Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Tamara Cherry: Toronto Mike'd Podcast Episode 1506

Episode Date: June 14, 2024

In this 1506th episode of Toronto Mike'd, Mike chats with former Toronto Star, Toronto Sun and CTV Toronto news reporter Tamara Cherry about her career in news media, why she left Toronto, and The Trauma Beat. Toronto Mike'd is proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, Ridley Funeral Home, The Advantaged Investor podcast from Raymond James Canada, The Yes, We Are Open podcast from Moneris, The Toronto Maple Leafs Baseball Team and RecycleMyElectronics.ca. If you would like to support the show, we do have partner opportunities available. Please email Toronto Mike at [e-mail]

Welcome to episode 1506 of Toronto Miked, proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, a fiercely independent craft brewery who believes in supporting communities, good times and brewing amazing beer. Order online for free local home delivery in the GTA. Palma Pasta, enjoy the taste of fresh homemade Italian pasta and entrees from Paul Mapasta in Mississauga and Oakville. The Toronto Maple Leafs baseball team. The best baseball in the city outside the dome. Join me there at Christie Pitts, 2pm on July 7th. I got Mike Richards and a cast of hundreds lined up, including CEO Keith Stein, the man with

the plan. Join me then again, July 7th. Recycle MyElectronics.ca, committing to our planet's future means properly recycling our electronics of the past. Season 6 of Yes We Are Open, an award winning Menaris podcast hosted by FOTM Al Gregor and Ridley Funeral Home, pillars of the community since 1921. Today, making her Toronto mic debut is Tamara Cherry. Yay! Tamara, I can tell you now, I can reveal this finally for the first time. I was so worried. I would call you tomorrow

That I heard you on YouTube I listen to you say Tamara and I made a trick in my mind like Tamara like Mary Like mother Mary and I basically train myself mother Mary just it's a common reference So, you know, you're so holy and I saw you when you arrived, I'm like, okay, I'm in the presence of greatness. Tamara Cherry, welcome to Toronto Mike. Thank you for having me. And just so you know, Mike, I would not be offended if you called me Tamara, Tamra. I like my- What about Tammy?

My, you know what, actually, so I found, I would think that I'm talking to one of my aunties because my aunties, my late grandparents, they would call me Tammy. I was Tammy to them. I have friends who are Tammy. my aunties because my aunties, my late grandparents, they would call me Tammy, I was Tammy to them. I have friends who are Tammy, Tammy Sutherland from Breakfast Television. She and I used to work in the field together for years,

we were both crime reporters and we called each other Tammy one and Tammy two, I don't remember which one was which but I love her. And my husband is from Brazil so actually when he says my name quote unquote correctly, it sounds really weird. And I'll be like, sometimes just be like, just say it. He's like, Tamera.

I'm like, it's so weird. But he usually says it like Tamera, Tamara. Tomato, Tamado, Tamera, Tamara. Yeah, Kenshaw at CTV used to call me Tomato. You mean Kenshaw, Kenshaw. Okay, I love these name drops. All these great people who have never been in the basement, but keep it up. I like it. And maybe one day with your

support we'll get them to make their trauma because Ken Shaw is a guy, because I have a blind spot. I'm going to review. I had to share this with Dana Levinson when I first met her that I don't actually consume any CTV news and I only know from promos. And I know these people just because they're famous in Ken Shaw. Like I didn't have to watch Ken Shaw to know how to do a Ken Shaw impression. He's just a, you know, a pillar of the community, really funeral home style. But Ken Shaw, does he take your calls? Oh yeah. I mean, I don't call him.

It's okay. So I got, I got some, I got a beef with you, Mike. Oh God. You've called me a few times. I've got a few calls. I've got a few calls. I've got a few calls. I've got a few calls. Ken Shaw, does he take your calls? Oh yeah, I mean, I don't call him. Okay, so I got a beef with you, Mike. Oh God, already at the top?

You've called people. I'm still warming you up. You've called people on whether they're good friends with people based on whether they talk on the phone. How often do you talk to them? Well, like will they answer your text? Or will they return your phone call? Okay, so there's a lot of people that I consider

like good friends who I maybe only talk to like once a year Or once every couple people you meet that you just love so Ken Shaw I'm trying to think do we ever text each other he emails me every once in a while or like for example Especially with I I'm sure he'd be okay with me saying this but like with all like the trauma research And I've done and everything and I've been very public about certain things That I couldn't have imagined years ago being public about since leaving CTV and every once in a while I'll get an email from Ken Shaw being like tomato you were a great reporter and that one story that you did was just so good and blah blah

I'm like no Ken but I shouldn't have done it that way I should and he he'll send me these really long emails and it's so kind. Well, that's a friend. Are you kidding me? Yeah, but I don't text him. Okay, but you're calling me out for what exactly? Well, because say you ask people, be like, oh, okay, well, do you have them in your phone?

I don't know if I have Ken's current number. I don't know, I know what his email address is. Well, you know what you are is you're basically respecting, mutually respecting colleagues. Yes. You're not friends. No, there's, when you're in a newsroom, it's often a family. I know it's so cliche, but it's true.

And that's the hardest part about leaving the business, honestly. Well, we're gonna talk about all this. Firstly, I need to know, are you related at all to Dawn Cherry? I've never been asked that before. Well, I'm here to ask all the tough questions. I can't believe you asked me that.

Oh my gosh, I didn't have a response prepared. If not Dawn Cherry, then I need to ask you about Nina Cherry and Eagle Eye Cherry because there's two famous Dawn Cherries. No, no. Okay. So I have a first no relation to Dawn Cherry that I'm aware of, but I do have a funny story about that. So it's so funny. Like maybe you've gotten this before like sometimes people can be very presumptuous based on your name. So when I worked at CTV for example sometimes people would email me and they'd be like hi Cherry. I'm like did you just assume out of Tamara and Cherry that Cherry's

my first name? I've actually gotten that multiple times. Hi Cherry. That said I emailed Donovan Vincent at the Toronto Star the other day and my brain was so tired. I called him Vincent and I know him. I've had conversations with him. He's like, and by the way, my name is Donovan. I'm like, I know that. I just, my brain doesn't function. He's got two first names. I think he set you up to fail. So anyway, when I was working at CTV, it was rare that I was actually in the newsroom, but one time I was in the newsroom and I went to my little buggy Buddy, but no, is it buggy? No locker whatever and I got my where do they keep you guys at Bell Media?

Oh in the dungeon. No, I'm just joking. No, I went into the newsroom I went to my little mailbox and I had this Package this like big brown envelope and I opened it up and there was this very professionally put together media package about some arena that was being proposed to be like a hockey arena that was going to be built in Mississauga or something. And it was addressed to me, it said, dear Miss Cherry, please share this with your father. Your dad, Don. I'm like, what? I'm like, first of all, how old do you think I am that you think on cherry is my dad? I think at that point

I was probably like 30 or something. You look like Don's great-granddaughter to me. Yeah, right there. Yeah, there you go Anyway, no relation to Don Cherry. Okay, and then no need no eagle. I know No, and there's also a Paul cherry who is a journalist in Canada No, and there's also Paul Cherry, who is a journalist in Canada, not related to him. Oh, Gare Joyce pointed out a long time, like many decades ago, there was a Globe and Mail writer with the last name Cherry, a woman, and whose first name I forget. But okay, so there are Cherries amongst us, and you're one of the Cherries that I picked to be on Toronto Mike as an ad team. Thank you very much. See, tell 1010 I can make quips like that on the fly. Let them know I'm flying blind. No edits. Okay. You're here to go back to 1010 and say you should have seen what I witnessed today.

That's what I love. That's what I do too with my podcast. This is why I was so excited to come on with you. Okay. Do you want to do the here? So we, I want to set the table and then I want to do a little chat about, you know, lighter stuff. Like, No, I'm actually looking forward to the later stuff. That's why I'm so excited to be here. But it will get heavy at some point because at some point I will discuss with you the Trauma Beat. Yeah. A case for rethinking the business of bad news. Like I read this book of yours and it's not light material. Did you actually read it? Yeah.

You sent me a book and I read it. Are you surprised by that? I know. But like, so it's funny because I'm hosting a radio show in Saskatchewan next week and I'm going to have an author on and I just saw in the calendar from the producer yesterday that there's going to be an author on and that apparently he had shared a copy of his book and I said can you send this to me? I'm not going to have time to read the whole thing. Okay, but you'll do a good job. Okay, so when I have on somebody like Ben Johnson and Mary Ormsby sends me the new book about Ben Johnson, you know, like I'm not not gonna read it every word, like I'm reading Lord of the Rings or whatever,

but I'm gonna read it. I'm gonna go through it all and I'm gonna kinda do this skim read, okay? I'll confess, I can't read every word of every book I'm sent. But why are you on the radio in Saskatchewan? Where the hell do you live, Tamara Cherry? Everywhere.

That's City TV. Everywhere all at once. I live in Regina. I saw this, Regina, we'll get right back to it but I did read your book and I saw this name right here the following program contains adult themes nudity in coarse language viewer and parental discretion is advised so I read his name that is the voice of course we'll call him Mark Daly and when you said the word oh yeah the following program contains adult

themes nudity in coarse language viewer and parental discretion is it only one when you said the word. I didn't know that that was his, oh yeah. The following program contains adult themes, nudity in coarse language, viewer and parental discretion is advised. Only one person sounds like that, okay? But when you said the word everywhere, I then thought of. City news everywhere. Yeah, city TV everywhere. Yes.

That's what old farts like me think when you're born and raised in Toronto, okay. So you now live in Regina and how long have you been living in? I won't even do a joke about the name Regina cause that's., that's fine. That's beneath me. Okay, I've heard it It's like but you know, I've never heard it before just like nobody's ever asked me if I'm related to Don Cherry Well, you know it all because you've been asked a question many times. That's more reason Let's get this on the official because when you die and I'm doing some math in my head. It's gonna be in

70 years. Okay, So when you pass away in 70 years and Ridley funeral home is taking possession of your body. I've actually asked my family, send me back to Toronto. You might be here at that point. Who knows? Right. But in 70 years, when you pass away, this conversation we're having now is going to be revisited by people who want to hear Tamara Cherry's story. This is actually going to become suddenly a very relevant episode and I'll be long gone. Skip the obit, just play my Toronto Mike episode number 1000.

So then we need to find out, was this Dawn Cherry's daughter? We need to fact check this. Right. Okay. And Mark Daly, I read his name in your book because he was on CP 24. City News. Well, then City Pulse. What was it? Yeah. There's a weird, we'll get into, but you don't have to get into it. City Pulse and City CP 24. They had their divorce when Bell got one and Rogers had the other and you know what that's like. Okay. So you're living in Regina. Yep. I'm born and raised in Regina. Okay. Moved out to Toronto in 2006,

skipped my convocation from the University of Regina Journalism School to do an internship at the Toronto Star. Thought I'd be here for four months. It was my hairdresser here in Toronto who said, you're going to be here longer than four months. I'm like, no, I'm pretty sure my contract ends in September or whatever. He's like, you just wait, you just watch. So then my contract was extended another like eight months. He's like, you see? And then it was like another four months. He's like, you see?

And then another month. And then 15 years later, I went back to Regina, one husband and three kids heavier than when I left. And I've been there ever since. But did you marry a Toronto guy? He's a Brasiliano. Oh yes, you're right. He's Brazilian. See, I'm not paying attention. He was a Toronto guy? He's a Brasileiro. Oh yes, you're right. He's Brazilian.

See, I'm not paying attention. He was living here though. He had been here longer than me. But what did he think about leaving Toronto for Regina? Oh, I eased him into it. So he's from Sao Paulo, a city that has more people. The greater Sao Paulo area has more people than all of Canada.

He went from Sao Paulo to Toronto. Oh, the small town of Toronto. And then I got him out to Ajax after we had our first kid. Okay, you know, this is a very small center, which feels bigger because it's connected to the GTA. And then I eased him into Regina. And he was honestly, I've got the most amazing husband ever. He's always just been like, you know, if I say something,

what if I do this, like when I quit my job, well we can discuss that. I'm sure you'll ask me about what does it mean? Did you quit? Were you fired? Blah, blah, blah. When I left CTV, he was never like, oh, I don't know. Like me being the main breadwinner, I've always been the main breadwinner in our family,

he was never like, oh, can we make it work? It was like, okay, how can I support you? And it's the same when we went to Regina, I wanted to be close to my family and all my nieces and nephews and stuff like that. And well, you're from there. It makes sense to think if you're from there, it makes sense. You'd want to go. You'd want to go home again.

I just wondered how he's adapted to. He's adapted very well. He's into jujitsu there. He's got his little jujitsu community. He's also very antisocial so he could really get along very, very well. He's going to love Regina. He loves it. We've been there for like three and a half years now.

Four and a half years. I don't know. 2020, October, it's like a pandemic. But how is it, Tamara, again, we're going to bounce around, but I'm keeping track in my adult brain here. Keep me on my toes. But how are you making 1010 appearances from, so you're doing it from your home in Regina? Like, is this like, you're just phoning it in?

It's so funny. Literally, well, not phoning it in, zooming it in when I'm on 1010. So I, I don't know if you're aware of this, Mike, but I actually started hosting shows for 1010 and across the iHeart radio talk network during the pandemic, but everybody was virtual at that point. So I'm like, when I, like when I started doing round tables on 1010, it was shortly after I left CTV. So it was like early, you know when it was, it was actually, it was right after Christy Blatchford died. And then they asked me to start doing a roundtable because they had me on talking about her.

And I started on the roundtables. And I think that I was in studio with John Moore three or four times before the pandemic hit. It's like, suddenly we went home. And then when I moved to Regina the following October, I was like, well, goodbye Toronto. You will never want to talk to me again. And I get there and yeah, Mike, Ben Dixon, who was running the station at the time said, hey, you want to try hosting your own show?

I'm like, I don't know what I have no idea how radio works. I don't know anything about the radio. He's like, what have you started on like a weekend show? I'm like, I don't know what, I have no idea how radio works. I don't know anything about the radio. He's like, what if you started on like a weekend show? I'm like, no, that's my time with my kids. Like, what if you did some fill in work? I'm like, yeah, sure, I'll do that. And I did it and I loved it. So for like a few years or a couple of years,

whatever it was, I've done fill in radio hosting over Zoom from home, but now they don't really call me anymore. I think it's cause it's like, maybe the gig is up. People know she's in Regina. I've never been secretive about it. But you were on yesterday. That's a roundtable. So we can. So it's a weekly roundtable. I don't hear any 10 10. I need to learn from you. And then I always talk about on the roundtable that I'm that I'm in Saskatchewan and I give that Saskatchewanian

perspective. But yeah, when I'm in town, I like to make an in-person appearance and see all these people that I love in person. Okay. I'm catching up now in the Tamara's Cherry story here. Now when do they have other guest hosts who are remote on 1010 or is everybody at like 299 Queen or whatever? So last night I was on with Jim Richards for his like national show that runs from I think 7 to 11. And we actually pre-taped a segment.

And so I think I was in the studio, I think, at like five o'clock. And his studio where we do pre-records there is right next to the Rush studio. And it might be like there. Which is hostless right now. Where, whatever. And the chair was empty.

I'm like, who's hosting? He's like, it's Shane. I'm like, where is he? It's like in Alberta. I'm like, who's hosting? He's like, it's Shane. I'm like, where is he? He's like, in Alberta. I'm like, what? So I'm like, okay, but they're not calling me anymore. I thought it was because I was in Saskatchewan. Okay, but who should be calling you

is now program director at 640. You with me here? Mike Bendixson? Mike Bendixson's the guy who said, hey, Tamara, I like how you sound and you belong on our airwaves. And he made that happen. And it turned out you were great. That's why you were literally on a round table yesterday. He now has the same power at the rival station. Chorus owns

640. Now I have to check the time if there still is a chorus. Okay. Oh my God. Seriously. 930. I think, I think there's still a chorus for a little longer here. So, but have you talked to Mike Bendixson? So it's funny you say that because Mike had, I think. Oh, that's my, you know what it is? That's my- And that's my calling. He's like, what, Tamara's on?

Can you ask her if we can come and host? No, believe it or not, I'm almost embarrassed to tell you. That is actually, this is how old I am. I'm almost embarrassed to tell you because you're so very young. I know how old you are. You're 50 this month and I wanted to say happy birthday. Oh, thank you.

Have you had your birthday yet? No, it's actually, we're celebrating at Great Lakes Brewery on June 27 from six to nine PM. Everybody's invited including Jim Richards. A little birthday present I can give you at some point. You're paying attention. I love that. But that sound of Neil Young singing Heart of Gold

is the sound of Mike, you have to take your blood thinner. Okay, honestly, that's what that is. So what actually, I'm gonna in a minute. It's okay, I thought you were talking to Mike Bendixson. I am. Too many Mikes. Mike Bendixson and I did have quite the chat actually at a movie theater in South Etobicoke

where he was attending the premiere of a documentary that was made about Great Lakes Brewery turning 30. Interesting. And we had quite then Jerry Agar was there. It was quite the conversation. And I feel like that was a private chat. So I won't share too many details, but man, I wish I had recorded my Mike Bendix.

But back to Mike. I really want to know. I really want to know what was in this conversation. You can chat with me. You always ask people to dish. Come on, spell the T Mike. Yeah. But I always have to tell myself, is it my story to tell?

That's the guy. Is it my story to tell? Oh yeah. Maybe not. Okay. So for this, though, you were getting into the tenants of trauma informed journalism, my friend. Okay. Well, we're going to trust me. There's a, maybe not. Okay, so for this though- You're getting into the tenets of trauma-informed journalism, my friend. Okay, well we're going to- trust me, I carved out a whole segment of this to get heavy about

the trauma beat, okay? But any opportunity for you to guest host on 640? I kind of doubt it at this point. Mike, I don't remember if I had messaged him to say, I think probably I saw that he had become the program director there on LinkedIn or something. I probably messaged him to say, congratulations. No, honestly. Somebody texted you and said,

oh, Ben Dixon's now at this recording. Nobody ever texts me anything. I am, so you're gonna be disappointed because you're gonna ask me a whole bunch of questions. What happened to this person? I don't know. Because I am so out of the like gossip. Do you think you're gonna get Lisa LaFlam questions?

Because a lot of people were like, I'm glad you didn't ask about Lisa. And I'm like, I forgot about Lisa A. B, I know nobody has anything to say about Lisa LaFlam. Like, what are you gonna say? You know, it was a, she was ousted and they, I'm sure she got severed fairly and she's gonna do something else now.

I don't have inside info on so many things. So Mike Bandista, I think that probably what happened and Mike, I apologize if I'm getting this backwards or whatever. I think I sent him a message being like, congratulations. And because he had been, I don't want to say without a job, but he'd been consulting, he'd not been anywhere for a little while. And then he wanted to get back in the game and that was six for you. I think I said congrats. And I think he said, oh, if you're ever looking for whatever there'd be a home for you or something. I don't remember. And what did you say? And then I think that I said, oh, we should chat.

And I don't think it ever happened. I think that he ghosted me. But now I just, uh, or he. Negotiate via podcast. Okay. No, I don't even know if I, this is the thing. Like these things fall into my lap sometimes. And I'm like, I never thought, I never thought I'd be a TV reporter.

I said, hell no. Will you ever catch me in front of a camera unless I'm being interviewed? I never thought I'd be in radio and then I do it and I just kind of go with the flow. I'm honestly so busy with different things that I don't have time to pursue things. Okay, so 640 kind of ghosted you right now and who knows what lined up there. But 10-10, hold on. That makes it sound scandalous. It's not, it's just a- Do you, oh no, it's not scandalous to be just ghosted. But when, so 1010's still calling you

because they had you on the round table yesterday. Is there any concern that if you appear on 640, you're off the 1010 list? No. I'm asking. I'm asking the question. I don't get paid to go on round tables or anything on 1010.

And they haven't asked me to host me. I can do whatever the hell I want. I work for myself. This is the beauty of being an entrepreneur. I can speak out against who I want. I don't care. I honestly don't give a, I know I'm allowed to say the F word on this. It still feels wrong. Okay. But it might be fun. I feel like I got Steve Paikin to say an F word and it was like exhilarating. I don't give a fuck. I'm sorry mom and dad. I know you're planning on listening to this. Oh my goodness. Okay. And that's not Don. And I'm sorry. Great grandpa Don. Great grampy gramps. Oh man. He's like 90 years old though. My goodness gracious. Okay. So just so I understand a technical thing I've always been curious about.

So when you were a guest hosting on, oh, I got paid for that for sure. Yeah. So I wasn't going to ask that because I was going to ask you, is it literally via zoom or zoom just sort of, is there another audio? There's a few platforms that they use. It sounds to me like they, the fidelity of the audio could be better than zoom for a big fucking station like 1010. Well, okay. So they have one, what's it called? I don't even remember. There's one that sometimes I connect over for the morning.

See, this is so bad. You're getting me into the technical stuff. I could probably pull up my phone and find an email, but they do have, they have tried different things. There's been like an app, like when we first went remote with the pandemic, we tried out, there was some app that we would connect over. And I think I actually used it at CTV once

to go live for something. And now there's a, you can probably throw out names and ask me, did you use this? No, no, no. I was just curious only because like if I'm like, who's a good example? Dave Van Horn. Okay. So Dave Van Horn lives in Florida, long time voice of the Montreal Expos. I just connected with him and it was fantastic.

But the path of least resistance that I was satisfied with was Zoom. So literally we met on Zoom and I'm recording me like local and I'm recording him via the internet. So I know that I'm compromising some fidelity on his audio because he's traveling through the internet. And that's a sacrifice I personally am happy to make for Toronto Mike to make it easy for Dave Van Horn to get, you know, a conversation on Toronto Mike that I wanted to have. But I just assumed that, you know, big 1010 mighty 1010 Bell Media station, that would be the fidelity would be unacceptable. They did send me a microphone and some sort of little audio board, something. I don't remember. Okay. So they can excel or a mic or something. I don't remember. So that you'll sound at least like, like, because that's how I'm set up. Okay.

Yeah, but it's not as good over Zoom. It's not. No more technical questions. I'm just curious because I myself am running a media empire trying to compete with Bell Media and Chorus. Wait, what time is it? Is there still Chorus? Okay. This is an amazing little studio. Thank you. It's not too small? No, it's intimate. It's cozy. I should be a realtor. Music to my ears. Yeah, it's the only way you say charming. It's not too small. No, it's intimate. It's cozy. I should be a realtor. Music to my ears. Yeah, it's, you know, you say charming. It's a cottage feel.

Yeah, it's charming. One last question before I play this. I'm going to play like a trailer. I'm going to call like an intro to the Trauma Beat podcast because that'll set the table a little bit. Then we'll get into it. And while that's playing, I can run up and literally take my Apexaban so that I don't have like some kind of a stroke. I'd rather you not die in my presence. Shout out to Ridley Funeral Home. If I die, drop me off at 14th and Lakeshore and Brad will take it from there.

Do you have, you'd mentioned the rush on 1010. Now when the rush launched, these two gentlemen were FOTMs. One was let go. The other went to Montreal, you know, shout out to Mad Dog. And then there was the replacement where two more FOTM. You're now an FOTM Tamara. Thank you. By the way, it took me a while to figure out what that meant. I am always feeling out of the loop on acronyms. I was like flavor of the month. I Googled it. That's what came up. And then I thought it was first on Toronto Mike and now I know it's friends.

Friend of Toronto Mike. And I like it being like a inside baseball. It's you have to, you either know or you don't. And if you don't, whatever, like you'll earn it and then you'll feel like you're in the club. Okay. So you're an FOTM. Thank you. But where I'm going is, so Scott MacArthur came over to tell his story.

He literally had this epiphany and he up and quit. I didn't hear that episode. You really do need his return. So he had his initial. I didn't know. I never knew what happened to him. Shout out to Pride Month. Okay, I'm gonna educate you real quickly here.

Then I gotta start this and get that pill. But. Get your pill. Shout out to Pride Month because Scott MacArthur's first visit was a very intimate conversation about him coming out as a proud gay man. And then his second visit was him talking

about what the fuck happened because he left the rush mysteriously sort of. and now the man lives in Nova Scotia. And what happened, and he was very honest and upfront about basically his mental health, his epiphany, why he could no longer be on the air at 10 10. But now I'm gonna ask you about somebody who I had the best chat with, I'm having a great chat right now,

but I had the best chat with Resh Miner. Aww. What chemistry, like my goodness. Oh yeah. Love this woman. Then suddenly I'm getting these reports like Rashmi's not on the air anymore. We haven't heard from her in two months. It's been five months. It's been a year. I know. Clearly Rashmi Nair is no longer with Bell Media, but I haven't heard a peep out of her and I thought she was practically a buddy. I know. I don't, I don't know what happened. Honestly, Rashmi I thought she was practically a buddy. I know. I don't, I don't know what happened. I honestly, Rushmi, if you're listening to this, please know that I've been thinking about you.

And actually when I heard, because I, I had actually, cause I do a public relations type stuff and I had actually pitched something to the rush and I had sent a message to her producer Ben Harrison. And he said, I said, I think that this would be a great conversation with Rashmi in particular. It was a really important issue that I thought she would do really well with it.

And he said, I'm sorry, Tamara, but Rashmi's no longer here. I'm like, what? He's like, just as of today, we don't know what happened. It was like the day that she left or the day after, whatever. He had, I don't know.

Anyway, I don't know what happened. So I immediately went to send her a text message. I didn't have her number in my phone. And I think I tried emailing. I think it bounced back immediately, but I've not been able to reach out to her. And I know that sounds really awful because you are an investigative investigative journalist. Surely you could find Rashmi, but I also don't want to prod,

I don't know what happened, but I was sad to see that she was gone. Well, I would just say, I always felt, I don't know what this says about me, but I always felt she was a TV star, and I was always surprised that she was on the radio. Well, I don't know what that means at all. Radio is a lot of fun.

Radio is a lot of fun. But I just felt like she was a TV person, and now you're on the radio, and then I wondered if TV was in her future, but now we realize whatever's in her future is not with Bell Media and I have no more insight than you do. I don't know, but it honestly saddens me and if she is listening to this, Rashmi, love you. Don't know what happened.

Miss hearing you on the radio. Okay. She's a wonderful woman. And Rashmi, what's at me, will you? I want to get you back on Toronto Mic and talk about all this. Okay. So I'm going to set the table by playing a introduction to the Trauma Beat. This is literally your podcast. And then this will kind of start us off.

Then I'll ask a few annoying questions about your career, like how you didn't want to be on TV. How did you end up at CTV Toronto? And why did you leave CTV Toronto? And then we're going to talk about the Trauma Beat. We're going to cover a lot of ground, but this will give me an excuse to go upstairs and get my pill. So stay alive.

I think this is the first time in the history of Toronto Mike that I literally had to like, you know, leave the studio to take my pill. Cause you know why? You know why? When I have to go pee in like 45 minutes from now. Would you want to go pee now? Cause you've heard this intro. Yeah, I've heard it a couple of times.

Cause now's a good time. Cause this intro is going to be a good two minutes here. But I was going to say, I want you, the reason this has never happened before is because I actually, I think you asked for 9 a.m. Am I right? Or did I ask for? I don't remember. I think you did.

And I was late. Only by five minutes. Seven minutes. Mike, you're being, you're being kind. I'm kind of first timers. If you're late again, you're out of here. I was so embarrassed and ashamed. Did you know, because I'm about to press play on this, but did you know you're leaving here

with Fresh Craft Beer from Great Lakes Brewery? Did I make that clear? No. Okay. So there's beer for you. Thank you. And I know you're not in town on June 27th and I teased it by saying we're celebrating my 50th at June 27th. That's TMLX15 at Great Lakes Brewery. Palma Pasta is going to feed everybody. That is amazing. How many people are you expecting?

Is it going to be like one frozen lasagna that you're throwing in the oven? They're going to feed my family. They send food for hundreds. It's unbelievable. And it's all, they have a buffet style. That is amazing. Do they actually pay you for their sponsorship

or do they just give you food? No, both. It's amazing. And how big is your deep freeze? And do they just give you food? No, both. It's amazing. And how big is your deep freeze? And do they just drop it off once a week? No. I always wondered. So yeah, I'm on my deep.

I don't have a deep freeze. So that's the problem. I can only fit in my freezer four at a time. So literally I have to be really pretty inside. It's upstairs. It's the bottom of my. It's your main freezer. I don't have a second freezer.

Your main home freezer is where you keep all these frozen lasagna for people. All these is for. So I have to plan out. So basically I basically sent a note to the owner, Anthony, and I'm like, I need four meat lasagna is for Monday morning. And he's like, you got it. And then it's so the delivery comes approximately once every, I don't know, 10 days or something.

It depends how many people come over. Sometimes for example, sometimes I'm having a band over and there's like three guys. I'm like, I need three lasagnas. So sometimes it's multiple orders a week, but this is, I'm telling you Tamara, and you can relate to this. I book the guest, I do the research, I record,

I do the technical part. I have to do the accounts receivable, the accounts payable, the sales, and I have to manage the lasagnas and the beer. I do everything, yeah. I can't believe, is this a- Well, it's in my freezer. So when you leave- I'm like, this is a-

Okay, Tamara, that is an empty box for like, so you know what's coming. And then when you- It's a nice box. When you, yeah, the box itself is probably five bucks. When you leave, it'll be a full of a large meat lasagna in palmapasta.com. That's where you go for delicious, authentic Italian food. Quickly here here before I press play, I have a book for you on the history of Toronto Maple Leafs

baseball. This is awesome. They play their home games at Christie Pitts here in Toronto, the city you left for Regina. And I'm going to be there July 7th. You say it like a Saskatchewanian. You don't say Toronto. I've been told that. Like a Tronian. I don't like it when we judge people for how they say the name Toronto. Well I judge you for how you say Saskatchewan because it's Saskatchewan. I've heard you on the show saying Saskatchewan. How do you say it? You put the emphasis on the wrong syllable. It's Saskatchewan. It's like you're saying like Saskatchewan. Like Saskatchewan Roughriders win. My first wife was from Saskatoon. Oh so you're saying it wrong on purpose. No. Is this a bitterness thing?

Is this like part of the divorce? You're like, you got this, but I get to say Saskatchewan for the rest of my life. No, I'm trying to keep my brand of guy who mispronounces half the words. I said Tamara Ray, but I did a lot of homework on that one here. So I'm there July 7th, but there's a great Father's Day game people should come out to. I went to the game last Sunday and it was amazing, but high caliber baseball in a great environment and no ticket required. You just show up and then you can now drink.

This is how civilized we are Tamara. You can drink a beer on the hill at Christie Pitts watching this baseball and the cops can't do anything to you. Like it's illegal. Do you think they'd really care about that sort of thing though? We don't have to find out. Like I always, I'm king of drinking beers in parks.

I've been doing it forever. But I also am aware that it gives a cop a reason to bug you. Like I don't I think we can remove that. Yes. Also, that's the other thing, too. I'm well aware of my entitlement as a blue eyed white man. So I always wonder like, oh, yeah, no one's bugging me. So nobody's bugging anybody. And then it's like, wait a minute here.

Like not everybody looks like me. Maybe this it's like, wait a minute here. Like not everybody, it looks like me. Maybe this is an excuse to harass people of color. I don't want that to even exist. So let's make it legal and civilized. Anyway, right now it is. Yes, let's all be civilized. Let's be civilized. Yeah, and let's, those who can't be responsible drinkers

in a park, let's deal with them for violating the law and not police everybody like a nanny state and just say like, no, but none of you can drink a beer in a park because some guy had one too many and then I don't know, took a pee at the tree or something. Isn't it crazy though, how long this city has talked about freaking drinking in park, in the park.

Was it John Tory that wanted to bring it in? Like that was one of his things. I don't know. It's like honestly as somebody as a weekly roundtable pundit, I can't believe how many times we talked about drinking in parks. Are you friends of John Tory? Former 10-10 host? I know and I'm not saying that in a way that no I don't like that guy. Is he the future host of the rush? Not that I'm aware. I hope not. No talks in the hallways yesterday about John Tory coming in. I didn't see any John Tory yesterday. There was no John Tory to be seen.

But I actually enjoyed when John Tory was a co-host of The Rush. Remember like way back before when he was setting up his mayoralty bid? 100%. I actually enjoyed. But no, not that I'm aware of. But John Tory, yeah, I've talked to him on the radio many times. Do you know that affair he had, we'll call it that, may not have been sexual. Do you know this?

I have on this program once a quarter, Edward Keenan from the Toronto Star. Also a one-time host at 1010, as I recall, but now I think he does 640 stuff. Was he? Yeah, I think he had a weekend show on 1010. I don't remember. I believe so. I believe so. Anyway, now he's on 640 stuff. Yeah, I think he had a weekend show on 1010. Like I believe so. I believe so.

Anyway, now he's on 640 at times, but bottom line is we have these chats and we went great depth into this and there's no evidence of any, it's an inappropriate relationship. Is it a matter if it's sexual? No, but it's funny how, cause it is inappropriate to have that kind of relationship

with a city staffer. Like I don't care about his marriage to be honest, that's between him and his wife or whatever. But the city, there with a city staffer. Like, forget, I don't care about his marriage, to be honest. That's between him and his wife or whatever. But the city, there was inappropriate city staffer optics. And then you find out maybe they were traveling on the city's dime. And there's a bunch of stuff that's, to have that relationship with your staffer

is inappropriate when you're mayor of the city. But it is interesting, we all just assumed that this was a sexual relationship, but- Did we? Cause I was trying not to picture that. I think the words I heard, the four words I heard were John Tory sex scandal. And none of those words seemed to belong together, but he's known as, he was known as no story Tory. I remember, uh, Betsy Powell, who I worked with at the star. And then many years, like just in the

field, she was a court crime reporter, then court reporter, and then she went to City Hall right and then she came back to the courts I'm like Betsy what are you doing here she's like no story tory I'm back on courts yeah it's too boring after Rob Ford it was just one beer and he's out yeah absolutely yeah story tory so here is in the washrooms yeah I'm gonna go I'm gonna go I'm gonna take advantage of this let's listen to a couple of minutes a great introduction to the trauma beat podcast and then we'll get Back to those subjects of the matter here. We go get medicated For nearly 15 years, okay

So why don't we start from the very beginning on a near daily basis? Come here, Terry the Toronto Sun. How are you? I was immersed in the business of bad news It ended up being a short story because he didn't end up dying. Homicides, traffic fatalities. What would you like people to know, I guess, about your son? Sexual violence, mass violence. What was it about him that made you so afraid of him? As a crime reporter in one of North America's largest markets...

What do you want me to call you because I'm going to change your name? Do you have any preference? If it was a story that could make you cry, I probably covered it. From newspapers to television, I thought I was only doing good. I've had people that have contacted me saying, I want to help these victims. But my research examining the impact of the media on trauma survivors Do you have any pictures of your son that we might be able to? and the impact of trauma on members of the media We had a man walk up to our truck saying he hasn't been able to get a hold of his wife

has shown me how wrong I was. You said you were robbed at gunpoint at the Weston Prince, right? showing body bags and graphic video. Reaching out to people just hours after they'd been hit by a tsunami of grief. Asking a trauma survivor to walk me through horrific, deeply personal details without really knowing how to ask those questions. How much did they steal from you? What time was that at? Do you remember when this happened? Without really understanding the impact that not knowing could have. Did he hang out with any friends that would get into that kind of trouble, that carry guns around?

And without understanding that in order to take care of myself over all those years, I had to take care of the people I was reporting on. Take down your phone number just in case I'm listening back and I want to clarify anything. I'm now on a mission to change the way these stories are collected and told. How do we save them before they even get lured into this game? The conversations in this podcast with people who have lived it, who are living it, who get it, are part of that mission. I'm Tamara Cherry.

I'm Tamara Cherry. I'm Tamara Cherry. Thank you so much for talking to me. I really appreciate it. I know it's a really hard time. And this is the Trauma Beat. Okay. That's how I learned to say Tamara.

By listening to you. Jarring to listen to that. I haven't listened to that trailer in a long time. So that's your podcast, right? Yeah, that was, yeah, before I put out the first season last year. Okay. It's weird to hear those voice recordings though of myself,

even though I've listened to it a million times before, it's been a while. And you're using a shadow to Siobhan Morris, you're using the reporter voice. This is, and I learned what the reporter voice is, it just means you're enunciating. Like I always felt like when people talk to me normally, they sounded different than they did when they were learned what the reporter voice is. It just means you're enunciating. Like I always felt like people talk to me. Normally they sounded different than they did

when they were doing like a reporter voice. Are you talking about right now I'm using the reporter voice? No, in that trailer I hear some of the, like when we hear clips of you reporting. Am I really? Oh, when I'm, okay, cause I didn't ever think I was one of the reporter voices. If you look over here, I just thought it was just,

Ken Shaw. I'm Ken Shaw. No, but I also don't want to use the podcaster voice. You know how like, like, like, like, um, like serial NPR. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. The, the serial voice. Yeah. You know, I'm wondering, like, what are you? Come on, hippie. I agree if you 100 percent just be yourself, right?

Like, can you imagine if I had another voice, you know, I'd be using it. Yeah. Like, you know, he's two faced. and if I had another face I'd use that one. All right so that's your podcast. That said I will say when you hear those like clips of me from my recorded interviews that's like early in my career and something I just noticed listening back is my voice was higher then and my voice is lower now. I've not been taking testosterone. But that happens I think as you uh age. I know but been taking testosterone. But that happens, I think, as you age. No, but maybe it's that, but I also think it's probably because people told me to lower my voice, because people prefer men's voices on television, because men are to be trusted more and they're better journalists.

Well, that's unfair, because now I have to sound like a man. Yeah, I think you should start trying. Start smoking. Come on. Alright, so let me get some 101 here. Okay, so you mentioned you came to Toronto for a gig at the Toronto Star. Okay, what were you doing at the Star? I started in the radio room.

I had applied for one of their general assignment reporting internships, and I did the interview and everything. I had applied all over the place, and I got an interview for the Toronto Star GA internship and actually, actually I don't want to tell this story, but I- Oh, that's a good one right there. No, okay, I will. I just, I don't like using identifying information. I should have told you this before, like when it comes to certain homicides and everything like that.

But I was, I'm not going to ask you any identifying information. No, I was going to tell you though, like if people, if people put two and two together on the timeline here, they'd know what case I'm talking about. But when I was interviewed for the Toronto Star, it was beginning of January 2005 and I had just gone on the birthright trip to Israel because my dad is Jewish, so I got to take the free trip to Israel. And I had just gotten back and I'd been totally unplugged from the news for two weeks and there had been a very high-profile homicide on Boxing Day 2005 and that was the first question that they asked me, oh what do you think of our coverage of this? I'm like honestly I just got off a plane I've no idea what's

been going on in the world so I didn't get that but they called me back like a month or so later they're like we don't have a spot for you in the GA but we have a spot in the radio room if you'd be interested in that, I'm like, watch the radio room. So the radio room basically is like, they referred to it, at least when I was there as the box. It was like this windowless room in the middle of the newsroom. From what I understand now, they might have windows. Well, they're no longer at one Yonge street. First, I know. I, so sad for me when I walk walk past one young and I see like half of the building, the one side of the building has Toronto Star still on it.

The other one is like, you can just see the markings left behind, the ghost. It is sad, right? It is sad. Anyway, so I start in the radio room, which is basically like, it's a around the clock job where they have like an 8 a.m. to 4 p.m., 4 p.m. to midnight, midnight to 8 a.m. shift.

And you are just doing all of your reporting from inside the box and you're listening to police fire ambulance scanners you are listening to you're watching CP 24 on TV listening to 680 news you are calling the staff sergeants and the fire captains and calling through buildings and doing all of the reporting on breaking news from inside and you're writing obituaries and doing other things, writing for the paper and the web. So that's where I started at the Toronto Star, and then I eventually was let out of the box.

And the following summer, I was gonna be a GA reporter, and then one of their crime reporters went on. What does GA stand for? General assignment. Look at me throwing out an acronym that you don't know. Well, I'm never, you know, unlike you, I've never worked for a mainstream media. I know, but you talk to media people like all the time. But GA, you know, I think about old exhibition stadium and when I got the $2 seat at Dominion and I got to sit in general

admission. Okay. It's like, yeah, FOTM flavor of the month. Flavor of the month. Okay. All right. Well, you're more than that. Okay. So you're, but you end up at the Sun, right? So, so what? So I was on like four back-to-back contracts at the Star. It literally got to the point, like I said, so I was the four month internship and then eight months and then summer.

So another four months, and then they extended it by a month. I was actually, so interesting thing. I don't remember, I don't think I talked about this in the book, but it was basically down to like, cause I applied for like the year long internship then at the star, which is very prestigious. Right. And it, it, from what I understood at the time, it was basically down to like me or Robin Doolittle for this like one spot. And we're like two white women. They can't have like more than

one white woman who's whatever that sounds awful. No, but it was like true. We knew it was gonna be one or the other cause we both kind of checked all the same boxes. And I remember there was like a camp in the newsroom that was like really behind me. And these are like some of the old school reporters and they really loved me because I was like, yeah, gruff and all that stuff.

And then obviously there would have been people behind Robin because she was a pit bull and- And a hell of a figure skater. Yes, yeah. Has she been on here? She talked about it? You know what, no, actually. I don't know.

I would love to have her on, but I have not yet. She's got some stories to tell, but she just puts them in books and she sells them well. Well, I think she does guard her stories. Like I feel like she's, but maybe one day she will. I did too. I never thought that I would speak publicly about like I'm a very private person which people are surprised to hear but I actually am anyway so I remember getting the call I was at a Blue Jays game and I had been waiting

for this call am I gonna get this year thing am I gonna get this year thing and and I got the call and I don't remember who it was, probably the city editor at the time and like Tamara you didn't get it or whatever it was. And I remember my heart just sinking, right, but then they extended me for one more month. So fourth contract and then from what I understood the union basically told them you got to either fire her or hire her. We can't just, this is such precarious work, this is ridiculous. So that's when I went to the Sun. I got a full-time job at the Sun. Okay, you got a full-time job at the Sun. What were you doing at the Toronto Sun? So at the Sun I was initially hired as a GA. What does it mean? It means general assignment. Yeah

So that was in like I think I started with them in November 2007 and Within a couple months of me arriving there, Jonathan Jenkins, he was one of their three crime reporters at the time. He went to work at Queen's Park. So a spot opened up on the crime desk and I said, I want to pick me, pick me. And they interviewed me for it. It was like me, like three people interviewing me. And it was so funny because it was like so formal. And I'm saying why I should be one of the three crime reporters and this is why blah blah blah and I remember like Kevin Hahn who was the city editor at the time him just like shuffling his papers yeah you got it like what he's like yeah you got it wow like it was a very like prestigious post there because when you're a Toronto Sun crime reporter you get uh I don't remember if I had a car no then you get

a vehicle out you get a gas, which was like very sought after. You get, you just, you have a scanner in your car and Kevin Han used to like sleep with the scanner next to his bed and I didn't do that, but it was. Okay, but crime, now that you're on the Sun, Toronto Sun crime desk, are you aware that, oh, you're going to experience trauma, other people's trauma?

Like, do you have any idea? Like, oh, this isn't like, oh, the firefighters rescued this dog out of a tree. What a nice moment for little Molly. It got her dog back or whatever. I was gonna, is Molly the name of the dog or the owner of the dog? It's the drug that the owner of the dog took.

Yeah. And then put the dog in the tree. I just heard like a anecdote about the chemist who invented Molly, but I digress. Okay, so. What's the anecdote? I can't remember the anecdote now, except that he was working on-

So you have short term memory issues. You just heard it. No, I did just hear it on a bike ride recently. And I feel the anecdote had to do with the fact that he was working on pesticides. Like he was working on pesticides and then he accidentally invented Ingested what became no one is Molly. Okay

MDNA, I think MDMA right, you know your stuff because you're the reporter here. Okay now Suncrime desk You're doing that until like do you leave the Suncrime desk for CTV news? Yes, I felt so guilty so because what made you you told me earlier in this conversation that you never thought of yourself on television. Well, did you know CTV news is like the most watched Toronto? I know. Wasn't interested. So this is like I I when I was in journalism school, I took the absolute bare minimum broadcast courses, whatever I had to do to graduate. So I'm like, I'm never going to be on TV, not interested. I'm a writer. That's what I wanted to do.

But the Toronto Sun, as you might've heard, the media industry experiences some layoffs. So the Toronto Sun, I always felt like it was like a game of Jenga. I've said this many times over the years, where it's like, you never know what block they're going to remove when the whole thing comes crumbling down.

It is actually miraculous that that that paper still exists. It is I know you've had some of the recent departures on like Rita DeMontes and Jane Stevenson and Liz Rahn. Right. And it's how who's writing this paper. And I understand how the whole post media chain works. But when I was at the Toronto Sun, it was so miserable by the time I left that I would pull into the parking lot and I would feel my anxiety rising and I just had to steal myself to walk inside and I would get to the border of the newsroom and Pam Davies who is their artist and I knew her she was a good friend of mine because she was also their sketch artist in court she was like on the the the outer most perimeter of the

newsroom and I'd stop and I'd chat with her and then I would just be walking into the newsroom and thinking what shit are they going to throw at me today? Because I wanted to go there and do good journalism and there'd be so many times that I'd walk in I'd be like I've got a great scoop on this they'd be like okay well you're one of two reporters working today so we actually need you to write half the paper so no time for real interviews. And you know you dropped those names the trifecta women. And I think Jane is still there. Like I feel like Jane Stevenson still writes for the Sun. Oh, is she? Yeah, then she's like basically on her own.

I think she is the entertainment section now, actually. Oh, she does, she does, she does everything. Right. So anyway, so I... Were you friendly with the sports people? Because most of my Toronto Sun guests happen to be the sports people. I didn't know, I didn't have any, I don't text with them or anything about you.

You can't take a text right now from Steve Simmons. I was always friendly with everybody though. The Toronto Sun newsroom was a fantastic place, just again, like a family, but the shit falls down in these organizations. And when you're only given this many resources, then it's like, that said, what I will say about the sun is I got to do amazing work there on human trafficking because I started reporting on human trafficking.

Toronto police, when they laid their first ever human trafficking charge in January 2008, I happened to be working that weekend when the news release came over the fax machine and I got onto that and I grabbed onto it and I reported on it for years. And the Toronto Sun, because we were so short staffed, Dave Ellis, rest in peace. And Jonathan Jenkins, rest in peace. But Dave Ellis. We say shout out to Ridley Funeral Home. There you go. There you go.

But Dave Ellis would walk over to me on a Wednesday, come to the cock test. Hey, Tamara, you have anything spread that we can do for the weekend? My Dave, a spread. I need time to do this. He's like, we, we're looking for a two page spread for the weekend. I'm like, and I'm writing tomorrow's paper and the next day and the next day. So as a result, I was able to basically write whatever the hell I wanted. So I did a lot of work on human trafficking and they would just be like, have

as much space as you want. And it was amazing. I would have all these two page spreads, but by the time I left, it was just so, the morale was so low because we had no resources. And as you may or may not have read in my book, maybe you're setting up a story you already know, I was covering a homicide, a very high profile homicide in the GTA at the time. And I had my little tiny, because at that point the Toronto Sun had us like shooting video and doing like little stand-ups. We had one of those like giant lav mics that we would like attach to ourselves and these tiny little cameras.

We all remember the pivot to video. Yeah, so it was painful. And I remember standing on the side of this dirt road and there were a body had been discovered of presumably this victim in this high profile case we'd all been covering. Standing on the side of this dirt rural road just outside of Toronto. And I was chatting with Austin Delaney and he said, you know, Jim Junken just announced his retirement. Like what?

You know, JJ, which I knew well from working the crime bead, loved working with the guy. He said, we're going to need, we need another crime party. Come work with us. Come work for us. I'm like, no, Austin, you'll never catch me dead in front of a camera. He's like, you're already doing it. And he gestured to my tiny little tripod

and tiny little camera. He's like, come do it right. And this light bulb went off my head, but I was still so hesitant that I, as somebody with undiagnosed ADHD, this is something I probably would have usually started just, you know, I held onto that for two weeks. I did not say anything to anybody about it.

I just sat with it. And then I reached out and I talked to my husband and my sister and I reached out to us and I said, okay, make the intro. And then like the following week, I think I was having coffee with Paul Rogers and Steve Kassar who were like running the station at the time. And then it was basically just, they had to go through the process. And then that December I was home for Christmas in Regina and I got the call and because at that point I was, I was considering either leaving journalism altogether or moving to Calgary because I had done, I'd worked at the Calgary Herald briefly years earlier and

they had, you know, the, one of the big wigs there had kept in touch with me and always said, we have a job for you back here if you ever want to come back. Um, or just, yeah, I didn't know what I was going to do. And so I said, okay, I'm just going to take this leap of faith. What do I have to lose? And I ended up loving it. I loved being, I loved writing for TV. Well, okay. Shout out to FOTM Austin Delaney. Love him. Recently made his Toronto mic debut and it's just, I recommend it to everybody. So you did listen to Austin Delaney on Toronto mic. He was great and good on him. He was a hundred

percent right. The pivot to video, you were already doing it. Yes, he was a radio guy. So come on over and do it right. So now you're comfortable with being on television. Oh, I wouldn't say I was comfortable with being on television. You kidding me? Well, baptism by fire here.

It was literally, it was literally baptism by fire. And I never actually ever got real training for television. I still don't know what some of the TV speak means. People are like, sot those, vo sots. I'm like, what do you want me to do? Am I adding something? I know, right? Okay. How dare you?

What a hypocrite we have here. I thought I was judging you silently. I didn't know that that came out. You forgot I was recording. Okay. So now we have you at CTV news. Last question about Toronto Sun before we leave the Toronto Sun behind is, what kind of guy is Joe Warmington?

God. That's not a question I was expecting. Joe Warmington, so working with Joe, and I think Joe, if he's listening to this, he's got- He listens, I get notes from Joe, Joe listens. Joe is always listening. I've invited him on by the way. It's like same as, he won't come on? He politely declined the invitation to come on him.

So Joe, the annoying thing about Joe and Joe, you got to admit this is true. He would always, I'd be sitting in the cop desk at the Toronto Sun and he'd come in, hey, Cherry, what are you working on today? Like Joe, you're not stealing my story. Because I'd be working on something, but then if Joe wants to do it,

well then Joe would get it, cause he's the night scrawler and he's the columnist and everything. Be like Joe, back off. You're not taking this. No, just, you know, what are you, what are you doing? You know, so I'm going to leave it at that for Joe. I don't agree with some of the stuff that he says. He does some good work, but some of the stuff I don't agree with that he writes about. Okay. I think you were diplomatic there. Okay. So now you're at CTV news. Now you're going

to be covering, like, you know, and I notice I have a question actually, just because you've made a decision for a couple of high profile cases, not to name anyone involved in the case. But these both instances are very high profile cases where we all know the names of the victims in these cases. So I'm just curious. You know why I don't name them. Well, that's why this is where you're going to explain to us all like why you're not naming and I won't say it because I'm trying to respect you but I'm saying these names but when you talk about the for example the Boxing Day murder by the Eden Center and you don't name anybody I'm curious why. Okay so two

reasons well probably multiple reasons but the two that come to my mind first. First because I don't want to surprise that family they're not expecting their case to be suddenly back in the media. And if one of them is listening to this and then suddenly I know how that can activate trauma responses and I know how lots of trauma survivors can feel like they're basically being talked about behind their back where their stories are being discussed. And it is their experience, their story. And so many times we have total control over these stories and it's their experiences. So there's that. But then I will also point out that the reason I'm in Toronto this time was actually to spend time with a homicide survivor whose son, and this is something I discussed briefly in my book, people wouldn't necessarily know

it, although she was episode one of season two of the trauma beat. This is a woman who her son was a young black man who was murdered in What I would say is like a high crime area in Lawrence Heights where I had covered many other homicides before and he was murdered And I didn't know What happened to him or his name or anything until about 11 months after the fact, when then Staff Inspector Greg McLean of the Homicide Squad gathered us all in Toronto Police Headquarters, media gallery, to have this big, flashy news conference and to announce that her son, Marvin Engelbrecht, and I'm comfortable naming him because I've talked to her family and his family about

this and they're happy for me to speak his name as much as I want. Marvin Engelbrecht had been murdered in a quote random act of violence, along with a number of other people who had been shot in these quote random acts of violence. And I remember thinking like I, it's one of those flash ball memories, Mike, where I'm sitting on the carpeted floor of Toronto police headquarters, media gallery, typing into my iPad and shaking my head and being like Marvin Engelbrecht how do I not know this name this guy was shot at random he had been out walking his dog and the allegations were that these this car pulled up and these guys got out of the car and chased him up a driveway and murdered him and apparently

at random and so I remember emailing Christine Eakins who is the CTV librarian at the time and asking her to tell me what do we, what, what sort of viz do we have visuals video on the Marvin Engelbrecht murder. And she wrote back, no viz or she, or I called her and she told me no viz. Cause that's why I typed in my notes at the time. And I held onto that like shame for years of how did I not know who he was? But the other victim you're referring to to everybody knows it's a household name and that is actually something we talk

about it in that podcast episode with Simone Engelbrecht without naming that other victim that at one point she went to like a community meeting and all of these in Lawrence Heights and all these politicians and everything has shown up and she's like everybody knows the name of such and such right nobody knows my son's name why isn't anybody talking about this and that's a problem in this city so there's certain cases we talk about and there's so many other survivors out there like impossible my case reading between the lines possibly this was a young white person who was murdered versus a young black yeah in a in a not a place where you would expect

gun violence but it's like there's, so there's this one, there's this nonprofit that I work with in Philadelphia called the Philadelphia center for gun violence reporting. And they're trying to change the way that gun violence is reported. They want it reported through a public health lens versus the lens that it currently is. And I would say that we were that the lens that we use up here in Canada too, where we present gun violence in certain neighborhoods as something that is inevitable rather than what it actually is, which is preventable. We don't talk about solutions.

We don't talk about prevention. It's just like, you know, unfortunately, if you live in these neighborhoods, this is something you are going to experience. And so people there grow up thinking, well, I'm going to just grow up hearing gunshots at nighttime. I'm going to grow up. No, you at nighttime. I'm going to grow up. No, you know, I'm not going to be able to let my kids out on a sunny day cause I don't want

them to be hit by a bullet. And I've heard this from people in many neighborhoods in the city over the years and it's awful, but actually gun violence isn't inevitable. It's preventable. And I think if we started reporting on it in a different way, then maybe that could actually impact it. But where that young white girl was murdered and I don't, this is the thing, I don't want to, I don't want to cause her family further harm by saying that she shouldn't have gotten the attention that she did. Because that was, I don't want to

take away from their trauma, their very real trauma. But there are families who are suffering all over the city. And unfortunately, we don't recognize the pain of them in the same way because their child was black or murdered in a neighborhood where many people are murdered. And whether it was a random act of violence with like Marvin Engelbrecht or a targeted shooting like some other homicides I talk about in my book, it doesn't matter.

It's the same pain that is left behind with these families. And can I tell you something actually interesting that I learned from a homicide investigator? I was meeting with a homicide investigator yesterday, no the day before yesterday when I after I flew in and this investigator told me that in I don't know if it's Toronto or in Ontario, homicide victims their families are entitled to $5,000 to help cover funeral costs unless they were involved in a criminal activity when they were murdered. So for example, if there is a young man who that it seems that he was dealing drugs when

he was murdered, was drug deal gone wrong? Sorry family, from this impoverished neighborhood, you don't get your $5,000. But if we think that he was an innocent victim, quote unquote, here's your $5,000. How awful is that? And so homicide investigators, they try to find a way to word it in a way, because lots of times you don't know in the initial stages of an investigation, unless there's a gun found on the victim. But it's the same pain that's left behind. But as a society, we're giving $5,000 to, as long as you raised a law buying son and we're not giving $5,000 to that single mother who is working three minimum wage jobs and so didn't know who her son was hanging out with.

And he ended up running with gangs and getting shot. She needs to figure out another way. And she's the one that gets the, the graves. I have seen many of these with no tombstone because she can't afford it. Okay, well said. Okay, now we're cooking here. Now I've noticed-

You got me all worked up. I was looking forward to talking about light things. No, well, we were eventually gonna get to the T word trauma and here we are now. Okay, so you're at CTV News and as a member of CTV News, you're covering like police and crime beat. I just had on, I say just, and it's probably last summer now that I think about it, but Steve Ryan came over.

Doesn't live too far from here. And Steve Ryan, we were talking about what he's seen, because he was a homicide detective with TPS before he moved over to the media side. And we talked about what he's seen and how does he deal with it, right? And it's we talked about, you know, what he's seen and how does he deal with it, right? And it's like, yeah, he listens, he works out and listens to air supply. Like this is sort of his coping mechanism or whatever. But that man has seen some shit.

But you covering for 15, I don't know how many years over deck. Yeah, almost 15 years. You're a crime reporter in this, in the big smoke, Canada's biggest city here. Toronto. Toronto. I'm going to learn how to say that at some point. Wendy Gillis actually, the primer reporter for Toronto Star. She's a good friend of mine. She's from Saskatchewan, shout out! From Saskatoon, Wendy Gillis, love her.

I think her Twitter bio is something like a Saskatchewanian who knows how to say Toronto, T apostrophe R-A-N-N-A. Toronto rhymes with trauma. I figured it out. Toronto. Toronto. Toronto rhymes with trauma. I figured it out. Toronto. Trauma. Toronto, Toronto, Toronto. So one day, but, and I was born in Parkdale.

You can check the records. There you go. So I, you've seen some shit. So I kind of want to get you going again about how trauma and the media intersect. And this kind of ties to your book, The Trauma Beat. Just a little bit. A case for rethinking the business of, because I got to read everything after the colon,

The Trauma Beat. A case for rethinking the business of bad news. So, oh gosh, so maybe share a little bit. Do you should we maybe get this out of the way? I feel like at some point I'm going to need like, why did you leave CTV News Toronto and then end up back in Regina? So maybe we get you out of CTV News and then we talk about your crime reporting and as a whole here. But what caused you to leave CTV News Toronto and in fact also leave the city

we're talking in right now, Toronto? Toronto, okay so I did not leave CTV because I was burnt out or traumatized or anything like that. That I'll say number one. So this is a bit of a convoluted story. So bear with me here. Number one reason I left, I wanted to be home for dinner with my kids. As a crime- How many kids do you have? Three.

Okay, that's a lot of kids. I know. I was going to say that's something we have in common. We both have millions of children. Three. That's something we have in common. We both have millions of children. That's at least how it felt. So three children and like, are you comfortable giving ages of these children? Yep, I never talk about their names on air or anything like that, but they're almost six, almost eight and almost 10. Okay, so I have an eight and a 10.

I know. So we do have a lot in common. So cute. I love the ages. It's just the best. So I wanted to be home for dinner with my kids. And I knew that as they got older, like I'm never going to be able to go to the soccer games, I'm never going to be able to do this. And as the crime reporter, they always at CTV, they always wanted you live at six. And I was often, you know, live at six. And the reason we lived out in Ajax by the time my after my first was born, we moved out to Ajax because I found a place. I'm like, where do I never report as a crime reporter? And I found this neighborhood in Ajax and I called the

local police station. I asked all these questions and we live there. But as a result, it often took so we were looking for a low crime neighborhood. Exactly. So you're talking to cops to find a low crime neighbor. Yeah. And I'm thinking, where do I not go? Where do I not report as a crime reporter? So, um, lots of CTV folks live out in Durham region, but that's cause CTV is in aging court and anyway, yeah, but I was never anyway, I, so it often, I was often driving home and I usually wouldn't get home until like seven 30, even eight o'clock at night.

And my husband would be like trying to keep our kids like, for example, after I went back after my first mat leave, trying to keep them awake so I could see him. And there were so many times I was on the 401 and just had tears coming down my cheeks, watching the clock, knowing he's gonna be going to sleep. I'm missing dinner, I'm missing that, you know? I loved my job though, but I loved my family more. And I don't really like to say that

because it makes it sound like people that stay in TV don't love their families, that's not it. But for me, I needed, I wanted to be there. So that was number one. So then I started thinking about, okay, well, what would I do next? And I, you know, the obvious answer to that for many journalists, excuse me, I'm taking off this coat. I'm Tamara's getting serious. I'm pulling up my sleeves. You got a license for those guns. I'm getting, I'm pulling up my sleeves. You got a license for those guns? What's going on Karen? I was fishing for that.

Anyway, so I... Shout out to Dana Levinson. Yeah, oh my God, the triceps on that woman and the biceps. But she puts in the work. Oh, she does, but it's crazy. Like Dana, are you just eating like plain chicken breasts all the time? But you know, it's interesting to make me talk about Dana

because I'm very close to Dana, but there's also- Yeah But you know what's interesting, they make me talk about Dana, because I'm very close to Dana, but there is also, Yeah, you produce your podcast. Yeah, and we're good friends, and her husband has the same birthday as me. But she, this comes from a trauma as well, like her marriage ends,

and from this experience and this trauma, she basically channels it into getting strong, so nobody can hurt her again. And that's when the Dana is born, which is- Did she talk about that on the podcast? She talks about this. She's talked about it on the DM. Yeah, I've talked to her about it too.

It is amazing. That woman is ripped and I love to see a strong woman. I love to see that definition in the arms. And I saw her, and again, we're gonna get right back to this very serious topic, but you mentioned the Edmonton Oilers when you arrived and it was not recorded, but my wife is from Edmonton and we were watching game four last night.

During the telecast, Dana's on my TV because she does these Capital Direct ads. And I see, so I see, oh, there's Dana. You got it, there you go, there's the jingle. I'm more of a pizza Nova jingle man myself. Shout out to FOTM Elfie Zappa Costa. But I'm seeing Dana and just to put a bow on the Edmonton Oilers thing, they're at home

and you're not down in a series till you lose at home, but they are down to nothing and they're at home and everyone's excited. Monica and other Edmontonians and people who like the Oilers are very excited. My brother. But we kind of tuned out at four one. So at four one, we just said, oh, like,

Too depressing. We went on with our lives. And then we, I wake up and I saw with five minutes left, that game is four to three. Like Edmonton scores two goals in the third period. Exciting game. And for five minutes to tie that up and kind of, you know, it's better to kind of find, you know,

but that was a comeback didn't culminate and now put a fork in that team. They're done. Were you, and now put a fork in that team. They're done. Were you, but you were rooting for the Oilers? I have to. My brother's like the biggest, my brother is just always been the biggest Oilers fan. And fun fact, actually, my cousin played for the Toronto Maple Leafs. Luke, Luke Shen and Braden Shen are my cousins.

Well, that's more than a fun fact. That's a fucking great fact. Yeah, but I was a beloved. I know he was when he first came here. He had a second tour of duty. And then he came back, I know, amazing. As the old geezer. Everyone loved Luke.

And his brother, the story, the famous story at the time was that, I think it was Brian Burke, I think it was. But basically the intent was to draft Braden Shen. And I think the flyers are somebody kind of screwed over Ryan Burke, which people like to do for some good reasons, but basically the intent was to have Luke and Brayden sort of like how he drafted the twins, the Seddon twins, Seddon? Seddon? Seddon? I think

it's Seddon. The Seddon twins in Vancouver. The idea was to have Brayden and Luke on the astronomy. I didn't know that. See, I'm not in the loop on anything, even in my family. I just love the family. Shout out to the Shens. But anyway, can I just say one other thing about a jingle? One last thing about the jingle. Cause you said, da da da da da, dot C-A. I know what you're saying, right? You can say, Fabric land, fabric land. The one that I always think about in Regina. So in Saskatchewan, I don't think we have this

restaurant here, but there's Brown's, Brown's Social House, a great restaurant in Regina. Lots of gluten-free options there from all you celiacs out there. It's worth the drive. Yes. But whenever I go back to Regina or my family would be talking about, oh, we're going to Brown's, I'd say, Brown's, a short man's, we're all the fashion because it fits. And every time we go to Brown's, which we do often, I'm like, because it fits and nobody in Regina gets the reference. But I'm not even going to tell you that I actually don't know that reference. So like, so that tells you a short man's world of fashion. It's in Toronto because it fits. It's the best. It's all to me. It's all about

errors. Like I stopped listening to radio basically. So the only radio I'm a talk radio is CBC radio and there's no jingles on CBC radio. So it's like all my references are from the eighties and nineties. Basically. Yeah, because it fits. There's lots of people listening who will get that. Although the capital direct one I know because it's on TV, but I only watch live sports with ads. So it has to be capital direct is on CP 24, right? I think. Oh, for sure. Cause that's Dana's. That's gotta be there for day. Yes. Anyway, I don't remember what we were talking about, but fabric land is a great, we're talking about great jingles. That's why we're here today. Yes. Anyway, I don't remember what we were talking about. But Fabric Land is a great, we're talking about great jingles. That's why we're here today.

This isn't a tangent. This is the actual topic. Right. But shout out to seriously, he lives in Edmonton, Alberta. So we're wrapping up the Oilers and we're coming back to your trauma here. But the Oiler to put the bow on it is that put a fork in them, they're done. Proud Edmontonian, because he moved from Toronto to Edmonton many, many years ago. Alfie ZappaCosta. His oilers are done, but that pizza nova jingle will live forever in our hearts and our minds of 431-00-00-00-pizza nova. I'd sing it, but he would sue me.

Okay. So back to you, Tamara Cherry. Here we are now. Okay. So the trauma beat, a case for rethinking the business of bad news. Maybe tell it, give it this- Oh, I was telling you, I Oh yeah, while you're left. Right. Yeah.

That's the longest fucking answer to that question. Did they run you out of town? So anyway, I remember having a conversation. Did they fire you? That's the question. Yeah. So it's actually funny because you could say yes and no to that. But I remember talking to a homicide investigator saying, what am I going to do next? I don't want to go into PR and be like speaking for a company I don't believe in.

And he said to me, I remember exactly where we were standing, like a bay and whatever the street is just north of college and outside of police headquarters, outside my live track. He said, what about, what about doing PR for victims? And I was like, oh, that, yes. I mean, nobody's there for them. And this light bulb went on and that was, I thought about it for many years and not many years. I mean that was in 2016 and then I, or even 2015, I don't know, and then I went on mat leave again in November 2016 and I had a whole bunch of meetings and blah, blah, short, that wasn't really happening. And then when I was on Matt leave with my third, I get an email in 2019. In the spring of 2019, I get an email from a friend of mine at CTV saying, holy shit,

look at this. And because he knew that I had been wanting out even though I love my job. And it was basically saying that they are offering packages because there were like 12 journalists at CTV at the time and they were going to be replacing us with 12 video journalists. So it was basically Dana left at the same time as I did. Same way, same reasons. So basically it was an opportunity to leave but get severed. They wanted all of us journalists to become video journalists. And I went back and I already knew I wanted to leave, but I'm like, I'm going to give this a shot so at least I can get my severance. And I did the training on video

training. And honestly, so when I told them I was leaving, and this was, this kind of went down from what I understand, like CTV folklore, where I went in and I told them, thanks, no thanks. I'm not taking the VJ job. Give me my name, my money. I'm out of here. Show me the money. And it turned into like a two and a half hour conversation. They I'm trying to get me to stay and me giving them all the reasons why what they were doing was a really shitty thing for journalism and how me having to go Wait, wait, wait. Pick up communications, which is the public relations firm that you started that supports trauma survivors and the stakeholders who surround them. They were

trying to tell you that was bad for them. No, no, no, no, no. I hadn't told them that. No, I was telling them that making all of us video journalists was bad for journalism because when I'm in there trying, editing my stories and all this stuff, I'm not knocking on doors, I'm not having thoughtful conversations with survivors. When I was doing my video training, one of the last stories I did was going out and interviewing this trauma survivor,

her son had just been murdered, I think one or three months, or one month earlier, and I was interviewing her and I'm like, oh, just a second, I gotta do this and da, da, da, da, and I couldn't have that real connection and it was awful. And I said, see you later, you have people like, now I can say this and da da da. And I couldn't have that real connection. And it was awful. And I said, see you later. You have people like, now I can say this, Austin's gone. Austin Delaney is gonna be shooting his own stuff

and editing it. He's one of the most amazing writers and storytellers. Just give him a freaking camera person. And I think he did have one to the end, but it was just, they were just trying to do more and more with less. And I'm like, this is not the kind of journalism I want to be doing. And for you to focus on your craft and you're very good at it and to do it proper, to serve

it, give it the time it requires, you can't sort of like me, imagine how good a host I'd be if somebody were, you know, I had a VP of sales or something handling that part or whatever. Right. Can you imagine if I had a VP of sales? I feel the same way. Right. I do everything. Right. I'm a one woman show. People are like, you and I are not Bell Media. Like that's the difference. Bell Media. And again, which is a fabulous thing, which is a yeah. And I know how the budgets work. You can't take money

from the cable thing and throw it at TV, whatever. But if you go up higher in the chain and you're at BCE, Inc. or whatever, we're talking trillions. What's the word after trillions? Like we're talking because my kids would say, because zillions and zillions. So we're talking real money. So this whole idea, like we're going to cut some costs on the local news by making Tamara do her own video work and you got to do everything. Right. I, yeah, as a journalist, that is offensive.

Like because now you need to have all these other things you got to do that are not the detective work. And when you're going into a home of a person whose son was just murdered, and it's already intrusive enough when I'm going in there with a camera person, and I'm like, just, and I'm trying to explain to him, this is why he's setting up this light, and this is he's doing a white balance. Yeah, these are people who just experienced trauma. Exactly. And you're trying to be as invisible as possible. And when I'm there and I, and God forbid, I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry, we have to do this whole thing over again. Because I just realized I was recording you in blue. You know what broke my heart in your book? When I hear about, okay, so you're on the sidewalk. Let's say somebody's son was just, well, unnamed woman's son was just murdered brutally or whatever. And then maybe she's on the porch.

And I'm gonna just pick names I know, but let's say, although I don't know if anyone's left at Global News anymore, but let's say Global News is there. And this woman's telling the story of her son or whatever. And then it's like, okay, next in comes City TV, right? The Rogers company, right? And then waiting in the wings there is Tamara

who represents, you know, Bell Media or whatever. You're gonna come in and get the CTV and maybe CP24 uses it. I don't know what you guys do over there, but okay. The bottom line is- CP24, News Talk 1010, the CTV News Channel, CTV National. So essentially this poor mother

who just experienced the greatest trauma of her life, okay? And again, she has the right of course to shut her fucking door and say, I'm not talking to anybody. But nobody's telling her that except for maybe the homicide investigator. She doesn't know. She's at her most vulnerable. And again, she has the right of course to shut her fucking door and say, I'm not talking to anybody. Nobody's telling her that except for maybe the homicide investigator. She doesn't know. She's at her most vulnerable.

And one by one, again, you're as, you're human beings and you're as respectful as possible, but you have a job to do. You need footage for the six o'clock news and you want footage of the woman talking about her son. He was a good boy, whatever, whatever. To me, it's like, re, it's like retell that story over and over again. It's like, wow. Yeah. Like speak to that. Like there's gotta be a better way. Exactly. Did you just quote my book? I thought there has to be a better way. Yes. It was, it's all, and what you're describing is exactly how it happens. And

quite often how it happens is we actually go and knock on the door and they say, no, no, I'm sorry. We just know we can't. And then our, our desk tells us, just go back and try one more time. Can you just try again? They go back and they say, no, I'm sorry. And then they're like, just stick around in case they talk to someone else. So then you see city news go up and it's like, well, I got to go up and put my microphone in there in case they start talking.

One gets in there and it's like, you can't have this person on city TV and not on CTV news. And then it gets to the point, there's so many of us outside the door and we just say, if you just, and honestly we have the best of intentions. If I have this gravy mother on TV, then maybe somebody will call in a tip to Crimestoppers. We say these things to ourselves,

but really it's such bullshit. But how much of it is, yes, best of intentions. I'm not so sure about that because I think at the end of the day, somebody who's asking for all this is thinking about viewership. No, we're not. No, people in the field don't think about that shit. Some people do, but most... But no, not in the field. Somebody higher in the chain who's telling you go back and try again. See, people always think that like the gods of Bell Media are coming down and being like, do this, that doesn't happen. But yes, they, because in the news business,

we are like, you gotta get it first. You gotta, you know, get the best story, whatever. And it's just, we do things in a certain way because it's the way it's always been done. And a lot of times the people who are making these decisions in the office are not the people who have ever been knocking on that door ever. And I'm not just speaking about CTV,

I'm talking about like everywhere. And there's a real disconnect quite often between the people in the field who have the best hearts, mostly, not all. There's certain people that I wouldn't send my grieving loved ones to, but they care so much. And we are struggling, especially when you're a young reporter, you're so vulnerable, because remember how many contracts was I on in the span of less than a year and a half at the Star?

Four. Four. Such precarious work and they're telling you go try again, try again, try again and then you are celebrated when you're able to get that quote unquote scoop or whatever and it's just and so you tell yourself well this is people need to know and I do believe that people I want to create empathy I want. I wanted the mother in Rosedale to feel for the mother in Rexdale and to empathize. And so she could go to her MP or her local city council

and be like, what are you doing about gun violence in this city? I wanted that, but I was actually causing harm. And the research project that I did, I know we haven't talked about, we don't need to get totally into it. We can get into it now, but. So.

Because I do have questions. I launched my company, Pick Up Communications to be a PR firm that supports trauma survivors with the media. I was very fortunate to be launching my company right before a global pandemic. So all of the meetings, like my business model at the time was basically like, I'm, I want to be hired as a consultant because this is after consulting with many different people in law enforcement, victim services. This is how people told me I should do it. You need to be hired as a consultant by police services to support the survivors attached to their cases. So I had had all these meetings with these police services around the GTA, and then everything came to a halt because the pandemic happened. So then I said, okay, I'm going to check something off my long

list of things that I've wanted to do, which was something that an academic friend of mine had suggested, which was do a research project examining the impact of the media on trauma survivors so that I could take something and show, look, there's harm, there's a need for this. There's a huge gap in victim services. And it culminated in basically, it kept expanding, expanding. And at the end of the day, I, I surveyed or interviewed more than a hundred trauma survivors from across Canada and the United States, survivors of homicide, traffic fatality, sexual violence, mass violence. And I ended up, um, serving or interviewing,

uh, more than two dozen journalists from across Canada and the United States who covered trauma. And what I found was yes, not only is there a glaring gap in victim services, but the very, you know, basic things that I did as a crime reporter to tell the story were very often very harmful for the people that I was reporting on. And quite often, I think I was causing more harm than good and my very good intentions were not good enough. And not only that I was fucking up my own self in the process, which I didn't realize really at the time. I can reflect back and see how things were bubbling up, like something I talk about in my book. When I was researching my book, I went and I'm like, oh, I kept a diary at some

point. I went and I found it. And I found these entries from 2006 to 2007, 2008. So the beginning of my Toronto journalism career. And there were signs that shit was not right. Where I'm like, why like, Can I ask you some pointed questions about this? Okay. So, okay. So I'm curious, kind of an opening question, then some specifics here, by the way, on the live stream, they're telling me this Brown's jingo, jingle, jingle. Because it fits. Hamilton, apparently it's that's a Hamilton store, which was a store in Toronto because I've seen it unless I

was covering over I haven't been in there and somebody says it's now called Robbie Brown clothing but the someone T Hill say because he held him hair is wondering if it's a if it's in Hamilton but okay this is for some reason I feel like it was like on the down for oh and the twins in Vancouver who are both in the hockey hall of fame. So I'm sorry, I just tells you how much I love the Canucks. Sadeen twins. Oh, Matt Sundin. No, no, no, that's not a, but all from Sweden, of course, Sadeen twins, not the Sundin, the great Matt Sundin here. Okay. So goal scored by number 13, Matt Sundin. That's my FOTM Andy Frost here. So my question again, okay. So where I'm curious about the responsibility you have as a member of our news media, like

when slash where does this responsibility end? So you go to the porch, you talk to the woman who is distraught in trauma, as vulnerable as she'll ever be, talking about maybe her son was murdered, and now you got your footage, you thank her, you walk away, is that the end of your responsibility to marriage here? And when I say yours, I mean almost like the city, sorry, CTV News, Toronto, Bell Media. Is this what you're asking what I thought then

or what I think now? Well, tell me both then. I'm curious if it evolves. So back then, I mean, we would tell ourselves that like in our guts, we knew, I think most of us knew what we were doing is wrong because there was this chipping away of our soul that would happen every time we'd knock on their door again after they told us no and everything like that. And, but we would tell ourselves, well, we're not, we didn't cause this. This is just a shitty, this is one of the shitty parts of a shitty situation. We didn't fire that gun.

We didn't drive drunk. We weren't driving distracted. It wasn't us that caused this. It was the freaking murderer or the drunk driver or whatever. We are just part of that. So we're not adding to it. This is just, this is just it. This is part of the awful package.

So what responsibility did I have when I left? After that, I would say to get it right, to get the story right, to do a good job. But actually what I've learned now is so much more. Tell me about that because I feel like we, you'll speak to this. This is your expertise here. But there's two things going on here. There's the members of the media who are going to experience trauma covering such horrific acts of crime and violence in our city. Like that's inevitable. I'm wondering if there's support, like does Bell Media offer support to you for the shit you're going to see? Okay. I always ask this about people who had to cover like a very notorious serial killer, like Paul Bernardo type Charles and stuff and everything

like that. Okay. And again, I know I said the name of somebody, but that you have your rules. I might, okay. But that side of it, the people in the media need support when there's, they're covering such terrible acts of violence and crime. But what about the victims who, uh, who are re traumatized by the media, right? Because the, the, the? Because they gotta soak in their stories on a regular basis. And like you said, you're purposely not naming names for variety of reasons, you were well said there. But do we have sufficient support for these two? Hell no.

There's like no support. Victim services in this country is deplorable. There's not even, there's a homicide survivor that I've been supporting recently in Toronto. I hired by a nonprofit to support the survivor with the media. And this is someone who is struggling with basic, meeting basic needs after her son was murdered, like housing. You would think that, you know, because in Toronto you can call 311 and say, my neighbor

is not bringing in their green bin or whatever, raccoons again, my combo. Um, you'd think that there's a number that homicide survivors can call and be like, I cannot keep my head above water. I cannot pay the bills. I need to find a different place to live. There's not, there's not, there's nothing. We have victim services, which is totally insufficient. And I'm not slamming Toronto Police victim services

because they're mostly run by volunteers. And they're drowning in things like intimate partner violence cases and all these things, very important things. Doug Ford's government has taken away victim services, like funding everything. It is deplorable. There's nobody for a homicide survivor to call and be like, the media is knocking on my door, help.

So that's something I was trying to fill that void. Some homicide investigators are more helpful than others, but they're at the end of the day, they're investigating a homicide. They don't have time to help you write a statement. And you're not educated and trained in the practice. No, most trauma survivors, and this is something I found in my research, not surprisingly, perhaps most trauma survivors

have never had an interaction with the media prior to their traumatic loss. Despite this, the majority of them are contacted by members of the media in the immediate aftermath of their traumatic loss, which I defined as the first 72 hours. And the majority of them have negative first experiences with the media. And in fact, most of the homicide and traffic fatality survivors that I surveyed told me that the media actually contributed to their trauma. And many of them actually said the media had long-term, direct long-term negative impacts on them to the point that, you know,

decades later their self-esteem is still awful and all the, and they keep their heads down in public and people who really suffered under the crush of media attention. So what responsibility does the journalist have? We have a responsibility in the words of Toronto homicide survivor, Shauna Brown, whose son Demal Graham was murdered on, I shouldn't be doing this because I might get it wrong.

And I apologize Shauna, but I think it was July 23rd, 2017, her son was murdered. And in the words of her, if you're gonna come in and open this trauma lid and take all this hugely emotional stuff out of us, you have a responsibility to close that lid before you leave. Right. And we don't.

We were like, okay, thank you. And we are taking, I'm going to quote somebody else here now, Duncan McHugh, CBC journalist who's done amazing work on reporting on indigenous communities. I always quote him on this. He has this brilliant lesson, be a storyteller, not a story taker. We in the media take stories. Thank you. And we're so grateful. Thank you so much. I can't believe you spent this time. We're so grateful. Why are we grateful? Cause they're giving us something. What are we giving them? We're not giving them support. We're not even calling to check up on them hours later.

We're just because for me, I always felt like me reentering their lives would be harmful. Like they're going to see my number come up and their, their stress response is going to go up. And isn't that telling? Like if I was afraid that me calling them after the fact was going to go up. And isn't that telling? Like if I was afraid that me calling them after the fact was going to cause them harm, then I should have known that I was doing something wrong to begin with, but there's no follow-up and there's nobody there to support them from like the institutional level. So I like this podcast that I do, I'm here promoting this

podcast, Mike, not cause I'm making money. I don't make a penny out of most of the stuff that I do on this. It's cause I'm trying to affect institutional change where journalists need to change the way they're doing things. Homicide investigators need to victim services, the freaking government, the world. We need to have more empathy, but we need to take better care of trauma survivors. And my little piece in it is trying to support them with the media, which can be a hugely impactful thing for them when they are forced to suffer on the public stage. So it's up to you. Like I'm listening and I'm thinking because we apparently are doing a shitty job when

it comes to victim services and you're talking about a time when we should be investing more in this. It sounds like the current government, the progressive conservative government in this province is slashing. And I don't want to just put this on Doug Ford. He's traditionally, historically, we've done a deplorable job taking care of victims in this country at every level of government. But the buck stops there.

I mean, if it's, if he's, if he's taking, uh, you know, cutting, I use terrible choice of words there, but if he's reducing the spend on such services, the buck stops there. Right. So, you know, literally, right. Right. Yeah, literally. Right. See how good I am at this, Tamara. Tell everyone at 1010 what's going on over here. Okay.

But shout out to John Moore, a future FOTM, but sadly it'll be an exit interview, but. Oh no, no. Hopefully not for 60 years. Yes. You know, not for 60 years. John Moore will hopefully be one of those guys that leaves on his own.

Well, he's very good. He's very good. On his own progression. Yeah, and he's doing very well over there I understand and I like them very much Yeah, I like them very much here But just so I could recap the things that you personally are doing but it's wild that it's all on your shoulders here My goodness gracious Tamara There's three things going on that I can follow one is you have a podcast called the trauma beat And someone right now could pause this podcast and subscribe to The Trauma Beat.

So these are ongoing, right? You're on season what? Season two. Season two. It's basically people- Can I ask you, what the fuck are seasons in podcast world? That's the funny, Jim Richards asked me that last night. Well, he's right.

Jim is right. What's up with the season? So you know why I do it? It's because I don't have time to do this shit and I just do it because I'm like, somebody needs to hear this conversation. And so I just get like, you know, 10 or 11 episodes together and I package them all up and I get all the social media content out. And then I just sort of like automate it and push it out because I don't actually have time to be doing this.

So yesterday, Donovan Bailey is over here and we're recording running drop. Yeah. Well, I'm running to think specifically Donovan Bailey running things and it's fantastic. It actually does very well on YouTube, but that's a whole nother story, but it's a great podcast. And we're on season four, okay? And I'm like a hired gun, like whatever you want Mr. Bailey, it's your show, but I just don't believe in it.

Like I just, there's no seasons. I just can't commit to it, that's why. It's like when I did season one of the Trauma Bee podcast, I thought that would be it. But Tamera, you just drop when you are inspired to, I know, to, to, I know, I know, but I just don't have time. I prefer to just have it all done so that I can focus on other things. Okay. Well, I wish that I had time that I would love to do. I just, no, I'm not even, I'm not criticizing the frequency of your release. It's more like, I know,

but I feel like then I'm, people are expecting that eventually I'll put another one out, but I need to like a finality. And then if I come back, I come back. If I don't, I don't. Okay. Fair that eventually I'll put another one out. But I need like a finality. And then if I come back, I come back. If I don't, I don't. Okay, fair enough. So it's your show. Who am I to backseat drive? No, you're an expert.

I don't know anything about podcasts. I don't know what the hell I'm doing. There's a lot of things in the podcasting world that people do that I just fundamentally disagree with. I just don't know how to podcast. And you know what I don't like, Tamara? Your show may be a little different, but I don't like it when somebody has a long, this is a long form conversation you and I are having.

And that's what I do too. But I don't like it when, and it happens all over the place. This will be recorded, but this will be released in September. I'm guilty of that just because I wait until I have enough episodes and I put it. Put that on the list of things I don't believe in. But it's like timeless things. Okay, but nothing's timeless. We literally talked about getting four. You're a podcaster.

I am not a podcaster. But we, you know, oh, they're talking about the game four of the Oilers versus Panthers. I dabble in podcasting, just like I am not a TV reporter. I'm still a newspaper reporter, even though I spent most of my career in television. Well, you're wrong, Tamara, I got news for you. Okay, so you've got the television. Well, you're wrong. Tamera, I got news for you. Okay.

So you've got the podcast. Yes. You've got the book. How can somebody get their mitts on this book right now? And I'm going to give the full title. It's called The Trauma Beat, a case for rethinking the business of bad news. You can come into Toronto Mike's basement. I'll give you your carpet that I bought for you before I forget.

Come to TMLX15 on June 27. And then I have a gift for you after you give me this gift. You're so sweet. I've already given you a lot of gifts. But you can get it wherever you get I forget. Come to TMLX 15 on June 27, and then I have a gift for you after you give me this gift. You're so sweet. I've already given you a lot of gifts. But you can get it wherever you get your books, and if your book story doesn't carry it, be like, why aren't you carrying the trauma beat? Everybody, I have the trauma beat in my hands,

because I had a PDF, and now I have it. I have something else for you. And now guess what? Point of sign, it says, Mike, you're my favorite podcaster. These are my favorite five cent candies, and I brought them to you for your birthday. They look Scandinavian. They are from Ikea.

Okay, that is Swedish. And they are the best. Shed her to the Sidon twins. Yes, they're the best. Sidene, I can't even say their name. I never liked the Sidene twins because I don't care for the Canucks at all. At least with what I like about the Oilers.

And I used to like the Oilers in the eighties when Gretzky and Messier and Curry and Paul Coffee. I loved those Oilers teams because our leaps sucked and they were so fun to watch. You're talking to me like I know anything about sports. But I will just say- The thing I know about the Vancouver Connects is my friend Joe Conner loves them.

By the way, my wife, 11 years, married tomorrow. It's our anniversary tomorrow. Oh, congratulations. But we watched all these Edmonton playoff games. And what I will say is there is no player on the planet who skates like Conner McDavid. Like this is literally a- I've heard that.

Forget generational. You know, I can't think. I mean, shout out to Mike Gardner. There's nobody I've seen. You can skate like, uh, that man. So my brother often talks about him. He's unbelievable. I couldn't tell you what Connor McDavid looks like. Ask me how many goals Connor McDavid has scored in the Stanley cup finals. Zero. Although we had, I saw that after I went to bed last night, he had a couple of nice assists. Okay. So let me thank you for that, the trauma. So you have the book, you have the podcast. The one more thing we have talked about in great length, but if somebody is a victim and wants to

speak to you in your guise of pickup communications, which is the public relations firm that you started that supports trauma survivors and the stakeholders who surround them. How can somebody reach out to you in that guise? So the first thing I would say is if you're working with a nonprofit or police agency, encourage them to hire me to support you. But that probably won't happen. So you can be like one of them.

You speak a little Portuguese. Let's put it out there. Um pouquinho. Okay, because that's going to tie into the gift I'm about to give you. So oh cool. And you do speak a little Portuguese, there's only one of you. There's only one of me and there's a big mortgage and- And children. And of podcasts that I do and like millions of kids in my house.

And, but yeah, I do a lot of pro bono work and they can find me at pickupcommunications.com. I'll also say that I've got some resources on there for trauma survivors who are, who have questions about the media. And I've got a lot of resources on there for journalists storytellers who are looking to do these very important stories. And again I feel like we didn't quite I feel like actually like I need hours more

with you to be honest because it kind of fascinating but the we talked we joked about is there still a chorus well I think there's still a chorus for at least for a bit time our time so there's chorus there's which owns global news and then we have we have Rogers and we have Bell of course there is the mother core CBC I'm sure there's others but these are the big television ones that pop in my head right away. Bottom line is what should they be doing for people like you on the front lines for the Austin Delaney's the Steve Ryan's the Tamara cherries now only Steve they're still there I guess of those but I'm thinking like we don't so peer support networks all this stuff

obviously unlimited therapy encourage people to do it limit trauma exposures don't send the guy who just shot the car crash to the funeral the next day and then to another car crash and all these like all those things which the reason I sort of stream over them is because there are people out there who are doing a great job advocating for these things people like Dave Seglen's at CBC who is their self-proclaimed well-being champion trying to- But will there be a CBC after the next election? Who knows? Yeah will Dave Seglen's salary be paid to be taken care of all these journalists across the country? Who freaking knows? I hope will Dave Saglin's salary be paid to be taking care of all these journalists across the country?

Who freaking knows? I hope so. Anyway, the reason I sort of like gloss over that is because the thing that newsrooms across around the world are missing as they all start to dabble in, we care about journalists' wellbeing, hooray for you, good for you for finally catching onto that.

The thing they're all missing is you cannot adequately take care of yourself unless you take care of the people you're reporting on. So train your people in trauma-informed journalism because Mike, I've said this a million times and it is true. So I used, I think, $400 worth of like therapy benefits when I was at CTV. And because I just there,, it was not just like any newsroom in the city at the time, it was not a newsroom that promoted self care on a regular

basis. And there's going to be people there that are like, yes, we did. We sent out an email after the Toronto van attacked reminding you of our EAP. Yeah. But there's nothing for like the daily news grind and that mother that I'm interviewing on a daily

basis. But what I will say is, um, you need to teach your But there's nothing for like the daily news grind and that mother that I'm interviewing on a daily basis But what I will say is um You need to teach your people how to take care of the people they're reporting on because I spent a lot more money on therapy Now out of my own pocket when I don't have benefits Dealing with moral injury suffered from the job than I have on vicarious trauma for which I spent a lot of money as well Because you got to you got to carry that briefcase, if you will, for the rest of your life. And good on you though, for speaking to somebody about it and learning, you know, how to manage and cope with it.

I'm on the therapy, I'm on the drugs. Okay, good on you. So encourage people to speak to a therapist and ensure that they have, that these organizations are paying for this therapy. And take no for this therapy. And take no for an answer. If your journalist says the family's not talking,

I say, okay, thank you. And how are you doing? Did they slam the door in your face? Did somebody try to hit you? Did they tell you you're a piece of shit? Did you, I always think, did you see a body part on the ground? Yes.

Like, you know what I mean? Especially the videographers out there, the stuff that they see. Did you see a person dying today? Oh my God, you were at that scene where that guy literally was, he died in front of you. Are you okay? Do you need to take some time? Are you talking to somebody? My door is open. Look at, I'm tracking your company vehicle, your GPS says, I know you just left that scene, but there's another thing that just happened two blocks away. There's sound of gunshots and

there's like a kid on the ground. Can you go over there? Like this is our bar business. As a complete outsider who didn't know what GA meant, I find all this quite fascinating. Now you're an FOTM, FOTM, FOTM friend of Toronto. You've earned. So you've got the lasagna, you've got the beer, you've got the book about Toronto Maple Leafs baseball.

You now have a, yeah, that, that business card has a QR code. If you scan it, you will subscribe to season six. Oh, cool. Oh, you'll subscribe to, yes. So I just made fun. I just realized I did a whole diatribe against seasons. Meanwhile. Yeah, what, season six? What?

But I don't produce that show, okay? But I asked you earlier if you speak Portuguese, because El Grego, who hosts that show, he speaks Portuguese. El Brasilero? And his birthday was yesterday he speaks Portuguese. Elie Brasileiro? His birthday was yesterday. Where is he from? He's of Portuguese descent.

So it's a little bit different. They like to say Voces whereas in Sao Paulo where my husband's from it's Voces. I like Southern Brazil Portuguese. Okay. Sort of like Quebec French versus Paris French. I understand. Okay. So you have a wireless speaker from Monaris to subscribe to Yes We Are Open.

So you can listen to season six because sometimes seasons make sense. And Al Gregor is, just had a birthday yesterday. So happy birthday Al Gregor. Everybody subscribe to Yes We Are Open. How to mains. Recycle my electronics Tamara. I'm sure that you're in your home in Regina and you have all this gear that you've been using over the years for recording and some of it may be broken or obsolete or, you know, just, yeah, just needs to be thrown out.

Don't put it in the garbage because then those chemicals end up in our landfill. Go to recyclemyelectronics.ca, put in your postal code and they'll tell you where to go where you can get properly recycled so that stuff doesn't end up in our landfill. So thank you, Recycle My Electronics. Thank you, Minaris. Thank you, Tamara. How was this? I think- Great. I'm surprised we didn't talk more about Ridley Funeral Homes considering the topics that we were discussing. Well, I try to be respectful so I feel like sometimes I need to not do that because it's not always- Oh, the tape! Right. I'm sorry.

I've okayed. I wonder why do they give measuring tape? Why? Is this for measuring caskets? I asked Brett. It's essentially something that should make your life better. Right? So while you're living...

I actually love these kinds of measuring tapes. I don't know if people can hear the click, click, click. I find so satisfying. I can hear that. Well, you can do that like 24 seven because now you have your own really cool measuring tape. This is going to be my fidget as I drive around the GTA today. So as you drive around the GTA today and you were kind of clear.

So basically CTV Toronto says to you, we want to package you out because we want, unless you want to become like a video slash. They didn't want to package me out. They're like, please stay. OK, so they said, don't don't go anywhere. You're one of the good ones. But I said, hell no, I'm out of here. And then I went to H.R. and I said, so is there going to be like an exit entry? And they said, we don't really do. You're one of the good ones. But I said, hell no, I'm out of here. And then I went to HR and I said,

so is there gonna be like an exit interview? And they said, we don't really do that for this kind of thing. I'm like, cause I just had a two and a half hour conversation with these people and HR was supposed to be there and they weren't, don't you wanna know why somebody who you really want working here is leaving? And they didn't wanna know.

So I hope it's different now. That's fucking awful to hear that too, because how the hell you retain good people if you don't listen to their gripes on the way out as to why they're leaving. And I shouldn't be talking about this stuff. You don't work for bell media. Yeah. Well, it's funny, but I'm on news.

10 10 every week. Who? No, it's but, but I do work for them when I do fill in hosting. Not anymore. Right. When you do your round table, they don't even give you a palma pasta lasagna. I know, but they give you way more stuff. book. You got way more stuff for visiting me. I think I'm gonna be checking a bag

when I go back to Regina. Hello? Is that lasagna coming home again? I'm gonna give it to my sister-in-law and brother-in-law, who's I'm staying with. Okay, good. Don't leave without it. How was this?

I'm curious, because you tweeted something about being very excited for this. But then when I saw the tweet, I said, I don't wanna disappoint Tamara. No, it was, oh, I don't want to disappoint Tamara. Like I can only be myself and do my thing. I love long form conversations. So yesterday, I, yesterday morning, I did a pre-tape segment with CTV, your morning,

Bella Media, which I'm so grateful for. I had a great conversation with Anne Marie there and- Merwike. Yep. And I, but it's, this is so quick. It's like, you're just trying to get everything out. All the important points. How much time did they give you on that?

I actually, that one actually felt longer than usual. It was probably like five minutes or six minutes, but it's usually like four minutes for a morning show. And then, you know, last night I did Jim Richards. I got, we did two segments, which is like 20 minutes of talking. Okay, Jim's got more time. But there's still so, as you can tell, Mike,

I could talk for days on this stuff. And so I, so I always appreciate this. Can I tell you why this exists exists because I got tired of seeing somebody like Tamara Cherry on CTV your morning and hearing her for five to seven minutes and like in that and then that was like a highlight, you know, headline stuff, a great platform and I'm so grateful for it. But this is I appreciate people who appreciate thoughtful conversations. And I think in the world we live in right now, there's no room for thoughtful conversations. You're either on this side of a topic or this side of a topic. And you are bound to offend somebody if you ask a question about something. And so the opportunity

to sit and actually talk about important stuff is very appreciated by me. So thank you. And I appreciate you dropping by because you're not in town very long, right? When do you leave? Sunday morning. Yeah, Sunday morning. I'm singing Creed for goodness sake. So my goodness, I'll fix that in post to Maroon 5. Wow, I haven't heard that band name for a long time.

Well, when you said Sunday morning, there's so many, you know, you can do Velvet Underground. You could do No Doubt has a great song. Oh, love No Doubt. I'm trying to get my daughter into it. Yes. Oh, and Maroon 5. Isn't there one like, Sunday morning, rain is falling. Possibly. I don't listen to Maroon 5. I'm more of a Creed man. Apparently. Come on. My goodness gracious. Okay. Shout out to Nickelback from Alberta. So all the Prairie people.

Yeah. Nickelback's from Alberta. They're nice. Come on. Everybody knows that, Tamara. Come on. Don't you know what GTA stands for? I know Gainer the Gopher in Saskatchewan. GTHA? I know that. That I don't know. So you're educating me again. GTHA? Greater Toronto Hamilton? Oh yeah, that I know. I thought you were talking about some gopher. Oh Gainer the Gopher is the mascot for the Saskatchewan Rough Riders. Get with the program! No, come on. I'm a... Anyways, we'll talk about that another episode.

You're not an Argos fan because anytime I went to an Argos and Rough Riders game, there was more green there than there was blue. But I root for the Argos. I like that they exist and I root for them. Really? Just like the idea of them? I did one, Mike Hogan's an FOTM, he's involved there. And I actually wanted to do like hype up Argos on this very program.

And I had an idea and I thought it would involve me getting like a press pass to a 10 games and then talk about it on the show and that you're missing out on this value. And then, you know, I fielded this idea because I knew Argos needed some love in this market and I wanted to give it to them. And I wasn't asking for money. I just thought you could send me to the game or whatever. And then a guy from sales called me back to follow up and then it was a sales call. And then I said, oh, okay. And then that was the end of that. Okay. But much love to Tamara Cherry. You're now an FOTM. And I love this very much.

And that brings us to the end of our 1,506th show. You can follow me all over the place. Just go to torontomic.com, but I'm on Twitter as Toronto Mike and Blue Sky as Toronto Mike. You'll find me. Tamara, just send them somewhere where they could learn more about you.

Easiest place, pickupcommunications.com. Speaking of Alberta, it's called Pickup Communications. Okay. Not why. Because there's pickup trucks. Everyone's got a pickup truck. No, it's because that's what you call a pickup is when you're going to get the picture of the dead kid that was killed yesterday coming up in Journal and Tamara, go get the pickup. That's why it's called it. Fun fact. Okay. So no shout out to Dodge Ram and the great John Gallagher.

Okay much love to all who made this possible. That's Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, Recycle My Electronics.ca, the Toronto Maple Leafs baseball team, Monaris and Ridley Funeral Home. See you all Sunday morning. See it's all coming back to Sunday morning because on Sunday morning I'm dropping a special Father's Day episode of Toronto Mic'd. Don't you dare miss it. Father's Day episode, Sunday morning. You might need some tissues. Happy Father's Day, Mike. Thank you very much and thank you for the Trauma Beat. See you all Sunday. It's just like mine, it won't go away Cause everything is rosy and green Well I've kissed you in France and I've kissed you in Spain

And I've kissed you in places I better not name And I've seen the sun go down on Shak'likur But I like it much better going down on you