Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Simon Rakoff v. Just For Laughs: Toronto Mike'd #1293

Episode Date: July 19, 2023

In this 1293rd episode of Toronto Mike'd, Mike chats with Simon Rakoff about how Just For Laughs is the bane of a Canadian independent comic's existence. Toronto Mike'd is proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, The Moment Lab, Ridley Funeral Home and Electronic Products Recycling Association.

I want you to get up right now! Get up, go to your windows, open them and stick your head out and yell I'M AS MAD AS HELL AND I'M NOT GONNA TAKE THIS ANYMORE! Welcome to episode 1293 of Toronto Mic'd. Proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery. A fiercely independent craft brewery who believes in supporting communities, good times and brewing amazing beer. Order online for free local home delivery in the GTA. Palma Pasta.

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recycling our electronics of the past. Getting hip to the hip. An evening for the Downey Wenjack Fund. On September 1st. The Moment Lab. Brand marketing and strategy. PR, advertising and production. You need The Moment Lab and Ridley Funeral Home. Pillars of the community since 1921. Today, returning to Toronto Mic'd to tell us why, just for laughs, new record label isn't so funny is FOTM's Simon Rakoff. Simon Rakoff, how are you doing, buddy?

I'm great, thank you. Yeah, life is good. Oh, I'm so happy to hear that. Okay, so life is good. We're gonna get right to it because last time you and I talked, and I can't remember when that was, but I think it was like late 20, was it early 2023 or late 2022, or do you have a clue?

I'm bad with, you know what? I can time things to the minute and second but yours slip away from me okay we'll say it was in the last nine months uh regardless it was episode 1096 and i'll just tell you what i wrote in my description because that'll tell people listening like they're like mike i want the a to z Z of Simon Rakoff's great career. And I'll be like, well, go to episode 1096. Or SimonRakoff.com. Read all about me. SimonRakoff.com, though, is your version of you.

People want to hear, okay, how did you sound on a trusted third-party site? But you sounded great. There you go. Yeah, go to episode 1096. Do both, okay? Here's what I wrote. In this 1096th episode of Toronto Mic'd, Mike chats with comic Simon Rakoff

about the perils of Canadian showbiz, the Winnipeg Comedy Festival, and just for laughs. Why he won't work, yuck yucks, and great stand-up comics we've lost. And we chatted for a good 85 minutes there. But you're back because I'm going to jog your memory here and then I want your take on this, Simon.

But I had a note prior to your appearance the first time, your Toronto Mike debut. I had a note from Blair Packham. Are you friendly with Blair? I love Blair. Blair's a good guy, right? Very. He's always sending me notes on people that I should have on my program.

Like, he's probably my biggest booker. He's like, you got to have this guy. You got to have this gal. He's a great, like, resource. So Blair. Okay, so Blair writes me, and he gave me, like, a heads up that you were a little upset at what was going on uh Sirius XM the Just for Laughs radio which we're going to let you explain everything and then I think I asked you about it my memory is I asked you about it and you weren't sure you were ready to talk about it in public am I right

well yeah I was hoping to gather a little more support than it just be me the boy on the burning deck alone you know against the powers that be. But since then, of course, it came out because you didn't know. And I decided, well, I forced your hand. Is that right? Like you basically were. Yeah. OK. And since then, I've gotten I've gotten a lot of response from a lot of comedians, of

course, who heard it and said, yeah, about time somebody said all this. And Saturday in the Globe and Mail, there's going to be a full article about it. And that's by F, I call him future FOTM, Brad Wheeler, right? That's right. Brad Wheeler, who, you know, did an interesting coverage of it, but, you know, also had to be journalistic and tried to be balanced about it, which I understand. Right.

But he left some things out, obviously, because, you know. Okay, so let's do this. We'll let people know and shout out to Brad, who's hopefully listening. I know he did listen to your first appearance on Toronto Mike,

so maybe that was part of his research for this article. But the headline, if you're looking for the Globe and Mail article by future FOTM, Brad Wheeler, it's called some Canadian comics think just for laughs, new record label isn't so funny. So go find that it's online.

It's already online. It's coming out in print on Saturday, oddly enough, but it's already on the website. Well, that's coming out in print on Saturday, oddly enough, but it's already on the website. Well, that's what matters, right, Simon? Like who the heck is maybe to line your birdcage or something, but most people I think read it online now. You can borrow that joke. Okay. I found out, Simon, this is exciting. It was August, 2022. Can you believe it? It was almost 12 months ago. Exactly. Well, I've been waiting a long time for this to happen. And, you know, seriously riding Brad to get on the case.

And he's been very responsive, I'm happy to say. But what's interesting is this is the sort of straw that broke the camel's back. You know, Just for Laughs has been a thorn in the side of many Canadian comedians. In fact, I would suggest most of the community for a long time. It's just that they wield so much power. It's very difficult to get people to say anything about it. Okay. Don't hold back. So, so you're right about, you know, the Globe and Mail have, of course they have to be balanced and Brad's got to present all sides and stuff. And they might, maybe not everything makes the cut here, but this conversation is really for Simon Rakoff's perspective.

I do have a piece of audio later. I'll play because, uh, since you put that bug in my, like my ear in August, 2022, when I get standup comics on, I asked them about it.

Like I've been trying to like get people talking about what's going on with Just for Laughs and SiriusXM. And recently, Alison Dorr came over and she had comments. So later in this conversation, I'll play a minute or so of Alison Dorr. But otherwise, I'm really curious to hear your take on all this. So take a deep breath. Give us that context. So what do you mean Just for Laughs has been a thorn in the side of you comics. Cause from my perspective,

I thought just for laughs was like a great advocate of a Canadian comedy. Give me the real deal here. Well, the real deal is that of course they have to outwardly express that they're big advocates of Canadian comedy because they're, uh, their festival, which is one of several businesses under that

banner, we should just point out, but the festival, which is what established them, is a technically not-for-profit, government-sponsored, government-funded event. And they only get government money because they are a Canadian cultural institution. So they have no choice but to book Canadians. But although they book some Canadians, they mostly spend the money on acts that are not from here. So you might get a week at Just for Laughs or a couple of shows at Just for Laughs as a Canadian, but you're making pennies on the dollar that the foreign acts are actually getting paid um you know like i say they they say it's great exposure but this is

canada where people die from exposure um that's a good line that's a good line so you're telling me i'm reading between the lines government yeah i don't think the government quite understands that there are there don't seem to be any you know constraints on what they're spending the money on once they write the check and i think that canadian acts should be paid properly not just by just for laughs but there's certainly a good example especially if canadian taxpayers are paying them so let me just let me ask some questions here because i don't know any of this so right when the government cuts the check for this cultural event, right?

There's no stipulation in there that, I don't know, I'll make it up, but 60% of the money needs, that you spend on talent needs to be on homegrown Canadian comics. There is no stipulation of that nature. So it couldn't be because if it's 6%, I'm surprised. So if I'm reading

between the lines, they might import a big name from America, let's pretend, and let's say they bring in, let's say Kevin Hart. I'm just picking a name of a big American comic.

Okay. Kevin Hart, and again, I'm making up numbers, but Kevin Hart will receive a Kevin Hart-sized, he's actually not a big guy,

so it's kind of funny to say that, but a Kevin Hart-sized, you can use that too, a Kevin Hart-, he's actually not a big guy so it's kind of funny to say that but a Kevin Hart sized, you can use that too a Kevin Hart sized salary and then the Canadian comics that are sprinkled in there because is it true that they must have some Canadian representation? They just

pay them peanuts. Am I hearing you right? Okay. Yeah, I mean I did the festival I did 10 shows including the televised gala which ran for 10 years on television, like endless repeats. And I got, I think, $2,000 for my 10 shows plus television appearance and 10 years of rights to that. Wait, $2,000 total? Yes. Really? Ridiculous, right?

Now, I had never done Just for Laughs, and I was excited to finally get it after many, many years. And everybody wants the festival because it's a big feather in your cap. But once you actually do it, you realize where we're at in terms of the respect and, more importantly, the payment. You know, it's not something that you need to do more than once, certainly. I mean, you want the credit, but and it's certainly not. It's a thorn in my side. And most Canadian comics feel the same way. The other thing is that they

ignore so many acts. So many of the top acts in canada have never done the festival i mean i think about evan carter who's been doing comedy in canada for 46 years is fantastic a national treasure they've never booked him they just don't care okay what do they care about then is is so what do they what motivates shoulders with celebrities that's do they care about then? So what motivates them? Rubbing shoulders with celebrities. That's what they care about. I mean, bear in mind, it's a not-for-profit, which just means there's no money left over at the end. It doesn't mean they're not all making a lot of good money.

I mean, the people who work for Just for Laughs make way more money than pretty much any comic in Canada. Okay, but this is still a net positive, right? way more money than pretty much any comic in Canada. Okay. But is this, this is still a net positive, right? Like, I mean,

it, this, I understand these, these concerns with, now we're just talking about the festivals. We haven't even got to Sirius XM yet, but these festivals still do showcase Canadian talent, even though it's maybe not a fair deal for us Canucks.

Yeah. Well, it's in Canada and they're getting government money, so they have no choice. One of their representatives literally said the quiet part out loud at a showcase recently. He said, you know, we're only looking at people because we have to for

the government grant. I mean, he was open about essentially their contempt. That is saying the quiet part out loud. On top of the festival, they also run a commercial comedy company, which is still called Just for Laughs,

where they run tours largely of foreign acts through Canada at big theaters with huge promotion, using their name, which we pay for as the promotional angle for these tours, which then cut our grass as they come through town. Nobody's going out to see Jimmy Carr and the local comedy club in the same week. Interesting. So they're sort of leveraging. so they're utilizing this government money to build their brand right and then they're utilizing they're they're leaning on that that brand for a commercial enterprise which as you said is i cut the grass today okay uh cutting

the grass of uh independent comics out there and i'm hoping at some point in this conversation there's so many things i want to cover here but Simon at some point you have to paint a picture for us as to how dire these straits are for independent comics in this country well it's pretty brutal I mean we live in a massive country with very few people

so in order to make a living performing live you have to be extremely available and you also don't, I mean, I can't afford to do a Western tour, for instance, because the cost of travel out West would be more than what I would get paid to play the clubs there as a Canadian performer. You know, we don't negotiate as a group. Comedians are sadly not like these striking actors and writers in Los Angeles who, you know,

gang together to say it's time we were paid properly. You know, if I say, well, I'd like a little more, there's a thousand people who will say, oh, I'll do it for way less or nothing. Now, in my opinion, you get what you paid for and my 45 years of killing it on stage should count for something. But in the end, we're not celebrities in Canada.

Interesting. You know, if you fed a dime for every time, a smaller band, I had my last episode was a member of the Tragically Hip. So let's accept them. Okay, so I didn't think excluding them, excluding Blue Rodeo, you know, I think that's all we have to exclude

in this one, to be honest. But for Canadian bands, it's always fascinating to me when I hear how it costs them money to tour their album across this country. Like, it's not a money-making venture. It's a loss leader of some sorts. Well, yeah.

And the point is, we do it. Those of us who are artists do it because we love doing it. And I would do it for free, excepting I won't do it for free if somebody's making a fortune off me doing it for free. That's how I feel about it. It's fine. I understand they take full advantage of the fact that we love what we do. But the fact that we love what we do shouldn't be a barrier to making a living at it. Right. Okay. So, so much to explore. Now, you mentioned these just for laughs. Yeah, go ahead. The way we made money, sorry, I keep cutting you off, but it's sort of a story as it rolls along. The way we were actually able to make a living for quite a while was through a channel on Sirius XM called Canada

Laughs. Many of us put out independent albums. It's quite inexpensive to produce a record album. A spoken word comedy album is not a very expensive venture. And the play on the radio, the satellite radio generated royalties, which are collected by a company called Sound Exchange in the States. And every quarter, they would send you a check in American dollars. And that check in American dollars was the bulk of many, many, if not most comedians' income for many years. Now, there was an announcement that Just for Laughs was going to take over the radio station and call it Just for Laughs Radio. When that happened, I believe 2019, there was an enormous outcry from the comedy community because it was our main source of income. And our feeling

was Just for Laughs is already making all the money in comedy in Canada. Why would they take the one thing that we have? So the media picked up on that story. And Just for Laughs, you know, at first they tried to convince us it was going to be okay. Howie Mandel, who's one of the owners of Just for Laughs, with a consortium, made a video from the foyer of his marble-coated mansion. I remember that. Turning around to show his grand pianos and grandfather clocks and double spiral staircases up to the main, you know, the second floor, explaining how this would be good for us,

which did not go over well. And the press eventually took our side. And just for laughs, issued a statement saying, we've heard the concerns of the comedy community. We love the comedy community and we will continue to play independent Canadian records on the station, even though it's rebranded. Simon, though, I want to make sure we make something clear here. here so in that you know 2019 when they were uh taking over just for laughs they said they were going to start featuring like recordings from past just for laughs festivals and events like so i guess well i just want to make sure yeah so offering so am i right that let's say simon you played a just for laughs festival and they recorded that they could play that on just for laughs radio and not pay you

wouldn't get a penny because they had the rights to play that because it was recorded at their festival do i have that correct i you know what you might be right but i'm not a businessman and i'm not sure if maybe i would have gotten a few cents but i certainly wouldn't get what i get from when they play cuts from the album that I recorded myself and own the rights to. Okay. And again, everybody should know a lot of my info is coming from Brad Wheeler's article in the Globe and Mail,

which you can see online right now. Okay. So Brad writes about this and he talks about how, like you just did, that when the U Comics made your concerns public and there was a bit of a, an outcry and they kind of reversed their decision, right?

Just for laughs said, okay, we're committed to 100% Canadian content. That's independent, uh, of the just for laughs back catalog. So my question for you, Simon is,

did they keep their, uh, promise of their commitment they made in 2019? Well, this is how they got around their commitment in 2019, is they established JFL Originals, another business with their name on it. And what that is, is a record label. And what they do is they go around the country recording various comedians. So they're not making albums for individuals. They're making a JFL recording of, say, eight, ten, whatever comedians, little bits, and then they own the rights to that.

The comedian gets a performer's percentage, but not obviously the rights holder percentage, which is, by the way, more than the performer. I make more as the owner of my album than I do as the guy who wrote and performed my album. That's just how it works. Interesting. So it's a way around the rule, you know, the very the specific words they spoke, but it certainly breaks the spirit of the agreement, which is which was our fear all along when they took over the radio station. Because as soon as they started launching their record label, myself and everybody I talked to pretty much has lost an enormous chunk of what they used to make. I would say 90 plus percent

of what we used to get paid every quarter from the plays, it's gone down. Now, SiriusXM claims that their relationship with Just for Laughs is purely promotional, but they program independently. And I find that, I don't know how to say it without saying they're lying, but it's risible to think that there's no influence influence that that they happen to be playing a lot of just for laughs records now okay let me just jump in there to like i'm here to dumb it down for the non-comics out there okay so previously uh and is the station called is it called just for laughs radio or is it still called Canada Laughs? No, it's called Just for Laughs Radio.

Okay, so previously called Canada Laughs now it's Just for Laughs Radio. So they were supposed to play albums from comics across this country. Well, or cuts from independent people. And then sort of you would get

a royalty payment of some sorts every time your album was played on this station like this is how exactly okay now they've started a uh comedy label they call jfl originals and jfl originals is recording uh canadian comics across the country. But I also noticed in Brad Wheeler's article that it's not just across the country. They're also going to LA and New York to record all this. But they're recording these comics,

and they're airing this JFL Originals content on Just for Laughs Canada, the radio Sirius XM station. And that means there's only so many hours in a day. So when you're playing a bunch of JFL originals, that's time that you're not playing cuts from independent comics and the Simon Rakoffs of this country. Precisely. And again, they can argue that, you know,

well, we've played your record for many years and it's time for new stuff or whatever they want. But the fact is, it was not a slow decline in plays. It was a instantaneous drop off as soon as they had material from the JFL Originals label. And the fact is that they also say, well, they don't just play on our station, they play on American comedy stations as well. In my opinion, that's fair game. That's fine.

That would be supporting Canadian comedians if they played on other channels, but they shouldn't be playing on this channel, which used to belong exclusively to the Canadian comedy community, of which, frankly, they are not actually a part. They are they are an exploiter of the Canadian comedy community, but they don't actually do very much at all for us. All right. This is a good time for me to play. Let me see how long this is. OK, Alice. OK, so this is about 90 seconds

so we're going to listen to this entire clip in its entirety Alison Doerr on Toronto Mic went a lot longer than 90 seconds but I'm like I'm just going to carve out this 90 seconds because she begins by uh reaffirming something you said in different words but that JFL is shady Alison Doerr says so let's listen to Allison and then we'll get your comments, Simon. Here we go. JFL is shady, okay? In this situation, for sure. And I'm not giving them a pass.

And so they are trying to record as much new content as possible because initially when they took over the channel, they were just playing like stuff from 1984. And it was, and this channel- And it was all Howie Mandel. Oh, Jesus. Don't get me started on that guy so it was and then yeah they stopped playing all these independent comics and quite frankly the canadian comedy industry is in dire straits right this was

one of the only income sources because comics can't live off of just telling jokes and clubs anymore in this country the the infrastructure is a nightmare and so yes that they took every they started taking everybody off and there was a hue and cry and it was amazing and all the comics came together for the one and only time in the history of comedy and so they realized we can't do that without a backlash we can't play all this really old stuff so now they're recording compilation albums and getting people, and those are getting played. And that is probably affecting plays on some level for sure.

But the biggest thing is just that everyone is recording now. And because for a long time time this was an income stream that existed that was safeguarded the comics who knew about it didn't tell other people because they didn't want to lose money right and so a lot of comics now are complaining that their plays are going down and they're finding a lot of reasons for it um and look the reason is there's more content now than there has ever been if If you want to keep getting plays, you have to keep writing new jokes, putting out content. It's just the way it is.

And so some people are complaining because an album they put out 15 years ago isn't getting played as much as it used to. Well, yeah. Yeah, man, there's an album that came out yesterday that's getting played. Simon, what do you say to these words from Alison Doerr? Oh, I totally agree with her, accepting that this is the case with people who have put out albums way more recently than mine. And it's not really about me. Look, if I was worried about myself, I would keep my mouth shut and stay in the good graces of the people who own

the radio station that plays my record. Right. I mean, this is not this is not just me. This is a lot of people. And the fact, again, is, yes, it's good that there's more Canadians recording, but just for laughs shouldn't be playing on their station after they made the promise what that they would not which the comics spoke out about now allison you got to remember also runs her own record label yes howland roar records so allison is doing fine because she owns the rights to many many different comedians records and i think it's great that she's done that. But on the other hand, she's in a much better position than those of us who are independent,

independent, and don't actually own a piece of anybody but ourselves. So she speaks from a slightly different perspective than your average comedian who I speak to would think, you know. Okay. than your average comedian who I speak to would think. Okay, let me talk about these average comedians because you mentioned 90%. Okay, I put that in bold here. So I'm naturally curious.

Did you talk to a couple of colleagues? Where did you come up with that? And of course, that approximation that many of your colleagues have dropped 90%. That approximation is based on myself and a couple of other people mentioning that sort of figure. But in terms of the number of people who feel this way, after I did your show the first time, I had at least several dozen comedians come up to me in the clubs and say, thank you so much for saying that. Thank you so

much for saying what needed to be said. So this is not just me. This is, and again, I understand that people are afraid to speak out. I have a 45 year career behind me. I'm, you know, getting older and am less concerned about A, what people think and be what gatekeepers think of me. Cause I work for the audience and so far they think I'm great, but I also understand why you wouldn't want to piss off, you know, just for laughs or a club that doesn't play, pay very well or plays games with people. I feel like I want to devote what's left of my career aside from of course,

doing my shows and getting my laughs to making things a little more tenable for comedians in this country. You know, this shouldn't just be a hobby. This should be a viable profession for people who are good enough to be able to do it. Why are comedians not given the respect of, let's say, musicians? not given the respect of, let's say, musicians. Okay, so there's government grants in this country for musicians because many musicians come over here and talked about the grants that they've taken advantage of, but there are no such lifelines for Canadian comics, right?

No, there are not. We are not considered an art form by the government in this country, even though internationally we might be the most successful art form that gets imported from this country, even though internationally, we might be the most successful art form that gets imported from this country. You know, I mean, I think about the Canadian influence on American and British comedy is huge, huge. And most of those people learned, you know, with me at the same time in the same places. They sort of expect you to do well and then get the hell out of here. If you want to live

in Canada, you don't get to make a living in comedy. That's a ridiculous notion. Especially, as I say, when there are people making very good money from comedy in Canada. I personally get outraged when I see, you know,

maybe people are complaining that, you know, oh, Simon was getting this money from SiriusXM. Well, he was lucky to get it and now they kind of close that loophole and that's commerce, baby. That's capitalism. Tough sugar, baby.

Meanwhile, the CEO, I'm making this up, baby, that's capitalism. Tough, tough sugar, baby. Meanwhile, the CEO, I'm making this up, okay? But the CEO just bought a second yacht or whatever and nobody's blinking an eye. Like the talent gets fucked. This is true in most businesses now, right? I mean, it's understood that top guys take it all and the workers are supposed to just suck it up. Right.

But nobody is happy about it and many people are supposed to just suck it up. Right. But nobody is happy about it. And many people are speaking out about it. And there is a difference between what we do and what, frankly, a replaceable worker in most industries does. You know, they may say, oh, there's a lot of people who want those gigs. But I know how those people do at those gigs.

I mean, I'm at those gigs. I know my value to do at those gigs. I mean, I'm at those gigs. I know my value to the places I perform. It makes a difference if you're hiring me and somebody who's been doing it three years. Right. But why can't you make a living in this country doing club comedy? Like you used to be able to, or maybe you tell me, you've been around for decades. I mean, there was a brief period where it was pretty good, but that was when comedy was very hot and there were very few comedians a long, long, long, long time ago in the 1980s. But the problem really is the same as almost every industry in this country. As I said,

it's a huge spread of land and the cost of just getting around it to get to people is huge. That's why having an album makes a difference because people can hear it from everywhere without you moving. It's interesting that we talked the first time we talked quite a bit about you and Yuck Yucks. That was one of our topics we spoke about. And even trying to perform, you know, comedy venues in this country, like I can't imagine going, you know, C2C without the chain of Yuck Yucks clubs. Like there's just not enough, not enough clubs, right? I think they have about a dozen clubs and most of them are right around Ontario. Is that right?

Okay, see, you're shining a light on this. Okay, that's why you're here. You're the expert. Okay. I'm saying it's not that you couldn't play clubs everywhere without going through yuck yucks. I mean, most cities, but there are very few cities. I mean, you've got to remember that.

Right. And this really speaks to why JFL festivals are so important in this country because at least, I guess, where are they? Vancouver, Toronto, of course, Montreal is the big one. But there's also, you know, like, I mean, where would you be without JFL festivals? Like it seems like a lot of power for one outfit. It's a huge amount of power.

And again, that would be fine if they paid properly, but they spend a lot of money on foreign acts who don't need the money it's not like kevin hart needs this gig they want to hang out with kevin hart and say look we got kevin hart and you know it's it's part of the whole problem there are endless problems right part of the problem is we can't cross the border american comics can come up here with a letter saying you're booked at the so-and-so club and the border goes, OK, go ahead. We have to go through like an immigration process to work in the States and you can't live here at that point. You'd have to move there.

Well, that's not fair. Oh, you think? Yeah, it's ridiculous. But this is the imbalance of power of the governments, right? That we can't just get a visa that says, yeah, I'm booked at the Chuckle Hut in Boston or whatever and go across. Because frankly, if that happened, if we had equal access to their border the way they do to ours, nobody would work the clubs here because they couldn't afford us anymore. ours nobody would work the clubs here because they couldn't afford us anymore wow well you know what there's so many places we can improve things like we could introduce grants for comics because of course that's an art form i mean i don't know i'll make a call to my mp right after this conversation but maybe uh some you know we talk about fair trade in our agreements but it should be fair going each way for for comics across this these

borders well that's what i my point is that's why it's so difficult to make a living yeah i'm trying to understand so i'm trying to give people an idea of how difficult it is for comics and how like i referred to it as a lifeline earlier but but how vital the the royalty payments were that a comic like you and others like you, it sounds like you're kind of falling on the sword here for the next gen because you are burning some bridges here and I think that takes a lot of courage. Yeah, but I've done this before.

I mean, it's generally me who speaks up. I'm not even a hero type. I'm a very risk-averse person in day-to-day life. Oh, I know. I saw your face when I brought this up your first time on Toronto Mike. I said, Oh, he doesn't want to talk about this.

But the point is that at some point you, you know, they shot the hostage is how I look at it. You know, when they took over the radio and then took away all our money, it was like, well, what do I have to lose?

What, what does speaking, what am I going to not have by speaking out? They're already taking everything. Do you know the name Mark Redmond? No. Okay, so Mark Redmond is the SiriusXM president and CEO, and when Brad was writing his balanced article... I saw his name in the article. So I'll read... No, Mark's not on the program. I would surprise you with Mark,

but anyway. I'm going to read his quote and then a point that uh they made because of course brad reached out for comment from both sides right so as he should uh this is what mark redmond from serious xm uh says he says our job on all our channels is to make sure that we bring the best, newest, and most relevant content that we can to ensure we gain subscribers and retain our existing subscribers. No artist, whether it's a comedian or a musician, should be dependent upon us or any other platform for their sole income. So Mark, that's the end of the quote, but Mark's basically passing the buck onto you. Like you're the idiot who is depending on the money

from our station. We're here to get subscribers and keep our subscribers, not to keep Simon Rakoff sheltered and fed. I totally agree with that assessment. But when he talks about the newest and latest, really, so you don't play the Beatles or the Stones because, you know, those are old records. You don't play that. You only play the newest. No, you don't.

You play lots of stuff that's been around forever because it's good and people want to hear it. Okay. OK, second of all, we don't rely solely on them for our income, but it was a significant chunk of our income that they've now given so much money to Howie Mandel and his consortium of Just for Laughs people who already take the most money out of Canada when it comes to comedy. And my feeling is, in fact, that the only reason they took over the radio and started the record thing was because they saw that there was money in it for us and said, ooh, a quarter. I heard it drop on the floor over there. Let's go grab that one too. When they already had more than enough without stealing ours.

This country is so hard on artists. Just quick aside is that earlier today, I was chatting with an actress who is in every episode of Corner Gas, okay? So Canadian big, that's as big as Canadian sitcoms get, right? Sure. Yeah, that's as big as it gets in

this country so i don't know how many years uh of service she plays a cop in uh dog river saskatchewan okay can you tilly hall yes right and uh she went on the record today to say that she received see zero residuals like so despite the fact that CTV and their many stations air corner gas 18 times a day, not a red cent finds its way to this actress, Tara Spencer Nairn, I think is her name actually. Oh yes, that's right. Yeah, I'm here, that's okay.

I got it all backwards. You got it right. I'll just move the order around. Thank you. Close enough. Yeah. The point is, and it's embarrassing that I got a Canadian actor's name wrong, because that's part of the problem, of course, is that nobody knows anybody. But that was, you know, that was ACTRA, which doesn't represent comedians, by the way. But that was them negotiating away the residuals many, many years ago, because, you know, they wanted a little more up front and they were very stupid.

And I remember the meeting where the actor who was the chasing guy in this fugitive series, a Canadian actor, said that those residuals are what allowed him to stay alive for all these years. And it was foolish to give them up. But the council went ahead and did that anyway. You know, producers want every cent they can get their hands on. This is what I understand. They're business people. We're artists. They're business people. They want all the money and we get to make the art. But frankly, at a certain point, you know, if I'm doing it for free, why would I do it for them? It really pisses me off. And I've always been a fan of the talent, like an advocate for the talent, not management. It's funny.

I have some regulars who seem to take the side of management. And I'm like, what's wrong with you? Where's your soul? But, you know, it's angry to me to find out firstly to find out what's happening to our comics like you but what's happening to an actress in every episode of this sitcom that was beloved in this country and as big as it gets in this country and is airing 18 approximately 18 times a day on various ctv stations and they're selling ads on that and they're getting subscribers on that and not a penny

goes to the that's criminal i think so but you know crime is defined by the people who make the rules and the people who have the money seem to make the rules so this is how it goes and it is terrible and you know the only thing that changes anything, of course, is a level of public outrage. I mean, you would think that just from the notion of being taxpayers, people would be angry that Just for Laughs gets so much money and does not share it with Canadian talent in any significant way. Right. I mean, you know, Leslie Jones and Marlon Wayans. And I was reading, you know know they throw in a canadian so they'll have russell peters as if he needs the money right but russell peters is there but then i was laughing at the uh globe article because it mentions that uh rain wilson who i quite liked as dwight on the office and i remember him from six six feet under very funny okay but he's he's

receiving rain wilson by the way, Seattle born actor, not a Canadian in case you were confused. He's getting the comedy impact award and he's given the keynote address. Like you mentioned earlier about, you know, just for laughs, just wants to hobnob with the stars and stuff. And I think you're onto something there. Absolutely. Look, I get it. They have the money. They want to spend it on what they want. I watched Succession. I understand how people like that think, you know, they don't care about us. And I don't expect them to. I expect other people to be so outraged that they're forced into a PR nightmare that makes them have to do something decent for a change. This is the only hope I have. I don't in any way expect those people

who run Just Bless to hear this interview and go, my God, have we really been doing this? They know what they're doing. Right, right. Well, I think they're hoping that people don't catch on and there is a lot of stuff happening. Or don't care.

Yeah, it's possible people don't care, but there are people who will care if they're aware, okay? And I can tell you, there are things, will care if they're aware okay and i can tell you there are things i learned something yesterday i was uh somebody said hey you you could win these podcast awards your show could win these podcast awards and i'm this like naive idiot who's like oh i'll uh submit myself for these awards and he's like yeah it's like 50 an award per category or whatever and i said wait a minute

so if i want toronto mike to win podcast awards and i'd sell 50 bucks is 50 bucks but the whole principle offends me like that you know and then he's like yeah well you know i'm with you man yeah i don't enter i don't believe in competition in the arts i just don't buy it i don't like it i don't go on so-and-so's got talent i don't enter these competitions for comedy right just don't buy it. I don't like it. I don't go on. So-and-so's got talent. I don't enter these competitions for comedy. I don't put myself up every year for the Canadian Comedy Award, which is by the way, how those work too. So you pay to be considered. Yeah. You can nominate yourself, but you have to pay money, right? Typically. I'm just learning this from you. So my point is, and then I'll get back to the actual specifics of that. But my point is, I feel I'm a fairly like aware and educated guy.

Like I read my, you know, I'm paying attention here. Okay. I'm trying to pay attention here. But I just got educated yesterday that if you want to be nominated for a Juno award, which we're going to get to in a minute. If you want to be nominated for a Juno award, that's going to cost you X dollars, okay? So you can't, you know, it doesn't matter how good your music is.

If you want to be considered, you got to submit with money attached, okay? No guarantees you win, but there's money attached. So I'm like, wow, I just like had this light go on yesterday. I had no idea. That's how naive I am. And in the same regard,

there are many people out there who are just completely ignorant to what's happening with Just for Laughs Radio and independent comics like yourself. And I feel like, you know, I have no power in this universe, but I do have a megaphone. So if I can have a Simon Rakoff on my show for, you know, 45 minutes to an hour just to talk about this one issue, Well, there's the megaphone. You can scream it. Hopefully people share it.

People kind of become aware. And they may be when they're at the bar with their buds or golfing, they're like, did you know? And then they tell the story. And then that person goes home and tells their wife. Anyways, let's raise some awareness that our independent comics in this country are getting royally fucked. Well, I appreciate that you're giving me this time. I really do, because it's been very difficult to

get any attention drawn to it. I mean, I'm on the case, but people don't want to hear it. And bear in mind that there's going to be people in the entertainment journalism area who are more interested in having access to just for laughs than in spreading a story that makes them look bad. And, you know, it's that kind of thing. I mean, we are we are the low people on the on the rung as independent comics. But on the other hand, we're the ones who make the comedy. Right. Actually, you make you make the funny and to me that makes you the the king of the castle now exactly kudos to the globe and mail though because it's already online and you said it's printed uh this weekend i was told saturday

it'll be in the paper yes so i mean there's i mean it did take 11 months from when you came on toronto mike to mention this the first time but that's a huge piece of, you know, Toronto Mike does an independent podcast and he does that in his basement. I certainly hope that this globe thing gets more attention and I hope more people contact me wanting to talk about this

because I will speak to anybody about this. How can they contact you? Tell us how to contact you. The easiest is through my website, simonrakoff.com. I have a contact email thing right there that you can fill out. And yeah, I will definitely get back

to anybody who wants to discuss this issue. So if anyone has a megaphone out there, Simon wants to yell into it. And it's not just me. I mean, I'm happy to say that there are people like Sandra Badalini, Darren Frost. There are some other brave people out

there who are willing to speak out and uh the consequences be damned um but uh you know and i mean i sort of resent the comedians who don't say anything but i also understand they're afraid and they want what they can get out of all these things, right? Well, the way I look at it is they're where you were 11 months ago. Because I didn't know Blair was telling me something that was out of school or whatever. And then I saw the look in your eye and I could tell that this was a topic you weren't ready to broach. But you did it. And I think you were, I'm assuming you were,

I don't know if afraid is the right word, but you were concerned about ramifications to these actions 11 months ago. Yeah. And I still am. But the fact is, once you're the whistleblower, I mean, if you blow the whistle and the people who you're whistling about hear it, there's no reason to stop whistling. You got to make sure other people hear it at that point, you know, because I'm already going to suffer whatever I'm going to suffer for what I said. You know, it's not like if I suddenly shut up, they're going to go, okay, he's all right now. They'll punish me in whatever ways

they have the power to do so. So again, I think it's a, and you said you're not the hero type, you're risk averse, but here you are out on this ledge and I hope others come and join you. And I hope people do reach out and let you speak into their megaphones

and we can raise awareness. Now in this Globe and Mail article, which I've only referenced 25 times at this point, but I'm a big Brad Wheeler fan. I asked Brad to come on Toronto Mic'd years ago and he politely declined but then I was co-hosting a show with Mark Hebbs here called Hebbsy on Sports

and Hebbsy's like, Brad's going to be on the show today. Like join us via Zoom. And I was like, hey Brad, you'll do Hebbsy on Sports but not Toronto Mic'd but regardless one day he's a future FOTM. I'll get him on because we do chat quite a bit but in that article

he quote he doesn't quote but he says that the station Sirius XM points out that all five albums nominated for the Juno award for top comedy album of 2023 are played in heavy rotation

on the channel and And we're in, we're produced by other labels, a couple, I think by Alison door, because one is her brother. That's me talking, but back to the quote here by other labels or independently. So what is your reason?

So I guess, uh, that doesn't, that's terrific. That's nice. And it's not like one of those JFL compilation albums of up and comers is likely to be nominated for a Juno Award. Right.

I mean, it's not of the quality that would get that. But again, that's great, but that's some hours of the day. And I'm not objecting to anybody who gets airplay other than Just for Laughs, who promised they wouldn't. who gets airplay other than Just for Laughs who promised they wouldn't. So if they stopped playing the JFL label content and they only played and it doesn't have to be Simon Rakoff

because maybe. Or won't be I'm pretty sure at this point. I should also say if anyone at Sirius XM, I'm going to get the name of this, I want to call it Canada Laughs but of course it's called Just for Laughs Radio wants to come on Toronto Mic'd and retort or respond.

I'm happy to do it, okay? I just want to put that out there that, yes, I'm pro-talent, but I'm open-minded and willing to hear all sides of everything. So if somebody at SiriusXM wants to come on Toronto Mic'd, I'm mike at torontomike.com. Send me an email and we'll do it because I'm a fair and balanced guy,

just like Brad Wheeler, but okay. You are a fair and balanced guy, but bear in mind their big hope is that this just goes away without any notice. So the odds that they're going to say, yeah, let's give it more sunshine, I would suggest are very remote. That's the Streisand effect, right?

Oh, right, right. Yes, exactly. When you shine a light on something and then everyone suddenly notices that thing that nobody was noticing until you pointed it out. Precisely. They're not that interested, I don't think, in coming on and saying and defending their greed.

I mean, you know, they can do what they want. I totally understand. And they want. I, I, I totally understand and they will, but at least they should, people should know what's going on. A hundred percent. It's all about awareness. Let's, let's know what's going on here. So I think it sucks. I'm glad you're speaking out on this issue. I hope it gets remedied. So other than people reaching out to you from Simon Rakoff.com and reaching out to you and saying, Hey,.com and reaching out to you and saying hey simon

we'd like to talk they can also go to amazon music and buy my album surrounded by idiots and if they download it then i can make some money too i mean you know that's a way you could support me the independent canadian comedian and if you're at a club people could go to that club and see you and buy uh buy a drink or two or three and, uh, support you. Absolutely. Well, that's never a problem. They, they,

they are happy to see me. And most of the clubs that I work are more than happy to book me repeatedly. Who's the best independent comic working in Canada today? In my opinion, of course. Yeah, of course.

Thomas Kalman. He's newer, but I think he's fantastic. I think he's fantastic I think he the first time I saw this guy I went oh yeah he's the real deal oh I'm gonna gotta look him up I don't know the name but there are so many good comics

in Canada I mean I work with so many talented people all the time that I'm just like oh my god that guy's great. That woman is so funny. Regularly, this is not an easy scene with a low standard. If you're working in Canada on a regular basis, you're probably a very good comic. Do you think Canadians punch above their weight when it comes to comedy? Per capita, we produce more funny people than other countries? Yeah, but that's logical, right?

If you think about Canada's position in the world and comedians' position in society, a comedian is somebody who's sort of in the society, but an outsider that views it from a little bit of perspective that is where comedy comes from. So being Canadian, we're essentially like the comedians of America and Britain to a degree. We're part of them in a way, but we're also sort of outside them. So we have that outsider perspective. Excellent.

Now, just like the way to support you, simon is to go to amazon and buy your album and then go to simon rackhoff.com and find out when you're at what club and then go there i know you have no problem with that because you're a very funny guy that's how you got on toronto mic in the first place but if you want to support toronto mic very quickly here if you want to support me i'm an independent podcaster and there's no grants for podcasters either, so I feel your pain there. But I would say if you drink beer, make sure you're drinking fresh craft beer

from Great Lakes Brewery, and let GLB know that you heard about them on Toronto Mike. So they're fresh craft beer from GLB. If you eat Italian food, and who doesn't, buy Palma Pasta family run. There's four locations in Mississauga and Oakville and it's delicious and let

the good Petrucci family know that you heard about Palma Pasta on Toronto Mike. Recycle My Electronics. Go to recyclemyelectronics.ca if you have to get rid of any old electronics or tech or devices, because that's where you can find out the closest depot to drop it off.

Reach out to the Moment Lab if you're looking for any PR representation. I was going to say damage control for Simon or whatever. I'm happy to introduce anyone listening to Matt and Jared at the Moment Lab. They have a great team there that can help you if your PR needs. Shout out to Ridley Funeral Home. Brad Jones and the good people at Ridley Funeral Home are there to answer any questions you have about funeral services. Brad's a sweetheart. I record a show with him called Life's Undertaking, and you should subscribe to that. And last but not least, I mentioned to you, Simon, that my last guest was a member of the Tragically Hip. Well, I'm here to tell you that there is a live event

that you can help Toronto Mic'd by going to gettinghiptothehip.com and buying tickets to an evening for the Downey Wenjack Fund. It's called Getting Hip to the Hip, of course. Use the promo code FOTM10. You'll save 10%. I'll see you there.

That event is September 1st at seven 30 at the rec room. The night after TML X 13 on August 31st. And you know what, Simon, you're invited to TML X 13. Cause that's my event at great lakes brewery, Southern Etobicoke location. I'll feed you Palm of pasta.

I'll get you a drink at GLB. And, uh, it would be fun to see you there, buddy. Oh, well, please. I look forward

to it. I'm sure you'll send me an invite on the electronics before I recycle them. That's right. Before you go to recycle my electronics, that's it. In closing, I thought you were very clear. I'm just wondering what's next

here. Are you crossing your fingers that Canadians rise up and say, we're mad as hell and we're not going to take it anymore? Well, that would be nice and very unusual. But perhaps the person who writes the check in the government to Just for Laughs might talk to them and say, hey, do you guys give Canadians any of this money? You know, it might be a question they might want to ask of their of the people that they're handing the check to.

They might want to set a few boundaries, a few rules. Maybe they do set a percentage of it has to go to Canadian talent that live in Canada and, you know, up the salary cap a little. Simon, it's always a pleasure talking to you. You're a bright guy. You're funny as hell. This might not have been the funniest conversation you've ever had, but. No, I've had funnier for sure.

Yeah. But man, I love the passion and I wish you like all the success in the world here because I don't like to see independent artists getting fucked over. It makes me mad. I appreciate that. It makes us mad too. You've been a good friend. I really do thank you for the time. And

that brings us to the end of our 1293rd show. You can follow me on Twitter. I'm at Toronto Mike. Simon is at Simon Rakoff. R-A-K-O-F-F. Our friends at Great Lakes Brewery

are at Great Lakes Beer. Palma Pasta is at Palma Pasta. Getting Hip to the Hip is at Getting Hip Pod. Recycle My Electronics are at E-P-R-A underscore Canada. The Moment Lab are at The Moment Lab and Ridley Funeral Home

are at Ridley FH See you all tomorrow when my special guest is Robert Priest I wanna take a streetcar downtown Read Andrew Miller and wander around

And drink some Guinness from a tin Cause my UI check has just come in Ah, where you been? Because everything is kind of rosy and green. Yeah, the wind is cold, but the snow won't be the day. And your smile is fine, and it's just like mine. And it won't go away, because everything is rosy and green.