Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Susan Fleming: Toronto Mike'd #1418

Episode Date: January 26, 2024

In this 1418th episode of Toronto Mike'd, Mike chats with nature documentary director and producer Susan Fleming about racoons, coywolves, crows, moose and the beautiful and fast-flowing Magpie river in Northern Quebec becoming Canada’s first natural phenomenon to be granted legal personhood. Toronto Mike'd is proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, Ridley Funeral Home, The Advantaged Investor podcast from Raymond James Canada and Electronic Products Recycling Association.

Welcome to episode 1418 of Toronto Mic'd. Proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery. A fiercely independent craft brewery who believes in supporting communities, good times, and brewing amazing beer. Order online for free local home delivery in the GTA. Palma Pasta Enjoy the taste of fresh, homemade Italian pasta and entrees from Palma Pasta in Mississauga and Oakville. RecycleMyElectronics.ca Committing to our planet's future means properly recycling our electronics of the past. The Advantage'd Investor Podcast from Raymond James Canada, valuable

perspective for Canadian investors who want to remain knowledgeable, informed and focused on long-term success, and Ridley Funeral Home, pillars of the community since 1921. Today making her Toronto Mike debut is nature documentary director and producer Susan Fleming. Welcome to Toronto Mike, Susan. Hi, great to be here. So you're here literally I'm gonna read the sentence that hooked me. This is a lovely lady named Jill who sends me notes periodically about what's happening in the zeitgeist and what should happen on Toronto Mike. And I'm gonna read you the sentence.

And this is gonna be a teaser. We'll revisit this later after we get to know a little more about you and some of your awesome nature projects. Here's a sentence. The beautiful and fast flowing Magpie River in Northern Quebec has become Canada's first natural phenomenon to be granted legal personhood.

That's quite the sentence. It's pretty amazing, isn't it? It's so amazing. So here, that I'm going to just let the listenership know. We're going to dive deep into that and we're going to talk about I Am The Magpie River, which airs, so we're recording on Friday January 26 this airs on Thursday February 1st on the nature of things 9 p.m. CBC and on CBC gem okay good for you how many of your projects have aired on CBC is the nature of

things oh boy that's a test I would say your homework at least six I would say your homework there. At least six I would say six Final answer final answer six. That's incorrect. No, how would I know? I trust you? Okay, so we're gonna get to know you a little bit. But firstly, it's tough to Google you You know why there and of course, you know, it's your name, but there's a Susan Fleming who was married to Harpo Marx This is Groucho Chicoico, Zeppo and Gummo. It's their sister-in-law. And she, this actress named Susan Fleming, was known as the girl with the million dollar legs.

Are you familiar with this, Susan Fleming? It is a problem, because my legs are not as good as hers. So I'm very jealous. I'm gonna check under the table here. I'll be the judge of that here. It is the first thing that comes up, and it's hard to Google me or because I am on no social

media. I haven't been for years. I had this death scrolling moment on Instagram at midnight about five years ago and I thought, what are you doing? Read a book. So I am not on anything. So yeah, I am not really so findable, which I kind of like. Well, okay, it's just pros and cons, right? Like the pros as less, you don't have to

worry about, I don't know if there's any anxiety around the trolls on what the app formerly known as Twitter or just people being dinks. And, you know, this whole interesting sentence, I will repeat one more time because I like the sentence so much. The beautiful and fast flowing magpie river in Northern Quebec has become Canada's first natural phenomenon to be granted legal personhood. You don't have to deal with any,

I don't know, any trolls trying to pick a fight about that sentence or whatnot because you're not on social media. But at the same time, when you're coming on Toronto Mic'd, I'm gonna have to get to know you by talking to you. Oh, it was worth the drive. Okay.

And you're a Windsor girl, right? I am born and raised. So what baseball did you even care about baseball before I ask you? But like, are you raised a tiger fan? How does it work in Windsor? You are a tiger fan. You're a Detroit fan of everything when you're raised in Windsor. I literally grew up 15 minutes from the border. And so we would, you know, that was where you went

on a Saturday night and, uh, yeah, Detroit was very fun. When I was really young, uh, Diana Ross would play in the parks in Windsor. They would do these Motown tours. So Spokie Robinson, Diana Ross would literally play in a, in a park. So it was a great place to grow up. Okay. Shout out to the Tigers. Uh, There was a Disney movie when I was growing up called Tiger Town. We had Disney at like Sundays at six or something. And it was called Tiger Town and it was like this aging veteran lost his mojo playing for the Detroit Tigers. But there's like a little kid who believed in him or something and he would do this thing

where he like closed his eyes and like prayed almost and then suddenly this aging veteran found his mojo again. It's quite the movie for me. I love Disney at six o'clock on Sunday nights. We always watched it. Do you know Disney used to make nature films. So some of those Sunday nights weren't just cartoons and these kind of heartwarming stories. They also had nature films when I was growing up and that might've been what got me hooked. Well, there you go. I want your origin story here because I'm going to talk to you before

we talk about the Magpie River and I got to know I won't read it again, but we're going to talk about that and this, you know, February 1st, the nature of things episode. I am the Magpie River that you, you, you directed, February 1st, the Nature of Things episode, I Am the Magpie River that you directed, you produced it. Co-produced, directed and co-wrote. Hey, look at you, many talents here. Okay, I want to let the listenership know that I'm gonna talk to you a little bit about raccoons, koi wolves, crows, moose,

get a little backstory and all that, but first, what's your origin story? Like what made you wanna become a nature filmmaker? So I started out, I went to journalism school and then I went to radio and television at Ryerson and I wanted to be the next Barbara from, and the year I graduated 6,000 people were laid off from the CBC, uh, from radio and television at Ryerson. And so that was a real wake up call.

6,000. No, 3000. Sorry. Okay. We cut call. Six thousand. That's her defendant. No, three thousand. Sorry, mistake. Okay, we cut it. It looks like it's getting better the longer we talk. But it was still an insane amount of qualified people who went out into the workforce. And so I decided that I always loved film and so I started to do research and thought

I'm going to be, I'd love to be a documentary filmmaker. And at the time I was, I wait just my way through a university cause I switched major so many times. I went to school for seven years to get a bachelor of arts. Lots of people go to school for seven years. They're called doctors. I am not bachelor of arts. So that was, that was a feat.

Um, but, um, so I ended up wanting to do this, but I made a lot of money waitressing. So I had this option. I thought, what am I going to do this, but I made a lot of money waitressing. So I had this option. I thought, what am I going to do? I don't want to just give it up, make $125 a week was literally what you made back then. Um, so I started interviewing filmmakers and I said, I'll work for you for free, but I have to be, I have to leave at five so I can go to the dinner shift. I waitressed every night work for free. And it was amazing. I got mentored by like Laszlo Barna and the folks at Rhombus and it was really an incredible education and ended up just really falling in

love with documentary film. And after a few years of doing that, um, probably about 10, I, I really had moved to a farm in the country in Uxbridge and I really loved, I've always loved the outdoors and I really got, I've always loved the outdoors. And I really got tired of people lying to me. Like people have their own agendas. Even when you're on camera,

they're trying to spin it their way. It was really frustrating. And I thought, I'm making films on animals. They're true. Like they are what they are. They don't lie to you. And if they do, you know, it's just a fascinating deception as opposed to this,

which is just pissing me off So I started making films on animals The first was a series that lasted for ten years called the secret world of gardens Which I just still love and was just a dream to make because I made it all you know around my backyard I built gardens. We traveled all over filming Where does this air the secret life of gardens? Secret world of gardens. Girl, yeah, that's right. It aired on Discovery and on HGTV.

Okay, amazing. Okay, back to Uxbridge for a moment. I once got a, like I mentioned, I get these pitches and I actually completely ignore the vast majority of pitches, although you're here today because I really, really was intrigued by the Magpie River. But I had one like a few years ago and it was like come to Uxbridge

because Victor Newman is going to be here because of the railroad thing. Like there's a railway, there's a railway thing in Uxbridge and Victor Newman, who's a soap opera star, I think that's the character's name. I didn't watch this soap, but I don't think that's even the actor's name. I think it's like Eric Braden or something. But this was the pitch. And looking back, it's like, how did I resist? Really? Yeah. Like there's this, I don't know, like Victor Newman's going to be at a railroad thing in Uxbridge. Like that's worth the drive, right? What do you think? Would you, would you bite on that pitch? I live in Uxbridge and I didn't even know about that.

Okay. I'm just here to let you know my Uxbridge connections. All right. Well, that's, that's a good one. Although the railroad just declared bankruptcy this week. Is that right? Yeah. Really? Yeah. I want to see the doc on that. I can't believe it Victor couldn't save the railroad. Okay, so quick also you mentioned CBC So we'll do these little tangents and we'll always get back here, but you mentioned CBC radio just yesterday I was on the the NFB website Great documentaries on the NFB website and they had a classic documentary on CBC radio was like filmed in the late 80s and I gotta say I love this

documentary. This is just it's free on the National Film Board website and it's about CBC radio in the late 80s and you got Peter Zowski and all these cats and it's fascinating this to be a fly on the wall as they pieced all that together on on Jarvis Street. That was great radio time boy. That was incredible. You say that like the late 1980s was so long ago. I know I'm that much older than you. My first documentary was for the NFB in the late 1980s. No, listen, I was in high school in the eight late 80s. So I mean, I'm not I'm not too young but Just to see this is a little fun fact

I learned because then I'm diving into because, but just to see, this is a little fun fact I learned because then I'm diving into because Peter Zowsky died in 2002, I want to say. And he lived up by me in Oxbridge. He lived on the island. Yeah, just outside Port Perry. So like right in my neck of the woods. Amazing. Okay.

So near here, I do a daily ride on the waterfront trail and there's a park called Sir Kashmir Gazowski Park and I always like oh there's this Kashmir Zowski and then of course there's Peter Zowski we all know from CBC radio but then I was yesterday just learned that this is like the great-grandfather of Peter Zowski like this is his great-grandfather in cash sir Kazmir Zowski and what was his claim to fame that he got a park? He was like an architect, like a prominent Toronto architect back in the day, and he got a park. Cool.

So there you go. All right. So you're into filming nature. And so there's one on raccoons? Yes. So there's one on raccoons that aired on the CBC and all over the world because we despise them but everybody else in the world is completely fascinated by raccoon. It's called Raccoon Nation and that was so many all-nighters.

Oh my god, I must have stayed awake 200 nights to make that film. But it was, what was really the coolest thing for me was we were on Newcastle Island, which is just off Nanaimo in BC and there were raccoons every morning in the tidal pools searching for clams and oh, the dexterity in their hands is incredible. Oh, that's how they get into the green bin. But you know, we think of them as the green bin, so it's so much more dignified when they're searching for clams and mussels. But they can get into anything.

I know we've, in Toronto at least, I'm sure other places have done the same thing, but now if you have that angle, you're being at a certain angle for it to unlock like this so that the trucks can get it unlocked, but the raccoons can't. But I feel like there's evidence that maybe they've even figured this out. You know, if we knock it against the wall or something I can get in there, but it's quite quite amazing what they can get into these raccoons Incredibly smart and they learn like that's one of the things we explore in the film is how they learn to get into things and They have they have sequential thought which is quite an incredible thing

We don't have it till we're about three or four Where you can put one piece onto another and add to another bit of knowledge to get to the end. Right. But one, you want to know the trick about the raccoon bins about garbage bins? If you hang them on a hook, so you just have to hang them on a hook like a foot off the ground like the back and then they can't topple them over. They can't tip them the right way. It's literally just a dollar hook from the hardware store is the answer to all raccoon bin

Questions you are you are welcome. Okay. Listen, this is I'm glad you're here because now we all have that Hot tip from somebody who knows raccoons. So in your right here in Toronto Sometimes they call this raccoon city or whatever there's just and I find it interesting sometimes it'll be like dusk or something and it'll be like And I find it interesting. Sometimes it'll be like dusk or something and it'll be like 7 p.m. or 6 p.m. And you got these raccoons who are like our early risers,

I guess, like they're out and about. And I'm always, I always yell at them to go back to bed. Like this is too early. Now they've been out all night. They've been out, but all day. They're going to bed soon. Oh yeah, but this is like dusk, right? So it's not, you're right.

Don't, yeah. So, but at dusk they've been sleeping, no? And then they get up early. Okay. Just get back to bed raccoons here. Okay. And last night, quick tangent here too, is Pamela Wallin wrote a book on cats. Oh, okay.

I know. It's like, it just sounds like, oh, okay. Like Senator Wallin, former, you know, media person in this marketplace, wrote a book about cats because she had a cat named Kitty that like changed her life and inspired her. So it's kind of its nature I guess cats. Anyway I went to meet her, so Pamela's been on this program but she was in Saskatchewan because she lives on a lake in Saskatchewan. And I met her yesterday at this book launch in the junction and I'm biking home and it's late because it's like I don't know 8.30 at night,

nine o'clock at night and I'm biking through a local park called Colonel Samuel Smith Park and I pass a coyote and then I was thinking about koi wolves and you tell me what is a koi wolf so a koi wolf is it's basically an Eastern coyote which is a hybrid cross which is where the coy koi wolf name comes from a geneticist coined that term Bradley White who um, who's an incredible man. And so coy wolf is because they're part dog or part, um, coyote part wolf. The whole story is explored in meet the coy wolf, which is still on CBC gem. And, uh,

it's a really fascinating story because their origin story starts now Gonquin Park. And it was when the coyotes were so perc... It's a really fascinating story because the origin story starts now Gonquin Park and it was when the coyotes were so perse- or the wolves were so persecuted there weren't enough mates to be found and they started to go towards coyotes and that's where the coy wolf origins come from. But the fascinating thing is when you see eastern coyotes or coy wolves and you think they're so huge most of it is just fur. They weigh like 35 pounds.

I have a bouffier, he weighs 100 pounds. Like these things look so big because they puff up and they have long legs but it's really all fur. And when they are higher like 50 pounds, they tend to have more dog in them because it's the dog gene that actually adds the weight on. Okay, wild. And I know, okay, so we can see this koi, what's the name again? Koi wolf. But what's the name of the dock? Oh, meet the koi wolf.

Meet the koi wolf. You can see it on Jam like today. We can pause this podcast and go watch that. Where do we see the raccoons dock before I go beyond the raccoons? I don't know that it's available in Canada anymore. Okay, so go find that. Go find that. Go find that. I'm sure it's illegally up on the web somewhere. It's called Raccoon Nation. Raccoon Nation.

As I get tired of pulling them all down, it takes so much time. But I really try. Okay, you put in the effort for that. Okay. Now the koi wolves that we can watch on on on jam. Any in the GTA? Am I going to find a koi wolf? Gosh, are you kidding? We filmed a lot in the GTA.

I haven't seen it yet. Like like an idiot. I'm going to watch it though. Oh, you know what? I actually am really proud of that one. I think it's, I think you will be fascinated because they travel a lot. They come into Toronto and a lot of big cities along the rail lines. That's their big transit route.

It's like a highway. And there are so many, if you play golf, on golf courses early in the morning, they're out there trying to hunt rabbits and geese and ducks. And there are a lot in Toronto, like there's at least two packs in High Park alone. No, there's a lot in Toronto. I was in High Park last night. That's how I got back from the junction. Well, it's really interesting. If you wait in High Park or any actually park in Toronto and you wait for a siren to go by, they answer the sirens all the time. Well it's really interesting if you wait in High Park or any actually park in Toronto and you wait for a siren to go by they answer the sirens all the time so they start howling in response to the sirens. It's

quite comical and people think oh those dogs are barking it's like no that's not a dog. You know in Sam Smith Park I heard like this is like again like I don't know nine o'clock last night or something I heard barking like as if dogs and then shortly thereafter is when I passed the coyote. Hey, honestly, where have you been all my life? Come on here. Okay. And the coy wolf's fascinating. Is it just like, I mean, what I do with coyotes is I leave them alone.

Like I very smart because the worst thing we've done and we blame them and I get calls all the time to speak to this and I just sort of I Don't know. I feel like I'm not the scientist but I spent 250 nights filming them so we spent a lot of time with them and I spent a lot of time with scientists who study them and For for coyotes, it's or coy wolves. It's that us feeding them is the problem You know they get trained to us feeding them is the problem. They get trained to people feeding them,

and then we are so shocked that they follow people. And it's our fault. So if you leave them alone, they'll leave you alone. That's my best practice. And I tell my kids, leave them alone, get away, go away, and there's signs everywhere too. But I mean, I didn't need the signs to tell me that. Yeah, but a lot, you would be shocked

by how many people feed them. It is really like,'s just such a no-no not just for you but for all your neighbors like you're teaching them to come to you for food. 100% let me know these people I'm gonna have a stern chat with these these individuals feeding the coyote wolves. How do you know exactly so how do you know it's a coyote wolf or a coyote is size? Well most of the- But you said the dog makes it big, okay. Dog makes it big, but most of the coyotes we have here are eastern coyotes and so they are coy wolves. They're the coyote-wolf hybrid. That's an eastern coyote.

The western coyotes that you see, you know, in BC or they're a lot smaller, like literally, you know, this big versus this big like hugely smaller so what what you mainly see here predominantly see here is gonna be a coy wolf or an Eastern coyote. Okay good to know on the live stream so live.TorontoMike.com Jeremy is telling us that there's lots of course there's lots of coyotes through the ravine system here in the city but he hears them howling through the East Dawn quite often. Yes, that's a huge thoroughfare.

And I filmed a lot in cemeteries, and the reason is that there are large open spaces without a lot of people. And so, you know, rabbits and a lot of things gravitate to those areas, and so they have free domain. So we filmed a lot in cemeteries, but the ravine system, which Toronto is amazing for our ravine system

Is a huge huge thoroughfare for coyotes and in fact in many ways. There's more I know this as a fact There's more per acre in cities than there are in the countryside because they're really persecuted in the countryside Which is I try to educate the farmers around me that it really the best thing you can be is a bad shot Because you want to teach those that coyote pair that don't come near the barn this is a bad space and then they're going to clear all the vermin out around the your fields and everywhere you don't want them but if you kill a coyote pair they're literally built so that they can reproduce when persecuted

so they'll up there not only will they increase their litter sizes, the females go into estrus earlier. So they will have more young by more females and then new ones will move in. They split up the territory. You actually are creating as a farmer, you're creating a problem for yourself if you start picking off coyotes. So it's um, it's really they're incredibly smart. They're going to be around long after us. It's going to be the rats and the coyotes, man. See, I understand 100% why you're focusing on nature. First of all, nature's amazing. Oh yeah.

So yeah, I mean, if you need help, I don't know, somebody to carry like a camera or something. Remember those 250 all-nighters though. Be careful what you volunteer for. Yeah, but think of what, yeah, you're looking out for raccoons and koi wolves and amazing. By the way, I have a couple more animals I want to ask you about before we get to the river, but how do you decide what you're going to cover for a documentary? Like do you have to pitch the idea and sell it first before you can film it or do you film it first?

Like how does it work? So long are the days of triple, you know triple mortgaging my house to make a film. That was just so silly. But now I come up with the idea, you write the treatment, you pitch it to broadcasters, and you get them on board, and you get your funding, and then you start. That is the sane way, and remember I'm saying this, it is the sane way to make a film. Because it takes two years at least to make a nature film. You know, you have to put in a tremendous amount of time and you want to be paid.

You want to be able to eat and pay your mortgage and all of those things. So the funding first, funding first. He's saying Alan Zweig was just here and he often, you know, he likes to complain about things. I like him. He's got even got a he's got a documentary called I curmudgeon. Okay. He lives the role, but you know, he'll pitch some idea to the CBC and he'll be like,

why are they saying no to that? And then he'll see that they said yes to something else that he thinks is ridiculous. And he's always trying to like, try to understand like, why is CBC like funding this thing, this piece of crap, when they said no to my thing, that was a much better better idea Yeah, it's probably a common problem in documentary filmmakers Have you ever had a like a a subject you wanted to dive into but could not get the funding so you couldn't do it? Because you didn't want a triple mortgage that home. Oh

Several several like now now. Okay, let's before we get to the crows and the moose here, can you share any of these topics? Oh, no, because they're in that wish list of someday I will get this made. So who's finding that? So I know we're talking about CBC because they make the nature of things which we love. We love CBC. I know. Absolutely. And they're going to be on February 1st at nine.

I don't know if you know this Susan, February 1st at nine p.m. they're going to air I am the Magpie River on nature of things. I'm going to watch appointment viewing for all FOTN listening. And I've got it in my calendar. And we're going to talk more about that very, very soon. But I guess you don't want to reveal these the wishlist because somebody listening will steal that idea. Somebody will rich person will just say, I don't need to triple mortgage my

home, I will pay for this myself and do it. Oh god. What a dream. Um, I Doubt that that rich person is a documentary filmmaker No, you know you need you need a rich person to be like I like the cut of your jib Susan and I love nature and you're a great nature documentary filmmaker You know, I won't miss this grant this money I give you this money to go do your thing so the world can be educated.

Put the word out there. We're doing it right now, okay? But first, if this really rich person likes nature, but they probably also like Toronto Mike. So hit me up too, I need some funding first and then we'll get Susan some funding. Oh, there's a cut coming, I can tell. Where are these rich people?

Okay, okay. So they didn't get rich by giving away their money, Susan. That's what happened. It's true, I can tell. Where are these rich people? Okay, okay. So that's, you know, they didn't get rich by giving away their money, Susan. That's what it's true. So, okay, so raccoons, koi wolves, crows. Tell me about why you wanted to make a movie about crows. What's the movie called? Can we see that one?

It is called A Murder of Crows, and it is sort of an examination of crow intelligence and how much we underestimate these bird brains and how you really should have a lot more respect for them and I got the idea for the film I was sitting on my deck with my dog one morning having my coffee and literally a baby crow just dropped out of the sky I've always had nesting pairs right by my deck every year. They tend to come back to the same areas again and again. And it dropped down right in front of us.

And the dog was sleeping and just looked up. And because it didn't move, he didn't even react. But it had bright blue eyes. And I didn't know that crows had bright blue eyes. And then when I started to research it, it's when they're young, they have bright blue eyes and they turn't know that crows had bright blue eyes and then when I started to research it it's when they're young they have bright blue eyes and they turn black as they get older at about the three-month mark I think don't quote me on that one but part of it is it it lets other because they live in like larger groups and that's the other members of the group know I'm a baby

please don't beat me up I don't know what I'm doing but it was such an interesting observation. It's like baby on board for crows. Exactly that's so cool and so I thought if I don't beat me up, I don't know what I'm doing. But it was such an interesting observation. It's like baby on board for crows. Exactly, that's so cool. And so I thought, if I don't know that about crows, what else do I don't know? And so I started researching it and became completely fascinated. So in the film, one of the big things we follow

is an experiment happening in Seattle where a scientist and his team moved through a park wearing Dick Cheneyy masks of all things and they captured crows in nets and they just captured them and then released them. And the whole objective of the research was to understand how knowledge is passed and if the crows would react. And literally we took him back to this park, he wore the dick-chainy mask among hundreds of people walking through this park and we did it on campus. And he walked through and the crows dive bombed him, not one other person.

I actually believe I've seen this. Probably it's older now. I remember now like a city setting and the masks and the dive bombing of the crows. Like I 100% remember watching this. Oh good. Where did it air again? It was on CBC Nature Things and on PBS Nature and I don't know like I've seen this. I was watching this and I'm like this is I was just channel flipping or whatever and I saw it and I stuck around because I found it fascinating. I have seen a murder of crows. Who decided like who decided we need a name for this group of crows and we don't want to use flock. We're tired of using flock. Let's call it a murder. What's the, do you have that intel? Well, that's very much kind of indicative of our view of these crows. We've been scared of our

fearful of crows for centuries. And so the whole Hitchcock before Hitchcock, he just, you know, took that up. Um, and so that's where the murder came from but do you know what a group of Ravens is called I don't but let me think on it actually I don't know a kindness of Ravens I did not you know what that's a I'm gonna drop that one on my seven-year-old tonight it'll blow his mind and this a kindness of Ravens which really speaks to you know why are Ravens a kindness and crows are a murder when they're in a group? Better PR. Well, because crows, you know, picked on the dead and, you know, on the battlefield and

they'll get a meal wherever they can. So you know, we've, we've had this sort of idea of crows being creepy for millennia. Somebody not me made a joke about like the difference difference between a rat and a squirrel was like the stylist. If you remove that big fluffy tail from the squirrel, I think we're all creeped out by this thing running around our backyards. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah.

They need a better PR agent. Right. So that's what the crows need. They need Jill. Yeah, Jill. Jill, can you help out the crows, okay? And the rats. Because the ravens have figured it out. And I don't even know if I... If you gave me a like, okay, that's what the Joe, Jill, can you help out the crows? Okay. And the ravens have figured it out.

And I don't even know if I, if you gave me like, okay, can I tell the difference between a raven and a crow? Like I know you can. I can. Um, so there's a couple of big things, but most people can't, uh, Raven is about 25% bigger, which of course you'll recognize right away. Um, I, I remember square crow. So squares, uh, crowsows tail feathers are in a square

and ravens are in a pie. Okay. And their beaks are different. Crows have longer beaks and ravens have more stocky thick beaks. Reminds me of like, okay, is that a rabbit or a hair? Like there's a there's these subtle differences. And then I made a film on rabbits and hairs. Yes. What was that called? It was called gosh darn it. Um, you can't remember the name of your own film. Yes. Isn't that bad. I'm worried about you. I know. Let's do a documentary about this. Oh my gosh. It was two films ago. Um, that recent I can Google it for you. It's on cbc. It's on rabbits and uh,

my goodness gracious. Gosh darn it. Oh, that's sad. This is age. Um, is it called rabbits and hairs? No, but it's, it's called I don't remember. That's okay. This is the thrilling part. Is it called, uh, I don't know. Remarkable rabbit remarkable rabbits. That is what it's called. Versus hairs. Yeah, no remarkable rabbits. Okay. Just remarkable. Yes. I see here season two, episode 13, the nature of thingies. It can't be season two It's just a couple of years ago. Anyway, see be it doesn't matter. That's gotta be like season 62 Well, we're gonna get to all that too

Because there's a new host and there's lots going on with the nature of things and we're gonna get there very very soon But okay, Markable rabbit side is so bad. I forgot that nice alliteration there. Come on I can see the boardroom now. We need a we need a name. I like alliteration there. Come on. Thank you very much. I can see the boardroom now. We need a name. I like alliteration. What do we got here? Well, what starts with R? Radical rabbits?

No. You know that boardroom is my kitchen table. Right. Well, I often talk about the team here at Toronto Wagt. And I just, it's me, myself and I, just, you know, we sound bigger if we talk about the team here. Okay.

I'm enjoying this very much. When I think just, you know, we sound bigger. We talked about the team here. Okay. I'm enjoying this very much. When I think of, and again, I am Canadian. I was born here in, I was born in Parkdale in Toronto here at St. Joe's and born and raised in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. And now you and I, when I think of Canada, I think of like, I think of moose and beaver. Like these are the two animals I think of,

even though I've actually never seen, I don't know what this says about me. I've never seen a moose in the wild. You're kidding says about me. I've never seen a moose in the wild. You're kidding. I don't think I've seen a moose in the wild. I want to just because you mentioned earlier cemeteries. So this is a quick tangent and we're going to get back to moose. There's not a lot of moose in cemeteries.

I'm curious how you link those two. The way I link it is I just remember when you were talking about, you know, cemeteries and you can see the nature that I, especially during the pandemic, I would do a lot of bike rides to park lawn cemetery here in Etobicoke and, uh, lots of deer. Like there was lots of deer in park lawn cemetery and I used to see them by the Humber river. I do the Humber trail a lot and I used to see deer down there and it was quite amazing. But so many, so many, so much deer, so many deers, deers, deer. Yeah. Moose is plural as moose, but deers plural is deers. No, I think it's just deer.

Okay. I should know these things. Okay. I'm an English major. Leave me alone here. Okay. But, uh, absolutely, uh, can't mention a cemetery without saying shout out to Ridley Funeral Home.

You move the, uh, lasagna box, but there is a, yeah, that's it. So I know that green thing in your hand right now is a measuring tape and that's courtesy of Ridley Funeral Home. So if you're, I don't know, you're maybe you're filming rabbits and you need to measure them to see if they're a hair or not. You can use the Ridley Funeral Home measuring tape. Actually, what I need to do is I have mini donkeys and I thought this rain, I need to, I need to get them coats.

You're burying the lead here. You have like, like you live in Oxbridge and you have donkeys? I have a horse farm and I have miniature donkeys on it and they are so adorable. And I need to measure their body for a coat because all this rain is a problem. So thank you, I will use this. Shout out to Raley Funeral.

The big ones actually scare them, the metal ones. Hey, so okay, so we're talking about animals that get mistaken for each other. So there's rabbits and hairs and there's ravens and crows and of course alligators and crocodiles. You got a nose and everything. And I think I was in caribou moose and caribou, but also like these, uh, what are they called? Baby donkeys? Do people think they're ponies? Uh, well mine are to see these things. Oh, they look like ponies. I will show you pictures later. All right. They're... I have to see these things. Oh, there's... Do they look like ponies at all? Okay, I will show you pictures later. All right. There...

I have miniature ones. Large ones can look like horses. Okay. Like there are some that are called jacks that are about the size of a horse. How tall are these guys? Mine are about 32 inches. And shout out to Ruby and Bullet. And they are...

I hope they're listening right now. So cute. They're just absolutely... They have my heart. They're really lovely. Play this episode episode for Ruby and what's the other one's name bullet bullet. Okay, I like that Okay, so very much bullet like trigger. Yeah, I get it. It was very clever Okay, so Ridley funeral home proud sponsor of the program before we get to the moose. Do you enjoy Italian food? I do I love a time pause hoping you'd say yes, who the heck doesn't like Italian food. I do. I love Italian food. Pause hoping you'd say yes, because who the heck doesn't like Italian food? I have a large lasagna in my freezer right now that you could take back to Uxbridge with you.

Thank you. That should cover the gas expense there. Okay. So it's delicious. You'll say thank you to me, but really it's thank you, Palma pasta. And all listeners should know if you want authentic Italian food, the Petrucci family own and operate Palma Pasta. They have locations in Mississauga and Oakville. We often have Toronto Mike listener experiences at the Palma's Kitchen location in Mississauga. And they will feed us at TMLX 15, which is going to take place June 27 from 6 to 9 p.m. at Great Lakes Brewery in Southern Etobicoke.

So shout out to Great Lakes Brewery. I have some fresh craft beer that you can take home. Wow, this is like a score. Nobody gives me stuff. No, that's what Tom Wilson from Junkhouse, he came over and said, I do these, he does a lot of CBC stuff. He's like, they don't give you anything. He goes, he comes here, he gets a nice lasagna. That's very nice. Thank you. You're welcome. Did you know you were getting such a, such a swag? I had no idea. Okay. Jill buried the lead on that one herself. Okay. So the beer is going home with you. You got the lasagna, you got the measuring tape. If you have old electronics or cables in your farm there,

it's basically a farm, right? You live in a farm. Amazing. You know, you don't throw that in the garbage because the chemicals end up in our landfill. You go to recyclemyelectronics.ca. The EPRA is accredited locations near you where you can drop that off and have it properly recycled to keep the chemicals out of our landfill.

So thank you, recyclemyelectronics.ca. Got that got that one. We'll do a documentary on that one day and I your investments. You don't have the triple mortgage that farm anymore to make these movies. We'll get you the funding. If there's anything left over, you could learn a lot about investing from the advantaged investor podcast from Raymond James Canada valuable insight from professionals Chris Cooksey does a great job hosting it I highly recommend it the advantaged investor from Raymond James Canada talk to me we're gonna get to the river I tease that magpie river it's coming soon but you know I need to hear a little more about moose. Not moose grumpy for the FOTM listening, but like actual moose. Moose are so cool. They really look like they're built by a committee because they've got these

long legs and necks and these stupid do-flaps and they have all these things that come together, but it actually all is necessary for the environments they move through. So for a year in the life of a twig eater, which is another doc that I made for CBC and PBS and Arte or BBC and the BBC, they, we followed a year in the life of a newborn moose calf in the Rocky Mountains. And we were there within hours of it dropping and we followed it on foot through every season for a full year until its mother shunned it at the end of the year when she was pregnant with a new baby. And it was an incredible adventure because it is really hard to track in five feet of

snow, snowshoeing. And we just found them and kept going with them. And we, we, uh, camped out and we also had a place in Jasper that we would go back to. And, uh, it was a big team and it was an incredible year and a half adventure filming and then another year and a half of putting it together. So, um, amazing film, a year in the life of a twig eater. I'm I'm really, I feel so lucky I got to make that film. Just to spend that much time in the Rockies, it's such an incredible part of the world. And to get to know Moose up close and personal, like, it was incredible.

You have the best life. Like, you've, your job is to film and learn about nature in this beautiful country of ours. I'm so envious of this livelihood of yours. And film all over the world, like for, you know, we were- Not just Canada, like I'm limiting you to Canada. Where have you been? No, well, for raccoons, we were in Japan.

We spent a lot of time in the US. We spent a lot of time for rabbits. We were in Europe a lot. We're all over the world. And we were in, for crows, we were in New Caledonia, which is just off of Australia. We're all over the world and we were in for crows. We were in us. We were in New Caledonia, which is just off of Australia. We're everywhere. I've been everywhere. Susan, I've been everywhere. Amazing. Okay. So we're going to get to the majestic. Oh, thank God. Magpie river. Imagine we just didn't remand at a time. I'm like, ah, we didn't get to the magpie river in northern Quebec. We're going to get there right now, but I have a piece of audio to help us segue over. So let's listen to this.

If you just protect the human right to water, you are not protecting the river. But if you protect the river, you protect at the same time the human right to water. You are protecting the whole ecosystem. We're not going to have a vibrant living planet for us or anything else if we don't change our mindset and our law. We can change laws. I mean a hundred years ago in this country the Elections Act said no woman idiot lunatic or child shall vote you know like we can change. Talk to me first, tell me about the Magpie River. Well, first I'll tell you about the clip. So the first speaker is an incredible lawyer called Yenny Vega Cardenas. And she was the powerhouse behind getting the Magpie River legal personhood. Her and her team worked really closely

with the Innu and with local non-Indigenous people to push this through. And the second clip was by Maude Barlow, the incredible Maude Barlow who is just a force of nature. She's so inspiring. She's just got so much passion for the environment. I really have enjoyed getting to know her so much. So though both of those people are featured in the film and uh, they're the kind of people you meet that make a difference in your life. Like they're inspiring. I want to be a better person because I've been able to hang out with both of them. Okay. I'm so intrigued. So tell me, tell me more in great detail. Like tell me about the magpie river and then we have to dive into

like why would you like, why would you grant? What are the benefits of exactly specifically of granting legal personhood to like a part of nature? Like nature is not people, right? How do you like I am so intrigued by this all. Well, before I tell you about the Magpie, I'll just say that, you know, legal personhood is a legal construct. And so, you know, we have, you know know legal personhood is a legal construct and so, you know, we have you know Legal personhood but corporations have legal personhood. Um Charities have legal personhood ships have legal personhood. So if Walmart can have legal personhood, why can a river or forest? It's just a misnomer, right? You just need to rebrand this thing

We really do it just means that you have rights under the law, that you can have a voice in our courts. So by the Magpie River gaining legal personhood, it has a voice in our court system. And for good or for bad, everything in this country and in most, you know, first world countries runs by a court system. So it just seems like an idea that time has come that the natural world should be able to speak up for itself or have guardians that speak up for itself or have guardians that speak up for itself to say, Hey, you don't get to damn me or you don't get to build a garbage, you know, dump in the middle of my trees. And so it really is one of those things that once you start to wrap your head around makes perfect sense. Well, later in this conversation, after I get a

better understanding of, you know, the glory of the majestic glory of the Magpie River and a little bit more about the actual river itself, I have, it was sent to me by Jill actually, that I have these nine rights. These are the nine rights the Magpie River was granted with legal personhood. And maybe we can can walk just walk through them at the end of this convo but first for the ignorant Torontonians who are like I don't know where or what the Magpie River is let's educate these ignoramuses most people don't know where the Magpie River I feel better now I was yesterday I had a guy he wonderful guy named Sean Burns who lives in Winnipeg. And he's really into

what's called like lost country, he calls it. It's the country musicians and songs that seem to be lost to history, like no one, they're so obscure in this country, like specifically to Canada. So we did this deep dive into lost country and he would drop names that aren't like, Oh, these are not lost country musicians. Everybody knows these people. And he dropped a name, like a huge name that like a literally of an artist who performed on tears are not enough, the charity single in 1985. And I heard the name and I was like, I don't know this name. Like it just never, it didn't resonate with me at all.

Like I am so, I felt such shame for not knowing Carol Baker, for example. How do I not know Carol Baker? Like how do you not know Carole Baker? I know, I know Anne Murray. Yeah. It's firstly, it starts by like not having any interest in country music.

So when you're exposed, like unlike when I saw the dive, the crows dive bombing in that city, Seattle, I got to stick around and learn more. I'm intrigued. But when I'm channel surfing or on the radio or anywhere and there's a country song I'm gone. Like I just flip away. See I like country. That's how I know. Okay I just feel terrible that this artist literally is singing with like I think with Randy Backman I'm not sure yeah, but they're on tears are not enough and I did not know Carol Baker

So I feel that shame of being such so ignorant and then when I learned the Magpie River, I'm like, I don't know the Magpie River. Maybe I'll pretend like some dumb listeners don't know the Magpie River and then she'll explain it to me and I'll know. But now you're telling me a lot of people don't know the Magpie River. And you know, that whole section, the whole North Shore of Quebec is not something that even Quebecers know a lot about. It's huge swaths of wilderness, without roads through a lot of it, so it's difficult to get to.

I mean, this was, so the Magpie River runs, it's just incredible. It's one of the last free-flowing wild rivers in Northern Quebec, an area that has many, many, or had many, many wild, long, wild rivers. But so many of them have been dammed for hydroelectric power.

So the magpie runs from the headwaters are at the border of Labrador in Quebec. So all the way up there in the north and it tumbles all the way down through this incredible shield and waterfalls and the granite cliffs. Yes, super like they're, you know, like skyscrapers all around you. And through pristine boreal forests, and it comes out at the Gulf of St. Lawrence. So it's almost 300 kilometers long, and it starts in Tundra,

and then goes through boreal forest. It has a really diverse habitat all around it. And most people don't know about it, because in order to get to travel the Magpie River, you have to helicopter in or float Plane in it's thick forest. You can't move through there's only one way down which is on the river which is class You know three four and five. It's really big rapids And I've done it twice. It is tough

And so a lot of people don't know about it But they should because this whole area is just it's part of the largest boreal forest On the planet. We're not talking just Canada. We're talking on the planet It's this contiguous boreal forest that runs all the way from BC to Labrador it is full of links and osprey and bear and Woodland caribou which are endangered like so many beautiful animals in the water is just incredibly cold and bubbling because it's moving over rocks at a high speed. There's these huge speckled trout in it which I've never seen such colorful fish in my life.

It is really an incredible part of the world. And the Inu who live in that area are called the Innu of Ukunichit. That's the community. And they have been fighting for over 20 years to protect this river. They don't it's for them, it's really sacred and they don't want to see it be damned by Hydro-Quebec, which has it's been threatened to be damned. That's like it means two things being damned. It does. And almost like the same thing synonymously. They have been fighting as have the local population, but for the Innu, the rocks are

ancestors. Like they've traveled this river for millennia. This is part of their territorial lands and they're very protective of them, rightly so. So it was really incredible, one, to be able to get their permission to come on these lands and to make this film, to learn more about how they view the river and their long history with the river, how they get medicine, like they call it their pharmacy. There's medicines they collect all along the river, it's their grocery store. They've, for family after family, have traveled

up this river every summer and then traveled back down to have supplies for the winter. And so it was really special to be able to spend time with them and on this river because I've never been near anything like it. Like it's so loud. How long did you spend on the the magpie? We probably spent two months on the river just a go, but then we went up for, I probably have been on it for like 10 day trips besides that for eight times, so six months at least, maybe seven, and all through the season. So in the middle of winter went, oh my God, we were at the headwaters of the mag pie in February. It was negative 40, the helicopter land and landed. And I thought I was

ready to jump out, which is what we normally do. You know, you jump out, you have to have your snow shoes on and make yourself as big as possible because you're just going to drop like six feet into snow and digging out is exhausting. So you try to make yourself big so you don't drop too far into the snow. Well, we just got out and we were on rock.

I thought it was gonna be just complete snow cover. It is just ancient rock up there. 40 kilometer, no, 140, like we couldn't stand up. The wind was so strong and just the reason there was no snow is it's moving all that snow over the rocks. We, you would get frostbite if your skin was exposed for more than a minute. We were literally the camera system and I are throwing our bodies in front of

the tripod so the cameraman can film because what's the matter? Oh, no, no, I'm listening to you. Okay. Um, because that's my, uh, fascinating story face. You did with the wind was so strong. He couldn't get purchase on the rocks. That's my fascinating story face. The wind was so strong he couldn't get purchase on the rocks. And yet at the same time it was magical. I've never been anywhere like that and I've been all over the world. So it was really incredible filming up there and we've done it all through the seasons.

We were there in the heart of winter several times. Um, we were there for spring, which is just this incredible fresh at the melt where all the waters off the headway and all through the lands come down into the river at points. The river grows a hundred feet. I mean, it's just rushing. Everything's melting. It's incredible.

Um, and in summer, there are so many black flies. Um, it's just, I'm canceling my trip here. I was on my phone booking my trip to the magpie. You know what? Go in late. There's the last two weeks of August and September. Unbelievable. Not a black fly in sight. First time I went was August. I did not know there were that many black flies. When I went back in July, I almost died. Um, you know, Gordon Lightfoot could have had a song Black Flies in July. Yes, very Canadian. So yeah it's an incredible part of the world. It's really, you know National Geographic named it one of the top five paddling destinations in the world.

I'll bet. So it's amazing. The Magpie River. So Susan I'm listening to you talk about the Magpie River. I love listening to you talk. I can't imagine that we get to see this footage on February 1st on CBC or CBC Gem. It's amazing. We have to protect the Magpie. We do. And so many other things. We have to protect the Magpie. We have to protect forests. We have to protect the breeding grounds for the orca in BC. There's just so many things we need to protect in this new legal precedent. This idea of rights of nature and legal personhood for natural phenomena is something we need

to embrace. It's really going to be a game changer for conservation groups around the world and in Canada. Absolutely. It allows you to formally recognize the inherent value of nature, which is amazing. And I was reading in the notes that other countries have done this. So Chile and Australia, Bolivia and New Zealand, for example, have done this and now the Magpie River.

So when did this happen? When did this designation, when did this happen for the Magpie? When did they get granted the right of legal personhood? It happened in 2021 through sister resolutions from the Inu of Okonichit, the Council of the Inu of Okonichit and the local county of Manganee in Quebec, which is the size of Ireland. We're not talking about a small place. Like it's a huge area that is administered by the Mungani Council or County. And so those two sister resolutions went forward and because of the Indigenous support and participation, further protection is gained by the UN Council on Indigenous rights. So that puts kind of a world protection on it. But you know nothing is ever secure. The battle, like this is an incredible accomplishment and took

years and years of work and I'm so inspired by everyone who put their energies into it. But they have to keep fighting. You know Hydro-Québec is very strong. They continually want to develop the magpie among other rivers but it's one of the last big rivers like this So they still have their sights on it. And so, you know, this is an important accomplishment, but the fight is definitely not over No, no, that's I'm glad you're shining the light on this So where in this process did you decide that you would seek funding to make this film? Like is it when you did you open up the paper one day and see oh the the Magpie River is being granted the right of legal personhood. We should explore that like where did you get this idea? That's

exactly it. I read it and I thought what is this idea of legal personhood for a river? I've never heard of that and I started doing the research and read about the Wanganui River in New Zealand and how that was protected and about Bolivia and in Ecuador. And I just thought this is incredible that this is possible. And so the more I read about it, the more I thought, I want to go see this river. I want to meet the people who fought so hard for this and who came up with this brilliant idea.

And then I realized it's been around since the 1970s. A BC lawyer named Stone came up with this brilliant idea and then I realized it's been around since the 1970s, you know, a BC lawyer named Stone came up with this idea. And so it's been around for a long time. That's a perfect name for like an environment lawyer. It's true. Stone. But you know what's interesting? It's just starting to catch on.

Like it's really gaining strength. And so, and what I love about the magpie is it's the first natural phenomena in the world that's gained legal personhood through joint efforts from indigenous and non-indigenous people. Everything else has been put forward by indigenous people. And so this idea that we can all join together to make this kind of massive change for our community and our world, I find that really exciting. No, this is, I'm very excited. Okay.

I can't fake excitement on this show. This is all real now You explained earlier you don't want to triple mortgage your home to make these things So you had the idea after you know, you're always on the lookout for these interesting subjects to to to make films about and you learn about the magpie River and then you're like I want to do this and You do whatever so then do you go to CBC and say I would like to do this I need this much funding to make it happen is that essentially how it works? Well you have to kind of figure out your concepts and how you're going to approach it and this was a little different because it's not a cute animal with a face and ears that people are

gonna fall in love with right so it's a big picture Sal and much to my incredible amazement and forever appreciation I went to Sue Dando who's the commissioning editor of CBC's The Nature Things and she got it like we've worked together quite a lot that doesn't mean she's gonna say yes in any way and she really got it and saw the long-term effects of this kind of legislation and how it can change our world and she was our champion and she really helped push this through We got tele Quebec on board. We got ZDF in Germany and Arte in France

and my co-producers who are Terra in you productions in in Quebec and so all of us, you know just joined together to make make this happen You know, I'm just a regular guy here in my basement chatting you up but I think this is more impressive than the girl with the million dollar legs. I just want to say that Susan Fleming not interested in the girl with the million dollar legs. I'm more interested in learning about the Magpie River here. Okay and I mentioned I teased earlier I had the the nine rights which we're gonna get

to in a moment I'm just going to read to you some real-time comments on the live stream is at live dot toronto mic com sounds like an incredible journey makes me want to watch the doc that's the whole point right Susan yeah and stream it on I feel like they don't know like there's no mechanism to say that you know somebody watched you know unless somebody watched, you know, unless you're carrying one of those PBM devices, which very few people have, they don't know when you watch, but they do, they do.

I feel they have metrics for streaming. Like I think it's better for you that they stream it on gem because they can actually see, Oh, there's a unique stream happening from this IP address. You see, they can't track that on television. It's true. I mean there is like I'm just thinking about your benefiting you like hey there's we got lots of we need to do more of this. I'll take it any which way you can watch it. I really will. Watch it both. Watch it both. And I think when you stream it you have to leave it on for a certain amount of time. I don't know.

How long is this dog? It's an hour right? It's an hour. Yeah yeah and the nature of things and uh who's the current uh I know the answer, but who is the current host of The Nature of Things? Well, there's two. There's Surika Kalas Suzuki, who is the narrator of this film, and she did a really great job and really impressed. That's quite the last name, Suzuki. Where have I heard that before?

But she's a marine biologist, so she was really into it. Because one of the things we really explore in the doc is this idea of freshwater and the importance of fresh water. I think it's gonna be the next oil, especially for Canada, because it's a resource that is not infinite and it is so critical to human health and life, and we have an abundance and we're taking it for granted.

And one of the things we really explore in the film is the importance of fresh water that comes from things like the river. Like the oceans get fed by the rivers. Like everybody's on ocean conservation and no one's on river conservation. I think this is gonna be the next big cause that we need to embrace.

Well, you, you know, creating awareness by, you know, producing this documentary that will premiere on CBC's The Nature of Things Thursday, February 1st at 9 p.m. Eastern. You can send me the check later, Jill, that was quite the sell. But this is creating awareness.

I didn't know about the Magpie River. I didn't know about this. We're gonna talk about the nine rights right now. I like the fact she's a Suzuki, there's a marine biologist, because I always think that when George Costanza would tell people he was a marine biologist, right? That was not true. Suzuki is a marine biologist. She is indeed. Okay. That was a good episode of Seinfeld. Okay. So let's walk through this before I find out and

prepping you for this, Susan, like I'm going to want to know at least a clue of like what will the next you probably already working on it, but what's the next project going to know? You got to read the nine rights. Don't, don't dissuade from that. This is the tease. But what's the next project going to be? No, no, you got to read the nine rights. Don't dissuade from that. This is the tease. Like that's coming up after the nine rights. We're doing the nine rights right now. You ready? And I'll do it one at a time. Maybe I'll just do them all. Okay. The nine rights the Magpie River was granted with legal personhood. Number one, the right to live, to exist, and to flow. I like that.

It's great. That's great. Okay. So the right to live, to exist, and to flow. Okay. Number two. And live. So you're recognizing it as an entity with life.

Right. Love this. And I love that this precedent gets set with the Magpie River and like there's so many applications on the live stream. There was some hope that we protect our Toronto watershed and headwaters more in the future. Oh, so important. Maybe that's the next doc.

We'll talk about that in a moment. Okay. Number two, the right to the Reese to the respect for its natural cycles. That's awkward as I read it. The right to the respect for it to respect for its natural. Okay. There's a typo in my notes. I'm sorry I'm gonna blame Jill for this gel. You've ruined everything delete. Okay the right to respect its natural cycles

So the fresh at in the spring where the big melt happens So, you know as the seasons go through the river changes Excellent number three the right to evolve naturally, to be protected and preserved speaks for itself. Very important. Okay. Number four, I feel like David Letterman now number four, the right to maintain its natural biodiversity, which is huge. I mean, cause if you start putting chemicals into a river, you affect all the diversity. And we see that even with damming, like damming changes the water temperature, it changes the flow of nutrients. So animals can't rely on the river anymore. In fact, in some instances, it becomes poisonous for them. Natural diversity also involves things

like nesting sites, like if you change or reroute rivers, which they do when they damn, they flood over areas that are natural nesting. You're messing with a natural ecosystem. Completely messing with it. And unpredictably, which makes it an impossible environment for animals to live in. Look, you can't say it on the nature of things. I'm gonna say right now, that would be bullshit.

Okay, I'm just gonna throw it out there. Okay. Well, what is bullshit? Hold on. Is that your next documentary? No. No, to mess with a natural ecosystem. Oh, okay. Like if you start damming this, damn the damming of the magpie river. Okay number five

The right to perform its essential functions within its ecosystem Which is everything from being able to do the big melt to flow into the Gulf of st. Lawrence So it's it's just it has to be able to go through everything it's gone through for millennia. And there's so many ways outside of dams that we can affect that that we need to be cognizant of. Number six, the right to maintain its integrity. Yes, which is part of the whole thing of legal personhood is recognizing that things like rivers or forests have a value outside of what they can do for us

That they have inherent value unto themselves And I think that is a big paradigm shift that once you really start to think about it and young people get it They say of course but people of my age, you know It's a it's a real concept to embrace and and it's a struggle, but you really if you start to think about it It makes perfect sense Number seven this also makes perfect sense the right to be free from pollution All right number eight the right to regenerate and be restored Yes, so I mean the whole regeneration actually speaks not just to the river

But all the area around the river like the river gets its water from the runoff, um, from snowmelt and you know, global warming is really affecting that snowmelt. So this speaks to a much bigger issue. And here, I think this is one, we're going to need some more Susan on the end of this one, but this is kind of everything here. The right to sue. This is the biggie. This is the teeth and the right to sue comes through legal guardians who are appointed by the indigenous and non-indigenous community who put this measure forward and got legal personhood. So they are going to appoint a couple of guardians. Usually it's

three who speak for the river in court And they already have people on the ground who are monitoring the river, making sure that everything is going as it should, so who will report back if there's changes or pollution or projects where, you know, anything like that damming. Because it's so remote, you need local people who are going to keep their eye on this river, and it's 300 kilometers long. I mean, it's not an easy thing to keep their eye on this river and it's 300 kilometers long. I mean it's not an easy thing to keep your eye on and so these guardians will represent the river in court and that's really the bite because if you don't have the right to sue a corporation has the right to sue if you do something to Walmart

Walmart's gonna take you to court guess what you think about it before you do something to Walmart well you should have to think about it before you do something to the magpie. Absolutely, Absolutely. The right to sue is the bite there. That's everything here. Now, this air is February 1. So hopefully people jump on this episode of Toronto Miked. Maybe they catch up on the weekend and then they're all set to go to CBC Jam or watch CBC on February 1st and they can see it. They can learn more. Amazing. I'm so glad you dropped by to tell me about this. But do you know what your next project is going to be about?

They do, but I never tell anyone. So, OK, obviously, you don't want to show your cards here, but maybe you give us like a like a clue. Are we back to animals? Yes. Back to us because we left animals for a river. But now we're back to animals. I will give you one clue. OK. back to animals. So because we left animals for a river, but now we're back to animals. I will give you one clue. Okay.

Beep beep. Okay. It's a road runner. Okay. That clue is, I thought you were going to be like a real subtle thing. Like it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's,

it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, thinking like, Oh yeah, maybe, uh, okay, very interesting. I'll start thinking on it. Okay, so I might as well tell you it's beep beep the true story of Roadrunners Okay, don't forget the title like you forgot the poor rabbit title here, but Susan How was this experience for you making your trauma debut? That's a long drive you made from uxbridge Well worth it. Well worth it. This was fantastic for the las lasagna? Is that why? No, for you and the lasagna. Well thanks for telling us about, hey, it's just, again, I'm going to borrow from the

live stream because the people in the live stream are more eloquent than I am, but incredible that a river has legal rights. Thanks for going through these. This is like mind blows and fun facts and there's gonna be so much more in the doc that we can all see on CBC gem or on CBC on February 1st and I really appreciate you telling me all about it and thank you Jill for that line that hooked me you want to hear the line again before we say goodbye? Thank you Jill.

This is the truth and Cam Gording can attest to this because he was in PR and he used to pitch me on all these things and I did this thing with him which is rude. I completely ignored it because I get so many. And Jill's sentence that got me was, the beautiful and fast flowing Magpie River in northern Quebec has become Canada's first natural phenomenon to be granted legal personhood. So A, I didn't know about this magpie river. I had no idea that some piece of nature, some natural phenomenon could be granted legal personhood like as you said, like a corporation or a boat or whatever. Like this was a mind

blow to me. And then when I learned the subject matter expert would drive from Uxbridge and tell me about it. And I'd get some bonus fun facts about crows and raccoons and moose. I said you had me at hello, Jill. Let's make this happen. So thank you, Jill. Thank you, Susan. I hope that this documentary, I am the Magpie River is a huge success. Thank you. And thank you for this today. And that brings us to the end of our 1,418th show. You can follow me on Twitter and Blue Sky and at Toronto Mike. We've already learned you're not on social media, Susan, but is there any website we can go to to learn about what's going on with your filmmaking anywhere you want to send us?

Nowhere. OK, you just got to go to episode 1418 to learn everything about Susan Fleming. It's all right here. Much love to all who made this possible. That's Great Lakes Brewery, Palm Apostas, don't leave without your lasagna, Recycle My Electronics, Raymond James Canada, and Ridley Funeral Home. See you all Monday. It's the return of Brother Bill. He's back on the radio in Edmonton. We're gonna talk about what's

new with Brother Bill aka Neil Morrison. That's happening Monday. See you all then. every day. But I wonder who, yeah, I wonder who, maybe the one who doesn't realize there's a thousand shades of gray. Cause I know that's true, yes I do, I know it's true, yeah,

I know it's true, how about you? I'll have picking up trash and then putting down rogues. I know it's true, how about you? They're picking up trash and they're putting down ropes And they're brokering stocks, the class struggle explodes And I'll play this guitar just the best that I can