Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Steven Caldwell: Toronto Mike'd #405

Episode Date: December 3, 2018

Mike chats with former TFC captain Steven Caldwell about Scottish bands, playing professional soccer in England, playing for TFC, working at TSN and much, much more.

Welcome to episode 405 of Toronto Mic'd, a weekly podcast about anything and everything. Proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, Propertyinthe6.com, KTM Canada, Census Design and Build, Palma Pasta, and Fast Time Watch and Jewelry Repair. Palma Pasta and Fast Time Watch and Jewelry Repair. I'm Mike from TorontoMike.com and joining me is former soccer pro and current TSN analyst, Stephen Caldwell. Welcome, Stephen. Thanks for having me, Mike. Really excited to be here. Looking forward to having a good chat about many things. I'm looking forward to it too. And I should point out, you brought somebody who's going to help translate in case I get lost.

Well, I didn't bring him. He just came along, I have to say. Is he your Uber driver? I just need to know before I introduce him. But joining us is also Barry Carlisle. Thanks, Mike. Good to be here. Now, Barry, I'm going to tell the story. You and I know each other a little bit. We had brunch, which is, I once told somebody I had brunch with somebody else. Oh, my painter, Chris Brown painted this place.

He's a fan of the show and he wanted to paint the studio. So he paints, and we got to know each other while he was painting. Nicest guy. If you need painting, let me know, Steve. I'm going to hook you up. He's the man. Yeah, and he's like, after he was finished the job, I gave him another job because he painted this for free. And then I gave him, I paid him for doing something upstairs. And

then I started missing him and we ended up going for brunch. And I was telling this story on the weekend, like to my sister-in-law at the Santa Claus parade. And she said that that's a very intimate thing to do. Like when you have brunch or something, that's like a big step for guys to have brunch together. We've had brunch, Barry. We have had brunch. I just think that means something. Is it brunch or is it lunch?

Or what is it? Does that make it special that it's brunch? Yeah, it's something about brunch. There's a Simpsons quote about this. It's not quite breakfast. It's not quite lunch. But you get a good meal and there's a slice of cantaloupe at the end.

Something like that. But Barry, when you first reached out, your name is Barry Carlisle. And I thought you were doing this joke with me because I'm Toronto Mike, right? City name, Toronto Mike. I thought you were from Barrie, Ontario, and your name was Carlisle. And you were going by the moniker Barry Carlisle. And I thought it was really clever. Like I said, this guy's sharp.

I'm not nearly that smart. Well, you could have fooled us. You could have fooled us for 90 minutes. So you didn't have to tell us that you're not as smart as I thought you were. But Barry, do you want to do a little intro right on that microphone about where you work and how you know Stephen? Sure, absolutely. So you and I actually met when I reached out to you after you did the show with Perry Monaco, Elvis from LinkedIn.

Who I was with on Saturday night at the Phoenix to see Sloan. That's right. I saw that. And so I work for a company called Waterstone Human Capital, and we do both executive search work as well as culture consulting. And you had a great discussion with Perry about what should happen to folks when it comes to the end of their current career and what they might want to do next. And he had some great insight, and I reached out to you and said, hey, you know, I'm a huge fan of the show. I've loved the episodes that I've listened to. And if you ever wanted to talk a little bit about your career and where you might want to go, we should get together.

And you were kind enough to respond. And we've met a few times. And it's been absolutely terrific. So I'm thrilled to have you invite me to this. We're having a hell of a bromance. We are having a great bromance. And speaking of bromances, so on my right here is Stephen Caldwell. And Stephen and I met through some mutual acquaintances. And we should mention that it's Dan Caulfield and Matt Goff, who were kind enough to introduce me to you know, we'll talk a little bit today about Stephen's career as a professional soccer player and then his move into broadcasting, but more broadly what it is that he wants to do with the rest of his life. And part of what I've done in the past is work with folks on their career management, career transition, and have a particular interest in what happens to professional

athletes when the playing days are over and you've got to talk about what comes next. And Stephen and I have met many times and had some great discussions about that. And I was thrilled to be able to introduce the two of you and have them on here today. So that's great. And at the end, so I am going to pepper Stephen with my usual questions. And then we're going to, and you can chime in by the way, anytime you want. That mic is on the whole time until I mute it because I've had enough of Barry. That won't take long. It won't take long.

But, yeah, chime in anytime. And at the end, for sure, there'll be a chance for you to talk about that work with Stephen. Stephen, I'm going to read a tweet I received from a different Stephen. This Stephen's a PH Stephen. Right. You're a V Stephen. Yes, I am. Well, I have a brother who's a PH Stephen. Right. You're a V Stephen. Yes, I am. Well, I have a brother who's a PH Stephen.

You know, I think that's important to differentiate. You know, there's two types of Stephens. So PH Stephen, he wrote, he had a two-point tweet. One is, I hope Stephen has a pint during his visit. Would like to hear the real accent halfway through the episode. Does it come out more as you drink? It certainly does. Yeah, I think I'll be okay with one pint, but five, six, seven

I think I'll start to get a little bit too slurry. Nobody will know what I'm trying to say, but yeah, it definitely does. Every word just rolls into one sentence. It's just become there's no breaks. Well, now I realize why why barry's with you he's the designated driver yeah driver and translator that's right second point of steven

with ph is a tweet was uh he's a tall lad please make sure he doesn't rattle his noggin on the basement ceiling it's too late i should have read that before yeah that was very difficult getting in this basement for me at six foot two. It's the first one that tricks you and then you've got to make sure you missed the second little ledge there. But I managed to do it and I need to try and remember when we're finished this podcast not to stand up too quickly and go through the ceiling. I learned Colleen Rusholm, who is a local radio personality, she leapt up in excitement after her episode. This is early days. And then I learned when she hit her head really hard,

I made a rule that as I'm playing down the music and kind of muting your mic, I will pipe in there and remind you. Thank you. You will hit your head. I'll even like touch the ceiling, which I can do while sitting down. That's how low the ceiling is.

Yeah, so I don't want any former TFC greats to get concussed down here. That would be bad for the brand. Yeah, it would take a lot to concuss me. I've got a pretty hard head, fortunately. Good, good. Okay, firstly...

If it's no Scottish, it's crap! Where did that come from? Oh my goodness. I was thinking of you coming over, and I know you're from Scotland, and I was thinking of all the great Scottish bands that I've enjoyed through the years. So just to warm us up before we dive into the soccer and the TSN and everything, just some songs from my favorite. I'm going to play a little bit of music, and we're going to chat about some Scottish bands. Great.

Okay. Let's start. Forgot how long that intro is, but I'll keep it going. I'll keep it going here. But this, of course, is Big Country. And you'll correct me if I accidentally, if they're like, I don't know, an English band or something, and I screwed up.

You'll let me know, right? I actually don't know them very well, Mike. I don't know Big Country. I've not heard a lot of them. Maybe I'm a bit younger than you. I don't know what it is. Well, you're for sure a bit younger than me. For sure. But this song here, we'll get a little bit here. This is one of those songs where the

DJ could tell you the weather and then the news and the sports scores. So Big Country, which creatively they named the song In a Big Country. I guess they were out of words. There's not a lot of words in the... I like it. I don't know that one very well, but it's nice. It's good.

Strong Scottish accent in the singing. I enjoy that. Okay, well, this next jam has the strongest Scottish accent in singing I've ever heard. So let's get to it. I know this one. Feel free to sing along if you...

Love this song. Love these guys. They're absolutely brilliant. They were in Toronto about two weeks ago do you ever do you get invited like you get put on the list when they come to town

you know I was very fortunate because the Proclaimers everybody knows the Proclaimers in Scotland but they were actually Hibbs Hibernian supporters

it's a club in Scotland in the SPL and my brother played for that club for a few years so there's always been a bit of a connection there and I was at the concert it was in Danforth Music Hall and we got invited backstage and I was thinking there'll be 40 or 50 people there backstage yeah there was about 10 of us in

this tiny little room it's maybe the size of this basement almost and it was magnificent to meet them properly get you know five ten minute chat with them really good share a drink and I think he made a comment he he had a bottle of whiskey, and there was a few Scottish people in there, and the whiskey was really low, and he said, I always know when there's Scottish people in the room, because the whiskey gets drunk really quickly. But they were great guys, and it was an absolute pleasure

to meet them and spend some time. No, it's good to hear that, because I like this song. This song came out, I heard it on the radio, I loved loved it then it went away and then benny and june came out the uh johnny depp movie and this song got like re-released yeah and then like suddenly the the you know the the soccer moms i can say soccer mom because i got a soccer player on the sock everybody and their uh brother knew the song and it had like a second life or whatever. But yeah, great jam here. Next time they come to town,

you and I are going backstage together. All right, sorry, Proclaimers. But that's the song, I don't know of any other song where the Scottish accent is so pronounced in the singing. Like, they don't... Yeah, I think they were one of the sort of first guys who pronounced their accent.

We're very proud of their accent. I think in Scotland and indeed the UK, they always tried to sing with American accent, didn't they? But they guys were proud and I'm sure it worked for them. They've been going for 30 plus years and they're still going very strong. They've gone a long time with exactly two hits on this side of the pond. Yeah.

They got that one. Letter from America. Was that the other one? Was that the first one? I think it was Let's Get Married oh yeah Let's Get Married well my favorite

is one called Sunshine on Leith and again reference to the Hibernian supporters by no means a Hibernian supporter but my brother

played for them and that's the song that they sing Sunshine on Leith it's a magnificent song oh beautiful Barry by the way I don't mean to leave you out

if you have any thoughts on this music feel free to chime in anytime and you've already said enough on the podcast to warrant the gifts Barry by the way I don't mean to leave you out if you have any thoughts on this music feel free to chime in anytime and you've already said enough on the podcast to warrant the gifts I'm going to give

so I'm not just going to give Stephen the gifts I'm going to give you the gifts as well that's the only reason I'm here Mike that's fantastic thank you

I believe it okay another Scottish song and then we'll get to the good stuff three more Scottish songs real quick quick so i believe simple minds are from scotland yes they are i'm glad you played this one i thought you would play a simple mind song and this is the one that springs to mind terrific group um i think i think he's a drummer charlie Birchall, but one of the band members was the uncle to a good friend of mine

that I played soccer with, a guy called Mark Birchall, played for Celtic and a few other teams. But Mark and I were the same age. We came through the youth ranks at Scotland together. We've not seen each other for a while, but we're very good friends. And his uncle was Charlie Birchall, and we were always so impressed by that that he was in Simple Minds. And now I'm thinking Scotland's got like 600 people.

Everyone knows it. It's an incestuous country. Like we had this ad here and it was like, you ask a guy in Toronto, you know Kevin from Vancouver? And he's like, oh yeah, I know Kevin from Vancouver.

Simple Minds, that song of course, The Breakfast Club made that a big, big deal. Here's a more recent one. You might even remember this one being released. I love this jam here. Steven, do you know this song?

I do, it's Franz Ferdinand Brilliant group Really, really enjoyed these guys When they were in the pump Maybe, what, late 90s, early 2000s? Yeah, early, yeah, I'd say so Yeah, a bit later Yeah, terrific group

Had some great songs Had a few other albums. And I've always loved this song. It's not just one of my favorite Scottish songs, one of my favorite Planet Earth songs. Yeah. Okay. Because it does this part here.

So you have that opening part there, and then it changes up. Here it comes. And of course this is Take Me Out I can hear the soccer fans yelling at me Mike get off the music, get to the soccer One more here, one more, one more It's not every day I get to do this One more great Scottish band. I can't sleep tonight

Everybody's saying everything's alright Travis! Brilliant. Fantastic group. Another great album as well. So many good songs. Yeah, terrific. They once bussed at Newcastle train station and they had to close.

The police had to come within 10 minutes. It was a little marketing act. They were playing that night. They started busking. I left school when I was 16 to go to Newcastle. And I was there, or not there, but I was in Newcastle, the city. And they start busking and before they know it, there's thousands of people there, and police had to come

and disperse everybody away. I thought it was an amazing little marketing plan, that. That's amazing. That's amazing. And Why Does It Always Rain On Me is another one of my old-time favorite songs. I just can't go wrong with this song. Does it rain a lot in Scotland? It rains all the time in Scotland. So why is he so surprised?

It always rains on him. If he's in California or something, that song would make more sense. Yeah, it would. Just saying here. All right, that's the end. We've kicked out the jams of Stephen Caldwell. Thanks for being here.

I enjoyed that. I wish we had more. Well, hey, you can come back and do a proper kick out the jams with me anytime, my friend. Let me give you some gifts for making the trek here before we dive in. There's a six-pack of beer in front of you. Lovely. That's courtesy of Great Lakes Brewery.

And there's a six-pack in front of you too, Barry. Barry gets a beer as well. You each get six. That's 12 beers from Great Lakes. We've got different ones as well here, Barry. Was that a pompous ass? That's a pompous ass. English ale. Are you allowed to drink that one? That's okay.

I'm going to crack this open right now, actually. Is it cold enough? I was going to say I could probably go upstairs in the fridge. Good, gentlemen. Thank you so much. Cheers, Barry. Cheers, Mike. I've got to keep my sobriety here because keeping track of everything here, I'm going to be...

I'm out of my comfort zone with the soccer episode. So that's really why Barry's here, by the way, to help me out. But let me just say that Great Lakes Brewery is a fiercely independent craft brewery located here in Etobicoke. And Stephen, 99.9% of all Great Lakes beer remains here in Ontario.

Fantastic. None of it gets shipped beer remains here in Ontario. Fantastic. None of it gets shipped over to Scotland, unfortunately. Well, that's a shame. But I have to say the Pompous Ash English Ale is really nice. I'm enjoying it. And if you're around, and this goes for you too, Barry, and anyone listening, they have their Christmas market on Saturday. So I think there's even, if you bring your kids,

I know you got three kids, right, Stephen? I got two kids, two boys. Two kids, I gave you an extra one. Surprise. The lawsuit isn't finished yet on the third child, Mike, so. Surprise. I feel like, who's the guy who does that show

with the paternity tests? Oh, yeah. Every Father's Day is an adventure at Stephen's house. It's a knock on the door. Santa's going to show up on Saturday at Great Lakes Brewery. Hopefully Santa doesn't get too deep into the pompous ass.

But enjoy your six-pack. And you know what goes well with good, fresh craft beer? It's lasagna. You each get a frozen meat lasagna from Palma Pasta. You take that home with you. This is fantastic. That'll feed both kids and yourself, I bet. It's a big lasagna as well.

It's heavy, eh? What do you think that is? How many kilograms? Let's see. A kilo and a half? Maybe. Something like that. Four or five pounds?

Yeah. Maybe two, three. What do you think, Barry? I'm stronger than you. I hope so. I hope. My two-year-old's stronger than Barry. That's a low bar. That hope so. I hope. My two-year-old's stronger than Barry's.

That's a low bar. That's right. So, Palma Pasta, they're Mississauga's best fresh pasta in Italian food. They have four locations in Mississauga and Oakville. If you go to palmapasta.com, you can find out the location closest to you. If you want hot and fresh food, though, I recommend

the new Palma's Kitchen. It's near Mavis and Burnhamthorpe. You can get the address from palmapasta.com. But they got fresh food, a retail store, there's seating, coffee, everything. And if you're having a holiday event, like this is Hanukkah, Christmas is coming, there's lots of different things going on in December, you can get it catered by Palma Pasta. So go to palmapasta.com for information on that. Remember the time.

Steven, this one's really before your time. 1894. Do you remember? Remember the time, Stephen. This one's really before your time. 1894. Do you remember? It's on this day, this exact day in 1894. You were just a wee lad. Very young man. Robert Louis Stevenson passed away.

Oh. Do you remember? So Robert Louis Stevenson. I remember the day. I'm so sad. It was. I said all the flags were at half mass that day. He's, of course, he's a fellow Scot, and he's best known for, he wrote Treasure Island. Yep.

And what else did he, isn't it, Dr. Jekyll, one of his most influential works is The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. So Robert Louis Stevenson was a big deal in the literary world, and it was on this date in 1894 that he passed away. Did you ever meet Robert Louis Stevenson? I didn't, unfortunately, but I'm sure he was a fantastic man. Well, he's a good man. He's a fellow Scot. Remember the Time is brought to you

by Fast Time Watch and Jewelry Repair. They've been doing quality watch and jewelry repairs for over 30 years. You won't, Stephen. But Barry, you remember that when you needed to get your watch battery replaced or get repairs, you went to Sears and they had the watch place there.

And then Sears up and left. But that watch place for the last 30 years was always Fast Time. Now they've opened up their own locations and malls throughout the gta they have a new location in richmond hill so go to fast time watch repair dot com to find out a location near you and if you want 15 off your regularly priced watch battery installation just mention that you heard about fast time at Toronto Mike and they'll give you 15% off. It's that easy. You guys wear

watches? I see you got a nice watch there, Barry. Thank you. How much did that set you back? I don't know. That was actually bought in Switzerland. It's got a Swiss flag on it, but it was actually purchased in Switzerland. That's a pricey watch. That isn't a $39.99 watch. That was an anniversary present for my wife when we traveled this summer. Which was our milestone

anniversary? It was our 20th anniversary. You look too young. You should have bet me over. You got married at like eight years old. That's right. Do you wear a watch, Stephen? I do. I'm wearing my Apple watch today.

I love it. I got this for my birthday in September from my boys. And I'm enjoying that. I have two other nice watches. One that I got when I retired. that one that i got when i retired um and one that i got pretty much when i first started playing so i don't like mixing it up too much i just like my two classic watches and i've been wearing this apple one quite a bit that retirement watch was it at least gold is that a gold watch no it's um it's a swiss watch

and it was something that i always wanted it's a pateatek Philippe, so I always wanted a Patek Philippe. It cost quite a lot of money, so I could never buy one, even when I got a promotion or whatever and I got a bonus. I was like, I just can't justify spending it. But I decided that when I retired, I was going to get a nice watch that would remind me and I could pass on to my kids. Well, if the band ever goes, go to Fast Time to fix that band. that okay that's what they do they kick butt on that so do that for sure i got some questions for you steven like so before we and barry you're gonna have to help me carry

some of the heavier so i can call it soccer i don't have to call it football i call it soccer now i like calling it soccer good because uh you'll confuse everybody if i call it football yeah but i go in between mike so you know don't be confused if i start going at football and then soccer that's that's what i do basically because i was watching football last night and i don't think that's the game you were playing so yeah something else there but yeah let's all let me say massimo so massimo his question actually let me start with this one he He says he wants me to ask you, Stephen, is Canadian soccer ready to compete in the World Cup? And if not, he wants to know what they need.

This is a heavy question right off the bat. Yeah, it's an interesting question. And I think the easiest way to answer it is let's talk about now, the present, and hopefully what's going to come in the future. Because too often in Canadian soccer, we talk about the past and how bad we've been and how disappointing it is and how much bickering is going on behind the scenes and yeah that's a part of it but let's talk about now and what's happening and the fact

that Canada Soccer have a new coach John Herdman who is the women's national team coach and had great success with them at World Cups and Olympics and now he's came over to the men's side. And I think what John's brought immediately is a consistency and a way of playing and a clear game plan to obviously try and help fix a system that's not quite been producing the quality of talent that we need in Canada. And then, of course, to coach the men's national team

as they head towards, fingers crossed, Qatar 2022. And I think almost certainly 2026, where it's going to be a whole World Cup with Canada and the US and obviously Mexico. They can't keep us out of that one, right? Well, they actually can. So it's not been decided yet, but I'll be very short with a 48 so we go to 48 teams for that World Cup which is an increase on the 32 teams that will be for 2022 so I would be

very very surprised if we don't go for the thing is if one nation gets it if Mexico get it then the three nations get it so I think that's in our favour as well and I don't think that you can have a World Cup on home soil and play some games if the home nation's not yet there. That's part

of the allure and the sort of excitement about World Cup, knowing that the home nation's going to be playing on their turf. In 1976, Canada hosted the Summer Olympics in Montreal, and it's the very first Summer, first Olympic Games where the host nation did not win a

gold medal. So we have a history behind us so we'll find a way to not qualify for that we'll find a way okay i don't know some some scandal will break or something well i think that canada will qualify for 2022 i'm confident of that so that will be good because the last time canada were at a world cup indeed the only time i think was 1986 and they didn't manage to win a game or score a goal, even though it was a great achievement to get there. So I think, and I know John's pushing this as well with his message,

that he would love to be at 2022, allow these lads to experience it. Got some very talented young players playing in MLS and indeed in Europe and then they can experience what a World Cup is, hopefully win a game, score some goals and then be prepared to actually excel at 2026 so steven now that we've been chatting for 25 minutes i can tell you there

we don't need the translator it's not bad is it it's better than most of my guests just wait until the pompous ass kicks in though mike i was gonna say we're early in that that point there but uh another question comes here so that that's the Canadian question. But I have a question from Norbert. That's a great name, Norbert. Right? Norbert. That feels like an old school name.

He's bringing it back. Norbert says, ask Stephen if he's saddened by the demise of the Scottish National Football Program. I actually replied to Norbert on Twitter because I was so disappointed with his comment. And I said, we're going to be at Euro 2020, which is coming up. program i actually replied to norbert on twitter because i was so disappointed with his comment and

i said we're going to be at euro 2020 which is coming up so um yeah it's been difficult i mean scotland's a little bit like canada the last time we were at a major tournament was 1998 went to france and we uh we actually played brazil in the first game and we unfortunately didn't qualify from the group and we've never been back since and we've had varying levels of quality in the team. I think probably the lowest point was when I was playing Barry in the mid-2000s but now we have

some talented players. We have Alex McLeish. We have this new thing called the Nations League which we did pretty well in and it gives us another avenue to potentially qualify if we don't get through the traditional qualifying process and I'm confident that Scotland can be at Euro 2020.

You're familiar with Glass Tiger? Yes, I am. I know Alan. I was going to say I didn't play any Glass Tiger. I consider them a Canadian band. I know Alan's Scottish but I didn't think I should qualify them as a Scottish band. They're a Canadian band. Alan's a friend of mine actually, he's a really great guy and he's a very Scottish guy

but he's been in Canada so long, everybody just thinks him as a Canadian band he's a big Rangers fan, Alan I'm more of the Celtic side just because of my family history but Alan and I share a lunch every now and again I've not seen him for a while I was going to ask how he's doing because

I know he's back on the road uh performing since he suffered a stroke yeah i saw him like the week before the stroke he did a concert nearby and it sounded fantastic he was fit and energetic and uh i'm glad he's back out performing again that's a good sign yeah he's such a fit guy that was a big shock i didn't really know alan that well before the stroke so I met him after and you know he was great to me and I was invited through a mutual friend of ours Ken Beecham to come to I think it might have been his first comeback concert

it was one of the early ones and we had the lunch a few weeks before and then I had the pleasure to see him perform on Queen Street a few weeks later and he was absolutely amazing I just was blown away by, you know, the excitement in the hall and obviously the first time I got to see him live

and a great performer. Nice to see him back on the road and I'm sure he's got some great things to come. Yes, absolutely. Now, here we are. Now, again, I've already confessed. I'm really leaving my comfort zone here because I'm going to start talking

like I know what I'm talking about because I did do, I mean, I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm going to fake it a little bit and Barry's going to help me out here but uh of course you have these club teams in Scotland right so to me I'm just translating them ahead this is like we have club teams in the NHL here uh you know Nylander sign have you guys heard that little love hit there so tell me a little bit and I know the teams you played for but maybe um but you you played Newcastle United. Is this your first stop where you played with your brother?

Tell me now, tell me how ignorant I am. Yeah, no, I obviously was born in Scotland, in Stirling, Scotland, and I grew up there. And a lot of kids would sign for Scottish teams when they were 12, 13, 14. And my brother and I decided that we wanted to experience the whole of the UK. So we would visit English academies, Newcastle, Manchester United, Chelsea, Leeds, Liverpool, Aston Villa. We sort of went to as many as we could in a two or three year period. And then it really got to the point where we had to choose and sign for one. And I chose Newcastle United in the

North East of England and so I went on my journey there, my brother followed me even though he had options to go elsewhere also but I think he felt he wanted to be at Newcastle and he did, he signed for Newcastle and so he had periods where he went back, he played for Hibernian

like I said earlier and he played for Celtic and then he came back to English football with Wigan. But I never ever left English football. I played there my entire career in the club game. We were both fortunate enough to represent our country, but I just never played for a club team in Scotland, which was kind of strange. It was a few near misses,

but in the end, I spent my entire career in England. Were you always just... By the way, whose phone is that? Barry's or Stephen? I need to know. It's not mine. It's Barry's.

Is it Barry's? Just accept it. It's Barry's. It's definitely not mine. That might be a call from... It could be a club team trying to get you back. Actually, I was trying to get Nylander in here tomorrow, so that could be him calling.

I saw footage of him at the airport yesterday. Have you seen that? Where he's picking up his bag? He's just picking his bag off the conveyor belt. I would have picked him at the airport yesterday. Have you seen that? Just picking his bag off the conveyor belt. I would have picked him up. You have to say he was pretty cool through the whole process. To just stay strong, it was impressive to watch because I'm sure there was many times he wanted to just get back on the ice

and play the game that he loves. But kudos to him. He got the deal that he wanted. Oh, yeah. It takes a pair, right, Barry? To kind of wait to the last minute like that. Yeah, it was amazing. I mean, we were... Oh, and by the way, don wait to the last minute like that. Yeah, it was amazing.

And by the way, don't even worry about making eye contact. Just worry about the mic. I know you've got beautiful eyes. People were on Twitter and texting like 4.15, 4.30. I guess it started to get done about 4.15 if you heard Dubas' interview. But in terms of public announcement, I mean, it was right till quarter to five

and people were still kind of worried that it wasn't going to happen. This is some drama. One question on the Scottish football, Stephen, was when you look back on your career, are you surprised or disappointed that you never played for a Scottish club team? Great question, actually.

Finally, a great question. I'll take it from here, Mike. Disappointed, I think think would be a good way to mention it Barry I always wanted to play in England that was clear I could assign for Scottish team way back at the start but I wanted to experience that and then I was very close to signing for Rangers which is one of the big two clubs in Glasgow and I was close to signing for Rangers one time and I was big two clubs in Glasgow and I was close to signing for Rangers one time and I was excited about that you know one of my regrets in my

career was not playing at Celtic Park and at Ibrox Rangers Stadium and that was always a little bit of regret of mine just not to have experienced that so when I look back I wish I'd had a little period where I'd played for a Scottish team, but you can't choose where it goes. There's these opportunities come along, you think it's going to manifest into something, then it doesn't, and before you know it, you're just back in England. I was pretty well known there, and for some reason I wasn't that well known in Scotland, even though I was in the Scotland side, and I was in a lot of squads

I played 12 times but I was probably in I guess 30 squads at least and there or there abouts but my reputation wasn't really north of the border it was south of the border and so I just kept getting the offers there And then after Newcastle United

I have a question that came in from a listener. His name is Pete. And Pete, this is about Sunderland. So Sunderland is your stop. And then he says, how much stick did you get for having played for Newcastle's hated rivals, Sunderland? Are you allowed to return to Newcastle

when you visit the UK? And have you ever seen a Mackern in Milan? A Mackern? Mackham? Mackham, yeah, I know, yeah. Yeah, so Mackham's the sort of derogatory nickname for Sunderland supporters. That's what they say, Mackhams.

Mackham, okay. Yeah, that was another one that just came about. You know, I was playing at Newcastle, but I wasn't playing nearly as frequently as I would like to have been, so I was looking to play every single week. I realised that at 23 it was time to actually go and establish a career. And the opportunity came up to move 12 miles across the water to Sunderland,

who were a tremendous club. They were in the North East. The fervour of playing in the North East is really unrivalled in England for sure because it's such a hot bed for soccer, everywhere you go everybody wants to talk about football, I should never have said soccer there when I'm talking about the North East of England but everywhere you go people

want to talk about the game, talk about the performance on Saturday, what's coming up the next week and you can't get away from it so you have to be a certain type of personality that can handle that that enjoys that that you know that kind of intensity and um and i did and i loved it and i was sort of disappointed to believe in newcastle but very excited to be going to a club where i knew i was going to get more opportunities who was similar to newcastle

in the mindset of the club and um and i made the move and i got a bit of stick but it was never that bad i think the newcastle fans understood And I made the move and I got a bit of stick, but it was never that bad. I think the Newcastle fans understood that I needed to go and play football. And I think the Sunderland fans appreciated what I brought to the team. And we achieved success. We won the championship.

Then we had a bit of a difficult season in the Premier League. But I look back on both experiences very, very fondly. And I'm really proud that I'm one of very few players that have played for both teams. So is that like playing for the Leafs and the Habs? Yeah.

Is this the equivalent? Okay. I like this expression, stick. We don't use it that way here. We should. How much stick did you get? I was thinking in my mind, is this an appropriate question?

How much stick did you get? I was a little nervous. No, it was perfect. Okay, all right. All right, and then so we've got you. You're at Newcastle United, you're at Sunderland, and then you end up at Burnley. Yeah.

And again, Barry, chime in if I'm missing something obvious. Okay, and then Burnley, then you go to, is this Wigan Athletic? Yeah. I wasn't sure, Wigan, Wigan? Yeah, so the Burnley one was an interesting one. is this a Wigan Athletic? Yeah. I wasn't sure Wigan, Wigan? Yeah. So the Burnley one was an interesting one.

They really wanted me to go. My time at Sunderland was coming to the end and Burnley were a club who almost went out of the football league about

maybe 15, 20 years before I joined and they were a club that were languishing in the kind of bottom half of the championship the league below the Premier League in England and it was a move that were languishing in the bottom half of the championship the league below the Premier League in England and it was a move

that wasn't that keen on, I was backing forward on it but they had this coach called Steve Coshrell who would not stop calling me, he would literally call on my phone every day Barry, he was on the phone you ready, can you decide and I'm putting these obstacles in his way mate, I need this, I need that

and I think a part of me was like I don't really want to go I don't think I want to go to Burnley and in the end he just kept delivering what I was asking for and I was I guess I'm signing for Burnley so you gotta ask for more when that happens yeah well I don't know I was it was it was a great deal and um talking about Nylander a little bit earlier, it was, the deadline was midnight and it was 11.45 and anyway, I'm faxing for my house and it goes through. So maybe a part of me was trying to be slow and hoping that it wouldn't go through.

But I signed for Burnley and I'm in the car the next morning. I'm driving to Burnley, which is sort of outskirts of Manchester and the Northwest. And I'm thinking, what have I done? I'm just like this was crazy

well at least I'm financially secure and I'm thinking about all the things that should be in the back of your mind the negatives and the sort of

not important not playing stuff and anyway I went and thankfully I have a personality that wherever I go I attack it

and I try and do the best that I can do and it was the best move I ever made go, I attack it and I try and do the best that I can do. And it was the best move I ever made. It was a brilliant club and it was a club that just went up and up and up and it culminated for me and for us and that success at Wembley in the playoff final where we reached the Premier League

the first time in 30 odd years that Burnley had been in the top flight. And just to experience that with that club, it's hard to put achievements into order, but I have to say when that final whistle went at Wembley Stadium a stadium I always wanted to play in London and to be on that turf with a guys that were like we're like brothers we're having a 10-year reunion actually in May which I'm very excited about was just the the pinnacle it really was an amazing experience i'm glad i went with my gut or i'm glad that steve cotter will convince me or be glad the fax machine didn't jam okay we i know the

leaves made a trade one second was there i don't remember the details now some but a trade fell through because the fax machine jammed before midnight or something like that like that's happened yeah but uh okay so burnley great experience uh now whenever you say play wembley i think of freddie mercury yeah that's all i saw that movie last night i haven't seen it yet but i know the footage from so good watch it yeah uh he's not scottish but he can still sing yeah all right okay so burnley great experience uh now wiggin uh athletic uh this is where you play again with your brother, right? Yeah.

Yeah, I was struggling. I'd been injured the season before and I was struggling to get to a club, to find a club. And there was a few options. And one of them was Wigan to go and train for a week. And my brother obviously helped facilitate that. He was the club captain there,

but he was out with a hip injury, had a pretty serious hip injury. And they needed an extra central defender, and the chance came to go there for a year, and so I took it. I thought, well, it'll be a great experience for my brother, but I understood I was third or fourth choice, and it was going to be difficult to play regularly,

and I went and I played, and the start was fantastic when Gary was injured and then my time became limited so it was a little bit disappointing to not play as much but a great experience I played some Premier League games with my brother and I actually learned a lot about myself I learned some great things about the game of soccer

the game of football with Roberto Martinez who's nowgian manager and i learned that i wanted to be a very important player for whatever club i was lucky enough to represent and um i decided that i would just play one year there and i would go somewhere else where i was going to be an important player and i was going to play a number of games the name name Gary has fallen out of fashion. I've had a couple of Gary's on me saying, one, this gentleman, he goes by the name, he actually goes by Gare now. G-A-R-E. I know, like a nickname for Gary. You don't need to

shorten Gary. It's not that long. We say guys in Scotland. And Gare was telling me that in the census or something they did in Canada, like something like nobody was, last year, like in 2017, nobody in British Columbia got the name Gary.

Like, nobody. Nobody. Like, so it's been shut out. That's strange. I just, every time I know you, so I should tell people, your brother's name is Gary, right? Yes, he is. He's called Gary. He's younger than me, 18 months younger, but I think pretty unique that, you know,

our family has two brothers that played a pretty high level of professional football. And the greatest thing, well, actually, I played in the charity tournament yesterday with my sons, they're 10 and 11, and they took part. And, you know, my 11-year-old for sure is getting to that stage where he's strong enough

and good enough that he's actually playing. It's not, you know, just 11 year old for sure is getting to that stage where he's strong enough and good enough that he's actually playing it's not he's not just there as a kid and uh and it was an unbelievable experience but before that i always felt the greatest thing was playing with your brother because you know every move that he's going to make right we represent in scotland we played for wigan of course we were in the youth teams at Newcastle together and another real special moment of my career is thinking back to the times we were on the field together and with somebody that you love and trust and know every move he's going to make every decision that goes through his mind you read it and you're you're sort of there with him and that was a great experience and I think it's a very important part of both our careers

Did you ever play against him? I never played against him. Really? You know what my team once played against him Barry we, Wigan Burnley in the Premier League played just after Gary got there so he went in the January, he played out that season

and we played against each other but I think he might have played out that season and we played against each other but I think he might have played and I never and I can't remember why, maybe I was still coming back from my injury, I had real bad problems with my groins at the time and we only played about 10-15 games that year and I think

he was out there and I wasn't but that was the only time our teams even played against each other because he was in England he was in Scotland, I was in England. He was in maybe the Premier League, I was in the Championship. We kept kind of missing each other. Yeah. Barry, good question.

You're two for two. You can have this gig if you wanted. I think you've gotten it for me here. I'm a little nervous here. Hey, did you know, Stephen, were you always a gifted athlete when you were growing up? I can't, see,

I can only imagine because I was always an ungifted athlete. Is that a thing? So tell me, like, like did, as even as like a 10 year old,

for example, were you like a prodigy of sorts? Like, I only played soccer. So I was, I mean, we played tennis for two weeks at Wimbledon

and we'd, we'd run. We were good runners. We were fit lads, you know, we were always active but we were football players, that's all we did, we literally used to carry this, my dad made us a wooden net, we'd carry it to the local school which was 300 yards and it was pretty heavy, we'd be seven and eight, you know, get two of our buddies and carry it to the field so we had someone to shoot at and then after that we would carry the actual net and we'd tape it to this goal that was in the school park and we did that every single day school holidays we'd go out at 9am

we'd come back at 6pm, we'd play football all day, every day so we were committed lads we were talented lads, there was more talented lads than us, it has to be said but we wanted it more than everybody else and we had the attributes to sacrifice, which is a big

thing for any young kid who's trying to play sport you've got to sacrifice things you can't do the same as what your schoolmates are doing, you're sacrificing more than anybody else for an opportunity to be a professional. And that's what they need to realize. If you don't have that mindset, you've got absolutely

no chance of getting there. So it sounds like what you did is that you nurtured your gift, but you had to have that, the gift to begin with, because I played baseball every day. I played baseball every day. And it wasn't going to make me suddenly gifted at baseball. I just, I loved playing it.

I had passion and I played it a lot, but you know, because I love the game. I still do, but I wasn't, you know, I guess you're born with that, right? This is just, you're blessed with physical abilities. Yeah, I think definitely you are born with it. You're born with that talent. And my dad was a semi-professional player.

So football was in the family. It was in the blood. And you are born with it. But I do feel that a lot of it, and I think there's maybe some of me miss a little bit here in Canada, in soccer, I have to say. I don't know what it's like in other sports.

But in soccer, we recruit a lot on talent. But we don't recruit a lot on mentality. And I think we should do it more. I think we should look at the drive and grit and determination of a player. And I only say that because my brother and I's case, that's what it was all about for us. We were always captains and leaders and the guys that everybody went to. And we still go back to Stirling and some guy will come up to us in the bar

and we'll know him or we'll forget him or whoever and he'll say, I was better than you two guys, you know. And he probably was better than us, but he wasn't at the park nine hours a day and every day of the summer. And he wasn't, you know, in his bed at 9pm on a Friday night and, you know, eating pasta and sacrificing. And he was at the park and he was maybe smoking and having a beer

and doing all the things that normal teenagers get into. We just never got into that because our drive and determination to get there was so extreme that we were just never going to let anything get in the way. That's a great point. It's a perfect storm of natural born talent

and drive, discipline and then you nurture your gifts. Absolutely. So just to get you back, I want to get you here. But first, you have a stop at Birmingham City. Yeah. So tell me, as if I know nothing, that's going to be very difficult for you, but I think you'll be able to manage it. So tell me the stop, you leave Wigan Athletic for Birmingham City and then,

then, at the end of this, I want to know why you decided to come to Canada. So, first and foremost, Wigan,

like I said, a bit of a stopgap year. There was a game where I played the week before at Wigan and we drew 0-0 with Everton

at Goodison Park and I thought I had a good game. It was 0-0. I was the defender and it came to the next game and Roberto pulls me in the hotel at the pre-match meal and you always know that's a bad sign.

The manager's looking for you. You're hiding. You're trying to get away from him as if that's going to help it. And eventually he pulls me over and he said, I'm leaving you out today. I think actually my brother was coming in,

which made it even worse. My younger brother. he said, I'm leaving you out today. I think actually my brother was coming in, which made it even worse. My younger brother. So anyway, I was being left out and I was livid. I was fuming because I couldn't understand it. And I looked at him and I said, look, this game was a big game. We were playing Wolverhampton. This game's more important.

I'm not happy, but the team's crucial today. Whatever you need from me, I'm there. And I was a good team player, and it took a lot because I wanted to just scream at the guy. And so a few days later, he pulls me in. We have a chat that was always going to happen. And I remember him saying to me, what you did the game before was completely unselfish,

and I'll never forget it, and it's really important to me, and I'm that kind of guy. Whatever, this is a manager just trying to make you feel good and so when Birmingham came about uh Chris Hewton who's now the Brighton manager was my Birmingham manager and he called me up he said I want to sign you uh Roberto Martinez has just been the phone and he says I should build my whole team around you that you're going to be the captain and and so it made me think about you know always acting professional and always being that guy who who if you truly portray yourself as a team player then you have to live that you have to act that and you have to put your selfish beliefs and needs and wants above uh or the team above that in any scenario.

And I did that and it got me my move to Birmingham. Yeah, I was going to say, it's not tennis. Like this is, soccer is a team game. And how you work with your teammates and your selfless behavior matters in soccer. Yeah, it certainly does. And to do that takes uh again discipline and takes belief in your team and it's not an easy thing to do because there's still a selfish aspect

to your career you want to achieve and and rise and do the most that you can possibly do and so at times to be able to be unselfish like that is really difficult it takes experience because i probably wouldn't have did that same thing when i was 22 barry i probably would have been right in there and screaming at roberto but at that time i realized the importance of the team and it got me a terrific move to birmingham where i thoroughly enjoyed it especially that first year we were in europa league we competed against you know some of the best teams in europe we were first time we had been in europe for 60 years a club it was amazing experience we got to the semi-finals of the playoffs played 60 odd games uh great bunch of guys fantastic manager and chris you know i learned so

much um you know leadership skills and and and uh management skills from um And it was just like a great move and it came about because I made the right decision at a really difficult time. Now, what brings you here? Actually, you know what? Save that for a second. I want to thank a couple of sponsors

because this is the moment where now the Toronto-centric people are like, oh, he's coming here now. I want to hear this. But I want to thank a couple of sponsors. I want to thank Census Design and Build for their amazing support. They provide architectural design, interior design, and turnkey construction services across the GTA. If you want to know more, like to learn about the possibilities for your home,

you can call Census at 416-931-1422 or go to censusdesignbuild.ca today to schedule your zoning and cost project feasibility study. And I want to thank Paytm, who have been proud sponsors for over a year now. That's an app I use every day. I pay all of my bills with Paytm. Go to paytm.ca to download the app for your smartphone, and you can get $10 right now. In fact, pause this episode right now and do this. Get the $10, then come back to the episode when we dive into TFC stuff. But the way to get the $10 is when you make your first bill payment, put the promo code Toronto Mike. That's all one word, Toronto Mike. Stick it in there,

and you'll get $ dollars in paytm cash right away and you can use that towards another bill or a gift card you could buy in the reward section so do that and now let's get stephen caldwell to toronto what makes you visit the big smoke well i was leaving birmingham uh you know there's some financial constraints there and i knew it was just a two-year deal. And so I was looking for another challenge. And I'd always wanted to play some football elsewhere. I thought it might have been in Europe,

but MLS was very appealing and it was growing as my career was developing. And I got a call from my agent to say, Toronto are interested in you. There was a guy before Greg Vanneco, Ryan Nelson, I'm sure everybody knows, a great friend of mine New Zealand international, played a lot of

Premier League games, Ryan was finishing his career and he was going to become head coach at Toronto and I played against Ryan but I didn't know him personally and so my agent said Ryan wants you to come, great okay, we kind of went through a few of the details and said well july would be nice you know i'm going away with my family and for a vacation

and i'll come in july so he calls me back and he says uh ryan needs you now he needs you in may and i just played 45 games i was living away from my family i was commuting it was pretty difficult second season at birmingham and so i said i don't think that my family i was commuting it was pretty difficult second season at birmingham and so i said i don't think that's possible i need to go away on vacation and it's really important that i you know spend some time with my kids and he said okay well call ryan nelson so i've got a lot to thank my agent for here because he's like call ryan nelson and explain it to ryan he's a great guy you guys you guys should connect properly and um let's see where it goes so you know i go say to my wife i'm going to go through the back room and i'm going to call

ryan and uh and explain that i'll you know come in july if he still wants me and i go through the back room and i try to start to explain to ryan and within five minutes he's convinced me to come so i come back through my wife's like, so did you tell him? I said, I leave on Tuesday. So I jumped on the flight. She was going crazy. But it was something about Ryan and something about the story

and the opportunity. And I knew a little bit about the city. Oh, because Pete had a question. What did you know about Toronto and TFC before you joined us? Great question, because I didn't know a lot about Toronto, but I knew a friend of mine who played with me at Burnley called Richard Eckersley. He was in the team at the time at Toronto.

And a good football is such an insular game. Everybody knows everybody. My roommate, my friend in Birmingham who played with both Richard and I at Burnley, he had visited richard in in toronto and he's like toronto is a brilliant city you have to go and i'm like really and he's like it's better new york we always compare everything new york or vegas if you play soccer

in the uk and i'm like better than new york like come on and he's so that was in the back of my mind and i'm like okay so i know it's a fantastic city Richard's there Ryan's asked me to go so I kind of knew that it was a great place to be but I didn't know a lot about it I have to be honest and it was more about the opportunity to go and play in MLS and

with Ryan and help Ryan build a platform for success that obviously came in the last few years. And I have to say, it started then. It started with Ryan. It started with his vision. It started with the commitment

from Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment. And of course, there was changes. Jermaine came and went and I retired. And Michael was coming in at that time and Josie was after Ryan. So there was all sorts of changes that led to success but that was the beginning of it that change in mentality, that

commitment for success financially and professionally was really important. Establishing that winning culture again, I'm sorry, I'm a big hockey guy so I'm bringing it back to Brendan Shanahan and we're starting to reap these benefits of basically this uh yeah this this expectation and building you know kind of a

holistic organic building of a champion and yeah it starts at the top right it starts at the top and it starts at the very top and it starts with a guy called tim like wiki and he's the one that starts the whole thing so none of these brendan and masai and Bill Manning and Bill Manning was a little bit after Tim but none of that winning mentality would ever happen without Tim being at the helm the CEO of Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment and and so he was a great catalyst for that he was a man that said the famous quote why can't we be great he meant that for the whole organisation and I do feel he really changed the mindset and he put good leaders at the top of each team and made sure they were set up for success.

And I think his first decision with TFC, and he was always, Tim always had a soft spot for soccer. He loved soccer. He was really committed to soccer. And that was really, we were really grateful for that at the time because it would have been easy to say, oh, the Leafs are in trouble and their apps need a bit of rebuilding. And, you know, obviously bringing in way more revenue than TFC. So, but it was because of that soft spot for soccer that Tim was always committed to putting as fans, we wonder when we hear about ownership,

good ownership and bad ownership, why it would matter to a player who might be two or three or four levels beneath the owner. But tell me a little bit about what that means to you as a player to know that the, I mean, he wasn't the owner, but he was the head of MLSC while he was here. How did you feel his impact as a player? Well, he takes time to get to know you first and foremost, Barry. He's there, he knows your name. wants to take time ask you questions so you're like okay the ceo of the organization actually cares about what we think and where we are taking us i have to say

i played for a number of great teams in england i don't think i played for a better organization than toronto fc and i'm talking about the food in the canteen, the level of care and travel they give you a handbook when you get to Toronto and they tell you where the doctors are, where restaurants and they tell you everything about the city

and normally you sign for a club you get left in the corner and you maybe have a player liaison and there's somewhat of a sounding board and a help but this was another level and and you wanted for nothing everything was on on uh to perfection to prepare to get yourself ready and unfortunately at the time we didn't really have the athletes to compete but then as we started to improve the quality and we started to get people in i hope i was a part of that but

different people to demand that level of professionalism that is needed to create success you started to feel something coming and you know i have to say talking about ownership but i know there's a number of owners involved with maple league sports and entertainment but larry tannenbaum's one of them and and larry's a great man for the city and he's been brilliant for MLSC every single game Larry would come in the locker room and he would shake everybody's hand win, lose or draw

and he would know everybody's name and I'm not talking about Michael Bradley and Sebastian Jovinko everybody the guy who was hardly getting a game the guy who was hardly getting a game, the guy who was substitute, everybody, well done, individual name, shake hand, look you in the eye.

That's such a big thing. It's really important. An outstanding organization that were just committed to succeeding, that would not accept defeat, and in the end, through the resources that they provided, success came. And what about fans uh how would you compare the tfc fans to to the fans of other teams you played the tfc fans are absolutely fantastic i do i do think that i played with some great clubs

so you know you have to say this right because you can't come on this show now and trash the fans right i would never trash them they're really good they are and of course we all know about day one where they were throwing the seat covers and there was 20 000 there and and that core group is stuck and you know winning runs we get packed stadiums and it's an amazing place to be and then obviously if there's a bit of a losing run we lose that five or ten thousand but there's,000 people there every single game that are committed to that club that have pretty much been there since day one.

And I think they're absolutely fantastic. I think it's a great city to play sport in when success is happening. And I know it's a very sporting city, but I would never undermine any of the supporters I've played for. And I mean that. Newcastle's another level.

Sunderland, I played some games for Leeds United. We got relegated that season. You'd never believe the level of support. And I think it's growing in Major League Soccer. But I do think that there's a number of great places to play now, and Toronto is certainly one of them. When my buddy Elvis gives me his second ticket, he has supporter

section seats at BMO there. And when I'm there, it took me a while because I never grew up playing soccer. I didn't watch soccer. I only watched World Cup. That was it. And I didn't play for some reason. Every kid in Canada plays, right, Barry? I never played. It's not on

me. I'm too young. I feel like I should have been put in a soccer league. My kids all played soccer. Anyway, I'm very upset. I need to see a therapist about this. I never got to play soccer. It's upsetting me. So I was new to soccer and I couldn't believe the ambiance.

I couldn't believe how different it was from what I was used to, which is going to a Raptors game, which is great, or a Leafs game, or Argos game, or whatever. But I'm at BMO. I'm in the supporters section. We're all chanting.

The scoreboard's not telling us what to do. There's no, like, okay, now you clap your hands. No, we all, the fans, drove this. There's nothing like it in Toronto sports. It was amazing. One of the greatest live football or soccer games I've ever been in my life was TFC against Montreal. And I was working, so I wasn't really there.

But I don't know if you guys remember. It was the rain night where TFC won the conference final. It was the year that TFC lost to Seattle. 2016. 16. There you go. OK, I need to put a pin in that, as they say. Because Mike, who once gave me tickets to,

I want to thank Mike for once gave me tickets to a TFC game. He wanted me to ask you this question. Can you name a more exciting two-legged tie than Toronto versus Montreal in the 2016 MLS playoffs? The Montreal groundskeepers, the TFC away goals, the crazy return league. He says this year's Copa Libertadores. What am I trying to say there?

Yeah, Copa Libertadores, yeah. He has a final doesn't count since it's not over yet, he says. But is this, are we talking about the same thing right now? Yeah, we are. We are talking about the same thing. Oh, phew. I mean, I'm sure most people listening know about this story, but I'll take you through it a little bit because it was my uh sort of my entry into broadcasting so I was calling

these games with with Luke Wallman for TSN and and there were big occasions and it was tough for me it was my I think I'd done five games maybe maybe not even three games before this um so I was there and first of all we were in in Montreal, we were in the Big O and there was 60,000 there and it was unbelievable and I'm very nervous about my call and so I'm trying to concentrate on my job and

what I'm going to do and say we're supposed to kick off at 7pm or 7.08 it would be. We're sitting there and we get a call in our ear saying the lines are wrong we're like what?

the lines are wrong, they've measured the pitch wrong so there's going to be a 45 minute delay and the drama was just unbelievable but all I'm thinking is how the hell are we going to film for 45 minutes I'm panicking about my role in that we had a studio as well we had a or a panel i should say andy was hosting andy petrillo with uh christian

jack and i think carl robinson the vancouver manager at the time was was in so we had a lot of support and we were bouncing back and forward but the drama the experience montreal go into a 3-0 lead At that point I'm like This could be five They're way on top TFC scored two goals to come back They set up nicely for the second leg at BMO And BMO is packed to their afters There's the temporary seats in behind

It's pouring the rain It sets the tone really I don't know why But rain always makes it more dramatic Doesn't it and it was just an unbelievable game back and forward two amazing teams

two Canadian teams that was important to me not because of the rivalry just because of the I think when we look back in Canadian soccer in 10, 20, 30 years time we'll reference this game kids will talk about this game who become professional soccer players who play for some of the best teams

in Europe, I hope, and indeed MLS. We'll reference this game as the day that they watched a home game and went, I want to be a professional soccer player. I remember watching all the TFC playoff games. There's a must-see TV for me. And now that you've said the name Christian, I need

to play a question from Brian Gerstein. He's recorded his question for you. He's from propertyinthesix.com. Here's Brian. Propertyinthesix.com Hi, Stephen. Brian Gerstein here, sales representative with PSR Brokerage

and proud sponsor of Toronto Might. Now is the time to help me evaluate your home or condo if you're looking to get it on the market in the new year. If you are buying, December is the best time to get a great deal with less competition and motivated sellers. Call or text me at 416-873-0292 to get the ball rolling. Stephen, I always enjoy watching you and Christian Jack together breaking down all the games for me.

The two of you have great chemistry and mutual respect for each other on air. Does this also translate into your personal lives, or is it more strictly business? You hanging out with Christian on your Saturday nights? Yeah, we hang out quite a bit. Christian lives with his family in Burlington, hang out quite a bit. Christian lives with his family in Burlington, so there's a bit of distance between us. So, I mean, we're normally

working a lot together, but we're having dinners and lunches and Christian hosts a charity soccer tournament for a good friend of ours called Adrian Bradbury from Football for Good in Uganda. So, Adrian's a Toronto guy and he started an academy in Uganda. So Adrian's a Toronto guy

and he started an academy in Uganda and Christian hosts this soccer tournament every year that I became a part of and TFC kindly provide BMO training ground for us, which is amazing. It saves us a lot of money and it means that all the money goes to the charity. We had our day yesterday and it was a lot of fun.

Christian puts a lot of work in. Most things that we're involved in, we do together. We're going to start a podcast ourselves in the new year very soon. Is that a promise? That is an absolute promise, yeah, we are. We're going to be recording that really soon. We're excited about it. We think it's going to be good.

It's going to be a football podcast and it's going to be us two guys talking about all the things that we want to talk about a wee bit more in depth than we do on air where we maybe have a producer in our ears saying 10, 9, 8, 7, 6

so we can get into the details and bring up some stories in the game and the tactics that we love to go over. But we have a great mutual respect, a friendship, and I think it will continue for many, many years. Amazing. Now I want to bring you back to your playing days here real quick. So in 2013, what did it feel like?

You were named captain. Yeah. How does that feel? Is that always an honour when you're chosen as team captain? Yeah, it's always an honour. I was lucky enough to be captain at most clubs I ever played for. I think I was first captain at Scotland Schoolboys at 15

and I was captain at Sunderland. I was captain at Burnley. I wore the armband at Wigan. I was captain at Birmingham and I came to Toronto and a good friend of mine was captain at the time Darren O'Day, Irish international. And Darren left to go to Ukraine and Ryan gave me the armband.

So again, a great honour. It's something that I love to do. It's an important part of my game, I think, to lead people. I think it's a big reason why I had a good career because it was a skill set of mine to do that. But being captain is about leading, it's about supporting people, it's about putting the team first.

But wearing the armband is not that important. You have to live it, you have to be that guy, you have to have a number of different leaders. So I always appreciated that and I always respected wearing the armband, but I was always me, whether I was wearing the armband or not. And I think that people maybe put a bit too much emphasis

on who's wearing the armband. It's about doing the right things and being a leader. And thankfully, I feel like I did that in every single game that I played in my career. Now I have a question. So we've established that you were born with this talent, this natural talent, and then you nurtured it with the right mindset and discipline. You became a great professional soccer player.

Can you say the same about leadership? Here's my question. Are you a natural-born leader and then the same applies? Or is leadership, being a leader, because I sense even just chatting with you the last hour, you're a natural born leader and that's why everybody wants to put it's an armband in soccer, you get an

armband, okay, no C on the chest, I know that, okay, an armband. Would you say, can you teach somebody how to be a leader or does it have to be within you and then you nurture it and pull it out? You certainly can teach people to be leaders you can develop the skills but i do think there's there's certain attributes needed to be in you but it can be cultivated like anything it's it's

a learning process it's about going through um the right habits the right routines to be a leader to be a good team player really a leader is just an extension of a good team player. It's about someone who sacrifices and accepts responsibility and accepts accountability within a very pressurised environment. And I was always capable of doing that, even when I was a kid and I was playing with Newcastle with guys like Alan Shearer and Shea Given and Warren Barton, Rob Lee, great leaders in their own rights I was still leading I was still demanding I was still asking things from them because I think Bill Shankly said that

football's not a case of life and death it's way more important than that and of course he's tongue-in-cheek but that's how we treat it, that's the only reason we get to the top is because we have that mindset to the game that we love and you need that to get there and so whether you're 30 or 20 or played 100 times for England

or you've never played at all you treat people with respect and you demand things from them that you you know, non-negotiables is me and my brother call it. I love that one that he sort of came up with non-negotiables, non-negotiables in any team. We need effort.

We need commitment, whatever they are, whatever you decide the nine or 10 non-negotiables are, they are the essentials and quality performances come and go. But if you keep your non-negotiables and you stick to your culture and your values, you'll be successful. Who would win in a fight, Alan Shearer or Roy Keane? Oh, well, I like Alan Shearer. He was a teammate of mine.

Roy Keane was my coach at Sunderland and I don't like Roy Keane. I'm going to say that on Toronto, mate. I'm sure he's not listening, but if he is, he's a difficult character. I think Alan Shearer would win. He's tougher. I should give credit to that question. I'm not smart enough to come up with that question. The next question comes from Pete, but here's another great question. Who's the best teammate that

you've ever played with? And you can't say your brother. No, I always go to my brother as well. My best teammate was a man who passed away, actually. He was called Gary Speed. He was a Welsh international. He was at Newcastle when I joined.

And Gary was the consummate professional. Gary was a role model of mine. He taught me what it really meant to be a professional in every sense of the word. And he was a guy who played, he won a championship with Leeds. He went to Everton. He played a lot of games there.

Captain to Everton, came to Newcastle, played a number of games, Captain Newcastle. Played till he was 38, I think Gary did, and then coached, and was coaching the Welsh national side when he passed away. Unfortunately, I think it was about seven years ago today.

He's a guy that meant so much to me because of the way that he conducted himself and the lessons I learned from him. Not the greatest player, and I'm not being derogatory to him, but a guy who milked everything out of his career and they were the ones I always you know sort of

lent towards because I think I was similar myself it's not always about talent it's about just giving your best and being able to look in the mirror at the end of the day and say well I gave my most I didn't have any more to get out of my career and gary was the guy who did that and um i miss him a lot of people miss him because of the effect that he had on people and i wish we

could have said it to him more when he was alive now pete uh suspected you'd say gary speed so he's got a follow-up regarding gary uh it's a little heavy but i want to ask it. He says, given the awareness we now give to mental health issues in North America, he wondered if you thought maybe does more work need to be done in the soccer culture regarding mental health? Yeah, I think it does because I think that we always expect the guys to be macho and tough and get on with stuff. And I think that we we don't appreciate how much pressure that that these men are under and how they're just normal people they

don't they're not supermen or batman it's it's you feel things you have tough times at home you have tough times professionally you you maybe just um have that mentality you know you maybe just have that mentality you know, you just you're not, you're supposed to just bottle that up and you're supposed to just perform and go out there every single week, every single day and give your best and I think there should be

more in place to protect these players, more ways that these guys can talk to maybe somebody independent because they're never going to go to their coach they're not going to go to their assistant coach, it's just not done they're the guys that they

feel they need to stay strong with to compete on the field so there needs to be somebody independent whether that's a league psychologist or whether it's essential that every team has their own psychologist or a i think back in the day it was like a reverend for us you know we had a reverend who would always give us a speech at the start of the year and say you know if you've got any problems come and speak

to me nobody went and spoke to the guy but he was there but we need to try and take away the stigma that you have to bottle things in because it makes you seem weak if you don't. It's absolutely ridiculous. But unfortunately, because of the sport we play and because of the high-pressure situations, we feel like it's something that we can't talk about. Well, you work at TSN where Michael Landsberg has made great strides with Sick Not Weak, I think is the hashtag that they use.

And again, if people are like me and they weren't aware of Gary Speed, us in this hockey and basketball and baseball-centric world, who's Gary Speed? But just to share that, sadly, as you pointed out, he passed away.

He was only 42 years old. He took his own life in 2011, right? Yeah, Gary was, like I said, a great leader, a great player, the best-looking guy you'd ever seen, always laughing, so confident. Never in a million years would you have felt that Gary was the kind of guy who was struggling inside with different things. And so that's what made it way more shocking.

And I think Gary was maybe 42, something around about there, when he took his own life. He was the Welsh national team manager so he had a job, he had lots of money, he had earned great money in his career, he had everything going for him, beautiful family,

good looking guy, the whole world at his feet and so it's not always the people that we expect to be struggling and that's why it's important that we start caring a little bit more in this world. We start asking people how they are and genuinely looking them in the eye, not just a phrase, asking them how they are, taking some time to get to know your workmate, your teammate,

your friend, just actually, you know, communicating properly instead of just going through the motions. Well said, well said. Now, share with me how you end up at TSN. So maybe take us through the TSN. There'll be more TFC questions. I'm sure that'll hit me because I'm a big TFC fan. But tell me how your career winds down with TFC

and how you end up in the booth. Give me that origin story yeah i did a little bit of tv work when i played in england and i always sort of enjoyed it and i did some games when i was injured for my team and they were in the playoffs and they were in a couple of cup competitions so um when i was at tfc i was 32 33 and i was starting to think not about what's next but more about you know other opportunities I spoke to Mike Massaro who's

Director of Communications at Toronto FC Mike's a good friend of mine I said, just sort of tongue in cheek I'm wondering if TSN or Sportsnet would like me to come in and maybe do a Premier League show with them in my cast around and thankfully for me would like me to come in and maybe do a Premier League show with them and my cast around and thankfully

for me TSN were interested and they wanted me to come in and support Christian and Luke and Luke Wildman, Christian Jack and Jason DeVos at the time and my first show was when I was still playing so I did a couple with the guys

maybe one of the guys was away on a trip or having some time off and I would step in in their place and then when I retired it just became a bit more consistent so it just developed and developed and eventually Jason DeVos was leaving to a great role at Canada Soccer and I did quite a few reps and Jason was really complimentary of me which helped me a lot and I'm very grateful and thankful to him for that I'd sort of just assumed all his shows and it became

very consistent to the point where I was still working with Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment but it was a lot of times I was at TSN Studios filming shows and again I'm grateful to maple leaf sports and entertainment for for respecting that and allowing me to do that they were really really great with me and yeah sure you know i was still getting my work done

there but i was in the studio a lot of times and so i was doing two full-time jobs for about a year and a half wow yeah uh and tsn yeah big big deal, but they have a lot of soccer properties. Yeah. So thankfully you're not covering hockey. It's a low blow. That's not a low blow. It's all good. TSN guys are the best.

Congrats to Jay Unright. He just had a baby. I saw him leave the set there. He's been on the show a couple of times. Here's a question from, again, this one's from Pete. Pete, actually, he sent me like 100 questions. So Pete, I'm only going to show a couple of times. Here's a question from, again, this one's from Pete. Pete, actually, he sent me like 100 questions. So, Pete, I'm only going to ask a few of these.

I think Barry wants to chime in soon here. But he has a great question that I never thought of because I don't spend any time thinking of the Premier League. Oh, by the way, Tottenham Spurs are in the Premier League, right? I should know this, right? Mark Hebbshire, who we record every Monday and Friday, we record his podcast, Hebsey on Sports. This is the first week where we aren't doing any episodes

because he and Greg Brady from 590 took a trip to England to catch their favorite team, the Tottenham Spurs. So that's where he is right now. He's in England all week. So they had the big game yesterday, Tottenham Hotspur. Hot on my sore. I'm thinking of thetenham Spurs. Yeah. So that's where he is right now. He's in England all week. So they had the big game yesterday. Tottenham Hotspur. Hot on my sore. I'm thinking of the San Antonio Spurs. Just help me, mate. We call them Tottenham Hotspur, but

they call them Spurs. That's their nickname, you know? Hotspurs. Yeah. So Arsenal, who are the great rivals of Tottenham Hotspur, were playing yesterday. Arsenal against Spurs, and it was 4-2 to Arsenal. So the guys won't be too happy if they're big Spurs guys. No,

they're going to come home cranky. It's going to happen there. So this is the question from again Pete I believe. He says Manchester City dominates he says because they have unlimited resources so I'm going to pause there and say is this correct? Does he make his premise faulty?

Everyone at the top of the Premier League has unlimited resources if they want. He wants me to ask you what changes are necessary to level the playing field like they do in North America. I guess he's looking for parity, right? Yeah, I don't agree with parity. I think that if you're willing to spend and you can create revenue, there's a bit of parity in Europe now because we have financial fair play.

So if you can't bring in the revenue, you're not allowed to spend. You get big fines and indeed bans and stuff, which I think is really important because teams were spending crazy amounts of money. Oh, he says that's a joke. That's another thing he chimes in here. He says that's a joke.

Well, a joke's taken it a bit far. I know people push the rules and try and bend it a little bit like I think they do in most sports, but I still think it's something that's there for a reason. And like I said, you know, in the Premier League now, we're talking about hundreds of millions of pounds every single year for basically all these teams

to spend if they want and um and man city spend it they have a middle eastern owner uh ownership group who spend great amounts of money liverpool are spending money manchester united are spending obscene amounts of money and they're languishing and sort of mid-table so it's not always about the money he spends but spending it properly and i think i really think manchester city spend it properly and i think that they've bought a great group of young players they've overpaid for a lot of them because they have to to make sure they get them and now i think they've got maybe the same one or two a year but they have the opportunity to let these guys be consistent together for four or five years and i think they're going to win a lot of trophies so you can't have like you know here the whole kneelander thing is because of salary cap we're

all worried about how do we get marner and matthews and kind of but this this can't exist in the premier league model no no salary cap no anybody can pay wages to whatever they want you know we take a guy like i say an example that i'm going to use manchester united yeah they want alexis sanchez the the Chilean international who's been a brilliant player for a decade, played for Barcelona, Arsenal, Chilean national team and they wanted him so badly, they got him

cheap in terms of transfer fee, but they paid him £300,000, £400,000 a week and he's been a flop. He's not kicked the ball. So they buy a guy at 30, they pay him crazy amounts of money they give him a 4 or 5 year contract now they're lumped with that contract, they want

him to leave basically and they're trying to push him out but they're going to have to swallow at least half of that, whereas you get a man City who go and spend on a young French defender Laporte who was playing in Spain, Bobao they bring him in, they pay crazy money for him,

60 million or something, but this guy's really good, and he's going to be good for 10 years, so it was a smart signing, and I think Liverpool, Manchester City, are a great example of making smart signings just now, they're at the top, and they're signing the right guys,

at the right time, at the right stage of their career, and they're letting ones go, because they just feel like, no, it doesn't make financial sense, Manchester City. We're in for Sanchez as well and once the number got to a certain level, we're out. We don't

want him anymore. We don't think he's value for that and I think that has to be recognised and that's why they're the best two teams. I am actually being educated here. I think now I would consider myself a soccer expert. Maybe see if any more analysts are required. But do you remember your...

This comes from Mike. Mike wants to know, can you talk about... You must remember your first goal you scored for TFC. I only scored one goal, so I remember it well, Mike. Is that right?

Yeah. I should have checked my stats here. I scored one, yeah. All right, tell me about... Okay, because he worded it like this. Scoring his first ever TFC goal against Montreal. And I assumed, based on the way he worded it, that it must have been the first in a series.

You know what I mean? I actually scored another one against Portland and he ruled it for offside. So I was devastated, Barry. No, but one against Montreal was great it was at BMO Field a crazy game actually, we started it

horrendously, we went a goal down in like 20 seconds and I'm like oh here we go and then we went back into lead 2-1 and my buddy who came over from New Zealand the same time as me, Jeremy Brockie played here for a few games a great friend of mine, he's now playing in South Africa

he whipped it in from the right hand side and I met it and put it into the net great feeling to always score a goal but I ended up 3-3 that game I'm sure, it was crazy it was a wild game, just defences were wide open

unfortunately I was playing defense. Oh, yeah. That's funny. One in a series, I was thinking. One in a series. But that's okay. Listen, because you were the... I don't know how they do the voting,

but I have it down in my notes here. You were the 2013 best player on TFC years. Is that a voting thing? We don't have an official player of the year at TFC,c years is that like a how's that is that a voting we don't have an official player of the year at tfc but what we do is this different supporters group usually have a vote gotcha one of the big supporters groups the uh red patch boys oh yeah and they awarded me with the the 2013 they're not the one that got in trouble for setting the fire in montreal but red patch boys gave me that award It was pretty special because

They do something really cool They actually make a scarf And you know it has 2013 player of the year And then they digitally Put your face on the scarf And it's incredible You have to see this Barry Where is that right now?

They gave me 15 scarves So I gave a few away and i kept some back and uh you know i've got some in my house for sure but a real great honor to receive the award but i love the scarf it's absolutely amazing and a unique thing i've never seen that before earlier you told me so your sons are 10 and 11 yeah right how could they afford an apple watch i want to know are they mowing lawns well i'm pretty sure they Were they mowing lawns? Well, I'm pretty sure they were actually paying. They're not mowing lawns,

I can assure you of that. I was just thinking, because I got a, he's almost 17, but he gives me like these gum. I get gum and stuff like that. Where's my Apple Watch? Or a scarf with your face on it.

That's another great gift. Are you kidding me? I'd wear it everywhere. I would never take it off. I'd sleep in that thing. Do you think, that story's interesting though, the supporters giving you the scarf with the face

because I think, you know, Mike, we think about when we grew up in Toronto and you might see a Toronto Maple Leaf here or there and I don't know that you would have been scared. We idolized them. You'd see them on Yonge Street. I remember Dave Ellett walking on Yonge Street.

You walked by me. I'm like, there's Dave Ellett walking on Yonge Street. You walked by me. I'm like, there's Dave Ellett. Absolutely. But I just feel like we're removed for the most part in a big market city like Toronto. We're fairly removed from our athletes. I can't imagine giving a bunch of supporters getting together to give Austin Matthews a scarf

and then having Austin Matthews come in here and talk about it and say, wow, that was amazing. But there is a bond, even in the premier, even in the big football leagues in the world there seems to be a relationship between the athletes and the fans that doesn't exist in other sports would you would you agree with that have you have you talked to athletes in other sports about that like what's your how's your take on that yeah i've not really talked to other athletes about it barry and so i always hate commenting on other sports i'm'm not that knowledgeable about, but I know for a fact that soccer's a community sport.

It really is. I think about the experiences I've had with the different teams and getting back to the Northeast, or I could go through every single team, but there's that affinity there with the fans. If you're the type of guy, and I'm glad I always was, that had that affinity with the fans and if you if you're the type of guy and i'm glad i always was that had that affinity with the fans had that special relationship so then they appreciate what you're trying to do and they get behind you and that it makes it so much easier and it just

takes a little bit of time out your day to go and you know i'm sure when i'm getting presented with an award i want to be there I want to accept it on my behalf I went along on a Saturday night spent two hours with the Red Patch Boys I've been at different things with Kings in the North and U Sector and I've been to loads of supporters functions through TFC and I always like to give back I'm a big guy that likes to be in the community I think it's really really important to just spend a couple of hours every month or every few weeks to say thank you and uh when you get an award like that i certainly wanted to say it and um it meant a lot to me i think it's the only individual award that i got in my career it really was and and so it was important to me and um yeah i'm thankful for it it's the only

award but they gave you 15 of them yeah so you can say i got 15 awards that's what i would say it'd be my wiki my bio so barry i uh get on that mic for a second because i'm going to ask you some questions about about you uh barry carlisle of barry the city you're from right just kidding of course you're not from here i really did steven i thought his name was carlisle and he was just being cute i thought he was being cute and then i found out his name was Carlisle, and he was just being cute. I thought he was being cute. And then I found out his name was, because you know why? Every Barry I've met up to now spells it B-A-R-R-Y.

Yeah. Okay? This gentleman spells it B-A-R-R-I-E, which to me is the city, Barry. You messed with me there. So tell me, though, Barry, just before maybe you take over, You messed with me there. So tell me though, Barry, just before maybe you take over,

speaking with Stephen about the importance of winning culture in sports. Before you do that, you listen to Toronto Mic, right? I do. Die hard. And I saw a tweet about this, but I'm going to pretend everyone listening hasn't seen this tweet.

You have like a Mount Rushmore of guests? A Hall of Fame. That's right the mount rushmore who is uh obviously steven caldwell will go on this yeah absolutely prior to that right on assuming he doesn't blow it at the end right not over yet that's right who's on the in the hall of fame uh in your opinion you know um mike richards and and you try to be unbiased between people that you actually like when you hear them on their show or you read their media work online versus who they are as guests. Because those things aren't always equal.

I'm sure you've had people in here who you thought were just fabulous in media and then they come in here and maybe they're not the greatest guests. So I'm trying to be unbiased. I loved what Mike Richards did when he was on TSN 1050 and look forward to him moving to this talk radio station in Mississauga. But he's also been a fabulous guest. I thought he was honest. I thought he was loyal. He talks about the people like Dave Bastel who have supported him in his career and he was absolutely unabashed in his support for

people who have supported him. So your shows with Mike Richards to me are really kind of the gold standard. There's been three, right? You know as well as I do. I've heard all three and really the gold standard. Damien Cox, who I know can be a controversial figure in Toronto sports media. He's a polarizing. He is.

Everyone likes Steven, but not everyone likes Damien. And I've got to be honest, because I've always liked Damien Cox. I just never felt him to be polarizing. And he's, again, honest guest, kind of what you'd hope if you bumped into him at a coffee shop or at a bar. I thought him very conversational, and he's a tremendous guest. And did you notice each time he came over, he was warmer than the time before? Yeah, he was. That's right. Because the first time, I thought he was a little chilly the first time. And the second time, you know, we kicked out the jams, and it was more about his kids, and I was warming up to the guy.

But that third time, I mean, we're buddies now. So, yeah, the fourth time, we're going to be probably on the same microphone, I think. By the way, so Damien, I told you this story before we started recording that Damien, even when he's at the top of the stairwell coming down, it's his third visit, and he said to me,

and I did say this before we recorded, right? Yeah, I was going to say, I'm repeating my stories. I'm losing it. He said, I know, I know, I need to watch my head. And I laughed and chuckled. Okay, he knows that low ceilings, he's been here, I'm repeating my stories. I'm losing it. He said, I know, I know, I need to watch my head. And I laughed and chuckled. Okay, he knows that low ceilings. He's been here, this is his third time. He still slammed his head against the ceiling.

And he's got no hair on his head. He doesn't have that mullet he used to have. It's gone. So he had a, like, it looked like he was bleeding. Like, it was a pretty good gash on the top of his head, right? And I felt terrible right off the bat. But in the middle of this episode okay i'm telling the story you this is all very uh no one could tell because but you you left the microphone because you wanted to use the facilities uh which is fine because we were going to hear a lot of steven so you could

disappear and nobody would notice i could i could pretend that's when i started talking with his kids because i couldn't talk about the English soccer clubs. But you slammed your head pretty good and Stephen tried not to react and he did a great job. You're a consummate professional. He should be in broadcasting if TSN's listening.

Barry, are you okay? I'm fine. I am fine. Thank you very much. It must have hurt. It hurt a little bit, but it's not the first time. Is it bleeding? I don't think it's bleeding, but you might hear from my lawyer later. Even though I warned you? I feel like you consented.

If you rewind this episode about 22 minutes, you're going to hear that. Somebody's going to hear that bang. It was pretty significant. I give you guys credit for keeping a straight face. We were looking at each other, and I think I did some hand gestures or something. And Stephen, like a pro,

just like that day the lines were painted improperly. I remember that. Yeah. It was amazing. But I would be remiss if I didn't talk about

the Joe Tilly episode and not to get into it because it got pretty deep. You didn't get into it. That's what we're here for. It got pretty deep because I didn't know that story. I mean, I grew up

watching Joe Tilly and I used to watch CTV News a lot. And he talked about Fergie Oliver, who is a legend in Toronto sports to some extent and was the guy who broadcast the first Jays division win in 85. He called that game

when George Bell caught that final out. And so Joe Tilley is really a part of how the Toronto sports scene grew up in the 80s and 90s. And he really got serious about his own personal demons and things that have happened in his life. And I was on a flight back from Chicago

when I was listening to it. Yeah. And, you know, I didn't want the plane to land. Like I really wanted to hear the absolute end of that episode. That may be the highest praise I've ever received. Oh, and it was. Don't want the plane to land.

It didn't want the plane to land. Along with read the liner notes. I think those are your two highest forms of praise. That's an Inside Toronto Mike joke. No, we don't want Stephen to know about that. Inside Toronto Mike joke. I haven't even told Stephen about that one. But no, that was amazing.

And again, somebody that I grew up watching and really liked, by the way. I always thought he had a very genuine style. And then for him to come in here and be honest the way he was on this show, it was one of the best podcasts I've ever listened to. Well, the best guests, as you know, and I think you know because you've mentioned Mike Richards

and even Damien Cox, who for a guy who's gainfully employed in mainstream media, he's ridiculously honest. Absolutely. A lot of people are a little safer because they work for the big cable company, but he was just shooting from the hip

as if he was Mike Richards going to CKNT or something. It was pretty amazing. So you and I both appreciate those really raw and honest episodes and they're the best. But you mentioned, there was another,

was it Steve Anthony? Steve Anthony. I mean, my goodness. If you grew up in Toronto at a certain time and the birth of Much Music, coming out of the new music, really out of City TV,

had a friend who worked at City TV and Much Music for years and so was able to meet some of those folks. And Steve Anthony, CFNY, think about him before, Humble and Fred. Yeah, he was hosting with Fred. He was awesome with Fred. I think Steve Anthony was fantastic in every role he's had, including his job at CP24.

Do you know he's the boy in the box? He is the boy in the box because I heard it on your episode. That's how I know that. I know that. And again, just coming in here and you'd think a guy who maybe was really cautious about managing his image because he just had, he was very, you know, he's a big name Toronto guy. And he came in here and just laid it all on the line. And yeah, Steve Anthony was great. I'll tell you a story.

My wife and I went to, they have symphony in the park at Casa Loma. This is something that we do in Toronto in the summer. And somehow we got shuffled into a table that was right at the front. There's two summers ago. Yeah. And we're sitting at the front in this VIP table, I think by accident. And as I looked down on the table, there's a little card that says, Mr. Steve Anthony. Wow. So we're sitting at his seats at Casa Loma.

And I was all, so I'm thinking in my head, my God, he's going to sit down with me. And it's a different Steve Anthony. No, no. Eventually the waiter just came and took the card. Steve Anthony called in, said he wasn't coming and you could let.

Those are good seats. You're in the media seats. Oh, they were fabulous seats. They were great. Also, people don't get to Casa Loma very often. That was really something. I was going to say, that's amazing.

But yeah, I love Steve Anthony and thought his episode was fantastic. Episodes. Preaching to the choir here. Yeah. Yeah. He had two episodes and I got to get him back. Now that he's completely out of me, now imagine Unleashed.

100%. See, I'm glad. I wanted to get Barry Carlyle's Hall of Fame just so I could sit here and hear how much he enjoys my podcast. I do. And I won't even put Steven on the spot and ask him his favorite episode because...

I think it's going to be 405. Just a guess. So, Barry, here we are, 136. Please take it from here. Take us home. Maybe you can engage with Stephen on the importance of winning culture. Well, I think that's great.

There's two things about Stephen's story that have always resonated with me. And we'll talk a little bit about the personal transition in a moment because I think that's really interesting and important as well. But also the notion of a professional athlete who's played for numerous teams,

which I think is an opportunity. I think it's terrific that you had that exposure. I'm a huge fan and disciple of Alex Ferguson. I think he's just absolutely brilliant at what he does and what he did do. We talked a little bit about Tim Laiweke bringing a culture to TFC and to the broader MLSC group when you were here. Maybe tell me about other places you've played where you felt as you walked in that dressing room for the first time or on that practice pitch for the first time, you felt a culture and what did that mean and and what was the impact upon you as a player yeah i think that for me i've been fortunate that i've actually been at a lot

of clubs where i've been at the beginning of that culture so i've never really walked in somewhere where the culture was there and i'm like this is already developed so it's been a special experience to be part of the building of that culture and And to me, it's interesting that you can get it in different ways. You know, you always think of culture as being the same things and it's buzzwords and everybody says the same stuff, but it's living that culture. It's actually believing in it and it becoming you or becoming that group.

It's not an easy thing to bring together 20 25 athletes from all over the world different ethnicities and nationalities and mindsets and to bring them together with one common goal and how to achieve that goal takes great leadership so the beginning of any great culture is a great leader and then to me there needs to be a real pyramid effect from that body there needs to be a guy at the top that barry there needs to be a guy at the top who's clearly the normally it's the manager in soccer it's maybe the general manager of the president in north american sport but a real guy at the top who has the vision and the strategy of what he wants the non-negotiables like i mentioned earlier the things that are just

essential for success now formations and style of play and even personnel come and go. It's that non-negotiables. It's the seven, eight, 10, 15 things that you say, this is us. This is what we are all about. This is our DNA. This is our identity. And then below that, there comes,

fortunately for me, I was near the top in terms of that. I was a captain or I was one of the leadership group. And then everybody kind of falls into place within that pyramid, that hierarchy. And maybe that's a bit of a controversial thing to say because everybody always says in teams, everybody's equal and everybody's together. It's not true. Everybody's not equal.

And that doesn't mean that the guy at the bottom of the pyramid, and by the way, the bottom of the pyramid's the base, so it's just as important as the top doesn't have as strong a voice or doesn't have a very important part to play it just means he understands where he is in the machine what his part is where he's trying to develop that guy might be wanting to try to move up and he eventually does i did it i was at the bottom of the pyramid one day in newcastle and even at Sunderland until I managed to go up and up and up the pyramid. But I understood where my role was in that team. I understood what my strengths were.

I knew myself really, really well. And these are all key things to me in creating a culture, creating values and creating a real team identity. And I had it at a lot of of places but i definitely had it at sunderland we had extreme accountability we had a a volatile changing room we had a coach who loved confrontation and it was an aggressive place to be and i don't know how long you could last in that environment because it was so intense that maybe you would burn out but we were successful and we were successful with not

a lot of talent we were successful with successful sorry because of accountability and then Burnley where it was another experience where I had it and in droves as well was because we had a leader and Owen Coyle who was our manager after Steve who created clear identity and roles for every single player and you knew you stood in that. And there was 10 or 12 leaders in that team, but everybody understood their role and their individual expertise within that team. And we just had astounding success, really.

Nobody, nobody, nobody expected that success from their group of players. It was a real gelling of different personalities that worked for that team when i hear talk about individual roles in a sporting sense what input if any do you have as the player like does the manager show up and say okay i've looked at my roster and i've decided here are the 11th from the starting 11th yeah here are the starting 11 roles and you're all going to have this role or does he bring each one of you in and and say you know steven i'm interested in what you think you do really well and how am i going to incorporate that into these 11 subsections

of of roles that i'm creating i mean tell me a bit about whether there's back and forth or or do you actually respect a manager who comes in and says uh you know what i'm in charge and and here's the 11 roles we're going to run with so again there's different ways of doing it you know what, I'm in charge and here's the 11 roles we're going to run with. So again, there's different ways of doing it. I've had managers before who would call me up as a captain and talk about team personnel, which I was not comfortable with because I don't want to be part of that. My job is to be a sounding board and someone to go to for anybody in that team. So I can't be part of picking that team

I've also had it where I obviously know more than the average player so I was part of maybe team decisions or things that were going on which I respect, any captain needs to know what he can tell his team and what he can't tell his team but he needs to know, or the team needs to know

that he has their back I think there's different ways of doing it i like someone who takes in the information and then leads you know so it's a case of us three guys or 10 guys sitting in a room hearing everybody's point of view you have the sports scientist point of view he wants to tell you what's important in terms of physical numbers for the team you have the coach who wants to work on wide play or whatever that may be you have the uh the physio who wants to protect his winger because he knows he's got a tight hamstring so everybody has their own individual wants and aims from a training session or from a week's training and the manager

has to absorb all that information and say this is is what's happening. This is the best for the team. And I think the best managers do that. They take in that information and then they come out with a clear leadership identity. This is what we're going to do today or this week or this season. And I've seen that. And then I've seen when it unravels

where everybody thinks they've got a voice, where the manager's backing forward with different players and maybe asking too many opinions, where everybody thinks that they are in charge or that their way of doing it is right, and then it's just complete anarchy. You need to know who the leader is. You need to make sure you have that.

I don't like the word hierarchy, but you know what I'm trying to say, that kind of level. He's in charge when he decides that's the vision and that's what we're going with. Someone has to be accountable. Yes. Right.

Yes. Yeah. Your transition from the game, you know, I think about you and your brother. Your brother's in management and he's made a bit of a management career for himself in football in the UK. Yeah.

You were able to bridge into a role with MLSC and now with TSN and some of the other work that you're doing within soccer. You must have played with some guys who, when it was over, that transition was not as clear. Yeah. You know, how worried are you when you think about some of the teammates that you've played with about guys who just can't, what comes next is just completely unknown to them. And what happens to some of these guys?

What are some of the stories, maybe without names, but just people you played with who you know, wow, in their retirement it's going to be a real challenge? First and foremost, a real challenge for everybody. Whether you're really lucky and you move into a brilliant role, doing exactly what you want, nothing's playing football. Nothing's that thing uh competition um fitness uh pressure routine preparation nothing can provide what professional sports does for an athlete

so that's always going to be a transition and that's a morning period and that's a period of time that you just have to go through many people are fortunate to have a job when they're doing that a lot of people aren't and so they have that mental aspect of sitting around their house hopefully a lot of them have enough money in the uk playing soccer that they're not really worrying about paying their bills but some of them are and so then you have that on top they have a family to look after and it's very very tough and i've saw i've spoke to a number of people friends of mine who have went through that majority of them are in good positions they're lucky enough they have jobs my brother being one of them but

my brother's a good example he had a very successful career made great money in the game played 55 times for sc, won the FA Cup with Wigan, won the Scottish League, won the League Cup with Celtic had a brilliant career retired through his hips at an early age real challenge retiring, he was 32 I think he was

when he retired so he thought he had loads of football in him, I saw how that affected him, moved into coaching role and moved right into a role with Wigan Athletic, where he was the head coach. League One Manager of the Year at 34. And then sacked. Out the game for a bit.

Terrible time at Chesterfield. A tough club. Out the game for almost a year recently until he took the job in Scotland and the challenges that that brings mentally. Now, this is a guy that's thankfully not looking to pay his bills as such, but wants to work. All he knows is work since he was 16

and he can't get back in because there's thousands of people trying to get back in and trying to get a job. And what you have to be careful of is is depression getting down sitting in your house not working hard so i saw him visit celtic brendan rogers for three or four days uh had a lunch with alex ferguson sir alex ferguson alex ferguson i have to say absolutely magnificent with with the League Managers Association the LMA Gary does a lot

of work with the guys Alex met him for a two hour lunch telling stories and just you know assuring him this is such a big thing

you've got Alex Ferguson and David Moyes and Sam Allardyce and these guys that have been at the top of English football for 20 years

give back so much because they know how tough it is they know how tough it is. They know how tough it is. They know what these managers go through. And he kept developing and he kept analysing and working on his presentations and working on his job interview techniques, working on his tactics and honing in his skills

so that when he gets his next job, he's prepared for that. Now, that's a guy who's going to be a coach. It's the same for all of us. We need to use a skill set that got us to be successful professional football players, whether it's broadcasting, whether it's coaching,

or it's in business development, or whatever your role is, you use that same skill set that you've learned. You work extremely hard, you listen and you learn and you improve. And if you have that mindset, then you can be successful in another walk of life. Sort of one final question before we turn it back to Mike, where do you, where do you see MLS on a global scale in the next generation? Is it, is it ever

going to be near the top European leagues? Um, you tell me what you, maybe what you hope for and where you think MLS is going to get to in terms of competitiveness. I think MLS will be the best league in the world. I do. And that is a very bold statement. I don't know how long that will take, but to me it's inevitable that MLS will be that big. I think

that when we look at the diversity in North America, we look at maybe there's some kind of collaboration with League MX in Mexico, which obviously is a very successful league. And we see the money that can be generated through sport or through business in North America. To me, it's inevitable that eventually,

as this game starts to develop, and it is a generational thing, so I think it will probably take 30 or 40 years and we see this generation that are maybe not playing so much now but are in the game their kids are going to be a little bit better we're going to improve the grass roots we're going to see the development

of the game get better and better in Canada and indeed the US of A I think that we're going to be look at Atlanta, you've seen Atlanta last week, they're playing New York Red Bulls there's 72,000 is it there

it's red and black and gold on the ends, I'm like this is legitimate, now they're playing on turf so there's issues, like there's always issues they're playing on turf, it should be grass but it's coming, it's getting there, there's people watching in these cities and there's core base.

We talked about Toronto, Montreal a few years ago and what that meant, how that sounded. It's just building and building and it's not going to stop. It's just going to keep getting better and better. A lot of these leagues in Europe, Premier League's very successful.

It's massive, of course. You have Real Madrid, you have Barcelona, you have Serie A and a bit of a renaissance. A lot of these leagues in Europe are actually struggling a little bit. There's not as many people in the seats as there used to be. There's not as much revenue being generated through the game. Yes, there's TV coming in and paying a lot of revenue,

but you're not trying to tell me if we're starting to get the best players in Europe coming here at 25-26 that TV deals are not going to go through the roof here in North America as we're seeing a stadium like

Mercedes-Benz we're going to see it on Saturday December 8th for MLS Cup it's going to be like nothing you've ever seen

it's going to be unbelievable and this is the flagship game in our league and I just think we're going to keep rising and rising and rising until inevitably it's the biggest game in our league. And I just think we're going to keep rising and rising and rising

until inevitably it's the biggest league in the world. Now, Stephen, I know you're going to do a podcast with Christian, but have you considered bringing Barry into it? Because you guys were good. Thank you, Mike. This is my audition tape, Mike. Thank you for that. In 405 episodes, that's the longest period of time without me,

which is, I'm fine with that. This is great. I'll hand over the keys anytime. Barry, thanks for doing this. I appreciate it. Yeah, I'll let you keep the lasagna. I was going to say it was just for show,

give it to me. My kids are going to be hungry tonight, but you can bring that home. Stephen, what a pleasure. Thanks, mate. Good luck with TSN. You're a fantastic broadcaster, a natural-born leader, and if you have an extra

scarf that you got from the Red Patch boys, next time you're on, you're going to bring that over. I'll bring it for you, mate. Thank you. You're going to come back and kick up the jams with me one day. I'd love to come back. And it can't be all Proclaimers. You've got to mix it up a little bit. Mix it up. I love it. Your choices were excellent. And that brings us to the end of our 405th show.

You can follow me on Twitter. I'm at Toronto Mike. Stephen is at Steve O. Caldwell. Barry, which of your 16 burner accounts do you want to share? Let's try at Culture Conduit. At Culture Conduit At Culture Conduit I like that Do you have

CultureConduit.com Does that exist yet? It should I know I'll talk to you later That's right I'll see what TMDS can do for you

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