Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Sports Media Roundtable: Toronto Mike'd #421

Episode Date: January 11, 2019

Mike chats with Mark Hebscher, Brian Gerstein and Milon Talsania about the current state of sports media in Canada.

Welcome to episode 421 of Toronto Mic'd, a weekly podcast about anything and everything. Proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, Propertyinthe6.com, KTM Canada, Palma Pasta, Fast Time Watch and Jewelry Repair, and our newest sponsor, Buckle. watch and jewelry repair and our newest sponsor buckle i'm mike from torontomike.com and joining me is mark hebbshire of hebsey on sports brian gerstein from propertyinthesix.com and milan talsania from fast time watch and jewelry repair welcome guys hey mike thanks From Fast Time Watch and Jewelry Repair. Welcome, guys. Hey, Mike. Thanks for having us. Pleasure to be here.

Brian, I want some more gusto in that. I don't believe you. Let's hear it. Hey, man, the Raptors are going to the finals. That's all I need to know. That'll pump me up. Do you promise? Absolutely.

Okay, you heard it here first. But did you say that last year? Reluctantly. My mind said yes. My heart said yes. But in reality, Mike, I knew that it wasn't going to happen. You knew LeBron had our number last year. And you know he's on the other side of the continent now.

He's not playing right now, but he's on the other side. He's not here either. We can always edit this part out though, right? I'm going to cut this out and play it for him when we lose to Milwaukee in seven games or whatever. Welcome, guys. This is something different, okay? So right off the bat, I need to say thank you again to Blue Sky Agency. They're in Liberty Village,

and they actually donated a fourth microphone to the program, and I used it. This is only the second time I've used it because I used it when we did the diversity in sports media panel with Shorali Najak and Sofia Yurstovic and of course, Scott Moore. So we used it that day.

By the way, fantastic story that I'm saving for when Shorali is on the show about how that episode almost didn't happen. I'm not even going to spoil it now, except that there's a great story there. We're using the fourth mic today, and for the first time, we're using the new headphones

that were gifted to me by Chris Brown, who painted this studio. Chris Brown's a good guy. Hebsy, Chris Brown... He's my neighbor. Is your neighbor. Yeah, I see him walking his dog all the time.

I always said his kid that he's walking. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You can't tell? Somebody on a leash. I'm kidding. No, he's a good guy. He lives two blocks from me. And he's got a daughter my daughter's age.

We were chatting about that, like a 14-year-old daughter. Yeah, so that's a small world story there. So thank you, Chris Brown. Thank you, Blue Sky Agency. We're going to, so again, we're going to talk about sports media in this country.

And we're lucky to have Hebsey here who was a member of the mainstream media for decades. And you two gentlemen, Malone and Brian, are not only sports fans, but fans of sports media. You got all the bases covered here.

This is just like your diversity episode here. Was I good in that episode? Absolutely. I was really nervous I would mess that up, but I didn't mess it up. You've listened to it multiple times? Brian, you're from Montreal, but remind us, how many years ago

did you move to Hogtown here? It was late 80s, 88, 89, Mike. And my first impressions coming here right away were basically Hepsy, you know, and Taddy. Are you just saying that because he's 10 feet away from you? No, no. This was my indoctrination to Toronto sports. And without those guys, I literally, it would have taken me years to catch up on my sports knowledge here. That's because you came from Montreal.

They had nothing in Montreal. They had like two guys in Montreal and Montreal's only got like 80 English-speaking people. Who was the Hepzik equivalent? Everybody left Montreal. You were the last to go, right? The last of the English speakers.

I was in the later wave, yeah. How much media in Montreal compared to Toronto, English-speaking? I wouldn't even want to live in Montreal because it's hockey 24-7. I'm not a hockey puck. They have no baseball team anymore.

They have no baseball team, which will come back at some point. They are jealous of the Raptors because they wish, you know, I mean, they don't. They are. Actually, Montreal could support an NBA team if the market is large enough. It's really unfortunate. What about a baseball team? They can because it would be a smaller venue. What about a hockey team?

How about in there? Soccer is big in Montreal. Only if they win. Soccer is very big. They have their really cool stadium, and they have a cheese company. Saputo. That's right. Okay, so before we start, although we've already begun, as you noticed, but let's do introductions here.

So this is actually your chance, because full disclosure, Brian, you're a sponsor of this program. Proud sponsor. Anyone who listens knows that because your voice is on every episode. You ask the tough questions here. What the catchy theme song, dude. Thank you, Illify.

Well, actually, let's introduce you with that because that's only appropriate. Thank you, Milan. So Brian, this is your chance to tell us about Propertyinthe6.com. Well, I'm very excited because Propertyinthe6.com, I'm going to be in Liberty Village the end of January doing a first-time home and condo buyer seminar. So looking forward to that.

I'm doing one the day before Midtown at Young and York Mills. I had it on my promo in one of the podcasts I recorded recently, and I'm sure that you'll update your listeners as the month goes on. The Bare Naked Ladies one. That's right, yeah. With Tyler Stewart. Yeah, he kind of gave me a bit of a ride because it was long, but I'll do my

best to edit the next one down. No, it was great. What does he know? What does he know? Too late now. It's already in the podcast. I know. He was episode 420, and I thought, oh, this guy's... Oh, 420? Well, I was like, Tyler's a crazy drummer for Baronegali. He's probably smoking a lot of weed, right? So I'm thinking, oh, we can talk about that.

He's like, oh, I don't partake. I'm like, oh, there goes that idea. So propertyinthesix.com, would you find more information about your seminars there? Yeah. Actually, I will do a blast out on it through social media. I've already done that. That's, you know, Facebook, Twitter. That's pretty much my two main, you know, mediums that I use,

Mike, for that. And thank you for the coffee. You brought coffees for everybody. And so did Milan. And so did Milan. Right. Milan, you don't have a jingle? No, not yet, no. Is it in development? Yeah, I got to call Illvibe or maybe the four of us can put together something.

Just because you kind of stole... A Beatles vibe here. For some sports media guests, you've been stealing Brian's thunder by asking questions like Ashley Dawkins and Damien Cox. You know, had I known I didn't have to crank out my top 10 60s and 70s tunes, I would have done a sports media show. It was your brilliance, Milan,

that brought that to the table. Okay, and that actually is a big inspiration for this episode. So that's what sparked this. So Milan and I did an episode

pretty recently about, and Hebsey will give me a hard time about how I use the word recently. Like I'll use the word recently, but this is probably, what, three months ago?

Yeah, in November. Right. Well, okay, so three months ago, and I would consider that recently,

and then Hebsey will call me out and be like, that's not recently. You have a strict range of time that recently would apply to. Yeah, recent memory. If you have to remember when it was, like you and Milan are both going, September, October, November, then obviously it wasn't recently. But I'm still referring to the Molly Johnson episode as my recent episode. When was that?

August. The day the Queen of Soul died. I'll never forget when that was. Whatever date that was. So, Milan, we kicked out the sports media jams. Episode 397. Which, normally, that would be kicking out the jams, like Brian did, and Hepsi did. Hepsi's the first guy to kick out the jams, by the way. Oh, I didn't know that.

But you hate music. Is that correct? No, no. I'm trying to stir the pot here. No, no, not at all. I hate music. Is that correct? No, no. I'm trying to stir the pot here. No, no, not at all. I love music. And you also love sports media, so we did kick out the sports media, and then we thought,

hey, you know who else loves sports media? It's Brian. We've got to get him in the room, and I'm like, well, now that I've got a fourth mic, who else? And I was thinking, well, Hepz is going to be here anyways.

We literally just finished recording. As long as you're here. Episode 67. As long as you're here. Episode 67. As long as you're here, I'll buy you breakfast afterwards. Stick around and we'll do that. Oh, you're buying us breakfast. I don't think so.

You're the one who invited me to the show. Didn't you? Did you get invited to the show? You're leaving. Trust me, I'm going to feed you with a large lasagna and you're going to have a six-pack of beer. I don't feel like a lasagna this morning.

The sponsors are staying quiet. Who can write it off? We'll talk about it later. Someone line, please. I'm sorry, you don't have a jingle. I can't play off? We'll talk about it later. So Milan, please. I'm sorry. You don't have a jingle. I can't play you a

jingle, but I do have a jam for you regardless. All right. Yes. This is sort of your unlicensed theme song.

This is my theme song, yes, when I walk into work every morning. Let it simmer a moment and then we'll get to fast time.

This says sports media. It has sports media written all over it, doesn't it? Everybody's dancing. I love it. Watch your head. Should we tell the people Brian hit his head pretty hard

you did too right I did too yeah so I'll bring down Return of the Mac your theme song and tell us a bit about Fast Time

and you're a proud sponsor as well absolutely yeah proud right absolutely proud I love it when Brian says proud

it warms my heart and we're both fiercely independent as well everyone but Paytm. But they're great people. Please, tell us about Fast Time. Thank you, Mike.

Yeah, it's Milan from Fast Time Watch and Jewelry Repair. We've been in business for almost 40 years. We were formerly Sears Watch and Jewelry Repair. And after Sears closed, we branched out into the malls under our own name, Fast Time Watch and Jewelry Repair. We have 12 locations throughout Ontario. We plan on growing a whole bunch more. And yeah, we're proud sponsors of Toronto Mike. Quality watch and jewelry repairs for over 30 years is sort of our slogan.

So if you need a watch or jewelry repaired, we're here for you. Do people wear watches as much as they used to? You know, it's a good question. I get that asked quite a bit. And they're making a comeback, believe it or not. More as a fashion accessory. And we're really known. We can fix the low-end watches.

We kind of say we fix anything from a Timex to a Rolex and everything in between. Let me ask about the Fitbits, right? This is the big craze. Hebsey just got a new Fitbit. He's showing you right now. Those bands suck. Yeah. I think they're terrible.

Yeah. My mom's broke twice or whatever. Can you do anything about that? We're coming out with a new line of Fitbit watch bands. Good. Yeah. And also on smart watches as well. It's hard to put on.

I'm fairly strong. And it's like you really got to line these things up. It's really difficult to put on. Whereas a watch should be the's like you really got to line these things. It's really difficult to put on, whereas a watch should be the simplest thing. Exactly. Really a snip snap, but this for some reason is like frustrating and you're not supposed to shower with it on. You can get a little

wet in the rain, but you're not supposed to take a shower. So yeah, I find to me anything on the wrist has got to be easy on, easy off, but easy on for sure. The last thing I want to be is, you know what it's like trying to put cufflinks on left-handed and there's no one to help you and you're like, oh, I can't get it through and then twist the thing around.

It's just too difficult. No, there you go. So we're here for you. So if you're a customer like Mark, we're here to service you. And you can get 15% off the regular price battery installation. That's something we don't do. If you just say you heard about it on Toronto Mic. That's right.

Is that true? Because I've been saying that, that you don't do this. No, we don't. So you broke the rules. Yeah, we broke the fourth wall here. Is that called a lost leader in business or how does that work? Sure. It's, you know, we...

You want someone to come to this. You want someone to experience it, right? Exactly. It's like when I was flying to England, I inquired about flying business class because I thought, you know, that would be neat. I'd like to experience that. And even though it cost me way too much, the idea was I kind of like to, I'm sure if they would say, listen, if we've got seats, we'd love for you to experience it. Because if you do and you like it, you're going to come back and you're going to tell someone else about the experience. Hey, I got great service.

So, you know, I was trying to, I'm trying to, you know, circumvent the system. But I was like, listen, if I could upgrade for a few hundred dollars from England in an eight hour flight, I'll do it. The fact that it was $1,400 to upgrade, I was like, thanks anyway. But the idea was, you know, I'm sure. And she even said to me, she said, you know, we listen. I mean, why would we, you know, why would we want to fly with empty seats here? We would love for you to experience it because we think you would really enjoy it. And you might someday say, you know, it's worth the extra money or pass that along to a friend.

Yeah, there you go. In the return of the Mac, are you the Mac, Milan? It's more focusing on the return backed by unpopular demand. Because Sears F2, is that what you're telling me? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they're doing the same thing in the US now. So it's timely that we're on.

Timely. Yeah, that's horrible. Yeah, yeah, timely. By the way, I'm shaking. For the record, I'm shaking my fist at Sears. Yeah, it's awful what they've done. But anyways,

that's a podcast for another day. Yeah. Well, we'll do that one. That's a series. Yeah, exactly. It's a Searzy. But yeah, here's a cheap plug. Visit FastTimeWatcher that one. That's a series. Yeah. Exactly. It's a series. But yeah, visit, here's a cheap plug,

visit FastTimeWatcherFair.com for more information. That wasn't cheap. How was that for? That was about three seconds. Pretty good. How was that for again? Hey, that's my music.

It's like Pavlov's dog. When I hear that, I expect to hear Hebsey's voice. Talk to us, Hebsey. You have to pay Los Lobos extra money now, right? You have.

Can you, for the record. You didn't get approved here. You got approved. On your show. That's for my show. It's for you. Yeah. Give me the money and I'll pass it along to them.

How much are we talking here? $7. I got to pay the return. Who does return the back again? You only got eight more seconds. You only got six more seconds of this. And then it's going to cost you another $7. Tell us about what I believe, and I'm super biased,

but I'm interested to hear Milan and Brian, because they're far less biased than I am. I believe Hebsey on Sports is actually, for a Toronto sports fan, the greatest podcast on the market. That's my, I really believe that. I'm not making that up, like a marketing guy. Hebsey, actually, before we hear about Hebsey on Sports, Brian and Milan, have either of you heard this podcast?

Now, be honest. I know, Brian, you must have listened. I never miss an episode. But you're being serious. I'm being completely serious. I love the way you set it up here, Mike. Anyone listening is going, is he fucking with us? Is he?

Like, what's he doing? They want to know the look on your face as you're asking the question. What is he? Is he trying to open it? No, obviously I know Brian. Backhanded, left-handed, backhanded compliments. Just before dental surgery kind of looked like that. I think I wrote about a 500-word basically just talking about the greatness of Hep C on sports.

And I alluded to that and I spread it around everywhere. It was embarrassing, yeah. But that, again, came from the heart. Thank you. Especially coming from Montreal and listening to guys like Ted Teevan. Give him the machine gun there, McGillicuddy. I think this is before our time, Mike.

Well, it's also a different city. Great sport. In the Halcyon days of sports talk on terrestrial radio, where you listened, there wasn't cell phones. If you wanted to call, you actually had to call from your landline at home or from a pay phone, if you really wanted to get through. And anyone that got through on the air was in danger of being abused if they didn't know what the hell they were talking about. If you called up and said, yeah, I want to talk, I think the Leafs should trade Nazem Kadri for Connor McDavid.

You would get hung up on abuse. Out of your mind? Don't be ridiculous. Don't waste my time with talk like that. But nowadays the talk shows are like, and now our guest expert from the same company that we work for is joining us on the road. Hey, how are things at the Westin Hotel in Colorado? Tell us about tonight's game.

What did you have for dinner last night? Real riveting stuff. I'd rather hear a caller who was pissed off calling up saying, what the hell is going on with so-and-so and a traitor? A fan, a frustrated fan who was with the team through thick and thin.

Not some guy who's a beat writer. No offense. But again, it's like I just read 2,000 words of your story. Now I've got to listen to 5, 000 words of the same thing because you gotta fill 15 or 20 minutes on a segment of a four-hour talk show mark just took all my points okay so all of them at once okay wait we gotta get milan sports we haven't got to that so what about your experiences yeah i'm a brand new listener to hepsey on sports, and I agree it is a long... Does Toronto might count as a sports podcast? No.

No, you're not. It's the comedy podcast. It's the prolific ideal. What's the term? Platonic ideal of podcasts, as per the Toronto Star. Yes, the platonic ideal of podcasts. That's old, though. They called you that how many years ago?

A couple of years ago. Yeah, so now you've got to change that. That's not recently. I didn't say it was recently, Mark. So you like what you hear from that? Absolutely. I think it should be back on the air. Well, it is on the air.

I mean, on Terrestrial Radio in addition to having that. No, but see, then we'd have to go for commercial breaks, right? And then your commercial would get stuck in the middle of a six commercial, eight commercial cluster. And no one's listening. With traffic and weather where people have already done. And then in a podcast, it would be eliminated from the podcast completely. There wouldn't be that commercial set. You wouldn't even get it in the podcast. In the podcast, it would be eliminated from the podcast completely. There wouldn't be that commercial set. You wouldn't even get it in the podcast. In the podcast,

it's there forever. Someone listens to whatever episode of Toronto. If they listen to episode 401, for example, Toronto Mike, a year from, 20 years from now. I wonder what episode 401 was like. They're going to hear the commercial that was... It's baked into it. That's embedded

in perpetuity. Yes. Mike Richards is back on 960, which is a horrible signal on where I live in Fern Hill. The point is, there's five-minute traffic updates in Mississauga.

Paid for. Five minutes. Paid for. That's a good point. Paid for. So what happens is that now, programming versus paying your bills. Programming, paying your bills.

What's more important? How do you find a way? That balance is way off. That happy medium so that the content you're giving while you're on the air is good, entertaining, and enough that is going to sustain the listener and want them to come back after the commercial break. They understand that in that commercial break that you've got to make your money. You've got to sell your ads. They get that.

But is there enough in that programming that they're going to want to stick around and then come back after six minutes or four minutes or whatever the commercial cluster is with the weather, with the traffic? That's the hardest thing. Hardest thing to be able to do with a podcast, hopefully it's so organic and easygoing, that before you know it, you've listened to 20, 25, 30 minutes of it, you're engaged in the conversation.

They're not going for a commercial break. There's no weather or news update. And any conversation about the sponsor generally is done in such an easygoing manner, you don't even know it's a commercial. That's the difference. To subscribe. Has room to breathe, basically.

Right, right. To subscribe to Hebsey on Sports, and everybody listening should do so immediately. Hebseyonsports.com is your gateway to Apple or Spotify or Google. And it's not just about sports. Not just about sports. It's about the people who love sports and happen to love

Toronto sports teams. I'm glad you mentioned this. Over other teams, perhaps, but they're still interested in other goings-on in the world. I have boatloads of respect for Mark Wiseblood from 1236. I think he's just a great surveyor of the digital media landscape. And he told me he loves Hebsey on sports, but he doesn't love sports. He hates sports.

That's the ultimate compliment. Isn't it? That really is. And I'm like, wow, like a non-sports guy loves it. I must be getting through to him on a different level because he's not a sports guy at all. Right. Now before, sorry to cut you off, I realize now with the four mics live. That wasn't cutting me off.

The four mics live, I mean, I can't make this longer than the Tyler Stewart episode. I have to be sensitive to the timelines of people. But I want to tell people. What if people haven't listened to the Tyler Stewart? They have no idea what you're talking about. Then they're going to pause, go to that one and come back. They just went right to this one. Tyler who?

Yeah. Yeah, who the hell is that? Baldy 67. Baldy 67. Before you were a podcaster. Wasn't he a left winger? Wasn't he, Tyler Stewart? NDP guy, yeah.

Actually, I Googled his name and that came up. You're right. Did it really? Doesn't that sound like a hockey player's name? Twilight or Kristen Stewart? Oh, that kind of left winger.

Hebsey, before you were a podcaster. We're trying to get the millennials back there. Including your Oshawa contingent. Before Hebsey on sports, you were in the mainstream media. Let's play this clip and remember. You know what will happen today. Who will win it? It's going to be a party.

Roll it to the net. Who will lose it? He travels. Come on, ref. He travels. Going back, going back, going back for the wall. Look out. Meanwhile, look at this.

The Heimlich maneuver backwards. How will you know how hard will they hit? How hard will they fall? How will you know? Sportsline knows. Weekdays and Sundays, 11.30 on Global. You know I never miss Sportsline. It's a great show.

Appointment viewing, 11.30 at 12. Destination V, absolutely. If I had a fifth mic, Jim Taddy might be here, but I ran out of microphones. But then Mark wouldn't. No, not true, actually. That's not true. I was hoping to see him at the Gordon Bob Stelic event

the other night at Mike Wilson, the Ultimate Leaf fans place. But he couldn't go. He was working that night. No, it would have been a hoot. Could you imagine a photo of that? That would go viral. I was going to say. Give me the photo.

Okay, so this is the anniversary of an episode I did of Jesse and Gene. Okay, Jesse and Gene. 680. You know Jesse and Gene. And I had an old photo of them from Q107, like back in, I don't know, early 90s. No, about 96. Okay, 96. Yeah.

But they had two terms at Q. They had two terms at Q, that's correct. So they had one earlier, like a longer one. Yes, is that the one? Yeah, I believe so. So that would have been in the late 80s, early 90s? So I used that to promote the Jesse anniversary of this episode.

And then Gene Valaitis tweeted at me a recent picture of the two of them together. And this is them today. I need the equivalent for Jim Taddy and Mark Hebbshire. I need to make this happen. Maybe I invite them both on and don't tell them, then just trick them or something. Is there a better chance of a picture

with Jim Taddy and Mark Hebbshire or Dean Blundell and Mike Boone? That's a good one. No, listen. Look, I would have had a picture taken with him the other night, like I said, but he had to work. I would have had a picture snapped.

And then I would have sent it out and said, there you go, okay. So I want to let you all know that you're all getting gifts from other sponsors, okay? So this is the gift time, and then we're going to dive in. And just to tell people, we're going to start with sort of like memories of the way it was

in sports media, the way we remember it anyways. The perception of today's sports media. We're going to talk about the decline of the polarizing commenter. We have some examples there. Commenter? What's a commenter?

Yeah, commentator. Oh, commentator. What's a commenter? People who comment are not... Okay, save that gold for later here. Diversity in sports media we're going to cover. We're going to talk about media critics and their demise. And we're going to discuss the role of new media

like podcasts and The Athletic and the Keegan-Mathesons and those other independents. We're going to talk about gambling. And then we're going to discuss some sports media personalities that are on the sidelines that we'd like to see back in the game. Lots to cover, as you see. So we're going to start burning here. So we're going to start? Are we starting now?

You're all getting a lasagna, a large lasagna from Pomposa. Who's the meat one? Because I know there's two veggies, one meat. Hebsey. Okay. Hebsey's getting a meat lasagna. I'm a meat eater. I'm not a big meat eater, but I do happen to. I just, there's something about lasagna where I think I've got to have the ground beef or ground turkey, but I do happen to. I just, there's something about lasagna where I think I got to have the ground beef or ground turkey

or whatever, like I got to have actual meat. Can we edit that part out for the PETA sponsor? Right. When they cough up a check, we'll talk. Milan, you're getting a vegetarian lasagna. Thank you very much. And you, Brian Gerstein, are also getting a vegetarian

lasagna. This is my youngest, who's no longer a meat eater. How long ago did that happen? Last year, and we're still adapting to it, but that's fine. A lot of chickpeas? No, no, she'll still eat chicken. Lentils? No, no, she's not that radical. Oh, so she'll eat chicken?

Oh, yeah. Oh, wait a second. Wait, so a vegetarian that'll eat chicken? She doesn't eat meat, like red beef. Oh, red beef. Oh, okay. Because there's various ways. There's like total veganism.

There's vegetarianism. But I'll eat eggs, and I'll eat fish, and I'll eat chicken. Maestro Fresh West eats fish, but no other meats. That's cool. You know what? I could do a diet like that. I could. I could go without.

Chicken would be tough. Red meat, I could do without red meat. Chicken? Yeah, chicken would be tough. That'd be a tough one. Thank you, Palma Pasta. Go to palmapasta.com to find out a location near you. There's a great new

Palma's Kitchen that you should visit near Burnhamthorpe and Mavis. Thank you, Palma's Pasta. You're all getting six packs of craft beer. Just a question on Palma Pasta, because the hockey pool, I'm going to see Amphi. Do you want to participate in the hockey pool? Yes.

Just putting it out there now. Now, Milan, is it worth it? This drive here today was 90 minutes, right? Approximately, yeah. Because we always start at 6pm. You might have to leave at noon. I'm going to take the red eye, right? At 2pm. You can fly out of Porter and go

to Buttonville Airport and be home in 15 minutes. Closer to April, we'll be in touch. But yes, Brian and Anthony participate in this hockey pool. Okay, terrific. You guys, you're all invited, of course. Thank you, Brian. Is Hepsi allowed? Because he's like me.

Of course. Yeah, I was going to say. Guys, I can't. For vegetarians only. Thank you, but I have to decline. I would win and it wouldn't be fair. $20. I have a steep advantage on all of you guys.

I can't do it. I'm not a gambler anymore. Right. We'll get to that later. Milan and Brian and Hepsi, you're getting a six-pack of craft beer from Great Lakes Brewery. Great Lakes beer for everybody.

Great people there. They're fiercely independent, as you said earlier, and I use that phrase often. I love it. PayTM Canada, they will give everybody $10 if you use my promo code

Toronto Mike when you make your first bill payment. I pay all my bills with Paytm Canada because they pay me to pay all my bills and it's super easy and convenient and I manage it all in one spot. So go to paytm.ca, download the app. Again, promo code is Toronto Mike? And I want to thank our newest sponsor, Buckle. Buckle is B-U-K-L. If you go to B-U-K-L dot C-O, that's Buckle dot C-O, and you enter, if you need work done on your automobile, you enter your car, make and model, what year it is, you say what service you need, you get instant quotes from shops in your area.

You can book the appointment right away. Then you just bring your car in, you get it serviced, and you drive away. You don't even have to pay them because you get automatically charged through the service. It's seamless.

Buckle.co. Give it a go. B-U-K-L dot C-O. And here we are, boys. You ready to rock? Let's do it. Very pumped. I was going to kick out the jams there

for a minute there. I'm like, wait a minute here. So let's begin with you, Milan. Today's, let's talk about memories. Memories of the way it was. Yeah, I mean, again, episode 397, I think we covered it pretty well.

Okay, on to you, Brian. No, I think one of the things, and it's a big contrast to what we listened to today, and I'll just give a recent example. I know Mark loves that word. Last Friday, you know, it was a good day. Oh, that is recent.

Yeah, yeah. So, you know, the biggest thing I think we find, or I find lacking, excuse me, is the lack of local programming that's on the air today. And it was just something as simple, you know, I'm a big fan of primetime sports on The Fan. And the show ended at 7 p.m. And here's a night right after an emotional Raptors loss to the Spurs

with Kawhi's return to San Antonio. They're on track for a big weekend against Milwaukee for first place in the East and Indiana on that weekend. The Leafs had a big weekend. And at 7 o'clock, they go to CBS Sports Programming on a Friday night. And I couldn't believe that. That's syndicated programming. Syndicated programming.

Do they normally have a local show on? I believe they do, yeah, because I'm usually driving home from work that time. Does anybody know if they have a regular evening show? Because they've got games, right? They've got a rapid game. It's a rotating guest, so I think it's usually Russick or Ashley Docking. But there's no consistency. No.

And that's because they have live consistency. No. And that's because they have live sports. Correct. And they have to broadcast the game. So you've got to know the schedule. Is this game on CSN 1050

or is it on the fan? And if it's not on the fan, what do they have for programming? But there was no game on that night. There's no money to be made in terrestrial radio

at that time of night. There isn't. Nobody's going, I've got to have that 7pm because everyone's listening. They don't. Right. But it I've got to have that 7 p.m. because everyone's listening. They don't. Right. But it goes back to Mike's point about the way it used to be. And that's where I think it's the lack

of local programming and the lack of avenue for younger talent. We remember, for example, Merrick and Strombo and The Game. They called it The Game, right? The late night... That's right. Now I almost said Late Night Vampire. And of course,

that's another show that we used to listen to. I used to listen to a lot of Norman Rumack, for example. And then the kids would get the microphone to be live late at night. And I think a lot

of interesting people showed up on that show. I think even maybe Friedman and a lot of interesting people. But that's all gone. There is no more live programming. I didn't know it started at 7 p.m. I didn't know that. Well, I don't think it's an every night thing. But still, that's all gone. There is no more live programming. I didn't know it started at 7 p.m. I didn't know that.

I don't think it's an every night thing. Still, that's surprising that at least get yourself to, I don't know, 10 p.m. of the live local stuff. And Mark's absolutely right. He knows the ins and outs. I mean, I'm sure for economic reasons, it's not worth it,

but it's just something, I think radio, and especially sports, it's all about local programming. I think that's what drives, that's why Hebsey on Sports is successful. I talk about Toronto sports or pop culture, things that we can all relate to.

I can't relate to Auburn and Clemson College football preview on a Toronto, on a major Toronto sports radio station on a Friday night. But the other thing is though, if the personalities that you follow from Toronto are talking about

Alabama and Clemson, and I know there's a few examples where these people are tweeting out going, I'm watching Alabama, Clemson, this is great. And you're going, wait a minute, shouldn't you be watching the Leafs or whatever was on that night? Because you're from here, but you realize they work for

a national network. They're not here to give you your local Toronto stuff unless it's the team that they are following because it's owned by their same company. No, I'm saying CBS shouldn't even be on the air at that time. No, you shouldn't. If you're going to have syndicated programming, rerun one

of your earlier shows. I agree. Go rerun the Jeff Blair show from that day. No, get us a live show. Get us a live show. Right, right. But if you're going to have a live show, don't use U.S. syndicated programming. That's what I'm saying. Find something else. Exactly.

The only time I see syndicated programming always is around Christmas time when everyone's off and then they just pick it up. That's an automatic. Weekends, though. Weekends on radio? Come on. Weekends. Nobody.

There's, I don't know of anyone on either station, 1050 or The Fan, that's on regularly on the weekends except for Roger LeJuan. It's been 25 years. Who the hell listens then if you're a sports fan? Like, really? I mean, you're watching. But if you're in the car, if you have to be in the car, your go-to is, if you're a sports fan,

your go-to is what's happening now in sports. I was in England, man. The sports there is fantastic. They've got a reporter at every event. Now let's go to Blackburn Rovers are taking on so-and-so. Guy gives a 30-second report, an update, back to so-and-so. What's happening in tennis? Let's go to Australia.

Here's so-and-so at the Australian Open. Yes, so-and-so has just defeated so-and-so. So you're always getting that. We don't have that here. And you know what? With the immediacy of today's, especially digital, where I can find out on Twitter in two seconds what's happening and what people are thinking,

why not, if radio is that immediate, why not take advantage of it for your local audience? And I think that's a big problem, is people, they already have other ways of getting their information rather than flipping on the radio. And because of this, it's like, why would I turn the radio on at 7.30 at night, you know, and hope that there's going to be somebody I like listening to? I'll just get it off Twitter, or I'll get it off... But you're interested... But Mark, but... Sorry, Mike. No, you go ahead. But Mark, I think that there's going to be somebody I like listening to, I'll just get it off Twitter.

But Mark, I think that... Sorry, Brian. That's radio waving the white flag then. Well, look, radio makes money on morning drive, afternoon drive. That's it. Trust me when I

tell you this. Radio is not making big money from rights from the pro sports teams. It's sort of a, I don't want to say a necessary evil, and let's face it, you Trust me when I tell you this. Radio is not making big money from rights from the pro sports teams. It's sort of a, I don't want to say a necessary evil. And let's face it. You know, when the Blue Jays for years and years were on the fan, even when Rodgers didn't own the fan, it costs a lot of money for rights. You're paying announcers. You better be getting your money's worth,

and you better be looking after your sponsors. You've got to get in all those spots. You've got to do all that. So it's a different, you know, it doesn't, but it's not, it doesn't cost as much. Because you can't, teams can't demand that much from their radio compared to television. So naturally, radio, I mean, I could have the TV on and I'd be in the other room. It's radio to me. The difference is if I hear a home run being here, I can run into the other room and watch it.

But then, Mark, what do they have to lose by putting young talent on the air? I remember listening to Dan Schulman. The first time I listened to Dan Schulman was on 1430, and he was doing a sports radio update, I think, at 7 in the morning or something like that. And that's how – there's no avenue for that anymore. Sure there is. You can go to YouTube and you can watch the latest.

You can find – I guarantee you, there's tons. Look, there's all kinds of Blue Jays podcasts, all kinds of Leafs podcasts. There's my podcast. Look, it depends what you want. But if you want a diversity of sports, if you go, geez, I'm hoping that the fan has the same level of interest that I have

in the sports. Number one, I want to hear about the Leafs and the Raptors and the Jays and TFC and the Argos if you're a CFL. But the point is that now you're running the station and you're going, okay, what are we going to put out there now

that's going to get people to listen? And I'll be honest with you. If they said, we got a couple of kids, the next George Strombolopoulos and the next Dan Shulman, how many younger people or people such as yourself

are going to go, I got to hear that. I want to listen at 10 o'clock at night or midnight or 8 o'clock at night to this new talent. It's hard. But they're getting that rub. They're building their name. Like to me, if you're going to syndicated programming at 7 o'clock at night to this new talent. It's hard. But they're getting that rub. They're building their name.

To me, if you're going to syndicated programming at 7 o'clock, if you're the fan, and you're the leader in Canada's largest market, you're no different than TSN 1050. And look what's happening to them. They're irrelevant. They're dying. Terrestrial Radio, though, just to interject,

Montreal Expo's early 2000s, they didn't even have a contract to even have their games broadcast. They were on the internet. Dave Van Horn was on the internet. Yeah, it was a complete embarrassment. Sure was, because it was worth nothing, because the rights weren't worth any money. Correct, correct. They didn't have enough of a fan base that was listening on radio where they could sell ads and recoup their losses or what they spent to acquire the rights. They looked and they said, we can't sell advertising that's going to equal that what we paid for

the rights. How do we pay for two announcers and travel and accommodation and per diems and everything else when the advertising dollars aren't there? People aren't going, yeah, let's put our money on radio live expos broadcasts. So did internet kill the radio star? No, I don't know about that. That's a hard thing to say.

Mediums have always changed over the years, decades and all that. And sports fans at their core will always find what they're looking for. And, you know, what I've done is being more, less a hockey puck and, you know,

more a hoops, you know, follower is I've sought out, you know, who I want to follow. And, you know, I had them through a couple of amazing properties, Raptors HQ and Raptors Republic, a couple of amazing sites. I have my people that I follow. You also can watch every game in any definition that you want to with any package now, where before, you know, you'd be, oh, there's a game on.

Like everybody would. Now, every game is on and you can get it anywhere. you want to with any package now, where before, you'd be, oh, there's a game on. Now, every game is on, and you can get it anywhere. So much noise out there, Mark. But you cannot get great sports talk or independent sports talk or relevant sports talk that's balanced from someone like you, as opposed to, oh, I need the inside story.

Well, guess what? You got the inside story from the locker room, you're going to get what they spoon-feed the guy that gets to go into the locker room. Well, guess what? You got the inside story from the locker room, you're going to get what they spoon feed the guy that gets to go into the locker room. Trust me when I tell you. Nobody that goes into the locker room is going to stir up any shit because it's just going to cause a problem with the organization. Be nice. Ask Mike Babcock

the nice questions. Mike Babcock comes in and gives you the answer before you ask the question. He knows what you're going to ask. But athletes are also too schooled now because they're all PR trained. It's ridiculous. Exactly right. You used to be able to get a guy on the side and the guy would say something like, look, this team doesn't get their act together. There's going to be some hell to pay and I'm going to be

the one that's going to be administering that. I think that's the biggest issue. Have you heard a Ross Shapiro interview? It puts you to sleep. I can't take it. Worse than Ken Dryden? It's brutal. Worse than Ken Dryden. Well, Ken Dryden goes on longer, but Shapiro is more annoying.

But you know that Ken Dryden read his own book, audiobooks. When that book came out, the game, I had him on radio. He was my guest for two hours, and I gotta tell you, it was the most painful. It felt like 12 hours, because his sentences would go on and not stop in the same time.

So slow. It's very monotone. And I think, when I remember, and I can hear his voice now, that's how he played goal. He played goal on that same level of da-da-da-da-da-da. No emotion at all. In the meantime, the book was great. I read the book. When I heard the audio book, I couldn't listen more than two minutes.

I'm going, oh, my God, this is painful. That's because he was falling asleep on his hockey stick all the time. But my point is that how many times have you heard someone going, how is this guy or girl, how are they on the air? Would I want to talk to this person on the phone? Would I want to be involved in a conversation?

And if their voice doesn't have any emotion or excitement or electricity or emotion or whatever. If you're a sports lover, where is that passion as opposed to, well, I am talking like I am reading something off my computer screen right now and it says that he is shooting 32% on free. Boy. I love that point about the voices. Fans don't sit in front of the TV.

Fans don't sit in front of the TV going Fans don't sit in front of the TV going, oh, I got to check the percentage. I watch, I actually watch the game. I actually sit and watch the game. Now, if there's a break in play, I might, but I don't, while the game is going on, go, that's another exit pass by Morgan Riley. That's seven and it's 43 percent.

He's now, I don't do that. I watch the game. And that's why, and I mentioned this to Mike, where there's so many people are so concerned with statistics and exit breaks and all that, they don't see the game as a fan would watch the game. Right? Like, if something happens during a hockey game,

a goalie makes a great save and something happens, you don't have time to assess that because the play has gone all the way down to the other end. It's all part of one play. And for you to take that portion of that play and say, oh, you know when this happened back here in the middle of the play? I'm sorry. Hockey's a different game.

You can't break it down while the play is going on that easily. You've got to watch the whole flow. Can I pick up something Milan dropped? You said it very quickly there that TSN radio is irrelevant. Oh, yeah. Can you just elaborate? Because that is a Toronto radio station that is all sports, and they've been around now, I don't know, at least a decade, I want to say.

I don't have the exact date. I don't remember when they showed up. How long has 1050 TSN radio been around? Almost a decade, I think. It may be over, actually. What? Over a decade? It's been a long time, Mark.

What year? Does anyone have any? Come on. Who wants to Google this? You know the answer? What year Over a decade? It's been a long time, Mark. What year? Does anyone have any? Come on. Who wants to Google this? You know the answer? What year did TSA? No idea. Okay.

Who was their first morning show? Mike Richards. And that's 10 years ago? I don't know. I said I wasn't sure. I don't know. Recently. Somebody here Google it.

Recently. Mike Richards. You're telling me for 10 years they've been chasing the fan? Yes. 10 years? With ratings of 0.something. I don't think you're far off. So Milan, what makes them irrelevant?

I need to know what you're thinking here. I'm trying to be eloquent on this. I don't listen to that station, so it's hard for me to really go into any further detail. The fact that I don't listen to it and I'm a diehard sports fan. Why don't you listen? There's no compelling personalities. To me, it's just, it's infomercial

for their programming. Bell! Come on, Bell Programming! That's what 590 is, really. Like, everybody on there is Elliot Friedman or Nick Kiprios or Wilner or Shai Davidi.

Like, it's the same thing. You're just picking, I think, because we're similar age and we've had this chat, that you have these wonderful memories in the 90s of tuning in CJCL. Yeah, and I'm in the process

of going through a midlife crisis. Right. So we remember the good times, right? Right. And I think you're used to going to the fan for your sports. And you haven't tried out O-Dog. I hear good things. I actually, honestly, I listen to very little radio in general.

But I hear good things about this O-Dog show. What's it called? I did give them a chance. Overdrive. I hear good things. You might like it. I was a Michael Landsberg fan on Off the Record. So I did give them a little bit of an opportunity in the mornings and it just wasn't compelling to me.

Brian, which station covers tennis more? 590 or 1050 or none of the above? Well, 590 because Roger Lajoie has his tennis show. Oh, come on, Brian. He brings on Tom Tabbit. Nobody knows when that's on and no one's listening when it's on. Hey, Mark, it's out there.

Brian, Thursday nights at 7 or not anymore? Sometimes it's on at 11 o'clock at night. It's called Aces. Aces, yes. Fine, so I have, but it's been on, I don't know when it's on. I don't know if it's Thursdays and there happens to be a Raptors game Thursday or a Jays game Thursday. Come on.

There's such a thing called a podcast that you can access quite easily at your leisure. We're talking about over-the-air radio. Yeah, over-the-air radio. Yeah, whatever, it's on. But I get my tennis fix. I know where to find it. Right.

You know you're not going to get it at the fan or TSN 1050. Not really, no. Thank you. No, either one. That's all. They try. Yeah. Sort of.

They dabble. If something's going on, like if there is a... What's the name of the Canadian who just was in the final? Andre Eskew. Right. Okay. That will come out of nowhere. Andre Eskew.

She made the main draw to the Australian Open. This is the biggest story since Slice. Not really, but it's good for Canadians. It's good for Canadians. How is this man not on Terrestrial Radio? It's good for Canadians. He's smart. He's on Hepzion Sports.

That's right. And we're going to get to that later when we talk about new media. But, okay, fascinating. So, Brian, did you have any more to add on the way sports media was versus the way it is? Like, what are the differences? For me, the big difference in sports media now is that you can personalize it. And I have a schedule.

I just want to kind of throw in there. Oh, yeah, let's hear it. Yeah, here's my schedule. This is like my weekly schedule, my must-haves, you know, that I watch religiously or follow.

The starters, basketball show, it's 22 minutes on YouTube. I watch it on a daily basis. Wow. That's the old Basketball Jones guys, so they're amazing.

And I have Hep C on sports twice a week. So that's my 40-minute teacher. Do you wish it was five days a week? No, no, because I think Mark would burn out. I agree. Yeah. Look what happened to dealer or no dealer and who wants to be a millionaire?

We don't want him to be like Regis. It's like Paul Godfrey says, right? It's better to leave politics two years to- It's hard. Yeah, it's hard after a listen. If you can't come up with stuff and you're forced to say you've got to come up with something,

that's not good. It's never good when it's like, how am I going to fill every single day or every three hours a day or whatever it is. Bryce Harper got him on fire today. Listen to that. So let me continue with my list. I have a show called The Jump, hosted by Rachel Nichols at 3 o'clock.

Excellent show. It's fantastic. She has Tracy McGrady and Pippin and amazing writers on there that follow basketball for me. And Toronto Mike, all the sports media ones and then others, you know. But not the non-sports media ones. Well, it depends, Mike. Milan's the same way, by the way.

And also PTS, you know, of course, but, you know, depending on who the other chairs are occupied by. And I won't go into too much detail on that right now. No, we want some detail. Who would be in a chair that would make you turn the channel? Yeah, John Shannon, the voice, you know, unfortunately turned me off from the outset and just, I never kind of could gravitate to him or warm up to him.

I still haven't. So he's an automatic switch for me. He's not your cup of tea. No, he's not. And that's fine. It may be for others. That's great. I respect that.

But that would be for me a big stop sign. What about Ken Reed? Well, Ken Reed, a loyal Montreal Expos fan and sports card collector. So I have a lot of allegiance and I enjoy him.

But small doses, I would say, for Ken Reed. Wait a minute. So you're giving him a break because he's an Expos fan and a sports card collector. That's all it takes. But you can only take him.

I don't get that. You either love the guy or you don't love the guy. But Brian makes a good point because I agree with Brian because I find Ken Reed intolerable. No offense to the Reed family. But he did a segment a few weeks ago on sports cards, which I did find a little bit of interest because it brought me back to the

90s. I think Brian at Raptors I agree with them. I know what Brian means by that. It sounds funny but Ken Reed is, to me, he's my John Shannon. You're John Shannon. Equivalent. But I did find him a little bit interesting for the

first time when he talked about collectibles for a few minutes. Yeah, so I think from 8. collectibles. That's his niche. For a few minutes, yeah. So I think from 8.37 a.m. to 8.42 a.m., he's tolerable, and that's about it. It's a small dose right there. You guys are harsh, man. Real talk. Okay, so you all...

Hebsey, do you ever listen to your former... You worked for Bob McCowan, right? Yeah, I was Bob's first producer, yeah. Do you ever listen to primetime sports these days? Sure, yep. On the roundtable, so we know a couple of names you guys aren't particularly fond of, at least Ken Reed for

Milan. PTS has never been better, though, in my opinion. Okay, so tell me. You know the reason why, because I've told you this many times, Mike. It's because we got Brandt and we got Deutsch, and I love them both. And equally, I really enjoy it, and I know I'm always going to be informed, educated, and entertained. I agree.

What do you say, Hebsey? I don't know what you're talking about. Who are you just referring to there? Richard Deutsch. Am I pronouncing it correctly? I struggle with it, too. Richard Deutsch. Deutsch, Deutsch. He's the co- correctly? I struggle with it too. Richard Deutch. He's the co-host. And who?

And Mr. Stephen Brunt. So they're the two co-hosts. They're in the chair. It's 40 weeks a year. Richard Deutch is a writer from Buffalo who happened to be a Sports Illustrated writer who is a media guy. His media stuff is about US

media as much as Toronto media. Which is fine. That's a nice balance. He does, I mean, his media stuff is about US media as much as Toronto media. Which is fine. That's a nice balance. He's not from Toronto. He's got to stay off my turf. He's not from Toronto. He doesn't know about the history of the Leafs,

the Jays, the Raptors, all that stuff. He's not a Toronto guy. That's okay. McCown's a Toronto guy. I'm open-minded. I'm open-minded.

I'm okay with that. Now, Brian's a big fan of Deitch. We've had this chat because my, the way I see it. No, I like,

listen, I've listened to Deitch's podcast and he's a good, but not as a Toronto, hi, I'm flown in here to Toronto. I Deitch's podcast, and he's a good, but not as a Toronto, hi, I'm flown in here to Toronto, I love it here now in Toronto. No offense to Richard Deitch, and there was never any offense to Chuck Swirsky either. You come in as a guy from the States

to look after a certain niche, basketball for Chuck, Chicago guy, get that. Don't all of a sudden start to tell me about the teams that I've been following since I was a little boy. Not interested. Not interested little boy. Not interested. Not interested in that. Not interested in anybody who's not from here. But a market's nothing new, right? Yeah, but I'm saying that's not my cup of tea. Somebody that's from here that's got some history. I agree. Oh, it happened before I was

born. Well, let me educate you to Toronto sports fans. This is what it's been like since 1967. Here's the way it was for basketball fans before the Raptors came. All this stuff. So Richard Deutch or been like since 1967 here's the way it was for basketball fans before the raptors came all this stuff so richard deutch or deutch or whatever yeah he's being paid money to be on the air because he's a big u.s name from sports illustrated is he drawn in that many more fans is it because mccowan mails it in sometimes according to people i don't know all i know

is the show is on three hours a day, five days a week. It's not easy to do. To come up with compelling talk and to have interesting guests and different varying opinions. But that's why I think Richard's perspective is refreshing in a way from a US perspective.

And it's no... Jim Kelly used to do it right from Buffalo. Yeah, Jim was good too. There's numerous. Elliot Price is the morning man, right? From Buffalo, I think, before. And Jim was good, too. And there's numerous. Elliot Price is the morning man right now. Yeah, he's a Montreal guy. Andrew Walker, didn't he come from the West? Mitch Melnick is the one I was hoping to have. And no offense to Elliot,

but Mitch Melnick is still in Montreal doing their drive show in the afternoon. And he's the guy I would tune in and I still do from here. So I enjoy him. Now, there is this uniquely Canadian phenomenon, which I actually don't share, and I still do from here. So I enjoy him. Now there is this uniquely Canadian phenomenon, which I actually don't share,

but many Torontonians are really interested in what Americans think about us. Like it's almost like, even with bands and stuff, like, oh, they like us. They really like us. And this is how we judge ourselves. How are the Americans viewing us? Oh, look, they mentioned Toronto on this TV show.

It drives me nuts. Yeah, and this is a big deal. So I have a feeling like hearing an American who sounds like an American every time I tune in he sounds like an American talk about I don't know say something like Kawhi Leonard is the I don't know let's say the second

best player in the NBA like we hear that from his perspective and we somehow feel pride like even the Americans are recognizing we have a good player on the Raptors we need to hear an American to say it to feel validated somehow. I agree. It drives me nuts. Sportsnet runs those on the Raptors.

What's the US media saying? It makes us look and feel small. This whole Christmas game. People shut up about the Christmas game. I agree. Masai called them out though for that. If you remember at the beginning of the year during the opening press conference, there was a question alluding to that fact, and Masai said, like, enough already.

Get over it. Toronto is a world-class city, and I'm tired of this bullshit. And fuck Brooklyn. Yeah, that too. No, I agree where Mark's coming from, from a U.S. You don't want the airwaves filled with that,

but Brian Burke's an American. I know he's worked here in Canada for many years. For many years. Why does Dan Schulman have to tell his U.S. counterparts who are always making fun of him, saying, oh, Canada, hey, look, there's another Canadian guy. Oh, it's R.J. Barrett this year. Hey, look, you're going to have another one.

All that stuff. And he feels that he has to always say, hey, man, I'm from Canada. He does that all the time. I stick up for the Canadians. Yeah, right. Right? So this is because it's like,

look, you can't get away with this anymore. We're Canadians. Right. Right. So this is because it's like, look, you can't get away with this anymore. We're Canadians. But the idea that like, this is the inferiority complex squared. Like, oh, we're not sure of ourselves. We're from Canada. Oh, oh, the Americans are saying good things about us. Well, that makes us feel better. This is why all the talented people end up going to the States.

There wasn't anything for Dan Shulman here that could have kept him from being a top, top college basketball announcer and baseball announcer. Adman Virk. There's another one. Well, there may be something to do with diversity with Adman Virk. You're right. Very talented guy. very talented guy, but might have been in a situation where his progress was accelerated because of the fact that people want to, and you know this, Mike, as well as anyone, they want to move up people of color and also females and the disabled to become more representative of our

community. And Adnan Virk was brilliant, but I have to tell you, if Adnan Virk was who he was 25 years ago, he would not have been advanced as quickly as he was, and he might still be doing stuff on the fan or whatever type of thing. He may have, and he's very talented, but these aren't things that people looked at back in the day. They didn't say, look, I don't care what color or if they're female or male or disabled, right?

It was an old white guy's kind of a thing. I have a quote here from John Shann I wrote on specifically for today. Oh, your favorite. Yeah, John Shann. This is going back from an article that I researched. William Hewson did an article on it about women. He said, women broadcasters have to be 20% better than their male counterparts to be accepted as credible journalists by a largely male audience. I wonder how much that applies today.

He's absolutely right, and it might be more than 20%. Because the females that are on the air today have to know more than the guys. They have to. Okay, I'm putting a pin in this one because we're going to definitely come back to the diversity in sports media, definitely.

But I'm surprised nobody's mentioned, as we talk about the way it was and the way it is, nobody's mentioned what I see as the biggest change, which is that now the bulk of your coverage is coming from people receiving paychecks from the same team they're covering. Like, to me, the fact that Rogers owns the Blue Jays and Rogers owns Fan 590 and Sportsnet,

and these are where you hear it on the radio and television. Like, to me, this is the big thing that's different from back in the day. I think, and I think kind of leads into the point about, that's my perception of today's sports media. I think that's the biggest problem. Mark touched on it before and so did Brian about the lack of, you know, use a Toronto Mike term, lack of real

talk on the air. And I think that's the biggest, biggest issue you know, that we have today. And I, it brought back, you know, Leafs TV. Do you remember when that came out and the Raptors, and I think they're still on, Rapt brought back, you know, Leafs TV. Do you remember when that came out and the Raptors? And I think they're still on Raptors TV. There's still Leafs TV.

Yeah, there's still Leafs TV. What a disaster that's been. You know, what a complete and utter disaster. That was supposed to be the Nesson. They used to have some games. Right, exactly. And I remember paying like three bucks or whatever it was to get it because it had Leafs. But I remember that was going to be the Nesson

or the Yes Network of Toronto. And that was a failure. And I remember that was going to be the Nesson or the Yes Network of Toronto. And that was a failure. And I know TSN and Sportsnet came and Rogers came and took over from the Teachers Pension Fund and all that kind of stuff. But that was a great, to me, that is a great example

of a network that, you know, had a monopoly. And instead, they just went with bland voices, no real talk. And people don't want that today. And I think that's the biggest issue we're facing. But that's where we're being fed today. That's 100%.

And that's why I think people, like Brian's list a few minutes ago, it's all non-Rogers and Bell entities, right? That's a good point. I didn't even realize that. Right, other than PTS, right? And that's the whole thing. So people are looking for podcasts like Hep C on Sports

or Toronto Mike for their real talk because all this filter talk, it's painful. It's not fiercely independent the way we like it. I can tell you this. All the people that work at these places hate it when people talk like this about, are you guys real journalists or whatever? Are you because your paycheck? They hate it. And talk like this about, you know, are you guys real journalists or whatever?

Are you because your paycheck? They hate it and they fiercely fight back. And there's many big name people that are just, listen, I would be like this no matter what. And you know, I, I, I, it's hard because that's where you get paid. You, you're not going to be going to your boss and saying, listen, that team sucks.

I can't keep propping them up and making excuses for them anymore. It's driving me crazy. Look what happened to Mike Wilner. I'm just about to say. Okay. Well, Wilner, we'll get to this. One second.

Don't forget. Okay. Now I forgot what I was going to say. Okay. So it's not so much your team sucks. I think that they're still going to say the team sucks. I feel like there's license to do that. Where I think the trouble is,

is with concussions and CTE and these kind of things, you'll note that Rogers is far quieter on that subject than TSN. That's not a coincidence. I think that's where the partnership interferes. If Gary Bettman rules with an iron fist and there's this major partnership between Rogers and the NHL, then the coverage of

something that sensitive is different than, oh, the Leafs suck. If the Leafs suck, I think Kiprios and the gang are going to tell you the Leafs suck. It's different than

CTE. Savvy fans know that these networks are more interested in looking after Gary Bettman than they are the viewer. Got to protect your investment. Rick Westhead on TSN, I think that's his name.

He's the one who's exposed it. The guy who looks like me. Yeah. Yeah, actually, that's pretty close. He's the one that has come out, and he doesn't hold back at all. And if he was working for Roger Sportsnet, do you think he would see the time of day? That's because he's a journalist, though.

That's right. He is a journalist. He's an investigative reporter. No, no, no, no, no. Forget the word investigative. A journalist is investigative. It's natural. Some more than others. Investigative journalism is redundant. If you're a journalist, your job is to investigate. That's just the natural. If you don't do any investigating, you cannot claim to be a journalist. You can't. You

can be a commentator. You can be a newsreader, a presenter. What do you want to call it? But you're not a journalist. Right. So, great example. Rick Westhead's work of TSN is a great example. Is there an equivalent to Rick Westhead in Rogers Empire? Brunt used to be.

No, are you kidding? No, he used to be when he was a journalist only and not a commentator. When Brunt was the Pan American Games, I lost respect for him when he was participating in the Torch. Oh, you know what? I feel he got a raw deal there. Maybe, but it just didn't look good. The optics were awful when he did that.

He can't. So let me just get straight. Just to touch on this briefly, because I know this controversy exists, but because he's covering the Olympics, he can't participate in the flame? What do you call it? Should have gone to someone else?

Is that what you're saying, Brian? It just doesn't feel right. Should have gone to a regular person as opposed to a personality? But all over, though. I'm trying to understand this argument. Can you elaborate, though? What is it that is irking you there?

He can't cover the Olympics fairly because he participated in this great tradition? I just felt at the time, it just didn't feel right that Brent was out there fairly because he participated in this great tradition? I just felt at the time, it just didn't feel right that Brent was out there. First of all, it's not Brent. Brent is someone who's more behind the scenes and writing

great articles and all that. Not being a participant. It didn't feel like Brent would even do it. I was surprised. That caught me off guard. That was just really odd. He's a proud Canadian above everything else. It didn't bother me at all,

to be honest with you. I thought what exposed him further was the, not further, but what exposed him a little bit was that rah-rah piece he did on Ross Atkins

and Mark Shapiro. Mark Shapiro, I think only. I don't think it was Mark Shapiro. It was Mark Shapiro, right. And I thought that... Well, I called him out on that and he just said, yeah, I beg to only. I don't think it was Mark Shapiro. I was sorry. It was Mark Shapiro, right. And I thought that... Well, I called him out on that and he just said, I beg to differ.

And he explained himself. But I agree with you. I agree with you. And it kind of goes back to, Brian, you were talking about Mike Wilner. Oh, yeah, please. I think it goes back to that. I listened to his podcast

when I was going on a nature walk and I even told Mike at the time, this was another time and I didn't buy it for a second. The second time I listened to it, Mike's explanation on it. So, yeah. I'm just curious. Sorry to yeah. I'm just curious.

Sorry to interrupt. I'm just curious to hear Mark's point of view from that perspective because Mike and I, we joke about that all the time. That's when sports media, we sort of say. That's when we realized

our innocence was lost. When we realized Willner would be suspended for criticizing Cito Gaston's use of the bullpen. And it hit me because I've been to his home. Not that I know Mike well, but we went to Rotisserie Baseball League. Met his daughters.

It really hit me at that point. You know, when you kind of put a face in real life. And you met him at the TMLX, too. That's correct, yes. And I enjoy his work. I know he's very polarizing, and I know you're going to have him on the air in a couple of weeks. A couple of weeks, yeah.

One thing. But, yeah, so I just couple of weeks, a couple of weeks. Yeah. Um, one thing, but, uh, yeah. So I just want to hear Mark's point of view on that is that for me, that was a real turning point in sports media. Like I thought it was an honest question. I remember something on Lyle Orbea or how the bullpen was using to see it Oh Gaston.

And for that, he suspended for three days by, by the network. He works after that point. It was, it was take the weekend off. Those were the actual words. Take the weekend off, right.

But I don't blame him. If I was him, I probably would... Excuse my French kiss. Rogers ass too. Shape up and fly right because you need to feed your family. If I have a family to support,

exactly. And the lack of jobs that there are in the media. But Brunt too, right? What's the incentive for Brunt to bite the hand that feeds when there's so few hands feeding in 2019

and you have children and college expenses and mortgages and cottages bite the hand that feeds when there's so few hands feeding in 2019. And you have children and college expenses and mortgages and cottages and Newfoundland homes, et cetera, et cetera. I totally get it. So let's hear Mark. Go ahead, Mark.

We're waiting with a bated breath here. If you're asking a question that you know that your audience wants to, would like to ask Cito, he, and he doesn't want to answer it and you belabor the point. And he looks up and goes, don't you, don't you work for us? Like, aren't you embedded with us?

Like, you need to back off. And I don't recall the conversation or how it went. I didn't hear it. But if Mike was the bulldog that he is, and he wanted to rephrase a question that Cito didn't want to answer, and believe me, I've known Cito for many, many, many years. You've got to know when a guy doesn't want to talk, he don't want to talk. And if you rephrase the question and he still gives you the no, that's a signal to say, move on to something else.

Isn't that wrong? What? Isn't what wrong? I mean, he's giving you the signal, but are you serving the masters or are you serving your audience? I know what the answer is. You're serving your audience. But for example, Milan, if let's say you got a chance to talk to Cito or John Gibbons or whoever it was, and you said,

I need to ask you about that move you made in the eighth inning when you brought in the left-hander. And he looks at you and he says, not going to comment on that. And you go, well, I think the audience would like to know. And you go, I don't care. I'm not going to comment on it. That's a signal for you to back off. the audience would like to know and you go i don't care i'm not going to comment on it that's a signal for you to back off and if you continue to go you go at your own risk now if you happen to work for an independent organization you got your master is going to say

way to go milan good for you you're asking the questions that you want but if you work for the company and it's all optics here the guy looks looks at you and goes, wait a minute. I know you. You do the pregame show. You do the postgame show. You're going to... Do you not know by now? But it's a baseball-related question, and Cito shouldn't be in that. He's not asking about his family or anything like that.

But you're telling me that a manager should be able to, after a tough loss, go, oh, he's got a job to do. I'm going to let him press me on this particular one. Yes. Look at it. It's not going to happen. It's a job to do. I'm going to let him press me on this particular one. It's not going to happen. It's not going to happen. Now, these guys you hear asking John Tortorella or any of these other hard-ass coaches questions,

I guarantee you none of them are working for the company that pays the same paycheck as John Tortorella, the Columbus Blue Jackets, or anything like that. They're not. They're independent guys. And let me tell you another thing like that. He has every right nowadays, because he can, to say, I don't want to talk to this guy here.

I don't want to talk to that guy there. And my job is to win hockey games. And if you don't like it, get somebody else. I remember the opening media conference when Kawhi was here. And there was a question. Who's going to ask this question? You know it's going to come up. And there was a San Antonio beat writer that flew up specifically and was asking Kawhi,

who was on stage with Green at the time, he said, so what happened last year? Can you give us an explanation? With the nine games you played and no medical reasoning and all that, and we knew right away it would never be a Raptors beat reporter or anybody on the Toronto scene, but it just shows you that question would never come out

from a local reporter. That's a great point, Brian, and that's my issue. Didn't want to issue, didn't want to rock the boat. Why is it Toronto media, we're always the last ones to hear? We are. You know, there's a great article on Sports Illustrated a couple of days ago on Kauai, I think by Chris

Lennox? Yeah, I read that. Yeah, very good. Right. That's information I never heard from the beat writers, the Doug Smiths of the world, or the Arden Zwellings, whoever's covering the rap, Michael Grange, or Ryan Walstad, why, you know, input from Serge Ibaka, or Danny Grange, Danny Green,

I'm sorry, Danny Green, you know, being upset for the questions, you know, he's Kawhi's horse whisperer kind of a thing, or gold swisperer, you know, that kind of thing, but why is it, or Kyle Lowry being upset, you know, he went to the Rachel Nichols of the. But why is it, or Kyle Lowry being upset, you know, he went to the Rachel Nichols of the world or an American or Wojo or one of those guys. Right.

Why, like this, we're missing that. Or JP Ricciardi when he was here was buddies with the U.S. media. It's so frustrating, I can tell you. It drives me nuts, Milan. You're right. And it's never going to change in the current climate we're in. But don't you think it would be the opposite if it's a team's owning that they would have more access to it? Like this is what

we listen to. They get scoops. Shai Davidi gets scoops all the time. Basically, here's Shai, you could run with it. But it's very built. But it's limited.

It's always the good stuff that can come out. Wait, wait, wait. A scoop suggests that you in your digging or your relationship with someone, you got some information

that no one else has. When they hand it to you, it's not a scoop. True. You're right. That's a good point. A scoop was the Toronto Sun when they went to go visit Josh Donaldson in Florida. And I forgot, Rob Longley? Yep, Longley.

That's a scoop. That was years of relationship being built. That's a scoop. The other is just an exclusion. Right. Even that's dying now because these newspaper reporters are not even going with the team. There was a guy from TSN 1050,

Scott MacArthur, and Colby Rasmus had a relationship. He cultivated that relationship. And when Rasmus wanted to talk, MacArthur got him and they did some great stuff on the plane one day and waiting for whatever or they went for a bite to eat. So he cultivated this relationship. And then when he came out with a story that nobody

else had, it was like, well, where'd you get this stuff here? You know, what, what's going on? And what kind of relationship have you got here? And are, you know, you're telling the full story or are you only telling your kind of side of the story because you have a relationship? And the other reporters got upset because they didn't have that kind of, they didn't get that stuff. Like, the guys at Rogers knew nothing about the Colby Rasmus thing. I forget what the issue was. But this other guy had it because he worked for it. He developed

a relationship. He got the trust of the player, which is very difficult to do these days. It takes time. And then he gets his story and then after a while it's like, oh, well, you know. Like you and George Bell, right Mark? Listen, George,

look, I got along, I got along well with George Bell because I didn't take any of his bullshit and I knew the kind of a guy he was. He would say something, he'd be real blustery and most of the reporters

would back off and I would go, hey George, like whatever, serious and he'd go, oh, get out of here,

get that camera out of my face and I knew that he wanted the attention. He wanted to be loved. He wanted to be pursued. he wanted to be kissed he wanted to please george please please give us a story he kind of wanted that right and so if you showed any weakness at all as an interviewer he would attack you but if you stood up to him and said george you went oh for four last week took the golden sombrero and dropped two fly balls in left field. Don't tell.

He'd go, oh, okay. He'd get his back up, but he'd give you a good response. You'd know where he was coming from, and you'd be able to go, okay, George is an emotional guy, and he got upset that day, but he explained himself out of it, and then he went out and hit two home runs and attacked the pitcher the next day. And you're going, he's my kind of guy. Listen, I need some real talk from you, Hebsey. In your illustrious career,

and I do know the answer from Hebsey on sports. You like that word, illustrious? No. No, you don't like it. Okay, well, in your mediocre career... I like illustrious better than mediocre. In your career, when you covered these local sports teams,

have you ever had your credentials denied or removed? Yeah, several times. So isn't that similar to the Wilner thing? Like they can't punish you by firing you or suspending you, but if they can take away your credentials, they're essentially removing your livelihood. Like I'm going to make this up because he's an independent

and I can pick on him and also he's a friend of the show. Keegan Matheson covers the Blue Jays. If Keegan Matheson starts going at the Blue Jays, the Blue Jays could remove his credentials. Sure, there'd be a little outcry from places like here, or maybe the Toronto Sports Media site or something. Who else is going to cover it, right? But that would be a shot across the bow.

Okay, Keegan, your credentials, here they are. We're giving them back to you. And you watch next time. Keegan won't do that story. So please pick it up, Mark. Like, tell us about, maybe give us a little bit of background on when you were suspended and for what.

And if this is a concern today, and I believe it's probably more of a concern today. I would think so. I think that any reporter that works, unless they're working independently, they know where their bread is buttered. They understand that you can only go so far. You're in some kind of a partnership with the team and you better know where

you stand. And there's a certain line that you can't cross. You can't do that. So it takes away from the ability of any good reporter to get the story and still be able to present it in such a way that it appears as if it's a balanced story. It's hard. Let's face it.

You're got a partner. You got someone looking over your shoulder saying, ah, don't think the ball club's going to like that but if you're independent and you deserve to have credentials and the credentials are meted out by the organization right right if you're with the baseball writers of association of america for example and they suspend you and say we're taking your credentials away you've got a very strong support group to say hey you can't do that he's a legitimate reporter for a legitimate news outlet now i don't know keegan matheson knows his stuff but could keegan matheson cover the blue jays without having access to the clubhouse or the players probably absolutely can

richard griffin or pick a writer that doesn't go on the road with the team, isn't allowed to. His organization won't let him. And they say, you're going to cover the game, but you're going to cover it by watching the game on television. You can get all your clips and everything when they show the live press conference with John Gibbons, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Write your game story. There you go. Did he need to go to the clubhouse to get the quotes? Or did the quotes come to him five minutes after the game and he watched the press conference live?

Seriously, if I told you of all some of the stories that you write, if you didn't see the dateline, which is the story that says that this comes from New York City or came from Florida, if it just said special to the star and it was last night's Leaf New Jersey game

featured do-do-do-do-do-do, here's what Coach Babcock had to say, da-da-da-da. Marner, after his goal, was asked this question and responded this way. And the guy did the whole thing by sitting at home. You wouldn't know the difference. I guarantee you, unless they wrote in their story,

I approached so-and-so in the locker room, you would not know if they were at the game or weren't at the game. But Mark, I think people don't want to read stories anymore about the game. Yeah, I agree. I was going to say exactly that. Yeah, I think that's why the athleticic has found a void and has now come.

Right, they're not writing game stories. They're writing commentary pieces. I'm not interested, and that's why newspapers are dying. Well, look at the fact that someone tweeted it yesterday and today. I guess it was The Star, two days in a row, when he picked up the newspaper at 8 in the morning, no scores from the night before. And I said, who goes to the newspaper to get their scores from the night before. And I said, who goes to the newspaper

to get their scores from the night before? That's wasted space in the newspapers. Nobody reads the paper to get last night's scores. My dad is 86. He knows he can get the scores online. Newspapers should have gone the way of the athletic a long time ago. A long time ago.

And that's what's killing them right now. This isn't the expo era when I used to wake up five in the morning, wait for the Gazette to hit my doorstep and I could run out and just inhale the box score from the previous night. Yeah, it's totally different. And you know what? The other thing is, and Mike had asked me this

a while ago, I said, it used to be I knew more than almost anybody in sports. Now, I don't know anywhere near as much as some people that have the capacity and the time to be incredibly knowledgeable about not just one sport but like a bunch like i used to know a lot about every sport and now i find that if you are really into hockey you know a thousand times more than me a million times i could never get my head around how much you know because when you started um searching out hockey information

there was tons of it available and there's even more and more and more available at your fingertips i don't know as much i couldn't tell you who all the rfas are this year what they made last year and what the cap it is but i know that these guys that i watch that's all they know there's a guy that works for the athletic i don't know where he lives he doesn't live anywhere near toronto he streams the games sometimes he goes and says anybody can can anyone tell me where i can get the leaf game because i don't get sports net one i don't he could be living in the yukon it doesn't matter but he watches the games and then he does a report card after every game now i watch the games i don't know how you can watch 20 guys. I read the report card every night

after every Raptor game. I watch it. Raptors are public. I see the grades. I do that after every Raptor game. I see the same thing, but I go, how does this guy grade? Like, how does he do that?

So what I'm saying to you is that there is so much information available to you that you have to be able to disseminate and say, all right, who is this guy? Does he know more than me? Like, I'll see a thing, and I'll say, well, so-and-so played a great game, and I'll go, not the game that I saw. you i didn't watch this guy on isolation like i didn't

watch right his 22 minutes of shift play and i couldn't tell you about it like how can you you only have one set of eyes and also too you're watching a play where the guy might make a play quickly and you might it might not even register with you it happened so fast where you can't go back at the end of the game go there was a play in the second period where he stopped a two-on-one and then they, you know, nobody remembers that. You'd have to go back and watch the game. And that's what I think is, you'd have to go back and watch the game on PVR and then say, oh, with 12.57 to go in the third period, this happened here.

And that's just, you know, that means you don't get a full grasp of the game. So what I'm saying to you is that you see how many followers these people have, how many people are liking their tweets or whatever their story is, and you realize that this is where they're getting their information. Maybe they're okay with the fact that this isn't a journalist or wasn't even at the game, didn't sit in the quote-unquote press box. He saw the same game you saw. He watched it on a big screen or he watched it on his device.

It doesn't matter. His job, though, is to report, give a report card. Brian, if they said to you, Brian, you're now writing the report cards for the athletic. Right. Your job is now to do the report card for every Raptors game the next day on the athletic. What are you going to do? It would take away from my enjoyment of the game. It totally would.

You're working. You're looking down saying another figure 74.5. But to be able to watch a game, and then when there's a break in play or whatever it is, you're making little notes, and now you're putting, those days are gone by the wayside. I don't need your game story. I watched the game. I watched the

entire game, and I watched the post-game show with the clips from Babcock or from what's his name? I can't even, Nick Nurse. So I've got all that information. I don't need that. You can listen to it. It's on Thristler Radio. You just tune in to TSN or the fan.

They pick it up, and you're in the locker room with them. You're right there with them. You're in the locker room. Yeah. Then what do you guys want from your sports media in 2019? Like, what are you looking for? Honesty. Yeah, real talk.

Like, just you're looking for analysis and perspective? Corporate's backing off. Corporate's giving more of a voice to people and letting them be themselves without repercussions. Exactly. I mean, you listen to, again, Mike Willner. I'm going to bring him up again. But Jay's talk, I'm a big fan of Jay's talk

after the games. For me, it was Destination Listening. Which he doesn't always do anymore. Well, he doesn't. What is his role? It's all over the map. I'm going to find out in a couple weeks. I was going to say that.

Don't you feel sorry for him? Wouldn't you like to know what your role is? You're going in every year going, am I the play-by-play guy, the color guy? He's proven himself. Am I the post-game show, the pre-game show? He's not going to bite the hand that feeds him. Guys, Wilner, Mike Wilner,

you know I'm a big fan of Mike Wilner. He's been on many times. He's at TMLX. I consider him a pal, I suppose. But Mike Wilner is a polarizing figure in our sports media landscape, much like Damien Cox, who was recently let go by Sportsnet, or a Glenn Healy, who was let go by Sportsnet recently. He's a long, and dare I say, a Mark Hebbshire. Oh.

Dare I say. I actually think polarizing is another word for interesting. By the way, Brian Burke, I wrote down here, I have Brian Burke greater than Don Cherry, and I want to make a fearless prediction that Brian Burke is going to replace Don Cherry, and you will be amazed. Oh, that's not fearless. There's nothing fearless about that prediction. I'm making the same prediction.

Least fearless prediction you've ever made, Brian. Oh, okay. Come on. I'm not a hockey puck, so I don't know. Not going to happen. You don't think so? No. The Don Cherry mold is done.

Not going to happen again. You're not going to elevate a guy. There was no John Madden after John Madden. done not going to happen again well we're not going to elevate a guy there was no john madden after john madden you're going to come up with a different type of personality that may or may not have a soapbox quote unquote might be part of a panel thing might be someone a little outrageous but you cannot go and say coach's corner is now being replaced by berkey's you know whatever hot dog berkey's hot dog stand whatever the thing is i like the way i like burke i, I like to hear just different opinions. He once attacked me on a plane.

He didn't like what I had to say. Gee, that's a good. He looked pretty menacing. I was sitting and he was standing. And his neck was turning like the cords were coming out. Like Dan Maloney menacing? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah.

He did not know. That's a great story, by the way. He did not like what I had to say. Dan's, yeah, yeah. He did not know. He did not like what I had said. Dan's uncle didn't like that episode. I know. I said it's Mark's experience. What number was that episode, Mark? Do you remember? 401. 401. Okay.

But I'm just saying that this is look, intimidation can take on many forms. Your boss comes to you and says, you know, people are upset with what you said about C. Dogastan or people don't like this kind of thing. It's up to you. You want a paycheck? You're going to go by the rules. Now me, I was the type to go, you know what? I think I'm in a position now where I can say, I don't like this. I don't like going to work every day, being told you have to say this. You can't say that. I don't like having my script looked over going no no no can't do that and by the way mark when you add lib we don't like that because you're

going to say stuff that we don't haven't like a i can't deal this way and by the way make sure you get that promo in there like when i worked for sports net it was all prompt just promo six o'clock sports here's what's coming up on sports net west oilers against the flames and here's a preview like and i'm sitting in toronto and i don't give a shit about the oilers and flames i don't care but i'm working for a national network and in this case it's a regional network because it happened to be going out on sports net west when it's sports net pacific i had to be talking about the freaking canucks and the bc condolences. And the Vancouver Grizzlies for grouching. And the Vancouver Whitecaps.

Like, I'm, ah! I hated that. Okay, so let me ask the question. And I wanted to talk about these polarizing commentators. We like that better than commenters, right? I just want to get that right. Dave Hodge. Dave Hodge.

Okay, this is great. Polarizing. There's a definite, in my perception, there's a definite decline. They're being sanitized and weeded out. Are they losing? We don't know. Damien, I know, is very recent.

But are they losing their jobs because they're polarizing? Or is that an age thing? Okay, why was Wilner not named the Jerry Howarth replacement? He should have been. Right. But why wasn't he? I don't know. Want me to tell you why?

Yeah. Too polarizing. Too many fans passionately hate him because of his polarizing persona on these Jay's Talks. All right. So here's the problem. Problem is you know a lot what's going on. Someone says to you, look, what do you want to do? Do you want to be a commentator?

Do you want to be funny? Do you want to be a play-by-play straight man you want to right and so in wilner's case he knows a lot about baseball so when your job is to do the post-game show and the pre-game show and all that and on the post-game show you're oh they just lost 11-9 and now to go from that to now be straight like jerry howarth could not have gone from being a talk show host to the play-by-play guy. Mark Kepcher wanted that. I wanted to do play-by-play always from the time I was a kid doing road hockey games on the street. But a play-by-play job didn't come along when I got into sportscasting. It wasn't like, oh, by the way, Mark, we've been waiting for you to take over from Joe Bowen or to take over from whatever.

It wasn't there. So how do you get in? Well, you start doing sportscasting. You get a talk show. You're a reporter. So i thought i was a pretty good reporter i thought i was a pretty good journalist i thought i was a pretty good host i thought i was a a pretty good when it came to trivia i was pretty funny all that kind of thing but what i really wanted was to be a a play-by-play guy but what happened was that wasn't available to me mark why would we make you a play-by-play but you're a personality right You're a host. You're a polarizing figure.

You're aggressive when it comes to if people disagree with you. You've got a volatility to you. We can't make you the play-by-play guy ever. So basically, Willner, for doing a good job as the host of Jay's Talk, is being penalized for his success now for any career advancement. Not for his success, but for his... His polarizing... Persona. But he his success, but for his persona. But he had to be that on that show.

Mike Wilner's brand is this. He knows his baseball. He knows his Blue Jays. You better know what you're talking about if you're going to talk to Wilner. Because if you don't, he'll be all over you. Now, what do you want in a play-by-play guy? Do you want a guy who goes,

oh, that was safe at second. What the heck was going on there? Do you want in a play-by-play guy? Do you want a guy who goes, oh, that was safe at second. What the heck was going on there? Do you want your talk show host being your play? Do you want Bob McKellen doing play-by-play? But getting back to Willner, Willner can do that, though. I mean, I've listened to a lot of his play-by-play, and he blew me away. I mean, his voice, his inflection. I mean, the guy, he's got the goods.

No doubt, no doubt. But do you, when you listen to him, say, hey, that's the guy that did the talk show? He's not Vin Scully. Is he a talk show guy? He's not the low-weight Vin Scully. Can he be both? Can you be both? It doesn't matter to me personally.

I would be happily having Wilner on, and I haven't warmed up to the new guy that replaced him from Buffalo. Ben Wagner? Yeah, I just haven't. You haven't even warmed up to his name. It's a whole season. I guess, I guess.

Well, Simmons made a... In fact, I was trying to bring this up with Scott Moore, but you warmed up to his name. It's a whole season. I guess, I guess. I don't know. Well, Simmons made a, in fact, I was trying to bring this up with Scott Moore, but once I said the word Simmons, Scott turned a shade of red I hadn't seen in a guest before. But there's a lack of voice, the voice of Blue Jay.

We always knew it was Tom and Jerry for so long. And then Tom sadly passed away. And then it was Jerry, who I talked to yesterday, by the way, because he's got a new book coming out, and he's still coming on

Toronto Mike. I'm just throwing that out there. But with regards to the polarizing figures like Cox or even a Simmons. Well, Mike, can we talk about the Jays broadcast?

Okay, do the Jays broadcast, but as long as we come back, I just want to get a final thoughts on... Well, it goes back to the polarizing thing because I think... I know he's persona non grata, Greg Zahn.

Okay? And I don't know what happened behind the scenes, but I'm just talking about from a viewer's perspective. Oh, he got me too'd, I think. What do you mean you don't know what happened behind the scenes? He got me too'd. What happened was that enough women stepped forward and said, yeah, Greg Zahn has made me feel very uncomfortable

over the years on occasion. And they looked at it and said, geez, that's a lot of people. And this is not a good time and it would be good PR. And they cut him loose. Right. And rightly so. But I'm saying that I'm talking about strictly his performance on the air. Right. He was like a Don Cherry. He's missed. And he's missed. I'm not

talking about anything behind the scenes. I'm not. I want to make that clear. Because he was honest when it came to, brutally honest when it came to old school versus new school. Exactly. That was his place. And you know what? He played the game and he's entitled to that opinion. You can agree or disagree, but he was polarizing. Exactly. So was his place. And you know what? He played the game, and he's entitled to that opinion. You can agree or disagree, but he was polarizing. Exactly.

So you're talking about the polarizing topic. I missed that because it had a domino effect. Joe Siddle was good next on the air. Maybe him and Ben Wagner should have remained. I know Ben Wagner was new, but Joe should have remained. Instead of a bland voice on the air. He was too handsome for radio. Right.

Maybe he should have stayed. And what did they replace him with? Another safe voice on the air. He was too handsome for radio. Right. Maybe he should have stayed. And what did they replace him with? Another safe pick on the air. And Zahn, whatever you wanted to say about him, I found his roast on the weekend. I enjoyed the pregame show. I have no reason to view into the pregame show anymore. Because it's Jamie Campbell and his doppelganger.

But we must be the minority, right? Because everybody seems... For example, when Glenn Healy was let go, I saw on Twitter, I know it's a vocal minority, I suppose, but there were celebrations. Oh, he was awful. I hated him.

He's gone. The witch is dead. Yay. And all I could think, I'm the only one out here thinking he was interesting. He said something. I like people, as you know, real talk,

I like people who say something. But did you tweet that, though, Mike? Did you say, hey? I'm sure I did. See, that's the other thing too. If someone is happy that someone got fired, they're way more likely to go, yay, than someone to go, hey, you know what? I don't like that firing.

I'm going to miss Glenn. But it goes back to my question. Why is Damien Cox no longer on the air? Is it strictly because of his polarizing views? Is he making too much money? Is it the fact that when he was hired? Is he making too much money? Is it the fact that when he was hired, and think about this in any business,

when you get a new hire who's the chief bottle washer, they want their own people. So when Damien Cox was hired, and I don't know who hired him, is that executive still at sports? And the answer is no. Because it was either Scott Moore or Don Collins or a combination of the two, or three or four. Well, he was honking at Canada, right? Keith Pelley or whatever it was.

Scott Moore. Right. And then once that guy is gone, that's your protector. I mean, once your boss is out and a new boss comes in, the new boss says, oh, yeah, your contract is up and you weren't one of my guys. Well, he had a soft landing on primetime sports, right? So he comes off of Hawking Night and he has a soft landing, co-host of Bob McCown. And again, I think Damien Cox, when I played the clip of Scott Moore talking about this, Damien nodded and said, that's about right.

So Damien has concurred that there was basically a falling out between Damien Cox and Bob McCowan, which resulted in... That's not surprising. Well, if you heard them on the air, you could tell there were times where... It didn't work. The chemistry was... Where one of them, you could tell one was looking at the other going, oh, God. But Stephen Brunt had a fallout too, and he didn't lose his job. Right. Well, he came back. The chemistry was not there. Where you were one of them, you could tell. One was looking at the other going, oh, God. But Stephen Brunt had a follow, too.

Yes. He didn't lose his job. Right. Well, he came back. Yeah, you're right. Yeah. So it sounds like- Oh, he got transferred to the morning show.

Maybe Mark could probably speak to this. It sounds like, from all accounts, that Bob McCown is a tough guy to work for slash with. He's a tough guy to work for. Right, Mark? You work for him. Look- Is he on your Christmas card list? What's going on?

Well, no, that's got nothing to do with it. When I worked for him, I was a young broadcaster. He gave me an opportunity. I bugged the hell out of him to get a job. I was working in Niagara Falls at the time, and I wanted to work back in Toronto. And I love the Leafs, and I love the Blue Jays, and I love the Argos,

and I was a Toronto guy through and through. And he was the only sportscaster or the only talk show host that had like he had a couple of hours every night to talk sports. I was his producer. He was great. I mean, he was fantastic because he wanted to build his brand too

and I was a producer and he could relax and do stuff and if he didn't know the answer to something, I could go through his earpiece and go, oh, it's Nate Archibald. You know what I mean? If he wasn't up on his hockey like I was or there were certain things

that I knew that he might not have, he had someone who could feed him information. But man, the guy knew his stuff and he knew how to get an audience. He knew how to get people riled up and he was a good, and still is, he asked good questions. He had interesting guests. And if he didn't have a good guest, he was great with callers. He got a guy who was mad. If you got a guy who was upset

yeah he would play that guy like you like like a like a fish on the end of your hook man like let him go a little let him break water a bit let him run with it a little bit right that kind of a thing and then reel him in just at the right time and say yeah you know what boom so it was a good conversation it would be like sitting there going man i wish i could talk sports with my friends like this i wish i could get into a conversation. That's what sports fans. Anyone that tells me they're a diehard sports fan and they're not passionate and I don't hear that, you're not a diehard fan. You're just a follower.

Yep. Diehard fan gets up and goes, what the hell is going on here? Cheers loudly when his team wins. Gets upset when they lose. Wants to trade a player if the player's bad. That's a die-hard fan. There's passion. If I don't hear that passion in the person's voice,

then to me, I don't want to listen to them. The documentary that Nelson Millman was heavily interviewed in at the time with McCowan, it was about an hour or so, I don't know if you guys saw it, it was phenomenally done. What was it about? It was just a documentary on Bob and his whole

25th anniversary. Bob's company. Bob's company. Fadoo. Fadoo Productions. Did a story on Bob McCown. They interviewed his mom. That's all you have to see. They interviewed his mom. His mom was great. I knew about this all back in the day. Bob's background is the most interesting background. It is.

We've got to get him in here. He only does Robbers. Robbers, yes. He only does Rogers property. I know what it is. You know what? He's reached the point

in his career where he can do whatever he wants or not whatever he wants. Nobody lasts 40-odd years in this business. So Cox had this

off-lane in a PTS and then when he's removed from there, I think essentially it might have come down to there was nothing for him to do, maybe. Maybe where do you put him?

Oh, the tennis, I'm going to miss him a lot, I have to say. That's only two weeks a year. It's a very minimal amount of time for Davis Cup and also for the Rogers Cup. It's not a big deal, but I will miss him. I enjoyed that aspect of his broadcasting. So,

personally, speaking for myself, I just want to say, well, two things. One is, for my money, the best anything in Toronto sports media history is Bert Randolph Sugar talking to Bob McCowan and Stephen Brunt. The best. Give me McCowan and Brunt, right? I'm sorry, but I could just

just, you know, Bert's no longer with us. This can never happen again. Greatest storyteller ever on PTS, without a doubt. And I don't even care about boxing. That's the best part. I'm sort of like 1236 loving Hebsey doubt. And I don't even care about boxing. That's the best part. I'm sort of like 1236 loving Hebsey on sports. I don't care about boxing particularly, except when Razor Ruddock was taking on Mike Tyson. I was into it back then.

We got robbed right there, right, buddy? But, like, oh my god. And Brunt knows his boxing. And this is something, I never adapt, this is a quick aside, but UFC, I can't watch UFC. Everybody loves it. I've never watched 10 seconds of it myself. But I'll watch

a big boxing match, and they're both brutal. In fact, you can argue the boxing's more brutal. Punching in the head over and over again. In Steven's UFC, they call it off right away, right? When someone's noticeably hurt. Yeah, there's probably some study out there that'll prove to me it's so far. But just

aside that, there's something romantic about boxing. There's something there. I don't know. But when B decide that there's something romantic about boxing. There's something there. I don't know. But when Burt Randolph's talking to Bobcat and Brunt, that was the best. He is missed.

And secondly, these polarizing figures we're just referring to. So personally, I miss them. I think it's bad that they're being weeded out. There's a reason

Hebsey's on a podcast now instead of right now. Doesn't it sound like that? Yeah, because you should be going against Bobcat on 1050. Outside of Hepsi, who would you say is a young polarizing voice on the air in Toronto? They don't can you be.

They don't grow up like that anymore. Yeah, they just don't make them anymore. That's what's concerning. They're not being developed. Everyone's too eager to get a job and then keep it. This is priority one. Whatever you thought about them, you're right. Cox, Healy, Al Strachan, Marty York.

Oh, Marty York. I don't know. Whatever. That's a whole different story. Whatever, but they were polarizing, whatever you felt about them. Who's in their 20s or 30s that's doing that? Not, because the way they're being raised now

in today's game is if you want to keep your job, just like Mark said, you've got to serve the masters. So it's too bad. So you can't work in the business, bottom line. You have to do it on your own independently. You've got to play the game. You've got to play their game. McCowan is probably one of the last ones,

and I don't know if you'd call him polarizing. I don't know. No, I would never think of Bob as polarizing. Really? Really? You would never think of him? No, no. He's curmudgeonly.

Is that polarizing? People don't like him. No, because it's all an act. It's a show. You can tell. I mean, he doesn't even believe half the things he says anyway. It's all for debate. really you never no he's curmudgeonly is that polarizing like people don't like him no because it's all an act it's a show you can tell I mean he doesn't even believe half the things he says anyway

it's all for debate but could Faisal Khamisa get away with that if Faisal Khamisa I'm just throwing a young name out there and I'm not going to call him Faisal like I did once

if Faisal Khamisa were to be like do the shtick that Bob McCowan does I think we would all jump on him for being condescending, arrogant, rude. Like, who is this kid?

It's a different era. It's a different era. Or Ben Ennis. Yeah, well, Ben Ennis. First of all, anything that McAllen does now is grandfathered in, if you want to call it that. Like Don Cherry. Don Cherry is the same thing.

You're talking about things were different. You developed your brand. You had a following because of what you said and the way you said it. Yeah, you know, was he tempered when Rodgers, did they say to him, hey, mom, you know, I'm pretty sure he realized what the hell was going on. Sure he did. Has he tempered his comments? Of course.

But in some ways, he's better than he was before because he has all this experience of 40 years on the air. So when he says, look, I remember this guy did this. There's something to be said about experience. This happened before. I remember this happened, whatever. It didn't matter if it happened in the 70s, 80s, 90s, early 2000s. It happened.

He remembered it. He brings it up for perspective. That's the difference. It's that someone that's young cannot give the same perspective if they're talking to other young people only then it's easy to say well it happened before i was born it's a natural but if you want to serve the masses yeah you've got to you got to find that like who am i talking to is it a 35 year old male with two kids uh suburban and he watches the Leaf game or the Raptor game

whenever they're on TV and goes, I don't know. But you've got to serve the masses. I'll agree. You've got to know a lot about a little or a little about a lot. But you've got to know something so that someone doesn't, for example, Milan. If I say, man, that quarterback for Clemson, that freshman, like I'm not a big college football fan. I don't mean I'm not a Ohio State or Michigan or whatever. I don't follow the teams like some of these people do.

But I appreciate a good game, and I appreciate a good athlete, no matter what the sport is. If you were to say to me, you've got to watch this kid. You've never seen a 19-year-old throw a ball like this. I was interested. The fact that they beat Alabama, that was number one ranked. But that was a high-stakes game. With Saban in the championship game, sure, I'd be interested in stuff like that.

But if it's presented to me in such a way like that as opposed to, hey, listen, remember the last time Alabama and Clemson played and then 2007 BC as well? No. Give it to me now. What's exciting about it now? Why did I want to watch that? Because it's two great teams and it's at least one.

Both quarterbacks are exciting and electrifying, and it's the two best. I don't care what the sport is. It's high stakes. It's high stakes. I'll watch anything with high stakes. I'll agree, Hepsi, that from an experience perspective, he's for sure. That makes a broadcaster.

That makes anyone better with experience, but I'll respectfully disagree. I don't think he's better today than he was before. I agree with you. I think he's the master. He's a jack of all trades and master of none. He's a generalist when it comes to sports. But to me, it's been for a number of years.

I don't think he's engaged. I think he was a little bit involved. So why was he so? What was it about him? Was it his side? Was it the people he was working with? What was it when McCown was in his absolute prime? I think when McCown was on his absolute prime,

and I remember talking with Mike about the whole Unel Escobar, the whole slur thing. Oh, yeah. Remember? And I thought that was the homophobic slur. And I thought that was probably him. And I know that wasn't that long ago, but it was a number of years ago.

I thought that's when he was at his best, when there was a major sports issue in Toronto. He took a side. He took a side. He was eloquent. And he asked the guests the tough questions. I remember John Farrell and Alex Anthopoulos and Paul Beeston. I know he's got a relationship with them. They the guests the tough questions. I remember John Farrell and Alex Anthopoulos and Paul Beeston. I know he's got a relationship with them.

They were on the hot seat. And I couldn't get that anywhere else on TSN or anywhere else in print. It's an edge, I think, that he had and it's not there anymore. Spark. You're right about that. I agree. He delivered the real talk. Because he was the first guy I listened to back when they're talking about sports days. That was my introduction

to sports, to sports radio on the Gretzky trade in the 80s. That's my generation. That's what I grew up with. Well, that's what a great commentator does. When a big story comes along, they take a side. I'll give you the best example. Early on when I was producing the show, Don Murdoch of the New York Rangers was the first player caught with cocaine. And not an insignificant amount.

This is about 1978 or 79. And McCowan reads the story and he flips this guy should be suspended for cocaine like any didn't matter marijuana cocaine you're talking in the 70s yeah suspended for life never mind the fact that all nhl half of them were alcoholics for gosh sakes they drank drank drank like you like the cows didn't matter alcohol was legal well i tell you this right now and i remember having this argument with him. He was outrageous on the air. Any guy that does drugs, he took a stand and he never wavered from that stand.

And let me tell you right now, a lot of people were like really upset, really upset. He never wavered from it. This is what he believed, right? I want to see a hockey player that's taking drugs the cocaine get rid of him get him out and then when the steroid thing came along and all that same thing he took a real hard line now i haven't listened to him enough to know if it's got the hard line with barry bonds and roger clemens thing but i don't tell you right now you go back he never flip-flopped right he took a hard line now had that been a toronto player and it happened to

be a rogers situation i couldn't tell you but if it was if they found out that when roger clemens was with the jays and all he bob i guarantee you he would have said man this guy here has been cheating us and he would have stuck with that and that's what i want i want someone that's consistent that has an opinion doesn't waver from the opinion can be swayed maybe he can evolve his opinion can say you know here's what i thought about bonds and clemens years ago but now i've softened my thing but you never say never but also you stick by your guns those are the honest people not someone who goes wait didn't i just hear this guy say the exact opposite about john tavaris and now he's oh man i wonder what happened i wonder if someone got to him right got in his ear and said, hey, you know what?

You better lay off of that thing there because we don't like the way you're talking about Tavares and your employee of this company and da-da-da. Now, gentlemen, 95 minutes in, I need to bring up a point to segue into the diversity issue I want to talk about. But let's talk about Dave Hodge for a moment. So Dave Hodge is currently not broadcasting anywhere. We saw him for a moment on Hockey Day in Canada. Nice to see him. Nice jackets.

He's thinking about a podcast, but right now there is no mainstream media gig for Dave Hodge. I have two thoughts on this. One is how has Rogers not hired him yet? Look at the perspective and experience and the integrity this man has

in hockey. How come he hasn't been hired by rogers yet and then right away i think wait a minute if you were gonna hire someone else for rogers to cover hockey would you hire another white man okay like it all we do is crap on these guys for hiring white guys to cover sports like so in my own mind, in my own shower thoughts when I'm on a bike ride or whatever, I have an argument of myself. Dave Hodge is great. He should have a role.

Wait a minute. What are we doing hiring another 60-something-year-old white guy? Right, because dark-skinned people don't listen to what white people have to say ever, right? Well, that's why I'm... I mean, that's just ridiculous.

Well, let's hear it. What did you just say, Mark? Let's just hear it. Let's hear it now. That's just the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard in my life. Why is it ridiculous, Mark? Because I'm... I mean, that's just ridiculous. Well, let's... What did you just say, Mark? Let's just hear it. Let's hear it now. That's just the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard in my life. Why is it ridiculous, Mark? Because I'm listening to someone.

I'm not thinking, oh, you know, the color of their skin or whatever. You don't think that shapes their perspective? I got to tell you something, man. I'm really upset by this. This bothers me a lot. Well, let's hear it.

Well, listen, like when I was working at Global, had someone come along and say, listen, Mark, I'm really sorry about that, but, you know, we have to promote a person of color and they're going to take your place because it's not reflective of our viewing audience, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. I mean, for years, CFTO was as white bread as they come. And then very quickly, within a short period of time, they started looking more like city TV.

Like that was something that was planned that i'm sure they went white guy white guy white guy white guy white guy white guy okay so there's eight and two of them have got to go which two so and and if you're going to promote someone who wasn't as good as that white person because of their color or their gender or the fact that they had a disability or an ageism thing that's a lot going against it you have to look at the person and say is this the best person for the job but who's looking to say that well that's probably a white guy right well i don't know but all i know is this is that when a certain person was hired by a certain sports network that had no business being on the air, no business,

no experience and no business. And you looked and said, oh, I know why they hired that person. And you know what? There's a million examples. You went, oh, I guess. We're all guessing in our heads right now. I guess they didn't hire that person because of their ability or knowledge. They hired that person because of their gender, color, disability, age. We have a big problem in the NFL right now

because there's, I think, only two black coaches right now. Correct. 70% of the players are black. Right, exactly. And the fact that they have these rules now where they have to actually interview someone, you know, a visible minority of color

or whatever else, whatever they call it. Yeah, you have to consider a candidate of color. Yeah, they interview them and they don't hire them. No, but the difference is this. They encourage, you have to consider a candidate. Yeah, they interview them and they don't hire them. No, but the difference is this. They encourage. You have to encourage it. Mike, did not on one of your shows, one of the female journalists say,

we are constantly being asked by producers, find us women. Do you have friends, females? Please, we need them in the sports broadcasting business. Who was that, Rachel Brady? Christina Rutherford. Now, this is true. What's happening is no one is coming up to me saying, hey, Mark, we need them in the sports broadcasting business. Christina Rutherford. Now, this is true. What's happening is no one is coming up to me saying,

hey, Mark, they're saying, do you know of any women, young women that want to be sportscasters? Well, not really. You don't? Well, can you find someone? Even if they're not heavy into sports, even if they were just athletes, they played college soccer or basketball or hockey,

can you get them to come? We want to interview them. We'll train them, but we need women. I was just going to say, I think Ashley Docking hit the point on Monday, and I think she made a great point. I think what you do, Mark, takes a lot of skill and talent, and I think

Ashley brought that up. I think she made a good point in the sense that we forget that sometimes because we're all used to talking sports at the bar and all that. But it's a whole different ballgame when you're on the air from a voice, a delivery perspective,

entertainment, and knowledge. And it's hard. It's a small group of people. And it got back to me thinking, I'm thinking of it from a business perspective because we're in the watch

and jewelry repair industry. And hiring qualified watch technicians or jewelers is really difficult and it got me thinking what scott moore said on the air that it's good business and why is it good business not just because you're opening yourself up to a larger demographic potentially that will listen to your product or watch your product but it also increases the supply of broadcasters that are out there and when there's a bigger supply of broadcasters out are out there. And when there's a bigger supply of broadcasters out there, it's great for management because then you can

supply and demand. You can bring down the pay. There's no more stars. The Don Cherry days are over. It's now the brand, the Sportsnet brand or the TSN brand, they're going to only let you become as big as they want you to be. Well, they've fought that for years.

That came from ESPN where they were in a position in the 80s where Chris Berman, Dan Patrick, Keith Olbermann. They were bigger than the network. Superstars. And what happened was ESPN consciously said, we can't allow this to happen. It had already gotten too big.

Dick Vitale. It had already gotten so big, these personalities, that they had to. So from that point forward, everyone they hired was vanilla. Whether they were black, white, didn't matter. It was like, you guys, we are not, there are no superstars in broadcasting.

That explains the decline of the polarizing figure. Correct. Vanilla, great word for it. Correct. Blend. What's, great word for it. Correct. Blend. Blend, okay, what's a better word for it?

You're right. When you're talking about people of color, vanilla's not the best word for it. I mean, did you not want to listen? If you didn't know that John Madden was white, let's say you'd never seen him on television, didn't know anything about him, and you listened, you went, I like this guy.

There's something about him, right? He's a football guy, and bang, boom. That's the thing. But's something about him, right? He's a football guy and bang, boom. That's the thing. But now it was like, well, he's an old white guy and he's almost 80. And Pat Summerall, we got to take them because we had seen these guys. We had seen these guys.

To me, if you hear somebody and they sound great and it doesn't matter what the color or gender, it doesn't matter. I think Mike had a good point, and Brian brought up a good point about the coaches. The issue, yes, there is an issue of coaches. It's not the coaches that's the issue. It's what color are the CEOs,

the general managers, and the owners. I believe there's only, I believe the Jacksonville Jaguars owner, the Kahn family, is the only visible minority in the NFL that owns a team. And that's the issue. And Scott Moore talked about it,

is that when you're, Scott, I don't want to bring, you know, put Scott Moore on the spot, but you're going to hire someone who you're comfortable with and who looks like you. Stop hiring yourself was the advice.

Stop hiring yourself. And I think that it's not, I don't, I'm a visible minority and I don't think it's an issue of, I agree, I want to listen to the best voice, but I think it's that opportunity or the lack of opportunity being given. I think that's a little bit of the issue. And I agree, I want to listen to the best voice, but I think it's that opportunity or the lack of opportunity

being given, I think that's a little bit of the issue. And I think when you talk about diversity, there's so many different types of diversity. I think it was broached on your diversity show, Mike. It's not just women and colored, or people of color, you know. Sexual orientation.

Sexual orientation. There's native, you know, I think that was brought up. Yeah, indigenous. Indigenous. So there's so many different and where do you, you know, it's just it's just a lack of opportunities, I think, being given to do a job that's really difficult. So do you care, Brian, if the daytime lineup at the Fan 590 is all white guys? Like, does that matter to you? It's funny because I never really thought about it consciously until that picture came up.

That picture was a mistake. You're right. Milan asked that question of Scott Moore. And as Elvis told me recently at the Festivus episode, Scott never answered that question. Does he regret that photo coming out? It doesn't matter to me what color. It can be purple.

It doesn't matter. I just want to be entertained and informed at the same time. The balance is always shifting, you know, depending on what I'm listening to. And I adapt to it. But yeah, it doesn't make a difference to me. It can be 10 black people talking, or it doesn't matter to me.

It never has. How often have you said to yourself, I don't know, I can't listen to this person, or I'm, you know, there's something about the person that just that you don't think that they deserve to be in that position. You think someone else should be in that position you think someone else should be there so you're looking going all right and then their question is and i hate doing this how did this person get the job do you look at someone and say they're not that

good let's say they're i have a question all the time how does this person get the job and then in your mind you go right well if they're a person of color or they're a female or whatever shouldn't do they like we said before do they have to be better they have to know more than the white guy who the white ceo is going to hire and i think the answer is yeah i think you got to be exceptionally good and then have the opportunity to prove yourself and they're not getting the opportunity right i saw faisal kameezah for the time. All he did was updates on Sportsnet 360. If I didn't watch it, I wouldn't know. He was strictly an update guy.

And then I saw him on the desk. Then I saw him doing interviews. Then I saw him doing some one-on-one basketball stuff. He did a lot of Tim and Sid stuff too. Yeah, yeah, all that stuff. Then he filled in, that's exactly right, he filled in Donovan Bennett. So you're right.

Arash Madani. I love Donovan Bennett. Arash Madani. When you see young people in different, like he's the beat reporter, then you see him doing talk show and you go, oh, that's the opportunity you're talking about. Exactly.

They get pigeonholed. Like, for example, Farhan Lalji, I've known for years. I mean, they run clips of him from 30 years ago when he's doing interviews on TSN, right? He was strictly a reporter guy. I never, and then I heard him on radio and went, he's good, man.

You're right. Like, Sunil Joshi. I was just about to say. Yeah, but like, I've watched him radio and went, he's good, man. You're right. Like Sunil Joshi. I was just about to say. Yeah, but like I've watched him for years, you know, on Late Night Sports and all that. He never had the opportunities, I don't think,

to really prove himself. And it's really unfortunate because he was, from what I saw, he had the goods. One of your commenters made the point, I think, on your message board, Mike,

that it's just these positions that they're getting are just the equivalent. I think Mark and Brian hit the nail on the head. Farhan Lalji and Sunil Joshi. What do we know about these people? Nothing.

That's right. Other than just reading off a teleprompter. I'm not saying that they can't do more. They just haven't been given the opportunity maybe to do more. I just want a question for Mark. Do you think you've ever lost a position? Oh, I know I have.

Okay. Two. Two of them. What was the language? Can we guess what they gave you? Oh, I know I have. Okay. Well, two. Two of them. What was the language? Can we guess what they gave you that you didn't get it? They didn't, you see. Yeah, but they would never tell you that.

No, they would never tell you. Just because you weren't a female or someone of color. Correct. Okay. No, I think, well, let's put it this way. I'm sure one of them was that I wasn't a female,

but also the age thing. And now that I think about it, I'm like, well, at what point do you say, well, someone is getting old. And I think the ageism might be the biggest. agree we look at ageism and go like say listen man that's more experience you're more experienced tied to the financial aspect of it i think oh yeah for sure because once you've reached a certain step like listen i'll be honest with you right now if someone's came along and said look you know we want you to do this radio show or whatever this is what we pay for middays or evenings or

whatever i would say thanks anyway but i don't need the money that badly to take this position it's not going to pay it's not going to pay unless they said well we know you have all this experience and this is what's commensurate with what your experience is that's not the way they're not looking to hire so like dave hodge you're're not going, you know what? We got $400,000, $500,000, $600,000 to throw around, so let's get Dave Hodge. But let me,

I tell you this right now, Dave Hodge is not going to go and work for $60,000 for some mainstream media. Do you know that Pat Marsden, I wrote this down because I was amazed when I saw this

doing some research, he made $300,000 a year in 2004. Sure. That's incredible. No, it's not. No, it's not. Millman says he saved the, wait, what year? $300,000 a year back in 2004. Sure. That's incredible. But Millman says he saved the, wait, what year?

$300,000 a year back in 2004. Sure. Morning radio. Because he allegedly saved the network. But it was 94, wasn't it? Am I off a decade here? No, 2004. Okay.

He was hired in 96 and he teamed with Derringer and he left for Q107. And then Landry. And then he was replaced with Landry. Because Millman does credit him with saving the network. But that's just it. You wanted a big name guy. Pat Marzen had worked in television on CFT. They flew him in, remember? Made good money. From Florida.

I saw him on the plane. I'd see him on a Friday flight. He'd be flying in on Friday and he'd done a show. But the difference is this. He was a big name. He was. He was a big, big name and a television star for many, many years. CFL games, the sports hot seat, the evening sports on CFTO. Hundreds

of thousands of listeners. A well-known commodity who knew his sports. But Mark, how can, let's use Mike Richards as an example. He was one of the most sought-after guys just a few years ago. Who was? Mike Richards. According to who? I don't know one person. I like Mike Richards. Okay. I don't know one person that went, damn it.

Radio's just not the same without Mike Richards. Hey, Richards and Rue Mack. Oh, sorry. That's Jim Richards. Richards and name all the guys that Mike Richards worked with. I think I know where Milan's coming from. Richards and Romanoff. He was big in Calgary. No, no, no. You got this wrong. He was on a morning show in Toronto on 1050 with Paul Romanuk.

Right. But there was a bidding war, allegedly. Crickets! Crickets. From Calgary, he came to Toronto. The fan wanted him, from what I'm reading, okay? I don't know the behind the scenes, but the fan wanted him and TSN wanted him. There was a bidding war.

This was just a few years ago. This is whenever TSN radio started. To four years. You can't remember when that was. A few years. Yeah, to just a few years later. But it was a decade ago. And now he's just on a few years ago. This is whenever TSN radio started. To four years, yeah, a few years, yeah, to just a few years later and now he's just on a,

you know. I know what you're saying. He's on a network that probably isn't paying him much money. In a span of just a few years, it doesn't make sense. You can fall off a cliff

in this business. Well, where's Andrew Crystal today? Does anybody know? That's a good question. Is he on Sirius Radio? Is he? Sirius XM?

I didn't even know. I thought he was in the Witness Protection Program. I had no idea. No, he's a good question. Is he on Sirius Radio? Is he? Sirius XM? I didn't even know. I thought he was in the Witness Protection Program. I had no idea. No, he's a neighbor of mine, actually. Okay, well, I know he was the big hire, right? Well, if you would have asked me, I would have told you about Andrew Crystal. I just threw it out there.

Ashley had a good line. I think Mark may concur. She talked about broadcasting that you either have to know someone or you got to be phenomenal at it. But that's actually all industries, right? I think that's a lot of industries. I've been in a lot of industries where the guy who got hired

used to work with this guy 15 years ago. Oh, sure. True. I see that all the time in software. But have we evolved, though? Because I'm thinking back when Jody Vance, I read up on this this morning, and it was really fascinating to me, when they had the glass table to show off her legs.

And that was like a Scott Moore thing. It's true. And that's what happened back then. The fuzzy slippers before that, when she did the morning show, she used to sit there with fuzzy slippers on on the Sportsnet morning show. Is that still used in today?

I mean, in terms of... That's the Mary Hart move, by the way. It is, absolutely. The legs aren't sure for like $12 million. Brian, are you asking if people are more likely to watch a show if... That 18 to 35 male demographic. if people are more likely to watch a show if... That 18 to 35 male demographic. Males are more likely to watch a show

if there's some sexual component to it? Of course. Do you think so? Absolutely. 100%? Yeah, 100%. Okay. Now, let me ask you a question.

If female viewers, and there are a lot of them, I know a lot of women that enjoy and watch quite often with their boyfriends or husbands or even with their girlfriends or just themselves. We'll also watch the late night sports or the sports highlight shows or whatever. What do you think they're looking for from a physical standpoint? On the male host you're talking about? You tell me.

You tell me. Does a female go, I really like watching this because I like the suits that Ken Reed wears or I like Ivanka's hair. Or Jay and Dan are hot. Or Jay and Dan are going, Or Jay and Dan are good. Actually, Dan wore the same suit for like 30 days in a row. What I'm saying to you is that what attracts you, do you think that it's like, look,

we may get these people, we may not, but if we've got someone that's more attractive than the other station has on at the same time. I'm not female, Mark. How can I answer that? I can answer. I'm very comfortable with my heterosexuality. You asked the question. I believe this to be true, and again, I recognize handsome guys. Like, I'll watch Mad Men

and I'll say to my wife, God damn, that Don Draper is a handsome man. Like, I'm totally... I said that to my wife too. You're comfortable

with your sexuality as am I. I totally recognize handsome guys all the time. Even sexy guys, I'll be like, that guy's sexy.

Like, it doesn't mean I'm comfortable with sexuality. But if you're, if that's your, if that's, if you say, well, I watch because a certain person's sexy, if'm that person i'm gonna go oh i don't want you

to watch because of that i don't want you i want you to watch because of my knowledge of sports i'm not doing a fashion show here on both though i'm doing and there you and that's exactly it so what i'm looking for yeah is different from what you're looking for if i may raise my hand just say that uh i've noticed with we'll call them presenters some of them are journalists we have this debate all the time. But people presenting sports, I've noticed that when you're male, you can be, I'll be saying it, schlubby, okay? You can be a schlubby guy.

And it can run down a list. I don't want to insult anybody. Schlubby, you mean unkempt? You're not, no Don Draper, let's put it that way. Unkempt. Not even a Milan, you dressed up for this. Thank you. You thought this was a video.

An unattractive visual. Right. There are unattractive guys presenting sports every day. There are? There are. I think they're good-looking guys. Well, they're put on some makeup

and they've dressed in a nice suit but you can put lipstick on. Well, that helps in presenting, doesn't it? It's a visual medium. Right. But when it comes to females, they're all models.

All of them. That's true. 100% of them. We don't even have that one outlier you can point to and say, oh, there's a schlubby-looking female presenting sports. I'll give you an example. Norma Wick, who used to cover the Raptors in Game Reporter, very talented and all that, and she was driven out of the industry. And that was the article I read this morning and doing my research on it. Is Norma the fabulous sports babe?

No. No, no. This is going back Raptors for a while. She was an in-game kind of host and she came from the West Coast. You're saying she's sloppy. She'll be looking. No, no. She's an attractive woman, but she was an age thing. Ageism. And that's what happened to her. She was driven

out. You're sure about that? That's what she wrote about in the article. That's her perspective. Well, Christine, not sports media, but Christine Bentley said, yeah, I got pushed out because I reached a certain age and it was time to go

and she got tapped on the shoulder. I hear that all the time. Yeah, I got that tapped. Ann Marszkowski. Happens. He got it. His legs weren't going to know.

No, but if you didn't see it happening, then you were blind. If you honestly thought, if anyone honestly thinks that they're going to be in this, oh yeah, so I'm in my 56,

come on. Yeah. Take a look at the industry. Take a look at all industries. Hey, I'm a real estate agent. Right. Once you reach a certain age, oh, that's different in my 56. Come on. Yeah. Take a look at the industry. Take a look at all industries. Hey, I'm a real estate agent. Right. Once you reach a certain age, oh, that's different. Once you reach a certain age in the media, especially the visual media, it doesn't matter, man.

So one day Jennifer Hedger or one of the, Carolyn Cameron is going to get that tap too. Well, I don't know. All I know is that Don Cherry is different because that's a one. It's a totally different thing, and he's a superstar. The question is this. If any of these people were taken off the air, would there be a hue and cry to have them back on the air? It happened with Aaron Davis and radio.

Ron McLean. Ron McLean, definitely. That was as much bring Ron back as get rid of Strombo. So, you know, it's sort of that. If Duffy said no. Yeah, but I'm just saying to you that, you know, everyone's got their reasons for things, i'm just saying to you that you know everyone's got their reasons for things and if someone said to you you know what milan it's been a good run man it's been a good run year whatever age it is it's been 20 odd years top of your game here's what's

going on in the world people are looking for people in their 20s and 30s you're in your 50s or 60s this is the way it is you You either accept it, you go down kicking and screaming, but if you accept it, you know, you had to have planned. You had to have seen other people around you go, hmm, if they got bounced. Oh, like Joe Tilly. If that person went and that person went, am I

that much better than them? Am I safe? And anyone who thinks that their job is that safe, unless you're a McCowan or a Don Cherry, you're going to be going, man, I don't know. If you're turning 35 and you're a female and someone says, ooh, look at that 23-year-old that's trying to get a job or look at that. And you're going, wow, that's a decade younger. If you're in your 40s and you look at someone in their 20s, you're freaking out. You're freaking out.

You're going for Botox. You're going for eye surgery. You're going to the droopy lids. Hazel May is an exception. You're going for Botox. You're going for eye surgery. You're going to the droopy lids. Hazel May is an exception. You're going through all that type of stuff. But Hazel May is more, Hazel May is baseball season. You don't see Hazel May 12 months of the year on the air. She's not on the 6 o'clock sports every night.

I don't believe. Is she doing that? No. Right? So she's doing the Blue Jay stuff, which means she's seasonal. Shai Davidi is seasonal. Barry Davis was seasonal. The reporter for the Leafs

that does on Sportsnet, I can't think of her name now. What about Barry Davis? Remember when she bounced him off and chose her in a way? Yeah, but the girl that's doing the Leaf broadcast, the reporter,

is going to be seasonal. Once the Leaf season is over, you won't see her for the summer and probably for three or four months. So that's different than someone that's on every day, every day. You know, if Rod Smith, what they do is after CFL season's over, they move him to the desk.

This is like the Rod Smith formula. And there's so much here. I'm going to, one quick answer before, because we've got to move on. I see we're going to go past the two hour mark. Oh, yeah. No one's going to stop. No one's going to listen after this. That's it for me.

You know, I can't stop. I can't stop and listen to it. I'm running out of hard drive space. Tomorrow, God forbid, you're running out of hard drive space. Tomorrow, God forbid, you're running out of hard drive space. Quick answer here. Quick answer here. Should Canadian sports media

executives do a better job of diversifying their on-air, either in radio and television, on-air talent? Should they do a better job? I'm going to say yes. I think as best as possible. It's going to say yes. I think as best as possible. It's going to take years because I think we're just so behind it.

The old guard has to die off, right? Literally? It should reflect the city you're in. And this is one of the most diverse cities in the world. Wait a second though, Milan. You're talking about two different things. Are we talking about the network television of Sportsnet and TSN, which are network national broadcasts? Or are you talking about two different things are we talking about the network television uh of sports net and

tsn which are network national broadcasts are you talking about a local regional cfto sports city tv sports or fan 590 raps remember even raptor games and blue jay games and leaf games even though the city is toronto right it's a national network so is that indicative of what Canadians look like coast to coast? If that's the case, then they're okay. But if you are looking at it from the city of Toronto, I agree 100%. But these aren't local broadcasters. But the Fan 590 is a local broadcaster. But that's radio.

But it's still... Once you put the picture out... The opinions expressed are perspectives by the speaker, and the color of your skin plays a role in the perspective you deliver. The majority of your sponsors are still based in this city over here. Correct. And I think the money is here. But have these points out. In Toronto, I think something like half of this city

is not white. Okay, Toronto. But Canada, it's far smaller percentage. It won't change until Scott Moore is replaced by, like I talked about by a person of color. I agree. It's just human nature.

Look at Masai Ujiri. You didn't say Masai Ujiri is a black man from Africa. The guy was the right guy for the job. We got him from Denver. He was the right guy for the job. However, once he was installed in his position, his perspective was completely different than a Tim Lai wiki

or any white guy. And that has had a trickle-down effect. Exactly. And you guys brought up a good point. It's not going... Hugh Burrell being replaced by someone with all respect to Mr. Burrell. Like Ashley Dawking. With Ashley Dawking or someone of color is nothing. I'm talking about until you get into the boardroom,

that's when the changes will occur. Well, when Jeff Blair takes over for Bobcat, somebody's going to have to get that spot. Oh, no, please don't do that. That's my prediction. That's not going to happen. Just speculation. Now, I want to ask about media critics.

Yes, I'm excited. This is what I want to talk about. We're going to give you the first shot at this. So I've had Chris Zeljkovic on. Bill Houston, name some of them. Well, one thing, I really miss Chris Zeljkovic for one thing. He would have all the ratings. He would talk about it.

He would review the weekend in terms of what Mark does, in essence, in a different respect. And I would just eat that up like chocolate cake. I mean, it was unbelievable. And I wrote a quote here that Chris said when he was let go. He said it was one of the most read items on the sports page. Okay? So it's all like they don't have a following.

There is an appetite for it. This was Yahoo Sports, right? Yahoo Sports. Well, before that... So the previous with the Toronto Star for several years when he was writing for it. And the whole thing with torontosportsmedia.com,

which I follow religiously, I've commented like a zillion times until that's kind of died off. And by the way, those guys who run it are not members of the media and never have been members of the media. Completely independent.

They just absorb media and they comment on media. Just not enough. They've just died off. I don't know what happened, but their frequency is way down. Well, Mike in Boston did finally discover Cox was gone, so he wrote about that. I saw that article. But before that, some of the other personalities, like William Houston,

I loved his style. he was very polarizing you talk about polarizing oh my god and he got into a lot of trouble over the years there was Bruce Daubegan who was involved he's polarizing too

yeah as well but you need that in that type of role he's great he just wrote a book called Cap in Hand he's in Calgary, Bruce he's very conservative

I noticed oh you read this book Cap in Hand he basically goes after the model of North American sports and compares it to the British soccer model, which the soccer model is the greatest, where the rich get richer,

but the following of those six teams in England are so massive that if they did the same thing here in North America, you wouldn't have the quote-unquote parody, which is so boring. So it's a really great book. Anyway, you're right. Bruce would go after media. So it's a really great book. Anyway, but you're right. Bruce would go after media. So these are, we call these media critics, I guess.

Media critics. They talk about the personalities. Every paper had one. You're right. I love them too. Rob Longley started as a media critic. Rob Longley was the radio TV media critic for years for the Toronto Sun.

Years. But today, in 2019, once in a while, Schultz dips his toes in this. That's how he wrote that book, Hockey Fan Canada. But most of the time, he's in the press box covering the Leaf games. You know what I mean? So Schultz doesn't do it as much as we'd like him to.

So please comment on the, well, we can call this the demise of the mainstream media critic. Like, where's this gone? And who's filling the void? And why? Is that the sports properties? Is it Bell Media and Rogers that are basically saying, you know what, this isn't good because we're being exposed. We're being outed.

But the Toronto Star doesn't own any sports teams. So why did they give it up? I don't know. I certainly think that Chris never got an answer. They always thought it was too inside, that there aren't enough people like yeah like milan or like brian or or you and me that absorb sports media and want to know more about why this person we all have an enormous appetite for this topic but are we is it a subset of a subset well that's just it i think that if you spend three hours watching a sporting event and you absorb the whole thing

the play-by-play the between periods the the way the game is being uh shown to you. To me, like, for example, the opening of a hockey game. Like, I worked on hockey, not hockey, I worked on global Molson Leaf hockey for many years, and the opening to the show, the first two minutes of the show, when it comes on the air, is the biggest deal in the world. What music are we going to,

what's the slow motion and the, I don't know, everything like that. It's hockey nighting, It's the big deal. So that in any, and think about this. If you're doing all 82 Raptors telecasts, how, tonight, Milwaukee. I agree. Giannis.

We still remember Forgey Oliver and the drive of 85. So the amount of work that's put into the production of the show. Forget the, once it starts live, nothing you can do. Your cameraman follows. It happens live. But all the other pre-production stuff, what are we doing

between periods? What are we doing at halftime? The panel. The panel. What's the panel going to talk about today? All that stuff

is all ancillary. It's all, it doesn't have anything to do with the game, but you're feeling. You don't think the geniuses of hockey went back in the early 1900s

and said, why do we have it as two halves? Why do we have seven guys a side, two halves? Why don't we make, why don't we do this? Let's do three periods. Unlike football, which had

halftime, right? Baseball is between innings kind of a thing. Unlike basketball, which is like halftime. Why don't we do two intermissions? We can sell more popcorn. You have to clean the ice. We can clean the ice. But the point of the matter was that they knew that with two intermissions, two breaks, you could do various things in with two intermissions, two breaks, you could do various things in those two intermissions. You could sell more concessions, sell more whatever it was. And once radio and TV came along, you can sell the intermission sponsorship.

You can make more money because people are watching the game and there's nothing else on TV. So it was a different model. As the Zeljkovic's and Houston's and as they all disappear on us and aren't being replaced. They're not being replaced. No. I'm going to add on here. It's the demise of the print in print. The media critic in print.

Right. I think podcasts like yours have taken over. I was going to say, the media critic only existed in print, right? I don't remember any media critics. So that's been now being transferred into the new media.

Correct. I think your program has become the go-to for Toronto sports media. Dave Hodge, Damien Cox, all these folks, I think you've set the example. But Mike can't talk about overnight ratings and talk about all the personalities and what happened. That's stuff I really miss. But you can find all that stuff. It's not easy to find.

No one said it was easy, Brian. But again, if you want to be a reporter and you want to do some digging, you have to. Well, you put the radio ratings on, Mike. I mean, I agree. Toronto Sports Media and your site were the two. And Toronto Sports Media... I send you links on that from the guy in Montreal

that would post the ratings that you reposted sometimes. That's all it comes down to is you've got to find someone that has the inside knowledge. You follow them. And then you just, you know, once they post the ratings, you just post it, give them credit and say, here you go. That's all it comes down to is you've got to find someone that has the inside knowledge, you follow them, and then you just, you know, once they post the ratings, you just post it, give them credit, and say, here you go. Here's the latest.

I mean, we all have our likes and our dislikes and all that. It's just interesting to see, like, everyone kind of covered, like, what's going on, like, what's coming up in the future, you know, the big events, like the Australian Open, for example.

Like, I'm in the tennis mode right now kind of thing. I just want to hear about, like, what TSN is doing. Like, who's covering what? I know they have their five channels, like I'm in the tennis mode right now kind of thing. I just want to hear about what TSN is doing. Who's covering what? I know they have their five channels and I want to learn and I want to figure out what time. Do you believe there's a void somewhere that can be filled?

Absolutely, right now, yeah. Is that the role of new media though? I wanted to get to this before we touch on gambling in a moment. I want to talk about the fact that we now have The Athletic, for example, and we now have Keegan Matheson doing his thing on the Blue Jays, and we

have independents like that. Is Drunk Jays fan an independent, or is he now an athletic guy? I'm not sure. I was a big Andrew Stoughton guy before he went to The Athletic. So that's where I got my information. Do you subscribe to The Athletic, by the way? I don't yet. Oh, because I do, and I know Mike doesn't. Mark, do you? Of course. You do.

So half of us subscribe, half of us are... Look, you know what they offer? Look, this morning when I opened it up, they offered, I don't know, six or seven news stories within the last 18 hours that were great. It's phenomenal. About the Raptors, about the Jays, inside stuff. A lot of it is I find my eyes get tired after a while

because it's so in-depth, right? Right, right. Like there was one, I guess today, where they're talking about the Raptors, and they're making comparisons to other teams going back decades. Yeah. Like the 87 Pacers. And I'm like, whoa, this is like a deep, deep, deep dive. And then I realized that this guy—

Oh, Rick Smith. That this guy— If you want to read Blake— Rick Smith and Chris Mullen. That's right. But what's happened is that the guy who's writing it is writing like 5,000 words. 8,000 words. If you want to read Blake Murphy or Eric Corrin,

these are guys that were- Long form. Yeah, long form. It's phenomenal. Long form journalism. Quite the pitch I'm hearing here. I was going to say. I'm going to subscribe after this episode.

I like the guys there. No, they won't sponsor. And Down Goes Brown is there too. They won't sponsor. They should have a media critic. Oh, what a great idea. Yeah, because they're regional. You nailed it. Right. Yeah. I'm not trying to do their media critic. Oh, what a great idea. You nailed it. Right. Yeah. I'm not trying to do

their... Oh, no. Wait a second, though. Wait, wait, wait, wait. If you're the Leafs or the Jays and the media critic of the Athletics has been pounding you, can you say, you know what, guys? We were giving you three accreditation. One now. That's the scary thing. Oh, you know what? Don't be biting that. Who runs the Athletic again?

Rich guys. Rich guys from California. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just locally in Canada, I think. Oh, you know what? Don't be biting that. Who runs The Athletic again? Rich guys. Rich guys from California. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just locally in Canada, I think. Oh, the Myrtle. Yeah, Myrtle. I'm going to send them a note on that after the podcast. Hire a media reporter. And while you're at it, tell them to get their podcast. Yeah, you know, TMDS does podcasts.

But it doesn't sound like they're great writers, but as a broadcast entity, or to hear audio or visually, stick to writing. Although the Raptor clips aren't too bad when they interject actual game reports, and they show the clips,

and they go through it. That's okay. It's okay. But I always found... We expect, but we have higher standards. But I always found that a lot of times, a great writer isn't necessarily a great broadcaster. True.

A great writer cannot necessarily verbally articulate what they can with pen and paper. Oh, for sure, right. For sure. Brian, I want you to take the lead on this, because I will, full disclosure, I don't gamble on anything. I won't even buy a lottery ticket, okay? So

I have very little ad here. 20 bucks a year, right, Mike? Oh yeah, that's right, I do. But all the money, yeah, I do 20 bucks a year from one hockey pool that I run that I took over for Jason Agnew, by the way. But please take the lead on this. Gambling, sports gambling. It's here and it's not going away.

It's been here for a while. What's different now? It's really here. It's arrived. I mean, this is, we've legalized marijuana and in Canada, eventually they're going to legalize single game wagering. It's going to come. And in the States, it's now legal and

States are quickly adopting it. It's all the new sports entities right now, new franchises, you know, leagues, they're all making deals with, you know, casinos, whether it's Caesars Entertainment or MGM. I mean, this is going to be not just every day, but it's going to be within your screen, within the broadcast itself. Al Michaels doesn't have to hide and allude to it near the end of the game.

Can I chime in and say, okay, so we've all seen like 30 for 30 docs or whatever, point shaving scandals. Oh, it exists in 10. The mob interfering with like sports media and stuff like that.

So isn't it like a third rail of sorts to legitimize gambling for a league? I'm not talking about like some early Saturday morning fan show where they talk about point spreads in the NFL because I know those shows exist or whatever. And they're usually sponsored by a fantasy. And rotisserie leagues as well exist.

And there's money in it. By the way, this is what I've learned, okay? I'm not in the media, but I can tell you right now. When a sponsor puts up their hand and says, I have a check for you and it will clear, suddenly the show will appear on a Saturday morning. That's true. You're right.

This is how it works. Brian, you know that. But gambling, I personally know the NFL is where millions and millions of people are gambling. I know this is a big deal. There's a reason why a Thursday night game on the NFL between two crappy teams that are well below 500 still gets amazing ratings.

Why do you think that is, Mike? Right. And I know, I'd like to know who wins, and I don't care if they win by one point or by 25 points. Like, if there's a winner and a loser, and this is how I watch sports. And I know there's people out there wanting you to kick the meaningless field goal

to cover the spread. And like, oh, the spread was seven and a half. That's called the backdoor cover, but yes. I'm like you as well, Mike. I'm not a gambler as well. But Brian's a gambler. But I agree with Brian. I think, I look at gambling as going to be the next,

you know, TV, local TV broadcast rights have just taken off in terms of what they say to the teams. Is this because Doug Ford's played a casino at Ontario Place? Is that where this is coming from? I think gambling is going to be the next. I agree with Brian.

I think that's going to be the next major revenue source. But legitimized? I understand it's always existed on the side, but you're saying Al Michaels is going to talk about point spreads during the broadcast? They will, absolutely.

Out in the open. It won't be hidden anymore. You have teams going to Vegas now. That's true. There is a team in Vegas. The NHL's doing very well there. And I think to add on Brian's point, I think it's all going to be

about that home experience now. Facebook's spending a lot of money now, you know, for broadcast rights. In-game betting. Any gambling online, while you're watching on Facebook, it all goes hand in hand, where you don't even have to go

to the ballpark anymore. Okay, Brian, can you give me an idea? Sure. Like, how much of a gambler are you? Because I'm going to ask Hebsey this in a moment. I have a little clue of where that's going. Yeah, I mean, I've always been a player of the sports lottery,

the provincial one, which is more entertainment. In ProLine? In ProLine, yeah. You call it ProLine? Yeah, it's ProLine. And I enjoy playing it, watching sports.

It adds a different level. Are there NBA games on ProLine? There are. There weren't for a long time because Stern didn't allow it. Right, but why wasn't there? Because Stern was old guard. I was just going to say,

it's mind-boggling to me 25 years ago, we were not going to be granted an expansion franchise because of ProLine. I was just going to say, it's mind-boggling to me, 25 years ago, we were not going to be granted an expansion franchise because of Proline. It was insane. Absolutely insane. And now you're saying that

when I tune in, Jack Armstrong is going to mention the spread? Like this is something, that's how legitimate this is going to be? He's going to be like, get that garbage out of here. Seven point spread, forget about it.

I think Jack is maybe the exception to the rule. All right. I can see other broadcasters doing that. We have a broadcaster with us today. And Mark Hebbshire, do you gamble on sports? Oh, I used to be a degenerate gambler. Yeah.

So from that perspective. So if I was a young man today, I would be in serious trouble. I would be in serious trouble. Degenerate's a heavy word there. Well, I was. But the difference is I was a in serious trouble. I would be in serious trouble. Degenerate is a heavy word there. Well, I was. But the difference is I was a sports fan first. I didn't need to be attracted to the sport because there was gambling. Yeah, I'm the same way, Mark.

And see, what happens now is that— Except Mark's mad. And I know because I have sons in their 20s. And, you know, I mean, they would have no interest in something, but, oh, you're going to attract me with proposition bets or whatever. My friends laugh at me for that reason. Well, I don't have an interest in the but oh you're going to attract me with proposition bets or whatever my friends laugh at me for that well i don't have an interest in the game at all like i'm not watching the game right now my now my son's a big basketball fan and he might say you know i want to watch utah denver and i hope denver wins but he won't watch a game and say well i'm going to watch

this game and i may as well put a wager on it because I don't have an interest in either team. I never did that. To me, that's not a reason to be a sports fan, but I understand that it's a way for sports to attract new fans. And if the only way they're going to get them to watch the game is if they have a bet on it, that's good enough for them. But the NFL has been brilliant at it. Why haven't the other sports, why has it taken so long? I agree with you on Thursday night,

two crappy teams playing on the NFL Network is still going to outdraw Major League Baseball playoff games. That's right. Yeah. It's mind-boggling to me. It's only because it's, you know, the other sports have become so regional,

but the NFL's still that one last remaining sport because of the gambling. Because it's the perfect sport to bet on. It's always been that way. But also, you have to understand another thing with the NFL is it one last remaining sport because of the gambling? Because it's the perfect sport to bet on. It's always been that way. But also, you have to understand another thing with the NFL is it's always been on Sunday. So, for example, you work hard all week long, right? You're going to watch the NFL game on Sunday. You're going to with your favorite team.

And while you're watching your favorite team, they're flashing scores of all the other games. They don't put the point spread down. They just flash the scores. So, even if your team's getting blown out at halftime, you're like, oh, I wonder what's happening with this team or that team. You know, I might have a little wager, that type of thing.

But even if you're only in your office pool, you started by Tuesday or Wednesday. Well, what are the games this week? The sheet is out. When do we have to have our picks in? By Friday afternoon. Think of all the office pools that have been going on over all the years.

Men, women, young people, old people, throw your $5 in or whatever it is. It's not really gambling, but it's gambling. Now add to that the fact that, you know what? I think I'd like to actually put money down on this game. I've got this team in the pool. If they win, I win the pool, but I'm going to hedge my bet now. And I'm going to bet $20 on the Rams. Or $100 here. So now you're watching a game for a different reason. Not because you love the sport or you have a rooting interest or a vested interest. We have a vested interest.

It's money. And now you're watching for a different reason. You want to see this team fail so your team can cover the points. You want to see this team, you don't care if they lose, go ahead and lose. You're engaged. Don't buy lose. Don't lose by more than the points. You want to see this team. You don't care if they lose. Go ahead and lose. You're engaged.

Don't buy lose. Don't lose by more than certain points. So now, if you were just watching the game for the pure joy of it, you wouldn't even think if they were going for a touchdown when it was 24-0. You wouldn't even think about it.

But if you've got a bet on the game, suddenly it's like, why would they go for the field goal when they were up by three and a half? And it puts into your mind the possibility that the game might not be on the level and i don't like that this is the optics i want to get to because it's one i'm not naive i i understand gambling is big business and there's a lot of bryans out there and it's not like hebsey sounds like uh you overcame a uh uh i don't want

to call it is it an addiction yeah okay but you know but you know how i overcame a, I don't want to call it an addiction. Is it an addiction? Yeah. Okay. But you know how I overcame this? I found out that no matter what, how I gambled, I was going to lose in the end. Yeah. The house always wins. Does Brian know that?

Have you told him? No. Do you know what I mean? I beg to defer on that. That happens all the time. Brian, you're just not there yet, buddy. No, no. But what happened was is that if you're going to be a gambler, you'd better find some way

to have an edge because as great a handicapper as you think you are, or as much information, as much you know about teams, injuries, whatever it comes down to, honest to God,

it doesn't mean a darn thing. Okay, so... Because all it takes is one bounce somewhere and you go, I had that game handicapped. I had it won. Yeah, it's called

in-game variance. And then in the fourth quarter when the game was out of reach and they put the fourth string quarterback in and he fumbled the ball twice and then my team beat the spread. Hey, buddy, that's because you bet. Yeah, you must hate garbage time. Hey, Brian, you got the money on the line in garbage time and then all of a sudden...

So it's not sports. It's not sports. It's out there for you to have a couple of dollars on so that they can get you to watch the whole game so that you'll buy a Chevrolet maybe because you're hanging in there to see if both teams score 62 points. The technology, Mark, this is the whole thing. The fact that you have live in-game betting,

you have halftime lines, you can bet on individual plays even in tennis. Crazy. You can play it by point by point. Every point. That's the thing. The technology and because the millennials and the next generation,

they've grown up with it and all that, that market is absolutely massive. Right, but there's a difference between what you're talking about and league-sanctioned... But they're doing that. The leagues are buying in 100% now. They're making deals right now, Mike. Tell me, because I'm just

ignorant. I need education. Brian, educate me. What league has an official betting? NHL just did it. English soccer's been huge for years. English soccer's forever. You can bet on the actual games. You can show up and do it.

It's expanding the revenue sources. When you have the Jays double-dipping in StubHub. Exactly. Point in my line. To me, it's a slippery... The optics are bad. There's so much money at stake, though, Mike. The top players won't get involved.

This is the whole thing, right? It's always the fringe players. In tennis, they just had 27 players outed. Or the referees. How much... Yeah, the NBA referee. It's always... Typically, it's the referee.

You're right. John Tavares, not that he would, of course. Good character. Good Canadian boy. Give him a thumbs up. But he's making a mint. There's no financial incentive for him to even be persuaded by some mobster who shows up or whatever.

You couldn't do it with hockey anyway. First of all, you couldn't do it. So in basketball, point shaving is a traditional model, right? Basketball and soccer.

Tennis is a big one. The biggest one is boxing. Boxing, yeah. Boxing is the biggest one because all it takes is one person. Just one. All you have to do

is get one guy on the side. But for example, these soccer scandals or cricket scandals, they go to the guys that aren't making enough money. They go to the guys that are poor. Right.

Correct. They're poor. The lower leagues in the soccer division. Yeah, the lower leagues. And they say, listen, you just miss an empty net or whatever, that kind of a thing like that. And here's all your money. Your family's looked after forever.

Right. You can never get to the guys that have all the money. Right. But you can always get to the guys that are struggling, which is why, if you ever saw the original movie, The Gambler with James Caan, conn right they go to the best player on the basketball team whatever the college was they go to the dude and they say look right technology's there now we

need you to miss some shots we need you to miss a couple shots don't make make score 30 points you can win the game as long right win the game yeah but don't win by more than five right and then in the movie the guy they're up, they're up by four, and he's got an easy jump shot, and he bricks it. And the announcers go, I can't believe he makes that shot all the time. And as he kind of runs by James Caan, he kind of gives him a look like, is that good enough for you? Was the fix in?

Well, you know what? You could go into any sport. You could say, did John Tavares miss that empty net because he had money on his team? It's the optics. And for those of us who are purists that want to know that the game is on the level, whatever the game is. That's why Pete Rose couldn't gamble even if he bet on his own team.

You can't touch that. It's the third rail. You can't touch it. Look, is Nick Kyrgios, is he betting on the other guy? Of course, yeah. If he dogs it, did he have a bet against himself? He's, oh, look at the odds here. I'm a big favorite.

I'm just going to bet. He calls up you, Brian, do me a favor. Bet five grand on the other guy. I don't feel like playing today. Right. The technology, though, is good and bad with it, one thing. You have to realize that because money flows and they can track it so easily,

any irregularities are spotted very early. So I'm not concerned about that aspect of it. And this is a natural evolution and it's going to be beyond massive coming up. Sure, you used to have to go to a bookmaker. If you wanted to make a bet, you actually had to go to an illegal bookie. You had to get someone and say,

will someone take my bet? And that bookmaker's livelihood was, if I can get as many bets on this side of the, if it's the Rams against the Cowboys, if I can get the same number of bets on the Rams, same amount of money on the Rams against the Cowboys, I get the 10% vigorous, and that's okay. And that's all I'm going for.

So now, instead of the bookie taking the 10% vigorous, it's the governments that are taking it. It's like, this is beautiful. You're telling me. But now the sports teams are getting their piece. Of course they are. Why wouldn't they? Finally.

Why wouldn't they? So now everybody gets paid. When you're doing episode 800, Mike, in a few years, I'm sure we're going to, when we all reconvene here, I'm sure one of the things we are going to talk about is the lack of attendance at games and viewing it live. Because I think you're right. I think this is going to be, gambling is going to be part of it. It's going to be all

about the in-home experience. But you can do that at the game though, Milan. Everything is going to be there for you to make your wagers in the stadium itself tied in through the properties of the team.

But that's not here yet. No, not yet. But it will be. It's coming. Let me know when that gets here. I'm going to go on a rant. Okay. Because of time,

I want to wrap this up. Have we set the record yet? No, because going to go on a rant. Okay, because of time, I want to wrap this up. Have we set the record yet? No, because that was set yesterday, and if we break it the next day, you're

going to break Tyler Stewart's heart. But this is the last thing. We're going to run quick. The restaurant's

going to be closed in half We've got to go. Last thing. Other than Mark Hebzer, that's the obvious,

but he's actually having great success with Hebsey on sports, and I think he's happier now controlling his own destiny and not having to worry about

what his program director says. Yeah, I can tell. I spend a lot of time with Hebsey. sports, and I think he's happier now controlling his own destiny and not having to worry about what his program director says. I can tell. I spend a lot of time with Hebsey. I feel like I'm married to the guy. You're my program director. The thing is, he controls the content. If I controlled the content, there'd be way too much Drive of 85 talk. He's trying to keep it moderate.

I'm okay with that. What do you want to know about that? I covered that team from spring training. In fact, the year before, we. Oh, that's the next step. In fact, the year before, we were the first crew in the Dominican Republic. We went to Epi Guerrero's camp. Let me tell you something. You talk about remote.

Well, he wants to set the record. He's going down this road now. You talk about remote. We were there before anyone else, and we could not believe the conditions and everything and the ability of the ball players that the Blue Jays had built up over the years. The guys young guys that they had signed and were watching these kids. We're talking about kids that are hitting

baseballs with like a sugar cane style and the talent was unbelievable and the fields that they played on there was never a good hop. You realize how when these guys came and played on these smooth infields in North America oh my god. It was easy for them Tony Fern guys came and played on these smooth infields in North America, oh my God, it was easy for them. Tony Fernandez had never played on a groomed infield like that before.

It was easy pickings, easy pickings. So it was great to see that development. And then, I mean, that team, and then the teams, you know, after that, you realize that a great organization did all their homework, developed it from the lowest thing. Milan, I'm sure in your business, Brian in yours, it's the people that at the bottom kind of a thing that help develop it. Absolutely. They develop and then you-

They're the front lines. You reap the benefits. You go, look at how talented this guy is. This guy is the perfect guy to hire. How did he become that guy? Well, somebody developed him. He found a way or the company that he worked for made sure that he had the skills necessary so that when the time comes along

that we need a superstar, there he is right there. There. He was developed. He was nurtured. He was educated. That's this one right here. I love it. He should have his own production company. He should have his own podcast. I got it.

We got Fadu. Who's on the sidelines right now, not currently broadcasting, that was broadcasting, not broadcasting now, who you would like to have back? So to phrase this more eloquently than that, yeah, who's on the sidelines

that you'd love to see back in the sports media game? Go ahead, Brian. Well, it's the name that Milan brought in earlier is Greg Zahn, because I really am not enjoying the Jay's broadcast right now on the TV side of the ledger.

So he would be mine. Obviously, I'm happy if the Raptors coverage, happy if the tennis. Those are the free sports that I really follow the most. So Brian wants the Zon Cherry back in the game. He would be my choice too, but not him. But that, yeah, that someone, someone like, the Jays broadcast in general,

both the radio and the television side, I think is lacking consistency and just Tom and Jerry, voice of the Jays you know and all that kind of stuff and I think we really miss that uh sort of a dark horse candidate I'm going to throw out there is uh Howard Berger uh I kind of miss him you know uh he had the experience with the Jays and he did stuff with the Leafs and he goes back to the real talk. Probably that's why he's not on the air anymore. He's a little bit too real, but I found him to be one of the few voices that I call a destination. I know him, by the way. I took

him to a hockey game. He went to a Leaf game. When the Leafs were off, or four years ago, they played the Penguins. You can be more specific when the Leafs were off. Yeah, they were pretty bad back then. I miss him. I thought he was real talk. I thought he was very knowledgeable.

I enjoyed his delivery. For a short period of time, he had the record for longest episode of Toronto. Oh, is that right? For a short period of time. I'm sure there's a bunch and maybe Damon Cox is going to, I hope he's not on that list for too long.

Well, at least he's still writing. He's contributing to the Toronto Star. True. So he's on the sidelines, but he's got his foot in the game. Who does Hepsi miss? Before Hepsi goes, I'm surprised I didn't hear Brian say Marty York.

Aren't you a big Marty York Hepsi goes, I'm surprised I didn't hear Brian say Marty York. Aren't you a big Marty York guy? No, I'm not. Marty York hurt me in a softball game in a Thornhill Slopage League. I'm still kind of pissed off at him.

Oh, it's personal. Yeah, I was in a run-down play and he kind of went down. I tripped over him and oh man, it was like a really awful small place.

So he played ball like he broadcasted. Dirty. That's right. Who told the story about him in the bathroom stall? Was that you, Hebsey? Okay, Hebsey. I'm like, who told that great story about Marty Yorick?

It's Mark freaking Hebsey. I like this Hebsey. He knows how to deliver the real talk. Hebsey, who's on the sidelines who should be back in the... Oh, Dave Hodge, definitely. I mean, that show, the sports writer show. The Reporters. I missed that. Yeah, I missed that. I mean, that show, the sports writer show. The Reporters. The Reporters.

Yeah, I missed that. I mean, I always thought that there should have been a show like that from the very beginning. When I first started taking in media, you had a show called The Sports Hot Seat, which was for many years on CTV, where you'd get, I mean, The Sports Hot Seat, you'd get a controversial figure.

I think they had Muhammad Ali on there one time. And man, they'd fire questions. And some of them were them were not you know they were pretty direct questions you know from like uh jim hunter pat marsden whatever the case was i always liked that so when dave hodge started the reporters and it's i gotta be in the i don't know the in the 80s or 90 whenever it was but espn had had it before that yeah and even before john Saunders hosted it, ESPN had The Reporters. I know. It's an hour back to back. It's amazing.

Yeah, and it was terrific because you got some really great issues out there. So I think Dave, I think we need Dave Hodge because Dave Hodge is the preeminent

sports journalist in this country. Journalist. Honorable mention, can I throw in Michael Farber because he kind of got me going with that because he's someone

who I really miss a lot. Excellent. Michael Farber, actually, I hired Michael Farber when he you kind of got me going with that. Because he's someone who I really miss a lot. Excellent. Michael Farber, actually. I hired Michael Farber when he was working at the Montreal Gazette. I was doing morning radio at CGFM 96 back in the day. And I was going for holidays. And my boss said to me, we need someone to fill in for you for two weeks when you're away on the morning show. And I said, my first choice was Wayne Parrish, who was also working there.

And he did a week. And I got Michael Farber also. And I believe that was first choice was Wayne Parrish, who was also working there, and he did a week. And I got Michael Farber also. And I believe that was his introduction to radio. And Michael Farber is very glib, very articulate, both verbally and certainly as a writer. What's verbally? How would you say it as a writer? Who do you miss, Mike, other than Ann Romer? Debbie Van Kiekebel.

Is she doing sports lately? She used to. Great question. Jody Vance. You know, Jody Vance is a great broadcaster. I think she's great. I follow her on Twitter, and I hope if she ever comes to Toronto, she comes on Toronto Mike's.

Yeah, she'd get her back in the game. I know she's broadcasting, but not sports media right now. It'd be good to get her back in the game, for sure, for sure. But I'd like the fabulous sports babe. Yeah, Nancy Donilon. The fabulous sports babe. Gentlemen, that was fantastic. Almost set the record.

I think we're in a strong second. Maybe Dan O'Toole. I have to go compare the numbers. But thank you. Hebsey, thanks for doing it. See you Monday. Milan, thank you for sponsoring Toronto Mike. Fast Time Watch and Jewelry Repair. Brian Gerstein, propertyinthesix.com. Always a pleasure. See you Monday. Milan, thank you for sponsoring Toronto Mike. Thank you, Mike. Fast Time Watch and Jewelry Repair.

Brian Gerstein, propertyinthesix.com. Always a pleasure. Thanks so much. My pleasure. Thank you for inviting me. And that brings us to the end of our 421st show. You can follow me on Twitter. I'm at Toronto Mike.

Mark Hebbshire is at Hebseyman. Our friends at Great Lakes Brewery are at Great Lakes Beer. Propertyinthesix.com is at Great Lakes Brewery are at Great Lakes Beer. Propertyinthe6.com is at Raptors Devotee. Palma Pasta is at Palma Pasta. Fast Time Watch and Jewelry Repair is at

Fast Time WJR. And Paytm is at Paytm Canada. See you all next week. And your smile is fine and it's just like mine And it won't go away Cause everything is rosy and green Well, you've been under my skin for more than eight years It's been eight years of laughter and eight years of tears And I don't know what the future can hold or do

For me and you But I'm a much better man for having known you Oh, you know that's true because