Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Stormin' Norman Rumack: Toronto Mike'd #626

Episode Date: April 22, 2020

Mike chats with Stormin' Norman Rumack about life after sports media.

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and the Kightner group they love helping buyers find their dream home text Toronto Mike to five nine five five nine I'm Mike from Toronto Mike.com. And joining me is the man formerly known as the late night vampire, Stormin Norman Rumack.

Thank you, Mike. I appreciate it. Hey, congratulations. The last time I came to see you was in the spring of 2016. And at that time, you had two sponsors. You had the beer company and you had a real estate lawyer, dude. And now it's like, holy smokes, you're like network TV. It takes like five minutes to run your spot. That's awesome, Mike. Congratulations. Norm, thanks so much. The brewery, Great Lakes,

they were the first in, so it's really an honour to still have them as a proud sponsor of the program. Did I give you beer when you were here? Actually, yes, you did. You gave me beer and a beer mug. Oh, yeah.

Brian, yeah. I still got your gift. There was something else, I can't recall, but yeah. Brian had... Yeah, I still got your gift. There was something else I can't recall, but yeah, thanks for the gift. I still have them. No, dude,

I really enjoyed that visit and I'm just going to let the people listening know that if they want to go back and listen to the... I call that the A to Z

of your career in sports media. It's the 235th episode. And the description I wrote at the time is Mike chats with Norman Rumack about his long run on the Fan 590, being

the late night vampire, hammerhead alerts, and so much more. How many people tuned or checked that one out? Millions. Millions. that one out? Millions, millions. You're smart. You know how to butter up the talent before the show begins, Mike.

That's good. I like that. I once worked on a program where they had approximately, I'm going to make up numbers, but they had like 775 unique downloads and issued a press release that 10,000 people listened to the program. That's, I guess, the new math, right? Well, I guess they call that spin doctoring, I think.

Yeah, that's a little more appropriate. You're 100% right. That's funny. So, Norm, firstly, I want to just say thanks to Chris in Oshawa because he actually put the bug in my ear to reach out to you and do this because he asked me a simple question. He said, how's Norm Rumak doing? And then I said, I don't know. I need to ask Norm.

So can we get an update? And no specifics because we're going to build this up and then tell everybody about your livelihood and all that stuff. But how are you feeling? How are you doing? How are your spirits? Yeah, well, I'm, you know, obviously everybody in the world's got this dark cloud of COVID-19 hanging over them. So, I mean, to say how am I doing, thank God, as far as I know, physically I'm okay.

But it ties into the work I do. I know physically I'm okay, but it ties into the work I do. The work I do since I last saw you a year later, I found doing podcasts and freelance work, it's coffee money. It's go on your vacation money for the summer or something. Beer money. I mean, you're doing well, and God bless you. You've done exceptionally well, but you're also a full-time attorney, so're doing well and God bless you. You're done exceptionally well, but you're also a full-time attorney. So you've done it the smart way. Anyway, I realized I've got to make a full-time living, you know, and I can't go back to school at age 60, whatever.

And let's say I got straight A's, you know, in pre-meds or straight A's in law. No one's going to hire a 60 year old. I don't care how smart you are. They're just not. It's too late in life to go back to school and be an engineer. I did check out what else I could do. There was a course at Seneca College I was interested in, because my background, obviously, is doing radio communications and whatnot, to be a 911 dispatcher. But the thing is, you know, to go to the police force at age 60 plus, hey, I'd like to do dispatch. Well, they got guys there who are probably in their 20s and 30s, like, well, it makes sense.

They're going to keep guys who are already, you know, who've got years and decades ahead of them as opposed to some guy who's, you know, in the final third of the planet that he's on. So, I mean, I've got to be realistic. So, anyway, long and short of it, if I can mention it, the best career counseling I ever got was from the YMCA. It's ymca.org. I was struggling badly to figure out what can I do to make a living?

And, like, you know, make a living so for years onwards like what would be a good fit for someone at my age you know and so YMCA it only took them it was remarkable I don't have a lady's name in front of me she was a gift from God for me how did you get how did you get connected to the what did you just google this or no no I was I was like death you know when I when I started looking for other things to do to make a living, it was like early 2017. I'd had some sponsors, but, you know, they had their own needs.

They'd been with me for a number of years. They had other things. They had to take care of themselves and their families, so I couldn't rely on that. So in early 2017, I started looking. I even went to restaurants where I frequented as a guest, as a customer. I said, hey, can I be a busboy? And there was always some problem. Not a problem, but they had other people doing it, or they wanted their own kids to do that.

People owned the restaurant. And where am I going to start? First of all, I think my age. I know there's a thing about ages, and we've got to be realistic. Certain kinds of businesses, probably most of them, they want to hire people who are going to be around for 10 20 30 years so i've got that to deal with and plus my background is media you know that's what my education is that's what my work background is so like who's going to train someone to do something different like at that age so i've got all these you know strikes uh-like strikes against me already.

Right. And my age. Anyway, long and short of it, I presented this to a counselor I was speaking with at YMCA. They have a counseling office up at Dufferin and Finch, actually, right beside the courthouse there, provincial courthouse. And so within a few minutes, he says, hey, how about security? I said, well, sure. He's like, well, they know somebody who runs know runs security company just for the record because that's what i'm doing i'm not going to name the company or the place that i'm working obviously for my own security but in any case they hooked me up with a security company um i had to get by for like the power

like the from when i saw you 2016 because when money was dropping off until I got to this career counseling in July of 2017. I had pretty much usurped all my retirement savings, not all at once. I'm not, you know, I didn't go crazy spending. It's like I had to use it along after my, you know, severance in the eye ran out from the fan situation. I did, you know, they brought me back. Don Collins brought me back for a couple years. And it was understood that if TSN stopped doing overnight Canadian local programming, then the fan would also.

They put me on because TSN was doing local overnight. So they didn't want to leave TSN radio with a competitive edge. Anyways, I did that, and then TSN stopped doing their stuff at the end of 2012. So that brought an end to my two-year return which i was grateful for i'm still in touch with don collins by the way um you know i was always grateful that he brought me back it was a big statement on my behalf like for me to bring me back uh so in any case i knew i had to do something else so they put me in touch security company because i'd gone through all my retirement savings. The bank forwarded my bank, Scotiabank, I'll give them a plug because they really wanted to back me, forwarded a note to YMCA, hey, can you guys pick up the tab?

And YMCA, and they did. They paid my $250 to do one week's training with a security firm. I did the training. Within a month, I got got my license all security guards are provincially licensed now as a result of a tragedy that happened about 15 20 years ago involving some guards in a person but anyway it's a separate story anyway i got licensed i got hired by the firm with the same firm on the overnight concierge of a nice prestigious place in north york prestigious condo that is not place and that's what keeps me busy. And it goes to your first question about how am I feeling? I'm feeling fine. But, you know, because concierge people, I mean, I know most people kind of cynically look at security guards as all pretending cops. Well, OK, I understand that. I perfectly understand how people feel about that. But

right now in this situation with COVID, you know, we're the first ones who people see when they're bringing in groceries for their relatives or whoever they know living in the building, which is the case in a lot of places now, or when, you know, parcels are delivered. Now we don't know, you know, the health of the people coming in. All we can do is, you know, ask them to stop and leave the packages there, but we handle all this stuff. And I travel to work to and from on subway. Most people now are pretty good about it. They are spacing. When I'm going, because I work overnight, it's lightly traveled and same first thing in the morning. But, Mike, I don't have to tell you.

It's like, you know, at least in the back of my mind, there's this morbid fear. What if I, you know, forget to sanitize one part of my hands or I just, you know, absent-minded for a second on whatever? of my hands or I just, you know, absent-minded for a second on whatever, you know, and there's, like I say, it's such a contagious virus that, you know, something pure accident can happen. Someone sneezes when they walk by, you know, intentionally or, and anyways, it's, so yeah, that's in the back of my mind. Thank God so far. Okay. But you know, the company has been good to us. Every, all of us who are working, I've taken on extra hours. A lot of people, probably not just the company I work for, but others that have booked off sick. They've had, I understand, absenteeism is up around 50% for the company, at least it was, I work with for varying reasons.

So those of us who've worked our regular shift and taken on extra hours are adding $2 an hour to every shift we've done the last month. And we're going to do the same for the next month. So that helps. And so anyway, that's what I'm doing. I'm doing fine, but I'm always aware in the back of my mind, God forbid the worst can happen. I'm just trying to get through it. And it's so sad to read about all the people here and worldwide who've been stricken with it. It's like, my late parents used to tell me about, you know, they grew up in Toronto during the Great Depression and my father served in the Canadian

Forces in World War II. My mom used to tell me during the Great Depression that sometimes dinner for her and her three siblings was, I mean, imagine this, dinner was bread and applesauce during the Great Depression. Can you imagine that? That was dinner. Those were tough times.

These are tough times. But let me just say congrats to you, Norm, on the new gig and the new industry. That's good news. Yeah, that's one of the fields that's growing, and it's one of the ones where in this crisis, you know, they're looking for more people. They can't get enough

as opposed to being laid off. But anyway, it's something I can do, God willing, for many, many years if I'm healthy. And I certainly, even if I had a lot of money, I don't think I'd ever want to retire. But at least it's something I can go to work every day and I have a chance to grow in a field. It's a field that's in demand too. So thank the Lord for that. Now, do any people that you're servicing in this new security job, do any of them know that you're Storm and Norman Rumak? Oh, yeah. Well, yeah.

I don't mean that in an arrogant. I don't want anything. I mean that like, oh, yeah. Like, I didn't expect that. But, yeah, people with the guys who trained me, actually, at this company, they knew right away. I mean, they recognized the name. Right. company they knew uh right away i mean they recognized the name right i'm only laughing because the the guy who was does like undercover work he's like this company's version of of clint

eastwood but a real one you know like tough quiet and don't mess with them because you're you're going to be done like dinner if you do right but anyway uh I had an extra Hammerhead Alert shirt, so he asked me to autograph it. I was quite honored, so I did. But yeah, and people in the building that I work, a lot of them, you know, their age range is, let's say, 60 and up. So yeah, quite a few of the fellas were my listeners. And, you know, some of the guys or their relatives come by, and, you know, we'll talk sports a little bit and all that stuff.

Do they ask you to give them a hammerhead alert? Like the actual, do you give them a hammerhead alert? Well, you know, I mean, I occasionally get guys who do that for fun. Or I get people on my Facebook page. If you hear a little beep in the background, it's one of those annoying 1-800 numbers. We wish you'd tell them to get lost. Anyways, they did get lost, so thanks for that. But anyways, yeah, I get people who, well, you know, ask me about hammerhead alerts, and then I'm on my Facebook page, you know, I'll post articles I just think are interesting, and

And on my Facebook page, I'll post articles I just think are interesting because I politically lean to the left. I get all the right-wing types giving me grief on my Facebook. I don't even have to tell you about that. No shame in that, Norm. I mean, you already know where that's going and who the primary focus of discussion is, a guy on Pennsylvania Avenue. So anyways, then they don't like what i'm saying you know norm you're such a hammerhead and usually it's words even beyond that but so i i still

thank god that that word and i'll give you know i like to be honest yeah mike so i don't know if everyone no one's ever asked me like how do i come up with the phrase hammerhead and hammerhead alert so i'll tell you how I do it. I give credit where credit is due. In the early days of the fan, you know, one of my good buddies I used to hang out with, you know, we were both the same age and we used to just kibitz around, tell jokes and whatnot, and have fun during shows, was Tim Happy. Tim did updates.

And I think, you know, until a couple of years ago, he was doing updates for TSN radio. So anyways, when we'd get some, let's say, bizarre callers, or situations not necessarily to do with what's going on on the air, but just people who do crazy things or say something stupid or whatever, my friend Tim would just say, oh, that guy was a hammerhead. So, and now here's this clown. Have you ever seen an 800 number call twice in five minutes? I almost feel like answering.

It's like, go away. Bye. But I won't do that. Yeah, don't worry. We can't really hear you. I wish I had a hammerhead alert to program into my phone for calls I don't want. But anyway, so happens in the middle of your show. So Tim and I were talking, and it's like he used this phrase, hammerhead,

to talk about someone who did something stupid or was a jerk or whatever. I thought, wow, I just like the term. So I started, when I got into, you know, as people recall, my heated arguments with my biases. Right. I figured I'd just throw that out there. And then I just thought, you know, because obviously I was a magnet for getting, you know, I have guys still coming up to me like, oh, yeah, I used to call you on the air to piss you off and get a reaction. You know, it was like monster trucks, right? People wanted to hear yelling.

I used to have cops who told me they were on stakeouts, right? Like doing undercover work. You know, and they're out for hours on end and nothing's happening until they find the person the situation is looking for. And they would listen just because it was different, right? Well, Norm, you know... They get in those screaming matches. Let me pass on a few notes for you here.

But you know, of course, Brad Fay from Sportsnet. Yeah, of course. So Brad, he is a good man, a good FOTM like yourself. And he just wrote me a quick note to say that you, Norm, were his company on the way home from every late shift Sports Central in the early days. It was a half-hour commute at 2 a.m., every late shift Sports Central in the early days. It was a half-hour commute at 2 a.m., and the late-night vampire was on his Mustangs radio.

Wow. That's nice to hear. I mean, obviously, Brad's done great work for so many years, and I know him, but I didn't know that. So that's, I mean, I'm honored anytime anybody tells me, whether was in the past or now that they used to tune me in or, you know, however it came about. But it's always nice to, I mean, occasionally, you know, I did a visit to the fan 2017 just before I started my security work. And it was an anniversary show for I'm losing track of the numbers already it was whatever because it was fall right so anyway it was some kind of anniversary show so I was on for three hours with my buddy Roger Lajoie and um uh so I remember we

were going back in time and and we were talking about people who listened to us. And a lot of the young producers who were there two years ago, some of them on air, some of them still producing, told me that I, you know, a few of them are, you know, I don't know, five, six, seven, eight, whatever. Told me that, you know, what I was doing on the air inspired them to go into the, you know, journalism radio profession. So that's something, you know, you can't you can't frame it, you can't pin it on your shirt, but it's something that you carry with you. If people, whatever they thought of the show, if they got the bug, so to speak, I mean in a good way, to go into the journalism business or radio or TV because of that, then that's always, for someone like me, that's a really special honor.

Well, I have more for you, Norm. So we're going to go back a bit, and then we're going to come back to the present day and talk a little more about working in security. But my good friend Elvis, the listeners of this program have probably heard me mention or talk to my buddy Elvis in the past. Elvis heard you were coming on, and he sent me a note today to say, can you please tell Norm that I love him? He was my favorite broadcaster in the 90s, hands down. His show was Can't Miss,

and I loved, and then part of my French here, Norm, I'm just reading his note here. I loved every fucking minute of it. Fuck Detroit. Every, can you repeat that, Mike? Just so I heard it clearly. Every fucking minute of it

and then he throws in, fuck Detroit. Because it was the murder city dead things. Well, I'll tell you a funny story about Detroit. I mean, you know and most of your listeners know,

I became very good friends with Jim Devolano, right, the Red Wings Hall of Fame executive. You know, just I got to know a lot of people with different teams by being in the press box for so long, both the Maple Leaf Guards and the Air Canada Center. So when I first met Jimmy, he told me he used to laugh all the time with my constant, you know, going on about the dead things, right? So I used to get a laugh out about one guy who initially didn't.

I don't think he minds I tell the story now. It was Doug McClain. When I was doing that shtick, I first met Doug in the press box of the Gardens. It was 1994, so it was just after, you remember, after the Leafs upset them in 93, San Jose knocked them out in 94. They had back-to-back playoff disappointments. So I was going by him. I guess I introduced myself to him.

And he's like, oh, so you're the guy, blah, blah, blah. I was like, what the dead big stuff. So he got my face. He was letting it all hang out, telling me what he thought of my shtick on the radio. But after that, we actually became also good friends and talked to him, and he ended up working for Sportsnet. So it was kind of funny, but initially he didn't like it. But I remember Cliff Letcher certainly liked it,

because I remember he told me when the Leafs were going to Detroit in those days, there was some, I don't know which one, one of the stations in Detroit would give the Leafs a lot of grief. So I was kind of like returning the favor. But, you know, I think you'd remember Elvis. Is Elvis still for the other Elvis, God rest his soul, was Marie. Remember that one? You know, I got to plead to ignorance.

I don't know that one, but I know Elvis will, because Elvis, of course... Marie's the name of his latest flame. I love that song. Okay, because... I mean, he had a lot of great hits, right? I mean, In the Ghetto was another one. I was a young...

Oh, I remember In the Ghetto, yeah. Yeah, yeah, but Marie's the name of his latest flame. I love that song. But anyway, that's for Elvis. Amazing. So thanks to Elvis. Yes. I'm glad he loved my freaking show or whatever.

And it's funny. You know, I always try to, I strive, I strive to have the love-hate balance, right? That was, I mean, as far as I'm concerned, that's what made me successful. I knew that because when I was producing radio at CFRB a year before the fans started, that's what I learned. They brought in these consultants from Cincinnati to talk primarily to the hosts. They already knew what they were doing anyways.

We're talking about hosts like Larry Solway, Ed Needham, Charles Adler. These guys were like seasoned vets. I was a producer i was just there i was getting paid to learn at their feet which was awesome back then to get cfr views paying me 15 bucks an hour to produce that was big money for 1991 right um uh so anyway uh i remember these consultants said look if you want to they're talking about in general if you want to score high in the ratings you've got a one of the key dynamics is to have this kind of like love-hate relationship with the listenership.

So, as soon as I got that opportunity from Alan Davis, you know, to me, he's like, you know, a brother for giving me a chance when I didn't really have much on-air experience to go on the air at the fan. But anyway, I said, I knew to myself, or I thought to myself, talked to myself,

I've got to do that because no one knows who I am. I've got no name, and I'm going up against guys, especially like Bob and Dan Shulman, who are like, you know, got a huge footprint already. If I'm going to make a name for myself, survive, I've got to do something that's going to catch people by the groin and that they'll never forget my name, like from day one. So I knew exactly what I was going to do. And what I was going to do is like, okay, I grew up, you know, as a born

and raised Torontonian, you know, biased, of course, with Toronto teams. So I sort of played on that and I didn't happen right away. You know, when I was working with Jim Richards, I sort of wanted to ease in slowly. I didn't want to like, You know, when I was working with Jim Richards, I sort of wanted to ease in slowly. I didn't want to like, you know. He says real quick, Jim Richards says hi. I was chatting with him on another matter yesterday and he said hi to you. So hello from Jim.

He was a great guy. I got to give him a lot of credit because we would be up at night after our show and it at 2 a.m. and putting together, we would make our own promos, right? But Jim was pretty skilled. He was very skilled at that. I wasn't all that skilled at that, and he was funny as hell.

I mean, Jim's one of the funniest guys you could ever meet. He had that Saturday morning show that he did, and then he and Barry Davis put together the blooper reel, which was funny as hell. All of us used to listen to that. We wanted to hear our own mistakes, right? Right. which was funny. All of us used to listen to that. We wanted to hear our own mistakes, right? Anyway, but yeah, Jim's done very, very well for himself.

Well, you mentioned CFRB. That's where he's been for how many years now? That's right. Yeah, he's been there since about 96. But yeah, he was a big help to me, and I loved working with him. And then I went on my own. I started doing that a little bit when I was on the air with Jim, and that whole shtick started. Some guy, you know, you wouldn't be surprised. We started debating about Wendell Clark's value to the Leafs. And this is early in 92 when the season just started.

And that's when I kind of got into it and I saw, you know, that caught on like wildfire. Yes. So I became kind of like the Wendell Clark, you know, flag labor. Right. So I became kind of like the Wendell Clark, you know, flag laver. Right. And, you know, it just took off from there. And I just saw it.

It got to the point where I could just sit in my seat when my show started and the lines were lit up. You know, people waiting to have their little, you know, their verbal exchange with me. I mean, some would agree. I don't want to make it sound, but I was getting to the point about the love-hate thing. What I was taught by those consultants from Cincinnati was exactly true. I know because a fan employee who I won't mention was not supposed to show me stuff, but he did.

And in the fans' research, the stuff that they don't publish in newspapers, it's top-of-mind name awareness. You know, guys in the newspapers or whatever, media analysts talk about the ratings, but they don't see this other stuff that is done behind the scenes. They never see it. I wasn't supposed to see it, but someone showed it to me, and I'm grateful to God that he did,

because it showed by around 96, 97, I was scoring in the love-hate index as high as Bob was, Bob McCown. Wow. So that's what I wanted to see. Now, I mean, it didn't mean that I was going to suddenly get a raise, but it meant that I became important to the station because I know for a fact that when Don Collins brought me back, we sat, how did I know he was thinking of bringing me back? There's an article in the Globe and Mail, we're talking about 2010, because he brought me back in the spring of 2011.

There's an article in the Globe and Mail saying, oh, Don Collins, the new program director of Fan 590, has been checking with fan listeners. He's throwing out some top names in radio. Oh, top names in radio. Well, my name was there. I was grateful to read I was a top name. And then furthermore, that he was looking at me, so I phoned him. So I go, hey, I see you got my name in the mix there.

Can I come in and chat with you? Well, we did. And he said one of the reasons because they were going to add this local Canadian content to late night and all night, actually, I went all night for the better part of two years. That means from 11 PM till 5 AM. So I had done that occasionally in my first 17 years, but it was only like, you know, a big night where at least, you know,

on that playoff series with LA or the Blue Jays on the world series, stuff like that. We would do an all night show, but not all the time. Right. Anyway, he told me what he'd tell me. He said, I scored, I have a strong, you, what does a strong, you mean for you? And for the listeners, you, you think of the shape of the letter, right? Well, it's, it's evenly, you know, it's even on both sides, right. That comes to the same point on both sides of the, you's evenly, you know, it's even on both sides, right? It comes to the same point on both sides of the U. Well, what he meant was I score high, equally high in the love-hate index.

So I was still doing that, having been off the air there for two years, which to me was, I was honored that I'm still scoring high in his research two years after I'd been on the air in the love-hate index. You're probably still scoring high, Norm. Well, yeah yeah i remember actually sometimes like just for the hell but i do google my name and there's some of these hockey chat sites and even one that some guys i can't remember what the topic was 2019 they're still like drilling away at me and it's like i like people have no idea the ones who really hate me how honored i am

how honored i am that they're still talking about me 10 years after I've been gone. To think that I even get a space, instead of talking about their family or their friends, that I even occupy any space in their mind 10 years after I'm off the air, that is like the highest compliment as a radio host you can ever get. Now, Norm, this speaks to what Elvis was saying, and I would echo some of these remarks, especially in a pre-internet era. So when you're on the air late at night and people of a certain age are just listening to you hours on end, and you're right. Something about you is always very genuine and interesting, and you must have a plethora of people with fond memories, like great nostalgia and remember late nights before they had a mortgage,

before they had kids, before they had a wife, listening to Storm and Norman Rumack on The Fan. Yeah, well, there was, you're right. I mean, there was a generation because, I mean, I was on in total 20 years, but there was a generation of fellas, some girls, but mostly guys who grew up, who were in their, I guess, teens or a little bit before that when I started. And now, yeah, they're married with kids and they got a mortgage and two cars and whatever. Right.

And they miss those days, those careless nights. Making way more money than I am. Well, we'll get to that. We'll get to that. You mentioned, you know, before the fan, you're at 1010. Before that, I just want to read a note I got from a listener named Rudy lineback. Uh, Rudy says,

uh, I met him once in the late 1980s. He was working at CFTO and drove me from my home out to their studio in Scarborough for an interview on Canada AM being a commuter, being a commuter cyclist was a big deal back then. So this gentleman has fond memories of you from your Canada AM days. Yeah, well, that was a huge boost for me to get my feet kind of like to get going with my career because I graduated Syracuse in 1981 with a master's in TV and radio.

And then, you know, a lot of people won't recall, but the economy was not great then either. It was high interest rates. And then in the early 80s, there was a pretty bad recession that really reached its peak around 83. So I had a few jobs out of school. The Bob McClain Show, most people won't remember. It was a midday magazine show, a national network show for CBC TV.

I was a programmer researcher, basically a book on guests. And you do the research. i did that for a year and then i had the honor of working the first season of don cherry's grapevine uh we taped ralph mellenby hired me the great um uh the great uh exec producer for hockey night for so long in the nbc olympics as well. Anyways, Ralph hired me because we met in the CBC building when I was working. So my job was to book on the guests and go to the airport and take a ride with them from the Toronto airport to the CHCH studios in Hamilton where we taped all the shows

between, I guess, between July and October. We taped the whole season's worth of shows because we taped two at one shot. So that's the early 80s and i struggled uh then i got into i i said to myself around 86 i gotta do something here to like again like make a name for myself like you know kick up some dirt i gotta do it not i don't mean dirt like bad stuff about people i just mean i gotta make a name for myself somehow anyway i got fascinated because i was an undergraduate history major at York University. You know, I grew up in the midst

of the Vietnam War. So I knew all about that for as much as, you know, a lot of people did. And I also majored in American history and history in general, but American history at York. Anyway, so I saw a story about Canadians fighting in Vietnam, like on their own. They signed up, they crossed the border, whether it be at Buffalo or Bellingham, Washington, or Vancouver. And guys were signing up. And a lot of them served, turns out, as I learned, in elite units, Rangers and Green Berets, Special Forces.

But the problem for them was they came back with the same difficulties the American vets did, you know, Agent Orange poisoning, post-traumatic stress disorder, when hardly anybody knew what that was or what it does to people. And so I said, you know what, I'm going to get involved in this and try and do something to help out the cause of these Canadian vets. What was the cause? The problem was they were being denied their benefits from the Veterans Administration, meaning they couldn't go to Sunnybrook Hospital and have the USDA, the Veterans Administration, cover their costs. They'd have to go to American

Hospital. So if you're living in Toronto or Vancouver, that's a problem. Anyway, so long and short it was, I started interviewing guys. I hired cameramen, sound men on my own money. I hired a friend from who lived in Los Angeles. She was involved in set decoration, but she knew a lot of Hollywood people. So long and short, I started filming or videotaping their story. And what really made a name for me doing that from the fall of 86 to the spring of 87 was I paid for a bunch of Vietnam vets from Canada and a whole production team to go down to Washington to have a ceremony in front of the Vietnam veterans wall to honor the Canadians. I had two congressmen not only come out, but they read statements on the floor of the House of Representatives in the Congress.

Lane Evans, you can look it up, Lane Evans and David Bonior. Evans was a Republican. Bonior was, I think he was the Democratic whip in the House of Representatives from Michigan. So they came out to this ceremony I arranged along with people who were helping me at the Vietnam Veterans Wall. And at the time, the veterans told me there were 67 Canadian names on that Vietnam Veterans Wall. So we put, they put down, we put down red and white carnations, 67 of them, Don, are the names that we were aware of. And what was the big break?

The New York Times covered the story. And in their front section, they ran it on page six. So I was told I was already, I got hired at Canada AM. You're right, in January of 80. I'd run out of money. I spent every last time I had on that Vietnam project, especially the Washington part of it. And the people at CanadaM were aware of it.

And then as I kept in touch with them, I was struggling badly. I was working as a salesman at, like, Collegiate Sports at the Promenade because I didn't have any dough, right? So I just took whatever job I could get. could get and then um uh one of the senior producers at canada am early 88 just around the new year told me they were looking to add someone would i like to do an audition of course you know as a producer right so they bring me in this is the first week after new year's of 88 and so what was my assignment well it was no piece of cake. It was for people who are, you know, most people, your listeners, yourself are aware. The first intifada was underway in the Middle East, in Israel, you know, Palestinian uprising. So they told me, okay, here's your assignment. We want

you to get an Israeli representative and a Palestinian representative. It's like, well, okay. So they were, well, okay. So they were, I mean, that's, I guess you could use the term baptism by fire. That's not easy. Yeah, that's not a light assignment to break yourself in there. No, not at your first, yeah, your first gig in Canada. Heavy lifting, yeah. But what worked for me, you know, sometimes, as they say,

in all religions, the good Lord works in mysterious ways. As a youngster, I had gone to a Hebrew day school. You know, my two older brothers, David and Martin, went to a regular school, but my father and mother wanted me to go to a Jewish oriented school and learn the Hebrew language. Well, I did for like 12 years, pretty much. And so I spoke, I speak that language Hebrew fluently. So what I do, I call the Israeli consulate or the UN office for the government of Israel, the state of Israel in New York. And I got myself like a really, a big name guest because I spoke with the receptionist in Hebrew. So who did she get me to go on

Canada AM at that time as the UN rep for the state of Israel? Benjamin Netanyahu. Wow! That's like a pretty big name guest, right? That's as big, yeah. Of course, my job, you know, I pride myself in being, when I'm doing my job, I have to be neutral. I was, and I had to get a Palestinian guest, and I did. They had, at the time, they didn't have like a full representation, but they had, get a Palestinian guest, and I did. They had, at the time, they didn't have, like, a full representation, but they had, I forget exactly how it was referred to,

but they had a representative. But I still remember his name. I hope I pronounced it properly. It was someone like Booty Terzi. So he was on the same show as Benjamin Netanyahu. So I got them on, and that was my main audition. And I forget what I did the rest of that week, but they pretty much signed me up.

Yeah. I'd say you aced that. Yeah. Very well done. Yeah. That was my audition for Canadam. I was there from January 88 till the spring of 91 after the Gulf War. The economy also tanked, as people might remember.

And CTV laid off 10% of its workforce. I was one of them. That was just as the Gulf War was ending. and CTV laid off 10% of its workforce. I was one of them. That was just as the Gulf War was ending. And by the way, a lot of people I booked on to talk about the Gulf War were some Vietnam vet guys who I'd met when I was doing that whole project. So I made some really good contacts there. And then within two months, I got hired by CFRB to work on a couple of different shows

to produce for their evening talk shows. Larry Solways, Charles Adler, Ed Needham, who would just be brought up for the ratings. These are big names, right? Yeah, and so basically I just learned by working with these guys, especially Needham.

Needham was, I don't know if people know, Needham was brought in just for ratings. Why? Because I never forget, you go in the studio, 15 minutes before he's even in his seat, the lines are lit up. As much as I learned from Charles and from Larry Solway,

so with Needham, there was like, it was pretty, it was strict. He was like the radio talk equivalent of Scotty Bowman. It's like, if you ever do anything to screw up or mess up, you'll get fired on the spot. You'll never be back. So he told me, and I found out from other people,

if you ever take your eyes off him as a producer when he's doing the show and you don't pay attention to the show or you don't do attention to the show or you don't do exactly what he wants you're fired that's it there's no second chances so you do not ever dare take your eyes off him and he also made it clear there's three topics i will not take calls on one is the middle east meaning you know the israelis and their neighbors palestinians the other is abortion and the of course, people recall the horrible conflict with Serbia, Croatia, in that part of the world. You would not take calls on those

three topics. You ever put on a collar to talk about that, you'd be fired. Wow. Well, listen, because... So anyway, I just learned from Needham, it's like, you've got to find good people to go on the air, It's like you've got to find good people to go on the air and, you know, keeping focused. So anyway, I learned. And then a couple times with Ted Wallach, who did Saturday evening shows, Ted would let me go on and chat with him a little bit.

We did a show once on protest music. Anyways, Brent Coppin, who was a reporter at RB, told me his friend Alan Davis was looking to hire some people. Oh, there's going to be a new all sports station. He knew I was like an ultimate jock. So I phoned Alan Davis, went in. I had a cassette tape of me doing some on air and I'd been mostly producing. And Alan said he liked the way I sounded. I got my shot.

That's how it all started. Amazing. How everything came together that way. Well, let me shout out Killer Keith, who enjoyed you on 590. Well, yeah, I guess when you start, it's 1430, right? Yeah, that's right. It was 1430 until, I think it was the fall of 95 that they got the 590 signal available.

Yeah, something like that, exactly. And then Killer Keith's note, I'll read it verbatim here. He says, ask him if he would trade Clark for Fedorov. Yeah. Well, the truth of the matter is, even Wendell wouldn't have done that trade. But I do remember you would say things like that, though. There's no way that Wendell would put himself

in terms of that level of skill with Federoff. But, you know, I was doing my shtick and I was kind of like trying to milk it on Wendell's performance in the playoffs and the fact that the Red Wings back then would choke. Right. So I used that to kind of like leverage what I was talking about. You want a funny story about that for the gentleman? Oh yeah, give us a funny story and then I'll finish his note because it gets very

kind to you at the end of his note. But please tell the story first. Okay, so anyway, sometimes I became more aware hockey-wise. I realized Fedorov had an exceptional level of skill different from Wendell's and obviously

an elite skater, playmaker, scorer, et cetera, et cetera. Defensive forward. It so happened, you know, I got to know people at Newport Sports, at Donnie Meehan's firm. They represent, I think, 170 NHL players, including Wendell. But I remember, if you remember, I'm sure you do as your listeners, is Motor City Smitty, he had already retired from hockey, and he was working as, I guess, an agent or

an assistant agent at the firm. So I needed to recruit people to try and help me with my argument about Clark. You know, I wouldn't trade Clark for Federer. Now, most hockey people would say Norm. But anyways, you know, Motor City Smitty, he was a Red Wing and he was a Maple Leaf for a while. Sure. But anyway, I said, Brad, would you go on the air with me? I just need someone to back me up about, you know, I wouldn't trade Wendell for Federoff.

So I'm talking. He's like, so, and now joining me is Brad Smith, the former Maple Leaf and Detroit Red Wing, blah, blah, blah. And so I said, so Smitty, would you trade Clark for Federoff? And he sort of very quietly almost whispered, nope. He kind of like

had to get it over with. Right. That was the end of the conversation. He was another fan favorite. He sort of got it just got it done

without sounding too over the top about it. Motor City Smitty, man, I love it. No helmet, just that hair blowing in the wind as he went coast to coast at MLG. He was a funny guy. He was a really good guy to talk to. So Killer Keith... Would I trade Clark for Federer?

Skill-wise, but still, I mean, there was, I mean, a little bit of what I said was true that, I mean, there was, I mean, a little bit of what I said was true. I mean, you saw what Wendell did in 93, and I mean, I love the way he would stick up for teammates. You know, those two fights with Bob Probert, for anyone who was around there, I'll never

forget that, and the first round with Troy. Back-to-back fights, I mean, that was worth a fight for the division alone. No argument here. I love Wendell Clark. He's all heart, but of course, like anyone else, I would have traded him for Federoff. But let's finish Killer Keith's note here because he says,

it was part of my childhood listening to him at night on my radio and people arguing with him all the time about this. I can't wait to hear this one. So shout out to Killer Keith. That's a great handle. He's listening right now. And Norm, because I want to,

I promised you a nine o'clock dismissal here. So I need to just remind everybody that when Howard Berger was on this program, Howard Berger, who you worked with for many years, Norm, he told us all about the memo that Nelson Millman sent to the staff. I guess it was the morning after or shortly after you were unfortunately let go from your many years at the station. And the quote I always

remember is that Nelson Millman said, the station lost a piece of its soul that day. And Howard was telling me this story. And I think there's something to that, that a large, a big part of the fan soul was the, was, uh, encompassed by you, Norm Rumak. And due to, I don't know,

eggheads and numbers and ledgers, you were on the outs and they decided they, they had to remove you from the payroll for whatever reason. And you were let go. And, uh, I just, I guess I just want to acknowledge

that every once in a while, the eggheads, or should I say the accountants, get their way and sometimes you lose your job because you're a number on the wrong side of a ledger, whatever, whatever. But is it fair to say that when you left the fan, I know Don Collins brought you back for a bit, but that would be the last time

you were able to, and you correct me if I'm wrong, but that's the last time you were able to live in this expensive city, you know, pay your rent and feed yourself working in sports media. Am I right? Yeah, I mean, I did, you know,

when I was brought back, I had a few different gigs. I was doing this internet show out of Mississauga in the mornings. I'd come to the fan and do a late night show. I had a few different sources of revenue, but I mean, I really had to bust my tail. I wasn't getting much sleep doing all of it. But anyway, you know, I didn't know about that note. I mean, I knew because I'd seen it before, whether it was Nelson or whoever was in charge, you know, Alan Davis in the early days, you know, if someone was let go, there'd be

a part in the hallway, a court board, and you'd see a note left, you know, with whoever was the program director. And they, you know, just leave a brief note. But I honestly didn't know about that, and it was Howard who told me. It was like two or three years ago. I never realized that. Well, I told you when you were here. I never realized that Nelson wrote it up that way. I was like, wow, I'm so honored that he thought of me that way. Right.

Well, it speaks to the impression you left on your colleagues. That says something about a man's character. But let me just say that, is there a moment, let me ask you, is there a moment when you realize you're going to have to leave this industry? Like, tell me about that moment that you come to the conclusion, I'm not going to be able to replace that salary working in sports media. Yeah, well, it was about the time I was coming to see you. I mean, I'll give all the credit in the world.

A buddy of mine is still doing sports online stuff. His name is Joe Pasek. He's a company, Barnburner, barnburner.ca. So I worked with him. I had some of my sponsors come over there. So nothing to do with him, but you asked, you know, can you make enough? And the problem is no, and

good for you, because you're a lawyer, so you've got your regular career. I know, you said that twice, though, Norm, I need to correct you, I'm not a lawyer. Oh, you're not? No, I know, because I let it, the first time you called me an attorney, I was honored, I thought, like, okay, I, but no, I've never been a lawyer. Oh, okay. Well, then, even more credit to you. You've managed, you know, and you've got a family, too. You know, you've added all these sponsorships. So I can't remember why I thought you were a lawyer. Well, you know what I think it might be? The guy from Toronto Sports Media is a lawyer.

Okay. Well, maybe that's how I confused it. It's not the first time I've been confused with those guys because I believe Bob McCowan thinks I'm Mike in Boston. Well, that guy, I don't know, but he's mentioned my name. But I know him as, I wouldn't think of him as you. I know Mike in Boston is a separate entity. But, you know, now, Mike Boone, you've got a reason to play the hammerhead alert

in terms of me making a stupid comment, right? I mean, what a nice segue into the conclusion of I wish I had it before I would play it myself. Hammerhead alert. Hammerhead alert. Yeah, I'll do it for you. Hammerhead alert. Hammerhead alert. You see, I'm playing that for my own stupid comment.

There you go. And you've got to be fair about it, right? So I'm being fair. It's like I screwed up. I own it. But anyway, that comment from Nelson, I was so honored that he thought of me that way. And that was, yeah, it was Howard Berger who told me about that. I had no idea that a note like that was put up.

Well, I need to give you another hammerhead alert because when you were here for your first visit, I played you the audio clip of Howard telling me that story. And I distinctly remember you saying you had not heard that before. And you were quite, actually, you were quite emotional. It was quite a moment, actually. Yeah, well, Howard, okay, I must have, okay, I brain cramped. I mean, Howard did, maybe it was like a year and a half after I'd done your show. And I think, actually, even doing your show, believe it or not, I mean, it's a compliment to you,

that time was an emotional experience for me because we went over so many things. So I obviously forgot about that amongst many things we discussed. I remember we talked about a lot, a lot of different things. And that's the first time when I saw you in 2016, it was like, what, June, July 2016, right?

I think. Warm weather, because I just saw the photo, and it looks warm. Yeah, yeah, we were standing outside. It was very hot out. I remember I was wearing one of my, I was wearing my Chelsea hat, I think. But anyway, yeah, it was, so I'd forgotten that you had asked it, but I remember when Howard told me, I'd completely forgot that you had, you know, mentioned that.

So, you know, mention that. So, you know what, and there's, there's, I can't even put into words how hard it is, like, what you go through emotionally when you got to change careers, but you would ask, you're just, like, you know, segwaying to that. Right. And it's like, when I realized was about the time about that I have to get a new career was just around the time I'd come to see you a little bit later. I knew, you know, that the sources of money for me in terms of sponsorship were going to dry up. So I started actively looking in the early winter, like just after the new year of 2017. But I knew by the time I was coming to see you in 2016, you know, it was pretty much the end of the rope for a career in broadcasting.

And, you know, more people were being let go. And even more so now. I mean, I feel badly for some of these kids in journalism school, especially with what's gone on now with the economy and the job layoffs. And God knows, you know, what kind of businesses and industries are still going to be around when this thing ends and they finally get this COVID crisis out of the way. And we're not going to know, are they going to have a vaccine next spring?

We don't know. But I don't know what kids are going to do that are coming out of journalism school. What kind of money are these stations and networks going to have? They're not getting any. That whole thing is going to be a real tough one for a lot of folks. Well, Norm, I'll use the term I'm using again. I have to swear to tell you the term I'm using, but it's a clusterfuck. Well, yeah, you're not wrong about that because, you know,

the only thing I would say to people about if they still are that diehard about going on into broadcast, look, everyone, I thought so too. I want to get on the air. Thank God I got on the air. But a lot of them who start off producing, that's their goal. They want to be a network host or the next Bob McCallum or go on the blank, any of the news show hosts locally or nationally.

And honestly, the chances of getting to that level, and especially now, wow. It's like, I think you got a better chance of winning one of those lotto tickets. Really. I have a better chance of becoming an attorney, I think. What's that, sir? I was going to say, I might have a better chance of becoming an attorney. I might have a better chance of becoming an attorney. Well, you're a lot brighter than me, so anybody could do it. And I gave you that nice reference, right? Sort of.

But anyway, no, it's really tough. What I would say to kids, no matter what they go into, is get some secondary skill. And I say secondary skill. You know, something you can do at summer camp. Get yourself your Royal Life Saving Award. Why? So you can teach swimming. Like, you can do that in any era.

You know, things like that. Things, you know, if you happen to be handy, you know, around a bar, learn how to make drinks, get your bartending license. Right.

Diversify, diversify your revenue streams. Like, and I think if I'm reading between the lines, and I think this is important, there's no shame in it. I feel like... Oh, absolutely not. Well, because when you're...

We just talked about Howard Berger, but he left the industry. He probably reached a very similar conclusion that you reached. And he went into a new profession. He now works... I don't know what the proper term is. Funeral director? Yeah, he's working, I believe, for Benjamins. And, yeah, I actually saw Howard up there when my mom passed away a year ago in March.

I'm sorry, man. That was the place that we worked with, so Howard was working that day. But I'm so proud of Howard. When I speak of it, it's really honorable that he's in love with his new profession and no, he's not giving us leaf updates on our radios anymore,

but he's proud of what he's doing. From what I hear, he's good at what he does. He's able to put food on the table. He's able to pay his rent, his mortgage, whatnot. You've done something very similar and you're to be commended. There's a message here for anyone

who's on the outside of their preferred industry. If you're at that tough age, like you mentioned in your 50s, how old were you when you got that first pink slip there that we're talking about? From the fan, I can tell you exactly it's june 23rd

2009 and i was 54 you know what i did like i'm serious like no exaggeration just to show about the point that you know willing to do whatever uh it takes to you know get back in the workforce i know people find this unbelievable but but it's true. Within the next week of June 23rd, I went to Canadian Armed Forces recruiting. They've got a big office at Young and Shepherd, as most people know. I went in there. I said, look, my dad served Canadian Forces World War II. I just want to know, I'm age 54. Could I possibly get in for officer training in either intelligence or several one of other fields, communications, and they said, no, I was a couple years too old.

I mean, back then, Canadians were still going to Afghanistan, right? Sure. I didn't, I mean, you know, it's a bit of a dangerous place to be, obviously, for Canadian forces or any forces, but I was willing to do that if they would, you know, let me sign up for officer training. They told me I was a few years too old for that. So I was that willing to do whatever it takes. And I told you about considering training for officer for being a dispatcher for police, but it was, I just perceived it would be too hard to get hired at my age.

So, well, that's just it. The age works against you, right? No, you said it perfectly. You do what you got to do. And it's, I don't know, remind me, who got you in touch with the YMCA? Yeah, well, it's ymca.org. They have a career counseling service. The office I went to is up at Dufferin and Finch.

There's a big Ontario courthouse there, and they've got a little office up there. It's just strictly for career counseling. I saw the ad for it. I was so, like like down about i i went i remember employment ontario sent me to do um these uh to go to these job fairs and said oh yeah make sure you wear a shirt and tie i mean all due respect to employment ontario i don't want to you know go overboard but oh make sure you're wearing a shirt and tie well guess what i was the only one wearing a shirt and tie right the rest of the group nobody was my age they're all millennials nothing against them but i can

see i got no shot as like you know interviewing with the bay and home depot they weren't looking for guys in their 60s like i was so down on like honest to god it was like what the f am i gonna do right so i saw i was on the subway i saw an ad for YMCA.org, career counseling. Well, I'm almost on my last legs here financially. Seriously, I ran down all my retirement savings to freaking nothing. What happens, by the way, Norm? What happens? Sorry, no, you finish your story.

Then I'm going to ask what happens if you do run out? Because I have friends that were formerly in your industry who are in the same boat. What happens when you do run out of money and you can't pay your rent? Well, God forbid, thank God I didn't get to that stage, but then either you've got to go to family or I guess, I don't know, if welfare is an option, I guess they try to find out how much money you do have, but oh God, that would be a nightmarish situation. I mean, I wasn't far off from that, but thank God YMCA set me up for the training.

Scotiabank got the YMCA to pay for my – it was only $250, so it wasn't like a fortune, but they paid for it. And, you know, I've – thank God now, and now I qualify for my old age pension. I'm already taking my Canada pension. So now this spring, summer, I'll be making more money than I did the FAN for the first time since I got laid off or let go in 2009. It's kind of

a 10-year turnaround, but I did it. Good for you. Honestly, good for you. You hold your head up high. Unfortunately, there's a pandemic going on, but stay safe and stay healthy. Is it fair to say you can do this job for the next decade? I can do it. They never throw you out because they haven't got enough staff.

As long as you're physically able, you can do it as long as you want to, as long as you're still able to. Are they hiring even now, like during this pandemic? Well, yeah, you can. Their phone, well, I mean, I can't name a company I work for, but yeah, you phone into security firms. Once you get your license, oh, yeah,

they're all looking for people because a lot of people don't want to go to work right now. Okay, let me say this then. If anyone listening is in a similar position to where you were a few years ago, if they can write me a note, Mike at TorontoMike.com, I'll discreetly forward it to you, Norm. And then you guys can privately exchange. I'll tell them where to go and who to talk to, including the company I work for. I didn't want to give that over the air.

But yeah, I'll be happy to do that. And I know for a fact, once people get their training, their license, they're looking to hire. Cause I bet you there's lots of 50 somethings, uh, 60 somethings who can't afford to retire, but can't get a gig somewhere because they're, you know, 50 something, 60 something year old people. And that's gotta be tough. So good on you, man. Honestly, that's a great story. Well, thanks a lot, Mike. And I'm sorry again,

I screwed up about you being a lawyer. But, you know, you could go back to law school. You're bright enough and young enough. You could do it, Mike. Well, you know what? You're doing so well with this with all your sponsors. Good Lord. You've got more sponsors than most TV stations.

Norm, you mentioned sponsors. So let me just take an opportunity to say there's a brand new sponsor of Toronto Mike. In fact, I only unveiled this yesterday when I had Jody Vance on the show. Garbage Day. So Norm, anybody can sign up for Garbage Day right now at garbageday.com slash Toronto Mike. Basically, it's notification. It's a wonderful little service. I got a notification a few hours ago that said, it basically says, put out your garbage and your perishables and your yard waste because all three are getting picked up

tomorrow morning at your house. So it's just, you know, if they change the schedules for like yard waste pickup or if you get confused, is it garbage or is it recycling? Is this the Christmas tree pickup day? All that stuff.

It just really in an elegant fashion notifies you and it's a really cool service. It's completely free. So garbageday.com slash Toronto Mike. Of course, if anybody wants to attend a virtual open house with the Keitner Group, I'm actually hosting this thing on Saturday at noon. So look at me hosting other things.

But if you text Toronto Mike to 59559, Austin will send you the Zoom link and you could join us Saturday at noon. Norm, next time you're able to come here physically when this physical distancing order is lifted, I got more beer for you from Great Lakes. So I got that for you. But I got a couple more things.

I have a frozen lasagna for you from Palma Pasta. Yeah, and don't worry. It's not going to be a lasagna that's in my freezer right now. It'll be a new one, okay? But everybody should get their pasta from palmapasta.com. Great partners of the program. And stickeru.com, I want to give them a special shout out because you can upload any image.

You could upload like a hammerhead Alert logo to StickerU.com and order yourself any quantity of stickers or temporary tattoos or decals and you could be plastering the city with Hammerhead Alert stickers. Wow. Gee, if only I had thought of that back then. We needed

StickerU.com back then. Norm, again, a sincere thanks for your honesty and sharing your story. There is life after sports media. Yes, there is. And it's about, like, you know, the old expression I learned from my late mom and dad. And that is, you know, if the good Lord gives you lemons, make lemonade. Amen, Norm.

Thank you so much, Mike. Thank you so much, Mike. Thank you so much. I love the conversation. I look forward to being back anytime you want me on. Thank you. Pleasure was all mine. And thanks to the people who emailed in and people who are listening. I really appreciate them being listeners.

So thanks to them for sure. And that brings us to the end of our 626th show. You can follow me on Twitter. I'm at Toronto Mike. Norm, is there any way to follow you on social media? Yeah, my Twitter is just my name. It's at Norman Rumak, my full name. R-U-M-A-C-K, people know the spell. So it's at Norman Rumak. And on Facebook it's Stormin, ending with an N. Stormin Norm, not Norman, Stormin Norm not Norman

Stormin Norm RUMAC that's my Facebook page good some people will want to connect with you Great Lakes Brewery are at Great Lakes Beer

Palma Pasta is at Palma Pasta Sticker U is at Sticker U the Keitner Group are at the Keitner Group and again Garbage Day

are at GarbageDay.com slash Toronto Mike. See you all next week. This podcast has been produced by TMDS and accelerated by Roam Phone. Roam Phone brings you the most reliable virtual phone service to run your business and protect your home number from unwanted calls.

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