby Wheeler and Rodrigo Bascunan. I think people should, your listeners think your listeners should be proud. This is a Toronto-made series by Banger Films,

which is right near us here in Junction area. They made Metal Evolution, Headbanger's Journey, that doc series, kind of considered the definitive metal series. And they wanted to make a hip-hop one, so they recruited Darby Wheeler, who had a long history at Much Music and The Strombo Show, and Rodrigo Bascunan, who was one of the creators and editors of Pound Magazine that you're probably familiar

with. Younger listeners might not be familiar with, but also should be proud to know that Toronto produced one of the great hip-hop magazines in history, in Pound Magazine. So those two invited me and told me about the project, which at the time, well, went through many different plans, but we were only planning on making the first season. So this was going to be a series about the origins of hip-. Right. A documentary about the origins of hip hop. They pitched that to me. And on the strength of those two people, because I knew their work, I said yes. And Banger Films as well, because I knew that their series was great.

So on the strength of that, I said yes. And so we actually started filming um before q a little bit before q uh the timeline is a little funny because it came out in 2016 the first season right i may be giving you too much information no no you can never give me too much information about this uh so yeah so we we started filming, we got a green light from HBO Canada and we started filming in 2013. And, uh, and the first season was done in 2016, came out on HBO Canada and was later licensed to Netflix worldwide.

And, um, and then from there we got the opportunity to make more seasons. So we've made now four seasons of the show. And I'm super proud of what we've been able to do, really, for the culture, because this document doesn't exist. There's a lot of great books about the history of hip-hop, and there's now more and more documentaries about specific artists or scenes but hip hop evolution we've really lucked out in being able to provide this overview of the culture uh well the music specifically and how it's how it started and how it's evolved and so i'm i'm super super proud to have been a part of it and darby and rodrigo are incredible the whole team is is is really really strong and uh so to your question about toronto

hip-hop episode i mean we have no plans right now to make more obviously but uh toronto's due for an episode you know oh my god yeah like i mean there's a scene here man you got a like nice book you can start with mishy me getting the first us deal beating the new york rappers in the uh at the concert hall and uh you know dj run you had a whole thing happening there you know rumble mc got maestro in the mix you got the whole thing dream warriors or whatever but then you got the nice bookends because it closes with you know the, the biggest hip hop star on the planet. Absolutely. And what I think people would be surprised to learn maybe and proud to learn is that hip hop in Toronto has a longer history than hip hop in Atlanta, than hip hop in New Orleans, than hip hop in a lot of places. So the pioneering DJ in hip hop is Kool Herc, who's from Jamaica and,

and Jamaican immigration, you know, people landed in New York, Toronto, or the UK. So this musical tradition out of Jamaica with the sound systems, which is a lot of the style and aesthetic of hip hop kind of comes from that, you know, that landed here too. So people were having the block parties like Kool Herc was throwing here at roughly the same time, you know, we're making hip hop in the late seventies, early eighties.

You know, Toronto has a long, deep history. You brought up Mishimi. Yeah. You know, look, it goes back, man. We have roots in this thing. uh you know toronto has a long deep history you brought up mishimi yeah i stroke you know look it goes back man we have roots in this thing and um and then yeah drake is the perfect bookend i mean you you'd have to dedicate at least a third of the episode to to drink okay who do i have to talk to to make this happen because uh and again we kind of answered this question, but I'm going to ask it again, because on Twitter, Mike Bagshaw wanted to know how many more seasons of Evolution you'll do.

So did I hear you say, is it just pause due to pandemic, or can we assume there will be more episodes when this thing, when we have a vaccine and we can get back to normalcy? No, there's no plans right now. I think that the writers of the show have a have some ideas in case we get a green light from netflix to make more but there's also the issue of

well for it to be historical you kind of need some space as well so season four ends around oh six oh seven let's say and um so you also don't want to be documenting too close now. Because even Drake, you know, he's still on his run. You know, I don't know how much you want to. I mean, we could talk about everything he's done so far, but you don't also want to say too much. But I would argue there's a great episode, even if you just maybe you leave the drake at 2010 for example okay like

even if you just up to there with the you know you dropped a bunch of the names but uh anyway if if they aren't going to do it here i'm you said i could you're a hired gun right i'm going to hire you and we're going to do it yeah it needs to be done it needs to be done i think that uh our history here hasn't been like i mean i think it think it's been told in many ways and it's been told well, but to just have it under one umbrella for people, I think that's the gift of hip hop evolution is people have this one resource where they can go and get at least a general overview and then dig into more specific stories from there and toronto deserves that toronto hip-hop has deep deep roots and and now also many great success stories and you're a great host of that uh show and i think it's because you have the the credibility because you can back it up you have the flow right you're not just a guy hosting survivor or whatever you know well i think i think that's it that's the um that's the like uh narrative device that they use is, yeah, here is a guy.

He does this, and he's also just a curious person. And being my age also, there's a lot of hip-hop history that I've lived and a lot of hip-hop history that I haven't lived. So you can see me on the show learning, and I think that that helps move the show forward too. I'm learning along with viewers at the same rate for especially a lot of the earlier stuff that I wasn't around for. For sure. Okay, last jam of the episode here. We'll see you next time. This is The Fool Part 1. Get it? Got it? Good. And this is from a short story about a war. Which, yawn, I'm going to boring myself. You got a 2019 Polaris Music Prize nomination.

That's your fourth. And that is official. I see it now in the record book. That is the most of any artist. This is your most recent album. Are you working on a new one or is everything paused as well? You mentioned off the top it's not a particularly creative time for you with everything

going on. Luckily, I was done recording for a new album right before this hit. Right now, I'm working was done recording for a new album right before this hit. So right now I'm working on a lot of editing and kind of getting it ready to mix and be finished up. So, yeah, there's a new album on the way for sure. Hopefully early next year.

But as you can probably guess, there's no real rush right now. My friend, this uh an absolute uh pleasure honestly uh you were fantastic you were candid and i can't wait to meet you in person one day uh thank you for doing this likewise you're great mike i really appreciate this this is a lot of fun and um yeah when i do meet you i want those beers, it's slam dunk. I wish if I could bike right now, I would drop them off on your porch or something. But absolutely, the beer is yours. Lasagna is yours.

Sticker is yours. It's all yours. Thanks for doing this. That brings us to the end of our 627th show. You can follow me on Twitter. I'm at Toronto Mike. Chad, you told me in that song that you don't blog or Twitter, but you got a Twitter account. Yeah, yeah. Now I do. Well, and not

much, but I do a little bit. So yeah, Shad K Music is my Twitter and it's also my Instagram handle. It took me 10 years, but I came around to it. It's fun enough. I love that line. So everybody, that's Shad K Music to follow Shad. Our friends at Great Lakes Brewery are at Great Lakes Beer. Palma Pasta is at Palma Pasta. Sticker U is at Sticker U. The Keitner Group are at The Keitner Group.

Garbage Day, they're at GarbageDay.com slash toronto mike see you all next week this podcast has been produced by tDS and accelerated by Roam Phone. Roam Phone brings you the most reliable virtual phone service to run your business and protect your home number from unwanted calls. Visit RoamPhone.ca to get started.